Fall of Rome

[fickle zephyr]

Fabled, but chaos

[kindred magnet]

Bootlegger rules are kinda Lorics now.

[true slate]

I would classify it as a Loric since it “complicates things” rather than helping smooth things.

It’s also a necessary part of the script though. Without it some things wouldn’t work.

Our lord and savior @umbral hatch will have to decide I guess lol

[tulip igloo]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like the only purpose for “I am Spartacus” is a balancing tool to prevent too many players from claiming Spartacus. People can still publicly claim whatever they want even if this wasn’t in play.

[neon hawk]

Oh yeah Loric

It sounds fun..

[copper crescent]

I think a decent way to check is this Fabled is Loric is "Can you slap this into a game of Trouble Brewing to make it spicier?" (ignore any balance questions)

I don't think "I Am Spartacus" achieves that, so leaning toward Fabled.

[umbral hatch]

https://tenor.com/view/sweats-gif-25346666

Keep it as is. Fabled 👍

[lean mango]

Another day Rome saved by good

[neon hawk]

I had a United Nations Event and the country I got was Greece.. oh the urge I have to be literally one of the characters from Fall of Rome.. but instead I became a statue..

I wanted to be Julius Caesar..

[dark rose]

(Now’s probably a good time to say that Rome isn’t in Greece)

[worldly goblet]

😭

I mean Rome owned Greece for a bit so close enough

[dark rose]

Fall of… uh… Athens??????????

[cerulean panther]

fall of troy!

evil team is like agamemnon + odysseus + ajax + achilles or whatever, good team has like priam + hector + aeneas and co.

ignore the fact that most scholars think that troy is actually in modern-day Turkey and not Greece

[neon hawk]

I'll be honest.

I am Spartacus don't feel like a good Loric to add in classic

It fits more to this, the hb more than it fits the classic botc characters, so I'm not into the "Make it to a Loric"

[ocean dust]

yeah its definitely a fabled

its required for FoR to function

[dark rose]

(And also gold sword go brrrr)

[neon hawk]

Gold sword go brrrrrrrr deed

[tulip igloo]

Is it though? I assume it came about through playtesting, but I’m curious how the game plays without it where any number of people can claim Spartacus

[fickle zephyr]

Then the optimal play is for all to claim Spartacus, regardless of whether it’s in-play or not

[kind drift]

Not neccecarily due to centurion, trumpeter & crassus

[tulip igloo]

Why would that be optimal? I imagine Trumpeter wouldn’t be too happy about that

[kind drift]

Also, even if fall of rome works without it the fabled is still solving an issue with the script

[tulip igloo]

The claiming issue or something else?

[kind drift]

Claiming (though you could argue that you cannot claim to be spartacus otherwise. (As claim isn't defined outside of this.))

[fickle zephyr]

Claiming =/= madness

[tulip igloo]

But people can say whatever they want, so I don’t think the Fabled is explicitly what gives permission to people to do that. I think it’s more so just what allows the ST to not accept claims after a certain limit

[languid jetty]

... goblin?

[winged otter]

Goblin defines what it means to claim Goblin. I Am Spartacus defines what it means to claim Spartacus. Without one, “claim” isn’t defined for any given character. It can be extrapolated, sure, but not defined

[tulip igloo]

Is the way that Goblin is defined any different than Crassus, Trumpeter, Centurion, etc?

[eager hazel]

I think the rome fell

[lyric trench]

rome has fallen

billions must moriē

[sour shell]

The new script tool providing homebrew compatibility means we have a slightly prettier print-friendly script for anyone who needs it 🙂

The "other nights" night order sheet doesn't quite fit on one page... but no big problem.

[neon hawk]

AYYYYY

[feral rose]

Hey there! I was interested in getting the PNP for the tokens for FoR. Can someone show me where to look?

[kindred magnet]

While Alex may send these to you directly, you can also download them via JSON from one of the published versions out there.

[feral rose]

I have the JSON for FoR. Do you have a tool you recommend to generate tokens?

[kindred magnet]

I do not

[tacit marlin]

#diy-build-a-grimoire could help

[lean mango]

Just dm the Author

He will send you the file (he is a good guy) ... but the how, you can found it #diy-build-a-grimoire

[sour shell]

I made a Teensy subset of Fall of Rome, this is version 1. Only two test games so far. Comments and thoughts appreciated!

Ultimately teensies can be quite swingy and random anyway, but if it can be balanced somewhat that would be great.

I tried to keep as many of the 'public' roles that are FoR classics. Standard Bearer and Trumpeter had to be on there (general public claims and making Spartacus relevant), and Legionary was also a shoe-in.

Centurion is another way to keep Spartacus relevant. Actor is another public claim role, likely more similar to Juggler than normal due to the short length of Teensies. Vestal Virgin felt like it had the least complications of what remained.

Demon choice was simple – Crassus interacts with Spartacus claims, is simple mechanically and has no balance issues at small numbers.

Spartacus and Bad Omen are the classics and seemed obvious. Winemaker in particular felt far too crippling in a Teensy; much like No Dashii except at least you can build around the squid.

Minions are the complicated part...

Glykon is the easiest to include without issue. It's strong but not broken. Augur is similar but swingier.

Haruspex continues the theme of making Spartacus relevant, but breaks the 5-player game a bit because town only gets one execution if they kill the wrong person day 1, and adding Spartacus into a 5-player game is a massive boost for Evil even forgetting the rest of the ability quite frankly.

Extra Evils are generally a bad idea in teensies, with Goon being one of the few exceptions you see because it can flip back. On the other hand, there is only one execution in a teensy to get a Temptress turn, and there's a fair chance you pick your Demon as one of the picks, so maybe it would work. At 5 players it's no more a game end than executing the wrong person in a Haruspex game...

Augur would be fine alone, but I worry that having Glykon and Augur on the script together is a bit much. Although only one can be in play, I think the combo would make world-building incredibly hard, with little time to unravel the possibilities. Also with such a small town, it might discourage people from nominating which neuters Standard Bearer a bit.

Ultimately in version 1 I chose Haruspex because without it Spartacus has no reason to claim Spartacus, and that felt wrong!

However, I think swapping Haruspex out would make it more playable at 5. Thoughts?

(Re the name, I understand Crassus was governor of Roman Syria, the capital of which was Antioch. I was imagining "Fall of Alexandria" with Cleo, "Fall of Carthage" with Hannibal, and "Fall of Ravenna" for Caesar, when I was first brainstorming.)

[halcyon cave]

Spartacus (and Damsel) is suuuper evil sided

[sour shell]

I don’t disagree. I feel like all Outsiders on Fall of Rome save Bad Omen are particularly bad in a Teensy size game. Ultimately I’m trying to fashion a workable subset of something designed to work as a full script, and it may not be workable.

But do you have a suggestion for modification?

[halcyon cave]

probably twins

[sour shell]

I would agree The Twins are probably less detrimental than the Winemaker.

Ok, so which minion do we sub-in for Haruspex (a necessary consequence), Temptress or Augur?

[winged otter]

Probably Augur

[tawdry thorn]

Definitely not temptress as they could just choose their guaranteed Crassus and a good player for a silent conversion every time 😳

[winged otter]

Guaranteed Crassus? They wouldn't know their team

[fickle zephyr]

Yep it’s Teensy so Demons and Minions get Poppygrowed and have no bluffs

[sour shell]

Yeah, this and there being only two executions in a game (the second one ending it) is the only reason I am considering Temptress in the slightest. But Augur is probably still the right shout.

[dreamy hawk]

How is a lone legionary good?

[keen robin]

it's essentially like Oracle, except Temptress and Hannibal (and potentially other characters, I forget) can mess with the info

(I guess Bad Omen, Glycon, and Augur also do)

[kindred magnet]

And a Physician can protect them.

[hexed leaf]

Where can I find the Print and Play Resources for Fall of Rome?

[kindred magnet]

Ask Alex S. for them.

[tacit marlin]

Is there a UK friendly json out there? i.e. without Imgur links.

[kindred magnet]

You are welcome to use mine. https://www.graypockets.com/Fall_of_Rome.json

[tacit marlin]

Thank you :)

[crystal heart]

Gave +1 Thanks to @kindred magnet (current: #1711 - 8)

[deft ore]

The sculptor ability seems like it conflicts with night text in all the json files I've found. Is it supposed to be 'If the player with the SCULPTURE token nominated today.' like each json seems to have or just their most recent nomination, even if from a previous day like the almanac's first example says. especially given the night text says to remove the token after informing them which should mean it couldn't do what the example says in the first place

See https://www.bloodstar.xyz/p/AlexS/Fall_of_Rome/script.json

Feels like it is intended to only be from the previous day but the ability text and first example reads more that it would be from any nomination the sculpture has previously made (just whichever was most recent) even if they are dead or unable to nominate more

[final rock]

RAW, what happens if a Glykon nominates a good player and then that good player tries to guess Spartacus? Would the evil team's Spartacus guess be used up?

[kindred magnet]

I believe so. Of course, they wouldn't know when it happens. If they guess correctly though, they lose.

[lament pilot]

Notably if they are a bad omen you can register them as good so they don't.

Hmmm I'm wondering, if Spartacus claimed Spartacus that day, could you register them as a townsfolk to the glycon reversed good player so the guess isn't used?

[kindred magnet]

Seems legit.

[winged otter]

No. They still register as having the Spartacus ability, just not being the Spartacus

[final rock]

A Bad Omen or Hannibal who believes they are the Blacksmith can be shown a not-in-play character token
Any reason why this states a not-in-play token? Isn't it more interesting if they could be shown an in-play character?

[kindred magnet]

Shouldn't the Bad Omen always be shown an in-play character? They must receive false information.

Hannibal can be shown anything, right? Their information is arbitrary.

Man. Your quote is from the Almanac. It feels inconsistent.

Does it still count as false information because the Bad Omen didn't actually gain the ability? That's not how the Vortox/Pixie ability usually works atm.

Vortox/Alchemist is more controversial.

[winged otter]

Because it isn't information, it's an ability. Pixie is explicitly "You start knowing" which is information

[kindred magnet]

That is the Vortox / Alchemist battle come forth. 😂

I will of course argue that learning an "out-of-play" ability when you gain it is a form of information.

Same ol' argument.

Of course, Alex has an Almanac entry, so that's RAW.~

Even if the ability fake-gained is not information, it would be arbitrary, so it didn't need to specify.

Perhaps the "out-of-play" is due to component limitations. Not many people have duplicate Fall of Rome character tokens printed.

While you could show any character, it's easier to remember if you put the "extra" blacksmith ability on top of the other tokens.

[umbral hatch]

It’s from their most recent nomination. So the Sculptor can continue to gather information if their Sculpture is dead or does not nominate today (but previously has).

[sharp marlin]

@umbral hatch Could I please get the 1.9 print and play. Thank you

[crystal heart]

Gave +1 Thanks to @umbral hatch (current: #858 - 50)

[gentle acorn]

When a townsfolk becomes evil from temptress effect, i know they are still a townsfolk role, and probably don't learn who the evil players are, but should they even be told by the ST that they are evil?

Also, I'm trying to print out the token images but when I do, they come out less than 1 inch diameter instead of 2. Any advice on how to fix that?

[kindred magnet]

Yes

[winged otter]

Except for the evil Hannibal(s), players always know their own alignment on Fall of Rome

[gentle acorn]

Oh ok, thats good to know

Tnx

It just sounds counter-productive for that person because they now know they are evil, but because they have no idea who their evil teammates are, they can't interact with them or help them directly

[tacit marlin]

The Temptress chose them and also know if they become evil. Therefore can just talk to them.

[gentle acorn]

Oh, you right

Im sure a lot of my questions will answer themselves when i start playing and ST this script, which will hopefully be this friday

So far ive been reading and researching everything about the script but its just theoretical until ive played it

Im super hyped tho

[gentle acorn]

Ah, this is where the ST telling them they are evil makes sense

[kindred magnet]

My best tips for a first time, really take your time at night on the script, especially the first time you run it

also take your time to put down the Spartacus's one at a time, ask your players to slow down or repeat themselves in order if need be.

lots of things happen on nominations on this script, so after every time someone nominates someone, before they talk, stop to look inside your grim and check for abilities .

feel free to warn your players about all this ahead of time, so that they know what to expect

lastly, be careful when you show information to a Bad Omen, they must have false (like Vortox) information.

Backwards for Physician targets. (like Barista).

I hope it goes well! I screwed up my first game, so don't feel bad if you miss something. It really is a different flavor.

I make lots of Homebrew scripts, but I don't think I will ever make a nomination-based one. Rather just run the GOAT.

[gentle acorn]

Tnx, i appreciate the advices! Did you at least enjoy running/playing this script? Also for the spartacus claims, Ive been wondering how to keep track of them, and specifically, if lots of people start all claiming at the same time, how do i decide who goes in which order, cuz i can only do half the player claims? I will def try to take my time at night, but i also dont wanna make people wait 10 minutes a night.

[kindred magnet]

The players will often remember the order. Feel free to ask them.

I love the script a lot.

[gentle acorn]

Will they? Idk why i doubt that a bit but ig it depends on the players

[winged otter]

If too many say at once, then tell them to speak again one at a time. As for tracking them, there are reminder tokens for tracking it (you can even put it in town square if you want, just clean it up come morning)

[gentle acorn]

The thing that worries me is that the group i play with (in person) usually has a few new people, sometimes several, and if theres more than a few new people next time we play, i dont think it would be a good idea to do fall of rome as their first game

[gentle acorn]

Good idea, I'll tell them to claim one at a time until i get half the claims

[kindred magnet]

Ask them their experience. Trouble Brewing is always there if you need it

Players familiar with other social deductions or regular gamess in general can try something harder.

[gentle acorn]

Yeah we do TB when theres new ppl usually

Tho we rly wanted to play BMR 2 weeks ago and threw 1 new guy in, raw lmao

[kindred magnet]

Honestly FoR isn't much worse than SnV. People freak out because they aren't used to it if they've played a lot of customs.

Like BMR, it's a different game feel than TB/SnV

[gentle acorn]

I myself am new to this whole genre, havent played wolf or mafia, unknowingly invited a whole clocktower group to my party 2 months ago and havent stopped playing since

[gentle acorn]

That explains why i like FoR so much without even playing it, i liked SnV even tho ive played it once or twice and barely know it

[gentle acorn]

Can anyone send me or post a night order sheet and any cheat sheets for FoR script? Anything helps!

[kindred magnet]

Did you check the Channel Pins? #1030804651085402142 message

[gentle acorn]

I did but I didn't notice it had the cheat sheets as well. Thank you!

[crystal heart]

Gave +1 Thanks to @kindred magnet (current: #1599 - 10)

[gentle acorn]

Is there ready to print token images with text anywhere here? The pins have tokens only with the role name

[kindred magnet]

You must ask @umbral hatch

[gentle acorn]

Gotcha, tnx

Is he online often?

[kindred magnet]

Just send him a poke. I do not speak for him.

[gentle acorn]

Can anyone else dm me the token images with texts if you have them? I've messaged alex but he hasn't responded and never seems to be online

Edit: the maker has provided me with the ingredients!

[sharp marlin]

Me to please, im wanting to make some tokens to

[gentle acorn]

I'll be group live play session tomorrow and im super excited cuz we'll have enough people for this script but also half the people will be new players.
Will it be enough to do 1-2 games of TB and then try FoR with the newbies?

[dark rose]

i mean

i'd strongly advise against it

and that's not bc of the half-baked soggy adage that "homebrew is complicated as a whole"

it's bc FoR is one of the most power-crept scripts out there (not that that's a bad thing)

i'd suggest looking at S&V in particular before venturing out into FoR

there's also the point that you'll be making the new players learn another set of 25 brand new characters

some people might not get to grips with the flow of the game before you rack for a 3rd

with that said, however

you know your group the best

if you're confident in their abilities to keep up, then by all means go ahead

Steven's mentioned in a tumblr post that he's had new players jump into the expansion scripts before without too much friction

[drifting escarp]

I'm hoping to run FoR for a group soon, but I don't have custom tokens for it
Does anyone know if there exists a list of official characters that can swap out? Back before carosel, my group had little markers next to the experimental characters which showed which was which (draw no dashii -> leviathan for example)
If not I'll probably try to make one

[gentle acorn]

I appreciate your advice!

But what do you mean exactly by most power crept?

[gentle acorn]

Imo it would be extremely hard and not worth it to swap out characters with official ones because a lot of these are very custom and one-of-a-kind. You can Dm alex, the guy who created them and he can send you the token images he has with text, or you can download the tokens without text from the media posted in this chat.

[drifting escarp]

oh, i meant like, next to sparticus on the script is the word "damsel" and whoever draws the damsel from the bag knows they're sparticus
that is my bad i wrote the message very poorly

it wouldn't be hard to do myself i figured i'd at least check if anyone had done similar work so i could be lazy

[gentle acorn]

Aren't you trying to replace the whole script of FoR with any other characters so it would function the same? By replace i mean swap out since you don't have the tokens)

[drifting escarp]

no, just use the actual physical tokens in the grim and for handing out
love the script, I want to use it, i just dont have the tools to make my own custom tokens

like if a player draws village idiot they see the script and think "ah im the legionare"

[drifting escarp]

made this if anyone else wants it or has feedback

[gentle acorn]

you don't need much tbh, you could get materials for $20-30 and make the tokens. the biggest difficulty is the tediousness and time consuming to do it

for me it was to actually print out the tokens in the exact dimensions I wanted them to be in, which took over a week to figure out with lots of fails

then I just put them on magnetic receptive sheets and then glued felt on the back so they can stick to the grimoir

[dark rose]

well compared to the level of strength in the base game, FoR shatters the ceiling

but it’s fine in the context of the script’s domain because “if everyone’s super, no one is”

[vernal ingot]

For The Twins:

If Remus is executed then all TF are drunk. Then if a few days later, The Twins are executed, does it also cause more drunkenness?

[dark rose]

as i understand it, yes, it does

[kindred magnet]

Nah. Some are pretty tame.

[dark rose]

"some"

[gentle acorn]

Well, my group got to play FoR, but because we had 18 people, we split up into 2 groups, the advanced players did FoR and I was ST on TB for the newbies so I didnt get to see how FoR played out but it was very chaotic from what I was told

Sometimes we don't get to experience the seeds we sow, but I'm glad the others got to play it

[novel aurora]

Nuh uh
18p with thralls go go go

[gentle acorn]

There was too many new players and even the more experienced ones struggled with FoR

Good thing our main storyteller is very experienced and apparently ran the script well

[novel aurora]

Yeah that was a joke
My group had been playing botc for a year before we ran FoR and it still gave me headaches lol

[gentle acorn]

We kinda speedrunning shit lol, aint got a year 😁

[novel aurora]

I ended up near full solving grim tho so like

Evil got steamrolled

[gentle acorn]

Ive only been ST for a few weeks but im bout to do it for FoR, fuck it

[novel aurora]

Mid-game DeF incoming

[gentle acorn]

One of the experienced players played with the newbies on TB and executed the demon 1st day, so i decided to run sects and violents with the newbie group lol

[novel aurora]

I usually ST
Reasoning
Multiple players who've seen me play all on seperate occasions have told me they'd rather exe me d1 than risk me being evil and winning the game by d2

Tbf the group i play with isn't the most accustomed to the genre

And i'm usually the most logical out of the group

So like

[gentle acorn]

Yeah the trend im noticing with this game is that when ppl start knowing each other and who the good liars are, people want the good players executed very early on

[gentle acorn]

I dont think the group i play with is super accustomed either, but its good times

Ive been liking ST a lot but it does get tiring when i do it all night and dont play a single one

And the one game i played i figured out the zombul on BMR on day 1 and got him executed but i forgot he gets a 2nd life and we lost lol

[dark rose]

ima be honest that’s just a shitty thing to do lol

[novel aurora]

Oh the statements were made mostly jokingly
but tbf usually I win every game I'm in, so they kinda have a fair point

I can count on one hand how many times I lost a botc game
and I can count on one finger where I could have realistically done something about it

so

(specifically with my group ofc)

[gentle acorn]

Meanwhile i lost a game as a demon on the final day cuz my minion was too busy eating fries and forgot to vote to save me from execution

[kindred magnet]

I had a game won for evil because one of the good players passed out in their chair. (near the end of a convention)

[dark rose]

h u h

[gentle acorn]

A dub's a dub ig

[reef fulcrum]

the good ol' sleeping pill trick

[cloud shard]

:D

[tacit marlin]

:D
Very cool

[sharp marlin]

It's a shame TPI cant licence a company to produce "legit" tokens at a good price for people to buy (of course TPI would get their % from it, as it's their IP after all).

[tacit marlin]

There is nowhere near the scale and demand for that to be viable.

[edgy topaz]

I demand this !!

[gentle acorn]

Great job! I made mine a similar way haha, but i actually haven't played FoR yet, gonna play it tomorrow and im terrified that there seems to be 5 times more tokens in this script than any other i've seen lol

[lament pilot]

FoR has so many damn reminders lmao

I had to make an extra token box for them

But don't worry, you usually won't need 80% of them

Especially if you aren't running the travellers

[kindred magnet]

Queue High Priest game where the Demon keeps sinking.

[gentle acorn]

Yeah, played it first time tonight and I applaud our ST for running it as well as he did. Try to figure it out lol

It was as fun as I hoped it would be, despite it being a relatively passive game cuz most players were not familiar with the script so the nominations and votings were not very aggresive

And the haruspex guessed spartacus

I was the only real legionnaire but I spent most of the game feeling I was either a bad omen or droisened lol

[kindred magnet]

Partway through? Or was Cleo executed?

[cloud shard]

partway through

[ornate meteor]

question, does good hannibal learn theyre hannibal?

[kindred magnet]

When the first Hannibal dies, wake them and tell them they are the good Hannibal.

[ornate meteor]

On the bloodstar almanac under Spartacus, it says: "If Spartacus is guessed by an evil player for the first time, having claimed Spartacus that day, the evil team still wins". Why? Can't Spartacus register as townsfolk to avoid evil team winning

[kind drift]

they still have the Spartacus ability. A spy registering as a Virgin doesn't give them the Virgin ability, this is the same.

[ornate meteor]

I see

[novel aurora]

Had a funny longform game just end

Glykon outted evil team to Hani d2

Hani Sparatacus guessed

Evil won

Cinema

[errant violet]

Dammit you and you giving the Pontiff chosen evil the identity of the Spartacus!!!

And dam that Legionary who day 1 spartacus guessed aswell!!!!!!

[novel aurora]

Uh

Crim wasnt evil 😭

Whar

[errant violet]

Oh

Oh wait

Right

Well still dam the Legionary

[novel aurora]

Yeah best play in the world there

[gentle acorn]

Ran an 18 player game for about 4 hours. Shit was crazy and the only reason it worked out was because we were 2 storytellers

[kindred magnet]

There are definitely some scripts that take 2. My first Fall of Rome game I screwed up. Having an ST with Fall of Rome experience is definitely good if you can find one.

Taking it slow at night is definitely suggested.

[lament pilot]

That's awesome

Yea having 2 storytellers is amazing for 15+ games, especially when there's so much tracking to do with Spartacus and such

[gentle acorn]

Yeah i was lucky to have a very experienced ST help me run it, otherwise it would've been a mess

One of the biggest difficulty was running 2 mercenaries who kept copying other townsfolk abilities

1 townsfolk 1 minion i mean

[kindred magnet]

The first time I ran my own homebrew madness script I needed a second ST. 🫪

[gentle acorn]

The other big problem, the tokens are so big, they barely fit

[gentle acorn]

I might be able to run FoR with 10-12 players and no travelers but 15+ with travelers is madness

And that's after i took out vestal and glycon to make it easier