lore-discussion

[lean garden]

check #memories-of-tau there should be a google doc with all of them

[leaden thicket]

Anyone got incarnon torid build?

[swift sentinel]

#builds-discussion

[chilly obsidian]

How far is the community with voidtongue translation?

Do we know what iatra means yet?

[south sun]

Doesn't look like it yet.
https://wiki.warframe.com/w/Voidtongue#Untranslated_words

[lean garden]

iatra?

where did you find that one?

[chilly obsidian]

lotus eaters intro
isleweaver soundtrack

[celest needle]

10 minutes

[chilly obsidian]

she casting on my pylon til I cry

[glacial bough]

Alright gentlemen, I'm see you all on the other side

[strange plinth]

indeed

[wooden compass]

is sister marie leroux a nun or a priestess?

[signal nova]

when is the old peace supposed to be? I dont remember the tenno ever being on tau

[swift sentinel]

At some point during the old war, the Orokin and Sentients made a brief peace. These memories were suppressed and this is them being unlocked

[balmy holly]

Guys is kullervo still good for being a melee warframe or were there some nerfs?

[chilly obsidian]

IVBOK AIO-UN KARIS, MARA LOHK
submit <unknown> darkness, tenno?

[median ferry]

Do we know Entrati's tittle and posititon within the hiarachy? It feels incorrect for him to be just an Archemedian, and we now know he wasn't an of the Seven, so where does he stand

(I suppose we knew he's not one of the Seven earlier than this, I'm a bit slow on the uptake)

[scenic depot]

||AYATANS DO STUFF?||

[strange turtle]

Archimedians aren’t in the Orokin hierarchy

It’s never stated, but it’s like this weird pseudo-caste kind of thing

[strange turtle]

Orokin as in the ruling caste I mean

[strange turtle]

Orokin who are scientists can become one and it’s just like a status thing ig, but others can become them too and it places them so high that a servant for Archimedeans is suitable for an Orokin (Loid) and the college for them could get away with rejecting Daughter on a technicality

[spice onyx]

Weirdly enough, almost(?) all Orokin we come in contact with are scientists.

[scenic depot]

I literally cannot hate ballas more oh my god

[smoky solstice]

ok am I finished with the old peace

I just got tpd to my orbiter and it seems like it's loading the quest end screen but can't because the servers are completely cooked?

ok yeah I thin kthat was it

I'm a bit confused I think?

like I don't get it, was ballas in on it with galastra after all? galastra just sacrificed herself to keep the war going? because clearly galastra didn't want to keep the war from happening given that her actions don't align at all with that seemingly

also how did we immediately find out after coming out? did I miss some visual effect because my visual effect intensity is low or something that clued us in on what's going on?

[lean garden]

might be your VFX because the eggs turned on

and the plants died

[smoky solstice]

and finally, why did margulis put us in the dream? is the ending supposed to imply that she knew but... didn't want it to happen so she... rendered us useless?

I didn't get that part at all

[smoky solstice]

ohhh, gotcha

[lean garden]

Galastra's death was inconsequential, the eggs were more important

[lean garden]

because of the voices (wally)

and because it was a way to keep you out of harms way from the orokin

who deemed you a traitor alongside adis

[smoky solstice]

so war breaks out and now she's like ok we must make you unable to defend yourself anymore or to fight back ig? I guess I just don't entirely get it, because clearly the voices have been a thing for a while now, am I missing something here

also, does this quest imply all the reviving and the void powers we have is in some way related to adis?

or is she just behind us being able to revive

[lean garden]

homie, you in the pods is you fighting from the pods

[smoky solstice]

ok but it's also a very vulnerable position to be in, no? the orokin can just come in and bam, kill you dead

[lean garden]

how will they find you among that many tenno

which are now very critical to the war that just restarted

[smoky solstice]

oh, so

ok I see, we are just the one person out of many who got used like that

[lean garden]

Even margulis was used

[fast dew]

Remember to spoiler shit chat

[smoky solstice]

I mean this is a spoiler chat, no?

[fast dew]

No. Its not.

[smoky solstice]

then why does it say "this channel may contain spoilers" in the very top

[fast dew]

This isn't spoiler chat, this is lore discussion.

[smoky solstice]

yeah but it has the same disclaimer as spoiler chat

[fast dew]

You can still spoiler it with || on either side.

[smoky solstice]

like both of these I thought are known to be spoiler heavy channels

[fast dew]

And?

Spoiler it. People will come here with questions about previous quests and it'll be on blast without it.

[smoky solstice]

I mean it doesn't really make sense to me but sure

[smoky solstice]

||ok another thing is that idk what the hell transference is referring to now? because it seems like tenno were using transference long before margulis died from this quest, yet in the second dream we're told the orokin used margulis' work to create transference, so what's going on there?||

[lean garden]

||transference existed before it was used in the warframe project||

||It was margulis's tool for our therapy before we all were roped into the warframe project||

[smoky solstice]

||but why did it have to be "reinvented" then? like clearly it was utilized for combat purposes before margulis died, but I really feel like the second dream implies the orokin wanted to get rid of all the tenno until they managed to figure out a way for them to control the warframes, which they figured out from margulis after she was killed||

idk if I'd call it a retcon, mostly because I think I'm missing something given the fact that it's like the most obvious contradiction that the writers had to account for in some way

also I do just want to say the I loved this quest real quick, I'm just asking to clear up some details that aren't connecting in my mind

like holy crap, warframes and operators now don't just jump from looking in one direction to another while you're using wasd, they have a smooth animation now, which makes the cinematic scenes so much better

[abstract ridge]

timeline of events is cooked now

[smoky solstice]

also ||SO THE EYELESS LOTUS WAS MARGULIS, SHE WAS EYELESS ALL THIS TIME???||

[lean garden]

||Thats a stickler, that is how the second dream phrases it, but the more we see with the rest of the game, for instance with Silver Grove already, there exists the possibility the Margulis was indeed dragged into the warframe project with us||

[lean garden]

well yea, we've known this since like uh, chains of harrow?

[smoky solstice]

I must've missed something there

I always just thought it was supposed to be a spooky lotus/margulis visual

[lean garden]

the literal blood on the wall

[smoky solstice]

that would be explained in this quest

[smoky solstice]

I don't understand

[lean garden]

the literal blood on the wall in Chains of Harrow

or was it on the floor?

[smoky solstice]

yeah I mean there's blood on walls in chains of harrow

[lean garden]

That said "Blinded she cast him out"

and then again in isleweaver where wally taunted us about blinding margulis

[smoky solstice]

well I didn't know that was meant literally lmao

[lean garden]

and theres also the second dream actually

thats the first mention

[smoky solstice]

alright

[lean garden]

Ballas: "How can you defend those devils, Margulis, after what they've done to you?!"

Margulis: "Love looks not with the eyes but with the mind. They won't hurt anyone, I just need more time."

turns out she was being very literal after all

[smoky solstice]

another detail, I think this quest implies ||that the "misery of the void" (the teshin line from the war within) we were made to forget was all of this, but I feel like that makes no sense||

||that quest shows us what margulis made us forget too, I mean the whole ten-0 thing||

[smoky solstice]

ooh, that's nuts

I guess that was always just kinda implied in a way that didn't connect in my mind

even after all the visuals we saw leading up to this release

[abstract ridge]

i cant believe there were other zarimans

[smoky solstice]

I really wonder how the older quests look now with the updated operators and drifters. Like the cutscenes actually look so good now that the operator doesn't look like a complete goofball.

[smoky solstice]

ig that was also kinda implied given that it was called the 10-0, but yeah, nice to see another zariman at least

[lean garden]

this we know too

[smoky solstice]

anyway yeah, this was another straight up banger from the DE writing, animation, cinematography, I mean everyone was on fire here

[lean garden]

I see some of yall aint chronically online

[abstract ridge]

how did we know that

[lean garden]

because yall aint there for the stream, or the kimchats

[lean garden]

KIM chats told us about zarimans 1-9

[smoky solstice]

I was once again going in with low expectations given how much I loved the hex, but I mean idk if I prefer the story in this quest, all I can say is that its such a beautiful quest, I mean the music is so goddamn nice throughout it, it's so much more grand, I may just place it in the same tier

[abstract ridge]

oh damn i didnt know

[lean garden]

and the stream earlier told us that the worldseeders were delivered via one of the zarimans (excluding 10)

[smoky solstice]

I really like the callbacks to previous quests

even if not all of it connects in my head 100% still

[smoky solstice]

wait do you have an idea about this? I mean I can't be crazy here, ||the ending literally has the operator being forced to forget all of what happened here, it seems directly related to margulis attempting to shield them from all their trauma. Is this supposed to be like a "well it was sorta implied you remembered everything in the war within but that was really just one segment of the trauma"|| @lean garden

||oh actually now that I think about it, all of this stuff from around the new war era about us like not remembering all the stuff we did in the old war, presumably after the ending of this quest, I guess that's why we don't, because we were dreaming, and even though we're sorta dreaming when you start playing the game prior to having finished the second dream, ig the "second" part is supposed to imply that the first dream was like you weren't committing any of it to memory, you were just vibing in the pod, following orders||

[lean garden]

last line no

as evidenced by your time in the pool, you didnt remember this part

[smoky solstice]

nah yeah, you didn't remember this part, but I thought the war within was supposed to be like a "ok margulis made you forget and now you go through all of that trauma so you remember it all afterwards and have your void powers restored"

now it just seems like "you remember part of it but not all"

[lean garden]

that was how I always saw it, especially after they revealed the memory pool

[smoky solstice]

hm, I guess I just understood it differently

[ocean hamlet]

finished the quest, ||does anyone else find it interesting that Adis was not only able to heal a non-sentient, but doing so overcharged our void powers?||

||not to mention, Adis says his light will be with us, always. what exactly does that entail?||

[smoky solstice]

that's what I'm saying, it's weird

[ocean hamlet]

it'll probably get expanded on when we finally go to Tau in the current era, but i find it very curious

[smoky solstice]

||yeah like the healing thing mentioned in the inbox after this seems to imply to me that it may just be the reviving powers that adis gives us, but I have no idea, it does seem to be implied a lot of our void powers are related to adis. Maybe that's why we seemingly differ from the other tenno in lore? like we seem to be the MC among the tenno and there's no real reason that should be the case since everyone was void touched||

[lean garden]

remember how you said you like callbacks?

||This isnt the only time the game has been weird about you and "light"||

[lean garden]

I mean theres also the reason that you made the deal

[smoky solstice]

yeah but wally is the one who talks to specifically you about it

ig it could be a personality diff, you're just more prone to accepting, but still

[lean garden]

yea, but you do tell one of the hex about it

so you yourself recognise the weirdness about "light"

and now || adis adds to itt||

[fallen oxide]

||@night light basically, If we didn't go Into the second dream, the orokin would have accused uf of treason, and the Man in the wall would probably have posessed us (hence the coices), margulis was the only accused of treason because of this||

[dawn shoal]

i'm only just starting the quest, but even about ten-fifteen minutes in, i am starting to think that the "binary stars" aren't actually the tau systems stars at all, the blue orbs we're seeing in the quest scenes at least might just be the portals for the extrasolar rail, radiating enough Void energy to look like a star and somehow connecting /to/ tau's star, maybe drawing energy to help power the rail from it

[lean garden]

possible I will give you a lil spoiler and tell you that its not explained in the quest

[glacial bough]

That's also not really how the rails work

[main crane]

||Rap tap tap is crazy||

[vernal heart]

ok, nice quest so far, but i still don't understand what's happening, what is going on?

it's like in that song "what's the big f'ing deal? what the f' are we doing out here?"

[lean garden]

you just got more of your memories back

and youve harvested data to make tau in sight for you

[dawn shoal]

i mean i figured a detail like that wouldn't be XD but it's what makes the most sense to me atm

[vernal heart]

are billion-lightyears-long loading screens part of the experience, too?

[lean garden]

er this is the part where I tell you a lightyear is a unit of distance not time

so unless you have a really wide monitor...

[main crane]

||Anyways, here's how I understood the Quest. We're buddies with the Sentients cuz the xenoflora give Sentients free will or something. Then there goes Ballas, as usual, being a lil shit. He messed up the codes that Margulis gave us to stop the funky eggs from yanking the xenoflora. No xenoflora means Sentient go crazy. Sentient go crazy means the war continues. Margulis sent us to the second dream so that we won't get executed for treason, thus the reason why Margulis was killed by the Orokin.||

[dawn shoal]

i haven't found anything yet that says how the extrasolar/interstellar version might differ from the interplanetary version we already know, so atm i'm categorizing this under "my best guess" and choosing to be satisfied that i am no longer being driven crazy by trying to figure it out lol

[vernal heart]

imma boutta "actually" the hell out of you - a lightyear is a unit of time projected onto distance, it's the distance that a photon travels in a single solar year

[soft orchid]

||so what exactly got Adis so mad after the Caliban fight? I think the cutscene bugged out or something||

[main crane]

||Evil Ordis (Daklo) is truly evil||

[lean garden]

so its a unit of distance

because its the distance light travels in a year

[vital night]

||adis realized ballas and Margulis betrayed us and used us as pawns in the war||

[main crane]

||They're mad they both got framed. Since Margulis gave us the codes, Adis believed it was Margulis who set them up but the Tenno suspects its Ballas.||

[lean garden]

well, ||not margulis, she too is a victim||

[soft orchid]

||ohhh im just dense I forgot margulis gave us the codes 💀 💀||

[vital night]

||Yeah guess I should be clear, Adis thought Margulis did (at least thats my understanding)||

[main crane]

||The Ayatan came from Margulis||

[vernal heart]

it describes a distance, but from the viewpoint of time spent traveling, it's like saying "m/s is a unit of distance", it's not, "m" is, the "/s" part makes it something else

[ionic jackal]

||i dont understand how the ending lines up timewise with what we know of the tenno and sentients wiping out the orokin ||

[glacial bough]

Old Peace is just an in-between period

[main crane]

The Orokin slaughter happened way after the Old Peace

[glacial bough]

The War kicking back up is just what leads to events of Lotus being created and Ballas defecting, etc.

[ionic jackal]

right but the ending of old peace has us going to sleep?

[main crane]

Well, we were asleep when we massacred the Orokin

[lean garden]

I uh, Im sorry to say this, but it really is still a unit of distance. Its not a m/s its the m

because the speed of light is a universal constant, so lightyears arent measuring speed, nor are they measuring time cuz the time is locked to a year, so all thats left is a distance

[lean garden]

asleep in the pods, but in a... second dream controlling the warframes

[woven trench]

|| all he be doing is racism||

[main crane]

||Blowing him up was so satisfying||

[woven trench]

Idk I just thought it's funny to do

|| I feel like the whole devil triad situation have 0 buildup||

[vernal heart]

the result is a distance, yes, but i'm more so saying that "a lightyear" necessarily needs time, a year, to be measured against. the calculation that gives you the distance is impossible without the time component, so you can't measure that distance without measuring the time first, which does make it more of an "m/s" type situation, though honestly the distinction is negligeable

[lean garden]

Right...

[fast dew]

||yeah. I was saying this from the start smh. They feel out of place. Though the interactions they have with each other is funny||

[lean garden]

cool anyways, Ill do some digging on roathes idle lines tmr

[vernal heart]

brother you don't need to comment in this "get a lot of this bs" type way if you found the vibes of my statement lacking

[lean garden]

Well aight homie

I dont know how else to explain that its not a measurement of speed

and its for sure not a measurement of time

[fast dew]

Its distance aint it?

Distance measured by how long light takes to reach a place

[grizzled otter]

How do i block the message for spoilers . I want to ask but i dont want to spoil anything

[lean garden]

|| but on both sides

[grizzled otter]

Ty

[vernal heart]

you got it, buddy, it's the most straightforward way to think about it

[fast dew]

Can't light years be converted into AU?

[lean garden]

it can AU is uuuuh whats 8/60/24/365

[grizzled otter]

||so if what roathe said that he saw his followeres turned into that "thing" does this mean that the frames transformation can duplicated? So there wasnt just one mag, excalibur,etc? Roathe is the og devilframe but his men also became devils||

[lean garden]

An AU is 8 lightminutes iirc

[lean garden]

|| it means that all his men were uriels||

[lean garden]

|| also like, yes, you can have more than one copy of a frame||

[green beacon]

What’s the whole stick with Uriel, is he based off of Satan or somn?

[grizzled otter]

||right, so that could mean that if they wanted to. They could make a whole army of excaliburs, frost, but they didnt||

Or maybe im seeing it wrong

[lean garden]

they kinda did, on a smaller scale

[lean garden]

the issue mind you ||is that you have limited operators||

you cant produce an endless amount of warframes because you dont have enough controllers

[grizzled otter]

Right. ||what i thought was that when they did the experiments w the strain, it kept giving different results. Birthing different warframes. I thought that it was uncontrollable. But if what roathe said is true that implies that they can control it to a certain degree. I thought that its a one chance thing. Something special, unique one of a kind||

[lean garden]

they've always been able to control it

[grizzled otter]

Ah ok. Thnx

[woven trench]

Also
|| why is DE genuinely allergic to put more Tenno characters in the game?||

My overall opinion of Old Peace
|| great cinematic experience, very mediocre writing||

[glass flume]

why even bother to restart the war? damn orokin

[fast dew]

||The orokin wanted tau. The sentients were to kick the orokin out via the peace treaty.||

[lean garden]

all this for a moon btw

[woven trench]

Shi been to quiet in the hood
Bring me liberty,
Bring me fire.
Give me unjustifiable conflict,
Else I retire.
-Basically the Orokins.

[lean garden]

the sentients || were getting just a moon||

[fast dew]

Must be a very important moon

[woven trench]

One thing I don't understand
Dint the Orokin empire never made it to Tau?

[woven trench]

And even that is to much

[fast dew]

Well, they did. I guess.

I hate it
Why was ||murmur playing with ballas???||

[woven trench]

But
The zariman never made it to Tau

[smoky solstice]

ok wait one more thing ||is margulis implied to have known about the plot or did she not know? because now that I think about it, her not knowing makes a lot more sense||

[fast dew]

Didn't need the zariman. The solar rail was a thing

[glass flume]

|||is galastra in cahoots with the seven? or she had her own agenda and the orokin just took advantage of the chaos?||| idk which side she was on, with all the "here's the truth" thing

[woven trench]

Then wtf are the zariman for?

[smoky solstice]

the zariman was before the old peace

[fast dew]

They got impatient lol

[woven trench]

So the whole sentient gain sentience and rebel against the orokin are all BS?

[smoky solstice]

idk if that part makes much sense though, like the zariman is capable of void travel, so it makes sense like how it could make it to another solar system in a reasonable amount of time
construction of a solar rail there however would take way too long, no?

[woven trench]

They are more then willing to vouge for peace?

[woven trench]

It's not a litteral rail

[smoky solstice]

it's still something that would have to be built by beings not going at the speed of light

[brazen seal]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1433894606231175269.webp?size=48&animated=true

[woven trench]

The sentient build it
Think of it as a path made from their footsteps

[smoky solstice]

idk exactly how far away the tau system is irl (I think that's an actual solar system, right?) but what, did it take like god knows how many years for it to be built?

[smoky solstice]

yeah, and the sentients are presumably constrained by the laws of physics, which is why I'm a bit confused. Like void travel, sure, it allows for travel all the way there in not much time at all, I just don't understand how the sentients take the long way and build it in a reasonable amount of time, unless this project actually took like an insanely long time

it's not like a contradiction necessarily, but it does feel a bit weird now that I think about it

[woven trench]

Again
Iirc it's not a litteral rail

Like not a physical body
It's more like a safe path for the empire to move

[smoky solstice]

yeah but for it to exist, the sentients would have to go all the way there

it's not like the sentients can teleport to tau

[woven trench]

Yeah
And they did

Through the void

[smoky solstice]

I mean I looked it up and it's 12 light years away

[smoky solstice]

how are the sentients utilizing void travel

[woven trench]

They adapt to it

[smoky solstice]

they can't interact with the void at all

the void is like the one place they can't go, that's established in the second dream

[dark compass]

||canonical revive explanation was pretty neat||

[smoky solstice]

I mean it could be that like

they move very fast and it took like a few hundred years

and after that the rail just allows for travel much faster than the speed of light and it's all good

[woven trench]

Decades I think

[glass flume]

||what was galastra's goal?||

[stray gale]

being an opp ig

[woven trench]

Ok someone fact check me real quick
How did the Sentients made it to Tau?

[smoky solstice]

decades just feels a bit weird, since 12 light years away means that if it took decades, they'd have to be moving at like relativistic speeds, which is kinda crazy

[brazen seal]

normal travel

flying there

[glass flume]

||was she working with the orokin? or was the orokin just taling advantage of the chaos?||

[woven trench]

Huh
I guess they really are raw like that

[glass flume]

the long way

[smoky solstice]

who

[glass flume]

galastra

[woven trench]

Wait how long did it took em to reach Tau?

[brazen seal]

we don't know
long enough for the orokin to be impatient and make the zariman

[woven trench]

Checks out

Wait is the solar rail like, a literal rail?

[proper barn]

They can after they build the solar rail.

[proper barn]

It's more a super highway.

[brazen seal]

more like a wormhole ?

[stray gale]

if there's an immediate issue I do have

[woven trench]

Huh

[stray gale]

i think that whole localised memory wiping business is very cheap

[woven trench]

?

[little meteor]

Sooo... Why the hell did margulis had no eyes???
And was she part of it or not

[stray gale]

at the very end

[smoky solstice]

||it would really depend, like apparently the vote was 4-3 for the peace, but idk why ballas would just randomly change his mind about it. Ig establish infrastructure on Tau and then resume warfare? either way, I think he was colluding with the warmongers in the seven, and thus galastra's whole thing was just a tool for the seven to use to resume the war. She clearly wasn't trying to end the war, she was trying to continue it and she seemed clued in on the plan given the fact that she didn't seem to care much about losing the fight against us.||

[little meteor]

Tbh we know the orokin always hid the truth soooooo

[iron yarrow]

we burned out her eyes when we first came out of the void

[stray gale]

as a framing device its a little convenient for someone to just be like "oh, you forgot it all btw"

[little meteor]

When was that stated again?

[stray gale]

only slightly better than "it was all just a dream"

[iron yarrow]

Long time ago, second dream maybe? something around that time.

[proper barn]

We had a IT WAS ALL A DREAM QUEST.

It was GOOD.

[woven trench]

Still not sure what your talking about

[proper barn]

It was the war within. I love the war within.

[stray gale]

at the very end

[smoky solstice]

||part of the scheme? I think it makes more sense that she wasn't. I mean she says that we know the answer, that seems to imply she's trying to say like yeah, I'm still on your side, you know I wouldn't do this, and it would make sense why this was the catalyst for putting us in the dream and hiding us among the other Tenno on Lua. Like she found out this happened, hatched this plan and ended up being executed for not giving us up to the Seven.||

[jaunty oasis]

As far as I understand:
||Orokin suffer failures in their fight against the sentients before the old peace and call a truce which slowly works into a peace treaty.||
||Galastra is angered at this, and goes rebel, orokin executors like Ballas probably predicted this and took advantage, lending aid, probably unbeknownst to Galastra, but definitely unbeknownst to the sentients.||
That seem right?

[proper barn]

Was it? In that quest

Silvana says Marg requested her

And she's the best infested scientist.

Also we hear about Marg using Transferance therapy.

[little meteor]

So we ended up in a semi sleep on lua still working for the orokin/margulis
Still able to be in tenno (as we see when the lotus face her borther and we laser him as tenno) And we still end up killing all the orokin

[woven trench]

Dint the lore stated that the Sentients fought against the orokin because they gain sentience and rebelled?

[outer snow]

Sorry. I wanted to repost the message with spoiler tags, but I don't see a way to do that on mobile.

[proper barn]

|| put these

Around your message.

[little meteor]

When they were in a hive mind state
Then they became individuals and went for peace
Question being where the heck was unkhow at that time

[smoky solstice]

||yeah but I guess that first dream was a lot less vivid and we don't remember doing any of that compared to the second dream, which is what I assume the beginning of the game all the way to the second dream quest is.||

[woven trench]

Pretty sure bro was in Origin system

[jaunty oasis]

||Yeah, at first they were drones for the orokin, went to Tau, ate the flowers and gained sentience. Only part I'm lost on is that them going 'hivemind' means they attack the orokin after losing sentience.||

[smoky solstice]

actually wait, maybe they changed the lines in the second dream, did anyone check

they've done line changes before if a newer quest retcons previous lore

[woven trench]

So they lied?

[jaunty oasis]

||who lied?||

[outer snow]

|| I don't know how to feel about the Margulis retcon. I think it opens up more story potential, but it does seem to clash with The Second Dream and The Silver Grove which imply that 1) Margulis was executed before Transference was used for the Warframes, and that Margulis and Silvana opposed the Orokin using Transference for the Warframes. Perhaps the Ballas line in TSD about Transference is now supposed to be said before Margulis's execution.||

Thanks!

[little meteor]

Guess the head of the hive mind at the time aka unkhow told them to

[woven trench]

The orokin
The sentience vouche for piece

[jaunty oasis]

||Yeah I think the orokin lied intentionally because they needed time to hatch a new plan to fight the sentients because they were losing.||

[placid cypress]

uhh guys did i miss a part in the quest, ehy are we able to go straight to la cathedrale

[outer snow]

I dont think they changed the lines. It just means that the voice overs are out of order. The voice line where Ballas mentions "those consigned to Lua" and "they're calling it Transference" plays after the voice line about Margulis being executed. But this quest basically rearranges that.

[woven trench]

But they don't need to fight though???
||All they have to do is help them grow the xenoflora||

||Why tf they chose violence?
All they were asking for is Perita||

[smoky solstice]

||the latter works, like Margulis could've been against using it for warframes, yet she was still forced to. Given that we were about to be executed, Margulis could've just chosen to draw the line here. In terms of the Second Dream, yeah, that's like a contradiction for sure, if the word "create" wasn't used, I could maybe see it as like Margulis was the one who knew how it worked so the Orokin had to delve into her research to rediscover transference, but given that the word "create" is used, it just doesn't work. Hence why I asked if there were any line changes in the Second Dream to accomodate this.||

[jaunty oasis]

||Because the orokin are jerks, they're not gonna be satisfied being on any kind of footing with any other being except themselves. It's true they could've had actual peace, but they didn't want coexistence, they want dominion.||

[little meteor]

We can't breathe the atmosphere with the flowers there
We see our breathing things going off when the flowers dies

[smoky solstice]

||that's not the problem, the problem is that the Lotus says in the Second Dream that the Orokin murdered Margulis and then used her work to "create" Transference. In this quest we can clearly see that the Tenno have been utilizing Transference long before her execution. That's like the main contradiction here.||

[little meteor]

So Kinda to keep us able to terraform it i guess

Btw do you guys know what tenno outfit we had druing the quest?
Guess it's from a prime access

[placid cypress]

are we supposed to be able tojust visit the cathedral

[jaunty oasis]

it's sold in the market right now

[brazen seal]

caliban's prime access

[woven trench]

? I dint notice that at all
Ya sure?

[jaunty oasis]

It's called Grand Carnus

[smoky solstice]

yeah, I'm assuming after you're done with the quest, although I didn't check prior

[placid cypress]

yeah im just confused as theres no "reason" that were able to visit them

[stray gale]

yeah you just go to the sanctum

it just shows up

[smoky solstice]

||Marie says that Entrati (who is a cardinal to them) basically told them to hit us up or something, I'm assuming it's not directly related to the events of the Old Peace||

[outer snow]

Oh, yeah, that is a retcon then. Forgot about the Lotus lines at the end of the quest. So, yeah, this retcons that. Really, The Silver Grove already retconned it by introducing "Transference therapy" as a thing Margulis and Silvana developed.

[little meteor]

Sorry for the bad quality
You see our tenno grabbing where the mask is supposed to be active in panick

[smoky solstice]

yeah, although in regards to that ||at least it's like a type of therapy and not a combat thing, this quest instead just completely changed that, which is what confused me for a while, since that seems like such a glaring detail from the Second Dream that there's no way the writers didn't account for it, but maybe it slipped through the cracks or something and they'll change the lines in the Second Dream at a later date or something as they've done with other lines in quests?||

[outer snow]

||Also, the quest seems to imply that the second dream is when Margulis put the Tenno in the pods, which would clash with the Natah Quest and The Second Dream.||

[outer snow]

The writers said that Steve told them to ignore any lore contradictions/inconsistencies.

[proper barn]

Steve doesn't work on warframe anymore does he?

[outer snow]

It could probably be explained away by saying that the Lotus really didn't know or didn't remember.

[outer snow]

Yes, he still works on Warframe. The whole WW1 inspiration and "trench warframe" was his idea. He worked with the writers and even advised them to keep it as a smaller human-level story instead of doing big space battles.

[smoky solstice]

||it's especially strange since I think when the Hex came out, some early game quest got some lines changed, which didn't even contradict the Hex or the existence of techrot but ig implied against it, so it seemed like DE was trying to make sure this type of stuff remains consistent throughout the game and to make appropriate changes in case of retcon, however in this quest alone there's like this one big contradiction and then several others, which seem to go against what was previously implied (for instance, this seems to be part of the "misery of the void" that teshin talks about in the war within, given that he states that margulis made us forget things and this was one of the things that margulis erased from our memory. Like margulis erasing our memory of the Old Peace felt like a specific callback to that moment, even though in the war within it's clearly implied at that point that the "misery of the void" that was erased from our memory was the zariman ten-0 incident.|| @outer snow

[proper barn]

They should do Big space battles.

As well. It would be fun.

[outer snow]

It's not the first time a quest has contradicted a previous quest.

[smoky solstice]

oh that's interesting, honestly I don't even hate that because I love what the DE writers have been cooking and I really don't mind even straight up contradictions as long as the story remains as cool as it has been, it's just like kinda strange due to the fact that it seemed like DE would play it different?

[little meteor]

Tbh the lotus most likely started to remeber things after we killed ballas

[outer snow]

Yeah

[smoky solstice]

I mean just keep the vibes good, like the callbacks were all amazing in this quest

and yeah, I don't really care, but for a moment it made me think like I was missing something

[little meteor]

Can we all agree that we do want to go kill ballas again?

[smoky solstice]

hopefully they get Rebb to rerecord the lines eventually though, I mean it would still be nice if all the lines were at least not explicitly contradictory

[smoky solstice]

idk he's still a has been, we can find solace in that

[little meteor]

Meanwhile the drifter chilling eating pizza and making new friends (Time to hop in XX99)

[crimson perch]

I am starting to feel Ballas is probably die way too early, smh...

[stray gale]

ngl he was kinda carrying team villain

i'm not surprised they brought him back for this update

[smoky solstice]

it's so weird how THIS was the dark quest between the both of them

I really thought the drifter quest would be the gritty one

I mean on the lead-up you could kinda see that they were going for a darker vibe again but I was expecting something completely different tbh

[smoky solstice]

I disagree, he was kinda the main villain for the first arc, he was great but now we got wally and I think it's better he didn't overstay his welcome

[stray gale]

you say that but he's got the most screentime out of any villain

and imo he clears wally big time

like im personally just not scared of wally whatsoever but ballas makes me want to kick him in the family crest

[smoky solstice]

I don't think he clears wally at all. I mean maybe in terms of aura but wally is meant to be more of a lovecraftian being and it's nice to have that type of variety

[smoky solstice]

and you're scared of a person you want to kick in the crotch? lmao

[stray gale]

not scared of him but i like it when he's on screen because he's got presence

[smoky solstice]

I disagree though, I mean scared is a strong word, not like warframe is a horror game, but wally works big time for me

[stray gale]

wally i'm just like, yeah whatever man, what are you gonna do

sit in my chair 🛌

[smoky solstice]

sorta but I really like the psychological elements with wally, all the taunting and all that, it really works for me

for instance the way the green text changes to wally in the hex quest

[stray gale]

i just find it kind of weak when they've been teasing wally's villainy for years and then when its time for an update (this one) for a villain to actually do something, they bring back ballas

[little meteor]

Us when wally will decide it's time to personally rip every limb of the hexes and to kill ordis

[crimson perch]

But we are now learning more of his wicked wrong doings and it result to me kind of staring intensely at his grave because I can't do anything about it. He is dead and gone.

[misty salmon]

Wally's got the "incomprehensible horror" villain problem, he's harder to connect to so he's harder to hate.
Ballas is doing terrible things for tiny, petty, so very human reasons, it's really easy to hate him.

[little meteor]

Oh and guys
What do you think will be the consequences of us killing the cephalon or not?

[stray gale]

nothing lol

there might be some different lines in a future update but i doubt it changes much

[smoky solstice]

this was not the update for wally to "do something", this was the second half of what was started with lotus eaters. We had the hex quest with 1999 and now we have the old peace with tau, both of these are preludes to a future final conflict that both set it up

[little meteor]

Yeah, sadly we're all still waiting for all our choices to matter

[stray gale]

if wally kills ordis and the hex i'll take everything back tbqh

[little meteor]

Maybe one day

[stray gale]

but they first teased him in like, what, the railjack update or something

and its like, where are the hands

[little meteor]

Nah way earlier
The war within when you drink kuva

[misty salmon]

"don't forget kiddo, you owe me"

[stray gale]

the lovecraftian incomprehensible horror and all he does with his powers is troll a 13 year old because he's a cosmic incel like cmon

ballas used his incel powers to cap teshin and take over the entire star system

[smoky solstice]

are we waiting for that? I don't think the choices will ever matter too much considering that this is a live service game and if they made the choices much more than cosmetic, they would just have the opportunity to kill people's accounts if they're dissatisfied with the result and it's not like this is the type of game you just start over.
Personally, I see the choices as a way to insert your own personality into decisions that are kinda inconsequential but they build the character you wanna be

[smoky solstice]

what are you talking about

wally is encroaching on the whole damn universe

[stray gale]

i'm talking about how wally just doesnt DO anything

[smoky solstice]

he's just not been able to go all the way in terms of that

[smoky solstice]

define doesn't do anything

[little meteor]

Yeah we kinda saw that he jumped on the occasion when balla sopened the portal

[stray gale]

the game talks about how potentially threatening he is for years and it just hasnt manifested in a way that feels threatening in the actual game

[little meteor]

Honestly during this quest he was just taunting us in the past and pissing us off sending the murmur to our door

[smoky solstice]

I mean I'd blame the "years" part more on the previous dev team just being mega slow with quests compared to now, so you'd wait like 3 years to get the sacrifice and another 3 years to get the new war and it moved pretty slow. Recently there's a lot he's been doing that requires our attention.

[stray gale]

yeah thats kinda my point right, he does that but then we just pop back into our frame and then just take all the murmur out no problem

and then just go back in the matrix like nothing happened

[smoky solstice]

their actions in the zariman, whispers, 1999, this quest is more supposed to be a "prequel" in a sense in terms of what we're playing for most of it, so they're more just shown as a character who's embedded themselves in the operator

[vernal heart]

i dunno about that one, fam, bro is all over the shop, everywhere, doing all kinds of movement, though granted sometimes man straight up becomes other men, i find that a little bit wild

[stray gale]

yeah and the last time he did that, albrecht saw straight through it

[smoky solstice]

he didn't see through it, he was exposed to it

[stray gale]

like ig my problem is not that doesnt do anything but that he feels harmless

[smoky solstice]

he didn't know it was specifically wally until wally showed themselves, I mean you can see albrecht being surprised by it

[stray gale]

in a way that ballas didnt

[smoky solstice]

I mean sure but in that case, how does ballas feel harmful?

[vernal heart]

but the point is that wall licker does do a lot stuff

[smoky solstice]

well actually

[strange plinth]

he had subsumed a lot of the labs to get right to the door there

[smoky solstice]

I will agree with you in a sense now that I think about it

[stray gale]

ballas got several main cast characters killed and is responsible for like 80% of the nonsense the tenno have to deal with

[smoky solstice]

like the sacrifice, which is pretty much the actual ballas intro quest, the prelude to it is kinda like whatever, made him feel severe for sure

I mean you're put in the POV of someone who ballas tormented hard, that does create more of an intimate vibe

[smoky solstice]

well, the indifference is the actual root cause, ballas just made it more able to do stuff

[smoky solstice]

as in, the sacrifice made him feel severe

I get it to some extent?

[stray gale]

yeah and that sort of thing is the kind of thing wally is missing

in 1999, the hex mostly just complain about albrecht, and in whispers of the wall, loid seems more inconvenienced than anything

[misty salmon]

It's a bit small scale feeling... oh Wally's gone into the past to punch an old man in the face and kidnap the (most definitely not) princess into a fairytale story... and this impacts us how? Half of us want to punch the old man ourselves.

[smoky solstice]

but then there's a lot of cool details with the indifference, like the way he appears in the tablets in duviri, the way he comes into the green text, kinda breaking the fourth wall even sometimes, there's like a lot of cool stuff there I really like

[strange plinth]

i mean, this quest set up that he's been meddling with us for a while, this isn't recent

[smoky solstice]

yeah because they're not even aware of what wally is and why albrecht is doing what he's doing, all they know is that albrecht screwed them and they're obviously going to have more of an emotional reaction to that

[brazen seal]

but at the quest time he was hold back atleast
now he's somewhat "free"

[stray gale]

possibly a take but it might have been better if he werent overtly villainous and was instead just inexplicable

[smoky solstice]

what I will say is that albrecht is a really good sorta second protagonist in the fight against the indifference, idk if there was someone like that in the ballas era

[stray gale]

like a greek god kinda

[smoky solstice]

ig maybe teshin, but teshin doesn't come even close

[stray gale]

i liked the bit about giving the cavia sentience, because that seems like an inexplicable thing a lovecraftian monster might do

where from a mortal POV its not clear whether this was a malicious action or not

[smoky solstice]

to some extent I agree, like the fact that they developed its motivations to like, what, revenge? in the hex quest felt a bit weird. Like here's this incomprehensible being incapable of dealing with human emotion that well and who feeds on apathy, meanwhile its main motivation for trying to take over our world is the orokin screwing it over?

[stray gale]

yeah

like why does he care at all really

[smoky solstice]

I mean I can understand why it cares, but I'm supposed to not be able to 100% be able to understand why it does the things it does

I'm supposed to have the vibe that it does have a motivation, it's just one I can't comprehend

instead the motivation is its finger being cut off and the orokin utilizing it for their evil endeavors

[stray gale]

yeah, like in lovecrafts own work, or the old ones from bloodborne or something

[smoky solstice]

feels way too human

I mean it does feel like sometimes it's pretty hard to understand why it does the things it does

[stray gale]

im scared that they're just gonna openly explain it later 💀

i called him an incel earlier because there's a kim chat where the drifter says that he's so mad because he's lonely and wants friends like the drifter does

[smoky solstice]

like the reactor going off allows albrecht to get enough energy to go to tau, but at the same time the indifference wants it to go off... but the bigger mystery there for me at least was with what albrecht is doing and what albrecht is thinking, like somehow he's the mysterious one

[stray gale]

and its like, please don't let this be an accurate explanation because come on

[smoky solstice]

I mean there's a way to pull this off

to where it doesn't feel too cheesy

I mean the old peace tbh ran a high risk of being kinda cheesy for me, like you have the orokin child who is best friends with the oppressed sentient, and there were all of those scenes which actually hit pretty deep even though if you were to just explain them in text, I'd probably think they sound really cheesy and are probably cringe

[stray gale]

i did kinda find the old peace kinda cheesy 😭 mostly due to the pacing

[smoky solstice]

so DE is capable of pulling off concepts that run a risk of coming off meh

[stray gale]

||introducing the cute child robot and then killing them like 40 minutes later is a bit laughable||

im mostly afraid that wallys resolution will come across as a bit too human and therefore kinda pathetic

and its like, we already had a pathetic villain in ballas

[smoky solstice]

||idk if the pacing made it cheesy, it did feel kinda weird at first but I would mostly have problems with it if they ended it around where I thoguht they would with the operator and adis being attacked by the cleanup crew, like I thought there would be a final battle with the orokin and then that's it, adis dies, that's like all the trauma. It would definitely feel like they kinda rushed through the plot. But the ending really tied it all together and made the whole story actually flow pretty well in my mind. ||

[lilac aspen]

I mean
Isn’t that kinda poetic for something so god-like to have such a rather mundane desire that some humans take for granted?

[smoky solstice]

yeah, I mean his resolution was the worst part of the new war lmao

[prime mural]

Anyone else confused about the 2nd half of today's cinematic quest?

[stray gale]

no because then it wouldnt be godlike

[lilac aspen]

Exactly

[smoky solstice]

I was but after more discussion, I think I'm following in terms of the vibes of it all

what were you curious about

personally it leaves a lot less open than I thought, I thoguht it would be another 1999 situation, where I just had a million questions after finishing it about all the details

some of them still not fully resolved in my mind btw, even after the finale

but this quest just feels like it ties everything together

[prime mural]

Was the old peace fake? And never intended to last?

Or did it start as a genuine thing and ballas found out about the Tenno and sentiments being happy and couldn't take them putting themselves next to the orokin?

Also what was that at the end where the grineer all came to us ans the "official story" on the news was different than what actually happened
Essentially the "the sentients broke the peace"

[stray gale]

dw if you think i have problems with wally, viktor is like a million times worse

[smoky solstice]

and it really feels like nice to have something more from that era, since it felt a bit empty lorewise. ||Like they did contradict the seoncd dream but it's nice to actually have a sequence of events leading up to Margulis' death rather than just like a quick summary and some vague notion of ig the Orokin not being able to control you and therefore wanting you dead.||

[stray gale]

who even is this guy

[strange turtle]

It was formed because of a human mind

[dawn shoal]

||how did they contradict the second dream? i just finished it and am still processing plot point XD ||

[little meteor]

By the way
The archmedian said that ballas had a sentient consort
So ballas already had the lotus before margulis death

[bright temple]

Itzam meant he talked to Marghulis

[strange plinth]

huh? he only said archimedean, not sentient

[prime mural]

DID, DID TENNO just do a walking dead negan on ballas? 😂

[oak horizon]

so guys uhmmm if we went to ||sleep|| at the end of this who killed all the ||orokin||

[smoky solstice]

||1. this one's up in the air for me, I'd say yeah, probably a ploy from the seven. It could be that Ballas changed his mind, because the vote was 4-3 and he was the tiebreaker, but maybe they were just split on strategy. I'd say that it was never intended to last, Galastra had the job of keeping the war brewing underground to keep a conflict that could escalate into another war, she was in on it and her job was to essentially sacrifice herself, based on the fact that she seemingly didn't care at all about losing to us. But also, there was the pre-release teaser from yesterday, where she seemed mad about being used like that? So I'm not entirely sure on the details, but yeah, probably planned from the beginning.||

||2. the flowers all got ruined, so the sentients no longer had the thing that would maintain their sentience and ability to not be part of a hivemind. Then the Orokin pretend like the sabotage was actually an aggressive action against them and boom, we're traitors.||

[dawn shoal]

no, Itzal just said he was talking to an archimedian, and that the archimedian was Ballas' consort. it's ||just Margulis here, and since she hasn't died just yet|| Ballas probably isn't specifically plotting the Natah situation with Hunhow yet.

[smoky solstice]

||Second Dream explicitly states that the Orokin used Margulis' work after she was executed to create Transference, here it seems like was a thing for a while before she got killed. That's the main one that's an explicit contradiction.||

[bright temple]

literally all the other tenno

[outer snow]

We went to sleep in the pods and woke up in the second dream which is us controlling the Warframes from the pods.

[oak horizon]

no we went to sleep until prologue then controlled frames from second dream

[outer snow]

And us

[outer snow]

No

[oak horizon]

not before

[smoky solstice]

we did too to be clear, just because we were dreaming doesn't mean we weren't capable of following orders and doing actions

we just don't remember any of it

[outer snow]

The Tenno were sleep in the Lua pods, but controlling the Warframes from the pods was like a lucid, second dream. We felt awake.

[smoky solstice]

because we sure as hell helped lotus do a lot of stuff during the old war, stuff that we don't remember doing at all

[oak horizon]

i dont mean to be rude but you guys do realize this is the point where we go to our centuries long sleep and forget shit right? not become a remote pilot for another century and then go eternal sleep

[dawn shoal]

||oh yeah, I think that's been contradicted/retconned for a while already considering The Silver Grove and some other quests, at least as far as I can tell? Most of the time I see Margulis and Transference referenced I'm pretty sure its that Transference was her work and she created it herself, outside of the Second Dream||

[prime mural]

So for 1 we know it seemed natural, but a ton of orokin were against it?

The only think that is wishy washy is if they did a coordinated effort with the rebels or not?

Also what exactly happened to the flowers I was confused? We used self destruction on her base and took them out by "accident"?

[smoky solstice]

I think the dream margulis put us under is different from the second dream, which happens from the prologue. Like the prologue-second dream is the second dream, before that is the initial dream. I mean I'm assuming they're different based off the fact that we remember nothing that happens during it

[outer snow]

I mean, yes and no. Yes, this is where the Tenno go to sleep in the pods. But we still control the Warframes from the pods.

[dawn shoal]

that does make sense? though that would mean that ||The Night of the Naga Drums was the other Tenno who weren't in the Dream, at least yet, and we didn't end up participating. which is niether here nor there as a point, but i am a little disappointed that it means we probably won't see it more directly in the game XD||

[smoky solstice]

||our whole mission was a lie, what we did ended up just ruining all the flowers, it didn't serve some purpose to put down the rebellion or whatever and we were set up||

[outer snow]

The end of The Second Dream explains what the second dream is and why it's a second dream. The Tenno being in the pods is the first dream. The Tenno controlling the Warframes is the second dream.

[smoky solstice]

but they were all in the dream, that's the point, no? all the tenno are in a dream, including us, and the orokin suddenly don't know where the hell we are

lotus hides us among everybody

that's why she gets killed

[prime mural]

If that's the case why were we necessary?

Also the sadest part to me was the sentient archimedian. I really liked that guy he seemed so genuine. Also how do I do spoilers? /spoiler

[vernal heart]

why doesn't this priest dude wanna talk to me

[outer snow]

Not Lotus. Margulis.

[prime mural]

You insulted his religion? Wallee

[dawn shoal]

but then how does ||the Night of the Naga Drums happen, if all of us who did it are asleep?||

[smoky solstice]

yeah but the tenno were controlling the warframes back when the orokin were still a thing, aka well before the game started. I'm assuming she said the line after explaining transference to say that what we felt at the beginning of the game, while it felt like waking up, was just us controlling the warframes.

[oak horizon]

second dream was nigh impenetrable until events of the game story so how did we get to go to a deep slumber while we were already 2nd dream... we are trying to rationalize how we were in the dream yet managed to go on a warpath after this event is right now questionable

[outer snow]

Yes, all the Tenno are in the second dream up through The Second Dream quest.

[smoky solstice]

because they're controlling the warframes

[smoky solstice]

well no, because at some point they stopped controlling the warframes and came back up when the game starts

[outer snow]

Go read the wiki regarding the Lotus quotes at the end of The Second Dream quest. Lotus explains what the second dream is and why it's a second dream.

[smoky solstice]

and they don't remember anything that happens before we start the game

[vernal heart]

brother this man belongs in an asylum, he's self-flagellating at the altar in the center of a dimly lit, cathedral-looking room

[outer snow]

Yeah. That's a good point. The Second Dream technically ends when the Lotus puts the Warframes to sleep and it starts again once the Warframes wake up again.

[prime mural]

I forgot which 1 it was but that's Indonesian or Ethiopian Christians during passover

[vernal heart]

while there are 2 people, who can't not have him in their periphery, are right there in the same room

[smoky solstice]

I mean I guess the concept of this type of control can be the second dream, either way though, there did seem to be a previous second dream for some duration after margulis' execution

actually wait, all of this is so weird now

[outer snow]

Yep. The Second Dream is the Tenno controlling the Warframes from the Lua pods.

[prime mural]

So what was the first dream? The coma the orpkin has us in in the beginning when they were afraid of us?

When we were void demons to them?

Right after the zariman accident#m

[smoky solstice]

I assume the "first dream" is us like falling asleep, the second dream is what we go through after we "wake up"

[outer snow]

The Operators being sleep in the pods is the first dream, basically a normal dream.

[prime mural]

I Genuinely hope DE didn't accidentally create a lore hole

[brazen seal]

the second dream were Lotus putting us within the void in Lua btw to end the old war and the tenno slept for 1000 years

[smoky solstice]

wait, what if ||the lotus put all the tenno to sleep, then margulis got executed, then the orokin had to like get the transference tech back up through margulis' research and that's how second dream was retconned. Like rather than the combat side of things only being introduced after her death, it was there before, then she took it offline in order to protect the operator, then the orokin put them back online.||

[outer snow]

The Natah Quest says that, but The Second Dream retcons that.

[misty bronze]

playing the old peace rn, are sentients supposed to somewhat be an allegory for lgbt ppl

cuz adis literally is just aids but spelled differently

[brazen seal]

and where does it retcon ?

[outer snow]

No. The Lotus didn't exist when the Tenno were put to sleep. Margulis puts the Tenno in pods.

[misty bronze]

and the mask scene and allat

[silk atlas]

What retcon?

[smoky solstice]

I don't think the sentients are allegories for anyone irl but there are a lot of similarities with like the way minorities in general are treated in a lot of areas

[smoky solstice]

ok, I meant margulis, my bad

[misty bronze]

yeah i only made the connection to lgbt ppl due to aids famously being fearmongered in the 2000s

[oak horizon]

arent we supposed to understand from the apology scene in old peace that the "marguilis" that slept us is lotus and tenno is apologizing to her for realizing it?

[smoky solstice]

yeah, it's just not really at all a comparison that should be made due to certain details I don't want to talk about since idk how far into the quest you are

[dawn shoal]

I think it was us controlling warframes outside of the pods, because technically at least Transference can be seen as us dreaming we are the Warframes in order to use our powers to pilot them. The Second Dream adds another layer by us doing it while we are actually in a sleep, specifically the cryosleep pods.

[misty bronze]

alrighty ty

[smoky solstice]

||honestly that did strike me as odd, but I think it might just be residual emotions and that lotus occupies kinda the same space in the operator's mind as margulis||

[oak horizon]

if it was residual emotions tennos residual emotion is anger and feeling of betrayed still when he is sleeping due to the indirect genocide he did

not remorse or anything to say "tehe sorry i rushed into your room that day"

he realized that despite being sentient lotus pretending to be marq puts tenno to sleep before tenno goes and murders ballas

[dawn shoal]

i don't think that's necessarily true, there is lore that states that what is left of Margulis exists within the mind of Natah/The Lotus (in the Khora Prime trailer) and I don't think that's been contradicted or retconned to prevent me from assuming that ||Operator could have intended what they said for that bit of Margulis left over, not to mention they are just coming out of realizing something immensely traumatic and could have just instinctively reacted to the Lotus looking like Margulis. I think it's also understood that in any sort of memory or flashback the Lotus wore her helmet, while Margulis didn't.||

[oak horizon]

wait i just realized lotus didnt use my prefered skin this cutscene

it was standard lotus

[outer snow]

What the second dream is. The Natah Quest has Lotus says that the second dream is when she hides the Warframes (basically, puts the in pods). The Second Dream has Lotus say that the second dream is when the Tenno "woke up" in the Warframes.

[dawn shoal]

actually even though it might work against my point i gotta say that might be a bug in your game, while my preferred skin is the Lotus it's the radiant Lotus with my custom color palette and it used that for me

[oak horizon]

if it is working as intended the marquilis skin doesnt use a helmet just saying

[dawn shoal]

actually i'm not gonna lie I think the Natah quest -> Second dream quest difference isn't so much a retcon as it is the Lotus just lied to us to try to keep us from finding out who we were before she was ready, if at all.

[outer snow]

Nope. That's Margulis. Lotus has Margulis's memories and assumes her identity, but she is not Margulis.

[brazen seal]

Lotus hiddes us putting Lua within the void
out of sentient reach
putting a end to the old war
that's the second dream

The Old peace ||much likely ends with us going into the first dream||

||where we learn to control the warframes by distance||

[dawn shoal]

that does work just as well to explain it as far as i can imagine atm

[spice wedge]

But what was crazy seeing how zariman ship appeared.

[outer snow]

That's what the Natah Quest says, but it's not what The Second Dream says.

Lotus: "The Orokin murdered Margulis - used her work to create 'Transference'. Your mind - projected into a surrogate, strong enough to withstand your power. It felt like waking up, but it was just a lucid - second dream[sic]"

[sly pagoda]

some text from the church post quest for the translation crew.

[sly ferry]

yall good in here? or having a midlife crisis over all the loredumps this update

so btw

the "hivemind" that sentients revert to without the blooms

is that referring to hunhow?

cuz I am pretty sure he has no access to those

and herefers to the sentients inthe origin system as his fragments

[slate rapids]

thats one thing im confused about with it yeah
was the hivemind made up of praghasa and hunhow, or is it something different

[sly ferry]

but then there's the whole new war

where the sentients were under ballas and erra's command

hm, maybe they don't mean hivemind in a literal sense?

[slate rapids]

i assumed the hivemind was gone and after they run out of flowers theyre seeking out instructions since they arent recieving any

[silk atlas]

They mentioned that they get antsy for orders if the Sentients don't get any after they regress from not having Xenobloom

[slate rapids]

but like, before the flowers was it just hunhow?

[sly ferry]

we'll probably get way more about this next year with the actual tau update

[slate rapids]

hopefully

[silk atlas]

No, there's just a bunch of Sentients. No reason they'd send just one guy lol

[sly ferry]

the sentients started from a single starfish

[silk atlas]

WHAT.

[sly ferry]

or at least that's what I got from endyd20 reading the corpus scan entry

at simaris

[livid sentinel]

sorry but what is the reason for the existence of the devil triad protoframes ? and what is the cathedral ?

[silk atlas]

They can just make more

[slate rapids]

thats sentinels

sentients were orokin built

[silk atlas]

If he's talking about the Detron Crewman entry, no, that's talking about Sentients

[slate rapids]

oh, that one

[sly ferry]

no, sentinels were just found somewhere and were friendly with thetenno for no reason

but yeah there was the one sentient sent on the way to tau to endlessly selfreplicate

[silk atlas]

It was never said that they only sent one Sentient over dude...

[livid sentinel]

can anyone explain to me the new protoframes existence please ? i get it that entrati probably went to find lyon and marie in 1999 and injected them with helminth, but wtf is rauth ?

[slate rapids]

anyway what i meant by this is that they mention the hivemind, and they mention being given orders by it
hunhow doesnt seem to have any issues with needing flowers, and he controls a lot of sentients, so was he the hivemind? or is there something else going on there

[sly ferry]

some ahole who albrecht had beef with Iguess

[livid sentinel]

no ?

he is an orokin

[sly ferry]

cuz roathe does mention orokin houses fighting each other

[livid sentinel]

how is he in 1999

[silk atlas]

Time travel

[sly ferry]

same way albrecht, another orokin, got there

[livid sentinel]

how

[sly ferry]

the same orokin who turned him into proto uriel

[silk atlas]

A time machine.

[sly ferry]

albrecht brought him there

[livid sentinel]

so there's no solid in game explanation ? DE just shat the cathedral and the protos into it + adding uriel in new quest, this is so messy

[sly ferry]

dude

[brazen seal]

Alright, the second dream might actually be when they put the tenno in the pod in Lua

[silk atlas]

We already know Albrecht had access to time travel tech.

That's literally the entire point of 1999

Why is it so farfetched to believe he dragged some other idiot with him

[livid sentinel]

yeah but how does rauth exist as a protoframe ?

[silk atlas]

Brother.

[sly ferry]

albrecht took protoframe serum needle and injected roath with it

[silk atlas]

The same way the rest exist, Albrecht stuck 'em with edited Helminth strains.

[sly ferry]

literally his first dialogue

[sullen island]

lol

[silk atlas]

Yeah Roathe's first KIM convo flat out mentions Albrecht sticking him.

[livid sentinel]

so albrecht time traveled to some orokin time era period where roath was just an orokin dude, injected him, then brought him back to 1999 ? then in another timeline, roath actually became a warframe, but fully evolved, to fight in tau war

convoluted

[silk atlas]

No.

[sly ferry]

oh my god he thinks protos and warframes are the same

[livid sentinel]

no

i don't and haven't said anything that suggests so. omg he can't read

[sly ferry]

he's called the devil of tau not because he was literally uriel

but because he was an exceptionally cruel general

[silk atlas]

There's no "another timeline" here. It's the same time time. Albrecht just had Roathe somewhere, then Albrecht decided to stick him with Helminth and then send them back to the nuns.

[livid sentinel]

so what is uriel ?

[slate rapids]

roathe is also mentioned in old peace iirc as one of the orokin who were working with the rebels i think?
so presumably he gets captured, entrati messes around with him, sends him back in time

[sly ferry]

a warframe

[livid sentinel]

made from whom

[slate rapids]

a warframe ballas made at some point for ???? reasons

[sly ferry]

a regular, non protoframe warframe

[silk atlas]

A Warframe. Roathe is not the only Uriel.

[silk atlas]

From Roathe's commrades.

[livid sentinel]

there had to be a first uriel

[sly ferry]

we do not know cuz roathe told us he would only tell us the original uriel's name on his deathbed

[silk atlas]

It doesn't matter who the first Uriel is. Just that it wasn't him.

[livid sentinel]

that's confusing

[silk atlas]

How

[sly ferry]

how

[livid sentinel]

but i get it

[slate rapids]

its the same as most other warframes

we dont know who the first, idk nidus was

[silk atlas]

Excalibur

[sly ferry]

just like arthur isn't the original excalibur, roathe isn't the original uriel

[fast dew]

I mean it certainly suggested it

[silk atlas]

If you forget the whole "Albrecht had to have edited the original Helminth strain of an already existing Warframe to make Protos", sure

[slate rapids]

yeah but the question here is about the person who became the warframe which is unknown for the majority of the cast

[sly ferry]

by "it" you mean roathe saying he remembers uriel prime and won't ever say the name of the man who became him until his deathbed?

that convo is replayable in the cathedrale

[silk atlas]

Oh you mean who Nidus would've been? Then yeah we're on the same page, they're unknown and not really important.

[livid sentinel]

uriel helminth created, injected into some rando roath's army orokin era dude = first uriel is born, then many others. then entrati time travels to get raoth, inject him with the same serum, turning him into an uriel.

that's far fetched lore

[dawn shoal]

can someone remind me where it was first referenced that the tenno blinded margulis? if that's a thing then the wikis are failing me and leaving that whole thing out; i'm convinced it was in the potential Lotus responses she could give you at the end of the Second Dream in that conversation

[slate rapids]

didnt need to time travel for roathe, he was there on tau

[sly ferry]

that's literally what happened to all the protoframes except maybe flare

now flare may be a bootstrap paradox

[livid sentinel]

i know but they weren't introduced in their full warframe form 5min before seeing the protoframe. which made it less confusing

[silk atlas]

Oh my God it wasn't random. Them being made into Uriel's was done as a way to honor Roathe. This is stuff he flat out tells you when you go to talk to him. Also time travel happened after he was stuck.

[sly ferry]

neither was roathe?

[livid sentinel]

doesn't matter. dude got turned into same warframe that was made to honor him.

[livid sentinel]

yes he was

[sly ferry]

where was he introduced in the questas full uriel

[livid sentinel]

old peace quest

[silk atlas]

You played as the Uriel in the quest

[livid sentinel]

not roath per se, but uriel

[sly ferry]

that was a generic uriel warframe

[livid sentinel]

i know

[sly ferry]

not roath as a full uriel

[livid sentinel]

i

KNOW

[sly ferry]

then why are you saying it's confusing

[livid sentinel]

because for a lore's neophyte, it is.

[silk atlas]

It seemed you had a lot of wires crossed when it came to the whole time travel stuff Albrecht was doing

[livid sentinel]

can't blame me for it

but yes

also, what's the reason for the cathedral poppin in sanctum anatomica ?

[slate rapids]

its further in the past, i assume the dialogue from the characters explains why entrati chose then

[silk atlas]

You should just do the KIM convos with Roathe and the gang.

[livid sentinel]

right

[winged creek]

I love the Triad banter.

I wish i wasn't dating Eleanor right now, though. Oh well.

And no, i will not break up with her.

[silk atlas]

For future reference, we have not gone into any other timelines besides fiddling around with Duviri (and even then the timeline Duviri comes from is just entirely gone). The rest has just been time travel.

[winged creek]

I haven't done that to any of them and i will not start now.

[livid sentinel]

well tbf i expected more from the side of the update. more protoframe content, like with the hex. many cool things in the old peace quest but i'm not one for emotional songs and stories like that. kinda disapointed to only be met with vendors

[winged creek]

Woops, wrong channel.

[bold zenith]

Can I ask lore-related question about thee latest quest here?

[dark compass]

Only vendors? Wouldn't Kim dialogues amount to anything?

[dark compass]

I imagine so, as long as it's spoiled tagged

[livid sentinel]

they do but they don't fulfill the potential that the flavour and design of the new protoframes and their theme could bring

[bold zenith]

I am made of stoopid:
||What does Ballas gain from doing what he did in the Old Piece?||

[dark compass]

Yeah they aren't really the focus of this update

[reef radish]

Okay, so ||what exactly did we find that the Indifference was so keen on us not finding||?

[livid sentinel]

not saying they should, but a little more couldn't have hurt.

[dark compass]

Fair enough, maybe with the actual tau update?

Descendia has them talk in spades though

[silk atlas]

If Tenno win then he stays as Orokin and feigns ignorance of the situation.
If Sentients, win then he can fall back to the Sentients to betray the Orokin and lead from there.
This has been his entire plan from the start.

[livid sentinel]

did i miss something during the teasing or was i not the only one to think we were actually going to tau for this update

[silk atlas]

||I guess literally anything about how our past was going||

[silk atlas]

Yes, they mentioned Tau proper was next year when they revealed The Old Peace in Tennocon.

[livid sentinel]

ah very cool ty

tbh the best part of the update lore wise to me was seeing the grineer as the orokin foot soldiers

[dark compass]

This update is basically like Whispers in the Walls for 1999. A setup for an actual big story piece

[livid sentinel]

grineers in their prime

[stiff beacon]

Yea next year though suspiciously not next winter

[bold zenith]

So basically he needed the war to continue so he could advance, during peice he was feeling stagnant?

[livid sentinel]

but yeah, they are actually managing to merge 1999 and sentients, which is quite the accomplishement lol

[dark compass]

And they will show something new warframe related at TGA.

Tau might be closer than we think

[swift sentinel]

You're correct, Lotus mentions it at the end of the Second Dream when speaking with the Operator.

[stiff beacon]

Yep tau is in sight

[livid sentinel]

to think the existence of orokins stems from excal prime's design as a golden premnium version for founders

[silk atlas]

Less that, more that if he was the one who made sure to trick other people to do the wrong things (right for him) then he doesn't have any suspicion put on him

[sick nebula]

So, I think there's something Ballas was trying to ||blame us for||, but I'm not sure what it is. And that's why ||Margulis erased some of our memories||?

[silk atlas]

||We killed off all the Xenoblooms||

[waxen mesa]

I would think ||the disruption of peace on tau. Ballas framed it as a rebellious tenno burning the flowers instead of saving them||

[dark compass]

||End goal was probably always Narmer||

[sick nebula]

So, if I'm understanding the timeline correctly:

1. Zariman oopsie
2. Sentients go to Tau
3. The Old War
4. The Old Peace
5. Tenno enter The Second Dream, because raisins
6. Margulis x Jade Light, as explained in TSD
7. Ballas x Hunhow
8. Natah ❤️ Tenno
9. ???
10. Awakening

[waxen mesa]

||End goal was orokin supremecy. He refused to share Tau with the sentients.||

[dark compass]

Ah right

I should stop with shitpost answers

There's more shit than post

[waxen mesa]

i mean 9 would be the night of naga drums and resleeping the tenno to wait out the power vacuum

[outer snow]

The quest is set before Ballas betrays the Orokin, because Margulis is still alive. Ballas betrays the Orokin because of Margulis's death.

[sick nebula]

I think the Drums might be before Natah defected to the Tenno

[waxen mesa]

nah it was probably after

just because she likes the tenno doesn't mean she suddenly likes the orokin

[outer snow]

Adis. For whatever reason, Lotus believes it is necessary to find another Sentient like Adis.

[waxen mesa]

healing hunhow?

fixing erra?

[outer snow]

That, I don't know. I just know that's what she focuses on, and that's what she says we have to find.

[waxen mesa]

I imagine ||Natah, hunhow, and erra showing up in Tau would do wonders to convince any sentients there that we are friendly. then we have a 2nd army to fight the indifference||

[dawn shoal]

i'm glad i wasn't losing it XD

[silk atlas]

He's still working with the rebels so he comes out on top either way. If the Orokin mopped the Sentients then he'd just be like "oop okay guess that's that" and probably try to get the Tenno to kill off the rest of the Seven that way.

He was still bitter at Margulis before she was killed for wanting to love the Tenno more than him

[supple tide]

Spoiler maybe. My Tenno look a bit different here

[humble sierra]

Looks like the default from the demo

[fast dew]

Ballas x hunhow is infinitely funny to me

[slate rapids]

||giving hunhow xenoblooms so he can escape uranus would be kinda peak cinema i think||

[fast dew]

Makes it sounds like a ship lol

[pale cedar]

Zariman is after Sentients went on their way to Tau

[proper barn]

Naga drums/the fall would be 9.

I still want us to experience the Naga drums at some point.

[sick nebula]

That was my intent.

He writes a secret love letter~ ❤️

[fast dew]

If its any worth, i have seen Ballas x erra. It was lowkey cute as hell

And
Uh. And ballas x parvos. That was something

[slate rapids]

worlds most toxic yaoi

[dark compass]

Never ask an orokin supremacist the species of his boyfriend

[fast dew]

exactlyyy

[humble sierra]

Alright, so if Adis is dead and the Sentients aren't really "Sentient" anymore, I wonder what's on Tau 2026? Just Orokin colonies?

[slate rapids]

i assume its the remaining sentients

whatever happened to them isnt entirely clear yet

[dark compass]

Hunhow does have his mind

so i doubt theyre all just brainless now, at least not all of them

[indigo crescent]

does anyone know how long it takes to finish The old peace?

[slate rapids]

erra too, before he died

[dark compass]

yep

[slate rapids]

wonder if itll be like, sentients mad max out there fighting over left over flowers
thatd be a weird way to take it

[dark compass]

civil war over leftover flowers?

[dawn shoal]

it sounds like without the flowers they're still Sentient - just sentient beings within a hive mind that lets them be susceptible to taking and carrying out orders whether they want to or not, the flowers doing for them in reverse of what Kuva does for the Dax - keeps them from being compelled to obey rather than forces them to be compelled to obey orders. i think we've been seeing some level of that this whole time since Hunhow has shown up. He's the big/powerful/top of his own hivemind of drones and the sentients, along with Erra, Natah, Praghasa when she was alive, and perhaps the Archons, and most if not all of the other Sentients we see are within that hivemind at some level. They would probably still be connected to the Tau one across space if Hunhow hadn't cut them off and severed the Solar Rail.

[dark compass]

fair point

[slate rapids]

makes sense yeah

[dark compass]

they still have their sentience, just in a hivemind

no individuality or at least barely any

[dawn shoal]

Basically I imagine the sentients and humans there are probably still fighting. maybe they've formed different factions than simply orokin and sentient by now, maybe not. maybe they're at peace with each other and in a desperate war for survival against an onslaught of murmur for all we know lol we'll just have to see

[slate rapids]

it does say the flowers amplified the minds already forming or however they worded it

[slate rapids]

with how much wally seems to hate the idea of us going to tau, i could totally see that last option being true

[dawn shoal]

yeah, and Itzal has a moment where he ||talks about their settlement being the place where all the Sentient minds that were growing on the journey over from the Origin System were born, so they definitely adapted into Sentience on the way there and then sometime after the Old War had started discovered the xenoflower's effects, leading to the Old Peace I suppose||

[dark compass]

the radiation thing has not been brought up in old peace

this is definitely coming back in tau

[dawn shoal]

there's void shenanigans going on there that we only started to catch onto for sure lol. ||Wally really did start to get into us really quick at the end, we almost went full Rell to the point where we're saying "rap tap tap" even if we might not totally understand what it means yet||

cause that line was absolutely a DIRECT reference to the fight with ||Rell in Chains of Harrow||

[dark compass]

maybe wally needs one of those fused bodies

he did possess a vessel once

[dawn shoal]

okay so hear me out on that radiation: ||Archon Shards are described as being sources of "anti-entropic radiation" with Void energy being energy very much themed around entropy. Archon shards heal Sentient just like Adis did, and Adis "sent his light along with us". We have two opposing "lights" within us according to Isleweaver dialogue/lore and Old Peace dialogue/lore. The anti-entropic energy of the Sentients, that Adis was able to use to heal them, is now uniquely our Operator's. If Wally could get our "light" like he wants to (going with the theory that when we offered him our flashlight on the Zariman, he pulled a trickster god move and made a deal with us for another kind of light we had), he essentially has a convenient loophole/technicality into gaining access to the type of power that poses the greatest threat and is antithetical to his. It's part of why he wants us in particular so much over anyone else other than Albrecht Entrati for his finger back. Us going back to Tau gives us not just an ally in Entrati in resisting him directly but also takes us directly back to the place where that anti-entropic energy that sounds like a threat to him originates from, so of course he's as against us trying to find a way there as he was to Entrati escaping him the first time.||

the idea of "fused body" set off a chain of thoughts there lol.

[slate rapids]

ohh

ohhhhhhhh no

[dawn shoal]

ikr

it looks Bad

[dark compass]

so basically

||our revive mechanic might hurt Wally||

[ashen pulsar]

is it just a lore gameplay disconnect that we can have incarnons and stuff in perita

[dawn shoal]

that is not something i thought of at all till you said it BUT it does make perfect sense that it would

[dark compass]

if we go by this theory, now we might actually assume that we know what said light was

[dawn shoal]

yeah pretty much. i guess they could have limited it to only using lore stuff that makes sense but like most anyone can see how that's not fun XD

[slate rapids]

good excuse to make more use of my slot machine prime though

[dark compass]

and more so, why the deal was "altered"

[dawn shoal]

True, before we just knew that the Tenno had light from their Void power (from Quinn in Angels of the Zariman), but we got that from Wally in the first place and giving it to us in a deal to just take it back doesn't make a lot of sense as something that would benefit him

unless he had a specific purpose for us, which also would require something specific we could do for him anyways

[cloud igloo]

i wonder what (if any) implications some arcanes giving +1 revive has

[dark compass]

well now we also have sentient arcanes for tauron strikes

[cloud igloo]

oh true, and they look vastly different?

[dark compass]

yeah

they also have a name in diff language

[cloud igloo]

its, supposedly, the Sentient language no?

[dark compass]

seems to be

[cloud igloo]

Adis speaks like a non-native english speaker adapting their mother-tongue's syntax to english words

[slate rapids]

its possible arcane adaptors were originally sentient tech or something maybe

[cloud igloo]

||but didnt the original zariman crew fail to get to tau first? and then we went there, after the deal with wally||

[cloud igloo]

ooooh true, arcane adaptors for weapons look very... sentient-biological

neat

[silk atlas]

We failed to get to Tau on the Zariman, got rescued, and then went to Tau after the Sentients got the rail set up and Old War part 1 moved on to Old Peace

[slate rapids]

mm yeah true, we wouldnt have that light when wally said that

[cloud igloo]

yeah my point was, we didnt have "the light" at the time of the deal

[daring copper]

so ballas controlled erra because erra didnt eat the flowers for long?

[cloud igloo]

i soooo hope they expand on what the xenoflora is

[lean garden]

No, ballas controlled erra because erra was stupid, and ballas is a manipulator supreme

[ashen pulsar]

fair

[cloud igloo]

reminds me of Pluribus, but like. the opposite. Aliens giving individuality, not hive-mind

[dawn shoal]

yes, but Wally is a void god who would, if not for lost power from the missing finger, have the power to exist within and influence all of time and space all at once, and even though he's unable to manipulate causality at the moment he presumably may still have some capability to see the future. Alternatively, he didn't make the deal for that originally and is very opportunistic, which i think also fits.

[cloud igloo]

oo i like this line of thinking

[dark compass]

i mean we literally witness him altering the deal

[lean garden]

For something that can "see" the future the fact that its lost twice isnt helping that idea

[dark compass]

so it makes sense

[cloud igloo]

when was that? i forgor

[little meteor]

Think of Erra nath unkhow as the hive god in destiny 2
The three of them are linked to the same hive mind but still have their own higher sentience

[pine orchid]

surely just because they can see the future, doesn't mean he's looking all the time

[dark compass]

i think it happened in whispers

when we got a hold of the grimoire

[cloud igloo]

tbh Time flowing is such a human construct /s but not really /s

[lean garden]

its not really altering the deal tho

[dark compass]

https://tenor.com/view/druski-shrug-idk-iono-hands-up-gif-7122581203490458147

[lean garden]

all he did was say we owe him, but he never ever specified what we owed originally

[pine orchid]

haven't you heard of eternalism? time is a cube frame! Xd

[lean garden]

so like, its one blank cheque from the deal onwards

[cloud igloo]

kekek

[dawn shoal]

yeah that makes the most sense out of anything just because of the altering

[dawn shoal]

yeah that is a really good point and another reason why him just being opportunistic makes sense out of the two

[dark compass]

its the indiffirence, it doesnt actually care about the rules

[leaden parrot]

ok, i'm playing the old peace and is it just me or does margulis' blinded face genuinely flash on the screen when lotus reconnects the cables or am i tripping??

[cloud igloo]

i think it does

[leaden parrot]

i swear on my yeezys i saw it for a nanosecond

[dawn shoal]

which really could be him being opportunistic/leaving things open, or the grimoire somehow did count as part of the deal originally, i suppose

[cloud igloo]

makes sense, us scarring her traumatized both of us, and the lotus * is connected to us
and lotus is a standin for margulis

[dawn shoal]

like i said, trickster god shenangigans lol

[lean garden]

opportunistic it feels.

[scenic depot]

soo

why is the ascaris prime an ascaris negator prime

[dawn shoal]

same piece of equipment, but one was redesigned for a different effect i'd guess, though it's not comfirmable as far as ive seen

[leaden parrot]

i just saw margulis enter the lift we came out of, talking to a cephalon drone

[cloud igloo]

for familiarity XD
or just "wire it opposite" like the trope of "reverse polarity = reverse effect"

[leaden parrot]

ok, lightning theory: do you guys think lotus is reliving this same history at the same time as us as margulis through the connection she makes with the wires?

[cloud igloo]

yeah, its the owl guy, shes telling him to keep an eye out cause she doesnt trust ballas

[cloud igloo]

thats my read of the situation, yes

[leaden parrot]

no, my eyes might be wrong, but i think it looked more like ordis than the owl one

[lean garden]

I say no

through the quest she and loid both heavily imply they cant see what you see

[cloud igloo]

oh right, i forgor

[leaden parrot]

fair

[lean garden]

and uh, marge aint seeing thats for sure

[cloud igloo]

iguess shes just...... powering? us? somehow?

[leaden parrot]

yeah...

[lean garden]

shes giving us the VR headset treatment

[leaden parrot]

lol

[humble sierra]

OMG (roathe chat 2) ||FATHER NAME DROP||

[cloud igloo]

||father?||

like ||entrati father|| ?

[leaden parrot]

"that's it, kiddo... limb from limb..." wally is here

although i shouldn't be surprised, we ARE in tau

[cloud igloo]

well, hes there cause old peace is after the zariman accident

[leaden parrot]

yeah,but i didn't expect him to interact with us so soon

[cloud igloo]

To be fair, we dont know how "soon" that is

[leaden parrot]

it's as soon as first deployment

[cloud igloo]

oh i meant

[leaden parrot]

i guess the voiceline may differ depending on your actions

[cloud igloo]

how soon after zariman

[leaden parrot]

ah

[cloud igloo]

wait a sec
Roathe just dropped the granma's name on me

[lean garden]

well, TSD did mention the voices

[cloud igloo]

was that known or

[fast dew]

Yeah, Dagath

[leaden parrot]

who's roathe?

[lean garden]

what dagath?

[cloud igloo]

uriel's proto, the last orokin as far as we know

[leaden parrot]

oh

[cunning tapir]

Dagath? Yeah. That's been known for a while.

[cloud igloo]

ah. im not maxed yet kekw

[humble sierra]

The first bit of the chat

[humble sierra]

She doesn't tell you if you max Entrati Standing, you learn it another way

[cloud igloo]

how?

[humble sierra]

Via Dagath's Hollow

[cloud igloo]

is there a console or sth there?

[humble sierra]

Yep

I recommend going through the story, it's Dagath's lore and how she got her name

[leaden parrot]

yep

[cloud igloo]

damn, must've missed it. certainly will do

[fast dew]

Delicous. And also, any loid chat?

[humble sierra]

Sadly no

[fast dew]

SHIT

[humble sierra]

||But he was looming over Roathe when typing. Very rude.||

[cloud igloo]

heres the other dialogue tree, bit, for anyone curious

[fast dew]

Thats actually delightful

Loid glaring at Roathe making sure he aint gonna do shit to us

[leaden parrot]

oop, hotfix 1 inbound

[humble sierra]

You can also ||"Express Interest" in Roathe|| during the chat with Marie

[fast dew]

Oh we saw that!

[humble sierra]

REDTEXT NOOOOOOO

[wise quiver]

XD

But holy shit, i've been avoiding dev streams and etc to not get caught up in hype, finding out that this is memories of tau not like some eternalism alternative timeline is bonkers wild

[fast dew]

Im so upset over no more loid chat

[tight plank]

Wow that ending to the Old Peace was such a disappointment in regards to the fate of Adis.

[fast dew]

Also, the children? As if son and daughter know??

[cloud igloo]

i dont know if im huffing copium or not but i dont think thats the last well see of him

[lean garden]

what you expected ||adis to live?||

[cloud igloo]

true, he was set up to die (obviously) but

[humble sierra]

Maybe as in Operator? The Cavia?

[strong crypt]

I genuinely thought he was going to become Hunhow.

[cunning tapir]

I mean......Idk if this is wishful thinking but isn't it possible for him to be revived with the use of Archon shards?

[humble sierra]

If the children know, suddenly Daughter listening to OnLyne makes a lot of sense

[strong crypt]

forgot at some point that Hunhow was one of the original sentients probably

[cloud igloo]

nah He remains The Great an Terrible Hunhow /s

[humble sierra]

Possibly, could be pretty peak

[lean garden]

"My father was a carpenter" hunhow?

[cloud igloo]

:kekw

[wise quiver]

timelines are weird now

[tight plank]

I am not sure what I expected, I originally didn't like his character when they first showed the Old Peace during Tennocon and he didn't grow much on me during the quest. In fact some of the interactions felt forced but not sure I wanted his character to die.

[cloud igloo]

i feel like he'll serve a greater purpose soon

watch next update be us going to Tau now, in the present

[silk atlas]

That'd involve us remembering where his body is if they even last that long, so fat chance.

[wise quiver]

I initially thought ballas pushed for the sentients specifically because of margulis stepping in to protect them from the orokin and getting Jade Lighted because of it. But this...now...wew.

[left kernel]

does helping dalko matter?

[strange turtle]

So far no

Might have an impact in Tau

But it’d be a minor one

[wise quiver]

It could be a big one.

[strange turtle]

Nope

[lean garden]

well, the sentients were made before the zariman, so ballas couldnt have been motivated by margulis

[wise quiver]

Why not? it's one of the few choices we get to make.

[wise quiver]

I keep seeing that but no one can show me the proof.

[strange turtle]

They say it in an interview

[silk atlas]

The choices we make have to be small because then DE would have players missing out on content they'd want to do. A lot of people still can't handle the whole naming Lotus thing.

[misty salmon]

dev time is expensive, having major divergences increases costs. It also tends to create a "best" option and a lot of people angry that they didn't get it.

[tight plank]

Most of the quest was pretty good but the Orokin betrayal at the end just felt like such a lazy copout and made the whole fight with Anarch Galastra feel pretty pointless.

[strong crypt]

I imagine Ballas' motivations at this point in the timeline can be resumed to:

• the empire does not want to let the sentients have even an inch of sovereign land.
• he still hates the Tenno because his girlfriend loves the kids more than him.

[fast dew]

I mean. It seems that everyone is getting "unique" chats, some people are getting voice notes from Roathe, others aren't

[silk atlas]

Unique chats?

[lean garden]

its looking like its contingent on your entrati standing

which shouldnt be a seen as a minor thing

[fast dew]

Some aren't getting Father's name drop

[lean garden]

Lord knows how long you spent in the drift farming tokens

[fast dew]

Too long.

Too, too long.

[silk atlas]

Wouldn't that just be from taking different options?

[fast dew]

Nup

[silk atlas]

Which you can reset anyway when the KIM reset co- what

[woven estuary]

I got the family maxed out just before the update lmfao
guess I'm glad I did

[silk atlas]

If it's tied to Syndicate standing then that's something a person can fix by just doing the thing and then resetting

[tight plank]

I think it would have been a better ending if it turned out that Ballas was the one sponsoring Galastra and she were obeying his orders.

How did the Anarchs rebel anyway? Dax can't disobey the Kuva and they even mention this during the Old Peace quest.

[leaden parrot]

has anybody been able to translate the void tongue wally speaks when you return the second time?

[silk atlas]

This isn't "The Sun/Moon choices in dialogue change your Operator abilities" level of choice restriction.

[wise quiver]

And it's immeditately mentioned that "Dax can kill soldiers, just not the golden lords themselves."

[fast dew]

Doesn't seem to be. Its reliant on the entrati family standing and change depending on the previous day, which is much more punishing than the others who will still have the same chats (regardless of the choice the day before)

[lean garden]

there is like one unknown word

[wise quiver]

But also aren't the anarchs grineer mostly?

[strong crypt]

dax too

[lean garden]

ivbok is a word we have meaning for iirc

[leaden parrot]

holy cow

[silk atlas]

No, there's still Dax

[fast dew]

So if you chose something different than others, you won't get father's name drop regardless of the entrati family standing

[tight plank]

Yeah sure but they're attacking the transport carrying Ballas and those were Daxes during the quest.

[lean garden]

theyre not attacking ballas theyre attacking the transport

[tight plank]

Grineer don't show up until the ceremony.

[woven estuary]

It was called a Medical Transport during that quest

[lean garden]

plus like, ballas is in on it so

[dawn shoal]

i mean i was about to say "last blue and uninfested" but he is a protoframe and the Entrati are blue excepting albrecht so XD

[misty salmon]

||They do suggest that they're trying to disable the transport to threaten Ballas, and then maybe have him killed by a rogue sentient.||

[silk atlas]

Well, then that's just different choices having different lore anyway and you could just reset after to see other stuff.

[wise quiver]

Also, something that uh

The whol xenoflora and...hive-mind thing.

[lean garden]

we do see the hive mind in action in present day sentients

when all the sentient drones are part of a bigger sentient

[wise quiver]

Right, but also hunhow and the others are very...self?

[lean garden]

instead of individuals

[leaden parrot]

has it been confirmed yet that ballas appears in his "modern day" outfit in any of the lore before tau?

[lean garden]

theyre the locus

[slate rapids]

for lack of better terminology this makes hunhow the hive queen in the origin system

[tight plank]

Still doesn't explain why the Anarchs are rebelling in the first place. I get that Galastra didn't believe in the treaty but its not really explained why.

The Orokin also essentially does what she wanted anyway and then we just leave Tau?

[cloud igloo]

hear me out
racism /s

[wise quiver]

Depends on the answer you give to that sentient archimedian. They fought and bled in the war, only for the land they were fighting to claim to be given over to the enemy their kin bled for.

[lean garden]

the anarchs are rebelling because they have an executor backer (both in niktoh and ballas) gally wants the war to resume because all of Tau should belong to the Orokin

all for a damn moon

[wise quiver]

Also

[lean garden]

gally tells you in the egg that the promise of a home in tau was given away too soon

[wise quiver]

This may tie into kullervo's whole...thing about betrayal maybe?

[lean garden]

a damn moon

[tight plank]

That is so stupid... If you don't select that response then you don't know that. DE should let us pick all the choices.

[lean garden]

she literally told you this in the egg

like the first egg

thats why your operator had a choice to say it

[wise quiver]

The other option can be just as valid, but yeah what Bau said.

[misty salmon]

and again during one of the last battles, she wants that homestead manor she was promised.

[lean garden]

I didnt get that line, on account of wiping the floor with caliban immediately

[tight plank]

I picked the unknown option because I wasn't sure.

[lean garden]

thanks madurai

[misty salmon]

a place to have grandkids, and kubrows, and a long retirement.

[leaden parrot]

"slice, burn, maim. we love it when you get cut loose"

[lean garden]

smells like a royal we there

[leaden parrot]

suddenly wally adressing itself as a "group"

or that

[wise quiver]

Has...wally ever refered to themselves as an individual before?

[lean garden]

yea

[silk atlas]

I specifically let him live long enough to see what she had to say lmao

[lean garden]

literally first time you encounter wally in the war within

"you owe me"

[wise quiver]

True, fair, well after 1999 we do know there are like...what, two? of them? now?

[misty salmon]

... dangit Marie, you're going to make me brush up on my French to realize you're calling somebody a cow.

[lean garden]

nah still just the one