#Please help the poor Gunslingers

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

tight phoenix
#

I've tried building these guys a few times in team games and they are extremely lacklustre especially so in maps like supreme where there is a relatively small area for land units to fight.

I'll start with the pros of the unit.
Great DPS
Decent range
Decent speed
Health regeneration
Range increases with XP

And the bad
Terrible health pool for metal and energy cost

Imo that is the main problem with them and it means they get killed very easily by burst units such as T1 Janus and units that outrage them like T2 artiliary, hounds and Sheldon's. Additionally those units are much cheaper and you can get more of them.

What are other people's opinions, am I using these wrong, do they nerd a buff, are the maps I'm using them on just not thr right maps? How would be a cool way to buff them should they need it?

tall talon
#

theres already rework on the way, its just being stopped by all sorts of other things right now.

Ive seen videos of it though, looks great

tight phoenix
#

Cool, seems a little memey, at least they can murder anything that gets close, good for drops

west burrow
#

For myself, I honestly think they should take the place of the late t2 bot lab ranged unit for Armada, representing an expensive "stormtrooper" unit, something that has general high stats (movespeed, better than Hound range, good hp, good alpha damage but poor sustained dps, a personal jammer to stop them from being btfoed by long ranged units without support, but they are pricy) and Sharpshooter should be changed into a micro intensive playmaker unit like what the commando is for cortex

The videos Luna linked line up a lot with that notion, so I am happy to see thats the direction the unit is going in

scenic dagger
tall talon
# scenic dagger Is this Hornet's, or...?

Nope, this was made by someone before hornet even got on the scene XD its been awhile

Dont know who, just happened to have the file onhand for this very circumstance

obsidian gull
#

Gunslingers are potent if you rush them out very early T2 as they can decimate much of T1 and chase commanders down. I think people just lose their window of use on them. Also you mentioned Janus and Janus are just a menace in general due to their high alpha missiles they can fire and retreat from, so buffing lots of other units just because Janus is so potent seems like an adjustment for the wrong unit.

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I had a game not long ago where someone rushed one or two out against me and I got wrecked pretty badly with just my commander and T1 and felt useless. I didn't have Janus as an option though.

limber surge
red mica
opaque patrol
#

Doushibag is right, they're useful when you get them out super quickly once you get T2 botlab, and you want to mop up a busy T1 frontline. But they need heavy micro.

tight phoenix
#

More useful than T2 arty which is much cheaper?

opaque patrol
#

like mausers ? yes if you want to help your front quicker, mausers are very slow to reach the frontline. Long term, mausers are best of course, more range, and they're much cheaper.

tight phoenix
#

tbh... Unless the map was full of blocking terrain I'd never choose idk, 2k worth of gunslingers vs 2k worth of mousers

opaque patrol
#

I've seen it quite a bit from Lostdeadman on Strait, to clean up the frontline in late T1/early T2 stage

#

but he also does that coz it amuses him, though it is effective if you micro well

#

he just needs 2 or 3, you make them level up, and then you got a nice frontline squad. Gives you some time to switch to better units like starlights, or bulls.

polar jetty
#

Hmm I think I saw them made quite a few times in the pro lobby, so I’m not entirely sure they’re bad

opaque patrol
#

I never use them, low skill issue on my part 😄 But yeah they're used. I think pros like them, they're fun, and just like with banishers in the past, I guess too few people know how to use them properly.

obsidian gull
opaque patrol
#

my bad, I thought gunslingers were faster 😦 then please make them faster I guess emoplease

obsidian gull
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They're faster than Quakers, let that be enough

opaque patrol
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the fact that mauser > quaker is another weird one

#

mausers are 25% cheaper in metal, yet better in every way except 11% less HP, that's very odd

obsidian gull
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Quakers are more expensive, 360 vs 270, have slightly less speed and range and DPS, but 110 more hitpoints and slightly more vision (but they're both blind)

opaque patrol
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feels like the metal difference isn't justified, that it was given those stats a bit at random.

obsidian gull
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Well Fatboy is like an inferior Tzar in many ways, so there are some quirks like that where one side just gets the better version

opaque patrol
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would love to see more gunslingers and fatboys on the battlefield

obsidian gull
#

Ragnarok is inferior to Calamity

tall talon
# opaque patrol feels like the metal difference isn't justified, that it was given those stats a...

this is no longer the case, quaker got a aoe buff. Lots of testing happened with that, they are strong and justifiable now

I mean it still doesnt make sense if im honest.

90 metal cheaper, more speed, more range, faster firing, but a bit hp weaker.
I feel like this is a weird design descison all together really
The hp hardly matters on a arty veh that moves slow, cant escape from enemies and has to be facing forward to fire.

If we made quakers able to fire in all directions like a normal tank then i could see the metal cost being justified

bronze rover
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I've never seen a single game where gunslingers were good
seen them built like maybe 3 games in total

inner badger
bronze rover
#

making them sustained is better for skill cieling

ashen sapphire
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I'd support buffing gunslinger, if it were removed from consuls kekw

opaque patrol
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haha I've never seen anyone use a consul to build them

scenic dagger
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@vague flax is your guy for that

blazing lily
vague flax
#

already mentioned by others but yea gunslinger window of usefulness is maybe 7-10 minutes of the game

#

they're pretty much just a cheesy knowledge check-ish unit, it dies to like 10 ticks maybe less and can get devoured by a handful of light tanks

its best use case is rushing one as fast as you can before even making a t2 con, the build time stat or w.e. its called is high enough that you won't drain your energy while making it if you stick to like, 3 or 4 nanos

#

as a unit it sort of asks you to micro it into oblivion to make use of its decent speed and sharp-ish handling and pulling out to let it regen, so its best to just play around with one while you queue like the next 3 minutes of your economy at home

best case scenario, somehow you're able to march down frontliners and just slowly eat them alive with a single guy and then you follow through into the players behind them who are in the middle of starting their t2 economy

#

they work terrible in groups and tend to shoot other bots in the back of the head if you try to make multiple or pair it with a jammer

vague flax
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in a front/back setting if there are support positions that you don't have to/aren't recommended to fully tech from, i find the most success on maps like glitters or ice scream by pushing a fast gunslinger and getting t2 cons out for myself and the guy in front of me

in a big lane map if you have a big enough advantage that you're able to hit t2 faster than your opponent, a single gunslinger microed well will end them and probably finish off whoever is next to them

uhh, to try to tl;dr everything: cheese unit, make one while you're ahead or probably don't make one at all

#

the buff i want for gunslinger in my heart of hearts that i know will never happen is a D-key function to essentially just shoot a single fatboy shot that it can only hold 1 max stockpile of that recharges like once every minute so it can deal with at least a single pack of some trash t1 units

west burrow
tight phoenix
#

To be honest it's somewhat the case that some units like ticks, sheldons, hounds, mousers or shellshockers are just stupidly more efficient in most senarios. I can think of some where gunslingers are better not they're not in most lane maps and it's super dependent on terrain.

Also in response to Armada, if you do have a fast enough advatnage to get T2 faster than your enemy why go gunslingers over hounds or one of the other T2 long range units? If they have pork you won't break it as easily, you have a lower risk of losing your expensive units, you get more units so if you lose some it matters less, you probably have the metal and energy to produice them (gunslingers cost about 600m and 11k energy, wildly high). I think they'd still be weak in comparasion if you massively reduced their cost with no other adjustments to the unit.

#

Ticks beating T2 units is a whole other topic, those units are stupidly good.

tight phoenix
vague flax
#

it's very gambly, and maybe even somewhat comparable to commandos as a sort of "gambit" unit that you make to try to set back your opponent in some way, although commando does it as a raid and gunslinger feels more like a juggernaut vs t1 once it gets going

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i will say even though i love gunslinger, if i really REALLY wanted to win a game from a backline support-ish position i'd go arm vehicles to give some t1 support and then vomit mausers instead

lilac oasis
#

Yup, those videos were spitball ideas by me

tight phoenix
#

Been using these lately and another thing that would really help Gunslingers, which are apparantly anti T1 is being able to deal with a tick spam. At the moment they can't for a few reasons.

  1. They miss them all the time
  2. Too many will overwhelm them.

IMO they should be better at hitting them and have idk a tiny amount of AOE to their shots so if they do just miss they still kill the tick.

lethal igloo
#

As a potential nerf to these buffs can we have a voice line when these are seen like with commandos where it says "It's higgghh nooon" .

scenic dagger
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The line for commandos has just recently been disabled

tough minnow
#

Is gunslinger based on a total annihilation unit? If so was that unit useful and what was its role?

sturdy harness
#

it's the maverick

red mica
tough minnow
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Are there any decent players who use gunslingers? I want to watch some replays to see how they can be used.

tight phoenix
#

I believe Mavricks were just generally strong T2 units in OTA, they didn't have the Renegeration and OTA didn't have experience so they didn't gain HP/Range/rate of fire so they didn't have this 'snowball' kind of effect

#

I think you're mistaken about the Dominators. Dominators in OTA are the equivalant of the Arbitor and don't counter Mav/Gunslingers at all. They are good for countering slow moving units or static defence not faster more unpredictable units like gunslingers.

#

I don't know the replay but I've seen them used well in two ways. They get built quite early by a tech rushing player and go strait to the front where they make an impact quite hard on TA with T1 support from your other players. I've seen a siongle 1 push through 2-3 players and several coms due to the Regen and range increase from killing things.

I've seen them used in drops where their high DPS helps them kill eco quickly.

However I've seen them fall flat on their ass more often than not, where 3 janus 1 shot 1. Or some T2 Arty just kills them instantly.

cerulean kraken
tight phoenix
#

Oh cool, the more you know

tight phoenix
#

So thinking about what Tweak could be added to this Balance Candidate Pack, I'm unsure if the video with the rework is a tweak.

At the moment the unit is too niche

  • Too high cost for how fragile it is
  • Can't deal with even moderate ticks being spammed at them, they miss them.
  • Can be really good, with XP, but this kind of means you have to get out fast you must get XP and not die, there's not really a second chance or later game use for this unit.

My suggestions are and I intend to learn how to make tweaks for this:

  • Remove the Range bonus from XP (This is cool but with other buffs I fear this might make them too good?)
  • Lower their cost a bit from 650 M to 500 M and 11000 E to 8000 E
  • HP from 1560 to 1800
  • Weapon range from 365 to 400 (They slightly outrange Janus)
  • Weapon to function similarly to the commando weapon, the commando weapon hits and kills ticks easily in a small AOE. idk exactly what this needs be in projectile velocity, better accuracy or a small AOE but.

Misc Things that could make them better

  • Stealthy, so they are less susceptible to units like Arty, Snipers and Starlights which kill them quite easily.
  • Higher pushback on their shots so they push back even heavier units like med tanks and maybe even some pushback on heavy tanks like Tigers/Bulls.
  • Remove knockback but shots fire through enemy units and wrecks.
  • Retain XP when Rezzed
  • Personal Plasma Shield that can deflect a shot or two, makes them better against most tanks, plasma kbots, plasma arty and static plasma def. Adds a bit of a rock paper scissor counter where Lasers are the superior option for killing them.
  • Reanimates after 10-20 seconds when killed, eat/kill that wreck or they come back at 50% HP
bronze rover
#

maybe make the range increase a flatter curve and buff the starting range

#

stealthy seems like reasonable on a unit that is lowish range and not too fast

#

could give the gunslinger an activaeable defense shield on cooldown that reduces damage taken by 90% for 3 seconds (CD 100 sec)

#

(doesn't block dgun)

tight phoenix
#

So I made a tweak and some videos, I think I over did it.

Essentially, less E and M cost, a bit more HP Upped the idle auto heal and lowered idle time (idk how that is measured though)

1 extra speed
0.1 extra turn rate
Stealth
Higher accuracy and weapon velocity
Small AOE on attacks
High start start less ranged gained from XP
Much higher pushback on attacks

{
    armmav = {
        maxacc = 0.3,
        energycost = 8000,
        metalcost = 550,
        buildtime = 14000,
        idleautoheal = 50,
        idletime = 900,
        health = 1800,
        speed = 50.5,
        turnrate = 1385.69995,
        stealth = true,
        customparams = {
            rangexpscale = 0.3,
        },
        weapondefs = {
            armmav_weapon = {
                accuracy = 70,
                areaofeffect = 90,
                edgeeffectiveness = 0.30,
                craterareaofeffect = 90,
                predictboost = 0.5,
                impactonly = 0,
                range = 400,
                impulsefactor = 2,
                reloadtime = 1,
                weaponvelocity = 800,
                noselfdamage = true,
                damage = {
                    default = 265,
                    vtol = 65,
                },
            },
        },
    },
}
#

I might adjust this more as I think it's a bit OP

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cerulean kraken
#

Oh yeah, that seems crazy OP to me, especially since they're buildable on the Consul lmao.

elfin kettle
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definitely way too much all around, but why Accuracy=70? That makes it less accurate, don't see a point in that

tight phoenix
#

Yeah over did it a bit

Is there a key/legend somewhere for the unit stats? idk what they all mean I assumed higher accuracy was good. first time tweaking

elfin kettle
tight phoenix
#

That helps, ty

elfin kettle
#

small HP or regeneration buff, plus targetmoveerror = 0 and small AoE would be reasonable for me. No need to radically change the unit imo

tight phoenix
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Will adjust... The pushback on the weapon and the AOE, I only really want the AOE to deal with ticks, other units idc

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I mean this isn't a radical change, look at the difference between the tick killing though

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I didn't change the DPS or anything, the HP is marginally higher. A bit more range, tiny bit more speed and turn rate.

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The uuh Pushback is what made the difference in a lot of those matchups though

elfin kettle
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50 regeneration would be radical, you could still kill it w snipers etc just as easily but it'd really wipe anything around its own cost

tight phoenix
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It has 50 regen already

elfin kettle
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no its 5

tight phoenix
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Tha'ts Idle regen

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They have 50, in game it seems to tick on eveyr half second so kinda looks like 25

red mica
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one thing ill note
impactonly is a tag that im going to be remove=ing from units
its no different to aoe = 0 in function

tight phoenix
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Yeah, I had to remove it to get the AOE working.

elfin kettle
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oh right you only changed the idleautoheal

#

so i looked at that number in the original

tight phoenix
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Yeah, the idea being if you upll them out of combat they heal up all the quicker, idk when the idle regen kicks in, what scale is the idle regen timer in miliseconds? seconds?

elfin kettle
#

frames

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so 30/s iirc

tight phoenix
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900 is 30s?

elfin kettle
#

yeah p sure it is

tight phoenix
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And what is idle? Is that not moving or is that not attacking?

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Sorry, am noob at this

elfin kettle
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since it last took damage

tight phoenix
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Cool!

elfin kettle
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so it's really hard to get it to use idleautoheal, theyll regen w their normal regen by that time

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so i wouldnt touch that

tight phoenix
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Well you can lower the time, so if you made it 5 seconds they'd heal up faster out of combat

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The idea being it's a buff for being careful with them but not while in combat.

elfin kettle
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the normal regen is a buff for them to constantly stay in combat, i wouldnt mess with that. Kinda useless detail for ppl to know that it also gets extra extra regen when out of combat

tight phoenix
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Mm, fair, it is... Not obvious

elfin kettle
#

Don't want to make unit stats more complicated than they need to be

tight phoenix
#

Settled on these

{
    armmav = {
        energycost = 8000,
        metalcost = 550,
        buildtime = 14000,
        health = 1800,
        stealth = true,
        customparams = {
            rangexpscale = 0.4,
        },
        weapondefs = {
            armmav_weapon = {
                areaofeffect = 90,
                edgeeffectiveness = 0.15,
                craterareaofeffect = 90,
                impactonly = 0,
                range = 400,
                impulsefactor = 1.7,
                weaponvelocity = 800,
                noselfdamage = true,
            },
        },
    },
}
# 
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livid leaf
#

I think any kind of gunslinger buff needs to be accompanied by removing it from consul, else we will end up in the consul meta again.

tight phoenix
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I wouldn't be mad at that, I'd rather the unit be useful

livid leaf
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Maybe something to include in your tweak, hard to tell the strength of the unit on its own if everyone is abusing consuls to get them at 7 minutes

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I've had limited success with building a T2 bot lab as the techer and just giving a single gunslinger to people I think will use them well.

bronze rover
# tight phoenix

Seems like a cross between bull and pounder but slower and less range than bull. Shots feel omphy and effective. I do think it would be nice to have a short range slower hound that is more risky. That being said do they eclipse the welder?

tight phoenix
#

They have a different function to the welder, the Welder is a slow tank, deals with spam really well, best for like protecting snipers. Gunslingers can't tank as well for cost due to their cost even if they deal with spam as well.

This Tweak is aiming to make them a scary stealthy skirmish bot that wrecks T1. Good for early rush, good for drops, or sneaking up and dealing alpha strikes on exposed units. Tbh, the most important proposed change here is the stealth and the ability to fight ticks, the rest are just nice.

tight phoenix
livid leaf
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Empty slot

bronze rover
humble moth
#

would be cool if they become like the Core commando such that they could survive their air transport dying

bronze rover
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that seems really strong

humble moth
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imagine just a wall of gunslingers flying over on air transports

tight phoenix
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I don't think they 'need' that feature as nice as it would be

bronze rover
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kinda steps on the commando role. if you get a free drop then transport risk and reward is different

sleek nebula
tight phoenix
#

atm, short of rushing one or two and getting them a ton of XP just about every armada unit does a better job than the gunslinger for less cost.

sleek nebula
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Gunslingers with their level up range increases and hp Regen screams elite skirmish force

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Like something you send out to independently raid an army, as in strike at the backline

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And they slip away and recover then repeat

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What about we give them stealth AND cloak

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But obviously has to be some way to limit the cloak, so it's not too overpowered

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Like what if the cloak was extremely extremely expensive while moving but not very high when still so they could run off and lick their wounds

tight phoenix
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Cloak seems un-needed imo, I really like the idea of stealth as it allows them to get closer to enemies without being harrassed by ariliary or other long ranged units as quickly.

If you gave them cloak they would need a few things

  • Probably no cost reduction
  • Probably not be stealthy as well otherwise they are kinda a bot gremlin equivilant
  • A large uncloaking radius ( this would make it harder to sneak it into backlines, not the intetion of the unit, rather I think you're intending it to be used as a sneaky initationa nd rereat)
  • A decent Cool down on re cloaking after firing.
bronze rover
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and better against sustained light dmg

sleek nebula
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Lower range means lower throughput though

#

Theyre also slower

#

And metal for metal less damage iirc

limber surge
limber surge
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lmao you want to break the game

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they have to nerfed x2 to have both clock and stealth

bronze rover
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cloak is really insaneo

tight phoenix
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The only way I could see them with cloak and stealth would be to have a MASSIVE decloak radius, but I don't think it fits the unit and is too similar to the gremlin.

limber surge
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like i can't think of i use

sleek nebula
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Ok maybe I cooked too much there

humble moth
thorn mural
#

I just played with an update that @compact berry is trying out.
Basically modified Gunslingers attacks to be like pounders. It really cemented their position as T1 demolishers.
One of them took out an entire T1 defense lineup
Overall I liked the direction, they rewarded heavy micro due to the knockback effect, making kiting and surrounding enemy units easier. The main issue was the really high AOE, left a crater with each shot.

Once they get levelled up with kills they become unstoppable, replacing other T2 bots

#

the one gunslinger took out the entire defensive line. the craters shown here are the result of the Gunslinger shots

image.png
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@compact berry looking back at the replay, The fights were balanced. 2.2K metal in T1 tanks into 3 gunslingers (1.7K), where I had the high ground. Did cause a massive swing in the game though, since the metal trade was very favorable

image.png
compact berry
#

I've not seen it myself yet, but sounds better than the kneejerk reactions implied

thorn mural
#

Yeah. I would say it turns the gunslinger into a great unit for T1 and early T2, but is countered by later T2.

They seem in a similar power range as the Strider, the significant extra cost (+50% more metal) gives the gunslinger more range, the light knockback, and the ability to level up aggressively with kills.

I recommend toning down the AOE explosion effects, as it looks like the gunslinger is doing crazy work. Still takes 3 shots to kill a T1 artillery.

Awesome work on the Gunslinger!

tight phoenix
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idk why the explosion visual is so big, I put in some AOE so that they punished clumped units and pretty much always kill a tick even if they slightly miss it.

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I made some adjustments to the version hornet is trying out. Reduced the range a little, reduced the regen and increased the HP. With the knockback and small AOE it makes them all the harder to advance on with T1 an even some T2.

sleek nebula
cerulean kraken
thorn mural
compact berry
granite glen
#

So after you download the text file you just paste the contents somewhere?

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Can I test it out playing skirmish versus AI?

tight phoenix
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Yes

granite glen
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Wow just tested versus AI which spams t1. They're really fun to use now. Not sure exactly what changes were made. Seems like they aren't stealthy which I think is fine because they're already really good with these changes.

I think one problem is they might make welder obsolete with these changes.

compact berry
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they shouldn't, I'm intentionally balancing it against welders. it should be better early T2, where it can be microed 'through the gaps', but by the time nontrivial T2 is out, you need a welder wall

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you're right it is a risk with too high a buff though, gunslingers are in a really weird place

tight phoenix
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Welder definately shines in some situations over gunslinger. If the enemey has snipers, banishers, plusars or other high burst damage you do not want gunslingers, you want welders, they will take more hits for M cost.

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Or if someone is really spaming scouts/t1 at you again welders will do more for less cost.

granite glen
ashen sapphire
granite glen
#

yes with consul

tight phoenix
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They can definatly work, but they are really weak vs most T2 and miss alot with their weapons esecpially against fast targets like ticks. If you get the like the early 1-3 and get them expereinced they are monsters.

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I'd trade more HP on them for less regen any day. It's very dangerous to us them vs Janus unless they have some expereince for more range. Draw claws/maws hurt them alot as do HLTs. Once someone has something like a banisher you better hope there's lots of T1 support around. That's another point when you are fighting with gunslingers and your own T1 it is nasty good. If you just have a few gunslingers and your allies arn't helping/you don't have enough other units cause you rushed gunsligers then they are much more vulnerable.

tight phoenix
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Haha TX55 is in this game, it's a few days old at least 😄

granite glen
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Yeah I found the match because I wanted to see why he got banned. It was the straw that broke the camel's back. It's the last match of his on BAR Replays.

tight phoenix
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That may not be the straw, he may have done things in other games and it was just slow to catch up. But should probs stay clear of this topic 🤣

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I think Gunslingers work a lot better in maps like this, lane maps as opposed to a map like straits. Becuase in strait you've kind of trading with 3v3 or 4v4. But in a lane map, and in Sheep's position it's 1v1 or 1v2 2v1 or 2v2

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Much less going on, less likely 1 techer will come in and kill you mausers

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ouch he lost the fiurst one

granite glen
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He had a t1 vehicle lab in the front. Wouldn't januses have been better for the cost?

tight phoenix
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Nah, he's against one of the lowest OS and he's the highest. Plus TX55 didn't tech. So he's got gunslingers vs T1 bots, whcih is their perfect matchup

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He's also got some tanks which is nice

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Nice, he got 3 super expereinced

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sniped a com, did everything right with them, and tbh his enemies didn't do much right against them

tight phoenix
blazing lily
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sheep was a spectator in that match

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i'm just glad it's not the match i lost my entire army to a gunslinger that day

tight phoenix
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My bad, sheep told me about it. I thought he was in it

blazing lily
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Techer sending 1-3 gunslingers north on dsd was meta for a while...i think up until consul hound nonsense replaced every map's meta

humble moth
blazing lily
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4 minute window present nearly every match, with potential to end the game

tight phoenix
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Imo it's more risky than just teching. If you go 2-3 gunslingers, especially before T2 mexes you are way behind your counterpart techer. And you want to get them out asap because T2 usually at least outrange if not trade effectively against them

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Mind you in some lane maps with enough metal or post a fighter where you get a lot if reclaim you can smash out a lab and a few gunslingers and really put the pressure on. Very different to say getting gunslingers on Strait from a techer because the get player will likely send long range T2 at you and you have no where else to fight now

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Tbh the changes in the balance pack are great, they hit fast moving targets better, a bit more hp so a little less burstable, some push back on attacks and a tiny bit of aoe. Their problems post that seem to be more map or other balance related. Like vying janus. I don't think that's that's problem with gunslingers being bad. It's a problem with janus being too good

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And compared to a lot of other units that are rushed. Like poison arrows or arty gunslinger stand on their own well. With high Los,,high dos, self healing and good speed.

compact berry
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fun fact, a janus will kill a cor afus almost same speed as a banisher, despite being T1 and quarter of the cost

bronze rover
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so will a pawn, later tier units don't neccesarily have higher dps just better range and survavibility

compact berry
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this is true, does seem a bit rum for something that's a T2 janus essentially though

jovial hedge
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give it a small 500 range radar

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and remove the inbuild miss rate iirc there was one

compact berry
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pretty sure they can't miss now

white wind
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You will see the impact of gunslingers much more in smaller team games like 4v4 where the game usually ends at t2
That being said their projectiles struggle to catch Jags so they probably need a velocity tuning

bronze rover
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banisher is a good unit it's just not a starlight
it's much more independent

white wind
white wind
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Straits play also affects literacy I see 😔

signal trail
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Gunslingers are terrible straight out of the factory, but they level up pretty fast and once they're leveled they're actually pretty scary. 500+ range, 500+ dps, 4k+ health

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Getting the experience is the hard part, but the real power is their range increase as they level up.

#

The rapid self-repair doesn't hurt, and they're far from slow. Gunslingers are an investment in micro that pays off with an extremely powerful unit in the end, even for its cost.

tight phoenix
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4k hp, lol how much xp do you need for that?

signal trail
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Quite a lot.

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The things that make them unique are the ones that can make them powerful:

  • Levels up extra fast
  • Range increases with XP
  • Rapid self-repair
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Plus they've got pretty solid base stats, so once you start getting kills they become very noticeably more effective in combat

#

The problem is keeping them alive and doing enough damage with them to reap the reward.

compact berry
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it doesn't level up fast, that's a myth

tight phoenix
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They do not have solid base HP lol

#

Terrible HP to M ratio

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And they don't even outrange janus

#

2.63, does that have like 6 razroback kills? completely unrealistic in a pvp to get that much xp

compact berry
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1 behemoth, I think

white wind
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It's very unrealistic for a gunslinger to be alive let alone relevant anymore at that exp threshold.
Yes this unit definitely needs tweaking, honestly saying it is a smaller game only unit is just means it becomes irrelevant too quickly..

blazing lily
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Doesn't become irrelevant much earlier than hounds, depending on what opponent makes/has access to

white wind
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Well I would say that in a scenario assuming where both have access to t2 hounds+gunslinger should win out vs pure hounds because gunslingers will soak better(although that would be very micro intensive given their hp pool).
Ofc once any combat t2 gains sufficient numbers they readily defeat gunslingers.

blazing lily
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And most readily defeat hounds

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The real question is why arm bots has 2 different "anti-t1 and anti-sumo" units

granite glen
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I would say hounds can beat gunslingers because they can maintain range. Hounds have better range and are faster.

blazing lily
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The point is: why are both units in the same lab? They serve a similar purpose in a slightly different way

signal trail
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But semantics aside, I'm not sure why they didn't just manually lower its power value in the unit def. Enemy units not getting as much XP from it would be a small sacrifice.

granite glen
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For you gunslinger enjoyers, in this replay:
https://www.beyondallreason.info/replays?gameId=a218b8655302a9729ba98750a6e1c913

Raghna kills THREE commanders with gunslingers that he built from a T2 lab (not consul). He kills a fourth with sprinters. He wins the award for economy damage and resource efficiency at the end.

No tweakunits have been applied to the lobby. Still a bad unit that I'm guessing he was using just to flex. That's OS 60 for you.

BAR Replays

Replays of Battles once fought!

tight phoenix
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Gunslingers with the Balance pack tweak aren't any better at killing commanders, commanders are so slow they never miss anyway and they can outrange them so the HP changes doesn't really matter. In the matchup where it is a Gunsliger vs a Com and no other units are invovled.

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I will watch though, am keen.

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Holly moley it's on Hornets mega mashed up Flats and forests

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omg his team mate started air, he's 2v1!

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Wow, a few things. it's a lane map so you can get less help for allies, I've found gunslingers are better in games where there is less air support, less pork and less assitance from other players. Like Straits is a bad map for them.

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But very good show, idk if any other unit would have performed as well.

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They even kill the shuri's!

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imo if sad panda had gone for sheldons instead of all the fiends/T2 rocket bots he would have just outranged damaged them. but he obviosuly didn't know they were coming

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Hahaha they are outhealing T1 bombers

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Ah yeah, you see it quite clearly where the flob against the T2 def

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tbh I don't think the tweak would have changed much in this game. They would have killed the shuri's easier. They might have survived 1 extra hit from the scorpian. They would have fought off a wave of grunts easier at one point

compact berry
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not least as the preset isn't finished yet, still has some issues

tough minnow
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It was played during lostdeadmans meme lobby stream. Robert set it up.

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It was unranked.

tight phoenix
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Another note, one of the north players was also making gunsligers and didn't do well with them

compact berry
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ah, bugger. well, that probably had some jank in it then

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that one especially is not ready for wider play, some of the mexes can't be capped and one spawn is too rough

tight phoenix
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It's worth watching the top player use the gunslingers too, he uses them 'okay' he doesn't micro as well and gets countered by some stunners at one point. But by no means wasted them.

granite glen
compact berry
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that was a cursed one, and not final version even so, amazed they used it on stream

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I mean it's good stream fodder but gameplay still janky

tight phoenix
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I'd say the different topography helped the gunslingers, the map seems to favour bots

tight phoenix
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Justa rushed me a gunslinger for mid in this game, this has the tweak on. Some people watching noted that the AOE on the shot seemed a lot better/ maybe too good

cerulean kraken
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LEL THAT IS AN AIR-ONLY GEO SPOT EAKRUYHBGF

granite glen
tight phoenix
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Nah, Kcorp put it on

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But anyone can add a tweak to a lobby, you either need to be boss or have everyone vote it. I recommend getting it from here #1186850950770610207 message , you can copy it into the tweak unit option. And you should add the welcome so people who join can see what the tweak is doing

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Also, I don't think the Tweak mattered that much this game. It doesn't increase the DPS or anything. It does increase their HP but it also reduces their regen. So it only came close to dying once before it was eventually killed by gunships. And it was to whistlers. If it had the regen I believe it would hhave hd comparable HP, the extra HP makes them better against bursted by units like Janus.

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The extra weapon velocity does make it hit units like ticks and grunts easier but it didn't fight many of those. Some people watching mentioned that the Small AOE the Tweak adds was noticable when it was attacking tanks and whistlers.

granite glen
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Where is the welcome message visible? Is it in chat or soemthing?

tight phoenix
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It gets sent to players who join the lobby, not in the lobby chat it's in that other chat window in the game client

slow igloo
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Im not sure what the Kcorp tweak looks like but what ive decided on is reduced reloadtime, increased weapon velocity, increased default range and buffed HP

lethal igloo
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@compact berry has a good tweak for gunslinger in his balance patch. Played with it a few times and it makes much more sense

slow igloo
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Which mode is the patch?- proposed unit reworks?

lethal igloo