#Balance Candidates Pack

1 messages Ā· Page 3 of 1

rustic dust
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Gives arm an eco upside during t1 on no wind maps

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Imo add ~5-10 m cost to cor asolar, ~50m to cor afus, give arm slightly cheaper converters both land+sea t1 +t2, but take something like 3 m and 50 e off the price of cor winds. Arm gets better converters and better m costs on most e production, cor gets better e costs on basically all e production, and isn't so insanely shafted on giga-wind maps

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Cheaper converters seems more "environmentally friendly" along with emphasis on winds, cor produces more e but is more "wasteful"

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Lower e costs for cor e production is just in line with current asolar and afus, would make faction asymmetry in eco more consistent rather than seeming to be completely arbitraty

elfin frigate
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400 when moving O.O plus the E cost to build them. You bassically need a afus to consider making more than 3. Which can be devistating but yeah Gremlins cost and cost to cloak 20 while moving, is crazy low.

Lower LOS for gremlins should be on the cards, they shouldn't double as scouts espcially if they csot so little to cloak

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You could bump it to 50-100 while moving tbh

rustic dust
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Worth less than a spybot to have cloaked generally, and often need numerous to get a job done, even 20-50 would be a substantial nerf to a unit that's not extremely common

dire cypress
elfin frigate
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They cost so little for their potential though, 230M and 2700E. For a Cloaked and stealthy unit with nearly 500 LOS and 20 E cost to cloak. You can build 3 of them for a skulles M cost and you're 15k E ahead plus Less ongoing cloak costs, 60 vs 400 if you're cloaking.

I know they're not exactly unit equivilants but that compariosn is bonkers.

dire cypress
rustic dust
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Skuttles without their insane e cost would absolutely decimate t2 and early t3 armies

dire cypress
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Gremlins decimate everything.
Through their LOS. Insane value per cost.

elfin frigate
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IMO they're too E intensive, they should be restricted by the cloak cost or initial cost not both.

dire cypress
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I built 2... They were cheaper than a t1 bot lab. And I just lost 1. It was so much more cost effective than a Tick spam.

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I had to click a few times to evade stuff... But boy they paid for themselves BIG time.

They are underused, but they are so valuable.

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In other numbers:
They cost less than 10 rascals.
Reduce their LoS. They are just too good for scouting.

pine nacelle
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Sorry for asking, but how do I enable this pack?

violet geyser
tepid mortar
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t2 torp luncher under water is overlooked, i still can manually kill them with battleships

pine nacelle
violet geyser
pine nacelle
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Ok

wintry wasp
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I'd recommend pasting it into the tweakunits under Adv Options > Unit Modifiers > Tweak Units. That seems to be more reliable for long strings

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violet geyser
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@pine nacelle

pine nacelle
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Thanks!

wintry wasp
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Once its applied you should see this; the green bit is the length in characters so you can use that to check it has all characters from the string included

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iron bronze
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@dire cypress Has a very good points about Gremlins. For me they are so op, that they are straight up broken. Gremlin cost 230 metal and Intrusion Countermeasure System costs 750 metal... And this is only thing that can effectively be used against them giving vision. And usually you need more than one countermesure. This is like antinuke that is more than 3 times as expensive as nuke... Counter should always be much cheaper. Totally broken.

And of course, Gremlins can sometimes get into enemy eco and directly win games like that.

I understand that bot labs have spybots, but bots are usually weaker than vehicules, so this is kind of ok to balance. And BOTH botlabs have spybots. While Core vehicules have nothing like Gremlins.

dire cypress
elfin frigate
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Spybots also have much bigger E costs, cloaking cost and buildtime

thick inlet
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Is Wasp of COR made stronger in this pack? To be honest, even with the Air Rework I feel like they are not very good and even other players don't seem to be using them a lot.

violet geyser
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Wasps arent changed and they are in fact a good unit in my opinion, especially if you consider their cost. They gud.

tired tinsel
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spybots also have giga insane emp

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i don't use gremlins but I assume they are pretty op
for vision. tracer or spam or shoot the ground ig

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shoot the ground like you are paranoid

wintry wasp
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You know what bugs me about the stealthy cloak things the most? Core Veh lab doesn't even have one

wintry wasp
paper cypress
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is it possible to make unit automatically target stealth unit detected by the detectors?

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also buff skuttle to all terrian and slow their climbing speed is an idea as they are the only spider that cant really climb

rustic dust
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Bedbug and skuttle both kinda have stubby legs and are "only" amphib. Someone else would need to confirm as it's not something i'm particularly well-versed in, but i think an all-terrain+amphib unit would require creating a new movedef, which 100% isn't happening

placid ridge
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Anything cloaked is defeated by spam. Consider that in order to snipe a fus/afus you need up to >4 gremlins. That is easily 2-3 adv solars of E which also cost M to keep up. And once one gremlin is spotted they will scramble to find the entire pack. Gremlins are not fighting units by any measure and struggle against llts. For reconnaissance I would rather have spybots for being able to cripple t3.

iron bronze
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Gremlins are not apm sink. If Arm veh builds one Gremlin, and Cor veh has to build 2 Nemesis, it is 230 metal for Arm and 1500 metal spent for Cor. Arm has already won.
Basicly anything not cloaked can be defeated by spam too, if you waste enough metal to do so. But you are not going to find Gremlin giving vision under the cover of long range weapons just by sending one scout. As already said, it is much cheaper to have Gremlin for vision than spam line.
Game has been won more than once by one Gremlin, there is no law that you always need +4 to hurt eco. Althought even if you do not attack eco, vision they give is already totally op broken.
And you can not build spybots from vehicule labs...

dire cypress
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Core pays about twice the e of a gremlin in addition to the e price of a arm spy bot. Because reasons.

Would make sense to have one faction that pays more and has more possibilities and one faction that pays less but is less versatile.

But it is the other, wrong, way around.

placid geyser
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If the solution to Gremlin being OP is to give it to Cor, does it also follow that the solution to Commando should be to give it to Arm?

dire cypress
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Nope, and you already know that. But if someone is arguing so hard that a unit that is so much cheaper than anything slightly comparable is ok, I might get irrational, as well.

And we still haven't seen your replays, yet. So, please show us in at least 10 out of 20 Games that Commands are as cost effective as you assume. And then take the other games and put it in perspective. Let us know when you made your experience, please.

elfin frigate
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Lol you're such a blatant troll goaf

placid geyser
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I havenā€™t played since we last spoke

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It probably seems like Iā€™m trolling by not sending replays, Iā€™m not - just been travelling

random forum
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core spybot have more cost probably because they can be paired with fiends
armada doesn't use the spybots in the same ways, so different price to balance it

placid ridge
rustic dust
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Literally had a match just last night where i was able to capitalize on a spybot stun because of fiends which i wouldn't have been able to capitalize on as arm. Was significantly behind on army, was only able to spybot ~1/2 the group of mausers, had to run through the shelling of the other half and only surviving fiends were able to deal damage. Pawns or sprinters would've just died.

placid ridge
rustic dust
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well, my statement was only partially a correct memory, it was 6k metal in quakers with tigers and a few brutes in front, and my handful of fiends were just able to kill ~half before all dying, rather than the "none" i would've probably gotten as arm...also it was right before enemy team resigned and it was a match where i decided to try spamming thugs for the first 10 minutes

random forum
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2 spybots with like 20 fiends is very classic core push timing , fiends very weak to dmg when closing the distance so spybots completely remove that if you hit them right

paper cypress
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allow the skuttle to be transportable by t2 transport! u can carry mammoth/tiger/bull and not the tiny skuttle

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make it make sense please

elfin frigate
dire cypress
placid ridge
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Fiends are just good at capitalizing openings in general because of their burst and speed, arma also displays that in the form of the Blitz, Jaggy, Razorback etc.

I'm trying to show that this isn't an "arma vs cort better argument" but each faction has more nuance to it.

placid geyser
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Youā€™re right Itā€™s not entirely straightforward although none of Blitz, Jag or Razorback are built from a T2 bot lab

elfin frigate
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I disagree, there are some units that are stupidly good and some really egregious imbalances.

  1. Grunts Vs Pawns, Grunts win in 9/10 situations. Same speed, grunts cost less have like 50 more range, yes they have damage falloff from lasers and less dps but it doesn't outdo the range,
  2. Spybots, arms are cheaper, less bp, more speed, 30 less Hp
  3. Core sea > arm sea, Only like the T2 lightning ships and Skeeters are better than cores equivalent. And dolphins but because cor frigates are so good dolphins barely matter.
  4. Core T1 Air > Arm air solely because of shurikens. tbh shuri's are insane for their value even though amphibs can barely be stunned, still no one builds t1 arm gunships.
  5. Arm T2 air trans -> Cheaper, Stealthy, Faster, 22k Stun attack takes 3 hits from T2 fighters, while Cores costs MORE, is slower, not stealthy, no attack, takes 4 hits from T2 fighters, same carry capacity. O.o Why ever go core T2 trans. Arm ones can stop Demons in 2 hits.
  6. Starlights vs? Banishers are the closest equivilant and they are TERRIBLE, Horrible DPS, 2+ longer repload time so worse against spam, cost like 12k more E to build.
  7. Snipers vs? Arbitors?? There is no real quivilant to snipers and they are fcking baller.
  8. All early Arm T3 > Core except the Demon.
  9. Juggs/Behe > Titans
  10. Janus Vs Pounder. I know they don't have the sam role, because janus's role is to burst attack enemies and coms and take almost no damage while pounders are only good whne your enemy is ramming spam down your throat. Pounds can't trade with comes due to their range and their speed/turn/rate/accelation makes them dgun food.
  11. Tiger V Bull, Bull has a much better M to E ratio.
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  1. Gunslinger vs Commando? Not the same role but nothing else comes close, Gunslingers are used more, though both of these boys are in a bad place
  2. Sheldon V Hounds Sheldons cost waaaay too much for what they do, hounds way better, gause mode makes them better vs spam than sheldons too.
iron bronze
elfin frigate
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Nah, Core battleships > Arm, Arm has less range, hp, two turrets (Which is worse) Even just with the big turrent core battleship usually wins and is better against non-battleship class ships

cinder sphinx
iron bronze
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  1. Starlight totally crushes Banisher. 4 times more dps, (2 times in max range) and much more range.
placid geyser
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Isnā€™t the grunt being better than the pawn kinda an integral part of ā€˜TA loreā€™?

elfin frigate
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This isn't TA, we want a balanced game

iron bronze
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    1. Snipers totally crush Sheldons. Almost 4 times more dps and more range. Even considering that they are more expensive than Sheldons.
placid geyser
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Balance is super tricky - isnā€™t one of the overarching goals to reward skillful players and punish weaker players?

iron bronze
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  1. I thought Thors win metalwise... But I have not tested. Arm Thors certainly have advantage of speed and antispam as heavy t3.
elfin frigate
elfin frigate
rustic dust
iron bronze
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  1. Janus totally crushes Pounders.
elfin frigate
iron bronze
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  1. As much as I know, Bulls crush Tigers metalwise.
rustic dust
placid geyser
iron bronze
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I feel like almost everything is in favor of Arm. Arm op.

elfin frigate
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Sry, okay goaf

elfin frigate
placid geyser
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Cor is more viable in general on Bot maps (in my experience), primarily because of grunt, mammoth and in team games, twitcher

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Arm vehicle just way better

rustic dust
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Was only a year ago that cor's power in early t1 with bots and ability to snowball early t2 with either lab made it the more desirable option pretty universally. Only thing (directly) nerfed since then for cor is grunts.

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Indirect nerfs and meta shifts, of course, are another story

placid ridge
rustic dust
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Whether infantry nerf, comupdate, or player influx played the largest role in the devolution of the meta could he debated heavily, but the reality regardless is that they all compounded upon each other

rare orbit
random forum
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Only keep the com explosion/dgun immunity, revert everything else that's left from it, devs been trying to fix the game since then, no success.

placid geyser
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Before my time but didnā€™t com use to leave 2k metal wreck? Now itā€™s 1.25k doesnā€™t that make T1 phase longer? Isnā€™t that a good thing?

rustic dust
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2.5k, which meant securing an enemy comm meant frontliners could actually afford to go t2 personally, and at a time when sheldon's low e cost was relevant

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Comms were weaker, which meant arm's dedicated t1 comm snipe tools (and missile trucks) were less necessary, etc etc

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T1 ending sooner for frontliners meant trying to mass vehs, be they missile trucks, stouts, or arty, had high odds of getting punished by a greedy t2 before they could reach critical mass

tired tinsel
random forum
dire cypress
dire cypress
dire cypress
random forum
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Clyret is really good at explaining it, maybe he will show up šŸ™‚

rare orbit
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0.61 now out; Naval, AA Bot & Thor edition

Remember this is a tweakunit patch. Please download to copy, don't try to paste from Discord, it can be error-prone.

Newest items added to top, new -this patch- in italics

Core dgun now same range as Arm's
Dragon: cost reduction to 4500 metal, from 5100
Legion flying fortress: now has much more health, 27000, and metal cost reduced to 4800 from 5600

Minor:
Naval HLT buildtimes standardised to 8000
T1 naval energy converters: now same cost & efficiency as land
Rascals: now same energy cost to fire as rovers (5)

T2 torp launchers: metal cost decrease (now 780 from 1030).
Battleships: slight range increase. Arm now longer ranged.
Bulwark: main ATA gun range +100, so can shoot battleships.
Thor: EMP cost increased, slight nerf to HP, alpha damage, boost to chaining.
Arm T2 AA bot: fires much faster. Cor T2 AA bot: increase to speed, range and damage, slight reload buff. Both now worth building.
Centurion: slight experimental buff, should be more competent vs spam.
Gunslinger: general buffs & greater AoE, removed from consul
Commando: Can build AA, detect stealth units, has EMP resistance, and shoots air units
Sumo: less energy per shot
Janus: Handling nerfs, less commander damage
Shiva: better firing mechanics, has some missile tracking
HLT: build ~30% faster
Termites: +7 speed, +110 range, +85 damage (remember this is usually halved by dropoff)
Tremor: spread fire mode narrowed as above, thus damage density improved, and fire rate 20% increased

šŸ“Ž balancepatch0_61alpha.txt
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$welcome-message Hornet Balance Pack 0.61 (details and feedback thread is on Discord)$$Core dgun now same range as Arm's$$Dragon now 4500 metal, Legion Flying Fortress HP and cost buff also$$Battleships: slight range increase. Arm now longer ranged.$$T2 torp launchers: Less metal.$$Thor: EMP cost increased, slight nerf to HP, alpha damage, boost to chaining.$$Arm T2 AA bot: fires much faster. Cor T2 AA bot: increase to speed, range and damage, slight reload buff. Both now worth building.$$Gunslinger: general buffs & greater AoE, removed from consul$Commando: Can build AA, detect stealth units, has EMP resistance, and shoots air units$$Sumo: less energy per shot$$Janus: Handling nerfs, less commander damage$$Shiva: better firing mechanics, has some missile tracking$$HLT: build ~30% faster$$Termites: +7 speed, +110 range, +85 damage (remember this is usually halved by dropoff)$$Tremor: spread fire mode narrowed as above, thus damage density improved, and fire rate 20% increased

tired tinsel
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t2 torp + kraken is pretty strong in vanilla already it seems

dire ore
tired tinsel
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maybe naval wall + missile ship to take them out xD
plz give naval hlt 30% less build time too xD

dire ore
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Lot of balance packs out there are trying to reinvent the game from the ground up. Small tweaks like these on units everyone agrees is underpowered/overpowered is the right way to go imo.

tired tinsel
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yeah it's good way to gather feedback instead of conjecture

rare orbit
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wall interactions is something I can't do much about from here though

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I do agree in any sort of choke they can be powerful, esp supported, but on wider sea/area control, they're less viable. investment in units will always beat t2 torps equal metal, on a non-tiny seafront

elfin frigate
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Reduced or increased?

tired tinsel
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they stop battleships ... i mean wide maps by definition are meant to be difficult to wall off the map

dire cypress
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And are torp launchers still under water? If so it would be good to mention it

rustic dust
random forum
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"Core dgun now same range as Arm's" needs to be in main game sweet jesus šŸ™

sharp spire
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Isnā€™t core LLT longer range than arm? You can build cortex llt slightly out of range and the arm llt canā€™t hit back . I feel like dgun arm range difference is only fair.

rare orbit
rare orbit
rare orbit
whole pumice
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Here's example of core llt versus arm llt. You're right that it doesn't come up in gameplay often but they are functionally different. You have to get the positioning just right though.

rustic dust
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Whatever the true reason is, it wasn't done in the last 13 years. Does cor llt still have more range than arm llt when targetting ground?

rare orbit
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interesting, seems it's only specific diagonals it can occur on. I'd tested it before on right angles all sides and they had equal effective range, so presumably one is just the right distance

there was one case where I'd seen this before in a replay but there was a wreck involved, and the assumption was it was related. given LLT interactions are pretty fundamental I'd expect it should be fixed,
cor flare is 17.89 from axis, arm is 26.52292. cor range stat 435, arm 430, giving arm real range of 456.52, and core, 452.89, eg arm is 3.63 real difference after all, less than 1%, but which apparently can manifest a gameplay difference along said specific diagonals

dire cypress
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How big are the hotboxes?
I had a case where an ARM LLT destroyed my CORE one and I desperately tried to manually target at least the ground before the llt to splash damage it. But I didn't succeed.

rare orbit
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hitboxes probably not relevant in this case, and changing them would cause other issues, it's about the aim point which is along the vertical axis

rare orbit
#

0.62 now out; Naval, AA Bot & Thor edition

Remember this is a tweakunit patch. Please download to copy, don't try to paste from Discord, it can be error-prone.

Newest items added to top, new -this patch- in italics

Core dgun now same range as Arm's
Dragon (and RC Dragon): cost reduction to 4500 metal, from 5100
Legion flying fortress: now has much more health, 27000, and metal cost reduced to 4800 from 5600

Minor:
Naval HLT buildtimes standardised to 8000
T1 naval energy converters: now same cost & efficiency as land
Rascals: now same energy cost to fire as rovers (5)

T2 torp launchers: metal cost decrease (now 780 from 1030).
Battleships: slight range increase. Arm now longer ranged.
Bulwark: main ATA gun range +100, so can shoot battleships.
Thor: EMP cost increased, slight nerf to HP, alpha damage, boost to chaining.
Arm T2 AA bot: fires much faster. Cor T2 AA bot: increase to speed, range and damage, slight reload buff. Both now worth building.
Centurion: slight experimental buff, should be more competent vs spam.
Banisher: 1 second faster reload
Gunslinger: general buffs & greater AoE, removed from consul
Commando: Can build AA, detect stealth units, has EMP resistance, and shoots air units
Sumo: less energy per shot
Janus: Handling nerfs, -20 range, less commander damage
Shiva: better firing mechanics, has some missile tracking
HLT: build ~30% faster
Termites: +7 speed, +110 range, +85 damage (remember this is usually halved by dropoff)
Tremor: spread fire mode narrowed as above, thus damage density improved, and fire rate 20% increased

šŸ“Ž balancepatch0_62alpha.txt
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$welcome-message Hornet Balance Pack 0.62 (details and feedback thread is on Discord)$$Core dgun now same range as Arm's$$Dragon now 4500 metal, Legion Flying Fortress HP and cost buff also$$Battleships: slight range increase. Arm now longer ranged.$$T2 torp launchers: Less metal.$$Thor: EMP cost increased, slight nerf to HP, alpha damage, boost to chaining.$$Arm T2 AA bot: fires much faster. Cor T2 AA bot: increase to speed, range and damage, slight reload buff. Both now worth building.$$Banisher: 1 second faster reload$$Gunslinger: general buffs & greater AoE, removed from consul$$Commando: Can build AA, detect stealth units, has EMP resistance, and shoots air units$$Sumo: less energy per shot$$Janus: Handling nerfs, -20 range, less commander damage$$Shiva: better firing mechanics, has some missile tracking$$HLT: build ~30% faster$$Termites: +7 speed, +110 range, +42-85 damage$$Tremor: spread fire mode damage density improved, and fire rate 20% increased

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(trivial bugfix, otherwise identical to 0.61)

tired tinsel
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does this tweak have janus -20 range or is that a different tweak?

rare orbit
tired tinsel
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prolly should mention that

rare orbit
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character limit becoming an issue, but will try to

tired tinsel
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oh

rare orbit
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handling nerfs was meant to include weapon handling too

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the rockets basically won't track out of range, and will start to fall to the ground, also turn more slowly (so can be dodged somewhat). minor things that just make it less oppressive while still pretty powerful

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something I've been considering for a while - thoughts on pinpointers also acting as radar?

tired tinsel
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unjunoable radar? i dunno kinda lukewarm. cause if they die your team is griefed

tepid mortar
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To expensive to use it as radar

cold needle
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I'd like to advocate for a re-adjustment of the Commando changes.

I'll preface this with the goal behind my request: I want to avoid a "gatcha" situation for unaware players.

The majority of the changes in the pack only impact the degree to which units counter (or are countered by) each other; for an unaware player those units may be more/less effective than expected, but they can still trade favorably with units they previously countered and unfavorably with units that previously countered them.

The Commando changes are an exception to the above. For an unaware player with an air lab, it is common to respond to a Commando by building Shurikens or Banshees as a quick/easy counter. With this pack, those units are not just less effective -- they went from hard-countering Commandos to being hard-countered by Commandos.

That would be fine if all players were aware of the change, but from what I have seen that is usually not the case; it is common for several players to join a lobby and completely miss that there are balance changes applied, and even if a summary is added to the lobby's welcome message players often don't see/read it. I've personally seen 2-3 games where the air player was caught severely off-guard by how ineffective their units were against Commandos -- a high number, considering how Commandos are only built in relatively few games.

I'd like to see Commandos be more effective when faced with air units than they are in the vanilla game, but not to the point where the counter/countered relationship is swapped around and unaware players are left confused. So, my proposal is to remove a single adjustment that was made: allowing the Commando's weapon to attack air units. The Commando should still be able to protect itself by building an AA turret, and its EMP resistance will give it enough time to do so -- but it will at least need to invest time into handling air units, rather than just ignoring them.

Modified 0.62alpha patch with the above change:

tired tinsel
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note that t2 wasps do not care about nettles at all

cold needle
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Sure, but you can easily make a Commando way before the air player has access to t2

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I'm open to alternative suggestions, though

rare orbit
rare orbit
# cold needle I'm open to alternative suggestions, though

commando is a really weird unit in the roles it fills, usually unsupported types (amphib/raiders) are somewhat self sufficient, and it's a 1.2k unit that's both. the native weapon shooting air somewhat, feels viable to me, but possibly it should do less damage

tired tinsel
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yeah thats what i thought too. 100% is too much dmg

cold needle
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I could imagine lower-damage solving the problem -- maybe on par or a bit less than the AA turret?

At current levels of damage at least, there never seems to be a reason to build that turret, its just redundant. If you could double your DPS vs air with it, then that might give players a reason to actually use that addition

tired tinsel
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it's aa turret is 100% atm? make it 50-60% vs air instead

cold needle
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Second candidate modification of Hornet's 0.62alpha. This time, I just reduced the Commando's damage vs air:
-- Commando: 40 damage/attack / 0.5 seconds/attack = 80 DPS (40% of its normal attack)
-- Thistle (Reference): 115 damage/attack / 1.7 seconds/attack = 67 DPS

It now kills:
-- Shuriken: 3 hits, 1.5 seconds
-- Banshee: 13 hits, 6.5 seconds

šŸ“Ž balancepatch0_62alpha-devious2.txt
pallid sigil
pallid sigil
elfin frigate
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Why do you people hate commandos

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13 hits to kill a banshee, lol

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Might as well not have AA at that point

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I've tested how many shuri's you need to stun 1 and it's 8 on the EMP reworked, so if you halve the damage you'd need 4, if you thrid it you'd only need 2. Slow clap you've made them only halve as bad vs shuri's!

cold needle
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As I said above, I'm open to suggestions if you have an alternative way to solve the problem I pointed out

elfin frigate
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2 hits, way more reasonable

violet geyser
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why are you trying to balance commando AA versus Banshee when the Banshee is more problematic than the commando in the first place

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one step at a time, mate

elfin frigate
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idc about banshees and I doubt devious does either, they're almost never used. He's just doing the leg work to show what T1 air can do against commandos and Banshee's are T1 air

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Though at the same time 1 hit is fine. People don't send shuriken 1 at a time against any other unit that can attack air, they just don't know the change.

dire ore
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There is nothing stopping a player with an air factory from getting t2 first

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Is this like, in the context of 8 v 8 on the 2 most boring maps with the worst player bases?

cold needle
# dire ore Is this like, in the context of 8 v 8 on the 2 most boring maps with the worst p...

That's not a productive attitude to take. We're discussing a balance pack that in theory can be run on all maps, and if it causes issues on certain maps then that is certainly a valid criticism of the pack.

What I was communicating in my original comment is that I'm not concerned with the balance of Commando vs any T2 air unit. If someone else wants to do the math there, they're welcome to do so -- but my focus is on Commando vs T1 air.

dire ore
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If you play variety, you'd know this describes half the roster lol

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And mind you, that fault wouldn't even be with the map, but the way people play those maps.

cold needle
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I'm aware, it just doesn't concern me. I'm happy to play with a balance pack that is tailored to make for balanced gameplay on the maps that I play -- if that is the general-purpose balance pack from this thread, great. If not, I can always fork and use one tailored for my own gameplay.

dire ore
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So the goal here isn't for some of these packs to be merged? I guess I missed the point of this thread then.

cold needle
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That's why I was making suggestions for inclusion in this pack... to possibly get it merged.

dire ore
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I don't think the changes are worth making if you can't even allow commandos to deal with light T1 air

cold needle
#

That's a fair perspective to take, and as I said above I am open to alternatives. Do you have any alternative suggestions on how to solve the problem that I identified?

dire ore
#

The thing is, commando isn't a raid unit that can be fixed by raising its emp resist. It needs a way to actively deal with air by itself to fulfill its role.

Scrap the idea that there's a problem here, test how it goes.

cold needle
#

That testing has already been done, and I found that the large proportion of games which involve the changed Commandos also involve confused air players who throw metal away on counters that no longer counter. The problem exists.

dire ore
#

Only other solution I see here is remove its jammer and give it cloak.

#

That testing has already been done, and I found that the large proportion of games which involve the changed Commandos also involve confused air players who throw metal away on counters that no longer counter. The problem exists.

If there's a fundamental change to a unit, some players are going to need time to adjust. Com update was the same way when it released, no?

cold needle
#

Yes, but we're running into the problem that this pack is a tweakdef -- it isn't played in the majority of lobbies, the changelog isn't listed in the "Changes" menu, and even on the occasions that the changelog is posted in a welcome message we still regularly see players who aren't aware of them or didn't read them. Its a visibility/awareness problem, yes -- but there isn't a good way to address that while the pack is just a tweakunit patch.

Now, that visibility problem isn't really impactful for number-focused changes; but it has an outsized impact when the actual capabilities of a unit are changed. As a result, my philosophy is that it is necessary to be much more conservative in capability-related changes like for the Commando.

To be clear, I would not have an issue with making the full changes the default in BAR. My issue is solely that the pack's nature as a non-default tweakunits patch appears to be causing a mismatch in uninformed player expectations, and causing lower-quality games as a result.

tired tinsel
#

i mean plp are confused about everything. plp still use emp on salamanders

dire ore
cold needle
#

If that is true, then I think a proper rework by the dev team (with a checkbox in the UI) would be a better way to proceed -- but, I don't think that is necessary. We could make some very significant changes without violating player expectations -- increase the Commando's HP by 10x, for example, and unaware players would still build the "correct" units to counter it (even if they likely would not build ENOUGH of them). I only advocate being conservative in adding capabilities, and I suspect that radical changes there are not strictly necessary

rare orbit
cold needle
#

That is true, I see it as a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem -- playtesting/feedback is important to get the changes "good enough" for a more stable built-in option, but the level and quality of feedback isn't great if players aren't aware of the changes (not the least because they aren't adjusting their playstyle around them).

Do you have a particular use-case in mind for the tweakunits versions of your balance patch? For example: do you intend it to be used as a RFC-style discussion starter, a tool for focused playtesting/feedback by informed parties, or just generally used by any groups who feel that the current balance is off, or a mix?

I ask because if you're primarily posting the patches for development/informed-feedback purposes, I'd be content to maintain and use a watered-down version for more public lobbies, which is focused more on the low-hanging fruit and quality-of-life when playing with unaware players (hopefully to be replaced with your full changes at a later date, when it would be more feasible to educate random players -- we don't need to tell anyone what the EMP Rework checkbox does these days šŸ™‚ ).

dire cypress
#

EMP rework was a great achievement.

I like the idea of watering it down... But not the actual tweaks, the descriptions would be enough.

These units got better:
Gunslinger, Tremor...
These units got a bit more balanced:
Janus...

For exact numbers click at this link:
Blabla.com
violet geyser
rare orbit
rare orbit
#

people -are- already familiar with the patch and the changes, and do play differently when it's on, but I agree it would benefit from wider/continuous use, just has to get there

#

there's a horse and cart issue that I can't get it widely used until stable and 'everyone likes it', as once loblobs groupthink it unready, even if it later -is-, or was but just had one or two issues, it's very hard to get accepted again

#

and only way to solve that is organic acceptance by merit, which seems well underway

elfin frigate
#

I have noticed using this, people's reactions to a small nerf, like the Janus changes are often extreme. Such as no longer building them.

rustic dust
#

most likely, part of it is janus only needing an extremely small nerf, part of it is people wanting the opportunity to try builds/compositions which they previously couldn't, and part of it is people not wanting to learn the new nuances of controlling the unit

rare orbit
#

the nerf isn't that heavy tbh, they are still strong, just not -oppressive-

rustic dust
#

oh, they'd probably need to be hit way harder to not be oppressive in low-mid level 8v8. in high level 8v8 or any other game mode, the maneuverability nerf or the range nerf or the projectile handling nerf or the comm damage nerf, possibly alone, probably with 2 of the 4, would be plenty

tired tinsel
#

it's a significant nerf but they are still good for their role

#

sloppy micro now needs to be more tight

flat mason
#

I thought their role was killing commanders op :3c

dire ore
#

In game modes and maps where leaks can be controlled, these units absolutely ruin early game enjoyment

#

To be frank, I'm not even sure why late game balance is on the radar at all when early game is ruined for these top players

elfin frigate
flat mason
#

Cuz if you nerfed them that much and they're still op then they're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too op

elfin frigate
#

I mean just my opinion

#

I think it goes from 6 vollies to 9 vollies to kill a com. Plus the worse handling and slightly less range

#

So 4 janus againt a com that's been chipped at already is still pretty deadly

rare orbit
#

considering that almost all other units with high damage have com-specific nerfs, it's weird janus didn't

elfin frigate
#

Starlights, snipers, for example have less damage vs coms

tired tinsel
#

it was much easier to fire off a volley and then retreat with janus

#

it's so easy an average player could push back the com of a strong player

dire cypress
elfin frigate
#

Cause banishers suck ass?

#

I guess that's the bonus they get for costing 23k E?

dire cypress
#

They are a nice unit, but they have some problems:

  1. They can get very strong in the right hands, in some situations. And that is why ppl are so careful with buffing it. Range + Speed...
  2. their DPS is just 50% higher than a Janus
  3. their AOE is as big as a single Janus missile
  4. they cost too much

While not being able to fix all this without making it way slower (to make the snowball not being able to run away from everything)
A double missile could be a thing. It could miss sometimes, or just hit the same spot as the first one and get ineffective that way (overkill). But it could actually do something against a stronger target.
I fell like it is not the same as a straight damage buff and AOE nerf. (Commander damage would need to be assessed because if the missiles both hit... that is bad. for the poor guy)

elfin frigate
#

Yeah agree, their DPS is terrible for their cost
Their cost is way too high, especially Energy
I've been told they are an Early T2 unit, but that doesn't really track with their prohibitive cost.
AOE could be bigger but that can be bad sometimes, they're really bad against scout spam because of their high reload time, this means after the first few scouts their next shots often deal friendly fire.
They have terrible HP for cost
Compare them to a starlight and be prepared to cry. They lose out in range, E cost, HP, you need to fire a starlight 10 times+ for the the E cost to be comparable.
They also lose vs starlights 100%

dire cypress
#

Just like most things that are faster loose to stuff that is slower, when the slow things are already in place.
But there are obviously differences in the amount of hard something fast is countered by the slower version of it. And Starlights are just oppressive in combination with anything that protects them.

iron bronze
#

As faster things are supposed to lose to slower ones, lets not forget, that long range units are supposed to lose to shorter range units. And Starlight comfortably outranges Banisher.
Another thing is that while Starlight crushes Banisher at Banishers max range, it does it 2 times more in close distance. As in close distance Starlight would not have damage dropoff.

dire cypress
#

Starlights are OP. This stays true. But somehow no one dares to touch it.

pine nacelle
#

A fun starlight nerf would be to increase their laser firing duration, simultaneously decreasing it's DPS. This way, a starlight is very good against slow targets, but anything speedy can slip by

pallid sigil
dire cypress
indigo geode
#

we are playing with unit balance

#

dragons are still 5100

rare orbit
#

also with RC units though?

#

there was a minor bug which I fixed, original dragon was cheapened but I completely forgot my remake was a different unit technically

rare orbit
rare orbit
elfin frigate
#

What would that look like if 5 banishers fired at a scout at nearly the same time?

#

Cause the other 4 rockets would be very close to impact already

dire cypress
rare orbit
elfin frigate
#

Could you make the rocket a bit slower to reach the midpoint of the arc and then speed up a lot?

rare orbit
#

that would fuck with tracking massively

#

can kind of do similar though, yes
could mean scouts can dodge them

elfin frigate
#

I would have thought the tracking would allow them to still hit.

My thinking was that if you had like 5, 1 fires first and the other 4 then fire, the first one hits and kills the first unit and the other 4, since they fired after would still be at the midpoint of the arc, ready to speed up and hit new targets

rare orbit
#

it would still amount to when they first fired in both cases, but probably more slack with a staggered arc yes

#

just that the faster it moves, the worse the tracking is

#

I'll brew a test later

elfin frigate
#

It might be okay, since it's already halfway there?

dire cypress
#

Insta hit would solve that, like snipers.
But slow projectiles will always have this problem.

elfin frigate
#

idk, could be a bad idea

rare orbit
#

it won't be able to keep up with any changes, eg a turning scout could dodge shots happily
will test & see though, can probably find values that work well

dire cypress
#

In short terms:
Your projectile needs to be there and have killed it faster than the scout triggered the next shot. So the missiles would need an insane acceleration to achieve what you wish

elfin frigate
#

Insane acceleration was kind of what I was thinking

dire cypress
#

Would look quite different to the current one, but hey, why not.

dire ore
elfin frigate
#

Okay, then reduce starlight dps from 500 pls

dire ore
#

Starlight hits a single target

#

Please don't

elfin frigate
#

Not always, they shoot through units, units can path into the laser.

dire ore
#

Ya did it

elfin frigate
#

Hornet is literally designing a Core unit that utilizes that mechanic.

#

If their DPS isn't relivant let's give them 40s reload and 6k damage then

dire ore
#

Starlight's dps is always going to be as it says. Banisher's is going to be many times more

#

When I say their dps isn't relevant, I mean what the number on their unit card says

willow raven
elfin frigate
#

Reload time and Damage per shot are extremely relevant to how a unit works imo. < Reload time is typically better because spaming units is so effective and in meta. If skirmishing mattered more then the alpha strikes would matter more.

#

But sadly banishers mostly hit scouts, and even sadder banishers often his scouts near your own units, and starlights are better because their reload time is lower and as you said they don't have aoe. So less friendly fire.

dire ore
elfin frigate
#

Because of the AOE?

dire ore
#

Starlight effective dps is going to be like 700-800 in an actual game

#

So the balance should be started from there. Not with the idea banisters dps is 100 and should be brought up to match starlight paper dps

elfin frigate
#

How is starlight DPS 700-800?

rare orbit
elfin frigate
#

I really don't understand, how is their effective DPS in a game that high?

rare orbit
#

banisher into a houndpack, high value. all your banishers wasting 90% of shots on the first tick they all see... not so much

elfin frigate
#

Especially the starlight, they have damage dropoff from being a laser weapon right? I don't see how they can possibly have more than 500 dps and their dps at max range is half that, how does it get to 700-800 without hitting a unit that like chain exploads other units

#

Maybe they should get amphib, I noticed they only deal half damage vs subs, make them able to fire underwater šŸ¤£ (Joking, sounds op as hell)

dire ore
elfin frigate
#

Ignore maths? What should we pay attention to?

dire ore
wintry wasp
#

I do think banisher needs a larger AoE tbh

elfin frigate
#

Pulsar?

#

I mean, a similar unit, it and starlights can't exceed their DPS, they don't deal AOE

dire ore
#

Yeah, pulsar is up to 1k

#

Starlight amd banisher probably doing similar dps then. Starlight just has range and single target adv.

#

I would heavily question anyone calling banisher obscenely underpowered when it saw extensive use in the 2 v 2 tournament, especially closer to finals

#

I think it has a niche and it's good at it

#

Micro intensive but rewarding unit

elfin frigate
#

133 vs 500 (250 at max range), it's a bit dependent on a few things, the starlights hitting (As they often fire at radar dots) and the banisher has to hit multiple units to have higher DPS. But generally starlight outperforms.

#

Lol, which game? If it was in the qualifiers some of those matchups were pretty lopsided.

dire ore
#

Almost every match on that moon map saw banisher

elfin frigate
#

1v1, 2v2, very different dynamic to larger games, I agree they are better in smaller games and more open skirmishy maps, still not worth their E cost though.

dire ore
#

If they need a buff, they don't need a big one

elfin frigate
#

In those games scout spam is much less relevant, ay, ay, maybe that's a thing

tired tinsel
#

banisher is good for open maps less plp
they are more independent and move faster than starlight

elfin frigate
#

Is that what 23k E buys you?

#

I've gone throuh like 15 replays and haven't found one where banishers are built, a few people go T2 on comet but they always built tigers

elfin frigate
dire ore
#

For real? I guess I imagined it. Wrong about a lot of things today.

tired tinsel
#

i guess the idea is if they fire 10 times they break even with a starlight?

willow raven
rare orbit
#

that would be a skill floor buff in reality, OP players would get mental value, mortals would still mostly see 20 banisher rockets paste a single tick

#

banisher needs the opposite, general competency buffs, either real or effective consistent dps

elfin frigate
#

imo a cost reduction would make them more viable, a little less M, a lot less E.

rare orbit
#

maybe, that is safer than stat/handling buffs also

willow raven
rare orbit
#

yeah but some units benefit from differential balance, banisher is not one of them

#

especially given the power vacuum the T2 veh lab has late T2

willow raven
#

Also balance feedback, commando shooting air and build aa seems pretty good. Stealth detech for sniping comms seems... Just like more jank. Anyone used it to your knowledge?

dire ore
tired tinsel
#

lots of units can snipe coms, commando doesn't have to do that

dire ore
#

As for banisher, a cost reduction still doesn't solve the issues both of you presented with unit targeting. Ignore unit widget should be base game.

tired tinsel
#

unless you building a commando to gasp counter commandos

dire ore
#

I didn't even consider the problem because I don't deal with it.

tired tinsel
#

agree some units should get ignore unit toggle options
like ambassador shooting ticks is dumb

dire ore
#

It also completely changes the viability of some units, like making screechers ignore fighters/scouts

#

Also adds depth to the game. Frontline mercury/screamer set to no ignore, backine set to ignore

rare orbit
dire ore
#

It adds micro depth but not annoying apm micro

rare orbit
#

banishers getting retargetting on their shots would be a good buff to try, IMO

#

would still need limits on travel time so no magic missile nonsense occurs, but should be tunable

dire ore
#

What is retargeting? When a unit it targeted dies?

elfin frigate
#

This typically only happens ona fronline with jammers and you rarely see a commando in that situation

rare orbit
dire ore
#

Good buff

tired tinsel
#

seems wierd yeah

willow raven
elfin frigate
#

I use them on a front if I am early pushing with mammoths to repair/reclaim, mine up and stuff

dire ore
#

Commando discussion went no where, maybe a rework is the best way to go

willow raven
#

Long long reclaim range, inbuilt jammer, fast movement, can defend self from a leak or two

elfin frigate
#

They can work well but get sniped easily

elfin frigate
#

I think removing from the twitcher would calm people down about the buffs they have gotten

dire ore
#

Commando got the aa?

elfin frigate
#

Their weapon can target Air.

rare orbit
elfin frigate
#

And have intrusition dection and have emp res

rare orbit
#

twitchers make it maybe a little too easy to do all in lab-eating timing attacks though

#

that said they are still counterable, people just don't know how/aren't in habit of it

elfin frigate
#

I know, but it is a very strong gotchya attack

rare orbit
#

yah, it's a 'feels bad' moment, for sure

dire ore
#

I'd like to be able to make gauss cannons with twitches

elfin frigate
#

They used to be able to, some with consules

rare orbit
#

I did make a tweak putting the T2 defences on them, apparently it led to some 'interesting' games
which IMO was skill issue but hey ho

elfin frigate
#

but I think it was removed because techers would hand them out willy nilly and they were built way too quickly everywhere

rare orbit
#

well, the examples I saw, someone spammed scorpions, but the other guy just kept rallying tigers into them, rather than just building long range anything

#

not sure that proved much about the twitcher, but it was part of the 'remove land unit construction and turn them defence engie instead' phase

dire ore
#

Functionality nerfs are lame.

#

If I've learned anything from other games I've played, letting the average player have a say in balance is a big mistake.

elfin frigate
#

You know, something has always urked me about the twitcher/consule.

#

Consules can build a bunch of Bots, allowing the Vech route to access a few choice bots. But Twitchers only allow access to bots, shouldn't they allow the construction of some choice Vechs?

dire ore
#

I don't see a reason for it to be symmetrical like that

rare orbit
elfin frigate
#

Could it be balanced the other way, consule could instead build arm vehcs, idk

dire ore
#

I suppose

rare orbit
#

see the various threads about it. there wasn't much that was completely fair/viable as balanced options

#

iirc it boiled down to jaguars, turtles, and pincers?

elfin frigate
#

Yeah it seems like a hard topic

dire ore
#

I just think games are more interesting when players have wide toolsets. If consul was problematic, then buff butler, twitcher, and make a good T2 cortex vic engi

rare orbit
#

forge was that attempt

dire ore
#

Always the easy route...

dire ore
rare orbit
#

printer could maybe do with radar and jammer veh options

#

I dislike that junos can free pop them, and core have the slowest options there, so replacements are crippled

#

I did get something of a speed buff in, but they are still slow

dire ore
#

Printer is barebones atm. Seems very unfinished.

rare orbit
#

suggestions welcome, but it will be fairly minimalist

dire ore
#

When I saw how little it could make I expected an ability beyond repair while moving

rare orbit
#

it's more of a combat butler than a twitcher

dire ore
#

What about multi repair

rare orbit
#

would usually be same as just buffing repair speed

dire ore
#

I don't think so. High single target repair would be more OP than a medium aoe repair

willow raven
rare orbit
#

problem is they would almost always latch onto main target

#

so effectively, double repair

dire ore
#

Medium aoe repair could repair 3x the effective rate and be less powerful than a high single target

rare orbit
#

fun fact it already HAS two nanos, just one is 1bp, and most people never notice as they usually target the same thing

#

any second nano of any power would do same thing

elfin frigate
#

I find the printer amazing as is

#

Would be happy with radar jammer added to build list, but it's tackiness and auto repair make it great in a ball of tigers/banishers

tired tinsel
#

consul making half the t2 bot lab is pretty op ngl

#

but like plat/webbers are cool utility units so oh well

#

consul build list should probably be trimmed, take out sprinter etc

elfin frigate
#

imo remove gunslinger from them, like we have in this pack and commando from twitcher

tired tinsel
#

yeah def
wasn't gunslinger removed from it already?
combat engineer build list should be units that provide neccesary utility so the lab can interact on other sectors (plat/destroyer on water, webber on all terrain) and some light t1

elfin frigate
#

Yeah

#

In this tweak, like I said

elfin frigate
#

Are Commandos a high priority target?

#

I'm not sure if people target them over higher value units

#

I've been using them with mammoths lately and they seem to get targeted a lot, idk if it's players targeting them or auto targeting

dire cypress
#

Back to banishers.
A inherent problem is time a projectile hit is so much apart from when it is shot. So over kill is a massive thing when building more of them. They don't scale well because of that. Starlights kill at an instance and reload faster... So they are better against scout streams. Could the banisher missiles fly a bit faster or do this fire, and then accelerate like hell thing?
Any slow phase will just be the same old story of pre damage phase of core is many seconds longer than the. Pre damage phase of arm. That is one reason tremors suck so hard, too

elfin frigate
#

I think someone made a widget way back that predicted if a projectile would kill a target and order other units to target it. This was like BA days

pallid sigil
dire cypress
#

Could/should that be a thing for BAR?
It would change the balance quite a bit.

And how is the widget called? I am asking for a friend šŸ˜‰

pallid sigil
dire cypress
#

For a good reason!

wintry wasp
#

Using the same thing chainsaws do(did?) where they retarget onto "the next thing which entered range" rather than killing the target they first attack could be interesting? But it does come with other downsides

thick inlet
dire cypress
#

Sure because it is faster and has more BP per metal. Their units can retreat so the repair units don't need to stand in the fire.

To compensate for that the slower unit that needs to expose itself to damage must have a smaller build list.

Something among those lines.

But in all honesty: the printer can be very nice, if there are no Starlights or Sharpshooters.

flat mason
# elfin frigate Yeah agree, their DPS is terrible for their cost Their cost is way too high, esp...

That all may be, but here's the thing about Banishers. They cost a lot but are usable right out the gate, unlike Starlights which need energy to fire, and you don't use them like Starlights, they're entirely a different unit. You basically can just put them in your tank hotkey and go bullying everybody that doesn't have Starlights.

What Banishers do is force the enemy to engage your tank ball on your terms and force them to approach. You no longer have to zerg your whole Tiger ball to do any damage, and therefore suffer attrition. In the course of their movement, Tigers will naturally pull in front of the Banishers, and then if you turn the whole army around, the tigers are still shielding them and pushing them along while they retreat. Banishers make extremely short work of any remaining commanders, which keeps your tigers safe and gives them more options for engaging.

In effect, their DPS per metal is not great, but they make up for that by giving your tiger ball more options. Damage they do is HP that your tanks no longer have to brawl through. The best defense is a good offense, but you're playing Cortex and making Tigers. Por que no los dos? If you get on a roll with them, it can be hard for enemies to stop your momentum unless they either invest in expensive units or a gigantic swarm of many, many cheap ones, and if they do the latter, you can always add a few Salamanders to keep the train rolling, or a Juno to give yourself a window to push without fear, which also helps against Starlights and their radar/jammer groupies.

You fight Starlights with Quakers. Banishers aren't meant to fight mano a mano with Starlights. They're not meant to fight mano a mano with anything. They're a midline unit, meant to add some range to a tank ball without slowing it down, rather than act as slow rolling snipers that need their own hotkey.

iron bronze
# flat mason That all may be, but here's the thing about Banishers. They cost a lot but are u...

Oh my...
Starlights cost far less e. You can kill multiple Banishers before they arrive at Banisher e cost.

Banishers have less range than Mausers, while basicly same aoe, half more dps but 3 times more metal price and 5 times more e price. Banishers do not force enmy to approach you, on the contrary, you force yourself to approach the enemy. Bulls win against Tigers, and you are forcing your Tigers/Banisher to run into Bulls and Mausers/Starlights in suicide attack. Tigers at least have speed, but if you add Mausers they cant even use their speed.

Tigers have more dps than Banishers. And far more hp.

Starlights outrange Quakers, Mausers also outrange Quakers. Also as said, Bulls crush Tigers. Not convinced about attacking Arm armys with Quakers.

elfin frigate
#

I think we should not exactly compare starlights and banishers as you are right they are different roles, but the cost differences are egregiously in favor of arm imo. And there isn't anything else to compare to. Yet.

#

Well actually Banishers are similar M cost to Bulls, Not E cost. Comparing how effective they are might be more relevant? idk.

lucid nymph
#

Banishers having some AA ability is nice, though that's only a minor part of their utility

#

Conceptually they're kinda a jack of all trades unit for tank balls

elfin frigate
#

The AA aspect is nice when it happens, though tbh it doesn't come up that much. Not many people actually send gunships to fight an army.

lucid nymph
#

I've had it come up as air when I threw shuri at t2 army

#

but one flak vic shuts that down anyway

rustic dust
lucid nymph
#

eyeballing, a banisher is about 1/3 to 1/2 as scary as a dedicated flak vic when it comes to AA?

#

the most relevant air threat is liche bombers and emp bombers

elfin frigate
#

It depends what you throw at them they're actually really good vs Dragons, but that rarely comes up.

#

Maybe the problem is that the meta is too stale, Arty wall vs arty wall with scout spam (Not on all maps or amounts of players) and banishers can't do what they're designed to in such a meta.

rustic dust
#

Cor is a faction of many great units which the meta, particularly in 8v8, largely turns into irrelevant units.

lucid nymph
#

I often find myself sorely missing armada's ability to get one particular hostile unit to fuck right out of existence

rustic dust
#

Usually that particular hostile unit i wish to delete is one of 2 specific arm t3 units, which is its own issue

iron bronze
#

Correct me if I am wrong, but Mauser cost 320 metal and Banisher 1000, so you get 3,125Mausers for a cost of Banisher in metal. Mauser cost 4900 energy, and Mauser 23000, so you get 4,69 Mausers for a cost of Banisher in energy.

lucid nymph
#

ja

rustic dust
#

Yes. In exchange, banishers are a vastly different unit

iron bronze
elfin frigate
#

Hoooornet

#

Remove commando from Twitcher next BP version pls, people are concerned that buffs to it make it too hard to stop early if rushed. I think this abates that fear and people would be more willing to accept the changes to it

#

Also, apparantly we need another $ in the description so commando changes are on their own line

tired tinsel
#

i think it's good for unit health for an iconic unit not to be buildable from engineer

#

more scoutable, can't just casually give twitcher to any teammate or, reclaim lab

#

if you want to build multiple commandos you have to commit and have the lab running

rare orbit
#

yus, I'd agree. the plays I've seen that seemed 'OP' were part bad reaction, partly the ability to turn the lab itself into commandos

wintry wasp
elfin frigate
#

Nice!!

tired tinsel
#

for sure. a balanced harrass unit probably is gonna screw people who have no idea how to defend it. same for blitz/grunt, com drop, etc.

indigo geode
elfin frigate
#

Sounds balanced to me

flat mason
# iron bronze Oh my... Starlights cost far less e. You can kill multiple Banishers before they...

Starlights cost far less e. You can kill multiple Banishers before they arrive at Banisher e cost.
and Starlights cost 200 more metal and explode violently when they die. :3c All E cost does is prevent you from making a lot of them too quickly, but once you have Banishers, they are perfectly usable at any time no matter how many you have, even if your eco is crashing because the wind was op.

Banishers have less range than Mausers, while basicly same aoe, half more dps but 3 times more metal price and 5 times more e price.

Who cares? Banishers have 2500 hit points. Their homing missiles do insane burst damage and they can fire while running away from an angle. Mausers have range that threatens t1 units, but their low damage pellets can only fire 180 degrees in front of themselves. If the Mausers dont kill everything charging at them, they won't get far if they have to flee from Banishers because the missiles will connect and start oneshotting them.

Mausers don't have the firepower to kill Banishers with Tiger escorts before they close the gap and get one shot. Yeah, at the start of t2 Mausers are op, but you better not be expecting Mausers to be the end of your tech 2 unit comp or you're gonna be in for some pain.

Tigers at least have speed, but if you add Mausers they cant even use their speed.

lmao you cannot be serious. Tigers do not care about Mauser pellets, they are too beefy and too quick. The Mausers fire a shot or two and now the tigers are in their faces killing them. The only time Tigers care about Mausers is if they have low numbers and you have a wall of Jags in front, and Jags die nigh-instantly to Banishers.

Bulls win against Tigers, and you are forcing your Tigers/Banisher to run into Bulls and Mausers/Starlights in suicide attack.

I see Arm also has unlimited metal and can just make all the units in the game for free in huge numbers. :3c

Tigers have more dps than Banishers. And far more hp.
and Banishers have twice the range. :3c

#

Starlights outrange Quakers, Mausers also outrange Quakers. Also as said, Bulls crush Tigers. Not convinced about attacking Arm armys with Quakers.
Now here's where the tricky part comes in. :3c All that shit is true on paper.

In practice, though, your attack range with precision weapons like Mausers and Starlights is limited by the vision radius of your radar vehicles, which is 900. In practice, that's a great equalizer unless you're flinging t1 spam at them, which is an added cost. So Quakers frequently get the drop on units such as these, especially in high-pressure situations where you're not just free to leisurely drive them up behind a friend in groups of 10 with a complete unit comp all set up and giftwrapped.

in these situations, especially when Cortex has the t1 spam going, Quakers can fire a volley and annihilate several units in one attack, without a chance of counterattack, so the DPS hardly matters here. Quakers' AoE also makes a big difference when it comes to killing Starlights because it weakens the whole ball of them, and then they die together when even one of them gets killed.

In practice, you might be surprised at how effective Quakers are at killing Starlights. You might lose a few of them, but each Quaker is a fraction of the cost of one Starlight.

Now onto Bulls: Bulls are great tanks. Fearsome units. Love seeing them on my side. :3c But they are expensive as fuck. You can't ignore that they cost 50% more than a Tiger, and if they get softened up by Banishers before the fight even stars, now you see why Banishers and Tigers are the counter to Bulls. :3c You have a wall of bulls? Ok, show me what they got. I'll wait here and reduce them to 460 hp before you even get here. If you lose even one Bull, it's a devastating loss to your DPS, and it greatly swings the battle in Cor's favor. That's why Banisher alpha strike is so potent. Bulls cost a ton more than Tigers and have less HP. :3c

#

All these things we list off here are options, but aside from the Mauser, Armada's vehicle options are all more expensive than Cor's and more specialized, so they lose a lot more in opportunity cost by having to mix their unit comp. Cor's far cheaper Tiger is a huge advantage here because they can always afford an armored backbone to build around, whereas with Bulls, they're too expensive and fragile to be an armored backbone of an entire unit comp that includes other expensive units unless your eco is op enough to go t3. It takes a lot longer for that comp to come online compared to Cor's Tiger/Banisher, because both of Arm's comparable units are more expensive.

hushed rampart
#

Hello there

I have some things to say about the hornet patch 0.62

While I consider most of its changes are quite interesting, I also think some of them are really dangerous for the Armada viability.

I precise I usually play both faction with the same regularity, ~30 TS in duel/team and ~40 in FFA, as micro intensive player more than macro efficient, so I think I have a good view of the game on this point.

First, concerning Janus. I can understand why you want nerf it again, but I would remember that it cannot snip a com anymore, except in case of a great missplay from the oponent. Besides, if Janus is quite wonderfull in hit and run situation, as well for small corridor control, it is easely abuse by fast units like rascal/Rovers/ticks, and even grunt/pawn, and usually do a lot of friendly damages. For the same reason, they are quite vulnƩrables to a frontal tank assault, as well for arty shoots, due to there poor health compared to others vehi.

That mean there is no good reason to nerf the unit again. More, I am pretty sure that reduce range and com damages would just destroy the unit... And so, the arm vehi opening, as Janus is there only compared advantage during T1 (I mean, Blitz are strong, but not THAT strong, especially facing a pounder)

#

Concerning this one : [09:15] Coordinator: Gunslinger: general buffs & greater AoE, removed from consul

Gunslinger always been a great unit, a little weak against tanks, but quite OP with a good micro. Still, a little squeechy, so why not about the buff range while they gain xp : I mean, it's a way to solve it, if you consider this is an issue.

However, about consul... Poor, poor consul. You want is death, don't you ? :') as he cannot build recluse (just webber), nor hound, anymore, gunsliger is the only strong T2 unit he can access - of course, sprinter is still a good option for raid, but even during a fair fight they lose against Fiends. That means Twitcher is a much more viable option for help your frontliner production, and so armada techer / support are slighty less efficient in this task.

More about this comparaison between twitcher and consul : as twitchers can build thermite, which have a great EMP resistance (so no match against webbers) and already win every fights against recluse, Consuls would just be not reliable at all anymore with this patch.

As last point, and to continue my comparaison between recluse and thermite, even if thermites cost slightly more resources than a recluse, there is no match between them. Of course, I agree that, as siege / raiding units, recluse are much more efficient, and thermites has a much more defensive role, but... They can easely reckt a T1 bot frontline, with change from the patch :')

#

(cf. : Termites: +7 speed, +110 range, +85 damage (remember this is usually halved by dropoff) : that's incredibly hudge, even considering the dropoff)

#

as reminder, here are the complete change :

[09:15] Coordinator: Hornet Balance Pack 0.62 (details and feedback thread is on Discord)
[09:15] Coordinator: Core dgun now same range as Arm's
[09:15] Coordinator: Dragon now 4500 metal, Legion Flying Fortress HP and cost buff also
[09:15] Coordinator: Battleships: slight range increase. Arm now longer ranged.
[09:15] Coordinator: T2 torp launchers: Less metal.
[09:15] Coordinator: Thor: EMP cost increased, slight nerf to HP, alpha damage, boost to chaining.
[09:15] Coordinator: Arm T2 AA bot: fires much faster. Cor T2 AA bot: increase to speed, range and damage, slight reload buff. Both now worth building.
[09:15] Coordinator: Gunslinger: general buffs & greater AoE, removed from consul$Commando: Can build AA, detect stealth units, has EMP resistance, and shoots air units
[09:15] Coordinator: Sumo: less energy per shot
[09:15] Coordinator: Janus: Handling nerfs, -20 range, less commander damage
[09:15] Coordinator: Shiva: better firing mechanics, has some missile tracking
[09:15] Coordinator: HLT: build ~30% faster
[09:15] Coordinator: Termites: +7 speed, +110 range, +85 damage (remember this is usually halved by dropoff)
[09:15] Coordinator: Tremor: spread fire mode narrowed as above, thus damage density improved, and fire rate 20% increased

#

Last, I would remark that, with this patch, Commando would be the only mobile unit who detect stealth units, which is... an interesting change. I can't pronounce about atm (besides, I love this unit, so I would be happy to see more during my games). However, and as Armada don't have any equivalent unit, it's hard to predict the efficiency in game. Could be game breaker, actually^^".

iron bronze
# flat mason > Starlights cost far less e. You can kill multiple Banishers before they arrive...

You said:
"That all may be, but here's the thing about Banishers. They cost a lot but are usable right out the gate, unlike Starlights which need energy to fire"
Wrong, Starlights can kill multiple Banishers before getting to Banisher e cost. If e is limiting factor, you get Starlights out sooner. And if you transform e to metal, there is almost no difference in price. Starlights crush Banisher so hard, even if you ignore e cost ad account for metal.

"What Banishers do is force the enemy to engage your tank ball on your terms and force them to approach."
Wrong, Starlights and Mausers have more range, you are the one forced to engage enemy's tank ball that is supported by long range weapons.

"Damage they do is HP that your tanks no longer have to brawl through."
They do much less damage per metal, than Tigers, so your Tiger ball has much less dps and hp if you add banishers. While your Tiger ball will still have less range than Mausers and Starlights.

"You fight Starlights with Quakers."
Starlights outrange (and singleshot?) Quakers.

"They're a midline unit, meant to add some range to a tank ball without slowing it down"
Banishers are much slower than Tigers.

"I see Arm also has unlimited metal and can just make all the units in the game for free in huge numbers. :3c"
Bulls crush Tigers for same metal cost.

"In practice, though, your attack range with precision weapons like Mausers and Starlights is limited by the vision radius of your radar vehicles, which is 900"
Mausers are not precision weapons, Gremlins give perfect vision for Arm vehicules. And Cor cant even see radar dots if Arm uses jammers or Juno to kill radars.

"now you see why Banishers and Tigers are the counter to Bulls"
As already said, Bulls crush Tigers and Banishers in direct confrontation metalwise šŸ™‚

hushed rampart
#

TLDR : This patch feels like another massive overall for cortex. As most of its changes are quite welcome, like sumo energy cost or Tremor efficiency, some are quite dangerous for the balance, as the Janus/Consul debuff, as well for the Thermite buff.

I don't know who I have to implore to remove these 3 changes from the patch. The accuracy of my opinions can easely be veryfied by looking at the current state of the game, and the way games are played, but I can give exemple if there is a need to.

elfin frigate
#

Yeah that gunslinger buff sure helps cortex

hushed rampart
#

your irony has no place here :')

2 armada buffs, 2 armada debuffs, 4 cortex buffs. I mean... Quite obvious.

#

(and one of this armada buffs are about AA bots T2, which are really bad atm)

elfin frigate
#

The Janus can still deal an ass ton of damage to coms (And other units), it goes from like 6 volleys to 9, you make it sound like that it's completely unviable. Those T1 units bully commanders. Cortex has nothing in comparison, the Pounder is great at what it does but it's com food because of it's range an mobility. I'd love to see some replays of the difference.

hushed rampart
#

Janus are quite micro intensive AND vulnerable to alot of things, as I already developped here
#1186850950770610207 message

I agree it's an hard matchup, but not an umbalanced one, as there is alot of solutions against (light units to trigger there shots on non-efficients targets) / arty / more medium tank and good fight positions

#

more, if you let 6+ Janus get in range of your com with no protection, it's not the janus fault, it's a missplay :') 2 snipers shots insta kill a com, but you don't blame them for it, right ?

digital wasp
#

way easy to build up 6 janus in the early game when com position matters a lot

elfin frigate
#

It's less of them being bursted by 6 janus in one go and more of the fact that you can roll in with 3, fire outside of range and repeat = dead com

digital wasp
#

janus is so omega imba vs com there is literally 0 risk to just fire a volley and retreat

hushed rampart
# digital wasp way easy to build up 6 janus in the early game when com position matters a lot

that's true and wrong in the same time, cause Janus cost alot, just like pounder or medium tank. Try to build 6 janus early on comet catcher, and you will just die cause you can't protect your resources.

Your assertition is more justify on map like Supreme / team games, where a frontline of Janus can more easely be protected by LLT / com, but in this case, arty is your counter

it cost slighty less than Janus, and destroy it

elfin frigate
#

It's still freaken dangerous to coms too, imo you're over reacting to the nerf, it's still 400 damage a pop. You can't just run into janus with the tweak on

digital wasp
#

janus are also valuable on ccr idk what u talking about they are about same cost as medium tank and CCR is literally medium tank spam for 20 minutes

elfin frigate
#

Though yeah I agree team games they are more oppressive

digital wasp
#

its just worse in teamgame cause u can literally start the game and do nothing but build janus for 2 minutes and u can basically kill everything in game with ur alpha strike

hushed rampart
# elfin frigate It sounds like you shouldn't build 6 janus on comet catcher then

that's exactly what I mean^^ mass Janus is not a viable solution in duel / small team / FFA, especially cause of there cost, but also cause you can trigger there shots and avoid it, just like Widow mines in SC2.

It can be an issue in team games, but arty play really destroy them, and I am willing to show you whenever you want :')

digital wasp
#

I would love to make janus as first unit vs arty spammer

#

its a shame playing in the frontline as top ts is omega ass

hushed rampart
elfin frigate
#

I don't think we want BAR to play like SC2 though, the difference in skill for using/fighting janus can be so big.

hushed rampart
#

and no, I will not build only arty, but mostly arty

digital wasp
#

everytime i playing frontline and i zoom out and 2 of the teammates i playing the game for are making fusion i just wanna resign imo

hushed rampart
#

here the counter is to deviate shots with smaller and really light units, which cost nothing, to protect your valuables assets, while you use long range / hight DPS units for destroy them

digital wasp
elfin frigate
#

You can also hold fire and target the coms or valuable units

digital wasp
#

you send the fleas in, i retreat my janus under llt, then u walk ur units in ok by that time the janus will have reloaded

#

what units do u expect to walk in with enough alpha strike to do anything meaningful to retreating janus

willow raven
#

Also there is no T0 spam that is free...

digital wasp
#

the only good unit vs janus is dragon claw

#

oh wait thats just good vs all units pepeyep pepeyep pepeyep pepeyep pepeyep pepeyep pepeyep pepeyep pepeyep pepeyep pepeyep pepeyep pepeyep

elfin frigate
#

I get your points Tenebos, but most people find Janus oppressive. You're going to have a hard time convincing people otherwise.

digital wasp
#

maybe in ur balance pack u can make Maws and Claws open at same speed, atm Claws open faster and fire faster whereas Maws open very slowly so core is even more bad op

willow raven
digital wasp
#

yes

elfin frigate
#

Man Claws are so much better than maws it's not funny

digital wasp
#

Maws can also miss very easily and do very little aoe

elfin frigate
#

More range, more alpha, don't miss, chain, no friendly fire, actually kill ticks

willow raven
#

I'm amazed they don't have cloak too.

digital wasp
#

they texchnically have radar stealth and dont leave a ghost because they are treated as a feature

#

thats why when u area reclaim it doesnt reclaim maws and claws

willow raven
elfin frigate
#

They like 'become' a dragon tooth when down essentially

hushed rampart
# digital wasp people say stuff like this but in practice there isnt enough windows for units t...

ok, case one : I have 4 rovers and 5 medium tanks against 6 janus (cost is quite equilibrate between thos 2 copos). I trigger your first shots with 2 rovers, and except if you are quite good, your every janus will fire, then I will be on you with my medium tanks squad before you can fire a second shot nor retreat, cause Janus rotation is slow af xD

I will destroy between 2 and 4 janus before you fire again, and will be in contact while you fire, so you will damage your own units.

At the end, the most probable is I will still have 2 medium tank and 2 rovers, while you will have 1 janus left (or none).

But you know what ? This configuration need a good mastery of the fight. You need a good timing, every players don't have it, right ?

So, case two : I have 8 arty, 2 LLT and 4 rovers against 5/6 Janus (still same almost same prince). I will continusly fire on you with my arty, so you want push me, right ? But if you push, your first Janus shot will be triggered by my rovers, and then you cannot push my LLT until you reload, you lose quite alot HP, and you have to back... While still under arty fire

#

case 3 (still on same price) : 4 blitz / 4 rovers against 3 janus : I still trigger the first shot with rover, when you fire again I am in contact, so I abuse you with friendly damage.

digital wasp
#

its not like suddenly ur opponent wont see ur 1km invested army

willow raven
hushed rampart
#

I proposed you 2 offensives strat and 1 defensive :')

digital wasp
#

idk i dont like to theorycraft i just play the game

elfin frigate
#

They're not high risk at all that's the primary problem, they run in fire, run away, repeat

hushed rampart
digital wasp
#

i think a lot of people posting in this thread need a good ass whoopin cause they got some strongly weird opinions

hushed rampart
#

counter Janus is not that easy, but it's possible.

In the other hand, debuff janus again, and they will be not usefull at all anymore. In a such case, Armada has just one less option than cortex as T1

#

and as they also have a debuff in T2 with consul, well...

#

you know, I mostly play the game, but when I find a situation I don't know how to counter, I do not comply nor rage : I think about, and that's when I do theory craft.

digital wasp
elfin frigate
#

Most, Cortex has grunts

digital wasp
#

that only applies to small teamgame maps

hushed rampart
#

it seems you didn't watch the 2v2 tournament last week, don't you :')

elfin frigate
#

Weren't you in it glass?

digital wasp
#

almost like a 2v2 tournament is small teamgame which uses different map pools and plays entirely different than big teamgame

#

no i didnt play this time

#

arm bots are vastly superior in teamgame atm, rockos so much better than storm, they keep track of their target much easier with their better turret turnrate, so u can micro them up and down to dodge rockets while yours hit their targets

#

storm turn so slowly they lose so much firerate the more they move cause they cant aim at their target

#

and everyone knows the only thing that matters is rocket bots gg

willow raven
hushed rampart
#

Unlike you and despite your critiscism, I find the game relatively balanced, and that's why you won't see me here usually. Of course there are units better than there counter part, like fiends compared to sprinters, or, sadly for my beloved recluse, thermite against, but you have interesting options and counters for each sides.

The point of balance patches is to make underused units interesting and, conversely, to nerf overused/too strong units. For a very simple reason truly : you can analyse data about which units are played, and which one win a matchup. However, when you rely exclusively on the players' feelings (and here, on the player salt, mostly) as designer, you can make mistakes... and I am quite informed about as designer myself : I litteraly ate from the quality of such balancing.

As player, check this : do you constantly face mass Janus, or rocketeers ? No ? So ask yourself why. Reason here is simple : there are solutions against and/or the unit is not that stronk. We could say as well for snipers, or for EMP bombers.

This is your main criteria : is there a strat too much used, or a strat too little used. And with this only criteria, I can tell you that Janus, Consul and Thermite do not requiere modification, nor buff nor debuff, while tremor, sumo and even T2 torpedo launcher could benefits from.

willow raven
# hushed rampart Unlike you and despite your critiscism, I find the game relatively balanced, and...

I hope that's first comment is not directed at me, because I said I don't think janus were OP. But on you later point, I saw consul rush a ton. All the high rank lobbys were running that remove hounds from consul mod. Never saw a twitcher. Then recluse were dominating a ton of matches, termites? Where? No one bothered. This buff might be too big, but they can get a little love. Recluse got a huge buff with the rocket tracking elevation. And they were already used way more.

flat mason
placid ridge
#

Thermites are in the uber unit pack I would say a t3 joke unit would be better than a t2 spider yeah.

flat mason
#

I know, but they're using the name as if it's the termite

placid ridge
#

Well that's because they silly billies

hushed rampart
#

still love recluse for there damage efficiency on building, but quite hard to contest map like ascendancy while playing armada

flat mason
hushed rampart
#

I am pretty sure you also lose cost to cost, at least was last time I checked.

elfin frigate
#

Rememebr termites have damage falloff

flat mason
#

Nope, I have run that test many many times in several scenarios

elfin frigate
#

Recluse don't, and can fire up and down hills at crazy angles where they can be safe

flat mason
#

It's not even close, the recluses stomp unless you apply one of Hornet's buff patches to the termite, and the recluses hold still. Even then... it is very much not a stomp for the termites.

#

If the recluses micro at all they still win

hushed rampart
#

well, first, termite don't cost "ton more" than recluse : they cost 1.5x metal price. It's heavier, but not that heavier.

flat mason
#

And they have much shorter range and less speed, so recluses can kite forever

hushed rampart
#

secondly, termite shots are quite more precise, and cannot avoid by micro

#

depends of the cliff profile

#

on relatively flat cliffs, like on Glitters for example, yes, recluse advantage (under certain placement conditions). On very jagged cliffs, like Ascendancy or LXR (I never remember the full name), 100% termite advantage

flat mason
#

Termites are huge slow targets and if any shots connect they're dead.

I'm going to bed. Post replays of whatever tests you've run of this we can figure out what nonsense you're up to, because everyone knows termites suck, especially on the two maps where spiders matter most, DSD and Koom.

#

They absolutely get clowned on by Recluses. It is not even close.

hushed rampart
#

you forget the spreading of recluse missile, which is of course quite strong when you have a big spider ball, but not that good in many others cases

elfin frigate
#

Guys, why does a mammoth cost 75 E a shot and a Razor costs 0?

random forum
#

Is this pack really considered to be merged into main game one day?

violet geyser
pallid sigil
#

and grunt doesnt

dire cypress
wintry wasp
#

I thought this and similar works as testing unit-balance options to see what impacts they have to help the GDT make decisions

dire ore
#

The lategame rebalance option is far worse than this one. And that came from a core dev.

solar rose
#

What version of this is behind the ingame checkbox?

violet geyser
rare orbit
#

lots of discussion, but in brief, regarding the pack mostly being coretex buffs: that is in part because there is a very real 'core tax' that this is eroding back towards parity. by definition that means more changes will affect core than not.

arm units with issues I am also looking at, eg centurion I want to bugfix in base game, never mind the pack.

dire cypress
rare orbit
#

yup, need replays and data. and unfortunately any correction of imbalance will also lead to people thinking it's imba from the accustomed status quo (in some cases correctly, this is still experimental and pre-alpha)

#

eg janus, are still oppressive even with the relatively light nerfs. what I really want to see there is pro 1v1s using the pack, and not just a one off, but a few once they're used to the changes

#

I would strongly suspect you'd see they're still powerful, just not 'free com delete tool'

#

further to core/arm issues, turtle was underperforming, but needed more than the pack could give it. it now has AA in base game, making it more of a utility hardpoint than a metal sink 'slow raider'

dire cypress
#

#šŸŽžļøļ½œbar-videos message

Janus OP in 2v2

rare orbit
#

T1 arm ships are undergoing main game changes so I'm leaving them out of this for now. battleship viability in T2 though, arm needed a bit of help with. it might still be that corbats needs a touch more range, I've not seen enough games yet where it mattered

#

arm T2 fighters I have tried to balance before, it's a tricky one as a lot of it is rng

#

without an autobattler that can try incremental changes in bulk it's really hard to dial that one in

violet geyser
#

for whatever its worth, since you mentioned the official turtle buff. That buff is a joke. Its the same "buff" like the one the Termite got. Absolutely useless, irrelevant, changes nothing.

rare orbit
#

termite model change? that was highly significant actually, but isn't all they need

#

turtle is probably still too expensive for what it does though, yes

violet geyser
#

Noone is gonna build an awkward t2 tank for 750 metal regardless wether is does 50 damage to air or not.

rare orbit
#

they're pretty hardy. issue is they are also 'dgun me please' units

tired tinsel
#

the aa is just to stop com ddrop dgunning them

violet geyser
#

And the termite got stats changed (cost reduction) is what im referring to. Still a useless unit, too inefficient.

rare orbit
#

that I agree with yes, hence pack improvements

violet geyser
#

Just ask yourself would anyone build a Tiger for 1500 metal.....PROBABLY NOT

tired tinsel
#

termite can be funny on certain maps
why 1500 metal?

violet geyser
#

its fairly costed for 650 and for 1500 it would be not efficient. Similar to the turtle that isnt worth 750.

tired tinsel
#

corbats were pretty decent. expesnive but low bp time for repair and building

#

yeah turtle sucks

#

it's outdone by the heavier poison arrow (splash means rushing it has more impact)
and salamander vs turtle is no contest

violet geyser
#

the poison arrow is far better but its also i believe 1200 (??).

#

i have seen some people try to use turtle like poison arrow (rushing it) and boy that didnt work out ever.

elfin frigate
violet geyser
#

frankly either every laser weapon should need E to fire, or none at all as far as i am concerned

dire cypress
violet geyser
#

why would sumo and mammoth require energy, but razorback wouldnt pepethink

elfin frigate
violet geyser
violet geyser
dire cypress
#

Why would a sharpshooter pay less e per damage than a sumo?
Why would a core rover take more than 2,5 times the energy to shoot? Why would a gremlin take less e to cloak than a spy cam? Why would there be a sneaky Pete?

#

Why would the D-gun range be effectively longer?

violet geyser
rare orbit
#

dgun is probably main killer of turtles when used as amphib raid

elfin frigate
#

Dude, com dropping on raiding turtles was the most efffective way to kill them, they are raiding units in enemy territory.

rare orbit
#

people just fly the coms in and free delete

violet geyser
rare orbit
#

...because people are out of habit due to free delete being easy counter?

elfin frigate
#

Yeah cause they got dguned by dropping coms or gunships

violet geyser
#

we dont need to argue about dgunning turtles when turtles rarely show up ever

elfin frigate
rare orbit
#

not saying turtles might not need -more-, but they are very tanky units

violet geyser
#

i see your point but i dont think thats the cause. Arm player probably better off using marauders than turtles and core player (which is mostly sea as of right now) makes salamander or demon

rare orbit
#

turtle is basically core balance unit in an arm lab, hence why it feels so wonky

#

if T3 is option then yes rauders better, but while not, turtles still have a role

violet geyser
#

anyways if the gist of your argument is that turtle was supressed because it was easily dgun-able and AA change fixed that, ergo now turtles assaults become common then my reply would: i very strongly doubt it will play out that way.

#

we will see what happens, unit is just not worth it and by the way the "buff" only applies to com dropping. It doesnt counter dgun per se so you can either drop a bit off or, most probably, a commander is nearby anyway, AA or not.

rare orbit
#

entirely possible, but I would like to see changes percolate a bit first. otherwise a double buff will lead to a kneejerk turtlespam and they may 'seem op' as metas shift about

violet geyser
#

thats fair, sure.

dire cypress
#

And the sneaky Pete is the second delete button.

rare glade
#

If your mammoths, tzars, behes are getting dgun then you are failing to support them tbf

#

Can't really support the turtles in enemy base

rare orbit
#

pete usage is kind of a skillplay, but it is a weird one in that you need to scoutspam, and counter to scoutspam, is juno, which is also the pete removal tool
so you shoot yourself for certain, vs (possibly) enemy

rare glade
#

Could buff the turtles all you want, still be faster to go t3 and make Maras then actually trying to send a turtle across the map

elfin frigate
#

You can always send T1 AA bots with them, from an amphib lab or consule

rare orbit
#

AA exists in same lab. parrow could do with either light AA or oiled turret too, probably

elfin frigate
#

I like the buff, but it wasn't the only option

rare orbit
#

they're another weird one where OP when rushed, but suffer for it by being creaky for rest of game

rare glade
#

I just don't get why every amphib unit so ridiculously slow, then you have the Mara out running everything but scouts and planes lol

rare orbit
dire cypress
elfin frigate
#

Poison arrows are a terrible raiding unit by themselves, their los is like half their range

rare orbit
#

I need to specifically invest some games into hard amphib transitions instead of naval and see how that specifically plays out. usually it depends too much on air support IME, but would be worth trying specifically as I have several more ideas now

elfin frigate
#

imo Amphib needs some kind of high LOS or radar unit. And the T1 or T2 AA bots could help with that.

rare orbit
elfin frigate
#

What?

rare orbit
#

decoy com OP

elfin frigate
#

LOL I have used those but their speed is prohibitive.

rare glade
#

In most cases I skip t2 naval entirely, and go right to amphib once I have sea control. I still would never make an amphib lab. If I have enough control of sea to make an amphib lab close enough, then odds are I can make a normal lab on thier Beach

rare orbit
#

they're not nippy but are actually solid support

elfin frigate
#

Their LOS, BP for reapir, building rada,r llts, mines, and aa is great but the speed is so bad

rare orbit
elfin frigate
#

If they could power walk when not is LOS I'd build them way more

rare orbit
#

amphib is a gamble that you can make damage stick before their team can properly react

rare glade
#

I don't really see it playing out like that in game

rare orbit
rare glade
#

Shiva even tends to die on the sand of the beach before reaching grass in alot of cases.

elfin frigate
tired tinsel
#

yeah speed is everyting as a radar unit

#

ability to evade defending forces. the salamander is good because it's agile enough to avoid most of the things fast enough to catch it
it's not bad against jags fast t1 etc

elfin frigate
#

With the AA cover from turtles it's easier to trans something in now though

tired tinsel
#

trans what in?

elfin frigate
#

something with high los/radar, trans it in as the turtles emerge

tired tinsel
#

aa bots are okay i guess. i think the heavy amphib tanks should have reasonable los

#

no one likes blind units that need babysitting, esp of a raider

rare glade
#

I don't wanna seem to brash but...there is only 1 amphib unit in this game that is built nearly every map, no matter what, and the fact is has 92 speed seems to have something to do with it

rare orbit
#

speed is the OP stat yes

#

nothing matters if you can't be caught

rare glade
#

Nerfing Mara's to a reasonable speed value would do more to change the game than nearly any other change.

elfin frigate
#

What's the time diff between shiva's crossing a sea vs maras?

rare glade
#

like about an hour and a half šŸ™‚

rare orbit
#

in weeks or months?

rare glade
#

Shiva's dont even get there, cause they can't outrun ACTUAL boats lol

rare orbit
#

I kind of want to try something radical with shivas, but, it would actually lower game diversity

#

which is making them faster, and giving them lasers rather than plasma. then making the demon tankier and slower

elfin frigate
#

šŸ˜¢ I actually wanna test, cause if you see maras are your enemy beach you have very little time to react, like 1 min? idk. But for Shiva's is it more like 3 minutes?

rare glade
#

I welcome any and all changes to shiva

rare orbit
#

it would give core raiders, solve a lot of FF, and remove the 'fast assault unit' problem people have with demon

elfin frigate
#

Imo, give Shiva's an above sea mode, where they move faster on sea and fire their missile.

rare glade
#

or sort out this demon/shiva role thing

elfin frigate
#

Like Platy's, but without the plasma

rare orbit
#

problem is that makes it too similar to the arm gantry balance, which is a loss to gameplay

rare orbit
#

but it might be better in other ways, and get more use from the units, to do that. eg 6 rauders are often more use than 1 demon popping out of a shoreline

rare glade
#

I agree with you there, but when you get down to it, if Shiva's are supposed to be the raider, they need AA, if Demons are the raider/amphib then just rework shiva

rare orbit
#

lasers can shoot air. shivas are slow push/siege

rare glade
#

Im totaly down with that, as long as we get demons too šŸ™‚

tired tinsel
rare glade
#

Ah, the standard League of legends 5 ms buff/nerf lol

elfin frigate
#

I'd go shiva's over demon with that rework, there is a lot of value to having more units over a strong big unit with raiders to avoid com deguns

tired tinsel
#

honestly i like to see shiva's destroying marauders from time to time xD
it's nice to see a slower amphib wave of doom

elfin frigate
#

bring back the banisher missile!

rare orbit
#

overwater shivas removes some of their utility, eg stealth, and means boats can shoot them

tired tinsel
#

they already have the cataphract
try underwater shivas first

rare orbit
#

the current BP missile is pretty good tbh, just not 'bonus banisher'

rare glade
#

Just rework shivas and give us demons it solves ALOT of the overall t3 issues

elfin frigate
#

People do seem to think Demons are OP

tired tinsel
#

demon feels kinda op
depends on map and its held in check by the super broken abductor

rare glade
#

So are Mara's

rare orbit
#

demon is 'razorback balance'. razorbacks also OP.

tired tinsel
#

thing is marauder has a phase where it's good then after well timed razors come they are less good

rare glade
#

if you are S+ "less good" is still at least A tier

tired tinsel
#

demon is fast, can punch down just about anything, pretty good at killing coms

rare glade
#

You still see Mara's even super late game titan spam time

rare orbit
#

I'll cook up a 'T3 rebalance' tweak later, separate to this though, that will be very much a pure experimental thing

rare glade
#

Demon does seem alittle TOO good at the com killing, I'll concede that

tired tinsel
#

like they are slightly better (and worse) razors-like units that are amphib
they out range razors too making them sort of win head up

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

demons are pretty good t3 duelers because their insane st

rare glade
#

There is nothing in core T3 worth building before 20min or so

tired tinsel
#

i think shiva should be slightly slow but nasty when it arrives

#

a more comittal attack that can't runby, but has a punch
like a light t3 juggernaut

elfin frigate
#

Idk, I see plenty of ways to deal with demons and maras, but you have to know they're coming

tired tinsel
#

them crushing t2 walls is pretty big

rare orbit
#

demons are made of glass, but powerful for it (and also shoot allied units with the fire)
shiva (in this pack) is a slower walking wall

tired tinsel
#

are demons really glass?

rare orbit
#

for their metal, yes. less hp/m than razorbacks

rare glade
#

Yeah they die pretty fast really

tired tinsel
#

yeah but more dps at range
insane max range dps

rare orbit
#

further the target from the demon more likely it will miss it

rare glade
#

They die to the standard sniper/starlight that most other t3 would die to in a similar setup

rare orbit
#

hence coms being squishy to them, they dodge fire terribly

#

razors on the other hand are hitscan, and insane AA

tired tinsel
#

yeah, basically demons are weapon of choice cause they are mobile high power density units that can runby and you can scout and dump them wherever they are weaker
if the backline makes sniper pulsar you can sweep the frontline

they are faster than their counters thus if you have eco advantage they are really good game enders

rare glade
#

Demons are the wepaon of choice cause you can actualy expect them to arrive to the front line before the game ends lol

willow raven
rare orbit
#

and core gets something arm balance (demon) and ZOMG OP

tired tinsel
#

i mean we see sea players going demons in like 70% of games

#

plp too lazy to thor push cause it takes more coordination and eco

rare glade
#

T3 aside, my main point I was trying to make, is that amphib balance is more an issue of speed than firepower or HP pool when it comes to actual using it effectivley as intended.

rare orbit
#

catas actually better for sea players to use I'd say

willow raven
violet geyser
tired tinsel
#

demons are the choice of unit to end the game most of the time, over other t3 from either lab or air

violet geyser
#

their lasers are horrible, literally BOTS fuck them up, 500 % overkill

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

kinda?
cataphract cannot push alone. they are basically light hover starlight. you can put them behind razors

violet geyser
#

t3 hovers have only 1 use IMO, contesting sea after u lost it

rare orbit
#

demons do have more 'punch' though, I agree

#

a navy with T3 hovers is much stronger defensively too

tired tinsel
#

cataphract basically the better cruiser

violet geyser
#

also Cataphracts specifically have a HUGE engine bug i have noticed. Their lasers have a very long duration and for some reason they cant track targets fast enough. Often even against high hp targets the beam initially hits but then the target is moving so a large amount of the DPS isnt applied.
its a huge deal if you know it.

rare orbit
#

all heavy lasers do that

#

it's why abductor seems OP vs demon, demon tanks 100% of the shot

violet geyser
#

yes but most lasers dont have a high enough duration. Its specifically a big issue with cataphracts vs ships as far as i have noticed.

rare orbit
#

you can even see it with shuriken vs scouts

#

pulsars do similar too, but they usually overkill so people rarely notice

violet geyser
#

and the man issue is that unlike pulsars, t3 hovers move themselves. Since both origin (hover) and target (target) are moving, the beams drops the target way more often than with a stationary shooter (pulsar).

rare orbit
#

problem is that's not too easy to fix, even 'star wars' laser blasts will still miss

#

can't make them beamers, nor disco balls

violet geyser
#

anyway i like cataphracts a lot on sea but they have huge problems due to their firerate and damage. They would be so much better if their would get higher RoF in exchange for lower dps (obviously not gonna happen).

#

they also weak vs low tier hovers and low tier ships due to overkill

rare orbit
#

can say that of most core units tbh, but it's correct yes

violet geyser
#

yes, you are right.

tired tinsel
#

at least they are better than the lunkhead

violet geyser
#

i wouldnt dare dispute that. though the size of the lunkhead shell is impressive.

willow raven
#

Lunkhead has the depthcharge though doesn't it? Okay for taking the sea back at least.

tired tinsel
#

they both do i think

violet geyser
#

both have anti sub

tired tinsel
#

cataphracts are pretty good on sea just a little slower and fragile gotta be careful

rare glade
#

Lunkhead seems to do better vs packs of units, though that shell has some good AoE

tired tinsel
#

oh yeah fair

violet geyser
#

yes, clumped up ships take a ton of damage from the splash for sure

rare glade
#

they handle hovers and platy's by the dozen

tired tinsel
#

range tends to be eveyrthing though. cruisers are slow so you can kite them pretty good with cataphracts

willow raven
violet geyser
#

cataphract reload is 10 second, thats excessive šŸ˜¦

dire cypress
willow raven
#

Cortex complained about starlights and pulsars, and look what happens when you give them one!

tired tinsel
#

less throughput than the starlight but its faster and has 360 firing

rare orbit
#

beamers are awkward, it also needs unit level coding as they fire faster than normal animation can react to

violet geyser
#

one of the most exciting things is when one sea player beats the other and the other tries to eco into t3 hovers. Then the sea player needs to go into battleships and it becomes t3 hover vs battleships which is super fun (kiting for battleships) but also very intense.

tired tinsel
#

i wonder if the t1 core hover ever has use

rare glade
#

Not really.....

willow raven
#

It's great.

tired tinsel
#

there was this funny game where i went seaplanes and enemy was pushing me
2 coms exploding few seconds apart (mine from destroyers, his from torp bombers)

rare orbit
#

I use it sometimes for a powerful sea shunt, but it is expensive

rare glade
#

The green laser one? Dies to Destroyers easily

violet geyser
#

u mean goon ? i think its a fine unit. Why do you think it has no use ?

willow raven
#

Where was that 1v1 cast I saw recently, on barcasttv maybe? It nearly won the game.

tired tinsel
#

9 sec reload not 10

violet geyser
#

or do you mean Halberds ?

rare orbit
#

halberds I think

tired tinsel
#

yeah halberds. halberd + rez subs underneath repairing it hmm?

rare glade
#

You can always make hovers to abuse early access to rocket artilery, of get an early scary green laser but its slow and to expensive to be good on the water at least

tired tinsel
#

halberd just loses to a riptide lol

dire cypress
violet geyser
#

those are t 1.5. you see them very rarely but they absolutely MELT t1 ships especially if you can get close enough. Without damage dropoff (laser), their damage is INSANE, they literally eat destroyers metal for metal

tired tinsel
#

yeah but no sea player worth their salt is gonna let you touch them

violet geyser
#

thats the issue. they slow as fuck

rare glade
#

If you get close enough to my T1 ships, Ill just go around you, kill your base and come back and fight the green laser later

tired tinsel
#

even 4.3k hp will fall quickly to a few ships

dire cypress
#

Not even close to a Starlight

Screenshot_2024-01-31-23-29-17-86_40deb401b9ffe8e1df2f1cc5ba480b12.jpg
violet geyser
#

but if enemy doesnt respect them (and and doesnt stays at max range), they really do melt ships

tired tinsel
dire cypress
#

But they are not even half a Starlight

tired tinsel
#

351 vs 531 math?

rare glade
#

I dunno I feel like there is alot of balancing going on, late game rework, emp, unit tweaks when the 2 biggest issues I see effecting game play are Mara speed, and cheap access to t2 arty. 8v8 specfically at least

tired tinsel
#

they also are tankier than starlights and don't chain explode. ofc starlight is a better unit but they are respectable

willow raven
tired tinsel
#

i love that map

willow raven
#

Halberd around 6:30

dire cypress
#

110 DPS from non laser.

dire cypress
rare glade
#

lol...my fix for everything is speed buff/nerf

#

want t3 hover to be better, give them a more reasonable speed

rare orbit
#

hovers are also all ... hover, which has some tax implications

rare glade
#

that is baked into the addtional energy cost already though, in theory

rare orbit
#

might be they are a bit too taxed though yes, especially considering the lost dps issues

thick inlet
#

Talking of T3, I feel like the Cors Catapult is far better than Arms Vanguard - which is mainly too slow to use for anything than defence. Would it make sense to make it faster? I am missing a good artillery in later game for Arm - Cor has Catapult and Tremor

rare orbit
#

depends on map/terrain

elfin frigate
#

Catapult requires a lot more micro not to friendly fire though

rare orbit
#

and thor usually means arm don't bloody need it, either

elfin frigate
#

And is way less tanky, it is a high APM sink

thick inlet
rare glade
#

Hmmm...I would say they are not as generally useful as a catapult, but they are more useful than catapults on more maps

#

they certinaly under perform on glitters/straights, but on something like Forge they are amazing

#

catapults are not exactly fast either

#

I think in that case the desparity is more about the area of effect of a catapult, especialy 2-3 catapults, vs Vangard

#

Vangard is better for killing specfic things, vs catapult is better at just killing all the things

#

33 vangard vs 48 catapult is signifcant though

rare orbit
#

generally all terrain units are intentionally slower

rare glade
#

yeah I took a look a karag, its 45....

rare orbit
#

I would guess it is due to the long range also, but could also be a 'just because' number

willow raven
rare glade
#

Well when it comes to speed, things being so much slower than the rest of the general game speed on a bell curve cause issues

rare orbit
#

can possibly try giving it a bit more speed and see if it breaks things terribly

rare glade
#

I need to plot all the units speeds on a bell curve

#

you might try 38-40 speed for vangard just to make it more managable to use, Id agree that I generaly dont build them due to them just being to slow to respond to even the big stuff its supposed to kill

rare orbit
#

I was thinking of testing 40 to see what it changed

rare glade
#

it shouldnt make it fast enough to really kite t2 tanks

#

karags are pretty easy to run down and they are still more than 40, even with thier wall climbing

rare orbit
#

it might be intentional to allow kargs to catch them, possibly

crimson mural
#

Why not make it so on flat its faster but much slower when climbing ?

rare glade
#

Can they kite and shoot?

#

Climbing is already a massive speed nerf as far as targetting things goes. When you are more or less going straight up, your forward velocity is essentialy 0

rare orbit
rare glade
#

Hmm.. I'd still say its probably safe, karags should be relatively safe to at least close on vangards in wierd places due to terrian and displace them

#

I dont think you're exactly going to be running them down on the flats with karags in most cases

#

I'll see about getting some curve data on unit speeds over all, that way you can at least see like avg unit speeds by "class" and the outliers

#

that should give better "speed bounding" for unit classes and show the outliers

rare orbit
#

sounds ideal if you can, thankyou. it might even be possible to do fancy things automatically via their tags

rare glade
#

Are there any spreadsheets with unit stats already? If not I'll get it from github

tired tinsel
#

catapult is generally better

rare orbit
#

ask Marek maybe, I think he batch generates them sometimes for website, but no idea where it ends up

tired tinsel
#

yeah you have to aim it but it's a target this an boom MASSIVE DAMAGE

willow raven
#

I rate units based on how cinematic they are. By that rating catapults are clearly the most OP unit.

rare orbit
willow raven
#

Hell yeah they do. Look at the flames coming out of fiends! It must be amazing. Jag's just have some little zip, boooooooring.

rare glade
#

No wonder so many people think demon is op

#

3 of those things strolling along purifying heretics is a sight

willow raven
#

Remember when the sound was bugged? They seemed like so much more of a threat when they were that loud.

elfin frigate
#

I have held of vastly superior forces with a few catapults before, once you get like 4 the damage is crazy high against most T2 cause so many of the missiles hit the big targets

thick inlet
rare orbit
#

catapult not all terrain though

elfin frigate
#

I don't think catapult needs a nerf tbh

#

Even in T3 heavy games I feel like it's rarely seen and even more rarely effective

dire ore
#

Hornets balance pack and emp rework deserve merge. Well thought out, and inclusive of player feedback.

tired tinsel
#

i haven't seen it dominant enough games nor played with it, particularly vanguard vs catapult, and catapult vs other t3, to say much about catapult

rare orbit
tired tinsel
#

it just seems great unit
kill all thier starlight/snipers, you win the t3 battle

thick inlet
# rare orbit catapult not all terrain though

than perhaps lower ho on vangard - it has lot more that catapult - I think that was an attempt to make them balanced. I think making them closer speed wise make more sence though. but yeah lets try 40 speed on vanguard only and see

tired tinsel
#

too busy building 10 more afus

#

a catapult kills 4 starlight it's payed for itself in full. doesn't take thaaat long

shut basin
violet geyser
#

Imo both vanguard and catapult are in a very good spot and don't need any adjustments.

dire cypress
thick inlet
elfin frigate
#

Pls give panws 3 more speed

#

they are so bad vs grunts

violet geyser
thick inlet
violet geyser
#

It's an artillery walker. It has plenty of upsides even considering it's an artillery. Not every unit can be q marauder.

thick inlet
#

I am not comparing him to marauder, I am comparing him to Catapult.. which has more firepower, range and speed.. a lot more. Its just better

violet geyser
#

Apples and oranges. Personally I can't pick a favourite, both are useful in the right situation. The main weakness of catapult is that it is squishy as fuck while the vanguard can actually take a beating. Also one is a spider which is either useless or useful.
Both are fine as is.

wintry wasp
#

I don't want both factions to have mirrored units, the asymmetry and different niches units inhabit is one of the most interesting things about BARs unit roster imo

thick inlet
#

Yeah lets not balance any units, its all apples and oranges.. all fine as is

elfin frigate
#

PAWNS SUCK

wintry wasp
thick inlet
#

šŸ˜„ I didnt react on you but Crimson.

wintry wasp
#

It not constructive regardless of who or which comment it was directed toward

thick inlet
#

Anyways, I gave my opinion a and I suggest you guys consider it. Looking at the stats and how much are these units used, I would improve the stats in Vangards favor. At least if it had a longer range if it is supposed to be the slower havier unit

iron bronze
#

I like both Vanguard and Catapult. Vanguard is slower but has much more hp and can climb. Range difference is minimal, and can be offset be climbing higher or using aoe. Vanguard is cheaper and has less dps. But Vanguard has hugely more aoe, 4 times more superficy. So I think it does actually much more damage for a groups of units. And it shoots faster. I think objectively Vanguards are much better. But personally, I find it good as it is. No need to nerf Vanguards, at least while there are much bigger balance problems in other places.

thick inlet
#

Alright then you have over voted me

thick inlet
crimson mural
#

I don't get why you compare those two because imo they serve different purpose . Vanguard more precise and lower damage good for destroying enemy porc and cata is good damage but not rly accurate , good for killing blobs of units. Im not high OS player but thats how i see this units

violet geyser
#

That's exactly right. As I said apples and oranges, each excel in different situations. There are definitely other units that have glaring issues but these two ain't it

thick inlet
#

OK another one, the Butler can build very few things compared to Twitcher

willow raven
thick inlet
#

I would argue it is better to have a bot who can build some of the heavier defences as he can build them uphill

#

so advantage Cortex here

#

But why not to make all 4 of them build the larger set of units.. there are maps where Bots are better, on other maps the vehicles are better. It would make sense to me if both factions could use engineers to vuild these structures/units on either kind of map

willow raven
tired tinsel
tired tinsel
#

plp say either way about the rocket bots (the only stat wise different i can see is arm rocket bots are a bit faster but plp say there's something different about core)

willow raven
tired tinsel
#

ah cheaper builds a bit faster, more hp

#

but most of it's hp can be padded with t1 walls, so the hp difference doesn't matter as much

elfin frigate
tired tinsel
#

more hp less build time more single target dmg
so you cannot out repair it. and it has pretty good repair speed esp when popped down

elfin frigate
#

Oh the single target damage, hmmm, yeah. That's a pretty niche advantage. Especially when claws have more range, potientally more alpha to stop reactions. open faster.

tired tinsel
#

yep very niche

#

they open faster and the projectile hits faster

thick inlet
#

Why does Arm has so much more expensive AFUS which has furthermore less health.. isnā€™t that a clear balance issue?

rare orbit
#

arm wind is the problem, at afus scale those things matter a lot less

thick inlet
#

What do you mean the difference in wind is small.. Arm has also more expensive solar

rare orbit
#

This has been discussed to death, the wind difference is huge econ boost on some maps. solar relatively little real impact generally

tired tinsel
#

solar more for 1v1... but other factors such as the grunt and exploiter and shruiken matter there

willow raven
#

Also metal is still the limiting resource most of the time, and that's the same between advanced fusions, isn't it?

thick inlet
#

How about a Centurion like unit for Cor T1 bot lab? They are literary missing that one unit compared to Arm

pine nacelle
thick inlet
#

Right good point

dire cypress
#

At least Core has a pendant for the tick...
Oh wait... pepeomg

But this is not a topic for the Balance Candidates. Open a new threat or something. But be prepared to read about 100 comments about ARM T1 being the worst factory, despite it being the factory that gets built more often than any other lab in the game.

thick inlet
#

I though this thread is about balancing the factions šŸ™‚ So it might be woth adding some of these units into the pack. There is also a discussion in another thread on adding the Siegebreaker unit for Cor T2 veh as sort of a counterbalance to Startlight which I think is a really good idea

dire ore
#

First he tells people to come here while they were in threads relevant to their discussion, then he tells us to leave...when discussing things relevant to the thread. The man's attempting to control the narrative pepesweat

dire cypress
# thick inlet I though this thread is about balancing the factions šŸ™‚ So it might be woth addi...

I am not in the position to tell you anything šŸ˜‰. It was a humble suggestion.

This threat is manly about balancing existing units. This balancing is limited by the possibilities that tweaks give us. In other threats there are discussions about the general balance between the factions and so on.

I am 100% pro new ideas. The thing is: New ideas for new units normally end in lengthy discussions. New units can't be achieved by unit tweaks and new units will end up in the release candidates pack, if someone decides to give a green light, a model was created, the model got rigged and animated, tested, play tested and so on.

So you may decide to discuss it here. Just be aware that the unit you create will have many other stations before it might end up here for a rebalance.

thick inlet
#

OK so talking of existing units, I want to talk about Liche and Banchee - Liche could use more health, given it's insane price and Banchee, could use health and dps improvement what do you guys think? After the improvement I have a feeling that the Dragon has more value than Liche

tired tinsel
#

liche is pretty good defensively, and is bonkers as a first strike against ships

#

it's pretty fast

elfin frigate
#

IMO, not that I don't agree, but new units are beyond the scope of the balance pack atm

thick inlet
#

I assume the sea is also improved in this pack for Arm? I think it is generally accepted that Cor sea is better

elfin frigate
#

Uhhh, Only battlehsields have a range change. There was a recent base game update to frigate costs. Arm got cheaper and cor got more expensive. Arm subs got faster and cor subs got slower.

violet geyser
#

if anything the fucking Liche should be "fixed" so it DROPS a bomb like a bomber would (and does at tier 1) instead of suiciding itself into the enemy.

rare orbit
#

tbh it already is OP so that isn't hard

#

actually, not entirely true, I could make it a literal bomb - but it would then miss shots sometimes

violet geyser
#

i mean is it OP, i dont know. Its deffo less broken than Stilettos were and Abductors are. It can be pretty darn good but its also very expensive for what it can do. I think its in a fine spot in my opinion. Sometimes useless sometimes bonekrs.

rare orbit
#

it's a glass nuke

#

the issue is it has insane alpha and usually isn't stoppable by players it attacks, by time air reacts your units/fleet is irradiated scrap. compare to dragon which has a runup time and takes a long time to do the damage

violet geyser
#

yeah, i know how it works. It suddenyl shows up out of nowhere and destroys an army šŸ˜„

rare orbit
#

abductors are something I'm looking at with EMP rework

violet geyser
#

again scout issue šŸ™‚ I know scouting it is tough obviously. But its also a very expensive investment šŸ™‚

rare orbit
#

no, you can't scout into enemy air wall, and it's more than fast enough to be a threat from fog

elfin frigate
#

They just need like half the damage or something

violet geyser
#

thats what im saying.

rare orbit
#

it is expensive but it will almost always return that investment

#

dragons are a gamble, comparatively

violet geyser
#

its kinda funny that Arm has ALL the super op defensive air tools (stil, abduct, lich) and core has not even ONE

rare orbit
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business as usual

violet geyser
#

its weird. 3-0 ratio is even outstanding for BAR

rare orbit
#

skuttle may be the only exception

#

still, one injustice at a time

thick inlet
#

Well Wasps and Dragons are good for defense..

elfin frigate
rare orbit
#

shuri are really nice early, they mostly fade out approaching lategame though

#

the arm raiding stuff ships with free AA and/or EMP immunity

dire cypress
dire cypress
violet geyser
violet geyser
dire cypress
#

Well the reason I am asking is: the bug that the Core com has less D-gun range is still in the game...
That just feels like wtf! Why will you balance the game, but not fix the bug?

violet geyser
#

because the 5 % cost change for frigs is important while broken dgun range is not important

wanton yarrow
#

What are these balance packs aiming for?
Are they going to eventually be made to be the standard in the main game?
Or is it going to be the straits lobby perma tweakdef mode or something?
I'm not understanding what's the final destination.

violet geyser
#

It's a bit like the release candidate units that arent officially adopted but over time are voted active in a lot of lobbies.

rare orbit
placid ridge
elfin frigate
elfin frigate
dire cypress
violet geyser
dire cypress
thick inlet
#

How about Fiend vs Sprinter - Fiend clearly a lot better unit, for same metal and a lot less energy..

thick inlet
#

Ambassador is also stat wise slightly better worse than negotiator for more metal. Most defensive buildings seem better for Cor than Arm.. but when there is one better unit of Arm, it has to be immediately nerfed

dire cypress
tired tinsel
#

Cortex better at beefy defense and artillery

#

Except pulsar for reasons

tired tinsel
#

Against sprinters try t1 walls

dire cypress
# thick inlet Ambassador is also stat wise slightly better worse than negotiator for more meta...

Oh my friend, I like your attitude and your eagerness to learn.
The thing about the balance between CORE and ARM is: most of the time the more relevant values are better for ARM.
And they have some unique and free of charge abilities.

A raiding unit with built in AA is ARM exclusive without the release candidates.
The sneaky Pete is very unique.
And many other units are just outright better. Defense is nice, but you rarely spend as much metal in defense than in units.

dire cypress
tired tinsel
#

There's a lot of "is more expensive randomly" in the game

dire cypress
#

Which is ok. As long as it is a bit for the one or the other side.
The lobbies show that arm has some lobsided advantages.

tired tinsel
#

i wouldn't drink the imba coolaid that hard
dragon claw, no starlight counter part, abductor emp + lift broken
parazyler, pulsar a little bit op
marauders+razors have demons as counterpart now
karg/shiva are acceptable t3 upgrades but don't have play-making ability like faster armada razor or demon

#

on the subject of t3 balance 2.3 kargs barely can defeat a demon

elfin frigate
#

Seriously though, some kind of utility should be added to them to seperate them from other units, similar to how you can self-d fields to deal extra damage. Maybe they could repair/reclaim/ be stealthy idk. Something that sperate them from being a bigger tick

elfin frigate
#

I think a lot of us here are not dedicated 1v1 players, I haven't watched this yet but based on talking to BarCast before he generally gets good people to talk to and knows his stuff. So it is always important to consider the game is not always large team games and balance needs to be catered for 1v1-8v8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2EQRif75Vc&ab_channel=BARCastTV

YouTube
BARCastTV
introducing Blodir - A conversation about balance and 1v1s - Beyon...

Welcome back commanders. Please give a warm welcome to Blodir a FAF Legend and recently minted 50+ OS 1v1 player.

ā–¶ Play video
tired tinsel
willow raven
tired tinsel
#

they are for very specific purpose and you only make a few of them later in the game
so the impact is like w/e

willow raven
# dire cypress Oh my friend, I like your attitude and your eagerness to learn. The thing about...

I was thinking about unit AA, and had two ideas. So arm has these units with long range but weak missiles, pretty useful. What are some 'worse' options that could be used to balance units if needed.

  1. a tiny range, and fairly weak, flack for cortex. Would do more damage than arm missiles if it actually hit a unit, but the range could be so short it wouldn't hit a bomber until after the bomber dropped the bombs and passed them.

  2. AA mini guns for legion, is it possible to intercept rockets with other projectiles? Imagine shooting down scorpion and wasp rockets heading towards you.

#

Though if salamanders come out and the emp rework then I dont think core needs anything like that, just something to have in the back pockets.

thick inlet
rare orbit
dire cypress
#

Nope.
Pete is better. Way better. It is the magic button of total commander sneakiness.
You can build a Pete, cloak it, cloak a commander, walk in small steps towards enemy lines and D-gun. Or just let the com lurking in front of your defensive line. And as soon as the mid tanks/(j)anus arrive you can D-gun em.

elfin frigate
#

Sneaky Pete's range is freaken insane, 500 vs 360, it covers nealy as much area as 2 Castro's and is cheaper to run if it's not cloaked.

thick inlet
#

Yeah but its not like it cloaks all units around it too.. so this use with commander is very niche use

dire cypress
#

I love this:
ARM loves to play with (j)anus šŸ˜‰šŸ˜‚

elfin frigate
#

It's not niche sry, it's a very common play to cloak your com under a cloaked sneaky pete to dgun a whole group of tanks or T2 units.

thick inlet
elfin frigate
#

I'm aware of that, but if you build 2 Castros to cover a little bit more area you're losing more E per second than having 1 sneaky pete and you're not invisible.

#

And more E per m to build by 2k.

dire cypress
elfin frigate
#

'Different' area then, cause you can spread them out more.

#

It's more advantageous though to have one with a longer diameter range because the unit providing the jamming is further away from enemies and in this case also cloaked.

#

Yep, 40 e to jam sneaky, 25 to jam castro, and 25 to cloak

rare orbit
#

whole navy just evaporates instantly and unscoutably

elfin frigate
#

Killing Boat/Tankball/Rushed T2 Unit/Even T3 all favour a sneaky pete.

#

Honestly, the cloaking is so powerful it should be on the T2 version

rare orbit
#

vs land units you can in theory at least scoutspam to try and find it

#

as boats it's impossible, you have to try and scout via force firing suspect land before you can close in on it

elfin frigate
#

LOL, the T2 Core one costs more M and E and does less jamming range, can't make this stuff up

rare orbit
#

the other argument behind having petes as T2 is that junos are more common then, giving counterplay options

#

but that would put the T1 jammer in a weird design place

#

altering pricing at least has been on my notes for a while, unsure on the idea of moving the pete to T2 yet. also gremlin cloak and tick fire E cost

elfin frigate
#

Gremlin cloak should be double or triple what it is, it's costs nothing atm. 20 E to cloak 1.

dire cypress
dire cypress
#

But all this is known.

Is there a rough plan (in numbers) how to get this pack into the mod options? I mean we see it used quite often even though it is a tweak, which speaks for itself.

tired tinsel
rare orbit
#

'when done', or at least more final, there's still experimental stuff and bits I want to try first. it might also need T2 sea and RC units merged beforehand, stacking conditionals is getting suboptimal

tired tinsel
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Ships bombarding your shore? Sneaky Pete + d gun

#

Tzar rush, even t3 if they don't support the push properly

dire cypress
tired tinsel
#

What if spybots lost stealth while their self d timer is ticking

cold needle
#

their self-d timer is like 1 second, wouldn't change much

tired tinsel
#

Set self d timer to 1.5-3 sec

#

That way you have to clear radar or bring a jammer

cold needle
#

your goal is to make them non-viable against frontline yeah?

tired tinsel
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Goal is to make them not able to always walk up with impunity

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And have slight time for reaction

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The reward is great so the success should not be so easy