paleontology

[light osprey]

At most I think we can confidently say the summer was not super warm based on frequent false rings and low tree canopy height, so either the seasonal temperature variation was lower than it is now at that latitude, or the cold month mean would’ve been pretty damn cold

[loud wing]

It's hard to find a good comparison, they lived in Arctic zone that seemed to have relatively warm summers and cold winters (due to polar nights, that's why it's hard to find a modern comparison). At least that's how many articles describe it

[pallid moss]

palontology fact: i believe the deynonichus is cooler than the velociraptors from jurassic park (they're not even accurate to real velociraptors)

[steady rock]

Like new England?

[light osprey]

Maybe. Maybe not. The temperature data is not that well constrained. Although apparently amiot’s 2004 paper on latitudinal gradients did isotopic enamel sampling of the teeth recovered from the Prince creek, and the gradient they produced predicts pretty low temperatures at 80 degrees north

[steady rock]

Speaking abt twmpatures, wasn't the negment a seasonal region that was able to get snow?

[light osprey]

Probably. Its closest competitive in the monsoonal central and northeastern China does get occasional snow even with its very dry winters

[steady rock]

The thought of it is very beautiful In my mind

[astral spindle]

Is Carchar invalid now 😭, I'm LITTERALLY gonna crash out if it is?

Or did it get nerfed to 6.9 ton?

[stable sun]

No, it's valid. The Stromer specimen became a different genus

fragmentary taxon, of course its estimates are gonna change. We can't tell if it's 6.9 or 8.2 t.

[astral spindle]

Oh, I've heard that the range is now 7.2-8.2T

[stable sun]

the range is higher, all we have from Carcharodontosaurus is an incomplete skull

[astral spindle]

When will the 13% bigger Carchar drop? It's kinda starting to need the buff

[fossil ingot]

Its 7.2t not 6.9t tmk

[outer tusk]

At 11.5 meters it would likely be smaller than 7.2 tonnes

[fossil ingot]

I poster Tamer and Not Carcha Rip

[frosty cedar]

That's very neat. I'd like to see something like that for once, never actually been in a paleonthology/natural history museum. Thankfully, there is a place in my city. They have triceratops skull, would like to see one in real life.

[fossil ingot]

Hahaha now

[frosty cedar]

One sizable fossil I've seen so far is just a replica of megalodon's jaws near the entrance to the aquarium.

[fossil ingot]

Tamer is 10.2m and 4.4 tons

[frosty cedar]

Nanotyrannus valid (real).

What is this museum btw, just curious?

[astral spindle]

What happend? Ita 7.2-8.2 tonnes right?

[fossil ingot]

Yes
7.2 tons based on Tameryraptor
8.2-8.4t Based on TTT/Tyrannotitan
Both are good to use

[astral spindle]

Ah ok, thank u. And I'm pretty sure Mr.Random said that 8.4 is too high

[hardy sentinel]

Would an Argentinosaurus die on the spot from the second it's feet made contact if this were to have happened in real life or would it's life end the second it's skull crashes into the ground? Gif sending in a second because cooldown

[tough parcel]

I assume it's the minor inconvenience gif? Cause assumedly it'd die when the internal organs exploded

[hardy sentinel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/621392242283773962/1312901733055463504/Minor.gif

[winter marsh]

it didnt die, its just sleeping

[hardy sentinel]

I imagine that first it's legs would break, internal organs would probably explode from the falling speed, and then it's skull would crash on the ground, killing it

[warped peak]

We can test with a giraffe

[tough parcel]

I do suppose

[astral spindle]

Oh and is the 12.0 meters and 3.8 meter tall reconstruction then 7.2 tonnes?

[fossil ingot]

Yes

[runic rover]

I think it would die fastly, but not instantly, but again, it's a much different scale than a walrus

[umbral kite]

wat skin should i use for t.bataar wat about the skin should i use Cinereous Vulture,Lammergeier,Golden Eagle,Whooper Swan,Steppe Eagle,Marley turkey

[sudden wind]

Did the paper provide measurements and figures with scale bar?

[fluid inlet]

Yellow has more pop to it @stiff osprey @zealous ravine

[pliant cedar]

a close to 5 ton animal would surely need like, minimal coverings if it isnt living in a incredibly cold environment

oooo this looks really good, next one i wanna get i already got 'saurophaganax;

[quasi token]

200 mm scale bar, unfortunately no measured length for this specific skull (certain bones at least are if you want to check if the scale bar is any good though)

[river plinth]

What's the difference between iguanodon and iguanacolossus?

[pliant cedar]

idrk but hope this helps a bit

[outer tusk]

these recon don't showcase the difference at all because one is older than the other

[tough parcel]

Iguanacolossus differs from other iguanodontians in having a contact surface for supraoccipital on caudomedial process of squamosal curved in caudal view, cranial pubic process with concave dorsal margin but little expansion of its cranial end, postorbital process of the squamosal mediolaterally compressed and blade-like, pubis tapers to a blunt point, cranial extremity of preacetabular process of ilium modified into horizontal boot, axial neural spine blade-like and semi-circular in profile, and the dorsal margin of ilium straight.

[outer tusk]

NERD!!!!

[frosty cedar]

This is quite an amount of smart words.

[tough parcel]

I mean you aren't gonna get "Iguanocolossus differs from the Iguanodon by being slightly more purple"

[outer tusk]

Iguanocolossus differs from the iguanodon because it's an older animal from a older formation and it's name is differ and it's smaller than iguanodon and it has less skeletal material to it's name

[river plinth]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-star-confused-huh-wtf-gif-20911403

[river plinth]

Oooh ok

[light osprey]

I think you’re mistake, it’s different from other iguanodon in that it colossal. Hence the name?

[wind prairie]

the raptors from JP literally are deinonychus

[tough parcel]

I was a fool...perhaps this is why the Nanotyrannus is real?

[frosty cedar]

It is real. It will always be real in our hearts.

[river plinth]

Basically comparing a pitbull to a great Dane?

[outer tusk]

idk dogs so I will not comment

[fluid inlet]

Houston museum of natural science

Ramp

[frosty cedar]

Nice.

[frosty cedar]

Sometimes it's so weird seeing something from hundreds of millions of years ago so perfectly preserved, it's almost unnatural.

[pliant cedar]

yeah.
it was staged ofc.

[frosty cedar]

You mean it's a replica? Yeah, very likely ||(probably is, a museum wouldn't display actual fossils like that lol)||, but we do find fossils of similar condition.

[pliant cedar]

yk what i mean'

[fluid inlet]

Paid actors.

[frigid delta]

2 question at once abt this Carcha

[hallow spear]

what bone

[tough parcel]

The ischium or the other guy

[high sequoia]

What’s y’all’s favorite dinosaur

[frigid delta]

chicken

[high sequoia]

That’s a good one?

Come to think of it which birds came from the Dino’s and which didn’t and just came from other species?

[tough parcel]

All birds come from dinosaurs

[fossil ingot]

Carcha is like
1cm or same height as Cartilage Sue

[frosty cedar]

I mean, they don't come from dinosaurs, they are dinosaurs, theropods.

[high sequoia]

Oh well yeah but you know what I meant which evolved from dinosaurs because weren’t there birds that weren’t dinosaurs back in the Mesozoic

[frosty cedar]

weren’t there birds that weren’t dinosaurs back in the Mesozoic
I'm kinda confused by this phrasing.

[high sequoia]

Oh then I’m wrong thanks for letting me know my bad😭. you think I’m not I barely understand my own word choice half the time

[frosty cedar]

Lmao.
Ok, so here's a simple scheme of dinosaur groups. It's in russian, but I think it gets the point across.

Birds are basically just extremely advanced and diverse microraptors.

[tough parcel]

Literally me man, dw

But keep in mind evolution isn't completely linear so you can see things side-by-side (like us and chimpanzees, for example)

[frosty cedar]

Yeah, that's what people sometimes miss. Evolution can very much be parallel.
Like people who literally think tyrannosaurus evolved into chicken.

[fluid inlet]

The Indian titan

[high sequoia]

I always think of it linear cause it’s simple to imagine even though I know it’s way more than a line

[tough parcel]

Yea that's fair

Honestly I don't think about evolution cause it won't affect me there's no proving (X) animal evolved into (Y) animal unless we witness it evolving or have DNA evidence

[frosty cedar]

That's why visualization is key. It helps us not stress our monkey brains too much.

[fossil ingot]

At the head they are like the same
Carcha is 4m at Hips
Cartilage Sue is 3.9m

[frosty cedar]

Wait, isn't argentino still the biggest sauropod? Or I'm missing something?

[fluid inlet]

Indian titan mugs @stiff osprey

[frosty cedar]

Because it's every other week a new "challenger" arrives, and it turns out argentino still retains the status.

[fluid inlet]

New week? Indian titan been known about for a long time skippy.

[frosty cedar]

No, I meant it's just "oh this sauropod was actually the biggest all this time" and then just "nevermind, wrong".

[stiff osprey]

The Kallamedu giant and Maraapunisaurus are the only ones that have a chance at rivaling Argent, and both are known from the most garbage material that doesn't even exist anymore (the former was lost to poor documentation and the latter was intentionally left to crumble away)

[fluid inlet]

I’m not really familiar with maraapunisaurus

[stiff osprey]

Formerly known as amphicoelias fragillimus

[frosty cedar]

are known from the most garbage material that doesn't even exist anymore (the former was lost to poor documentation and the latter was intentionally left to crumble away)
I love paleontology.

[sudden wind]

All birds are dinosaurs, you cannot be classified outside of a taxonomic group you belong. That'd be saying the same as "humans evolved from animals", which would suggest we wouldn't be animals. There used to be a way of classification (evolutionist) as such but it's now considered incorrect and no one is using that (we use now phylogenetic classification based on the share of characters and hypothetic common ancestors).

But to answer the question better, birds are avant dinosaurs belonging to Avialae/Aves depending of the definition (as bird is a common name and ot a taxonomic unit). Their last common ancestor with non Avian dinosaurs (crown dinosauria) was somewhere within 170 million years ago and their closest relatives would be Troodontids. Earliest bird of bird like animals would be Archaeopteryx (but that doesn't mean it's an ancestor).

[frosty cedar]

The legend still lives.

[high sequoia]

Ok yeah that makes more sense

[fluid inlet]

They just published a new dinosaur on only photo evidence so I’m back in my element:

[steady rock]

we're gonna act like you dont instantly die or die 1 hour after
in your opinion, what would you say would be more devastating to a carnivore, getting hit with a ankylosaur tail club or getting hit with a stegosaurs thagomizers?

[quasi token]

thagomizers

[fallen stump]

New carchar just dropped

[warm saddle]

I'd say anky tail club

[fallen stump]

Tameryraptor. Estimates I’ve seen put it around 4.3 to 4.4 tons

[quasi token]

the club would hurt a lot and break some bones, but you'd probably at least survive the inital blow and have an (albeit very small) chance of recovering long-term
the thagomizer would just instantly kill you or leave you with such a devastating wound your practically guranteed to die of infection or blood less later

[fallen stump]

Giant Ceratosaurus 😁

[harsh cypress]

i love that thagomizer started as a made up word for a silly caveman comic and now its like. in papers.

[stable sun]

well they're not even closely related plus the horn in Tameryraptor is much smaller

[fallen stump]

I know I just said it as a joke lol 😂

[steady rock]

isnt a allosaurus shown to survive a tail swing tho?

[pseudo harbor]

What’s a Dino that would be a juvi killer irl

[quasi token]

no, the one with the massive injury almost certainly died from it lol

[fallen stump]

Marshosaurus

[harsh cypress]

just about any predator would rather go after something young/old than something in it's prime tbh

[steady rock]

the one that got hit in the kiwis? i thought the fossil had evidence of healing?

[topaz shell]

Wait what’s this new carchar

[harsh cypress]

big al?

[quasi token]

last i heard anyway it didn't show signs of healing, though it may have died of infection after, il have to double check

no not big al, this one's in MUCH worse condition

[harsh cypress]

ooooooo
Finding fossilized bone pathology is so cool

[velvet burrow]

FYM INTENTIONALLY

[quasi token]

https://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2014AM/webprogram/Paper247355.html <- yeah no signs of healing, didn't die right away seemingly but of infection a while after

[harsh cypress]

Bone Wars were wild

they hadn't started using resins to preserve fossils yet

the mudstone it came from tended to crumble

so the guy just drew it once and then was like 'well its gonna fall apart anyway so whatever'

[stable sun]

some material described in Matley 1929 might suggest another Argentinosaurus sized specimen from Kallamedu but it all needs to be redescribed

[harsh cypress]

I used to be a volunteer fossil preparator, you'd be surprised how much stuff just goes missing or gets lost track of, especially the really old stuff

never gonna forget the first time they took me down to the basement full of fossil jackets. was like an infinite backrooms of 'we have maybe a general idea of what might be in most of these but we dont know for sure'

some of it just sat there waiting to be opened for decades

[velvet burrow]

That's...

Understandable to an extent if they did Stromer levels of diagrams

[stiff osprey]

do you have the paper?

[stable sun]

yes but i need to find it meanwhile here's this thing that is either a femur or a humerus and thus scales to either like 40 or 70 t

[stiff osprey]

I can't say that they wanted the bones to be destroyed, but you'd think the bones of the supposed largest dinosaur ever would get them funding to dig them up, or that failing that they'd draw some really detailed diagrams. Instead it got a short description with drawings that look like they were made by a 5 year old, and then the bones were left on the ground to be destroyed by the next monsoon

[stable sun]

scapula piece

[fluid inlet]

Indian titan victim

[stiff osprey]

bro disintegrated

[stable sun]

That is literally a different specimen of the Indian titan which wasn't lost in a flood

[fluid inlet]

Still gets cooked , tell him @stiff osprey

[stiff osprey]

They're all the same, it disintegrated anyway

[fluid inlet]

This is still my boy

[stable sun]

dust

[fluid inlet]

So is Tameryraptor and everyone is having a parade for it 😒

[stable sun]

The Tametyrap specimen was well described Bruhathkayosaurus was not

[opaque kayak]

Me when the completion is not even comparable

[polar quiver]

Question: I gotta know, was mah Boi the Fasolasuchus's size estimate of 8 to 10 meters long and 2 ton weight lowered?

Srry if I interrupted anything, but the most recent thing I could find about it was a news article from Aug 1st last year

[warped peak]

Tameryraptor was a formerly under Carcharodontosaurus, one of the most well known theropods of all time, and the original specimen of it, while now contributed to one of the only different looking Carcharodonts. That's a pretty big difference to a poorly described fossil and almost no reliable information regarding it's existence

[opaque kayak]

I mean, I have had people compare Spinosaurus to Amphicoelias lol

[sterile trail]

💀 hell naw

[winter marsh]

I have one thing to say and you wont like it: Bahariasaurus solos

[warped peak]

Bahariasaurus justice

[loud wing]

what's the most complete big azhdarchid specimen?

are we sure that they are not a collective hallucination
are they doomed to be fossilized as a vertebra and a humerus

[tough parcel]

It's the nature of a large flying animal to suck at preserving

Too big to fossilize rapidly (like the smaller pterosaurs) and too delicate to survive prolonged exposure to the outside world (like dinosaurs)

[velvet burrow]

They're the size of giraffes but with the weight of a bear and hollow chopsticks for bones, fossilization bias does not favor them

[opaque kayak]

https://tenor.com/view/kill-gif-22840133

[winter marsh]

dont forget that they have a sword for a mouth

[tough parcel]

I don't think having a sword for a mouth affects fossilization

[loud wing]

this guy seems to have a pteroid fossilized? so cheeky

[balmy oyster]

Yeah but that got bombed, Kallamedu giant just disintegrated

[velvet burrow]

More like a pair of tweezers but that doesn't help fossilzation because we can't even get teeth from them

[loud wing]

teeth of azhdarchids?

googling pteros led me to the dark place

[winter marsh]

wicked

[loud wing]

I love collecting deranged paleo things

[fluid inlet]

Rapetosaurus had one of the best introductions in prehistoric planet

[winter marsh]

I swear I wanna do stuff to myself what is this

[velvet burrow]

Also having sauropods displaying varied and interesting behaviors such as fooling around in the mud instead of being overhyped background props or fodder is one of my PhP highlights

[fluid inlet]

The Dreadnoughtus scene with the two huge bulls fighting it out was cinematic

[wind prairie]

I swear david peters is like, the main villain of paleontology

[drifting condor]

Is it true that stegosaurus would typically win it's brawls with allosaurus?

Or would it lose

[stiff osprey]

Allosaurus would win most fights due to the fact that predators do not engage prey they don't think they can kill. If the Stegosaurus was too big the allosaur would just not attack it

[thorn grove]

Somewhat ironically finding evidence of a predator taking wounds from a given herbivore is actually evidence that the predator would normally win since, like random said, predators don't attack things if they expect to die from it

[fluid inlet]

Torvosaurus victims

[steady rock]

is stegosaurus really a usual torvo victim?

[sharp dragon]

I can picture an allosaurus managing to bit around a stegosaurus neck/head, keeping to the front of the animal while it tries to tear it apart with its jaws.
A painful death for the stegosaurus if it doesn't manage to shake the allosaur off it.

[velvet burrow]

Yes, but more of a comic relief villain that comes up with the dumbest plans imaginable that always fail, and instead of being the main threat is a plot device secondary to the central conflicts

[opaque kayak]

nuclear bomb victim

[wind prairie]

I can't think of anyone who is more of a central conflict than him. Jack Horner is like a reformed villain (with him not pushing the scavenger junk anymore) and Robert DePalma's schemes are too low stakes
perhaps the true villain... was big paleo??

[indigo cradle]

Lol big paleo

[opaque kayak]

Big dirt

[warped peak]

This is why Stego has neck armor

[sharp dragon]

Exactly right, it's still certainly a gigantic weakspot, but the extra armour may give time for the stego to shake the allosaurus off through whatever means it could.

[zealous ravine]

@stiff osprey Do we have any weight estimates for Tamery?

[stiff osprey]

I'd guess 4-4.5 tonnes

[zealous ravine]

Ty

[sharp dragon]

I can't believe we found the JP3 ceratosaurus
Well, refound.

[astral spindle]

For Carcharodontosaurus which would you say is more reliable? The one you made using Tameryraptor or the 8.2 ton one?

[stiff osprey]

Neither is reliable, so you can choose either one

(nor is any saharicus skeletal out there)

[sharp dragon]

Who Pinged me

[astral spindle]

Getting mixed feelings about that.

Thanks

[opaque kayak]

It pains me to see carch become like this. Now it is just more north african uncertain taxa.

[fluid inlet]

Well unmix your feelings then

[opaque kayak]

Perucetus victim

[fluid inlet]

I saw the craziest artwork of perucetus while looking for artwork I haven’t seen of it before and let’s just say I will not post it but I was dumbfounded

[astral spindle]

Icthytitan victim

[opaque kayak]

In fact, is there a single megatheropod which can be somewhat said as being reliable in Cenomanian north africa at this point?

[fluid inlet]

What does 7shot mean 🤣 I know who it is but like why

[opaque kayak]

In fact, the best might unironically be spinosaurus now 💀

[fluid inlet]

Explain Perucetus victim

[frosty cedar]

Bro is starting a cult.

[fluid inlet]

https://x.com/anthon5001/status/1727740981884154002?s=46

Anthony Hutchings (@anthon5001) on X

Perucetus colossus bull taking a breath.

X · Nov 23, 2023, 5:28 PM

[opaque kayak]

Perucetus victim

I mean, but being serious. Lie, all Cenomanian north african megatheropods are now known with Crappy remains/Lost/Uncertain taxanomy. That's insane

[frosty cedar]

I mean, it's true for a lot of big theropods. Except Rex, because nature is apparently a very big fan and preserves rexes in thousands.

[fluid inlet]

The perucetus bull patrols its sea , dominating , intimidating any foe who would dare enter his territory, he is now and forever a echo into the past that blue whale might be king today but he was king of yesterday. Thank you.

[opaque kayak]

I kinda agree, and in fact, for most megatheropods that is true, but still can't believe all north african megatheropods cenomanian is either one/two bones, unclear classification or stright up lost

[fluid inlet]

The seas haven’t forgotten

[opaque kayak]

nuclear bomb victim talking

[fluid inlet]

Ratioed by Perucetus

[thorn grove]

can he beat goku tho?

[frosty cedar]

He is not going to be so intimidating and dominating after I make an elaborately designed bait that initiates ammonia poisoning.

[stable sun]

Carcharodontosaurus is more complete than largest Spinosaurus specimens

[fluid inlet]

More complete than acro?

[opaque kayak]

How complete is it without the "holotype" now being reclassified?

To my knowledge, it's just a skull and a bunch of fragmentary reffered specimens

Also, just gonna say, now since they named (reclassfied for those guys) Amphicoelias and tamery off of lost fauna let's rename Hector's ichthyosaur

[stable sun]

Most of the skull. Large Spinosaurine specimens are literally a about and an incomplete dentary

[opaque kayak]

I mean it's not bad, but also frankly not better then the "neotype" (if that thing even is a spinosaurus)

[stable sun]

"neotype" is better but it's also 3 t

[opaque kayak]

Yes, I know. I would still throw it in the megatheropod spot for having larger specimens tho

[stable sun]

Status as Spinosaurus very doubtful

[opaque kayak]

Fair point, but I was more talking about the list of megatheropods incomplete in north africa, rather then the level of completion for the largest specimens

[fluid inlet]

Perucetus owns u

[snow python]

How heavy was Lisowicia?

[dim rune]

Somewhere between 1 and like 2 pounds I think or maybe higher like 2.5 idk it was heavy

[stable sun]

??????

[dim rune]

I forgor

[outer tusk]

5 tonnes

[frigid delta]

specifically 5-7 tons @snow python

[dim rune]

Damn that is a lot of pounds, that’s like more than 3 I think

[frigid delta]

use tons instead of pounds next time but you do you

[chrome condor]

so funny 🙄

[dim rune]

Thanks pal

[mossy anchor]

do we have any fossil evidence of tyrannosaurus having a shattered leg bone or something from ankylosaurus?

[outer tusk]

No because we don't have a lot of fossils from Ankylosaurus

[meager musk]

Ankylosaurus isn't the only one of its family with the big club right?

[indigo cradle]

Nope

[sterile trail]

You have Euoplocehalus and Anodontosaurus as a couple of examples

[indigo cradle]

Euop was my fav growing up
I love that painting of one tackling a tank

[halcyon cobalt]

evidence that ankylosaurs’s tail was for display purposes only

[indigo cradle]

What about that recent paper that said it was for intraspecific combat

[halcyon cobalt]

that was Zuul wasn’t it? ( my original comment was joking if that wasn’t clear )

[patent mist]

There's a gorgosaurus tibia/ fibula that got multiple fractures from one and healed iirc

[mossy anchor]

oh ok, interesting! is there a name to it so i can find an article on it?

[patent mist]

I do not know

[velvet burrow]

If there was how would someone be able to infer that the broken bone was caused by an ankylosaur?

[steady rock]

This is how I came to love eupo

[compact leaf]

you would need an impact point that couldn’t just be caused by the animal falling over, so like a fracture on the lower leg with a clear point of impact

it’s a lot easier with stegosaurs because you can tell pretty clearly when something has been thagomized

[steady rock]

Tarbosaurus lived with the most ankylosaurids I believe if anyone cares

Was there any nodasaurids in negment or just a bunch of ankylosaurs?

[compact leaf]

I think dinosaur park has more actually, since euplocephalus got split

[steady rock]

How many does dinosaur park have compared to negment?

[compact leaf]

dinosaur park has 4 genus not counting nodosaurs, nemegt proper has 2 named ones

[steady rock]

I swear a formation in Mongolia had a ungodly amount of ankylosaurs

[broken venture]

Baruungoyot or Nemegt formation, im not 100% sure.

[steady rock]

How many does baruu have?

[novel atlas]

https://x.com/saradrawspaleo/status/1879578685227114642?t=D_ExaTMP60_W9C3kUY9M1w&s=19

sara.draws.paleoart - COMMS CLOSED (@saradrawspaleo) on X

Ceratosaurus meets Tameryraptor

X · Jan 15, 2025, 5:17 PM

[tough parcel]

The world is ending

[tough parcel]

@neat drum HAve you?

[onyx thorn]

Dude. I was trying to get some help.
Are links to articles not allowed?

[umbral kite]

they are

[onyx thorn]

So why did my question get deleted? 😭
Was it too vague?

[tough parcel]

Gonna be honest, I have no clue, repost it and if the mods delete it, they're on crack

[scenic flame]

https://youtu.be/jrOIczcR6Ww?t=5

[tough parcel]

So real

[wraith kindle]

If it got instadeleted, it was the automod. Could complain via modmail I guess.

[scenic flame]

oh wait I misread what you said as "wrong ending"

[onyx thorn]

Has anyone here read through this article before?
Specifically the section on phylogenetic nomenclature?
Here's the reference so that automod doesn't snipe it.
PADIAN K, CHIAPPE LM. The origin and early evolution of birds. Biological Reviews. 1998;73(1):1-42. doi:10.1017/S0006323197005100

[velvet burrow]

Aerosteon holotype

[ancient knoll]

Great art but holy crap can we please stop giving it a cerato crest

[onyx thorn]

Nevermind, I've managed to sorta figure out my problem.

[round hedge]

What have i missed ?

[umbral kite]

the maip is a megaraptor

[stable sun]

Yeah that has been known since it was described aka since 2022

[umbral kite]

in my honest opinion i think torvosauruses have rectangle head that weak

also could trex jaw lock like tarbosaurus

[stable sun]

???

[round hedge]

Wow, really, i didn't know that !

It's not like its revonstruction says anything about it

(sorry for the sarcasm, nu i just had to, no hard feelings dude)

[umbral kite]

im dinoist toward torvos

[pliant cedar]

how cold could hell creek get

[umbral kite]

now or prehistoric times

[rich vessel]

Oh hi Mano

[pliant cedar]

now

[fluid inlet]

Now or Prehistoric

[stable sun]

largest sauropods

[snow python]

Do we have any Kelmayisaurus skeletal?

[opaque kayak]

Hehehe

[pliant cedar]

prehistoric

[pliant cedar]

smth tells me that this is a theropod more closely related to carcharodontosaurus than to allosaurus
cant quite put my finger on it

[river plinth]

All that from a jaw?!
We're the crest even come from

[umbral kite]

i thought argent was largest

[stable sun]

The two larger ones are utter garbage that doesn't even exist anymore ("Bruhathkayosaurus" and Maraapunisaurus)

[umbral kite]

y

[velvet burrow]

.

[stable sun]

What crest? It doesn't have a crest

[outer tusk]

there's no crest

[river plinth]

In the picture 💀

[outer tusk]

it's ridge

[light osprey]

A clamp analysis produced a CMMT of 2.3(?) or something near that. If it’s accurate than it would’ve probably experienced freezing temperatures occasionally though lessened with the reduced diurnal temperature variation at that higher latitude

[umbral kite]

i see it

[river plinth]

Ooh ok

[drifting condor]

Doesn't stegosaurus have gular armor

And wouldn't it's plates around it's neck make targeting the neck harder

[outer tusk]

Stegosauurs quite literlaly has thorat armor

[drifting condor]

Going for it's head seems hard it may not have the strongest bite but it's still could it could be pretty painful

[fluid inlet]

@stiff osprey cooked u ngl champ

[stiff osprey]

all five newtons of stegosaurus bite force would surely deter the allosaurus from attacking it

[tough parcel]

Random don't you know predators always back down when faced with any sort of resistance or pain!

[drifting condor]

?

[stable sun]

meanwhile Camarasaurus which had the bite force of Suchomimus for some reason

[drifting condor]

Yeah

[pliant cedar]

the fearsome allosaurus is no match for the powerful bite of stegosaurus

what if its bite removed a scale, causing infection?????????
Clearly too much of a threat to engage at any time

[compact leaf]

to commit crime

[hallow spear]

It’s actually quite strong, for its size anyway

[drifting condor]

I poorly simulated allosaurus vs stegosaurus I guess you guys win

Should I do a rematch

[stiff osprey]

Allosaurus actually hunted stegosaurs by pushing them off cliffs... fascinating theory

[drifting condor]

Yeah real footage

[fossil ingot]

Peak guy

[steady rock]

how good were stegosaurids at rearing up?

[drifting condor]

Not the best their kinda fat but kentrosaurus might have been able to pretty well

[velvet burrow]

Is that big or small?

[fossil ingot]

Like
Around 5-6KN??
Majunga bites at 7.8kN anyways

[tough parcel]

Pretty good considering their COG is more towards their back end

[steady rock]

oh yeah, dont we have trackways of them walking on their back legs or something?

[velvet burrow]

I'm bad at newtons but yeah that doesn't look small, roughly 600kg

Hard to picture with Suchomimus (at least for me) since it's jaws look like this

[outer tusk]

here's Afrovenator with the more appoprporite head

[drifting condor]

Where's the afro

[fossil ingot]

Maybe?
10kN should be 1 ton
So yeah close enough

[loud wasp]

Would it be possible for Spino to knuckle walk since we haven’t found concrete fossils for it’s arms yet? I for one would believe it to some extent… (I know it’s an outdated question but I’d like to hear your opinions on it)

[fossil ingot]

Tmk Mf would MAYBE stand Still to Crouch
But walking mf would like
Break its writs/arms tmk
Thats why bfo is bipedal

[loud wasp]

Fair, theropod wrists aren’t made for support anyways. but it’s always a cool concept to think about…

[outer tusk]

no because even with it's relatively short legs in comparison other similar size theropods there is just no reasonable reason for spinosaurus to need to be move on it's plams

[hallow spear]

Sucho bites with around 440kgf iirc

[stable sun]

Btw so does Camarasaurus

[hallow spear]

Potentially

[drifting condor]

I can simulate any battle what should I do first

[thorn grove]

T. rex vs Thescelosaurus

[drifting condor]

No

[fluid inlet]

This good

[tough parcel]

I nearly had a heart attack thinking that was my photo

[drifting condor]

https://tenor.com/view/godzilla-shin-kaiju-gif-16223976

[fluid inlet]

HMNS ?

[drifting condor]

So goodzilla vs allosaurus

[tough parcel]

Yea I was there a few months back and had taken a photo similar to that (or tried to)

[drifting condor]

But the biggest stegosaurus could beat the biggest allosaurus?

[stiff osprey]

if the Allosaurus mistimed its ambush sure

[drifting condor]

So on a average allo slams

[loud wasp]

Has anyone found any arm fossils for spinosaurus

[stiff osprey]

if you were to like put the two in an arena and made them fight to the death I reckon the stego would win most of the time

but like in a realistic scenario see the previous convo

[drifting condor]

But in the wild allo would win

[warped peak]

Unless a herbivore is over double their size, most carnivores do extremely well in an ambush. That's just how hunting goes

The vast majority of predators will seek an ambush opportunity

[drifting condor]

Wait how would even ambush stegosaurus when it's sleeping or something

[stiff osprey]

like any other predator, waiting behind cover for the target to come close

but yeah sneaking up on it while asleep would also work

[river plinth]

Thing about stego is it was the larger than all it's predators as a adult so yong or weak individuals probably got picked off

[river plinth]

Attacking a stegosaurus from behind is the worst idea tbh

[drifting condor]

Seems like stegosaurus would usually lose guess I'm a allo fan :<

[river plinth]

Not at all wad the other way around mostly especially aginst allosaurus we even got a specimen that was impaled in his junk

[umbral kite]

tarbosaurus with the Cinereous Vulture skin

[river plinth]

Nice

[stiff osprey]

As oogma said, the fact that we have a fossil of an Allosaurus that lost the fight means it would have won most of the time. Predators aren't stupid, they don't pick prey that they think will demolish them

[outer tusk]

What's with the big dewlap

[river plinth]

Why I said weak individuals or Yong were picked off 🤷🏾‍♂️

[stiff osprey]

sure, most predators prefer the young and injured. That doesn't mean adults are immune to predation

[hallow spear]

Tell this to the trike fanboys

[river plinth]

Probably over weight

Kinda think of it what would overweight dinosaurs look like

[umbral kite]

it was said to have that under it neck like a turkey

[hallow spear]

Interestingly though the amount of pathologies thought to be from Allosaurus in dinosaurs from the Morrison is quite extensive if I recall correctly

[outer tusk]

Technically it's sort of debated as the only direct evidence is a lost fossil which isn't here anymore

But such a size dewlap seems a bit much on the soft tissue said for animal like tarbosaurus

[umbral kite]

some make it smaller

[river plinth]

Possible

@outer tusk yeah
I also think all large dinosaurs were saggy looking like elephants imo

[steady rock]

how many different ceratopsians did rex live with from every formation its in?

[outer tusk]

Uhm idk about that but okay

Again for tarbosaurus specifically we don't know to what extent a dewlap would be in life but it probably was nowhere near the size where it seems to be as wide as the torso

[umbral kite]

it called a snood

[hallow spear]

3 and a half, or 4 and a half depending what you label as stupid and not stupid

[steady rock]

torosaurus, triceratops ( are we counting both species of it? ) nedo ( if you think its real ) ?

[outer tusk]

what you depicted isn't a snood

[river plinth]

Come now over 5 or even 3 tons and you don't have a single jelly roll or gamma flap you can't say it's not possible

[hallow spear]

This cd too long

[umbral kite]

ohhh i thought it was the the one under it neck

[steady rock]

Sierraceratops too?

[river plinth]

Fr man
1:00?! Oh naw 👋🏾

[outer tusk]

size technically has no relevance when it comes to features like snood, wattles, and other display feature

[hallow spear]

Archosaurs don’t exactly work like that sooo, it’s not as simple as saying that imo

[sullen cairn]

technically that's mcraeensis but in any case tmk sierraceratops is the only confirmed ceratopsid in hall lake

[drifting condor]

Guess I'm a stego fan again:>

[steady rock]

Well if we count mcraeensis too, how many ceratopsians then?

[river plinth]

Not really a snood thing it's over all just weight with how large you are

At least to sum degree they would had

Still 1:00 wow

[outer tusk]

regardless such features and the size that they were espeically on large bodied theropods is very much speculative and somewhat up to the user on how they wish to depict it though for the most part likely weren't that visible

[river plinth]

Fair I guess

[steady rock]

could large marine reptiles devolpe blubber? or their own type, do we have any fossil evidence of that?

[river plinth]

Had to you know how cold water gets especially when you go deepsr?! Even salt water crocs are fatter to deal with the cold waters of the ocean

[steady rock]

had to you know? Xd

i wonder how it would feel compared to mammal blubber

[stiff osprey]

we have body outline preservation from plesiosaurs and it's a lot thicker than you'd expect from just skin and muscle, so yes they probably had blubber

[river plinth]

Look at that pretty face is speaks I need help getting up

[steady rock]

fat crocodile

this is gonna sound weird but what would be wider/fatter?
sarco or purru? bcuz ik irl caiman are skinny as hell

[river plinth]

Probably purr
Sarco was practically a giant Ghar with a mouth targeted towards snatching quick or slippery prey so it was probably a little sleaker at least to swim faster

[steady rock]

and im gonna assume deino is the widest?

oh

[river plinth]

Yes but I'm using it in reference because it's snout quite was similar meaning with its large size if it got you your not getting out no matter how quickly or slippery ypu are lol

It was likely with that possible semi sleek but giant combo better at ambushing large and even smaller prey with fish on top of that to

[warped peak]

It wasn't though

It's closer to that of an Orinoco Crocodile than a gharial by far

[steady rock]

What's that? A orinoco crocodile

[river plinth]

They seem generally going for the same function to me imo

[steady rock]

What does a gharials skull look like compared to sarcos I wonder

[river plinth]

Left side or the picture I sent

[outer tusk]

Gharial skull are very much thinner than an adult sarcosuchus skull top and side view

[elfin pulsar]

Sarco skull vs gharial is pretty day and night imo

[warm saddle]

Yesh not really all that simmilar

[river plinth]

Literally long snout with a button just like it one is just giant and strong enough to clamp a dinosaur

[fluid inlet]

Well I wouldn’t expect an apex predator of its era to have a toothpick biter on it tbh.

[river plinth]

Like of corse it's going to have thicker and stronger bones to snag dinosaurs plus it's a giant but they literally function and structure the same

[fluid inlet]

I wouldn’t agree on that second part just look at the difference in build , i understand where them being similar comes from but it’s key differences.

[halcyon cobalt]

snagging dinosaurs and snagging little fish and frogs are pretty different functions ( though sarco probably also snagged fish and frogs, along with much larger game )

[topaz shell]

Lurdusaurus victim

[halcyon cobalt]

yup lurdusaurus is a victim

[frigid delta]

i think this also applies on @tough parcel too ig?
otherwise, this bone

[thorn grove]

that's the ischium

[river plinth]

How big was lurdusaurus?

[river plinth]

That's what I said 💀 but I added the fact that sarcos gigantic size would have alowed it to prey on dinosaurs to

[halcyon cobalt]

you said they served the same function 🤓☝️

[river plinth]

Both had a long snout that allows them to cut through water when hunting prey with sharp teeth built towards holding prey down to were they can't loosen

[stable sun]

Ischium

[robust crane]

it might sound stupid but. are humans and neanderthals the gigas and rex of the hominids, because humans are taller and thinner but neanderthals are shorter and stockier.

[halcyon cobalt]

probably not since there are more factors that differ Rex from giga other than dimensions

[frigid delta]

@stable sun also cuz they replied me too

[stable sun]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ischium

[fossil ingot]

They even ain't tbh
Like they said, An Orinoco is Closer skull wise to Sarco than a Gharial or even False Gharial is to Sarco

@steady rock
Puru.
Puru been a caiman won't make it skinnier by rule.
Puru is like same weight as Deinosuchus when both are the same Length and iirc its Heavier than a Astorgo even at similar Lengths

[frigid delta]

same weight?
wasn't Puru 6t while Deinos is 9t?

[halcyon cobalt]

“when same length “

[frigid delta]

ah silly me

[tulip gyro]

Tomistoma goat mentioned🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥

[halcyon cobalt]

clearly sarcosuchus is analogous to the cowardly fish eating gharial!

[scenic flame]

there have also been tooth isotope tests on Sarco, Eocarcharia and Sucho to determine what sort of prey they were generally taking, sarco's results indicated it was half and half with aquatic and terrestrial prey

[runic rover]

Lourinha my beloved

[stable sun]

Wait what is this specimen

[runic rover]

Torvosaurus Gunyieri

[fossil ingot]

Deino is 8t not 9t and I said same length

[runic rover]

Replica* at the Lourinha dinosaur park

[fossil ingot]

Def same thing wdym

[stable sun]

Doesn't look to be accurately restored going by Torvosaurus tanneri I think

[hallow spear]

It definitely isn’t

[grizzled kraken]

Ive been looking alot into the different actual and proposed allosaurus species lately... been super sucked into it. Im curious what everyone prefers... Fragilis or Jimmadensi? What are your thoughts on Allosaurus Anax? (I dont think this is an official thing... more of a classification for now since poor fossil evidence, used to be saurophaganax). What are your thoughts on Epanterias Amplexus? Do you really think allosaurus could have had a 40 ft spiecies?

[scenic flame]

Randomdinos made a chart of all(?) allosaurus specimens that can be decently scaled

[stable sun]

1. There are 4 known species that likely exist. Allosaurus fragilis, jimmadseni, europaeus and anax.
2. What do you mean it isn't an offcial thing? The paper was published.
3. Saurophaganax is a separate thing. It's not Allosaurus and it is a nomen dubium genus and likely a sauropod.
4. Epanterias amplexus is likely about 11-12 m but the issue is that it is Allosaurus but it's also nomen dubium.

[scenic flame]

red = A. fragilis
blue = A. jimmadseni
green = A. europaeus
purple = A. sp.

[stable sun]

Not all. There's a lot more specimens that can be decently scaled.

[scenic flame]

A. anax is a better taxon than Sauro, but it's still highly unstable, even if it remains valid it's a mess

[stable sun]

It will remain valid.

[scenic flame]

I don't think certainty to that extent is wise or responsible

[stable sun]

It has diagnostic characters not present in other species. I don't see the issue.

[grizzled kraken]

Reply to 2: Ok I read something that they were thinking of making it A. Anax but wasn't sure if it was official or not, or just like a proposed thing. Thanks for the clarification. Could you link the paper?

[stable sun]

https://journals.library.ualberta.ca/vamp/index.php/VAMP/article/view/29404

[scenic flame]

because it's a messy taxon no matter what with the information we currently have

[stable sun]

Irrelevant. The holotype has diagnostic characters making it valid.

[scenic flame]

I think it's pretty dam relevant

[stable sun]

No, it isn't. It will remain valid because the holotype can be distinguished from all other species. And that's what matters.

[scenic flame]

that doesn't prohibit it from being assigned to a separate genus in the future, I'm not saying it will or that there's even a good chance, but I really don't like making such absolutist statements, especially about something so fragmentary

[grizzled kraken]

So Epanterias amplexus (amnh 5767) is nomen dubium? Is it because there arent enough defining characteristics to certainly catergorize it as an allo?

[scenic flame]

esp since most of the referred material doesn't really have any overlap tmk, which whole not invalidating the species of the holotype remains stable, it still makes it something to have an air of caution about, when making such absolutist statements

[stable sun]

It is Allosaurus. But it is nomen dubium either way, as a species. It can't be distinguished from other Allosaurus species.

[grizzled kraken]

Ahh gotcha that makes sense

[stable sun]

Genera are basically arbitrary. Also, if it gets a separate genus... It will still remain a valid taxon. I don't see your point. Fragmentary taxa can be diagnostic.

[scenic flame]

^ which is to say, it's uncertain if it's a valid species of allosaurus separate from the others, or if it's undiagnostic which would make it "Allosaurus sp.", or if it's just another speciemen of a named species

[scenic flame]

my point is that I don't think it's stable enough as allosaurus sp. to be stated with absolutist certainty to be valid for the foreseeable future, but rather should be stated to be solidly valid as we can currently tell

[stable sun]

It's still a valid species that will definitely remain valid in the future and that's my point. It's also very similar to Allosaurus and so is all of the material in the quarry. It is probably Allosaurus.

[stable sun]

Well yeah it is undiagnostic

[scenic flame]

I was breaking it down more to help others understand it better

[grizzled kraken]

Thanks guys for the explanations!

[outer tusk]

You're not welcome!

[grizzled kraken]

^^

[calm agate]

Going to be entirely real, having this utter level of confidence in it remaining valid in the future is absolutely insane given that the authors themselves openly express that A.anax may in fact get lumped into another Allosaurus species once individual variation is understood better within the genus.
While the authors throughout the paper are confident not everything can be explained by individual variation, the mere fact that they bring it up as a genuine concern in the conclusion is enough to have at least some level of caution in mind and not make such direct blanket statements on future validity, as you should really have for the majority of highly fragmentary taxa like this.

[scenic flame]

my thoughts exactly

[scenic flame]

that level of confidence imo is reserved for the validity of things like Tyrannosaurus rex, or Allosaurus fragilis

[tough parcel]

Perhaps then we should lump A. fragilis into T. rex to prove you wrong...

[scenic flame]

https://tenor.com/view/hah-wow-walter-white-breaking-bad-baki-gif-12920693607247280909

[stray saddle]

Don't let anything of this distrac you from the fact that UK destroyed a real spinosaurus squeleton in Berlin in a bombin raid during 1944

[tough parcel]

Yea I don't think anyone...doesn't know

[outer tusk]

Am just curious is the amount of detailing okay

[lone zephyr]

is this a juvenile megalosauroid?

[outer tusk]

It has 2 fingers 😭

[lone zephyr]

mb i didnt see

[outer tusk]

It's a juvenile tarbosaurus

[grizzled kraken]

And Fragilis would be more valild then lets say, Jimmedensi because there are just a substantial amount more fossil evidence? Strictly confidence level speaking.

Genuinely curious, im still learning haha ^^

[scenic flame]

no, both are equally valid, tmk. fragilis can only jerpordise the existance of jimmadseni if jimmadseni's key identifing traits are found to be due to individual variantion etc, or just not distinct enough etc. Because fragilis was named before jimm, it take prioity if they're found to be synonymous

[lone zephyr]

is this accurate or nah, cus im seriously doubting this rn

[scenic flame]

I'm pretty sure these illustrations are still good, also tmk A. europaeus is kinda unstable because we have very few specimens and the ones we have aren't super complete

[grizzled kraken]

Yea that makes sense... in all of the reading i have done about allosaurus i feel like Europaeus is rarely even mentioned

[scenic flame]

it's accurate, Spinosauridae is inside Megalosauria

[tough parcel]

And by extension, in Carnosauria

[lone zephyr]

:0

[lone zephyr]

correct me if im wrong but i dont think it was confirmed that megalosauroidae is part of carnosauria, although its likely

[tough parcel]

With Asfaltovenator, it revived Carnosauria and put Spinosauridae into Megalosauria then Megalosauria into Carnosauria

No? It was real far away from being in there

[scenic flame]

tmk yes but it's jumps around abit, sometimes it falls out side of it in phylogenetic software.

Which for those who don't know, modern phyogenetic trees are generally made by placing various species into a software with several specific characteristics of their anatomy in order to calculate how close they are toeachother (at least I'm pretty sure that's how it's done)

[broken venture]

that was a joke

[stable sun]

Fair. I'd still consider it probably valid though.

[stable sun]

Spinosaurus has been in Megalosauria way before Asfaltovenator

[tough parcel]

Woah crazy

But Asfaltovenator is what put Spinosauridae into Megalosauria as of late

[stiff osprey]

Spinosaurs being megalosauroids is a lot better supported than megalosauroids being carnosaurs however

[stable sun]

No. They have been in Megalosauria long before that. In 1998 Sereno already considered Spinosaurs and Megalosaurs to be closely related.

Carrano et al. (2012) also recovered that long before Australovenator and used Megalosauria for the Spinosaur + Megalosaur clade.

[foggy mulch]

Spinosaur the goat

[tough parcel]

"As of late" is the important part

[stable sun]

Not sure what do you mean

[outer tusk]

Petition to name Marfim carcharodontosauria indet.

"Curupirasaurus brasiliensis"

[winter marsh]

Amostradinhosaurus Riodejaneirensis better frfr

[runic rover]

( @stable sun ) Yeah, this is meant to be the European one, ANYWAY why is nobody telling me dinosaurs had substitute teeth like crocs and sharks

This can quite easily tip the scales on the lips debate, since all of the debate is about modern land animals who don't regrow them

[warped peak]

don't we literally have lizards that do

This also honestly doesn't change the fact that dinosaurs that didn't have beaks or grossly protruding teeth like spinosaurus likely had lips based off of skeletal and phylogenetic evidence

[runic rover]

Oh good, if we have proofs they did then ok, but most of the times I herd the debate was just theoretically

Still I am flabbergasted that dinosaurs had real regrowing teeth like crocs and sharks!

[warped peak]

Don't make me think about the Camara lip nightmare

[river plinth]

That's not my point and you know it

[winter marsh]

trunked brachiosaurus

[warped peak]

pseudo-beaked lips that get shed alongside a battery of teeth all at once (potentially)

[tough parcel]

It's not all theoretical, but a substantial (imo) argument against no lips is dinosaurs did not have a reason to lose them except specific instances, like Spinosaurus

And because the "default" mode for tetrapods are lips, dinosaurs would've started out with lips

[winter marsh]

you telling me half their mouth falls offs for shedding, great, like my day couldnt get any frekier

[patent mist]

Who says it's just one sauropod

[river plinth]

That's not my point and you know it 💀

[halcyon cobalt]

why did you need to tell me twice

[left fulcrum]

Sup little sarco Victims

[steady rock]

this is me irl i would NOT be a sarco victim

would i be a sarco victim

[restive crag]

Sarco is a me victim

[steady rock]

sarco boots

[restive crag]

There’s a reason that john is extinct

[wooden warren]

I love tarbosaurus

[fossil ingot]

Sarco is kinda your weight with better weapons tho....

[restive crag]

Tyrannosaurus bataar?

[fossil ingot]

Sarco peak

[wooden warren]

Yes baatar

Is there another subspieces

[restive crag]

species

[wooden warren]

Are you a bot correcting me

[tough parcel]

💀 Lmao

[wooden warren]

Is he ?

[stable sun]

Why is there "Beagliam 2.0" 💀

[fossil ingot]

Idk

[wooden warren]

Yeah we’re the first model?💀

[steady rock]

were*

[tough parcel]

Where*

[wooden warren]

Auto correct guys i swear

[steady rock]

https://tenor.com/view/trisha-paytas-stan-twitter-crying-dramatic-funny-gif-22170581

[river plinth]

It got deleted

[steady rock]

smaller sauropods were able to live with large spinosaurids right?

[compact leaf]

it has happened a couple times so yeah

[stable sun]

i know who beagliam is but why is that guy beagliam 2.0 though

[steady rock]

a couple of times? i thought only sucho and nigersaurus

[compact leaf]

there’s smaller sauropods living with spino as well, granted how those avoided predation by carchs isn’t entirely understood but they didn’t have to worry about spino

[stable sun]

Spinosaurus and Rebbachisaurus, Spinosaurus and Aegytptosaurus

Update: nvm rebbachisaurus is 16 tonnes

[compact leaf]

yeah rebbachi is a bit large, but aegypto the point stands

[steady rock]

any sauropods under 5 tons that lived in either swamp, costal or wetland areas? ( magysaurus and eurposaurus dont count )

[gritty escarp]

This is interesting

[scenic flame]

lil late to the party

[gritty escarp]

Felt like it
How late

[tough parcel]

56 days

[gritty escarp]

Wait fr? 💀
Where do y'all get your information

[tough parcel]

Sorry I meant 3 days

[warped peak]

https://tenor.com/view/roz-monsters-inc-gif-21427129

[gritty escarp]

That's not so bad

[tough parcel]

Yea it's not at all, Vivid's just joking because if not, I would have to reveal the true nature of Allosaurus

[gritty escarp]

Is there any paleonews things I could follow to stay up to date

[tough parcel]

Not really ngl, but the biggest news will pop up here real fast

[gritty escarp]

Wish there was a news channel that was all focused on paleo stuff

[warped peak]

Ben G Thomas kinda

[steady rock]

top 3 biggest spinosaurids?
im gonna assume
spinosaurus
suchomimus
but what would the third be?

[hallow spear]

It’s a predator!!

[coral bluff]

Baryonyx?

[frigid delta]

what abt this kind of agility on Rex?

[steady rock]

its like, 4 tons maybe less? so i dont know

[coral bluff]

thought you meant size not weight

[steady rock]

dosent biggest equate to weight?

[coral bluff]

I guess

[halcyon cobalt]

spinosaurus suchomimus oxalia or something

[steady rock]

i always forgot oxalia is a thing

[stable sun]

Spinosaurus, Sigilmassasaurus, Cristatusaurus Suchomimus

[steady rock]

isnt siglmassasaurus similar sized to bary?

wow its hella big

[coral bluff]

what's the website you got that picture from?

[halcyon cobalt]

Deviantart

[steady rock]

https://prehistoric-wiki.fandom.com/wiki/Sigilmassasaurus uhm...

[coral bluff]

turns out its also the first picture on google lol

[steady rock]

i dont suggest using fandom for your prehestoric knowledge, its worse then wikipedia

[winter marsh]

oxalaia in second and vectispinus in third

[steady rock]

im getting alot of different answers, may i have weights ?

[steady rock]

ty random

[stable sun]

Wb Marfim fm caudal and that larger Protathlitis

[steady rock]

did silgammasaurus have a sail or nah?

[quartz rock]

Does anyone know how to get ioa testing

[steady rock]

isnt that a modding team? if it is, best to ask #modding

[coral bluff]

the picture just shows a small hump

[steady rock]

yeah but the skeletal has a spinosaurus sail

[coral bluff]

we need more fossils

[steady rock]

so its unknown if it would've had one or not?

[fluid inlet]

We solo the wannabe giga

[winter marsh]

its unknown if it even was a thing, some people think it might be a new spinosaurus species or synonym

[outer tusk]

Spinosaurus, sigilmassasaurus and suchomimus

[stiff osprey]

marfim caudal and the referred Protathlitis would be #4 and 5 probably

[outer tusk]

marfim caudal before oxalaia is crazy work

[fluid inlet]

wtf I don’t remember oxalia being that “small”

[steady rock]

whats a marfim caudal and protathlitis?

[winter marsh]

oxalaia used to be 14 meters long but they shrank it togther with spinosaurus

[outer tusk]

oxalaia was never 14 meters long

[fluid inlet]

It was , I confirm I was there when it happened

[winter marsh]

it was. at the time spino was 18-16

[stable sun]

It was when Spinosaurus was 18 m

[frigid delta]

when ur only fossil remaining got burned within the museum in 2018:

[stable sun]

Oxalaia material is 1/5 of a snout that was turned into dust anyway

[coral bluff]

poor thing

[frigid delta]

same thing also applies on Spino in 1944

[stable sun]

bombed not burned in this case

[fossil ingot]

Why is my Goat Sucho only 5 tons? /j

[opaque kayak]

Honestly it looks weird when Sucho is supposed to be almost spino size

[opaque kayak]

Scale tinest fragments to make a 10 ton robust and slender morph

[stiff osprey]

what

[coral bluff]

how much do you think it weighs?

[stiff osprey]

not sure which species we're talking about but i'm the one that made the chart

[opaque kayak]

Can we get much higher

[opaque kayak]

Kinda odd looking at it

[frigid delta]

nah

[frigid delta]

i wonder if non avian theropods can do this too...

[ionic crescent]

That name needs to be destroyed, cast into the fire

[fossil ingot]

Not really
Spino is Bulkier, Denser and Longer
So it been Heaviee its alr
Dan's Sucho gets to like 5.4 tons tmk at max, And I have seen a model that can go from 4.8-5.6 tons
Then again Sucho is Weird lol

[fluid inlet]

wtf is that neck lol

[outer tusk]

the model is based on Sereno's scan, so is Dan's

[steady rock]

Can someone get me both carnos and galli's speed estimates?

[outer tusk]

Sauro's sucho is peak

[fossil ingot]

Dan's is Tmk 12.14m and 5.4t

Tho I also like this guy

12m and 5t matches more this guy tmk

[steady rock]

did i do a good job at scaling? (original skeletons )

[warped peak]

Seems reasonable

[steady rock]

aw ty

what was amargas and cristasaurus enviorments like?

[warped peak]

Pretty indescript IIRC

[steady rock]

well, south america was pretty dry and arid back then iirc so we can assume so was amarga's formation

[fossil ingot]

I need more sucho skeletals smh
I have like 3 but I need more

[coral bluff]

is sucho your fave dino?

[fossil ingot]

Nah.
Its maybe Carcha or Spino ngl but Sucho is arguably Top 3

[river plinth]

I'm scared

[outer tusk]

use this one

[river plinth]

I mean elephants need to look up to giraffes while still weighing more but hight can come in cluch sometimes

[steady rock]

why does it look like that

[outer tusk]

idk ask the amargasaurus

[steady rock]

is this better?

[fossil ingot]

Meg appreciation post

[outer tusk]

yes

[drifting condor]

Do we know how flexible stegosaurus tail was?

[fluid inlet]

Flexible

[coral bluff]

found this (idk how accurate this is)

[drifting condor]

Could it detach and start dancing

[coral bluff]

what

[drifting condor]

It's a joke

[coral bluff]

^

[rich vessel]

https://tenor.com/view/finding-nemo-bruce-for-a-clownfish-hes-not-that-funny-hes-not-funny-clownfish-gif-25555652

[fluid inlet]

https://tenor.com/view/fish-are-food-nemo-shark-gif-22389034

[drifting condor]

Hey I'm the funniest clown fish around

[rich vessel]

https://tenor.com/view/finding-nemo-marlin-if-this-is-some-kind-of-practical-joke-its-not-funny-and-i-know-funny-gif-26146839

[umbral kite]

look at my para isnt it cool

[high depot]

yes

[river plinth]

He's on his way
We're exactly? He dosent know but he's getting there ☺️

[umbral kite]

i just need some reference to finsih it

[umbral kite]

hes standing still

[balmy oyster]

[drifting condor]

Also how valid is 8 ton stegosaurus

[coral bluff]

some sources say it was lighter

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2015/march/weight-of-the-worlds-most-complete-stegosaurus-revealed.html

[balmy oyster]

As valid as every other random big assorted femur

Though large isolated stego material has been scaled I believe so I think it can be valid, just not assignable to any specific species atm

[opaque kayak]

It's the guy who always puts on crazy soft tissue for spinosaurids

[halcyon cobalt]

let’s return to shrink wrapping 💔💔

[drifting condor]

Luckily my favorite species of stegosaurus isn't stenops

[ashen wedge]

Better than any of my drawings

[river plinth]

[honest cobalt]

So Smol

Didn’t expect a lot of them to look like mosas

[steady rock]

does that count as convergant evolution?

[river plinth]

He's just a little guy

[honest cobalt]

You will need to ask someone smarter than me

[rich vessel]

Tiny baby

[fluid inlet]

Yes it would be

[pliant cedar]

parasaurolophus

[hardy sentinel]

If in some alternate universe where Torosaurus had turned out to be an adult Triceratops, would Torosaurus be changed to Triceratops because Triceratops came first, or would Triceratops change to Torosaurus because Torosaurus is the adult?

[coral bluff]

toro ➡️ trike

[frigid delta]

fatalis what have u done???

[shy fossil]

hey guys I'm new to this channel and I find the Torvosaurus attractive

[honest arrow]

I agree

[shy fossil]

no way I found out the saurophaganax is just a larger allosaurus

[frigid delta]

yes
#paleontology message

[shy fossil]

https://tenor.com/view/man-praying-black-man-praying-black-man-praying-and-crying-man-praying-and-crying-gif-23376408540985609

[halcyon cobalt]

always was tbh ( visually)

[potent bobcat]

I used to see this guy in almost all of the dinosaur books when I was growing up, and then never heard of him again. What happened to Sordes?

[winter marsh]

Thrown into the forgetness pit

[shy fossil]

Hatze but bebe

[frigid delta]

omg my shayla

[shy fossil]

Idk about birds

[stray saddle]

@merry jewel did you see an Allosaurus 11.7 meters long? I don't think you ever did cause its not on display.

You know, the fact of you going to a museum and seeing a couple of juvies doesn't makes you right

Now with this being said I will go to a school , watch a couple kids 10 years old. And state that humans are 1.20 meters tall

[ionic crescent]

You can state an opinion without being a prick, just saying

[merry jewel]

The pot one is 10m so its not even max estimates,but again design wise they based off sauro and not allo,i repeated twice and i said to end the convo.

You keep coming back and forth to me and no i havent seen couple of juvies i saw 3 sub adult skeletons lol

Like in all honesty you may be right or wrong but acting like this level of entitlement is rather childish.Im not an expert, and idk about you, but again the ones i have seen,asking my niece,reading,etc they are max estimates.But on pot case devs said its been said couple times it is oversized "in general" same with achillo and other animals

[stray saddle]

If you don't know the history we had in the other chat we can't talk🤷. He was the one coming like he was 100000% right when he isnt

[ionic crescent]

Acting childish won't make a difference, you can expose your facts in a proper way without talking that way

[stray saddle]

When did I act childish? I was just stating the truth the whole time. Going to a museum watching juvies is no proof of anything. But alright, peace

[fluid inlet]

Torvo victims per usual

[merry jewel]

I didnt say that,i simply mentioned what devs said that is all,but its obvious we disagree and its fine.

From my side i apologise if i made you feel uncomfortabke at some point,im simply saying that with animals and games or irl estimates theres always a lot of room to jiggle on sizes,and design wise alderon chose more of a saurophagonax one than an average allosaurus size

[stray saddle]

Achillo is def oversized I would say, and we wouldn't have to argue with that

[stray saddle]

It's all good. I just wish you could hear my voice trought texting, I'm always chill🥹. Sorry if it seemed different lol

[merry jewel]

Its okay,it simply seemed rather rude when reading but it can happen when using texts lol i just want to make clear i have no beef nor anything,simply that i think from what devs have said and the info ive readed,they went more of a saurophagonax size and design than a PURE allosaurus one on average

[stray saddle]

I do recognise I may get a little bit picky when I read Allo is oversized, because for me simply it isn't, so I don't know, it kicks in something in me🥹

@merry jewel yeah, no beef at all. Life is short

[merry jewel]

Understandable we all get hurt when a fav animal gets hit by some comments xD anyways its all good!Have a gd day though

[stray saddle]

Gd😂 whats your favourite animal by the way?

[merry jewel]

Overall?Spinosaurus number one,then concavenator and third place is rex/prestosuchidae in general

[stray saddle]

They should make spino tail attack a special one. Kinda like Barbs have for example.. my man has a giant tail and it makes 10 damage

Its sad hehe

[merry jewel]

If it had some sort of stun or could apply the wet debuff so it goes well with drenched blows would be amazing.

I do hope when spino gets a tlc, the sail texture is improved and the claws a bit, not that vanilla spino is bad but id love to get it closer to the irl one lookwise

[frigid delta]

it's a 50/50 chance
sometimes it can be Torvo but sometimes it can be Allo

[stray saddle]

I agree. He needs some love believe me....

Oh, and by the way.. may I ask which specimens you visited? I can ask my friend if it is know their age. I'm genuinely curious because actually I don't think they are juvies, but not adults as well

[fluid inlet]

I think it’s more 60/40 torvo

[hallow spear]

Based on what

[fluid inlet]

Based off the same 50/50 he made , a pretty significant stronger bite compared to wanna be hatchet man. Any more questions skippy ?

[hallow spear]

But their estimated biteforces at the same size are similar

[hallow spear]

So that argument is pretty baseless example for why they shouldn’t be 50/50

[fluid inlet]

Where’s your source on this skippy

[hallow spear]

Me, I’ve estimated the biteforce of allosaurus at a larger size, and I used randoms estimate for torvosaurus although maybe it’s a bit old

[fluid inlet]

Same sizes with a stronger bite in a bite fight sounds pretty much 60/40 to me

[outer tusk]

who's the same size

[fluid inlet]

If we don’t go same size it gets even more unfair for allosaurus

[celest pond]

Want to hear the funniest thing? One of the biggest Torvossaurus specimens (E. rex) was eaten by Allosaurus.

[celest pond]

And if we use the classic stratigraphy interpretation of Morrison you should know that torvosaurs went extinct way before Allosaurus and the end of the depositional period of the formation

So we have actual evidence of Allosaurus eating Torvosaurus but not the other way around and if someone would want to go bold with hypothesis they could argue Allosaurus outcompeted torvosaurs

[fluid inlet]

Anyone can scavenge a dead body, even you.

[stable sun]

Wait hold on what

[fluid inlet]

Also lack of evidence of Torvosaurus eating allosaurus doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, there a lot of stuff lacking in the fossil record that we can make an educated guess for.

[stable sun]

Yeah but there's a tooth from Kirkwood formation similar to that of Torvosaurus? ingens, so Torvosaurs survived until Berriasian-Hauterivian in Africa

[fluid inlet]

If I could go back in time I would of saved Torvosaurus 💔

[shy fossil]

that's literally an accurate parasaurolophus, idk why you guys are confused

[warped peak]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Allosaurus population in the Morrison physically heavier and larger than the Torvo population there?

[stray saddle]

Yes

[wraith kindle]

Still doesn’t exclude scavenging.

[fluid inlet]

That’s what the fossil record suggests, like triceratops in hell creek formation it makes up for a good amount of all fossils in that formation if iirc

[stray saddle]

And scavenging doesn't excludes Allos killing Torvos lol.

[warped peak]

I'm aware. It's just giving the odds even better to Torvo not eating Allo much

[wraith kindle]

Also, don’t predators tend not to scavenge other predator corpses? Not saying it doesn’t happen, just that they’d eat a herbivore carcass over a carni one if given the choice.

[merry jewel]

Aside from the minnesota museum in saint paul and big al i saw the AMNH 680 so those 3 which you can see a difference but they all still look fairly decent

[fluid inlet]

Not eating as much doesn’t mean it didn’t happen if anything it would make it much better odds of a torvo eating allosaurus whenever the circumstances were right as vice versa.

[stable sun]

Edmarka is about 5 tonnes what damn Allosaurus could actually hunt it (pretend anax and amplexus don't exist)

[quasi token]

it does happen a lot in oceanic ecosystems but there's basically no herbivores in most of those so lol

[fluid inlet]

None of them bro, it was scavenged lol.

[stray saddle]

Oh thank you so much for answering

[wraith kindle]

Well yeah, it’s structured a bit differently.

[celest pond]

I know but as you were the one asking for sources to people just pointed what the actual evidence is, so what you were saying isn't based in any evidence at all just guessed, while the other way around it is science based, of course it could be scavenger but applies to every fossil with bite marks, it has never been proved that a certain dino was hunted and successfully killed by another, only unhealed wounds

[fluid inlet]

I didn’t ask for any sources, don’t put words in my mouth I said Torvosaurus has better odds in killing allosaurus than the other way around. That was the initial conversation, everything else is just changing the goal post.

[quasi token]

but any rate large predators rarely hunt other large predators unless theres either a major size advantage (ex orcas and gws) and/or one of them has some sort of major environmental advantage (ex crocodilian and cat interactions), so if a torvosaurus has bite marks, it's likely from either scavenging or some type of territorial behaviour if there's evidence of healing

[pseudo harbor]

Anyone know the name of this fossil

[wraith kindle]

Yea, without soft tissue, it’s hard to prove fatal wounds unless it’s some hit to the head that would be 100% definitively lethal, but I don’t think any dinos went for skull crushing.

[stable sun]

Largest Jurassic Megalosauroids and Allosauroids both reached similar sizes of ~12 m

[stray saddle]

You literally asking about the source here 😂

[fluid inlet]

On the bite force of each one being the same size , learn to read.

[wraith kindle]

I thought that was evidence of a fight, not cuddling?

[warped peak]

Well considering that in the same formation Allosaurus was larger and lasted longer, potentially outcompeting it, while completely dominating it in terms of abundance, something is being missed

[celest pond]

What is this then? all your arguments are based on your guessing, not actual evidence nor studies, just pointed out that and the fact that at least there is a slight evidence for the other way around and nothing more, of course I'm not saying Allosaurus were killing Torvosaurus but to say the opposite is even worse

[stray saddle]

But they weren't same size, Allo was generally larger

[warped peak]

I wouldn't worry about it. Can lead a horse to a library but can't make it read

[fluid inlet]

It’s not an argument, you’re turning it into one. I said biggest to biggest specimens Torvosaurus would win and in same to same sizes I’d favor Torvosaurus because of the stronger bite force. That’s hilarious Wes because all of you literally changed the goal post and cannot read 🤣

[warped peak]

The biggest Torvosaurus specimens are the same size as the biggest Allosaurus specimens

[stray saddle]

Torvosaurus skull is too incomplete to make good test about its bite. It kinda remains a mystery. But definitely it's not aiming to be stronger than Allo

[stable sun]

We don't have the bite force for Torvo afaik

[wraith kindle]

Isn’t Torvo a descendant of Allo?

[fluid inlet]

Read bud, and what else did I mention same to same size I favor Torvosaurus because of the bite force , so what are you chatting besides nothing

[celest pond]

Yeah but all that is you guessing, not based in actual anything but your opinion

[quasi token]

no, different theropod branches that look similiar but aren't very close (allosauroid and megalosauroid)

[warped peak]

And then the paleontologist said that Torvo didn't have a bite force advantage and you ignored it

[wraith kindle]

Oh right, it’s a megalosaur, nvm.

Hi forumer named Torvo

[stable sun]

Out of the known specimens, yes. But Allosaurus was also much more common and the largest species of Allosaurus (A. anax) didn't coexist with Torvo

[warped peak]

And the largest specimens of Torvo didn't coexist with the largest species of Allo either.

[calm agate]

*Allosaurus lives in areas of the Morrison where it is much more likely to fossilise and thus appears to be the more common animal
For all we know Torvo is just as abundant as Allo but sticks primarily to the gallery forests where Morrisons preservation is at its lowest

[stable sun]

Well my point is that Allosaurus has much more known specimens

[wraith kindle]

Did Allosaurus itself have descendants?

[quasi token]

probably not as far as we know

[fluid inlet]

Actually random mentioned it himself that Torvosaurus would have the stronger bite force , and randomdinos ain’t a liar.

[warped peak]

No, he did not. He said it had teeth the size of swords

[quasi token]

that's not a higher bite force, that's just torvo's huge teeth giving it a presumably more dangerous bite

[fluid inlet]

@stiff osprey

[stable sun]

Torvosaurus has more known 10+ m specimens than Allosaurus despite being there being much less known individuals

[quasi token]

actually out of curiosity how big are torvo's teeth exactly?

[frosty cedar]

The bite force is the result of muscle and cranial structure, not necessarily teeth.

[celest pond]

That's literally not true, everytime a torvosaurus was found it was found alongside Allosaurus and when it wasn't it was the only vertebrate of the quarry,Torvosaurus is present in Utah (DNM, CLQ), Wyoming (Como Bluff) and Colorado (DM and GP) it is outnumbered by a factor of 10 in the entire Morrison and almost 7 in those areas.

[warped peak]

At this point we common folk should stay out of the line of fire

[stable sun]

That doesn't mention bite force

[quasi token]

everyone, to the sauropod shelters!

[celest pond]

Untrue, why is people lying everywhere?

[calm agate]

Unless you are claiming that fossilisation = direct evidence of an animals abundance in life, something no palaeontologist would ever suggest as the fossil record is inherently untrustworthy on such matters. Then I do not know how you can make the claim that it is untrue that Allosaurus appears to be more abundant simply based on the fossil record alone, something that is well known to be inherently biased to certain conditions.

[fluid inlet]

Bro has a allosaurus poster above his bedroom wall.

[celest pond]

I studied geology and geomorphology, with a degree in anatomical scientific illustration and I have been (and currently still) studying morrison allosaruid remains

[fluid inlet]

Check this out bud @white matrix

[celest pond]

Because there are direct studies about it? But thinking you have read them is giving you too much credit at this point

[warped peak]

Obviously this means that Torvo ate and outcompeted all the Allosaurus

[stable sun]

What do you mean untrue?

Dry Mesa skull, Edmarka, ML 1100, ML 632, Elvis, CEUM coll. pubis, MB R 1050, BMNH R 6758, one Portugal vertebrae specimen (i forgot specimen number), that fibula from Tendaguru (refferral uncertain)

[fluid inlet]

No one indicated that.

[calm agate]

And instead of linking said studies to enlighten someone you have immediately went straight for an attempted insult. An excellent choice.

[wraith kindle]

Can we chill a bit? We don’t want a 2 min timer in here again.

[celest pond]

Theropod turnover in late Jurassic

[calm agate]

I would like links to the actual papers so I can read them in full rather than cut out screenshots.

[stray saddle]

Like they gonna read them

[restive crag]

PoT Paleochat is full the of the brightest minds

[calm agate]

Unfortunately, unlike the claims maid by MorrisonFPaleo I do read when provided the material. But I prefer to be provided with the full material rather than just bits and pieces of it.

[celest pond]

It would be safer to only refer to Morrison torvos and gurney as there are other European giant megalosaurid taxa in the Upper Jurassic as cf streptospondylus altdorfensis, could you be referring to the muja caudal vertebra for the Portugal vertebrate?

[fluid inlet]

I’ll be asking Paleontologists Darius Nau about these subjects as well, hes pretty knowledgeable all around. He’s a good person to refer to.

[celest pond]

Paleontology and Geology of the Upper Jurassic Morrison Formation: Bulletin 36

And description paper of wiehenvenator

[stable sun]

MB R 1050, BMNH R 6758 and MB R 3627 are all from Tendaguru, not Europe

Streptospondylus likely didn't reach such large sizes but ig

I didn't mean MUJA-1913 (also I thought it was Spanish? i also forgot it, so include that too ig), I remember a different individual but I'd need to find the paper

[celest pond]

I know those are Tendaguru but as there are giant megalosaurids other than torvo already in Europe, where there is also torvo, the referral of tendaguru elements to the genus torvosaurus is not well supported, and it hasn't been done in any paper as far as I'm aware, (to the genus, not to torvosaurinae), and about streptospondylus, that's why the cf. but that's the name given in the description of the material so we have to refer it like that, and also is 100% not torvosaurus

[stable sun]

It is supported though. A recent paper found the teeth of "Megalosaurus" ingens to be most similar to those of Torvosaurus

Streptospondylus largest specimens vertebrae are comparable to those of the Dry Mesa Torvosaurus verts, not anything that huge but fair

[celest pond]

Also in the paper of the megalosaurid remains from Iberia, the specimens are referred to as megalosaurid, and the one referred to torvo gurneyi is the other maxilla suspected to be from the same individual of the holotype, I have that paper

[stable sun]

there's also the Oles specimen but I am unsure what it even is I just learned about it idk anything on it

Among largest Megalosaurids, the Tendaguru fibula suggests ~12 m and ~5.9 t, the French premaxilla ~12.4m and ~6.6 t and Moroccan prints suggest ~12.6 m and ~6.8 t, but none are definitely Torvosaurus

[spare knot]

What species do we think would likely have a harem matriarchal social structure? If anyone wants to be speculative

[celest pond]

Oles is the cf. Streptospondylus I was talking about, 100% not torvo as it has 4 premaxilla alveoli

[stable sun]

Wdym?

[stable sun]

Never was said to be cf. Streptospondylus then.

Also I gtg I'll respond later

[celest pond]

That none of the vertebrae where specifically referred to Torvosaurus, they are megalosaurid but for now not diagnostically sufficient

[outer tusk]

what the hell did I miss 😭

[celest pond]

In the very description of the material

[fluid inlet]

4 hour road trip boys take it easy 🍻 be torvo fabulous.

[stable sun]

The paper itself says Megalosauridae indeterminate.

[celest pond]

Hence the cf in the name

[outer tusk]

the outline is kind of wack ngl

[stable sun]

that's only in one figure caption, everything else says Megalosauridae indet.

Streptospondylus isn't the only Megalosaurid from that formation. The premaxilla had to be put somewhere but that doesn't mean the authors believe it's probably Streptospondylus

[pliant cedar]

filthy different lizards no match for the powerful torvosaurus

[celest pond]

I know it's a figure caption by they are completely valid as for literature goes, look at Jensens mess with Dry Mesa sauropods

[tall prawn]

can somone tell me how was the new carcharodontosaurid named

[wraith kindle]

Those are some rather lumpy dinos.

[celest pond]

I'll be back in an hour or so and will respond to that with a long explanation, I don't have time right now but I will respond as soon as possible

[stable sun]

Yeah but the paper text says it is Megalosauridae indet.

There's no reason to think that premax is Strepto tbh

And going by the recent Tameryraptor phylogeny, Streptospondylus isn't necessarily a Megalosaurid

[outer tusk]

by being named

[kindred night]

Hey paleobiologogist here. The fossil record is unreliable unless it's mollusks or trilobites and relative abundance in an ecosystem should not be taken into account from it. These papers which I have read much to your chagrin are flawed in this aspect.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[outer tusk]

omg another Boondocks reference

[fluid inlet]

https://x.com/itsultraalpha/status/1875455375933403335?s=46

Primal Conflict (@itsultraalpha) on X

How Torvosaurus fans feel after sauroMIDanax got invalidated (and a deadbeat father to allosaurus)

X · Jan 4, 2025, 8:13 AM

I’d just have to say all are awesome by the way Torvosaurus, Allosaurus and Ceratosaurus.

[frosty cedar]

Jurassic is awesome in general, it needs to have more eyes on it in general.

[warped peak]

Sauro casually getting bigger after the invalidation:

[frosty cedar]

Because it's always Hell Creek, Hell Creek and Hell Creek. And Hell Creek.

[fluid inlet]

Yeah I agree, it’s not fun seeing one formation getting thrown in the spotlight all the time.

[frosty cedar]

Wdym exactly? Sauro is now "Allosaurus" and it's estimates are getting bigger?

[wraith kindle]

Well, split into Allosaurus and an unknown possible diplodocid (I don't know if confirmed or suspected).

[fluid inlet]

It isn’t, at least last I recall it’s allosaurus Anax now and it got downsized a good bit.

[frosty cedar]

I just want Morrison bruh. And Kem-Kem along with Dinosaur park from Canada, with albertosaurus and such.

[wraith kindle]

I want Burgess Shale.

[fluid inlet]

I’ll take Morrison or Bahariya

[frosty cedar]

Alright, got it.

[warped peak]

(It did not get downsized)

[frosty cedar]

Kem-Kem sure doesn't have enough exposure as something that's considered to be one of the most dangerous ecosystems in history of Earth.

[polar scroll]

how you know this is true or false?

[fluid inlet]

Random Dino is a pretty reliable source, not saying everything he say is fact but he’s who i think most refer to in here.

[frosty cedar]

Usually documentaries about prehistoric life tend to focus too much on North America, simply because of the presence of many flagship creatures. However, I would like something dedicated entirely to one specific region other than that. Like What killed Australia's giants?. It's not entirely what I want, but as the same concept. Documentary with the focus on one specific formation only.

[ionic crescent]

It got bigger, up to 11.7 m

[celest pond]

Did I say that they are completely reliable? In any case, I said that unlike the other statement, this one at least had support in the literature. If you don't agree with those studies, that's fine with me, and you could even write a refutation. The fact is that in the entire Morrison Formation, Allosaurus fossils are more abundant, in the order of 170 Allosaurus individuals for 15 Torvosaurus, but the fact is that in the quarries where the two have been found, Allosaurus is still more abundant, in those where the two have not been found, Torvo was the only vertebrate in the quarry, but in the area of ​​these quarries (Louise), such as Como Bluff, Allosaurus is still more abundant. This fact seems to contradict a priori that the rarity of Torvo with respect to Allo is due to a conservation bias due to the type of habitat, since both are found cohabiting in the same areas and quarries. If someone thinks otherwise, they should prove it. As for the biozones of the classic interpretation of the Morrison, Torvo is more abundant in the middle of the formation and is, for now, completely absent from zone 6. This is also difficult to explain by some conservation bias, since other taxa remain present up to this zone.

[winter marsh]

Ceratosaurus wasn't even mentioned in the post, offense taken

[warped peak]

It went up to 6.5 Tons briefly, then brought back to about 4.5-5 Tons

Random thought; Both of these guys coexisted in around the same area of Hell Creek

[stable sun]

do people realize that this makes Allosaurus itself Torvosaurus-sized

[frosty cedar]

What's this weird legless axolotl thing called?

[warped peak]

Habrosaurus, they're part of a modern family

He's about 5 feet long

[frosty cedar]

Oh, it seems to have outlived the extinction for a couple of millions of years. Pretty neat.

[warped peak]

The Cretaceous had the best shark ecosystem in history IMO

[fluid inlet]

How true is that sharks didn’t really reach full potential until after the extinction of dunkleosteus

[winter marsh]

Ginsu Sharks fr

[velvet burrow]

Same, but at the same time the Jurassic gets hard carried by Morrison, so if we talkd about the jurassic it'd be Morrison, Morrison and more Morrison

[stable sun]

Jurassic has a lot of other cool stuff too

[hallow spear]

true

[frosty cedar]

Torpedo dunkleosteus reaction:

[warped peak]

Get Cretaceous Shark'd

[velvet burrow]

I'd consume Cañadón Asfalto media though

[fluid inlet]

King Dunk

[frosty cedar]

I would like to see sth from Europe as well, like miragaia or torvo.

[warped peak]

?

[fluid inlet]

Dunk can simply not lose.

[frosty cedar]

That's one big frilled shark, Jesus Christ.

[warped peak]

Thank god it'll never be in PoT

Right?

[outer tusk]

Dinornis

[frosty cedar]

People should make more creepypasta about this rather than megalodon being alive.

[stable sun]

Asfaltovenator - Piatnitzkysaurus
Yangchuanosaurus - Leshansaurus
Allosaurus - Torvosaurus
Neovenator - Ceratosuchops
Carcharodontosaurus - Spinosaurus

Megalosauroids and Allosauroids evolved at the same time, and died at the same time

[velvet burrow]

Morrison 2

[frosty cedar]

chonk

[outer tusk]

agreed ( art by Mcraelodon )

[fluid inlet]

Even with the nerf dunk still goated

[outer tusk]

it's still a very large animal even with the "nerf"

[warped peak]

Bungartius wins for being objectively more aesthetically pleasing

[frosty cedar]

He thick now, even better.

[velvet burrow]

Chonkleosteus

What's the ecology of that dunk, would it be more like a grouper than an active pelagic shark?

[fluid inlet]

Bink

[frosty cedar]

Probably a grouper.

[outer tusk]

pleagic shark

[warped peak]

Attack Helicopter

[frosty cedar]

Maybe Boeing AH-64 Apache, to be exact?

[scenic flame]

I do not think cohabitation in those areas with allosaurus really makes it conclusive, Torvosaurus sicking mainly to gallery forests does not mean they cannot occasionally move into habitat they're not adapted to/generally don't live in, imo I think relying on the fossil record for abundance and distribution is reliable at all, otherwise Tyrannosaurus is making up an impossibly large portion of hell creek's mega fauna

[stable sun]

Puertasaurus is the second known largest sauropod

[frosty cedar]

I imagine dunkleosteus deploying heat seeking missiles to obliterate it's prey.

[warped peak]

It's important to remember that at this point, Pterygotus and similar Eurypterids were doing pretty decent in the sea-floor ambusher niche, so something like Dunkleosteus would definitely be taking advantage of its swimming mobility

[scenic flame]

because then if we're using the fossil record as the sole or even primary source of how many animals are in and ecosystem, we would have to draw some ecologically impossible conclusions in terms of faunal make-up of formations

[drifting condor]

Do we know how fast stegosaurus could swing it's tail

[scenic flame]

not stegosaurus, but I assume this may still be relevant
MIRAGAIA TAIL BIOMECHANICS AND DEFENCES. EVALUATION OF THE TAIL MOBILITY AND RESISTANCE TO LOADINGS AND COLLISIONS.
https://riviste.unimi.it/index.php/RIPS/article/view/21688

[frosty cedar]

Miragaia is peak.

[scenic flame]

case and point
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Pie-chart-of-the-time-averaged-census-for-largebodied-dinosaurs-from-the-entire-Hell_fig8_49968093

[hallow spear]

It is estimated

[frosty cedar]

I would like to see concavenator, I think it has no media presence whatsoever.

[outer tusk]

JW:

[stable sun]

Concavenator is early Cretaceous

[winter marsh]

Ginsu sharks are cool

[warped peak]

Could Tanystropheus theoretically go bipedal/tripedal? Those are hella beefy legs

[frosty cedar]

And dinos from Spain in general.

[winter marsh]

Maybe but I dont see a reason why since its neck already does all the job. Kind of like sea lions?

[warped peak]

What is a ginsu shark?

[hallow spear]

Theoretically yes

[frosty cedar]

Oh yeah, my bad.

[harsh cypress]

i'd imagine it could at least rear up, maybe hop a bit

[velvet burrow]

Cretoxyrhina

[harsh cypress]

Yoink

[frosty cedar]

I mean, Jurassic World Evolution 2 has it, but that's about it, really.
And it also was in Fallen Kingdom.... as a statue.

[warped peak]

Insert Prehistoric Planet Carno seen, but with Tany

[honest cobalt]

Things with extremely long necks compared to the rest of the body are always so uncanny to me

[runic rover]

Kleinwelka Saurier Park!! ❤️❤️❤️

[warped peak]

Gonna be honest I never really liked Tanystropheus

However the idea of it Rearing up fully is so stupid I now like it

[outer tusk]

many games,toys also have it

[stable sun]

Xinjiangtitan skeletal by Gunnar Bivens jumpscare

[velvet burrow]

Concavenator is from early cretaceous and while not turbopopular it does have some presence

[honest cobalt]

Yeah! These types of sauropods are uncanny

[harsh cypress]

First time i saw miragaia I laughed at it for like 5 minutes lmao

stego cosplaying as a sauropod

[runic rover]

Conca is definitively quite popular, Neovenator on the other side...

[compact leaf]

do you know off the top of your head how tall bricks xinjiang is?

[stable sun]

No

[honest cobalt]

It really is! Shhh we won’t tell it

[velvet burrow]

I mean it's one of the most (only) unique carcs out there

If you want something jurassic that actually has 0 media presence even though it should, see Eoabelisaurus

[rancid dove]

majungasaurus ?

[scenic flame]

deff not

[outer tusk]

I didn't know GSP also made majungasaurus 5 tonnes

[warped peak]

It's also looking like that silhouette is a bad one sadly

[winter marsh]

OH, ginsu shark is another name for Cretoxyrhiza iirc

[celest pond]

So, ignoring the remains from Tendaguru and Europe that have not been formally referred to the genus Torvosaurus, and sticking to those that we can say with certainty are or have been included in studies, you are left with the specimens from Dry Mesa, Edmarka, Elvis, the Utah pubis, and gurneyi. Starting with gurneyi, the holotype Ml 1100 was estimated to be between 9.6m and 10m in the description by Hendrickx and Mateus in 2015. As for the femur from Portugal, it is incomplete and estimates vary greatly depending on the taxon they are based on. So focusing on the Morrison specimens, you take into account the cranial elements of Dry Mesa, however these elements, like the maxilla, are slightly smaller than the holotype of gurneyi, so a more concrete estimate of these specimens would be around 9.5m, this is consistent with the MNI of the quarry, which is 3 individuals, it is also more consistent with the morphology of Gurneyi and Elvis (since the Dry Mesa maxilla is incomplete) and suggests that the lacrimal that was believed to be from the smallest specimen could actually belong to one of the 2 large ones. This is also consistent with the appendicular elements found in the quarry, since one of the fibulae has EFS, indicating that it was an old adult that had finished growing, so although they are apparently short elements in length they undoubtedly belonged to an adult. As for Edmarka, the jugal is slightly larger than the Dry Mesa equivalent by about 5%, but quite a bit more gracile, so the individual would have been just over 10m, this is also supported by the pubic size of 79cm compared to Brontoraptor and the caudal vertebra of 14cm which is smaller than the caudals of Allosaurus 14.5cm 15cm 18cm and 20cm, and these caudals belong to Allosaurus specimens between 10.5 and 11m. The ribs of Louise's Edmarka are also around the same size as those of an Allosaurus specimen from Garden Park as mentioned in the description of E. rex.

[frosty cedar]

True as well.

[warped peak]

... but why?

It's a shark. It's not even got the most knife shaped teeth of a Cretaceous shark

[winter marsh]

Idk, it's just a name they gave to it, dont ask me why

[runic rover]

The problem of concas are 2:

1. European
2. small

If you think about it the only popular European mesozoic creatures are Hatzegopteryx, why? Because it's the biggest Azdarchid.

[frosty cedar]

What's this? The rumored biggest abelisaurid compared to rex?

[winter marsh]

Baryonyx

[frosty cedar]

Well I mean stegosaurus also lived in Europe? Portugal, for example? Allosaurus as well, no?

[rancid dove]

I want a sloth 3 or 4 shark to hunt big prey

[celest pond]

@stable sun I can't post the second part of the message with more photos of the individuals, tried twice but server is now not allowing me to put anything so if want more info and photos of the specimens reach me through DM

[outer tusk]

Turkana Grits Giant Abelisaur

[harsh cypress]

Science names (and deciding what name is Valid) can get Very silly

[stable sun]

Okay

1. Wrong, the Tendaguru remains have been referred to Torvosaurus https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S089598111930505X
2. Strangely I remember the maxilla of gurneyi being comparable to that of the 10.5-11 m Dry Mesa individual
3. The complete femur is estimated to be 111 cm, so 11.1 m
4. Okay, so the maxilla is actually smaller than in gurneyi? That makes gurneyi larger again. Edmarka has a jugal only 5% larger than the Dry Mesa skull specimen despite being ~11.5 m. The skeletal by paleojoe also puts the specimen at 10.4 m.
5. The pubis of Edmarka most likely doesn't belong to it. It doesn't resemble any known pubis bones of Torvosaurus. The caudal is 14 cm which isn't much until you realize that this was the shortest anterior caudal in the series as shown by Brontoraptor. Brontoraptor has a 10.5 cm caudal 1, but all the other caudals are larger. Caudal 3 of Edmarka was likely ~16 cm based on Brontoraptor. The skeletal by randomdinos also puts Edmarka at 11.5 m.

[stable sun]

Ok

[errant juniper]

does anyone know if hibberoptorous actually had a stinger? or was it for a diffrent use.

[velvet burrow]

And Iguanodon
And Allosaurus
And Baryonyx
And Torvosaurus
And Stegosaurus
And Dacentrurus (Miragaia)
And Metriacanthosaurus
And Pyroraptor
And Pliosaurus
And

[celest pond]

Gurneyi is bigger than Dry Mesa, there's only one caudal for Edmarka, the other are hypothesized to be bigger but as shown in other tails they only vary 0,5 cm in length at much, and yes I agree the first and biggest pubis referred to Edmarka is not megalosaurid, but rather some kind of sauropod, but in Brontoraptor description another 2 smaller pubis where referred to it. I can't post long messages with links because this servers antispam bot would ban me again, it happened before... so I prefer to continue in DM.

[harsh cypress]

the pointy bit on the end? It's called a telson! as far as i can tell it dragged it around through the sand and stuff so im gonna guess not

[errant juniper]

oo

[stable sun]

I already dmed u

[frosty cedar]

Compsognathus.

[velvet burrow]

Oh yeah Solnhofen
Compsognathus, Archaeopteryx, Rhamphorhynchus, Pterodactylus

Plateosaurus

[frosty cedar]

Ichthyosaurus has remains from Europe.

[scenic flame]

conca is very popular
iguanodon, megalosaurus, rhamph

[quasi token]

also liopleurodon, opthalmosaurus, mosasaurus, and more

it's not north america but a lot of european fossils are still pretty popular

[stable sun]

Edmarka caudals and scapulacoracoid are over 30% larger than in Brontoraptor, making it have an estimated femur length of 110 cm

[spice snow]

Silly

[stable sun]

oh yeah and Edmarka also has an estimated femur circumference of 50 cm, larger than in any A. anax specimen, any Mapusaurus specimen, Meraxes, Acrocanthosaurus, Taurovenator and Chilantaisaurus

[hallow spear]

Anax preserves no femora from the holotype