paleontology

[woeful falcon]

Agree to disagree but, I find the distortion or stretching of truths for clicks, continuing the trend of dumbed down and not rightfully accurate information to the general public, to not be a positive thing. Harmful? Maybe not. But not positive.

That's what it is when you boil it down, it's for clicks. It could have just said "dinosaur" and people wouldn't have been confused or anything. You spice it up by mentioning T. rex

[tough parcel]

Yea, you spice it up by mentioning T. rex. The more clicks, the more people read it and get educated

[frail robin]

Technically everything is related to T.Rex. Let's start using T.Rex as a term for everything. "Massive T.Rex cousin fish discovered in the coast of Egypt", "Star related to T.Rex found to be many times bigger than its dinosaur cousin", "Building made by atoms that were also present in T.Rex"

[covert lintel]

distant cousin of t. rex eats a cheese

[woeful falcon]

I mean if they clicked a headline that doesn't even mention T. rex and name drops Abelisaurid I would say they're already in

[frail robin]

"Distant cousin of T.Rex; rock found in a shoe"

[tough parcel]

That's not the point. It's not meant to appeal to people that are "already in", as I said, it's meant for the general public who have consistently proven to not know anything beyond T. rex and maybe some others

[sullen cairn]

alternatively we have "indeterminate relatives of noasaurids existed more than we knew before"

sad as it may be i don't think "betasuchus cousin" rolls off the tongue that well

betasuchus is still abelisauroid thingy right

[woeful falcon]

You misunderstand me. Who in the general public is clicking something that reads "Fossils of Two New Abelisaurid Dinosaurs Uncovered in Morocco"

No one who isn't already in

[covert lintel]

carnotaurus isn't the Most well known theropod, but it's a creature that exists and is sort of known, and sounds cool, so i think it coulda worked

[tough parcel]

Tbh who in the general public reads news anymore 😔

[woeful falcon]

True

[sullen cairn]

nobody's gonna be confused by calling them rex cousins if that's the case though

[frail robin]

Yeah, but that is a bandaid solution. By comparing everything to T.Rex you just end up keeping the old image that it has

[covert lintel]

true but they will be mildly annoyed

[tough parcel]

I see no reason that's bad, T. rex the goat, T. rex the giga-chad, T. rex my lover

[woeful falcon]

And thus we have this discussion

[sullen cairn]

i wouldn't say it's harmful in this case it's just weird that they have the ostensibly more sensational title as a subtext

[frail robin]

How about "Speed demon dinosaurs with tiny arms found in Morocco". You don't need to focus on the family, just a feature that the animal had

[sullen cairn]

we have one leg bone each so we can't really call them speed demons

[woeful falcon]

Like I said, not harmful. But not really a positive either. And the problem isn't even mentioning T. rex, its using the word cousin here

[keen forum]

the isuse with that is that its so much like a hippopotamidae, it's range seems to sit a bit closer to that of the entelodonts and with what we have of it so far the body plan would be a lot closer to them as well, it's the reason why most ppl that recon andrew now adays use a more entelodont like body

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14772019.2023.2189436?journalCode=tjsp20
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2740860/

[tough parcel]

But abelisaurs weren't all speed demons lol, that's specifically a Carnotaurus feature (even then, the lower legs for Carno aren't known so)

[sullen cairn]

i'd like to wish all everyone a very please stop comparing every indeterminate abelisaurid with an incredibly derived brachyrostran

[tough parcel]

No :)

[sullen cairn]

[keen forum]

there papers that go a lot more in depth about this as well and have some pretty soild reasonings

[sullen cairn]

what pisses me off more about this paper is that it's paywalled so i can't even find the catalogue number of one of the specimens

[woeful falcon]

Mind you I acknowledge the general public isn't privy to this sort of thing, and can be, well, dumb

But I prefer utilizing clickbait in a way that isn't....well, distorting the reality and treating them like they're not dumb. You can name drop rex in ways that aren't "long neck cousin of t rex was 40 tons!"

[sullen cairn]

in this case they're contemporary at least
actually why didn't they just use that

[woeful falcon]

Just spend money!

[sullen cairn]

i am once again forced to wait for mortimer to update theropod database

[keen forum]

also going by more recent trees/clafogram Andrew is still pretty primitive and far from the more hippo shaped creatures as well

[white matrix]

Does anyone know the current estimated biteforce of T-Rex in PSI?

[bright veldt]

bout 4 tons psi

It varies but that's the general idea.

[white matrix]

Alr ty, do you know how much it is in just like general numbers (like for example say 1000 etc)

[bright veldt]

4 tons is 8,818 lbs

[white matrix]

Ah ok ty, I just wanted to know so I have a reference biteforce to make one for a speculative dinosaur I’m working on xD

[bright veldt]

@pearl brook

[pearl brook]

ah, pog, look at the dude

[keen forum]

it's about 6tons on average iirc

[clever sable]

Don't some higher estimates put it at 12,000 PSI? Or am I thinking of something else (or maybe that's just the bite force of the huge rexes) idk though, take this with a grain of salt

[bright veldt]

They do get higher but that's the general agreement I've heard

[pearl brook]

carcharodontosaurids are such rad fellas

[keen forum]

https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/ar.24602
https://peerj.com/articles/13731/

the 4 ton bite is most def on the lower end

given that LACM a sub adult has a bite around 3.2tons

[white matrix]

So around 5 tons (which I think is like around 10,000lbs or so) should be around the average bite of a rex then correct?

[keen forum]

around 6.4tons

[white matrix]

Ah k, that’d be about 12,000lbs then right?

[elfin pulsar]

6.4 would be about 12000-13000 ye

[keen forum]

14,500psi

[white matrix]

Alr then, I have a pretty good idea of the kind of biteforce the speculative Dino I’m making will have then, ty :>

[keen forum]

12,000 psi is 5tons

[elfin pulsar]

Strong dino

[white matrix]

Ah I see

So would you say that around 11,000 PSI would be acceptable for something slightly larger than a rex that mostly just uses the jaws for crushing bone and not just actual fighting with the jaws in general (besides eating ofc) would be acceptable? Like it’s not built to be an unstoppable force in the jaw area like Rex, just enough to basically immobilise anything it’s trying to kill

[keen forum]

to crush bone normally 2-3tons of force would be just fine so something around 5-8k would be alright if ur crushing bone and this also depends on what its hunting and what kinda creature it is

[white matrix]

Basically it’s main prey sources are Muttaburasaurus and stuff around that size, however in small groups it’d take on Australotitan and the such, basically it just uses the jaws for immobilising prey and then going for the kill or dealing actual damage with its claws

[keen forum]

that is interesting cause that is like the opposite of what megaraptorans and australove his doing with its claws and jaws

[stiff osprey]

A bone crushing bite is not really what you want if something is going after sauropods, no matter how strong your bite is, sauropod bones are stronger.

[keen forum]

but i think the thing is why would it need its calws or powerful arms if the jaws are already able to take out a creatures mobility

[stiff osprey]

*giant sauropods that is;
If it's going after sauropods that aren't many times bigger than itself then a bone crushing bite is fine

[bright veldt]

The giant bite forces of tyrannosaurs likely existed to better process corpses. You don't need to inflict damage equivalent to getting hit by a train to effectively kill prey.

[compact leaf]

the best strategy for going after big sauropods is to not (just go after the babies and juveniles they're a lot easier)

[keen forum]

when most of ur prey is heavily armored and massive you'll need that bite and funny enough we know that rex is avoiding bone on the prey it eats

[white matrix]

Oh yeah ofc, when it comes to sauropods this Dino mainly used its claws to dig into its flesh and wait for it to bleed to death or exhaust it to the point of the sauropod collapsing and then going in for the kill with the bite

[bright veldt]

The only armored prey of tyrannosaurus was ankylosaurus, and even then we know that ankylosaur armor wasn't built to straight up tank giant theropod bite forces, let alone rex's

[stiff osprey]

To be fair that test was done on Borealopelta armor, which is very different from Ankylosaurus armor. And I think they gave the Acro a 4 ton bite force, which is on the lower end of what rex can do (and much stronger than a real Acrocanthosaurus)

[keen forum]

anklyosaurus, trike, toro, and a nodosaur are all armored then you have a giant in edmonto and down south alamo

[white matrix]

Also it rarely actually attacked Australotitan due to the the fact that the Dino species im making was fairly rare and didn’t come into contact with each other much until the mating season, basically if there just happened to be a group of said dino and an Australotitan around they’d consider taking it on if food was scarce at the time

[keen forum]

yeaaaah, when the acro bites as hard as a rex XD also it also took 2 shots to break that armor fully as well on a part of the armor that wasn't moving

[compact leaf]

I like to think that for denversaurus to survive in hell creek it was just lurking around in bushes waiting for predators to trip over it and murdering their shins then scuttling off

[white matrix]

Either way I’d say a 9500-11000 PSI bite would work for it’s primary job of immobilising prey then right?

[compact leaf]

yeah that's plenty

[white matrix]

Alr then thanks, while this thing I’m making is slightly larger than a rex it mainly used its claws for killing stuff and the bite was literally just for immobilising stuff, so it wouldn’t have too strong of a bite

The main idea of this thing is if a certain group of Megaraptorids evolved into a similar niche to the likes of Rex, except instead of just using its jaws for everything it uses its jaws for making sure prey couldn’t get away and using its claws for actually killing stuff, basically cross a rex and Megaraptorid sorta

[keen forum]

idk why but dryptosaurus just flashed into my head hard

[clever sable]

The bite of the mechanical head is like 3x stronger than the actual bite force of acro iirc

[keen forum]

yeah acro's bite is about 1.7tons that machine had about 4+

[white matrix]

Here’s the actual dino I’m making if your wondering what it looked like

[keen forum]

that is massive

[white matrix]

Indeed, he’s a big boi

[compact leaf]

if that's 12m tall it's taller than a fair chunk of sauropods that ain't slightly bigger than rex

[keen forum]

how does this live with the sauropod and mud at that size?

[white matrix]

Isn’t Rex about 12m itself?

[compact leaf]

12 feet tall at the hip not 12 meters

[keen forum]

rex also had a lot of prey and wasn't 12m tall

[clever sable]

12.4 meters long for Scotty

It was like 3-4 meters tall iirc

[white matrix]

oh..

[keen forum]

if you want a more large body look for a megaraptoran try using the big neo like siats

[white matrix]

I’ve made a grave mistake… I thought rex was like 12m tall ._.

[clever sable]

It just use carch, that guy was like.... Tall

[clever sable]

Well, not carch, maybe say it's like a carcharadontosaurid as those guys are generally the tallest? Idk

[white matrix]

God damnit I thought i was actually being smart with this thing xD

Uhh… I’m gonna make a slight size change and say it’s like 6m tall instead.. if that even works now..

[compact leaf]

your length is fine for bigger than rex you just need to make it shorter, at 12m tall I'm pretty sure it's taller than australotitan, rex is around 3-4m tall at the hips I'd stay close to that

[clever sable]

I do like the design of it though

[keen forum]

here these guys should help they are large body predators that had a decent sized head and long arms

[white matrix]

jesus christ what have I done

[clever sable]

That's reasonable for a 14-15 meter long creature I think

[keen forum]

if your hunting something like mud you don't need to be that tall or that strong

[white matrix]

Honestly I’ll just get rid of the person and make it about double the hight it was compared it and redo the size chart thingy

Actually tbh I might try and make it slightly shorter than rex but keep the length it has rn

[keen forum]

another thing if your hunting a sauropod you want to be able to reach under the tail as well

kinda a rule of thumb for sauropod hunters

[white matrix]

So rex is about 4-5ish metres tall right?

[compact leaf]

3-4

[keen forum]

3-4m, damn beat me to it cuttle

[white matrix]

Alr so my guess is the average Rex is around 3.5ish metres tall, I’ll make this guy around 2.8-3.4 metres tall

[keen forum]

how tall is ur sauropod?

[white matrix]

Australotitan? Lemme go check rq

Australo is about 6.5m tall at the hip (atleast that’s what google tells me)

[compact leaf]

base of the tail is the best place to attack a sauropod to do damage but it would still be very dangerous to go anywhere near there in a megasauropod, most of the large sauropods were probably more or less off the menu as healthy adults, there would be plenty of juveniles and babies (a much much easier target) to hunt though which is how the population would likely stay sustainable

[gaunt copper]

Is this game expected to have night vision in the future?

[white matrix]

So if Australo is abt 6.5m tall at the hip then a 3ish metre tall dino should be a decent size to hunt Australo right?

[compact leaf]

I want to say australo is shorter than that at the hip, if memory serves it should be around 9m tall total

[white matrix]

Oh alr, so 2.5ish metres tall should work fine then?

[compact leaf]

yeah that works fine, a little taller at like 3m won't be an issue though especially with how long it is

[white matrix]

Hmm.. I’d say 2.6-2.9 metres tall is a good average size range for this thing then

[keen forum]

so from looking at its size form a size chart you don't need to be that big the sub adult siats fits perfectly

you could go just a lil bit smaller than this as well and still be okay

[tough parcel]

That seems a bit silly at a smaller size

Sure it can reach, but also one anything from the sauropod and the dude's crippled for life

[white matrix]

Wait so I’m a bit confused.. is 2.6ish metres bad or is it an ok size?

[keen forum]

stares at allo and yang and the carchs

[tough parcel]

Allo has smaller prey items proportionately than that, as do the others you mentioned

[keen forum]

that would be okay it doesn''t need to be rex size

[white matrix]

Alr then, perfect, 2.6ish metres it is then

[compact leaf]

plenty of juvenile sauropods to go after, they didn't need to go after the adults of big species and probably wouldn't unless they absolutely needed to

[white matrix]

Oh yeah under normal circumstances they wouldn’t, they’d only hunt adult Australos if multiple of the spec dino happened to be in the area and food was scarce, which was pretty rare

[keen forum]

looking at the fact that allo has attacked apatos and carchs going for near adult titanosaurs, yang has a prey item with a lighter frame and that size is also a plus cause its right outsider that range of being hit by the legs and able to go under the tail

[tough parcel]

Which Allo and which Apato 😎

[compact leaf]

going under the tail absolutely still has them in range of the legs, sauropods weren't slouches when it came to kicking and pivoting

there's also the fact that if anything goes in from within range of the tail it's getting slapped into next year

[pearl briar]

should i update my maip size info?

[sullen cairn]

3.5t might be a tad high but for a broad estimate seems good

[compact leaf]

also lowercase the beginning of macrothorax, species names never start in a capital

[keen forum]

your mom and this apato about that sized

[keen forum]

seems alright to me

[tough parcel]

The Allosaurus takes what it wants (It will logically kill this animal)

[compact leaf]

unless there's info I'm missing on this one in particular fossils like that don't show that it was attacked while it was alive though, unless there's healing in which case it lived anyway

[keen forum]

why is the BRONTO behind the apato falcon

[compact leaf]

when I say immune to attack I'm also more talking about sauropods a good margin bigger than apato

[bright veldt]

Are these healed or no?

[tough parcel]

That's how brick put them so suffer

[keen forum]

judging there that deep and from a allosaur no they aren't if a allosaurus is doing that to bone the cut is pretty bad you won't be walking that off

[tough parcel]

I could tbh

[keen forum]

putting the brontosaur that was with sauro with allo

[tough parcel]

:)

[bright veldt]

I mean my logic is that it could've easily been from scavenging then? If an adult sauropod dies the entire local ecosystem is visiting it at some point

[white matrix]

So.. @keen forum this should work now right?

[keen forum]

https://tenor.com/view/simpsons-angry-furious-choking-choke-gif-9806984

[sullen cairn]

you're giving me flashbacks to that stupid scavenger paper

[keen forum]

you also have a animal that is willing to attack those creatures as well and the bone beds of all the allosaurs that ate each other form what seems like a lake waiting for sauropods or something to come by. Allosaurus seems to have been one of the big predators for those sauropods and its slow growth may further link that as well

[keen forum]

i would make it 2.5m at the hip not the top of the head

[white matrix]

So wouldn’t that be about 3 metres tall in total then?

[keen forum]

around it depending on the animals build and how tall the neck is

[white matrix]

I’d say 2.5m tall at the hip and 3.2m in total would work

[bright veldt]

I'm sorry this is just a load of words to me from how worded it XD. I personally doubt allosaurus in particular would've been a major predator of adult sauropods, especially when torvosaurus is more built to do so.

Not that it wouldn't happen, allosaurus seemed to be everywhere in the morrison and ate basically anything, but just saying.

[compact leaf]

adults of the smaller sauropods, sure that makes sense, but healthy adults of the largest sauropods around like brachiosaurus and supersaurus wouldn't be on the menu

[bright veldt]

Of course. They're some of the largest animals period

[keen forum]

torvo is funny enough more suited for hunting Thyreophorans and smaller sauropods also when a lot of those smaller sauropods went and the environment changed it was allo who lived through that, more times than not the sauropod specialist has a slower growth stage, allo, carchs, tarbo and so on all hunted sauropods and shared a similar growth cycle for that

[bright veldt]

I mainly bring up torvosaurus cause it has more of the adaptations you'd expect from something that routinely wrestled large prey, on top of its place as the top predator meaning that other predators like allosaurus likely wouldn't risk hunting such large and dangerous prey if there's a chance a competitor was just going to steal it after.

[keen forum]

torvo's whole body play is i'm going to over power you and end you in one bite not a long drawn out hunt

the only main large sauropod i see torvo tackling would be diplo who is oddly skinny and light for a sauropod but minus that its gonna have a hard time with creatures like apa and co

[tough parcel]

Torvosaurus...the apex predator of the Morrison...

[compact leaf]

falcon what have you done

[keen forum]

ah yes thats the way he'll over power the sauropod

[tough parcel]

Wait wait

[compact leaf]

falcon if you mess with any brachi skeletals so help me

[bright veldt]

There's some holes in this. Growth rate has nothing to do with hunting said prey? It has to do with the local environment. Torvosaurus went extinct due to the aridity of the Morrison and the change of environment that followed. Said growth rates also aren't universal across large carcharodontosaurs. Acrocanthosaurus says hi.

[keen forum]

no growth stage has everything to do with prey

[tough parcel]

(I swear I'll maybe contribute after this)

The Xenosmilus!!!

[keen forum]

look at rex, his prey list or hadrosaurs they all get big fast and rex growth explodes to keep up with them most of the animals in hell creek get big fast

[sullen cairn]

most normal pre-publication wiehenvenator estimate

[bright veldt]

Allosaurus's slower growth rate has to do with the fact that by their hardy nature they often tolerated long periods with low resource availability, and thus periods of low growth. I don't know how that connects with sauropod hunting.

[keen forum]

stares oh no Random is here

[stiff osprey]

It's not very specialized for it, but I'm sure Allosaurus was doing a lot of sauropod hunting given that like 80% of the morrison food pyramid by mass is sauropods lmao

[bright veldt]

Fair

[compact leaf]

juvenile sauropods would be a good steady food source for pretty much any level of the morrison food pyramid

[keen forum]

the smaller creatures would go almost a year off that

[compact leaf]

as they grow there's a new predator to go after them at different sizes, and the adults of the bigger species don't have to worry abut being hunted so they just keep pumping out babies

[stiff osprey]

As for sauropods being imune to attack, I don't think there is such a thing as being too big to take down (there are a few formations where huge sauropods coexist with like a 4.5m theropod that would never have a hope of scratching them, but that's just an incomplete fossil record moment). But the bigger you are, the more likely it is that predators will go after some baby instead of you

[keen forum]

not until the horde of allos pop up and attck the adults

[bright veldt]

To continue off this, this is also a trend seen in said carcharodontosaurs with slow growth. Giganotosaurus, Mapusaurus, and Meraxes all lived in arid deserts. Once again, areas with long periods of poor resource availability.

[astral kelp]

Wasn’t carcharodontosaurid growth linear?

[stiff osprey]

Those Morrison drought quarries that have like 40-60 Allosaurus and a handful of other bones are probably situations where anything else that tried to get to the water was being eaten alive

[compact leaf]

that or there's some migratory behavior going on and not much else stayed around for the drought, either way going near a water source with that many allosaurus around it would be a not great idea

[little mauve]

Camarasaurus was the most common Morrison sauropod and there is some evidence that they were migratory I believe

[keen forum]

and also matching the growth rate of the prey they prefer as well

[compact leaf]

I'd be willing to bet a lot of morrison sauropods were migratory but locale could have a lot to do with it too, the morrison was huge and in some places a lot less harsh

[bright veldt]

what does that have to do with anything

[stiff osprey]

at least one species of Morrison sauropod (we don't know which one 😔) is known to have migrated literally from one side of the continental US to the other

[bright veldt]

Also, not really true? At least with the sauropods I'm familiar with. We have adult camarasaurus that are as young as 17

[stiff osprey]

Allo is skeletally mature around 18 to 22, which is a little shorter than say, Diplodocus takes at 24

[keen forum]

predators tend to match that growth curve

[stiff osprey]

Weirdly though, the same age as T.rex

[keen forum]

stares at megalosaurs hitting 7m at age 7

[bright veldt]

again, why and how is it relevant information? Correlation vs causation. How are these connected?

[compact leaf]

it always weirds me out how little time rex spent as a skeletally mature adult

[bright veldt]

Hadrosaurs grew extremely quickly due to predation pressures but I don't see tyrannosaurs following such patterns.

[keen forum]

causation, in that the predators are alost always at arms race with it's prey in size and or in growth it's how you compete

[stiff osprey]

Come to think of it I wonder if megalosaurs became rarer over the end of the jurassic not because they literally couldn't stand the heat/dryness, but because their absurd growth rates meant they required far more food than allosaurs and more arid environments just didn't have that much prey

[keen forum]

by growing as fast as possible to still be able to hunt said hadrosaurs

[clever sable]

The debate of "did carcharadontosaurids and such hunt huge healthy adult sauropods or did they stick to smaller/sub adult sauropods" is definitely one of the more interesting Paleo debates imo

[bright veldt]

I'm sorry hadrosaurs got to breeding age in 3-5 years. That is in no way similar to tyrannosaurs.

[keen forum]

also those said hadrosaurs grew big as well

[keen forum]

jane is not to far off at around wat 12? iirc

[bright veldt]

???

[stiff osprey]

Hadrosaurs and ceratopsians both outgrow their predators by a decade, which really is indicative they were not very good at fighting them off lol

[keen forum]

getting to breeding ages, rex itself reached that aroound the age of 12-13

[sullen cairn]

centrosaurines weren't that big compared to contemporary tyrannosaurids tbh

[bright veldt]

I'm sorry what you're saying isn't making sense. Also kind of breaks down the comparison you made with tarbosaurus given its main prey bases (hadrosaurs and sauropods) have extremely different life histories.

[clever sable]

Trike fans when they realize trike was likely one of the primary food sources of rex (they can't handle it being killed by a weak carni with useless arms)

[bright veldt]

That is not in any way similar as 3-5

[sullen cairn]

hadrosaurs are max size by 12-13

[clever sable]

Yes but that's not the age they are sexually mature

[sullen cairn]

yeah that's after a couple years

[clever sable]

Rex reaches sexual maturity as hadrosaurs it lived with met skeletal maturity iirc?

[sullen cairn]

yep

that's using hycaprosaurus growth rates though not sure how similar edmonto would be

[clever sable]

Also rebbachiosaurs..... How tf did those guys even succeed as much as they did

[keen forum]

tarbosaurus seems to hunt mainly sauropods ( at least from the isotope study ) and didn't hit full growth till around 50years of age again just following the growth curve of from what seems to be its predred prey item

[sullen cairn]

edmonto's 7-9 years sheesh

[compact leaf]

idk but they were doing something right because there's a lot of them with a really similar body plan

[clever sable]

The question is did it hunt huge sauropods that are like 7 times bigger than itself

[stiff osprey]

E.regalis is relatively a fairly slow grower, being still in an active growth phase at 15 years old. E.annectens grows faster despite being a larger animal (what Tyrannosaurus rex does to a mf)

[bright veldt]

"Herbivore and carnivore carbon isotopes (δ13C) values from tooth enamel imply the presence of a woodland ecosystem dominated by coniferous trees such as Araucariaceae, and are consistent with the hypothesis that large sauropods and hadrosaurids were the preferred prey of Tarbosaurus" sauropods were not the single majority

[ancient crystal]

Fans of a prey animal when someone says that prey animal was hunted:

[keen forum]

could of yes depending if the mogoltitan holds up

[compact leaf]

isotopes have shown that it varies a lot between individuals but it's also worth noting that tarbo is dealing with sauropods that are pretty small all things considered

[sullen cairn]

tfw you're two tons smaller than the only large predator on your half of the continent

[bright veldt]

Eh I don't think it makes a difference given tarbosaurus were likely social animals.

It'd be possible either way.

[compact leaf]

do we have confirmation that tarbo was social? if we do I missed something big apparently

[clever sable]

Ngl I don't see any theropod primarily surviving off or primarily hunting something that's 7-8 times the size, if I had to give a guess to the sauropods that were preyed in by theropods I would say sauropods in the 20-30 tonne range

[bright veldt]

It's not described yet I think but there's a bonebed with multiple individuals being found together.

[stiff osprey]

Currie has been claiming Tarbosaurus hunted in packs for 20 years now, he's failed to provide any evidence of this though. Not a single photo

[sullen cairn]

is this still good for mongolian titan estimates

[compact leaf]

it's hard to give an estimate to the mongolian titan other than 'big' considering we only have a footprint

[bright veldt]

footprints are inconsistent af ye

[clever sable]

What's the big guy? Is the big guy argent? I'm guessing the small guy is MT

[stiff osprey]

that does show the wide range of estimates, considering one of those alamos weighs like 25 t and the other 60

[sullen cairn]

it's just alamosaurus scaled up

[clever sable]

Those people who claim 10 tonne giga was average because we have lots of large footprints:

[sullen cairn]

point is we don't have a good idea how big it actually was

[bright veldt]

Eh you get a giga that big from the dentary but....it's the dentary.

[sullen cairn]

ichnotaxa moment

[compact leaf]

I'm waiting for someone to sort out alamo and figure out if material really does need to be split from it

[clever sable]

I Don't think 10+ tonnes is unreasonable but until we have more complete specimens it's safer to call rex the largest terrestrial carnivore

[stiff osprey]

I do like the idea of a monster sized Giganotosaurus, but i'd rather keep it as fiction or at least spec evo than claim an actual 15-20 tonne theropod based on the third or fourth worst possible form of scaling

[clever sable]

What's the worst way of scaling? I gotta go with footprint scaling tbh

[sullen cairn]

distal metatarsal ii fragment shaft width crown scaling

[stiff osprey]

It is not, that would be integument scaling

Tyrannosaurus is the size of a regular lizard while Triceratops is several times larger than a sauropod

[clever sable]

I'm stupid, inform me on what that is

[keen forum]

i'll give you that one yeah isotopes do change from creature to creature, also compared to its size most of the sauropods are about double its weight even when small

[compact leaf]

isolated sauropod fragment with no other remains from the genus and uncertain taxonomy is up there with the worst ones too

[sullen cairn]

scales n stuff

[stiff osprey]

I'd rank integument scaling, bite mark scaling, tooth scaling, and then footprint scaling

[clever sable]

Wait..... Scaling something based on the size of the scales is an actual method.......

[stiff osprey]

Can't say i've ever seen someone integument scale. I have seen bite mark scaling though

[sullen cairn]

there's some huge cerato out there from bite mark scaling i think

[clever sable]

Well, tooth scaling for some things like sharks isn't always bad but for other things it's horrible

[compact leaf]

not small by animal standards but still small by sauropod standards

[keen forum]

that would depended on the sauropod but a 30-40 ton sauropod would be a perfect size prey item for say something like carch and wouldn't need too many theropods to take down 3-4 could possibly do that

[compact leaf]

I just described like half of all titanosaurs in case anyone was wondering

[clever sable]

But do we have any evidence of mob hunting in carch let alone between most large carcharadontosaurids

[light osprey]

Is this Sauropod hunting pt.2?

[bright veldt]

Mapusaurus have been found as a group

Speaking of tarbosaurus ecology, here's something I'm curious about

[compact leaf]

electric boogaloo, yes (we've drifted from the original topic into a more general convo though)

[astral kelp]

Being in a group doesn’t equate to pack hunting afaik

[keen forum]

juat saw this in the wave of comments this i'll gove to you

[clever sable]

Hey, just gonna use the thing that people do and say "well being found together doesn't necessarily mean it was pack Hunting"

[astral kelp]

Well I don’t think it’s wrong

[bright veldt]

I feel like we're often been too harsh on social theropods and heavily underestimating them

[clever sable]

And just because mapusaurus was found in a group doesn't mean stuff like acro, or carch or giga was pack hunting

[keen forum]

i won't be surprised, we have seen a few large carchs in one bone bed with mapu its unknown if they were a family unit or was there for something else

[light osprey]

Yeah, I bet Mapusaurus was one of the cool kids with a big friend group

[bright veldt]

We have no problems saying herbivorous dinosaurs lived in herds but the minute we suggest social predators on the same layers of evidence there suddenly needs to be technicalities on if they were cooperative or not.

[stiff osprey]

When you've got a true monospecific bonebed, it's pretty hard to dismiss it as at least evidence of group living. When was the last time you saw a river flood and accidentally throw the bodies of 14 tigers together?

[keen forum]

true

[bright veldt]

Albertosaurus with its 26 individuals

[clever sable]

No, social herbivores bad, sauropods that live alone is actually the best theory imo (idc if you think sauropod herds are cool, a lone sauropod is cooler)

[bright veldt]

It's one of my favorite cases cause it sounds absurd until you actually look at the group composition of said individuals

[sullen cairn]

10m phalange scaling time

[stiff osprey]

I will say though it's 100% possible that the groups lived in a shared territory and individuals went out to hunt for themselves. It's common in crocodilians and things like hyenas

[light osprey]

I think Sauropods have enough ichnofossils to show they are gregarious

[keen forum]

i think most ppl don't think of theropods being too social is the fact that most of the time we see them together they are trying to kill each other or have done so

[compact leaf]

we do have direct evidence that some sauropods were herd animals though, some were probably solitary but there's some really interesting trackways of non solitary sauropods

[clever sable]

From what we can tell tyrannosaurus was most likely not social iirc

[clever sable]

[light osprey]

I think Tyrannosaurus also has some contrarian ichnofossils, it’s been a long time since I’ve looked into it

[keen forum]

like in deino, rex, sinraptor, and allo when we see them in some groups them seem to mess each other up badly

@stiff osprey you got a pic of that poor sinraptor?

[bright veldt]

Regardless, I do have a question/hypothesis about the ecology of said tyrannosaurs

[stiff osprey]

we have tyrannosaur group trackways but those are Campanian, so likely gorgo or daspletosaurus

[light osprey]

Ah my mistake, must’ve been conflating those

[bright veldt]

Cause compared to other tyrannosaurs, isn't the ontogeny of it not as drastic and is more akin to other theropods?

[keen forum]

iirc wasn't those babies?

[clever sable]

I think smaller carcharadontosaurids, allosaurus, albertosaurus and mebbe mebbe some large carcharadontosaurids (although assuming all large carcharadontosaurids were social is a little silly imo)

[bright veldt]

Cause if so I'm curious if young animals potentially competiting with smaller tyrannosaurids like alioramus might have something to do with that

[storm heron]

Hold up, Tarbosaurus matured at 50 years of age? isn't that what is proposed as well for Meraxes?

[keen forum]

allo may have mobbed prey at times but they also seem willing to choose violence just as fast

[keen forum]

tarbo grew slow for a tyrannosaur

[stiff osprey]

Tarbosaurus? Its ontogeny seems to have been comparatively slow, and while the juveniles are still extremely different from the adults, it's not as much as rex. Very similar to what you see in Gorgosaurus

[clever sable]

Tbh I don't think any theropods implied coordinated pack hunting, my guess is the ones that did hunt together just mobbed prey

[bright veldt]

gotcha, thx

[light osprey]

I could’ve sworn I saw gbones in here

[storm heron]

I'am aware it grew slower than Tyrannosaurs in general, just wasn't aware it took 50 years

[compact leaf]

wait where did 50 year old tarbo come from? have I been hiding under a rock or was it really living that much longer than rex?

[bright veldt]

I know that one of the ideas for tyrannosaurids having smaller arms is due to said violent sociality (although in hindsight idek if thats needed given giant heads and smaller arms is a trend in most macropredatory theropod groups)

[stiff osprey]

I suspect that the usefulness of grappling prey just drops as a theropod gets larger. You're not really gonna be wrestling anything if falling to the ground once will put you out of commission

Doesn't explain why none lost the arms tho, not even abelisaurs

[clever sable]

Acrocanthosaurus, my favorite dinosaur (although I'm not too sure on it's weight) but uhhh, we have it's tooth marks on like a 15 tonne sauropod iirc

[bright veldt]

It's weird with abelisaurs. Heavy arm reduction began as soon as the early jurassic yet the arms still stuck around.

[light osprey]

It’s time to see what they were cooking in the Campanian

[astral kelp]

We have evidence for face biting in Entelodontids right?

[compact leaf]

can someone explain this to me because this is a crazy development for me

[clever sable]

Abelisaurs are my least favorite group overall but they do hold some of my favorite dinosaurs (carno, raja, majunga) but Thanos kinda made me hate them

[stiff osprey]

50 year old tarbo is a recent abstract, I do not have it at hand but i can confirm it exists.

somewhere

[compact leaf]

very much so yes

[clever sable]

I liked abelisaurs until I learned about Thanos

[sullen cairn]

finds axis
severly oversizes it
names it thanos
rare delcourt L

[compact leaf]

do you happen to know if it was 50 when it died or was that it's age at maturity?

[stiff osprey]

I believe 50 years is an age estimate for PIN 551-1, the largest and oldest Tarbo. I don't think that's the age at which it became mature

[bright veldt]

50 is still very long lived. Tyrannosaurus rarely surpassed 30.

[compact leaf]

ok that makes more sense, thank you random

[clever sable]

Abelisaurs were a top 3 favorite for me until Thanos

[storm heron]

Oh, thanks for clearing that. I was under the impression it matured at 50 years. So it is just the estimated age of PIN 551-1.

[sullen cairn]

ignore the brazilian ones and it's fine

[light osprey]

I need a new age of paleontologists just slapping Latin prefixes to the word saurus again

[astral kelp]

I wonder how Arctodus simus got so big for a bear, comically weighing around 1200kg

[keen forum]

hey now sue and a few other rex still use their arms they did rip their muscle off the bone for it but they still used them XD

[compact leaf]

it's a shame we don't have enough specimens with a lot of sauropod species to do an age estimate, if anything was living an obscene length of time it was them

[clever sable]

Do we know how Sue died? My personal theory is that the infections in her legs basically made her like.... Not able to move well and she starved to death (just my theory)

[storm heron]

This includes Pycnonemosaurus.

[keen forum]

wait yeah your right it wasn't fully grown as well damn

[stiff osprey]

Yeah rex was really intent on using its arms for something that took massive amounts of force. Idk what they were thinking

[sullen cairn]

ignore anything from bauru group and everyone is far happier

[clever sable]

After what PoT did I wanna ignore pycno

[astral kelp]

Pycno is cool idgaf what PoT did

[clever sable]

I sure do love my bootleg carno I got instead of a creature that had the potential to be unique

[light osprey]

Yeah Osteomyelitis will do that to a fella

[bright veldt]

Living in an area with big prey allows you to get bigger. The largest arctodus are ones found farther north, where there's less good forage. afaik there's a point in body size where bears become more dependent on carnivory to subsist themselves. It might've gone hand n' hand.

[keen forum]

i dislike the carno ripoff the turned him into

[bright veldt]

everybody does

[sullen cairn]

the stratigraphy's weird because it somehow was placed in bauru in its description even though it's not straight up not from there

[stiff osprey]

1200kg arctodus would also be an animal on the peak of its body fat, we have a record of a 1030kg polar bear in those conditions

[clever sable]

Not as bad as Kai with lips tho.....

[keen forum]

i want my big chunk lad

[compact leaf]

I was hoping someone would take the bait and give me an excuse to talk about cancer ;-;

[sullen cairn]

realistically if you think about it ditching brazilian abelisaurids only sacrifices:
-bad name
-bad name
-cool thing but postcrania isn't described so who cares
-unnamed femur or something like that
-pycno
-big premaxilla

worth the loss tbh

[clever sable]

Is there an estimate for how hard Edmontosaurus could bite? Do you think it could clip off someone's arm?

[astral kelp]

Also biomechanically what’s up with Arctodus, I heard it wouldn’t be similar to modern day bears at all than there are papers debunking this

[light osprey]

Burn Brazil, return to Argentina

[stiff osprey]

Age estimates for sauropods are really really tough to make, they literally do not grow in a way that leaves the tree ring style demarcations in their bones (there are exceptions, though)

[keen forum]

i mean max size edmonto would break you in two

[bright veldt]

Arctodus has a long history of being given the most out-of-pocket ecology theories until people did a double take and realized the big bear, to everyone's surprise, had the ecology of a big bear and nothing more.

[clever sable]

I wonder if an Edmonto ever bit a rex......

[stiff osprey]

the only sauropods that do have LAGs are island dwarves, dicraeosaurs, and a handful of Morrison taxa

[sullen cairn]

last ditch maybe but it'd much rather run in the opposite direction

[compact leaf]

iirc the most reliable one we can make is with jobaria, and we can't even tell how old it was just that it was at least 50 when it died and could have been a lot older

[stiff osprey]

None of which seem to have been very old, but tbf they are either small or living in harsh environments

[sterile trail]

hmm lets see... CHOMP

[clever sable]

If only someone did do an estimate for the bite force of Edmontosaurus

[bright veldt]

It was consistent with modern grizzlies (which is fun given said grizzles likely just took over the niche that arctodus had when they arrived on the scene later on).

[stiff osprey]

Enough to kill a human? Sure. But relative to a theropod of its size I guarantee the bite of Edmonto would be extremely weak

[clever sable]

Ngl it's kinda annoying when people say andrewsarchus had the exact same ecology as a wild boar

[astral kelp]

Me when Entelodontidae wasn’t that close to suidae:

[bright veldt]

Eh entelodonts were similar in their diet to suids and andrewsarchus is closely related to them.

[keen forum]

just seems to be a long armed bear but idk what it might be doing

[clever sable]

I'm guessing they did a little more active hunting than wild boars

[compact leaf]

entelodonts being in any way similar to pigs is downright terrifying, people forget how scary pigs are

[stiff osprey]

Andrewsarchus isn't worth talking about anymore tbh, on top of the uncertainty about its looks it's not even as big as the proper entelodonts

[astral kelp]

Funny though the largest Entelodontid (paraentelodon) was likely more herbivorous/omnivorous compared to the others

[bright veldt]

Keep in mind I'm saying diet and not necesarily in hunting behavior. We know some entelodonts did prey caching.

[keen forum]

odd how they pretty much grew the same body plan

horrible animals

[stiff osprey]

My favorite entelodont is Archaeotherium, bro was leaving piles of its prey's corpses around for a later date

[clever sable]

✨ convergent evolution✨ (or something idk)

[light osprey]

So they should have a similar ecology to a Boar

[sterile trail]

hmmm

[astral kelp]

They weren’t that close.

[keen forum]

and they still have the same body plan horrible animals

[bright veldt]

convergent evolution

[keen forum]

i know i just hate that so much when it comes to them

[bright veldt]

similar ecology and diets

[clever sable]

The skull is drastically different (kinda)

[stiff osprey]

Also I don't know what's going on with the individual variation here but a handful of Archaeo specimens had stupidly wide heads. Most look normal and then bruh

[bright veldt]

sexual dimorphism or age?

[clever sable]

Could just be individual variation

[bright veldt]

I know paraentelodon had males that were much larger and more robust than females

[stiff osprey]

Both age and gender are likely involved, but we don't see this absurdity in any other entelodont

[light osprey]

Lol, as far removed from each other in Artiodactyla as possible

[bright veldt]

interesting

[astral kelp]

That one gigantic paraentelodon sp skull

[keen forum]

in certain parts yeah but the skull of a boar and a entelodon look so close minus the teeth up front

[clever sable]

it would be funny if the sails and paddle tail for spino was actually a sexually dimorphic trait

[bright veldt]

I'm still waiting for concavenator-back on carchar

[sullen cairn]

isn't that concavenator

[keen forum]

don't say carch near random he'll kill me

[astral kelp]

Although some people seem to be putting Megalochoerus at 3000kg

[bright veldt]

Every other large north african theropod is weird beyond comprehension. Carchar hasn't had it's moment yet.

[stiff osprey]

I have forgotten the crimes of carch, I hate stegosaurs now

[clever sable]

I'm still waiting for the secret 20 tonne acro specimen

[keen forum]

thank god!!!!!

[storm heron]

Well, there could be a little possibility that Meraxes had some fat storage going on that dip of its.

[sullen cairn]

rugops is pretty normal

[clever sable]

Acro best dinosaur fr fr

[astral kelp]

I’m still waiting for the Palaeoloxodon femur that’s locked in a bunker somewhere in India

[bright veldt]

To be fair, it seems that might've been something widespread across carcharodontosauridae. Some are just more expressive with it than others.

[light osprey]

(It’s never coming back)

[keen forum]

to be fair carch seems pretty normal out side maybe its sacral verts

[stiff osprey]

Rugops is weird in that it's surrounded by supersized versions of every early cretaceous dinosaur group and decided to become one of the smallest of its kind instead

[clever sable]

Acro is 10/10

[bright veldt]

Kryptops too

[astral kelp]

I have faith

[compact leaf]

I went down a rabbit hole the other day with stegosaurs, there’s some evidence for them in a lot of places during the early to mid cretaceous that doesn’t get talked about

[sterile trail]

chomnk

[clever sable]

Smol feets, move slo

[bright veldt]

Dravidosaurus moment

[light osprey]

Enjoy it while it lasts

[sterile trail]

same but for me it was the Thylacine

[storm heron]

The dip? I have seen that alleged dip in Acrocanthosaurus and Giganotosaurus, and it seems to not really be a dip as such.

[keen forum]

i don't trust that too much but it wouldn't be too out of place

[clever sable]

(well not really slow, it's like 27 km/h iirc)

[sullen cairn]

kryptops is west africa so it has an excuse

[light osprey]

I’m all here for an Early Cretaceous Thylacine

[vocal breach]

I don’t likey tail, briug

[keen forum]

giga doesn't show one cause his verts are all broken sadly

[sterile trail]

i was refering to the Tasmanian Tiger tho...

[bright veldt]

I just mean the adaptations for heavy muscle attachments and fat stores. Concavenator (and altispinax if it is a carchar), acro has the infamously tall back but most other large carchars are similar if less exaggerated, and then meraxes.

[clever sable]

How large was the largest acro specimen?

[astral kelp]

Would Tasmanian tigers thrive in Tasmania today? Like genuinely cause iirc they were proposed to hunt kangaroos?

[sterile trail]

possib;y

[keen forum]

11.5m and 5.7tons iirc

[vocal breach]

What y’all think of me Utah so far

[clever sable]

Even better skeletal

[vocal breach]

Accurate or nah

[bright veldt]

The whole thing with the thylacine is very interesting, given a recent paper that suggests that they likely went extinct much later than usually thought (potentially as recent as the 2000s). There's also the possiblity of them still existing in New Guinea.

[clever sable]

My 6.6 tonne acro is gone (someone should GDI beags skeletal and see what ridiculous weight that gets)

[storm heron]

Oh, I must be misremebering then.

[astral kelp]

That’s cool, although I do find it hard to believe cause everyone always puts the click bait titles to whatever news article or video

[light osprey]

find them then 💅

[keen forum]

acro has a small one

[clever sable]

Beags acro skeletal seems a little.......

[sterile trail]

then theres this

[bright veldt]

Normally I'd be a bit more dismissive of lost species but given how we've actually confirmed the existance of leopards in Britian a few months back I'm suddenly a lot less skeptical.

[clever sable]

Not as small as his feets

[stiff osprey]

I think the thylacine went extinct around the 1980s. No evidence just vibes

[storm heron]

Oh yea, that is true. Its just the dip of Meraxes seems rather prominent and makes me wonder whether it had something similar to to Concavenator: a possible fat hump.

[vocal breach]

Fred what you think? Accurate or nah

[astral kelp]

Wasn’t thylacine also prosed to stand like kangaroos or smth leaning on its tail?

[clever sable]

Seems good

[tough parcel]

The Sasquatch of North American forests…

[light osprey]

It’s me, sorry

[storm heron]

Cryptids is an interesting topic

[sterile trail]

yes

[bright veldt]

Yeah...I was on and off about it but the longer times goes on the more I can buy it. One of the issues with sasquash skepticism not talked about often is that the people looking for bigfoot are a bunch of amateurs and/or whackos rather than scientists that're actually qualified.

[clever sable]

Omg guys, megalodon evidence, my source is YouTube shorts, it actually lived in deep sea trenches

[light osprey]

New animales can be discovered all the time, maybe we’ll find an old one

[sterile trail]

What would it eat down there?

[astral kelp]

Although leopards being found in Britain? That’s super cool

[clever sable]

There literally wouldn't be enough food to support it 💀

[lavish frigate]

I’m sorry…..leopards where now?? The UK got some weird stuff going on…. They have wallabies to

[sterile trail]

my point exactly

[storm heron]

You heard of the alleged black cats of Britain? those are the leopards.

[bright veldt]

Yeah they recently found DNA evidence. There's at least one leopard roaming around the british countryside somewhere. At the moment we don't know much else.

[sullen cairn]

beast of dartmoor

[stiff osprey]

Deep sea trenches could support a single megalodon, if you gave it the ability to teleport to a different trench once its current food source was depleted

[storm heron]

I am curious though how they came to be, though it is speculation that there is a surviving (and thriving) population. But I mean, there were possible sightings well before there was DNA evidence of Leopards in Britain, so to me that suggests there is a surviving population as a opposed to a dying/dwindling one.

[vocal breach]

Any nitpicks scano?

[bright veldt]

Looks good to me

[vocal breach]

YIPPEE

[astral kelp]

Can someone explain how leopards can withstand falling out of tree face first onto there prey without shattering there bones

[compact leaf]

I’m just waiting for some sort of aphotic zone weirdo to get pulled out of one of the great lakes, they haven’t been here long enough for really weird stuff but who knows what’s down there

[clever sable]

Totally real new livyatan size estimate

[vocal breach]

Cat magic

[stiff osprey]

Evil cat magic

[light osprey]

Seems to be missing the orbit (totally real criticism)

[vocal breach]

Proof?

[bright veldt]

But yeah, if a big cat (potentially a population of them even) can remain hidden for who knows how long in one of the least-wild and most-public stretches of wilderness in the world, then to me suddenly the idea of a large ape remaining hidden in the Americas is suddenly a lot more believable.

[keen forum]

Cats being on crack like always there is no answer just horrible cat behavior

[storm heron]

A sea serpent.

[astral kelp]

I wonder if a lion tried to do the same would it be ok?

[stiff osprey]

Livyatan with basilosaur proportions is just the ASOIAF leviathan

[vocal breach]

Probably not

[clever sable]

Tf is ASOIAF

[light osprey]

No eyes?

[stiff osprey]

I have heard of lions being permanently injured from falling off trees, hence they don't climb much

[compact leaf]

especially considering how shockingly terrible the ape fossil record is

[vocal breach]

HES NOT DONE YET GIVE HIM SOME TIME

[lavish frigate]

Scanova open to Sasquatch?

[tough parcel]

Everyone should be open to Big Monke

[storm heron]

Oh yea, what are the possible theories on why it the ape fossil record is so . . . . almost non-existant?

[light osprey]

North American Primate when?

[clever sable]

Bigfoot ain't real, although I don't doubt that there are species of animals we haven't found, Bigfoot just seems kinda unlikely (although not impossible)

[astral kelp]

Me when gigantopithecus wasn’t as big as people think:

[tough parcel]

Reasoning now 🌩️

[clever sable]

There are over 300 million of them in the US alone

[lavish frigate]

Imma just say I’m unapologetically a fan of cliff and bobo from finding Bigfoots podcast…..

[stiff osprey]

Apes are mainly tropical animals, and rainforests are notoriously bad at preserving fossils except for the random odd lagerstatte

[clever sable]

Big monke, no evidence, evidence is literally "just trust me bro"

[light osprey]

I solved Bigfoot 🧠

[compact leaf]

a lot of pretty high ranking zoologists and anthropologists are open to the idea of one or more of the bigfoot type cryptids being real (if not necessarily a north american one)

[bright veldt]

I'm not gunna say I think it's out there but I'm definitely open. It's a combination of said recent leopard event...and the fact that it's not gunna be that surprising we're not finding it if qualified experts aren't looking for it. That's how a lot of discovering stuff in science works. We find stuff when we're looking for it.

[tough parcel]

What gets me is there’s apparently bipedal ape tracks that precede hominid(?) expansion out of Africa by millions of years + a possible Mastodon butchering site before humans arrived too

[sterile trail]

My Honest Reaction when I see an innacurate dinosaur:

[storm heron]

Hmm, good point.

[compact leaf]

yeah the ape fossil record is horrifying, it makes sauropods look complete lol

[clever sable]

No Early human fossils because they all got eaten by crocs

[tough parcel]

The footprint one especially gives me the heebeejeebies

[astral kelp]

What’s the consensus of leopards killing gorillas is this common?

[clever sable]

Idk but I know early humans seemed to be getting killed by cave hyenas a lot

[light osprey]

Speaking of rainforests, what geographical areas of the Maastrichtian would likely represent those types of environments

[stiff osprey]

In the congo rainforest female and young gorillas are not uncommon targets

[compact leaf]

that is really interesting but kind of creepy

[keen forum]

enough for great apes to fear them and try to flee rather than fight and even after one fighting one off it still died from the wounds it got

[tough parcel]

I’m trying to find the picture of the footprints (I swear I saw one, but maybe I’m insaaaaane)

[light osprey]

(They never existed)

[stiff osprey]

The mastodon butchering site is something like 130 kya, impressively old but I can see H.sapiens making it across the world in 100 thousand years or so

[clever sable]

Something that I find weird is the bones of a small human that appear to have lots of small holes in them (they were likely eaten by a bird, and a pretty large one at that) and there have been theories that it was a terror bird of some type but the bones are from all the way in Europe so either it wasn't a terror bird or there were European terror birds

[tough parcel]

Hmmm, do you know of the Trachilos prints

[astral kelp]

Does the theory of the American cheetah made the pronghorn the fastest thing in North America hold up?

[keen forum]

also i forget how big a leopard is warning one that was hunted

[stiff osprey]

I do not

[compact leaf]

what does kya stand for? I’m not familiar with that one

[astral kelp]

Cause idk what else would make the pronghorn as fast as it is

[stiff osprey]

like mya but for thousand years

[clever sable]

Crack

[compact leaf]

ok that makes sense I’m just being dense lol

[tough parcel]

Dated to the Miocene

[astral kelp]

I’ll choose the American cheetah over crack

[light osprey]

Me (I voraciously chase them)

[lavish frigate]

How big were they?

[clever sable]

Maybe uhhhhhhhhh

[keen forum]

falcon put ya darn feet pics away

[light osprey]

Don’t be silly, you know those are my feet 💅

[tough parcel]

Don’t seem to be gigantic, but apes aren’t gigantic in the beginning

[astral kelp]

Seems to be a big male

[stiff osprey]

Oh those are nice, definitely not from a hominin given the shape, but the fact that some other ape decided to biped independently is wild

[compact leaf]

it happened in europe independently too

[lavish frigate]

They actually look remarkably similar to supposed Bigfoot casts I’ve seen wich makes me kinda think

[keen forum]

apes do like to be bipedal for some odd reason

[tough parcel]

(They’re from Greece)

[clever sable]

Maybe it only ever took a couple steps, gave up and then went back to only being a quadruped

[vestal star]

Seems Primates are just really well positioned to be biped. Im sorry-

[lavish frigate]

Which divot in the ground is a footprint I can’t tell lol

[keen forum]

https://tenor.com/view/gog-gog40-monkey-funny-gif-18828587

[astral kelp]

I wonder how getting tail slapped by an orca would feel like

[tough parcel]

Uhhhh, I just assumed they all were ngl 😔

[compact leaf]

I’m gonna go out on a limb and say it would hurt

[keen forum]

death and a trip to at least 10+ meters into the air

[astral kelp]

Sounds fun (Not the death part)

[tough parcel]

Seems to be a bit more than “a couple of steps” (assuming most, if not all, of this sandstone block contains a print)

[keen forum]

oh snap that is cool

[stiff osprey]

Top 10 nature images

[tough parcel]

Nature is metal…

[keen forum]

aaaaaaaand he's gone

[astral kelp]

I want to get slapped by an orca

[clever sable]

Ayo

[astral kelp]

[clever sable]

So uh, what was the number 1 predator of early humans?

[bright veldt]

Leopards

[clever sable]

Not surprising

[stiff osprey]

Guessing it was a tie between leopards and crocodiles

[compact leaf]

it depends on how far back you consider human but big cats and crocodiles are both big ones

[astral kelp]

I know dinofelis liked to hunt early humans

[clever sable]

Common crocodile W

[tough parcel]

Reading the Trechilos print wiki page, Zamn this place is crazy

[keen forum]

the man eating croc and thorb XD

[tough parcel]

Anthropologists really hate challenging current theories, huh 😔

[clever sable]

Btw does the theory of humans being afraid of snakes as an evolutionary response to make us not touch potentially deadly animals still hold up?

[compact leaf]

paleoanthropologists scare me more than any other breed of scientists, they’re lovely people but if you have a different idea they want blood, and all of them have a different idea

[clever sable]

Crocodylus anthropophagus > Crocodylus thorbjarnarsoni

[stiff osprey]

It's true that apes can recognize snakes more easily and reliably than any other predator. But this could be just because most predators have complex shapes while a snake is Tube

[astral kelp]

Cats when cucumbers:

[stiff osprey]

Real

[keen forum]

Crocodylus thorbjarnarsoni the croc that ate early humans whole is the winner here

[clever sable]

Danger noodle

[clever sable]

Crocodylus anthropophagus better because horns and it's a 100% confirmed human eater and uhhhh idk

[compact leaf]

with paleoanthropologists it’s less nobody will challenge the current theory, more that all of them are challenging it in completely different ways

[stiff osprey]

I find Crocodylus anthropophagus funny because it doesn't have humans in its gut contents or anything, early human bones were found with croc bite marks so the first croc fossil they found nearby they went "hm. Musta been this guy"

[astral kelp]

What animal do you hate the most?

I gotta say mosquitoes.

[clever sable]

An absolutely huge unmeasured thorbjarnarsoni skull

[clever sable]

Hey, he probably did eat em

[tough parcel]

Gotta be KM or random, they hide all the good stuff away from me specifically 😔

[clever sable]

Just a guess but this thing probably came from an 8 meter individual

[astral kelp]

Mosquitoes are still worse imo. Those pests suck on my blood for free.

[stiff osprey]

As long as you mean living animals I accept that

[tough parcel]

You’ll soon be on my most behated extinct animals list

[keen forum]

it's simple falcon, give me 3$

[clever sable]

This is a totally real definitely not fake Nile crocodile specimen

[tough parcel]

Guh, that’s so much, I’d need to sell the house and kids to afford that…

[astral kelp]

I took your kids

[stiff osprey]

Nooo those were worth at least $1

[keen forum]

https://tenor.com/view/sml-prince-charles-ew-it-smells-so-poor-in-here-poor-smells-poor-in-here-gif-25996196

[sullen cairn]

paleo chat lore deepens

[tough parcel]

Oi, my kids are top stock, they’re at least $2

[keen forum]

more like 2 cents

[astral kelp]

Gordon Ramsay is my dad if your kids are 2 dollars

[meager sedge]

Please ensure this channel stays on topic! Thankyou.

[clever sable]

So wtf is going on with turtle phylogeny or taxonomy or whatever?

[tough parcel]

Anyways, funny monkey tracks are cool

[clever sable]

What are turtles?????

[stiff osprey]

Whatever people tell me about turtle taxonomy I just accept tbh

[keen forum]

turtles do be pilosaurs with a shell

[astral kelp]

Hey Random considering you’re from Brazil have you ever encountered bullet ants?

[clever sable]

Turtle lore is confusing

Turtles are like discount archosaurs

But with a cool shell

[stiff osprey]

I have not, but my old school used to have what resembled very large trapjaw ants

[lavish frigate]

The small spurt of Bigfoot conversation made me want to draw a realistic interpretation of one. And then I went to see gorillas as a reference……I hate how much facial diversity they have….

[sullen cairn]

turtles are sister to archosauromorphs iirc

[clever sable]

If all we had to go off for reconstructing a hippo was it's head idk what it would end up looking like

[astral kelp]

Hippos are just full of rage it’s funny

[stiff osprey]

If the person reconstructing it knew what a pig looked like they would get hippos pretty good. Maybe misinterpret the tusks as exposed but that's it

[clever sable]

Lipless hippo would be cool

[dire sky]

Not mine this from All Todays

[sand silo]

That looks like a permian animal.

[viscid surge]

You’ve just hit upon something actually

How do we know the Permian animals arent just wildly unrealistic right now

[exotic quest]

oh damn

[viscid surge]

Can someone provide me some skeletals of synapsids and stuff? I’m gonna see how far I can go now

Just whatever looks cool right now

[viscid surge]

Thanks I’ll work with this for now

[heady thunder]

Is fasolasuchus still 10m long or was it downsized?

[sand silo]

Sooo it's possible that inostrancevia is much cuter?

[bright veldt]

It’s now, like, 7m

[light osprey]

Just the silliest Permian goober

[frail robin]

All Yesterdays did that in the All Todays segment with Manatees, by explaining how only the skull was found by future paleontologists, so they didn't know it was an aquatic mammal

[sand silo]

Dang, manatees are aquatic and here it looks like a capybara mixed with a lion

[light osprey]

What about all the other Sirenians that could inform its anatomy

[tough parcel]

All Yesterdays was a disaster for speculative reconstruction and public understanding of how reconstructions work

[honest wave]

It did a lot of good in terms of advancing how people see realistic speculation, but it’s also caused a lot of people to completely misunderstand the process behind reconstructing an animal.

[dire sky]

Do we know why concadoncs have a hip hump?

Just asking Bcs if this meme I saw

[bright veldt]

Probably fat stores

[dire sky]

Kinda like a camel?

There humps use fat to store water

Oh and then why the hell does icthyoven have a split tail

[tranquil quartz]

Probably some evolutionary purpose

https://tenor.com/view/think-smart-gif-22411928

[compact leaf]

fat stores is a safe bet, the safest bet with structures like this is always display function

when in doubt, it's for display

[bright veldt]

This one we don’t really know

[light osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/tony-stark-eyeglass-exellent-question-gif-12818139

[dire sky]

Nah I’m telling that photos the truth ( jk )

[stiff osprey]

Ichthy's sail is for display, display structures just have weird shapes sometimes

[white matrix]

My brain is in pain

[astral kelp]

body of a mountain lion? lmao

[stiff osprey]

Guys look, a mosasaur!

[clever sable]

Real

[covert lintel]

i think they forgot that this is an aquatic animal

[stiff osprey]

the description simply does not fit any animal aside from DND dragons

[tough parcel]

Jersey devil tho? 😔

[stiff osprey]

Two legged iirc

[jagged trellis]

ive always seen depictions of it be 4, but knowing the jersey devil its probably a hockey player who just likes batman alot

[tough parcel]

It varies, I've heard, but yea...you're right, I think the general common sightings are bipedal

[viscid surge]

Someone dubbed this “concavenator and convexinator” lmao

[tranquil quartz]

100% real!!!

[dire sky]

Isn’t that the thing in red dead?

Mk ye it is

[white matrix]

"Category: Pterosaurs" 😭😭😭
Also that description is one of a chimera NOT a mosa 🤣😭😭😂💀

[light osprey]

Bro couldn’t have been more accurate (real)

[light oxide]

Camptosaurus Appreciation Time (feel free to say which Camptosaurus depiction is ye favorite):

[elfin pulsar]

Definitely the fifth one

[light osprey]

Thicc Camptosaurus

[fallow citrus]

LOOKIE

[nocturne gazelle]

3rd, 5th, and 9th are my favorite. Man campto looks so chonky compared to in game

[nocturne gazelle]

I wish defense campto was that chonky

[west drum]

5

[jagged trellis]

the last one is my favorite just because of how simple of a idea it is yet we rarely see it

[west drum]

also I see that campto skin inspiration

[bright veldt]

@kind narwhal

[kind narwhal]

Nuh uh

[bright veldt]

I understand what ur saying, but at the same time, it's often the best of what's given

That brachio-camara comparison doesn't really work when said brachiosaurus isn't that complete itself and primarily uses a more complete close relative as a reference (Giraffatitan)

It also depends on the context. Some things will vary given what we know about different clades.

[dire sky]

Hol up

[nocturne gazelle]

That looks... not right...

Why is it's neck... bloated? Is that actually what paleontologists think it looked like?

[bright veldt]

It is the most updated sauroposeidon skeletal I believe yeah

[heady thunder]

Brachi the goat.

[nocturne gazelle]

The neck bulge just looks so odd. The widest part of the neck is in a little bit past where it connects to the shoulders.

[storm heron]

The deepest part, and I mean the bulge can be made similar or insignificant depending on how much soft tissue you add.

[nocturne gazelle]

The bones themselves are larger just past the base as well though

Seems unnatural

[viscid surge]

I need someone to explain how they inferred the grey bones being so weird looking

[manic thicket]

Because it’s somewhat based on bones of related dinosaurs but also changed for what they know about the structure of the exact species so that it gives us a very close estimate of what they should appear as, in some cases we already have the bones in place it’s just not officially recorded yet.

[viscid surge]

I understand all that but why would the bones around the middle of the neck be so much thicker than the ones at the base?

[manic thicket]

Because they are supporting a larger shoulder base supporting that long neck. Skin, muscle, bones and ligaments it created a ton of stress on smaller bones so they have to be that thick to have the required strength, most large sauropods bones were found to have a eternal webbing like pores to try and reduce the weight and add flexibility to the bones especially the ones under great stress to keep them from being to brittle, in adding hollow pores though you need to compensate with more surface area to keep your overall strength, the more surface exposed the less pressure per square inch is applied, that would be why they were so thick. As for the shoulder width and stance, more to do with balance between the head and neck vs the body. Like a crane, and the shoulder width helps cover the aria on the sides of the neck so it doesn’t tip over by itself. It’s why on smaller sauropods like diplodocus, the shoulders can afford to be narrower, everything has a lower center of gravity and is more equally distributed throughout the neck shoulders and body not requiring nearly as much strength and added stress on the neck or shoulders as something like sauraposidon or argentinosaurus.

Thinking about the pressure and overall weight and stress of the neck should explain a lot. I hope this helped.

[frigid coral]

Safari LTD has released a Therizinosaurus! Thoughts?

[fallow citrus]

i likey

[wary heath]

What book is that

[woeful falcon]

That's a consistent take. My first thought was also that it reminded me of jwd giga

[wary heath]

could be a megaraptor

[tough parcel]

It's Anchiornis, I checked already and there's no large theropods in its formation

[clever sable]

Upon closer inspection it turns out those spikes may actually be feathers

[tough parcel]

The synopsis of the episodes don't give me hope at all ngl, it feels sorta "pro-mammal propaganada" when you look a bit into it, but idk

[stiff osprey]

The Anchiornis model in general is... not good, but that is an exception among LOOP models

[light osprey]

How did this fella end up here lol

[covert lintel]

i mean. have you seen the wings on that anchiornis? 's Bad

[clever sable]

Wdym "pro mammal propaganda"

[stiff osprey]

The episode synopsis refer to dinosaurs as evil at every opportunity

[clever sable]

Bro what 💀 where can I find this

[compact leaf]

I want to read them too where can you find them?

[stiff osprey]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/646184588858621963/1144471025736761437/Screenshot_2023-08-24_at_8.19.06_PM.png

[clever sable]

I don't see anything calling dinosaurs killing machines, I see giants and rulers but nothing about killing machines

[stiff osprey]

Not killing machines, villains and bullies

Mammals are the ''unexpected heroes'', ''the most incredible animals'', etc

[clever sable]

True, true

[elfin pulsar]

Weird that they word it like that

[chilly knot]

https://tenor.com/view/shrek-frog-dies-from-cringe-gif-21051437

[clever sable]

I hope it's closer in format to WWD because tbh I didn't really love the format of PP

I didn't hate the format of PhP but I definitely preferred WWDs

[covert lintel]

mammal bias? in MY prehistoric documentary?
it's more likely than you think!

[compact leaf]

hooray another episode where we learn a bit about the late cretaceous and then watch everything die 😐

[light osprey]

It’s pretty, but Prehistoric Planet will not be matched in its quality thus far

[clever sable]

Also while most of the models looked pretty good there were a couple..... Not great ones, rex is the first that comes to mind, and the diplodocids didn't have the proper neck posture

[compact leaf]

the synopsis definitely reads as a very mammal centric story

[clever sable]

I don't completely mind that but I do wish we spent more than 2 episodes in the mesozoic

If deinosuchus or sarcosuchus makes an appearance imma be Happy but that's unlikely it seems

[compact leaf]

it looks like we’ll get 3 episodes in the mesozoic but the last one will just be late cretaceous focusing on the extinction and the mammals surviving it

[covert lintel]

they also just forgot that wings extend beyond the wing finger, like the feathers on that anchiornis' wing form a straight line going backwards from the end of the finger, it's just bizarre. we've known that wings don't work like that for years! that's an incredibly old way of restoring non-avian wings

[wary heath]

I'm excited for the one with the synapsids

I remember seeing the trailer and was like "wait, that's not a sabretooth, that's a gorgonopsid"

[stiff osprey]

it's also flying in the microraptorine four-wing posture, despite not having hindlimb wings? as described in another server, this animal would drop like a stone

[wary heath]

inostrancevia?

[chilly knot]

nah

[elfin pulsar]

Those tiny little “wings” flying seemed off to me, guess I was right

[compact leaf]

it also looks suspiciously like the triceratops has elephant feet but I can’t really see it well enough to tell 100%, it just doesn’t look right

[light osprey]

Nose looking a bit too mammalian maybe?

[wary heath]

nah

it's too sparsely covered in fur to be a true mammal

definitely a gorgonopsid, just look at those teeth

[heady thunder]

Based.

[light osprey]

Yes yes, I’m saying it’s nose is being reconstructed incorrectly

[snow python]

Was wilkes land crater created by an asteroid?

[wary heath]

it looks normal to me

[heady thunder]

Says the baryonyx guy

[somber tartan]

Random thought of the day: do you think that if we flew far enough into outer space, and used a super overpowered telescope to look back at the Earth, do you think that we would be able to see non-avian dinosaurs still alive?

[stiff osprey]

We wouldn't, but aliens living over 66 million light years away would

Humans don't have faster than light travel, so if you traveled 66 million light years out into space, you would just be seeing the earth of today

[heady thunder]

Not if we went faster then light.
Thats how we will find out how spino walked.

[somber tartan]

We need to start developing this technology immediately, so we can finally end the debate

[sullen cairn]

Why does spinosaurus get singled out among spinosaurids

Besides for being spinosaurus

[stiff osprey]

that is reason enough

[somber tartan]

Do you know what you are absolutely right stares at sigilmassasaurus f*ck you

Looool

[sullen cairn]

They already did something like that for a beetle

Tyrannasorus rex

Beetle names are the nemesis of vertebrate paleontology

[cloud bane]

Entamology, the reason we can't have nice things

[somber tartan]

Real

[dusky galleon]

Rajasaurus vs Majungasaurus fight. Who wins?

[stiff osprey]

Majungasaurus, two very similar animals but junga is larger

[light osprey]

Negative diff victory because Rajasaurus got soloed by the Deccan Traps

[heady thunder]

Well tbf, no one cares about those.

[sullen cairn]

iczn does

[dull shuttle]

Louisiana is like the Permian-Triassic extinction event all over again..

[heady thunder]

Bruh

[thorn gazelle]

So I’m in college and I’m planning on becoming a vascular sonographer. However, ever since I was a kid I’ve always wanted to be a paleontologist. I’ve held off on this dream because from what I know (and have been told), paleontologists don’t make much money and it’s not something you can necessarily rely on.

I’m not sure if this is accurate or not but was hoping someone here would know more about it than I do. In terms of whether paleontology is a good job or not.

[woeful falcon]

as with a lot of pursuits a degree could open doors outside of its namesake, for example working as an educator. That said idk what the job market looks like for those with paleontological degrees, but there's probably avenues that offer financial stability that you might not be thinking of. Just comes down to what you can do with your degree

Unfortunately I'm not the person with a specific answer beyond that

[light osprey]

I think someone in this channel is a Palaeontologist, I can’t remember who though

[compact leaf]

I’m on track for my degree in it, if you find a job in it the lower end salary is still more than comfortable and the higher end is a lot of money

[thorn gazelle]

Isn’t the lower end salary around 50k a year?

[compact leaf]

closer to 80

it varies by region too but that’s a good standard

[nocturne gazelle]

I imagine the issue isn't that there aren't jobs for paleontologists but that there are more paleontologists than there are jobs. Competition is likely very high.

[thorn gazelle]

Didn’t know that. Last time I checked it was around 50k. I’ll definitely look more into it.

[light osprey]

Sounds lovely enough

[tough parcel]

@stiff osprey might be able to help you a bit, but afaik paleontology is a very intense, cutthroat type of job when it comes to publishing and stuff, along with low pay and such (maybe that’s only US?)

[compact leaf]

it varies a lot by region but in some places it is incredibly competitive, if you can get something like a university position though salary isn’t a big issue

[clever sable]

Oh is random a Paleontologist? I always kinda assumed it was just a hobby of his doing skeletals

[tough parcel]

Uhhh, he's studying something ajacent to it, I think? Here he is now to TKO me

[stiff osprey]

I haven't published on anything yet, but I am working on a master's in zoology (what I had to do for paleo as we have no specific paleontology course)

And I was going to say what cuttle said, basically

[clever sable]

Oh nice

[compact leaf]

publishing is a pain it’s why I haven’t done it

[thorn gazelle]

Do you think it’s a reliable career to rely on for starting a family and such?

[light osprey]

I’m gonna go with yes, based on this information

[compact leaf]

university positions are probably the most stable because you can get tenured but to get into paleo you need another degree beforehand so you’ll also have that to fall back on

[stiff osprey]

If you do get into a high level institution then yes, but getting there is going to be A Problem

[compact leaf]

yeah, I keep saying it varies by region and that’s because its a really important factor, in some places it’s a lot harder than others

[tough parcel]

What someone I know is doing is getting a stable job, saving up, and then becoming a paleontologist later in their life

[compact leaf]

that’s kind of what I’m doing, it’s a solid plan

[stiff osprey]

I'm going for a study path where I could become a researcher or a biology teacher. I don't like teaching, but at least there will always be a job opening somewhere

[compact leaf]

I’m kind of building a background in lab work right now (different kind of lab but still) and conservation, then I’ll move on to grad school

I’ve been working in a cancer lab for a while now and bio departments tend to like the sound of that lol

[white matrix]

Spino wins against Rex in a fight no difficulty

[stiff osprey]

I would win against both high difficulty

[astral kelp]

My mother would beat all three of you low difficulty

[full panther]

Is there a specific cutoff timeframe for paleo chat? Like is everything from the beginning of time up to the Holocene cool?

[bright veldt]

extinct basically

[stiff osprey]

yeah, talking about still living animals may get the mods on you. It's fine if it's fossils of those same animals tho

[white matrix]

Is polar bear 5th largest mammalian carnie ever?

[light osprey]

Wait until I tell them most modern animals predate human history

[white matrix]

Anyone know?

[woeful falcon]

Gonna assume this is excluding all whales

[stiff osprey]

I don't keep track of the top 5 anything except theropods, but i only know of three predatory land mammals larger than a polar bear, only one of which is confirmed to be a carnivore (Arctodus)

[light osprey]

Top 10 I think is my random guess at the very least

[stiff osprey]

Paraentelodon is an omnivore, and Arctotherium is unresolved i believe. Daeodon is also an omnivore

[scarlet moon]

How big was psittacosaurus?

[stiff osprey]

most species are around 2 meters long, the largest, P.sibiricus, was over 3m

[light osprey]

Dear oh my, that is one big Psittacosaurus

[scarlet moon]

Friend sized

[compact leaf]

I try to keep track of sauropods but with how often it changes I just settle for what’s heaviest tallest and longest at any given time

[sullen cairn]

I only keep track of abelisaurids and half of that’s from grillo and delcourt

[stiff osprey]

theropods are actually pretty stable, we haven't had anything new in the top 5 since 2014

[compact leaf]

the number one spot for sauropods is pretty stable but as soon as you dip below that in the weight category it’s chaos

[light osprey]

Heh such small minded fields, I embrace a larger view of the sizes… kind of, just how animals compare in the Maastrichtian

[sullen cairn]

If that includes maastrichtian abelisaurids then based

[light osprey]

of course you lovely fellow

[sullen cairn]

Very based

[clever sable]

What about andrewsarchus

[clever sable]

What are they? The top 5?

[astral kelp]

Andrewsarchus was downsized to around 500-600kg

[clever sable]

I was asking about it's diet

[astral kelp]

Most likely omnivorous

[clever sable]

Because I feel like I remember hearing it was an omnivore but I'm not completely sure now

[compact leaf]

argent is still number one, below that patagotitan and puertasaurus are in the running for next spot, alamosaurus is somewhere in there too but there’s conflicting weight estimates out there for all of them

[light osprey]

W Puertasaurus (I had a brain fart, this is the taxon I meant to comment)

[astral kelp]

Still omnivorous

[clever sable]

Alamosaurus got hit with a hard downsize 😔

[compact leaf]

height the number one spot is still sauroposeidon (if we assume more brachiosaurid like proportions) and length supersaurus has it by a fair margin

[clever sable]

How large was that huge supersaurus that massive vertebrae was attributed to?

[light osprey]

Larger than you

[sullen cairn]

This is the second time I’ve seen tallest sauropod come up in conversation in the past hour on discord

And both time’s failed to take into account the wonderful giant asiatosaurus tooth that’s very reliable

[light osprey]

Most bestest way of measuring size

[compact leaf]

estimates vary for it but one of them put it at 39m long

[storm heron]

A person of culture I see.

[clever sable]

Oh wow, that's actually insane...... any mass estimates for that?

[light osprey]

I’d reckon still heavier than you

[compact leaf]

Curtice is working with that and some new brachiosaurus material right now but I’m not sure he ever put a mass to that estimate, if he did I don’t know it

[stiff osprey]

i'm super eager to see the 39m Supersaurus reconstruction because we already had most of its torso, it can't have gotten that much bigger

so if 39m is correct then super is just a ginormous neck on one end, a comparatively tiny torso, and then a ginormous tail on the other

[clever sable]

Nah guys, the real largest sauropod was maraapunisaurus

[light osprey]

Mass estimates are kind of lame, too variable. Length and height measurements and a vague description of being bulky go way harder

[compact leaf]

I have a feeling he’s going to downsize it to something more like 35m and potentially upsize brachi based on what he’s been saying lately

[stiff osprey]

the neck on Super is definitely longer than we've been going with atm, so 36m is a safe bet (the larger Supersaurus specimen is about 34 m)

[compact leaf]

he’s not quite as trigger happy with the downsizing as larramendi is lol

[stiff osprey]

Goliath, the smallest Supersaurus specimen

[light osprey]

He’s just a lil guy

[white matrix]

Is that it’s “reproductive device” nvm I saw it’s head

[stiff osprey]

if you believe that sauropod necks were display structures, technically, yes

[compact leaf]

the neck verts on super are insane

Curtice could be sitting on anything at this point, I know he has stuff on the way for super alamo and brachi at the very least

he tends to come in with something huge that throws the sauropod community into disarray for a bit and then sink back into lurking for a while

lately he's been dropping hints about some new posture studies too

[light osprey]

Super duper Alamosaurus comeback?

[compact leaf]

doesn’t look like it

[proper hornet]

Question what is the size difference between Rex, Giga, and Mapu?

[sullen cairn]

largest mapusaurus and giganotosaurus holotype are around the same size (~8.5t range) which is a bit larger than average rex (~7.5-8t range). Largest rex is ~10.5t and giga has a dentary that can be scaled to around ~10.5t as well but it's a single dentary and unreliable

[light oxide]

Tyrannosaurus is generally seen as a bit larger compared to Giganotosaurus and Mapusaurus, Giganotosaurus being about the same size as Mapusaurus (though Giganotosaurus can get a bit larger than Mapusaurus).

But overall, they're around the same size, on average at least.

[proper hornet]

Alright thank you both

[steady rock]

is this a accurate skeletal?

[viscid surge]

Why do the arms sprout from the hips bruh

Nvm im just stupi-

[junior dawn]

not really afaik. Torso is a bit too small, head is based on eagles instead of teratorns, feet are a bit too big too i think?, femur cant do that... and some other details

[steady rock]

oh, i alwayus thought argentavis was more like, vulture shaped, not error bird shaped

[junior dawn]

this is a good argentavis

[bright veldt]

Teratorns aren’t the same as terror birds. Teratorns were less like vultures ecologically and more like caracaras and various other ground raptors

[light oxide]

Neeco found something interesting:

https://fxtwitter.com/kta92751434/status/1695227934171435160?t=ycS1oON5pb9OuTwxm6ILbw&s=19

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325718855_Leonardo_a_Mummified_Brachylophosaurus_Ornithischia_Hadrosauridae_from_the_Judith_River_Formation_of_Montana

[heady thunder]

So?

[light oxide]

Well, could this be the case for the other hadrosaurs with similar features that were depicted to have the large scales on the top of the back?

(Also the fact that we have yet another mummified hadrosaur . . . somewhat.)

XD

[tiny holly]

I thought it was already common knowledge those were neural spines? I could just be misremembering but that's pretty blatantly what they look like at any rate

We do have scale impressions from the dakota mummy but they're pretty normal looking scales that line up with how dinosaur scales tend to look

[light oxide]

I meant the large scale like protrusions along the back that is somewhat depicted in hadrosaurs:

[bright veldt]

Tabular Scutes

[tiny holly]

Ah those huh

[light oxide]

Ah, so that's what they're called. Noted.

Well, according to the newly discovered mummified hadrosaur mentioned above . . . They may not have existed -- that they were instead just part of the neural spines, with the ridged backs going higher.

#paleontology message

[bright veldt]

It’s not newly discovered. The paper you link’s from 2007

[light oxide]

. . . o h . . .

[heady thunder]

Yeah thats where I was trying to get at, I thought this was like, common knowledge or smth cos you see it everywhere in reconstructions.

[light oxide]

Ye still see them every now and then. Based on what I've been seeing, at least.

[heady thunder]

PP had them on most hadros iirc

[sudden wind]

Yeah, in fact that's a trope that took place because of people going nuts over those and thinking these were actually soft tissues (while being not). It is so common sight that I also believed it was legit until this tweet, with a good photo of Leonardo.

[sudden wind]

It is mostly based on eagles and not other Teratorns, so it has some flaws like talon size, head shape, torso size. It also has the femur in an unnatural position for birds (more akin to non avian theropods), thus making it seem taller.

As you can see, in the references, Manu mostly used Accipitriforms : the clade regrouping all eagles, hawks, kites, the secretary bird and ospreys as well as Old World vutltures. New world vultures now are in a separate clade called Cathartiforms, with the Teratornithids. So, Teratornithids shouldn't be much referenced with Accipitriforms.

[sand silo]

I got a dumb idea, spino steaks and what would be the best cuts and seasonings/spices for each cut(sail, tail chunk etc.)

[sudden wind]

Sail and tail would barely have meat.

[sand silo]

Still, maybe it would make a good stock or it could even be boiled to harvest gelatin because of how much skin is on.(spino gummies)

[covert lintel]

the base of the tail would probably be good, but that can be said of most tailed dinosaurs

[light oxide]

Like Leonardo, Leonardo changed how we viewed things. XD

[quaint isle]

Irritator and Icthyovenator are the same species, change my mind

[sudden wind]

One is from Brazil and the other from Thailand.

[woeful falcon]

not convinced.

[white matrix]

Who wins in a fight cave bear or cerato

[stiff osprey]

Cerato. Cave bears are smaller than modern polar bears and herbivorous

[white matrix]

Huh they are?

You sure?

[stiff osprey]

Yes, the average is 300 something kilograms

[white matrix]

Cave bear?

[warped peak]

@novel atlas So that Deinosuchus specimen is equivalent to one of those "maximum possible" Tyrannosaurus proposed specimen that could have reached almost 20 tons?

By Superadult, I mean

[novel atlas]

20 tons? For Deinosuchus? Likely not.

Witton thinks the largest Tyrannosaurus may have reached 13 tons or more.

[compact leaf]

last I checked Witton estimated the max for the species at around 12 tons not more than 13

[clever sable]

Well...... We have a specimen that may be 15 tonnes but that's based on scale bars so don't use it, the largest non scale bar specimen is like 12-13 iirc? Possibly even smaller

[warped peak]

Sorry misphrased. I saw numbers somewhere that the largest possible Tyrannosaurus may have reached 50 feet and 20 tons, at the size limit the genus could have possibly ever produced.

[novel atlas]

As far as I know, the limit is 15 tons atm.

[white matrix]

How big is puru in tons?

[tough parcel]

Big 👍

[white matrix]

Thanks

That’s gives me a good representation in my head

[tough parcel]

Np np

(It's a decent size, but no concrete weight as no-one's given a good look at it yet)

[white matrix]

Oh probably around 8 tons tho right?

[clever sable]

6-7

[white matrix]

Ok, cause I googled it and it said around 8.4 tons

[clever sable]

That's from an older thing

[white matrix]

Dang, puru is still second biggest croc ever right?

[clever sable]

Yeah, at least to my knowledge

[white matrix]

W puru L crocodiles

Deino bite >>>>>>>>>>Rex bite

L Rex W puru and deino

[warped peak]

Would help if someone bothered to get proper numbers

[white matrix]

True but we all know deino is the W

[warped peak]

Ehhh

At least compared to Sarco lol

[white matrix]

Compared to Rex deino still better and bigger

W gator and caiman LLLLL croc

Rex: wah wah big lizard. Deino: big epic gator

[astral kelp]

its not really a gator though

[tough parcel]

It is

[white matrix]

Aren’t they sorta related tho same with puru and caimans

[white matrix]

What does purusaurus’ say

[tough parcel]

(I assume the other Puru species fit close to there)

[clever sable]

Sarco is amazing, why u bully him

[clever sable]

Sizes for the 2 largest puru specimens

[chilly knot]

Only to get dominated and displaced by true crocs

[white matrix]

?

[clever sable]

I mean, the bigger thing is debatable

[white matrix]

Yes

[chilly knot]

W croc, L caiman and gator

[clever sable]

Puru > astorgosuchus

[chilly knot]

https://tenor.com/view/unbased-gif-26446289

[clever sable]

Puru has funny partially serrated teeth and extra bones to help it with supporting it's weight on land

[light osprey]

Cool looking skull as well

[chilly knot]

counter argument: its a caiman

[clever sable]

The biggest caiman

[chilly knot]

L

[clever sable]

Caimans are generally not cool but purussaurus is an exception

[light osprey]

Another unbased opinion

[clever sable]

The only good modern caimans are the tiny Bois

[small geyser]

It’s just cool that all these ancient creatures existed at some point. Nature is amazing in general.

[white matrix]

Black caiman also fire also crocs are cool now but used to be the L crocodilians

[clever sable]

Black caimans when jaguars

[white matrix]

Jaguars only kill baby’s never adults

[clever sable]

That is incorrect

Jaguars have been recorded killing large males

[white matrix]

Very common misconception adult caimans at way to big lol trust me I used to believe that too

[clever sable]

No.... It's like actually a recorded thing

[white matrix]

Big cats will leave the area when they see an adult black caiman

[white matrix]

Not black caimans, black caimans are way to huge maybe smaller species tho

[clever sable]

@chilly knot you have a link to the thing, right?

[clever sable]

A 3.8 meter male black caiman was killed by a Jaguar

[chilly knot]

I can find it sure but i am busy

[white matrix]

Not in water also I’m talking about large ones aka 13 feet ones or a bit smaller

[white matrix]

That’s not at all a large black caiman

[chilly knot]

but yea it happened, a 3,8m guy got curbstomped by kitty

[clever sable]

That's easily over 3 meters

[light osprey]

All vertebrates are cool btw

[stiff osprey]

That's not a black caiman

[clever sable]

Well, it's actually only around 3 meters probably

[small geyser]

Is there really nothing else to discuss here other than which group of animals is better than the other except on the occasion a paper comes out?

[white matrix]

I never said a medium black caiman couldn’t be killed lol

[chilly knot]

thats upper average for adult males lmao

[clever sable]

You said the adults aren't killed, also that's not medium

[white matrix]

Lower than medium easily

[clever sable]

Nope

[white matrix]

You seen a big one lol?(they’re big)

[clever sable]

That's upper average

[white matrix]

So medium or slightly above lol

[chilly knot]

define medium in your eyes

[clever sable]

3.8 meters is 12.5 feet

[white matrix]

They get like 15 iirc

[light osprey]

Your forgetting one more thing, discussing the arbitrary mass of something

[small geyser]

That too

[clever sable]

I think you might be thinking of alligators