dnd-discussion

[tall forge]

A satyr arriving to the material plane means they got here from the feywild.
Thats pretty important

[exotic sinew]

Okay what if their family have been in the material realm for generations but their great great great great ect grandparents were from the FeyWilds hmmmmm

[tall forge]

Especially for a low magic setting for a campaign, interplanar travel could be made very difficult

[buoyant oar]

Satyrs exist in the realms. But it's an all male species in the realms of fey. It's like Changelings they are in the realms. But that doesn't mean I have to let them be playable

[tall forge]

Ok but now you gotta deal with a satyr family. How does that effect the world?

Again, nothing wrong if your table doesnt care about that

[exotic sinew]

I feel like yall are making a big deal out of something not that big?

[tall forge]

Thats your outlook

[buoyant oar]

This is not a fast one I pull on players. My banned species list is part of onboarding.

[tall forge]

As a dm, i care a lot about the worldbuilding

[buoyant oar]

I don't make a big deal out of it. It is just a thing I do.

[tall forge]

I consider it vital for immersion that it makes sense, so i have a banned species list

Cause some things just dont make sense to play in my setting

Its each individual tables choice to do so though

[exotic sinew]

I feel like yea home brew setting sure go right ahead and control species and stuff like that but if you are in a forgotten realms setting where like there is very few species that are not in the forgotten realms packages it’s kinda mean to restrict your players

[tall forge]

I think thats up to the dm

[exotic sinew]

I feel like you can fit in any species with the forgotten realms and that’s the beauty of it

Again if it’s home brew setting sure go right ahead

[still plover]

If I say "PHB species only" in the pitch for a game and someone rocks up with a changeling or plasmoid, I'm not the one that's made a mistake.

[tall forge]

You can, but perhaps i dont want to put in that extra work

So again, up to the dm/table to choose those things

[exotic sinew]

Hmm 🤔 interesting 🤨

[tall forge]

Some tables have banned classes

[exotic sinew]

BANNED CLASSES

now that’s insanity

[tall forge]

I ban chronurgy wizards

[echo meteor]

hmm interesting..
Lockpicking isn't actually "sleight of hand" but "Theives Tools + Dex Modifier"

[tall forge]

They are awful to deal with

[exotic sinew]

That’s a subclass. That’s different to a whole class

[echo meteor]

for some reason, i've thought it was sleight of hand for both

[tall forge]

Ive also banned bloodhunter

And some might ban clerics if there are no more gods

[echo meteor]

What makes them bad?

[tall forge]

They break the game

[echo meteor]

do they? O.o

[exotic sinew]

What do you mean no more gods 😵‍💫

[tall forge]

They can concentrate on 2 spells at once

[still plover]

The Gods are dead. Clerics are banned. Bards inherit the Realms.

[echo meteor]

what makes chronurgy broken?

[tall forge]

Killed em all. Died in the godplague

[feral fulcrum]

Busted Unqiue spells + Concentrate on 2 spells.

[echo meteor]

Chronurgy wizards can concentrate on 2 spells!?1

[exotic sinew]

Who did ?

[tall forge]

God plague

[exotic sinew]

I am so confused now

[karmic pendant]

A world with no gods? Did Kratos get to them?

[tall forge]

They can turn a spell into an orb, which any creature can cast and concentrate on

[feral fulcrum]

The Gods.

[echo meteor]

Thats not that bad for level 10

[tall forge]

They can then cast “Find familiar”, and use their familiar to concentrate on it

[echo meteor]

players are supposed to be OP/broken at level 10

[echo meteor]

Then go kill the familiar

[tall forge]

Yeahhh no its pretty insane

[feral fulcrum]

No, not really.

[exotic sinew]

Also I thought bloodhunter was a critical roll thing or and I confused on what DnD beyond says

[tall forge]

Familiar flies 60 ft into the sky. Ggs

[exotic sinew]

More like level 20 is when that happens

[karmic pendant]

It is a critical roll thing

[feral fulcrum]

You're supposed to be *Good" At level 10, Game Design doesn't go out the window because you hit midway through progression :V

[echo meteor]

So, the monsters you are throwing at the players at level 10 dont have ranged capabilities?

[tall forge]

More accurate to ask, am i willing to waste attacks on the flying familiar

[feral fulcrum]

Bows and spells can still hit them quite easily. It's not GG. :V

[exotic sinew]

Waste a legendary action lol 😂

this is a joke

[tall forge]

Who is most likely 120 ft away already because the wizard would be no where near the fight

[still plover]

I've considered doing a game where one class is excised. It'd have to be a whole thing in the setting though, not just on a whim.

[echo meteor]

if its causing the monsters issues, YES...
R u properly charging the wizards of the party 10gp Every time a familiar dies?

[tall forge]

Theyre level 10

10gp is like, pocket change at that point

[feral fulcrum]

That's chump change past like level 3, so...

[echo meteor]

its still something 🤣 depending on how they divy up gold and stuff :/

make them a bit less suicidal with their familiar

[silk hare]

introduce space constraints? like a tomb e.g.

[feral fulcrum]

It's really nothing at that point.

[exotic sinew]

Excuse me my level 1 character is extremely rich with their 23 gold pieces thank you very much

[tall forge]

That works only id there are space constraints, which is the problem

[silk hare]

well u decide when to introduce them no?

[tall forge]

I gotta do ALL THAT bc of a subclass

[echo meteor]

I dont really see the problem either, by level 10 you are throwing enemeis liek mind flayers and beholders

[silk hare]

what subclass in particular, like what is the actual issue?

[tall forge]

Chronurgy is strong

[echo meteor]

you can adjust the difficulty on the fly by adding/removing enemies

[tall forge]

So much that i ban it personally

[native bronze]

What is multiclass?

[silk hare]

oh alright sure, but just utilize stuff with magic resistance/ anti magic area etc etc

[echo meteor]

just have the creatures "call in reinforcements" if you think its too easy

[tall forge]

Yeah but now im building encounters to counter a specific player here

[silk hare]

having multiple lvls in different classes

[tall forge]

Or building around a specific player

The whole point is that theyre op in comparison to other classes

[echo meteor]

No, you just build encounters for each party.. that ONE thing isnt whats op

[silk hare]

well u can plan around them, not exactly counter them

[tall forge]

Wizard is already the strongest class in the game

[silk hare]

sure, so come up with other stuff like alternate win cons

[tall forge]

Why would i allow STRONGER wizard

[native bronze]

Oh alr
Is it worth it?

[exotic sinew]

It’s when you start as one class and then when you level up rather than staying with that same class you can take a few levels in another class for example, a level 5 character might have 4 levels of paladin and 1 level of warlock.

[tall forge]

Just a pit of party strength imbalance

[echo meteor]

"Strongest" depends on what you are looking at

[tall forge]

No, wizard legit is the strongest class

[echo meteor]

how are you measuring the "strongest"

[silk hare]

if u know what you are doing, yes, the "best builds" usually have some sort of multiclass

[tall forge]

damage per round, utility, survivability

[silk hare]

it is, you are correct, but there are ways to still lvl the playing field

[echo meteor]

Wizard has highest damage per rounbd?

[tall forge]

Yes

[echo meteor]

thats the first time ive heard of that

[native bronze]

Alr thx alot

[silk hare]

any "smart enemy" would first target healers/ ranged casters

[tall forge]

It really shouldnt be

[inner silo]

Are swords bards essentially sellswords/spies?

[echo meteor]

You sure your other players arnt just bad at building their cahracters?

[silk hare]

just ask in #optimization , they crunched the numbers, wizard excells in every aspect

[tall forge]

The maths been done, a wizard excels

[silk hare]

if you look at quantifiable aspects of the game, so mostly combat oriented (but also ooc utility) wizards just do the most + have the most options

[feral fulcrum]

Have you looked at the damage numbers Wizard spells can pop out?

[echo meteor]

Highest DPR? Though?

[fossil hollow]

spells do a shit ton of damage

[inner silo]

What do wizards get that other casters don't except a giant spell list and the chronurgy/divination subclasses?

[fossil hollow]

and wizard has a shit ton of them

[tall forge]

Turns out concentration spells + normal spells every round is a large number of damage

[silk hare]

single target CAN be contested, overall, yes, the most damage, or simply doing things to make combat meaningless

[exotic sinew]

It all depends, when you multi class you may not get some more stronger stuff from higher levels of your class if you do it wrong you wont get all your feats. In 2024 rules i may be mistaken here but if you do make it to level 20 but have multi classes you dont get your boon.

However sometimes muliclassing has its benifits

[fossil hollow]

thats it. thats why theyre so good; their spell list

[echo meteor]

Kind of? I mean, it relies on spell slots, and how fast they burn through them doesnt it?

[tall forge]

And even for single target, you gotta REALLY build into that

[inner silo]

Most casters can do that though. Sorcerers for sure

[silk hare]

remember, just bc anotehr class can THEORETICALLY do more damage in 1 round by using tons of resources and deal nova damage, doesnt mean that class is better

[echo meteor]

you dont throw the final fight where the wizard has all their spell slots

[feral fulcrum]

Better spells, and effects from their subclass that modify how spells function. Example, Evoker which has Spell Sculpt which is "I nuke everyone by my teammates."

[native bronze]

What is a boon?
I'm a beginner so I don't rly know anything lol

[tall forge]

Yeah but wizards just get more

[silk hare]

on average wizards just are BETTER in those quantifiable stats

[exotic sinew]

It’s like a special feat

[silk hare]

I mean sure, but if u intentionally have to LOWER a classes ability like that, what does that say about that class?

[echo meteor]

Is this where they are using a spell slot every turn?

[tall forge]

Concentration spells

[exotic sinew]

But most people don’t make it to level 20 so yea I wouldn’t stress about that too much

[inner silo]

I see. What spells do they get that are better then everyone elses?

[stoic haven]

Tbh, spells are so busted, and in some aspects, Steel wind strike, which is available to all wizards, does 6d10 each target which is an average of 33 damage each, and it is comparable to a fireball of 5th level that does 10d6, which is around 35 damage, but is fire and is a dex save

[native bronze]

Alr thx

[exotic sinew]

What class do you play mostly??

[fossil hollow]

there are sustained spells that deal damage man

[silk hare]

just bc u dont want to allow for that class to outclass and limit them of your own volition, doesnt take away from the fact that wizards are objectively (speaking in terms of optimization) better than all other classes, and its not even close

[feral fulcrum]

Epic Boons are late game feats with extreme effects. (At least in 2024 where they're not a complete joke.)

In 2014 don't even bother with Boons, most of them are outperformed by Regular feats, or low level class features.

[echo meteor]

That you need to design your fights in a way so that its not a 1 and done deal but series of multiple fights that drain the parties resources overtime

[fossil hollow]

wizards still have multiple spell slots.

and its not like you are nova-ing every time

[silk hare]

alright sure, at that point the other resources are drained too

namely HP, hit dice, martial dice etc for the amrtial classes too

at which point wizards still deal the msot damage

[echo meteor]

Martial classes like Fighters, Rogues, Warlocks are good with short rest

[tall forge]

Plus can regain some on a short rest

Plus can save on resources by using cantrips

Plus can concentrate on spells so 1 spell could last an entire combat

[inner silo]

Martials also have many more magic items they can benefit from

[fossil hollow]

magic items which are reliant on being handed out

[exotic sinew]

Have you ever played a full caster before?? Or a wizard. From the way you speak it doesn’t seem like it

[silk hare]

right, so once again, if you look at the CLASSES and calculations in a Vacuum, wizards objectively leave everything in the dust,

wizards are still the most versatile class dealing the most damage etc etc

[echo meteor]

its limited on how much they can regain, Martial classes are just as good in the first fight as well as 5th after a short resst

[stoic haven]

Only thing that can somewhat compete with Wizards on spell slots is sorcerer

[inner silo]

A good dm will give martials magic items if they start being outclassed by casters

[silk hare]

goes both ways

[fossil hollow]

:V

[echo meteor]

Which is why you drain the spell slots

[exotic sinew]

I feel like it’s common knowledge that wizards are probably the strongest class in dnd

[silk hare]

I get the feeling you just dont WANT to understand sth and keep not taking everything thats been said into account

[tall forge]

I already said how they could conserve them incredibly easily

[feral fulcrum]

The only things they have access to that Wizards don't are Martial magic weapons (Big woop, most of them either have spell like effects, or just do slightly more damage. And rely on Extra Attack), and Armor (also big whoop.)

[stoic haven]

Sustained damage and just range of choices, yes

[silk hare]

the fact you HAVE TO INTENTIONALLY drain a classes resources to make it an even battlefield (not even hella outlcassed) says A LOT about how good that class is

[echo meteor]

Well, the game isnt being run in a "vaccum"

[inner silo]

There are more magic items that can benefit a fighter then a wizard as far as i remember, but it's true that many dms most likely hand out every player an equal amount of magic items

[silk hare]

• a ton of magic items exist that let u cast stuff without spell slots

[fossil hollow]

it does look like a bit of goalpost moving too

[stoic haven]

Funniest thing is when people point out AMF, Dispel Magic and Counterspell

[tall forge]

You sure make it sound like it is

[silk hare]

even if its an unequal amount its not that big of a deal

[inner silo]

They rely on extra attack because fighters and other martials do get extra attack

[stoic haven]

And lots of good ones require spellcaster attunement,

[echo meteor]

No, thats just how the classes are designed. Martial classes are good after the 11th fight, after a short rest...
Full casters need to portion their spell slots

[silk hare]

sure, but your "well I just drain this class of its resources in particular before anything happens" also isnt the use case

[inner silo]

I know, but it's something at least. There could sometimes be a reason to play a martial

[silk hare]

cantrips exist, and if the players know u do that theyll just, stay back and not engage maybe?

[tall forge]

“Dnd isnt run in a vacuum”

“Ok just drain their spell slots”

Thats not ALWAYS an option

[feral fulcrum]

Such as wanting to play a Martial.

[silk hare]

ure, so do a lot of the strong martial items tho

[tall forge]

Thats the vacuum your arguments stuck in

[fossil hollow]

saying you need to bleed a class out of resources to make it not as good is a bit... of a point

[inner silo]

The main reason

[wintry spindle]

You guys talking about the adventuring day?

[fossil hollow]

thats like, the norm anyway

[echo meteor]

Yes, so its more nuanced.. its not ALWAYS op

[tall forge]

It still pretty much is

[fossil hollow]

ok, this is just going in circles

[tall forge]

Bc the spellcaster is usually saving spellslots FOR THAT BIG ENCOUNTER

[wintry spindle]

It tells you in the DMG the game isnt designed for one encounter per long rest

[feral fulcrum]

All these Radius's make a Circle.

[exotic sinew]

Without casters you are just a dude with a shiny stick that will fall over

[stoic haven]

But anyways, whats yalls favored length of an adventuring day

[silk hare]

even with 3 or 4 encounters wizards can still easily outclass martials

[fossil hollow]

how bout we extend that circle with some circle magic

[silk hare]

but yes, this is going in circles

[tall forge]

Theres a reason why most tier 4 bosses have partial magic immunity

[feral fulcrum]

I'm glad they finally brought that back.

[tall forge]

Its bc magic is strong, and thats ok

[echo meteor]

great! they are good at rationing their spellslots

[wintry spindle]

I usually run 2 normal encounters and one tactical late stage and also some fun rp encounters

[tall forge]

So…. Back at the main thing. Theyre dealing more damage than the martials still

[fossil hollow]

ok, this literally sounds like:
"A gun isnt op because you have limited bullets"

[exotic sinew]

Imagine playing a game where even martial subclasses can wield magic and having magic being weak. That would be dumb

[echo meteor]

Not if they are spamming out their spellslots like a magic machinegun

[silk hare]

not even "a gun" but "an assortment of different guns"

[fossil hollow]

ok, were back in the ouroboros, can we move on

[tall forge]

“Not if they play dumb”

[silk hare]

okay, which no one will do if they know u run your games like that...

[tall forge]

And if the martial threw all their weapons theyd be pretty bad too

[stoic haven]

Ouroboros?

[echo meteor]

playing smart benefits everyone

[silk hare]

"spell casters are the worst classes in the game if they jsut burn all their spell slots immediately after they wake up!!!!!"

[fossil hollow]

going in an infinite circle

[stoic haven]

Oh ok, that's what I thought

[exotic sinew]

Don’t look at my monk like that he is perfectly fine with his slaps

[silk hare]

its often depicted as a snake eating its own tail

[tall forge]

And if a martial and a spell caster played equally smart, the spellcaster can do more. Thats the point

[wintry spindle]

I think you can balance the adventuring day however you want, but if 2/4 players benefit from 1 encounter then long rest then the other players might be sidelined

[inner silo]

Tbh the caster vs martial debate is pretty pointless as of course the guy who can bend reality and do magic stuff will be stronger then a just above average person with a sword

[silk hare]

technically a mythological snake being/ deity iirc

[stoic haven]

Oh I know Ouroboros, was confused at the context

[fossil hollow]

i was using him as a metaphor

anyway, next topic, how do dragons taste

[stoic haven]

Yea, I use Ouroboros in one of my settings

[tall forge]

Like… their…

[silk hare]

depends on the dragon ig

[fossil hollow]

if you cook and eat em

[inner silo]

Like very rough lizards probably

[wintry spindle]

You shouldnt eat dragon they are inteligent

[tall forge]

Anyways, not good

[exotic sinew]

Copper dragons taste like umm copper

[echo meteor]

Well what you would have is that Martial Classes will deal more damage per round in general
Wizards would have more damage in bursts depending on how fast they use their spellslots

[jolly agate]

Aye, Would u eat dwarf?
(General question)

[echo meteor]

and once they run low in slots, their dpr will fall back down

[inner silo]

Isn't everything in faerun intelligent since speak with animals/plants exist?

[silk hare]

and again back to concentration spells....

[tall forge]

Again, already explained how a spellcaster can conserve spell slots and still do massive damage. You are actively ignoring that. Im not arguing this

[echo meteor]

I dont think they can? pretty sure if they ARE conserving spell slots they are just doing cantrips

[tall forge]

Concentration spells

[silk hare]

from what Ive seen thats always how it goes with this person, arguments and rules are laid out, they ignore what was said and circle back to their make believe scenario

[echo meteor]

Which one?

[tall forge]

Any

Anyways, dragons taste bad

[echo meteor]

Im sure theres some broken concentration spells?

[inner silo]

Throwing down a web can do pretty well if your enemies don't do fire damage

[tall forge]

Predators usually dont taste good

[echo meteor]

Webs are AWESOME

[exotic sinew]

I feel like if you are a martial with a big ol sword and I am a wizard with cantrips I can technically keep running away from you and using cantrips and you will eventually die

[inner silo]

And only a level two spell slot

[echo meteor]

Webs dont exactly contribute to DPR

[exotic sinew]

No need to use a spell slot

[tall forge]

They do

Aiding other character’s dpr helps overall dpr

[echo meteor]

The game isnt designed around 1v1 between PC

[silk hare]

again u are ignoring the laid out things, ofc there are spells that DONT DEAL DAMAGE, but they contribute to the fight AND ONTOP OF THAT you have spells which outdamage martials STILL

[inner silo]

Some martials get speed buffs. Some can just use a bow/throw javelines which will do more damage

[echo meteor]

So if you throw down a web, and the fighter swings at the monster... what portion of the damage is attributed to the fighter and what portion to the wizard?
I coudl argue that 100% of that damage came from the fighter

[silk hare]

again, not what I said, u are living in your own head and ignoring what people say to you

[echo meteor]

but anyways, now we are arging action economy, not DPR

[echo meteor]

I meant to reply to this

[tall forge]

Luckily, with the advantage we can tell

If the first roll hit, wizard did nothing

If the advantage hits, the wizard is why it hit

[exotic sinew]

As long as you have ray of frost you should be fine right……. lol 😂

[echo meteor]

Sounds like some weird ass math to put a blame on a class, when in reality they are synergizing and just working together which is what you should be doing in a party

[inner silo]

All the damage dealt by the fighter came from the fighter and all the damage dealt by the wizards cantrips on next turns came from the wizard. Also control was likely mostly on the wizard

[tall forge]

Cool

[echo meteor]

But the damage is done by the fighter

[inner silo]

Trust me, no. Not even close

[inner silo]

On that one turn on which the wizard casts web, sure. Everything next they're also casting cantrips

[echo meteor]

true! but if youy were to add up dpr... how would you add up the dpr of the wizard vs fighter? they BOTH benefit from it

[echo meteor]

they ONLY out damage if they expend spellslots which is my point

[silk hare]

you are intentionally ignoring at least 70% of what people already told u, just to force an argument throught which was badly put together and ignores the stuff people already told u

[inner silo]

I've had this discussion with someone a while ago and casters are just better at everything. Even if martials are cooler most of the time

[tall forge]

They dont but ok 👍

[silk hare]

alright, fighters only outdamage if they engage in melee and die within 4 roudns

HP is a resource too, so whats your point?

[inner silo]

The only thing casters aren't the best at is unarmed fighting

[exotic sinew]

@tall forge going back on our conversation from before what are your banned species if you don’t mind my asking

[silk hare]

all these "what if I ignore A,B,C and D, then surely I win this argument" is leading nowhere

[echo meteor]

no? they just engage and slash 3 times

[tall forge]

Sure, mine are all spelljammer races (obvious reasons)

Changelings (lore reasons) and faewild creatures

[silk hare]

elaborate, Im unfamiliar with that book

[exotic sinew]

Idek what spelljammer is ahaha

[tall forge]

Autognomes, plasmoids, and like 1 more

[echo meteor]

So short rest, healing potions, cure wound?

[silk hare]

source material iirc

[tall forge]

Space sci fi racez

[exotic sinew]

So harengon is allowed 👉👈🥺

[tall forge]

Id usually allow that yeah

[echo meteor]

I agree wizards are strong but not cause of their damage

[inner silo]

Healing potions are expensive, cure wounds is a spell and short rests are often limited to 2 as far as I've seen or just can be unavalible

[echo meteor]

they have really good control suite

[exotic sinew]

Ah hell yea the rabbits are amazing lol 😂

[tall forge]

(Except the maths been done already, they do more damage mathmatically)

[inner silo]

Not only* cause of their damage

[echo meteor]

Wut? healing potions r expensive now?

[silk hare]

see, you are doing it again, fighters dont usually have access to cure wound, they need spellcasters for that, so for your argument of "a wizard has to burn a spell slot every turn" (which they dont have to), this is invalid, healing potions are not sth thats class specific, bc there exist items that also let u recover spell slots/ use spells without using spell slots

short rest, sure, but within "11 fights" they wont have the hit dice left without other means of healing

[echo meteor]

They have access to healiong potions and Short Rest OR their party's cleric's cure wound

[exotic sinew]

Night night all you nerds (it’s okay I am one as well)

[tall forge]

All furry races that are just animal people (not half or half) i allow

[inner silo]

I play in two campaigns right now. In one of them the dm is giving us a ton of gold so we can get a lot of healing potions. About 6 on a good adventuring day. But in my other campaign they're pretty expensive at 1-2 per day

[tall forge]

I also dont allow centaurs, but thats more a logistic thing

[limber trail]

martial dashes, catches up, now you're within 5ft and provoke an opportunity attack

[silk hare]

"hey, lets discuss how a class is better than another, but Ill give the one class restrictions + give the other class an optimal setup with OTHER CLASSES so they can even perform, look at me"

[inner silo]

What's wrong with centaurs?

[echo meteor]

???

[tall forge]

Stairs

Rope

[glad arch]

Very strong upper body

[tall forge]

Any incline above jumping distance

[silk hare]

monkey body strength, duh

[echo meteor]

high DPR only happens if you burn all or spellslots... IF you burn all your spellslots, you lose the high dpr

im not giving any restrictions, that just restriction of the class

[silk hare]

you keep circling back to the same argument, which was disproven at least 4 times

[shy girder]

Hello!

[tall forge]

If you ignore any concentration spells that last an entire combat and do high damage*

[echo meteor]

show me the disproof

[inner silo]

Martials traded power for badass looks

[shy girder]

I m a new player

[silk hare]

literally in the message above yours

[glad arch]

Welcome

[silk hare]

I can get behind that lol

[echo meteor]

your aruging web is doing more damage even though web deals 0 damage

[inner silo]

Hi new player

[echo meteor]

and what does this have to do with chronurgy wizard?

[tall forge]

My argument is that tensers transformation with a magic item lets me deal more damage than the barbarian

[silk hare]

that was 1 thing said by 1 out of 5 people before, u are hyperfocusing on a little tidbit again while disregarding the other 80% of what was laid out to you?

like I dont get how u navigate a conversation like that?

[tall forge]

And tensers sucks

[echo meteor]

So is that the Wizard doing more damage? or the barbarian?

[inner silo]

Web incapasitates enemies, allowing you to make melee enemies essential waster 1 or even multiple turns to get out of it. And if your martials help my pushing your enemies back into it the combo will be even better

[echo meteor]

lol that spell DOES suck 😛

[tall forge]

And with that, we have proven you dont play wizard

[echo meteor]

Ya, but i wouldnt attribute that to one vs other... i'd attribute that to party synergy... not "Wizard OP"

[inner silo]

Tensers floating disc is peak though

[inner silo]

True. But it is the wizard only using 1 2nd level spell

[shy girder]

Lol

[echo meteor]

Yeah, but wizard cant do it by himself.. he is buffing his martial class by working together

[shy girder]

Just I m not English, so my English can be bad sometime

[silk hare]

tbh its pointless to keep arguing this if one person keeps hyperfocusing only on 1 aspect or the semantics of a message while disregarding everything else

[echo meteor]

i mean, its in every TTRPG or even any tactics game in general

[silk hare]

they can... they just need 1 extra turn?

if you had a party of 5 wizards, 1 casts web, the rest spam cantrips

[echo meteor]

both martials and the wizards are blasting together, the martial woudl be dealing more dameg

[silk hare]

compared to a party of 1 wizard 4 martials, thats still way better?

[echo meteor]

yeah, they are working together. YES.. a martial would deal more damage though

[native bronze]

What feats should I get if I'm going for utility?
I'm using artificer class for context

[inner silo]

Don't forget the wizard can be a bladesinger with all the fighters martial capabilities and all the wizards spell progression

[silk hare]

agian, thats just INCORRECT, once again

[echo meteor]

Wut? bladesingers are squish af

[tall forge]

Dude you dont play spellcasters

[severe rampart]

Probably Magic Initiate? or the Skilled Feat

[inner silo]

Crazy high ac and a decent con will get you covered

[silk hare]

then u built them wrong, just bc u dont know about a class capabilities and how to play them doesnt mean u can keep spouting nonsense

[stone tundra]

Won’t they get AC based off their int

[inner silo]

Spellblades are just much MUCH better martials

[echo meteor]

their hit dice is soo low, lower max hp... Roll a Dex Save and deal damage

[silk hare]

??????

[tall forge]

28 ac

[uncut zenith]

Bladesingers are “squish” in the sense that they don’t have a lot of HP due to being a wizard. But they’re good at avoiding getting hit, which makes them… not “squish”.

[tall forge]

Then immediately cast “absorb elements”

[echo meteor]

Does "Toll the Dead" spell care about high AC?

[tall forge]

Counterspell

[echo meteor]

what about "Fireball"?

[tall forge]

Counterspell

[limber trail]

toll the dead is a wisdom save, which wizards are generally quite good at

[silk hare]

literally same argument for martials

[inner silo]

They have a a bit lower hp in exchange for the full spell casting of a caster. They can get haste for +2 ac, advantage on dex saves and a second action. They can use shadow blade to make their weapon even stronger. There are so many possibilities with bladesingers

[echo meteor]

Too bad Martials dont have d6 as their hit dice! 🤣

[limber trail]

Nor do wizards

[inner silo]

It's d6 for wizards

[echo meteor]

woops typo

[silk hare]

how is the hit dice relevant for this?

[echo meteor]

Hit dice determines how much hp you get per level

[silk hare]

"oh no, less average healing on short rest"

but guess who didnt even get hit

[tall forge]

Take the tough feat

[inner silo]

Having lower hp does mean they're a bit squishier. But then again, full spellcasting

[silk hare]

see, you are ignoring sth that was said literally 10 messages ago once again

[tall forge]

Dont get hit.

If you het hit, use one of your 30 spells to ignore that damage

[silk hare]

doesnt matter if u dont really get hit

[stone tundra]

Yeah wizards are pretty flexible on what feats they benefit from, tough wouldn’t be that bad for them and it’s even easier to get with 2024 backgrounds

[inner silo]

Yup

[uncut zenith]

Low HD only matters if the character can’t avoid taking damage. And Bladesingers are very good at not taking damage to begin with

[inner silo]

Fr, just be a farmer

[echo meteor]

lol yaa, but at that point ur not really playing ur bladesinger as a martial in the front line, but in the backlines... like a wizard 🤣

[tall forge]

And its FINE that spellcasters are a stronger than martials

[echo meteor]

which is my point

a blade singer isnt a martial

[inner silo]

And we're only talking about the strongest caster class. Almost all caster classes have a gish subclass that's leagues above any martial

[tall forge]

But they are, and saying otherwise is not helpful

[tall forge]

Literally is

[echo meteor]

i just told u why they arent 🤣

[inner silo]

It's a gish

[limber trail]

Nobody is saying that. Bladesingers avoid damage by not getting hit, from blocking attacks with their high AC

[echo meteor]

Peach is apparently

[tall forge]

Cool, your wrong tho but thats ok 👍

[silk hare]

like my dude, I dont get what you are saying? martials (without DM given magic items) cap out at like 22 AC maybe

[tall forge]

I said dont get hit

[echo meteor]

okay buddy w/e ya say

[limber trail]

I’m disagreeing with you my guy

[silk hare]

bladesinger has 28 + other stuff + its ONE CLASS ONLY, and just bc they cant ALWAYS (yes they actually usually can) outmartial the martial, doesnt mean that they are not doing more damage if u play one of the better wizard classes

[echo meteor]

i was responding to "nobody is saying that" and i was pointing at peach that was saying that

[inner silo]

21 iirc. Plate+shield+defensive fighting style

[tall forge]

Literally never said a bladesinger should be in the backline

[silk hare]

yeah, typo whoops xD

[inner silo]

Np

[limber trail]

What do you think “don’t get hit” means

[echo meteor]

thats what i said, cause they squish af

[tall forge]

Yeah, they are frontliners

Bladesingers infact EXCEL at frontlining

[echo meteor]

lol i've played them, they squish af

[tall forge]

Shoulda used your 28 ac

[uncut zenith]

Bladesinger isn’t a classic martial, no. Because they are primarily a caster by virtue of being a wizard. That doesn’t mean they’re incapable of being a frontliner tho

[limber trail]

I’ve also played them, no they ain’t

[silk hare]

like at this point u gotta be ragebaiting, you are blatantly wrong, 7 different people have told u why you are wrong, you refuse to even CONSIDER the things they told u and circle back to already disproven arguments

[feral fulcrum]

They're not that squishy.

[tall forge]

Or your 5 spells on a reaction to reduce damage

[echo meteor]

28AC isnt that great if a fireball is heading straight for ur face

[feral fulcrum]

High AC potential, and don't get me started on stacking that with Mirror Image.

[tall forge]

Counterspell it
Absorb elements it

Plenty of options there, buddy

[feral fulcrum]

Stack Dex, and as Peach said, they've got Reaction spells to shrug off even failed damage saves.

[limber trail]

Do you think being in the backline is preventing that fireball from hitting you?

[tall forge]

Infact, the frontline is better bc usually fireballing you means fireballing the enemies

[silk hare]

his arguments for "caster bad" arent even making sense, if someone gets hit by a spell that needs a save, fighters are not exempt???

[uncut zenith]

Also worth remembering that unless your DM is out to get you, not a lot of enemies are gonna have things like Fireball at the ready

[pliant sapphire]

They have more HP

[echo meteor]

prolly not, but whose gonna fireball 1 guy

[tall forge]

Most AOEs are safer to deal with in the front lines

[tall forge]

Whose gonna fireball the guy infront of them

[uncut zenith]

If you’re saying Bladesinger is bad because of one spell, your argument is heavily skewed

[silk hare]

okay? they are also getting hit more and get pummeled in melee (which even in T1-T2 often have +4 or higher to hit)

[limber trail]

I’ve seen more players get caught in a bad AoE by being away from the party

[feral fulcrum]

"Why does every Goblin on this continent have a Necklace of Fireballs?" "Because I hate you."

[silk hare]

so like, if even thats an argument AGAINST martials

[echo meteor]

what are we even arging against?

[glad arch]

+4 is low in t2 tbh

[tall forge]

Frontlining is optimal for bladesingers

[echo meteor]

i dindt say bladesinger was bad, i just said it is squishy

[silk hare]

yeah that was more for the T1 (like very very early game)

[tall forge]

And youre wrong about them being squishy

[echo meteor]

pretty sure they are squishy lol

[silk hare]

as 5 different people have told u and also WHY they arent

[uncut zenith]

Either way. If you’re saying they’re squishy because of Fireball, your argument is skewed

[tall forge]

Dude you don’t understand dnd math and thats ok

[feral fulcrum]

And the rest of us are pretty confident they're not.

[silk hare]

you just keep saying "nuh uh, I think they are" with nothing to back it up but arguments that are not even arguing your point

[glad arch]

Why yall trying to convince the guy that doesnt wanna be convinced again?

[tall forge]

Health doesnt matter bc they never get hit

[echo meteor]

just use a Dex save cantrip or a wis save

[inner silo]

I'm playing with a blade singer right now and they're pretty crazy. They don't do way less weapon damage then my rogue while being able to cast spells

[silk hare]

I wouldnt say not understanding math is "ok"

[tall forge]

Dnd math specifically

[silk hare]

on idea, trying to educate people??

[echo meteor]

ur doing the same thing lol

[limber trail]

Pickle I’m convinced you’re here to ragebait the server 24/7

[echo meteor]

i dindt say that lol

[silk hare]

no, Im laying out WHY the things I say are the case

[glad arch]

I mean yall do you but at some point you gotta release some people dont wanna be educated. They just wanna be right

[echo meteor]

nice attempt at strawmanning

[limber trail]

I vividly remember it

[feral fulcrum]

No, pretty sure we've backed up our claims with examples and evidence while your sole contribution has been "Nuh uh."

[silk hare]

yeah tbh Im also bored and I like arguing, or having a debate really

[echo meteor]

you're strawmanning it lol

[silk hare]

so to some extent its fun to me

[tall forge]

No, we are countering your points dude

Wizard (bladesinger) has a high dex, and proficiency in wis saving throws

There are no dex save cantrips, but if you mean spells those are AOE and would hit anyone. Bladesinger can reduce that damage, unlike a martial like fighter

[glad arch]

Fair enough

[echo meteor]

yes, read the WHOLE thing, i said small wizards suck if you want to use spells like "Thunder Step"

[uncut zenith]

Plenty of people have shown you examples as to how they’re not squishy and all you’ve been saying is “but they are, throw a fireball at them and tell me otherwise”

[echo meteor]

and they do

[tall forge]

They will not take as much damage than a martial will, so the HP point is MOOT

[echo meteor]

no, you said that i said "Small wizards suck".

i added a condition in there

[limber trail]

(I hate to be see as even remotely on p*ckle’s side but to briefly offer a correction, there are Dex save cantrips - sacred flame is the main one I can think of)

[tall forge]

Oh my b i thought that was wisdom save

Maybe acid splash is too?

[silk hare]

still wizards usually have decent Dex, same as any martial (unless its specifically rogues or dexadins or sth)

[inner silo]

Fighter is better then a wizard at wearing heavy armour😎

[limber trail]

Usually 100%

[tall forge]

Dex is the stat literally every class wants

[shell quarry]

lighting a cigar w/ sacred flame

[silk hare]

not even, as a lot of wizard builds MC into sth that gives them proficiency

[tall forge]

Fun fact! RAW you can’t!

[inner silo]

Mc is cheating here as we're talking about pure classes

[tall forge]

anyways, i ban blades bladesingers and chronurgy wizards

[silk hare]

true true, mb xD

[tall forge]

Bc god i dont need a stronger wizard

[inner silo]

Np

[inner silo]

What about graviturgy?

[tall forge]

Ehhhh

[woven flint]

Graviturgy Wizard is incredibly weak

[tall forge]

On one hand, its really weak

[inner silo]

Dang

Is this how we make wizards as good as other casters though?

[tall forge]

On the other hand, i could make a great reason to ban them all by saying “no critical roll classes/subclasses”

[inner silo]

If we don't give them subclasses

[feral fulcrum]

Banning bladesingers make me sad. Because that limits my Mage-fighter dreams to Eldritch Knight, Which doesn't get the really cool Wizard spells. 🙁 (And sucked in 2014)

[limber trail]

I’m sometimes very tempted to do this

[tall forge]

No i fully understand this

[uncut zenith]

I just ban Chronurgy/Graviturgy by virtue of them being Exandria content, and I don’t typically allow setting specific content if we’re not playing in said setting. And I don’t typically run campaigns in Exandria.

[limber trail]

I love critical role, I do not love critical role homebrew

[tall forge]

On other news

[inner silo]

I like gravity magic

[tall forge]

I ban echo knight

[woven flint]

Who doesn't?
It's pretty reasonable

[tall forge]

Just saying i dont only bully wizards

[feral fulcrum]

I've yet to see anything from Mercer that wasn't unbalanced as heck.

[tall forge]

Its either incredibly weak or incredibly strong

[limber trail]

It’s all just kinda weird

[inner silo]

Are there any subclasses you buff?

[tall forge]

Its wild how none of them make a balance

[limber trail]

It has that homebrew feel to it

[silk hare]

anythign ranger related tbh

[uncut zenith]

Mercer didn’t design Graviturgy, Chronurgy, or Echo Knight

That said, I’m not a fan of his design philosophy either

[feral fulcrum]

2014 Arcane Archer. Because it was...I'm going to be real, whoever limited it to two uses then it's dead was an idiot and shouldn't have ever been on the design team.

[inner silo]

What's his design phylosophy?

[inner silo]

How many arrows do you give them?

[tall forge]

Ok but to give him credit, hes no longer a “real dm”

Not in a gatekeepy way, but hes an entertainer

[quasi glade]

Doesn't it get more as you level up? or was that only new options?

[uncut zenith]

He likes to create classes with a lot of malus design, like Blood Hunter

[tall forge]

Critical role isnt dnd how most people play it, its propped up by professionals trying to make it entertaining

[feral fulcrum]

It only got like one more at like 17th level or something stupid like that. It was TRASH

[quasi glade]

Probably scale it with prof or a spell casting mod

[tall forge]

Like all dnd podcasts

[uncut zenith]

Malus design meaning you have to explicitly take a detriment for a mediocre benefit. Like how BH has to sacrifice HP for some mid benefits.

[tall forge]

Bloodhunter my beloved, so cool in concept but horrid in execution

[inner silo]

I feel like graviturgy is a bit underrated

[tall forge]

Ive played it once and felt like i couldnt use any of my mildly ok features

[uncut zenith]

They’re not mutually exclusive. He was a “real DM” long before he was an entertainer.

[feral fulcrum]

AH, looking back on it, it was 15th Level, and you get ONE shot back if you have none at the start of Iniatitive.

[tall forge]

Yesnt, you can see the story becoming extra “entertainment focused” as it continued

Its just the dnd podcast situation

[woven flint]

I can't escape Matt Mercer even in Videogames!
He voices Cassidy in Overwatch
He voices Drifter in Deadlock
I'm sure he's been in more videogame wise, but, hes also been in a lot of my favorite shows... damn you, MERCER!!! (silly)

Get out of my skin!!!

[feral fulcrum]

You get two uses of it for the entire game. They regain on a short rest, but you're still missing the entire point of your subclass if you use it twice in a fight. Which was Stupid. And the only passive benfit was a cantrip and profficiency up until 7th level when...you basically just get a Magical Bow for the purposes of bypassing damage to nonmagical attacks. Which by then you should already have a Magical Bow, making it pretty pointless.

[tall forge]

Tho i misunderstood your original argument, so mine is kinda pointless

[stone tundra]

Cthulhu by torchlight

[inner silo]

Well it's level 6 feature can be good control. And 1st level feature could be sometimes useful. You at least get a subclass, some subclasses don't exist

[uncut zenith]

We’re not talking about the stream though, we’re talking about his homebrew philosophy

[tall forge]

Ye i realized

Thats my b

[jolly agate]

Alr so ma DM accepted my idea of my warlock cow that's the child of a Cow Headed Minotaur and a Cow Legged Centaur but looks like a regular cow and talks like a regular cow and it's just kinda a regular highland cow whit a hat and eldrich powers

but now the druid on our party wants to be a lizzard

[quasi glade]

So which way is it to find a DM or a game to play in online here? I joined the server without ever checking around admittedly

[jolly agate]

i think im startin something

[idle oar]

Please read #find-a-game carefully as it explains how to use our Looking For Game channels

[quasi glade]

Starting a game you mean?
Also, Viktor profile picture, based.

[jolly agate]

Nah, maybe yall will want to be cool magic animals whit hats

The session is still in the planning stages tho

[jolly agate]

thx mate

[quasi glade]

I prefer being a humanoid race but hey if you wanna be animals with hats all the more creative power to you 😆

[jolly agate]

i mean my dnd party

(my nerdy aaah friends)

[quasi glade]

Sounds fun

[stray sage]

what would you say is your favorite D&D outer plane?

[uncut zenith]

My party had a pretty fun time in Ysgard in my last campaign

[minor cargo]

Mechanus! Surround me with my weird lil' Modron guys.

[uncut zenith]

I don’t think I have a favorite though, they’re all capable of some fun adventures

[limber trail]

I’ve always wanted to explore Pandemonium a bit in an adventure

[dark pewter]

Ysgard was the first time I ever TPK'd a party of mine, good memories

[stray sage]

for me my personal favorite is Carceri, mostly because the concept of a prison dimension is quite cool and i think the demodands deserve to come back (maybe with a better name)

[short reef]

Haii!! I really wanna try and run a campaign in the future as a DM, but I have NEVER been a DM in DnD before and I've watched a few videos. Does anyone (a seasoned DM maybe) maybe wanna take me under their wing and help me understand and share tips and tricks with me? ><
Just so that maybe in the future i can reach my goal of becoming a DM ! :3

[stray sage]

i really like the idea of the demodands being philosophers of despair. They are in essence nihilism manifest, reveling in the destruction of hope and purpose.

[still plover]

Near-endless tunnels of twisting rock, sharp to the touch. Never a flat plane beneath your feet, incessant howling wind that carries far-off words you could almost make out if you tried (you shouldn't).

And once every so often, an opening to another plane.

[jolly agate]

I like Arcadia

[terse ledge]

I personally prefer Equestria /j

[buoyant oar]

I would have to say Baator or Acheron are my go to planes

[iron herald]

I'm too preoccupied to do so, but I'll at least provide a little advice here. A lot of being a good DM comes down to being good at talking with your friends and being able to come up with ideas and answers on the spot. A lot of this comes down to life experience in general; keep doing new things in life to grow your capabilities over time.

For just starting out, keeping your games simple will help. You'll grow into the elaborate plots as you DM more games. Don't be afraid to try some off-the-shelf adventures to start with, and improvise when you need to.

[knotty vine]

I still want a BG3 book of magic items

[still plover]

Scrape the BG3 wiki?

[still plover]

Aha, here we go!

• Five Room Dungeon method
• Situation, location, opposition, complication
• have a random name list to hand
• start small, build as you need
• take notes
• stay hydrated
• do character creation in Session Zero
• don't forget safety tools

[humble cairn]

The Griffon's Saddlebag third party book has a lot of really neat items.

[lucid escarp]

1. random locations "there is a cave on your way.. do you want to go in" or "something unexpected happened on your journey" and then something on the street happens
2. dont let someone roll if it cant succeed , intimidation on a king wont work so dont let them roll
3. dont say " you failed your roll of X" instead react to the result "your vicious mockery just makes the trader angry"
4. never ever say "what are you going to do" , this sentence implies "doing" something and kills all role play chances as everyone just says what they do
5. you can roll for how much success something has instead of fail vs success, a bard can play guitar and has expertise so he wont play bad, if he rolls bad perf he just doesnt get as much money

6. passive perception/insight basically tells the dm "you are not fockin blind"... if i go in a city i will find a tavern, no need for rolls

[ebon silo]

Pugilist class is the best class for a beginner

…that was sarcasm btw

[lucid escarp]

7. random events with your players makes the story, not you " a DM doesnt build a world he just weaponizes it"

[small heath]

As a beginner for the 1st time with no knowledge of the game back in November 2025, I recommend that all brand new beginners try sorcerer!

||(this is sarcasm don't make my mistake I got so confused for like, 6 sessions in a row. But it's still really fun if you're patient and love being a magic dude ❤️ )||

[lucid escarp]

8. everyone can play what they want, if they dont min max its your job to balance it

[ebon silo]

With pugilist i can roleplay venom

With the dread hand subclass🗿

[fast latch]

I can help

[lucid escarp]

9. saying no means no

[small heath]

That's interesting as I was thinking of making a warlock subclass where your patron is stuck to your body/soul so you have this entity living in your body, like a venom parasite

Maybe I can look at that subclass for ideas on how to structure it.

[ebon silo]

I been playing dnd for 2 years now a d pugilist class takes a ton of resources management, even a little intimidating

[small heath]

Every campaign I've been doing I try to change my class and try out new stuff.

First I was a sorcerer, then a fighter. I added on a ranger for my 3rd one and for this upcoming 4th one I want to try barbarian

My sorcerer one just ended so the DM for that is making preparations for his next one in a few weeks.

[jolly agate]

Wait u can do that???. Damn, My DM never let us get another class mid campaign. Maybe a second one or a subclass, but never change the primary class

[small heath]

I'm in different campaigns

[ebon silo]

If the character im playing now dies which would not surprise me since is the eve of ruin campaign and our dm showing us no mercy, im going either a dread hand or oath of the genie paladin

[small heath]

with different DMs (but it's really one big giant social network)

I somehow joined a friend who is with a group of people where everyone kind of have their own campaigns so there is overlap of players in each one.

It works because I can feel comfortable trying out new classes with people I am familiar with.

[knotty pasture]

Usually if your character dies your DM would allow you to bring a new one into the table, you can change class then

[small heath]

^^ I had a friend who's monk died so they made a warlock in the sorcerer campaign I finished up

[knotty pasture]

Obviously don't make it blatant by rushing to your death the moment you find your current class boring

[jolly agate]

That's good to know, now I can simply break a vase while looking for money and see if I accidentally release an interdimensional Eldritch deity like last time.

[knotty pasture]

My way of doing it is to try and create a noble sacrifice moment

Like in a slightly challenging fight you can pretend you are doing this for the greater good and sacrifice yourself

[small heath]

Why not accidentally steal a lich's philactory?

[knotty pasture]

Your table will think you're a pretty good guy and you get your class change

[jolly agate]

Or insult the gods many times in a row until a random event occurs and I get struck by lightning.

There's SO many options to die

[terse ledge]

myself and the DMs I play with have allowed a complete and total class change under specific circumstances - if a big story moment happens, a class change can make total sense, and sometimes the player just isn't having as much fun with their current class as they'd like, or they realized far too late that there's a class/subclass that fits their character far better than what they originally chose

[sharp island]

Can somone explain a Paladin?
Cause I wanna make a charcter (not for dnd but in general)

[still plover]

Yeah, class change after like session two has got to be a story thing. You don't get to flip for the asking. Show us how your character has changed.

[terse ledge]

for instance, the first campaign I was ever part of, which is still running to this day over 2 years later, my character was raised by a dragon, but I chose Battle Master Fighter as my class with a Dex-based build, but only much later learned that Drakewarden Ranger was a thing

Drakewarden was obviously much more fitting for the character, I just didn't know it was an option when I first made the character

[glad arch]

A mix between melee and spellcasters. Small amount of spell slots and spell list but can use their spell slot on divine smites giving big damage. They get 2 attacks at level 5 like martials, a fighting style to start out with as well as all armor/weapon proficiencies and a d10 (2nd highest) hit dice

General paladin vibes is usually a noble knight kind of character but thats not required. You do however have an oath based on your subclass which you need to follow

[brisk gate]

Ay

[terse ledge]

Paladins are basically a full martial class with holy warrior flavor, and a handful of magic spells to make them more terrifying than the Fighter

[tall forge]

Yeah

Its only nerf is the fact itll run out of resources (just multiclass into sorceror)

[terse ledge]

or multiclass into Warlock

get some spell slots back on every short rest

[glad arch]

Id say being quite MAD is a paladin downside too

[tall forge]

Mildly, most dont get charisma if youre just a pure paladin

[glad arch]

Between str/dex, con and charisma

[potent vector]

They gain powers from their Oaths, to enact the tenets of those Oaths.

A good example is Stormlight Archives if you've ever heard of it

[sharp island]

Nope

[potent vector]

In DnD canon the power comes from the Outer Planes, the "idea" Planes

[potent vector]

Wdym nope?

[potent vector]

Ah, that you haven't read it, nvm (I just asked ik, mb lol)

[potent vector]

They are in most forms of media, a Vanguard, frontliner and a driving force for their allies to follow into melee with

(making sure they have a lil breathing room)

[crisp orbit]

Question how does the subclass oath of the vengeance Paladin work

[terse ledge]

I was under the impression that a Paladin's power had no real "source" beyond the power of the oath itself

[glad arch]

Be driven to get revenge for something

[potent vector]

Mechanically or flavor wise

[stoic haven]

Oath of Vengeance would be sworn to destroy Evil or no- do - gooders

[terse ledge]

Ne'erdowells

[crisp orbit]

Hmm flavor wise

[crisp orbit]

Ok I got that park but don't they get powers from God's right?

[potent vector]

Nah, they confirmed in PHB it's from the Outer Planes, which makes sense and I think makes it more distinct from Cleric. Since you can humanize it and truly say "Paladins don't need to be religious"

[terse ledge]

i mean, no need for religion for the power to come from the oath itself, particularly an oath sworn to a king, but okie

[potent vector]

Like I said, Outer Planes, so they gain power from the Outer Planes and the idea of vengeance, explained in their Tenants at the start of the subclass

[jolly agate]

Nerds whit oath and a sword. sometimes also a shield

Also heavy cheap armor

[glad arch]

Nerds? Intelligence is the easiest dump stat for paladins lol

[terse ledge]

...where are you getting the idea that Paladins are nerds

the only two Nerd classes are Wizard and Artificer

[jolly agate]

gasp HOW DARE YA

Artificer is goated

[glad arch]

Nerd ≠ bad

[terse ledge]

well, tbf, an argument could be made for Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster, maybe a couple others

[potent vector]

(the fact they need a holy symbol for casting still irks me, and they still have a decent bit of Holy flavor, but its prob enough to flavor out ik, yeah)

[glad arch]

Anyone who steals the wizards spellcasting

[feral fulcrum]

There's even a particular Paladin subclass (Oath of Glory) that's primed for peak "Look at my Gains bro!" Gymbro

[terse ledge]

the year is 2026, nerd is no longer an insult

[stoic haven]

So, I have a fellow player who is playing a barbarian and is dead set on being "The Tank" (Totem Pole Barbarian), and I am trying to be a Paladin with a defender build, how do I not step on toes?

[jolly agate]

Idk i don't like the Oath thing, and Paladins are always so meh

[jolly agate]

Ye im just kiddin

[potent vector]

They literally make gaming chair setup equivalents in Spelljammer

They're nerds

[feral fulcrum]

If you're not JoJo posing as Oath of Glory, are you really Playing Oath of Glory?

[tall forge]

We love our space gaming chair…

[jolly agate]

They can also build cool stuff like MASSIVE hammers for the party barbarian or automotrons, or like this cool big arse robo things that they control and- oh shit ye they are nerds

[glad arch]

Dw, theres plenty of damage to go around

[sly crest]

Now I'm thinking of the egg chair from the OG Sims. I always wanted one of those

[feral fulcrum]

Eventually, the Paladin stopped thinking. (And started Supplexing)

[tall forge]

They never needed to

Theyre (sometimes) gods favorite’est princess

[feral fulcrum]

It was a Jojo reference.

[tall forge]

Never watched it

[terse ledge]

the Oath of Needless Posing

[tall forge]

A sin, i know

[jolly agate]

Wait, a Jojo themed campaign would be cool af

[potent vector]

(Not gonna go into why here, but highly recommend, the next part Steelball Run, is considered on par with One Piece in terms of quality)

[tall forge]

Im interested, but its just been on the list

[cloud mulch]

If I’m making a 2024 race and there is 2014 custom lineage which looks like this:

Creature type. You are a humanoid. You determine your appearance and whether you resemble any of your kin.
Size. You are Small or Medium (your choice).
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Ability Score Increase. One ability score of your choice increases by 2.
Feat. You gain one feat of your choice for which you qualify.
Variable Trait. . You gain one of the following options of your choice:
Darkvision with a range of 60 feet.
Proficiency in one skill of your choice.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and one other language that you and your DM agree is appropriate for your character.

a 2024 would be the same without the asi but will the feat be an origin feat like it is with human in 2025 or would it stay as a regular feat

[potent vector]

Definitely on my list of "Animes as a campaign that actually have an interesting premise"*.

[feral fulcrum]

Sun Soul Monk screaming about Hamon while punching lasers.

[knotty pasture]

Ora ora

[knotty vine]

Isn’t there already astral self

[uncut zenith]

Yeah Astral Self monk is the ultimate JoJo subclass

[jolly agate]

Collage of Glamour bard posing hard af while casting charm on enemys

[tall forge]

Its so fun

[crisp orbit]

Ohh ok bc i want to make a character that has religion trauma so would that still work?

[tall forge]

Got an astral monk in my campaign, and theyre just so cool

Is astral monk in 2024?

[terse ledge]

I've just been reminded of a temporary curse I came up with a while back, for a d6 table of temporary curses that were meant to just encourage roleplay

Curse of the Bizarre Star

You feel compelled to dramatically pose at certain moments, even if it would normally be unwise to do so. You have disadvantage on Stealth and Persuasion checks, and advantage on Intimidation checks. During combat, at the end of your turn, roll a d6. On a 1, you have a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

[potent vector]

Probably even better. I'd suggest looking at the Oaths options to get some ideas. Overall, Paladin's stories should definitely involve why they took up Oaths, why they have a sense of duty to fulfill those tenants.

[stoic haven]

not an updated version, but can play it in 2024

[tall forge]

Man

[terse ledge]

specifically, these temporary curses were designed for an evil Enchantment Wizard's tower

[knotty vine]

I don’t think your suppose to go there

[tall forge]

Subclasses dont hurt as much, but its still sad

[cloud mulch]

Question. For college of eloquence at level 5 you can’t roll lower than a 21 (expertise and max char assumed). How does the the dm work around this? And surely there is very little consequence when you are constantly rolling high

And as a player

What could I do to make every encounter not feel like an auto win

[dark pewter]

Rolling high on Persuasion/Deception doesn't always guarantee success, just increases your favor greatly

[tall forge]

Also, you totally can?

[cloud mulch]

I understand that but it’s difficult to have consequence to your actions when you always roll a 21 or above

[tall forge]

Or is it a 2024 thing

[potent vector]

Players can't convince enemies to do whatever.

Best advice I give is they can't roll Persuasion unless what they want to Persuade them of is already a conflicting argument in their head.

[exotic sinew]

Am I understanding paladin correctly. At level 1 your lay on hands has a “pool” of 5xpaladin level so it’s 5 hit points in the pool. So is that like you can lay on hands one time and only heal 5 hit points until you sleep???

[dark pewter]

Just because you can roll high, doesn't mean NPCs do whatever you want. A high roll can gain you a lot of good favor with someone, but it's by no means mind control.

[atomic kayak]

Persuasion isn't mind control

[potent vector]

Like a offering a thief treasure to betray people might work, but offering a king's knight is probably gonna get you extra punishment in the cells.

[atomic kayak]

NPC attitude (something in both 2014 and 2024) also, in short, prevents you from just using a Cha skill to make a hostile do whatever

[tall forge]

Plus like, what could they possibly be doing to persuade/lie that’s problematic

[cloud mulch]

I get persuasion isn’t mind control but some things in the game are dependent on npcs and roleplay so it’s still difficult to work around being able to respect a 21 on a roll and also understand it’s not mind control

[exotic sinew]

Ain’t gonna lie is that’s how it works lay on hands seems kinda poop

[tall forge]

Just dont ask them to roll

[atomic kayak]

Not to mention ofc: You as the player do not determine if you make a roll or not. The DM does.

You might want to try to use Persuasion on someone. You only make the roll if the DM tells you to.

[tall forge]

If it’s impossible its impossible, plain and simply

[cloud mulch]

I can’t tell if that’s sarcasm

[tall forge]

Its not

[atomic kayak]

You are focusing too hard on the number and completely ignoring the RP side of things

[potent vector]

I mean, it just means that if an NPC has conflicting decisions, the party can steer them to options they find more palatable.

So start giving them more damned if you do damned if you don't options

[crisp orbit]

Thats true its my first time playing a Paladin too so I just wanna make sure thxs btw!

[terse ledge]

I would like to point out an important thing for rolling a check in general, regardless of what sort of check it is

a natural 20 does not guarantee success on a skill check. it guarantees the best possible outcome for that roll, even if that outcome is simply the NPC interpreting the player's attempt to Persuade them into giving away their merchandise for free as a funny joke and offering a 20% discount

[glad arch]

Its a total hp pool, you can heal 5 hp once but you could also heal 3hp one time then 2hp another.

[atomic kayak]

To summarize:

• Persuasion isn't mind control
• The DM tells you when you can roll
• Rolling high does not mean exactly what you want happens
• NPC attitude can affect all of the previous elements
• NPC motivations (something that is pure RP even aside from attitude) also can affect what an NPC is or isn't willing to do

[glad arch]

Full hp pool then resets on long rest

[exotic sinew]

Ohh, so yea idk 🤷 lay on hands seems kinda bad unless I don’t understand it

[glad arch]

Its some good burst healing especially at higher levels

[tall forge]

Its an out of combat heal
Or a last resort

[cloud mulch]

This is what I’m saying. Although not natural a 21 on any check should have a very good outcome but like if that’s the minimum then how does you manage moments like that when the eloquence bard gets that every roll compared to the barbarian who has never rolled high charisma in high life. If the barb rolled a 21 he would have a good outcome so the same should be for the bard but it’s tricky to say when it’s the minimum they can roll

[glad arch]

Lvl 6 paladin being able to heal 30hp in one action can come in clutch

[woven flint]

Lay on Hands is really good because it's an easily expendable resource that doesn't cut into Spell Slots

[tall forge]

Say the paladins out of spell slots, might as well bring the wizard to fill to cast fireball

[tall forge]

Just let the eloquence bard have the same good outcome

[dark pewter]

I mean, it's worth remembering that not everyone in a party can do the same things as effectively as each other. A bard that dedicates ASIs and their subclass to high Persuasion rolls doesn't have the same combat capabilities as the Barbarian.

[tall forge]

Youre misunderstanding, you shouldnt RAISE the dc

[atomic kayak]

My favorite example:

You pester the DM into letting you roll to convince the king to give you his crown (we will ignore the red flags there for a minute). You rolling a natural 20 on saying that the king has to give you his crown is going to prevent you from being tossed in jail or killed. You are not going to get the crown.

[cloud mulch]

Yeah but then he never has a bad outcome and there is very little consequence to his actions

[dark pewter]

It's not a bad thing to be specialized in a unique way. Every party member fills out their role in a way that builds... well, a party.

[tall forge]

He can totally have a bad outcome

[terse ledge]

it being the minimum they can roll doesn't matter unless you're setting the DC to like 28 or something ridiculous like that. even a natural 20 does not guarantee success, no matter what skill or interaction it is, it just guarantees the best outcome

you as the DM decide what that best outcome is

[atomic kayak]

The bard is not always going to be the best person for a scenario. The bard is not always going to be able to roll in a scenario. The bard might not even be present for a scenario.

[cloud mulch]

Okay hyperbole sorry. He would very rarely face a bad outcome in comparison

[potent vector]

At level 1 ofc it's not great, but most people start at 3 (15 pool). And it eventually get pretty substantial. By level 10 it's already at 50. Enough to bring up downed allies frequently and still have a decent heal on the side.

[tall forge]

If he said to the dragon “die” and rolled persuasion and hit that nat 40

The dragon only takes his right arm, instead of killing him

[dark pewter]

If a player is willing to dedicate a significant portion of their build to high Persuasion, then that character gets to be more persuasive, and that's the benefit.

[glad arch]

Being able to split it is also nice to top off allies health during non combat

No dice rolling involved you just know exactly how much youre giving

[tall forge]

Like, its FINE that he never “fails” a deception or charisma

[restive blade]

so i'm making a 2024 barbarian character and i've taken a couple of feats, but the ASI from those feats dont show up on my stat points? it only shows the increase from my background

anyone know why?

[tall forge]

Take the situation and what theyre asking/lying about into consideration

If they only get good outcomes? They built for it, so whatever

[potent vector]

You can narratively work conflicting promises on them too

[dark pewter]

Now, an interesting counterpoint: Someone who always seems to get their way and likes to charm everyone they meet might gain a reputation among others as a smooth talker. And not everyone trusts a person like that, no matter how high you roll.

[potent vector]

Make them pick and choose what they're deciding to influence (with consequences for not siding with someone else)

[cloud mulch]

Tbh it’s not an insane amount of building for it. Level 3 eloquence bards get a minimum 10 on any roll with the standard bard thing of +4 or +5 and expertise in the skill you are still consistently rolling high no matter what

[atomic kayak]

Doesn't matter how much of a smooth talker your bard is

The bandit chief isn't going to respect him. The barbarian that could bury him 12ft under though? She is the one who is going to even be able to make the check

[tall forge]

🤷 its fine, still

I think punishing them for having a feature sucks

[cloud mulch]

Fair enough

That’s my thinking it just is annoying un to balance around because I want the bard to have some consequences

[tall forge]

Give em consequences for what they say then

[terse ledge]

could even be that some conspiracy guy out there in the world starts telling everyone that the PC is some kind of fey, using magic to manipulate the minds of the entire royal court, because how else could they gain so much influence so quickly? and then this leads to a small group of extremist NPCs leading a witch hunt for the PC

[echo meteor]

sounds like a great time for "Charm Person"

[tall forge]

The whole thing is if they say insane stuff, they still get consequences

[cloud mulch]

Yeah

[tall forge]

If they say all the right things, and you hit them with a bad outcome

[echo meteor]

good thing bards have access to "Charm Person"

[tall forge]

Its not “consequences”, its “punishment”

[echo meteor]

You can say all the wrong things and get hit with a good outcome.. because D&D is a game about dice 😭

[atomic kayak]

Great way to immediately start combat sure

Trying to cast a spell in the middle of a conversation is a terrible idea 99/100 times

[atomic kayak]

Especially in such a hostile scenario

[echo meteor]

im pretty sure if it passes, the person becomes charmed

[tall forge]

Dnd 2024 eloquence bard is the context

Cant roll under a 21 in persuasion or deception

[echo meteor]

the bandit leader.. and he starts being friendly

[atomic kayak]

Charmed isnt mind control

And they can see you casting the spell

[tall forge]

The bandit leaders subordinates murder you

[echo meteor]

Im sure he'll hand wave it away if the spell succeeds

[atomic kayak]

They attack you when you start casting the spell. Because you are casting a spell

[terse ledge]

doesn't Charm Person explicitly state that they know you charmed them after the spell ends?

[echo meteor]

isnt the castingt time of the charm person instant?

[cloud mulch]

If they say all the right things and roll high then they shouldn’t get punished. I mean obviously if they are tryna do smthn ridiculous like convince a boss to kill itself thy are gunna suffer but even In situations like those high rolls mean best possible outcomes possibly meaning the boss might find them amusing and spare them or so on

[echo meteor]

eyy! it wont matter while they are charmed!

[atomic kayak]

Not to mention ofc, that it only makes them friendly to the caster, not the whole party

[exotic sinew]

Okay that’s my bad I have never played a paladin but I am trying to make a character that is a paladin and idk what I am doing lol 😂

Lay on hands just seems idk meh but okay okay you convinced me otherwise

[tall forge]

Best possible outcome could be that

Or the boss going “ill kill you last”

[echo meteor]

Easier to convince with a persuation after

[atomic kayak]

No?

[cloud mulch]

Fair

[exotic sinew]

Other than divine smite what other spell should I have prepared as a level 1 paladin? Any recommendations

[atomic kayak]

And still no. Charmed isn't mind control. Being friendly is in no way going to make them more likely to do anything they weren't going to do regardless

[echo meteor]

So they wouldnt spare you/your party if you tried to persuade him after charmed?

[tall forge]

Searing smite, roaring smite, smite smite (jk)

[atomic kayak]

But it doesn't matter regardless, because you would be in combat. Because you tried to cast a spell. In the middle of hostile negotiations.

[cloud mulch]

Also does this stack:

Unsettling Words
Also at 3rd level, you can spin words laced with magic that unsettle a creature and cause it to doubt itself. As a bonus action, you can expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration and choose one creature you can see within 60 feet of you. Roll the Bardic Inspiration die. The creature must subtract the number rolled from the next saving throw it makes before the start of your next turn.

[atomic kayak]

Like I said

[knotty pasture]

1st Level: Bless, Command, Compelled Duel, Heroism, Protection from Evil and Good, Shield of Faith.

[echo meteor]

but you wernet in combat b4 you casted it.. wo would it not be a straight roll?

[tall forge]

The bandit captain’s subordinates would def notice and try to murder yoy

[valid geyser]

shield of faith and bless are nice

[tall forge]

No, theyd see you and combat starts immediately

[echo meteor]

but what if the bandit captain orders them to stop?

[still plover]

"I gotta tax ya. It's just business, you know? Otherwise my boys lose respect, folk get more inclined to make a fuss, someone ends up bloody. So let's have the purse, friend, and you can tell me how you've been."

[dark pewter]

IIRC, you can't be affected by multiple copies of one magical effect at a time

[echo meteor]

but charm person is "instant" casting time

[tall forge]

Doesnt matter

[echo meteor]

it would happen first, THEN the combat

[atomic kayak]

You are casting a spell. They can see you casting the spell. Combat starts because the bandits (including the chief) can see you casting the spell.

[potent vector]

No, same name features never stack unless explicitly said they can.

[echo meteor]

but it happens instantly?

[tall forge]

Thats like saying you should get a fireball for free

[cloud mulch]

Would it stack if I had multiple eloquence bards?

[echo meteor]

???

[tall forge]

Nope

[dark pewter]

Casting a spell isn't instant, it just takes less than six seconds. But you would still be seen preparing to cast the spell

[potent vector]

No, same name feature, same problem

[atomic kayak]

Not how casting works no. That just means the spell happens after 1 action. Actions still occur out of combat. Initiative just tracks the order. As soon as you start casting the spell (a very visible thing) you roll initiative.

They see you start casting, you roll initiative, they attack you.

[cloud mulch]

That would be funny as hell lmao, just put their roll in the floor and hold person them

Or banish

[potent vector]

This is basically old Surprise Rules. Which got removed for a reason lol.

[atomic kayak]

As said. A great way to immediately fail any hostile negotiations is to start casting any sort of spell

[echo meteor]

surprise rules are weird tbh

[terse ledge]

...unless you have the Subtle Spell metamagic and can disguise/do without the verbal and somatic components

[tall forge]

Fireball is also “instantaneous”

[exotic sinew]

And sorry what are the differences between these smites. I thought it was just divine smite lol 😂

[atomic kayak]

Even old surprise rules didn't work that way. Commonly misinterpreted and misused. But still.

[valid geyser]

which is the reason for subtle spell's existence, yes

[tall forge]

Theres a lot of good smites in 2024, i would look em up

[potent vector]

Divine smite used to be a feature, now it's a spell unfortunately. The rest are spells work similarly but have bonus effects tacked on.

[echo meteor]

Old surprise rules actually had you roll intiaitive THEN divided up suprirsed status

[atomic kayak]

indeed, the ability to remove all components (VSM) from a spell is that 1/100 times

[echo meteor]

which i think was better

[atomic kayak]

but anyways

[echo meteor]

guess, metamagic feat is awesome 😛

[atomic kayak]

Sure the bard has charm person. They have now successfully made the scenario even worse.

[valid geyser]

i never cared that much for the extra smite spells.
blinding smite is probably the one i like the best but i havent played a paladin with access to level 3 spells yet

[tall forge]

Plus id argue the boss randomly acting strangely kind is something say, the right hand man would figure out

[echo meteor]

but whats with clerics always trying to cast guidance in the middle of conversations?

[atomic kayak]

Wouldn't even need to. The act of casting itself would be enough for everyone present

[marble lion]

Getting a free firball or charm person in i allow all the time, if the circumstances fit

[tall forge]

Just bringing up the argument of subtle spell

[echo meteor]

idk. i think it wouuld b cool

[marble lion]

A roleplay event starts initiative
That rp event can be an attack

[atomic kayak]

In the middle of combat guidance is generally pretty useless.

In the middle of a conversation, the exact same concept applies. And always has.

Part of the reason that "guidance spam" didn't work half the time

[exotic sinew]

😮 I like both searing and thunderous smite setting my enemy on fire or pretty much doing a Gandalf “you shall not pass” smacking them with my sword and sending them flying away

[marble lion]

But yes charming an enemy leader in an open negotiation is a guarantee for trouble

[atomic kayak]

Cause as said!

[tall forge]

Its pretty cool yeah

[echo meteor]

i meant in middle of conversation 😛

[valid geyser]

usually with guidance spam it was more for dungeon exploration than it was for social encounters

[echo meteor]

Clerics always spam guidance everywhere tho

[atomic kayak]

I wish. People constantly brought it up in regards to using in in conversations as "proof" as to why skills don't matter.

[potent vector]

Shining Smite is very flavorful

[tall forge]

I allow guidance spam in VERY specific conversations, where being seen as holy is good

[marble lion]

Unless you are literally preparing yourself to deliver a concise intimidation persuasion or deception, guidance makes no sense in conversation

[tall forge]

But all is allowed if you rp well enough and all that

[echo meteor]

its usually persuation

[marble lion]

You dont think "now i will try to persuade him"

[valid geyser]

i think the way guidance was nerfed was rly weird. I'd have just preferred like, immunity to guidance for a minute, possibly 10 minutes after using the roll bonus

[echo meteor]

HEYYY baldur's gate allows you to use guidance everywhere

[tall forge]

Baldurs gate isnt dnd

[marble lion]

You say your stuff, and the dm says "roll persuasion" to see how good it landed

[echo meteor]

😛

[marble lion]

You cant guidance it because it already happened

[atomic kayak]

Retroactive guidance was another factor yes

[marble lion]

Imagine being in a job interview for 30 minutes, and then getting guidance cast on you after

Why would guidance make any difference?

[echo meteor]

Heyy, people retrotactively use Heroic Inspiration ALL THE TIME

[marble lion]

Not at my table

[atomic kayak]

Heroic Inspiration is retroactive, inherently. You choose to spend it after rolling

[marble lion]

Unless im misunderstanding

[tall forge]

Technically heroic inspo lets you reroll after the result

[atomic kayak]

Guidance is quite literally "you have to do it before you roll"

[tall forge]

Its intended

[echo meteor]

did they change it in 2024? it used to be that you have to choose it BEFORE the roll in 2014

[swift wren]

Guidance spam is horrible, just talk to you players to make it less stressful

[marble lion]

I didnt mean after the roll, i meant after the action

[valid geyser]

yeah they did

[atomic kayak]

The general point I was making was that guidance spam doesn't even work most of the time

[marble lion]

Retroactively as in "i wanna use inspiration" when stuff already happened

[echo meteor]

probably cause thats how everyone used ti ANYWAYS

what about Portent? did they make it retroactive too?

[exotic sinew]

I know guidance has verbal and somatic components but can’t you do it in a way that is like you know a tap on the shoulder and being like “you got this bud” and that gives them a bit of guidance

[atomic kayak]

technically you chose to expend it "when" you made the roll

[valid geyser]

also because 2014 inspiration was pretty sucky design wise and people barely ever used it for a reason
2024 is a little better about it

[atomic kayak]

They are mechanically nearly identical

[valid geyser]

it wouldnt really make sense flavorwise if it was retroactive

[echo meteor]

Chronurgy was ALWAYS retroactive tho

[atomic kayak]

the main reason people rarely used inspiration before was because it was entirely reliant on the DM to ever have it

[tall forge]

In lore technically no, you have a very specific speech to cast it

Mechanically, you shine golden light on the person you guidance

[echo meteor]

I think i only play bladesinger/chronurgy/divination wizard tho

[swift wren]

True, its this moment of overloading an already slower system

[valid geyser]

well yeah, thats time manipulation
portent is about seeing the future, so itd be weird if it messed with the past

[exotic sinew]

Ohh. It doesn’t say that in the spell description now does it lol 😂

[atomic kayak]

Portent was not retroactive, it was done before the roll

[tall forge]

Oh misremembered thats something else i think

[echo meteor]

i've seen ppl use it after the roll all the time

[tall forge]

But verbal and somatic components are specific things that are noticeable, you can flavor them to be other things but they ARE noticeable

[atomic kayak]

ok? That doesn't mean it was how it worked. Same with guidance. Among other things we have discussed

[exotic sinew]

Portent can be done after a roll ???

[echo meteor]

well, you cant exactly use portent before the roll alot of the times, especaily if the DM chooses to roll for something and the divination wizard comes back and goes "i wanted to portent that!"

[tall forge]

With portent, technically they dont even get to roll

[exotic sinew]

Ahh gotcha

[echo meteor]

which makes it hard to do portent BEFORE the roll

[tall forge]

But yeah, this is the main reason
Dnd combat tends to move fast

[atomic kayak]

2014 portent had to be chosen to be used before they made the roll. 2024 is the same

[jolly agate]

beans

[echo meteor]

its hard to enforce because if you check for portent before EVERY roll.. it will slow down the game soo much

[knotty vine]

How do I learn rct in dnd

[atomic kayak]

whether or not its hard to enforce or not is besides the point really ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[tall forge]

Be a divine soul sorcerer

[echo meteor]

its a necessary sacrifice to make the game run smoother

just to make portent happen after the roll

[exotic sinew]

Ohh that’s silly 🤪

[echo meteor]

otherwise, the DM will have to ask the diviner, "i am going to roll, r u going to portent" before every single roll

[knotty vine]

Could portent be used on death saves?

[exotic sinew]

What if I want to stop my dm from hitting a crit

[atomic kayak]

yes

[knotty vine]

I thought so

[exotic sinew]

I would say yes as it only states “d20 test” (2024)

[tall forge]

2014 is debatable
2024 is yes

[uncut zenith]

Death saves are a D20 test, so Portent would apply

[knotty vine]

I choose to pass my death saves

[tall forge]

Idk if death saves are actual saving throws

[knotty vine]

They aren’t

[tall forge]

Gotta be conscious to use it

[knotty vine]

Does it say there?

[exotic sinew]

If we go RAW it doesn’t say that

[valid geyser]

That’s some scenario you made up
If only a player had the agency to interrupt their DM to let them know they have a reactive ability they’re using

[tall forge]

“made by you or a creature that you can see”

[marble lion]

More of that energy please

[exotic sinew]

Yea made by you

I am making the death saves I choose to pass them

[knotty vine]

So I could totally just choose to pass my own death saves

[tall forge]

Also looked it up, death saves are saving throws

[exotic sinew]

Doesn’t say I have to see myself

[echo meteor]

do you think DMs ALWAYS gives the players a chance to declare that they want to use a portent before he rolls the dice and explains what happens?

[knotty vine]

I guess but you don’t add anything to them it’s just a flat saving throw.?

[woven flint]

I choose to fail my death saves because I'm just different 😎
(Silly)

[echo meteor]

its a scenario that happens ALL THE TIME

[lavish flame]

Probably the best player I ever had was always super efficient with it. Before anyone would roll anything (me, DM, included) he was able to let you know that he was Portenting it to X. It was really cool that sometimes you just wouldn't need to roll for an effect

[marble lion]

The dm says "the goblins fires a fire bolt at you, zoran."
And before any roll is announced, the player can go "i use portent on that"

[knotty vine]

It’s not a preset saving throw

[tall forge]

Means any buff to saving throws affect death saves

[exotic sinew]

Yep flat

[uncut zenith]

Yep. So long as you didn’t use your Portent roll before you have to start rolling death saves

[echo meteor]

sure, it would be easy there, but its also hard in other cases

[tall forge]

Like paladin aura

[valid geyser]

DMs say what they do before they make rolls, plenty of time for a player not on their phone to declare a reactive ability

[marble lion]

Possible but rare

[knotty vine]

There’s nothing that gives you a + to death saves only advantage

[tall forge]

Paladin aura

[atomic kayak]

There's a few things

[echo meteor]

im not sure, it really depends on the table and the DM

[dark pewter]

Also, as a DM, if one of your players has uses of Portent left, you should leave a beat for them to use their feature.

[tall forge]

Bardic inspiration, bless i think?

[dark pewter]

That's part of being aware of your players' kits.

[tall forge]

Anything that gives a + to a saving throw really

[marble lion]

Is a death save an actual saving throw?

[woven flint]

Yes

[knotty vine]

I guess it is

[tall forge]

According to the phb yes

[marble lion]

I had no idea

[exotic sinew]

My monk character has a parapet of wound closure (idk if I spelt that correctly) and pretty much it means I cannot fail my death saves 😃

[echo meteor]

its a bit difficult because you sometimes need time you to process wtf the DM just said, and it takes you time to figure out if its worth using portent in that circumstance

[knotty vine]

You just don’t add anything to it base wise

[marble lion]

Never came up in my games anyway

[valid geyser]

I don’t think death saves are legally saving throws

[tall forge]

I attack you twice

[dark pewter]

Again, as the DM, you should be allowing a beat for your player to chime in. You give them the space to use their feature, or move on if they don't.

[tall forge]

You failed your saving throws >:)

[exotic sinew]

Shhhh dont do that

That’s just mean 😢

[tall forge]

They are, unfortunately

[atomic kayak]

They are

[knotty vine]

I still think it’s unfair when my player stares me dead in my face and says that it’s “unfair” that the enemy attacked them while they were downed

[atomic kayak]

Its why stuff like Monk and Paladin affected them (among other things that generically add to saves)

[echo meteor]

its a bit unfair 😛

[tall forge]

Oh i love attacking downed players

[exotic sinew]

It is literally called a “death saving throw” idk how much clearer it can be that it is a saving throw

[tall forge]

I have monsters that literally try and steal the body of downed players to eat for later

So if you get downed, theyre taking you and booking it

[knotty vine]

It’s cause it doesn’t fall under any basic saving throw str con dex etc etc

[valid geyser]

I mean the rules don’t even say they’re a d20 test

[echo meteor]

I think you have a "DM vs Player" mentality 😛

[tall forge]

Do that to em. see if they think youre evil >:)

[exotic sinew]

It depends. Tier one of (level 1-4) I think it’s a bit rough but Tier 2 and onwards f em. Stab their unconscious bodies

[tall forge]

Its called difficult combat 🤷

[tall forge]

For me, it depends on the encounter. Wild animals who are defending territory? They arent gonna bother

[knotty vine]

The world grinds to a halt

[echo meteor]

And you make it difficult on purpose by banning stronger classes

[tall forge]

I banned like, 2

[uncut zenith]

They don’t need to. Death saving throws are saving throws. Saving throws are D20 tests, so by extension, Death saving throws are D20 tests.

[tall forge]

Either way, my games are fun and thats what matters 🤷

[knotty vine]

What classes did you ban?

[still plover]

"Good news! You're stabilised and have d4 HP. Bad news! You're upside down in a bone pit full of noxious scents, your arms are pinned to your sides and you're no longer holding your weapon/ focus."

[tall forge]

Bladesinger and chronurgy

[echo meteor]

fun for who? 😛

[knotty vine]

Why did you ban bladesinger?

[tall forge]

I mostly just banned all CR subclasses

[exotic sinew]

I don’t know much about wizards to know anything about that subclass but you made a valid point with it. And to me Bloodhunter is a critical roll thing it’s not actually wizards of the coast even though they have like adopted it. I think that’s also very valid.