dnd-discussion

[stark maple]

it can also just blind you

[umbral girder]

Tiamat (not the Aspect) is immune to Divine smite now

[empty thicket]

that is nice, for both sides

[stark maple]

ha true

[umbral girder]

Since the Tiamat stat block is immune to 6th level and lower spells

[past marsh]

would depend on dm ruling i expecvt, but the channel divinity isnt the divine smite

smite would do no damage anbd then she sget restrained, as far as i can tell

[empty thicket]

Direclty immune?! damn...

[stark maple]

would she be effected by channel divintity?

[umbral girder]

Its ok, maybe Mid as a channel divinity overall

[past marsh]

it doesnt ask that the divine smite does damage, it only asks that you cast the spell

[stark maple]

tiamat has like a 30 in strength

[past marsh]

yeah but shes gonna use her action to get out

it's like hitting the enmy with command but its ac based

and the resource is refunded if you miss

[stark maple]

an action doesnt mean all that much when legendary actions exist

[umbral girder]

And?

[stark maple]

i feel like your over hyping this ability

[past marsh]

if you made tiamat do 76 less damage for a urn with a channel divinity and level 1 spells, that's a huge w

[umbral girder]

Not really.

Absorb elements gets a similar job done at negating a good portion of her and any plenty of dragon damage

[stark maple]

legendary action breathe weapon

[past marsh]

absorb elements is gonna save you and only you from about 35 damage

assuming you even failed the save

[stark maple]

this works mainly on lower tier enemies that dont have minions or cant past a dex or strength check

[past marsh]

but we'll assume that

[umbral girder]

looks at the average 91 damage her red head does

yeah 35.

[past marsh]

then it saved you from 45 damage

[stark maple]

or that cant teleport

[umbral girder]

And of course if she just does it again. Or if any dragon does it again.

[past marsh]

tiamat has the choice of 5 elements

she actually also CANT repeat the element

per round, each head cant happen more than once

but even if she could i have no idea why she would

not to mention that same paladin is out here giving the whole squard resistance

[stark maple]

to 1 element

[past marsh]

yeah, but so is aborb elements

it doesnt encompass all 5 at once. except the aura is free as the air

[stark maple]

i still dont think geine paladin can beat a lich

[past marsh]

can they solo a lich? no

but idk how many could outside of very specific builds

[stark maple]

dragon turtle

[past marsh]

the lich just dimension doors away from anything ti doesnt want to fight

or plane shifts

and just...waits. or sends minions

[stark maple]

i mean when they made it do the proper 134 possible damage and pretty much making it the best melee

most creatures can only dream of that

[past marsh]

I'm only seeing 90 damage on dragon turtle

[stark maple]

im talking about the lich

[past marsh]

oh sure

[stark maple]

unless you have a ring of free movement your not gonna beat a lich unless you build for AC

[past marsh]

but the paladin is an s tier class and noble genie an s tier subclass

[stark maple]

debatable

[past marsh]

outside of theorycrafting monster builds it's one of the strongest player choices you can currently make without even doing anythign special with your build

[limber trail]

no class is gonna beat a lich solo without some absurd multiclassing & white room going on

[stark maple]

the liches muti attack is way too strong

[past marsh]

a party of 4 genie paladins is going to do crazy damage and not be locked up by very much

[limber trail]

it's completely fair for a CR 21 that is typically the boss of an adventure / major story arc

[past marsh]

they even fly

[limber trail]

they fly for one minute at level 20

[past marsh]

they have the fly spell

[limber trail]

that's not that broken

[stark maple]

dispell magic

[past marsh]

no, it's just one of many little things that make a crazy character

[stark maple]

you would suffer if you ever have to fight more then 2 guys

[past marsh]

noble genie has no ribbons or mid features

it's just gas all the way

[limber trail]

yeah but it's also not some disgusting overpowered build. It's just well made all the way.

[past marsh]

im not saying it is. I'm saying it is top of s tier for default builds assuming no theorycrafting bs

[stark maple]

teleporting is a decently common thing for monsters ngl

its became more common in 2024 since wotc is trying to give more monsters bonus actions

[past marsh]

it also doesnt matter if 'x wizard i make with x spell list can dunk him' because that isnt what players are facing

[limber trail]

i think people signficantly overvalue the role of a "build". Most subclasses are completely playable and very fun. You will never be punished for your choice of subclasses. Just play what's fun. Realistically, all that's gonna happen if you have an above average build is the encounters are gonna be buffed up a bit to balance it out.

[knotty pasture]

Oh nah Paladin isn't S tier, not with the caster martial divide wider than ever

[stark maple]

why not

[past marsh]

paladins are, in fact, also spellcasters, and they have good lists

[stark maple]

half casters

[worn lagoon]

half* spellcasters with alright, but nowhere near as good lists at nowhere near the same pace

[stark maple]

they just share a list with cleric

[worn lagoon]

no, they're missing a lot of powerful cleric spells even at the spell levels they do reach

[stark maple]

they also cant replace spells on a long rest onlike other prepared casters

[limber trail]

They have their own spell list. There’s a lot of overlap but they’re still distinct lists

[stark maple]

i see

[glass granite]

Only time you might be punished is 2014 berserker

[stark maple]

2014 berserker is a punishment

[knotty pasture]

What if Berserker didn't suffer from any penalty at all during their rage stuff

No exhaustion, nothing

[stark maple]

they would be better

[worn lagoon]

what the hell is the point of exhaustion per rage the hell

[stark maple]

idk bonus action attacking is really strong or something

[past marsh]

idk dawg opportunity costg is a thing. if your subclass is hot garbage and you could have had a simply mid subclass, you lost out

[cerulean monolith]

hey so i would like you to briefly consider what the 3rd and 4th letters in "ttrpg" stand for

[stark maple]

wizard having the ability to cast maze at 17 level:

[past marsh]

I'm not a minmaxer, but I am a fulltime DM who watches players go nuts six nights a week, and I have a lot of admittedly anecdotal data on how 2024 plays out

[stark maple]

i still love the maze spell

[past marsh]

maze is very funny, i like it

[cerulean monolith]

then consider why "missing out on powerful features makes weaker subclasses bad" is a completely asinine argument

[stark maple]

table top roleplaying game

[worn lagoon]

did you think you did something here

[past marsh]

I'm not here to argue if players should roleplay, cus they definitely should. Optimal choices are a completely seperate matter from roleplaying

id argue makign suboptimal choices is at the heart of rp

[stark maple]

making your self weak doesnt make your character any more interesting in roleplay

same thing with strong

[past marsh]

In an ideal world, subclasses would be as balanced against each other as possible so that you could make choices purely on rp and not even ever worry about the difference. but players WILL consider power level

[glass granite]

Yeah, definitely agree, but I feel like the thematics of subclasses are there, even if they’re not the best subclass

[past marsh]

and on that note, subclasses can also fail by delivering 0 rp potential

[cerulean monolith]

it is not the responsibility of the players to make their characters strong

[terse rapids]

What would yall do in my place:
"You dont know how to talk to people" I play dnd for the human interaction as not having a car limits me on that. I've been dnding with this group since July. I am also met with "go read a book" , "you know nothing of the human experience", I get it! I'm bad at human interaction. I dont deserve to be badgered by strangers on the internet.

[cerulean monolith]

...what?

[past marsh]

it's not, but they usually want to

[stark maple]

most if not all subclasses lost there flavor in 2024

[worn lagoon]

once again, no one suggested this

[civic ember]

what does pbp mean?

[glass granite]

Play by post

[past marsh]

play by post. It means instead of sessions you just post ona forum or chat room when you have time

[humble cairn]

Play By Post, it's a kidn of game where everything is posted to a forum or sometimes even in email chains.

[civic ember]

ah so my preferred way of playing, awesome.

[terse rapids]

I would argue that the class of the character has nothing to do with the rp potential of said character

[glass granite]

Probably try and ignore it and independently trying to improve yourself.

[cerulean monolith]

i would advise you to take a step back and look around at the way other people are engaging in discussion in this server and compare it to the way you are engaging in discussion. this server very much so has a culture that places an emphasis on respect, so doing the opposite isn't going to get you very far in conveying a point

[glass granite]

Well, I’d find it hard to role play a magical tinkerer crafting up spell calculations with a class with a class that doesn’t cast, so I’d say it’s there to a point

[past marsh]

Not necessarily, but it's like, food with less seasoning often tastes worse than food with more

I'd argue a player character who incorporated the idea of being a cleric into their character, determing things like the god they worship and what tenets they believe in, and informs it in their abilities will be stronger than a good character who just has abilities that just happen ebcause they do

[cerulean monolith]

but you can always add seasoning yourself. some dishes may come preseasoned, but who cares if there's a full open bar of seasonings? certain dishes having full palates is useful, especially if you're not yet accustomed to which seasonings go best with which type of dishes, but dishes are best when they're customizable

[past marsh]

those ideas can be reinforced in gameplay

if your abilities have absolutely nothing to do with your character, or dont express it in any meaningful way, it is worse than the former

[terse rapids]

But its everything thing, I say or talk about.
Share 1 too many pictures that isn't related to the convo "you dont how to talk to people" ah yes cause I saw an image i wanted yalls reaction to it.

Talk about any form of media (i love films and TV, I love the science/ art of film) "GO READ A BOOK"

These people tire me out

[cerulean monolith]

worse to whom?

[past marsh]

the average analysis of fiction, I suppose

I dont think that's controversial

[terse rapids]

Sorta but you can literally apply the (for example) revenge backstory to ANY class,
It up to the player to make it unique.

[past marsh]

Steve, the guy who has exploding hands because he drank some fountain ink once is gonna be less compelling than Steve, the guy who studied for years to make his hands explode or Steve the guy who was born with epxloding hands because his mother was bullied by elementals

classes do inform your character, on some level

the Battlerager is very, very boring in rp as written. You're Steve the guy who happens to wear a special armor. You are gonna have to go out if your way to make that itneresting

[humble cairn]

Battlerager has some very interesting lore if you read the novels.

[past marsh]

Yes, it does

but thats why it's a bad subclass

you dont see NONE of that

because the lore battlerager is way more than 'dude who wears special armor'

[humble cairn]

But on the whole I like when classes and subclasses give suggestions as to lore and give the player freedom to make up their own. Like when they have multiple default flavors.

[past marsh]

I mean yeah, you can do that

[humble cairn]

I know it's a Lineage, but I liked how Dhampir lore was left up to the player. Sure, you could use the typical vampire spawn thing, but you could also be something more obscure, like a dream eater.

[past marsh]

but i can beat Resident Evil 4 with the Punisher. Doesnt make the Punisher a good gun

[humble cairn]

Or a flesh eating ghoul.

[humble cairn]

I'm not sure the relevance of this?

[past marsh]

example

bad subclasses can make good characters

[humble cairn]

Also I've never played those games so I have no idea what that means.

[past marsh]

but theyre still bad subclasses

it's all relative

[humble cairn]

Hmm .. that's very vague. In this case you're saying a subclass is bad because it has no flavor? Not because of mechanics?

[past marsh]

it can be bad for either reason but the former is rarer than the latter

[south warren]

Hello

[humble cairn]

Ok but what are you saying in this case? In regards to Battlerager?

[worn lagoon]

yo

[past marsh]

it's bad because it fails on both fronts, but battlerager is just an example of how a subclass can fail on an rp front

it gives you virtually nothing of interest

[south warren]

I've been looking for a DND group, I haven't played before but I've made characters and watched videos of ppl playing

[humble cairn]

I think I would prefer a subclass that gives very little flavor over a subclass that straitjackets you into a flavor too strongly.

Mechanics aside.

[past marsh]

that's much more a matter of taste, which i def wont argue

[humble cairn]

But I, personally, am a player who likes to come up with my own flavor for things often.

[past marsh]

ive seen it both ways

but id argue having flavor to use and throwing it out is better than never having flavor to start with

[humble cairn]

I think Battlerager is very underwhelming, mechanically, but honestly fine on flavor.

You've got that it's traditionally dwarven, you've got that it's a Barbarian about frenzied hurty hugs.

That's enough for me to go off to the races with it.

[past marsh]

you can always ignore the flavor text and do whatever you want, but you cant make inspiration appear out of thin air

[humble cairn]

Ahh, you have a neat dwarven phrase to go along with it.

[past marsh]

you get it from somewhere

[humble cairn]

There's actually quite a lot of flavor packed into the text of Battlerager.

Just one sentence gives you a lot to go on.

[past marsh]

id argue the big problem is battlerager never explains why you would be different from any random person who put on spiked armor

[humble cairn]

Because you are an "Axe Idiot" who follows the Dwarven gods.

[past marsh]

none of its abilities suggest you are doign anything any other martially trainer person couldnt do

[humble cairn]

That gives you not only a framework for who they worship, but also how they are regarded in society. Divine touched, but also kind of idiots, so be careful.

[past marsh]

all swarves with requisite arms can perform hugs

if they said something wild like 'the dwarves trained to use special mechanisms in the armor that make spikes shoot out' you would be like 'oh of course that is why onyl they can do this'

[humble cairn]

Eh, I don't see it. sure anyone could do it, but only these people who worship these specific sets of gods and have a particular brutal mindset, do.

It's traditional.

Traditions and culture and societal view. All packed into the description right there.

Mechanically it's highly underwhelming. But the flavor is all there.

[past marsh]

ironically, as written and with the extremely low power of the subclass, this suggests that the partial reason for idiocy is having chosen this subclass

[grizzled lance]

What have I done

[mighty wharf]

I have finally figured out artificer/wizard spell rules

God it's so complicated and satisfying to figure it out.

[humble cairn]

Yeah, sure. Again, it's a tradition. Traditions are often not optimal.

[humble cairn]

I dunno. What have you done?

[past marsh]

Aw c'mon, it's funny

[grizzled lance]

Wdym

[past marsh]

I WANT a good battlerager. Though I doubt it would ever happen

The lore of battleragers is gonna make WOTC not wanna touch it anymore

at least not without massive changes

[humble cairn]

Oh, me too, but saying Battlerager as written lacks flavor is not true. Saying it lacks the mechanical oomph to back that flavor up? Yeah, that I would agee with.

[past marsh]

I'm arguing mechanical interes tis part of flavor, they work hand in hand

it does have to be good to be interesting, mind

[humble cairn]

They do, but they are also not the same thing.

[mighty wharf]

So basically there are 3 big rules:
"To determine your spell slots, add half of your artificer level (rounded up, yes it's different) to your other spellcasting class's levels. Your spell slots are determined by the result of that class"
And
"Spells known and spells you can prepare are determined by each class independently"
And
Artificers are not "learned" casters, they are prepared casters, meaning they prepare spells directly from the artificer list

[past marsh]

it just has to be...interesting

[humble cairn]

No, it doesn't. Plenty of people are interested in things that are mechanically bad. I've seen it.

[past marsh]

and battlerager SCAG definitely is not

[humble cairn]

Not everyone plays optimally. Optimizing is only one play style, not every play style. Definitely seen people play 2014 Berserker for the vibes and not care about the drawbacks. And they had fun, which means they were doing it right. The point is to have fun, not to optimize.

[past marsh]

A theoretical Battlerager redo could use its hit dice for damage somehow, that's be sick and flavorful

even if it was bad

[humble cairn]

For some people, optimizing is fun. But that's certainly not true for everyone.

[past marsh]

i flubbed and wrote 'does' instead of 'doesn't'

[mighty wharf]

WHICH MEANS as a arti1/wiz4:
-From artificer: You get 2 cantrips, and can prepare 2 spells from Artificer
-From wizard: you get 3 cantrips, 8/6/0 effective spells known (can't do level 3 spells)
And for both classes, you get 4/3/2 spell slots, meaning you have 3rd level slots but not 3rd level spells.

[past marsh]

just realized the disconnect. nah, we're ont he same page

[humble cairn]

Oh. That is an important difference.

[past marsh]

yep

typing with crazy fingers do be hard

[humble cairn]

The human body, amirite?

[mighty wharf]

So basically, you get the 1 level of artificer for the low low cost of 1 level delayed level 3 spells (but you can still upcast)

Yeah this is nuts.

[past marsh]

ye. i got like, perma bent fingers that run into each other and make me miss keys or jab accidental ones

sorry bruv

[mighty wharf]

I'm like that meme of that guy with the conspiracy board building this stupid character

[humble cairn]

No problem, but just fyi I don't like to be addressed as any variation of "dude" or "bro", not a big deal.

[past marsh]

sure

whatsoever your pronouns may be, valid

[humble cairn]

This is why the #character-discussion channel says you should avoid multiclassing if you're new.

[mighty wharf]

I read your name as Oppenmancer

[mighty wharf]

It's been fun tbh. I was fully aware of what I was getting into

[humble cairn]

Not the first time since that movie came out that I have gotten that.

[mighty wharf]

Now that I've finally figured it out it's fun as hell.

[past marsh]

I only wish I knew a completely ungendered version of the idea behind 'bro' so I could more easily express its ideal

[mighty wharf]

I dove way into the deep end too, this is artiwizard

[mighty wharf]

There's uh homie

[past marsh]

I'm a perma DM so I can only dream, but I do dream of a land druid

[remote wadi]

Wanted to ask a question about Monk

[past marsh]

throw hands friend

[remote wadi]

Are there any optional features in 2014 that are compatible with 2024?

[past marsh]

do you mean 2024?

if so, I think not

[grizzled lance]

Everytime you get dressed remember that’s your ghost outfit forever

[past marsh]

not RAW. but yknow, ask DM. Or if you are DM, make sad pagliacci sounds

[remote wadi]

Wanted to ask because I'm not sure the ruling on it

[grizzled lance]

Most of them got ported over to 2024

[past marsh]

2014 optional features apply to the 2014 classes

just RAW.

[remote wadi]

I mean, there's no Dedicated Weapon

[past marsh]

so youd have to ask dm for clemency

[remote wadi]

Quickened Healing, Focused Aim, or Ki fueled attack

[past marsh]

you can just unarmed stroike as BA raw now

[grizzled lance]

Isn’t dedicated weapon 2014

[past marsh]

so ki fueld attack is spending ki for no reason

[humble cairn]

It's not the gendering that bothers me, but there's "friend?"

[grizzled lance]

That’s not what that did

[past marsh]

I mean it's close, yeah, but not as casual, a bit stilted

[humble cairn]

I like "friendo."

[past marsh]

friendo is valid

and 2024 legal as far as we know

[remote wadi]

All 4 of them are. Maybe it's a mistake, but i could have sworn there was a good chunk of optional content introduced in books that was possible in 2024

[humble cairn]

"Dude" is just too casual for me and "bro" is just something I dislike anyone calling me except my actual siblings.

[past marsh]

oh, I guess ki fueled let you use a weapon instead

[grizzled lance]

Dedicated weapon kinda got out did by kensei is why

[past marsh]

but that's relatively niche

[remote wadi]

Kensei?

[grizzled lance]

Kensei monk

[humble cairn]

You're talking about Tasha's optional features, all of which should still be legal and current, but still optional by DM fiat.

[past marsh]

i mean yeah, no books are legal except whatever your DM says

[humble cairn]

Dedicated Weapon is from Tasha's, which means it is pre-2024, but still current for the rule set.

[remote wadi]

So, are any of the 4 optional monk features Tasha's?

[grizzled lance]

All of them are

But again dedicated weapon is still too niche

[humble cairn]

If you're talking about Dedicated Weapon, Ki Fueled Attack, Quickened Healing, and Focused Aim, those are all from Tasha's.

[remote wadi]

Focused Aim and Quickened Healing, though

Those 2 look good

[grizzled lance]

Those are decent

[humble cairn]

Too niche for what now?

[grizzled lance]

Kensei outdoes both of them

[humble cairn]

Ok but what if I don't want to be a Kensei Monk?

Dedicated Weapon opens up new weapons for non-Kensei Monks.

[remote wadi]

I will be using Mercy Monk anyways. 2024 rules

[humble cairn]

So Dedicated Weapon would be of value.

[grizzled lance]

You still have to be proficient with the weapon as well

[humble cairn]

IF your DM allows it.

[past marsh]

Your DM will decide if it's ok to use them, one way or another

'legal' applies only to Adventurer's League

just axe

[humble cairn]

Monk has proficiency in some non "Monk Weapons" and there are also ways to get proficiency in other weapons. It can still be of value.

[past marsh]

sorry, ask, I'm still an axe idiot

[grizzled lance]

If a monk is proficient with that weapon it counts as a monk weapon already

[humble cairn]

No, it doesn't

[remote wadi]

Well, I can find a way around that. 4th level, I can get a few weapon proficiencies and reflavor a glaive as a guandao

[grizzled lance]

So what are monk weapons?

[humble cairn]

Monks are proficient in some non "Monk Weapons" as designated by their Martial Arts feature.

[humble cairn]

Weapons specifically designated by their Martial Arts Feature.

[past marsh]

    Simple Melee Weapons
    Martial Melee Weapons that have the Light property```

[grizzled lance]

So… all weapons they are already proficient in

[humble cairn]

Nope

It doesn't include the ranged weapons they are proficient with.

[past marsh]

it's worded this way because if you multiclass your multiclasses weapons dont get grandfathered in

[remote wadi]

2024 monks have prof in all simple weapons and martials with the light property

[humble cairn]

And the inclusion of a ranged weapon would allow Stunning Strike at range.

[grizzled lance]

Ranged weapons also fall under simple or martial..?

[past marsh]

ie if you are a monk/fighter

[humble cairn]

Yes, there are Simple Ranged weapons.

[past marsh]

greatswords are never monk weapons

[humble cairn]

Monks have proficiency with all Simple Weapons, but only Simple Melee weapons are considered "Monk Weapons" for Martials Arts.

[remote wadi]

Apparently so

[humble cairn]

Simple Weapons include things like Slings and Darts.

Which are not Monk Weapons for Martial Arts.

[past marsh]

yep, that too

daggers would count though

[grizzled lance]

Ok.. so you can use slings and darts is that it

[humble cairn]

So no, not all weapons that monks are proficient in count as "Monk Weapons" for Martial Arts.

[grizzled lance]

Daggers are thrown/melee so they do count

[past marsh]

yea

just funny cus darts and daggers arent very different

[grizzled lance]

Any simple melee weapons

[humble cairn]

Darts, Slings, Light Crossbows, and Shortbows. AND anything you can pick up proficiency in with the Weapon Master Feat.

[grizzled lance]

Weapon master is cheeks

[remote wadi]

Wait, so you're telling me that I can get Martial Weapon Training Feat and be able to make any one of those a monk weapon via Dedicated Weapon?

[humble cairn]

There are also species which give weapon profs.

[grizzled lance]

Might as well be a species

[humble cairn]

As long as it isn't restricted by the feature.

[remote wadi]

Weapon Master is just getting mastery with 1 martial weapon that you can change during a long rest. Martial Weapon Training is just prof in all of them

[humble cairn]

"The chosen weapon must meet these criteria:

• The weapon must be a simple or martial weapon.
• You must be proficient with it.
• It must lack the heavy and special properties."

So if you pick up prof in some way and the weapon isn't Heavy or Special, then yes.

[grizzled lance]

Does that over ride the two handed thing

[humble cairn]

What is "the two weapon thing?"

[past marsh]

dedicated weapon can make a sub sandwich a monk weapon, if your dm is funny

[humble cairn]

Tavern Brawler for prof in improvised weapons?

that doesn't work

[past marsh]

doth not mine sandwich resemble a a club? ITH it not a CLUB SANDWICH, DM?

[grizzled lance]

I just remember kensei being one of the best at using a longbow

[humble cairn]

Because improvised weapons are neither simple or martial.

[humble cairn]

Yes, that remains the same.

[past marsh]

im referring to the super broad clause Weapon Equivalents. If an improvised weapon resembles a Simple or Martial weapon, the DM may say it functions as that weapon and uses that weapon's rules. For example, the DM could treat a table leg as a Club.

[humble cairn]

Okay, iffy, but if the DM is willing, I guess.

[vale sage]

King David maxxing

[past marsh]

vagueness is the portal to hilarity, my friend

[grizzled lance]

If you wanna be weapons using monk just do kensei

[grizzled lance]

Wdym if I pick up a crowbar can I not use it as a weapon

[past marsh]

yeah but my example was bread

[grizzled lance]

Or a decently big tree branch

Or a fire poker

[past marsh]

I'm not that cool of a DM. If you draw a picture of a sword on a sheet of parchment and ask to use it as a sword im gonna let ya down

but some maniac is gonna make someone very happy one day

[grizzled lance]

I still wanna see kensei get reworked

[past marsh]

funny question i can see a headache player asking is if their improvised longsword can be considered both an improvised weapon AND a longsword

so they can do tavern brawler memes with it, or something

[grizzled lance]

It can only be one or the other

[past marsh]

there's enough vagueness to rules lawyer it

my scenario requires the asking player to be malicious and deserving of bonks

[humble cairn]

Oh so would I. My idea is that they'd have a short list of Weapon Masteries that they could apply to any weapon strike by spending Focus.

[grizzled lance]

Name a weapon that’s similar enough to a long sword that can also be considered “improvised”

[humble cairn]

A long sword prop for a play.

[past marsh]

I pull off a table leg that just so happens to be carved in the shape of a longsword

[grizzled lance]

Pretty sure it has to be lethal enough to kill

[grizzled lance]

That’s still bludgeoning damage unless it’s really sharp

[past marsh]

Or I snap off a really big icicle

[grizzled lance]

Pretty sure that can’t kill someone’s unless you hit them really really hard

And even in that case it’s not getting through leather armor

[humble cairn]

That's .. kind of the principle behind a lot of weapons?

[past marsh]

it's made of magic ice that's really hard

and i didnt snap it off, the Snapper Offer monster did

the rule doesnt ask if it will hold up to wear and tear as if it were a real weapon

it only asks that it 'resembles' the thing

[grizzled lance]

Most weapons are made to kill with minimal effort arent they?

Would be counter intuitive to make a weapon that takes more effort to kill someone

[past marsh]

reminder that logic has no place in dnd rules, lmao

[grizzled lance]

Pretty sure that other rule only works for stuff like table legs and kitchen knives

[past marsh]

why does fireball not utterly incinerate the door? because reasons

the example of longsword is immaterial anyway

[grizzled lance]

What..

[past marsh]

if you just use the example of table leg as a club, you can ask to treated as an Improvised Weapon Club and have a narrow argument

[inner silo]

Are the graviturgy or order of the quill subclasses any good?

[grizzled lance]

Yeah but long sword do slashing

[grizzled lance]

They ight

[past marsh]

then i ripped the sword like appendage off a monster

giant preying mantis or smth

[inner silo]

Can the quill sentient spellbook talk?

[grizzled lance]

No such thing

Didn’t you just say dnd doesn’t work like our world

[grizzled lance]

No

[inner silo]

Big sad

[past marsh]

hook horror...hook

[grizzled lance]

That’s not a preying mantis

[past marsh]

there are definitely monsters who have sword hands

[grizzled lance]

Also those are hooks not swords

[past marsh]

or otherwise WOTC is missing out

longswords could pierce too if you really wanted

just because hook horrors use their hook to pierce doesnt mean they couldnt slash

[grizzled lance]

They aren’t made for piercing so I’d nerf the damage

Just like how rapiers aren’t for slashing

[past marsh]

ah but ye olde dragon claws slash

and are sword sized for any decent size dragon

[grizzled lance]

What’s next great axes doing piercing

[real epoch]

hello whats going on?

[past marsh]

a completely pointless and hilarious argument

monty python style

[real epoch]

Why are you argument gyz?

[past marsh]

we're practically arguing semantics for virtually no reason

me, because Im having fun, them, I can't say

[real epoch]

yeah 😭 you’re just having fun they’re taking it way too seriously.

[stark maple]

at the end of the day fire ball doing force damage can make all your problems go away

[past marsh]

well, what i meant by fireball was fireball only damages creatures and not objects

[real epoch]

Ahhh got it 😌 so your fireball only hits creatures not objects.

[stark maple]

it does ignite flammable stuff through

[past marsh]

the platonic ideal of fireball is seen in one adventure where the narrative says it blows up half the street, but the rules reality is that the street just catches fire

yeah, it does

but it's not what you expect should happen, logically

[warm pagoda]

How do I make my own character here?

[stark maple]

you dont play here you go to #find-a-game

[real epoch]

you can find artist for make own character

[past marsh]

just like if you use a feature to make fireball to cold damage, it still ignites flammable objects, even though no fire is supposedly involved

[stark maple]

its still fire its just cold fire

[warm pagoda]

Which one is that?

[real epoch]

Ahhh yeah 😅 even if you switch Fireball to cold damage it still somehow sets flammable stuff on fire game logic be wild

[past marsh]

is a fireball transmuted to thunder just...really loud fire?

[stark maple]

again its still called fire ball regardless of what damage type it is

[stark maple]

its just the noise caused by fire ball also that isnt possible

[past marsh]

why not? transmuted includes thunder

[tame forge]

You mean character sheet, backstory, or character art?

[stark maple]

does it?

[warm pagoda]

Yeah

[past marsh]

When you cast a spell that deals a type of damage from the following list, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to change that damage type to one of the other listed types: Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, Thunder.

[stark maple]

oh thats weird

[past marsh]

is the poison fireball ingested by the victim, and therefore poisonous?

[stark maple]

still just a very loud explosion

[tame forge]

Is thunder force damage?

[real epoch]

wdym I mean Are talking about to make your own chharacter right,

[tame forge]

Or is it its own thing?

[stark maple]

posion can effected you via the skin too

[past marsh]

its own thing

[warm pagoda]

Yes

[tame forge]

Yes

[stark maple]

mustard gas/cloud kill

[severe rampart]

Isn't that moreso acid?

[real epoch]

If you want so I can you out in this.

[past marsh]

i suppose the fire is absorbed by the skin, in a way

[stark maple]

what do you think happens if you pick up a poison dart frog

[severe rampart]

Fair point

[stark maple]

acid is melting you not poisoning you

[past marsh]

the point is you have to swallow logic

none of it TRULY makes sense, and trying to make it make sense makes it worse

[stark maple]

you only have to swallow logic in the case of magic imo

it doesnt follow our laws

[tame forge]

Unless you have a DM that goes above and beyond to make game hyper realistic but then its a lot of houserules.

I currenly have an ongoing list of 120 house rules for our 4 year ongoing game.

All to make 5e rules more consistent and sensible.

[past marsh]

on that subject, HWHAT IS A SPELL? DOTH DISPEL MAGIC NOT DISPEL MAGICAL EFFECTS NOT CREATED BY SPELLS? IF THE MAGICAL EFFECT WAS NOT CREATED BY A SPELL, HOW WAS IT CREATED? And other insane ramblings

[humble cairn]

Maybe cool it with the all caps?

[stark maple]

its called dispel magic not dispell spell

[humble cairn]

It messes with people's assistive tech.

[past marsh]

merely to emphasize the madness

but yes, I wil cool it

[real epoch]

Dang 😳 120 house rules? That’s next level dedication to making 5e actually make sense lol

[tame forge]

Seems kinda nitpicky.

[stark maple]

dispell magic is called dead magic which messes with the weave

its like asking "why does anti magic field work on everything instead of just spells"

[severe rampart]

It actually messes with people's assistive tech, so not really

[humble cairn]

But anyway, D&D is not a reality simulator. Realism isn't a virtue to be striven for in D&D.

[glass granite]

Mods have come on multiple occasions to ask to cool on it, so it seems that’s the expectation around here

[past marsh]

yeah, that's what I said, more or less

[tame forge]

Just a long term game and me notating what the DM chooses to update. If we houserule once that is the rule for the rest of the campaign. They are all voted on at the table.

[stark maple]

its anti magic/dead magic

[real epoch]

Facts 😌 D&D isn’t about realism it’s about fun and story first rules second

[tame forge]

Sure repeated messages of all caps are one thing. A once off though is a little bit wild to get mad about.

Sometimes all caps is necessary.

[real epoch]

Ahhh gotcha 😌 so it’s all tracked long term and any houserule becomes permanent once voted on makes sense for consistency

[stark maple]

if you type in all caps it forces the TTS to read out each letter

[tame forge]

Lmfao

[stark maple]

for someone like me whos hard of seeing i would prefer people not type in all caps

[tame forge]

Exactly

[real epoch]

yep

[tame forge]

We also prefer realism over whatever the hell base D&D is.

[stark maple]

everyone homebrews a little bit

[glass granite]

Shenanigans is probably the word I’d use (for what base dnd is)

And I love it

[tame forge]

Fortnite VS tarkov. Diff strokes for diff folks.

[inner silo]

Do you have a house rule for sneezing by any chance?@tame forge

[tame forge]

If you sneeze more than 3 times in the mic you roll on the wild magic table.

[glass granite]

Perfectly fair choice, and absolutely different tables have different preferences or tastes

[inner silo]

Fire🔥

[glass granite]

Peak

[inner silo]

That's how it should be irl lowkey

[tame forge]

XD

[stark maple]

2024 or 2014?

[glass granite]

Also hi Cracker haven’t seen ya around in a bit

[drifting token]

​🌌 ASTRAL: THE COSMIC EMBODIMENT 🌌
​"I re-created God because he couldn't handle my aura. What makes you think you can?"
​[ BASIC INFO ]
​Visual: 8yr old boy | White hair & long eyelashes | Blue eyes | Blue hoodie & Cargo shorts.
​The Hair: Every strand represents a "near-equal" being Astral has killed.
​The Soul: 969 Quadrillion Stars (Current Wish Count).
​Status: Husband to Death.
​[ COSMIC ABILITIES ]
​Nebula Infinity: A passive barrier of cosmic gas. Attacks never reach him; they are slowed infinitely.
​Dimension Slash: A nebula-colored cleave that cuts through reality, armor, and immortality.
​Purple Black Hole: A singularity that crushes and erases anything caught in its event horizon.
​Nebula Beam: Pure cosmic fire capable of erasing solar systems.
​Cosmic Summons: Can manifest any creature imagined out of nebula gas.
​[ SUPREME TRAITS ]
​Creator’s Aura: A pressure so intense it forced The One Above All to self-erase. Astral can reconstruct erased beings and edit their memories.
​Future Sight: 100% accurate precognition of all timelines.
​Omnilingual: Speaks every language in existence.
​Void Dweller: Resides 989 quadrillion light-years away in the "Absolute Nothing" to prevent his power from accidentally destroying reality.

[tame forge]

2014 but we use an expanded list of 100 results.

[stark maple]

what im i looking at

[tame forge]

Woah... wrong chat.

[drifting token]

this is my character who brave enough for a duel?

[tame forge]

Take it to character discussions

[drifting token]

aight

[glass granite]

We don’t do that sort of stuff in this server overall tbh

[tame forge]

Didja see my finished char art for my ghoul?

[inner silo]

Hi 2ndNuggetestNuggetyNugget

[glass granite]

No, where is it? I’d like to see it.

[stark maple]

this reminds me of the homebrew subclass that can just cast wish at will

[tame forge]

#dnd-arts-and-crafts message

[inner silo]

Sounds balanced I'd allow it

[stark maple]

it also doesnt have limits all at the prime price at level 3

[glass granite]

Sounds reasonable

[real epoch]

so you’re all about making it feel real even if base D&D is kinda chaotic

[tame forge]

In general I am always someone who preffers hyper realism in fantasy.

Just so happens my DM and other party members feel the same.

[stark maple]

what is hyper realism

[inner silo]

Casting wish at will at 3rd level

[tame forge]

Best analogy I have is Escape from Tarkov, Ready or Not, Squad, DayZ, etc. Just fantasy settings.

[real epoch]

So do you you have your own character for the game?

[tame forge]

Am about to bring in the ghoul necro bard I just linked a min ago.

[real epoch]

sorry what?

[tame forge]

Rotating out a Cleric of Asmodeus.
Before that I was an undead Harpy necromancer being mutated by eldritch magic.

[tame forge]

Bard/necromancer.

Ghoul Race.

Race is from our Cthulu mythos campaign books.

[stark maple]

your not helping your case

[warm pagoda]

Yes pls ty

[real epoch]

That’s insanely chaotic

[tame forge]

[inner silo]

Who's Asmodeus

[real epoch]

can we discuss about it dm for the character details?

[tame forge]

Archdevil

[stark maple]

the god of the 9th

howdo you not notasmod

[inner silo]

Ohh i see

[tame forge]

Villain campaign I typically play monster PC's

[inner silo]

I remember that name but i don't remember who he is, didn't read much hells lore

[real epoch]

ohh nice well who make customize character for your game?

[tame forge]

Will chat again in 30 min back to work but will be able to message at next station.

[worn surge]

heyy as a beginner, what handbook should i get? like what edition

[warm pagoda]

Can u send me the link for dm?

[stark maple]

2024 players hand book

[real epoch]

I've dm you can you check

[stark maple]

do they still even sell the regular 2014 hand book?

[real epoch]

oh akay Alright

[inner silo]

You can probably get a second hand one

[stark maple]

only through sharing or irl copies

2014 stuff will be over all harder to get since its considered legacy

[inner silo]

Thankfully digital is avalible

Ngl i wanted to play a necromancer for a while but graviturgy is looking so good lowkey

[stark maple]

you cant buy certain 2014 books digitally anymore

like volo's guide or tomb of foes

[real epoch]

what digital available do you have ?

[inner silo]

The phb is avalible on dnd beyond. I thought that's what you were talking about

[real epoch]

oh yeah I got it

[real epoch]

why your chat shows in spam?

[stark maple]

i cant talk about it anymore

less i want to be warned

[real epoch]

but why spammer in your message is there any glitch?

[stark maple]

no thats all im gonna say on the matte

[real epoch]

oh okay'

[remote wadi]

For the weapon Masteries, how long does the Vex property last?

[humble cairn]

"If you hit a creature with this weapon and deal damage to the creature, you have Advantage on your next attack roll against that creature before the end of your next turn."

[remote wadi]

Should have been more specific...

What would happen if i attack someone under the effects of Vex with a Vex weapon?

[stark maple]

nothing happens

weapon mastrey's dont stack

[humble cairn]

You would gain Advantage on that attack.

[remote wadi]

No reapplication?

[humble cairn]

In order to apply Vex, you need to attack. When you attack you use up the Vex.

[humble cairn]

Yes, reapplication.

[remote wadi]

I'm starting to see why Scimitars are a good choice for Monk

[humble cairn]

You use up the prior Vex, but then apply a new Vex.

Does that make sense?

[remote wadi]

So it does reapply, I gotcha

[humble cairn]

Scimitars are not Vex, they are Nick.

[remote wadi]

Oh, mixed it up with shortswords

[humble cairn]

But Nick is also great.

[worn surge]

is there a point getting the handbook in person as a beginner or should i just use the free online handbook?

[glass granite]

I use both when I take my ranger dip with monk

[remote wadi]

It can be. But if you use unarmed attacks often, thinking that a weapon with Topple could be better

[humble cairn]

Use the free one to start.

[remote wadi]

I mean, it is a lot of advantage and usually 2 chances to topple

[humble cairn]

Slightly rude if you have archer allies, but overall also very powerful.

[remote wadi]

...that would be a bit funny to imagine

[real epoch]

The Vex property lasts for the duration listed in the mastery description usually a few seconds per proc it’s not permanent

[humble cairn]

I play a Shillelagh Ranger, so I often have to think about my ranged attacking allies.

[remote wadi]

Everyone using attack rolls at range, and I'm basically the Zapp meme "No need to thank me"

[real epoch]

yep thats true

[real epoch]

yeah playing a Shillelagh Ranger means you gotta keep your ranged buddies in mind while planning moves

[humble cairn]

Luckily I can fairly easily switch to ranged with Magic Stone.

[signal sundial]

really? why's that? Does your DM rule a chance of hitting other combatants in melee?

[humble cairn]

Because Quarterstaff is a Topple weapon and knocking enemies prone is good for melee, but bad for archers.

[signal sundial]

oh, i see, my bad

lol, I have not played with the 2024 rules hardly at all

[humble cairn]

But I can also choose not to use the Topple Mastery.

[signal sundial]

need to fix that

that's an interesting thing about initative. Is that if the enemies turn is between yours and your allies, it won't really matter

since they will likely get up on their turn, unless they were trying to be prone regardless before you hit them

[humble cairn]

Still, knocking enemies down can be very useful. I took out an entire enemy party by myself when they made the mistake of coming after us during our travel on flying mounts.

Net, Topple, Command pet to Shove. Bye bye enemies who just fell hundreds of feet.

[humble cairn]

Knocking an enemy Prone with your first attack means your second will have Advantage. Also, if you can reduce their speed to 0, say by Grappling them, then they're stuck Prone.

[remote wadi]

Is there any way to break free?

[signal sundial]

i think normally you can use your action to end a grapple

[humble cairn]

Grappling Rules

[remote wadi]

Oh, yeah... and monk also gets stunning strike for advantage

[humble cairn]

There's a few ways, yes. Take an action to try and break free, teleport out of range, Shove them so they're out of range, etc.

[remote wadi]

So at level 5, you can make them take 3 con saves or else they're prone

2 from topple, 1 from Stunning Strike

[humble cairn]

If we're talking about Monk, they can get the nasty combo of Prone+Grappled from level 1.

[glass granite]

Stunning strike doesn’t make things prone, but yeah it just needs another unarmed strike just to push them prone

[humble cairn]

Stunned makes you auto fail Dex and Str saves, doesn't it?

[glass granite]

Yup

[remote wadi]

I meant 3 attempts to get advantage

[humble cairn]

Stunning Strike definitely makes pushing them around much easier, but monks can do it before they get Stunning Strike anyway.

[remote wadi]

My bad

[humble cairn]

Unarmed Strike to Shove, then Bonus Unarmed Strike to Grapple.

The Grappler and Street Justice Feats make this even more effective.

[glass granite]

Grappler is my go to for unarmed monks

[tame forge]

You asking about the character art orrr? Im confused here?

[tame forge]

Grapple barb is fun also!

[glass granite]

I’ve only played barb once, and it was a yeet build

So many push effects

[tame forge]

I did a little harengon grapple barb. Grabbed people and lept for 60ft with boots of jumping and racial feat.

Instant removal of enemy. Very fun, 10/10

[humble cairn]

That sounds hilarious and fun

[tame forge]

Nice that rabbits hop isn't tied to movement speed.

[tame forge]

It was amazing!

[limber trail]

You play a gun monk don’t you, what are your thoughts on a gun monk taking grappler?

[humble cairn]

Pretty sure Nugget has played more than one Monk.

[limber trail]

Oh yeah but I’m asking because iirc he’s played a gun monk specifically

Which is also what I’m playing

I’m tossing it up for my level 8 feat after taking sharpshooter

[signal sundial]

a gunk

[glass granite]

It’s been a year since I played them, but grappler? Hmm

I assume 2024?

[limber trail]

Yeah Kensei ‘24

[glass granite]

You got gunner?

[limber trail]

No, sharpshooter

So I’ll be doing one gun and one punch with my attack action

[glass granite]

I see

[limber trail]

I don’t think I actually really want gunner all things considered, weirdly enough. A lot of the best parts of the gun monk build are doing one punch and one shot to maximise value

[glass granite]

Grappler would nullify the disadvantage at melee range

[limber trail]

Well I have sharpshooter so I ignore it

[glass granite]

Oh misread this I thought it was either grappler or sharpshooter

In that case heck yeah grappling gun monk sounds sick!

[pliant sapphire]

Gunner ignores disadvantage too

[glass granite]

Punch and grab then shoot them in the face

[glass granite]

Yeah but they already have sharpshooter, so it’d be redundant for that

[limber trail]

It does but it doesn’t give a longer range or bypass cover iirc and as a monk my punches are already equal to my gun damage. The benefit of the one gun shot is to trigger the extra kensei damage and more range if I need it (which I rarely will)

[glass granite]

Advantage go brrr

[limber trail]

It’s always good for me to have one punch in my attack action to get agile parry up

[limber trail]

But yeah I think atp grappler is one of the best options. If not grappler it’d be like defensive dueling or something

[glass granite]

ASI’s are also good for monk

Speedy/mobile too

[limber trail]

I haven’t had issues with my speed yet so I’m optimistic I don’t need to increase it

[glass granite]

Yeah going fast is what a monk does

[limber trail]

Especially because I have decent ranged options

[glass granite]

Comes with having a gun

[limber trail]

I wondered about an ASI or Resilient for wisdom but I don’t think I will

It would only increase my AC and that’s fine as is

[glass granite]

Also your stunning strike DC, or if it’s dex your accuracy and damage

(For ASI)

[limber trail]

The DM has been very generous with magic items, I’m not needing more accuracy just yet

(+9 to hit at level 4)

[uncut mural]

Oh, fellow Kensei 24 main

[limber trail]

It’s not my main by any means but I’ve been having fun with it and looking forward to more of it

One of my favourite classes to play so far and a really cool subclass within it

[uncut mural]

24 monk is pretty good.

I went back and tried 14 monk and I see why people praise the change

[glass granite]

Love what they did for monks in 2024

[limber trail]

24 monk is a really good time, I’ve not at all been feeling weak like I know some people say ‘15 was

[signal sundial]

"main"

[glass granite]

I’m a monk main, though probably a elemental warrior monk main

[signal sundial]

[uncut mural]

But I'm intrigued as to why not grab Gunner

Skip reloading and combining it with Grappler is awesome

Also, Sharpshooter 15 or 24?

[glass granite]

24
And also it’s 2014 no?

[uncut mural]

14, typed too fast

[humble cairn]

I mean, let people identify how they wish?

[limber trail]

I don’t need to attack twice with the gun in a turn, I get the most of my bonuses by punching once and shooting once using my attack action

[glass granite]

BONK

[tame forge]

Man you say that but still get mad at me. I identify as an A** and a villain. Stop getting mad at me.

[uncut mural]

Insteresting, Grappler is for you then. Although at Level 5, when you get Multiattack, might want to consider Gunner.

[humble cairn]

1. Me? When did I do that?
2. Getting mad at people for what they did or said is different from how they identify.
3. And identifying as something awful doesn't get you off scot free.

[limber trail]

Well that’s what I mean - it’s better to shoot once with multiattack, and deal the extra damage from kensei, and use my other attack to punch, so that I can activate Agile Parry for a +2 AC

[humble cairn]

I also may take things a bit too seriously, so if that was a joke I didn't realize it.

[tame forge]

One does not simply interact with a goose and not expect violence and tyranny.

[tame forge]

No you def yell at me for legitimate reasons. The mods also hate me. Its fine.

[uncut mural]

If you get both Grappler and Gunner, you can Punch, Grab, and shoot them twice with Advantage.

[glass granite]

Hallo Goose, Lupin (yes that’s my Niffler) would like to be friends

[humble cairn]

When did I ever yell at you?

[glass granite]

That also works with sharpshooter I believe

[tame forge]

A few times when I was a complete a** intentionally lmao.

[limber trail]

The second should wouldn’t be meaningfully stronger and would only waste my relatively limited ammo

[uncut mural]

Right, minor change to 24'

Having extra range is nice too

[humble cairn]

I don't think I yell. I can tell you that you did something bad, but that's not necessarily yelling. Yelling isn't my style.

[uncut mural]

Oh, you have ammo limitations? Go for Sharpshooter then

[glass granite]

Yeah from what I can remember Ophid told ya off at worst

[signal sundial]

[limber trail]

(On a mechanical level my punches are also stronger because I add +2 more to their damage and attack rolls)

[tame forge]

Its ok. Just know I am completely aware and unrepentant of my actions. ^.^

[uncut mural]

Maybe tell the DM that you do training in your off-time negotiate a Feat with enough time

That's what I do usually if I want more Feats

[limber trail]

We run other rules for downtime

And I don’t really need gunner. It doesn’t actually do anything for me

[uncut mural]

It will if the DM gives you a powerful gun

Think ahead for a sec

[feral fulcrum]

That reminds, I'll be grabbing Cohort of Chaos soon, that's going to be funny on occasion.

[limber trail]

There aren’t any guns that would be worth it

[glass granite]

Bringing these hands to a gun fight is cooler in my head imo

[uncut mural]

Interesting, you're running Pistol or?

[limber trail]

Well yeah, I can’t two handed wield a gun because my other hand holds the knife

[uncut mural]

You planning full Monk, no dips?

[feral fulcrum]

Grow more arms. looks at the bug people race I forget the name of, in jest

[limber trail]

Probably won’t dip

[glass granite]

You might struggle to grapple then no? Unless you lose the dagger

[limber trail]

That’s a very good point actually

[uncut mural]

Flavor it as leg holds

[glass granite]

It’s why I only take grappler with my armed monks if I go Astral Self

[limber trail]

The mechanics might be the issue

[uncut mural]

True

[glass granite]

Yeah grappling RAW requires a free hand

[signal sundial]

dropping dagger is free, drawing dagger is free as part of attack......simply have a custom made vest that holds 10 daggers on ur chest. Problem solve

[knotty pasture]

Just like the stereotypical assassin

[signal sundial]

^ real

[feral fulcrum]

Sheathing is also just a free object interaction

[glass granite]

More so that if you grapple, you can’t use that hand to stab someone or shoot someone

[uncut mural]

Monster ends up with 30 knives on his back, 30 gunshot wounds, and a mushed brain from all the punching and kicking.

It's actually a bit of a sad point that Monks don't get weapon Mastery

Gotta grab feats or dip classes for them

[humble cairn]

More reasons for Monk superiority. Who needs a hand free?

[humble cairn]

They don't honestly need them.

[glass granite]

Yeah they don’t need them.
But I likey! So I take ranger/rogue dips for it

[uncut mural]

To be fair

Kensei specifically does, but there's no 5.5e releases for it yet so gotta wait

[glass granite]

Helps that it also benefits me with either spellcasting and free hunters mark or sneak attack and expertise

[glass granite]

Yeah i would love a Kensei monk with masteries

[knotty pasture]

Would be nice if Monk gets spear or quarterstaff mastery

[humble cairn]

Hmm .. I don't think Kensei needs them to be effective, but it would make sense for Kensei to have access somehow. My idea is a short list of Masteries they can add to any weapon by spending Focus.

[uncut mural]

Topple is really strong as a control and damage tool

[humble cairn]

Imagine Graze on a Longbow, truly never actually miss.

[uncut mural]

Cleave on Qstaff is really cool too

Or Sap on daggers

[humble cairn]

Right? And it would differentiate them from other Weapon Mastery classes.

[uncut mural]

One problem tho

Running out of Ki

It's still 1 per level

[humble cairn]

Focus economy on a 2024 Monk is much better than it was in 2014.

[glass granite]

Helps that you can get all your points back on an initiative roll yeah

[uncut mural]

Tru tho

A free refill on Initiative is golden

Much needed change

[humble cairn]

Patient Defense and Step of the Wind having free benefits is amazing.

[inner silo]

Are the graviturgy spells like pulse or gravity pull op?

[uncut mural]

But it doesn't really fix the capacity you can throw out in combat

Kensei specifically, Deft Strike burns FP fast

[glass granite]

I mean, you don’t have to be as stingy with it so you can go ham if you want

[humble cairn]

I like the Monk subs that are stance based. Fixed Focus cost for a long term benefit.

[uncut mural]

True

[feral fulcrum]

Stances are always cool.

[glass granite]

I’m not familiar with those

Like, idk what the spells do

[uncut mural]

Dunno if Monks need Fighting Style tho.

Fighter dip is right there too.

[feral fulcrum]

They're definitely not that well balanced from what I recall.

[inner silo]

Alrighty, thanks

[glass granite]

I wouldn’t say they need them

[inner silo]

Aoe damage and pushing/pulling enemies

[glass granite]

They’re at a good place

[uncut mural]

It's welcome to have tho

[reef tundra]

I think I remember the spell Gravity Fissure

[glass granite]

Oh absolutely

[reef tundra]

I recall absolutely decimating a small village with it by accident

Or at least I think it was gravity fissure

[stray sage]

How good of a cantrip is sacred flame?

[inner silo]

If rogues got fighting styles it could buff them quiet a lot

[knotty pasture]

Nugget do you wanna hear a joke

[glass granite]

Not bad

[uncut mural]

Hope Kensei 24' gets both Fighting Style and Mastery.

I really crave an Archer Monk for a while now.

[reef tundra]

Not bad but nothing crazy

[knotty pasture]

What do you call a Monk with a gun? ||A Gunk||

[glass granite]

Sure 👍

[reef tundra]

Useful for when the enemy is taking cover or within melee range

[inner silo]

From my experience it's decent and radiant damage is good but playing bg3 made me scared of it

[glass granite]

I’ve heard this…so many times already
In the true spirit of a dad joke, I approve

[feral fulcrum]

Very hit or miss as a Save Or Suck cantrip.

[reef tundra]

But if they’re in melee range I’d rather use inflict wounds if I have a spell slot

[feral fulcrum]

There's alot of things with decent Dex saves.

[glass granite]

If they’re in melee range I’d rather hit them over the head

[reef tundra]

Good idea

[uncut mural]

If I would DM a campaign, I think I'll just give every class access to Fighting Styles. Classes that already do get an extra one.

[inner silo]

Every martial class?

[reef tundra]

Man, wizards ain’t gonna get a thing out of a fighting style

[inner silo]

+1 permanent ac begs to differ

[reef tundra]

Except bladesingers

[uncut mural]

Yup, and certain subclasses like Hexblade or Bladesinger

[reef tundra]

But they can’t wear armour

[feral fulcrum]

Bladesinger and racial armor profficiency's.

[reef tundra]

And mage armour doesn’t qualify for the defense fighting style

[glass granite]

Yeah but that’s the exception rather than the rule

[feral fulcrum]

They can also get use out of Dueling.

[inner silo]

1 level artificer dip

[reef tundra]

But that means only a single subclass benefits from it

[uncut mural]

AC Bladesingers when I throw Strength,Wisdom, and Charisma saves at them:

[feral fulcrum]

Not really. Any Wizard can use a simple one handed melee weapon.

[inner silo]

But you're right, wizards and sorcerers, wouldn't benefit from it most likely. Druids, warlocks and clerics would though

[reef tundra]

But why would they use that when they’re a wizard and not a blade singer

[glass granite]

-# but why would a wizard use a simple weapon over like, CANTRIPS

[reef tundra]

True that, actually

[knotty pasture]

Fighting styles alone may not save Rogue

[inner silo]

Bladesinger who rolled 18 on every stat because he used chronomancy as a former chronomancy savant

[glass granite]

Yeah apart from those two everyone else would like one

[feral fulcrum]

Because people play things for fun, and need not be Whiteroom Maximumally Optimized to get the most benefit out of being a Wizard.

[knotty pasture]

My hot take idea is that Sneak Attacks should just be unconditional

[inner silo]

For style points

[feral fulcrum]

Much like a Warlock need not inherently only cast Eldritch Blast.

[reef tundra]

It’s not optimisation to use… class abilities

[uncut mural]

Wizards already eat good, extra Fighting Style grants them a nothingburger and it's not really a negative since everyone gets granted one too.

[glass granite]

If I wanted style I’d use shadow blade!

[feral fulcrum]

The point was, people can do strange builds for this thing called fun.

[glass granite]

True, it just feels weird giving nothing burgers for me

[uncut mural]

It's a general rule that high-stat characters tend to roll low

[inner silo]

That would kind of remove the sneak from the sneak attack i think, though anything that buffs rogues i approve of

[uncut mural]

The dice gods will taketh

[reef tundra]

Do you think I’m an optimiser?

[inner silo]

Short sword doesn't hit the same as a staff. And dueling works with a shadow blade

[reef tundra]

Many people here can tell you, I am not an optimiser. My main priority when playing is fun

[uncut mural]

But you can already cast Fireball, there's no reason to buff you.

[feral fulcrum]

"Why do X when Y is better?" Definitely gives the impression.

[inner silo]

So just have 8 in every stat?

[uncut mural]

We ball

[glass granite]

I personally would’ve just excluded them from getting a fighting style at all.
-# well personally I’d only give it to pure martials

[inner silo]

Rangers deserve love too

[glass granite]

I second this btw

[uncut mural]

Remember the Clerics and Druids too

[pliant sapphire]

Strange builds are fun as long as you don't become a burden to your team.

[uncut mural]

Shillelagh is so nice if you have Fighting Style

[inner silo]

+1 ac nice fr

[glass granite]

I personally don’t think Cleric really need it, but anything to buff spores Druid!

[reef tundra]

There’s a difference between optimising and making a regular, functioning character

[inner silo]

Spores druids are goated! Also war clerics should get weapon masteries and a fighting style

[uncut mural]

They get 2 Fighting Styles in total (under my homebrew ruling), so expect combined arms Ranger builds

[knotty pasture]

8 constitution.

[reef tundra]

Its low int wizards all over again

[uncut mural]

No no, I want to see funny Defense builds from Clerics

[knotty pasture]

Are you judging my 17 str 14 dex 14 con Wizard

[uncut mural]

I have a soft spot for Clerics

[inner silo]

I made a 8 dex cleric on my first game and died during the first session

[reef tundra]

If their int is high, then I jam with that /lhj

[glass granite]

I don’t think forge clerics need even more AC lol. Like I like them too but they definitely don’t need it.

[reef tundra]

Ripped wizards will always get a chuckle out of me

[inner silo]

Is it an evocation wizard?

[uncut mural]

Forge? Nah, I'll lock Defence from them specifically tbh

[glass granite]

20 strength wizard we balll

[feral fulcrum]

If you want to consider a Wizard using a simple melee weapon making a non-function charecter, that's...certainly an opinion.

[uncut mural]

That's called Wild Magic Barbarian /s

[inner silo]

It's definitely worse then using a cantrip with you 8 strength

[pliant sapphire]

Unless you have decent DEX/STR

[feral fulcrum]

Certainly. But this is why the Melee Cantrips exist. Especially 2024 True Strike.

[inner silo]

Simple close range dex weapons are all d4 no?

[inner silo]

Right

[feral fulcrum]

One really doesn't need to be a Ranged Wizard, or a Bladesinger, to get use out of melee weapons.

[reef tundra]

If they were using true strike, then I’d say that works. But if they’re just levelling strength and making regular attacks, then it’ll be far worse than just playing a wizard normally

[uncut mural]

Is it a stupid idea to give all classes that have Extra Attack, an extra Extra Attack right at level 1?

I just honestly feel pure Casters are very strong already, and pumping more attacks into Martials and Halves seem logical tbh.

[reef tundra]

And then there’s also the point of who would play a wizard just to use a simple weapon and jab at people

[feral fulcrum]

It majorly messes with the balance, so, yes.

[inner silo]

Give all of them maneuver and some aoe would be better i think rather then "hit more"

[glass granite]

I’d say that’s taking it a bit far

[feral fulcrum]

And if they wanted attack spam right off the bat, that's why Dual Wielding and Nick exists.

[reef tundra]

Martials are fine. I’ve played dnd close to the rules for years and I have seen very little power imbalance.
If a class is consistently doing bad across the whole campaign, either the player or the dungeon master is doing something wrong

[glass granite]

Hm…

[inner silo]

The early game divide will be huge

[uncut mural]

Right, Battle Master maneuvers seem much better

[inner silo]

The real imbalance comes at level 11-12+ which is not a real thing

[glass granite]

You have now inspired me to make a shillelagh non blade singer wizard, I shall be bonking things now

[inner silo]

Even then it's not as big as people say but still

[feral fulcrum]

Looks at their current level 15 charecter

[humble cairn]

No, because the martial/caster divide is not about Damage, it's about Utility.

[inner silo]

Dam, increadible

[hexed slate]

It's not entirely stupid, but it will depend on the level of optimisation.

If the rest of the party is a twilight cleric and a moon druid who changes to shepherd it might not be enough.

[inner silo]

This is why rangers rule

[humble cairn]

Despite common opinion, yes.

[hexed slate]

Rangers are not quite a top half class, but they are very fun

[uncut mural]

That reinforces the BM side of the argument then.

It's pretty cool to have all non-Casters having more things to do on their turns with Maneuver dices

[inner silo]

Having magic, fighting style and expertise gives you a lot of options

[humble cairn]

My Ranger more often than not has an answer for the problems my party faces.

[hexed slate]

Martials should absolutely have some type of linked progression system like casters do

[reef tundra]

I was about to say something about that but no actually I think that is true

[humble cairn]

In theory yes, but in actual implementation there may be different ways to do it.

[feral fulcrum]

The Utility divide is definitely the biggest issue (In regards to fun), but Caster's do definitely out-damage Martials, at least in terms of instant output. But that's 'solved' if you put strain on the caster's resources.

[uncut mural]

Ranger is fun, the real sad part is that Hunter's Mark just dictates some of their features.

[hexed slate]

Eh, utility is the largest issue, but just adding more damage will eventually solve it. It just leads to other problems.

5.5e ranger is stupidly designed

[inner silo]

They can even be the party face

[humble cairn]

Yeah, ask Urizt who DMs something like 8 different games weekly. Martials do fine in comparison to casters if you run long adventuring days.

[glass granite]

I’m relatively fine with it, but I do agree that there are some flaws in the design

[humble cairn]

No, it honestly won't.

[feral fulcrum]

It would disagree that just adding more damage solves the utility problem. Even WOTC acknowledged in by giving Fighter more out of combat things to do.

[humble cairn]

There are some issues, but it runs very well from actual play experience.

[hexed slate]

Here from a table that does very long adventuring days.

It will depend on the casters.

Casters picking mediocre options will be beaten by martials picking the best options.

But casters picking the best options will absolutely be more useful than martials picking the best options.

[feral fulcrum]

Unless you're only here for the Combat, Martials do find themselves feeling a bit...useless, when Casters start solving all the problems.

[hexed slate]

It's still decently strong (as will basically anything with half casting, extra attack and archery), it's just badly designed.

[humble cairn]

And to be honest, most tables don't even really see a divide at all.

[hexed slate]

The hunters mark features especially feel bad

[reef tundra]

While I do agree that most of the time, the casters do have solutions to problems that Martials can’t do, I wouldn’t say it’s that far. In almost all of my games, the martials never feel useless in most situations, with a few exceptions

[uncut mural]

Might try to work on a martial arts skill tree for all martials and halves.

Martials get full progression, halves get half progression, martial caster subclasses use 1-third progression, basically a separate skill tree similar to Spellcasting but for weapon and unarmed techniques.

[glass granite]

I personally don’t. In fact my barbarian is going ham on my enemies.

[humble cairn]

"Feel bad" is vague, I mean I get it, but I'm playing a Ranger right now and it doesn't feel bad to me.

[reef tundra]

Absolutely! I myself have never seen it in combat, and very rarely seen it outside of combat

[uncut mural]

Remove concentration?

[humble cairn]

Ranger is not Hunter's Mark dependent, you can ignore it and play great.

[hexed slate]

As in, they force you to pick between using ranger's good concentration spells and bonus actions, and getting to use their features. This is bad design. Players want to use their features.

[humble cairn]

This has been tested at least three times pubicly over the years and never tests well.

[uncut mural]

Yikes.

[hexed slate]

This is the easiest fix.

The few times they tested it, they also nerfed the spell, so it didn't test well.

[reef tundra]

I agree. And the free casts of it mean you can go back it it easily without cost

[feral fulcrum]

The UA I've seen makes me doubt that very much. WOTC is eyeing subclasses that require you to be using HM to activate your subclass stuff. I hate it.

[humble cairn]

Hunter's Mark is not the solution to every problem, as long as you're using it for the right situation, there's not reason to feel bad.

[uncut mural]

Might also implement Roleplay features into the Martial Art skill tree

[humble cairn]

My actual played experience says that Ranger is 100% fine without using Hunter's Mark. Okay maybe 98% fine.

[hexed slate]

Then there shouldn't be features which rely on it.

Replace those features with ones that function whenever you are concentrating on a spell and I guarantee ranger will feel better.

[uncut mural]

You have much better things to Concentrate on than HM

[hexed slate]

Players want to use their features.

[reef tundra]

That’s actually a pretty good idea!

[reef tundra]

Me too. I agree

[humble cairn]

Yeah, and most of those things are useful for things that HM would't be for anyway, so it makes total sense to use another spell.

[inner silo]

I think the main reason it makes people feel bad is because 3 class features including the capstone of ranger are related to it and that the "main ranger class resource" in their resource table are their free uses of hunters mark

[feral fulcrum]

I still can't beleive that HM NEVER loses it's Concentration requirement. It's asburdly stupid.

[humble cairn]

If you need area control, use Entangle. The situation calls for somethig besides HM, which is single target damage.

[humble cairn]

It's not a big deal in actual play, tbh.

[inner silo]

Ranger actually have a lot of class features iirc

[reef tundra]

Agreed

[humble cairn]

A ton

[uncut mural]

Like Performance of Blades, or Gunspinning, or Courteous Mannerisms, or Disciplined Mindset, all that good stuff that gives them buffs to mental-related rolls.

[reef tundra]

It’s just people confusing subjective for objective

[inner silo]

They may be mostly small individually but especially at early levels they stack up quickly

[humble cairn]

If you try to use Hunter's Mark for every combat situation, of course you're going to suffer. Because it's not FOR every combat situation.

[feral fulcrum]

Given it's a core feature, that they expect you to use at every oppurtunity, and disincentivises you from using any other Concentration spells at your disposal. It's just very crap design for a big part of Ranger's features. And don't get me started on the joke of a Capstone again. Foams at the mouth

[reef tundra]

Those actually sound pretty cool!

[hexed slate]

From my experience, it usually takes a players avoiding strong spells or a very good DM to make it completely not noticeable. Generally a table will either:

a) have relatively low optimisation players, but also run few combats, allowing full casters (and paladins) to spam resources, which does feel very strong.

b) run enough combats, but be at an optimisation level where casters use the strongest options, and so there is still a problem.

And this is just in combat, outside is an entirely separate issue.

[humble cairn]

I don't know where you're getting "use at every opportunity" because that's bad tactics.

[reef tundra]

Okay I can agree about that capstone ability point, the capstone is a joke

[inner silo]

You shouldn't look at it as focus points

[feral fulcrum]

The "You get a bunch of extra uses of it for free each day." Bits?

[humble cairn]

Same. Even I can admit that.

[hexed slate]

Because players want to use their features. It's that simple.

The way 5.5e ranger is designed encourages you to use hunters mark often

[humble cairn]

Still doesn't mean what you think it means and my point stands.

[reef tundra]

Means you can cast it again for free after casting other concentration spells

[uncut mural]

Point is, many Martials need more ways to shine out of combat, AND in combat.

It's not that Martials are bad, they feel like an incomplete package compared to Casters.

[hexed slate]

You can play ranger and be solid by almost ignoring hunters mark, but in that case getting features which you will rarely use feels bad.

[reef tundra]

While I personally think Martials are fine, I won’t object to giving them more things to do

[uncut mural]

I want my CHA 12 Fighter to be flirting with the guys and gals too!

[humble cairn]

I use my Ranger features all the time. Mainly spells and my Primal Companion. I can totally ignore Hunter's Mark and be fine, because most situations didn't call for it. I've used it ... twice, and it was effective and good in those situations.

[reef tundra]

The joys of life

[uncut mural]

Indeed

[hexed slate]

Imo the biggest issue here is that martials have issues doing anything but damage.

Casters get utility, healing, support, control, summons, Aoe damage and single target damage etc

Martials almost exclusively get single target damage.

[pliant sapphire]

Yes. I think that's the "problem"

[humble cairn]

Getting a class that runs smooth and has tools to address many situations feels good, maybe I'm weird but I don't feel bad for not using a tool that doesn't fit the situation, even if I get free uses of it.

[hexed slate]

Imo either make hunters mark non concentration at lv5, or make the features work with any concentration spell.

[humble cairn]

Sure, I get free uses, but if it's not the right tool why would I use it?

[reef tundra]

I don’t think this is a case of “bad design” I think it’s a case of “i personally do not like it”

[uncut mural]

Exactly: If you're up there with your martial prowess, fighting that terrible force of evil, you better be good at it! A hero of that caliber shouldn't be a Klutz out-of-combat, right?

[feral fulcrum]

And when said tool becomes the "It's never the right time to use it." And has so much design space allocated to it... Kind of starts looking like a mistake to me.

[humble cairn]

Yeah, I feel like that, too.

[hexed slate]

I think this is a case of bad design. Players don't like dead levels, and hunters mark based features when it is a good idea to ignore hunters mark leads to dead levels.

[humble cairn]

But even me, who basically ignored it, still did find the right time to use it. Sure it was only twice, but it was an actual benefit.

[reef tundra]

I feel that whenever any class is getting heat. I think all 12 core classes are perfectly fine

[pliant sapphire]

Ignore half of the class feats because you want to play another way than focuse on a concentration hunters mark is not a good class design

[uncut mural]

I'm thinking of making powerful melee techniques for the MA skill tree too, if you're up against the monster's eye, it better be worth it.

[pliant sapphire]

Even if the class still good without the use of HM

[humble cairn]

It's a feature that is about focusing damage on a single target, that's it. It's not meant to be a tool for every situation.

[humble cairn]

I think people really over hype the problems they have with Ranger.

[reef tundra]

Well, I can respect that. While I personally disagree, I will just agree to disagree

[hexed slate]

It's not even good at focusing damage on a single target compared to many other spells.

[humble cairn]

From levels 1-9 it doesn't really have direct competition in the Ranger list.

[reef tundra]

Agreed

[humble cairn]

I did a spell by spell comparison at least up that high.

[hexed slate]

Ranger is okay balance wise (could do with buffs, but other classes need it more), but my issue isn't so much with balance as it is with design.

Having features that only work when you are using one spell is bad design.

[humble cairn]

After level 9 it would be a backup for when you're out of spell slots.

[reef tundra]

Anyway I will concede. Since this is a matter of opinions, neither side will sway.

[hexed slate]

Summon beast at lv5 beats it.

[humble cairn]

Yes, IF you have a decent Wisdom score.

[hexed slate]

(depending slightly on the ranger)

[humble cairn]

Believe me, that's my build.

[hexed slate]

You want a decent wisdom score anyways due to changes to higher level spells.

[humble cairn]

I am a Wisdom maxed Beast Master, but not every Ranger will be Wisdom maxed.

[hexed slate]

Like Conjure Animals

[humble cairn]

If it's not your highest score, you're still risking that accuracy.

And a martial Ranger with a weapon focus might not want to sacrifice that accuracy. Your Nick/Dual Wielding Hunter would still get more from HM up to level 9 than Summon Beast.

HM is not an answer to every problem and I don't really know why people are so upset about that.

[hexed slate]

Imo you always start with at least a 16 in wisdom.

But it also has pack tactics, so accuracy tends to sort itself out.

Plus, it doesn't take repeated bonus actions

Opening up other uses for them

Like many ranger subclasses have

[humble cairn]

Choice of summons is also something to consider, my DM likes to kill pets so I've been choosing the flying ones, they last longer when they can flyby and go hide somewhere between attacking.

[humble cairn]

Okay? And if you're using HM for it's correct situation you don't really have to use repeated Bonus Actions, either.

[hexed slate]

If they target it, that's upside - it's damage someone else isn't taking.

[humble cairn]

Because you're again focusing on a single target.

Don't use HM when it's not warranted and you won't be upset about how it's not suited for the situation.

[hexed slate]

This is why I rate summon beast much higher than spiritual weapon. Summon beast can take damage for you.

[humble cairn]

I graduated myself to Summon Fey, though.

Better damage and I love Charm tanking.

Get a Charm off on an enemy, then place yourself and your pet correctly and the enemy can't AOE your party.

[uncut mural]

Bizarre change to HM but:

Hunter's Smite
1/turn, when you hit an attack against a Marked target, you may expend a First Level Spell slot to deal +2d6 Force damage, and this increases by 1d6 with each subsequent level of spell slots you spend.```

GIVE HM SMITE FEATURE WOOOOOO

[hexed slate]

Would definitely be an improvement

[humble cairn]

I bet #homebrew loves talking about homebrewing HM.

[hexed slate]

The funny part is that divine favour exists

[uncut mural]

Imma throw this in and watch them devolve into chaos

[knotty pasture]

Isn't this just Horizon Walker Ranger's feature on steroids

[hexed slate]

And they removed concentration from it in 5.5e, and it doesn't take repeated bonus actions!

[knotty pasture]

Bad subclass tbh so I get it but

[tame estuary]

didn't know steroids was one extra die

I should take notes

[hexed slate]

So they clearly know how to fix this... They just didn't.