dnd-discussion

[empty thicket]

some say for 1 week, others for 1 month

[fossil shuttle]

I'm just talking about Ceremony. I get how spellcastic foci work, but not being able to use a religious symbol for a religious ceremony just seems kinda weird?

[empty thicket]

or re marry with another person, a party of 4 can have like 16 marriages

[grizzled lance]

Kill them and then remarry them

[empty thicket]

too expensive

[grizzled lance]

Till death to us part be damned

[undone rain]

Now we see why henry the 8th had 6 wives

[minor cargo]

I know it doesn't say so explicitly, but given the overall context, I probably would ask the player how their holy symbol (and honestly other parts of their faith if applicable) is used/leveraged during the 1 hour casting time.

So for me, I don't see it as the holy symbol isn't used, but rather, you have to ALSO use (consume) the 25 gp material cost.

[crystal latch]

The basic use of Ceremony is making holy water, Ceremony has to have an expensive component so it doesn't let you convert 1st-level slots to 25 gp

[empty thicket]

the zealot can be revived without price tho, so its an extra use to that class beside of fighting without worrying too much

[grizzled lance]

Unless it’s a zealot barbarian me and my friend did this

[grizzled lance]

It’s only 25 gp which isn’t all that much in terms of material components

Like that’s one of the cheaper ones besides like Jim’s magic missle

Or detect thoughts

[empty thicket]

or change allignment of someone or the Coming of Age or Dedication

[grizzled lance]

But I don’t think detect counts as “costly”

[empty thicket]

Funeral can be used on your allies if you worry of some necromancer bringing them back to life

[grizzled lance]

Idk coming of age + a zealot barbarian is a fun thing I’ve done before

Only issue is it requires a friend

[spring light]

the real issue is the friends we made along the way

[empty thicket]

requires a Paladin or Cleric.
Both are common classes and almost every party have one

[spring light]

at one point my party had 3 paladins

[grizzled lance]

Oh mean and my friend played a married couple but one thing went horribly wrong during one of the revive so he became a reborn

[crystal latch]

It's the price of holy water

[grizzled lance]

Oh dang it is

[empty thicket]

"For (Name X reason and each one name a different one)"
Stare each other
Violence

[crystal latch]

The exact amount to make production of holy water a net zero investment

[grizzled lance]

Range be damned

[spring light]

2 of them were super daring with gold dragonborn paladin

[grizzled lance]

I’m pretty sure there’s a Paladin subclass that gets guiding bolt

[spring light]

my table could occasionally be up to 8, so it wasn't a big deal.

[grizzled lance]

Bro..

[spring light]

most sessions it was 6, maybe 7.

[grizzled lance]

How do you mange

[spring light]

just fine.

[empty thicket]

Oh look, checking Paladin Oath of Vengance get Hunter mark

[grizzled lance]

Vengeance is an amazing Paladin subclass

[empty thicket]

and the one that get guiding bolt is Glory oath

[grizzled lance]

If you don’t wanna invest all that much into charisma

Like getting advantage against someone for 1 minute is so fun

[crystal latch]

Vengeance is... one of the things ever printed

Basically what you'd get if Reddit tried designing a paladin subclass

[reef tundra]

I love it <3

[grizzled lance]

It’s a good subclass

[reef tundra]

The edge is perfect for me

[crystal latch]

It's certainly not the worst

[grizzled lance]

It’s the one oath where I can say CURSE YOU input npc here and mean it

[reef tundra]

Ha I still remember my oath of vengeance paladin that swore vengeance on… society as a whole

She was funny

[severe rampart]

I realized I was talking over my DM accidentally because of technical difficulties (I wasn't able to hear him talking) I feel so horrible 💔

[grizzled lance]

I played a vengeance Paladin that swore it against a dragon that burned down her town

[reef tundra]

If you didn’t know then it’s not your fault <3

[reef tundra]

A classic

[grizzled lance]

CURSE YOU BAYLE

[reef tundra]

Solid of scale you might be, foul dragon, but I will riddle with holes your rotten hide

[empty thicket]

It can be a whole plot thing
A party that is searching a group that would be the BBEG group and want vengance against them, while they fix the things the BBEG group did

[grizzled lance]

That too it’s really easy to make a Vengeance Paladin

[empty thicket]

or just a whole vengance campaign

[sudden comet]

wasgud people. I joined a dnd session but i know nothing about dnd.
Whats the basics? (i have the call with my friend in an hour)

[reef tundra]

Paladin and warlocks are both very good at encouraging lore, since you have to think of when and why the character swore their oath or made their pact

[burnt valley]

lmao

[reef tundra]

Although warlock does a little extra and makes you think of what they made their pact with

[empty thicket]

A fighter who his army got all slay by the BBEG and was left because wasnt strong enough and wont be a problem to them
A Druid//Ranger that got his forest burned down to destroy a whole reservoir of nature
An artificer that got his workshop destroyed and stole all his items after making a deal with the BBEG party and got betrayed
A cleric//paladin who his church got destroyed by the BBEG party because they deny any deity
etc. etc.

[reef tundra]

I suppose you can do the same with paladin and pick a god or smth but warlocks have more variety in patron

[grizzled lance]

I wish Tasha was in more adventures

[reef tundra]

I do too…

[grizzled lance]

The main one I can remember her from is Venca eye of ruin

[steel moth]

real

[reef tundra]

To each their own

[north hawk]

Tashas in Vecna and another one I DM'd. It's a spoiler to give the name.

[grizzled lance]

Way of four elements monk is still the silliest sub class of all time

[reef tundra]

I think Tasha is very cool

[stoic haven]

2014, absolutely on the basis of mechanics and scaling

[reef tundra]

How so? I love it

[grizzled lance]

It’s just so bad in 2014

[reef tundra]

I love the 2024, no way I’m taking 2014

[reef tundra]

It was mental back then, but in a bad way

[grizzled lance]

I said way of four elements

Beast master ranger and berserker barbarian are in the same tier as well

[stoic haven]

At least Beast master got Tasha's update

[grizzled lance]

True

[reef tundra]

I haven’t tried 2024 beast master yet

[grizzled lance]

But I mean just in the players hand book

[crystal latch]

PHB Beast Master has actually decent tech

Adding your PB to a lot of stuff gives it a few interesting things to mess around with

[grizzled lance]

Yeah but there’s also a very real possibility that your beast can die in combat

There’s also warlock pact of the undying one

[crystal latch]

The beast is first and foremost a mount for a Small PC

[reef tundra]

-# We don’t talk about that subclass /lhj

[crystal latch]

The second thing it can do is use certain magic items, provided that you're far enough away to count as "absent" so it takes its own actions

[grizzled lance]

Anybody could do the exact same them with find familiar

[crystal latch]

2014 FF doesn't have any Medium options

[grizzled lance]

It.. does through..?

Found one deer cr 0 beast size medium

[crystal latch]

You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the familiar has the statistics of the chosen form, though it is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast.

[grizzled lance]

Right I forgot you can’t just pick

[stark maple]

through the new just allows you to pick giant fly so you can now have a fly speed as a druid

[crystal latch]

Yep. Or any CR 0 nystuled into a beast

[grizzled lance]

If a simulacrum cast wish does the ill effects hurt the caster or what

[valid geyser]

It’d hurt the simulacrum

[grizzled lance]

I see

[burnt valley]

AL patches this but there's one more workaround that they didn't patch

[grizzled lance]

Al?

[burnt valley]

adventurer's league

[grizzled lance]

I mean if you take the time to get 17 level get 1500gp as well as spend the 12 hours I feel like that’s all you

[crystal latch]

1500 gp is basically nothing at 17th level

[burnt valley]

true

Creation+Fabricate solves all the money issues

[grizzled lance]

12 hours is

[crystal latch]

It's not that much really

[grizzled lance]

…

[crystal latch]

You're tier 4, you don't need to get out of bed unless there's an existential threat

[burnt valley]

you just send your minions to do all the adventuring at that point

[crystal latch]

Yep

[grizzled lance]

They only have half the hit points through

[crystal latch]

As a tier 4 spellcaster you can have entire armies of minions before taking into account the fact that you may very well be running your own country

[burnt valley]

preferably recreating Netheril if you're based

[crystal latch]

True

[reef tundra]

Hell yeah

[halcyon forum]

I don’t think most games are that open ended

[grizzled lance]

Depends on the dm

[halcyon forum]

That is what I said

[crystal latch]

At high levels railroading switches from a bad practice to an impossible one because of the sheer number of things the PCs can do

[severe rampart]

first initiative roll of the oneshot, three out of four of us got a 2

[valid geyser]

idk i think you can easily prevent that stuff as a DM by saying there's a ruby shortage

[burnt valley]

This is something only exclusive to full casters, martials cant do any of this

[grizzled lance]

Idk a lot of 2024 monsters got mega buffed

[halcyon forum]

Not every game is a sandbox

[crystal latch]

It's kind of like how there isn't really a "pirate campaign" or a "campaign set in this small region" past level 12-ish, the campaign setting is the entire planet at that point at minimum

[burnt valley]

in return, buffing True Polymorph since we have access to their statblock

[valid geyser]

not inherently

[grizzled lance]

True polymorph was actually nerfed in 2024

Since you still keep your hit points and hit point dice

[crystal latch]

Hit points don't matter for true poly though

[halcyon forum]

If I run an adventure in tier 3 or 4 I have no problem keeping it localized without railroading. The players do sign off on the basic premise beforehand after all

[grizzled lance]

It does since all damage now goes to you the caster instead of the polymorphed creature

[crystal latch]

With true poly the only thing that matters is that one spell is basically granting you access to every feature ever printed in a monster statblock and you're basically mail-ordering them to your house, so to speak

It could be giving you a hit point penalty and still be the best spell in the game

[burnt valley]

martials truly are lul

[grizzled lance]

forces you to drop concentration instantly

[crystal latch]

?

[valid geyser]

also from a realism of gameplay sense most casters pick combat spells before the downtime stuff spells

[grizzled lance]

Idk I really like magnificent mansion

[burnt valley]

too bad they had the spell on an hour beforehand so its permanent

[grizzled lance]

A lot of monsters just have the ability to stun paralyze or force you to drop concentration in the new rules

[crystal latch]

Doesn't matter for true poly though because the spell becomes permanent after an hour

[valid geyser]

not the case with the 2024 ver

[grizzled lance]

I think it’s changed in 2024 yeah

[burnt valley]

bold of you to assume they couldn't counter dispelling it

[grizzled lance]

Dispel magic

[crystal latch]

2024 True Poly

The transformation lasts for the duration or until the target dies or is destroyed, but if you maintain Concentration on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until dispelled.

[grizzled lance]

I still stand by Sul Kentish being the strongest 5e monster

[crystal latch]

Nah, she's top 20 material but not the strongest

[grizzled lance]

How

[crystal latch]

Orcus (summon 500 liches with 1 HP remaining for every day of downtime)
Szass Tam (147 wishes per day)

[burnt valley]

again, you are assuming they don't have a way around it

[grizzled lance]

That’s only cause he has that wand which can be stolen

[burnt valley]

do we include the ones that could spawn an infinite army

[crystal latch]

Yes

[burnt valley]

Atropal and sword wraith commander

[grizzled lance]

Where is the Szass’s stat block

[crystal latch]

Death of Szass Tam AL adventure

[reef tundra]

I’ve been looking for a Szass Tam stat block for ages

[reef tundra]

Ty

[valid geyser]

for orcus, it says average hit points. But even then that's like, 3 MM14 liches. Nothing to scoff at though

[atomic kayak]

Yea a lot of monsters can have concentration drop from conditions

[crystal latch]

It's the last part of the Dreams of the Red Wizards series, I recommend it in general - it's a good adventure

[reef tundra]

2024 Orcus can summon 30 regular HP liches

[burnt valley]

do u want the link cuz i have it

[reef tundra]

Oh yes please!

[grizzled lance]

I still don’t think that’s fair cause any player character can do that with his wand

[crystal latch]

No

[grizzled lance]

Wdym “no”

[crystal latch]

Only Orcus can summon better undead and have them last forever

[reef tundra]

Yes, Only Orcus can do it

[burnt valley]

i dm'd you it

[reef tundra]

Ty

[valid geyser]

500 hp worth of undead is two off from summining three liches and a mummy lord

[grizzled lance]

Just summon demi liches

[burnt valley]

Orcus can summon Szass Tams

[grizzled lance]

I’m over hear wondering what chill touch at 17 level means

[crystal latch]

He casts it as a 17th level caster

[grizzled lance]

Pretty sure he has more then 500 hp at cr 30

[burnt valley]

He has 180 lul

[reef tundra]

That would be really funny

[grizzled lance]

“Orcus cast chills touch”(17th level)

Kinda weak for a legendary action

[burnt valley]

It is, even funnier, its something that he can already do

[reef tundra]

I knew I chose the right Demon Lord to be my favourite

[grizzled lance]

How is he in any way shape or form considered cr 30…

[crystal latch]

Szass Tam can, notably, print CR 21 aberrations as a legendary action
They stick around forever

Also he has three 9th level slots

[grizzled lance]

That might be why

[burnt valley]

he has Epic Resistances that allow him to succeed on all saves until the end of his next turn

[crystal latch]

He's basically a 30th-level wizard, that's fitting for CR 30

[grizzled lance]

No saves against these fist

[burnt valley]

The only thing holding him back is not giving him access to True Polymorph and Shapechange

[grizzled lance]

Again I still doubt there’s 17 other monsters that are stronger then sul ketish as a spell caster

[twilit summit]

Bro invited me to campaign, then kicked out and blocked for no reason 💀💀💀

[grizzled lance]

Not counting the aspects

[crystal latch]

Aspects?

[unborn geyser]

I put a bunch of requests to join people’s DnD games and I haven’t gotten a single answer now the heck does this happen?

[twilit summit]

Ppl aren't interested in you/You didn't provide enough info

[lyric viper]

Or just patience I'm afraid.

Getting a group might be one of your first big hurdles.

I recommend looking out for newbie friendly games, oneshots (short games that last one session or so), and Adventure League (Organised play ⁠⁠al-general ), or westmarches (large servers where people run spontaneous games for players).

These are all ways of meeting people quickly and playing with them, to see if you get along- think of it a little bit like speed dating. You want to know you all click before committing to a full game together for ages.

[crystal latch]

Orcus
Szass Tam
Nine archdevil statblocks
Daemogoth titan
Zodar
Atropal
Ancient time dragon
Quenthel Baenre

That's sixteen statblocks better than Sul

[valid geyser]

atropal? the CR 13?

and dont give me some BS prep time stuff

[crystal latch]

The CR 13 that prints a CR 5 every 36 seconds, yes

[burnt valley]

2400 wraiths in one day

this proves CR is simply not an accurate measure of a creature's power

[lyric viper]

Or, if you want to guarantee getting a game- try DMing. It's actually a lot of fun and there are plenty of tools to help you out. Kidnap some friends, or offer to run a prewritten adventure for folk online.

[unborn geyser]

I don’t have the time or focus to dm

[grizzled lance]

Why can’t I find this guys stat block

[crystal latch]

Which one?

[grizzled lance]

The lich

[crystal latch]

DDAL-DRW "Death of Szass Tam" adventure

[grizzled lance]

I can’t find the book

[valid geyser]

meh

[burnt valley]

A non-sandbagging Szass Tam just simply walks over a low to mid op party

[valid geyser]

wraiths cant fly

oh they can, nevermind

[burnt valley]

DMs that run the epic has to sandbag for this sole reason

[lyric viper]

Then try out the other suggestions. Be patient, spread your net, slowly network and make friends online.

Or, again- rope some friends together for a oneshot to try it out, or look for local games to join.

[grizzled lance]

How they described vecna

[pearl hedge]

would I only be able to cast something akin to dancing lights if i had prestidigitation? i only have thatamaturgy at the moment

[grizzled lance]

Vs actually fighting vecna

I wonder how many cr 30 threats are actually out there compared to dnd beyond

[pearl hedge]

magical darkness is the worst

[reef tundra]

Laughs in warlock /lhj

[grizzled lance]

Asmodues isn’t

[steady jewel]

I haven't decided what class i want to be

[crystal latch]

We have stats for Dendar and Kyuss, Kyuss might be CR 26 though - I don't remember

[grizzled lance]

From chains of Asmodues

[crystal latch]

Dendar's a massive pushover though

[burnt valley]

Dendar is quite disappointing of a statblock though

[burnt valley]

walled by Rope Trick btw

[grizzled lance]

The only cr 30 stat blocks on dnd beyond are the tarrasque both the aspects and Tiamat herself

[pearl hedge]

we're all level 2 and we don't have a warlock 🥲

[solar crow]

One of the players in my campaign had to drop out of the campaign as of last week😭 😭 he said he'd be too busy with school (we're in D&D club) to consistently come to meetings

We still have 5 people but I'm sad

[reef tundra]

I really wanna play chains of Asmodeus, just to fight him

[grizzled lance]

Should Druids be able to become owlbears

[crystal latch]

CoA is a silly adventure

[normal junco]

if prestidigitation could make the same effect as dancing lights, we wouldn't have dancing lights.

[reef tundra]

It does seem like it

[grizzled lance]

Still official

[pearl hedge]

yeah that's fair enough

[burnt valley]

WE love Ioulaum's Longevity

[grizzled lance]

I still think it’s crazy that there’s an arch devil that can do double damage to you if your vulnerable to necrotic or fire

There’s an item that does it as well

[reef tundra]

I don’t really intend to win, I just want the ability to say I fought Asmodeus as a player

In an official(ish?) adventure

[crystal latch]

Asmodeus is an interesting fight, takes a bit of effort to win

[grizzled lance]

I mean the fact that he can summon any arch devil is a pretty annoying thing to deal with

[burnt valley]

His statblock is that strong?

[reef tundra]

Excellent

[grizzled lance]

He has minor spell immunity as well

[crystal latch]

He has a bunch of stuff you need to be prepared to deal with

[steel moth]

I suppose anything not immediately default killable is somewhat a threat at least

[pearl hedge]

@grizzled lance @crystal latch @solar crow so me and my party just got to a room in a dungeon where a cult worships the dead three (Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal) and the ceiling started to cave in, so we decided to go down and through a sarcophagus that was in front of using a grappling hook. was this a dumb idea? (also, the door locked behind us and the sarcophagus's entrance is blanketed in magical darkness)

[reef tundra]

I’ve already got plans for devil’s sight as a warlock for that darkness legendary action

[burnt valley]

Fair

[crystal latch]

Devil's sight is meh but at that high level you might as well

[reef tundra]

No clue about the rest of the plan

[grizzled lance]

Nvm it’s anti magic aura

[solar crow]

Oooo

[grizzled lance]

He also has a submission aura

[reef tundra]

Agreed, it’s very situational, but yeah might as well

[steel moth]

I dont remember Asomodeus's statblock and I cant be bothered to look it up, how is he compared to Suul Khatesh

[grizzled lance]

He regen 40 hp unless he takes radiant damage

[reef tundra]

Paladin/cleric’s time to shine

Or anyone with a sun blade

[crystal latch]

Or just burst damage in general and chill touch him once

[grizzled lance]

Spells of 4th level or lower don’t effect him

[grizzled lance]

Wouldn’t work

[reef tundra]

Cleric’s time to shine
-# Sorry pallys, my babies

[normal junco]

if you want to know what kind of shenanigans Asmodeus (admittedly he seems at reduced capability in this campaign) is capable of, just watch Exandria Unlimited: Calamity.

[pearl hedge]

devil's sight isn't really needed if you have at least one person with darkvision in your party

[valid geyser]

seems easier to kill two birds with one stone by using divine smite stuff

[crystal latch]

I'd probably bring 2wiz2lock against Asmodeus

[grizzled lance]

Prey your using 2014 and not 2024 where divine smite is a spell for some reason

[steel moth]

doesnt damage =/= the rider effect doesnt apply

[reef tundra]

Ah, Exandria! One day I’ll play a campaign in that setting!

[grizzled lance]

Spells of 4th level OR LOWER don’t effect Asmodues meaning that the spell just wouldn’t do anything

[pearl hedge]

@reef tundra @steel moth opinion?

[steel moth]

"Antimagic Aura. Asmodeus has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects. Spells of level 4 or lower can't damage Asmodeus."

[normal junco]

seriously, watch Calamity. episode 4 goes bananas.

[grizzled lance]

Ph

[steel moth]

You misread

[grizzled lance]

Chilling gaze is also pretty bad

Giving you a minus -1 on attack rolls

[valid geyser]

also there even is the ruby absorption effect. That would like, for sure just stop the spell effect

[crystal latch]

2 wizards 2 warlocks should just stomp Asmo with more or less standard tactics

[grizzled lance]

Make an int save

[steel moth]

I really dont know without the full context dawg

[crystal latch]

Let's open his statblock

[grizzled lance]

Infernal word stun DC 24 int saving throw

[valid geyser]

i mean without wis save proficiency they just cant succeed against submission aura. So asmodeus can just individually pick them off and all that

[crystal latch]

"targets a creature he can see" -> Sleet Storm counters this

[steel moth]

lul

[crystal latch]

As does fog cloud etc, Asmo doesn't have blindsight

[grizzled lance]

You mean the spell he can’t just remove

[valid geyser]

ruby absorption

[crystal latch]

Ruby Absorption. As a reaction to being the sole target of a spell, Asmodeus can attempt to absorb the spell into the Ruby Rod.
Asmodeus is not the sole target of an AoE hazard

[grizzled lance]

He can also just summon a a pit fiend

Or again any arch devil

[crystal latch]

This is why you need enough DPR from summons to kill at least one pit fiend per round

[grizzled lance]

He can still summon a “underling”

As a liar action

Which is ANY arch devil

[valid geyser]

i think hed still be the sole target if he was the only one effected by the spell

[burnt valley]

lul

[valid geyser]

the wording of sole target is different than most effects like it

[reef tundra]

If I ever fight him, I’m running to you /positive

[crystal latch]

The spell targets its area, not a specific creature

[grizzled lance]

I think your still forgetting that he can just summon Abel dispater or mammon

[crystal latch]

He will have one single chance to do so most likely before we kill him, his minions are entirely killable

[grizzled lance]

Or Mephistopheles

[valid geyser]

areas of effect do target creatures still

[grizzled lance]

It goes on int count 20 since it’s a lair action

[normal junco]

bah, i fought that guy in Neverwinter Nights.

[valid geyser]

targets are the creatures that make the saves for effects or have attack rolls amde against

[crystal latch]

Iirc SAC claims a spell also targets its area

[grizzled lance]

You are dramatically down playing his lair actions

[crystal latch]

His lair actions are not all that terrifying

[reef tundra]

I’m cooked

[grizzled lance]

Haste hold monster summon another arch devil making a ranged attack casting a spell that can last for the full duration without concentration

Teleporting 120 feet away

[steel moth]

"Haste"

[valid geyser]

also hold monster is assumed DC 27. a PC needs wis save proficiency or else theyre just out of the fight

[crystal latch]

LMAO his call underlings requires line of sight too

[burnt valley]

lul

[grizzled lance]

When he has a move that eat away at your max hp

[valid geyser]

asmodeus is immune to blinded

[grizzled lance]

^

[steel moth]

melee lul

[reef tundra]

That’s metal af

[valid geyser]

heavily obscured does nothing to him

[burnt valley]

dawg you're just scraping bits of things asmodeus could potentially do, yet there's still more counters

[crystal latch]

True, slightly better for him
We simply need to use a solid wall etc

[jovial shadow]

I imagine most Arch Devils don't look terrifying if you are already prepared for them. If they happen to pop up in a campaign, you haven't optimized for. Well...

[grizzled lance]

Hmm yes solid walls In hell

[normal junco]

really it comes down to how well the DM plays and utilizes Asmodeus.

[valid geyser]

so youre saying hide in a forcecage and cry?

[steel moth]

solid walls are pretty easy to come by at that point

[reef tundra]

I’d trust optimisers to defeat anything /positive

[grizzled lance]

Not to mention that Asmodues would most likely force you to expand all of your abilities before you could fight the real hun

[steel moth]

just make some

[crystal latch]

He wouldn't because his capabilities are inferior to those of a tier 4 caster

[grizzled lance]

Easier said then done

[crystal latch]

Asmodeus is not equipped to deal with a highop tier 4 party, nothing in this system is

This is a power level that can only be stalemated, not defeated

[grizzled lance]

Well duh

[valid geyser]

again, i think he just kills anyone without wis save proficiency

[grizzled lance]

He can still stun you for 1 minute with a stare that’s an int save

Which very few classes have

[burnt valley]

line of sight lul

[crystal latch]

The solution to Submission Aura is getting frightened immunity

[steel moth]

wis save prof is the standard in high-optimisation honestly

[valid geyser]

explain how

[grizzled lance]

We’ve been over how he’s immune to being blinded

[steel moth]

most builds take a feat in wis prof, or just Deck of Wonders

[grizzled lance]

There’s quite a few things that can give you frightened immunity

[crystal latch]

My first instinct would be Form of Dread, as an undeadlock main

[reef tundra]

Paladins with their auras sound like they’d be of great use in this fight

[jovial shadow]

Asmodeus has the powers of a lesser god. Saying he can't compete with four 20th level PC's only tells me someone isn' t experienced, or had really bad DM's. Or both

[steel moth]

Immune to blinded =/= Having line of sight

[crystal latch]

Asmodeus has the powers listed in his statblock

[reef tundra]

Bonus to all saves, immunity to being frightened

[valid geyser]

so everyone but the warlock who isnt going hexblade dies

[burnt valley]

They can act as aura bots if they pick oath of the watchers

[crystal latch]

Ah yes, truly what I meant

here's how I would do it on my build
= this is the only solution

[steel moth]

I don't want to be mean but you are being intentionally obtuse

[grizzled lance]

I mean the strongest creature ever printed has to be has to be either the Sphinx from dragon magazine 297 or the great wyrm time dragon both being cr 100

[reef tundra]

I feel like we should just cool a little, I’m sure nobody is saying “this is the only way” here

[valid geyser]

thank you for letting me know

[pearl hedge]

also you forgot to include hero shooters

[grizzled lance]

The sphinx had a slam attack that did 24d10 + 140 damage

[valid geyser]

what ill say is that theres a difference between the statement "the average optimized party will win this" vs "a party built specifically to counter this will win". Because an optimized party is meant to win in a general scenario

[lyric viper]

Ouchies.

[reef tundra]

Oh dayum

[grizzled lance]

3.5e was something else man

[crystal latch]

When I say "an optimized party handles this", I am typically assuming more or less the same party comp every single time

[valid geyser]

ok yeah so we are on the same page here

[grizzled lance]

It is kinda crazy seeing how the cr max cr went all the way from 100 to 30

[pearl hedge]

"erm well you didn't pick the specifically right character that i like so im gonna throw" mentality

[valid geyser]

the main weird bit for the asmodeus block is the crappy initiative bonus

[reef tundra]

So, with a party of 4 what would you say is the ideal composition? I assume wizard and warlock would be in there

[crystal latch]

2 wizards + 2 warlocks, all armordipped

[reef tundra]

I myself would think paladin for the aura bonuses to everyone and the support

[grizzled lance]

Do you think a party could beat Tiamat aspect from Fizbans with Tiamat actual features from tyranny of dragons

[reef tundra]

Ohhhh I thought you meant level earlier, yeah, that makes sense

[crystal latch]

Yes

[grizzled lance]

How so?

[burnt valley]

He has a blog regarding the party composition https://formofdread.wordpress.com/2025/09/09/2wiz2lock-an-optimized-party/

[valid geyser]

with that party comp, unless they all took resillient wis, they autofail submission aura

[reef tundra]

Hold on, I think we should specify average party or optimised party?

[grizzled lance]

Optimized

[valid geyser]

unless if something like wish is used for like, bless? even then that means they need a nat 20 and a max roll on the bless 1d4.

[dark pewter]

If optimization is the topic, then perhaps we should move this convo over to #optimization, folks

[steel moth]

it is somewhere along the lines of 2 wizards+ 2 warlock

some are playing around 2 wizards + 1 warlock + 1 something else (druidlock/sorclock)

[grizzled lance]

Just to be clear I am taking the legendary resistance limit magic immunity and regeneration and putting them on the aspect

[hidden spindle]

How big was this Sphinx?

[grizzled lance]

Colossal+

[normal junco]

is there anything bigger than Colossal?

[grizzled lance]

It was just colossal+ after that

It’s 5e’s version of gargantuan

[steel moth]

the very simplified basis you'd want to cover is along the lines of 1wizard+1warlock (non negotiable), someone with one level of life cleric with goodberry, someone with a level in peace cleric, someone with PWT, all should be fullcasters

[grizzled lance]

I feel like any having limited magic immunity would be pretty hard to bypass

[normal junco]

what would a being just under 2 miles tall qualify as?

[jovial shadow]

still gargauntuan

[grizzled lance]

In 5e? Gargantuan

[crystal latch]

I'd say 2 warlocks because 1 EBARB is often not enough

[jovial shadow]

still 30 x 30 on a grid

[grizzled lance]

Not to mention the chromatic wrath you have to deal with after

[valid geyser]

i mean wouldnt asmodeus just be immune to eldritch blast?

[grizzled lance]

The damage yes

[valid geyser]

and if not, he's pushed 10 feet so what?

[normal junco]

i mean, i'd expect a 2 mile tall being would more or less qualify as the terrain at that point.

[lyric viper]

I remember one Drag-mag advert just showing a full ready to cook chicken on the board being like 'Struggling to get those gargantuan minis?'

[crystal latch]

EBARB will work on minions and generally carry for most of the campaign until you get to Asmodeus

[valid geyser]

immune to spells level 4 or lower

[grizzled lance]

I still wanna know how a party would beat the aspect with Tiamat actual features

Cause you can’t stop her regeneration

[crystal latch]

Don't you basically just mean fighting Tiamat?

[grizzled lance]

Yea

[crystal latch]

Because that's something you just do in the RoT module

[worn surge]

hii!

[grizzled lance]

The wrath of a god is not a small thing

[normal junco]

hey

[steel moth]

not fully immune, asmodeus is only immune to the damage and not the side effects

[valid geyser]

even still. theyre getting pushed 10 feet? who cares?

[crystal latch]

Asmodeus can be microwaved

[grizzled lance]

And then still she still has mythic actions

Hurt through Avernus is my favorite

[steel moth]

even though the context is eldritch blast here I am just correcting what you got wrong so

[reef tundra]

I absolutely love Zariel’s ability to just… ask you to combust. Then you do

[steel moth]

[grizzled lance]

Explode …💥

[worn surge]

i know this is a question that’s prob asked a LOT but where do i start..? ive never played d&d but i really wanna start and ive watched like a video on it but just idk where to start..

[crystal latch]

But yeah, block LOS or block movement + teleportation for Asmo
Unironically counter him with like... Private Sanctum + Forcecage?

[normal junco]

check out #learn-to-play and #find-a-game

[grizzled lance]

Couldn’t he just teleport out anyway?

[crystal latch]

That's what Private Sanctum is for

[valid geyser]

private sandctum takes 10 minutes to cast?

[steel moth]

I would throw a dark star on top of it maybe

[crystal latch]

Wish or Chronurgy 10

[valid geyser]

also, he can just cleansing flame the effect off

[grizzled lance]

Mmm

[normal junco]

you could potentially search for the 2014 essentials kit pdf that's still on the Wizards of the Coast site, and then the System Reference Document v5.1 pdf can fill in the rest of the missing info.

[crystal latch]

The spell isn't on him, it's on an area

[steel moth]

^

[grizzled lance]

What what private sim do?

[burnt valley]

I assume its Private Sanctum + Forcecage -> Microwave with Sickening Radiance or would that be with Faithful Hound

[valid geyser]

okay then he can antimagic field it

[grizzled lance]

Damn

[crystal latch]

In which case we counterspell

[valid geyser]

which he leg resists

[grizzled lance]

DAMN

[valid geyser]

that or he uses ruby absorption

[grizzled lance]

I forgot the new counter spell is bad

[steel moth]

that's why I suggested dark star

[crystal latch]

Ah, if assuming 2024 then a change of tactics is needed

[valid geyser]

ruby absorption would still work for 2014

[grizzled lance]

True

[steel moth]

dark star works like silence

[crystal latch]

Ruby absorption is solved by having multiple casters

[grizzled lance]

Honestly how would you even kill the normal Tiamat

[normal junco]

hmmm..... would a level 20 Old Spice Gentleman class character be able to solo Asmodeus?

[steel moth]

tiamat would just die to a forcecage i think

[crystal latch]

Yeah, you position the cage over the well or something

[grizzled lance]

She’s immune to force cage

[valid geyser]

Isn’t force cage 10 feet? Would that not fit her b

[crystal latch]

20 feet

[grizzled lance]

Spells of 6th level or lower have no effect on her

[crystal latch]

It's not affecting her, it's a wall

[grizzled lance]

Unless she wishes to be

[grizzled lance]

That’s doing an effect..?

[steel moth]

forgecage is level 7 lol

[umbral girder]

Asomodeus also can summon Archdevils with his lair action too. So he could just drop Tiamat and Zariel and whoever he feels like.

[grizzled lance]

I never even thought of that

[crystal latch]

Tiamat is not an archdevil, but this is why I mentioned needing good summon DPR

[grizzled lance]

She used to be an arch devil

[grizzled lance]

She could still teleport out

[crystal latch]

Tiamat does not have a teleport

[grizzled lance]

She doesn’t?

[crystal latch]

No, she's strictly a brute-type monster

She has uh... 3/day divine word

[steel moth]

does she even have a teleport

[grizzled lance]

She’s still too large to fit

[crystal latch]

Have you seen the location she comes out of in the module?

[grizzled lance]

Too fat

[crystal latch]

You can put the cage in a way that blocks her from exiting

[grizzled lance]

She’s shown as 60-70 feet which is way more then force cages 20 by 20

[steel moth]

wouldnt a gargantuan fit 20x20

[grizzled lance]

prison in the shape of a cage can be up to 20 ft on a side with 1/2 inch diameter bars spaced 1/2 inch apart." There's another version with the prison being a solid box but that's smaller than the cage at only 10ft on the side

Too fat

[normal junco]

but not like... Themberchaud fat

[grizzled lance]

Too big

[steel moth]

idk where does it say she's 60-70ft

trying to find it

[grizzled lance]

It was more of over estimate

Even so she’s not fitting inside of force cage

[crystal latch]

5e size categories are capped at gargantuan

[grizzled lance]

I miss colossal

[steel moth]

i'd disagree with you there since statblock wise she is sized for a 20x20ft square, so she'd be fitting in a forcecage

[valid geyser]

Gargantuan represents 20 by 20 or larger, it’s just if someone wants to make a creature bigger they can

[normal junco]

stuff force cage into one of Tiamat's mouths?

[grizzled lance]

A prison in the shape of a cage can be up to 20 feet on a side and is made from 1/2-inch diameter bars spaced 1/2 inch apart.

A prison in the shape of a box can be up to 10 feet on a side, creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any spells cast into or out from the area

[crystal latch]

Surrounding Tiamat with walls/cages is also a good move since you fight her as - presumably - a party

[grizzled lance]

When you cast the spell, any creature that is completely inside the cage's area is trapped. Creatures only partially within the area, or those too large to fit inside the area, are pushed away from the center of the area until they are completely outside the area.

[crystal latch]

2wiz2lock will have up to 6 forcecages on the battlefield

[grizzled lance]

She just gets pushed into the nearest square

[valid geyser]

How and why six?

[steel moth]

minecraft

[crystal latch]

2 wizards via 7th level slot
2 warlocks via 7th level arcanum
2 simulacra

[grizzled lance]

Cause how fat she is

[crystal latch]

Actually you could have the wizards use 8ths as well in 2014 because the module ends at level 15

[grizzled lance]

Still wouldn’t work before she would just blast them away with her breathe wewpon

[crystal latch]

She cannot

[grizzled lance]

Why

[crystal latch]

Her breath weapon has no effect on forcecages

[grizzled lance]

I don’t understand

[normal junco]

does the breath go through?

[steel moth]

just win init

[crystal latch]

Breath weapons only affect creatures

[hexed slate]

You forgot that breath weapons go through force cages.

[valid geyser]

If it’s the non solid version it would

What’s Tiamat initiative bonus even?

[crystal latch]

My goal isn't to block her breath, it's to block her movement to set up a microwave

[steel moth]

+0

[hexed slate]

Oh ok, that makes more sense

[grizzled lance]

Tiamat can just fly up and then breathe attack down..??

[valid geyser]

Oh right, wotc didn’t realize they would give strong monsters high initiative yet

[grizzled lance]

Are we forgetting that’s a dragon???

[hexed slate]

Force cage is a box?

[normal junco]

if its six sides, there's north, south, east, west, plus below and above.

[crystal latch]

You need six forcecages to lock her in, basically two intersecting + shapes

[grizzled lance]

Does it block breathe wepaons?

[steel moth]

lowkey I am also surprised tiamat only has +0 to init

[burnt valley]

LUL

[hot marlin]

Yeah but with legendary actions, she'll still act just after the first person to act

[burnt valley]

again, its not the point

[grizzled lance]

She can regenerate 30 hp a turn with no way to stop it

[hexed slate]

I think the idea is you trap her by making a force cube and then stay out of range

[hot marlin]

So really with legendary monsters the initiative matters a lot less

[valid geyser]

That is true. It takes one attack that can drop concentration for the plan to fail

[grizzled lance]

16d10 from the blue head btw

[crystal latch]

Imagine that you're placing a Minecraft block
Then you place one block on each face of that block
But the middle block doesn't exist

That's more or less what we're building with forcecages here

[hexed slate]

Ironically not actually that scary since it is only a line.

[hot marlin]

Isn't Tiamat much too large to be in a forcecage anyways?

[grizzled lance]

He’s trying to “microwave” her

[hot marlin]

Oh, using multiple forcecages. But how would you set up multiple forcecages?

[normal junco]

stacking foce cages like lego around Tiamat

[crystal latch]

Multiple casters

[grizzled lance]

Scroll up

[valid geyser]

Simulacra of course

[steel moth]

I was going to suggest chill touch but I realised her magic immunity isnt like the fraud asmodeus

[hexed slate]

Taking advantage of her low initiative and having 6 Spellcasters.

[hot marlin]

No, I mean, you can only cast one forcecage a turn. Even if everyone on the team casts forcecage, she'd just use her legendary action

[grizzled lance]

She’s completely immune unlike others

[crystal latch]

Her LAs don't include movement so she can't really counter the tactic

[hexed slate]

Which one?

[hot marlin]

Oh wait, Tiamat, not the aspect of Tiamat. True, her legendary actions are only bite and breaths

[valid geyser]

just with a legendary action for the blue dragon breath. It would do enough damage to guaranteed drop concentration if they can’t make the save

[hexed slate]

Yh, after checking things over seems like it works

[hot marlin]

So that means that idea actually works. Damn.

[grizzled lance]

I actually said the aspect with Tiamat features

[hexed slate]

Absorb Elements

But force cage also just isn't concentration. That was changed in 5.5e.

[valid geyser]

It works if they’re lucky

[hot marlin]

Uh. I was certain the Aspect of Tiamat had a legendary movement option

[valid geyser]

Ah I’m thinking the much more reasonable but still stupid 2024 forcecage

[grizzled lance]

It doesn’t

[hot marlin]

OK yeah, that plan really appears to work. Good job

[grizzled lance]

I still don’t know where the damage part is coming in

When she can just keep using breathe weapons over and over at the end of each turn

[crystal latch]

But she can't move

[grizzled lance]

She doesn’t need to

[marble lion]

For how long

[hot marlin]

Forcecage lasts an hour

[normal junco]

the real trick is to have leverage over the DM.

[burnt valley]

How would you do it with 2024 forcecage?

[hot marlin]

Although if Tiamat rolls a 20 on initiative and a single one of the spellcasters rolls low, that doesn't work.

[steel moth]

the breath can be avoided if you just get in range to cast the spell, then move and end your turn outside of the breath range

[hot marlin]

So it's really dependent on dice luck

[hexed slate]

Probably just upcast a sickening radiance and have her die to exhaustion.

[grizzled lance]

You would need to be within 100 feet and force cages IS concentration

[marble lion]

So you have 6 casters all holding concentration on a cage?

[steel moth]

forcecage is not conc

[vale sage]

Hey y'all question,what's your opinion on a ww1 inspired DND campaign/ setting? With the mortal races vs the dragons and their orcs?

[hexed slate]

It isn't in 5e. That was changed with 5.5

[grizzled lance]

She’s immune to that spell

[vale sage]

I wna make something akin to lord of the rings mixed with ww1 elements

[burnt valley]

you know they can just upcast it right

[hexed slate]

which is why you upcast it.

[steel moth]

upcast

[crystal latch]

Caster init modifiers be like
+2 Dex
+d8 Gift of Alacrity
+5 Alert
+d4 peace cleric
+d4s from guidance
Advantage most likely, either weapon of warning or twilight 1 or some other dirt cheap item at this level

[hot marlin]

Just so we're clear: Are we using 2024 or 2014 rules? Tiamat or the Aspect of Tiamat stat block?

[grizzled lance]

2014

[steel moth]

2014 Tiamat

[hexed slate]

5e, Tiamat from Rise of Tiamat / Tyranny of Dragons.

[valid geyser]

I thought we were assuming 2wiz 2 lock

[grizzled lance]

She does have +10 to con

[normal junco]

Eberron's setting was inspired by that period of time between WW1 and WW2, closer to WW2. you could use that setting's stuff as inspiration.

[hot marlin]

What kind of party are we assuming?

[marble lion]

How do 4 ppl cast 6 cages

[crystal latch]

Yes

[hot marlin]

Are we assuming Tiamat to be alone?

[hexed slate]

Simulacrum, was answered above

[burnt valley]

simulacrum

[umbral girder]

Isn't the first half just Eberron?

[grizzled lance]

So still unlikely

[marble lion]

Then its all up to concentration and not getting blown up turn 1 if shes faster i guess

[grizzled lance]

Legendary action breathe weapon

[marble lion]

I know

[grizzled lance]

So again I doubt that sickening radiance would work

[hexed slate]

Save dc18, and she has to succeed on at least 90 of the saves.

[crystal latch]

Not even that, sickrad wording is funny

[grizzled lance]

She can just blast you with 1 of her 5 legendary actions + legendary resistance

[valid geyser]

I do also think that Tiamat could kill the simulacra with 1, at most 2 breaths if they can’t get out of that range

[reef tundra]

I love that abbreviation

[grizzled lance]

And radiance is a con save

[crystal latch]

When a creature moves into the spell's area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, and it suffers one level of exhaustion and emits a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius. This light makes it impossible for the creature to benefit from being invisible. The light and any levels of exhaustion caused by this spell go away when the spell ends.

Save vs damage, exhaustion just happens

Six rounds and she's dead regardless of rolls

[steel moth]

getting out of range is easy when Phantom Steed is a ritual spell

[hexed slate]

She's trapped. She can't hit you with her breath weapons.

That's like the point behind trapping her

[grizzled lance]

Force cage doesn’t block breathe weapons actually

No the point was to stop her movement

[valid geyser]

The steed will die too if they’re in range when a legendary action happens

[hexed slate]

Does she have an ability which extends her breath weapons range or lets it go through full cover?

[valid geyser]

Also it’s a third level ritual a wizard wouldn’t be able to cast?

[grizzled lance]

It’s 120 feet..

[crystal latch]

It's a 3rd-level wizard ritual spell

[hot marlin]

Wait so now the party has full cover?

[grizzled lance]

That means it’s a suck or save

[hexed slate]

And?

[valid geyser]

Ah I thought it was pally exclusive

[steel moth]

phant steed is 100ft movement, unless you intentionally throw the fight you wont end within range lol

[crystal latch]

It's a suck-or-suck with an extra bit of damage on a failed save

[grizzled lance]

Apparently force cage is “full cover@

[hexed slate]

Not needed, but if there is like a wall somewhere

[grizzled lance]

We’re does it say “they take half damage”

[crystal latch]

...

[valid geyser]

Depends how far away they are when initiative starts. Not really a thing fully in their control

[umbral girder]

Also Tiamat's speed is like 120ft

[grizzled lance]

If they pass nothing happens

[burnt valley]

My guy read

[hot marlin]

What's the terrain? How does the combat start? How are each fighters positioned?

[grizzled lance]

Hell

[fickle heart]

This is a pre-errata Sickening Radiance, FYI. Post-errata says:

When a creature moves into the spell's area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, that creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 4d10 radiant damage, suffer one level of exhaustion, and emit a dim, greenish light in a 5-foot radius.

[hexed slate]

They are using 6 force cages to box her in.

[grizzled lance]

So if it passes nothing happens right..?

[hot marlin]

That's not an answer. Are we on a mountain range, a city, a plain, a hill, an ocean, a lake?

[crystal latch]

Ok, so we need to spend more rounds default killing her

[grizzled lance]

Lake of lava

[crystal latch]

We still have a hundred rounds per casting of sickrad

[valid geyser]

I’d assume this was in Tiamats home. So an enclosed, limited space area possibly with like some pillars that provide cover

[normal junco]

is nobody suggesting the possibility of having an 8 person party?

[hexed slate]

So she has to make 91/100 successful dc18 connsaves or dies.

[steel moth]

scout

basic vision is 2 miles
also steed can dash

[fickle heart]

Possibly. Just commenting that it's pre-errata.

[grizzled lance]

With advantage

With a +10

All while you have to avoid getting burned to a crisp

[valid geyser]

Seeing the creature does not determine when initiative starts

[umbral girder]

Also Tiamat (Assuming Aspect) has a phase 2 that lets her spam her version of "Hurl through Hell" every round.

[burnt valley]

no, its the one from Rise of Tiamat

[grizzled lance]

Is force cage full cover or what

[hexed slate]

I think their strat is to either hide behind a wall or just get out of her range

[umbral girder]

Also Chromatic flair to

[grizzled lance]

Unless you have some crazy movement speed I doubt it

[crystal latch]

(21-18+10)/20 = 65% success chance
With advantage, 87.75%
Therefore Tiamat will on average fail 13.25 saves per casting of sickening radiance

[hot marlin]

Tiamat would succeed at 84% of the rolls, statistically

[grizzled lance]

How are you up casting sickening radiance above level 6 so many times

[crystal latch]

Five legendary resistances, she still takes 2.25 more levels of exhaustion than it takes to kill her

[hot marlin]

Uh. I had 84%. Are we assuming DC 18?

[burnt valley]

phantom steed 100ft movement speed

[crystal latch]

This is one casting

[hexed slate]

Something they do have, or just cast wall of force or rope trick for easy full cover.

[faint thicket]

It's a 10 minute spell

[umbral girder]

Ah the one with multiple Divine Words and Magic Immunity. Got it.

[hexed slate]

It lasts 100 rounds.

[grizzled lance]

I still can’t see it happening when she can just fly up

[normal junco]

there's force cages above her too

[hot marlin]

Isn't the point that you use forcecages to keep her immobile?

[crystal latch]

That's why we put the forcecages in a box shape

[hexed slate]

You make a cube around her. That's why 6 are needed.

[umbral girder]

Dragon's flying? What hereasy is this? /jk

[faint thicket]

Cage, box is only 10ft

[steel moth]

imagine minecraft, we are placing blocks (forgecages) around her

[grizzled lance]

So you use 6 force force cages around her which and then try to her breathe weapons

[crystal latch]

Box shape, we are building Minecraft structures out of forcecages

[fickle heart]

I will say, the largest issue is likely the fact that every cast of Forcecage would push her out, so you'd need significantly more casters.

[grizzled lance]

I’m still wondering why you can’t just breathe weapons the guy who casted sickening rad

[normal junco]

treat each force cage as it's own lego block. surround Tiamat on four sides, to the North, South, East, West. now block off the top with another force cage.

[hexed slate]

I think they are trying to:

a) set up cages

b) get out of range or behind cover

c) cast some spell that will kill her

[faint thicket]

I mean I feel like a cage, los blocking and then leaving is more efficient

[umbral girder]

Notably she can use breathe attacks as a legendary action

[grizzled lance]

This is what I mean

[umbral girder]

So she can do it on other people's turns.

[steel moth]

with phantom steed you would end your movement out of range

[hot marlin]

Considering that forcecage has a range of 100 feet and the breath weapon has only a range of 90 feet, it seems doable actually

[tawdry sentinel]

I feel this is basically just

Start turn out of range.
Ride phantom steed in.
Drop a section of wall, phantom steed out.
Nobody in range for breath.
Repeat.

[grizzled lance]

It’s 120

[burnt valley]

Exactly

[crystal latch]

The entire strategy, repeated

Step 1. Surround her with cages so she can't move.
Step 2. Drop a Sickening Radiance in with her so she is basically guaranteed to die
Step 3. Stay away and out of her range while the fight ends itself

[steel moth]

this

[grizzled lance]

A few of them at least

[hot marlin]

Oh my bad. I don't know where I got the 90 feet

[umbral girder]

120ft

[grizzled lance]

A few are 90 other are 120

[hexed slate]

2? That doesn't sound very hard to survive.

[umbral girder]

She is immune to sickening radiance.

[normal junco]

i think this honestly needs to be attempted in a VTT or at least in game.

[hexed slate]

You upcast it.

[grizzled lance]

There up casting it

[arctic jackal]

Yo chat

[normal junco]

hey

[steel moth]

it has been stated multiple times the sickrad is upcasted

[marble lion]

Its guaranteed to work tbh, as long as concentration isnt needed and you start within range to get into 100ft for the cage while being far enough to run after

[grizzled lance]

Is she fails 6 then she dies

[umbral girder]

Also she can just break the concentration of sickening radiance. Divine word and breath attacks.

[faint thicket]

Honestly cage plus sickening kills all but like... Five monsters

[hexed slate]

Yh, I no longer see any good reasons that this fails.

To be fair, after spending 6 7th level spells and like 2 8th level spells, that's a ton of resources.

[grizzled lance]

Some how moving out of range I guess

[hot marlin]

I mean, yeah it works. But if the question is: "Can six level 20 characters kill Tiamat if they have limitless money for spell components, limitless prep time, and ambush her alone", we don't need that tactic to know the answer is yes.

[marble lion]

There is no need to test this
It just works or doesnt work depending on starting point

[valid geyser]

It really isn’t guaranteed. It depends on the arena and initiative.

[faint thicket]

Be out of range

[grizzled lance]

This too

[hexed slate]

+0 initiative go brrrr

[faint thicket]

I really can't think of a map layout where this doesn't work, at worse use rope trick

[steel moth]

ok I understand you just joined the convo but most of the things you are bringing up has been addressed, it's worth backreading a bit, because otherwise this convo is just going around in circles

[valid geyser]

Initiative bonus can’t guarantee anything

[faint thicket]

When you have a +11+1d4+1d8 it kinda does

[fickle heart]

It would be fun to see the actual full breakdown of this, though.

[grizzled lance]

This has to be the most ridiculous yet ingenious way of killing a god that actually works ever though of

[umbral girder]

Casting the spell puts you in range

[hot marlin]

There is literally nothing that can't be beaten by six level 20 characters with limitless money, limitless prep time and the assumption that they will be ambushing their target alone.

[valid geyser]

Which I don’t think we can assume

[grizzled lance]

Bat man type character

[crystal latch]

This is level 15 characters fighting a module encounter in module conditions

[tall forge]

Actually there’s exactly one creature that cant be beaten

[tawdry sentinel]

That's not how legendary actions work.

[burnt valley]

Wrong, Lvl 15 party btw

[valid geyser]

Oh wait? Level 15? Then they wouldn’t have simulacrum

[crystal latch]

Simulacrum is a 7th-level spell

[grizzled lance]

Yea

[valid geyser]

Right yeah

[steel moth]

as I said, please backread, that has also been addressed

ride in with phantom steed in range to cast the spell, ride out, end turn out of range

[hexed slate]

TLDR for new people:

Strategy being tried to kill Tiamat with party of 2 wizards 2 warlocks and 2 wizard Simulacrums at lv15:

1. Box her in with forcecages after rolling with high initiative bonuses, and tank the 2 breath weapons she can get off.

2. Move out of range, or behind cover, or make cover

3. Cast sickening radiance until she dies.

[grizzled lance]

It just cost a lot to make

[faint thicket]

This is pretty normal for optimized casters, I have seen people get 50s on initiative

[fickle heart]

Someone make a technical proposal document for this lul

[valid geyser]

I mean we know the casters used. At most they’re have gift of alacrity

[steel moth]

throw in some dhampir bites

[umbral girder]

Also Force cage is concentration. breath attack from her her heads can be DC40ish Con saves.

[valid geyser]

I think we’re assuming 14 forcecage

[grizzled lance]

That’s only in 2024

[hot marlin]

We are actually assuming 2014 rules

[burnt valley]

they're playing 2014 rules

[normal junco]

somebody just actually play this out and record a video, dice results and all. with miniatures. and awesome music. and silly voices.

[steel moth]

my god

[crystal latch]

2wiz2lock could be something like

• PeaceChron
• LifeNecro Mark of Hospitality
• TwiGenieDSS
• TwiUndeadDSS

[faint thicket]

Peace chron easily gets a 30 initiative

[atomic kayak]

Gargantuan is only a size minimum and I believe tiamat has mentioned dimensions outside of fitting inside forcecage

[crystal latch]

This has been addressed and solved

[grizzled lance]

I still don’t think a party could beat orcas and two demi liches

[hexed slate]

They use 6 to get around this.

[fickle heart]

Would be a lot easier to just have a document, tbh. Lay out all the assumptions, flaws, upsides, failure chance, and so on and so forth.

[atomic kayak]

6 what?

[steel moth]

orcas 🐟

[faint thicket]

Is this even stated in 5e though?

[hexed slate]

Force cages

[arctic jackal]

Lmao

[hot marlin]

But yeah, anyways, that works. Sure. It requires ambushing Tiamat alone, which... Good luck with that. It also requires having the spell components for the forcecage. It also requires the terrain to be in your favour.

[amber echo]

Guys druid dont gain a new hp bar when transform?

[atomic kayak]

Those are separate cages and does not change what I said lol

[grizzled lance]

Not in 2024 no

[burnt valley]

This would actually be pretty awesome, optimization at this high of a level is so fun

[hot marlin]

The idea proposed is that she would not be inside any forcecage, she would be surrounded by them.

[hexed slate]

Yes in 5e, no in 5.5e

[faint thicket]

You go first easily, 2024, and any terrain works, what doesn't?

[umbral girder]

Interesting Tiamat's body is 300ft+ long.

[valid geyser]

Also if we said we’re assuming module conditions then Tiamat would not be fighting alone nor would the party be at full capacity

[faint thicket]

Is this stated in 5e?

[grizzled lance]

Still somehow only 20 by 20

[burnt valley]

Addressed and solved

[faint thicket]

Genuinely don't remember rn

[crystal latch]

The previous encounters in the module are easily solvable with much cheaper resources

[valid geyser]

Gargantuan dan be larger than 20x20

[marble lion]

Now i actually think its busted

[hot marlin]

No, ambushing Tiamat alone is not addressed and solved, is it?

[grizzled lance]

I.. forgot about that

[umbral girder]

Grabbing my Book of Dragons from last year, Fizbans, and Tome of Foes.

[hexed slate]

Force cage is famously not a very fair spell

[marble lion]

The size thing may break it

[marble lion]

No im saying a tactic is busted. It doesnt work

[grizzled lance]

So could you use only 6 to trap Tiamat or would you need more?

[faint thicket]

I mean, people already figured out a way around

[crystal latch]

6 is sufficient

[marble lion]

How big is one cage?

[grizzled lance]

But she can be bigger then 20x20

[hot marlin]

Like, yeah sure, in a white room, this works well. But, you know. No plan survives contact with the enemy

[fickle heart]

On a side note, the lack of that is why I can't get behind so much optimization of this nature. It's so finicky and the actual expectations are so quickly lost in conversations that it's basically trying to explain a technical diagram to someone without having a technical diagram.

I say this as someone who makes technical diagrams for a living. But again, me saying my technical diagram is right means nothing to someone who needs to sign and approve it on their end for recordkeeping and governmental codes.

[grizzled lance]

20x10

[crystal latch]

You're making it so that she can't move in any direction without having to go through one, which she cannot

[valid geyser]

Well we assumed full power Tiamat so a lot of the npcs would be alive

[marble lion]

She can just squeeze out inbetween i think

[burnt valley]

They basically win initiative with all the bonuses

[normal junco]

space the force cages out just enough that Tiamat couldn't squeeze through. i was assuming there'd be gaps along the edges

[hot marlin]

What does initiative have to do with it?

[hexed slate]

Hot take but most scenarios actually make this easier for players.

I.e if she is on the floor, only 5 cages are needed.

[steel moth]

what? it would be 20x20 wouldnt it

[hot marlin]

Of course they are likely to beat her in initiative. But I'm talking about fighting her alone.

[marble lion]

There are gaps beetween cages. If those gaps are too big, she can leave

[faint thicket]

It's funny that the size argument is basically just a no limits fallacy because no other monster is affected by aoes with their described size

Only their game size

[steel moth]

the cage form is 20x20

the box form is 10x10

[grizzled lance]

A prison in the shape of a cage can be up to 20 feet on a side and is made from 1/2-inch diameter bars spaced 1/2 inch apart.

A prison in the shape of a box can be up to 10 feet on a side, creating a solid barrier that prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any spells cast into or out from the area.

When you cast the spell, any creature that is completely inside the cage's area is trapped. Creatures only partially within the area, or those too large to fit inside the area, are pushed away from the center of the area until they are completely outside the area.

[steel moth]

.

[hexed slate]

"Up to" but yes

[arctic jackal]

Math is hard

[grizzled lance]

She would just be at most pushed around

[crystal latch]

She would be locked

[faint thicket]

At this point just wall of force around her knee

[marble lion]

So if tiamat is about 40ft, there will be a gap of uhhh triangle math 10ft 10ft between the cage pieces

[stoic haven]

Hm?

[burnt valley]

Y'know what, that's fair

[stoic haven]

Explain this further please

[hot marlin]

Can she squeeze to pass between those gaps?

[umbral girder]

Oh thats fun, Book of dragons say an Adult Black dragon is 80ft wide. Now to find Tiamat

[grizzled lance]

Physical Dimensions: While the token is (20\times 20\text{\ ft}), her model (e.g., Wizkids) can span roughly (145\text{\ ft}) wide and (85\text{\ ft}) long, leading some to run her as (80\times 80\text{\ ft}) or larger.

Big dragon

[umbral girder]

Adult Red dragons with that 100ft by 150ft size. Wow

[marble lion]

Considering she is a dragon and not a block of cheese, i dont see why she couldnt

[hexed slate]

If you only have to trap physical dimensions, then just trap one of her legs or something.

[faint thicket]

No other monster uses their in lore size when it comes to targeting and aoe, so why are people mentioning it. Also I still haven't seen anyone say if 5e even tells us the size

[crystal latch]

Can't move up, there is a cage above her
Can't move down, there is a cage below her
Can't move left, there is a cage to her left
Can't move right, there is a cage to her right
Can't move back, there is a cage behind her
Can't move forward, there is a cage in front of her

She can attempt to shoot you with her breath weapon while standing still, but you're more than 120 feet away and she's in a sickening radiance

[burnt valley]

Sarrukh from 3.5e's Manipulate Form

[valid geyser]

There wouldn’t be a cage below her

[marble lion]

But there are big gaps between the walls

[tawdry sentinel]

You're trying to trap a 4x4 cube.

You literally just put a single square of 10x10 on each side.

There's no 15x15 gap so she cannot squeeze out.

It has holes in, so she can breath, but nobody is within range of anything at any point so it's all a bit whatever.

It's white room RAW.

Not omg this'd never happen in a game.

[grizzled lance]

She can DIG

[valid geyser]

Are we assuming Tiamat is in the air?

[umbral girder]

"Tiamat is 50% bigger than an adult red dragon" is so far the closest I am finding which is huuuuuggeee

[steel moth]

are you sure that holds up

5e adult red dragons are Huge size, and are only 15ft by 15ft

[crystal latch]

If Tiamat is not in the air we only need five cages

[marble lion]

But shes not a 4x4 cube. Shes tiamat

[crystal latch]

The air thing is the worst case scenario

[umbral girder]

it's mainly when streched out their winds and tail it seems.

[stoic haven]

I would suggest the homebrew chat and give more context on the basis of these abilities

[hot marlin]

The only thing I'm seeing that could make this scenario not work is the possibility that she might squeeze between those gaps. Otherwise it works. And once again: The fact that six high level characters with limitless resources, limitless prep time and able to ambush their foe alone can beat that foe is not a bug, that's just expected

[grizzled lance]

Can’t she dig?

[prime pewter]

Thanks I forgot about that

[umbral girder]

Also love the note from Bahamut "Who made Dragon turtles? Tiamat said she didnt and I know I didn't."

[tawdry sentinel]

She's gargantuan, she's a 4x4 cube or bigger.

All that changes is how many cubes you need.

[hot marlin]

But now, if we try to implement this scenario, we'll find once again that there are too many variables that may break it

[crystal latch]

No burrowing speed so no

[valid geyser]

My main question does depend on how destroying objects considered terrain would apply if Tiamat could destroy the floor below her

[grizzled lance]

Pretty sure any creature can dig without a dig speed

[faint thicket]

Raw she can only damage 10ft objects and it would take multiple turns to move 10ft

[marble lion]

If there are enough cubes, this strategy stops working

[umbral girder]

That is true, dragons have been known for turning stone caves into Magma

[steel moth]

that's still kinda unbelievable, like I'm mot buying their wingspan being 10x their size in the statblock

[marble lion]

Once shes around 45x45 ft or something, the gaps will be so big she can squeeze out

[fickle heart]

Plus, this entire situation is basically exactly why technical drawings exist lol. Words are being used to explain something that can't really be verified well by words, which really puts a damper on the ability of the person trying to prove something works, so I'm pretty much of the mind that, unless someone actually gives a visual representation of how this works, there might be a flaw in their plan.

[grizzled lance]

• Siege Monster: Tiamat deals double damage to objects and structures, meaning she can rapidly destroy underground obstacles, walls, or tunnels.

[thorn abyss]

Guys, would you say dungeons and dragons has any overt horror theming?

Just asking as I find its place in dead by daylight bizarre. all these horror icons and there’s just this full blown fantasy chapter.

I find it odd

[hot marlin]

Does the ground count as a structure?

[umbral girder]

Amusingly the art work in everything with a dragon supports their size being that big

[faint thicket]

In order to dig without speed, you have to break objects, and objects are 10ft by 10ft squares. Meaning to fit she has to destroy 4 of them to go 10ft

[umbral girder]

Like that adult red being bigger than a castle in Tyranny of Dragons

Or the Greatwyrm being bigger than an entire city

[grizzled lance]

That.. is the stupidest question ever

[steel moth]

I think this is a wotc consistency issue at this point

[marble lion]

Dragons big
Dragon god big
I highly doubt tiamat is small enough to fit between 20ft walls

[valid geyser]

With legendary actions and her three attacks she might be able to move 20 in an entire turn

[faint thicket]

DND is terrifying if you know the lore WotC forgot about

[faint thicket]

Can her breath damage objects?

[grizzled lance]

Can’t she just dig into the ground

[umbral girder]

I love the new Amethyst dragon design. Makes their shards like a Lion's mane

[steel moth]

close to none it feels like from the direction it's moving in

curse of strahd has some horror

[hot marlin]

Bit rude, not gonna lie. "Structures" have a definition in D&D, whether the ground counts as one is a legitimate question.

[normal junco]

by that 80 ft, the wingspan of a black dragon miniature if fully extended would be 16 inches tip to tip. that does sound about right.

[marble lion]

If she is, this works depending on battle location and setup
If shes bigger than 45ft it doesnt work

[grizzled lance]

Anything that deals damage can do damage to objects

[valid geyser]

I was not assuming but maybe

[thorn abyss]

That’s why it feels so bizarre. And it’s stranger things connection only carries so much

[grizzled lance]

Well in this case yes

[crystal latch]

No

[faint thicket]

No some aoes explicitly say creatures

[valid geyser]

I figured that the breath weapons mentioned creatures specifically

[crystal latch]

Her breath weapon explicitly states creatures yeah

[grizzled lance]

She has claws and a tail

[faint thicket]

So yeah only her melee can dig

[thorn abyss]

Can you give the cliff notes?

[umbral girder]

Considering we got Warforged Colossus with a 20ft cube but also they count as an entire dungeon map I think it happens frequently.

[grizzled lance]

I still love the images of Tiamat being trapped to she starts digging

[burnt valley]

Anything regarding M*stra is horror

She-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named

[tall forge]

Imo dnd has horror iconography but isnt great at being horror media

[faint thicket]

The abyss is a cosmic cancer that will kill everyone and no one is doing anything to stop it, the blood war is a sham created by an ancient demon prince who has a web of lies spreading across the multiverse. Evil is everywhere and it's winning.

[valid geyser]

Yeah the gargantuan thing is just an optional thing for a DM to use if they want

[grizzled lance]

What about the lady of pain

[marble lion]

The digging discussion is inconsequential, just put a 6th cage as established

[steel moth]

mystra trying to not groom her chosens impossible

[grizzled lance]

You can’t put a force cage under her if she’s on the ground

[valid geyser]

Then they’d just need 5

[tall forge]

Hey, she chose volo and basically completely ignored him

[faint thicket]

Wait can't you use the 6th cage to knock her back if she starts digging

[crystal latch]

TRUE

[grizzled lance]

Probably

[faint thicket]

Its forced movement

[marble lion]

So yes 6th cage

[faint thicket]

The most expensive forced movement in the game but it is

[marble lion]

So the digging point can stop now

[grizzled lance]

But you’d need to put it under her in such a way

[tall forge]

Idk if that says more about volo than it does about mystra though….

[umbral girder]

Fun fact about Elminster, he is not a Chosen of Mystra anymore

[hot marlin]

So in conclusion:
This plan works in theory on the condition that Tiamat can't squeeze between the gaps of the forcecages.
In practice, the plan is unlikely to work because you are simply unlikely to ever fight full-powered Tiamat alone and in an advantageous terrain

[umbral girder]

New book says he stopped 10 years ago in world.

[faint thicket]

What terrain does this not work again?

[grizzled lance]

Did volo actually write volo’s guide to monsters

[umbral girder]

Well actually no, it says he stopped showing up at his tower 10 years ago and he is a Former chosen of Mystra

[faint thicket]

Because I can't think of anything

[tall forge]

Volos like, age immortal so probably

[marble lion]

Anything preventing the range management

[grizzled lance]

Volo is immortal?

[umbral girder]

A place where the steed can't run

[hot marlin]

Any that limits visibility, for example. Darkness. Any that provides Tiamat any form of full cover. Any that prevents PCs from moving out of range

[fickle heart]

Admittedly, the burden of proof is on the person(s) proving it works in every terrain.

[burnt valley]

Good decision, he should consider worshipping Shar instead of you-know-who

[faint thicket]

Rope trick

[umbral girder]

Like ravines or if its raining or a wall stops you from seeing the place you cast any of your spells

[steel moth]

out of all FR gods there's only one GOAT and it is Helm

[faint thicket]

Full cover just makes it easier and rope trick

[grizzled lance]

Rope trick is such a stupid spell

[crystal latch]

Forcecage does not require line of sight

[burnt valley]

TRUE

[faint thicket]

Thanks

[tall forge]

Volo is over 160 years old and a human

[steel moth]

I quite like Asgorath too but he doesnt do much

[grizzled lance]

..how?!

[valid geyser]

Also if we are using module conditions there are a lot more factors due to how it plays out

[hot marlin]

You misunderstand me. I mean the possibility that a full cover would prevent a caster from placing a forcecage or a sickening radiance where they want to.

[umbral girder]

Well he was frozen in an imprisonment spell for 120 ish years

[burnt valley]

Cyric and Helm are the true heroes that went out of their way to save Faerun from M*stra

[normal junco]

weird shenanigans. most of the strange things in FR lore are due to weird shenanigans

[tall forge]

Hes also a magic anchor of Mystra iirc

[burnt valley]

change their alignment to lawful good asap

[winter thorn]

I'm playing a character that grants wishes. But I monkey paw with the wish asked. What alignment am I?

[grizzled lance]

You’re telling me the guy who got caught by goblins is a.. chosen?

[faint thicket]

Out of universe, it's because the realms were forced to have a time skip of 100 years and volo was too important

[tall forge]

But Volo himself does not know he is an achor of the weave bc he couldnt be trusted to know it

[grizzled lance]

Omg

[fickle heart]

I still think it would be fun to actually see a full document written for this scenario that shows rates of failure and so on and so forth. That's the stuff I really find fun.

[tall forge]

In lore, only elminster and mystra know

[grizzled lance]

I still think it would be funny to play a volo’s guide to “monsters” but the ability’s are all mixxed up because he tends to lie in some of his books

[crystal latch]

Basically the only point of possible failure is massively screwing up initiative, and even there I'm not convinced that it's a loss rather than a slightly more HP-taxing checkmate

[naive cedar]

They picked him because he’s the least logical choice

[stark maple]

why are people talking about killing me

[tall forge]

He gets out by the insane luck of meeting the player character

Or dies ig

[faint thicket]

I agree with this tbh, the full cover one just at worse causes a slight delay

[grizzled lance]

I guess that’s true

[hot marlin]

Yeah picking Volo is the least logical choice. But doing it is stupid. Because picking the least logical choice is a stupid thing to do

[naive cedar]

I feel like hed find a way to get out anyways

[hot marlin]

Of course nobody will anticipate you choosing Volo of all people. But he could die from anything else

[burnt valley]

😭

[faint thicket]

To be fair, most people want to kill you (in game)

[steel moth]

Barges in
Kills Mystra
NTRs Tyr
Dies
Refuses to elaborate
Returns

Helm is the best forgotten realms god hands down

[naive cedar]

Hey, I’m not Ed Greenwood

[stark maple]

what did i do?!

[faint thicket]

The best part is that he didn't even intend on ntring him

[burnt valley]

Just gigachad things

[fickle heart]

I would say that environmental factors could be very impactful, hence why I'd be interested in seeing a gridded placement of every possible Forcecage and any configurations of terrain that could allow her to escape.

Again, though, that's a situation where "What allows her to escape?" should be reversed to "What ensures she can't escape?"

[stark maple]

my favorite god that isnt a god has to be the lady of pain

[grizzled lance]

Same I like how mysterious she is

[faint thicket]

Uhhh... Yes

[naive cedar]

Helm isn’t a gigachad. He’s a turbochad

[normal junco]

the book says Tiamat is mean and bad. sometimes words hurt. we have to remember that more often.

[tribal light]

So I've been researching medieval and renaissance era football since Sunday and I found out they used to wear armor in England while playing football... and then I realized us Americans never stopped wearing armor. So I'm wondering; what would you say a full set of American football protective equipment would count as in D&D terms; half-plate armor?

[stark maple]

ok JUST because i made all of evil dragon kind AND was an arch devil does not mean you can come into my home and kill me

[tall forge]

Its ok tiamat, i wouldnt kill you

[faint thicket]

TRUE

[burnt valley]

Truth nuke

[marble lion]

That assumes shes not bigger than 40x40ft or something like that
Otherwise its like trying to box in a cat with 6 toast slices

[stark maple]

good

[naive cedar]

I think it’s funny that the lady of pain, to my understanding, kills anyone who tries to worship her

[faint thicket]

Yeah half plate sounds right

[tall forge]

Ill instead demiplane of evil pain and suffering you

[stark maple]

she doesnt kill them only skins them alive ❤️

[crystal latch]

More like boxing it in with 6 levitating blocks of Minecraft bedrock

[naive cedar]

She is the lady of pain after all

[stark maple]

yeah

[steel moth]

same guy who included lore such as drow milk tasting like like mushrooms btw

[burnt valley]

I have a challenge, is there any character in Forgotten Realms that manages to beat Karsus in a contest of doing nothing wrong?

[marble lion]

NTRing someone is really not a good thing