dnd-discussion

[hot marlin]

In fact I'd argue Abomination Vault is the best Pathfinder one, due to the fact that it's one of the only campaigns that understand that it's a game first, a roleplaying game second.

But... It's pretty bare bones story-wise.

[buoyant oar]

And if you count the plane shift stuff there's like 10 of them. Considering they were done by a D&D designer. And have more content than the most recent official paid expansion that we got. I'd say it's fair to include them.

[rough basalt]

I imagine Kingmaker will probably be the next 5e converted one put on

[snow zephyr]

WoD is the only system that tends to put rp above the main game, but D&D has a split focus with heavy emphasis on combat and crunch

[hot marlin]

That seems borderline impossible with D&D's system. You would need to convert the entire kingdom management system to 5e

[rough basalt]

Paizo made it so idk how well it works but its there

[buoyant oar]

There is a 5e conversion that's already been made. Paizo did it.

Oh there was also

Monstrous Compendium Vol. Four: Eldraine Creatures

That was another MTG supplement

[hot marlin]

Oh that I didn't know. I'll be sure to check it out

[rough basalt]

Actually iirc it is AV and Kingmaker that have conversions

Idk if theyve made more

But yeah they made a 5e conversion when they remade Kingmaker for pf2e

[snow zephyr]

They should release a 5e book of castles

[jaunty wyvern]

Eating some dnd collab nerd clusters rn thought you should know

[hot marlin]

Eh. Any system WOTC can come up with will probably be inferior to MCDM's Strongholds and Followers

But any system WOTC can come up with will probably be superior to MCDM's Kingdoms and Warfare so...

[snow zephyr]

The old school castles book had as much detail as you could feasibly want

[jade garden]

Why can’t we put pics here

[hot marlin]

For the sanity of the chat.

[jade garden]

I wanna show u guys sum o found whilst watching vox machine

[snow zephyr]

you could design a regional economy around different types of castles to account for siege warfare (both magical and non-magical)

[naive cedar]

because people will misuse that privilage

[jade garden]

O I see

[jade garden]

Damn

[hot marlin]

This is a giant family-friendly server that often gets ill-intentioned people. I don't think I need to explain how posting images could result in hell

[jade garden]

Yea valid

It was js a pic of pike being cross eyed anyway

[snow zephyr]

Even though it would be totally sick to post pictures of the tables for guard rotations and compensation amounts to give a better idea of what would be in the coffers for a party to find and take, it would become poison

[naive cedar]

most big servers dont allow people to images

[jade garden]

Also I think it wud be cool to send pics of character sheets

[snow zephyr]

Or they require specific things to be able to do so

[jade garden]

Yea I’ve noticed that

[hot marlin]

Anyways that does remind me of how much I hated Kingdoms & Warfare. Damn, what happened there?

[snow zephyr]

Usually a specific amount of interaction and time spent in the server or some combination of the two

[loud tendon]

you can share links to character sheets in #character-discussion - either the ones from D&D Beyond, or uploaded to a trusted image sharing space like imgr

[snow zephyr]

Idk, I was too busy reading D&D supplements from TSR and chowing down on them member berries

[jade garden]

I also made a dnd monster/horde of monsters recently, their called the orphans (corny ik) but basically they look like little children with no mouths and spirally eyes, that also have like six legs and massive fists, they are rlly flipping quick and have a hive mind and travel in packs

[tame estuary]

So I'm wondering what to do with to think of this player, they're kinda saying no to some of the scenes I put out?

it sort of started at the session 0 when we were playing uno and they just aren't really following the game and just was messing around. on session 1, they questioned the quest giver and had to be convinced by another player character to let it go. when given 2 locations to go to, they went to a different location seperate from where everyone else is. Presented with a choice to save people, they would help the attackers instead and so I kinda just skip the fighting scene (this is an outcome I prepeared for, it's fine). When an npc went up to talk to them they say they aren't interested to talk at all. And when I tried to give them reprecussions for their action they just say no and want to get out of it, even when it's basically a slap on the wrist

[hot marlin]

For those who don't know: The great and ever-resplendant Matthew Colville made a book called Strongholds & Followers that aimed to bring the experience of owning a fortress and ruling over the lands around it back to 5e, It was a great book. But incomplete. It promised "The rules for X will be in Kingdoms & Warfare." Years later, Kingdoms & Warfare finally comes out and not only is the previous statement a lie, but the rules in Kingdoms & Warfare are excessively abstracted and end up contradicting the rules of Strongholds & Followers so much that using both was impossible.

[jade garden]

They punch/ trample u to death after encircling and slowly get closer u much like what zebras do when they are trying to confuse a predator

[hot marlin]

And Kingdoms & Warfare was just... Okay, I thought it was atrocious.

But I'm in the minority there

[jade garden]

That doesn’t sound fun

[tame estuary]

I think what gets me is the not talking to the npc part, now I have to bs plot development

[jade garden]

Also playing my first proper game of dnd this Friday was meant to play last Friday but everyone did nothing bc they didn’t make their character sheets

[livid owl]

Hope you have a fun game!

[jade garden]

Damn can u not js yk kick them

[jade garden]

Thx!

[stuck shuttle]

Talk to them above the table about their behavior

[hot marlin]

A slap on the wrist might be too nice then. Perhaps a player like that will only course correct if the consequences are drastic.

[livid owl]

Yeah this is kinda red flag-ish, I would talk to them about it and tell them you don't feel comfortable with the way they're treating the game

[stuck shuttle]

Re-establish expectations and kick if they can’t respect that

[jade garden]

Anyone know any good dnd to shows btw bc I finished mighty nein and am watching vox machina but other than that?

(Mighty nein is peak)

[lean wigeon]

record of lodoss war is an anime based on someone's dnd campaign

[snow zephyr]

Removal from the group is a tool a DM must be prepared to use

[tame estuary]

look here, I might just be embellishing bad behaviours

it's the part I focus on, maybe their behavior is normal and I'm the problem for just looking at the bad stuff

[hot marlin]

Maybe. But the part I personally see that strikes me as odd on your end is the "slap on the wrist" comment.

[tame estuary]

I'm asking that even if it's just me, am I just allowed to kick out people I don't like?

[hot marlin]

For the world to be real, for the world to matter, consequences must be real

And yeah, you're absolutely allowed to.

[tame estuary]

it was a 3 days worth of jail-time, genuinely no reprecussions

[hot marlin]

What was the crime?

The actual accusation, I mean. In the legal terms used in-world

[stuck shuttle]

You can talk to your party if you want to see their feelings on the matter. You’re a player too and deserve to have fun

[tame estuary]

breaking and entering

everyone else is allowed to come in after combat started

[hot marlin]

Breaking and entering where?

[tame estuary]

but the cops, for a lack of a better word, wanted to take them in to investigate what caused the ruckus in the first place, you know for interrogation purposes

a crime scene some people are investigating in, I wanted to make a narrative barrier, it opens up if they rile up the town

I'm pretty sure that I wasn't actually mad that they actually went through the barrier I put up and I'm genuinely just acting out the characters on the scene as if it's their job, but I don't know if it comes across as that

[hot marlin]

OK so, I'd say yeah. Talk above table. And in the future, don't be afraid of more brutal consequences.

[naive cedar]

Slayers was also inspired by DND campaigns i believe but is a more humourous take on it

[snow zephyr]

Talk to the player, if they keep raising issues then remove them from the group

[flint vale]

public execution for repeat offenders

[tame estuary]

dang

[snow zephyr]

They used to do floggings with the offender's shoes back in the day /j

[hot marlin]

Yeah, jail is... A rather recent thing.

Normal punishments would be flogging, temporary enslavements, fines, seize of property, execution, other form of corporal punishments, exile, branding...

Public shaming.

[jovial shadow]

To be fair, we are only hearing your version so we can't really be true arbiters without the other side's opinion. From your version it just sounds like he/she isn't feeling your storytelling. The only thing I can suggest is maybe pulling him/her aside and ask questions, but be prepared for criticism. Ask him/her what were his/her expectations going into the game. What things would he/she do different etc.

[hot marlin]

Didn't you used to go by "lich king" some time ago or was that someone else?

[snow zephyr]

There were cells but that was usually because it's hard to coordinate executions when you've only got one headsman, and a D&D society is less likely to use capital punishment like that

[tame estuary]

I can imagine people who gets mad that dnd isn't actually medival fantasy

[naive cedar]

some settings are pseudo medieval fantasy imo

[scenic gyro]

Ask the player to kindly toss their character concept in the bin, and to make a character who wants to take part in the adventure.

[tame estuary]

some people's idea of medival fantasy is dying of dysentry at 10 and [redacted]

[red linden]

Hey so I'm using the Avrae bot and I'm wondering how I apply True Strike to a Rapier.

It's !cast "True Strike" -t [monster] Rapier

right?

[hot marlin]

I don't see why a D&D society would be less likely to use capital punishment I admit

[snow zephyr]

Branding is way easier

[naive cedar]

I think it would depend on the society and its philosophy

[distant jacinth]

good morning folks

[hot marlin]

How does that relate to the specificities of a D&D society?

[snow zephyr]

Among other punishments that are more humane than become easier to hand out with magic

[stiff rock]

Revival magic maybe? It's universally easier to revive someone than to break them out of a high security prison

[snow zephyr]

Though I admit to a morbid curiosity of how D&D would handle capital punishment

[marble lion]

And thats fine

[snow zephyr]

That's a horrifying proposition

[tame estuary]

uh no, I can't say what they are, so you know that that's not fine

[marble lion]

Yeah it is.

[hot marlin]

Wait, I don't get it. How does magic make other punishments easier?

[marble lion]

Adult and dark themes are fine if everyone at the table is game

[hot marlin]

Branding still consists of the same thing. You take a branding iron, you make it hot, you apply it to the skin. Death penalty is still the same, you make a noose.

[naive cedar]

I think Lily is referring to authors who use it as a really cheap and insensitive way of making a setting edgier

[marble lion]

Yeah but honestly even then

[naive cedar]

anyways any setting with revival spells is inherently not going to have a death penalty imo

[snow zephyr]

Magical branding, geas for labor punishment, using demi plane to set up an oubliette

[marble lion]

Its home games. You shouldnt be held to high standards

[tame estuary]

I'm talking about how having some ideas as your fantasy that you want to partake in, is a bit weird

[marble lion]

Eh

[hot marlin]

Same as the real world, and more methods than the real world. But they amount to the same thing.

[tame estuary]

I'm referring to extremes here, as the intial joke. like actual things I can't say, that's why I did the [redacted]

[marble lion]

Its about processing, expression and challenge/adversaries

[snow zephyr]

Death penalty is more likely to be a security measure for high security prisons, like a solitary confinement

[hot marlin]

Magical branding? With which spell?

[snow zephyr]

rune of warding

[hot marlin]

And demiplane? That's a very high level spell and, contrary to an oubliette, people can escape with dispel magic.

[reef copper]

Punishment is not just about handling criminals in an easy way. Its about bringing people to justice in a way that appeals to the people and to through fear stop other criminals from seeing the appeal of crime knowing they might loose a hand for it. Torture was popular because people knew about how terrible the pain was and also how it would permanently disable you and make life harder. Not to mention the hate from the public too.

I would say different races would handle things differently. Orcs probably would increase what was previously said to an 11. Halflings probably have a lot of more second chances since they are more of a people of content and peaceful living.

[hot marlin]

I feel like orcs would just kill offenders and be done with it.

Elves would just banish.

Everyone else might have different methods

[reef copper]

They like violence so i think they would have more attendance in a public brutal execution

[stiff rock]

Orcs being chaotic evil implies they'd enjoy enacting whatever punishment they have

[hidden spindle]

Brawl it out

[hot marlin]

Yeah but if their society is so violent, why would people bother coming to a public brutal execution? There's violence everywhere

[stiff rock]

Why would a violent society pass up on a free show of violence?

[potent vector]

I think this is the more correct line of thinking

[hot marlin]

Because there are free shows of violence everywhere every time.

[reef copper]

They might be beaten by their superior if they harm their subjects to much. A orc commander still want their underlings to be able to work. But you can cull the weak a bit sometimes for shure

[hot marlin]

And because why would you want to watch a show of violence when you could be out there committing violence?

[potent vector]

That's why it would prob be a mob tearing the guy apart themselves

[reef copper]

You can have both tbf

[stiff rock]

Violent creatures like violence at or away from home I suppose

[tame estuary]

this is wild, I kinda want to be in a really dark game now

[hot marlin]

But to be fair, ever since I was a kid I never understood why people watched football when they could just grab a ball and go play

[reef copper]

A battle thirsty orc would probably not want to miss the slow execution of a elf general. Its probably like listening to bubble wrap pop to them

[tame estuary]

it's a different appeal, it's like watching a streamer

[potent vector]

Oh that's easy. Because then you get to enjoy it without any of the work/consequences.

Same here

[stiff rock]

Plus it's reasonable to believe they'd have some form of order amongst themselves since they live in tribes

[potent vector]

No worry bout consequences here

[tame estuary]

maybe you watch it for the streamer, maybe you just don't have the time and resources but still want to in some capacity enjoy a game

[stiff rock]

I doubt they'd see a whole lot of violence at home, otherwise why live together?

[hot marlin]

Yeah, I feel no enjoyment watching streamers

Maybe I'm weird.

[hidden spindle]

Maybe. Maybe not

[tame estuary]

nah me too, I don't evern listen to these dnd podcasts, but different folks for different storks

[hot marlin]

I couldn't watch Critical Role. But I did watch Supergeekmike's commentary and analysis of critical role.

[reef copper]

One thing i find realy cool is that the world of dnd somehow manages to have so extremely many races and monsters without any of them becoming extinct. I mean shure people can migrate crystal spheres but generally i would assume the population is quite stable

[stiff rock]

I'm yet to find a d&d podcast I can actually stomach, most feel too formal and professional for me

[potent vector]

Ok, now that's a totally different thing, one I can see the merit of

[hot marlin]

Which had actual value. Because it was analysis and discussion of TTRPG. Instead of a bunch of strangers playing in ways that would infuriate me if it was at my own table.

Because damn is Critical Role infuriating

[stiff rock]

I think resurrection/healing spells are just too common for anything to ever go extinct

[reef copper]

The animated show is a really condensed version of the story. I could never get into the streams since the slower pace made me just want to play instead.

[reef copper]

Don’t forget that works even more for the winning side of a conflict

[tame estuary]

it made me want to go inside my screen and just slap him in the face

[potent vector]

Also, Abt this, there being multiple planes of existence makes it that much more plausible. Especially when so many have extremely favorable conditions for them there for a base population to funnel out across the multiverse

[hot marlin]

Resurrection? The thing that requires diamonds and a spellcaster capable of casting pretty high level spells?

[snow zephyr]

Socially accepted public displays are more likely to attract crowds, particularly with drow

[snow zephyr]

All of which a large state should have access to

[reef copper]

Also the fact that there are neutral groups that join to actively even out the alignments just so the world dont turn to much in one direction

[hot marlin]

I mean, yeah but that doesn't really help people not going extinct.

[humble cairn]

1. D&D is not a reality simulator, that includes things like ecosystems, 2) it's fantasy where people tell stories or heroism and adventure, extinction as an archaeological or ecological thing isn't super adventurous, unless you're talking about an imminent cataclysm that needs to be stopped! 3) There are absolutely extinct and dead ancient peoples in the lore.

[hidden spindle]

The soul can refuse

[potent vector]

Healing is prob the bigger one tho, but the fact that no race can ever go extinct via True Resurrection as long as SOMEONE remembers they exist, is another portion of it.

[stiff rock]

Fair point yeah, but also taking into consideration that every plane is almost infinite and interconnected, a new species could come from literally anywhere and go anywhere. There's too many people for extinction to ever be a considerable factor

[hot marlin]

Like... That really doesn't make resurrection common.

[potent vector]

But still means that the race can always be rebooted

[hot marlin]

Uh... Just in the Forgotten Realms, Avariel, Sarrukhs, Batrachi and Aeraee are all extinct.

[potent vector]

Theoretically they don't have to be.

[stiff rock]

The real reason is that it would be a little crappy of wotc to ban a race because they died in the lore. It's up to whatever DM to decide what's extinct and what isn't

[snow zephyr]

It used to have ecosystem guides, druid campaigns, if you're determined enough and have necromancy there can be undead ancient peoples

[stiff rock]

Was not aware of that lol my bad

[humble cairn]

"Extinction" isn't really how heroic fantasy would approach it anyway. "Ancient and forgotten peoples, lost long ago to the ages" is how it would go.

[hot marlin]

In Dark Sun, Pixies, Gnomes, Kobolds, Wemics, Trolls, Lizardmen, Ogres, Orcs and Goblins are all definitely extinct. Mermen, Sahuagin, Kuo-Toa, Locatha, Satyrs, Centaurs, Minotaurs, Bugbears, Gnolls, Hobgoblins and Troglodytes are all probably extinct

[humble cairn]

I'm talking about what is, rather than what once was.

[snow zephyr]

The moon elves are endangered

[snow zephyr]

There are still guides in the monster manual for the ecosystems of monsters iirc

[reef copper]

1. Druids, dryads and lots of other things have a huge focus on echo systems.
2. The prevention or extermination of a race can definitely be adventurous and heroic.
3. I just said its impressive that such a large amount of similarly powerful groups that hate each other co exist

[potent vector]

Just checked, Avariel aren't extinct

[stiff rock]

There's monsters per habitat in the 2024 MM if that's what you mean

[potent vector]

They got close after the First Flowering but didn't

[humble cairn]

1. "Nature" or "Lifeforce" not "ecosystems"
2. Like I said it's not about "extinction" it's about imminent cataclysm that heroes need to avert, the emphasis is different.
3. It's because that's how the writers need it.

[snow zephyr]

Yeah, you string together predators and prey for an ecosystem based on habitat

[reef copper]

I don’t agree i guess

[hot marlin]

Oh yeah, forgot that there's like a few secret surviving Avariel communities

[snow zephyr]

Extinction can absolutely be part of an adventure

Like escorting the last pair of a species to a druid grove where they can live out their days in peace

[reef copper]

Aw, thats so sad man :(

[potent vector]

Also . . . I think the Sarrukhs became Yuan-ti? Maybe I'm wrong, but this wiki laddering is confusing. . .

[hot marlin]

No. Depending on the canon, Sarrukhs either created the Yuan-Ti or the Yuan-Ti used to be humans who turned themselves into that as an imitation of the Sarrukhs.

And even if they "became Yuan-Ti", that doesn't make the Sarrukh not extinct. Homo Habilis is extinct, but their descendants are...Well, everyone here

[humble cairn]

"Remnants of a long lost peoples whose civilizations have passed before them and whose time has come to join their ancestors and leave the mortal plane" isn't the same emphasis as "extinction" I'm not saying that whole species dying out isn't a thing, I'm just saying that it's a fantastical thing, not a scientific thing.

[potent vector]

That would be a cool adventure.

[hot marlin]

So yeah. Extinction actually does happen in D&D. It's actually the backstory of Dark Sun. Just about half the sapient species were exterminated to the last

[snow zephyr]

But more to the point, you can 100% set up ecosystems using the 2024 rules

[humble cairn]

It's not what the game was built for. Sure you can do a lot of things.

[reef copper]

Speaking of preventing mass death. Any tips on how to feed 8-20k half orcs without a set up farm land

[snow zephyr]

Exploration is a key part of the game even if it's not all wilderness exploration and survival

[hot marlin]

Uh... How many of them are druids?

Or rangers?

[snow zephyr]

And predators make for good random encounters depending on environment

[hot marlin]

Or high level monks maybe?

[humble cairn]

None of which involves setting up whole ecosystems, you just need the vibe of one.

[hot marlin]

Because without magic, feeding 20k people without farmlands is simply impossible. They will overhunt, starve and die.

Unless you break them up in small groups and send them very far away from each other. But you would need those groups not to exceed 20 people.

[reef copper]

Well since they are captured by a cold hearted duegar society I would assume all the casters are already in control of their elite or executed.

[humble cairn]

The book itself says it's not a reality simulator. You can do whatever you want with it, but that's you adding all that in, which is cool if you want it, but the game itself is not really built for it.

[hot marlin]

Set up farmlands. No choice.

Or pillage.

[humble cairn]

Shove them all onto the Astral Plane where they will not age or die.

[hot marlin]

How the hell would you even get 20k people on the astral plane?

[humble cairn]

I dunno

[reef copper]

We are trying to be moral and save lives so pillaging is of the table. And the astral plane would be a good choice if we had better options than 2 portable hole gates

We do have like 200k gold to purchase cheap food ingredients

[humble cairn]

Uhh .. offer them to the Githyanki as .. tribute?

[reef copper]

Omg XD

[hot marlin]

And I think people still need to eat on the Astral Plane

[humble cairn]

Do they?

[naive cedar]

I thought they didn’t

[reef copper]

With circle casting you could open a gate a really long time i guess

[hot marlin]

Wait, no, DMG says they don't, nevermind

[humble cairn]

Plant Growth can make very fertile farmland.

[hot marlin]

Oh, that's a good idea actually. You need a diamond worth 5000 GP, a cleric, sorcerer, warlock or wizard of level 17 or above, and enough casters to keep it open for...

[reef copper]

I guess we will look into hiring druids

[hot marlin]

We're talking 20K people. You would need the gate opened for days.

[snow zephyr]

Just hire druids to cast goodberry

[reef copper]

Probably not that long but a long time for shure

[snow zephyr]

You only need like 3,334 druids

[knotty pasture]

Only

[humble cairn]

Ask among them to see if any of them had hidden the remnants of their cultures, perhaps there were some secret priests of Luthic practicing their religion in hiding. They might have magic users, after all.

Foster their own sense of culture and independence so you're not just managing a huge vassal state.

[reef copper]

Will do, they might have managed something like that.
I will read plant growth again since i think it can do aoe food growth

[hot marlin]

OK let's see... You can likely pass about 400 orcs every minute so...

Damn, alright, never mind. You need the gate opened for an hour.

[humble cairn]

But if you shove them all onto the Astral Plane .. then what?

Like what's the point of all this? You just freed an entire city full of people from duergar?

[reef copper]

One good thing is that they recently had their own city. So all of them already had a shared culture and probably good connections for setting up a working society without having to re learn people a trait

[hot marlin]

Well, you choose a precise location on the astral. You put the orcs in there, some floating nice place and hope it's far enough away from Githyanki slaving parties, astral drreadnought and other stuff...

And then I guess that back on the material plane you try to find some place where the orcs could live and enough food to get them started.

[humble cairn]

What about that city? Can you take it over and give it back to them?

[reef copper]

Since my character faced a dreadnought day 2 he was there he does not deem it safe. Even though its statistically empty

[reef copper]

100k orcs occupy it currently

[humble cairn]

And the people you freed are not welcome? It's racism, isn't it?

[reef copper]

But we have killed like 500+ orcs through short skirmishes with invisibility and teleportation. Not fast enough though

[hot marlin]

Maybe the orcs that occupy it are from another nation that conquered it

Wait, whose side is your party on?

[reef copper]

The orcs kinda came and killed most of them and the refugees where captured as future slave workers by the durgar

Well the orcs probably have some slaves too

[humble cairn]

Wow that's a lot.

[snow zephyr]

Read The Prince by Niccoló Machiavelli, it's excellent for D&D characters with high wisdom

[humble cairn]

Ok so you have the remnants of a city who are downtrodden and defeated. This is typically the time you would help them recuperate and then build them back up as an avenging army to take back their home.

Unless they would rather just relocate oh hey ... have you tried asking them what they want to do?

[reef copper]

Well the orcs kinda mostly destroyed that whole town while pillaging. And then destroyed it some more after they could not find the party after the first 2 raids we did on them

They have a demon supporting too

[snow zephyr]

A tanar'ri or a baatezu?

[reef copper]

A strong one that can lend out warlocks on a whim

[snow zephyr]

Baatezu

[reef copper]

I dont know yet but maybe

[hot marlin]

A demon.

A tanar'ri is a demon. A baatezu is a devil.

[snow zephyr]

Demons don't really deal in warlocks as much as devils from what I remember

[hot marlin]

"As much" being the key

[snow zephyr]

I know, but the demon MO tends to be "run them pockets"

[hot marlin]

This demon clearly is one that does deal in warlocks

[reef copper]

I wont look into its stats untill after it is taken care of to reduce subconscious metagaming

So i wont try finding out more than i would know in character

[hot marlin]

Anyyways, those orcs were duergar slaves, right?

[snow zephyr]

Some people don't know the difference because the lower planes often get glossed over

[hot marlin]

So... The duergars had the means to feed them. You could just steal it from them

[reef copper]

Yup. Hidden deep in a tunnel a kilometer down with some kind of magical air recycler

Well not down exactly but its a long walk

[hot marlin]

Twenty thousand orcs is basically an army. You could descend there, kill the duergars and take their stuff

[snow zephyr]

Twenty thousand orks with three spell scrolls each and some melee weapons and armor is probably enough to conquer the place again, especially if you can get that demon to flip to your side

[hot marlin]

Most of them probably can't use spell scrolls.

But all of them can use a club. All of them can carve a pointy stick.

[reef copper]

Idk man. We are 3 lvl 25 characters but its a world with a lot stronger enemies too. But my stealth is like 40 average so with my teleportation and circle casting we can probably empty it in a few hours

[hot marlin]

Level 25? Damn

[snow zephyr]

You know what, you're right. I cast Macedonian phalanx

[reef copper]

Heavily moded 5e 2014 with a focus on realism

If you manage a template (a stat increase from magicaly and or geneticaly modifications) you can reach lvl 42. But you basically need to be a half dragon of a prismatic dragon at that point

[hot marlin]

Then no circle casting. That removes the gate to the astral plan.

Yeah. Get those orcs pointy sticks, descend, kill all the duergars and take their stuff.

[wispy flare]

Thinking of getting dnd supplies for my bday tomorrow at b&N

[snow zephyr]

Long pointy sticks

[wispy flare]

Like the two handbooks

[reef copper]

Always need more dice 🎲

[snow zephyr]

Wait. Don't the deep dwarves have inherent magic

[wispy flare]

The races are confusing enough for me but idk lol

[reef copper]

Half orcs are a bit different in that they grow up faster and are also stronger in both genders. But its mostly women and children

But they can probably and likely want to fight

[snow zephyr]

#thedrowdeservedit

[wispy flare]

What’s a drow?

[hot marlin]

They do. They're a nightmare to fight but... You know, twenty thousand orcs

[wispy flare]

I need those handbooks lol

[reef copper]

https://youtu.be/DBoqrSn1GR8?si=JPju4l2WVvV8ctzB

[hot marlin]

Drows are dark elves.

[snow zephyr]

Coughing baby vs 20,000 orks

[wispy flare]

OoooH

[wispy flare]

Oh yah! That song is a bop

[hot marlin]

It's orcs. Female orcs are just as tough as the males, and probably just as trained to fight as the males

Might even be tougher

[snow zephyr]

They committed unspeakable atrocities that resulted in them getting sent under the vast subterranean expanse of Toril

[reef copper]

The dwarves are like 20k surface level city and we have no idea how many live in secret below ground. Plus the farmers might also fight

[wispy flare]

Is that from the new movie about smth?!

[empty thicket]

so if i have to seduce a lady orc, intimidation instead of persuasion?

[hot marlin]

No, their ancestors committed unspeakable atrocities. Those ancestors have all been dead for ten thousand years

[snow zephyr]

Nope, Grand History of the Realms, the book of elves, monster mythology, and one or two others

[reef copper]

I guess lol

[crimson gulch]

Athletics

[wispy flare]

Ah. Again ill need to know so much lore if I wanna dm smth that isn’t premade

[hot marlin]

Then pillage the farmlands. Don't mount a full frontal assault yet. Scout ahead, attack the farmlands, take the food, go back. Besiege it.

[crimson gulch]

Homemade is fine too

[snow zephyr]

Not really, just grab a setting book with maps and throw a dart

[empty thicket]

okey, time to see if it work in the next weekend when i go to the tavern
Maybe i finally found that lady orc that Harood need

[wispy flare]

Ok ok 👌

So much lore and I haven’t played in a campaign in two years

[reef copper]

Hmm, not a bad idea since I could personally try to burn the interior food supply. Only problem is that the surface dwarves are not the durgar and are generally good people that dont know what is going on

[snow zephyr]

The dales are always easy for the forgotten realms

[wispy flare]

Wow.

[reef copper]

Situation is complicated but i thank everyone that has given tips. My character is a lot smarter than me and has had a lot of time to think so i felt asking for feedback was a good idea

[hot marlin]

Then attack the duergars, not the surface dwarves.

[snow zephyr]

Cliffsnotes are just: the elves were there and fighting, the orks joined the fight and the humans fought alongside the elves

And then like 2,000 years passed

[reef copper]

Hmm, i guess the duergar might want to keep things hidden from the other dwarves so a fight in the caves could be a advantage

[wispy flare]

Let me guess. The drows erased a world and the gods decided to create a new world?

[hot marlin]

No. Not at all.

[wispy flare]

Worth a shot

[snow zephyr]

Nope, the drow wiped out a subspecies of elf

[hot marlin]

You really want the explanation for how the drow became the drow? Because it's... It's something.

The drow did not wipe out anyone.

[snow zephyr]

The moon elves would beg to differ

[hot marlin]

The moon elves still exist.

[wispy flare]

There’s too many elves!

[snow zephyr]

Well, the one or two that survived

[reef copper]

Drow just follow a god right that turned them into dark skinned psychopaths overtime

[snow zephyr]

The seldarine and the crown wars are related and it's hard to explain the crown wars without the context of the dark seldarine

[hot marlin]

Actually the context of the dark seldarine is pretty much unecessary

[reef copper]

They have the most subracess and related races for shure

[snow zephyr]

Corellion did nothing wrong

[scenic zinc]

Most incorrect thing I've read all day.

[marble lion]

He didnt

[hot marlin]

Corellon literally had nothing to do with that

He did nothing. Wrong or not.

[snow zephyr]

The seldarine wars are how we get lolth providing demon magic to the illithari that allowed them to raze the strongholds of the moon elves

Iirc literally using rings of demon fire to burn the cities to the ground

The elven pantheon let a council cast the drow into the underdark

[hot marlin]

Yeah, no, not what happened. This is a gross simplification and not the actual lore of the crown wars

[snow zephyr]

The sun elves attacked the illithari under the pretense of expansion and the moon elves didn't stop them

[hot marlin]

Nope, not what happened.

Alright so, this is called the crown wars, taking place in -14000.
It starts with clan Vyshaan, ruling clan of the sun elves of the Aryvandaar kingdom. They want to annex the kingdom of Miyeritar, a kingdom of dark and wood elves led by clan Olrythii. They invent a family link to justify their claim on Miyeritar, and attack and occupy the kingdom of Miyeritar.
The dark elf country of Illythiir (this is the one worth remembering) attacks the moon elf kingdom of Orishaar which is an ally of Aryvandaar. The Illythiiri are allies of Miyeritar and seek to support them against the Aryvandaar occupation. But the conflict escalates and the Illythiir kingdom commits a few war crimes. This earns them the epiphet "dhaerow" meaning traitor. Lolth starts corrupting them well after that.
Aryvandaar also is influenced by fiendish powers, namely the fallen solar Malkizid. They invade more elvish kingdoms.
The conflict escalates so much that a wasteland is created by the destructive magic of Aryvandaar. The Illythiiri are enraged and attack Aryvandaar even more brutally. The Illythiiri turn away from the seldarine, worship other gods. At that point, a ritual of elven high magic is cast. It was supposed to curse all Illythiiri, but it accidentally cursed all dark elves, who were then driven underground and the epiphet "dhaerow" eventually becomes shortened to "drow".

[uncut parrot]

I wanted to ask did anyone ever try homebrewing an lotm based game and how did it go? I doubt l ever saw one recruiting players so l wanted to ask

[hot marlin]

The sun elves of Aryvandaar were the primary agressors, but they never attacked Illythiir.

[snow zephyr]

I feel like you missed a crown war somewhere

[hot marlin]

Illythiir attacked them. In support of the kingdoms Aryvandaar was attacking

[snow zephyr]

5 total

[hot marlin]

Yeah, I ended at the fourth crown war with the descent of the drows. There are two more crown wars.

Well, the last one isn't really a crown war, but it's sometimes counted as one

[reef copper]

Do you have like a really good memory or just really into the lore or both?

Idk feels like you know basically any lore related information i have seen asked since i joined this server

[snow zephyr]

It was around crown war 3 when they go full infernalist

[hot marlin]

I just recently re-read the lore, just to remember it

[snow zephyr]

It's been a while since I've read elf lore

The seldarine wars and the fall of lolth add a lot of context to why lolthian drow are so terrible

[reef copper]

I kinda got to overwealmed with lore since it goes from the 70s and since then have been rewritten and somehow 5e plays on nothing in particular being canon

[hot marlin]

So yeah the crown wars are mostly about Aryvandaar's territorial aggression towards the neighbours, use of destructive magic and empire-building. And then Illythiir answered with war crimes and their own destructive magic.

[reef copper]

Like is 1-2e more canon?

[snow zephyr]

It's canonicity by setting

[reef copper]

Ok

[snow zephyr]

*destructive demon magic

[hot marlin]

Actually Aryvandaar did not use demon magic. Their own fiendish influence came from the fallen solar Malkizid who, at that time, was an archdevil.

[snow zephyr]

No, the illithari used demon magic from lolth

[hot marlin]

Yes.

[snow zephyr]

Because the only thing more reliable than elven hubris is that mages take literally no work to flip them to the dark side

[hot marlin]

Although the most devastating magical destruction of the conflict was the dark disaster, whose responsibility lies solely on the shoulders of Aryvandaar.

[snow zephyr]

Was it not the drow that used the fire rings? The Taco Bell tango, so to speak

[hot marlin]

That I do not remember. But the worst disaster was the "dark disaster" which turned Miyeritar into the High Moor.

[snow zephyr]

Hey, how did the duregar happen?

[hot marlin]

That one is much simpler.

[fossil hollow]

oh hey

duregar? are they related to duergar?

[hot marlin]

Back then it was Clan Duergar. It still is, technically. A large and powerful dwarven clan. The short version is that they were captured by Illithids and enslaved.

[snow zephyr]

Good ol mind flayers

[reef copper]

Lots of fantasy relate to each other somewhat but idk how similar they are beside living underground. Being exelent crafters and miners

[humble cairn]

My Waterdeep Bard, though he tried to be open minded to all people, really didn't like the Duergar that he met.

[fossil hollow]

so same thing, different spelling

[humble cairn]

I think we met a king of theirs, psionic tyrant.

[reef copper]

You mean Skyrim right?

[fossil hollow]

what?

[hot marlin]

Much later, they rose up against their captors, with help from one of the least reputable gods of the Morndinsamman. That god became their liberator, and managed to make a pact with Asmodeus to free clan Duergar. Later, a heroine named Duerra ascended to divine status too.

[reef copper]

Are they not in elderscrolls

Thought that was what you where referring to

[fossil hollow]

I have no idea about Elder Scrolls, i do not play it

[reef copper]

Oh my b then

[fossil hollow]

i have not played any Bethesda game

wait, no thats incorrect, i played DOOM

[reef copper]

They tend to be very bad in quality

[snow zephyr]

TES has falmer, D&D has drow. They're legally distinct

[hot marlin]

So clan Duergar tends to live deeper underground. The time spent around illithids has given them some psionic abilities. Deep Duerra is the goddess that helped them master those abilities. Laduguer is their main subject of worship. And Asmodeus plays an important part in their religion as more of a... Semi-enemy figure

[small plume]

Draugr are a reskinned zombie, relating to real-world nordic culture. Skyrim uses them as a dungeon enemy.

Duergar are underdark versions of dwarves

[fossil hollow]

I... didnt say Draugr though. I know what they are though

[humble cairn]

I also prefer a pronunciation closer to "DVER-gar" than "DOO-er-gar."

[snow zephyr]

I prefer the pronunciation "crispy"

[small plume]

Think it might very been a spelling mixup/misunderstanding

[hot marlin]

So yeah, while duergars are treated as a subspecies, in-universe they would be considered a specific clan.

[willow geode]

Does DND have a proper explanation for why each Spellcaster needs their respected spellcasting stat? Int for wizards makes sense as they're studying and using complex methods to cast their spells, but I'd appreciate it if anyone could give me some more insight on this to help with my character creations.

[humble cairn]

No, the ability scores are meta and not realistic.

[hot marlin]

Charisma casting consists of using force of will, strength of personality. Wisdom casting consists of using awareness and connection to a greater thing.

[fossil hollow]

still kinda miffed they didnt do INT warlocks

[snow zephyr]

Some magic requires knowledge of the tree and land, hence wisdom. Some requires you to force your will on reality, hence charisma. And they wanted priests to be different and that eventually led to both wisdom and charisma casting

[small plume]

Honestly I feel like Wisdom warlocks make more sense but yeah, charisma feels like an odd one

[humble cairn]

All the explanations you get, while cool and sensible, are basically fan theories and are not given in context of in game lore.

[fossil hollow]

eh? Arent they provided by their class description and spellcasting feature?

[snow zephyr]

It's 100% so that you had to work harder for multi class synergy for stats

[humble cairn]

Not really?

[willow geode]

Charisma I guess could help the character be more favourable to their patron

[lean wigeon]

Charisma is a bit of a misnomer in D&D imo because it isn't really just comeliness or personality, but also describes force of will and ego, which fits Paladins and Sorcerers with the former being about keeping to the tenets of their oath and enforcing it on the world, and the latter's power being something very innate to themselves unlike other casters

[fossil hollow]

ik in 2014 it was a bit more obvious

[snow zephyr]

Wisdom doesn't fit warlocks because otherwise you'd have been streetwise enough to not get ripped off

[lean wigeon]

Warlock I think doesn't really fit charisma though. It was originally supposed to be an intelligence caster actually. Only reason why it's even a charisma caster is because it was a charisma class in older editions.

[fossil hollow]

IG they dont actually delve into why class uses X stat, its just assumed...

[snow zephyr]

Usually by stereotype

[humble cairn]

Looking at them, they go a lot into the source of the magic, but not really at all into why that relates to a specific ability score.

[fossil hollow]

yeah, thats what im noticing as well... its really just assumed...

[empty thicket]

i kinda do and more into some stuff of every class
In this scenario Warlock need the charisma for the patron.

and make a STR caster would be so bad idea

[willow geode]

Yeah, if they were willing to make the game a bit more complicated Charisma and Will(or something of the sort) would have been different stats. I like the idea of Charisma including both strength of character and likeability because they usually come hand in hand but obviously it's not always the case for characters.

[fossil hollow]

Im talking about what the books say

[woven flint]

I think it makes sense, you know, making a deal with an Otherworldly being to get magical powers sounds like bargaining, and you know.. that's definitely a Charisma thing

[humble cairn]

Ability scores are meta and also don't map very well onto "realistic" ways to measure capability in people. Everyone is just better off accepting them as game-ified things rather than trying to make realistic sense of them.

[marble lion]

It makes sense to me

Its not willpower
Its the sheer intensity of your being

[empty thicket]

Yep or is how i feel fit better, i can be wrong tho

[willow geode]

Hear me out, Constitution for warlocks. Their body's ability to hold their patron's power would be influenced.

[marble lion]

Thats why it doesnt defend against being scared or charmed etc

[fossil hollow]

The PHB lists the sources of magic a spellcaster might get it from, but not why they use the stat they use. Its just assumed

[empty thicket]

Wizard and Arti are both nerds, one being a bookworm and another beign an engineer

[fossil hollow]

Sorcerors should be the CON caster...

[robust dragon]

I agree.

[woven flint]

No lol

[marble lion]

No its charisma because its about how much power can flow into them as a being, not a physical form

[fossil hollow]

theyre the one with innate magic

[cyan tide]

Some are, not all

[lean wigeon]

CON shouldnt exist at all, and INT and WIS should be rolled into a single attribute

this will fix 5e trust

[robust dragon]

Agree

[snow zephyr]

Let barbarians cast spells

[humble cairn]

They could just as easily be and have just as sensible justifications, the reason they are not is for game reasons.

[empty thicket]

jajajajajajajaja, No.
No, they would be able to get their conc permanently and we dont want that.

[fossil hollow]

also, warlocks are like. master and apprentice in terms of how they get their magic

[marble lion]

Again charisma for sorc because its not about how tough you are

[cyan tide]

You can turn out to be a sorcerer later in life due to something happening to you

[woven flint]

No caster should be Con caster because no class should need only one ability score without anything else

[marble lion]

Its about how well your essence can utilise the bloodline magic

[cyan tide]

It’s not always innate

[unborn lotus]

Con lore wise makes a lot more sense for sorcerers... But it's a mechanically horrible idea

[fossil hollow]

Right, and CON sorceror would be you channeling that magic like its just another part of your body

[marble lion]

No

[willow geode]

Yeah, my reasoning was if you wanted to make a character with a weak sense of self but great conversational skills it would come down to doing something like 8 Cha and then proficiency in Persuasion etc.

[cyan tide]

Not all sorceries are bloodline related

[marble lion]

Con makes no sense for any caster classes

[humble cairn]

And Ability Scores are basically all mechanics and really nothing to do with lore.

[marble lion]

True but not relevant. Just an example

[empty thicket]

Yeah, wanted to talk about that one, sorc being charisma instead of Widsom or in last Scenario STR. I dont feel it fitting, but that is me

[fossil hollow]

im not arguing innate = CON

[marble lion]

The logic is that youre better at convincing others when your presence is strong

[cyan tide]

I see sorcerer as charisma due to it generally not being a class that improvement is based on how well you can read or use the world around you

[humble cairn]

Ultimately, don't look to Ability Scores for narrative or lore.

[marble lion]

But yes proficiency would serve as skill in it while not being tied to that

[empty thicket]

we had already lots of wisdom casters
Ranger, druid, cleric.

[woven flint]

Time to kick Strahds booty tonight, wish me luck, friends 🧐

[rough basalt]

It'll be easy

He's a clown

[unborn lotus]

Wis is brain con
Int is brain str
Cha is brain dex

No I don't be elaborating further

[woven flint]

Honestly?
Sovis and Rowan could probably do it by themselves lmao

[lean wigeon]

CON casters in d20 fantasy can work

[empty thicket]

Int
Arti and wizard
Charisma
Paladin, bard, warlock
The only stat that doestn have too much is int
But then we have to considerate that 2 of the subclasses that let you get spells (Figther and rogue) use it too

[empty thicket]

i like this way to see it

[lean wigeon]

D&D has done it before. They're called Warlock and Battlemind

[woven flint]

Blood magic.
Casting using my blood juice

[cyan tide]

One of the cooler Wizard subclasses imo

[willow geode]

I don't like this mindset, if I'm making a narratively weak and fragile character I'm giving them low constitution and strength

[humble cairn]

Wow .. as the game goes on they actually explain the Ability Scores less and less.

[cyan tide]

Loved playing my Blood Cleric Plasmoid

[empty thicket]

its what i would like to see in a Warlock or let oyu sacrifice some HP for getting some spellslots back in battle, being a cantrip

[marble lion]

Ability scores mostly make perfect sense to me

[humble cairn]

Yes, start with narrative, not the other way around.

[empty thicket]

So you would always have access to it.
Can be used one time per short rest

[woven flint]

I'm personally a fan of Wisdom Casters, I WANT MORE!
MOOORE!!!

[humble cairn]

Yes, but realize that it's you doing most of the work there.

[cyan tide]

That’s exactly what Blood Magic Wizards are you know

[empty thicket]

Druid, cleric, ranger....Meh, that its okey

[marble lion]

Absolutely, im rationalising

[snow zephyr]

My rule of thumb is to roll up a character then make the backstory

[empty thicket]

wait, those exist?

[cyan tide]

Check out Taldorei Reborn, I think it actually takes hp instead of needing material components but close enough

[woven flint]

Looks at Charisma
Bards, Paladins, Sorcerers, Warlocks.

looks at the poor Intelligence casters
Wizards, Artificers.. (as of now)

We can stand to have 4 of each smh.

[empty thicket]

Oh, nice. Welp, again expected that it exist before i said it

[cyan tide]

Does that UA class we got recently use Int?

[humble cairn]

Psion was Int, yes.

[cyan tide]

See, here’s hoping

[empty thicket]

intelligence get subclasses a lot too, like i told before, Fighter and rogue caster subclass

[humble cairn]

Generally completely opposite of how I do it.

[snow zephyr]

RIP dark sun psionics

[unborn lotus]

Abilitiy scores without a doubt represent something real in D&D if I have low str I'm less likely to hit you with my sword

However they're so abstracted and removed from anything that exists real life that they're not useful to know anything. I think about it like this: an identical set of ability scores on 2 different characters can mean completely different things.

[empty thicket]

That, its justified really well because the character end up learning how to use magic. Instead of getting powers out of nowhere like sorc or a contract with a patron like warlock

[cyan tide]

Wish we could see a more cleaned Dark Sun for 5e

[unborn lotus]

Therefore it's up to player interpretation (maybe a bit of DM but I'd say majority player) what your abstract ability scores mean to you

[snow zephyr]

As long as it's Uber lethal

We're talking full on water madness

[unborn lotus]

Interestingly the official character creation rules have a mix of order (you take breaks to add backstory as you go) but it generally is stats first flavour second. (In order of how you make it not importance)

But once you're adept with making characters then you can certainly go either way. Character creation is a medium you can set out to paint a specific picture or you can paint first and see what it becomes

[unborn lotus]

I wouldn't 100% count it out, but it had such a resurgence in 4e... It really feels like a every second edition type setting 😛

[marble lion]

Why would anyone recommend allocating stats before the character idea?

Think of what you actually wanna do first lol

Dont leave your next 2 years up to dice and random allocation

[snow zephyr]

You know you want to play a class so you throw the species and stats up then write the full story

[glass granite]

Maybe so you can use the stats as a basis to narrow down what your character could be? Restriction and creativity of whatever

[lean wigeon]

i'm generally a fan of alternative attribute systems, like FAE Approaches or how alot of PbtA stats are generally abstract character values like in Fellowship and Masks

I also prefer skill lists over attribute scores since they put more emphasis in how competent a character is at doing SOMETHING instead of putting emphasis into what they are

[marble lion]

But even then youd need to know which number is which stat

[unborn lotus]

Darksun could come to 5e because it's a very popular and unique setting.

It likely won't come because it has an extremely problematic history and has some pretty sus elements which would have to be stripped away, I'm sure the designers are scared of 2 things

1. Hurting the setting by over cleaning it
2. The amount of work that needs to be done to release something like dark sun conscientiously

[marble lion]

But yeah i see why this might be fun
I just think its hilarious to recommend this as default

[humble cairn]

While I agree, it's not super on topic.

[snow zephyr]

It's the problem of trusting your audience to be mature

Adults can handle these topics or steer clear of their own volition, while a younger audience might not understand the gravitas

[unborn lotus]

Well before you allocate stats you pick class race and background
Which is the main decisions in a character idea.
Sometimes is easier to say "I'm making a cleric" and then figure out who they are after a few rolls
Then to say "I'm making Bombdabad the Holy and here's his entire deal"

[snow zephyr]

I'll usually have something figured out before the last stat number is typed in

[humble cairn]

I also detest rolled stats.

[marble lion]

I gotta pass on that

[unborn lotus]

Especially if you're new, it's better to have a character who belongs in D&D first, then render more details about them once you know core stuff about who they are - like they're a cleric. That's a big thing about them you didn't know at the start

[snow zephyr]

I am interested why, as I prefer rolled stats. I'm interested to see if there's something I'm missing

[marble lion]

Im not letting dice decide my roleplay

Unless im doing a fully randomised char for fun as a gimmick

[glass granite]

I might say “I really wanna try out a build where you can yeeet enemies as far as possible!”. Then, I realise that the ability would be good at sea to knock enemies off ships. Then, I made a pirate!
Just an example of one thing I’ve done

I personally don’t use rolled stats either for my games

[humble cairn]

I have played in games with rolled stats and had higher stats than my partymates as well as lower. Neither felt good or fun. the only method of rolling stats I find fun is rolling for an array which the entire party then uses.

[snow zephyr]

I've always used rolled stats unless I wasn't allowed to

[humble cairn]

Agreed 💯

[glass granite]

Not that i hate it, it’s just a lil more complicated for my newbies

[marble lion]

I just give freebies so we can have the fun rolling dice but an equal party

[eager marsh]

Rolled stats is less fair across the board compared to point buy

[cyan tide]

That’s the problem ain’t it

[humble cairn]

I honestly prefer Standard Array.

[snow zephyr]

See, I enjoy having lower stats to a degree. It allows me to build a character that doesn't feel like a super hero, at least in my experience, it's better to have tangible weaknesses

[glass granite]

My only issue with rolled is having people having different power levels

[marble lion]

One might argue that it defeats the point of rolling the stats if you get repeat rolls etc but we seem to enjoy rolling anyway

[eager marsh]

Standard Array is just poorly distributed point buy. My OCD cant stand that

[fossil hollow]

eh, i feel like flaws shouldnt be limited to bad stats

[willow geode]

Point buy is my fav unless I want to make a character with a stat below 8

[snow zephyr]

Flaws can come from unevenly distributed stats

[fossil hollow]

right, but they shouldnt be the only way to get character flaws...

[humble cairn]

My problem is the inequality between party members and how it leads to some characters feeling sidelined. I don't like it from either direction.

[snow zephyr]

Super high int and wisdom, low charisma. Eloquent speaker, uses $10 words every other sentence

[eager marsh]

I am generally very opposed to using mechanical weakness as a roleplay flaw/crutch

8s in dump stats from point buy alone is plenty enough to show weak points in your build

[humble cairn]

Also the pure numbers of your Ability Scores is the least interesting place to look for characterization.

[snow zephyr]

I like throwing in hooks for roleplay opportunities

[humble cairn]

Write an actual, you know .. Flaw.

Don't look to a 5% increase in dice success for your personality.

[snow zephyr]

Yeah, I do that too. I just like having a bunch of options to pick from as to why a character might respond a certain way

[unborn lotus]

Nah having heinous themes in your work that are not handled carefully at all is not an audience problem it's a writer problem.

[willow geode]

Because giving my character who has been bedridden for most of his life 16 constitution and strength is perfectly valid right?

[marble lion]

Depends

[eager marsh]

That’s very much not what I said.

[edgy pagoda]

hey there, my friends want to play dnd again and they're all hooked on pirates (pirates are just very cool) so is there any great suggestions for premade pirate related campaigns out there that exist, cause the last time i cooked a campaign myself it ran not very well, thanks for any suggestions

[humble cairn]

Could be, if maybe you got a magical infusion of something, but then write your temporary reversion to form as a Flaw. That'd be interesting.

[fossil hollow]

also raises the question why theyre an adventurer anyway and not already dead

[eager marsh]

I’m talking about intentionally making a character mechanically below average in things they should be decent at or intentionally making characters that have 10 or less constitution

[glass granite]

I personally draw the line at dumping constitution and/or important stats…

[unborn lotus]

I see what you mean with this though, Yeah it also probably deserves an age rating which could hurt sales.
And best not to forget D&D players are collaborative writers with the books not only consumers, you don't want to encourage young kids to be depicting salvery etc. in their D&D worlds when they have no idea how to approach those subjects with care

[willow geode]

Would rather give him 7 con and maybe use ASIs as an opportunity to make him become more healthy over time

[snow zephyr]

I don't care for intentional nerfing in that way, but I do like it when an opportunity presents itself

[humble cairn]

Ooh, my idea for a Psionic Barbarian could work for this. Your strength of mind is what is telekinetically driving your body.

[edgy pagoda]

this time my friends are actually more interested in the storytelling aspect of dnd and less about whacking enemies and my sanity with the dice

[lean wigeon]

i think players should be rewarded for playing into their characters' flaws. it often just kinda feels bad to have to roll a low stat and at times devolves into "GM may I" with players trying to justify why they can use a different skill/attribute instead

[unborn lotus]

I love this!!

[eager marsh]

A 7 con person simply wouldn’t become an adventurer or would just die before level 3 generally speaking

[glass granite]

The guy could yeet enemies like ungodly far diagonally!
Well he would if he didn’t die session 3

[eager marsh]

Flaws should be personality and tendencies as a character much more than they should be stats

[willow geode]

People are allowed to make characters with 7 con

[glass granite]

I wouldn’t allow it at my table

[willow geode]

Maybe they want to become an adventurer regardless

[marble lion]

Bit low but doable in an easy game

[eager marsh]

They are allowed but I strongly recommend against it and it’s generally immersion breaking to even be believable

[marble lion]

Or intentionally shortlived

[edgy pagoda]

do the traditional fantasy races apply to pirates as well or is there like a book for it with its own rules about races for pirates

[humble cairn]

Any species can be any profession.

[crimson gulch]

I once had a sentient whirlwind on the pirate crew

[edgy pagoda]

elves on the high seas seems like a funny idea

[humble cairn]

Neat!

[fossil hollow]

sure but wether the table would be fine with someone too damn frail to have to carry around is another thing entirely

[snow zephyr]

I'd rather have an age restricted book than to play into the denial of previous editions. Though there is merit into playing it safer. The trouble is that it requires cooperation on both sides of the pen

[humble cairn]

Funnier than anyone else on the high seas? There are Sea Elves, y'know.

[willow geode]

Imagine a table that won't let you play because your character is too weak in combat

[edgy pagoda]

oh cool this reminds me to reread the books i got since its been like 6 months since i touched them

[humble cairn]

Easy enough to imagine, there are plenty of them.

[fossil hollow]

I personally do not run a table where 7 CON is going to last you long

[snow zephyr]

Even then, con 7 isn't necessarily bad at combat. You've just gotta stay out of range

[lean wigeon]

D&D is a game about combat and fighting shit

[fossil hollow]

I will hit you with CON saves

[marble lion]

Pretty reasonable

[crimson gulch]

I had someone with 7 con when I ran a 3d6 hardcore game

[marble lion]

Combat for many parties is common

[crimson gulch]

Died to a gargoyle

[glass granite]

I…would say so

Constitution is just so important

[marble lion]

I dont want to say 7con is evil or stupid but pretending its not an outlier and may be rejected in some games for good reason seems bad

Id love playing 7con sometime

I just wouldnt hold it against tables to say no to the pitch

[unborn lotus]

I don't think not releasing dark sun is denial though, there are hundreds of dead settings
We didn't even get Greyhawk until 2024 pretty sure 😅

And Dark Sun is arguably eating good on a D&D timescale considering it was a major part of 4th edition. Though obviously that's more than a decade ago now

[snow zephyr]

I'd say let them play it, but don't pretend the character is gonna live forever

[marble lion]

Oh i am definitely dying

[empty thicket]

You know what? Fight death.
Challenge it to a duel

[marble lion]

This is just the natural conclusion of my self-sacrifice-complex character tendency

[glass granite]

Hello definitely dying, I’m Nugget

[marble lion]

Do i know you

[snow zephyr]

Releasing a version of dark sun that's been cleaned too heavily could easily shift the tone of the setting from grim and dank

[willow geode]

Is everyone here combat obsessed? There are a lot of different kinds of DND players and games, I'd never tell anyone that the way they made their character is wrong unless the campaign is heavily combat focused.

[marble lion]

Plenty of people have shown a nuanced view on it by now

[empty thicket]

And everyone is missing the funniest part, any drink will hit x10 harder

[marble lion]

But yes most games are quite combat focussed

Not to mention exploration frequently requires con saves as well and reduces hp

Only most roleplay wouldnt punish a con dumper like that

Combat and exploration both do

[willow geode]

As a DM I'd sooner have a 7con rogue in my game than a 20 con 18 str barbarian.

[eager marsh]

Combat is, by the book, 1/3 of the game per the 3 pillars design methodology. Generally speaking, people dont want walking dead weight in a fight to worry about (which -2 hp/level will do not even counting con saves) and pretending the rest of the party won't care about that clearly deliberate choice on your part is just plain lying

[fossil hollow]

ok, thats great.

[marble lion]

So youd rather have a weak than a strong player? Thats fine

[empty thicket]

jejejeej, the barbarian is a literally wall of muscles but cant connect 2 thoughts

[marble lion]

Games balance differently

[empty thicket]

or have the charisma of a rock

[willow geode]

As a DM I'll always scale my fights to a level my players can handle

[marble lion]

Then why do you care which of the two you get

[fossil hollow]

you say that like combat focused games dont do the same

[willow geode]

Stronger characters just means harder fights compared to weaker characters Vs weaker encounters

[crimson gulch]

As a dm If they die they die

[empty thicket]

I can imagine, the wisdom so low that one assassin would be stabbing him in the back for half of hte day and he wont notice

[fossil hollow]

and whats the problem with harder fights?

[unborn lotus]

One day someone is going to do this to you

[glass granite]

Sure, there are many that aren’t. Mine have a fair bit of combat focus

[glass granite]

They have

[charred lance]

some people enjoy the character designs Maybe your character is sick and, as a result, has a low con but balances it out some other way

[marble lion]

Its pretty impossible to balsnce out 7 con honestly

[hushed mason]

One of my players is flipping out because I made the last combat "too hard". Sigh.

[marble lion]

Hp is a core mechanic universal in all games with combat or exploration

[charred lance]

genuinely who cares rely on ur teammates

[hushed mason]

They're not dead, but they're acting like they might as well be.

[fossil hollow]

eh, impossible id say is a bit much

[willow geode]

Nothing, but if my player has a weak character I'd obviously scale it down

[marble lion]

Thats a new point then

[fossil hollow]

why does one character have to make it easier for others

[marble lion]

What if the rest of the party is strong?

[charred lance]

u have to survive one way or the other. If ur con is low, maybe urcharacter'ss personality relies onstrategic playa instead

[eager marsh]

5e mechanically as a baseline already has very limited options to directly have a squishy character be protected. And thats assuming normal/positive con mods. -2hp/level is a lot

[charred lance]

whats up with my grammar

[marble lion]

And the others dont use strategy?

[unborn lotus]

I'm not combat obsessed but we are playing D&D there will be combat.
I do not allow joke builds at my tables. No low Str fighters or low int wizards. It's not fun, everyone else in the party is sick of it turn 1 and I don't want to have to kill my players characters multiple times before they finally build a viable player.

[charred lance]

ofc they do but ud have to play it diffrently obviously

[willow geode]

It's a game of imagination, the weaker character could hang back and attack from a range and I'd focus them less

[unborn lotus]

To sit at my table I expect you to take the game with a minimum level of seriousness

[snow zephyr]

I can see low strength fighters if it's an archer and pretty much nothing else

[charred lance]

maybe u have a healer that doesnt join combat directly

[fossil hollow]

right, and its not their imagination alone that matters

[unborn lotus]

That said dump stat con I'd be fine with, it's not a core mechanic to any class

[charred lance]

maybe u have a ranger that shoots out of site

[lean wigeon]

D&D has roots in wargaming and like the vast majority of the rules and character options are dedicated to combat. It's really hard to make a D&D game not about combat unless you wish to simply not interact with most of the system's options and rules.

[unborn lotus]

Oh yeah Dex fighters are 100% legit hahs

[eager marsh]

its a core stat to every class by default

[charred lance]

support characters exist

[marble lion]

If i had 7con and found a game to play in, id happily expect the dm to not treat me any different than the rest and most likely give my life rather soon

[fossil hollow]

... clerics and bards still want decent CON

[marble lion]

Id enjoy it and die happily

[eager marsh]

support characters exist and every inteligent enemy will target them first

[cyan tide]

It’s arguable a core mechanic of every character though

[unborn lotus]

Yeah but you can make a strong wizard, focus on a different stat for roleplay reasons and just have low health

[marble lion]

If the dm pulled punches with me id probs be disappointed

[snow zephyr]

Finesse weapons and bows work surprisingly well

[charred lance]

idealy yes but what if thats ur character's story and personality????

[eager marsh]

the life cleric has brought the entire party up from down/dying in a single turn many times. every smart boss focus fires him first

[unborn lotus]

Wizards don't want to get hit anyway so I don't see a big difference between a low teens con wizard and high single digit.
My table isn't that optimised

[marble lion]

Then youll die fast

[cyan tide]

Some subclasses have con as a core mechanic too

[unborn lotus]

Paladin dumping con would be more concerning to me

[charred lance]

woah

[fossil hollow]

thats something to discuss with the DM and the rest of the group

[marble lion]

Dying isnt a problem though. Its fun

[charred lance]

thats legit how any game goess

[fossil hollow]

Thats literally just another example of "this is what my character would do"

[marble lion]

But not every game is up for having a selfsabotaging member

[fossil hollow]

or in this scenario "this is what my character just is"

[charred lance]

thats why u discuss it with ur team simple as that

[marble lion]

Yes

I think you misunderstand the chats statements

It has been repeatedly said that this concept can be used

[snow zephyr]

One of the most entertaining character archetypes for me will always be "the character who pretends to be a different type of warrior"

[marble lion]

Noone is saying youre a bad person for doing this

[cyan tide]

Muscle Wizard let’s go

[charred lance]

Again, no, people want to play different characters. I once played as a merchant accompanying the hero's party. I enjoyed the homebrew business system and didnt directly join fights

[snow zephyr]

Barbarian who's larping as a cleric/bard

[hushed mason]

Oo oo... I'll say it!

[fossil hollow]

sure, but not every group will be a good fit for them has been the point this time...

[marble lion]

I dont want to be called a bad person

[snow zephyr]

I may not be able to wear heavy armor but you're gonna be shocked when I put the holy symbol away

[charred lance]

Bravo! That's why u discuss with your group; we are humans and have basic communication skills. I think the player can put them to use

[willow geode]

7 con won't work for every type of game, but sometimes it adds a level of character depth that you wouldn't get if your character was combat optimized is all I'm saying

[marble lion]

Why are you acting like anyone here disagrees

[fossil hollow]

... ive literally been syaing this for the past 30 minutes

[snow zephyr]

Dungeon crawls are underrated

[charred lance]

where did i say so

[marble lion]

I think youre the one earning the sarcastic bravo!

[charred lance]

im just discussing, not every convo is a debate

[charred lance]

not sarcastic im agreeing

[marble lion]

Incredible

[charred lance]

fabulous

[fossil hollow]

a lot of convos here tend to become such, forgive us

[hushed mason]

S'wonderful.

[marble lion]

Nah that was just poor tone

[charred lance]

no not at all dont apologize

[marble lion]

Glad to hear it though

[cyan tide]

Hey what would be a good name for a Spiderverse Variant that’s a dnd character, Rogue specifically, wanna do the Peter Parker thing, maybe spell it like Petyrr or something?

[humble cairn]

On the flip side there are also tables that run games that are combat light or combat free. They're pregnant not common, but not unheard of. Wild Beyond the Witchlight was written with zero combat options available

[charred lance]

Petyr of Parkyr Row

[cyan tide]

Why row?

[scenic zinc]

Is there some reason it can't just be peter?

[cyan tide]

Too obvious

[hushed mason]

Indeed. What's wrong with Peter?

[snow zephyr]

Dis Pater

[charred lance]

cause of the vibes duh

[cyan tide]

Valid

[charred lance]

Perrin Parkyr

[humble cairn]

Petyr is Peter, just in Russian, I believe?

[scenic zinc]

And petyr isn't?

[hushed mason]

Pitor

[humble cairn]

Pyotr

[charred lance]

he wants to vibefy it he doesnt like the name, let the guy be

[cyan tide]

If there’s a better name then go ahead l

[snow zephyr]

That name could have Harry implications

[cyan tide]

Liking this tbh

[charred lance]

Petyr the (give him a title)

[scenic zinc]

You're reading far too much into what I'm saying. Please stop assuming things.

[charred lance]

whys everyone soo negative here

[scenic zinc]

All I'm saying are the words I'm typing.

[limber trail]

Petyr the Parkyr

[snow zephyr]

Spider, the Man

[charred lance]

smile

[scenic zinc]

Why are you assuming I'm being negative?

[charred lance]

negative tone'

why are u assuming that im reading too much into it?

goes both ways

[humble cairn]

Do we need a time out?

[scenic zinc]

#dnd-discussion message

Because of silly things like this. There's no 'tone'.

[charred lance]

u might be a genius.

[vagrant quartz]

spider, the man, after he becomes a werewolf

[fossil hollow]

rember that tone does not translate well over text

[snow zephyr]

Lycan the Thrope

Lycan, the Spider

[charred lance]

tone is part of text analysis its not just the way u talk

[scenic zinc]

Which is why I don't do that. As stated, all I'm saying is what I type.

[scenic zinc]

Stop doing that, specifically when it comes to me. I'm only saying what I type. There's no subtext.

[charred lance]

doing what? theres no subtext either???

[vagrant quartz]

Lycan the spider after he dies and gets brought back as an undead

[lean wigeon]

werewolves? where? wolves? men that are wolves? many wolves. everywhere. many men. that is enough

[scenic zinc]

There's no analysis required when you read what I type. Just take it at face value. It's very simple.

[charred lance]

did i say analysis was needed? show me please

[snow zephyr]

I just want to see a setting where lycanthropy is the default and they tell campfire stories about a human that doesn't turn into a wolf at night

[fossil hollow]

yes... and thats why im reminding. People will and can read it differently based on their own texting habits

[spark spruce]

I'm a player looking for a game and before you tell me I've tried #538461441540489216 and it didn't work

[scenic zinc]

#dnd-discussion message

Here you go.

[fossil hollow]

like, i was not aware that periods mark youre angry until my sister told me

[charred lance]

yes, thats a factual statement adding on what they said where were u mentioned?

[cyan tide]

Seems a lil sexist but ok jk

[vagrant quartz]

and they stay indoors and use the toilet!!! OouooOOoouh

[scenic zinc]

They don't. It's proper grammar. If she is inferring that without your intended implication, that's not on you.

[charred lance]

it doesnt

it doesn't.

[snow zephyr]

The same setting where vampires get buffed by the sun and silver

[fossil hollow]

... no that that type of period. This one: .

[cyan tide]

I know I’m joking lol

[fossil hollow]

tell that to my gen z sisters

[charred lance]

listen im genz, dont got that issue

[fossil hollow]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[charred lance]

should give them grammar lessons if anything lol

[idle oar]

Let's get back to D&D discussion please

[fossil hollow]

the point still stands. Different people, different typing habits and interpretations

[cosmic roost]

https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/0/828/c2-16.png

[vagrant quartz]

sunscreen becomes torture

[snow zephyr]

Dracula with biceps the size of a barbarian's head

[vagrant quartz]

omg that pfp is amazing TwT

[cyan tide]

Yeah why the hell are vampires always skinny

Hell a world where the amount of blood goes directly into powering your muscles is a vibe

[snow zephyr]

They don't eat enough carbs for bulking

[vagrant quartz]

try to build muscle when you arent really alive

[fossil hollow]

do you know how much metabolism they must have to regenerate and have that superhuman strength?

[charred lance]

they dont consume fat do they

mostly rely on blood for energy

[snow zephyr]

They waste all that time sulking when they could be getting gainz

[charred lance]

they rely on whatever nutritions blood offers

[cyan tide]

No sulking start bulking

[fossil hollow]

and yeah, the energy yield from blood cant be that high

[snow zephyr]

Just go to your local FleshCrafters

[charred lance]

exactly

[cyan tide]

Blood protein powder

[charred lance]

thats why they need a lo

[vagrant quartz]

i think they stay small to save on coffin production

[snow zephyr]

Trying to get one over on big undertaker

[humble cairn]

Young Piotr was an orphan in the Parker House Orphanage where he was sent after his Aunt and Uncle were killed by senseless gang violence on the streets of Waterdeep. A youth spent escaping Parker House to get into trouble on the streets gave him a familiarity with the rooftops until he accidentally stumbled upon a magically imbued spiders nest, which granted him limited magical powers. Adopted into House Stark, he is being hunted by the Drider, Octavius, for the magical spider essence in his blood.

[vagrant quartz]

so he's a sorcerer

[charred lance]

the guy asked for a name u gave him a story 😭

[cyan tide]

YOOOOO

[timid current]

is that just 1602

[cyan tide]

MY DUDE

[cosmic roost]

https://media-waterdeep.cursecdn.com/attachments/0/828/c2-16.png

[humble cairn]

I would build as an Arcane Trickster.

[vagrant quartz]

also makes sense

[cyan tide]

I was gonna use the Arachnoid Stalker from Valdas spire of secrets lol

[scenic zinc]

Warlock, fiend patron of Lolth could make sense too

[humble cairn]

That works better, I didn't know if you were using 3rd party.

[cyan tide]

Love me some good third party

[snow zephyr]

Does 5e have the ol cosmic horror?

[scenic zinc]

Great Old One warlock patron

[snow zephyr]

Some of the ol unspeakable madness wrought by unfathomable ancient evils

[cyan tide]

Oh totally, what are those monsters called again? From Van Richtens…

[humble cairn]

They have a section discussing cosmic horror in Van Richten's Guide.

[cyan tide]

Wait I think they might just be called Cosmic Horrors

[empty thicket]

i might do in some close future a Wild magic sorc, i cant way to get that jellyfish screaming in the arena

[snow zephyr]

Huh, I thought there'd be a lovecraft crossover for sure

[scenic zinc]

#dnd-discussion message

Cthulu

[vagrant quartz]

my favorite thing is the spirit bard telling people a ghost story so uncomphrensible the person who hears it gets STUNNED

[humble cairn]

Not a big deal, but I don't prefer being addressed as any variation on dude or bro.

[snow zephyr]

Is that official?

[scenic zinc]

Yes

[cyan tide]

Oh third party has Cthulh by torchlight on dnd beyond

[cyan tide]

Any term you prefer?

[scenic zinc]

You don't need to dip into 3rd party for cthulu

[humble cairn]

They mention Cthulu by name in the Great Old One warlock section.

[cyan tide]

Third party but solid

[snow zephyr]

Interesting, I don't know how I missed that

[humble cairn]

Just not any of those. Ophid works.

[cyan tide]

Gotcha

[snow zephyr]

That is not dead which can cast Eldritch blast

[scenic zinc]

When you choose this subclass, you might bind yourself to an unspeakable being from the Far Realm or an elder god—a being such as Tharizdun, the Chained God; Zargon, the Returner; Hadar, the Dark Hunger; or Great Cthulhu. Or you might invoke several entities without yoking yourself to one. The motives of these beings are incomprehensible, and the Great Old One might be indifferent to your existence. But the secrets you’ve learned nevertheless allow you to draw strange magic from it.

[uncut zenith]

“Great old one” is also a category of monster in the Lovecraftian Mythos, so I personally don’t really think it’s that difficult of a connection to make

[snow zephyr]

Yeah, the intent was more looking for the cosmic horror for modules and whatnot

It's all gravy though

[cyan tide]

It’d be cool to make the Arachnoid Stalker Silkborn too but that leads to a lot of wasted features, maybe use Taldorei Heritage rules to trade some

[crimson gulch]

Phandelver and below

[unborn lotus]

Not an official one but the Far Realm is a core part of D&D cosmology and is straight ripped from Lovecraft

Chuthulu and Mind Flayers both originate from the far realm

[hot marlin]

Though nothing here is really actually Lovecraft

[unborn lotus]

Cthulhu is from Lovecraft?

[hot marlin]

Yeah but Cthulhu is not in official D&D lore

[unborn lotus]

And I'm not well read up on my Lovecraft lore but I'm pretty sure he essentially has a far realm
All his horrors come from a different dimension beyond human understanding

[unborn lotus]

Yes it is? It's literally in the Players Handbook

[hot marlin]

No actually, Lovecraft stuff just comes from this dimension. Or the dreamlands.

There's no real "other dimension" as we understand it in Lovecraft

[worthy raven]

Hey do I press looking for a game? I’m really to this channel it’s pretty confusing

[hot marlin]

Except the dreamlands, but that's another thing

[unborn lotus]

Where's Cthulhu from in Lovecraft?

[fossil hollow]

#find-a-game

[unborn lotus]

Actually asking this isn't a gotcha 😅

[hot marlin]

Call of Cthulhu. Also mentioned in other novels

But the fact that Cthulhu is mentioned in the PHB escaped my notice. Though just because it's mentioned does not mean it's part of the lore, I would say

[unborn lotus]

I mean literally where does he come from, I believe he's summoned by a cult, but summoned from where?

[meager fractal]

Hi everyone, how goes D&D tonight?

[unborn lotus]

He had an entry in Deities and Demigods which was a pretty major early handbook

[fossil hollow]

one does not simply summon any of the Lovecraftian horrors

[hot marlin]

No, Cthulhu is not summoned. He "lives", for a given definition of living, in an underwater city in the pacific ocean

[unborn lotus]

And I believe he showed up in modules and things... But definitely not since 5e so my knowledge of D&D Cthulhu comes from whispers of grognards in the shadows

[hot marlin]

Really? That, I did not remember. Nevermind then

[unborn lotus]

D&D also has Aberations and Elder Evils in general which are all extremely Lovecraft inspired the way much of D&D is Tolkien inspired

Like yeah Tolkien didn't have goblins as we know them... but they're still basically straight out of Tolkien (bad example because goblins come from different folklore but I hope yknow what I'm getting at)

[hot marlin]

Aberrations and elder evils don't have much Lovecraft DNA. They're weird stuff, but not really Lovecraftian. In aesthetics, but not in theme, mechanics or narrative

It's in the name. "Evil". If it's evil, it's not Lovecraft

[fossil hollow]

Tharizdun confuzzles me because ive always thought he was Big Elemental

[eager marsh]

I'd argue against that. Mind Flayers commit horrid terrifying otherworldly attrocities on the regular

[fossil hollow]

We found a rogue mind flayer, gettim

[hot marlin]

Yes. Which excludes them from being Lovecraftian.

[uncut zenith]

Yeah, Lovecraftian is less a creature type and more an overall theme/tone

[eager marsh]

Considering all his writing was based on his own prejudices and phobias, I dont see how something intentionally or conceptually malicious disqualifies it from the same category

[cyan tide]

Keeping on with this Spider-Man in dnd idea, so many of spiders villains can be replicated easily in dnd

[unborn lotus]

I read the DMG for Lovecraftian excerpts honestly everyone should just read the 2024 Far Realm entry if you want to know about it haha

[cyan tide]

Green Goblin and Hobgoblin are obvious

[hot marlin]

This is a non-sequitur. Lovecraft was a racist, yes. And Lovecraft did not believe in evil. Lovecraftian horror comes partly from the fact that morality does not exist in the Lovecraft universe

[unborn lotus]

An icoic line is
Anyone who has seen the Far Realm mutters about eyes, tentacles, and horror.

[hot marlin]

In fact Lovecraftian horror requires the absence of morality.

[eager marsh]

I wasn't specifically referring to racism but his general ignorance but ok.

[uncut zenith]

I think the biggest issue with trying to portray the Lovecraftian level of cosmic horror is that the “madness” of Lovecraft comes from this idea that there’s no fighting the forces that occur beyond our own perception.

[cyan tide]

Black Cat as a Tabasco, Lizard as a Lizardfolk, Venom and Carnage can probs get away with being Geleton

[uncut zenith]

Whereas mindflayers are creatures that can be fought and (though temporarily) defeated

[fossil hollow]

We do not know what a Geleton is

[unborn lotus]

Ehhhh idk about that. Lovecraft's philosophy isn't exactly the same as what he writes

[hot marlin]

His ignorance is irrelevant. Morality does not exist in the Lovecraft universe. If it's evil, it's not Lovecraftian.

[fossil hollow]

... eh?

[leaden trench]

this is a question for a character I'm Making, Its a Gnome Barbarian (Funny small boi go bonk), what subclasses would be good for this fella?

[cyan tide]

It’s the race that came out last year with Griffon Saddlebag

[unborn lotus]

Just because he doesn't like the word evil, doesn't mean that Elder Evil is not an apt description of Cthulhu

[eager marsh]

Says...who?

[fossil hollow]

... how did i miss that one

[uncut zenith]

The scariest thing about Lovecraft’s cosmic horror is just the realization that everything that happens in the universe is inexplicable and inescapable, which kinda doesn’t work well with D&D’s inherent assumptions of heroic fantasy

[cyan tide]

“Geletons are the living, symbiotic fusion of two semiconscious life forms: oozes and reanimated skeletons.“

[rough basalt]

This version of fun house is fun too

[unborn lotus]

For mortals, knowledge of the Far Realm is a struggle of the mind to overcome the boundaries of matter, space, and rational thought.

[eager marsh]

Yea but evil is already subjective by mortal morality. something can be objectively amoral in what it does, or some other abnormal morality, and still be declared evil by our sensibilities

[hot marlin]

Cthulhu is not evil. Cthulhu is barely even a character. Cthulhu has no desires, no wants and doesn't even do stuff. The danger of Cthulhu is all caused by the collateral psychic emanations of Cthulhu when it's awake.

So even by our sensibilities Cthulhu is not evil

[unborn lotus]

I don't know enough about Lovecraft to bother arguing, but I do know almost all D&D historians agree the Far Realm and Aberration's DNA is straight from Lovecraft, and I've often read discussions of Lovecraft fans comparing and contrasting the two

[fossil hollow]

assigning mortal morality to HP's work also seems... a bit...

[unborn lotus]

You could find countless Reddit threads about Lovecraft and D&D

[hot marlin]

They are D&D historians, not Lovecraft readers clearly.

[unborn lotus]

In the same way a natural disaster isn't evil right? But Cthulhu is about the same type of evil as Godzilla Lovecraft just wants to make a big deal about how his world is not like other girls

[hot marlin]

This is not DNA. This is aesthetics. The Far Realm mimics what Lovecraft stuff looks like. But no mechanics, no theme, and no narrative.

[cyan tide]

Y’all read Shadow over Innsmouth?

[unborn lotus]

Certainly both, you think you're the only Lovecraft + D&D fan 🤣

[woven flint]

Well... my Warlock is playing Chess with Strahd at the moment as the party is fighting for their lives. lmao

[glass granite]

Who’s winning

[woven flint]

My warlock is, surprisingly

[glass granite]

Helll yeahhh

[hot marlin]

The ones who say that the Far Realm has "Lovecraft DNA" misread Lovecraft or did not read him at all. They are simply wrong.

[unborn lotus]

Are you using the game set proficiency rules as written 🤓

[woven flint]

He doesn't even have anything to Int positive or negative, he's just been lucky

[glass granite]

Are you actually playing chess or is it skill checks?

[woven flint]

Skill checks,
If we were really playing chess, the party would be screwed

[unborn lotus]

I mean you didn't know Cthulhu was in D&D a minute ago buddy 😅
I think there's probaby someone who's explored these themes more deeply than you

[uncut zenith]

The general idea behind the Lovecraftian Mythos is that those creatures is that they’re not “evil”, they simply exist. They may be antagonistic to mortals, thus making them “evil” to us, but otherwise they just are what they are.

[hot marlin]

I fail to see how the fact that I did not know of Cthulhu's presence in D&D changes that fact.

I know Lovecraft, I have read Lovecraft. I have read Lovecraft experts and commentators.

[unborn lotus]

The Lovecraft Wiki has a page on D&D which might be interesting to you

And is obviously written by Lovecraft fans

[hot marlin]

The simple fact is that if something has an alignment, it goes deeply against the themes of Lovecraft's writings.

Lovecraft died long before D&D existed. So clearly this Lovecraft wiki is not named correctly

[cyan tide]

Lovecraft? Nah Hatemine

[humble cairn]

@cyan tide 1) I shudder to think what Lolth would do if She discovered a whole multiversal league of spider themed folk, 2) I think your Spiderverse variant might be better served coming from Ravnica, come to think of it. The Simic Combine and the Izzet League could account for a good number of the Sinister Six as well as spider powers.

[cyan tide]

Not a bad idea tbh, was thinking of making doc ock a simic hybrid

[humble cairn]

That was not Incubus, was it?

[hot marlin]

My position is simple: Lovecraft requires amorality. The universe is amoral. If the universe is moral, it is necessarily excluded from Lovecraftian themes

[hot marlin]

Actually I did not know or remember that Cthulhu was mentioned in the PHB

[humble cairn]

Ahh okay, that's two people today then.

[uncut zenith]

Honestly one example of a non-Lovecraftian creature from another fandom that reminds me of Lovecraft is Marvel’s Galactus. Not necessarily “evil”, but an antagonist because what he exists for is a threat to countless people.

[hot marlin]

Again, I get back to this: Some D&D creatures mimic Lovecraftian aesthetics. None have Lovecraftian mechanics, themes and narratives.

[unborn lotus]

That's narrow minded to the fact that D&D is a complex mythology that weaves many different authors works and ancient religions into a patchwork.

The simple facts are, the creators of D&D were enormous Lovecraft fans, and the early players of D&D treated Lovecraft's work with similar reverence to Tolkien's - these books were like bibles to D&D players in 80s.
And it's a fact that a lot of Lovecraft's themes, the way the world feels and some of D&D's creatures are ripped deliberately from Lovecraft.

But obviously D&D is not a Lovecraft work and doesn't want to be. It's not going to be 1:1 with whatever obscure Lovecraft philosophy you want to scrutinise it against.

There are Lovecraft TTRPGs but D&D isn't one of them, it's a complex fantasy world where Lovecraft is one of dozens of pillars

[vast pelican]

Suggestion?

[hot marlin]

Saying something is Lovecraftian because of aesthetics would be like saying that D&D has My Little Poney elements because there are ponies and unicorns and pegasi

[humble cairn]

And I'm not even sure they want to try for specifically Lovecraftian, they go for "Cosmic Horror."

[uncut zenith]

Galactus isn’t in D&D tho, so that’s a convo for somewhere else maybe, but it gives me the same vibe. He’s an antagonist because he’s a threat to me, but whether he’s evil or not is a matter of perspective. Which is just another example as to why alignment sucks in D&D.

[vast pelican]

Oh, I see, metaphorical

[hot marlin]

Again: Aesthetics.

[fossil hollow]

they are owned by the same company...

[woven flint]

No
I'm not gonna try to cast spells on Strahd when I'm locked in a room with him by myself lmao

[unborn lotus]

D&D 1000% has my little pony elements are you kidding me?

[woven flint]

We're playing chess and he's not trying to kill me at the moment

[fossil hollow]

the rest of us are dying though, thanks Tokii

[hot marlin]

I played a few Dragonchess games with Strahd in my own campaign. Won the first, lost the second, won the third.

[glass granite]

Tokii, win fast else your mates are gonna perish

[hot marlin]

Killed him before we had time for a fourth. But I gifted him a handcarved Dragonchess set I made myself

[fossil hollow]

he won first round, and lost second

[woven flint]

He seems to "like" my character because he was respectful to Strahd and chastised his group for being rude..
Mostly because he didn't want Strahd to try and kill them and wanted to negotiate

[fossil hollow]

I will freaking cave that incel's skull in

[humble cairn]

Ehh ... I think you're maybe being a bit too elitist about this. Sometimes things can be referred to as just an aesthetic without the deeper themes.

[woven flint]

I won the first and the second lol

[fossil hollow]

oh wait

[humble cairn]

"Lovecraftian" can be just an aesthetic.

[glass granite]

Is it a best of three?

[woven flint]

I dunno

[fossil hollow]

we're still on the... beginning of the third round?

[woven flint]

Its funny because the Warlock with 10 int is beating the Vampire with 20 Int

[fossil hollow]

Sovis is in 4 turns

[hot marlin]

Which is what I'm doing. I am saying and have been saying that it's just Lovecraftian aesthetics.

[humble cairn]

Right, but correcting people to add that "aesthetics only" caveat isn't super necessary.

[fossil hollow]

Sovis is beating Strahd's arse

In Dragonchess

[unborn lotus]

Lovecraft himself is an aesthetic. Lovecraft was not a philosopher (at least not professionally) the only way to minick his work is with his aesthetic.
His philosophy is secondary to his world building

[hot marlin]

As grandma Incubus used to say "Living is not necessary. If you only did necessary things, I'd expect you to lie down in a ditch and wait to die so I could make soup out of your liver"

[humble cairn]

Interesting grandma.

[fossil hollow]

... you are not helping against the Fiend allegations

You got a night hag for a grandma?

[hot marlin]

Ok see, that statement I disagree with a lot and seems to me like a profund misreading of Lovecraft. Writers do not need to be philosophers for their work to not just be aesthetics. And his work has been mimicked without the aesthetics a lot.

[vagrant quartz]

huh, id like to try some soup now

[hot marlin]

I'm starting to think she may have been kind of a bad person

[uncut zenith]

I will say, VRGTR actually gives some pretty good insight on running cosmic horror in D&D

[humble cairn]

Ooh, I'm sorry.

[uncut zenith]

I still don’t think it’s perfect, given the fact that D&D inherently assumes you’re heroes trying to stop the big threat and a lot of cosmic horror themes focus on the realization of your own insignificance in the cosmic scheme of things, but they at least bring up some good points

[unborn lotus]

You sound like a pretty big Lovecraft fanboy and that cool
But I think it'd be hard to argue that Lovecraft's main contribution to literature was not his asthetic. It's what he's remembered for and it's his major influence
Like Lovecraft all but invented cosmic horror. There is nothing about his morality that even comes close to that level of impact on media at large

But if your question is "does D&D have Lovecraft morality built into it" the answer is mostly no

[hot marlin]

I am not a fanboy of anyone or anything.

[unborn lotus]

Though it definitely does, D&D morality is as varied and inconsistent as it's lore, there are plenty of morally grey there is no evil stories and world's in D&D... Just probably many more black and white good and evil stories

[glass granite]

I’d say enjoying someone’s work doesn’t automatically make you a fanboy…

[unborn lotus]

But your question was does D&D have Lovecraft in it and the answer is yes it has literal characters from Lovecraft. And also yes it has its own Lovecraftian inspired cosmic horror characters and themes

[hot marlin]

And finally: Cosmic horror is not about aesthetics. And it's not about morality. There is no such thing as Lovecraft morality because Lovecraft writing are characterized, among other things, by their absence of morality. What "literature" decided to remember about Lovecraft may be the aesthetic, or it may not be. But that does not matter. Lovecraftian aesthetic does not make a fiction Lovecraftian.

[jaunty wyvern]

Yea Cthulhu by Torchlight came out relatively recently

[hot marlin]

And no, D&D does not actually have cosmic horror. Like, at all.

Horror, yes. Nothing cosmic

[jaunty wyvern]

It has a lot of tools to create it with the correct application of existing elements

[uncut zenith]

It’s a pretty weak book imo

[hot marlin]

Aboleth and illithids are not cosmic horror. They're the sort of thing that could be found in pulp fantasy.

[jaunty wyvern]

I agree

[fossil hollow]

We got horrors

[uncut zenith]

Not worth the money I spent on it

[jaunty wyvern]

Crooked Moon has some good abberations for use in cosmic horror

[hot marlin]

Cosmic horror requires depowerement and insignificance. Insignificance is more or less impossible in the framework of D&D.