#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 81 of 1

calm crest
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Just because Darkvision is no longer mechanically Infravision doesn’t mean that Drow cities don’t still keep time by heating large rocks that gradually cool, as nothing has explicitly retconned it. Lore and mechanics are oftentimes divorced from each other.

bleak wedge
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I want to make a capoeira(afro-brazilian martial art) inspired character in forgotten realms, and am wondering if historically, there are any groups, people's, or area that experienced systematic oppression (or even slavery).
Does anyone have a suggestion for trying to set that character into a lore accurate part of the world?

If not I'll probably just pick a spot

versed hare
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Could be chult

jagged apex
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though to my knowledge chult is not one of them

grim siren
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While frowned upon slavery isn't illegal in Port Nyanzaru.

jagged apex
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plus far as i know there is not really a centralized government for chult, most of the cities are either natives deep in the island or a few port cities

versed hare
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theres the one port and the savage haunted jungle

grim siren
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Chult itself is not centralized in years passed Amn controlled the port. Parts of the peninsula have its own governments though such as Omgar, Thindol, and the Tashalar.

mystic vortex
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is there any lore about Giants disliking Lycanthropy?

clever path
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They can’t even be affected by it. They’re mostly known for hating dwarves and vice versa and hating dragons and vice versa

mystic vortex
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ok, thx, will change that first part, nothing is more epic than a Giant WereMammoth, but its great to know they can't get it

modest badger
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Lorewise there is some very interesting changes to how this is approached over the editions, as originally it wasn't really Sunlight by itself that was the issue, but time spent away from their homeland (And sunlight made it act faster).

In 1e sunlight faded them quicker, but the issue was simply being away from the natural radiations of their homeland. in FR this was Faerzress, in GH it was Lacofcite and Teomkite). In 1e these radiations were specifically in the Vault of the Drow and that drow culture, so it's possible even being elsewhere in the underdark could fade them.
1e, Unearthed Arcana:

The 50% magic resistance possessed by NPC dark elves is likewise not a property of player characters, who have abandoned their homeland; it is likely that this power is the result of extended dabbling in the dark arts as well as the effects of their environment. Once having made the decision to embark upon an adventuring career, a drow player character can never regain this magic resistance short of the use of wish spells or similar magics, but can still rise in power and dominate fellow dark elves

1e, G3: Hall of the Fire Giant King (First appearance):

Special note regarding drow cloaks, armor and weapons: All of these items have special properties, although none of them radiate any magic. The items are made under the conditions particular to the strange homeland of the drow, for this place has unknown radiations which impart special properties to these (items). When such items are exposed to direct sunlight a rotting process sets in. This process is absolutely irreversible, and within 2 weeks cloaks will fall to shreds, while armour and weapons become pitted and unusable. If items are not exposed to sunlight they will retain their magical properties for 31-50 days before losing them, and if they are exposed to the radiation of the drow homeland 30 or so days, they will remain potent.

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Vault of the Drow:

The small "star" nodes glow in radiant hues of mauve, lake, violet, puce, lilac, and deep blue. The large "moon" of tumkeoite casts beams of shimmering amethyst which touch the crystalline formations with colors unknown to any other visual experience.
(...)
These growing things all thrive upon** the radiation **of the "stars" and "moon" above, or the fertilizers spread about for them by slaves and servants of the inhabitants of the Vault, the Dark Elves

modest badger
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In 2nd edition this continued, but sunlight still became the main concern. Due to being dark adapted creatures, drow would suffer penalties in any bright light, but sunlight would cause their gear to decay as well, but even long periods outside of the underdark's radiation would decay them. The Complete Book of Elves adds drow as a player option and similarily notes it's not sunlight, but being away from the underdark that fades their powers.

In 3.5 Drow themselves have light blindness, but no reaction to sunlight specifically. I can't recall any mention of them loosing any abilities (or even magic items) due to sunlight or even duration away from the underdark.

5e went back briefly to sunlight specifically being an issue for drow, but also applied the same rules to other species, and kept the Sunlight decaying drow magic items like piwafwi.

jagged apex
sage prawn
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I'd appreciate some lore on Living Spells.

I read up on them on the Forgotten Reams wiki. While it did shed some light on them, mostly well known examples of living spells, it was still kind of vague other than saying a lot are remnants from ancient civilizations like Netheril. That or just simply saying wild magic caused it lol.

How exactly is a living spell created? Are they sentient? Like a living fireball, if possible. Do they just act out how the spell would behave? Or can they start acting on their own?

sharp owl
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It varies, there's no one way

calm crest
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Living spells are typically produced by accident.

sharp owl
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Some living spells are intentional creations. Some are the result of accidental releases of magic.

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For example there are living spells in the Mournlands of Eberron that are the result of the cataclysm known as the Mourning

jagged apex
sharp owl
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There are living spells in the Forgotten Realms, hence then finding references to them

calm crest
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They aren’t especially intelligent, marginally more so than normal animals. They mostly just attack anything that gets near them.

jagged apex
calm crest
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I believe most of the living spells on Toril were either created by the Spellplague or Karsus’ Folly, the two Day of Mourning-sized magical disasters of the Forgotten Realms.

sage prawn
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I read that the Mad Mage Halastar created some

calm crest
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Yeah, mad-sciencing them into existence like a normal construct is their other possible origin.

spare smelt
modest badger
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I do find it interesting that 'sunlight sensitivity' started as a drow only thing and was more about the radiation of their homeland, then in 3.5 it just became 'doesn't like bright light' while some other species had actual sunlight sensitivity, and then in early 5e sunlight senstivity came back for mutilple species and drow magic items decayed again.

twilit creek
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Is there a god of dreams

calm crest
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Setting?

jagged apex
versed hare
copper harbor
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Can i ask in this channel about the lore of Faerün deitys and gods?

feral lintel
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Yes

copper harbor
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What kind of things should happen to a Cleric devoted to Selüne, for to be "converted" or begin to praying to Shar?

versed hare
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If they willingly sought it put it was probably because they suffered a great loss. If it's a forced conversion that's some heavy magical coersion

copper harbor
versed hare
jagged apex
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if later in life, you could involve the real sort of wrench that is the dark moon heresy which was a doctrine that proposed the two goddesses were 2 sides of the same being, and though originally a scam seemed to have some vague merit to it, and is known to teach it to followers of shar and selune alike mainly aiming to lure away all but the most unwaveringly devoted followers which could reasonably so doubt in either's faith potentially even if it does not convince them to join https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Moon_heresy

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though more character specific details and further questioning on the matter might be better suited for #character-discussion

polar sparrow
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Can a character be high enough level to become a warlock patron? I know I can just hand wave it as a DM but what are the criteria for a patron?

A player in my game adores a wizard npc that I have (full boat lv20 Arch mage) and wants to know how she can swear a pact with them.

Im not entirely against this idea but I wanna try and make it make sense first.

sharp owl
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That's not a lore question

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Mainly because

  1. Levels are a game mechanic, not something that exists within the fiction
  2. This channel is for what has been published in official lore, not what ifs
    You probably want #dm-discussion and/or #dm-world-building
twilit creek
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Question since gelatin takes the form of its container would a mimic that swallowed a gelatinous cube work like a mold or something else

sharp owl
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What?

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What does any of that have to do with D&D lore?

twilit creek
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It's the lore of how gelatinous cubes work with the world around them I was curious about it

sharp owl
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In which setting?

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(also gelatinous cubes aren't made of gelatin.....)

twilit creek
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Then what are the cubes made of

sharp owl
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I don't know, but it's not gelatin

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Gelatinous is an adjective describing their appearance and texture, not that they're made of gelatin

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Also what setting are you asking about?

twilit creek
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A dungeon like if a mimic were to eat the cube what would happen to both of them

sharp owl
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No, what D&D setting. Not what locale

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Do you know what "setting" means in the context of discussing lore?

twilit creek
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I'm using eberron

sharp owl
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Okay, so you're asking about gelatinous cubes in the context of Eberron?

twilit creek
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Yes

fresh mango
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Hi can anyone give me the lore on Gruumsh

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Like what's his whole story

jagged apex
round umbra
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Oh, he's left the server.

glacial forge
round umbra
jagged apex
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that depends on not only setting, but cultures, faiths, and situations

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AJ pickett did a very solid lore video on the topic, i will dm it to you

round umbra
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Cheers.

glacial forge
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Resurrection is part of the forgotten realms lore, there are people who can resurrect and so we would have to go through different locations and determine if they have someone or not if that’s what you are looking for

tardy wasp
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Just learned half-dragons aren’t actually half dragon anymore, just dragon mutants. What other weird changes to the lore did the new Monster Manual bring?

unkempt merlin
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? half dragons are definitely still half dragons

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how they become "half" dragon is, as always, still variable

feral lintel
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Born through magical rites involving the essences of dragons, half-dragons serve their creators and their own draconic whims. Most half-dragons are created by chromatic dragons who desire servants with some trace of their own might and grandeur.
Honestly, it still seems like either origin is plausible

jagged apex
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yeah, anyone who thinks they are removing previous lore is likely either misinterprating it or forgetting that the 2024 books are setting agnostic

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in fact one of the easiest ways to make half dragons historically has been arcane transformations, which this clearly is reffering specifically out of the many ways they can come about

feral lintel
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-# Half dragons being children of dragons and other creatures was just a wee bit more popular. Especially since it was a template

versed hare
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thats was the first possible explination in the 2014 Monster manual

feral lintel
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Ja, and the arcane ritual followed afta

When a dragon in polymorphed form mates with another creature, the union sometimes produces half-dragon offspring. A creature might also transform into a half-dragon as a result of a mad wizard’s spell or a ritual bath in dragon’s blood. In all these cases, the result is a creature that combines the essence of a dragon with the form of its original race. Regardless of their origins, all half-dragons have similar features and appearance, gaining special senses, resistance to destructive energy, and a breath weapon.

jagged apex
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more detailed and multiple possibilities were previously covered in fizban's which with the nature of the 2024 books easily can work in combination with the example in the 2024 MM

feral lintel
timid tendon
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If anything, emphasizing that half dragons can be mutants or ritual-wrought opens up more narrative possibilities in player's minds

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Because god knows how the "my dad was a bard who got it with a dragon" bit is done to death at this point

tardy wasp
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I’m also a little confused by the Elemental lizardfolk. I know it’s not all members of the species, but the art and stats I’ve found doesn’t suggest these individuals have become any more Elemental in nature than a Genie Warlock or Storm Sorcerer has.

I’m also intrigued by their connection to Elemental Earth, since their swamp/marshland adaptations would have suggested a stronger attraction to Water to me.

calm crest
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Dunno. It was a pretty abrupt shift not reflected in the lore prior to 2024.

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If anything, troglodytes had a closer association with elemental earth as they’re largely subterranean reptilian bipeds as opposed to amphibious ones.

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The patron deity of lizardfolk is Semuanya, who had the water domain in 3e. They’ve had no prior connection to elementals other than that tangential one.

Arguably, lizardfolk have a stronger historical connection to fiends via Sess'innek and the lizard kings.

unkempt merlin
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The primary thing to keep in mind is that npcs dont follow PC rules.

With that in mind, that's why only the geomancers and sovereigns are elemental. Their connection with elemental earth is enough to warrant it.

It's presumably earth because generally when it comes to the paraelements one of the constituent elements is treated as the "primary" one. For mud it's typically earth.

It's (at least most often that I can recall) the "first" element when viewing the great wheel in a counterclockwise direction that is the "primary"

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So mud is earth, ice is water, smoke is air, and magma is fire

jagged apex
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looking at their entries, seems mainly do to their places they inhabit as they are technically only partially amphibious so they have sort of connections to both water and land but spend the majority of their time on land at least with what we see in published materials, and it is more nuanced than simple the elemental plane of earth as it notes that is only technically the plane of earth "some forge powerful bonds with the Elemental Plane of Earth, granting them magical connections to the cycle of growth and rebirth." as it says, and this is simply an example of some devoid of any specific setting, establishing this is something that somewhere, potentially multiple places various lizardfolk may do this, it basically is connecting the idea of primal magic ala say a forest or the like with the elemental plane of earth cuz well those are things on land

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and in the 2024 books a lot of the creatures you see labeled as elementals are infused or otherwise connected with the energy of elemental planes, even if they are known to live on the prime, or are normally humanoids, this is even mentioned in the section describing the lizardfolk variants even before you get into them

feral lintel
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im somewhat expecting them to turn the NPC genasi into elementals now

jagged apex
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in short, for the revised 5e what makes something an elemental was expanded, now is not just natives or beings made of elemental energy, but also those with a strong connection to those planes or forces

naive root
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Where does the rule come from that vampires aren't allowed to enter a home without an invitation? When does something count as a home?

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I saw a video where someone simply labeled a pillow or declared a simple box Or thought about what would happen if the buildings were financed by a bank and were owned by the bank and onlypossesion by the user and the Vampire work for the bank

scarlet sigil
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Those are two different questions. The lore as for why vampires aren't allowed to enter a home/residence goes back to myth about vampires in history. As for what counts is more of a rules and DM interpretation question.

feral lintel
twilit creek
jagged apex
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and in the forgotten realms at least there are a few different, breeds for lack of a better term, of vampire clearly inspired and or based on various different cultural takes on the classic myth, not only using the most popular version of the concept, namely the eastern vampire and nosferatu https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Vampire#Varieties

crude blaze
twilit creek
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Is there a god of spirits and a god of torture

jagged apex
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what setting

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also spirits is a vague term in dnd to say the least

feral lintel
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and what do you mean by spirits

jagged apex
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but again this is assuming you are asking about the forgotten realms setting, if not, you need to specify which setting you are asking about else we are dramatically limited in what help/answers we can offer

twilit creek
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It's in eberron but I'm thinking of doing a multisetting story with a bunch of different gods as for spirits I mean souls and ghosts

jagged apex
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well eberron is dramatically different having it's own self-contained cosmology, but even then spirits is not traditionally something there is a god of in dnd, what you are describing is likely more often associated with the god of the dead

feral lintel
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Quori would also be pretty spirit like

jagged apex
twilit creek
jagged apex
# feral lintel Quori would also be pretty spirit like

eh, not really, they are more like dream entities they have a more spiritual appearance presumably do to their psionic nature in the material realm, unless i am mistaken, but given what they specified they would not fit that definition

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well there are many different gods and faiths in eberron, not all of them nessissarily associated with an entity

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they are more like concepts or philosophies in some cases

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who also is the god of greed

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though god in the way eberron use it again not necessarily an actual being or entity like other settings, unlike most other settings the existance of the gods as actual beings or entities last i checked is uncertain in eberron where as in like say the forgotten realms it is a known fact that they exist

twilit creek
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Is it possible to do a multiple setting campaign so gods could be real

jagged apex
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that is more a dm thing, they exist in the same multiverse, just eberron is technically hidden away and largely closed off from the rest, like massive hidden and complex demi plane of divine proportions

twilit creek
jagged apex
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honestly if something you are wondering about eberron that is not covered in official published materials, you could try asking the setting's creator, keith baker

broken merlin
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in FR, where is Leilon situated? It is described as being a coastal town with a harbour, but according to all the maps online, it's some distance away from the coast eastwards.

unkempt merlin
broken merlin
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I'm talking about the Sword Coast maps

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also, out of those few you mentioned, there's one that depicts it away from the coast

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two actually

unkempt merlin
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the 3 on the page are all snippets of sword coast maps

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the 1370 DR map is still on the coast, especially when considering the mere

unkempt merlin
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The mere is part of the coastline

broken merlin
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I don’t understand what you’re talking about, since it’s clearly visible that’s it is NOT on the coast. Just take a look how far Leilon from High Cliff.
And according to the map of the Sword Coast provided in Dragon of Icespire Peak, Leilon is precisely 10 miles off the coast

feral lintel
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Sword coast is referring to that whole area. not the direct coast itself

pallid flower
# twilit creek So who would be the god of the dead in eberron

For the most part, gods in Eberron either don’t exist or are vague on how they operate. The Sovereign Host and Dark Six may or may not exist, the only thing for certain is that there is divine energy. You can always tweak it and make them more concrete forces if you wish, or have them represented by an entity who claims to represent them, often powerful dragons if I remember correctly.

There’s another entity that may work, The Queen of the Dead. She’s more of a planar entity than a god, similar to an Archfey in a sense. She’s the most powerful being in Dollurh, the afterlife of Eberron.

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Adding your own Overlord or Daelkyr themed around ghosts or spirits would also fit the setting.

unkempt merlin
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the slight abstraction maps make for where something is "located" doesn't change that

unkempt merlin
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Cthonic generally

calm crest
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Or daemoniac, alternatively.
-# Granted they aren’t often called daemones anymore.

jagged apex
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to my knowledge it is a relatively recent term as with fiends demons and devils tend to take front and center more often than not

tropic nova
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Iirc a lot of it is new with 2024?

jagged apex
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also to be fair, Cthonic is more than just yugoloths, to quote the description in the 2024 phb, at least the part relevant to that fact, "Tieflings who have the chthonic legacy feel not only the tug of Carceri but also the greed of Gehenna and the gloom of Hades. Some of these tieflings look cadaverous. Others possess the unearthly beauty of a succubus, or they have physical features in common with a night hag, a yugoloth, or some other Neutral Evil fiendish ancestor." end quote

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those 3 are more or less the major categories in that regard, anything else technically is getting more speciifc and not everything always gets the same degree of info as some others, including things like adjectives

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yep, Cthonic is those of the lower planes of neutral evil, or ties to those forces

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demonic is chaotic evil and devil is lawful evil

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well, abyssal and infernal respectively, but you get the idea

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with what lore that exists it would at least be as accurate as saying something like daemonic or any other adjective you may think of to use in association with yugoloth, and the 2024 stuff is setting agnostic so seems to be the implied official adjective even if only recently introduced assuming there is no other prior one

calm crest
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Cthonic would presumably include Demodands as well, whereas daemoniac would be exclusive to Yugoloths.

jagged apex
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or something like lothian, as they are also known by the nickname of "loths"

calm crest
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Yeah, the exact nature of the fiendish remanifestation has been subject to repeated retcons across editions.

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At very least Devils, Yugoloths, and Demons.

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Likely Demodands as well.

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No, they’re like the three main branches of fiend, but from Carceri and associated with Chaotic Neutral Evil.

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Historically, they had extremely limited numbers relative to other fiends and had a Modron-esque death and promotion structure.

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Yes. Combination wardens and prisoners.

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They got reprinted in 5e Planescape.

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They expressly painfully and slowly reform in Carceri if killed in 2014 rules.

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So all varieties of Demodand (except their archfiend Apomp) are confirmed to have non-instantaneous revival for now.

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They’re prisoners of their plane.

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As for why it’s slower, it’s likely just because they’ve not been reprinted in 2024 yet.

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Concubi can derive from any lower plane. They also don’t have the ability to reform if killed.

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Concubi, the general term for both succubi and incubi, derived from Latin for “to lie with” rather than “under” or “on” respectively.

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The “lesser” fiends who don’t fall into one of the major categories aren’t tied to specific planes and don’t return to life if slain.

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Hordelings are connected to Hades, but haven’t been reprinted in 5e.

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Both succubi and incubi are resultantly less likely to unnecessarily risk their immortal lives rather than a fiend who is only mildly inconvenienced by death.

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Between the editions, Acheron and Pandemonium have definitely gotten the least love in terms of fiendish inhabitants.

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Acheron has rust dragons and achaierai, only one of which is even a fiend, and Pandemonium has howlers and the exceptionally obscure viltches.

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At least Hades has night hags and larvae to go with the Hordelings.

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Hordelings always seemed like an unfitting choice for the plane of Evil Neutrality. They’re more varied than Demons or Demodands, but are on the less Chaotic plane for some reason.

fervent laurel
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I just realised I never actually got this fact checked. Is this true about Astral Elves in the Spelljammer campaign setting?
"Astral Elves are a long line of elves that have lived in the Astral Plane long enough to have their very souls imbued with divine light"

worn axle
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Where'd you get that quote? That'll help

fervent laurel
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that sounds a lot more sarcastic than it was meant to in retrospect

worn axle
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The what?

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So you've made something up out of nowhere and want it "fact checked"?

fervent laurel
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I read a bit about Astral Elves before I originally wrote it but I was reading it back again just now and it didn't sound right so I wanted to make sure it was actually true

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basically, I don't remember the source I got it from, and I'm wanting to know if there is actually any source that states anything like that about Astral Elves, and what that source is

scarlet sigil
fervent laurel
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oh, thank you

round umbra
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Question - is it true that elves need 100 years before they reach sexual maturity and are able to reproduce?

clever path
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No

fervent laurel
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As far as I can see, Elves physically mature around the same time as humans, with their bodies essentially slowing their aging down to nothing by the age of 20, though elvish society don't consider elves to be adult until the age of roughly 100

clever path
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The book itself even says Ekves mature like humans. Other elves merely don’t regard each other as ‘mature’ before 100 years

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It’s like a 50 year old telling the 20 year old they ‘don’t know anything’

round umbra
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Oh, OK, that makes a lot of sense. I thought they were literally not physically mature until 100, which puts their whole race into question. How the hell do they survive such a violent world and have not gone extinct forever ago.

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Thanks.

fringe nymph
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Where do summoned things come from? Things like summoning a Greater Demon will bring it from the Abyss, but what about summoned elementals or familiars? If you were to dispel them with Dispel Evil and Good, would they have a home plane to return to? Would a Fiend Toad familiar be sent straight to the hells? Neither elementals nor familiars seem to come from somewhere. Elementals materializing from an area of air, earth, fire, or water, whereas familiars just appear

worn axle
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It depends

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An elemental would probs come from it's corresponding elemental plane

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A familiar is formed from magic itself

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The fey/fiend/celestial nature is the "motivating spirit" that you're imbuing your familiar with

fringe nymph
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So what happens if someone was to cast Dispel Evil and Good on a familiar? The spell can target celestials, fey, and fiends, then sends them back to their home plane.
The spell specifies that fey would get sent to the feywilds, but what about the celestial and fiendish familiarss?

round umbra
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Mount Celestia for example.

fringe nymph
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Do they exist in any way before they are summoned? If not, then would they even have a native plane if they've never existed there?

round umbra
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Of course they do.

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They do not get created out of ether just for the summoning itself.

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The creature exists in its native plane and you pluck it out of it. Some may be cooperative, others will want to kill you for it. Thus you need to contain/bind them.

fringe nymph
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Does this mean it's possible that the hells are full of fiendish seahorses waiting for someone to pluck them out as a familiar?

round umbra
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They're not waiting.

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They do their own thing until a mortal plucks them out.

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Thus the wanting to kill you part.

fringe nymph
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Familiars want to kill you?

round umbra
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They obey you, but if their alignment is evil, they might want to kill you, yes. They're just too cowardly/magically bound to do it.

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More complex summoning do not carry that magical compulsion.

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You need to cast additional spells to guarantee thraldom, but even then, you're basically enslaving powerful entities.

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As I said; imagine living your life, then you're summoned. If the summoner is smart, they'll contain you in a binding so you don't kill them. After that, they enslave you for a time.

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Even if you're 'good' you will dislike it.

worn axle
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You summon the essence of your familiar from a celestial, fiendish, or fey aligned plane but you shape their form composed of magic

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So no, there are fiendish seahorse ex-familiars in the lower planes or a menagerie of celestial black cats in the upper planes

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When a familiar is dismissed or dies, it's essence returns to its plane of origin and also returns to it's original form if it had one

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Some motivating essences are just that, formless essences of that planes energy

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When you summon a cat familiar with a fey nature, you're not summoning a cat from the feywild, your summoning a fey spirit and giving it a cat body made of shaped magic. Typically a wizard will summon/call out to the same essence each time, just changing the vessel it gives that essence

fringe nymph
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That makes sense yeah

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Where are you getting this info? I'd love to know more but it's probably better for me to read it myself rather than having you guys type it out for me

worn axle
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Bunch of places; FR wiki, 2014 and 2024 PHBs, previous PHBs, novels

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Like, I can't point you to one source unforts

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It comes from reading how the lore depicts these things

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It obvs varies from setting to setting to some degree, but is generally consistent

fringe nymph
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All good, thanks for all this :)

eager bay
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Is there a difference between hell and the abyss

scarlet sigil
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Yup. In a nutshell, the D&D multiverse is oriented around alignment. Hell and the Abyss are two sides of Evil. Hell represents lawful evil (mostly populated by devils) and the Abyss represents chaotic evil (mostly populated by demons).

grim siren
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The planescape setting and earlier editions of D&D give actual names to the term demons and devils which helps. In my experience, new players differentiate between the two. Because sometimes in popular culture they mean the same thing. Whereas in D&D they are diametrically opposed.

Devils or lawfully evil fiends are called The Baatezu (Baah-tez-oo)

Demons or chaotically evil fiends are called The Tanar'ri (Ta-nar-re)

calm crest
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Demons are infinite in number and variety, but are poorly organized. Devils have far more limited numbers, but are strategic and rigidly hierarchical.

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Likewise, the Abyss has an infinite number of layers, each with increasingly bizarre and inhospitable contents, whereas the Nine Hells of Baator is just that—nine layers organized to serve the interests of Asmodeus.

grim siren
#

And in the middle are Daemons neutral evil beings from Carceri, Hades, and Gehenna. Called Yugoloths (You-go-loths)

These are conspiratorial fiends that act as mercenaries in the blood war between Tanar'ri and Baatezu.

calm crest
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The Yugoloths are largely focused on Gehenna specifically, having a slightly Lawful bent to their covetous and mercenary ways.

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Less famous groups of fiends include the Demodands of Carceri, iconoclastic and bitter prisoners/wardens trapped in the Tartarean depths, and the Hordelings (or Hordlings) of Hades, an army of endlessly varied fiends.

prisma siren
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"Demon" includes obyriths and loumaras in addition to the tanar'ri IIRC

grim siren
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Demon does include those things. Obyriths are Loumaras it is important to note that Obyriths are practically extinct. With the exception of few who have been sealed away or a very small number who have survived to this day.

Loumaras are a strange situation is they are not born from the abyss itself. They are more closely related physically to ghosts and spirits than actual physical creatures. They are demonic and chaotically evil outsiders. But their relationship with other demon types is very small.

Tanar'ri are the natives of the Abyss. If you interact with a demon. From a mane to the demon Lords chances are it's Tanar'ri.

calm crest
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Similarly to Obyriths, the Nine Hells have the proto-Devils known only as the Ancient Baatorians. The only extant example is the nupperibo which continues to spontaneously form from larvae not made into lemures.

grim siren
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We do know of at least one obyrith who is the most likely to be interacted with. Pazuzu the corruptor delights in corrupting mortals. And surprisingly is in good ish terms with the dukes of hell and personally knows asmodues. Some believe it was this Obyrith that lead to the corruption of asmodues who legends say might have been an angel.

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Pazuzu is indirectly responsible for the creation of the Abyss itself for he is believed to be one of the chief manipulators of Tharizdun.

eager bay
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So basically: the abyss is infinite, chaotic evil, and full of demons. Hell is finite, lawful evil, and full of devils. Then Gehenna, Hades, and Carceri are their own planes with neutral evil in betweens

calm crest
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Aside from the technicality that Hells’ individual layers are infinite in volume, but finite in number, yes, that is correct.

eager bay
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Got it

wanton cedar
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Great explanation 🤙🤙

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By the way: can anybody suggest me books on dnd lores? I have already the one on dragons

grim siren
wanton cedar
round umbra
wanton cedar
jagged apex
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like with demons there are 3 different kinds

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and beyond that countless other kinds that we don't even have lore on, the specific species of demons we have in the lore are technically, least last i checked, only the most popular and well known, given the chaotic nature of the abyss and that it is constantly creating new demons, be they new in so far as they just came into existence or are the first of their kind

jagged apex
# wanton cedar General I’d say

for setting agnostic stuff, a good starting point are the 2024 books, and for giants you also have "bigby's glory of the giants" and you got the 5e bundles of the 5e itteration of planescape and spelljammer which are made up of 3 books each

eager bay
#

How does one traverse from one layer of hell to another

calm crest
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Depends on the given layers, but the River Styx is the go-to.

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Tiamat guards the entrance from Avernus to the deeper layers, which are increasingly secretive and more difficult to access.

jagged apex
eager bay
jagged apex
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to quote the specific section "In Baator, streams of blood from the unending battles swelled the Styx in the first layer of Avernus. Tributaries and branches beyond count trickled through all the lower layers as well, but the main course of the Styx connected to the fifth level of Stygia, where it cut a channel through the great frozen sea. It was the only open water there, but was choked with icebergs and filled with sahuagin and fiendish sharks that attacked the boats. A little-known offshoot ran through the trenches of the ninth later, Nessus, into a pool known as the Forgotten Lake. However, it was unknown how to get here, and some said the branch did not exist at all." cited from the following sources "manual of the planes 3rd edition", "dungeon master's guide for 5th edition (2014)", "manual of the planes 1st edition", and "fiendish codex 2: tyrants of the nine hells"

hybrid loom
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Hi! I was curious about sorcerers's magic. I know there are game mechanics in place but lore wise, what happens to a sorcerer that tries to will their magic and tap into more power than they could handle? Do they burn out?

jagged apex
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it varies

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but a generic sort of setting agnostic way to think about it is they have a natural knack or deeper connection to magic in their very blood compared to say a wizard

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the magic is not necessarily from them like a battery, and far as i know any sort of "burn out" can happen to any spellcaster in mind, soul, and sometimes body, is part of why raw magic is so dangerous is too much for mortals to really use safely

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at least in some settings is that way, like your innate magic gives you a sort of innate connection to magic than other arcane casters, at least that is my understanding, the 2024 books' flavor text and "lore" seems to lean more into what you were thinking of, but i am not sure if that is intentional or not

worn axle
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Both are seemingly limitless as far as where they can connect to, but this isn't a hard rule

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Both Sigil and the Infinite Staircase, as well as other inter-planar hubs such as the World Serpent Inn, have connected to planes and demiplanes and realms that are typically seen as unreachable by all other means

round umbra
jagged apex
round umbra
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Thus theoretically exceed her 9th spell-slot max?

jagged apex
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no, that is not what that means

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what it means is how mystra changed the rules of magic after karsus' folly

round umbra
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I don't get it. It is stated they're able to use raw magic. Raw magic is there, not from the Weave.

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If they get a direct tap of raw magic, that means they're not limited by anything Mystra do/says no?

jagged apex
#

as i said think of the weave as a sort of filter for means of it being focused

round umbra
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Yes... but I'm not talking about the Weave. I'm talking about the reference to Raw Magic, which does not -stem- from the Weave.

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"Raw magic was manifested in the form of the Weave, but it was present even in dead-magic zones where the Weave was absent.[1] If the Weave were to be damaged or destroyed, raw magic would escape, causing disruption to existing magic and striking magical conductors in the vicinity, causing widespread havoc."

#

Raw magic can stem from the Weave, but it also exists independently of it.

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Thus, if Bob the great Mage learned to use raw magic, and doesn't rely on the Weave for his spells, Mystra can't do a thing about him logically, no?

jagged apex
round umbra
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OK, I give up; you're not reading anything I say.

#

G'day.

jagged apex
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"bob" would not really be able to do so, at best he could only use a fraction

round umbra
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Mariner — 2:13 PM
All spellcasters on Toril who learned (or relearned) how to use magic after the Wailing Years[14] and until the full restoration of the Weave in 1487 DR,[15] learned how to use raw magic to cast their spells.

That's literally what is copied from the link you just provided about raw magic...

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"learned how to use raw magic to cast their spells."

jagged apex
#

perhaps someone else can explain it better as i feel you are misunderstanding what i am trying to say or else i am misunderstanding what you are trying to ask

#

but for the whole idea of spells beyond what we know as 9th level, you want specifically "epic magic"

round umbra
# jagged apex perhaps someone else can explain it better as i feel you are misunderstanding wh...

The link you provided says with the incident of the Wailing Years (1385 DR) up to 1487 (so a century) mages learned how to use Raw Magic to empower their spells.

Raw Magic exists independently of the Weave.

These mages, do not rely on Mystra, and the Weave to cast magic. They are able to -bypass- them both.

The reference does not say these Mages 'dabbled' but rather that they learned to use it with competence to cast their spells as ordinarily.

Thus my question is, since they're able to bypass Mystra and the Weave, because of their competence with Raw Magic, then are they also able to bypass Mystra's 9th level spells limitation?

Because the spells cast (epic magic) are not done through her, or her Weave. It is outside her sphere of influence or authority.

jagged apex
#

is technically still possible, but drastically difficult, to the point it is near impossible

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she literally has influence over all magic in the forgotten realms setting

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the weave is mainly the main force by which it is used and as an extension of her, that she influences it

round umbra
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"Mystryl was most notably known as the being who embodied the Weave, the primary source of magic in the cosmos."

Embodied the Weave.

But these mages are able to tap into raw magic -outside- of the Weave.

Do you understand the logic I'm trying to employ now?

jagged apex
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but that is not the only means she does her job, do to the nature of how gods work and her portfolio

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it is like how a god of war is tied to the very act of war

round umbra
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Aha, so she has authority/portfolio outside the Weave, over raw magic that is independent of the Weave as well?

jagged apex
jagged apex
round umbra
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OK, that answered my question, thank you.

jagged apex
round umbra
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I thought she only had dominion over the Weave Magic.

jagged apex
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her portfolio is "Magic, spells, the Weave"

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so magic itself, spells in general, and specifically the weave all at the same time, not just the weave

deft trout
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AFAIK, "raw magic" comes from energy leaking into the material from the transitive, inner and outer planes. The Weave is a world-wide ordering of those chaotic and clashing energies so they're not as dangerous

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"Raw magic" in this case is something akin to saying "raw ore" - untreated - rather than something distinct, like how magic missile uses "pure magic energy."

grim siren
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Yea the Weave is a filter. Essentially.

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Raw Magic Manifests on Toril from the weave. Spellcasters being able to cast Raw Magic during the 15th century was because the Weaver (Mystra) was super dead.

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Being able to cast with Raw Magic because the Weave was busted isn't accessing a different form of magic.

Its like this.

Being a weave spellcaster is like learning to repair a car you bought from the store. Its regulated, its controlled.

Using Raw Magic, is making a car yourself. Its not impossible, but it is a hell of a lot more dangerous, and now the weave is back, regulations are back.

deft trout
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Sorcerers are a bit weird, in that, unlike other mages, they seem to have a well of innate magic other mages do not - yet they are still affected by things like anti-magic fields that remove the ambient mana and prevent arcane magic from working

grim siren
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Dead Magic Zones aren't places where the Better Raw Magic beats out the weave. Its a tear in the fliter.

grim siren
deft trout
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Mages of all kinds are just weird. It's like the Dark Sun's question all over again.

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"Do sorcerers and warlocks cause withering?"

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Kinda makes one wonder about how a bards' True Name style magic interacts with the various background magical fields

crude sparrow
#

Would it make sense for a Goliath NPC to be part of the Stewards of the throne? Or for that to be a title granted to a Goliath PC for doing something good for them?

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I know the Stewards are a Giant-Orginization, and I am a little unsure if the golliaths are close enough to be included

eager bay
grim siren
grim siren
crude sparrow
round umbra
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Like Ao, she's limited to a sphere, no?

deft trout
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Technically, Mystra's control is restricted to just Realmspace and her domain, though she might be keeping tabs and send some of her angels or Chosen after you.

Don't forget that one of her subordinate gods is the god of divinations and if you do something that will eventually mess with her dominion, she will know, and will take steps

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Or if yo'ure just evil and she can nip you in the bud, she will

grim siren
#

Yes Mystra is tied to her sphere of influence, namely her domain and Toril. Mystra would have very limited control in a place like the hells.

Lets say you get to Hell to learn 10th level epic magic. Even if the powers of Hell let you learn it. And let you escape. Upon returning to Toril the magic would not function correctly.

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Here is what would happen should you make an attempt.

One's first attempt at casting epic spells would always be a failure. Moreover, they would always fail for all casters except those casters who had achieved the pinnacle of prior arcane power, and were among the most intelligent and wisest of their rank.

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A second spellcaster, who must be almost as experienced and intelligent, could be present to act as an 'anchor', by using another spell or spells to link their will, mind, and life energy to the main caster. Without the help of an anchor, unintended wild magic results would ensue.

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Casting such high-level magic was mentally and physically taxing; the casters involved would lose some small measure of their health and forget a few of their memorized spells. There was also a significantly high chance that they would lose their grasp of their greatest abilities, forcing them to spend some time reacquiring their previous skills and rank before making another attempt.

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Mystra and Azuth were aware of all casting attempts, and would afflict all casters involved with feeblemindedness (as in the feeblemind spell), as well as remove the written spell from existence, if they considered the casting to be for purely selfish and/or malevolent ends, that is, running counter to the free and individualistic development of magic.

deft trout
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Am I wrong in remembering that the limit on epic level magic was mostly put in place because of a new edition coming out and the devs capping it at nine, which then got written into lore as Mystra restricting it? I find that a bit amusing, tbh.

grim siren
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Not a new edition but it was codified around the end of 2e

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There is only One (1) person who can cast epic magic with little repercussions that is the Magister.

pearl hinge
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She still has limitiations though. Like Elven magic she can't affect, because that belongs to Corellon Larethian as his domain. And Magical Artifacts that can produce Epic Magic.

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If she were to do so. Then she would risk the wrath and potential war against him.

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The only magic that would be affected by being in an different plane is divine magic. Because of the vast distance away from your God or Gods.

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It would be weaker or stronger depending on the area they were in too.

grim siren
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According to Ed Greenwood (take as you will)

Corellon can block some uses of high magic, by arrangement with Mystra. For the same reasons: to stop mortals trying to upset the entire applecart, or oppress/slaughter lots of rival wielders of magic.

  • Greenwood's Grotto q4ed channel 3-3-2023
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With most uses of High Magic being recorded thousands of years before the ban even happened these days corelleon has a vested interest in going along with the ban. Considering elves left unchecked sundered the world.

deft trout
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For a god of freedom and chaos, CL loves his rules and restrictions

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/s

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I mean, Shar's shadow weave is likewise restricted

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At this point, it kinda comes across as cold war era mutually assured destruction style stuff

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No one gets nukes anymore

grim siren
#

Like Gunpowder it's an in-the- world reason to smack down munchkin players.

deft trout
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Which is funny because they brought back gunpowder

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though for some reason they haven't actually enabled any class with the ability to USE it well

grim siren
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Yes and no. Smokepowder exists it's a different substance. It is difficult to manufacture and requires enchanting.

pearl hinge
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Unless you're a Griff.

deft trout
#

didn't glittergold give gnomes blackpowder too? I vaguely recal something about an island of them in the Realms with the recipe

grim siren
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That's smokepowder

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And it's Gond

deft trout
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does the 2024 book specifiy the difference? I don't see one at a quick glance. No mention of smoke-, gun- or black-powder that I've found

grim siren
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Smokepowder is FR specific so it wouldn't be in the core books.

deft trout
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Ehhh... at this point, I'm assuming its regular blackpowder, because otherwise starting characters wouldn't be able to afford to use a pistol if smokepowder is expensive to make.

#

guns were generally banned /. kept rare, since no one wants a firearm revolution, but since they're now core...

pearl hinge
#

Since there are Sarrukhs that are still alive. Their magic is different from the ones we used today. Since the magic we use was crafted after theirs from the Netherscrolls. So Mystra might not be able to stop their magic, right.

deft trout
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I'd say that Mystra can absolutely stop their magic, given how the weave and mystra's connection to it works

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but that's something the GM might allow based on rule of cool

grim siren
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Considering the one legend is that Mystra's predecessor made the scrolls she could more than likely stop it.

deft trout
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and/or plot needs

pearl hinge
deft trout
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The Sarrukh's magic being different sounds more like the difference between a sorcerer's magic, a wizard's and a bard's magic - all need the Weave, but they approach spells differently

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So, the Sarrukh have a special Magic User class, but don't bypass using the Weave

pearl hinge
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Sarrukh could literally make new species enslaved to them with their magic. If a Sarrukh was in front of a Yuan-Ti today. The Yuan-Ti would obey their every command, because it was breed into them on the genetic level.

deft trout
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yes, and?

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I fail to see how that bypasses the Weave

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I do believe its canon that you can find a scroll of epic level magic and it'd bypass the restrictions, but even ancient spellcasters from before the restriction can't do anything about it. I vaguely remember there being a novel about that plot as well.

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The.. second or third brimstone angel story?

pearl hinge
# deft trout The.. second or third brimstone angel story?

Well one back then it was still Abeir-Toril. Not Toril we know as today. There is little information we know about that era. The weave could have or not have existed back then. But the World Serpent did. Who as we all know had fragmented to give Aspects/Gods to it's followers. Examples Jazirian and Ahriman/Asmodeus who founded the Law of Three and Order. Good, Neutral, and Evil of the great wheel to the Multiverse. Primordials existed before the gods, in a state of proto matter made. Plus it is hinted that the Serpent that gave Vecna his power in trying to overthrow the Lady of Pain in Die!Vecna!Die! is part of this World Serpent. The Serpent is thought to be an alias for a mysterious godlike entity named Mok'slyk. Which sounds like Merrshaulk that Yuan-Ti worship.

The Serpent appeared in a Greyhawk core adventure series called the Windows to the Serpent's Soul. It consisted of four adventure modules: COR4-01 Shedding Scales, COR5-08 Clipping Wings, COR6-08 Catching Breath, and COR7-15 Taking Flight.

In this series, the Serpent is described as a primordial force of magic, tricked by the gods into assuming the form of a massive serpent which the gods petrified so it could steal its power. The gods could not completely destroy its form, so they broke it down into chunks which became planets, upon which life grew from the Serpent's energy and learned to use magic. Something in Vecna's heritage or destiny gave him a special connection to the Serpent. Which could mean this World Serpent is the source of the Sarrukh's magic.

#

"Paet vi har skylkning."
— Saying in the language of the Ancient Brethren
"We have faith in the Serpent."
— Translation
The Serpent spoke to Vecna while he was still mortal, and revealed to him great secrets powerful magic, including the path to lichdom, the location of Citadel Cavitus, and the true nature of beings including the Lady of Pain and the dark powers of Ravenloft. This is from Die!Vecna!Die!

deft trout
#

I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding what the weave is and how arcane magic works.

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Arcane magic taps into ambient magic field. The Weave is a glorified filter controlling the magic field on faerun

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It doesn't matter what your ancient nagic techniques are, they must use the weave while in the realms

pearl hinge
# deft trout It doesn't matter what your ancient nagic techniques are, they must use the weav...

And you're misunderstanding I am calling this World Serpent who was worshipped by the Yuan-Ti and Sarrukhs as the primordial embodiment of magic who predated the multiverse was the source of their magic. Way before Mystryl/Mystra's birth. The very embodiment of all forms of magic, including that of the gods, who Vecna for example Who attained the power of a Greater God and more from this Serpent. He couldn't comprehend it and challenged the Lady of Pain in Sigil. Who literally killed a Greater God of Portals Aobar and his entirely worshippers as well in an instant. The only reason why adventurers were able to defeat Vecna in the first place. Was due to him focusing most of his magical power in holding off the Lady of Pain from kicking him out of Vecna. Who later transitioned 2rd Edition to 3rd Edition.

deft trout
#

Doesn't matter how old the serpent is. All spellcasting on Faerun goes through mystra

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Divine magic? Uses mystra's weave

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Only stuff like monk ki bypasses it

pearl hinge
deft trout
#

Again, doesn't matter. The only way to bypass the weave on faerun is to use shar's shadow weave, which has the same restrictions

pearl hinge
# deft trout Again, doesn't matter. The only way to bypass the weave on faerun is to use sha...

I'm saying this Serpent can. Because it is much more powerful. The Serpent is like Ao, but not restricted by his role like it is. It affected the center of very center of the Multiverse by letting Vecna try to reshape the very fabric of all totality in his own image if he wasn't stopped. The Lady of Pain even thought about letting gods enter Sigil to try stop Vecna. Which would include Mystra.

The Lady of Pain and a coterie of her dabus servants
stand before the Armory, staring mutely as many of the
most powerful individuals and entities remaining in
Sigil attempt the invisible magical ward set up around
the fortress by Vecna, and for the most part, fail. Though
legend suggests that the Lady of Pain once belonged to
the Ancient Brethren, among whom the Serpent also
numbers, she still faces a quandary with Vecna's presence. The longer Vecna remains, the more unsteady the
celestial ring under Sigil becomes. Should that fulcrum
finally collapse, so also will the current shape and order
of the multiverse. In fact, permanent damage has
already occurred. But, should the Lady loose the wards
that prevent other gods entry, so that they might put a
stop to Vecna's machinations, their very presence would
bring down the multiverse that much sooner. In like
manner, should the Lady reveal herself in her true form
in all its aching majesty to do battle with the waxing
god, the multiverse would come undone like a mobile
whose strings are simultaneously severed. So, she waits.
Heroes have many options, including turning around
and leaving, approaching the Lady of Pain, intermingling with the army, approaching the Armory directly
(which probably includes intermingling with the army
first), or just standing and watching for a while.

jagged apex
# pearl hinge I'm saying this Serpent can. Because it is much more powerful. The Serpent is li...

funny thing is, most gods at least those who are only worshiped in one setting, rely on that worship and setting for their power, so unless i am mistaken any gods trying to help if they were allowed into sigil would likely be greatly reduced in power since the planes are distinct from specific settings in most cases, one reason vecna was so powerful was the way he attained godhood and how even as a god he still conducts himself more like a wizard/lich in his plans than what one might expect from a god who was never mortal, like say shar or selune to use some examples from forgotten realms

#

also if memory serves in sigil vecna in his new state of divinity at the time since he basically glitched his way into sigil he and the lady of pain were effectively at a stalemate and that is why the adventure in that story line requires a group of adventurers to tip things in favor of the multiverse and against vecna, which is scary to think about cuz like most gods and their divine realms, to my knowledge the lady of pain traditional has total control over sigil

#

to clerify, i am not saying she is a god, but that to my knowledge her control over sigil is similar to a god's over their divine realm

pearl hinge
# jagged apex to clerify, i am not saying she is a god, but that to my knowledge her control o...

Not really a divine realm. She can literally manipulate all of reality, since Sigil is the focal point and literal center of the Multiverse. She killed a Greater God and his followers in an instant. All except one who literally initiated himself to that religion due to books lying about. Well Vecna was empowered by an Primordial Eldritch Serpent who embodies all magic, even that of Gods. The rules were different back then. Gods and Primordials fought each other to the death in the Dawn War which was before. Back then how Gods existed was different, they didn't need worshippers in that era. Ao made laws so they would stop fighting. Then changed them again so the Gods would care about their worshippers and need them too. Primordials don't need worship to exist, due to their unique existence being more material elemental.

clever path
#

Unless I’m mistaken the Lady of Pain is not a ‘God’ technically but still a being above nearly every good that isn’t Ao. She smacked Vecna (he was backed by a primordial) and he went from intermediate to lesser deity instead of being deleted

#

He got lucky that he survived honestly.

pearl hinge
clever path
#

Even funnier. But yea she was impressed he didn’t just stop existing entirely and said ‘congrats. Now get the hell out of my sight before I do it again’

jagged apex
# pearl hinge Not really a divine realm. She can literally manipulate all of reality, since Si...

to my understanding he was not empowered by the serpent, rather it taught him magic, as it understood it, "The Serpent spoke to Vecna while he was still mortal, and revealed to him great secrets powerful magic, including the path to lichdom, the location of Citadel Cavitus, and the true nature of beings including the Lady of Pain and the dark powers of Ravenloft" cited as being from " The Secret History of Vecna, Dragon #348 (Oct 2006), p.32" and "Die Vecna Die! (2000), p.57."

#

so more so was he was given information that likely few if any other mortals or even gods in the multiverse have access to

#

is like being told the cheat codes for a video game when like 99.99% of others playing the game or in the game have 0 clue about such info

jagged apex
pearl hinge
jagged apex
#

it was vecna's own magic, just he was using knowledge given by the serpent

#

to me at least, that is very distinct

pearl hinge
jagged apex
#

counter point, why would he?

#

giving information and giving them information over your own power itself are two very different things

#

besides if it was the serpent's own magic, i imagine they would say as such rather than various powerful and otherwise not widely known information

#

the fact that they don't simply say specifically "the serpent's magic" is worth keeping in mind

#

especially with the examples the given the only one i know to be related to the serpent itself in any way is the lady of pain, do the ancient borther thing

clever path
#

To be fair you are also quoting the paraphrased wiki no?

jagged apex
#

plus this seems to be only theory and even then it says "Another theory is that the Serpent is not a real being, but rather a personification of the raw power of magic itself." scited as being from "The Secret History of Vecna, Dragon #348" (Oct 2006), p.32

grim siren
#

This Serpent is not even verified as to being an actual being. The most recent source on the Serpent grants equal consideration that the Serpent is a godlike entity, a vestige of just raw magic, or the insane manifestation of Vecna's ambition.

Dragon Maganize #348 p.32

jagged apex
#

yeah objectively there is no concrete information this entity exists and could partially be part of some form of madness of vecna's

grim siren
#

It even suggests that the cult of Vecna sees the last option as a threat to the god's worship as they kill people who spread that rumor.

jagged apex
#

and again, specifically knowing how to use this "entity's magic" is much more specific than the actual info we seem to be given

#

again if they give us examples of some of this knowledge, why would they not note that given it clearly would be arguably the most important especially if this entity is real

grim siren
#

And in all things Specific beats general. Specifically in the Forgotten Realms Mystra and her servitors control magic.

That is their thing. Unless otherwise stated that beats the general of vague cosmic entity.

When attaching Sarrukh, Weaver, Serpent, Lady of Pain stuff that is intentionally vague we tread into "I have a bigger god killing force-field that kills god killing force rays."

pearl hinge
#

The Serpent is implied to be the World Serpent. The Primordial who was worshipped by the Sarrukh and their slaves in their empire during the Days of Thunder. The Serpent is thought to be an alias for a mysterious godlike entity named Mok'slyk. Which sounds like Merrshaulk the demon snake god that Yuan-Ti worship. The World Serpent is currently Fragmented. Giving way to Aspects who are Asgorath/Io, Essylliss, Jazirian, Ahirman/Asomedus, M'daess, Semuanya, Shekinester, Ssharstrune, Sss'thasine'ss, and Dendar the Elder Evil who swallowed the Sun in the Dawn War and now who eats Nightmares of every being, including those nightmares of gods.

jagged apex
#

like i may just be being nitpicky, but i feel that subtle difference is rather significant despite how minor it might be

#

and besides things like the serpent being a guise of asmodeus is specifically noted as a theory cuz there is not any confirmation that it is fact

#

far as i know "the serpent" and "the world serpent" are different concepts entirely

#

as the serpent's lore is as noted on the wiki as setting specific "The key to the topic is while information is presented in the article as theoretical possibilities or what might be true, in officially published Greyhawk-specific material, the Serpent is shown as an individual entity taking specific action outside the presence of Vecna.
However, there is absolutely no evidence for any of these conjectures beyond mere speculation."

#

the fact that the world serpent's history and what not does not seem to make any mention of the world of greyhawk, vecna, or "the serpent" supports the idea they are seperate, all be it similar

#

remember, this channel is for what is described in published materials, homebrew and your own head canon are not "what is" as far as published materials is concerned

#

so i feel you are either confusing the two entities/concepts, or taking someone's homebrew as canon published material

#

fun fact, in the forgotten realms, dendar is called "nidhogg" by the ancient rus

#

complete with the belief of gnawing at the roots of the world tree

pearl hinge
# jagged apex the fact that the world serpent's history and what not does not seem to make any...

Mok’slyk is another alias known for the Serpent is a acronym for Merrshaulk. A Yuan-Ti God worshipped in the Forgotten Realms, before being absorbed by Sseth as his Aspect. Primordials can influence and have presence on others worlds like Gods. Plus Jazirian and Ahriman founded law and order and the three alignments of Good, Neutral, and Evil. Who are also Aspects of the World Serpent.

Serpents af Law
Being a Treatise on the Cosmic Serpents, the Birth of
the Outer Planes, and the the Fall of Ahriman.
The universe, at its birth, was little more than swirling
chaos. A primordial soup of infinite possibilities, the
cosmos was both everything and nothing. Through
some unknown process, forms coalesced out of the
chaos, including the planes themselves and those
beings later known as gods. Some of these newborn
powers reveled in the chaos, while others abhorred it.
The conflict between these two groups, between Law
and Chaos, defined the planes and the laws that they would obey.
The mightiest of Law's champions were the Twin
Serpents. These Cosmic Serpents expressed the duality of Law, and were unstoppable when they worked
together. Jazirian, winged and feathered, dedicated
herself to the cause of good, while Ahriman, scaled
and forked of tongue, embraced the darker path of
evil. Despite their differences, they were first and foremost agents of Law.

jagged apex
#

though i do personally believe the serpent of law origin to be true, i again must say officially in published materials that is but a theory and not concrete fact

#

plus being an acronym is not really anything of significance "an abbreviation formed from the initial letters of other words and pronounced as a word" being the definition of an acronym, besides i am not aware of any published materials that specifically note that fact

#

you in theory could make Mok'slyk an acronym of a varriety of gods, some potnetially with no relation or connection what so ever

#

does not make it true though

#

simply put
"The Serpent" =/= "The World Serpent"

pearl hinge
# jagged apex simply put "The Serpent" =/= "The World Serpent"

Mok'slyk is the name the Serpent in the world of Greyhawk. Worshipped by Vecna and his people the Ur-Flann. There's also the Nether Scrolls which are called the "The Golden Skins of the World Serpent" during the Days of Thunder. Where else they could've gotten this magical knowledge than their Primordial God the World Serpent. Which they wrote in Sarrukhar not Draconic. So Arthindol, an Sarrukh Lich also known as the Terraseer helped the Netherese translate them. The World Serpent could have spoken to them in the Language Primeval. I believe which to be the language in which the magic of the creation of the multiverse is written from. Vecna spoke it.

"Paet vi har skylkning."
— Saying in the language of the Ancient Brethren
"We have faith in the Serpent."
— Translation

Plus I doubt the primitive brains of humans during the Days of Thunder would do magic during that time.

The Language Primeval is a form of raw, unfiltered, primal form of magic that predates even the overdeities. —College of Wizardry; Pages #43-44.

“The Language Primeval, a surpassingly powerful magical grammar, was spoken by the Ancient Brethren, the Elders, and other semimythical races when all the worlds were young or yet unborn. As a confidant of the Serpent, Vecna has some knowledge of this purely magical tongue, and so he recorded a spell of uncommon power.” —Die Vecna Die Page #2. Referecing Age Before Ages and the Days of Thunder.

And Orcus used The Last Word to kill even Greater Gods simply uttering it. It would kill mortals who knew if it they weren't a God. So it must be from the Language Primeval too. Though he had no chance of defeathing the Lady of Pain with it.

Plus when the Lady of Pain transitioned 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition. “Thus, the Lady of Pain, a confidant or perhaps even peer to the Serpent, speaks in the Language Primeval (the language of the Serpent and its Ancient Brethren, in which the three words of Creation Once Spoken were uttered). Uttering her words, while standing in the crux of the multiverse known as Sigil, she reorders reality. Uttering her words, the only words spoken by her in the last several millennia, she shores up Sigil's wards against entry by deities who attempt to "cheat" as Vecna did. Uttering her words, she attempts to shore up the sum of all creation, also called superspace.” —Die Vecna Die Page #151.

Plus Jazirian and Ahriman founding the great wheel with the Outlands being the center of it all, forming the Multiverse Great Wheel Cosmology. Which helps support that the Serpent and The World Serpent being the same entity. Is a being of immeasurable, unfathomable primordial power – basically the source of magic itself.

jagged apex
#

again, the serpent and the world serpent are not the same entity at least in published materials nothing suggests that let alone confirms it

#

least nothing i am aware of

#

plus again they each are specific to their own setting

pearl hinge
jagged apex
#

never said they couldn't

#

but to my knowledge we have no knowledge of these entities actually existing outside of their respective settings or being involved in a actual manner and neither are even confirmed to be definitively real, let alone the same entity

#

and by these entities i mean specifically "the serpent" and "the world serpent", just to be clear

pearl hinge
# jagged apex and by these entities i mean specifically "the serpent" and "the world serpent",...

Here's the last bit. The Ancient Brethen are archetypal entities. For the example. The Lady of Pain is the entire personification of Pain in the multiverse.

" Only I perceive the husks, slowly swelling and turning emerald and gold and ruby and jet;
only I see them oozing yellow ichor and starting to throb like hearts.
Thus are the four Pains spread through the multiverse— agony, anguish, misery, and despair—to
ripen and burst and bring low the mighty and the meek alike. From whence they come, I do not
remember. It may be that I create them myself, or that they rise from some hidden place deeper and
blacker than the bottom layer of the Abyss, where smoke hangs thick as rock and death is the sweetest memory.
I can only say there is a void in my chest where I once had a heart, and from this emptiness
springs all the suffering in the multiverse. " —Pages of Pain Pages #1-2

The World Serpent would be Ouroboros, It would embody a lot of different things in DnD Cosmology. Jazirian (Good) in Celestia, Shekinester (Neutral) in the Outlands, and Ahriman/Asmodeus as (Evil) in the Nine Levels of Baator. Who represented multiple alignments as aspects of the World Serpent. Though Jazirian and Ahriman/Asmodeus would be Lawful due to them founding Law and Order out of the Chaos of the Multiverse. Magic would also be one as the Serpent for the World Serpent. Plus both are said to be part of the Ancient Brethren.

Plus there's the World Serpent Inn is linked to all of the Multiverse too opposed to just Sigil. And Mitchifer the Owner said The World Serpent Inn is speculated to be on power of Overgod or higher and a fragment of the World Serpent too.

teal rock
#

Can gith even gain muscle?

pearl hinge
jagged apex
#

that and the majority of their might is psionic or martial which in their case often means technique, nothing in their lore suggests one can't become more muscular, they are still living beings of flesh and bone after all

#

like sure they may look like a maciated human, but does not mean they are anywhere near as weak

jagged apex
pearl hinge
#

They wouldn't want their food to fight back.

round umbra
#

What's the lore-explanation for our characters recovering from all wounds after long-rest (HP.)

Are our adventurer characters special, or that's in-universe thing applicable to all?

versed hare
#

its more of a rules thing that HP is not a 1 to 1 translation of injuries but an overal measure of your ability to keep going

calm crest
#

Hit Points are an abstraction of morale, luck, and stamina rather than capacity for bodily injury.

jagged apex
#

at least unless i missed something, even then, those where their two major roles, being able to be used as food like other sentient humanoids, would have just been an added bonus

calm crest
#

Oortlings are an example of a species manipulated to be an illithid food source.

#

Very different from the Gith, and very much incapable of threatening a mind flayer.

eager bay
#

If a person dies and their soul goes to hell is there any way that they can physically leave hell or are they trapped without the aid of high level magic

jagged apex
#

they travel from one plane to another if they have the necessary means be it spells, a portal, ect.. though in regards to the prime material plane that is the only place they can't really go normally of their own free will and have to be summoned there

#

this is covered, even mechanically, in the introductory section of "Morte's Planar Parade" which is one of the 3 books making up the 5e planescape bundle, "Planescape: Adventures in the Multiverse"

#

specifically in the part about petitioners as that is what a mortal soul that passes on to the afterlife is, be it the domain of their god or just one of the planes of existance such as the nine hells for example

eager bay
#

Got it

round umbra
#

I'm an evil bastard, I know I'm heading to Hells or Abyss, how I guarantee I remain?

jagged apex
#

plus that is not really an issue

#

like in dnd to my knowledge if you are reincarnated even outside of the spell reincarnation, you don't like risk becoming an inanimate object or an animal or something

deft trout
#

Iirc, becoming a larvae / mane / lemure is effective ego-death, so its not different than complete oblivion. The best way to avoid this happening is lichdom or using magic to transform yourself into a spiritual type of critter beforehand.

There are examples of people that struck deals and started off as higher CR devils immediately, but were shoved into prison or repeatedly killed/demoted until ego death anyways. So not recommended to use a devil pact to achieve this

#

You can also be an Elf, who have an interesting reincarnation cycle going on with their lives

#

At least in 5e

round umbra
deft trout
#

Devil's are proud, backstabbing, selfish creatures. They don't want capable rivals, after all

#

Asmodeus encourages a corrupt system where devils see each other as rivals and competition first. It prevents them from unifying against him, letting him play them against each other.

He keeps the Blood War going because he needs an external enemy to keep the Hells unified in purpose and the illusion of promotion to chase. No different than mortal empires.

jagged apex
#

plus there is the theory that Asmodeus deliberately keeps the blood war on going and could have won it long ago if he truely wanted to

#

plus is not like petitioner's soul and their memories in life can't be reunited, is just a very difficult task, even for gods, so is seldomly done but does still happen from time to time

#

cuz historically as i recall in dnd when you die as part of the natural process of your soul moving onto the afterlife your memorize and your soul are separated, your soul that becomes your new self in the afterlife having only vague emotional remnants of your memories, to where you would recognize emotions you feel towards certain individuals but you would lack that context of why you feel that way as they effectively would be a total stranger, not sure if this was retconned at any point over the various editions and years, but to my knowledge that is the proccess but is not focused on in more recent materials

#

as going on to the after life is not an instant thing, there is a sort of 10 day waiting period where you are effectively waiting to be judged and sent on to the afterlife you are deemed suited for based on your alignment, ie your actions and views in life, unless you worshiped and venerated a god genuinely or make a deal with a devil or other special circumstances

#

granted some details such as for example, the wall of faithless have been retconed over the years in more recent materials

deft trout
#

I'm not sure. With the exception of 5e elves and the occasional magic ritual, I don't recall anything saying that ego / memory death doesn't happen anymore, and all my gms either didn't mention it, or kept it

jagged apex
deft trout
#

No?

jagged apex
#

not all elves reincarnate

#

the elves of eberron, even in 5e, are one example that comes to mind

deft trout
#

Unless you mean "outsude the default Great Wheel"

#

I think ebberon is more the exception to the general rule

jagged apex
#

well eberron, is known for it's self contained cosmology, it is effectively disconnected from the great wheel cosmology

deft trout
#

There's always exceptions

jagged apex
deft trout
#

Evil aligned angels become fiends... except for that guy in Ravenloft

jagged apex
deft trout
#

Yeah. I think we agree that there's always exceptions.

What were we talking about again?

jagged apex
#

i think mariner was worried about one losing consciencousness, which seems to be misspelled as looking it up, it makes no sense, as part of reincarnation

jagged apex
#

cuz from what i found, the term he used means "the quality of wishing to do one's work or duty well and thoroughly." which makes no sense in the provided context

deft trout
#

Oh right. They misspelled consciousness - they were worried about the loss of personality and memory upon dying.

vast hinge
#

Ah yes lore

deft trout
#

It's weird, because from the description of the House of Nature (ng outer plane), you've got plenty of dead heroes just chilling out on farms there.

jagged apex
#

my guess is those heroes did get the privilege of retaining/regaining their memories as it is not impossible, just very difficult, so one could presume some entity, be it a god or some one else powerful enough, like far as i know the weakest reference point we have is zariel who is an archdevil, would have done so

#

then again could have been do to the world tree cosmology, as that is what that plane was part of

#

though arguably even with the seperation of memories, by definition you arguably would be conscious/have consciousness as it is definined as "the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings."

#

in fact none of it's definitons require any sort of memory, just a sense of awareness of yourself and the world around you

#

so again, like presumed earlier, not really an issue you have to worry about

#

though if memory serves there is some gith, forget if githyanki or githzerai, in sigil who historically at least back in the older iteration, not sure if they still are, operates of business of journeying into the astral plane to retrieve these memories, as from what i recall historically these severed memories take the form of spheres of sorts that float in the astral plane some where slowly, and i do mean slowly cuz of the nature of the astral plane especially, degrade over time, assuming they are not eaten by an astral dreadnaught

#

so if it bugs you that bad you could go to sigil potentially and pay to have the recovered, assuming they are not destroyed in one way or another yet

deft trout
#

Or take the easy way out and go lich.

jagged apex
#

well "easy" relatively, more so don't die would be more accurate

#

but even then if via lichdom, your sanity is dependent on doing something that is traditionally seen as basically a cosmic crime to maintain your sanity, so is not like is a guaranteed method if you think about it

#

plus last i checked, there's a good chance that if you mess up the process, that we as the readers and fans even, only know a fraction of the process, you can out right die, as the process even when successful involves your body briefly dying, but of course in this process your soul does not pass onto the after life it become more or less bound to your body and or your phylactery

#

not to mention most of those things including ingredients for the ritual that we do know of, require doing some rather evil and vile acts just to acquired so is basically doubling down on the evil nature that would doom your soul to the lower planes to begin with

#

but to my knowledge there is no guaranteed way to retain your memories when you pass on to the afterlife, as even in the forgotten realms with the elves and their thing they got going on with their gods, they don't remember everything at all times, eventually they forget their past lives at least until their next reincarnation cycle at best

#

if memory serves this is usually around the age of about 30 when they are reborn as a new elf, as their souls are basically being recycled since they are bared from their afterlife for an unknown amount of time do to their people's past, mainly the actions of lolth specifically

round umbra
#

Yes, I made a spelling error.

deft trout
#

All good. Did we answer the question at least?

round umbra
#

Yep, thanks a ton!

rustic isle
#

Would there happen to be a solid resource on religious tenets/ the makings of such?
Putting Lathander and Kelemvor into a melting pot of an undead purging temple. Just need the rules

feral lintel
rustic isle
#

Oops will do ❤️

jaunty maple
#

Best description and rules/laws of physics in regards to shadowfell and feywilds?

If someone lives in one plane, and a kingdom is built on material plane, does it just appear in both?

How does time work?

Ping plz

worn axle
#

rules/laws of physics
There are none, D&D is fantasy, not sci-fi

#

The parallel mirror planes of the shadowfel and feywild are metaphysical and metaphorical in nature, not rigid or physical

#

If someone builds a castle in the material plane, nothing may change in either parallel plane
If someone evil builds a castle where people are tortured, it may appear as a volcano in the shadowfel or a dying tree in the feywild
If a castle is built and stands for thousands of years, it might appear as a mighty fortress in the shadowfell or a glittering tower of crystal and ice in the feywild
emphasis on might

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

there is also some lore youtube videos on the plane you could watch in addition to the published material and the stuff covered in the newer dmg

#

or otherwise it is determined by the ruling archfey of the territory in the feywild one is in

#

best way i can think of to sum them up on a conceptual level, the feywild is a mirror of the prime material plane shaped by stories ie folktales and the like told among the prime material plane's people with life and magic in abundance, where as the shadowfell is a dark gloomy harsh mirror of the prime that is entropic and preserves dark twisted versions of the places that have versions on the prime, born of hate and spite often being the worst case scenario reflection of it's prime material plane counterpart in regards to locations that are mirrored on the planes

serene crater
#

A question of curiosity, but asides from Graz'zt's domain, is it known if mortals inhabit other layers of the Abyss? (or at the very least can without being torn to bits)

round umbra
#

A lot of them have mortals. Not always willing though, and seldom not molested.

uncut yacht
#

For a Sharran Nightfall, I find it kind of vague that in what I can find of it most of the lore says they just commit "depravities in the name of Shar." I get it's probably to let you come to your own conclusions, but I would really like some help in trying to come up with something, like should I be having full on murders happening? Or like the simple steal an old lady's handbag?

As a sidenote, why is there so much dancing between Shar and Selune? It feels like there's a weird amount of dancing in their faiths.

warped gull
#

I mean the moon moves every night and it changes form a lot

#

also like the moon orbits the earth, id imagine the same in the forgotten realms too (unless Toril somehow orbits a moon because DnD troll logic)

round umbra
#

Screwing a man's wife would be more of a Shar's thing in my interpretation.

#

For there to be loss, the person must still be alive to suffer. Murdering them is kinda counterproductive.

#

Unless one argues the murder makes family/friends feel the loss...

uncut yacht
#

I actually did end up going the route of Cyric.

#

Having someone killed as a show alongside dessert.

eager bay
#

Do warforged have souls

grim siren
#

Yes, they do. While not directly stated they are affected by Magic that requires a soul to have such as Resurrection Magic.

#

The mystery is not if they have a soul but where the soul comes from.

dark comet
#

For what it's worth, struggling about what a soul is and what having it means is a core theme of Eberron. Your group should have fun exploring it - if that's of interest. ✌️

obsidian gate
#

yeah in universe, most people arent sure souls actually exist I think

grim siren
#

I go with the Recycled bit. As in they were once People people who got effectively cybermanned. Exploring that lost past self and that missing potential is a core theme of my eberron games.

dark comet
#

For me personally, I think it's a good opportunity to also explore the idea of "earning a soul" (Pablo Neruda, or if you're me, a Simpsons reference).

grim siren
#

Big Shepherd Commander does this unit have a soul vibes

unkempt merlin
#

The in universe debate about warforged having souls is one of the primary things about them in setting yea.

Out of setting, from a metagame sense, we 100% know they have souls. Who knows and/or believes that in world is the fun separate part

light cradle
#

Is there lore on where hags came from

feral lintel
#

Typically the feywild and when people's thoughts are so ugly that it shows on their physical form iirc

#

The hags were a race of such ancient origins that all that could definitively be said was that they originated in the Feywild, and as embodiments of nature's cruelty they might have existed since its inception.[1][12] Being a race of egotistical boasters and blatant liars, anything they said regarding their believed heritage was at the very least their warped perception and at worst an outright fabrication.[9] They haunted the legends of all cultures, and though a few common tales could be found, it was difficult to tell their veracity.

pallid flower
twilit creek
deft trout
warped gull
#

paladins are less about having a god (they don't need one) and more of being an example of some kind of ideal

#

it's not stopping me from for instance allowing a paladin to make an oath in the name of a god or to be like one, for instance

pallid flower
#

Every soul goes to Dolurrh after death, unless they’re warforged or their soul is bound/stolen

unkempt merlin
jagged apex
#

yeah even back with the initial version of the 5e lore, paladins were more about conviction and their believes than any sort of god, not sure if the shift happened earlier than that but paladins being not as strict or bound to gods as they use to be is nothing new to the 2024 stuff

#

and as i recall in regards to clerics, in the realms at least some degree of divine magic could be used by mortal casters without the aid of a deity of being devoted to a deity, and that was back during like 1e or 2e

calm crest
#

Level 1 and 2 spells could be used without any divine assistance since AD&D.

#

Eberron, Mystara, and Athas all explicitly permit deity-less divine casters as actual gods are either ambiguous or nonexistent in those settings.

stable gulch
#

What are other races that live as long as the elves? Or even close to? (Unsure where to ask this)

feral lintel
#

dwarves are pretty close

stable gulch
#

Really? I didn't know dwarves had much longer lifespans than humans

warped gull
#

350 years

stable gulch
#

Holy moly

warped gull
#

tortles and loxos though

#

they got stuck with the human lifespans

feral lintel
#

tortles got 50 years in volos...

stable gulch
#

Sad, you'd think a tortle would live nigh longer than an elf

#

So not many races are close to elf lifespans

warped gull
#

well, githyanki can effectively not die of old age but thats since they mostly hang out in the astral sea where the effects of time pass incredibly slowly, and this lack of ageing affects anyone that spends time there

#

also theres astral elves who have the gith beat in that department so

stable gulch
#

Thank you very much

unkempt merlin
#

how long a given species lives varies depending on setting

#

so its important to make note of which setting you mean

calm crest
#

Longest non-Astral humanoid species lifespan I’m familiar with is Oerthic grey elves at 2,000 years.

#

If we’re talking non-Astral, non-humanoid species, then the answer is hands down aboleths, which are individually immortal and possess intrinsic memories from their progenitors that span back to the first aboleths.

warped gull
#

the scariest part is that aboleths don't remember a mind flayer empire

#

even though it allegedly occurred some time in the past (and was how the gith, duergar, and kuo-toa were created)

clever path
#

due to aquatic nature, it's very likely the empires ran simultaneously in separate areas. where was it said aboleths dont have memory of an illithid empire?

warped gull
#

iirc it was an intergalactic illithid empire

#

the other theory is that illithids are actually from the future

clever path
#

that's just true iirc. they went back in time because everything falls apart in the future

grim siren
#

The future Ilitihid is a theory but it's never been confirmed.

mental fractal
#

how crowded are menzoberranzan streets?

#

id assume its not like a surface city

clever path
#

Why? underdark cities are the only bastions of civilization for many miles in an otherwise inhospitable environment

#

It's also a very large city, known for the high drow population as well as ongoing trade with outsider races and even Beholder visitors

mental fractal
#

huh, makes sense

#

i just assumed lower population + unfriendly xenophobic city would mean that most would stay in their houses or away from the city

clever path
#

they are the main residents. no reason not to be out and about

mental fractal
#

fair enough

#

thanks!

jagged apex
# mental fractal how crowded are menzoberranzan streets?

honestly fun thing is most of what we have known about drow society for years has been from menzoberranzan specifically, as that is where drizzt is from and he is the one that basically made such info more widely known to the surface world

polar summit
#

Hey, is there a thing like a half-celestial? or any special bonuses to having a parent that is a celestial? asking for a friend. 😋

deft trout
#

aasimar species

clever path
#

Plenty. It’s called being half celestial. It’s been a template in older editions generally not fit for player use. Aasimar, like Tiefling and Dragonborn, has been used as the mechanical base for playing a half-celestial/dragon/fiend however

clever path
deft trout
#

they've kinda gotten rid of half-species in 5e24. Tieflings can be the child of a devil now instead of needing to be grandchild

#

half-dragon and cambion are mutants now instead of kids

unkempt merlin
#

they didn't need to be a grandchild before then either. But they also typically weren't a child/grandchild either.

deft trout
#

well, direct child was usually cambion, but... not anymore.

unkempt merlin
#

Tieflings (and Aasimar) were more often just people infused with the power of an appropriate source rather than having a direct "lineage"

unkempt merlin
#

Its one of the many many things that depends on the lore of the setting you are in

deft trout
#

direct lineage is kinda assumed as the default in most editions

unkempt merlin
#

not in 5e, not exactly

deft trout
#

even in 4e, where there was the PACT INFERNAL, you had lineages

#

5e was based on 4e

unkempt merlin
#

And to twist the knife, tieflings know that this is because a pact struck generations ago infused the essence of Asmodeus-overlord of the Nine Hells-into their bloodline.
It wasn't a "literally bloodline from a fiend" thing, it was a "this power was put into your bloodline" thing

unkempt merlin
deft trout
#

thats the 4e pact infernal

unkempt merlin
deft trout
#

which is based on 4e lore

unkempt merlin
#

It is the generic description for tieflings

unkempt merlin
deft trout
#

not anymore. they've been stepping away from that

unkempt merlin
#

yes...

unkempt merlin
#

But also the fact that the 2024 PHB saying they mostly come from a direct lineage thing isn't new to 5e either. Xanathars established that for 5e.

deft trout
#

but I'm not wrong. 4e style was the start of 5e, but they quickly moved away from it when th expansions and with 5e24

jagged apex
#

that is not true

unkempt merlin
#

The things I am disagreeing with you about you are wrong about though?
Tieflings being the child of a devil (or even grandchild), is not new to 2024
and "direct lineage" being the default for 5e (from the start at least) is also... not correct

jagged apex
#

4e is drastically different in most ways from any other edition, 5th included

#

especially in lore

deft trout
#

5e core book teifling is based on 4e tiefling. that's not really debatable. especially not with Farideh as the signature tieflings picture there

jagged apex
#

that isn't even a lore thing, that sounds more like a meta thing

#

and given half-fiends are still a thing distinct from tieflings, so too would assimar and half-celestials

#

also like much of the 2014 5e books, it's lore had a heavy tendency as i understand it to be more rooted in forgotten realms specifically rather than being setting agnostic like the new ones

warped gull
jagged apex
#

not really

warped gull
#

as monsters

jagged apex
#

they might have first been introduced there, but again that is more meta than lore

#

orcs and drow first were mere monsters before being fleshed out into full species of people over the years, so is not like it would have been anything new if that were the case for tieflings, especially given the views and bias towards them on worlds like toril

warped gull
#

no, they were first printed in 2e’s Planescape Campaign Setting

calm crest
#

Tieflings originated in 2e Planescape.

warped gull
#

as people with some kind of demon or devil trait

calm crest
#

They were associated with any type of fiend.

#

From ancestry. Essentially quarter-fiends.

warped gull
#

as were aasimars

#

which were also iirc first printed as monsters

jagged apex
#

well from edition to edition they sort of changed as some other aspects of lore did, 5e largely consolidated these differences, at least with say tieflings, succubi, ect...

#

and planescape is not exactly a traditional setting, but being first printed as monsters or not does not really change anything

warped gull
#

Planescape is the metaverse of DnD

calm crest
#

Tieflings were unified by Asmodeus for 4e and 5e’14. 5e’24 Tieflings have gone back to their 2e roots, mostly.

warped gull
#

I imo prefer Pathfinder 2e’s tiefling/aasimar (known as “nephilm”) mechanics

#

they are any ancestry (like elf, goblin, or human) but replace the lineage (like “cave elf”) with nephilm mechanics

jagged apex
#

is one part setting and one part means of connecting the whole cosmos of the dnd multiverse, much like spelljammer

#

mechanics =/= lore

jagged apex
open wolf
#

Could someone help me find Athkatla on the Faerun map

scarlet sigil
#

If you look on the first result, it's right next to the "Sea of Swords" label on the map. It's about the same distance south away from Candlekeep as Candlekeep is from Baldur's Gate.

forest rock
open wolf
#

Thank you

#

Both of you

tropic nova
#

Whats the lore behind dnd Psionics?

#

Ping with reply please, chances are im gonna forget i asked this here while I shower

grim siren
tropic nova
#

Start with Faerun for me then, please

#

I overall dont get them

grim siren
# tropic nova I overall dont get them

Psionics in the Forgotten Realms are kind of like this weird, under-the-radar force. Most people don’t even really understand what it is—they just lump it in with magic or think it’s some monster trick. It’s not spellcasting though. It’s all internal—mind over matter stuff. Doesn’t touch the Weave at all, which freaks out a lot of wizards because they can’t control it or predict it. (Though this is likely to change with the new UA class, specifically being a spellcaster)

You’ll mostly hear about psionics in connection with creatures like mind flayers or aboleths, or sometimes duergar and yuan-ti. Those species tend to have a natural affinity for it—like it’s baked into their biology or culture. For everyone else, it's incredibly rare. Maybe one in ten thousand humans ever show even a hint of it, and when they do, it’s usually somewhere that's been exposed to psionic energy for a long time—old ruins, buried cities, that sort of thing.

Places like the Vilhon Reach (where Jhaamdath which was a nation of human psionics used to be), Skullport, or even parts of Halruaa tend to have higher concentrations of psionic folk. Some of them organize into little secret groups—like spy guilds, or scholars poking around the edges of what's considered safe knowledge. Most people just don’t notice them, or mistake them for regular wizards.

tropic nova
grim siren
#

As of right now in the Forgotten Realms lore, it is specifically not magic. The inworld name for it is the Invisible Art. This is in contrast to arcane magic's official inworld name the Art.

#

Again, with the new UA specifically classifying it as a spellcaster. This is likely to change if it is mentioned at all in the new FR guide coming out this November.

tropic nova
#

Psionics have always been kinda soft banned in games I've played tbh, and I personally have never banned them but no one ik has wanted one

grim siren
#

That's because at least in previous additions they were not balanced particularly well. Even the 5th edition Mystic is a sight point for this. It was a horribly balanced class which is why it never made it out of UA and instead Wizards doled out the psionics to other classes in the veil of subclasses.

tropic nova
#

So, ki is entirely different to psi, right?

#

Like monks aren't a psijic(?) thing

#

So Psi is like, latent energy, not quite magic, not quite the force.

grim siren
#

Yes Ki is its own separate thing.

#

Psionics display magic like abilities. However, they don't utilize the weave, nor the shadow weave in the Realms. Most common people believe that it's just a type of magic, but most learned magical people know better. They don't like psionics very much, mainly because they don't like things they can't understand. To them, it's an anomaly, it's wrong.

jagged apex
#

last i checked ever since 5e, especially once they by this point, it has officially been defined as a form of magic, the magic of the mind

#

to my knowledge they have not changed that with the 2024 revision of the lore if anything they have double down and reaffirmed it

tropic nova
tropic nova
#

psionics seems to be loosely defined

crude blaze
jagged apex
#

wizards are more like mathematical magic, they study and rely on formulas and incantations that result in consistently predictable outcomes for magic, while it does not have the more recent sources accounted for from what i can tell, the forgotten realms wiki can provide more detail https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Psionics

#

just again, know that both mechanically and lore wise psionics often has changed from edition to edition, it being a type of magic is specific to the 5e continuity to my knowledge

crude blaze
#

Yeah, in the past psionics were their own system. In 5E they just bundled it within Spellcasting for the sake of simplicity, while also making it mechanically unique enough to stand out as different from standard Spellcasting.

jagged apex
#

like mindflayers, since their entire bodies are technically brains, they view it as the only valid form of magic in their society, it is like casting magic with pure thought, like you don't do hand gestures or incantations, if you psionically are casting fireball, you a either thinking or mentally picturing "fireball"

#

and the reason why such magic can't be counter spelled, again in the 5e continuity at least, is because it is instantly do to this process, there is no forewarning or way to know they are casting something until the "spell" resolves, as counter spell is fundamentally you interrupting the spell magically before it successfully resolves is the best way i can think to put it

tropic nova
#

See I can totally conceptualize the "mind flayers use different magic" im not sure if thats cause bg3 hammered in the "they dont function like us" tho

jagged apex
#

important thing is to remember bg3 is it's own continuity, while it sticks close to much published materials, it does have it's differences and each form of dnd media is part of a different continuity, it is not automatically the same as what is described in the books and published lore

tropic nova
#

Nah I dont mean its same continuity, I just mean exposure to it makes that idea easier to get.

jagged apex
#

potentially it is loosely definined, do to how it has changed over the years and them trying to keep as much of the logic still in tact, like how such spells can't be counter spelled, the reason is different, but the fact that it can't be counter spelled remains a constant thing

jagged apex
#

as another detail worth keeping in mind, in dnd magic is a fundimental part of the cosmos, just like time, space, gravity, ect...

tropic nova
#

Yeah, get that. You're not casting magic, you're accessing magic to cast it.

#

You're renting it, if you will

jagged apex
#

in dnd. earth is a real place, but the reason we don't have magic these days is cuz earth's system is basically a massive setting wide dead magic zone, so humans from earth have no connection to magic, even when they were taken from earth to toril in some less than plesant cases in toril's history

tropic nova
#

Didn't know that tbh. Don't like that either tbh.

#

I never liked the "universal travel"(?) aspects of dnd

#

Like faerun and eberron being planets or whatever

jagged apex
#

it is not really universe travel

#

at least in the sence of going from one universe to another

#

faerun is not a planet

#

it is a continent on the planet of toril in the forgotten realms setting

tropic nova
#

Tbf I dont know what else on Toril is important

jagged apex
#

the multiverse is a very important part of dnd i'd argue as the planes of existence are shared across many settings, the exceptions being self-contained cosmologies like eberron

tropic nova
#

But youre right, Faerun is to Khorvaire what Toril is to Eberron

jagged apex
#

honestly depends what you qualify as "important" as that can be a very subjective term

tropic nova
#

Like uhhh, other continents

#

Toril is primarily composed of Faerun in my mind

grim siren
#

That's because around 90% of the information's there.

Faerûn is one third of the supercontinent Bharyar, the other portions are Kara-Tur and Zakhara.

Other continents include, Maztica, Laerakond (disputed), Osse, Katahsaka, Thuin, Arandron, Anchorome, and an unnamed Southern continent.

tropic nova
#

So there are other places but they just exist

#

They dont exist in the same way Faerun does

jagged apex
#

well some older editions explored some other parts of toril, but they were products of their time and thus after many writers brought in real world parallels and inspiration they were not exactly the most culturally sensitive

#

eh, they both exist in the same way, published material just focuses more on faerun

grim siren
#

The other continents on the supercontinent are detailed, just an earlier editions. Maztica was detailed as well. Laerakond was detailed in 4th edition.

#

Though in it's published format it is known as Returned Abeir.

jagged apex
#

the one we know the least about strictly from published materials, i believe is Osse

grim siren
#

We don't even know if this is a full comprehensive list. And Ed Greenwood himself calls the world map fanciful, as he nor anyone at TSR or WotC made it.

When asked how many continents there were Elminster replied "I think 14ish."

tropic nova
#

But FR is the NYC of Toril, if aliens invaded, theyre invading in Faerun, yeah?

jagged apex
#

one thing worth knowing though is the original forgotten realms, before via wizards of the coast and tsr before them bringing in other writers besides the setting's creator Ed greenwood, is ed greenwood deliberately did not have any of toril's cultures inspired by those in our own world, the published continuity is wizards of the coast and tsr's version depending on the edition

jagged apex
tropic nova
#

Gotcha

grim siren
tropic nova
#

Where'd waterdeep come from, outta curiosity?

jagged apex
tropic nova
#

Like for your statement

jagged apex
#

also probably worth knowing that in terms of scale, toril is many times larger than earth, i forget how much exactly, but i know it is bigger than earth by many times

#

like you could fit multiple earths within toril if you were to think of them like containers

tropic nova
#

Tbh that's not something I can meaningfully wrap my head around anyway

jagged apex
#

just know that toril is much bigger and thus much more full of life than earth so don't make the mistake of judging the creatures that dwell there or their ecosystem by earth's standards

tropic nova
#

What makes you think I was doing that to begin with?

jagged apex
#

not saying you were

tropic nova
#

My unironic favorite non human race in FR is Drow lmao

#

I like abnormality in my fantasy settings

jagged apex
#

fun fact, for the longest time in the realms, the majority of lore we got on the drow, was specifically based off those that worship lolth, as the city that driz'zt, a popular character and who kind of helped in universe make the underdark as a whole more well known than it was before, came from a city that was centered around lolth's faith, and thus the lolth worshiping drow are the most well known and for better or worse are the ones most on toril think of when they think drow and more often than not judge and treat them accordingly

tropic nova
#

Yeah, Drizzy iirc grew up in Menzoberranzan, been meaning to read the early books in his series tbh

grim siren
#

Eiliastraee Drow always existed. While Drizzt and his story softened hearts in the North and Bloodstone Lands.

Other characters like Leiriel Baerne helped in the Unapproachable East. And Mystra's daughter Qúile Veladorn helped in the heartlands.

jagged apex
#

in more recent years we have learned form the man responsible for most of the drow lore we know today, that is a specific culture of drow known as the udadrow
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Udadrow
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Aevendrow
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Lorendrow
though these other two are more recent and thus we know comparatively little of them by comparison other than they managed to hide from the influence of lolth and potentially the rest of her pantheon for a long time only being recently discovered in universe

tropic nova
#

See I like the awful drow tho, theyre fun to interact with

jagged apex
#

then you'd like what is technically these days known as the udadrow

#

as they are the ones that worship lolth and basically have their entire culture revolved around her and her ways

tropic nova
#

Are they the classical lolth sworn evil mustache twirlers?

#

Yup

grim siren
#

Aevendrow are featured heavily in the most recent Way of the Drow Trilogy. As well as their potential connections to the Vaati and the Wind Dukes of Aaqa.

The Lorendrow has no information other than their initial reveal lore that can only be accessed at source from the Wayback Machine. I hope more lore is given in the new FR Guide. Like the location of their city in the jungles to the south.

jagged apex
#

well the majority are lolth, technically some others, presumably the rest of their pantheon, not sure about evil mustache twirling

tropic nova
grim siren
#

Perhaps some Drow lore might also be revealed in the new book following Drizzt's Daughter.

#

I doubt Lorendrow will be expanded on as the book The Finest Edge of Twilight takes place in Damara.

jagged apex
#

could also be useful to see things from her perspective too since Briennelle Zaharina, or Brie-Zara, is a half-drow

#

and half-elves have their own unique points of interest in the lore of the realms, especially how full blood elves view them

grim siren
#

Yep. Though Salvatore makes mockery of distances once again with the two main characters being thousands of miles away from each other. Breezey being in Damara and the other Main Character Dalia being in the Savage Frontier.

Will be interesting how he Bridges a gap that quite literally separated by desert and sea.

jagged apex
#

like though it might be unpleasant to think of, toril and it's people even in the areas we tend to focus on, is still rather prejudice of some races, depending on the kind of people she interacts with, brie-zara could have to lean more on her human or drow ancestry to get by or could be targeted for it, which could be interesting as apparently there are are only about 4 other notable known half-drow, least that are documented on the forgotten realms wiki at all https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Half-drow#Notable_Half-Drow
though if the wiki is to be take at it's word, seems the norm is that most people view them same as they do the drow proper, likely the udadrow if being technical, so that has gotta be rough for her

#

and of course according to the same source, the full blooded drow don't view them any better

grim siren
#

I have a seeking suspicion that, tensions between the species are going to be absent from the new FR guide. They've been kind of swerving away from that like it's a hurricane. And I will be interested to see how they handle half elf since they just completely removed that from the new PHB as an option. Perhaps a custom lineage option or something like that, but that's more mechanics and not lore.

jagged apex
prime siren
#

How does one become a myconid sovereign

#

Is it an obtainable physique

jagged apex
versed hare
eager bay
#

Would it make more sense for the manipulation of inorganic matter or natural forces to be represented with constructs or as elementals?

jagged apex
#

depends on the nature of it

#

especially since to my knowledge dnd beyond is still temporarily down so can't just copy and paste the key description from the 2024 setting agnostic stuff, but should be the next best thing and plenty for the purpose

eager bay
eager bay
jagged apex
#

sounds very aberration like that is possessing a construct to me

calm crest
#

Sounds similar to the eidolon, a possessing spirit in a Construct vessel.

jagged apex
#

but this is for established published lore, your own creations and concepts might be more fitting in #dm-world-building

#

and many constructs as we see them in the initial 5e versions such as iron golems have elemental spirits bound into them allowing them to be animated despite still having limited functions and no free will like most constructs

#

but yeah, the closest thing in published material i can think to use as a refference point is as thanazrael said, the eidolon

#

and by following that logic it would depend if it is in the moment possessing construct as a vessel or not

#

the entity itself would be effectively something else

inner adder
#

is celestial aging like a normal human would?

calm crest
#

Depends on the Celestial, but most are ageless and immortal beings.

crude blaze
#

A lot of outer planar beings are just planar energy given form, so they don’t typically age

#

They’re just… made, and they exist the way they were made until someone unmakes them

warped gull
#

celestials cant age

#

they like other extraplanars are iirc formed from the collective feeling, thoughts, and ideas of mortals

jagged apex
#

not exactly

#

but as i recall aging is not really something ever described to my knowledge regarding extra planar life

inner adder
#

So, asking opinion from lore wise

I'm playing a game in D&D 5e where one of the characters is a full celestial who, by nature, is immortal and doesn’t undergo aging like mortals do. I want to incorporate a Wild Magic Surge with the following effect:

Roll a d10. Your age changes by a number of years equal to the roll. > If the roll is odd, you get younger (minimum 1 year old). If the roll is even, you get older.

Given that celestials are biologically non-human, how should I interpret this surge?

Should the age change be treated as it only changes the number that represents age without affecting physical attributes at all? dndThink

jagged apex
#

but if we are defining aging as their appearance changing over time, celestials don't typically age

jagged apex
inner adder
#

Ah, I see. I just thought it would be more narratively flavorful if we drew from the lore dndThink

jagged apex
#

extra planar beings, celestials included are effectively both body and spirit sort of metaphysical in nature, as far as i know any biology would maybe be detailed in 3.5e materials

#

as i know that books of that time/edition covered that for devils, i am sure there is likely one that would cover their good aligned kin

inner adder
#

ic, i can look from there then, thank you~!

warped gull
#

they are not lifeforms like for instance animals or plants are

jagged apex
#

well, yes and no, on their home plane it is implied historically at least to my knowledge they have things like organs vital and otherwise, just they disappear if they die outside of their native plane after about 10 minutes

hazy flower
#

is in forgotten realms organisation that is reading future?

crude blaze
#

I don’t know of any specific factions or organizations that specialize in divination, but there are tons of divination wizards All around world

hazy flower
grim siren
hazy flower
eager bay
#

Idk if this is the right place to ask this, but is casting magic supposed to have an affect on the caster? And I don’t mean like spells targeting oneself, I mean like the act of channeling magic through oneself especially at high levels if that makes sense

jagged apex
calm crest
#

For some spells, such as elven high magic, Wish, Alter Reality, epic magic, etc., the answer is definitely yes. Various editions have imposed aging, XP loss, or other drawbacks for powerful spells.

versed hare
#

In 5e spellcasting has no inherent drawbacks like that unless you are using some extra rules for a campaign that would fit

calm crest
#

Using major Wishes retains strain on the caster. Evokers also suffer drawbacks from overchanneling magic. 5e still has instances of this.

pallid flower
#

Haste (although it’s the burden of the effect of the magic, not the casting)

jagged apex
#

lore wise the closest thing is the trade offs used in high magic/epic magic to cast spells of such power that are beyond the level of what we know as 9th level spells, in the realms this is at least touched on with the points of what would happen for one attempting to cast such magic https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Epic_magic

#

2e's "Secrets of the Magister" being the source where they quote casting such magic is both physically and mentally taxing on the caster

#

so in the realms at least even without factoring in Mystra and Azuth deeming your attempt as too risky or not, it would be the magical equivilent of over exerting yourself

harsh python
#

Are there any anti-magic, or like magic absorbent metals in D&D?

prisma siren
#

Lead blocks some kinds of magic, typically divinations

harsh python
#

I should specify: A metal which can be used to make a usable weapon XD

wooden depot
#

I feel like a lead lined shield would be useful

#

If heavy

heavy bluff
#

Could lore wise a wizard learn to draw power from the shadow fell like they do the weave ?

vestal mirage
eager bay
#

Is the weave the only place magic can be drawn from in dnd or are there more ways that magic of some sort can be acquired besides just the traditional divine, arcane, and primal?

feral lintel
#

its only the case in the Forgotten Realms

cedar plaza
#

A quick one guys,
In curse of strahd, the domains of dread, how does a cleric/paladin still have a connection to their god ? Is it weakened ? And if so any help on explaining it ? Thanks

scarlet sigil
#

CoS mentions that cleric powers still work as normal. They are not weakened in any way, except for spells that contact other planes (which would effect some cleric spells), where Strahd can choose to become the spells recipient instead of the original target.

cedar plaza
scarlet sigil
#

Not really. I'd handle it like I would if the character were on a different plane of existence in the multiverse. Some planes have their own quirks, and this is just one of them. And the quirk is that Strahd is the local BBEG and can mess with the gods connection.

#

So I suppose I'd only warn the player if they're going for big divination spells. And even then, clerics can switch them out, so I'd probably just make it a surprise if Strahd suddenly shows up instead of the god.

cedar plaza
glacial heart
#

So I need advice, my character, an ascendant dragon monk, has a goal to reunite Bahumut, Null, and Tiamat and work to forget their differences and get along

eager bay
#

Very ambitious character goal

#

-# also who’s Null

grim siren
#

Dragon Death God.

crude blaze
#

I believe he also goes by Chronepsis, who in 5E has mostly been treated more like a greatwyrm or “dragon god” of time

glacial heart
#

@crude blaze yes but Divinity cand be given and taken, I could gain it myself given enough time, and that's my way of enticing Null to work with the idea

crude blaze
#

Well, as of 5E, aside from Bahamut and Tiamat there really aren’t any other “dragon gods”. The dragons that would be worshipped as other gods are greatwyrms.

glacial heart
#

Null lost his Divinity in 5E and I'm sure he would really like that back

#

Say take Cyrics for example.....

#

But yes, our party is looking to change the world

grim siren
#

Dragons don't even really consider Bahamut and Tiamat to be Gods.

#

To metallic dragons, Bahamut is more like a king than a god. Individual dragons might owe Bahamut allegiance, respect him, pay tribute to him, and strive to emulate him. Similarly, chromatic dragons might fear, respect, envy, and appease Tiamat as a sovereign. But none of those attitudes and behaviors bear any resemblance in a dragon’s mind to the worship that mortals offer to their gods.

  • Fizban's Treasury of Dragons Chapter 3, Roleplaying Dragons, Gods and Religion.
feral lintel
#

Yeah, theyre more like king and queen

#

with Tiamat taking consorts even

grim siren
#

The other dragon gods listed is by no means an exhaustive, it is just list of Dragon Gods from settings.

  • Aasterinian is from Greyhawk
  • Chronepsis is from Eberron
  • Tamara is from the Forgotten Realms and Eberron
feral lintel
#

Then theres also Sardior, but hes dead 😔

grim siren
#

Kreeska is mentioned in Baldur's Gate 3 which is the Draconic God of Magic in the Realms.

feral lintel
#

On another topic, whats the maturity rate/lifespan/biological information (if any) for griffons

grim siren
#

According to Icewind Dale Rime of the Frostmaiden they mature in 3 years.

calm crest
#

Mystara has a wholly different draconic pantheon of Diamond, Pearl, Opal, and the Great One. Granted these are Immortals and expressly not deities.

eager bay
#

So I was interested in the lore behind the Raven Queen and Shadar Kai.

So I had a Question:

It seems when Shadar Kai die their souls are retrieved by the Raven Queen and resurrected.

Does this mean they get bodies similar to the ones they had before death, or do they get new bodies, are they reborn as new infants, or does she have a bank of Elf corpses that she uses as new vessels for the souls ?

reef cape
reef cape
# eager bay So I was interested in the lore behind the Raven Queen and Shadar Kai. So I had...

It appears that I cannot find a clear answer to that question, so we can only speculate. Speculation time: Since elves in general reincarnate, it is possible that the Shadar-Kai reincarnation process has been hijacked by the Raven Queen, and that it therefore works in a similar way to other elves, and they are simply reborn, but always as a Shadar-Kai, whereas other elves can be reborn as any kind (i.e. a wood elf can be reborn as a sea elf in their next life)

prisma siren
#

The earliest mentions of Chronepsis I know of are in Cult of the Dragon and Demihuman Deities, both FR books from 1998

#

I think Eberron wasn't officially a part of D&D until 2004, and by that point Chronepsis had replaced Null in the pantheon in the 2003 Draconomicon. But there might have been earlier cross pollination I'm not aware of

jagged apex
# reef cape It appears that I cannot find a clear answer to that question, so we can only sp...

in more setting agnostic material shadar-kai are not all bound the raven queen though they were drawn to the shadowfell by her, they don't all serve her these days, so is a choice and even more vague and have become sort of bound/tied to the shadowfell over time, to partially quote their latest lore in the book "mordenkainen presents monsters of the multiverse"
"Once shadar-kai were Fey like the rest of their elven kin; now they exist in a state between life and death, thanks to being transformed by the Shadowfell’s grim energy." end quote

#

so as per their most up to date lore we have in published materials they are normally in a sort of inbetween state, not to be confused with undeath, so their relation to things like death and reincarnation are largely unknown and purely speculative to my my knowledge

jagged apex
# reef cape Chronepsis is from Eberron? Are you certain? I was told he was first mentioned i...

well in the realms and presumably other settings he was known mainly as null https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Null going far back as 2e, and him being known as Chronepsis in one aspect was in Demihuman Deities. Edited by Julia Martin. (TSR, Inc.), p. 143 so far before eberron was created and especially before it was adopted as an official setting as that was not until wizards of the coast gained took on the mantel of the owners of the IP

#

so depends in that sense whether you are talking about the god or the constellation

#

if referring to the draconic deity, he would have originated from the forgotten realms setting back in 2e when tsr ran things

#

so while he exists in eberron he is not orignally from that setting

unkempt merlin
#

Eberron can only ever date back to 3e cause well. Thats when eberron became a setting.

Chronepsis, as with... all of the other dragon gods (bar Tiamat, who is an Overlord) in Eberron (iirc at least) aren't actually "gods" in the same way as in other settings (as is the case with gods in Eberron in general), but more specifically they are the names of constellations in the setting that the dragons in setting say represent their gods.

Best as I understand the naming behind them is they all simply use the names of dragon gods that were otherwise existent in dnd at the time (so the 3e era)

#

basically, its a sort of syncretism

crude blaze
#

Yeah, I’d say the original Eberron Chronepsis still very much fits into the category of a greatwyrm. Powerful enough to be worshipped as a god and impart powers and gifts, but not categorically a deity.

eager bay
#

Are there any known great old one patrons or elder evils associated with constructs?

calm crest
#

Setting?

eager bay
#

I'm just looking for an example

calm crest
#

Eberron’s Daelkyr make use of biomechanical Husks of Infinite Worlds to create new abominations. Since not all the Daelkyr are defined, it would be very possible to include a specifically Construct-themed one as well.

eager bay
calm crest
#

An anaxim is a (setting neutral) Abomination, a semi-divine failed creation of the gods. Anaxims are huge mechanical monsters created by gods of the forge, then cast aside.

eager bay
#

Hhh.. maybe I shouldn't use constructs for them

calm crest
#

Mystara’s Cult of the Frog might qualify as a Construct-related GOO. They are run by a man who is secretly the survivor of a crashed spaceship and uses high technology to feign divine favors, including cyborg assassins.

eager bay
#

I'm considering using constructs to represent inorganic manifestations of an eldritch species/ecosystem instead of elementals, but there's not many examples of GOOs or elder evils having much of anything to do with constructs in canon dnd lore

calm crest
#

Illithids have unique golems that they can make.

#

Brain golems and nyraala golems.

#

A living wall is a form of Construct (or Undead). One such living wall was created by the Gate of Firestorm Peak, a rift to the Far Realm.

#

Tharizdun’s lost temple has magical statues, although they aren’t strictly Constructs.

#

Neth, the Demiplane That Lives, might be a GOO? It creates antibodies that act as flesh golems, and buds of itself called nethlings.

#

Neth is very much not inorganic, however.

#

It does seem like when (established) Aberrations make Constructs, they’re nearly always organic or biomechanical.

#

The closest thing I can think of to a proper combination Aberration/Construct are Devourers, which appear in 2e’s Lankhmar supplement. Given that Nehwon ghouls have appeared in the Forgotten Realms and that Devourers explicitly travel between worlds, it’s not impossible for a Devourer to exist in the core D&D multiverse.

#

(Not to be confused with the Planescape monster of the same name.)

#

A zodar is another sort of aberrant Construct, although their exact origin is mysterious. (And given the redaction of crystal spheres in 5e, their existence is seemingly pointless.)

loud olive
#

if a starfish is missing an arm and you cast cure wounds on it, would the arm regrow?

calm crest
#

Given that there are spells which expressly Regenerate major injuries, no. HP is an abstraction that only occasionally correlates to bodily harm.

noble flint
#

What kinds of gems and materials are in the plane of fire, aside from well: fire, fire (but liquid), and fire (but solid)?
Anything that the salamanders would be around?
I know there is basalt and obsidian.
What happens to solid fire if it ends up in the material plane?

molten merlin
#

What's the current state of Evermeet?

jagged apex
#

am curious, do we have any information regarding the nature of or how Ephelomon died in the lore or is just something we know happened and nothing more is detailed about the death itself?

jagged apex
#

nothing much else has been detailed to my knowledge in more recent materials

blazing depot
#

was trying to figure out what the planes are like in space altogether and the prime material plane part confused me. Do the infinite(?) material planes in there all have the same outer planes, excluding shadowfell and feywild i think?

jagged apex
crude blaze
#

AFAIK the only Material world that doesn’t share the same planes is Eberron

jagged apex
#

and that is do to it's self contained cosmology and it being hidden away in the deep ethereal

#

it effectively is a prime material world and setting that can be considered basically the largest and most complex demiplane ever do to the power of the god like beings that created it

#

unless a setting is noted as having a self contained cosmology, they share the same outer planes as the rest of the cosmos in terms of published materials

#

which for 5e is the great wheel cosmology

jagged apex
#

and they are not in space

#

planes of existences are like other dimensions basically

#

chapter 6 in the 2024 dmg is setting agnostic and dedicated to detailing and explaining at least the basics and key elements of the cosmology and the planes of existance, so if you have that book i'd suggest giving it a good read, as that should help

#

to partially quote "The planes of existence are realms of myth and mystery. They’re not simply other worlds, but dimensions formed and governed by spiritual and elemental principles. They fall into the following categories:

Material Realms. Most D&D worlds are located on the Material Plane, which has two planar echoes: the Feywild and the Shadowfell.

Transitive Planes. The Ethereal Plane and the Astral Plane are boundless realms that provide passage between other planes of existence.

Inner Planes. The four Elemental Planes (Air, Earth, Fire, and Water), plus the Para-elemental Planes between them, are the Inner Planes.

Outer Planes. Seventeen Outer Planes correspond to the nine alignments and shades of philosophical difference between them.

Positive and Negative Planes. These two planes enfold the rest of the cosmology, providing the raw forces of life and death that underlie all existence in the multiverse." end quote

blazing depot
#

okay word. last clarification do they have the same outer planes as in places like Mount Celestia and the Nine Hells would get souls from all those material planes?

#

i know nothing about mount celestia ignore that example

jagged apex
#

yes, as i said, unless specified otherwise in a setting, each setting shares the same outerplanes is partially what they are infinite in scale

blazing depot
#

okay thanks

jagged apex
#

again, i highly would recommend reading chapter 6 of the 2024 dmg if you have access to it as it details the this sort of stuff about the cosmology in a setting agnostic matter, meaning it is not influenced by any one setting, the sort of universal version as far as published materials go

teal rock
#

Do duergar get along with mind flayers?

clever path
#

Absolutely not. Mind Flayers made them by messing with dwarves a bunch

crude blaze
#

Duergar categorically abhor mind flayers, yeah.

#

They’ll drop everything to slay a flayer

teal rock
#

Rly? I thought so too. Just couldn't find any text that confirmed it.

#

In fact I found text that claimed that they respected each other. I kinda thought that was weird.

tardy wasp
#

Are there any true gods of the Fey that might have a Dreams Druid as a priest?

crude blaze
#

Depends on the setting. In a lot of settings, fey tend to serve an archfey more directly than they serve a god, but a lot of settings have them tied to a god of nature and magic, similar to Corellon

teal rock
#

There's a minor fey water goddess? She's part of the elvish pantheon though. Forgotten Realms setting.

eager bay
#

Who actually were Tasha, Xanathar, Bigby, Mordenkainen, etc. and all those guys?

pine snow
#

I want to start a lore that, elves are a breed made from vampires and humans.
I know dhampirs exist but to me, this just sounds cooler

crude blaze
calm crest
#

Xanathar is more of a title than an individual. It’s a beholder crime boss of Waterdeep in the Forgotten Realms.

Tasha, Mordenkainen, and Bigby are all archmages of Greyhawk.

#

Tasha, also know as Iggwilv, is the mother of the demigod Iuz (sired by Graz’zt) and adopted mother of the vampire Drelnza. She herself is the adopted daughter of Baba Yaga, and is a renowned demonologist and occasional fey.

solemn mica
#

To add to this, many of them were from the Gygax family home game. Mordenkainen was one of Gary Gygax's PCs, for example

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

most of them to my knowledge, save for Xandulzrithral, were assassinated by their would be replacement

thick sentinel
# calm crest Tasha, also know as Iggwilv, is the mother of the demigod Iuz (sired by Graz’zt)...

https://odd74.proboards.com/thread/12227/real-iggwilv
Iggwilv is not Tasha; Tasha is not Iggwilv
Iuz is not sired by Graz'zt and Iggwilv, Iggwilv was at some point killed by Graz'zt (and came back to his demise)
She is not related to Baba Yaga and here's why: Baba Yaga is Slavic tradition and Iggwilv is rooted in the Finnish Kalevala

If you have Deities & Demigods handy, open to the Finnish Mythos --
Heward is inspired by Vainamoinen, Kwalish by Ilmarinen, Bucknard by Lemminkainen, Tuerny the Merciless by Kullervo, Iggwilv by Louhi, and Iuz by the son of Pohjola. Therefore, it stands that Tuonetar is the inspiration for Iggwilv's mother, not Baba Yaga

Tasha is the crayon-writing young fan of Gygax who wrote him a letter, and it was this fan who gave Gary Gygax the inspiration to create the spell Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter. As Tasha (the real person) is an underrepresented person, it is uncharacteristic of current D&D lore to write her out of the lore. It's exclusionary; unique identity is impactful. Crossing streams or consolidating lore is wrong in this situation

Of course, I mean these to be applied as applicability, not allegory. There must be no specific allegorical interpretation. Find your own meaning and connections

That said, we must openly acknowledge that real-world cultures, places, and historical events inspired many aspects of D&D lore. This is about inspiration, not direct representations. Draw your own respectful parallels

There is absolutely a conceptual connection between D&D lore and our real world, though not in a literal sense. Maybe you can't drink Dr Pepper with Elminster, but he can absolutely find an ancient artifact that resembles a can of Dr Pepper. Perhaps it is best to think of D&D lore as a mythological, distant past reflection of our real-world environs -- such as the time of Atlantis (not real, but fun). The concepts in D&D lore are a kind of lost history of our own world

ionic rivet
#

Please note that this channel is specifically for official D&D lore and while D&D is heavily inspired by real world folk tales and mythology, this channel is not for discussion of real world mythology.

thick sentinel
#

I cite my sources

ionic rivet
#

Sure but please keep things focussed on official D&D lore

drowsy wraith
#

Ebberon questions are ok though right?
Who built the lord of blades?

grim siren
#

While their history may have started as different entities in the modern context, Natasha the Dark and Iggwilv the Witch Queen are the same person.

drowsy wraith
#

Are there goats still living on Athas?

reef cape
#

OK so here's why Dre is wrong:
Dre is confusing real world mythology with D&D lore. The sources don't matter, they are irrelevant. In the context of D&D lore, Tasha and Iggwilv are two names for the same fictional character, who did have a child with Graz'zt named Iuz, and is the adopted daughter of the fictional character Baba Yaga, who indeed bears the same name and is inspired by the slavic mythological figure, but is not that character because D&D is not slavic folklore.

#

Now D&D often claims that "This god from earth migrated to this fictional D&D world", and it is part of the lore. But the trick is: Earth doesn't exist in D&D. There is a place called Earth, it's not ours. Ed Greenwood has never drunk Dr Pepper with a wizard from another world.

#

In the same way, the Baba Yaga who is part of Slavic folklore is not the Baba Yaga of D&D. And the Loviatar of Finnish mythology is not the Loviatar of D&D.

#

And indeed, while Iggwilv was originally a different character from Tasha, current lore is that they are one and the same.

drowsy wraith
#

Isn't there a 3.5 adventure where you get transported to ww1 Russia

reef cape
#

No, that's Pathfinder.

drowsy wraith
#

Oh

#

Are you sure? I distinctly remember fighting Rasputin as a lich in 3.5

reef cape
#

And even if it were a D&D adventure, it wouldn't change a thing. Because in real life, I can promise you that no team of adventurers from another dimension has ever fought Grigori Rasputin in a magic duel during World War I.

#

Well, I was certain. But if you "distinctly" remember it, I have to check.

drowsy wraith
#

Oh no maybe the dm just let me play a hexblade from 3.5

reef cape
#

It is indeed possible that your DM just played that Pathfinder campaign but in D&D 3.5.

#

Essentially, when discussing D&D lore it's important to remember that things exist on three levels:
The Watsonian level, from the point of view of the characters in that world
The Doylist level, from the point of view of the writers and the behind the scenes of how that lore ended up the way it is
The metatextual level, from the point of view of how it relates to real life and real beliefs.

Those are three different things, and if you confuse all three, you're in a mess.

pallid flower
silent atlas
#

Aside from orcus is there any demon lord that used to be human

calm crest
#

If we’re talking Mystara, then all Immortals of Entropy, including the demonic ones, were formerly mortals. Orcus was a devil swine and Alphaks was an Alphatian human.

reef cape
calm crest
#

As for the more mainstream D&D multiverse, we definitively know that Demogorgon, Pazuzu, Graz’zt, and Dagon at a minimum are explicitly non-mortals.

#

(Pazuzu and Dagon are included in the category of Obyriths that made the transition to Demon Lords.)

#

Kostchtchie expressly was human at one point, although he became a being similar to a giant before becoming a demon and self-identifies as a frost giant deity.

jagged apex
jagged apex
#

and he is very violent in response to being called previously anything but a frost giant, so i doubt too many people dispute it or claim otherwise while he's in ear shot

calm crest
#

His preferred story is that he was once a king among frost giants before his apotheosis, but this was an obfuscation meant to legitimize his claim to rule over the giants.

#

The next paragraph proceeds to say he was human.

reef cape
#

Kostchtchie was a frost giant according to most books. It's in James Jacob's article in Dragons magazine that he was retconned to be a former human.

#

How much of it is still canon is anyone's guess.

#

Though it is true that even earlier publications kept it relatively ambiguous

thick sentinel
modest badger
#

Tasha and Iggwilv may have had different creative origins and were originally not related, but they became official and explicit the same character in 2007 Expedition to Castle Greyhawk.

When Iggwilv’s simulacrum came upon this room, she
recognized her own face in the image of Tasha—a name
that the real Iggwilv had used long ago, which might in fact be the one given her by her mysterious mother.
This connection was strengthened further with a connection to another similar character, Natasha the Dark from Dragon Magazine 1984, in later Dragon Magazines.

In 5e, that connection is fully explicit.

Tasha is Iggwilv. This is official lore.

thick sentinel
#

Who wrote that? Did they know about inclusive language and the impact of unique identity? Current D&D lore requires both of those things. May need to retconn

modest badger
#

Lore within D&D is not the same as folklore outside.

Tiamat is not the same as the Tiamat from earth's legends, so on.

As a moderator has already reminded for this channel, please cite official D&D sources. Outside sources such as interviews with authors can also offer incite, but folklore, while interesting and can give insight on creative origins is not official D&D lore.

thick sentinel
#

If you read what I wrote carefully, you may see it

modest badger
#

As and example of an Author's unofficial insight:

"Noppers, Iggwilv is purely from Oerth and has no connection to Louhi of the Kalevala and Finnish Mythology." Q&A with Gary Gygax, page 182. ENWorld, Jun 16, 2005.

thick sentinel
#

I have seen that

#

Gary Gygax didn't always tell the truth, and that may be one of the times he stretched the truth to suit his purposes at the time. That statement, to me, appears to be retribution by Gary towards WotC

#

and I agree and made explicit that there is no direct connection between Iggwilv and Louhi

#

there is no allegory. It's inspiration

#

and there are many dots and puzzle pieces the same shapes and that fit the same patterns, as I also discussed

modest badger
#

Regardless, lore changes.

What Lolth was in 1e is not what she is now.

Tharizdun and the Elder Elemental God were not the same in AD&D, but are now.

Tasha and Iggwilv were seperate characters in AD&D, but are the same character now.

#

Or the fun 'Is Takhisis the same as Tiamat?' question where it's 'Yes, but no, but yes'

thick sentinel
#

I'm not making arguments for those, I'm specifically speaking to the problems of characterizing Tasha and Iggwilv as the same person

modest badger
#

This isn't the channel for such.

thick sentinel
#

thank you for your time

modest badger
#

Oh, Eladrin are another one that can drive you mad if you try and use lore from all the editions and connect it all.

calm crest
#

Given the recent psion UA and 5e’24’s willingness to reboot Greyhawk to the early 1e era, I am curious if a pre-metaplot version of Dark Sun will be released for 5e.

thick sentinel
#

I'll check it out. I didn't mean to find this out. It happened by reading and thinking

calm crest
#

Since I think 4e also rebooted the Dark Sun timeline? (Granted it bungled a lot of things about Athas.)

thick sentinel
#

If you'd like to know more about Tolkein's own inspiration for elves, he said and wrote that he concepted elves from a combination of .... wait for it ... Finnish and Welsh mythologies

modest badger
#

Looking into the creative origins and publication history of somehting in D&D can be fascinating, but remember that this doesn't then make current lore unofficial- it just helps to see how something ended up as it does now.

So in future you could frame things as 'Ah, well you see those two characters were originally never intended to be the same character, so there are some conflicts in the lore' but please do not state that they are not the same when they are so within official lore.

I could write essays on Tharizdun / Ghaunadaur/ EEG, or Takhisis and Tiamat, or so on. But it would also be false to say they are not currently the same in the lore.

#

As for actual real life mythology and folklore- that would be #non-dnd-topics

thick sentinel
#

I know; I feel that; I appreciate that

#

That said, when others bring it up, I'd like to continue to correct it in the best ways I can. I didn't start the conversation about Baba Yaga, I just saw a place to help with the lore

modest badger
#

Within D&D though, Baba Yaga is the (adoptive) mother of Iggwilv, who is Tasha, and who is the mother of Iuz with Graz'zt

thick sentinel
#

It's frustrating not-true but also true. I get it

calm crest
thick sentinel
#

We live in a world of half truths and must move on until changes are made, or they are not. I have heard that I should be the change I want to see in the world

modest badger
#

That is official lore- even if it doesn't match well with the original creative origins/inspiration. Because this is the D&D lore.

#

D&D Kelpies are not folklore kelpies, or so on with Formorians, Firbolg, Minotaurs, Medusa, and pretty much everything else in D&D. Can't stick to the original real myths and legends.

calm crest
#

In a setting of fiction, verisimilitude need not correspond to the truth of reality.

thick sentinel
#

Wouldn't it be interesting to document that drift? Officially or non-officially?
It would create a sort of provenance so that future generations could understand why

For example, I do know why the Baba Yaga connection was made. It was because Moldvay and Cook designed Karameikos to be the Byzantine empire solving a dispute between the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and the Teutonic knights -- in an inspirational sense. Lithuania, during the HRE-supported Teutonic invasions, was the last pagan state in Europe. They were a slavic people who themselves combined mythologies: the Slavic traditions and the Finnish works. Gygax took extra liberties to attemp the same parallels in Greyhawk

calm crest
#

Don’t get me wrong, it is interesting, it’s just that it’s a little outside the scope of this channel. If you want to talk about how older versions of characters were inspired or evolved, that might be more in line with #dnd-elder-editions?

thick sentinel
#

It doesnt fit there. It's lore, right? It's lore provenance

calm crest
#

This is by and large for current, up-to-date lore.

modest badger
#

This is for official lore. So, for this project, which will be mostly speculation it's actually probably better off as a personal blog.

thick sentinel
#

So the answer is it's interesting to document it unofficially, and leave future generations hanging, or expose even ourselves to more and more gradual changes over the years where the materials of provenance are lost

modest badger
#

For this channel if someone asks 'Is Tasha Iggwilv?' The answer will be 'Yes, since 2007 Expedition to Castle Greyhawk'.

The reasons for this- if cited from the authors themselves- can be included as interesting metatextual publication history, but again, it must be cited.

This isn't really the channel for speculation or opinion on the lore.

thick sentinel
#

I agree

#

Doesn't answer my question directly about documenting the drift, but it will suffice