#dnd-lore

1 messages · Page 76 of 1

reef cape
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Specifically with that context.

north vault
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I don't think that's how the setting works, in regards to faith. Being devoted to Valkur does not prevent one from making offerings or praying to Umberlee

jagged apex
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i am not saying it does

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i am saying that some who are particularly devout, like him would hold similar views towards umberlee and her faithful, thus would avoid praying to the wicked sea goddess

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i am not saying they are not able to do so, more so they would likely choose to not make offerings or prayers to umberlee

north vault
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Yes, I suppose some may feel that way. Those ones are courting death

glossy summit
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is Driz'zt dnd lore?

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Nice!

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What's his lore? ranger?

light cradle
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Hey are devils allowed to twist their deals as much as genies wish. I feel like they would have to or else nobody would make any deals with them. Where as a genie don't care about your satisfaction

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Like could a devil in response to “i wish for the ability to cure illness” to you something like you kill eveything you touch “curing” them of any illness by removing the person. Or would they actually give you the power to heal

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I mean feels like having to pay with your soul kinda balances the screwing you over scale

sharp owl
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Devils, being entities for whom the concept of law is a fundamental part of their makeup, are bound to the letter of their contracts down to the last full stop. However, they are not bound to the "spirit" of a contract
As such, if the wording of a contract leaves wiggle room for a devil to manipulate the outcome to their benefit, they will

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However, devils can't grant wishes, at least most can't

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A devil will offer only that which is in their power to fulfill

reef cape
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If the devil misbeheaves, if I remember my fiendish codex II correctly, you can bring this to court.

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A devil who misinterprets the contract is a devil about to be punished, while you will be getting restitutions

coarse hull
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Is the lore of the Greek and Egyptian and other real life pantheons the same in DnD or no, is it different?

jagged apex
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they are more fantastical versions and account for dnd's multiverse and it's lore and are not ment to be 1 to 1 with their irl mythology or religious counterparts, better to think of them as dnd's adaptations of these beings

crude blaze
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Yeah, it’s similar to how a lot of pop culture has their own representations of the gods

jagged apex
# coarse hull Is the lore of the Greek and Egyptian and other real life pantheons the same in ...

plus in some settings such as the forgotten realms they are known as a pantheon not tied to these places from our own world, example, the "greek" pantheon in dnd is known as the Olympian pantheon https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Olympian_pantheon with "greek pantheon" being an alternative less common name, and in the case of the egyptian one, they are known as the Mulhorandi pantheon https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mulhorandi_pantheon

crude blaze
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Biggest example I can think of is Marvel’s Thor and Loki, where they’re portrayed as siblings when in real Norse mythology Loki is Odin’s adopted brother and not Thor’s.

jagged apex
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the mulhorandi pantheon being specifically from dnd's version of earth when their faithful were abducted and enslaved by some mages from toril long ago, in on earth they were presumably if not out right the egyptian gods, as our world in the dnd multiverse has slight tweaks compared to our own history, where at one point the gods were real https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Earth

crude blaze
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The Mulhorandi pantheon are pretty much just portrayed like they were in Stargate

jagged apex
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like many things in dnd that are pulled from real world mythologies, is best to think of them adaptations and not expect them to be 1 to 1 as in some cases, like gnolls, they simply took the name from an existing folklore creature but the dnd version has nothing in common with the mythological creature of the same name, apart from said name

jagged apex
calm crest
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Kobolds are a better example of the D&D version drifting very far away from the mythological.

storm dagger
calm crest
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All Lord Dunsany really established is that they’re shaggy and live in the woods.

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And eat people.

jagged apex
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which kind of makes me a tad puzzled given how they have been made fiends in the latest monster manual which is ment to be setting agnostic, so not sure if this is just a change in continuity for the revised 5e or if it is ment to imply that by now gorellik has lost what ever worshipers he had or something

storm dagger
jagged apex
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well i am just saying, in 1e they even look kind of heyna men like, like if i looked at them i would not get the impression of them being a cross between a gnome and troll, so far as i know they might have simply taken the name from that source of inspiration

storm dagger
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The OD&D art looks like nothing in partiular.

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1e turned it into Hyena person.

calm crest
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The gnome/troll hybridization I believe is only verified in Mystara (due to them having been magically created by mortals rather than Immortals).

jagged apex
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ah, to be fair since was not around in the early days of dnd, farthest back i look into via the magic that is the internet is usually 1e, cuz i did not get into dnd until 5e and later learned/researched lore of the past editions

storm dagger
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Yeah that's fine.

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I was not around for that either, I just looked stuff up in the past and remembered the gnoll comment

jagged apex
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so i know next to nothing about the "edition" before that other than the very first version technically had been called chainmail, not sure if that is the same as od&d

storm dagger
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OD&D required Chainmail to play I recall

fallow leaf
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od&d had the alternative combat method which didn't need chainmail and was the d20 resolution method we're more or less familiar with today

calm crest
jolly loom
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Hey yall any and ideas for lore friendly peace domain cleric

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Forgotten realms setting for context

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Understandable have a nice day

serene crater
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quick question but asides from nautiloids, are other spelljammers common knowledge within FR?

jagged apex
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more do, but few have active ports for spelljammers but is generally something kept from the public

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least last i checked, the other major one on toril that i know of being in kara-tur

feral lintel
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Is there a place in any DnD setting thats kinda like Hollow Earth?

jagged apex
jagged apex
feral lintel
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Oh wow, thats quite fitting

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Also, an immortal who started life as a dino?

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wow

jagged apex
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hollow world seems to fill a similar role in mystara, looking at the page oldman linked

feral lintel
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gotcha. Are there any areas with megafauna though?

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Besides stuff like Chult

tall berry
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Not sure, but maybe Maztica?

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Been a long time since I looked at the Maztica setting.

jagged apex
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as both a primordial and deity, to my knowledge he is an immortal in dnd as broad as that term can be in some cases

jagged apex
feral lintel
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gotcha, trying to look for ideas to incorporate into Annam's Cradle

jagged apex
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ah, that can be pretty much anywhere that fits the criteria far as i know, thought of independant of a setting and is a more recent creation to my knowledge

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looking at the description, any "vast cavern" will do, unless i misunderstand what you mean

jagged apex
feral lintel
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what creatures are typically from there? Celestials im guessing

jagged apex
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very few are known, so plenty of room for homebrewing with the known ones able to serve as decent examples of life found there, a good point of refference if you ask me

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when the creatures listed last appeared they are simply outsiders, but far as i know they would not qualify as celestials, though i could be wrong on that, they are something else seems to be the implication

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like elementals of positive energy almost if that makes sense, idk is the closest way i can describe it as they have not appeared in published materials since 3e it seems

feral lintel
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Checked out Ravids, these are some wild guys

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one armed eel things

jagged apex
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they also can use their infused positive energy to animate objects in addition to just firing it out in jolts at enemies, which is neat and not something i think you see too often

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else seems potentially any creature you could find in either caverns and underground as well as forests and jungles could call such a place home

jagged apex
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in that same section further down there is also one called "Megafauna World Encounters" that could prove helpful

feral lintel
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Just to clarify, proto-dragons are the in between from Eodraco (dinos?) and the modern dragon creatures?

jagged apex
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but far as i can tell, eodraco are not dinos

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from what i can tell going by this in universe theory, the eodraco would be the sort of missing link between dinosaurs and dragon kind

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and unless i am mistaken, eodracos are part of the collective known as proto-dragons

verbal barn
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Is the book of ebon tides happening on the forgotten realms setting?

ionic rivet
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No - Ebon Tides takes place in the Plane of Shadow

verbal barn
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Is the Plane of Shadow the name of the setting?

ionic rivet
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That is where it is set (also note that this is a 3rd party setting so should not be considered an official D&D setting per se)

jagged apex
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far as i know it just happens to share a name with a past iteration of the shadowfell/an alternative name for the shadowfell

jagged apex
# verbal barn Is the Plane of Shadow the name of the setting?

looking into it, seems to be set in the shadowfell, though reffering to it by it's older name "the plane of shadow" but as undyingnoob said, is 3rd party, so likely there are elements that will not line up with published lore and should not expect things in it to be canonical to the shadowfell as presented in official published materials from wizards of the coast

ionic rivet
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A third-party take on a Shadowfell-like setting

broken merlin
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if I want to familiarise myself with D&D lore, what should I start with?

feral lintel
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The wiki

broken merlin
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just reading all the articles one by one? I thought maybe there's some particular book I could start with..

feral lintel
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we have over 50 years of lore

scarlet sigil
jagged apex
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it also serves as a good sort of source on many elements of the default cosmology do to it's setting agnostic nature, same with many of the things in the monster manual

jagged apex
feral lintel
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-# still over 50 dndLol
But yeah

raw wolf
jagged apex
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yeah unfortunately not every major lore figure got an entry in the lore glossary, but the wiki and the sources cited on it can help should the subject of interest not have a entry in the lore glossary, as if nothing new directly contradicts something from previous materials, the revised 5e and it's relation to previous 5e materials being no exception, it is still considered to be existing in the lore until confirmed otherwise by newer materials or statements

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the forgotten realms wiki is best as a sort of consolidation of sources to be used as a refference point or collection of other sources from over the years and editions

true solstice
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You know what I love about Kuo-Toa?

You can make anything into a new god

feral lintel
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This channel is for whats officially printed

true solstice
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Oh got it

broken merlin
tawny raven
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Does anyone have some fun facts about Carceri? It’s become my newest interest.

storm dagger
storm dagger
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Near all two way portals are heavily guarded by Demodands the Plane's self appointed Jailers.

severe basin
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How powerful was obox ob

severe basin
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Native to Carceri are the previously mentioned Demodands, created by an ancient Baernoloth, but his creation was considered a failure as the demodands leaned towards Chaos and the Baernoloths craved perfect neutral evilness
There are only 9,999 Demodands in existence (3,333 of each type), but this number cannot increase or decrease. If a demodand dies, it reforms in Carceri as a Farastu (the lowest class) Demodand and another demodand is promoted to fill its vacant position.
The weakest Demodand is CR 11 in 5e, so the demodands are pretty powerful.
Also, there are a LOT of worlds of the material plane, and 6 layers of Carceri, so you probably won't find them in large numbers while exploring

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Also, the baernoloth who created the demodands lives in Agathys, the center layer, but I'm not entirely sure which Agathys since there are multiple Agathyses (that's such a silly word)

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The multiverse is wack man

torn crypt
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can you all shoot me an idea or two for a backstory in the Forgotten Realms setting similar to my other character in the Exandria setting, for anyone familiar with the lore of both of them?

In the Call of the Netherdeep campaign, I had a Xhorhasian Half-Drow lady that was a college dropout of the Marble Tomes Conservatory in Rosohna, but uhh

y'know, drow in the Underdark are quite mean in comparison lol; are there any notable colleges in the Forgotten Realms setting??

cinder cloud
torn crypt
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i was just referred to this channel from over there 😭 i'll do some wiki reading,,,

cinder cloud
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We can certainly answer any questions you may have about lore. What you do with that is another story.

balmy pulsar
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Hey there Lore People! My question today is, are there any recorded downsides or detriments about being the chosen of a deity? Earlier deaths, subtle or overt madness, or anything else? Cheers!

balmy pulsar
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I am 🙂 Are there any recorded downsides in Lore to being the chosen of a deity?
(I already know one- in BG3, there's a specific chosen who seems to come with a fair few downsides!)

snow laurel
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Do you think they play ska or jazz in the city of brass?

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oh come on this server just censored me for naming the style of dance that ska fans do

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are you afraid of an efreet in a porkpie hat?

storm dagger
# severe basin How powerful was obox ob

Fairly powerful close to Demogorgon’s level. It’s currently weaker than it used to be after its death to the Queen of Chaos, enough that it’s not willing to challenge Demogorgon.

severe basin
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And wasn't demogorgon cr 24 in 3e?

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What was the lowest cr one, and what was the highest cr one?

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And what did the lowest cr one represent? Were they all meant to represent his full power or was one a lesser aspect and one a great aspect or what

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Isn't obox ob published in fiendish codex 1 with demogrogon

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Mm

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What was the cr 30 version of demogorgon about

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Like why was he cr 30

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Was it just another option

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Or was there a lore reason for super demogorgon

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So it's literally just the numbers tuned up

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A good point

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Just in case you wanted demogorgon as a challenge for level 30 pcs or some ig

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And obox ob is alive and well in 3e lore right

storm dagger
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The Fiendish codex books are explicitly aspects

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It’s stated after that the Codex 1 blocks are aspects too

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Obox-ob is dead, but one of his aspects survived his destruction and became the new Obox-Ob

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I know

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I know it was after the book was released they were said to be aspects like the Archdevils

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Yeah by the book writer

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Demogorgon was given a CR 32 in Dragon Mag by the writer of the Codexs

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His 5e version being 26 is fine with me with the max being 30

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Thanks 33 or 32 was my memory

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Though I personally would have done 27 and kept him a step above Orcus

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I assume the Demon Lords will be updated again in the future as is inevitable.

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Guessing Demogorgon’s gaze attacks will be updated to match the new MM versions

tawny raven
storm dagger
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Yeah it kind of is

severe basin
tawny raven
jagged apex
severe basin
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Carceri is one of the planes that does have its own fiend species

tawny raven
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Could you send me the names of some of them? It might help me with my side project i ’m working on.

jagged apex
jagged apex
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they were reintroduced to the 5e continuity in the 5e planescape books, they act as self proclaimed wardens of the prison plane and are the only ones that actually know where the only portal out of the plane is, cuz outside likely the realms of any gods there, depending on your edition and continuity as things like that have changed over the years, there is only 1 portal that allows you to leave the plane, is infinitely easier to enter carceri than it is to leave

calm crest
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Notably, the Demodands are limited in number—3,333 of each type, plus their leader—for only 10,000 are typically in existence, although more can be made spontaneously.

jagged apex
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carceri has demodans, the grey wastes aka hades has yugoloths, though many if not all of them have since migrated to gehenna, the hells have devils, and the abyss has demons

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though unless i am mistaken the proper term is subtypes, as all these are different kinds of fiends, sharing the very bare minimum trait of being natives of the lower planes, which is effectively what defines a fiend in dnd https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Fiend

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kind of like how humans and ethnicities work, but to an even greater extreme

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and even then it is at best a rough analogy or metaphor

calm crest
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Gehenna is now expressly the origin plane of Yugoloths, although they are prevalent in both Gehenna and Hades.

calm crest
solid mica
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I think I fully grasp what planes are, detached places from the material plane that can be explored and are sometimes inhabited by other worldly beings etc. However in 4+ years of playing this game…I’m gonna be so honest I have no idea what a realm is supposed to be in comparison to planes. Help me out?

feral lintel
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a realm is a smaller place within a plane

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the forgotten realms though is just the other name for the planet Toril

solid mica
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Okay but what are the requirements to be a, “realm” and not just like…a normal area you can explore

feral lintel
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its the same as city, county, etc

solid mica
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kind of a grandiose name for something so normal lol, no wonder i’ve been confused

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that’s sort of the only place i’ve ever heard it, ya fooled me

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but fair enough

feral lintel
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yeah, it would be the same as nation, county, city, etc

storm dagger
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There are Divine Realms but they are pretty much a space of one of the Outer Planes claimed by a deity to serve as their home and an afterlife for their followers

solid mica
feral lintel
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the official definition of a realm is a kingdom

storm dagger
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If the governor of California was a deity and could restrict access to it

solid mica
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i’m kinda getting conflicting info here lmao

storm dagger
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And it didn’t really take up space

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Yeah no conflict

solid mica
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“it’s sort of like a kingdom”

“It’s not a kingdom”

feral lintel
solid mica
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oh dang, i can’t read

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my bad there is no conflict lmao

feral lintel
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nobody said it wasnt a kingdom

solid mica
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^

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my mistake

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alright well, idk why i expected something grander, maybe bc 99% of people would say kingdom or city or country before realm but so be it

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thx

feral lintel
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realm is just a grandoise way of referring to it

solid mica
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dnd lore and the endless struggle of over complication

storm dagger
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Not really in this case

solid mica
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just a jest

feral lintel
narrow imp
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Excluding Vecna; the 3 2014 expansion books are based on the 3 strongest archmages in the universe right?

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I was talking about xanthar not volo

jagged apex
severe basin
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Tasha is probably one of the strongest in terms of magical power since her stat block has wish

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I am curious though

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How powerful is Mordenkainen? He does have 7th level magic at least right since he's a planar traveler?

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What does that even MEAN

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Mortal limits for power and all that

severe basin
severe basin
severe basin
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It is semi lore related since i want to know how powerful exactly these lore characters were but alright

jagged apex
severe basin
jagged apex
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yes, but that does not always translate to anything mechanical other than having access to the spell

severe basin
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I mean they can't have it in their spellbook and be able to cast it from that at least

jagged apex
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mechanics and lore are seperate because they are not always intertwined, plus anything with a statblock is merely something that the players are ment to have a fighting chance against in the conventional sense, there is plenty of stuff that is far stronger that either never or these days has not gotten a statblock because they are just too powerful in the lore

severe basin
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Yeah but that doesn't happen for humans

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There's no fellow human/humanoid race member that is too powerful to have a stat block

jagged apex
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except for when it does

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just cuz we don't have examples does not mean it can't exist

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but even then the point remains that statblocks do not really reflect the lore that much, besides archmages are in no way strictly human only

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even tasha was raised and taught magic by a hag, the infamous baba yaga

severe basin
jagged apex
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plus now she is technically not even human anymore

severe basin
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Huh

modest badger
jagged apex
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sorry

severe basin
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I've never read the adventure before I just knew this my bad

jagged apex
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but either way, the point is that statblock does not automatically mean much if anything in the lore, many beings are much more powerful in the lore than they are mechanically

severe basin
jagged apex
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good examples of this are the tarrasque and demogorgon

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also you don't have to keep pinging me when we are literally talking back to back

severe basin
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I don't have to but since you're in the chat anyways and haven't asked me to disable my pings before I like saving myself the effort

severe basin
jagged apex
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heck, just as an example, elminster does not have a 2014 sourcebook named after him and he is easily one of the strongest mages, especially archmages of all time, especially in comparison to the like of mordenkainen or tasha

jagged apex
modest badger
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But yes- while Lore and Mechanics can overlap, there are points were mechanics are mechanics.
Sometimes spells change levels through out editions. So the question of 'What level is X, to cast Y' won't always apply. The question of 'Who is more powerful' ends up being subjective too at times, falling into the old comic book adage of 'Who ever the author wants to be for that adventure'

The answer in many cases is simply 'They are powerful'.

jagged apex
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everything else largely depends on context or how you are choosing to determine who is more powerful

severe basin
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I know there's only one demogorgon and I also know they nerfed a lot of really brutal abilities from older editions to fit 5e design philosophy and that's disappointing

feral lintel
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Again, mechanics =/= lore

jagged apex
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that is again not lore

severe basin
jagged apex
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nobody is arguing that

severe basin
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This entire thing is you guys saying that I'm wrong for saying tasha is a powerful wizard for being able to cast wish

jagged apex
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only noble genies for example can innately cast wish, and those are like the 1% of the entire genie population from what i am aware of

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nobody is saying tasha is not a powerful wizard

modest badger
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Yep. That it does. But let's get this channel focused again on the lore. As pointed out, #dnd-elder-editions would be a good channel for discussing older stat blocks or how older editions handled certain mechanics.

Or simply #dnd-discussion

severe basin
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I'm just trying to wrap my head around how powerful mordenkainen and tasha are in lore

feral lintel
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powerful

modest badger
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Powerful.

severe basin
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I guess it doesn't matter too much once you can cast wish

jagged apex
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look at their feats, they are powerful in so far as they are known canonically to travel the multiverse as any archmage that is worth their power

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wish is not even the most powerful spell, magic use to have far more powerful spells that mortals could use

feral lintel
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cough Karsus

severe basin
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What edition are those spells even fromm

feral lintel
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None

modest badger
feral lintel
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Its just a lore thing

severe basin
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What editions lore is it from

jagged apex
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but in certain setttings like the forgotten realms those have long since been banned do the acts of the one known as Karsus

severe basin
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What edition lore do beyond 9th Level spells show up in

modest badger
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Or events like the Twin Cataclysms in Greyhawk

jagged apex
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lore and mechanics are not conjoined at the hips, one can easily exist independantly of the other

severe basin
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In what edition is the concept of 10th 11th and 12th level spells introduced

jagged apex
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different editions largely deal with changes to mechanics and changes to lore are secondary but certain things since they are not directly contradicted or are even refferenced, carrie over

calm crest
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Worth noting that on Athas, spells beyond level 9 exist, combining magic and psionics. On Cerilia realm magic exists, where regents can manipulate entire countries with special bloodline spells.

severe basin
jagged apex
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not really

severe basin
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I mean

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Not like a 1:1 ratio of goodness for that but

jagged apex
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that is a matter of opinion

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you could make one with out any consideration for lore

modest badger
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At times it is simply 'These are spells beyond normal character abilities'. Not '9ths' just 'Really powerful'.

jagged apex
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yeah things like "X level spell" is not even diagetic ie something that is said in universe

feral lintel
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-# its kinda backwards to stat out the gods themselves anyway

modest badger
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Mechanically, 3e had 10th level spells in books like exalted deeds. That however, is mechanics. Those spells still exist in lore, even if there is no mechanics for casting them in other editions.

severe basin
feral lintel
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Again, mechanics =/= lore

calm crest
dark comet
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(Epic Level Handbook, not Exalted Deeds. But really small semantic there.)

jagged apex
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how many times do we have to say it, mechanics is not the same thing as lore, is not that hard a concept to understand and is getting frustrating

severe basin
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I'm not saying that mechanics are lore

modest badger
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It is frustrating when mechanics don't reflect lore well, but this is the lore channel.

severe basin
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That

feral lintel
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CR is mechanics

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not lore

jagged apex
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then why are you saying it here?

modest badger
jagged apex
severe basin
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Tbh it wasn't meant to become a discussion it started from a brief comment on how tasha having wish makes her a powerful wizard

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But I digress

jagged apex
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having a specific spell does not determine the strength of a mage

modest badger
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Best just to move on now.

severe basin
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I'm not getting into this agaon

vital cloudBOT
jagged apex
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fun fact, tasha's original name, or at least when she was oerth, was Iggwilv

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i forget when she started going by tasha though, like in universe

marsh grotto
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Enough people mispronounced Iggwilv, and she just went “Yk what, Tasha is fine.”

severe basin
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I was imagining it as like

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Going to interact with real humans for the first time and being worried they might make fun of her name and taking a different one

modest badger
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Yep. Tasha was Iggwilv from 1e to 4e.
Tasha's hideous laughter was a fan created spell by a little girl.
3.5 Dragon Magazine decided that Tasha was Iggwilv, her pseudonym when she was undercover and tailing mordenkainen. This is also when she became Baba Yaga's adoptive daughter.

jagged apex
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well from what i recall she did use it as an alias on multiple occasions, i just forget and or am otherwise unsure when she first started using it

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ah, so it was during her oerth days

severe basin
modest badger
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(Fun fact, Iggwilv was also used he/him pronouns in her very first debut in the tournament version of lost caverns of Tsojcanth)

jagged apex
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lol

severe basin
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Queer tasha?

feral lintel
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always has been

modest badger
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These are clearly retcons over editions, but I like to incorporate some of them.

calm crest
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Her daughter’s name is Drelnza, and her son is named Iuz. Not the most unusual names.

jagged apex
#

well more likely the character was not fully fleshed out and at the time may have been a one off or was reusing a name

severe basin
#

Queer tasha is funny to imagine though

jagged apex
#

cuz as i recall that tournement version was way back in 1e or 2e

modest badger
#

1e

calm crest
#

Module S4.

jagged apex
#

same with the tomb of horrors if i am not mistaken

calm crest
#

There are plenty of canonically genderqueer characters—Elminster and Corellon, as two examples.

severe basin
#

Ik corellon but elminster? I know nothing about eliminster so please do elaborate

jagged apex
#

i imagine they did not flesh out things until after they became popular or became more concerned with keeping continuity as consistent as they could

feral lintel
severe basin
#

Huh

calm crest
#

Elminster has lived as both a man and a woman and has been known to travel in both forms in the modern day.

feral lintel
#

Old lore is wild

#

-# ohmygod is he freaking Fate Merlin or something

calm crest
#

Elminster spent multiple years as a woman on at least two or three occasions.

severe basin
#

Didn't they turn bigby into a goblin or a gnome or something in bigbys glory of the giants even though his previous race was something different

calm crest
#

Gnome.

#

Former human.

feral lintel
#

Hes a human turned gnome

severe basin
#

What was he previously

#

A human

modest badger
feral lintel
#

Something about only having a druid on hand instead of a cleric

calm crest
#

Unlike Otto, who was retconned from human mage into dwarf bard.

jagged apex
crude blaze
feral lintel
#

Interesting dndThink

severe basin
#

That's wild not gonna lie

crude blaze
#

Cuz apparently being a woman makes you more scholarly or something

calm crest
#

He also was a female drow for a while.

feral lintel
#

Old lore is wild

severe basin
#

Old lore is wild indeed what the hell

#

This is hilarious

jagged apex
#

apparently as a woman elminster went by Elmara according to the forgotten realms wiki at least

severe basin
#

A literal goddess comes down to earth to trans this guy to make him better at magic

#

That is the wildest thing I've heard in this channel

calm crest
#

Notably, Elminster and Corellon are the only two NPCs in the DMG lore glossary that pointedly do not specify pronouns.

severe basin
#

They gave corellon pronouns in every other book and then realized that made no sense

modest badger
#

Yeeah, Greenwood feels that women were more mystical and/or being a woman helps you be closer to a goddess.

Having read that section, Elminster/Elara did seem to actually enjoy being a woman though, implying El is somewhat Enby.

jagged apex
feral lintel
#

Enby GuraHuhConfused

calm crest
modest badger
crude blaze
#

Or at the very least a little fluid

jagged apex
#

i'd say probably fluid through at since to my knowledge no depiction of him ever makes a fuss over people just assuming male pronouns since he is most often physically a male

modest badger
#

On a similar note:
See this forum post on Elistraae and the Changedance http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=56#159733

Yes, you heard me right: there now ARE a few males among her church, but to enter it they have all “Danced The Changedance” and spent time as female, just as Mystra caused Elminster to spend time as Elmara - - and for the same reasons: greater understanding and sensitivity of “the life of the other gender.” One cannot truly feel the Divine Dance of Eilistraee PROPERLY except as a female, and so her (still very rare, few, and generally secretive about it) male priests must spend some time as a female (not just for the duration of a ritual, but they must do some everyday living as a female). The most accomplished drow, elf, half-elf, and human male priests seem to feel the need to take female form for some days every few years or so (if they wish to “cleave more fully to the Goddess” and thus rise in levels), and most spend longer and longer times in female form. Not all female priests of the Goddess fully trust the males, and they don’t tend to rise much in the church hierarchy (no matter what character levels they achieve).

crude blaze
#

Honestly a little surprising how open minded of EG imo, considering the history of some of the big names of older editions and how they see things like gender and race.

calm crest
jagged apex
#

and given how bigotted and otherwise not so open minded people of the realms are known for being

modest badger
#

I see Corellon as more 'gender abolitionist' and Elistraee as 'supportive of all genders, conforming or not'.

jagged apex
#

from what i am aware corellon mainly took on male pronouns and such when lolth, before she was called lolth, took a female form as they two were suppose to be a sort of duality of the elven people

modest badger
#

Corellon was stuck with he/him pronouns in 1e, but even then they actually put "he" in quotes, showing that it wasn't a perfect fit. (Before folk were more comfortably with singular they and used 'he' as the neutral pronoun)

crude blaze
modest badger
#

Corellon Larethian represent the highest ideals of elvenkind: "he" is skilled in all the arts and crafts, and is the patron of music, poetry, and magic. Corellon is alternatively male or female, both or neither. "
1e, 1980, Deities and Demigods. The "he" in quotation marks is from the text

crude blaze
jagged apex
#

i forget if when lolth aka Araushnee took on a static form if that in it of itself is what effected corellon of it was because she convinced other elves to do the same

calm crest
#

I just think it’s interesting that the 2024 lore sections for Elminster and Corellon completely avoid using any pronoun in a way distinct from the writing style of the others. Since Corellon has always been gender non-conforming, that’s less surprising, but I’m glad that they did so for Elminster, since that part of the old mage isn’t as common knowledge.

crude blaze
jagged apex
#

like i get what you guys are saying as the meta reason behind it regarding corellon, but am struggling to remember the bits of the in universe explanation i am thinking of, assuming i am not mistaken

modest badger
# jagged apex i forget if when lolth aka Araushnee took on a static form if that in it of itse...

That's how the latest lore explains the percieved masculinity of corellon, yep.

Meta wise, it's because 1e used 'he' as neutral (and the fact it was in quotations meant a lot), and later editions kept with that until 5e has tried to avoid using pronouns at all for Corellon. But yes, it's in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes where the lore explains why Corellon is often referred to with he/him pronouns.

crude blaze
#

Some of the old lore I’ve read in the past definitely described them as being very fickle too, which just plays into their constantly changing and fluid nature.

#

Fluid in form and in personality

jagged apex
#

like legit can't remember if the effect was do to Araushnee herself doing so, as they were more or less married and otherwise being to parts of the same hole symbolically, or if it was because a large array of elves did it and as the main god of all elves, that effected him

dark comet
#

The curse of an unrestricted free will, but a restricted expression of self.

crude blaze
#

They felt betrayed by their partner and their children.

jagged apex
#

yeah cuz as i recall do to their creation myth, and it seemingly having some credit to it, the first elves, primal elves were basically mini versions of corellon as they were literally formed from his blood

modest badger
# jagged apex like legit can't remember if the effect was do to Araushnee herself doing so, as...

It's implied.

One of these beings, although privileged to be elevated above the rest of the primal elves, was not satisfied with being one of Corellon's trusted underlings.** She -for she had declared herself thus- saw in the multiverse around them other beings making an impact in various worlds. The entity who called herself Lolth spoke to the other new gods and wove an enticing tale of how the elves could attain superiority if only they could relinquish a bit of their individual freedom. Together, united in purpose, the gods could be the vanguard of this effort. Wasn't losing freedom to achieve greatness worth the price? Through this argument, Lolth persuaded the primal entities to take static forms, largely resembling what elves look like today, and thereby turn away from the example of Corellon's wild, ever-shifting ways.**

As these primal reflections of Corellon changed their nature and defined themselves, they came to see CorelIon and Lolth in new lights. They now viewed Corellon as their father, the one who had sired them, and Lolth as their mother, the one who set them on the path to their destiny.
Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes pg 36

jagged apex
# crude blaze They felt betrayed by their partner *and* their children.

must have hurt even more so when she revealed that the issue as to why she betrayed him, before she was banished and became lolth, was basically an idealogical difference, like the fact that she could have anything she wanted if she asked, but felt it did not mean anything if she simply asked and that it she had to seize it herself for it to mean anything

modest badger
#

MToF is somewhat legacy'd now, but that was the lore from that text.
I do find it funny how it was Lolth who gendered the elves and Corellon Disapproved.

jagged apex
#

cuz i recall he basically asked why she betrayed him, and that if she wanted anything all she needed to do was ask him, but she then said that was literally the whole problem

#

like he was perfectly willing to give her anything and anything, but she felt that it just being given to you made it not really mean much of anything, if i am not mistaken that is

#

cuz as i understand it because of that Araushnee was always selfish and power hungry and that only grew as time passed, especially once she became lolth

#

like from my understanding she believed the only meaningful things are those you take yourself

#

which is kind of funny, cuz as a goddess now she kind of has to rely on being given power from her worshipers, especially if she goes through with her ultimate plan to hurt corellon, which from what i am aware is basically twisting all elves in her image

#

guess her pettiness out weighs her principles

severe basin
#

Beholder reproduce by dreaming each other into existence right

jagged apex
#

from what i recall in some older editions, or at least with some of their lesser kin, some kindso of beholder-kin, reproduced a more traditional way

severe basin
#

Huh?

#

Beholders hate beholders who don't look exactly like them though

feral lintel
#

keyword: beholder

#

not beholder-kin

severe basin
#

Yeah

#

A lot of beholderkin are just made by beholders ability to dream other beholders intk existence

jagged apex
crude blaze
#

The more I look at the new Lore Glossary, the more I wonder what sorts of future modules are being teased in it

jagged apex
severe basin
#

I don't care about beholderkin only the real deal beholders

#

And they can only reproduce through dreaming

#

Hm

calm crest
#

Beholders have at least three extant means of reproduction: reality-warping dreams, the asexual budding from the tongue, and even egg-laying.

severe basin
#

The wiki only mentions one of these

calm crest
#

The oviparous version may only be the case on Mystara, but that’s the most recent version of it for the setting, since the Known World hasn’t been updated since the RC.

main canopy
#

What would happen to a myconid colony if their Sovereign was kidnapped or otherwise made to disappear? Would a new sovereign just appear out of the existing myconids or something?

#

I am expanding on the myconid sovereign in ||Rime of the Frostmaiden|| by adding a sidequest where the party encounters the colony leaderless and want to know a lore-accurate way to depict the situation.

severe basin
fervent ridge
#

Did you know dragonborn culture favor certain classes over others? They prefer sorcerers, and wizards as their study/ connection to the arcane is a trait many dragonborn admire, as opposed to warlocks, who usually end up as outcasts due to their deals with uncontrollable forces. Few dragonborn actually have strong opinions of the gods, thus paladins, and clerics are supposedly very rare, but the ones that do exist are very loyal to thier religions. They do also have a intense hatred for psionics, so keep that in mind when making spell lists.

fallow leaf
jagged apex
#

well more so it was more of a private matter

#

least that is how it was as i recall

#

and even then it was only somewhat frowned upon by the most traditional clans, which would only be a portion of the dragonborn population at most, as they while the majority are not the only race that dwells in tymanther

jagged apex
#

basically they avoid it and if they have it tend to avoid using it do to what they believe it to be, they do not hate it let alone intensely

#

you may wanna double check your sources as it seems you may have gotten some of your info mixed up dinoboy

teal rock
#

How long does it take for a fiend to appear in the Hells or the Abyss after dying in the Material Plane?

storm dagger
#

The lowest ranks seem to be an exception however

#

Lemures, Imps, Spinned Devils, and Bearded Devils for the devils. Manes, Dretches and Quasits for the demons do not revive when killed on other planes

#

Lemures do revive when killed in Hell unlike the others.

timid tendon
severe basin
#

How many of the 5e playable races actually exist in the forgotten realms

#

Are there any notable ones that don't

#

And to be clear this is just out of curiosity

#

So I'm not looking for an answer like it's up to the DM or something

storm dagger
severe basin
#

What about the simic hybrids

cinder cloud
storm dagger
#

Warforged have appeared in the realms they are much rarer than in Eberron but exist

cinder cloud
#

Technically any species could reside on Toril, but they're originally from somewhere else

severe basin
storm dagger
#

I don’t know what a Simic Hybrid is, but it probably has a place in the realms

jagged apex
#

those from setting specific sourcebooks it can depend on the species in question

jagged apex
cinder cloud
#

But creatures from other material planes are exceedingly rare

severe basin
#

Possible yes but like does it happen has it happened is the question

#

Do we have any official counts of warforged being in the forgotten realms

storm dagger
#

Yes

severe basin
#

Oh?

jagged apex
cinder cloud
severe basin
#

Okay fine

jagged apex
severe basin
#

Mmm

cinder cloud
#

The bottom line is that there a likely handful of individuals from other material planes that arrived on Toril at some point or another.

storm dagger
#

Pretty much if it exists in D&D you can find it in the realms

#

Though it maybe hard to find

cinder cloud
severe basin
#

Okay well here's a slight different question then
How many new playable races were introduced in 5e that weren't mentioned in previous editions

cinder cloud
storm dagger
#

The MTG ones

jagged apex
#

though some things that are exclusive to say the mtg settings, are likely not in the forgotten realms but certain ones that have counterparts like minotaurs, centaurs, and saytrs do just not as prevented in those sources

cinder cloud
#

And even then not all

severe basin
#

Which mtg ones? Were leonin a thing in dnd before theros?

cinder cloud
jagged apex
cinder cloud
severe basin
#

Fairy were in the mm

#

Were harengon in the mm?

jagged apex
#

no, they are not in either

cinder cloud
jagged apex
#

assuming by MM you mean Monster Manual

severe basin
#

So they're completely new to 5e never even before mentioned

severe basin
severe basin
#

I mean like

#

Forgotten realms csnon

cinder cloud
jagged apex
#

correct, fairies in dnd did not exist prior to 5e, similar creatures did, but nothing that were actually called fairies as a species

#

the closest were sprites and pixies, which as i recall are distantly related to fairies in dnd

severe basin
#

For some reason I have trouble believing that the word fairy is new to 5e

#

But alright

cinder cloud
#

Also fairies are not in the MM as far as I can tell

jagged apex
#

not the word, but faries as a species

severe basin
#

What about as a monster in previous mms

jagged apex
#

closest thing prior was just a collective term for fey

severe basin
#

I thought it was spelled "faerie" as the collective term for fey

jagged apex
#

as i said the fairy as a species or even just a creature did not exist in dnd's history, at least to my knowledge until they came out in 5e

jagged apex
cinder cloud
#

Faeries are specific creatures as of WBtW

jagged apex
#

"fairy" spelled in that way is a specific species that was introduced in 5e and to my knowledge did not exist in published materials prior

severe basin
jagged apex
#

yes but faerie =/= fairy

#

they sound the same but they are very different terms

severe basin
#

I heard somewhere that fourth edition renamed the "plane of shadow" and "plane of faerie" to the faewild and shadowfell and that 5e kept those names

cinder cloud
#

Yes that's correct

severe basin
jagged apex
#

the feywilds was previously the plane of faerie and the shadowfell was previously known as the plane of shadow

severe basin
#

Or is it just coincidence

jagged apex
cinder cloud
jagged apex
#

just based on context clues

severe basin
cinder cloud
#

Fae = fey

#

Realm of fey folk, more or less

cinder cloud
jagged apex
#

or as some may call it "the fey realm" but official alternative names to the feywild, least that are listed are "Plane of Faerie" and "Isan Meidan"

severe basin
#

Isan Meidan

#

Is that what it's called in Sylvan or something

jagged apex
#

far as i know the feywilds aka plane of faerie was not a concreate thing until 4e

#

idk

severe basin
#

Really? Rhe shadowfel was in older editions though

severe basin
jagged apex
#

yes, but far as i know in prior editions was just a name, we knew little if anything about it

jagged apex
cinder cloud
#

But back to the Realms, a lot of folks consider it the "kitchen sink" of settings but that doesn't mean it literally has everything in D&D. While there are small handfuls of individuals that have traveled to the Realms at any given point in time, they are not native and they may have since returned, passed away, etc. So given enough time and effort, could you find an individual of a given species on Toril? Maybe. Maybe not.

severe basin
#

Okay good to know

#

So odds are you won't find like a simic hybrid or a leonin in forgotten realms

cinder cloud
#

Extremely rare

severe basin
#

Unless you spend a really really really long time looking and get lucky

cinder cloud
#

But possible, I guess

#

Planar travel is a thing

severe basin
#

Leonin feel like they could be in forgotten realms without being immersion breaking

severe basin
cinder cloud
#

Your Realms can have whatever you like

severe basin
#

I'm not running a forgotten realms game I'm just curious

cinder cloud
severe basin
#

Ah yes the good old anything can happen if the authors want it to

#

Nothing wrong with that though

cinder cloud
#

Officially though leonin are not from the Realms

severe basin
#

Good to know

jagged apex
severe basin
#

Dragonlance is connected to the forgotten realms right

#

Since it has tiamat and bahamut (even if they go by different names)

#

Or does it have a different cosmology

jagged apex
#

no, that is a seperate setting, but you can get there via planar travel and spelljaming as it is part of the same multiverse, unlike the mtg stuff

severe basin
jagged apex
#

dragonlance is the setting of the world of krynn

#

in published materials their dragonlance counterparts are aspects of their more widely known aspects as tiamat and bahamut

severe basin
#

Let me pull up my spekljammers book

cinder cloud
jagged apex
#

by which i mean they are known on most worlds as Tiamat and Bahamut respectively, but on on krynn they are known as Takhisis and Paladine respectively

severe basin
#

The astral adventurers guide is not helpful

#

It literally just shows realmspace and doomspace

cinder cloud
#

Yes, it's illustrative but not exhaustive

jagged apex
#

it actually is, just does not spell everything out to you in detail, but gives the basic knowledge and tools needed

severe basin
jagged apex
#

it is basically just to get you to understand what spelljamming is

severe basin
#

And eberron?

jagged apex
#

the mtg settings are considered far as we know to be in a sperate multiverse

#

eberron, is hidden away deep in the ethereal plane of the dnd multiverse

severe basin
#

Huh

jagged apex
#

and within it has a self contained cosmology, is basically a the largest and most demiplane ever

severe basin
#

Where do the souls of eberron people go when they die

#

Does eberrron have its own afterlife in the ethereal world

cinder cloud
severe basin
#

This says that only nalfeshnee demon exist in this place

jagged apex
#

as i said, eberron has a self contained cosmology

#

ie within that setting rather than using the same planes of existance as most other settings do, they have their own exclusive to it

severe basin
#

I'm just wondering

#

Is only one type of demon canon to eberron

jagged apex
#

there are many demons in eberron technically

severe basin
#

It says only nalfeshnee inhabit dolurrh

#

Mmm

#

I see

jagged apex
#

dolurrh is a specific plane within eberron's self contained cosmology

severe basin
#

But all of eberrons cosmology exists inside the ethereal yeah?

#

It says sometimes Dolurrh is merged with the shadowfell

jagged apex
#

it exists within the setting of eberron, which itself is within the ethereal plane

#

think of the setting and it's cosmology as being in a massive cosmic bubble, and then put that bubble in the ethereal plane to where it is hidden away from the rest of the multiverse

#

the setting is in the ethereal plane, but that does not make everything within that setting ethereal

severe basin
#

We don't care about that

jagged apex
#

thing is when talking about eberron it come to where major notable differences exist between as created and as published by wizards of the coast, they have their own continuity that they publish and work off of, where as keith baker, the setting's creator, has his own continuity and is largely serpeate from the rest of the dnd multiverse, like keith baker to my knowledge never intended eberron or it's people to travel to other settings or vice versa, that is something wizards of the coast did with their version of the setting for published materials

severe basin
#

Ah

#

In what book is eberron mentioned to be apart of the ethereal

jagged apex
#

much like how ed greenwoods has his own version of the realms that he works on regularly, where some things are not included when they adapt it for publication or even are simply changed

#

"Fizban's treasury of dragons" to quote "The myths of Eberron describe the involvement of the three Progenitor Dragons in that world’s creation: Siberys, the Dragon Above; Khyber, the Dragon Below; and Eberron, the Dragon Between. These godlike beings are said to have created a microcosm of the multiverse in the depths of the Ethereal Plane, sequestered away from the Outer Planes and all the influence of the gods and other cosmic powers. Viewed through the lens of “Elegy for the First World,” Eberron is thus not actually a fragment of the First World, but a second-generation derivative of that original realm—yet even Eberron is profoundly shaped by dragons." end quote

#

and far as i know, no info regarding the setting since that book's release has ever contradicted it

severe basin
#

You know the creator of the setting wanting eberron to be independent and not wanting travel to it from forgotten realms to be possible contradicts that in my book

jagged apex
#

this is in the begiing of that book regarding some settings in relation to the elegy of the first world and dragons

jagged apex
severe basin
#

Mmm

jagged apex
#

if wanting to know about stuff in keith's own canon for the setting, you are better off using his blog as the main reference point as he often answers questions regarding the lore, such as when certain things were reintroduced to 5e, such as gem dragons and spelljamming and how he'd handle them in his setting, but that is technically seperate from the published version where those subjects are not really addressed how they would fit into the setting if at all

severe basin
#

So, which settings are you canonically able to cast planeshift to sigil and end up in sigil in

jagged apex
#

the book you have, unless it is 3rd party, likely is specific to the continuity published by wizards of the coast

severe basin
jagged apex
#

far as i know, any, even eberron, at least in published materials and the continuity of them for 5e

severe basin
#

Isn't eberrons adventure literally just a level 1 adventure to introduce the party to the setting idk if talking about the setting lore and how it relates to the cosmology relates to that adventure at all

jagged apex
#

besides, far as i know, eberron is the only setting in published materials that has a self-contained cosmology model, all others to my knowledge use the great wheel cosmology in 5e

severe basin
#

What about dark sun

jagged apex
#

far as i know dark sun is more or less the same, but is kind of disconnected from the ethereal plane from what i recall

#

but far as i know it does not technically use a self-contained cosmology

severe basin
#

Why do the gods never visit the dark sun setting do they just not like it or does the ethereal disconnect stop them from it

jagged apex
#

they abandon the setting long ago do to what was done that made the setting as it is these days, they abandoned it, and honestly is little to no reason for them to visit especially if they are now being worshiped

#

least from my understanding

severe basin
#

Let me just read up on dark sun real quick

jagged apex
#

like there use to be gods in that setting, but they do to acts that effected the world it caused the gods to turn their back on it

severe basin
#

What's the best place to read up on dark sun

#

It ain't on the forgotten realms wiki thats for sure

jagged apex
severe basin
#

Oh there's a dark sun wiki nice

jagged apex
#

is likely not on the forgotten realms wiki as it has not relation to the realms in any direct way be it characters or other entities

severe basin
#

Yep

jagged apex
#

far as i know the older sourcebooks are still the only things we have regarding it outside of what few mention to remind us it still exists in the 5e continuity exist

severe basin
#

Yeah all we got for dark sun in 5e was a brief paragraph

#

In the dmg

jagged apex
#

only thing we have for 5e specifically to my knowledge so far is the brief description from the settings table in the 2024 dmg, to quote "Heroes make their mark on a postapocalyptic world defiled by magic and forsaken by the gods." end quote

severe basin
#

Yeah that's why I needed a better place to read up on it lol people tell me that the forgotten realms wiki is the best place to find official 5e lore but I figured probably not for other settings

jagged apex
#

so for the time being all we know is the barest of bones

severe basin
#

Dark sun setting book when?

jagged apex
#

otherwise you have to look at older materials from past editions and use critical thinking or go to 3rd party books

severe basin
#

Anyways aren't the thri kreen from dark sun

#

Oh

#

Someone told me they were from dark sun

jagged apex
severe basin
#

I see

jagged apex
#

they might have first appeared in that setting, which could be what they ment

severe basin
#

I'm gonna go read up on dark sun real quick I might be back with more questions

severe basin
jagged apex
#

to be fair i said might, as i was not sure when i typed it and hit enter

severe basin
#

Are playable orcs new to 5e?

#

Full orcs

jagged apex
#

else it could simply be a misconception

#

far as i know orcs were playable in past editions, just not a typical option

severe basin
#

Yeah sorry a lot of my questions are caused by 5e books leaving things out and older books filling them in so a lot of my lore questions sometimes devolve into asking about what was present in older books my bad

jagged apex
#

a good rule of thumb is that unless newer lore contradicts it, older lore is still valid to fill in any details or gaps in newer materials, but do accept that some things are flat out left vague to be up to interpretation and are not necessarily gunna be fully detailed in the lore

#

like i got into dnd via 5e and worked my way backwards when learning the lore, back when 2014 was the only version of 5e

severe basin
#

The wiki says that gods ever having been a thing in athas was new to 4e

#

And that in previous editions gods were never mentioned at all

jagged apex
#

well 5e now implies they were still at one point a thing, else it would be hard for them to foresake it

severe basin
#

Huh

jagged apex
#

so that is likely one of few 4e details that were carried over, unless i am mistaken

#

especially since they have yet to explore the setting fully at this time but wanted to assure people it still exists in the current continuity

severe basin
#

So 5e just ignores this setting entirely except to retcon gods into the lore

jagged apex
#

no

#

not mentioning it outside of passing much is different from ignoring it

severe basin
#

So 5e just adds gods to its lore acknowledges it's existence and then does nothing else with it

jagged apex
#

they at least acknowledge it exists and inform newer readers of the basic description for if they wanna use it out of any established setting at their table, where differences are bound to happen

jagged apex
# severe basin So 5e just adds gods to its lore acknowledges it's existence and then does nothi...

cuz they have yet to decide to put both the time, care, and money into making a complete setting campaign guide, as some older settings were rooted in things that have become far out dated or were rooted in less than kind stereotypes and may wish to be reimagined so that it can be enjoyed by all and not just those familiar with it at the expense of those who those stereotypes would basically be insulting, like i said you can probably find 3rd party 5e sources, but currently in official published materials, all we have is the description and acknowledgement of it as still existing in the current version of the multiverse, in what capacity we don't know

#

and less adds gods and more so carries over the implication of there having once been gods involved with the world of Athas

severe basin
#

I'm reading the old lore and there really isn't much mention of anything to do with gods at all

#

But 5e kind of clearly says "There were once gods. They are gone now"

#

Which just feels wrong

jagged apex
#

either way it does not really change the important fact that there are no gods to help the mortals of athas especially in it's more present point in time

#

so in the end, in that regard, whether there ever were gods on not involved with that world is not exactly changing anything about what it is now, either way the world became postapocalyptic

severe basin
#

It doesn't matter too much but I'm allowed to be annoyed by things that don't matter too much when they feel off

jagged apex
#

not saying you are not, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but what is stated in published materials, is what it is for the time being

severe basin
#

I'd be less annoyed by it if they made a dark sun setting book and elaborated on this addition to old lore though

#

Pain

cinder cloud
#

Too spicy

jagged apex
#

well for the time being there is no confirmed interest in that, part of the reason they said a while back they were not gunna be focusing on settings like darksun necessarily is cuz plenty of dedicated fans via 3rd party content have already done that for them so if they really want those settings in 5e, is not like they don't have the means to run them in their games, we just don't have a version of it in detail in the current published continuity from wizards of the coast, assuming we do ever get it in the future, but better to at least establish it still exists than to toss it out and or ignore it entirely

severe basin
#

5e said there were gods once

#

And that's basically all they added to it

jagged apex
#

well more so implied there were gods at one point

severe basin
#

I guess so

jagged apex
#

the point is the gods are not there to offer any aid of any sort in the dark sun setting by the time the sources are set in, so it makes little difference for those living in the setting

#

that fact does not change even if you were to say there were never any gods in that setting

severe basin
#

Completely random and unrelated question how many dragons exist in the forgotten realms

#

Like named ones

jagged apex
#

a lot, a specific number would be foolish to throw out there

severe basin
#

Named and mentioned ones

jagged apex
#

plus keep in mind the published materials are technically past tense at best, effectively there could be new dragons born every day or so for all we know, these worlds far as we know go on technically despite when we get a book detailing a period of time in that setting

severe basin
#

Only at the beginning of the list but by far the vast majority of alive ones seem to be Chromatic
Are metallic dragons just named with letters later in the alphabet more frequently

jagged apex
#

like we know the latest year we know of anything in the setting of note, but does not mean is literally the present day or current year in real time

#

there is not really any difference in naming convention to my knowledge between different kinds of dragons, a dragon name is a dragon name

severe basin
#

Mmm

jagged apex
#

this sort of thing is touched on in fizban's to a degree, is just often given their role as being enemies and antagonists to many heroes or adventurers odds are we just hear of more chromatics than we do metallics

severe basin
#

So there are just much more Chromatic dragons then

jagged apex
#

not nessissarily

#

what is known to us and the people of the realms is not always the same as simply what is

severe basin
#

Oh

jagged apex
#

as i said, and is shown in the list, a good portion of those dragons are dead

severe basin
#

I just realized

#

They sorted the dragons into different tables by color 🤣

#

Of course there's only Chromatic dragons in the Chromatic dragons table

#

The Chromatic table was substantially longer than the other tables though

#

So older editions had a lot of different age groups for dragons far more than 4

#

I'm not gonna lie, that's a fat waste of monster manual book space

jagged apex
#

the ones in 5e are simplified, as some of the differences between parts of their life cycle were not too drastic but that goes into the realm of mechanics

#

can think of it this way, the simplified is what most beings view dragons by, while dragons themselves or experts in the study of dragons might use the more more elaborate/specific version

#

the simplifed ones are more or less the stages where the increase in size and power is significant

severe basin
#

Are time dragons legally considered apart of gem Chromatic or metallic or do we not have any Canon time dragons in the realms because I can't find mention of them under the other true dragons table

calm crest
#

Time dragons aren’t part of the major dragon families. They were originally epic dragons.

severe basin
#

I thought the epic dragons were prismatic dragons and force dragons

calm crest
#

Time, too.

severe basin
#

Oh

#

They got a fat nerf in 5e then

severe basin
calm crest
#

Just the three.

severe basin
#

Gotcha

#

And we don't have any named examples of any of them?

calm crest
#

Two from the Epic Handbook, and then time from Dragon Magazine.

#

They aren’t very common.

severe basin
#

Figures

calm crest
#

Chronepsis is sometimes a time dragon, sometimes a black greatwyrm, sometimes a deity.

severe basin
#

Prismatic dragons were the strongest epic dragons right

feral lintel
#

Wouldnt it be time?

severe basin
#

I heard Prismatic dragons were stronger than force at least where did time dragons fit in

#

Maybe that's why I'm asking

calm crest
#

“Strongest” is relative. The dragon deities are in a whole other category.

severe basin
#

I know all these monsters had stat blocks and were capable of being battled by epic level characters though

feral lintel
#

That would be dipping into mechanics

severe basin
#

Probably

calm crest
#

Sure. If you want to discuss 3e Epic mechanics, I can check the SRD and tell you in #dnd-elder-editions.

severe basin
#

I think I'll look up the epic level handbook later

#

But thanks for the offer

calm crest
#

Dragon Magazine #359 is the original source for the time dragon, for reference.

severe basin
#

Thanks

#

No way
The time dragon WYRMLING was the same cr as the ancient time dragon is now

feral lintel
#

-# again, mechanics

calm crest
#

CR scaled completely differently.

severe basin
#

It's still crazy

#

Wait, prismatic dragons were in 2e?

#

Huh

severe basin
#

Are bladelings fiends

#

They're outsiders, with lawful and lawful evil alignment, according to the forgotten realms wiki

#

Does that make them fiends

#

Does 3e classify things as fiends and celestials and all that

#

HUH

#

The acheron wiki page said they were native to acheron

#

Huh? Where were they created

#

Mmm

#

This is impeding my quest

#

Where is Bane's realm

#

And it says they are a humanoid race here

#

I should move on from this quest i don't think I'll ever find a fiend native to acheron lol

cinder cloud
#

Even with 50 years of lore, there's an infinite number of things that are not answered

severe basin
#

true that

#

are there any native inhabitants of Gehenna? Don't say the Yugoloths

feral lintel
#

Just the spirits of the warriors there

severe basin
#

Gehenna

#

not Acheron

feral lintel
#

ah whoops

#

two battlefield planes confuses me

#

welp, you wont believe this

severe basin
#

don't say the yugoloths

feral lintel
#

Its them

severe basin
#

mmm

#

the barghests were created by a yugoloth living there though

#

I guess that counts as being a native but it's still odd

#

well not odd but

#

questionable

#

I'm just trying to find a fiend type for every lower plane

storm dagger
severe basin
storm dagger
#

They are not humanoids they are outsiders or fiends

#

Bladelings were considered natives of the Outer plane of Acheron, with most living in their city of Zoronor, situated in the Blood Forest on the layer of Ocanthus. However, old legends said that the bladelings had originally come to Ocanthus from another plane, variously said to be Gehenna, Baator, or even an unknown metal plane. Yet other rumors stated they had originally been tieflings who became their own species.

jagged apex
#

acheron is kind of in a weird place, as it is basically the middle ground between the upper and lower planes as far as the lawful planes go

#

as the wiki puts it is "an Outer Plane in the Great Wheel cosmology model representing alignments between lawful evil and lawful neutral with emphasis on law."

severe basin
#

Yeah it's evil bent but mostly lawful

jagged apex
#

so is kind not a lower plane but also sort of is, is in that middle ground

severe basin
#

It is a lower plane

storm dagger
#

It's considered Lower

severe basin
#

And I can't find any fiends native to it

jagged apex
#

ah

storm dagger
#

I just posted the Achaierai earlier

severe basin
#

E

severe basin
storm dagger
#

Four legged Bird fiends

#

I posted a link a bit above

#

Bladelings are also basicly native. It's only legends that say they come from elesewhere.

severe basin
#

I have devils for baator, yugoloths for hades, demodands for carceri, demons for the abyss, and howlers for pandemonium

jagged apex
#

not every one of them is gunna necessarily have a native that is of a specific creature type, if i had to guess bladelings if they were added to the 5e continuity would fall under fiend

severe basin
#

That's funny because they're introduced as a playable race and described as kinda chill unless you attack them

storm dagger
#

Night Hags are more the Fiends of Hades than Yugoloths at this point.

jagged apex
#

fiend is something dependant on the plane of origin, not behavior

severe basin
#

Night hags don't have a plane of origin i thought

#

I thought they were made by any hags spending too much time on a lower plane

jagged apex
#

like creatures don't get put into the category do to their behavior

severe basin
#

Wait wait wait

jagged apex
#

night hags live in the lower planes

severe basin
#

According to vgtm

jagged apex
#

not really dumbed down, simplified

severe basin
#

The outsider creature type would have been nice not gonna lie

jagged apex
#

it would apply to far too many things for it to be that useful

severe basin
#

Not sure how to feel about them making a bunch of neutral creatures celestials in the new mm tbh

jagged apex
#

it is do to the plane they live in most likely

severe basin
feral lintel
#

Neutral means any alignment in the new MM

jagged apex
#

celestials are not all good aligned

severe basin
#

Old mm says otherwise

jagged apex
#

key word there is OLD

feral lintel
#

new MM overrides it

#

and not every god in the upper planes is good aligned

jagged apex
#

not really, as dumbed down implies kind of it was do to a lack of intelligence, which is not at all what was the reason for streamlining things

severe basin
feral lintel
#

Yes. stares at Zeus and Ysgard

jagged apex
#

the upper planes contain planes of law, neutrality, good, and chaotic

#

in varing combinations

severe basin
#

Dumbed down makes it harder for me to classify them with 100% accuracy

feral lintel
#

The norse pantheon (aesir and vanir) resides in the upper planes, but not all of them are Good aligned

severe basin
#

Grrrr

jagged apex
#

is pretty easy, just look at the plane of existance they resign in

#

upper = celestial, lower = fiend, and limbo is neither

feral lintel
#

Wheres mechanicus again?

severe basin
#

Lawful neutral

#

Straight to the left

feral lintel
#

in the middle, right?

severe basin
#

Yep

feral lintel
#

gotcha

jagged apex
#

lawful neutral, ie the upper planes

severe basin
#

No

#

The transitory planes

#

Limbo and mechanus are neither upper nor lower

#

Are there any gods living in limbo or just the slaadi and githzerai

jagged apex
#

depends on the edition

#

as where in the cosmos a god's realm is tends to change with edition, cosmology, or both

severe basin
#

5e makes no mention of such a thing but 5e makes no mentions of a lot of things which is why I'm asking

feral lintel
#

You can always check the wiki for a list of inhabitants

severe basin
#

That is a good idea

feral lintel
#

Apparently theres a Japanese god residing in Limbo

jagged apex
#

that is because, in the most recent version of 5e, a god's domain is either in the astral plane as it's own little domain or in the outlands

feral lintel
#

as well as two Indian gods

#

Susanowo (Japanese), Indra and Agni (Indian the latter two)

#

And a whole bunch more

jagged apex
#

those are historically, they are from prior editions and may not still be there, he have not really heard anything about those deities in particular for a long time far as i know

feral lintel
#

Im gonna go with unless theres an update, theyre still there, but yeah

jagged apex
#

any on this list at one point in time had a divine realm in limbo at least, whether it is there still or not, will depend on how up to date their lore is

#

the gods who are mainly from fantastical versions of real world mythologies and such tend to not get as much focus as those unique to dnd, at least to my knowledge that seems to often be the case

deft trout
#

Limbo is basically a mini version of the elemental planes - the majority of the plane is actually filled with chaos elementals and similar, rather than slaad and gith, iirc

storm dagger
#

Limbo is a lot of anything it has no solid form

#

But it’s chaos can be mastered and controlled by those around it

#

It’s a bit similar to the Elemental Chaos but more wild and with it being able to be shaped by the creatures around it.

severe basin
#

Actually now that I think about it

#

Limbo is much more chaotic since the air turns into water and fire and earth and back constantly

#

Isn't the elemental chaos just a bunch of each element slapped together

#

Oh

#

So it's not 5e canon

#

What is a viltch
They are mentioned on pandemonium forgotten realms wiki page but not elaborated on and don't have their own wiki page

calm crest
#

The Elemental Chaos was a result of the downsized 4e cosmology, combining all of the inner planes with Limbo and the Abyss.

#

It got used again in 5e for the very edges of the elemental planes where the elements begin to blur together, which is distinct from the quasi- and para-elemental planes.

jagged apex
severe basin
#

I am thinking of Limbo yes

calm crest
jagged apex
#

also i find it funny that some official terms, like "chaos stuff" are just that silly XD

severe basin
#

It's fitting for a plane of pure chaos to have a silly name

jagged apex
#

right up there with "shadow stuff" of the shadowfell

calm crest
#

Viltches move extremely fast, too.

#

They prefer to injure and annoy over killing, and especially like to break objects, the more beautiful and orderly the better.

#

They also have only three limbs rather than a more typical four for a primate—two arms and one leg in the back.

severe basin
#

I see

calm crest
#

Not especially dangerous relative to most fiends, but extremely hard to kill.

severe basin
#

As movement shenanigans creatures tend to be

calm crest
#

They’re basically quicklings, but human-sized fiendish apes.

severe basin
#

I see

calm crest
#

Out of the Creature Catalogue II, the only monster I was previously familiar with is the lillend, so needless to say, viltches aren’t exactly a well-known creature, being classified as Rare even within the article.

#

Howlers are definitely the more famous Pandemonic creature.

severe basin
#

Howlers are pretty cool

#

Even if their new art isn't as good as some of their old art

jagged apex
#

eh, subjective

#

art is subjective by nature, and thus more so comes down to your own preference

serene crater
#

quick question, but out of curiosity, has there been a case where a demon lord had imprisoned a god?

cinder cloud
#

Not really a quick question going through the entire history of every demon lord 🙂

#

But that's just one setting

severe basin
#

I feel like it's a very unlikely thing to happen and that if it had happened it would have been apart of that demon lords lore that a lot of us knew about

#

Orcus killed primus once though

#

He didn't imprison primus and primus isn't a god but that did happen

cinder cloud
#

Those are just the minor demon lords, however.

#

Orcus is known to seek out the means to slay the god of death

severe basin
#

Generally demon lords have about the same chance of affecting God's as players do tbh since in most editions powerful players can kill demon lords permanently sometimes even easily but those same pcs can't do anything to a god

cinder cloud
#

But not imprisoned

severe basin
#

This channel told me he wasn't a real god and instead a manifestation of the plane or something

cinder cloud
severe basin
#

Did you just read through all the demon princes to find this

cinder cloud
#

Still am

#

What do you think all this info is stored in my head or somethin'? 🙂

severe basin
#

It's a lotta info to go through

cinder cloud
#

CTRL+F is your friend

jagged apex
cinder cloud
jagged apex
#

that is describing his level of power, not his actual status

cinder cloud
#

Granted, likely more of a quasi-deity than anything else.

jagged apex
#

unless you count the modrons, which i feel is a bit of a stretch given they are sort of an extention of him, and even then it is specifically within his own realm that he has this power, unlike a proper deity

cinder cloud
#

Right, which is why I hedged with quasi

#

Deity-like, if you will

jagged apex
#

a proper deity's power is not bound to a specific realm or plane of existence and he is not listed as any status of divinity unlike proper deities

cinder cloud
#

Absolute power over creatures is pretty deific if you asked me

jagged apex
#

plus it describes him as a greater power, which is not nessissarily the same as a greater deity

cinder cloud
#

¯_(ツ)_/¯

jagged apex
#

plus primus literally can be replaced at any time if need by, he is part of the modron hierarchy

#

the one time he was not able to be properly replaced was when Tenebrous murdered him and impersonated him

#

to my knowledge this is not something that happens with proper deities when they are killed

#

plus it is an established fact, that to my knowledge has never been contradicted, that primus unlike proper deities of that status can't manifest avatars to do his bidding

#

a god of such status as they consider him in his plane, would be able to manifest avatars based on the base line of how gods work and the powers such deities get based on their status as a deity

storm dagger
#

When he was fully revived he his knowledge of the Last Word was damaged but he could still use it, however if he did there was a small chance it would utterly destroy him instead.

jagged apex
#

as i recall, he was slowly being killed by simply knowing the spell, do to not being a true deity at the time

#

is part of why he was so desperate to find the wand of orcus, to give him hopefully enough of a power boost to not be killed by it

cinder cloud
tight fern
#

Greetings! I'm new to DnD and I'm trying to find lore related to the outlands. I'm playing a wood elf druid, circle of the moon 5e. How do I learn more about the planes of existence and how they interact?

karmic jungle
tight fern
#

Both. I want to learn more as a player to give my character better depth.

#

Yeah, he's good with it. We have made it to level 5.

karmic jungle
#

But in charcter you could try researching portals to planes beyond

#

Most fantasy places are high magic and have portals opening to various places. Perhaps such a location exists on your world.

#

Perhaps there are plane travellers who can help you for a quest?

#

Noted

#

Speaking of lore and outlands, I love the idea of a neutral disarming area where no spells work

tight fern
karmic jungle
tight fern
#

How do I check it out?

karmic jungle
#

Think of a city with infinite doors to everywhere

crude blaze
#

Yeah it’s essentially the center of the multiverse

tight fern
#

OMG, reverse TARDIS

crude blaze
#

You can in theory go anywhere else from there, provided the Lady of Pain allows it

karmic jungle
#

LoP is so cool.

#

Doesn't care about any laws but only actions that break the cities functioning

feral lintel
#

Just dont make her mad

karmic jungle
#

Or if you worship her or if you start creating your own portals.

feral lintel
#

All of that fall under making her mad

karmic jungle
#

I also love how Sigil is peaceful but also murder is ok if done in moderation?

#

Truly a neutral wonderland XD

severe basin
#

I like the lore that the common language might have originated from sigil

#

Putting humans at the center of the universe as part of that is just such a human thing to do lol

karmic jungle
#

Btw does anyone have some cool sigil lore that isn't on the obvious web pages?

#

I got a fun one.

#

"We can excuse the fact that you slaughtered two yugoloths before you realized where you were, outsider, but you pronounced the name of our fair city 'Sijil.' not 'Sigil,' and there can be no excuse for that!" A sigil peacekeepers last words before attacking.

severe basin
#

Here's one;

  • all of the sigil factions are wrong and onto absolutely nothing.
#

Also randomly in passing I read that the Lady of Pain has an address

karmic jungle
#

Since sigil has no street lights, urchins move around carrying wands of light, and acting as unofficial guides.

severe basin
karmic jungle
#

Well they ALL can't be thieves surely. Also sigil has enough magic visitors for them to know that the consequences to stealing from clients can be deadly.

#

Id say they all have proficiency in insight XD

karmic jungle
#

Gimme some good Sharn City of Towers lore pls

versed hare
#

what would yall say the best source is for Selune and Shar lore?

jagged apex
feral lintel
#

GuraExtraSweat Oh no

jagged apex
#

when in doubt, go with the setting's wiki, if nothing else is a good collection of sources

jagged apex
cinder cloud
versed hare
cinder cloud
jagged apex
#

basically two sisters who are complete opposites, don't get along, and just blow that up to cosmic proportions of gods, is basically how you could sum up their relationship in a nutshell

pallid flower
#

The 5e book also has a good portion dedicated to Sharn

karmic jungle
#

I will look them both up! I'm building a city in my homebrew campaign with a similar height concept, and just wanted to know about the actual city functioning and building

#

Unless Sharns mountain, my city is surrounded by a swamp and a desert preventing it's growth kinda? And has a huge migrant intake so keeps needing to grow higher and higher.

pallid flower
#

The height is achievable because it’s built on a manifest zone, meaning the buildings have less weight due to the influence of Syrania, the Azure Sky

#

Higher elevation correlates with higher class

karmic jungle
karmic jungle
#

For the city infrastructure I'm taking inspiration from Falconia from Berserk?

pallid flower
karmic jungle
#

Yeah no I'm limiting flying stones for Airships.

#

I'm thinking that either the cities foundational construction was done through epic magic, and current infrastructure can only maintain and add little?

#

Or the city is built on land that allows such construction but only in that fixed area.

pallid flower
#

I like the image of shantytowns being built around the fringes as the city faces overpopulation

karmic jungle
karmic jungle
feral lintel
#

Besides the typical Angels and Empyreans, are there any celestial beings known to serve the giant pantheon?

calm crest
#

Probably fensir as well as giant petitioners. Maybe the einheriar. Given their home plane, possibly (the original, celestial) eladrin, bariaurs, or lillendi.

#

Giant celestial animals are known to serve the gigantic pantheon as well.

feral lintel
#

gotcha, so just more on the Nordic theming, makes sense

calm crest
#

I can check the specific deities for favored creatures, if you’d like.

feral lintel
#

That would be great yeah!

jagged apex
calm crest
#

Stronmaus is mainly associated with aerial and aquatic creatures in general, and with elemental beings; his petitioners appear as living clouds. Grolantor has the dire wolf, and has control of some shator demodands. Memnor is associated with wyverns. Skoraeus Stonebones favors the cave bear. Karontor has the winter wolf. Thrym’s sacred animal is the white dragon, Surtur’s is the hell hound. None of the goddesses seem to have notable servitors.

jagged apex
#

is kind of funny, given a common thing frost giants do is slay white dragons

#

least last i checked

calm crest
#

The favored creature is from 1e, where frost giants were regularly depicted as taming or riding white dragons.

#

May be outdated, but I couldn’t find any more recent favored animal.

jagged apex
#

ah, to my knowledge they do sometimes try to tame wyrmlings, but otherwise is a common practice for them to hunt and slay them to try to prove their might

calm crest
#

In many mythologies, the favored animal is also a preferred sacrifice, so it still kinda makes sense.

jagged apex
#

well otherwise seems in bigby's you could make the argument that he may have some relation with wolves since that is the form the spirits summoned by the ice shapers, who are usually dedicated to thrym, or just general wild life, given the regional effects his scion has that effects wildlife, but that is more extrapolating rather than something clearly established, cuz his description along side the other gods of the ordining does not touch on the subject

#

according to that source at least it should be on pages p.170-171.

rugged salmon
#

Giants have also tamed Behirs. They're used for guarding and for hunting dragons. There's also a Behir called the Stormsteed. Stormsteeds were trained behir that served as mounts for storm giants. Stormsteeds were capable of creating persistent bolts of lightning that they could climb onto, which allowed them to effectively fly, according to 4th edition.

jagged apex
#

historically behirs were created by giants as a living weapon of sorts, along side the likes of rocs

severe basin
#

Do shadow dragons age and increase in size

#

Or do you stay the same size forever once you become a shadow dragons