dnd-lore

[buoyant trail]

Sorry, thats unfair

Righteous gits*

[feral lintel]

aloof bastards, if you will

but both blue and green dragons are the planner types, right?

[white ravine]

Greens especially, blues work more on trickery than planning

[buoyant trail]

Blues are lawful evil and are more likely to spend time planning but not by default.

Green dragons are neutral evil and ARE known for planning

[feral lintel]

wait, i though green dragons are the tricky bastards

[buoyant trail]

Green dragons are saron burr.

💀

[feral lintel]

dont they have a really high CHA

[buoyant trail]

Blue dragons are more like devils

Green dragons are like liches

[feral lintel]

ahhh, ic ic

[white ravine]

Reds are brute warriors
Greens are scheming manipulators
Whites are apex predators
Blacks are deranged sadists
Blues are pompous tyrants

[buoyant trail]

Blackdragons* are demons and reds are…. Reds

Hold on

[white ravine]

I was wrong on blues lol

Though blues do employ heavy illusory powers

[feral lintel]

L O L

[buoyant trail]

Important edit

[feral lintel]

very

[buoyant trail]

I like the lore implications of gold dragons being (good) jerks. This is a powerful creature who would have absolutely no qualms about razing a city solely populated by evil cultists. That includes the men women and children. I’ll remove this immoral stain myself. A silver dragon might call in some people to infiltrate and rescue anyone deemed not evil, before having it taken by force but evil is evil in the eyes of big yellow daddy

[feral lintel]

not just the men, but the women and the children too

[buoyant trail]

You promised my safety if I met with you.
“Yes, I did. But those in the city below….”
You wouldn’t. There are innocents down there, children-
“GIVE UP DARK MAGIC OR I WILL REDUCE IT TO CINDERS.”

[cloud marten]

silver dragons also seem to interact with other races more and take humanoid form in order to do so

[feral lintel]

yeah

silver dragons are such sweeties

they're like the goodest out of all the metallic dragons, by the best definition

[buoyant trail]

Golds are the Goodest, but to a fault

Unless you count platinum but that’s just Bahamas

[feral lintel]

thats just one

[cloud marten]

in DL books silver dragons were also ones falling in love with humans and elves

[feral lintel]

aye

thats where you get draconic bloodline sorcerors

[buoyant trail]

And blue dragons are falling in love with bronze dragons

Like crazy girlfriends or incels

[feral lintel]

wait, what

[buoyant trail]

Yes that’s a thing

[cloud marten]

there was that one blue dragon who fell in love with his human rider and her death broke him

[feral lintel]

huh

[buoyant trail]

Alcinrax: it was a one night stand. Also you’re evil. Like legitamately and definable evil.
Vaethrima: YOU NEED TO BE WITH ME AND YOUR SON, ALCINRAX

[jagged apex]

i am not saying they are true dragons

truly is in the case i used it, intending to describe their feralness

the way their brains are hardwired is closer to that of lizardfolk, not being designed for easy comprehension of abstract concepts, but when it comes to things like memory and tangable things that can be obsured and manipulated such as the enviorment, they are pros

[feral lintel]

oooooooooh~!

[pine reef]

what happens to a dragon of sorcerer bloodline if the dragon is killed?

[jagged apex]

nothing

[feral lintel]

nothing

its in your genes now, killing your mom or dad (or ancestor) doesnt kill you too

[jagged apex]

sorcerers have their magic/innate magical talent in their blood, in their dna

[feral lintel]

i think you're mixing it up with warlocks, who i would argue would lose most of their powers if their patron dies

depending on the relationship between the warlock and the patron

[pine reef]

I thought it followed the same principle and the magic was tied with the existence of the creature. good to know though. and if a warlock whose patron gets killed it takes away all their power yeah?

[jagged apex]

with warlocks death of your patron could, to my knowledge either lead to compless loss of magical powers and spellcasting or just keep you from gaining what is mechanically more levels in it

is honestly, to my knowledge ambiguous

[feral lintel]

well, it really depends on your DM and your character

[jagged apex]

to my knowledge with warlocks more often than not power is easier to give than it is to take away, that is why some like the great old one imply you can potentially be taking it from that being without them knowing or caring

[feral lintel]

true, but it can also be that its because of their existence that you got those powers

[jagged apex]

indeed

[feral lintel]

so one can also argue that killing them can also caus their power to go away, much like clerics

[jagged apex]

though clerics technically are able to channel 1st and second level spells without the aid of a god

at least historically that is the intent

learned that sort of thing when researching and developing my own lore friendly ettin rune magic user

[wary echo]

was it previously canon that Githyanki do not defecate

There’s a dialogue option in Baldur’s Gate 3 that states this and it’s haunting me

[iron saffron]

I've never heard that before.

[jagged apex]

never heard of such a claim

[feral lintel]

inconceivable

[vivid beacon]

Hey all, would anybody be able to explain Selune to me? I’ve heard that some people believe her to be the moon, but I’ve also read that she lives in the moon plane of existence? Does that have anything to do with the actual moon?

[humble jungle]

01010011 01100101 01101100 01110101 01101110 01100101 is the name of a moon, and also- separately- the name of the godess of the light side of the moon. Gods and godesses in faerun are tied to their concepts, but are not their concepts. Mystra, for example, is the goddess of magic, and like almost all other gods, she was a person first. Now, her state of being is pretty tied to the state of magic, but she's only barely magic itself; it's more like magic's her domain.

It's the same for Selune, albeit with the light side of the moon and its symbolism. Technically, gods are fueled by THOUGHTS of their domain because sentient races ooze thought magic through their noggins, ergo Seulune's ties to symbolism as well as the literal moon.

[jagged apex]

no idea what you mean by moon plane of existance

[humble jungle]

ah, forgot about that part.

[jagged apex]

honestly far as i know sounds made up/homebrew

[humble jungle]

So, gods in DnD get their own personal plane of existence if they're powerful enough

not sure why, but they do

dnd lore's a goridian knot

selune is one such deity

@vivid beacon I hope this at least emphasizes how weird and convoluted the lore is!

[jagged apex]

well her divine domain is called "The Gates of The Moon"

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Selûne#Divine_Realm

[iron saffron]

No, deities have their own realms within an Outer Plane.

[humble jungle]

that is more true

more like layers of hell than an entire hell, though it's a semantic difference in most cases

[jagged apex]

so who ever told you she lives in the moon plane of existance, likely forgot the name of it and rather than look it up made up a fake and rather uncreative term

[humble jungle]

but the whole premise is, so... moot point, good point.

[iron saffron]

Realms are on a layer of a plane.

Multivers > Plane of Existance > layer > deity's realm

[humble jungle]

oh, it's not actually a full layer?

huh, TIL

[iron saffron]

No.

[humble jungle]

I guess that fits in better with individual worlds not being full planes

[jagged apex]

a god's divine realm is kind of like a pocket dimension, like a step between demiplane and a plane of existance

[iron saffron]

A plane of existance is essentially its own universe. Hence, multiverse.

[jagged apex]

is easiest way i can think of to describe it

[humble jungle]

in whose pocket are the gods' homes?

||big oil. It's been a poorly written economic commentary all along||

[jagged apex]

like some of the artwork if the 5e planescape gives us visuals of these realms in the outlands for several gods

[humble jungle]

creator god, yeah?

[iron saffron]

Deities are the master of their realms. They control all aspects of it, from physical appears to laws of nature.

[humble jungle]

Mr. blue

[jagged apex]

here jorphan breaks down the revealed cover arts and updated map for the outlands and speculates at several of the structures as potentially being ment to be some of the divine realms of some gods https://youtu.be/_JZH-HwfUOk?si=dFl2nTS9IvSRVBxm&t=516 and in some cases some domains are revealed on the map

so seems in 5e these realms manifests as locations and or territories/areas in the outlands, which is viable since planes of existance in dnd are infinite in scale, save for potentially the prime material plane, so plenty of room to go around

so technically in 5e, if you piss off a god and run to hide in the city of doors, as long as you don't cause trouble or otherwise gain the attention of the lady of pain, while they can't get to you directly, they can literally wait outside the city for you to leave even for a moment if they don't just send their agents or faithful in to try and capture or drag you out

[pallid berry]

do greater dieties ever become patrons for warlocks? like could umberlee be a patron?

[tame jacinth]

Yes pact of the waight watcher warlock

Sorry I know you ment deities but now I’m just amaging a bunch of brand warlocks

As far as I know your patron can be anyone with the power to grant the pack in question

Though I would recomend ceslestial warlock for this though there are some good homebrew celestial pack of the the blades out there

[grim siren]

Typically gods are more removed than that in official settings. There is nothing stopping that if you wanted. But gods will generally gravitate towards Paladin and Clerics.

If you wanted a celestial warlock look at Umberlees servants. Angels and the like for that more direct relationship.

[cloud marten]

how deities work and interact with physical plane does depend from setting as well

[obsidian gate]

soo, a high level wizard with a clone hidden away somewhere on the material plane goes to ravenloft and then dies there, does their soul successfully go to the clone?

[modest badger]

I guess it doesn't say it needs to be on the same plane, but then I guess the question is on how Ravenloft interacts with the afterlife. Which admittedly I don't know if Ravenloft prevents souls from entering the ethereal and travelling to their respective afterlifes.

Oop spoilers for CoS but, Alterations to Magic" p. 24:

||In Barovia, the souls of the dead are as trapped as the souls of the living. They become caught in the mists and can’t travel to the afterlife.||

Which I think would interfer with Clone's "free and willing" requirement:

At any time after the clone matures, if the original creature dies, its soul transfers to the clone**, provided that the soul is free and willing to return**.

[obsidian gate]

ah so the soul isnt free to travel, got it

[cloud marten]

ah so on Barovia death doesn't free you from it

that makes that place even worse to be born to

[obsidian gate]

hmm, but what if the clone is in another domain of dread?

[modest badger]

Alternative Magic might affect that too- it allows for people to brought back from death (which clone seems to fit the criteria for) but has consequences for such.

||When a humanoid who has been dead for at least 24 hours returns to life, either by way of a spell or some supernatural means, it gains a random form of indefinite madness brought on by the realization that its spirit is trapped in Barovia, likely forever.||

Although clone is instant, so actually probably wouldn't trigger this

[obsidian gate]

yeah, this stuff is good to know. guess my nagpa BBEG cant escape when he is killed after all lol

well, he can escape the players but not the mists

[pine reef]

Dragons are described as inherently magical beings, but are they part of nature or are they outside of it? I caught some references to the First World but I'm unclear on the nature of Dragons. They're magical against nature, or nature against magic, or both?

[unkempt merlin]

Just cause something is magical doesn't mean it's unnatural

[feral lintel]

They are part of nature at this point

Actually, they are so powerful that nature heads them

Like their presence changes the environment around them

[modest badger]

Sage Advice actually addresses this to an extent, when discussing antimagic field and dragon's breath weapons:

You might be thinking, “Dragons seem pretty magical to me.” And yes, they are extraordinary! Their description even says they’re magical. But our game makes a distinction between two types of magic:

• the background magic that is part of the D&D multiverse’s physics and the physiology of many D&D creatures
• the concentrated magical energy that is contained in a magic item or channeled to create a spell or other focused magical effect

**In D&D, the first type of magic is part of nature. It is no more dispellable than the wind. A monster like a dragon exists because of that magic-enhanced nature. **The second type of magic is what the rules are concerned about.

[pine reef]

thank you, answered my question greatly.

[robust swallow]

Fizban’s elaborates a lot on the connection of dragons to magic.

[cloud marten]

considering that he is father of metallic dragons on Krynn he should know what he is talking about when it comes to topic

[jagged apex]

any significantly powerful being can technically be a warlock patron, though rarely do deities do this canonically the only known one we have any confirmation as having both clerics and warlocks is the raven queen

[jagged apex]

as they put it themselves when promoting it, it's goal is basically to reintroduce and emphasise the fantastical nature of dragons, since they wound up not seeming much like it in their initial 5e debuts

[jagged apex]

and king of all good dragon kind in the dnd multiverse, at least in published materials

[jagged apex]

fun fact, at least from a lore video i learned by Mr.Rexx so take with a grain of salt potentially, but according to his videos on what they don't tell you about dragons in 5e, an anti magic field or being in a dead magic zone will not prevent the magical aspects of it's biology that allow it to do things that they otherwise would not be able to do from a purely scientific stance the way their bodies are built

(though i believe those vids were prior to the release of fizban's)

[jagged apex]

said magic basically needs to be used to achieve something unnatural, such as is the case with some creatures that fall into the monstrosity category

and given tasha's confirmed things like magical phenomina in the nature of the worlds of dnd of varing kinds, that shows that indeed magic does not make something unnatural, much like any given alignment there is some neuance to it

[jagged apex]

fizban's ties dragons heavily to the material plane, to quote fizban's "Dragons populated the First World from the time of its creation, and a variety of peoples came to live in the First World after their gods made war on the dragons. As such, the similar natures of the creatures now inhabiting the many different worlds of the Material Plane can be seen as a product of the First World’s sundering. And because dragons are so tightly linked to the essence of the Material Plane, they are thought to be the only creatures that appear on every world formed from the shattering of the First World, even when they take on different forms."

[modest badger]

This is likely based on older edition mechanics.
In 3.5 for example, Antimagic field also suppressed supernatual (Su) abilities, which included Dragon breath weapons.

An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.

Breath Weapon** (Su)**

Using a breath weapon is a standard action. Once a dragon breathes, it can’t breathe again until 1d4 rounds later. If a dragon has more than one type of breath weapon, it still can breathe only once every 1d4 rounds. (...)

1e AD&D also had for Antimagic shell:

Explanation/Description: By means of an anti-magic shell, the magic-user causes an invisible barrier to surround his or her person, and this moves with the spell caster. This barrier is totally impervious to all magic and magic spell effects (this includes such attack forms as breath weapons, gaze weapons, and voice weapons).

And similar in 2e AD&D:

The area is also impervious to breath weapons, gaze or voice attacks, and similar special attack forms.

But in 5e that is not the case. there is no distinction between Extraordinary (Ex) abilities like swallow, which are 'natural' biology abilities that surpass the norm, or Supernatural (Su) abilities which are more magical in nature. Antimagic field does not affect dragon breath weapons, or the like in 5e unless they specifically say 'magically'.

[icy tinsel]

Hey there, I am new to this discord and I am hoping I am asking my question in the right channel.

As I am prepping the regional area for the next couple of sessions for my campaign set in Faerûn, I have been trying to stick quite close the lore whenever possible / available.

I hope it's ok if I ask some questions here as they come up over the next couple of days that I was not able to properly answer looking up lore online. I am not sure if it is allowed to post images of published maps of Faerun here to specificy what area I am talking about, so I will just try to explain.

My group is currently heading northeast from the Trielta hills and will probably stop around Drawn Swords. From there, they will likely explore the Backlands and might be drawn towards the north, all the way up unto the Winding Water.

Here my super specific question: What is the climate / biome like around the Winding Water, especially at its northern shore? Particularly around Yarthrain. To the south, I assume that it is the beginnings of Pelleor's Prairie that characterize its shore. But what about the North? I can't seem to find out what the northern shore of the Winding Water would be like, as I know it is part of Najara but quite far from the Marsh of Chelimber.

[unkempt merlin]

There is such a distinction (generally), its just that its not a mechanical one, as described in the SAC you linked

[pine reef]

so, the dragons created the world as we know it, but then the Gods came and took over?

prime material plane

[jagged apex]

well the way i see it more like the gods came in impatient and took over before the 3 dragonic god siblings, bahamut, tiamat, and sardior were even finished

fighting insued, and eventually the first world, along with sardior shattered and scattered

[pine reef]

so, the dragons are basically indians and the rest just took-over their land aka world?

[jagged apex]

if the resulting conflict had be the thing that caused the splitting of the super continent pangea, yeah more or less

and was less took over and more so moved in before the construction was finished

and that world shattered each piece going on to be come via what ever means, as bigby's suggests a potential role Annam had in having these shards become the worlds that compose the dnd multiverse as we know it today in the 5e continuity

and just while i am thinking of it, since the shattering of the world killed sardior his conciousness was also shattered, so while he is effectively dead, fragments of him live on in each gem dragon on each world in the multiverse, deep in their minds, and his thanes believe that assimulating their echos into themselves they can eventually reunite these aspects and effectively revive/rebirth sardior

[white ravine]

A thing to remember is that the First World Elegy is a dragon story written by dragons describing how dragons made the world. Most importantly, dragons are very biased.

[pine reef]

aha, so it's not fact, gotcha. yes, when you put it like that, ofc they'd be the victims and be in the right.

[white ravine]

Exactly

[jagged apex]

and a poem

but as bigby's confirms there are at least some nuggets of truth to it

as it refferences the first world and the events or at least the outcome of it

like from seems that some said nuggets are that the first world did indeed exist in some capacity and was shattered

[white ravine]

Given how giants and dragons hate each other, I think it's equally biased in the fact that the giant's side of the story describes Annam picking up the pieces that the dragons left behind and making the world proper

[pine reef]

since we're on the subject, there's this little quote: Dragonsight allowed a dragon to become aware of all its incarnations across the many worlds of the Prime Material plane, giving them access to a great amount of knowledge of worlds beyond their own.

what does incarnations mean. are dragons immortal and cannot be killed and they just reincarnate?

[white ravine]

Giving the finger to the dragons and simultaneously rewriting the dragon's story to make giants the superior ones

[sharp owl]

The same dragon might exist on multiple material planes and dragonsight allows them to become aware of said incarnations

For example, there might be a Ferovax the Terrorflame on Eberron, Exandria, Krynn and Toril

[pine reef]

Dragon clones? or how does that work?

[jagged apex]

basically is their counterpart on another world, a variant, alternate version

not clones

[pine reef]

multiple universes, alternate reality sort of thing?

[sharp owl]

Not really clones, more their essence split acrcoss multiple planes

[obsidian gate]

as i understand, the echos are often slightly different. other names, sometimes more differences

[jagged apex]

as to how, it is a gain tied to the shattering of the first world

[sharp owl]

Think variants like in the MCU

[jagged apex]

yep

[pine reef]

ehm, I'm unfamiliar with MCU.

[pine reef]

can you explain that please?

[jagged apex]

basically each world has a version of a character, be it just a different setting or a different timeline

[sharp owl]

Okay, think any show where you have multiple parallel realities; you encounter the same person in each one but they're slightly different

[jagged apex]

the explination is given in the book

[sharp owl]

Aka Sliders or The One

[pine reef]

so, we're not talking about different worlds/planets in the sense of you going into a spelljammer and getting to a different planet where there's an alternate version of said dragon, but in an alternate reality of the world, for instance like Toril?

[sharp owl]

So Ferovax is an ancient red dragon, but on Eberron he's a schemer manipulating a dragonmarked house while on Krynn he's a loyal servant of Tarhisis

[sharp owl]

Those are the same thing

[jagged apex]

basically the worlds as mentioned in fizban's reffers to what we know as settings

[sharp owl]

You could meet Ferovax on Toril, get in your spelljammer, fly through the astral sea to Greyhawk and meet an incarnation of Ferovax there

[jagged apex]

which in relation to spelljammer is different spaces, kind of like solar systems in our own world

[sharp owl]

But the Ferovax on Toril might be a cruel hoarder of gold that dwells in a volcano, while on Greyhawk he's a tyrant of a petty kingdom that rules from an old wizards tower

[jagged apex]

basically there is an echo of a dragon in each setting unless that echo has been absorbed by one of the others and thus increaded it's power

[pine reef]

could theoretically a Dragon with mad ambition try to reach each of this world and collect all this scattered essence into a single vessel, aka itself?

[pine reef]

guess that answers my question.

[sharp owl]

Yes, that has happened

[pine reef]

do tell.

[sharp owl]

Ashardalon traveled between worlds and killed his incarnations, absorbing their power to become a greatwyrm

[jagged apex]

yeah in 5e fizban's impies or at least theories that many past identified dragon gods were once mortal dragons that via this method achieved god like power, an example being Null or at least one of his aspects

[sharp owl]

Well, more specifically he drained their essence into a balor, than fused that balor into his chest where his heart was

[obsidian gate]

it should be noted that the whole first world story is in universe Dragon mythology, and maybe not actually how the word came to be

[sharp owl]

I'm thinking of Chronepsis, the black greatwyrm, who devoured his echoes

[jagged apex]

and at least historically after replacing his heart with a balor demon, set up shop in the well of souls, further gaining powers from the source or at least a location very close to where souls all come from supposedly, far as i know the location has not been touched on in the 5e continuity

[pine reef]

this reminds me of that movie, the one, where this man went in different realities to kill his other versions and gather all the energy into him.

good stuff, very interesting, thank u guys for ur help.

[jagged apex]

which was the aspect of null i mentioned, as that was what he was in the past, null could in 5e be considered a similar version that perhaps has not to come to blows with Chronepsis

[sharp owl]

Yeah, The One (staring Jet Li), I mentioned it earlier

[jagged apex]

as if one version of an individual got the idea to do so, no reason to believe in an infinite multiverse another version or 2 would not get the same or similar idea

and if enough people view and treat them like a god cuz of their god like power, they at least based on the lore historically and the nature of divinity could become a proper deity with enough worship

so in 5e, at least unless we get information otherwise, that is likely the case with Null in the 5e continuity, and basically is working towards proper godhood like countless beings before him

[pine reef]

that'd be a demi-god though, as they won't have any portfolio no?

[jagged apex]

and his aspects like Chronepsis, are just other powerful echos that have had the same idea but have yet to be assimilated

[jagged apex]

even demi gods have portfolios

you may be thinking what is traditionally called a power

basically a god like being that is not actually a deity proper of any status, which included demi-god

[white ravine]

Archfey, archdevils, demon lords...

[pine reef]

does a dragon that reach this level and have worshippers can become a deity tho? I thought Ao must be the one that approves it, and then grants it a portfolio based on its personality/characteristics.

or it can happen outside of Ao's approval?

[white ravine]

They can become a deity, but only with Ao's approval

No god is made without Big A's approval

[jagged apex]

still requires a pretty massive amount, but in the forgotten realms at least, they would need approval from lord Ao

[white ravine]

If worshippers are present and a portfolio is open, then there's always a chance

[jagged apex]

if not mistaken was post time of troubles that it became to where Ao needed to approve any new deities, as prior gods could elect and sponsor candidates even out of mortals

at least from what i am aware of

[pine reef]

after a bit of digging, such a dragon in our scenario would become a quasi-deity, correct?

[jagged apex]

no

as that is also a rank of proper deity

a power is someone with god like powers, but is not a proper deity and thus is outside of such rankings and status

[cloud marten]

during 5th Age some dragons on Krynn reached god-like status but they were never gods

there is difference between being god and being powerful as one

[jagged apex]

often having a portfolio, even karsus had one in his brief time, hubris, kind of kicking him while he was down for messing up so bad

[icy tinsel]

since my question earlier wasn't answered, I am assuming this might not be the right place to ask or it is too specific.
Do you guys know any resource that details the different climate zones across Faerûn or the Sword Coast in particular?

[jagged apex]

my best guess would be such pages on the forgotten realms wiki

otherwise, idk

[icy tinsel]

I've been browsing them for hours and learned loads of fascinating details about the area, but nothing out there seems to say what type of terrain it is 😅

[iron saffron]

Have you looked at the maps?

The FR wiki entries on specific regions should also say the type of climate.

[jagged apex]

odd, such things should have been in the descriptions

[cloud marten]

may I ask is there wikis for other settings as well that I could study for lore?

[icy tinsel]

Can I link a wiki article here?

[sterile breach]

Yep. Eberron, Spelljammer, Greyhawk, Mystara, Dragonlance, and Ravenloft all have wikis.

[cloud marten]

ah nice

[icy tinsel]

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Yarthrain

my inquiry is the area on the northern shore of the winding water near Yarthrain

[iron saffron]

Forgotten Realms may be a very detail campaign setting but it (Faerun) is still vast enough that there still huge gaps in lore that needs to be filled in by the DMs themselves.

[icy tinsel]

ah so it is just terra nova, so to speak

I don't mind at all making up my own lore, I just want to adhere to existing stuff whenever possible

[iron saffron]

That region you're asking about is rather "remote" so there's not much info on it.

Unless you ask Ed Greenwood specifically on it, expect to fill out the info yourself (as the DM).

[icy tinsel]

I believe i will make it bog/marshland then. Thanks for the advice!

[jagged apex]

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Backlands

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Najara

[icy tinsel]

Yeah I have been delving through those the past few days

[jagged apex]

sadly the page for Najara is incomplete, but you likely can deduce it based on the confirmed creatures that live there and their favorite terrain

honestly would probably be easiest to ask Ed greenwood on twitter/X he'd know better than anyone

and he is fairly active last i checked

[icy tinsel]

wait you can literally just ask the guy?

[jagged apex]

yeah

[iron saffron]

Yeah, he has a Twitter and Discord server.

[jagged apex]

he has his own twitter and youtube channel and both have put out plenty of realms lore

and far as i know he has not stopped doing so

[iron saffron]

He recently co-published updated Red Wizard of Thay book on DMs Guild.

[icy tinsel]

fascinating. I admit I would not have deemed myself important enough to get an answer from the man himself just like that

[iron saffron]

You won't know until you ask.

[jagged apex]

me either, but i did so when i published my adaptation of wu-jen for 5e and actually heard back from him in relatively short amount of time

honestly ed is a pretty good and chill dude from what i have seen

[jagged apex]

honestly sounds like you may just have the wrong attitude, cuz i even did this when i had questions on something in the eberron setting and asked the creator of the setting, keith baker, who also has a twitter/x

so yeah at least with those two, seems like they are willing to answer questions if you simply ask them, but like oldmanyelling said, you will not know unless you try

[icy tinsel]

I will give it a shot! Thanks for encouraging me! 🙂

[jagged apex]

honestly i doubt importance is even a factor, just a matter of asking and how confortable they are about the subject and if they wish to answer it, which seems higher than you might think since the versions of the setting we get published have changes by wizards of the coast so their own independent stuff on like dms guild and just sharing with fans is one way they can expand other player's view of the worlds by informing them of the original version, as i like to consider it since they made these settings and then wizards started using them

[jagged apex]

np, us dnd fans should always stick together and help one another where possible

[icy tinsel]

Seems like him answering questions is actually a patreon thing. Maybe I will see what other questions come up for me prepping the setting and try to get them into his Q&A

[iron saffron]

You can ask in his Discord server. It has channels dedicated to different parts of Toril. Ed may not answer it but other fans could.

[icy tinsel]

yeah, seems like he hasnt replied there since 2021. But I will give it a shot!

[jagged apex]

if you otherwise can't get an answer in the time frame you needed, could always attempt to deduce it via the creatures that are known to live in the area and what info is publicly available and just use your best judgement

the overlapping of confirmed inhabitants, to me suggests a warm jungle @icy tinsel

as those are known elements of the yuan-ti and lizardfolk, both confirmed to have dwelled there, and their favorite climates and terrain

hopefully that helps if you do not get an answer from Ed or his discord

[tall blade]

how were gelatinous cubes created and why they so cute?

[white ravine]

Old legend says they broke off of Juiblex

And they're kinda spooky all things considered

[jagged apex]

yeah, the plush you can buy i can see being cute, but the creature proper, not so much

[white ravine]

giant acid brick

[jagged apex]

if factoring in how they "hunt", heat seeking giant acid brick/block

[white ravine]

given how you can barely see them, transparent heat seeking giant acid brick

[tame locust]

Older sources said orcs could interbreed with several races, producing a variety of orc-half beings.

Are there stats for any large or huge part orc beings?

[fallow leaf]

in 5e, theres the half ogre, which is stated to be able to be half orc

but i mean the half ogre statblock is just
extremely extremely boring

there's also tanarukks, which i thought were large, but nope
they're medium. Also might not count based on how you look at it

[jagged apex]

yep https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Ogrillon

though that is the only larger one that has made it to 5e in my knowledge

[hazy fox]

I guess humans and orcs are in contest on "enough to make Bards blush".

[jagged apex]

not really, cuz such a bard is a just that, a trope, they are no more so than anyone else, can't say the h word in this server apparently

but i get what you mean, both races are close and effectively in a tie for the most adaptable genes among the races

on the orcs part, likely do to having to thrive in such harsh environments and their genetics just being very potent, thus why some parts of toril can't even tell a half orc apart from a full blooded orc just by looks

[fast bobcat]

Yeah, and in the Shadow Marshes of Eberron, humans and Orcs have been living in concert for so long that they're essentially the same culture, and the Jhor'guntaal range between "mostly human with some orcish blood" to the opposite.

[odd fossil]

Is spelljamming the only way to travel between published D&D worlds with a ton of people? I'm a bit confused on how all the planes and realms and universes work.

I'm making my first homebrew campaign and am trying to have the hook be that Yuan-Ti are traveling through the multiverse slaying dragons, lizardfolk, reptiles, etc for some sort of ritual (and by them doing this, it's causing some dimensional tear shenanigans like locations getting jumbled up, stuff being where it shouldn't be, timeline changes, etc) and it's the PCs objective to stop them. Eventually, they will get access to whatever the method the Yuan Ti used to travel between worlds and whatnot to stop them and set everything back to normal

[iron saffron]

Yes, spelljamming is the most viable way to travel between worlds of the Material Plane.

Planes of the multiverse:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/appendix-d-the-planes-of-existence

[fast bobcat]

You can also get there via other means of planar travel, but Spelljamming is the big fun one.

[odd fossil]

Isn't that primarily relegated to 8 person spells like plane shift or gate or dream of the blue veil

[fast bobcat]

I don't think it's specified in 5e, but in some previous edition material you would plane shift to an outer or astral plane, then travel a bit and plane shift to an alternate material plane.

[white ravine]

More like portals, which tend to either take IMMENSE magical power or be unstable/temporary

Sometimes, Gate wont cut it.

Plane shift and similar spells (like gate) are for traveling planes, where spelljamming gets you across crystal spheres, which is how places like Oerth and Krynn are divided

[white ravine]

Is there a dnd setting which completely lacks Vecna?

[unkempt merlin]

Eberron for one

As for others: do you mean "vecna isn't a part of the base setting" or "vecna has never traveled there" or something equivalent?

[fast bobcat]

We don't quite have an exhaustive list of where he's been, but his influence is primarily in Oerth and Toril, and other places in the Great Wheel cosmology

[sharp owl]

I believe Eberron and Krynn are free of his influence, and the Vecna of Exandria isn't the Vecna and is instead more of an incarnation of Vecna

[fast bobcat]

So he's not likely to be present unless you choose to introduce him as being in there in settings in the Blind Eternities like the MtG Planeshift ones.
Or in settings that are closed off from the others like Eberron, as Swamp mentioned

[sharp owl]

Oh, and Athas, he's not mentioned as having any significant influence or presence there, if any

[fast bobcat]

If a Vecna is mentioned in Eberron material, it's unlikely to be the same Vecna from Oerth either. In the same vein as how Kyuss, Avatar of Katashka the Gatekeeper isn't the same as the Kyuss from FR.
Or Tiamat the Daughter of Khyber isn't the same as Tiamat, Queen of Dragons.

[sharp owl]

With regards to Tiamat, I think Fizban's establishes that it is the same Tiamat, or at least a facet of her

Fizban's even goes so far to establish that not just dragons, but locations (and reasonably by extention, individuals) can have 'incarnations' across multiple material planes

There might be White Plume Mountain or Tomb of Horrors on multiple worlds because those locations have a lot of metaphysical 'weight' to them, like powerful dragons do

So it's not unreasonable that individuals such as Acererak and Vecna might carry the same weight, meaning even on worlds where Vecna never visits, his presence might be felt through incarnations (such as on Exandria)

[unkempt merlin]

I would have to double check this aspect however the draconic gods in general are (in general) represented by constellations in Eberron as well

[fast bobcat]

I recall Fitzban describing Eberron as like an alternative smaller version of the First World. So yeah, Khyber (and the Daughter of Khyber) and Tiamat are connected. Though I don't think it's made clear whether Khyber is a facet of the First World Tiamat, or a reflection of her through this smaller alternate first world's lens.

[fast bobcat]

I remember reading that some of them might be Dragons... or Giants.
Echoes of the heroes who fought in the first war and ended the age of demons.

[unkempt merlin]

Right, much like how the Daughter of Khyber is Eberrons version of Tiamat, other draconic gods do get represented in setting most usually as constellations. With some lore implications being "it is the influences of these far away universes representing themselves in the stars"

[fast bobcat]

Is it Ourelonastrix the Blue Dragon? Ouralon Lawbringer the Storm Titan? Or Aureon the god?
The true answer is lost to time.

In my opinion, part of what makes Eberron fun to run is that there's multiple answers to all these deep setting questions and the truth is left vague.

[fast bobcat]

I'm pretty sure we have a good number of the draconic names for the Sovreigns as well. Might be fun to cross reference and see which ones have similar identities in the larger multiverse.

[unkempt merlin]

Yea I'm however moreso referring to this https://eberron.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Constellations

[fast bobcat]

Oh those

I forgot about those

[jagged apex]

no, but it is a way and technically more widely available than planar travel, given the spell to create a spelljamming helm, at least in 5e is 5th level, plane shift being a 7th level and gate being a 9th level spell

and from what we know so far, even in 5e sigil is situational at best in terms of accessability, regardless if you are coming or going

so most other methods, least to my knowledge are either stronger and thus higher level magic or require more effort do to the steps having to be taken and how specific some of them can be in the case of sigil if the situational nature of the portals is gunna be similar to how it was in 2e

[white ravine]

Hm. Yknow thinking of Athas (and my unfamiliarity with it), what happened to the gods there?

Dead, abandoned, trapped...?

[sharp owl]

Unspecified

It's not stated if whatever turned the sun dark killed the gods, or just cut them off from the mortals

[tame locust]

Good question. Wish I had an answer.

In Ravenloft, people still believe in, and worship gods, but they rarely, if ever help. Ravenloft lore, such as dread companions, seem to imply that the mists/dark powers/darklords can hear divine requests, and intercede in place of gods.

Maybe Athas is actually a dread realm of some kind...

But even that does not explain what actually HAPPENED to the gods

[white ravine]

Hm. I guess my next question would be what worlds exist with the vecna pieces but no active vecna presence

[sharp owl]

I don't think the Hand and Eye exist in the canon of any setting except Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and Exandria

And the FR instance of the Hand exists by way of Exandria

[hazy fox]

So…does Spelljammer have its own Middle East cultural counterpart? Mostly the original version.
Like Kara-Tur got three, but there isn’t fantasy Middle East nautical equivalent (as far as I know, haven’t read the original source).
Even Al Qadim have nautical adventure and Corsair kit, so writers would be aware of Middle East naval traditions and 1001 Nights’s sea themed stories.
But no fantasy space counterpart (assuming of they have maritime to Spelljammer conversion in the book).

[sharp owl]

Spelljammer isn't nautical

It's space fantasy, it just happens that some of the common spelljammer vessels are ships

Also it's a setting unto itself, one that connects other settings

[fast bobcat]

You can visit and dock your Spelljammer at any of the worlds which have a middle-east inspired area.

If that counts.

[sharp owl]

If your spelljammer can land in water or on land, you can dock anywhere regardless of the inspiration of the setting

[fast bobcat]

And if it can't, you can hover, drop anchor, and descend to the surface with ropes and ladders.

Or crash

Every spelljammer made can land anywhere at least once.

[hazy fox]

Yeah, the point is if there are any Middle-east inspired ship classes.

Like even there are Spelljammers are inspired or converted from sailing ships.

[jagged apex]

to my knowledge they effectively bailed on that world and thus no regulation on magic and the way magic was being used messed that world up pretty bad

[fast bobcat]

You can install a Helm into a decent number of vessels, , I recall that Halruuan skyships are particularly easy to convert to spelljammers due to already being sky-worthy.

So it's definitely something you could see, and the Halruuans are aware of wildspace IIRC.

[jagged apex]

at least those are worlds we know they have shown up in some capacity, as to my knowledge these things make their way back to vecna eventually with the host, ie who used it last before they died and it was removed or otherwise left them, and gives their secrets to vecna, then he sends them back out to repeat the process

though exandria, given it repeats vecna's origin in that world, does make it rather wonky cuz you would kind of have to try to consolidate the existance of the divine vecna and the mortal vecna on exandria at least till he reached his divinity

[unkempt merlin]

No more than mortal vecna in greyhawk and mortal vecna in exandria. Time in the multiverse is weird.

[jagged apex]

except the mortal one on greyhawk is the one that became divine

to my knowledge mortal vecna on exandria did not get introduced until 5e and in the wider timeline of the muliverse is not clear where that would take place in the timeline, especially since out the gate in 5e continuity vecna is presented as still being a proper deity

so honestly is that fact that makes the case of it when involving the version from exandria a bit wonky and weird

[unkempt merlin]

They both became divine

[jagged apex]

but at different times

[unkempt merlin]

On a meta level sure

[jagged apex]

even in universe, they don't change that, the one we knew from the begining of 5e was still the one from greyhawk, and they never directly addressed how the exandria version factors in if at all, nor do they reference it at all in his 5e dossier

[unkempt merlin]

Because again, on a meta level it came after

So it's not the one people are familiar with

[jagged apex]

at best alluding to it with the opening line "On countless worlds, his name evokes tales of terror and cruelty." and then in the next paragrath emediately going specifically to greyhawk and oreth

[unkempt merlin]

And, at least in accordance with the concept of echoes and reverberations, they are that to each other

[jagged apex]

can't really say that when they literally put it out for a time where it was free for anyone with a dnd beyond account, and even then lore youtubers probably helped spred the og story

so again i reitterate, factoring exandria makes the matter wonky and a bit wierd

[fast bobcat]

I mean that's the thing. Meta-wise the Greyhawk Vecna came first. But timeline wise they're both incarnations/echoes of the concept of Vecna.

[unkempt merlin]

Exactly

[jagged apex]

far as i know only dragons have echos, at least is the only time the idea is mentioned outside of exandria

at least in the wider dnd multiverse

[unkempt merlin]

No

[jagged apex]

like echo knight, last i checked at least, left it rather ambiguous

[unkempt merlin]

As mentioned earlier by davyd

[unkempt merlin]

Echo Knights weren't actually within the concept of echoes in the wider dnd multiverse, although they do slot into the concept for use outside of exandria

[jagged apex]

so again, my point remains unchanged, so unless you got hard evidence that consolidates their existences as being canonically happening in unison to the version on greyhawk, seems most accurate to say it makes things a bit wonky cuz of the fact the 2 are not cleanly consolidated or officially addressed, to my knowledge, how they relate to each other if at all

like i even asked matt mercer via twitter, still no answer and that was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY back when

[fast bobcat]

From what I understand, the concept is that across the planes in the D&D cosmology, there are recurring themes, individuals, and places. All shards and echoes of the first world.

[jagged apex]

in regards to living beings though we only have this confirmed for dragons

[unkempt merlin]

It's no more of an issue than multiple versions/echoes of tiamat, bahamut, or countless other things

[fast bobcat]

Not all these worlds may interact with each other and share the same multiversal space (like Eberron being described in Fitzban as an alternative, possibly isolated cosmology of itself that is a reflection of the first world), but they echo each other.

[jagged apex]

as no similar nature or cases were ever mentioned, to my recollection, in bigby's which does reference the first world

[jagged apex]

accept it is, those 2 far as we know have in the 5e continuity at least and the time of the first world, always been gods, and again even then, are still dragons, which itself reitterates my point that at this point and time we have only had this confirmed to be a thing in relation to dragons

[unkempt merlin]

The concept as to what we are saying very much is mentioned in Bigbys

[fast bobcat]

Fitzban mentions that the sundering of the first world can be seen as responsible for the similar natures of the creatures inhabiting the various settings, and that it can be seen as an explanation for the common elements that appear throughout these worlds.

Dragons are then elaborated as the main example, but it implies that the common/recurring races and themes are due to this.

[jagged apex]

elements of those world, that does not automatically mean it applies to individuals of a non draconic nature

[fast bobcat]

"Whether it is regarded as interpretive myth or historical record, “Elegy for the First World” offers an explanation for the common elements that appear in the legends and mythology of so many worlds across the Material Plane. Dragons populated the First World from the time of its creation, and a variety of peoples came to live in the First World after their gods made war on the dragons. As such, the similar natures of the creatures now inhabiting the many different worlds of the Material Plane can be seen as a product of the First World’s sundering. And because dragons are so tightly linked to the essence of the Material Plane, they are thought to be the only creatures that appear on every world formed from the shattering of the First World, even when they take on different forms."

[jagged apex]

if it is then can you quote it and cite the section it is found in?

[unkempt merlin]

Most of the mentions of the first world and Annam, who is yknow. Distinctly not a dragon. Are in support of the concept

[fast bobcat]

Dragons are the unifying factor, the only ones that appear in every world.

But there are other elements that occur throughout similar worlds.

[jagged apex]

again, Annam, like the 2 draconic gods before hand, as far as we know was ALWAYS a god

[unkempt merlin]

That doesn't change anything about what we are saying about the concept being in play with vecna

[jagged apex]

so swampellow, unless you can provide me this evidence you are claiming to exist in bigby's i have no reason to believe that this is the case to where my earlier statement warrents change

[unkempt merlin]

Your statement doesn't do anything to disprove what we have said either so I guess the same can be said to you?

[jagged apex]

-_-

[unkempt merlin]

I already directed you to where in Bigby that the evidence supports what we have been saying

[jagged apex]

my whole point is we don't have a freaking official answer

[cloud marten]

ngl it's little disapointing to me that they didn't go some other route with other Vecna and just did same thing

[jagged apex]

not really, and you did not quote the part i should be looking for

[unkempt merlin]

You said the concept only applies in relation to dragons, which is distinctly not true

[jagged apex]

i said it is only CONFIRMED to apply to dragons in published materials

[unkempt merlin]

There are multiple mentions of the first world in the book. I'm not going to quote all of them

[unkempt merlin]

Again still not true

[jagged apex]

yet you are not even bothering to quote a single one

[jagged apex]

this is likely do to in a meta view, being an omage to the original vecna's storyline

[cloud marten]

how much does The First World have lore?

[unkempt merlin]

Because I figured since you were the one who brought up the mentions of the first world in Bigby you were already aware of them and thus didnt need a quoting? But i guess not?

[fast bobcat]

Wasn't it that you need to consolidate the existence of Oerth Vecna and Exandria Vecna at the same time?
And we're saying that this is explained away by the fact that we have an answer in the form of echoes and incarnations.

[unkempt merlin]

I'm not sure why it's getting so aggressive so I'm gonna dip from this convo

[jagged apex]

well obviously if we are not on the same page then what ever you are referring to if it does back your statement i either overlooked or forgot and thus would need to check, i am willing to admit when i am wrong, but that is once i actually see the evidence that i was wrong

[fast bobcat]

"Whether it is regarded as interpretive myth or historical record, “Elegy for the First World” offers an explanation for the common elements that appear in the legends and mythology of so many worlds across the Material Plane. Dragons populated the First World from the time of its creation, and a variety of peoples came to live in the First World after their gods made war on the dragons. As such, the similar natures of the creatures now inhabiting the many different worlds of the Material Plane can be seen as a product of the First World’s sundering. "

[jagged apex]

is that from bigby's?

cuz i am almost certain it is from fizban's

[fast bobcat]

It's from Fitzban, but it supports what Swamp is trying to say.
The natures of the creatures across the worlds can be attributed to the shards of the First World.

[jagged apex]

eh, not definitively, as it says "can be seen as..."

meaning it is a bit ambiguous, so while i will admit the possibility exists, i still stand by my earlier statement at least until we get an official answer that either by proxy or directly consolidates the two vecnas

[fast bobcat]

"It boldly claims Annam collected the fragments of the First World—the original world of the Material Plane, created by the primordial dragons Bahamut and Tiamat—and contributed in some way to their transformation into the Material Plane as it exists today with its myriad worlds."
Is from Bigbys, and supports the idea that it is not just dragons (which is also supported above) which exist across the multiverse, but at least one Giant God.

[jagged apex]

yeah but what i mean is at least from what i recall it does not mention giants having echos or otherwise different versions of the same person on each world, that is something that to my knowledge has only be confirmed officially for dragons

as that quote simply states that annam had a role in making the prime material worlds as we know them today, which even then is ambiguous

potentially more so if you ask me than the quote from fizban's

so for now, at best we can just agree to disagree

[jagged apex]

though now that i think of it, they could potentially address this sort of thing in the upcoming planescape

though am hesitant to account that until it releases and we have the full details rather than just going off the analogy and summaries given in the vids promoting it

cuz while i don't know if they are gunna be called echos i do now recall them mentioning a similar concept being a key factor in the accompanying adventure

[fast bobcat]

Recurring elements is a pretty common multiversal trope overall.

[jagged apex]

so smart thing i guess is if that comes up again, just put a pin in the subject matter so to speak until 5e planescape releases where we should have the full details on this similar concept

if it does wind up supporting the claim and i am proven wrong, at least we will have an official answer and be able to deduce that the events of his storylines on exandria and oerth may have been concurrent

not gunna lie, but did not think to include/factor in the 5e planescape stuff from dnd beyond's promotional vids, likely did not think to do so since it is not technically out yet and word of mouth from one person can sometimes differ from what is written

[fast bobcat]

I doubt there's going to be a solid answer to be fair.
Part of the point with origin myths like the first world is to shroud them in... well myths and stories.
But there's enough evidence throughout what references we have that the D&D settings are like ripples in the water, distorted reflections and afterimages left in the First World's wake.

[jagged apex]

though likely it will give us enough to deduce one way or the other rather than the current sort of unclear state of that sort of element

[fast bobcat]

Not much. It's basically talked about in the opening of Fitzban's and Bigby's, and a sidebar in Tasha's.

[jagged apex]

we know that it is real to the 5e continuity, cuz it is mentioned in both fizban's and bigby's, so though the poem like story of it does have some nuggests of truth to it, but so far all we know for sure is it existed and later shattered

[fast bobcat]

As a precursor world whose shattering created the multiverse

[cloud marten]

ah so it's basically just background lore then

[jagged apex]

at least as we know it, from my understanding original plan was for the draconic trio, tiamat, bahamaut, and sardior, were gunna work together and tailor each world for specific needs and purpose, but at least according to the poem, the other gods got impatient and moved into the first world before it was even done

[fast bobcat]

It might not be real, there could be other explanations for the recurring multiverse themes and Dragons might just have an intrinsic link.
There's enough to keep it ambiguous, but the echoes theory as presented in Fitzban and Tasha's does hold up in explaining why every D&D setting has a similar batch of races, recurring locations, and dragons

[jagged apex]

but ever since sardior's death alongside the first world's shattering tiamat and bahamut have never gotten along

[jagged apex]

far as i can tell is likely to at least be real, given that both sourcebooks at least reference the pieces of the world

[cloud marten]

considering were Tiamat is trapped in I don't see them fighting each other like Paladine and Takhisis fight each other

[jagged apex]

so they presumably would have to have existed in some capacity, but yeah what nuggets of truth are in the poem are few and otherwise unclear

[fast bobcat]

It's very much framed as a creation myth, with an emphasis on the myth bit.
The Dragons and Giants have their Poems, but the Dragons are also capable of passing info back and forth between their alternate selves across the settings.

[jagged apex]

not really a factor, as Paladine and Takhisis are in the published continuity aspects of bahamut and tiamat respectively

[fast bobcat]

Or a reflection of the primordial conflict between Bahamut and Tiamat.

[jagged apex]

either way is just the goddess tiamat's physical body that is trapped in avernus, only in the sense that she either can't manifest on the prime material plane or specifically toril, forget which

[cloud marten]

are they or are they not that doesn't matter with what I was going with

[jagged apex]

and by physical body i mean true body

ie go there and kill it, you kill her for good, or about as much as you can a god since for gods in dnd death is more like a divine comma

[unkempt merlin]

That is incorrect. Killing the body doesn't kill her

[cloud marten]

if you can't kill Takhisis then you can't kill Tiamat either

[jagged apex]

well my point is, the nature of their conflict has them opposing each other on other worlds, and her being trapped is not that she can't leave the plane of battor or avernus at all

[jagged apex]

last i checked it does if you have the right means and power and do so in her own realm, hense why i said "you go there..."

though she still technically has 2 bodies in the plane she resides in, her true body, and one that basically guards the door to dis as she is suppose to

[fast bobcat]

The adventurers are always free to try.

[cloud marten]

sure but it won't go like it did in DnD cartoon

[jagged apex]

but without divine status or doing so in their home plane of existence it ain't gunna stick even if they do succeed

[fast bobcat]

Hence the emphasis on try.

[jagged apex]

and even with divine status, you got to be of equal or greater status than the god you are trying to murder on top of having to do it in their divine realm where they are literally at their strongest

[cloud marten]

while Takhisis has been defeated and even by mortal riding dragon she was never killed and she was only forced to make truce

[jagged apex]

Vecna is the only potential exception to this, cuz of his unique situation of how he became a god, this is even reflected in his 5e statblock which is ment to be him before becoming a god

[jagged apex]

which we all know by now that she broke without hesitation, though was sneaky about it

[cloud marten]

well of course

that's how we got War of the Lance

[jagged apex]

kind of almost makes you wonder what was the point of the truce other than for forces that opposed her to take a breather

[cloud marten]

she even managed to sneak back after gods had suppossingly left Krynn second time

it might had been desperation from forces of good

[jagged apex]

but as i recall reading in shadow of the dragon queen, they also have slowly been coming back, at least by proxy now that i recheck

so while not as directly as the dragon queen, they are supposidly not gunna just sit helpless and likely are being indirect in their involvement cuz i'd imagine as gods of good they are trying to still uphold the truce on there end so it does not just give her an excuse

[cloud marten]

problem is that she isn't going to hold up truce so gods of good are basically basing they actions on wishful thinking

[jagged apex]

cuz with her being an aspect of tiamat, who is simultaneously Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil, i bet she would be willing to twist the rules of the truce to justify her acts if she felt the need to

[cloud marten]

there is also whole thing of draconians and they creation

[jagged apex]

honestly given the nature of gods in the dnd multiverse, not entirely surprised they are trying to stick to their morals and principels since that basically partially makes up their very being and or identity

also, tiamat being simultaneously 2 alignments at the same time is one thing that makes her one of my favorite characters among dnd's gods

[cloud marten]

I just find it funny that Takhisis seems to be more clever than Tiamat that she is supposingly reflecton of

[jagged apex]

probably because she has more power

cuz on krynn she is the top of the pecking order of the evil gods

tiamat in the likes of the forgotten realms is a lesser deity

plus unlike tiamat, takhisis never got tossed through a portal that bound her to a plane of existance, at least to my knowledge

[cloud marten]

fair enough

[jagged apex]

that happening in the orc gate wars on toril is supposedly why she can't manifest on toril outside of the very specific ritual used in the tryanny of dragons storyline, which technically worked, but her attempt was stopped before she could basically reach full power, much like the AL adventure which has a similar case with dendar the night serpent

[cloud marten]

that said she does also have something that Tiamat might not have, humanoid form of Dark Queen that seems to be her main form and not 5 headed dragon form

[jagged apex]

in the case with dendar is basically if he manages to escape and you don't defeat him there, he escapes successfully, achieves full power and goes to eat the sun

[jagged apex]

tiamat has that, her aspect known as the dark lady

[cloud marten]

ah I see

[jagged apex]

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tiamat#Description

though to my knowledge she has not really made use of it in published materials since 3e when her divinity had been briefly split into 3 and she dooped tchazzar into collecting them

[cloud marten]

Takhisis does seem to use her Dark Queen form more like when she contacts her mortal minions

[jagged apex]

and being a god's avatar, is despite the size category, likely just as strong in terms of ability scores as the aspect of tiamat statblock we got in fizban's

if stating out her humanoid form of the dark queen, i'd definitely use it as a template

[cloud marten]

oh they gave her official 5E stats

[jagged apex]

i forgot 😛

[cloud marten]

well then some party is sure to try to kill her

keyword being try

[jagged apex]

oh, no wait, they did not, unless you mean the aspect of tiamat, in which case yes, in fizban's but even if they kill that, since is an aspect, it effectviely does nothing but rob her of a tool for an amount of time till she can form a new one

[unkempt merlin]

If you mean the one in RoT, that's just one of her avatars. She doesn't die when that form is killed.

[cloud marten]

I don't have that book so I have no idea what they stated for her

[unkempt merlin]

It doesn't change what I said

[jagged apex]

either way she is a CR 30 creature, literally highest CR that the 5e system currently allows officially

[cloud marten]

no surprise there

[jagged apex]

honestly, the aspect version is arguably stronger

given it includes the mythic actions mechanic introduced in theros, which to be fair to the rise of tiamat one did not exist at the time

[iron saffron]

Didn't RoT come out before the PHB?

[unkempt merlin]

Yes

[jagged apex]

not really

was in development and released relatively alongside the phb and the dmg for 5e as was the first part of the adventure that leads into rise of tiamat

[unkempt merlin]

Oh wait my bad it was before the DMG

Knew it was one of the core

[iron saffron]

Or was it the MM? I knew it was one of the core books.

[jagged apex]

either way the two parts later got revamped into a single one named after the storyline "Tyranny of Dragons"

[iron saffron]

I heard that there was gameplay balance issue because they had assassins early on before the final cut for the assassin statblock was published in the MM.

Yeah, I sought out and bought ToD so it had all the erratas.

[jagged apex]

i heard since they were working to get the core 3 books out on time along with it, part of it was done by kobold press, which is why the blue dragon behavior in the adventure's first section is rather odd given they are known for their patience

like they had to outsource part of it to try to meat their deadline

though i have not gotten the revamped tyranny of dragons version i am presuming mistakes like that were fixed

or at the very least hope, else only way to explain it away is it being do to the personality of the specific blue dragon involved

you know what would be fun to get around the spooky season one of these years during 5e's life cycle? an adventure involving her aspect/alias as the undying queen, which is basically a skeletal dracolich version of herself that she used to infiltrate and manipulate a splinter cell of the cult of the dragon, would be cool to see some official art of that, cuz finding such currently is hard as heck

[golden fiber]

Anyone else super excited about exploring the Planescape set?

[iron saffron]

As a big fan of 2E Planescape I'm hesitant about it after 5E Spelljammer.

[golden fiber]

I am interested to see what sort of material gets released on DMsGuild

[iron saffron]

Probably 2E Planescape stuff that WotC tells DMs, "You make it up" in 5E Planescape.

[maiden mortar]

Heard someone claim in youtube comments that Zerthimons mummy eats Githzerai same way Vlaakith absorbs high level Githyanki, any truth to that?

[hazy fox]

Actually, King Pinch might be first one to make Gur as Romani-expy, assuming if they mistook "Stooge for a Fortune Teller" and made assumptions on said statement with mix of Romani stereotype.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Therin

[iron saffron]

I've never heard that. Zerthimon was the spiritual leader of the githerzai.

[maiden mortar]

Right, the guy was claiming Zerthimon was just as bad as Vlaakith and that sounded really odd to me

[iron saffron]

Youtube comment...

[maiden mortar]

Yeah they claimed it was 2e stuff so at best it was probably some old one off line that wasn't used in later stuff

[jagged apex]

sounds like they were operating off of homebrew, misinformation, or misunderstanding what was written, that or for some reason is spewing anti gith propiganda https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Zerthimon

he is from the video games mainly, only being mentioned in a probably not well known 5e adventure where the party is all composed of gith

[maiden mortar]

Yeah I didn't find anything on the wiki so I came here.

[jagged apex]

likely he has very little info on himself cuz of his few appearances

[summer tulip]

In FR does the spell animate dead send the soul of the person back into their old body, or is it kinda just like magic puppeting their remains? Kinda seems like a dm interpretation thing maybe, but maybe someone here knows if it has been specifically addressed

Wanting to run nuetralish Necromancer. I don't see him slamming the souls of good people back into their bodies. (Without them consenting I guess)

[white ravine]

Magic puppeting. Uses negative energy magic to basically shove an 'anti-soul' into the thing and give it 'life'.

It's why undead left to their own devices want to do nothing but kill. To them, we're the walking corpses.

A zombie left to its own devices in a field will probably stoop down and start crushing ants and ripping up grass.

[summer tulip]

So a responsible, morally gray necromancer would know not to just leave his minions about. As long as he isn't disturbing people's afterlife though guess he wouldn't mind doing it. Thanks 🍻

[white ravine]

Pretty much. It gets more dubious when you get into stronger undead and ghost-types.

Particularly, the sentient undead like ghouls.

[maiden mortar]

I know you specified FR, but since you seem to be looking into responsible necromancy, one angle you might steal from Eberron setting is that making undead soaks up ambient negative energy and keeps it from messing with the rest of the world

[jagged apex]

nope, it if anything makes a meat puppet

at least going by default lore and cosmologic norms

[fast bobcat]

Eberron also provides a counterpoint viewpoint to that, which is that Necromancy might be bringing negative energy into the world and slowly destroying it.
According to those Aerenal elves anyway.

[jagged apex]

in case of some undead creatures the magic that animates it can for lack of a better term become sentient to an extent

for undead negative energy is what positive energy is to living beings, in a way it is anti-life/anti-soul

[maiden mortar]

Aereni propaganda!

[jagged apex]

though since he is asking about Forgotten realms specifically, that does not matter, as a self contained cosmology like eberron does not change anything about the wider dnd multiverse, let alone the forgotten realms, closest thing would be someone with such views from eberron, traveling somehow to the forgotten realms and assuming that to be the norm rather than check and see how this world functions before going about doing things like practicing necromancy

[jagged apex]

basically necromancy is a tool, but using it to create an evil creature such as a type of undead that is specifically of evil alignment would be an evil action as it is being and evil being into existence

a morally grey necromancer would likely use their spells only in self defense and ones that if created anything created either neutral or unaligned creatures

much like other magics, it is a tool and the way you use it is what makes the act good or evil, necromancy just more often than not in the forgotten realms, and other settings, has been used for evil to where some would assume it is inherently evil, despite magics such as healing and reviving the dead to proper life are often also necromancy

as necromancy is the manipulation of the energies of life and death and at times the soul

[summer latch]

Any Skullport enthusiasts? I'm building a random encounter table for a one-shot for level 3 characters and was wondering if anyone had any ideas for some cool/unique encounters outside of the usual drow bandits or xanathar thugs. I feel like a lot of the really flavorful and cool stuff would be impossible for a level 3 party to take down.

[iron saffron]

Perhaps ask in #dm-discussion ?

[white ravine]

Was Volo always this much of a dopey idiot?

[iron saffron]

Yes. He should have died.

[maiden mortar]

I think a bit of it is obfuscating stupidity and the knowledge that ||He won't die because he's some kind of weave anchor or something? (Admittedly I only heard that second hand) so he won't take things as seriously as he should unless they get really bad, his book about Orins Slayer form in bg3 DOES give you a buff when fighting her though so he's accurate when he wants to be||

[unkempt merlin]

In short yes. He gets away with it by being one of Mystras specialist little guys.

[coral dagger]

What makes a mimic a mimic?

[jagged apex]

he is less of an idiot and more so rather bumbling and dramatic

his ability scores and such in 5e's tomb of annihilation are thusly
"STR
9 (-1)
DEX
12 (+1)
CON
10 (+0)
INT
15 (+2)
WIS
11 (+0)
CHA
16 (+3)"

so i'd say given 10 in a stat represents average, he is not an idiot

if anything is rather bumbling/clumsy and overly charismatic compared to your typical wizard

honeslty him being slightly more charismatic than he is smart and the manner in which he conducts himself and dresses, is likely why people tend to assume he is a bard when he is in fact a wizard, a low level one, but still a wizard

[jagged apex]

again is not so much as he is dumb, but that he is not as smart as his collogues and is not the most perceptive person and is a bit overly charismatic, which is reflected in the manner he conducts himself and the way he speaks even as depicted in bg3

like he may have studied to be a wizard, but dude totally was in his local improve group or drama club in his free time XD

also he likely does not know he is any sort of weave anchor, else i doubt he would have allowed himself to be talked into such dangerous situation as when mordenkainen, who views volo as a bit of a pain in the butt, sent him to study something in the domains of dread, specifically ravenloft

and at least in 5e his character flaw seems to suggest to some extent he knows he can tend to get on people's nerves

Flaw. “My penchant for indulgence and my propensity for mockery have earned me a few enemies. I tend to wear out my welcome.”

though far as i am aware he is still not aware that/how much mordenkainen dislikes him

which i honestly kind of find hilarious

[jagged apex]

ooh, just learned some interesting lore from watching bg3 about the founder of baldur's gate, at least in that game's version of the continuity :3

[hazy fox]

((Also I checked out and not sure when they made Gur as Romani-expy since they appeared in The Horde setting by David Cook (August 1990), but their description at that book feel like generic fantasy Mongolian and didn't have their own section.
Oddly, their description only come in both King Pinch (1995) and Heroes Lorebook (1996)--with both including Dale Donovan as author with latter having Paul Culotta as co-author--as "g[-word]-like people" with Therin, who was "stooge for a fortune-teller (assuming if someone mistook him as a fantasy Mongolian giant to Romani based on stereotypical assumption of that statement).
Like it was in 3E Forgotten Realms that justfied that Gur in Faerun resembled Romani but those in Hordeland resembled Mongolians--even allying with Tuigans.
ASSUMING if Cook read about Romani's forebears working as auxillaries in Central Asia Kingdoms, or just inconsistencies.))

[inner trellis]

I need a bit of help writing a backstory for my character that works with the current lore.
Its a bit too much to explain here, but the current state of the world is that every official module has happened already (minus the movie if you want to count that one as canon).
My character is extremely connected to Giants (Especially Storm Giants but all are kind of important) and I need to know the current state of Giant society.
I red something about the current king having died or something like that?
I would highly appreciate it if someone could give me a quick tour (or a place where I can read up on that myself).

[sharp owl]

Which setting?

[inner trellis]

Oh, right..
Faerun.

[pearl hinge]

Forgotten Realms.

[pearl hinge]

That's the continent, my friend.

[inner trellis]

True.

Forgotten Realms.

[pearl hinge]

I can tell how the Storm Giant King died if you want.

[inner trellis]

Sure!
I take any kind of information.

(Best if you send it via pm or in spoiler texts if that is part of an official module)

[sharp owl]

It should be noted that adventures are not contiguous to each other/don't form a singular canon

ie the events of Tomb of Annihilation don't occur before, after, or during the events of Storm Kings Thunder for example

[modest badger]

I think it's implied they're very close together though happening around the same time, due to Artus Cimber.

In SKT || The frost giants are hunting for Artus Cimber, a harper, who is said to have the ring of winter. He's currently missing||
In ToA ||You can find Artus Cimber hiding out in chult, and even encounter a frost giant band who's hunting him||
As far as i can recall.

That does imply that SKT at least starts before TOA.

[inner trellis]

Thank you VERY much! That is a huge start.

[feral lintel]

I love Storm King's Thunder! I'm thinking of having that as my next campaign!

[grim siren]

This is correct. The modules do have some level of interconnectivity. Though some digging has to be done because Wizards is a bit on the lazy side of properly dating things

Lost Mind of Phandelver is easy.

Acquisitions Incorporated takes place in 1496 DR, Year of the Duplicitous Courtier as stated by Jerry Holkins answered a question via Twitter/X. Since Lost Mines took place 5 years before this and that the Shattered Obelisk is an expansion 1491 DR Year of the Scarlet Witch is a safe bet.

Tyranny of Dragons is confusing.

The book does not state the date it takes place in. AL writer Greg Marks started it was 1489 DR, Year of the Warrior Princess. This comes from the Tyranny of Dragons Season of AL being stated as taking place that year.

However the Novel Archmage by R.A Salvatore takes place in 1485/1486 DR Year of the Iron Dwarf's Vengeance | Year of the Nether Mountain Scrolls respectively. And that novel refers to the events of the module in the past tense. As to who is correct is up in the air so most say around the early 1480s DR with a lean towards Salvatore's time stamp because of later adventures.

Princes of the Apocalypses is easy.

Chapter 2 calls out the adventure takes place in 1491 DR, Year of the Scarlet Witch

Out of the Abyss takes a tiny bit of inference.

We know the adventure wraps up the Rage of Demons Storyline. This places it at the end of Salvatore's Homecoming Trilogy, of Archmage, Maestro, Hero. This puts Out of the Abyss in 1486/1487 DR Year of the Nether Mountain Scrolls | Year of the Rune Lords Triumphant respectively.

Curse of Strahd while being a Ravenloft Module is mentioned in the Realms Novel Canon

The events of the module are a minor plot point in the Ed Greenwood book Death Masks, placing it firmly in 1491 DR, Year of the Scarlet Witch

Storm King's Thunder is when Wizards of the Coast went from lazily dating to seemingly becoming intentionally obtuse.

We can say that the module takes place after the year 1485 DR, Year of the Iron Dwarf's Vengeance. We can tell that because the book says so in Chapter 1. It gives a range of years from 1485 DR to 1493 DR, Year of the Purple Dragons.

Tomb of Annihilation is one of the Harder ones to pin down.

Its understood that the adventure takes place in-between 1488 DR, Year of Dwarvenkind Reborn and 1492 DR, Year of the Three Ships Sailing. The earlier date is based on the fact that Port Nyanzaru is stated to have gained independence from Amn nine years prior to the start of the adventure (p 15), which would be 1488 DR at the earliest given the city was firmly under Amnian control as of 1479 DR (as described in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide, p 102). The later date is based on the presence of Volothamp Geddarm, who is promoting the in-universe Volo's Guide to Monsters during the adventure (p 24) but is stated to have concluded his promotional tour and begun a new book as of Waterdeep: Dragon Heist (see pp 5, 24), which is understood to be set in 1492 DR.

The adventure is also assumed to take place concurrently with or slightly after the events of Storm King's Thunder based on the subplot you mentioned.

Waterdeep: Dragon Heist and Dungeon of the Mad Mage are easy

Christopher Perkins confirmed it to be 1492 DR, Year of the Three Ships Sailing. And the module states it takes place 1 year after the events of Death Mask, the Ed Greenwood novel which is set in 1491 DR, Year of the Scarlet Witch

Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus is a headache.

In the book it says that it takes place 50 years after 1444 DR, Year of the Seductive Cambion. One would think this would put it at 1494 DR, Year of Twelve Warnings. But that is not true, the Baldur's Gate Gazetter is dated in 1492 DR, Year of the Three Ships Sailing. And This is locked in by Baldur's Gate 3 being set in the same year.

Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden is easy.

At the beginning of the book it stakes 1489 DR, Year of the Warrior Princess.

Dragon of Icepsire Peak is easy as well

Unless there is a time loop happening in Phandalin, all of the NPCs have the same age. It can be easily assumed they take place in the same year 1491 DR Year of the Scarlet Witch

Spelljammer, Wild Beyond the Witchlight are undated and not mentioned in other dated realms material

So the Timeline goes something like.

D&D Next

**Murder in Baldur's Gate **

1482 DR
**Reclaiming Blingdentone **
1482-1485 DR
**Confrontation at Candlekeep **
1482-1485 DR
**Dead in Thay **
1485
**Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle **
1485 DR
**Scourge of the Sword Coast **
1485 DR
**Legacy of the Crystal Shard **
1485 DR
**Vault of the Dracolich **
1485-1487 DR

D&D 5e
Dragons of Stormwreck Isle

1481 DR
**Tyranny of Dragons **
1485/1486 DR
**Out of the Abyss **
1486/1487 DR
**Storm King's Thunder **
1485-1492 DR
**Tomb of Annihilation **
1488-1492 DR
**Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden **
1489 DR
**Lost Mines of Phandelver **
1491 DR
**Phandelver and Below: The Shattered Obelisk **
1491 DR
**Dragon of Icepspire Peak **
1491 DR
**Curse of Strahd **
1491 DR
**Waterdeep: Dragon Heist **
1492 DR
**Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage **
1492 DR
**Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus **
1492 DR
**Orrery of the Wanderer **
1496 DR

Of course no one will hold you to these dates but none the less one of the best part of the realms its that its is far far from a stagnant world.

[tame locust]

In 3.5 ravenloft, some dead can become undead just because people miss them so much.

Is that a thing in 5e?

[iron saffron]

The 3.5E Ravenloft module?

There was no 3E Ravenloft campaign setting (but apparently White Wolf briefly published it).

[jagged apex]

and Light of Xaryxis from the spelljammer bundle can potentially it seems fit roughly around either lost minds of phandelver and dragon of icespire peak, do to a bit here in the introduction section under "where to begin?"
quote "If you used Lost Mine of Phandelver (the adventure in the Dungeons & Dragons Starter Set) or Dragon of Icespire Peak (the adventure in the Dungeons & Dragons Essentials Kit) to get the characters to 5th level, then Light of Xaryxis begins in the same region featured in those introductory adventures: the Sword Coast in the Forgotten Realms setting, on the world of Toril. The city of Neverwinter, one of several major ports along the Sword Coast, could easily be where the characters find themselves at the beginning of this adventure." unquote

so even though it is not hard tied to one established setting other than the one the bulk of the adventure is centered around, it is enough to where we can at least put it roughly in the time line since we have refferences to 2 other adventures for those who use it in their own table's series of adventures in the realms if going from module to module in a chronological order

[white ravine]

Is there any precedent on differences in angels between each god?

[halcyon dawn]

Thank you so much for this!!!

[iron saffron]

Which edition? 4E kinda got rid of the deva, planetar, and solar and replaced them with generic angels (who weren't bound by the Good alignment).

[white ravine]

All of the above

[unkempt merlin]

Do you mean like. Appearance wise? Statistically?

[white ravine]

Looking to flavor out some angels and need reference material

Uhhh...lets go with yes

[unkempt merlin]

Cause servants of different gods do look different

In most settings anyway

[white ravine]

I cant recall specifically if thats the case for angels however

Or at least the degree of difference

[unkempt merlin]

So two solars might have a lot of differences

[white ravine]

Well yeah, but is there anything already written in that vein? Wanna see the stuff already done before I go full 'BE NOT AFRAID' when the biggest difference is ear shape

...Then again, the 'BE NOT AFRAID' angle could work for Savras since his whole thing are orbs with eyes...

[unkempt merlin]

Do you have a specific setting in mind?

[iron saffron]

Twin solars who serve Corellon
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Felarathael
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Lashrael

Felarathael and Lashrael were identical twins, with both appearing as tall, beautiful and androgynous elves of no particular race, with shining bodies and wearing gleaming white robes

[unkempt merlin]

Only examples I can think of off the top of my head are Exandria and Eberron, but obviously eberron is a bit of a different approach when it comes to outsiders in general

[white ravine]

Thaaaats a start! Anythin else we got?

I do enjoy the twins angle...hm...

[white ravine]

I will never see warforged the same again...

[grim siren]

I love the The Celestial Hebdomad
and the old Archons when I want to be weird with angels.

[unkempt merlin]

?

[iron saffron]

1E AD&D solars were limited to 24 in total number. I think later editions removed that limitation.

4E devas were playable races (in lieu of aasimars).

[white ravine]

There's implications given that the ghulra on the foreheads of warforged and the sigils carved into soul coins are the same type of magic, which would not be too far fetched for eberron given its...fiend problems.

[white ravine]

Still cant believe that happened

Is there any information on angels of selune?

[grim siren]

Yes!

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shards

[unkempt merlin]

Sure but what does that have to do with what I was saying?

I was referring to how outsiders can vary in appearance very dramatically depending on plane of origin.

[white ravine]

That throws wrenches into things, but at least it seems theyre a sub-sect of planetars.

[white ravine]

Iirc yugoloths also use the same magic to put their souls into objects, which is a big thing about eberron (if unrelated) as a whole that spooks me

[unkempt merlin]

A fernian deva might have wings of fire and molten looking skin, while a shavarathi one might look like a monster manual one but in gleaming armor, or a thelanian one looking like a fairy or some sort of stereotypical story trope

[white ravine]

Makes Zariel almost seem boring...

[grim siren]

Some other awesome celestials

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shirokinukatsukami

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Bariaur

[white ravine]

The HELL is that first name?!

[grim siren]

think hollyphant but cooler in every single way

[white ravine]

...

Wack.

[unkempt merlin]

The same concepts apply for other outsiders like fiends. Fiends also have the benefit of being able to be compared to native fiends, who most often take on appearances influenced by their overlords. Much like how fiends in other settings did in accordance to their archdevil/demon lord

[white ravine]

Surprisingly easy to say, too. Hm.

[white ravine]

Yeah, thats what got me thinking on angels a bit more and if it went both ways

[iron saffron]

5E needs to bring back the guardinels

[grim siren]

Zariel is just the stories of Malkizid and Raziel blended together

[iron saffron]

There are plenty of other celestial types

[grim siren]

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Malkizid

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Raziel

[unkempt merlin]

The baku celestial ye

[unkempt merlin]

In short yes they do. Even before you start to get into actually different celestial types

[iron saffron]

Not celestials but they were LG magical beasts back in 3E
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Lammasu
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shedu

[jagged apex]

not to my knowledge, though i imagine if demons in service to a demon lord can take on aspects/elements of that lord, seems reasonable that a similar thing can occure with angels and other celestials in relation to their gods

[tame locust]

Yeah, in 3.5, not in 3.

[iron saffron]

There was no WotC published Ravenloft campaign setting in 3E/3.5E.

[modest badger]

There was for 3e if I recal

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2478/Ravenloft-30

Although as 'Sword and Sorcery' rather than 'D&D'

Although still an official WotC product

[iron saffron]

3rd party.
Apparently White Wolf took over the Ravenloft setting for a bit.

[tame locust]

I wasn't specifically asking about who published any particular book.

I was asking if in 5e, there was a type of undead that was animated through the sadness of people missing them.

[iron saffron]

I was asking which 3E book because I never heard of a specific undead Ravenloft monster that was animated through "love."

I'm not denying there wasn't, I'm just curious which monster(s) it was.

[tame locust]

I did not mention version 3. I was referring to version 3.5 I believe you might find it in Van Richten's guide to the undead, in version three point five.

[cloud marten]

image coming back as undead because some loved one didn't want to let go

[tame locust]

Compelling, and terrifying, no?

[iron saffron]

There's ghosts.

[modest badger]

I think Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead is still '3e' S&S rather than 3.5 D&D
But finding out which monster that is, or the old lore can help. But I don't think 5e Van Richtan has anything quite like that.

[jagged apex]

the 5e creature you may be thinking of is not an undead, it is a monstrosity

for some reason they seem to no longer be anywhere on the forgotten realms wiki, whcih is rather odd, so next best thing i can do without copying the info from monsters of the multiverse is link the critical role wiki's page for them https://criticalrole.fandom.com/wiki/Sorrowsworn

[modest badger]

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Sorrowsworn

[jagged apex]

the one you are likely thinking of is the lonely

https://www.dndbeyond.com/avatars/thumbnails/25746/498/1000/1000/637880557778773690.jpeg

[jagged apex]

wrong one

the ones in 5e and the one you linked are not related, like at all

[modest badger]

Right, because likely the CR ones are CR specific, based on these but different.

So when it comes to Ravenloft creatures, still doesn't help.

[jagged apex]

all i know is the one you linked is the one i found when trying to search the for the ones in 5e, only to find they don't seem to have a page anymore on the forgotten realms wiki, only the unrelated species of demon with which happen to simply be called sorrowsworn

and they are less a ravenloft thing and more of a shadowfell thing anyways

and in 5e canon cosmology, ravenloft, and the other domains of dread, are located in a specific part of the shadowfell, kind of like it's own planar territory

and if they were not thinking of the 5e lonely sorrowsworn and had just been misremembering some details, i am not aware of such a creature existing in 5e published materials

[modest badger]

Looks like the FR wiki page for Sworrowsworn has not been updated properly- someone put in the connection to the 5e one, but failed to cite nor add in the new statistics, or they are debating on if they should be given separate pages.
Even so, the sworrowsworn of 3.0 are the ones mentioned in the FR wiki. So unrelated to Ravenloft.

[modest badger]

The original question was:

In 3.5 ravenloft, some dead can become undead just because people miss them so much.

Is that a thing in 5e?

[jagged apex]

though would be the more likely to be found there as i recall some lore about demons and other fiends basically snagging souls by possession that is basically them slowly swapping places bit by bit with the target

[modest badger]

Although which undead in 3.5 or which lore book hasn't been established.

[jagged apex]

either way i am not aware of any UNDEAD that match that description at all in 5e, at least not in any official published materials

so my only potential guess was that he might have been thinking of the lonely sorrowsworn and was misremembering some details, else no clue what they are reffering to

[modest badger]

3e S&S 'Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead' gave five causes for reanimation:
Magic- so, necromancy
Spawning- another undead capable of making more undead spawned them
Cursed- Improper burial or some misconduct (like cannibalism) or somehow society itself cursing you with malice (this might be closer to what you were thinking)
Sudden death- you die so suddenly you don't realise you're dead but get confused and angry when things don't work the way they're meant to (or perhaps this?)
Dark Desire- man too angry to die refuses to stay dead

[white ravine]

Zombies
Vampire Spawn
Banshees
Ghosts
Revenants

[shrewd bobcat]

Is there much crossover between the Fey and Celestials?

3e had Celestial Eladrin.

[modest badger]

Unicorn bounces between 'Magical beast', 'Fey' and 'Celestial' throughout the editions too

[shrewd bobcat]

Eladrin shouldn't of been made a playable race.
At least not with the same name

[frail lark]

Has anyone here read the Avatar series

[iron saffron]

Shadowdale, Tantras, Waterdeep, Prince of Lies, and Crucible?

[frail lark]

Yes those ones

I was wondering your opinions on it

I’m reading shadowdale right now and it’s my first forgotten realms book and I’m really interested.

[iron saffron]

I think I read the first three a LOOOONG time ago.

[frail lark]

The age of the books adds charm

[iron saffron]

This was the first of the "catalysts" that redefined the Forgotten Realms (there were narrative reasons why the rules were changing between editions).

[frail lark]

Was it 2e to 3e?

I’m just starting dnd because I really liked baldurs gate 3 and the troubles seemed the coolest

[iron saffron]

Tablet of Fate was between 1E and 2E

[frail lark]

Oh

Do I need to know anything lore wise as a player

Or is that more dm things

[iron saffron]

Depends which campaign setting you're playing in.

If it's the Forgotten Realms, you can find most of what you need to know with the FR wiki.

[jagged apex]

depends by what you mean by much, but there are some cases, like unicorns arguably are associated with both

[jagged apex]

well at least on the forgotten realms wiki the two have been destinguished being listed as the Celestial Eladrin and the Fey Eladrin respectively

if not for the elven equivalent of a Tiefling being called fey'ri, one could presume eladrin was the term for planar elves with ties to a specific kinds of extra planar life

so if the celestial ones do make an appearance in 5e, they likely will either rename them or simply specify them when reffering to the two outside of digital materials like dnd beyond

cuz with dnd beyond and the way it's digital stuff works, you can tell which one it would be referring to just by scrolling over the term "Eladrin", provided it is all coded properly when they add it in

[iron saffron]

The celestial eladrin were tougher in 3.5E

They were essentially the elven "angels"

[jagged apex]

eh, bit invalid, since creatures when compared to the 2 editions are not equal even if the same creature there are differences in cr cuz of the systems being different all though similar at their cores

but regardless, they are effectviely two seperate creatures but there is no reason the 2 can't co-exist and the wiki shows they easilly enough can be consolidated and distinguished with more proper naming and could leave room for the term eldarin to actually mean something, as to my knowledge the term does not have an actual meaning, it is just a name

plus it is not like they are the only creatures of such a nature, remember historically these are also a thing https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Celadrin

like easily one could argue the celestial eladrin and celadrin are effectively the same creature conceptually if either were to be adapted to 5e

[modest badger]

It's mostly an edition thing.

2e Eladrin was a collective term for natives to Arborea: Bralani, course, noviere, shiere, and Firre, ghaele, tulani (latter three being 'greater' eladrin). And while they got along with the Elven (and Greek!) pantheon, they actually served their own Queen of Stars. They weren't described as fey or celestial, but being natives of Arborea made them 'good' outsiders (MC Ap.ii Planescape, 1995), the same in 3.5 (MM 3.5, 2003) .

The connection to elves and fey came in one 2e book 'Warriors of Heaven' (1999), which actually made it clear elves and eladrin were distinct:

Eladrins are in fact members of a separate species; they are only distantly related to elves. -p.7

"Some believe elves who age beyond their mortal lifespans become eladrins in the elven equivalent of the afterlife. Others have suggested that the spirits of slain chaotic good elves reappear in Arborea as newly formed eladrins. The Eladrins themselves are silent about the issue, but infact neither of these suspistions are true. Though some of these** faerie **beings could pass for elves, and the race as a whole is on good terms with the elven pantheon, eladrins are born on Arborea to eladrin parents, not created from mortal beings. -p.57
(Also they were a playable race even back then in Warriors of Heaven)
The above 'faerie beings' is where the wikia got it's 'fey celestials' idea from. Honestly I'd argue thats a misleading description- they are not fey and were not classified as fey in 2e or 3e. But then again 2e didn't do strict creature types, so 'faerie' as a loose descriptor would be similar to calling them 'fey'- not as a creature type, but just an adjective.
These are what the wikia refer to as 'Celestial' eladrin because they are celestials as good planar outsiders. But not fey. Note that none of the sources for that page are younger than 2008.

So 4e wanted both woodsy elves and more scary/aloof fey elves, so made the Feywild an actual thing:

The 3rd Edition Manual of the Planes introduced the idea of Faerie as a plane of existence that lay outside the standard cosmology. It was a parallel plane like the Plane of Shadow touching the world in many places, similar to it in general form and landscape, but hauntingly beautiful and inhabited by fey. That’s the plane we adopted into the cosmology as the Feywild.

and then made their version of Eladrin:

One aspect of legendary and literary Faerie is that the fey are curiously amoral. They don’t think of Good and Evil in the same way that mortals do, and they can be cruel or murderous almost on a whim. Those are the fey we wanted in the Feywild. The Feywild is home to unearthly eladrins who might call up the Wild Hunt and rampage through the mortal world to avenge some real or imagined wrong, or just because the moon is in a certain phase.
4e, Wizards Presents Races and Classes

And so 'Eladrin' now became 'High Elf' and the 'Celestial' Eladrin was merged and lost in 4e:

Given the story we’d settled on for the high elves (a race of fey lords who live in castles in Faerie), it seemed that** it would actually be counterproductive to also bring forward the eladrin into the new edition (a race of fey lords who live in Arborea, a plane that looks a lot like Faerie). In a sense, eladrin and high elves were competing for the same conceptual space, so we chose to combine them into a single race of fey lords and made the Feywild their home.** The name “eladrin” became available to use as the name of the “high elf ” player character race.
4e, Wizards Presents Races and Classes

This is where we get the 5e Eladrin from. Although playable eladrin is'Humanoid' and NPC Eladrin are 'Fey' which certainly can be confusing. The 'Fey Eladrin' article on the wiki is the latter. Again note, no source older than 2008.

Eladrin have spent centuries in the Feywild, and most of them have become Fey creatures as a result—those presented here are of the Fey variety. Some are still Humanoid, however, similar in that respect to their other elven kin.
-MPMM

Also in 5e, 'Eladrin' are just 'Celestial Elves' now it seems?

Arborea is home to many elves and elven deities. Elves born on this plane have the celestial type and are wild at heart, ready to battle evil in a heartbeat. Otherwise, they look and behave like normal elves.
-DMG p.60

So in 5e you can be:

• Humanoid (Elf) Eladrin
• Fey (Elf) Eladrin
• Celestial (Elf) Elves (not actually referred to as Eladrin, but matches the description from previous editions of celestial elflike natives born on Arborea)

With only the top one being a playable option.

[jolly bolt]

Whats the difference between devils and demons? Like where they live and what they do

[crude blaze]

Devils are categorically Lawful Evil. Still bad, but they operate under an odd cosmological bureaucracy. Demons are destruction incarnate.

[molten cairn]

How long has the blood war gone for?

cause i cant find anything on an estimated amount of years

[sharp owl]

As long as both devils and demons have coexisted

It's ancient beyond reckonning

[white ravine]

A devil is what your thinking of when you think of The Devil. Schemes, deals, cruelty.

A demon is what your thinking of DOOM. Vile monsters who crave violence and destruction over anything else.

[sharp owl]

They both have the same goal; to take over the multiverse (evil). But while devils want to subjugate all beneath the tyrannical order (lawful), demons want to burn everything to ashes (chaotic). Given that one of the quickest ways to the material plane from the Abyss is travelling via the River Styx, which runs right through the Nine Hells starting with Avernus, this puts demons on a collision course with devils since they existed

[jagged apex]

a devil will basically business man legalese you into eternal damnation in a technically legal, in the laws of the cosmos, way, a demon will tear you limb from limb and be home in time to do the same to the first thing to piss it off that is not stronger than it

[jagged apex]

the demon lord orcus arguably takes what the demons do to the extreme cuz he wants to extinguish ALL other forms of life in the multiverse, to where he is effectively the only being left in existence, and anything else is merely mindless undead that are an extension of himself

another notable extreme among demons is the demon lord yeenoghu, who basically just wants to murder everything, last i checked, and once thing but he and his followers are dead, then murder each other until there is just one last standing, ideally in his mind himself

[jagged apex]

on the note of devils, also technically legal evil, hence things like the pact primeval

[jagged apex]

honestly only real goal they have in common if anything is domination and or winning the bloodwar, but domination means very different things between the 2 beings last i checked

[jagged apex]

honestly, likely since before time was ever being kept track by anyone

as depending on the lore you go with, the devils started out as basically the black ops group for the forces of law, to keep the abyss and the demons within as contained as possible

as remember, the earliest conflict in the dnd cosmos is one of Law vs Chaos

if anything what we consider the archetypical "good vs evil" is a more recent kind of conflict and less important cuz how basically the abyss and the demons in it are threat to all of existence in the dnd multiverse

[jagged apex]

in short, long enough to where a particular numerical measure of time would be not only pointless, but likely inaccurate

[remote isle]

I know that the Vanthampur have a family motto, do we know what there crest looks like?

[frail lark]

Did Mystryl die from Helm or Karthus’ folly?

Or was there 2 mystras

[white ravine]

Karsus killed Mystryl

I believe Helm's incident was...Midnight?

[frail lark]

Oh wait I get it

There’s 2 mystras

Mystryl died from Karsus. Mystra died from helm and Mystra Midnight is the current

I just thought Mystryl died too helm

[white ravine]

Seems about right afaik

[hidden current]

question, I know lorewise demilich is supposed to be an upgraded lich but of that is the case why is the CR rating of a demilich lower than a regular lich?

[obsidian gate]

who said that demiliches are supposed to be an upgrade?

they always were the consequence of a Lich basically starving

at best, being a demilich was always more of a sidegrade

[unkempt merlin]

Which is also why they are a lower CR

Because they are a starved lich

[hidden current]

"Despite the name, a demilich was not a lesser lich, but rather a lich who had evolved beyond a need for its undead body"

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Demilich

[hidden current]

this is where it says they are an upgrade

[obsidian gate]

this mixes in a lot of old lore, but more crucially, it doesnt say demilichs are more powerful than lichs. it says they dont need a body anymore but that doesnt make them more dangerous in a fight necessarily

[pallid berry]

how was umberlee born/created? pls ping

[iron saffron]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[white ravine]

Theyre lower CR, but typically more magically potent. Ripping the soul straight out of you, more knowledge on necromantic arts, higher capacity for creating threats

They aren't more dangerous themselves, but they are usually capable of causing more danger

[hidden current]

ok got it thanks

[white ravine]

A demilich using some giant carcass as a gundam is not far fetched...

[modest badger]

3.5 switched it so demiliches ended up being more powerful, but every other edition kept it as being a weakened thing if I recall.

3.5 Demilich, Epic Level Handbook:

Demiliches are wiser, older, and far deadlier than common liches.
A demilich often appears as a single skull whose eye and tooth sockets have been fitted with costly gems. Other demiliches might appear as gem-encrusted bones of another type, such as a skeletal hand or spine. The gems gleam wickedly with the light of stolen souls being slowly devoured. Particularly powerful liches sometimes learn the secret of fashioning soul gems, and so evolve to demilichdom. Demiliches are free to roam distant planes in astral form, leaving behind their physical remains to brood in dark tombs of horror. In their planar wanderings, which span centuries, demiliches seek to discover all the secrets of the multiverse, and beyond, applying themselves to the study of epic spells, the location of unique artifacts, and the keys to release and control imprisoned abominations.

[modest badger]

Lorewise they aren't, but in 3.5 they were. In every other edition they're more like the discarded remains of an ascended lich or in 5e, a starved lich.

[hidden current]

remind me whats an ascended lich?

[modest badger]

AD&D:

Demilich is a misleading term in that one might assume the "demi" refers to status. However, it refers to the state of the lich. Only a small part of the body of a lich remains-dust, the skull, and possibly a few bones.
A lich (q.v.) is a human magic-user and/or cleric of surpassing evil who has taken the steps necessary to preserve its life force after death. Ultimately, even the undead life force of a lich begins to wane. Over centuries the lich form decays, and the evil soul roams strange planes unknown to even the wisest of sages. This remaining soul is a demilich.

It was consider Level 9 (IX) and gave XP 5950 + . A lich was considered level 10 (X) (in MM ii 'level' for 1e).

I'm using ascended here to mean a lich like the above, where the soul begins to wander the planes, leaving behind a decayed form

However in 5e demiliches are liches who have waned because they haven't been feeding themselves properly:

The immortality granted to a lich lasts only as long as it feeds mortal souls to its phylactery. If it falters or fails in that task, its bones turn to dust until only its skull remains. This "demilich" contains only a fragment of the lich's malevolent life force-just enough so that if it is disturbed, these remains rise into the air and assume a wraith-like form.

[jagged apex]

do we know if it is possible for portals/crossing to the feywild and shadowfell are capable overlapping or otherwise be in such close proximity that if you are not paying attention you could accidently wind up going through one when you wanted to go through the other?

[north vault]

No lore example except maybe Rashemen, but nothing prevents it from being possible.

Rashemen is a land where the feywilds is close to the material plane, that's the reason why they have so many nature spirits. But in Rashemen, the veil is also thin between the material and the shadowfell, as demonstrated by NWN2 where a core mechanic of the expansion is jumping from one plane to the other

[hidden current]

acererrak is a demilich and he is pretty powerful

[iron saffron]

He's the honey badger of demiliches.

[hidden current]

honey badger?

[iron saffron]

(sigh) Search for the viral video on Youtube...

Explaining the joke ruins it...

[modest badger]

In the 1e ToH the Demilich part of Acererak is indeed fairly easy to beat in comparison to the true spirit of Acererack who is floating off in unknown planes. It's even part of the explanation of the place- the reason why you can beat him. It's because you're fighting his left overs.

[modest badger]

Not everyone will know every meme, especially older ones or ones from other languages. No need to be passive aggressive about it.

[iron saffron]

Nevermind...

And I wasn't being passive aggressive.

[ionic rivet]

Okay let's move on

[jagged apex]

incase anyone can provide a better answer than what praetor slimmy was able to provide, i ask because i had an idea for a new kind of dragon that would be rooted in the origin of the moonstone dragon, though in this case it would have wound up in the shadowfell and thus had a more cruel, dark, and twisted transformation undergo the dragon that otherwise lead in the feywild to the moonstone dragons we see today

[frail lark]

Raphael is Mephistos son, does him being only half devil make him weaker?

[white ravine]

Half-devils (cambions) are generally less powerful than full devils, yeah

[frail lark]

How would he compare to a regular devil baatezu?

[white ravine]

Ehhh...depends on some factors.

Such as what kind of cambion mix it is, what kind of devil are we comparing it to, etc.

Also, stir up in the context of...?

[frail lark]

Oh sorry, I really just assumed everyone played baldurs gate 3

This is the dnd server 😂

[iron saffron]

Baldur's Gate 3 isn't official D&D lore (it's video game licensed from WotC).

If you want to talk about BG3 there's the #baldurs-gate-3-spoilers channel.

[frail lark]

Is forgotten realms dnd official?

I don’t get how the world lore stuff works

[iron saffron]

Yes, the Forgotten Realms is a WotC official campaign setting, at least the stuff officially published by WotC. BG3 was developed by Larian, not WotC.

[white ravine]

In fairness they worked side by side lore-wise

It's """"""""unofficial"""""""""

[iron saffron]

Also, not everyone has played BG3 so please keep spoilers in #baldurs-gate-3-spoilers

[frail lark]

Ok I deleted the spoiler

The issue is I keep finding bg3 in forgotten realms wiki and idk what’s canon now

[white ravine]

I dont really see why it wouldnt be official, aside from not being a book printed by WOTC

forgotten realms is forgotten realms is forgotten realms

[iron saffron]

It's not to say that the D&D video games, or at least parts of them, can't become official lore later. Minsc and Boo were from the original BG games but they appeared later in the 5E Spelljammer books (for some unknown reason...).

Morte from Planescape: Torment will be in 5E Planescape.

[frail lark]

Would cards in motg be canon?

[iron saffron]

(Probably says more about WotC being creatively lazy and unable to come up with new memorable characters for 5E)

[frail lark]

Lol

[iron saffron]

Well, WotC released a statement a couple years ago pretty much only the 5E books are "canon"

Our studio treats D&D in much the same way that Marvel Studios treats its properties. The current edition of the D&D roleplaying game has its own canon, as does every other expression of D&D. For example, what is canonical in fifth edition is not necessarily canonical in a novel, video game, movie, or comic book, and vice versa. This is true not only for lore but art as well.

They're basically washing their hands of making new lore because they want the players to make their own canon at their own table (something people have already been doing for decades).

[frail lark]

Ah I see I get it. Baldurs Gate is like a dnd campaign where Larian made their own “professional” canon. So in conclusion larian is just like us making our own table canon

[iron saffron]

Yeah, they even homebrewed rules for the game.

[frail lark]

Interesting 🧐

Thanks

[scarlet slate]

Just thinking, back when the mind flayers enslaved the gith, why didn't they do it the old fashioned way, with tadpoles, or did they, and im missing something ? lol

[sharp owl]

Because that doesn't create slaves, that creates mind flayers

The illithids enslave people do

1. Provide food
2. Perform the jobs they deem "below" illithids

Turning someone into an illithid to do the jobs an illithid is too good to do kinda defeats the purpose

[jagged apex]

the reason the tadpoles could be used to enthrall people in bg3 is specifically do to some elements specific to that story which at least i as someone familiar with the lore was fairly clear, if that is what you are thinking when you are saying using tadpoles, normally tadpoles are used for creating new illithid or in the case of certain hosts, ceremorphs

[jagged apex]

at most bg3 could be considered "soft canon" meaning until we get info in published materials that contradict the info from the game, it can be presumed some version of the events did happen, kind of like how some people use older editons to fill in blanks that 5e has yet to address regarding certain events, settings, parts of settings, ect...

though technically if going by wizard's statement a while back, as a different form of media it is part of it's own continuity

honestly between the various editions and forms of media, one could argue that like some IP like dragonball, dnd has more than one continuity

[sharp owl]

That's not correct, BG3 is it's own, independent canon

D&D Studio Blog - D&D Canon

Our studio treats D&D in much the same way that Marvel Studios treats its properties. The current edition of the D&D roleplaying game has its own canon, as does every other expression of D&D. For example, what is canonical in fifth edition is not necessarily canonical in a novel, video game, movie, or comic book, and vice versa. This is true not only for lore but art as well.

On the subject of canon:

Fifth edition’s canon includes every bit of lore that appears in the most up-to-date printings of the fifth edition Player’s Handbook, Monster Manual, and Dungeon Master’s Guide. Beyond these core rulebooks, we don’t have a public-facing account of what is canonical in fifth edition because we don’t want to overload our fellow creators and business partners.
...
we use canonical lore internally to maintain consistency across our fifth-edition products.

It is possible to stitch together lore from different mediums if they don't conflict and while that won't give you a canon, it will give you a bigger picture

This channel however isn't too concerned with canon specifically, just lore

[modest badger]

The way I approach these things is that they are all, in some way, 'official' lore, but you need to use your own intuition for how that lore would fit for your game or in the D&D multiverse in general.

Similar to referring back to older edition lore. Referring back to lore even as far back as 1e isn't wrong but it might not always apply to a 5e game or to all settings. It might be outdated, abandoned or retconned at some point. You need to try and figure out which one from cross referencing. And even then if old lore has never been contradicted but also not yet reappeared in 5e you're under no obligation to treat it as 'canon' for your games.

Lore from the novels and games can certain set interesting precedents or expansions for lore, but like the above is up to you on how much weight you want to give it.

[sharp owl]

Yeah, official and canonical aren't synonyms

[hidden current]

not sure if this counts as lore but does anyone have any guesses on when the d&d paramount series will be out? i haven't heard anything since they announced the writer, producer, creator, and showrunner back in april .

[sharp owl]

Does not count as lore

[slate spoke]

How does birth work in Planescape?

[sharp owl]

That question is worringly vague

Can you reframe the question perhaps?

Note that Planescape isn't a place

It's a concept (as far as settings go) like Spelljammer

[crude blaze]

Yeah, it's more like a meta-level title.

Like people in the Greyhawk setting don't go around saying they're in Greyhawk, they're in Oerth.

[sharp owl]

While "Forgotten Realms" is a place (Sword Coast/Faerun/Toril), Planescape is an idea (what if you lived somewhere that put you close to all the outer planes and could venture between them). Same with Spelljammer (what if you could sail through space to other worlds)

@slate spoke So do you wanna maybe rephrase your question?

[slate spoke]

Planescape has thematic elements that exist solely for itself. For example, the rule of three. So no, I don't want to rephrase.

[sharp owl]

Your question still doesn't make sense

[slate spoke]

If you don't want to answer the question, that's fine.

[sharp owl]

No, I'm stating your question lacks key information to be answerable

How does what about birth work?
On what plane featured in planescape setting?
If not on a specific plane, in respect to which thematic element?

Are you asking where, for example, new souls come from on Sigil? Or if it's possible to conceieve a child in the outlands?

Are you asking what kind of midwifery is available in Bitopia?

[spark haven]

Are you asking if people get paternity/maternity leave?

[sharp owl]

"Birth" is an incredibly broad topic, and the only think more broad is "Planescape"

Those kinda multiply in terms of broad vagueness

[slate spoke]

Wow

I feel talked down to

[spark haven]

hey bytopia is pretty cool, never heard about this place before

[iron saffron]

Planescape is a campaign setting and not one particular place.

[sharp owl]

You're being engaged with, your question taken seriously

[civic cobalt]

Honestly your question doesn't make a lot of sense.

[sharp owl]

I know I'd love answer the question if it was clearer what the question was

[iron saffron]

You're asking about reproduction in the multiverse itself. That's very vague.

[spark haven]

the question is about as clear as "how does red work on tuesday?"

[sharp owl]

Better than green does on a Friday, I'll tell you that

[slate spoke]

Ok. So, in Planescape, the overarching setting, how are people born. If you really need a specific place, answer across all categories of place and then I will pick those that are related. They will include Sigil, the outlands, and the upper planes.

[magic jackal]

People are born the same way literally anywhere else

[spark haven]

Wikipedia has a pretty good article on how childbirth works if you're curious

[iron saffron]

Again, Planescape is a campaign setting not a singular place. Planescape covers the multiverse (mostly the Outer Planes).

[spark haven]

You can read all you like there

[slate spoke]

For context, Spelljammer is very specific about the fact that people cannot be born into the astral plane.

[iron saffron]

A good chunk of Planescape (the setting) happens in or around the city of Sigil.

[sharp owl]

Yes, because in the Astral Plane you don't age

that's a very specific detail

[slate spoke]

This is specifically untrue, see above

[iron saffron]

Well, 2E Spelljammer wasn't in the Astral Plane, but I digress.

[sharp owl]

They were referring to the Planescape setting, which doesn't include the Astral Plane as it relates to Spelljammer

[magic jackal]

What that means is "The general rule that birth works as normal applies unless something specific in a specific part of the larger setting says otherwise"

[sharp owl]

The fact people can't be born in Astral Plane is a result of the fact that people don't age in the Astral Plane

It's why Githyanki have garrison creches across the material plane

[magic jackal]

That's like asking "How does birth work in the Forgotten Realms", someone says "Like normal" and then you using the Astral Plane as a counterexample as "See actually it doesn't work normally in the Forgotten Realms"

[sharp owl]

However, the outer planes, the Outlands, and Sigil are not affected by that

If your question was "Does the effect that prevents aging, and thus children being born, in the Astral Plane extend to the outplanes, outlands, and sigil?" The answer is nope

People are born, live, and die much like on the inner and material planes

I think the only thing that might affect the above statement would be planes with weird time rules, like the Feywild

[iron saffron]

Each plane (and possibly their layers) in the Inner and Outer Planes have their own laws of nature that affects things like time and gravity. The question needs to be asked of each plane of existence (and their layers).

[sharp owl]

Good point, I don't think Limbo would be a great place to raise a kid

[magic jackal]

I mean, tell that to the Githzerai

[sharp owl]

Good point

Touche

[slate spoke]

So generally, in Planescape, time passes normally

[magic jackal]

Yes.

[slate spoke]

Oh look, we answered a question about planescape

[iron saffron]

In general, the environments (not even thinking of the inhabitants) of the Inner and Outer Planes are very hostile to mortals.

[spark haven]

sure, you asked a real question that time

[slate spoke]

Without specifying a specific location

[unkempt merlin]

It passes as normally as whatever plane one is on, because planescape isn't a specific place, it's more a setting concept

[iron saffron]

Again, each plane (and possibly their layers) in the Inner and Outer Planes have their own laws of nature that affects things like time and gravity. The question needs to be asked of each plane of existence (and their layers).

[sharp owl]

@slate spoke Drop the bad attitude, people are just trying to engage with your question by asking clarifying questions

Everyone is expected to be civil

[magic jackal]

I answered generally about Planescape the last time too, not my fault you pointed to something demonstrably not part of Planescape as a specific counterexample to a general rule (which isn't how general rules work, exceptions exist)

[iron saffron]

Planescape the campaign setting encompasses the multiverse.

[unkempt merlin]

It's not like how the forgotten realms is a setting and place, it's a concept that applies to many places

[iron saffron]

Asking a vague question about the multiverse isn't going to get you a specific answer.

[slate spoke]

Davyd, you started this conversation by telling me that Planescape is not a place. I found that unhelpful.

[iron saffron]

Q: "How does birth work in the multiverse?"
A: "Yes."

[magic jackal]

You essentially asked "How does birth work in the multiverse?" Same as everywhere else (with exceptions) is a perfectly reasonable answer, not sure what you expected.

[spark haven]

not even essentially, literally

[unkempt merlin]

He started it by asking for clarification with a reminder it wasn't a singular place

[spark haven]

no further details provided

[magic jackal]

It was a helpful response because it seemed based on your question you had a misunderstanding of what Planescape was and he was clarifying.

[unkempt merlin]

Yea

[magic jackal]

We don't actually have the ability to innately cast detect thoughts either.

[sharp owl]

Let's not dogpile, okay?

[magic jackal]

Fair enough

[sharp owl]

Being civil applies to everyone

[unkempt merlin]

Need more tadpoles in our brains

[slate spoke]

Hopefully you can understand my frustration that it takes ten real world minutes to comes to the simple conclusion that Planescape is a setting, when we could have just started there

[unkempt merlin]

As already said, planescape is a setting, but it's not a specific place.

[magic jackal]

This is what Davyd said.

He never said it wasn't a setting.

[slate spoke]

I'm stepping away. Thank you all

[timber fable]

I thought it was a place :/

Now I know

[grim siren]

Planescape is a title.

Sigil and the Great Wheel are the places.

The Forgotten Realms is a title.

Faerun is the place.

[vivid beacon]

Hey, does anyone know of an in lore way for somebody to amplify a spell? In BG3 the Emerald Grove has like 10 people preforming a ritual spell to preform a giant spell. Could you do this with a transmutation spell? Are there certain types of crystals that’s could amplify the effects of a spell?

[grim siren]

I do believe that type of spell casting is unsupported mechanically but in at least the realms magical rituals that require dozens of casters focusing their weave is a known thing.

[jagged apex]

pretty much the same as everwhere else in the multiverse, like unless you mean something else, cuz nothing i have ever heard suggests in a multiversal scale/connecting setting does that change

[vivid beacon]

So transmutation spells normally can’t be preformed as ritual spells?

[jagged apex]

yes, look to high magic, the practice often was amplifying the spells being cast by having great and greater costs, sometimes even casters dying as part of the spell's casting

the long and short of it is basically the more drawbacks you work into the spell or the more casters the stronger certain spells can be, often things like big ritual spells are good candidates for this to my knowledge, looking at dnd's published history of such examples, even those used by the elves, if i am not mistaken is part of the process that made many mythals

[jagged apex]

depends on the spell, if it has the ritual tag it can, if not, no

[unkempt merlin]

School of magic doesn't change the ability of being able to be a ritual or not

[jagged apex]

yeah

[unkempt merlin]

Ritualized magic is a thing in plenty of settings and often doesn't follow the 5e rules for casting. Even in 5e there is a bunch of magic that doesn't follow the general casting rules. NPC magic essentially.

[jagged apex]

is not really a mechanically represented thing, but very much is a thing in the lore

the kind you see in the examples like bg3 are either obscure spells that don't have mechanics to them or are new original spells, either way is not something that translates super hard into mechanics

basically you follow what info is available and your dm's best judgement of the logical steps that the spell would need

[vivid beacon]

So I’ll give you a little bit more context. I’m running my first session. I want the villain to attempt to transmute the inner and outer core of the planet into osmium lol it’s way more dense than iron. I’m still working on if he is working for Shar or wants revenge on Selune for some reason. But basically the gravitational pull would be so strong that it would pull the moon into the planet lol

[jagged apex]

conceptually that makes no real sense, at least far as i can tell based on what i know of the deities

plus you definitely would need to be near the core if anything for that sort of thing to work

regardless of other details

[vivid beacon]

Mmm damn, for what I read, what Selune is the goddess of the moon and light. Shar is the goddess of darkness. They are constantly at war with each other

In bg3 Gale had a relationship with a diety and is just super sad about it. I thought the villain could have had a relationship with Selune and is finding a way to seek revenge

[jagged apex]

yeah but does not mean they'd wanna just destroy the moon, that would be the equivilent effectively of just destroying an object with selune's name associated with it

[vivid beacon]

Hmmmm I see

So I guess the realm that Selune lives in has no connection to the actual moon then

[jagged apex]

also far as i know Selune is not really know to engage in such things, where as is a bit more reasonable with mystra cuz the morst recent incarnation was previously mortal

[jagged apex]

nothing beyond a thematic thing at least

[vivid beacon]

Hmmm I see, I would like to have an apocalyptic type event without the reason just being “hey, everyone sucks. I want to destroy the world”

[jagged apex]

i'd suggest looking to princes of the apocalypse, that is basically a 5e adventure that has the overarching antagonists each trying to bring about an apocalyptic end in some way

definitely would be a good source of insperation or to use as a sort of skeleton

plus we have since gotten more stuff on the evil elemental cults including some giants in bigby's

[vivid beacon]

I’ll check it out! No matter what I’d like to run with the transmutation thing. I’m basically just looking for a “why” and “how” at this point

[jagged apex]

well all i know is what you described makes no sense, i am not even sure what osmium is, or if toril's core is even iron

[vivid beacon]

I would like to keep it lore and mechanically friendly and accurate as I can. I’ll home brew some stuff if I have to though

Idk what the core is made of either. But Osmium is a real world metal. It’s the densest that we know of

Think of it like a pound of steel vs a pound of feathers scenario

[jagged apex]

well as i recall gravity on toril is different from that on earth, so that likely would put wholes in your plan

[vivid beacon]

Like, you mean the laws of gravity are different?

[jagged apex]

well the amount of force of gravity one experiances on those worlds are different from one another

[magic jackal]

You can find the actual size of the planet Toril on the FR Wiki

Size is relatively similar to Earth

[jagged apex]

and potentially more info on the linked spelljammer wiki, but on either to my knowledge info on like the core and such are not provided

[magic jackal]

Humans have arrived on Toril from Earth and it didn't make any specific note of any difficulties they experienced with Gravity or Atmosphere I don't think

[iron saffron]

2E Spelljammer had details on planet types

[jagged apex]

yeah but from what i found nothing regarding it's core

[magic jackal]

I think we can probably safely assume it's similar in composition to Earth?

[jagged apex]

i only was pointing out it was different, not sure how different just that it is not one to one

[magic jackal]

Yeah I'm not arguing it's identical just suggesting it's relatively comparable to Earth in some key ways

[iron saffron]

It's safe to say that Toril (and Abeir) and Oerth are very similar to Earth.

[jagged apex]

yeah but we know stuff like gravity in space works different from our own world, so that and knowing the gravity is different, regardless of what the core is made out of, sounds unlikely that transmuting the core of the planet, if you could even get near it, would cause the moon to crash into it

[vivid beacon]

Yeah, I’m just kind of assuming it’s pretty similar to earth. I feel like that won’t be too important for this story

[jagged apex]

plus the moon had already previously crashed into the planet in the dawn war

[vivid beacon]

It would though, if you increase the mass of the planet, its gravitational pull increases, if the gravitational pull increases, it pulls whatever is close to it even harder

[jagged apex]

honestly the person trying to transmute the core would die before they even got the chance

cuz not only the adventurers and other creatures of the planet, but also the underdark and how it has even depths the natives will not even go out of fear for their own lives and some parts that supposidly lead to portals to the abyss, not to mention the crossings into the feydark, elemental plane of earth, ect...

honestly, your idea would probably be more set up for a homebrew campaign where you have more control of those details like gods, motives, how the planet functions, ect...

like i am not saying don't bother, just that using the forgotten realms the plan would make 0 sense as far as i can tell, assuming it would even work

i think AJ Pickett might have an old lore video about the details you may be looking for regarding toril as i recall the info on the gravity being different to that of earth in our own world at least from one of his lore vids

but largely real world science does not consistently translate into being true in dnd, this is easily seen in the way spelljammer and wildspace as a whole functions, regardless of the edition you are using

[iron saffron]

Don't try to explain things with science when D&D has stellar dragons miles long.

[jagged apex]

yeah, yet another excellent point

[iron saffron]

Plus gods, demons, devils, and elementals.

[jagged apex]

not to mention stellar dragon's inplace of the typical breath weapon, from what i recall basically have what is effectively a black hole in their mouths

science, at least in our own world, is if anything a theory is anything in dnd rather than hard facts

or like the tip of the iceberg

like in dnd magic is a core part of the make up of reality, just as much as things like time, space, or gravity

and earth in dnd is basically just one massive dead magic zone

[jagged apex]

honestly, your transmutation plot might work better if moved to the moon and they were attempting to transmute enough of the moon into heavier materials to crash it into the planet

remember, despite it being hidden by an ilusion the moon of toril is canonically habitable

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Selûne_(moon)

or even attempt to enlarge the moon to achieve a similar end, as in 5e at least, enlarge/reduce is classified as a transmutation spell, so presumably one could make a more potent and larger scaled version of the spell if they put in the work as a wizard

[vivid beacon]

Sorry I’m at work. But yeah, I’ve been thinking about just doing a mixed homebrew. I don’t really want to create a whole new world when there’s already a cool one made. At the same time I don’t mind changing some things if need be

[vivid beacon]

That’s actually part of the fun of it for me and I think it’ll be fun specially for a few members of the party. Grounding these crazy ideas in fantasy in reality is really cool imo. I appreciate everyone’s feedback!

[sharp owl]

#dm-world-building would be a more suitable channel for this discussion

[vivid beacon]

Oh sorry about that! I’ll get out of you guys hair! I appreciate all of the help!

[hidden current]

lore wise is the lich larloch still alive, i know he was defeated when trying to take mystra's place as magic god but it doesnt say if he was destroyed or not so i was curious?

[jagged apex]

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Larloch
seems that there is no mention of his final death/destruction, so presumably he still is around and unalive, though was not used in a way that corrosponded with a statblock since 3e, given someone under his control in a 5e AL adventure tried to use some parts of the soulmonger to try to escape

but that is the last known part of his published history at least according to what is cited on the forgotten realms wiki

[hidden current]

ok then he is probably still around if another lich tried to get away from him in 5e

[jagged apex]

indeed, so is at the very least implied he is still around

[calm crest]

Sounds like the kind of thing one might end up as a vestige for. He’s also the kind of entity that would fake destruction to further his goals.

[jagged apex]

not really cuz vestiges are more often associated with gods