dnd-lore

[obsidian gate]

But again, alignment means different things to everyone

[vital heron]

I guess lawful in the sense of Judge Dredd

[obsidian gate]

My issue is that this tenet kinda goes against following any law or code. It encourages you to break those if necessary to get your sworn enemies

Dread would never break the law, though he is rarely tempted.

[forest sundial]

well that's what I mean though. does lawful mean you obey the written down laws of the land, or does it mean you follow your sworn oath no matter what

[vital heron]

True, but the law he follows allows him broad discretion. I can see a lawful OoV thinking the same way, particularly feeling that their god's law is higher than mundane law. I'm thinking like the Justicar in Mass Effect 2 too

[obsidian gate]

I mean every paladin has to follow their oath. with that logic, all Paladins would be lawful

[forest sundial]

except maybe oathbreakers, but yes I would say all paladins should be either lawful or maybe neutral, but they can be good/neutral/evil. So, oath of ancients or watchers might be somewhere in between lawful good and true neutral. Oath of devition or redemption almost certainly lawful good or neutral good. But oath of vengeance or conquest almost certainly lawful evil, or at best lawful neutral, because those are the war crime oaths

[obsidian gate]

This circles around to my point. What if the paladin has to break another law of their god to catch their enemies?

Unless the paladin follows a set of rules that already at base say „do whatever is necessary „ there always gonna because situation where the paladin will be forced to chose between their rules and their targets.

[vital heron]

Yeah if their oath is such that their highest tenet is to above all else punish the wicked, then they have a clear mandate.

[obsidian gate]

And like, I disagree that having an oath means you lean lawful by default. Lawful and chaotic are broader than that in my view

[modest badger]

I was writing an essay on Greyhawk's fading magic, but looks like we've move on >.>

[forest sundial]

but oath of vengeance is basically just

• Fight the greater evil: if there are multiple demons, you have to 1v1 the biggest one
• No mercy for the wicked: if there are any demons at all, you have to smite them
• By any means necessary: war crimes are allowed, as long as you do them against demons
• Restitution: help people that were attacked by demons

This pretty much means you can ignore the Forgotten Realms version of the Geneva convention, but as long as you follow these rules you could consider yourself lawful. Definitely evil though depending how many war crimes you did.

Also oath of conquest:

• Douse the flame of hope
• Rule with an iron fist
• Strength above all

That's just RPing as Darth Vader, who is like the poster child of lawful evil

oath of conquest even gets mustard gas cloudkill at 17th level

[tame locust]

Oh, please, cary on.

[modest badger]

The ‘drawing on other planes for magic’ idea is seemingly supported by Boccob, big god of magic, having the main ability to ‘draw on any plane and time for positive and negative energy’. Although this would then raise the question 'Why is magic fading on Oerth then?' If the method is drawing on other planes for energy, surely that source shouldn't dry up.

It seems gygax envisions magic as well being a quality of a world/plane as well. Oerth is noted to be highly magical compared to other worlds, like mentioned in Polyhedron #21, 1983, when talking about an alternate world used for another game setting (Heroes Challenges):

"... [the] action takes place on Yarth, a place somewhat similar to Oerth, the setting of Greyhawk, et al. It has fewer magical properties than Oerth but more than Earth. It is not impossible that additional works will be contracted for in months to come, action being set on Yarth or perhaps another alternate world, Aerth. On Earth, magic is virtually non-existent. On Uerth, dweomers are weak, chancy things. Yarth has a sprinkling of things magical, and Oerth is pure magic."

So, Magic is perhaps also an ambient quality of a world, not just drawing on other planes, but an energy that exists within that plane as well.

World of Greyhawk has this:

"The Savant-Sage is known to have lived in the city of Greyhawk during Oerth's Epoch of Magic. Evidence suggests that this was not the first age in Oerth history, but nothing exists to indicate how many ages preceded it, or intervened between it and the present [20th century]."
"During Smedger's time, magic was not a lost art, but, apparently, a fading one."
'The Sage' is the in universe authour of World of Greyhawk and Smedger is the in Universe editor of the Glossography for the box set. in universe dates are 'The Sage' completed WOG 576 and Smedger published the glossography 998. So in 400 years, magic begins to fade and by the 20th century it’s gone.

Although if you treat Greyhawk 2000 as canon (It was a modern greyhawk setting that appeared in Dragon #277 and Dungeon #83), Magic is alive again in the 21st century along with technology.

Dragon 338 mentions:

[Boccob] sees the past, all the way hack to the creation of the world, and even the future when magic itself has succumbed to a slow wasting end.
...
He believes that Tharizdun (Complete Divine, page 123), an evil god of entropy imprisoned ages ago by the concerted efforts of all the gods, is somehow responsible despite his confinement.
...
He constantly seeks to learn more of planar structures, the logic of magic, long-lost lore, and the underpinnings of magic's role in the multi verse, hoping to find another clue to delaying the eventual decline of magic on Oerth
So, not even the God who can see through all time and is a god of magic knows why magic is fading in Greyhawk. But blaming it on the god of Entropy who also became Greyhawks Big Bad in the novels (and even result in Oerth Dying in the Gord Novels, but that was also just Gygax being made that he lost the rights to his own game and setting, so blew up Earth and Stuck to Aerth and Yarth.)

[tame locust]

Perhaps connecting to the other plane requires varying levels of effort

[modest badger]

I know some fans have suggested 'Conjunction of spheres' idea- that it grows harder or easier to draw on other planes in waves.

In universe they also have a few theories, again from Dragon #338:
One 'holy book' of Boccob's followers gives this suggestion:

The Rare Water
Although some members of the faith consider this book a heresy and its adherents misguided fools, it is gaining strength among lawful followers of Boccob. The book postulates that magic is a finite resource and every item created or spell cast expends a part of it using selected quotes from The Uncaring's Writ to back up its assertions in a roundabout fashion.

But this seems contradicted by Boccob's own goals:

Boccob has a personal interest in the creation of new magic, whether items, spells, or alchemical formulas. Rather than depleting magic, each act of magical creativity adds one more drop of fuel to the lamp that is Oerth's magic, giving it a moment's more time before it is snuffed out.

There is also a myth that there is a 'Lost Spell' that can fix magic, but will be found too late, but it's more a parable for wizards to not get lazy and rely on furture generations to solve issues that exist now.

So one implication might also be that as people swap over to technological advancements and stop using/creating magic, magic fades.

Star Cairns, a 2e Greyhawk Module, also introduced shifting leylines:

As the cairn is no longer above the Oerthly ley-line, the magical enhancement that made this place so valuable is no longer in effect; the two lines have altered a bit over time and no longer compliment each other.
The leylines also shift in nature, boosting different schools of magic over time.

I know some fans have also gone with the Tharizdun theory, because a god of Entropy sucking up all magic, and going through cycles of 'waking up' and being imprisoned does sound pretty cool.

But it seems like Greyhawk Magic is:

• Likely empowered by drawing on other planes
• Is also a quality of the world itself and can fade (and potentially return or potentially fizzle out forever)
• Can be concentrated and affected in areas of strong magic like ley lines
• Is definitely fading in Greyhawk, potentially due to lack of magical creativity, or due to a cranky god of Entropy.

[molten osprey]

That's why Boccob doesn't allow gunpowder to work, and only Paladins of Murlynd (sub sect of Heironious) can make and use it

(because before Kaye died his character went to Boothill between early D&D adventures)

[molten osprey]

They should be, and it should be a gated class. it was always something special to be able to roll a paladin before. That said, Lawful without temperance is a trap. and leads to cruelty and evil. Consider the actions of the Pale after 550 and through 580 or so. Primary worshipers of Pholtus, an unbending LG(LN) god of light and order. At the end of my previous long term campaign Ivid and Iuz were destroyed, so I gave Pholtus Iuz's Cruelty portfolio and stripped him of his good domain. It's not cannon, but if you read the background material, he was already heading there

[modest badger]

I like the theory that gunpowder is banned because Boccob is trying to discourage technology replacing magic, while Murlynd is being king of the Artificers and encouraging magic artificery.

Gunpowder does seem usable by the time of Greyhawk 2000, but it also seems like they prefer using more magical means to power weapons. "the use of gunpowder is considered antiquated, and gunpowder weapons are now manufactured only by the dwarves of House Broadhammer" and they use the utterly Ridiculous Dimensional Acceletor tech. Which is such a fun idea.

"The projectile has lost nearly all of its mass but is now traveling at speeds close to 15,000 miles per second and is burning at a temperature of 3100°F. The projectile, now a bit of molten titanium the size of a grain of sand, gets from the end of the barrel to its target so fast it doesn’t make any sound, even as it rapidly cools and resolidifies."
It deals like.. 1d12 damage.

[molten osprey]

I think that was the idea with Greyhawk's fading magic. Technology and Magic are incapatible, you can't have both, and greyhawk tech had been stagnant for millennia, if it starts moving forward the magic dies, who needs Sending when you can pick up a telephone.

[calm crest]

It does make sense that the home of Vecna would have the most Vancian magic. Although the whole world leaving an epoch of magic is also pretty Tolkien, so it might just be the general Appendix N inspiration. The idea of magic and technology being opposed is present in a lot of the Old School material, like the BECMI module Where Chaos Reigns.

[unique token]

How many kind of ...mancy does DND Lore have?

(i.e pyromancy cryomancy whatmancy)

What's the most powerful mancy ever? Dunamancy?

[iron saffron]

Can you be more specific to the campaign setting?

[calm crest]

The suffix “-mancy” originally refers to a particular manner of divination, but the connotations of it in association with necromancy have caused it to be understood as related to magic more generally. I’m assuming you’re asking generally about what named fields of magic there are?

[iron saffron]

Graviturgy and chronurgy are Critical Role specific magic traditions. They're not schools of magic (abjuration, conjuration, divination, enchantment, evocation, illusion, necromancy, and transmutation), which are present in all D&D settings.

If you're talking about prestige/sub-classes that's more of a game mechanic than lore.

[calm crest]

All of the various magical specialties offer a range of power. One could argue that in Forgotten Realms, the Arcanist Fields of Inventive, Mentalism, and Variation are the most powerful, but that’s only because they are so old that the only level 10+ spells were scribed as those Fields.

[calm crest]

Without knowing setting or edition, if you’re specifically asking about types of magic that commonly use the “-mancy” ending, I will note that a good number of mid-level adventuring staples would fall under pyromancy, and necromancy had a lot of support for specialized users with variant options (kits, prestige classes, that sort of thing) depending on edition.

There are also a lot of supernatural variants of fire out there in D&D: divine fire, blightfire, blazefire, blackflame, hellfire, etc.

You don’t see nearly that much variation in other magical elemental substances, unless you consider elemental earth to broadly include all metals.

[magic jackal]

You can probably stratify magic variations in an almost unlimited number of categories by arbitrary distinctions, and you can probably also call each a different form of '-mancy'

like necromancy, cryomancy, chronomancy, pyromancy, geomancy, hydromancy, the list goes on

I'm unsure if they're all established within canon, but there's no reason they wouldn't be because it's just putting together linguistic components that describe an arbitrary category of spells, and since necromancy is already established in most settings, it stands to reason that other kinds of -mancy would also be commonly used descriptive terms.

[calm crest]

Even if one is asking about official groupings of spells, there are dozens of schools, spheres, provinces, paths, and fields, all from various editions and with their own strengths and weaknesses.

[molten osprey]

chronomancy and a liberal dm

if it's prestige classes, it's about who you're fighting, other mu: 3.0 Incantrix, pet type-mebbe True Necromancer, but it's a long build, etc

[surreal lark]

What is the canonical true purpose of the abyss?

[iron saffron]

What do you mean "true purpose"?

It's like asking what's the true purpose of our universe. It just exists.

[surreal lark]

Well I was reading a lot of lore on Fandom, and one of the lines was that Jubilex, the demon lord of slimes, was one of the few canonical beings to know the Abyss’s purpose

[iron saffron]

The Abyss fills the niche of being the CE plane in the Great Wheel.

[surreal lark]

CE?

[iron saffron]

Chaotic Evil

[surreal lark]

Oh yeah.

Still not the answer I was looking for tho.

[iron saffron]

There may not be an answer.

The Abyss was created from the Shard of Ultimate Evil (it's still drilling into the Abyss, creating more layers).

Asmodeus wants the Shard (he has part of it in his Ruby Rod) and that kinda started the Blood War between the devils and demons.

[surreal lark]

Ooooooooooo

Very cool

I was trying to learn as much as I could out of game for my character. We are in an Out of the Abyss campaign

[iron saffron]

Perhaps don't meta?

[surreal lark]

You make an excellent point

Thankfully my dm said it was ok

especially since my character has a plus 5 and advantage to all roles concerning fiends

[elfin hornet]

I find it cute at one of the quirks at a grey render can have is “love to snuggle”

[molten osprey]

you should have a sit down with your DM and see what he thinks your character BELIEVES they know. 1. because he might be using a different cosmology or 2. because what your character has learned through his life may not be the truth. It's more fun to roleplay a knowit all who only thinks he knows it all

[iron saffron]

This is #character-discussion stuff...

[shell aspen]

Anyone here know the lore for the Goliath tribes? The most I can find is the names… I know the Thunukalathi are from Wyrmdoom Crag and they’re competitive rivals with the Akannathi clan, but that’s about it….

[iron saffron]

Which setting?

[shell aspen]

Wdym? Sorry I don’t quite understand, im very new 😭

Ohh if you mean edition, dnd5e

[iron saffron]

No, campaign setting (aka world) such as Forgotten Realms or Exandria (Critical Role). Each campaign setting has its own lore.

[shell aspen]

OH im sorry, like i said im a bit new

it’s a custom campaign made by the DM, so I’m not entirely sure… i’m mostly asking for the backstory of my character to see which tribal name would suit her most.

oh wait nvm i stand corrected

[iron saffron]

If it's custom world of your DM's then you should ask them / work with them.

[shell aspen]

this character is for Curse of Strahd so Ravenloft

[iron saffron]

Ask your DM. I can't say any more without giving away spoilers.

[shell aspen]

that’s fair, i appreciate the help though

[lone dew]

Hey do you guys have any tips on delivering lord ? I got all those dope stories about demon lords but really can’t think of a natural way my PCS would know about these

Lore*

[spark haven]

In small doses, and mostly when asked

[lone dew]

Ho so you mean if they ask and roll for it ?

[spark haven]

That's the thing about DnD. It is in part a creative outlet for the DM, yes, but it's not storytime or workshop-my-novel time. It is a collaborative storytelling game

So it's really cool that Glubbernox the Unwashable turned Swixbung of the Infinite Indigestion inside out and used his body as a fortress, but unless that has some bearing on a PC's backstory, interests, or goals, it is just a neat story that doesn't have anything to do with the one going on at the table.

If it does have bearing on their story or goals, they'll ask about it. PCs are devilishly, infuriatingly curious and clever

[lone dew]

I see , what you mean , those lords are closely linked to my PCs backstories , I’m just wondering how I should deliver more knowledge about their enemies or even patrons

[spark haven]

And you'll have the answers prepared.

Don't forget, your PCs outnumber you

[lone dew]

I mean supposedly they should but I ´ma not sure that their characters are supposed to know this by the get go if you see what I mean

[spark haven]

There's 3-6 brains all focused on unravelling what you put in front of them

My general rule is less is more

To put it bluntly, if the players care, they'll ask

if/when

I mean no judgement against enjoying creative writing and worldbuilding. Keep that up no matter what, so long as you're enjoying it. Buuuuuuut when you're at the table, you've probably worked very very hard to schedule that block of time, and you probably have really specific goals for how to enjoy it

If those goals include asking lore questions, it will happen

If not, then your player has other goals for making the session fun, and that's okay mostly

[lone dew]

Should also be true but my players a beginners and so I’m I , maybe I should tell them more epressivelivy they can ask me lore related questions

I know that it interest them because they give me post session feedback

[spark haven]

communication is important

telling your players what they're allowed to do

don't hint

don't be coy

[lone dew]

And as I said some of the lore is supposedly not well known so in theory their pcs shouldn’t just know about it by default

[spark haven]

yeah you gotta pick a side of the fence

you're running yourself in a loop

[lone dew]

I see what you mean

[spark haven]

either is okay

if this information relates to the PCs, it's not insane to let them know bits and pieces

it's also fine to let them just be regular dumb dumbs

and unfold things over time, or at their specific request

[lone dew]

Okay thanks a lot for this this surely helped me !

[iron saffron]

This should have been in the #dm-discussion channel. This channel is to discuss about official D&D lore.

[zenith dust]

your best bet for 5e lore about the demon lords is going to be the monster manual, and I can't recall but I think Descent into Avernus is mostly concerned with Devils, rather than Demons, though the two sets are often in conflict and there might be more info there too

[vital heron]

The demon lords are mostly across mordenkainens tome of foes and monsters of the multiverse

I think tome of foes has more on the lore

[zenith dust]

nice

thanks for the assist - I'm a little rusty with lower planes stuff

older editions have lore as well, though I'm not sure how much has carried over

[white ravine]

90% of the time, having something show up and tying a big 'kick me' sign to it is an easy way to get players to learn about it. Piles of toxic slime and mutation inducing gasses can act as roadblocks that players need deeper research for, but this is all for #dm-discussion

[white ravine]

Its not much that hasnt been stated, and anything left unsaid is unchanged so theyre relatively the same aside from mechanical differences

I believe demogorgon's tail barbs used to drain levels but now drains max HP for example. Same life rot, different pain sticks.

[iron saffron]

The FR wiki is the one of the first sites to check out as it lists the sources (official books) of the lore.

Demogorgon in 3.5E had different statblocks (the one in the Book of Vile Darkness was CR 30 while the one in Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss was a CR 23).

[steep spoke]

Does anyone have a link to d&d beyond campaign

My character is a dragonborn barbarian and I would like to start playing some d&d

[iron saffron]

This isn't the channel to ask.

Taps on channel's sign:

For discussion of the lore of the various official D&D settings. Wherever possible, please indicate which setting you're talking about, eg [Forgotten Realms]/[FR], [Eberron], [Dragonlance], etc

[zenith dust]

hey Frostbone, you can check out #find-a-game for some links & instructions on how to use the tools on the server here to find a game or players 🙂

[manic minnow]

So do the Beholder regional effects happen somewhere in Waterdeep? Like is there canonically a 2 mile area where at night random warps in reality happen, people feel like they're being watched and things randomly get covered in slime?

[slender shell]

best typo

[manic minnow]

Nuh uh

[slender shell]

should have left it...could have become a thing haha

[white ravine]

1 mile area, but both effects most definitely could breach the surface. However since they're further out from the beholder it's safe to say it doesn't happen to the city as often.

[manic minnow]

1 mile area from the beholder

Ergo the classic dnd phrase

It's A Radius (TM)

[white ravine]

Mhm.

So as it moves around it would fluctuate how much it affects the surface

[manic minnow]

Would be fun to describe as players go around Waterdeep

[vital heron]

Attempts to plot DotMM on the map of waterdeep put Xanathar's lair somewhere under Fish Street in the Dock Ward.

[manic minnow]

Well I assume they get it from where you get to him in Waterdeep Dragonheist

[vital heron]

WDH isn't specific about where his lair is, but it's supposedly underneath Skullport, and DotMM has maps for that. Some people have overlaid the maps with some assumptions of scale, and Skullport's Skull Island ends up under Fish Street.

[calm crest]

It does seem fitting for the Xanathar to stick with the fish theme.

[white ravine]

Could make it an overly elaborate borderline-psychotic conspiracy on Xanathar's end to try and get it renamed to something like Sylgar Avenue.

[neon crow]

Hey all. I’m curious… I’ve only been playing since the release of 5e, and haven’t read any Forgotten Realms content other than D&D 5e books… has there been any information released about Neverwinter’s justice system, criminal code, etc.? They had information about Waterdeep in W:DH, but I haven’t seen anything about Neverwinter.

[iron saffron]

The temple of Tyr is called the Hall of Justice. The clergy of Tyr are the judges in the city-state.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Hall_of_Justice

[graceful jolt]

Can you long rest in the Astral Plane? Can you sleep and naturally heal?

[iron saffron]

Time doesn't pass in the Astral Plane.

[magic jackal]

Which doesn't answer the question

[iron saffron]

It's a gameplay mechanic question, no?

[magic jackal]

I think it's a bit of both?

Time is said not to pass, but things can stll move ergo it's not exactly fully suspended

[iron saffron]

The Astral Plane is meant to be a transition plane between the Material and Outer Planes.

I personally loathed WotC using the Astral Sea for 5E Spelljammer, when Spelljammer was meant to be between worlds in the Material Plane.

[magic jackal]

That being said some things do live there

I don't think anything mentions them having to go somewhere else to recover normally from wounds and then jump back into the astral plane

[iron saffron]

Usually mortals enter the Astral Plane as astral projections rather than as their true bodies. Hence why the Silver Swords were very deadly.

[magic jackal]

Save for the native creatures that actually live there

Githyanki, for example

Githyanki visit the material plane to allow their children to grow to maturity, although if time were truly suspended for all organic functions it wouldn't be possible for children to be conceived in the astral plane in the first place.

[iron saffron]

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Astral_Plane#Geography

Time in the Astral flowed at the same rate on a Prime Material plane but the effects of time were slowed almost to a stop―a thousand years in the Astral plane felt like only a day to the traveler. Creatures did not go hungry or age while in the Astral plane. For that reason, its mortal inhabitants needed to return to the Material Plane in order to have children or to reach adulthood

[magic jackal]

Creatures on the Astral Plane don’t age or suffer from hunger or thirst. For this reason, humanoids that live on the Astral Plane (such as the githyanki) establish outposts on other planes, often the Material Plane, so their children can grow to maturity.
It doesn't say anything about recovering from injury.

[iron saffron]

Time is slower so natural healing would take longer I would assume.

[magic jackal]

That would be the natural assumption but it seems like the astral plane is really selective about the effects of time it suspends and those it doesn't

[iron saffron]

DM's call then.

[calm crest]

Logically, creatures wouldn’t grow tired or recover from physical injury, except on a geological scale (a few centuries for an eight-hour rest). Since magic and psionics largely function normally on the astral plane and various magic- and psionic-using inhabitants dwell there, magic and mental abilities would presumably be recuperated at an ordinary rate. I think the question for whether healing occurs is whether or not the healing is hit-points-as-morale/luck or hit-points-as-wounds. A cut might take take a decade to clot, but I don’t see why someone couldn’t recover their will to fight in a few hours.

You’d definitely need magic healing or a trip to another plane to recover from a cold or something, unless you’ve got a few elven generations of free time.

[magic jackal]

You'd think that'd be the logic, but there's logical incongruities that don't make sense if you assume all organisms' biological clocks are paused or operate at even a 1000:1 ratio

Which is what leads me to believe it is not, as stated, time is paused or slowed to a 1000:1 rate, but instead only specific things are. Which makes some sense if you consider the astral plane as the plane of thought.

[magic jackal]

How would you even catch a cold?

A cold functions on working biological mechanisms of your own body, but that can't happen if time is stopped

Creatures don't become hungry, but what happens if they eat food, does it just end up being stored as paste in your stomach for eternity?

Since it can't be dissolved if time doesn't function, and biological processes don't occur

how does one produce energy for their limbs to move? if they don't need to eat, but somehow can move, is it because it's the plane of thought? that kinda proves my point, that time is not stopped for every process, only certain ones.

[calm crest]

Granted, we'd also get the issue of whether or not your body is capable of undergoing the chemical processes needed to send signals through the nervous system.

[graceful jolt]

Yes but also Its kind of unclear, and it has much more implications on lore than gameplay

[magic jackal]

Why does an injury even matter if time is stopped? If you get cut, but your biological processes are halted, and there's no gravity, do you bleed?

And does bleeding matter? Blood is there to distribute energy from your metabolic processes throughout your body

But you don't need to eat, so those metabolic processes are not creating energy for your body, so is the blood essential to distribute energy throughout the body?

Starting to see my point about the incongruities yet? I've only really scratched the surface of why it makes no sense as written, and as such it requires a specific reading that focuses on one detail and ignores the rest to assume that healing your wounds would be stopped.

[graceful jolt]

Im going to be honest with you here, the answer is because magic
Remember, its all your head, literally this time! This is the plane of the mind

[magic jackal]

Yes, because magic

that's entirely my point.

so you probably do heal at a normal pace, because magic.

because nothing explicitly states you don't heal at a normal pace

[graceful jolt]

I think we could strike a compromise that long resting in the Astral IS and FEELS so weird(since time doesnt move, and you dont get more physically tired than you were when you entered)
So, in order to Long Rest, you'd need to literally perform mental gymnastics in order to convince your body that everything is fine and you are resting
Would that sound logical?

[magic jackal]

Eh, I mean sure?

Up to the DM

[graceful jolt]

Im the DM in question, im just trying to work my way into seeing how would this work

[magic jackal]

Well I think we can safely migrate this to #dm-discussion perhaps?

[graceful jolt]

There seems kinda busy, and I dont want to budge their conversation
But I dont wish to go off the topic of the channel here so I actually have some discussions regarding lore that relates to this

If time doesnt pass the astral, and you can or cannot or maybe able to rest in the astral, How does the githyanki society work? Does it mean that there are githyanki that are there since the begging?

[iron saffron]

The githyanki aren't native to the Astral Plane.

[magic jackal]

I think they mean since the beginning of the Githyanki presence in the Astral Plane

not literally since the beginning of the Astral Plane lol

[quartz lagoon]

question, what part of the forgotten realms would be the equivalent of northern europe or asia for the purposes of pegging an in world location to the real world slavic accent?

[iron saffron]

The northern part of Faerun is essentially Europe.
The continent of Kara-tur is essentially East Asia

[quartz lagoon]

so im guessing places like icewind dale and such?

[iron saffron]

Narfell and Rashemen probably
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Narfell
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Rashemen

[quartz lagoon]

so places around the great glacier then?

[iron saffron]

This isn't official but people's take on what the various Faerun places are probably closest to real world places:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Forgotten_Realms/comments/3883xb/real_world_equivalents_to_forgotten_realm/

[quartz lagoon]

we should really get stories and adventures farther east of the swordcoast

[iron saffron]

Sure, there are plenty of those from older editions or Candlekeep Mysteries.

[white chasm]

im not 100% sure but i belive they are reborn as adults

mostly

👍

[iron saffron]

Devas are celestial spirits. They don't have a child phase (baby to adolescent), they are created from their home plane of origin as beings that look like human adults. That's it.

[pale stump]

more like the sword coast north itself

cormyr is pretty european as well

[oblique urchin]

Is there a monster similar to a purple worm that's native to the abyss?

[iron saffron]

Fiendish purple worm?

[calm crest]

Probably also some undead purple worms in the Abyss, too. Wouldn’t put it past Orcus to have one of those.

[white ravine]

Native to the Abyss? Can't say so. However, a purple worm in the abyss is definitely gonna turn into something horrid.

[iron saffron]

3.5E had templates for fiendish versions of basically anything.

[white ravine]

I can imagine a purple worm mutated by Yeenoghu to have a lamprey like tube-mouth instead of the normal jaws of the thing. Maybe give it legs and turn it into a vile centipede type abomination too.

[calm crest]

And with infinite layers of the Abyss, there are infinite things in it. There’s probably layer that’s just a sea of purple worms.

Apparently 4e had something just called an abyssal wurm that could fit the bill.

Golothoma are huge wormlike demons.

[white ravine]

Oh! They are!

[silent atlas]

are greyhawk and fearun in the same world?

[iron saffron]

No.
The campaign setting Greyhawk (named after Castle Greyhawk and city of Greyhawk) is on the planet Oerth.
Faerun is one continent on the planet of Toril.
Both planets are in two different stellar systems (aka Crystal Spheres).

[silent atlas]

then how did mordenkianan and bigbsy meet

[iron saffron]

(Greyhawk was Gary Gygax's personal campaign)

Mordenkainen and Bigby were once characters of players of Gygax's campaign.

Most of the named wizards (the ones some spells are named after) were once PCs from Gygax's campaign

[silent atlas]

how did mordenkian get to fearun

[iron saffron]

He's a powerful wizard who can travel across the Material Plane.

[silent atlas]

ya but from my knowlage traviling to another solar crystal requires more than just a plains shift

[iron saffron]

He's an archmage (he was a level 27 wizard back in 3E) so he can do stuff most wizards can't do including having the authors handwave what he can do in the modules/novels he was in.

He has had tea with Elminster and Ed Greenwood (the creator of the Forgotten Realms) here on Earth.

[silent atlas]

||yet the likes of strahd were abl to drive him mad||

[eager bay]

Earth, Toril, and Oerth share the same Material Plane, right?

[iron saffron]

Yes.

[calm crest]

There are multiple versions of the cosmology of the Material Plane(s). In some, there’s just one Prime Material Plane that contains all the campaign settings in different crystal spheres nestled within a sea of phlogiston. In others, there are myriad Material Planes, which independently contain campaign settings. Another iteration of the cosmology is that there is one Prime, and then there are infinite Alternate Primes as branching timelines that can be reached by things like probability travel or flukes of planar travel.

And the BECMI cosmology only has one Material Plane, but it contains an infinite universe with infinite inhabited and uninhabited solar systems—just most of the action takes place on Mystara.

[iron saffron]

Spelljammer (at least 2E version) was in one Material Plane and the worlds are contained within Crystal Spheres within it. To traverse between spheres characters could use spelljamming ships to sail through the phlogiston.

Forgotten Realms had used the Great Tree cosmology before but "recently" switched to the Great Wheel.

So yes, each setting does have its own cosmology.

[calm crest]

And there’s also settings like Eberron, Dark Sun/Athas, and Masque of the Red Death/Gothic Earth, which are functionally in their own cosmologies completely and unreachable from other worlds.

[iron saffron]

Athas' Crystal Sphere (aka Athasspace) was locked so noone could go in or out via spelljammer.

[calm crest]

With the exception of Ravenloft being able to make copies of them, because the Dark Powers can do pretty much anything.

Did 2e ever officially connect the Known World to the Spelljammer universe? I know there was AD&D content for Mystara, but did they actually combine the cosmologies?

I guess the same would go for whether or not any Domains of Dread reference Mystara. I’m mostly just curious if there’s any official connection between the mainstream/Advanced series multiverse and the Basic one.

[iron saffron]

I know next to nothing about Mystara

[magic jackal]

Are you familiar with what a Deva is?

Sure you're not confusing them with something else?

[unkempt merlin]

Deva don't grow up like that

[magic jackal]

Devas are lower ranking angels, created fully formed in the higher planes, and they serve as Celestial Messengers, Stewards, and Soldiers. Occasionally they might take a human disguise if it served their purposes of spreading Good in other realms.

D&D Angels lorewise typically do not grow up

they're just made fully formed.

Are you familiar with Aasimar?

That treads into the realm of "ask your DM"

[unkempt merlin]

In most settings, that's not really how celestials (and aasimar) work

[magic jackal]

It's suggested that Aasimar may be descended from Celestials directly, or that they're much further back in their lineage, but iirc the more common explanation for their existence is a child blessed at birth by a Celestial.

If they are descended from Celestials, it's typically one of the ranks of Angels, i.e. Deva, Planeter, Solar etc.

which ofc, do not grow up, are just made

if it's from a longer lineage, then the parents might be normal mortals, or they might also be aasimar

and if they're just celestial-touched at birth, then their parents are most likely just normal mortals

Hope that clarifies it.

But again, this is just what's supported by the official lore, you should always consult your DM first, that matters more.

[spark haven]

Same deal with tieflings. It's a "recessive" trait, a tiefling appearing in the family just means that somewhere, somewhen in your lineage, someone interacted with a fiend in some way, positive or negative

maybe you had a spectaularly devout great great great greatgrandfather who earned a minor boon from Gond

[white ravine]

Not...exactly.

Tiefling is actually dominant, since any tiefling mix leads to another tiefling. Since theyre initially born from magical 'birth' such as a curse or a deal though, thats why it can be delayed

Offer your future grandson and boom, theyre a tiefling

[fading mason]

Is there a rat folk race in Faerun? I’m reflavoring a harengon to be a stinky rat boy but I don’t want him to be a like permanently transitioned wererat

[magic jackal]

Apart from were-rats, I don't recall there being any ratfolk in the Forgotten Realms.

[iron saffron]

There were the nezumi from 3E Oriental Adventures but that was based on the Legends of the Five Rings' Rokugan campaign setting rather than FR's Kara-Tur setting.

[sour trout]

I remember reading a theory somewhere that beholders are ancient knowledge probes sent out from a long-forgotten god, but I can't remember if it was official lore or not. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

[iron saffron]

The beholders do have a god, the Great Mother
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Mother

[hardy wave]

Is there any in-game connection between rakshasas and tabaxis? besides both looking like cats?

[calm crest]

They have no specific connections, to the best of my knowledge. Tabaxi do have more magical counterparts called jaguar lords (basically like what lizard kings are to lizardfolk or flinds are to gnolls), but they are chaotic evil rather than lawful. They come from different locations, and are inspired by different cultures.

[iron saffron]

No. Rakshasa are Fiends. Tabaxis are Humanoids

[tulip warren]

If a changeling is in a female form, gets pregnant, and then changes into a male form, what happens to the baby?
Or are they incapable of changing sexes when pregnant?

[zenith dust]

ask your DM, that is thankfully not noted in 5e

[tame jacinth]

I had it where they could still change just not to male but I’ve had a game where they made pods like dubble ganggers so it’s up to dm @tulip warren

[modest badger]

If you really want to have some kind of answer, Keith Baker, author of Eberron, dives into some questions like this on his blog, usually with a lot of nuance and respecting individual DMs. This is only his suggestion and it not 'RAW':

Can all changelings get pregnant? Are they biologically asexual and just choose their current sex with shapeshifting?

Yes. What’s been stated in the past is that changelings set their sex with shapeshifting. Prior canon has said that a pregnant changeling actually loses the ability to shapeshift during the pregnancy. This seems extreme to me, but I could see the idea that they need to maintain a female form in order to maintain the pregnancy (and that shifting form very early in the pregnancy would simply end it, so changelings have a very easy form of birth control). The idea that changing sex is an instinctual thing, like flipping a light switch, and that a normal changeling couldn’t, for example, assume a male form but keep the uterus. With that said, if you had a changeling called out as having greater control over their abilities (for example, the Changeling Menagerie druid I’ve mentioned elsewhere) I might allow that.
https://keith-baker.com/faq-changelings/

Interesting he says prior canon though, implying this is 'official lore' somewhere.

Yeah 3.5 goes into that in Races of Eberron:

If a changeling in a female form conceives a child, she loses the ability to change her gender until after the child is born.
You can also see some outdated language here conflating sex with gender.

However, this is not in 5e. And Baker implies this need no longer be the case, and so as Dave said- ask your DM

[sonic ridge]

Ey guys, got a lore question rq, where are mind flayers located in the present universe of DnD, like are they exclusive to the underdark, are some still in the astral sea?

[modest badger]

They are still in both as the appear in underdark modules and in Spelljammer modules, which now take place in the astral sea

[sonic ridge]

Which are they more well known for/more popular in?

[modest badger]

Gonna refer to 5e MM lore for that:

Mind flayers, also called illithids, are the scourge of sentient creatures across countless worlds. Psionic tyrants, slavers, and interdimensional voyagers, they are insidious masterminds that harvest entire races for their own twisted ends. Four tentacles snake from their octopus-like heads, flexing in hungry anticipation when sentient creatures come near.

In eons past, illithids controlled empires that spanned many worlds. They subjugated and consequently warped whole races of humanoid slaves, including the githyanki and githzerai, the grimlocks, and the kuo-toa. Conjoined by a collective consciousness, the illithids hatch plots as far-reaching and evil as their fathomless minds can conceive.

Since the fall of their empires, illithid collectives on the Material Plane have resided in the Underdark.

They seem to be a dying empire in astral sea, with nautiloids being rare, but known for being in the underdark now.

[sonic ridge]

Kk

[sonic ridge]

Quick question, what are some popular intelligent races in the underdark?

[modest badger]

Top of my head-
Svirfneblin (deep gnomes), drow, Duegar, Derro if you want to bring them in, kuo-toa, mind flayers are some of the more popular ones.
Myconids are also intelligent.

Quaggoth are intelligent but get treated as lesser beings. In other settings plenty of goblinoids also live in the underdark, from goblins to bugbears to hobgoblins.

[summer tulip]

Was directed this way. I'm reading that Slarkrethel from SKT seeks to become a deity of some sort so he can rejoin his creators. But would achieving such a goal even be feasible? Like can one simply just become a God and it not cause a great disruption in the outer realms and what not?

[modest badger]

It is acheivable- Vecna, Myrkul, Midnight and so on have all acheived it

[fervent knot]

That sort of thing tends to work “as the plot demands” in Forgotten Realms lore. Like, there are definitely examples of mortals who became deities of one sort or another over the years. Various in the avatar trilogy, Finder Wyvernspur, etc.

[summer tulip]

My understanding of Ao is that he is largely uninterested in interferance with the material, but would he kinda just watch something like this happen and be like "oh well, guess I have another deity to deal with now" also appreciate the info for sure! Just trying to get an idea of the repercussions of such an action before having something so world-shaking happen

[modest badger]

Well sometimes becoming a god does break things.

Vecna broke D&D hard enough to be responsible for an edition change 😛

[fervent knot]

There are examples where Ao’s involvement was not specifically called out. Like that wasn’t a thing when Finder took over Moander’s deity hood, it was described as just a thing you could do.

[modest badger]

Other times, it's mortals ascending by being empowered by another god, or assuming the role of a fallen god.

Also depends heavily on edition. AD&D had plenty of hero and quasi-deities that were mortals who just became so skilled and legendary they somewhat ascended (also because Gygax was honoring friends and making nods to PCs)

[fervent knot]

“As the plot demands”, there is little consistency to it.

[summer tulip]

Interesting. I was considering having Slark try to usurp umberlee even or take her place, but nevertheless, awesome. I'll figure something out as the plot demands. Appreciate y'all!

[modest badger]

Have him be responsible for the change into One D&D 😉

Darn Slark broke D&D

[bright ember]

How does elven aging work? Is a 25 year old or 250 year old elf physically similar to a 25 year old human? Or are both, I guess..?

[modest badger]

25 years old is both mentally and physically mature, but 100 is culturally an adult.

Age. Although elves reach physical maturity at about the same age as humans, the elven understanding of adulthood goes beyond physical growth to encompass worldly experience. An elf typically claims adulthood and an adult name around the age of 100 and can live to be 750 years old.

While out dated, from Races of the Wild (3.5) there is also this:

Table 6–4 of the Player’s Handbook suggests that elves don’t reach their full physical growth until an age of 110, at a minimum. That’s not entirely accurate. The random starting age for elves is simply the age at which many elf adventurers feel ready to leave their forests and roam the world outside for a time. More than a few elves have commenced their adventuring careers at much younger ages.
Elf children grow almost as swiftly as human children to age 15 or so; a 10-year-old elf boy and a 10-year-old human boy are nearly the same size and have similar mental and emotional maturity.
(...)
Humans finish their “filling out” and full adult growth by about age 20, but elves take a little longer, rarely reaching their full height and weight before age 25. After that, elves remain virtually timeless, decade after decade. Not even another elf can tell at a glance whether an elf is 25, 50, or 100 years of age.
This book also implies certain things like marriages and having children (not romances mind) is something that is considered for elves who are at least a century, and have had time to find themselves and not be tied down too early with commitments.

[iron saffron]

At the age of 100 an elf finally chooses their adult name. It is also when they finally forget memories from their past lives (elves are reincarnated after each death, assuming they're in the good graces of Corellon Larethian (the drow under the sway of Lolth aren't))

[spice radish]

Can someone give me a lore-friendly reason for an "empathetic" red dragon to hoard gold and act as a protector of a mining village that provides a steady stream of said gold? I'm trying to run a true neutral red dragon

[iron saffron]

This is more of a #dm-discussion question.

As DM you can make monsters any alignment you see fit.

[spice radish]

I was wondering if there's something in lore that explains why dragons hoard gold, and then i could spin off from that

[iron saffron]

From the Monster Manual on alignment:

The alignment specified in a monster’s stat block is the default. Feel free to depart from it and change a monster’s alignment to suit the needs of your campaign. If you want a good-aligned green dragon or an evil storm giant, there’s nothing stopping you.

[spice radish]

the alignment itself isnt important to me

[iron saffron]

Fizban's Treasury of Dragons explores why dragons hoard treasure — they get power from it and not only just as they age.

[spice radish]

and the rest is up to mystery?

[iron saffron]

That's the tl;dr without copying and pasting that section from Fizban's

The earlier editions' Dragonomicon books fill in more than Fizban's I believe on dragon lore.

[calm crest]

The general (chromatic) dragon archetype of D&D is based on Smaug, who is in turn based on the dragon of Beowulf. Dragons hoard treasure because it’s the draconic thing to do; they’re basically an elemental force of greed. Much like how most undead are compelled to destroy the living, most dragons are compelled to collect treasure.

[molten osprey]

at least, that's what Fizban thinks

[iron saffron]

Well, Fizban is Bahumat so he's a pretty good source of dragon lore. 😉

[molten osprey]

did they make the Paladine-Bahamut link canon then?

[iron saffron]

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/ftod/elegy-for-the-first-world#Dragonlance

with Paladine and Takhisis easily identifiable as Bahamut and Tiamat

Meanwhile, Paladine, in the guise of a doddering old wizard named Fizban, walked among the peoples of Krynn to aid them—just as Bahamut has done on many worlds throughout their long histories.

[molten osprey]

I thought they had pretty much explicitly said Takhisis isn't tiamat (whilejust refusing to confirm bahamut/paladine)

[iron saffron]

Deities and Demigods and other past editions books have said gods can exist on different cosmologies. If Lolth dies in one she can still exist in another (I guess this is similiar to the echoes of great wryms).

[crude blaze]

The source truly is quite pretty

[iron saffron]

+good

[unkempt merlin]

What setting?

[dawn crest]

What's a good disease for a PC to catch from eating a bit of raw brain recovered from a Neh-Thalggu?

She regularly eats horrible things, and now I want to come up with an appropriately gross but gameplay-enhancing side effect.

[calm crest]

Mindfire would make sense.

[molten osprey]

more DM related than Lore related, but look up Prion Disease and go from there

[white ravine]

A what?

However, blinding sickness is a go-to for me.

[calm crest]

A neh-thalggu, a.k.a. your best buddy from Château d'Amberville, a.k.a. a brain collector.

Kinda weird in hindsight that Castle Amber introduced more than one variety of intelligent spell-using spider monster.

[fringe dagger]

Which dragons were the first dragons? The Metallic Dragons, or the Chromatic Dragons?

[iron saffron]

Yes.

[flat void]

in fizbans with the first world, tiamat and bahamut were created by Io and they created sardior.

[eager bay]

Neither. Technically, now with the addition of magic, the first dragon was the ur dragon, and it birthed the og dragon in the forgotten realms, who then birthed null, tiamat and bahamut.

[fringe dagger]

Ok.

Pathfinder’s old lore (before it’s remaster) seems to make it that the Metallic Dragons were the original or first dragons, before Tiamat corrupted them into the original first Chromatic Dragons.

[iron saffron]

But that doesn't mean much here as this is a D&D lore channel.

[flat void]

pathfinder has different lore than d&d

[iron saffron]

They had to for legal reasons.

[flat void]

ok?

[iron saffron]

Just sayin'

[molten osprey]

Io escaped the Batraci(?) and now freed from her improsionment thew a moon and at her captors wiping them out and the multitude of meteors that crashed into he planet as part of that destruction spawned the various Dragons

[runic totem]

Do black holes exist?

In wildspace or the phlogiston

Also, would red dragons exist in Avernus

Would the lawful alignment of the place make them less likely to live there? A mismatched alignment to a plane makes you feel uncomfortable, wouldn't it

[eager bay]

Is it just me, or do none of the non-human races' cultures seem to change over time?

[unkempt merlin]

in many settings they change about as much as the human ones do, so it might just be you

[eager bay]

Depends on the setting, of course

and a lot of your vanilla settings tend to be in a medieval stasis with modern amenities via magic, namely FR and iirc Mystara

[unkempt merlin]

again, not really

[iron saffron]

Yes, since Tiamat is on Avernus.

[iron saffron]

Official settings don't move that much forward in time. Elves, dwarves, and gnomes are longer lived than humans so they're not in a rush like humans are. Halflings take it easy in their valleys smoking smokeweed — why change when your life is easy?

Worlds of D&D don't evolve technologically, otherwise we would be playing Modern d20 or Cyberpunk if that's the case if they have high tech with magic.

In any case this channel is about lore of official D&D settings.

[eager bay]

look at Eberron lel

[iron saffron]

And?

[eager bay]

I was saying since that have a lot of magitek

[eager bay]

I think I can get behind this for non-human races on the basis that they tend to be real isolated from each other. Otherwise we'd have a lot of knowledge passed around

[iron saffron]

Okay, that's Eberron.

[eager bay]

I assume the technological stasis among humans had in part to do with religious edict, if the IRL Middle Ages be anything to go by

[iron saffron]

FR is more in the Renaissance Period than Medieval.

[crude blaze]

And even then, it’s static, because they go for certain themes and genre to play in

FR doesn’t have technological advancement because of any in-lore reason, it’s just cuz it’s designed to be a high fantasy sandbox that sticks to a mix of Renaissance and light medieval tones

[iron saffron]

FR's official timeline has only moved up about 140 years since it debuted in late 1E (there was a 100 year jump forward between 3E and 4E for reasons...)

[eager bay]

For elves, dwarves, and gnomes it'd prob be different

[iron saffron]

In real life cultures don't change quickly for a reason because most ethnicities prefer to stay together and share their common culture.

It's only recently that with the Internet that cultures have influenced each other

Anyway, we are drifting away from the point of this channel...

[eager bay]

thx

[unkempt merlin]

not really tech, mostly just magic. And I don't really see your point with that either? Eberron as a setting has the same amount of history with "different cultures advancing in different ways" as any other setting? Its just a different style than others.

[proper horizon]

That's a problematic trope in all fantasy settings, not just d&d. For some reason, a lot of fantasy worlds tend to simply stagnate for centuries or millennia. The OOC reason is that the writer is lazy. But IC, there's rarely any logical reason for the stagnation at all.

Heck, WH40K pokes fun at that trope and deconstructs it with how the IoM has stagnated for thousands of years because of religious dogma.

[eager bay]

I can get behind the idea of the widespread existence of magic making advancements in conventional tech redundant, but still

[eager bay]

Dune had something similar because of the Butlerian Jihad

[unkempt merlin]

right thats the thing, there are still advancements in tech and the like in the history of... basically every setting

Its just that due to the nature of yknow. Stories and the like, the focal point of a setting a specific period of time

[sharp owl]

This channel is for discussing D&D lore
Please stay on topic

If you want to discuss the lore of other IPs, or writing tropes, please use #non-dnd-topics

[foggy seal]

How did followers of Helm or gods in general (Forgotten Realms) know what their gods wanted or valued or needed them to do? Did they have bibles? Did people communicate directly with them?

[iron saffron]

Holy scriptures, prayers and spells like Commune, omens, visions/dreams, proxies of gods (like angels), and aspects/avatars of the gods.

[molten osprey]

it's because of magic

When you can use magic to accomplish things like communication or lighting, or food preservation, or indoor heatingm you don;t feel a pressing need for advancement

same for war, what use is a gun when the gods don't allow gun powder to work, and some scrawny guy in a robe can cast chain lightining

[stoic elm]

Aren't warforged from ebberon straight up magic robots? That would probably count as magitech, wouldn't it

[unkempt merlin]

they are are much robots or magitech as a clay golem

but no, they aren't robots

[zenith dust]

They are not robots, I recommend reading literally any of the eberron books

They are fully sentient, fully sapient living creatures with souls and biology, that happen to be composed of wood, metal, stone, and organic materials

Vampires can feed on them

[slender shell]

this is not true. Trade, war, etc. create massive cross cultural influences

[slender shell]

I always assumed we were to read the lore like human history. we are where we are now for the purpose of the story, but history is full of forward and backward steps

[modest badger]

Oh yeah, things like religions notoriously only stayed in one spot before the internet.
And no one ever travelled and shared stories.
Or colonised.
These are all post-internet things for sure.

[slender shell]

i.e. forgotten realm mythals, Netheril etc

[eager bay]

Yeah, and I think as mentioned above, the longer-lived races could see the technological levels in their societies stagnate because of their longer lifespan, though also if they have more access to magic than us

that, and assuming that they really don't cohabit with human society, let alone each other

[slender shell]

Plus, if you think about it, it took humans tens of thousands of years to really kick what we think of as technological advancement and literate culture into action

[eager bay]

Religious edicts might've had a role in that ngl

@slender shell ye?

[modest badger]

In Greyhawk dwarves are eventually responsible for inventing cars, and gnomes in various settings often get attributed inventions too.

[eager bay]

Oh really

[modest badger]

And there's random things oocasionally on inventions (My knowledge is a bit Greyhawk biased here):

• Gygax in Dragon Magazine 30 talkes about using some systems like Gamma World and Boothill to run more modern games, and talks about ideas for a more modern greyhawk. Magic works, but specifically clerid spells but are limited to below 3rd level. Gunpowder does not work, as Greyhawk has a a rule about it.
• Greyhawk 2000 is in Dragon #277 and Dungeon #83. Elves have Elven biotech, which is actually more magic sci-fi and advanced than most of the human tech, which is more 2000's tech level. Dwarves use gunpowder weapons (somehow getting gunpowder to work), but it's considered 'outdated'. In 1917 the 'Dwarven Citicar' is made and becomes the best selling automobile.
• There are at least two spaceships crashed in greyhawk that can affect technology. One in Blackmoor (City of the Gods), one in the barrier peaks.
• Derro also invent world destroying machines in greyhawk.
• Murlynd is god of invention and paladins. He uses 'firewands' (guns), his aura allows gunpowder to work, and his spells are tech themed. He also has a house in dungeonland with a fridge and VHS player. Cus he's basically a strange time travelling cowboy sherrif slash paladin

Tinker gnomes are well.. that. Think about Rock gnomes 5e ability, but then more. In Dragonlance Tinkergnomes get up to a lot. Autognomes and all that. And Lantan in Faerun.

Things like Leyden Jar batteries also turn up in some adventures, like A3 Assault on the Aerie of the slave lords.

[eager bay]

Most D&D settings have humans be overwhelmingly dominant, right? Remind me

[modest badger]

Yep. AD&D even stated that was the exact intention.

[eager bay]

Like, maybe >95% humans?

[modest badger]

1e DMG page 21:

ADVANCED D&D is unquestionably “humanocentric”, with demi-humans, semi-humans, and humanoids in various orbits around the sun of humanity. Men are the worst monsters, particularly high level characters such as clerics, fighters, and magic-users — whether singly, in small groups, or in large companies. (...) The game features humankind for a reason. It is the most logical basis in an illogical game. From a design aspect it provides the sound groundwork. From a standpoint of creating the campaign milieu it provides the most readily usable assumptions. From a participation approach it is the only method, for all players are, after all is said and done, human, and it allows them the role with which most are most desirous and capable of identifying with. From all views then it is enough fantasy to assume a swords & sorcery cosmos, with impossible professions and make-believe magic. To adventure amongst the weird is fantasy enough without becoming that too!

[iron saffron]

Well, that's because players/audience are human so we relate more to humans in a fantasy/sci-fi setting...

[eager bay]

Yeah, that go for Greyhawk in particular, don't remember if FR was more varied

[iron saffron]

Humans dominate FR as well.

[eager bay]

You know what my biggest rife with a lot of fantasy settings with multiple sapient races is?

[modest badger]

Not quite 95% I think but close to.. Like I did try to go through 1e and look at the cities populations and demographic rules to get some estimates of demographics, and it is 92% human using that, but they're not really that accurate because it focuses on human cities. (3% elf, 2% Dwarf, 2% halfling, 2% 'other' mostly meaning orcs and gnolls and such.)

[eager bay]

Did 1e not mention gnomes?

or are they in that 2% "other"

[modest badger]

Gnomes were more under dwarves at tha tpoint

no wait sorry, tired, misread my own notes

[stoic elm]

I mean from what I have seen they're described as machines with mechanical components and not flesh or organs, so I don't see why their sentience makes them any less robots

[modest badger]

87% Human, 3% Elven, 2% Gnome, 1% Dwarf, 1% Halfling, 6% other

[modest badger]

Robot makes folk think 'beep boop, beep boop, I am a metal and electrical machine with AI, beep boop', where as a warforged is a being like any other, with a soul, but whose form was made with magical means and has biology.

[iron saffron]

It's been established that warforged are not mindless robots. They're sentient/sapient beings with souls (thus they can be healed and raised/resurrected). In terms of gameplay mechanics, they are treated as Humanoid and not Constructs.

[modest badger]

And get diseases and be poisoned

[eager bay]

But back on this, and this is just my own diatribe, but I feel that a lot of "standard" fantasy tends to have the various non-human races be synonymous with their cultures. The subraces all be culturally monolithic, stat block and all, but then just us humans. Goes back to the whole planet of hats trope (which I loathe with a passion); perhaps there be a fine line of "they may as well be humans," at least for certain races, ye?

Obviously whether the world lean towards evolution or be creationist might play a role; the Master handled having multiple races perfectly tho

[iron saffron]

There are reasons fiction does this because again it's easier for the audience to comprehend a non-human species by describing them as monocultures. Real life humans barely comprehend the hundreds of different cultures and thousands of languages we have as it is, so it would be a Tolkien amount of work to give each non-human species as many cultures and languages that we have in reality.

[eager bay]

No, of course

[stoic elm]

Ok, but the literal definition of a robot is a machine designed to do a human task and function automatically. If I remember correctly warforged were originally designed to fight in wars (presumably in place of other biological creatures) and they function automatically, so they're robots.

[modest badger]

But also never called robots and even their author says not to call them that

[eager bay]

Et tu, Elgate?

[iron saffron]

But they're not servants any more because they gained free will and have souls.

I'm not into Eberron lore and I know this.

[stoic elm]

Ok, but that doesnt change the literal definition of a robot

[modest badger]

Warforged are often dismissed as “magical robots,” but it’s a flawed analogy. Warforged are formed from wood and metal, but they are living creatures. Their musculature is formed from a rootlike substances, and they have a circulatory system of alchemical fluids. A warforged can be healed, and they can even be poisoned, though it’s not easy. Warforged have feelings, and while this is something that’s debated in Eberron itself, the fact is that they have souls; the real mystery is where those souls come from.
https://keith-baker.com/rising-from-the-last-war-the-warforged/

[eager bay]

That's not to say that their cultures be based on the environment that they evolved in, I suppose.

[iron saffron]

There are plenty of sci-fi that explores the humanity of living machines who gain sentience.

[eager bay]

There can be multiple cultures among those races, even if maybe one or two get most of the plot's spotlight

[iron saffron]

Again, fiction does this for easy if not laziness (see Star Wars' trope of having planets with one ecosystem...)

[modest badger]

Only if you define them as machines. Which they are not.

[eager bay]

Wait, like a single biome?

[stoic elm]

Why would they not be machines

[eager bay]

We're getting off-topic tho

[unkempt merlin]

Because they aren't?

[iron saffron]

Sure, if you have the time and energy to explore this. Star Trek has done this over its several series with Klingons, Romulans, and Vulcans...

[unkempt merlin]

Unless you also are classifying humans as a machine

In which case humans are also robot

[stoic elm]

They're made of metal and wood and are not organic, they're machines. They're living and sentient machines, but still mechanical in nature

[modest badger]

They have biology. Again- they can be poisoned, they can catch diseases, they bleed, heal, have souls.

[unkempt merlin]

Wood is definitely organic

[iron saffron]

Dagobah = swamp planet
Hoth = frozen arctic planet
Endor moon = forest moon
Tatooine = desert planet

[unkempt merlin]

The entire point is that they are living. Not just an animated construct.

[eager bay]

I think it can be obvious when it's a more out-of-laziness example

[modest badger]

No wait, my bad they are immune to disease.

Not poison though, but are resistant

[stoic elm]

I'd argue that's for gameplay purposes and not for lore purposes, it'd be overpowered to have a playable character that's immune to all forms of disease and poisons

[iron saffron]

Lore has already been established. Why argue against it?

[modest badger]

...like druids and monks?

[stoic elm]

They can be living but also mechanical, I don't understand the disconnect

[iron saffron]

The modrons of Mechanus aren't robots either... (In AD&D they were organic looking)

[unkempt merlin]

So humans are robots too then?

[stoic elm]

Just looking at the modrons pictures in the mm, they look like they're made of living flesh

[modest badger]

Also they're not even constructs in 5e, but humanoids. although in 3.5 they were 'living constructs'.

[unkempt merlin]

That's the thing, its literally not just for gameplay purposes, it's gameplay is based on lore

[stoic elm]

Are humans made of metal and gears and other not organic things

[iron saffron]

Modrons in 1E were more organic looking but with 2E Planescape they were more mechanical looking with the renaming of the LN plane of Nirvana to Mechanus.

[modest badger]

Warforged are not made of metal and gears.

[unkempt merlin]

But warforged don't have gears and whatnot. They have analogs to organs,blood, etc

Lorewise they are distinctly not "just robots"

[modest badger]

Living Steel and Stone. Warforged are formed from a blend of organic and inorganic materials. **Root-like cords infused with alchemical fluids serve as their muscles, wrapped around a framework of steel, darkwood, or stone. **Armored plates form a protective outer shell and reinforce joints. Warforged share a common facial design, with a hinged jaw and crystal eyes embedded beneath a reinforced brow ridge. Beyond these common elements of warforged design, the precise materials and build of a warforged vary based on the purpose for which it was designed.
Although they were manufactured, warforged are living humanoids. Resting, healing magic, and the Medicine skill all provide the same benefits to warforged that they do to other humanoids.

[iron saffron]

Let's watch Bladerunner again and see who is considered "human"

[stoic elm]

Ok. They have mechanical facsimiles for organs. That doesn't make them any less mechanical

[unkempt merlin]

"Rootlike chords of muscle wrapped around a framework of bone" is a good way to describe humans too

[modest badger]

Everyone else seems to be having a very different concept of machine to you.

[unkempt merlin]

Ok by this definition humans are also machines then.

[iron saffron]

Seems organic too me.

[unkempt merlin]

Thus also robots

[iron saffron]

Warforge Roy: "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack ships on fire on the layer of Avernus... I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near Tiamat's Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain... Time to die."

[modest badger]

They're pretty different to beings like nimblewrights for example:

A nimblewright is a magical construct created to serve as a guard or assassin. Composed predominantly of lightweight wood and powered by magic, it can pass for humanoid while wearing clothing. Some nimblewrights wear plain clothing, while others are clad in flashier attire. A nimblewright is emotionless, its face frozen in whatever expression was given to it by its creator.
Constructed Nature. A nimblewright doesn't require air, food, drink, or sleep. Damage it takes can be repaired with mending spells, but a nimblewright reduced to 0 hit points is permanently destroyed.

They actually do show some personality, but nimblewrights are very much contructs still. They cannot be healed by healing magic and they have no souls to be raised.

in older lore, nimblewrights are elemental water spirits bound to a construct.

But otherwise- has no biology to speak of. It really is metal and gears.

[unkempt merlin]

But regardless, lorewise, as in the purposes of this channel. (And definitionally) Warforged are not robots.

Explicitly not

[iron saffron]

Lore has been established that warforged are not robots so there's no point arguing against it.

[modest badger]

There's def room in universe to discuss where the line lies for personhood and if it matters- warforged have emotions, souls and biology so they count to many now, although there is still debate within Eberron's world. Nimblewrights are constructs that in 5e might just be constructs (They cannot speak, but have 8 int), where as older nimblewrights were constructs but had personality and speech and may have spirits animating them too.

[crude blaze]

And then there’s autognomes, who are constructs, but who are also capable (in limited capacity) of healing

[modest badger]

But that becomes part of the theme to explore and unpack, rather than what the lore just says.

[unkempt merlin]

It's part of the noir theming

[stoic elm]

I'm not arguing against warforged being sentient and, for lack of a better term, alive. But like, they literally fit every definition of machine or robot. They also don't fit the biological definition of living, since they don't reproduce, they don't have dna, they don't eat or afaik consume any outside energy. I will completely agree that they are sentient people, but they also literally are robots. Ig if the lore writers disagree they can, but that doesn't change the what our current dictionaries and biology would define them as

[unkempt merlin]

And what we are saying is that they don't "literally fit every definition of machine or robot"

Or at least, no more than humans do

[stoic elm]

Ok, what's the definition of a robot then

[unkempt merlin]

Well do you want to talk machine or robot? You have been swapping between the two interchangeably when they certainly aren't. And regardless, this channel isn't the place for it. Lorewise and definitionally warforged aren't robots so a grammar discussion should go elsewhere

[modest badger]

What we have is that robot just doesn't easily apply here anyway.
There's magic involved, and alchemy, and the writers have never refered to them as robots, and have even said the term doesn't fit.

And it also runs into the issue you were just having were calling them robots leads people to imagine something quite different from the text, such as imagining them to be predominantly metal and have gears.

Where as they're more like magic golems with metal bones and frames, wrapped in magic plant matter and has alchemical blood.

Like.. is a simulacrum a robot? it's made of snow and blood, but it's a construct and it replicates a human >.>

But if you said 'Oh, a simulacrum is a robot' people would get confused by imagining well.. a robot.

Not a very mobile snowman.

Robot's just not a very good term for most things in D&D. Construct at least is defined within the game world.

(there have been actual robots in D&D too though)

[unkempt merlin]

Like I said way at the top of the discussion: warforged are no more a robot than a clay golem is

[modest badger]

Which is pretty apt creation wise- or like a homunculous.

Shaping a mixture of clay, ash, mandrake root, and blood, one can channel rare ritual magic to create a faithful, squirrel-sized companion.
A homunculus is a construct that acts as an extension of its creator, with the two sharing thoughts, senses, and language through a mystical bond. A master can have only one homunculus at a time (attempts to create another one always fail), and when its master dies, the homunculus also dies.

[eager bay]

Could any of the "stock" humankin races be derived from the same common ancestor as us humans?

[crude blaze]

What do you mean?

[modest badger]

Evolution is a tricky thing to bring into fantasy. It's been tried- even in D&D. But it's weird.

[crude blaze]

Most D&D campaign settings (at least official ones) follow a creationist philosophy, and not an evolutionary one

[modest badger]

Halflings if you go by old tolkienisms, are related to man I believe.

But also depends on editions.

[unkempt merlin]

Lorewise most of them aren't. Assuming you want the same discussion that's been had multiple times this week, the channel for coming up with theoretical worldbuilding still isn't this one

[crude blaze]

Meaning there’s no common ancestor, because everybody is either a single disruptive degree off of another race, or a completely original race created by some form of intervention, namely divine.

[eager bay]

They are in Tolkien

[eager bay]

we can move it to #non-dnd-topics if you wish

[crude blaze]

Might even fit better in #dm-world-building

Assuming you’re doing this for D&D

[unkempt merlin]

I have no particular preference because I have already contributed to the conversation many of the other times you've brought it up. Just letting you know that this isn't the channel for it

[white ravine]

None of the stock ones iirc

[eager bay]

wait, why?

[modest badger]

Very easily starts falling into scientific racism, but also because: Fantasy.

It doesn't really fit the aesthetic, especially when trying to get a time frame for it all, nor do most fantasy creatures make any kind of sense for evolution. It's a lot of science to try applying to a game with centaurs, fairies and half-dragons.

[eager bay]

Right right

Besides

You can have your cake and eat it too

[modest badger]

And just reminded of some of the awkward things in 1e when they started to break out phrenology for explaining why wild elves couldn't do magic, and also the awkwardness of cavemen being.. a thing? and the Book of Elves.

[eager bay]

I was only thinking evolution within the scope of the main humanoid races

maybe go down the Shannara route or smth

[crude blaze]

If you’re thinking of evolution from our real world as well, think of it. It would take an incredible amount of time for a common ancestor to split off into all those different “stock humanoid” races. And for the most part, a lot of settings really aren’t that old.

[modest badger]

And all of my concerns and examples are about that still.

[eager bay]

Yep, young-world creationism

[crude blaze]

But again, 9/10 settings (just a guess on my part) is fully creationist. People exist in the state they exist because that’s what the gods made them to be.

[modest badger]

Oh joy, 3e brought Neanderthal back I missed they did that. https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Neanderthal

[crude blaze]

Yikes

[modest badger]

And by 'Oh Joy' I mean 'Oh.'

[eager bay]

But they could still drift over generations

[crude blaze]

Yeah, but they typically don’t

Y’know, Elves aside

[eager bay]

Most worlds are like 10k years plus old at oldest

which in the scope of evolution is basically nothing

[crude blaze]

Who very suddenly and dramatically change to fit the environment they settled in

[eager bay]

Wanna move this to DM?

[crude blaze]

No thank you

[eager bay]

But yeah, back to what you were saying, why didn't humans

since we humans didn't have a creator deity

[crude blaze]

Easiest answer is that the people who created the game didn’t believe in evolution, and thus never made it a thing in the game.

[eager bay]

🥁 🥁

[eager bay]

Fine, I'll cut to the chase: D&D comes off as depicting the various humanoid races as far more different than they actually are

IMHO

[unkempt merlin]

I'm not sure why you pinged me for that? You've made that very clear already

[eager bay]

oh right

yeah

anywho

[ionic rivet]

Please stop pinging folks like that. People can engage with the conversation as they want to or not.

[white ravine]

It...depends on what you mean by that. Some races are very much different but aren't given as much emphasis on what those differences are (especially in 5e)

[eager bay]

the humanoid ones, namely

[storm dagger]

What do you mean by different

[white ravine]

Well yeah, but which ones?

[eager bay]

Elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, and orcs

and humans too ofc

[storm dagger]

They are all pretty different culture wise

Mechanics wise as well

[white ravine]

Elves especially

[eager bay]

Do be fair, elves have origins that are strictly foreign to the Material Plane, unlike the others

much like in Shannara, actually

[mint wave]

Could a hollyphant fall?

[calm crest]

In the sense of rejecting capital-g Good?

Angels can fall and modrons can go rogue. I don’t see why a hollyphant couldn’t become evil.

[harsh eagle]

besides Jarlaxle, who are the most redeemable villains in DND? (I know other fiction has Zuko as the famous redeemed villain, but not sure if dnd has anything similar)

[white ravine]

If a Solar can, a hollyphant certainly could.

[storm dagger]

I assume they would turn into a malephant

[storm dagger]

Artemis Entreri who was more evil than Jarlaxle

Jarlaxle was never really particularly evil. His personality never much changed, he just became less immoral over time

[glacial granite]

Which deities would an Oath of Conquest paladin likely worship?

[stoic elm]

Do you mean a fall in the alignment sense or a fall in the physical sense because they have wings lol

[iron saffron]

Which setting?

[glacial granite]

forgotten realms

[vital heron]

Any War domain god will fit: Tempus probably the best fit.

Or Torm, who is both War Domain and the god of Paladins

[glacial granite]

Sounds good, thanks

[fiery axle]

Bane if you want to go evil I think

[calm crest]

Similarly, I’m pretty sure that Tiamat and Asmodeus would be happy to sponsor tyrannical paladins.

[long temple]

Yeah Bane or Grummsh if evil and Pelor or Torm if good

[harsh eagle]

Ohhh, how’s he redeemed? Like Killua or even John Wick?

[runic totem]

How often do demons get into Avernus? If a player was to travel along the styx, how long would it take to be attacked by a demon? Do demons usually make it further into hell?

[runic totem]

Do the demons usually outnumber the devils? Also, what devils and demons would you find? Would a pit fiend fight large groups of demons or just stay at home to command them?

[grim siren]

if an actual tanar'ri made it to dis and below that is a very very bad sign.

Demons always will outnumber the devils. Tanar'ri are seemingly infinite. Devils are not. While Tanar'ri have the numbers the Baatezu have infinitely more discipline and training. A Baatezu taking out thousands of Tanar'ri before dying would not be a stretch. But thousands are nothing when compared to infinity.

[sharp owl]

What are "tanar'ri"?

[crude blaze]

That’s the term used for demon in whatever edition came after the Satanic Panic

[sharp owl]

oh

[crude blaze]

They avoided using the terms “devil” and “demon”, used “baatezu” and “tanar’ri” instead

I think baatezu is the only of the two that made its way into 5E though

[unkempt merlin]

Closest we have to a mention of tanar'ri in 5e iirc is the tanarukk

[crude blaze]

Yeah that sounds right

Whereas baatezu is used right in the Monster Manual

[grim siren]

Tanar'ri last usage was in 4th I believe. I still use them because

A.) I am old and grew up with those terms.

B.) with my players at least having distinct names helps separate Demons/Devils/Daemons (Yuggoloths)

Its a rectangle Square thing. All Tanar'ri are "Demons" But not all demons are Tanar'ri. Some are called Obyirths and those are as old as the Abyss itself the only Obyirth in 5e is the Sibriex from the now decomissioned Tome of Foes and MMM. While not called Obyirth in that book they always have been in all previous appearances.

[sharp owl]

Sibrex from the now decomissioned Tome of Foes
Sibriex was reprinted in Monsters of the Multiverse

[grim siren]

dang, DDB only showing me the legacy option

well that is great.

[sharp owl]

That would suggest you don't own or have access to Monsters of the Multiverse

[grim siren]

But I do. I have about a 50% success rate with DDB search.

[sharp owl]

It's not the search, I can assure you

[crude blaze]

That's what it looks like for me too

[white ravine]

Constantly. Its not too hard to get there while using the Styx, provided your not hampered along the way.

As for deeper into hell, almost never. Everything past Avernus is usually safe from them

Being attacked in avernus by a demon is frequent however. Humanoids are the outsiders to the nine hells after all.

[runic totem]

So are the devils just destined to lose?

Like demons can lose infinite times, devils lose once

[grim siren]

But more souls are constantly being corrupted into devils.

[white ravine]

The demons hinge on strong but few factors. For example a majority of the tanarri horde is made from sibriex fleshwarpers, so killing them would massively hinder their spawning rate.

[grim siren]

It is in everyone's best interest. That is not a demon or devil that the Blood war continue forever.

[white ravine]

The shard of pure evil as well is the foundation of the abyss, and somehow removing it would be catastrophic to them

[white ravine]

1: Yes
2: Pretty much any in the books, and then some not in 5e
3: Both. Depends on which is most valuable at that encounter.

[runic totem]

So if a devil and demon were fighting, and the party arrived, would the demon just fight everyone and the devil would wait to see if they're helpful or not?

They're planning on going along the river styx, and it's the first time on a different plane so I wanna make sure everything's good

[white ravine]

Devil would focus the demon above the group, then sort out from there

A demon left alone for any amount of time will pretty much start duping more demons into existence

Kill them, burn them to ash, then burn the ashes to nothing. Thats the biggest priority for a devil

[runic totem]

Oh yeah, that's the summoner variants in the monster manual isn't it

[white ravine]

Even without that, demons are known to fart new horrors into existence by simply being present

[grim siren]

There are even some Demons that exist to just create opening to the Abyss.

[white ravine]

You can split a balor down the middle and a dozen manes will crawl out of the corpse mewling.

[runic totem]

How long does that take? And what's the scale? Would a balor take a day and make another balor, or just like a hezrou

[white ravine]

God knows, thats the worst part.

Theyre demons, corrupting energy made flesh. They poison existence and warp reality and by all means must be stopped

To a devil, a party are ants in the middle of an active housefire.

[runic totem]

So basically, whatever seems good

[white ravine]

Mhm.

[runic totem]

Alright, that's all my questions for the next 30 seconds, thanks

[white ravine]

Also, if the party fights the devil before the demon its safe to assume the devil will incinerate them like any other demon

[molten osprey]

if the devil is outclassed by the demon, it would happily work with the party

[storm dagger]

So Entreri was largely just a bad person who made his living as an assassin. He eventually gained a grudge against Drizzt cause the Drow matched his skill level (And had friends and happiness, making Entreri feel like if he did not best Drizzt, he had wasted his life for forsaking those things) and Drizzt hated him cause he viewed Entreri as what he would have become had he remained with the Drow.

After various conflicts Drizzt started losing this hate, and Entreri became more obsessed with besting Drizzt. Jarlaxle eventually set up a duel between the two, with intent to rez the loser though it ended up not being needed. After the area they were in collapsed Jarlaxle got Drizzt and sent him on his way, while telling Entreri that Drizzt had died. After this the years calmed Entreri and while he kept his edge he was much softened. Even after meeting Drizzt again he did not feel the need to prove himself better, and the two slowly became allies over time.

[harsh eagle]

sounds very cool

[haughty olive]

Entreri is my favorite

And if I remember correctly, Jarlaxle and his lieutenants did save Drizzt's life after Entreri more or less cheated by striking with a charged kinetic barrier

[iron saffron]

The term "Tanar'ri" was used by TSR in 2E during the Satanic Panic — they removed terms like angel, demon, daemon, and devil and replaced them with aasimon, tanar'ri, yugoloth, and baatezu. When the Satanic Panic was over by the end of 2E, TSR reverted back most of the names except for yugoloths and retconned that tanar'ri were one of three known species of demons and that devils were from the Nine Hells of Baator.

[storm dagger]

Neither of them would consider that cheating. They both have magic gear, and have no issue using it.

[storm dagger]

Nine Hells of Baator. Which the Baatezu are from.

[iron saffron]

Whoops, thanks!

[haughty olive]

Entreri's kinetic barrier was from Kimmuriel, Jarlaxle's lieutenant. Basically he intervened in the 1on1 to stop the fight and save Entreri's life as Drizzt had him dead to rights. Then when Drizzt said he's done fighting, Entreri snapped. Even Entreri didn't feel right about the victory.

So, third party intervention in a duel ≈ cheating imo

[grim siren]

Which is super fun because they are not the original inhabitants of Baator. That goes to the well.... Baatorians which all that is left are Nupperbios and allegedly Zargon

[pearl hinge]

I don't understand why Zargon doesn't try to take over the Abyss. Since he is more than capable of challenging Demogorgon for the title of Prince of Demons.

[iron saffron]

Zargon isn't a demon lord.
Demogorgon doesn't control the Abyss. Other demon lords just covet his title. The Abyss controls itself.

[pearl hinge]

His still a fiend. Which does qualify him still like the Obyriths too. And I know the Abyss controls itself. The Prince of Demons is more than just a title though. It gives the beholder control over all demons, except Demon Lords.

[iron saffron]

He has more ties with Hell than the Abyss though.

[pearl hinge]

He got his ass kicked by Asmodeus twice. He ain't going back there.

[iron saffron]

And I thought he's an Elder Evil?

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Well, lots of older fiends have weakened in power since the rise of Demogorgon.

(I found 5E's Demogorgon weak compared to the 3E version so I had to increase his power for my campaign)

[calm crest]

Zargon sure has come a long ways from his Lost City origin…

[iron saffron]

He hasn't been heard of since 4E?

[calm crest]

He’s briefly mentioned as a warlock patron in 5e, I believe.

[pearl hinge]

Yea as GOOlock patron.

[calm crest]

The Mystaran B4 interpretation of Zargon as a herald of the Outer Beings (such as possibly Arik of revised B3 fame) isn’t too different from the mainline universe Elder Evil interpretation, I suppose. Just a very different scale of power.

[runic totem]

Are there cities or towns in Avernus?

Or just standalone fortresses

[pale stump]

yes, actually!

in planescape there was this lore bit about how, when a place on a specific plane gets too much like a place on another plane in alignment, it can literally shift locations like a weird planar copy paste

to get more soldiers for the blood war, devils have been known to very often work on bringing the outland's hell gate town (the outlands has a gate town to each plane) as lawful evil as possible so that it eventually slips to avernus, then a new gate town has to be built, and once it's built they start the process again

these towns still exist on avernus, the most notable one being darkspine, which is expanded upon in the planes of law book, guide to hell book, and the fires of dis module

3e and late 2e also expanded on the bronze citadel, Bel's seat of power, a huge fortress city lined with fortifications, but i'm not sure what happened to it now as Bel ruled the layer in 3e and no longer does know

perhaps it's now under Zariel's control

last but not least, the kobold god Kortumlak lives on avernus, managing a realm called Draukari that both devils and demons avoid because the deity doesn't like the blood war spilling on his doorstep. The realm is a very large underground network of caverns and warrens, with an entrance not too far from the pillar of skulls (a ginormous tower of sentient demon skulls that can answer almost any questions for a price, another location from older editions, which is in turn not too far from Tiamat's lair). The realm might be hard to traverse for non small creatures since the caverns weren't designed for them, but includes three towns, called Nibellin, Frekstavik, Snjarll, which together boast a population of around 80k kobolds.

[white ravine]

I thought kurtulmak was on the material plane under a mountain

[pale stump]

the third and final god on avernus (in addition to Tiamat and Kurtumlak) is Bagryviek, a lesser hobgoblin god, but his realm is less of a town and more of a training ground for his hobgoblins legions, which often fight with the kobolds of Draukari

[white ravine]

Or...was it acheron...

[pale stump]

he is under a mountain, but said mountain isn't in the material plane

[white ravine]

Mm. Never knew it was hell though...opens possibilities now that im running DiA with a kobold...

[pale stump]

oh yeah, absolutely, use that!

Draukuri is covered in Planes of Law, On Hallowed Ground, Guide to Hell, Fires of Dis, and Fiendish Codex 2

[hazy mica]

Are the pentadrone creatures man made?

[unkempt merlin]

They are modrons, so... no not technically

Not made by mortals anyway

[white ravine]

Nah, they're made in Mechanus by Primus to enforce pure law

They're god-made

[hazy mica]

Welp…. Homebrew lore it is

Cause I want them to be little mechanical artificer helpers

[white ravine]

Well, they can be summoned

That, or you can simply build a mockery of one of them

[iron saffron]

There are already replica pentadrone and other modrons in Acquisitions Inc.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/360944-replica-pentadrone

[crude blaze]

There’s also always just reskinned autognomes

(Sorry, late to the party as usual)

[manic minnow]

I have a player in WDDH who is completely faceless, and I'm wondering just how used to something as weird as that would Waterdavians be?

Like would it be a "weird guy wonder what's up with that" thing or more of a "OH GOD GUARDS PUT THAT THING DOWN" thing

The character is a regular human. Just.... no face

[white ravine]

Mostly the latter, assuming some horrible doppleganger shenanigans

[manic minnow]

No he just got it stolen

You know how it is

[white ravine]

Important to remember you still need a face to live, unless you have some horrific magical component added to the equation

[manic minnow]

It's a fey thing, so his face was basically stolen in concept

He can do all the face stuff as if it was there, it's just not there

Not sure if someone with truesight would see it though...

[potent slate]

where would an artificer study to learn setting is Forgotten Realms, would quandrix work?

[magic jackal]

Quandrix is from the Strixhaven Setting, Forgotten Realms does not lorewise have the College of Strixhaven.

[unkempt merlin]

Quandrix isn't a FR thing yea

[potent slate]

;-;

so where would artifcer study?

[unkempt merlin]

In the Forgotten Realms there is Lanton as the easy answer, but Waterdeep and any number of Rock Gnome enclaves would work as well off the top of my head

[potent slate]

if anywhere

[lament current]

In the Forgotten Realms, the best bet would be somewhere like the island-nation of Lantan as they have a large artificer population. It's north of Chult.

[unkempt merlin]

The thing about artificers is they could largely learn at all thr same places wizards do

[potent slate]

okayy thank you both for you're answers ill check that out then, writing backstory so yeah :)

[lament current]

For other notable locations of artificers, the Imaskar Empire is a good one to look into.

[potent slate]

would it work if i said that my charcter went to lantan to study to become an artifcer

[lament current]

That seems reasonable to me.

[potent slate]

wait is Ravnica in Forgotten Realms?

[lament current]

No, it is its own setting entirely.

[potent slate]

;-; damit

what would be a good background for an artifcer ?

or a background that can basically work with everything is fine

[unkempt merlin]

Anything works

I'd suggest #character-discussion st this point though

[potent slate]

ah fair enough, thank you :)

[fiery axle]

Anyone know a Helm Temple in the FR? I need a place where my cleric was trained.

[iron saffron]

Which region/city?

[fiery axle]

Don't care

[iron saffron]

It does make a different as Faerun (I'm assuming you're there) is a big continent.

Well, there's the Cathedral of Helm in Helm's Hold in Sword Coast North with

[vital heron]

The temple in Waterdeep is called Helm's Hall

[runic totem]

Did the spellplague only affect toril?

If it didn't affect anywhere else, is there like a separate god and weave on every planet for magic

[sharp owl]

yes, the spellplague was limited to Toril and yes, some planes have their own deities of magic (not all planes have the Weave)

[runic totem]

So like eberron has a totally separate source of magic?

[sharp owl]

Magic behaves differently on Eberron to a degree, yes

(also, there's no need to ping someone with a reply to their message if it's the most recent message)

[runic totem]

And with spelljamming ships being able to travel between the planets, how well known are some of the other planets?

[sharp owl]

Planets or planes?

Either way, it depends on the setting

For example, spelljamming is moderately well known in the Sword Coast; spelljammers sometimes dock in Waterdeep for example so there would be knowledge of the other worlds in Realmspace

Also I think astronomy would be a thing, so sages with telescopes (or magical scrying) would be able to observe the other worlds in Realmspace

Knowledge about other planes would be much more limited

[fiery axle]

thx

[runic totem]

How often would people get to go on the spelljamming ships between planets? Is it like real life, only the richest of the rich?

Or like the best of the best in other cases

[unkempt merlin]

Planets or planes?

Cause jamming does both

[shrewd bobcat]

Anyone know what kind of names Arctic Dwarves would have? Like their naming structure and example of such?

[modest badger]

We don't have much information on them.
We know they call themselves "Innugaakalikurit" which gives us an idea of their phonics. Other words are Eyklak (bows), Gomwemk, Patatak, Snokkok (towns).

2e 'The Great Glacier' Has one Innugaakalikurit NPC: Johmm a male dwarf.

[white ravine]

Rich and powerful mostly. Spelljamming is costly, dangerous, and needs a lot of know-how to work

[grim siren]

While Cost of travel is not calculated that I can see in the War Captains Guide it does give you an Idea on the cost of running a Jammer.

A trained crew costs 6GP/mo per person.

So lets say you have 5 crew members who are NPCs.

That will run you 30GP/mo.

Then you have the cost of your ship. Let's say you are taking an old Squidship. One of good quality would be 25,000 GP. Let's assume that most captains cannot pay outright for their ship and get a loan from one of the many companies listed in the War Captains Guide. A two Torilian Year loan (24 months) with a 1,000 Gold Downpayment.

Most ports have a docking tax and insurance which comes out to around 5SP/ton. Our Squidship has 20 tons. So about 10/GP for taxes and insurance. Let's say you dock twice a month.

So we have a minimum cost of 1,050 GP per month to operate the Jammer.

If we are good and honest folk being a space ferry. And assuming an average size of a party being 4 players.

We can take on 5 passengers on a month long journey. And you want a healthy profit. Then a ticket would be around 400 GP per passenger.

Which to the people of most settings is a crap load of money.

This is a long winded way to agree with Xplosionman.

[runic totem]

Alright, thanks for the help

[grim siren]

no worries! for these settings WOTC has been reviving. You will always find older editions to be more helpful in the little things.

[shrewd bobcat]

Would you say they’re more Inuit inspired or Scandinavian?

I get the sense they’re somewhat a mix of the two

[modest badger]

Yeah I'd say def inspired by the inuit languages, but names like 'Johmm' seems more likely scandanavian based. There might be more in novels, but I don't have access to those.

[deep cipher]

I was curious, is there any more lore to the wild wolves of eastwood other then an encounter with poachers?

[grim siren]

Which setting are you referring to/

[deep cipher]

I'm not sure. I was trying to come up with a back story with wolves of the high forest and I found them. But it had very limited info on them. Only referenced them as an encounter with poachers.

[modest badger]

Which source or book did you get that from?

[vital heron]

Are you referring to this homebrew? https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/278360/The-Wild-Wolves-of-East-Wood--5E-Compatible It's not D&D lore.

[crude blaze]

Yeah, that’s probably just an adventure design to port into any setting, but otherwise written agnostically

[deep cipher]

Oh crap!!!! It's a homebrew 😦 not even lore

[vital heron]

Yeah it's compatible with Pathfinder too.

[deep cipher]

Can or could you still use that as lore or no? If it's compatible

Oh I just saw. Not DND lore. That makes me a bit sad. Haha

[vital heron]

Since we haven't read it, it's hard to say, but it sounds like it's trying to be generic, so any world with Wolves, Poachers and Woods will fit.

That's not the function of this channel though: this is for discussing the content of D&D Lore.

[deep cipher]

I'm trying to find more wolf pack on the high forest. Having trouble.

I'll keep on my search. Sorry for the wrong stuff thought I'd ask.

Lore* not more haha

[vital heron]

You aren't likely to find specific lore on a wolf pack, and it's not necessary to your players for there to be one there. The way we play TTRPGs is that you can control the world to suit what you want, you aren't confined to what is already written.

[deep cipher]

Ok I got you. Thank you

[nocturne sage]

Who else thinks they should ad more lore revolving shadar Kai’s and the raven queen tbh I need more 3e and 3.5 had decent lore but then kinda drops off at 5 like come on

[zenith dust]

4e has shadarkai lore

[crude blaze]

Kinda tough to associate them with the Raven Queen any more than they already do, now that shadar-kai are setting agnostic and the RQ isn’t

[nocturne sage]

I guess you have a point 😂 5e just don’t do her justice

[nocturne sage]

Yeah but it tapers I feel like they could just add more

[white ravine]

A lot of lore was abandoned in 5e, not even retconned.

I mean, look at any of the upper planes

You get 1-2 paragraphs from the DMG, a few snippets out of various celestial descriptions, and thats pretty much it

[storm dagger]

To be fair the upper planes never tended to get a ton of attention.

They are not nessisarly abandoned. Planescape is coming after all.

[white ravine]

I mean true, but also after spelljammer:

HAHAHAHA

[storm dagger]

Why

Spelljammer was short which was it's big problem

Planescape is not as short.

[crude blaze]

I’m okay with new Spelljammer, I just don’t care for the fact that I had to spend more for it

[white ravine]

Spelljammer hacked apart a lot of old lore and then also tried adding a bunch of half-baked concepts, I expect nothing from planescape and still feel like ill be disappointed

[crude blaze]

Spelljammer lore is gonna be dependent on the worlds a DM chooses to use at their table, so I was pretty confident right off the bat they were gonna leave it a bit more open

[storm dagger]

I also liked Spelljammer, my big issue is that the book was too short for the content it had.

I liked the ships, but did not feel they had to spend over half the setting book on them.

[white ravine]

One of many valid complaints tbh

[storm dagger]

Planescape is not going to have that issue via not having ships.

Speaking of the set went for sale so we can what's in the box
https://cdn-prod.scalefast.com/public/assets/img/resized/wizardsofthecoast-dnd-beyond/87dc4900b8c3e6df7ef67fc846fd00a7_1920_KR.png

Looks like Shemeshka will be part of it.

[crude blaze]

$50 digitally holy crap

[white ravine]

Im gonna see how these reviews stack up and see how hot that dumpster fire is gonna burn before I look at the lore it adds

[iron saffron]

5E Spelljammer made me hold off on future books (I had already preordered 5E Dragonlance so it was too late to cancel at that point)

I'm glad I still have my 2E Spelljammer because 5E Spelljammer was missing a lot...

[unkempt merlin]

The classic "we want new lore but we also want all old lore to stay exactly the same" never changes

[iron saffron]

Eh, every edition changes/retcons the lore (I'm looking at you 4E)

5E just doesn't offer much new lore because of WotC's 5E design philosophy of "You DMs make it up"

[crude blaze]

I’m okay with the design philosophy being “here are some plot hooks and adventure seeds, have at it”

[unkempt merlin]

Yes, however people are far more... aggressive... to say the least. About the lore changes/retcons/etc in 5e than they were in 3.X/4 for example.

[deep cipher]

The wolf of the forest. Is that DND lore?

[unkempt merlin]

As mentioned earlier, that's not a specific thing in the manner you seem to be asking

[deep cipher]

Ok my bad haha. Just trying to be lore friendly.

[iron saffron]

Lore deals with the history of a campaign setting (in the case of this channel, official lore of official campaign settings).

Wolves living in a forest is the ecology of a creature in a specific ecology. This is something you would look up in the Monster Manual or consult with your DM.

[deep cipher]

I understand ok. I can see how my questions have no relevance in here haha. I applogize

[grim siren]

It might just be my experience, but the aggressiveness, with the lore changes in fifth edition, at least when it comes to the forgotten realms is more so about how lore has been straight up abandoned rather than changed. The biggest outcry was definitely with 4th edition. Because Wizards of the coast felt like they were on a warpath to destroy the setting as quickly as possible. A decision that many players and the authors who helped keep the setting alive hated every step of the way.

Also, the uptick and aggressiveness that people might be seeing with 5th edition could also be correlated that 5th edition is the most popular edition of the game and the most online version of the game.

[lament current]

It’s kind of petty but I’m disappointed Morte is the one being the “author” of the book of monsters, as there’s already a much better character in Planescape lore for this purpose: Xanxost.

[grim siren]

It's all marketing like putting Minsc and Boo on Spelljammer when they are actually Forgotten Realms characters.

[iron saffron]

I loved Morte from Planescape: Torment

[grim siren]

At least WotC got a setting appropriate character this time lmao

[iron saffron]

Minsc and Boo should have died long ago...

[grim siren]

But you see Old Man Wotc wants to have cake and eat it too.

[iron saffron]

Yes, I want to eat my cake over the corpses of Minsc and Boo.

(I've found them annoying in the Baldur's Gate games)

WotC is just lazy by digging up old 2E and 3E NPCs to reuse them for 5E timeline

[grim siren]

"We are advancing the timeline 100 years!"

"Oh god that why didn't they like that? Marketing told us they would like that? Oh the characters are dead....."

"They Uhhh got petrified!"

Classic WotC moment.

[white ravine]

Thats been my big thing, im fine with WOTC removing old lore if they actually replace it with something meaningful

But they dont seem to understand the second half of that

[iron saffron]

Was Xanxost the "author" of the previous Planescape books?

[white ravine]

Fizbans? HOO! Great book. It actually bothered with replacing lore instead of gutting it

[iron saffron]

I wasn't a fan of the "One World" lore they added.

(I'm ignoring that at my table)

[white ravine]

In fairness, its a dragon book written by dragons

[iron saffron]

True.

[white ravine]

Of course its gonna be biased to hell and back

[grim siren]

My favorite was unintentional. Cultures like Mulhorand and really close analogs to earth make me uncomfy.

What was the 4e answer?

Kill them all or enslave them.

Bruh

[iron saffron]

4E FR lore was a mess that was thankfully mostly retconned in 5E FR lore.

[white ravine]

I like using the first world elegy as the belief dragons have and the fastest way to offend them by refuting it

[lament current]

Him? Not for all the books mind you, but he was the author of the Faces of Evil: The Fiends and The Inner Planes and it felt like a good time to bring him back. Getting a mostly lawful Slaadi helps with what Planescape is about to. That is, that the power of belief powers the city.

[grim siren]

4e FR was like not even negligent it felt malicious

[iron saffron]

Yes, I have the Faces of Evil book

[white ravine]

Im sure the giant book (if it has anything beyond nuking the ordning because i am positive theyre gonna do that, damn you wotc) will have a similar first world elegy-esque story

If not, oh well

[lament current]

I don’t think they’d do that, if only because one of their hardcovers is very explicitly about this plot.

[iron saffron]

I'm meh about future 5E books for various reasons.

[white ravine]

Maybe, its a hunch if nothing else

That or the first chip off the block of them phasing it out

[iron saffron]

Hopefully they add more giant types. I've been going over my older editions' Monster Manual/Compendiums and there are a lot of other giants that 5E hasn't touched yet.

[white ravine]

Yeah

[grim siren]

It's not at all related but I did break out into laughter at

"Planescape has more pages than Spelljammer!"

To be immediately followed up with.

"And we have increased our font size."

[white ravine]

Id kill for a proper titan stat block

[iron saffron]

4E had giants and titans (as in giant giants)

[white ravine]

Yeah

[lament current]

As long as they don’t give the Lady of Pain a statblock, I have a little bit of hope.

[iron saffron]

Hill giant and hill titan.

[white ravine]

Oh god if they do

There are gonna be RIOTS.

[grim siren]

Nah they won't. They wouldn't give the Dark Lords of Ravenloft stats

[iron saffron]

I was so disappointed with them giving Auril statblocks.

[white ravine]

Yeah...

[grim siren]

Not because it would be off theme. It's because they don't wanna I bet

[white ravine]

The Auril one was cool but really weird.

[iron saffron]

They saved pages (which means money) by not doing that!

[grim siren]

Hooray

[crude blaze]

But the reasoning behind that decision is good

[grim siren]

I never said it was bad.

[iron saffron]

I thought it was lazy.

"DMs you make it up"

[grim siren]

I did too. But I found a lot about ravenloft lazy

[iron saffron]

Why do I bother buying the books then?

[crude blaze]

They left it that way so that the party can theoretically face the Dark Lord at any level

[iron saffron]

Thank God I have my 2E Ravenloft boxed sets still...

[crude blaze]

That’s why they suggest a statblock the Dark Lord could utilize, but left it open so that the DM can adjust to whatever the party’s ideal CR would be

[grim siren]

Yeah I am getting real tired of facing world ending and eldritch threats at sub level 14

[iron saffron]

3.5E had the advancement mechanic to increase toughness of monsters.

[white ravine]

Peer pressure

[grim siren]

My biggest disappointment with Ravenloft is it felt deceitful? IG to say there are 30 domains and over 50% felt they were written in an afternoon.

[white ravine]

I just wish they were given the proper weight

Any demon lord, including juiblex, can stump a level 20 party without proper equipment

[grim siren]

That is why the Ravenloft Tomes on DMSGUILD just complete crap all over Wotc. 800 pages of Ravenloft deep dives.

[crude blaze]

I thing they did mention somewhere during their promo circuit that some would be in greater detail than others

[grim siren]

Yeah but some are also just a paragraph

[iron saffron]

Well, I'm sure WotC knew that 3rd parties would fill in the blank with details on DMs Guild (and get a cut of the 50% royalties). Win-win for them.

[crude blaze]

So I don’t think it was deceitful so much as maybe… selective hearing?

[grim siren]

Like, it's not technically wrong but it felt bad

[white ravine]

I didnt buy spelljammer, and I wont be buying the other books until WOTC shows some level of competence

[iron saffron]

2E and 3E had a boatload of splatbooks (too many actually) and WotC went the opposite direction, relying on the 3rd party/community to do their legwork for them to fill in missing rules and lore.

[white ravine]

I spend more time in older edition books for content than 5e by now

[grim siren]

If it wasn't for DMsGuild my interest in 5e would have died a long time ago

[iron saffron]

Same. I go back to my older books for inspiration and monsters (my players have only played 5E so they can't meta)

[white ravine]

Oops, all owned by wotc, no escape!

[grim siren]

Some of those writers put out consistently better work than WotC for cheaper. In PDF, and some in print.

[iron saffron]

Well, when you have the original authors/designers with decades of experience like Ed Greenwood and Keith Baker of course you'll get better quality than the stuff 5E has put out so far.

[white ravine]

Who knew the writers can write

[magic jackal]

I just abandoned official DND settings for KoboldPress lol

They write very good lore

[crude blaze]

Idk I never cared for their lore

[grim siren]

Wotc used to write good lore

Well

Wotc used to write lore lmao

[white ravine]

I die by FR

[grim siren]

There are dozens of us

[white ravine]

I always feel like im finding new stuff every day

I recently found out of a non-demon lord bigger than a Balor.

That was a trip

[iron saffron]

Same, the FR wiki is a deep rabbit hole of lore.

[grim siren]

And with Ed Greenwoods discord server there is a place to get even more from the man himself

[ebon otter]

So, I read the description for Spelljammer, and I have to ask... Is the D&D Astral Plane basically just outer space?

[grim siren]

Yesnt

[iron saffron]

Oh he has a Discord server?!

[white ravine]

Wait, he responds directly to questions?!

[grim siren]

Yes he does. Not every question and you have to be a patron on his Patreon

[white ravine]

DAMMIT.

[grim siren]

Half of the realms authors are there too

[white ravine]

Wildspace is outer space, the astral plane is more the realm of psychics and gods.

[grim siren]

I think it's the 7$ tier

But under the free to get access to lore posts, that are really long transcripts of every single one of his videos. Behind the scenes footage and more.

At the max here which I think is $100. You get to do a monthly live q&A with him and if he can answer it not blocked by an NDA he will

[white ravine]

Ooh... don't tempt me

[grim siren]

It is one of the more worthwhile patreons that i have

[iron saffron]

Not really.
Eh... 5E changed it from the phlogistan to the Astral Sea. However, the Astral Plane/Sea is a transition plane that connects the Material Plane to the Outer Plane. The phlogistan (a gaseous void) and Wild Space are the "outer space" that connects the stellar systems (formally Crystal Spheres) of the Material Plane.

[ebon otter]

Ah, alright then.

[magic jackal]

I'd compare the Phlogiston more to like, the Aether of Treasure Planet, and "Space" is the wildspace within Spheres.

[iron saffron]

(I personally ignore the 5E Spelljammer Astral Sea change)

The Astral Sea thing I found lazy on WotC's part... "Hey, it has 'sea' in it!" and ignored the established lore that the Astral Plane/Sea goes to the Outer Planes rather than other parts of the Material Plane.

[grim siren]

Last about Ed's discord server. It is free to join. You don't have to commit to a patreon to actually be a part of the server itself.

[magic jackal]

I personally like the Astral Sea more than Phlogiston and it's easier to explain to newbies but I find removing Crystal Spheres to be a really bad change.

It raises more questions, answers none, and makes the world incredibly inconsistent for actually no benefit.

At least the astral sea while inconsistent is an interesting setting.

[iron saffron]

I would have no trouble of them retconning out all the fiery / anti-magic aspect of the Phlogistan.

[unkempt merlin]

Other than the implications that the spheres were either exploded or removed by some entit(ies) in universe

[grim siren]

Yeah it's super easy to retcon lore. When I run spelljammer campaigns or Planescape games I put Eberron in with everyone else.

[magic jackal]

Would be a cool implication, but that strikes me more as headcanon because decisions to remove or retcon lore in 5e recently are typically just "we're ignoring this/this is how it always has been what are you talking about" rather than a new development.

[unkempt merlin]

Well that and the fact that the Library of the Spheres still exists

[crude blaze]

Pretty sure it’s not a headcanon that there were crystal spheres in-lore in 5E

[unkempt merlin]

Also crystal spheres are mentioned in 5e

In Doomspace

[iron saffron]

Were they mentioned in earlier 5E books?

[unkempt merlin]

Only place they could've been iirc is the dmg, and they aren't there

[iron saffron]

I've only teased my players with Spelljammer by having them teleport up to a small Tear of Selune that was used as an outpost by githyanki to retrieve a spelljamming helm (they thought the "helm" was a "helmet" and confused the githyanki they interrogated when asking where the "helmet" was)

[storm dagger]

Demon Lords are not Ravenloft Dark Lords

It’s explicitly a thing that some Dark Lords are unimpressive in a fight

[unkempt merlin]

Sounds like a mixup of Dark Lords and Dark Powers happened above

[storm dagger]

Dragonlance, Radiant Citadel and Golden Vault were component and good products in my opinion

[storm dagger]

There is lots of lore. The Realms just seem to be on a bit of a break.

[crude blaze]

It’s funny because more often than not the only times I see people complain about 5E “not having lore” is either because they want it to as expansive as it was in prior editions, or because they just don’t like the new lore.

[grim siren]

I mean SCAG compared to even 4e FR guide was weak sauce.

[molten osprey]

that's why it's easier to just use the settings as they were. My current campaign is Greyhawk year 800, and the gameI play in is FR year 1375

plenty of material if you have the 2e and 3e setting books or can find them

[iron saffron]

2E and 3E had a large amount of lore because TSR/WotC had expanded the lore from other mediums such as novels and comics. I'm surprised WotC (with pressure from Hasbro) to expend back into novels/comics since Hasbro wants D&D to be a "lifestyle brand" rather than just a TTRPG.

[molten osprey]

even w/o the novels and comics, look at the WoTC printed FR stuff just for 3e. You had a good main book, then all the areas had their own book. Shining South, City of Splendors, Unapproachable East, etc

[iron saffron]

Thank God for those because I'm dipping back into the 3E books for references since my campaign has moved away from the Sword Coast to the Chult Peninsula and Halruaa.

[storm dagger]

Tomb of Annilahtion has a bunch of Chult stuff.

[iron saffron]

Yes I know but the PCs aren't going into the jungles of Chult but will be sailing around the peninsula to the Isle of Dread (yes, I know it's originally on Oerth...).

[white ravine]

The wall is in the fugue plane, surrounding the Crystal Spire that Kelemvor judges the souls of the dead in

[runic totem]

What's the point of it tho

[white ravine]

And to that extent, the city of his followers that live with him

Protection mostly

[runic totem]

Is it to stop the demons stealing souls or

[white ravine]

Precisely

[iron saffron]

Kelemvor has made a deal with the devils that they can try to negotiate with godless souls to see if they want to go to Hell with them. Demons try to outright steal unclaimed souls.

Souls are currency for fiends to be used in the Blood War. Devils use mortal souls to create new devils. Demons consume souls.

Being an "atheist" in D&D doesn't necessary you don't believe in gods but you don't follow/worship one.

[runic totem]

And also, why is Faerûn mentioned specifically in the wiki page? It says "The majority of souls who died from the lands of Faerûn had dedicated their lives to particular power, their patron deity. When these souls were taken by the representative to their deity's divine realm, they were transformed into petitioners."

What about the rest of the planet

[white ravine]

No particular reason, afaik. Works the same anywhere else

[iron saffron]

Because most of the Forgotten Realms campaign is set in the continent of Faerun.

[runic totem]

Does it work the same in other planets? Or does eberron (for example) have like their own planes and gods and afterlives? They've got separate magic apparently

[iron saffron]

There were campaign setting boxed sets dedicated to other parts of Toril but they're barely touched in 5E.

You're asking a lot in that question. Can you be more specific?

Eberron has its own cosmology and AFAIK is separate from the other D&D campaign worlds (Toril, Oerth, Athas, etc)

[runic totem]

Is everything the same in other planets? They have separate magic, so I'm wondering if they have a whole other set of planes and all

[iron saffron]

If you want to know more about Eberron then ask rather than the broadstroke question of asking about other worlds' cosmology.

[runic totem]

Wait is eberron not another crystal sphere? I thought it was a few away from toril

Got mixed up, meant the other planets in the forgotten realms

Other crystal spheres

[iron saffron]

The official campaign settings of Toril, Athas, Oerth, etc are in the same Material Plane separated by their own Crystal Spheres (pre-5E Spelljammer)

Eberron is in its own thing. I know next to nothing about Eberron lore so someone else has to answer that.

[runic totem]

Eberron was just an example of one of the crystal spheres, which was entirely wrong

[iron saffron]

Realmspace has many planets in its crystal sphere. Toril is the third planet from it sun.

Read up on the known crystal spheres:
https://spelljammer.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_Spelljammer_crystal_spheres

[runic totem]

Oh, in that case before even talking about other crystal spheres, is everything the same in the other planets in the solar system? Same weave, gods, etc

Did they also fall apart during the spellplague

[runic totem]

Alright, will do

[stuck nimbus]

Kind of a weird but obvious question but how are Half Orcs made?

[white ravine]

Human + Orc

[kind remnant]

Is there a Faerun/Forgotten Realms map that actually shows the different biomes of different regions accurately? Almost every map I look at that trys to depicts things differently, some of which almost look completely green and forestry while others might look almost completely deserty. I'm still kinda new to DnD so this is all very confusing lol

[iron saffron]

Which part of Faerun are you looking at? The continent is quite big.

Well, if you look at Earth (minus the cities) it's either forest or desert...

[kind remnant]

I'm not even 100% sure myself lol. I'm trying to find a place for my Yuan-Ti to come from that'd be decently lore accurate and very foreign to where most games take place, but is a desert region that would have a strong Yuan-Ti presence? If possible.

[iron saffron]

The Sword Coast is like the Pacific Northwest (think Washington State).

Yuan-ti are probably from the jungles of Chult.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Yuan-ti
Homeland(s):
Chultan Peninsula, Serpent Hills, Hlondeth

[kind remnant]

So what I'm trying to find out by the maps is if any of those places are in or around a more desert based biome

I seen one map show the surrounding area of Serpent Hills as a forest and one that showed it more as a desert, which is why I am confused

For an example

[iron saffron]

Not really on the map of the continent. You have to zoom in more to the regions.

[iron saffron]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/ab/WesternHeartlands5e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180730023733

[storm dagger]

Nah the point was that Myrkul was very mean. (I could not call him anything worse)

[kind remnant]

Yeah see in that map it looks more like woodlands or even fields and plains

[iron saffron]

That's why I said you need to find a map that's more regional

[storm dagger]

I recall the Serpent Hills being more marsh

[kind remnant]

The problem I'm having is finding one that is accurate to the lore? I found a great map on Etsy, but almost everything looks like a desert on that map, though it does show bits of green woodland and grassland. I don't think it's lore accurate though

[storm dagger]

This is the most recent map
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/ab/WesternHeartlands5e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180730023733

[iron saffron]

It's probably easier to look up the area description in the FR wiki then trying to find a map with the accurate biome.

[iron saffron]

I just linked that earlier above...

[storm dagger]

Ahh sorry did not see it

[iron saffron]

Rule of thumb for Faerun: the further up you go, it gets colder and more artic. The stuff in the middle is temperate forest unless you go further east or south then it becomes more desert.

Again, there are more detailed regional maps but you have to search for them if you know which region you're looking for.

[storm dagger]

it says the Serpent hills are rocky wet red clay hills

[kind remnant]

Yeah I was thinking of my character being more from the south or east but again, I want it to match up with where Yuan-Ti may actually have a strong presence. A spot I'm interested in is the Calm Desert, North of the Shining sea which is still close to the jungles of Chult. Seems like it'd be regionally close enough to where the main Yuan-Ti houses are that maybe there would be Yuan-Ti operating there?

[storm dagger]

with lots of underground areas

[kind remnant]

The character design of my guy almost looks Egyptian hence my focus on a desert Yuan-Ti origin

[storm dagger]

Yuan Ti largely operate anywhere that is either jungly or arid.

[kind remnant]

You think Thindol or Calimshan would fit?

[storm dagger]

Yes.

[iron saffron]

Sure.

[storm dagger]

And they are not exulsive to those areas. There was a group of them that laired near 10 towns in Icewind Dale (Albit far underground in a area heated by a volcano.)

But these are listed as their preferred habitat

DESERT FOREST SWAMP

[kind remnant]

👍 Awesome. Thanks guys, I'll do some more digging around those areas. Just needed somewhere to start looking

[snow sonnet]

Im sorry if this is like a really dumb question but is there a place I can read a quick premise abt each of the official dnd lore settings just to get a solid premise idea
(ive never delved into it as I always run full homebrew plots so ifueqrdfsyugjbf,j)