dnd-lore

[mellow ferry]

Demogorgon fights everything he can get away with fighting. Sometimes, because he has two distinct personalities, he fights against himself.
His former lover, Shami-Amourae, was thrown into a prison layer of the Abyss for daring to try and manipulate his personalities for her own gain.

As for other demon lords, he only really cares about Orcus and Graz'zt. He can defeat one of them, but whenever he tries to, the other attempts to take advantage of the distraction, and Demogorgon can't take on both at the same time.

[candid siren]

I have a question, I know kelemvor is against undeath but in my setting he's still "settling in" to being a god and is still a bit unsure of his role.
Would he create a death knight? as a punishment

[mellow ferry]

A couple other good-aligned, anti-undeath gods (e.g. Tyr and Ilmater) have used undeath as punishments for their servants and/or to make (temporary) use of the dead as tools to achieve a certain goal, but Kelemvor's anti-undead stance always seemed to be more fanatical.

[crude blaze]

Yeah, of all the FR gods to put aside their personal stances for the idea of having a goal accomplished, Kelemvor doesn’t seem the type to me.

[raven needle]

interesting. one of my players just informed me that they want to play an uthgardt barbarian. the first adventure includes destroying a gulthias tree. should I present it as a moral dilemma for them?

[broken pecan]

Give them a choice, but if they do, they feel very guilty abt it, and can't move past the shame

[raven needle]

the problem is that I don't see they have much choice. the tree isn't going to stop throwing twig blights at the party

I'll probably just make it clear that it is in fact a living tree. if they accepts that and feel guilt, I'll play it that way. if they rationalize that it is an abomination of nature, then they don't. the best part is that the eventual bbeg is trapped and is the cause of the gulthias tree growing there. killing the tree sets the bbeg free. so... even MORE guilt for the poor barbarian

[steep drum]

I have some questions regarding dragonborn, specifically for a character I'm creating, if anyone could answer them.

[runic cave]

Watchu got

[steep drum]

Well for starters, are Dragonborn surnames the names of their clans?

[runic cave]

No, their clan name is put before their normal name

[steep drum]

So their first name is their clan name?

[runic cave]

*well

They have a name and a clan name

The clan name comes first but it would take the place of what we would call a surname

[steep drum]

So okay let's grab a name from Fantasy Name Generator: Klosten Sogwen

[runic cave]

At least in FR

[steep drum]

Klosten is the clan name?

[runic cave]

Yes

[iron saffron]

That's not unlike East Asian names where family names comes first before the indvidual name.

[runic cave]

I can’t comment on Dray

[steep drum]

Do they usually go by their first or last name in casual company?

Guessing if it's similar to Asia then the clan name is what most people would call them by.

[runic cave]

They go by clan names

Unless it’s with their family, then they go by nicknames

[steep drum]

Okay, next question: what would be the usual course of action for a Dragonborn if their clan was all but wiped out and scattered to the winds?

All but their immediate family, I mean.

Er, let me explain that a bit better because I do know that normal family dynamics don't exist in Dragonborn culture.

[runic cave]

They do?

[runic cave]

Probably try and reunite their clan?

If a dragon did it they would kill the dragon, they hate dragons

[steep drum]

I was lead to believe that Dragonborn pair with a mate, have a hatchling, then that child is raised by the parent who is the same gender as the hatchling.

[runic cave]

That’s true

[steep drum]

So they'd basically do everything they could to try and find them? I think that would work, actually.

[runic cave]

I feel like that’s normal tho, that’s like my parent’s divorce

Is that not normal?

[runic cave]

Yeah, they hold their clan above all else

[runic cave]

You could also go for “finding glory for their clan”

[steep drum]

Basically my character's clan was wiped out when she was little more than a hatchling. Her only real connection to her clan was her mother, who continued to raise her as she would have if the clan was still around.

But the idea that much of her childhood was spent on the road with her mother trying to find the remnants her clan could work for her backstory.

[runic cave]

That works

[steep drum]

The basic character archetype I have in mind is a prideful and egotistical, but more self-pride than pride for her clan. I was initially thinking of doing something involving a split from her clan either through her own choice or through exile. But upon learning more about dragonborn I realize that the former wouldn't work and the latter would likely result in wounded pride more than anything else.

But then I realized that if her clan was wiped out before she was barely even old enough to remember it, and her only real link to it is second-hand knowledge of her mother, she'd have somewhat less of an attachment to them. She'd still have plenty of pride for where she came from for sure, but having spent an entire childhood looking for them with nothing to show for it and the search eventually claiming her mother's life, I'd imagine that much of that pride would probably be reflected inward, especially if she does gradually start to believe that she might be all that's left.

Also I heard that the scale color of a dragonborn doesn't necessarily reflect the kind of breath they have because it's more about ancestry than physical appearance. Is this true?

[runic cave]

It’s a toss up, depends on Edition. In onednd your breath weapon directly correlates to your color

[steep drum]

A video I watched on it which covered 5e lore pretty extensively indicated that it has nothing to do with scale color.

[white ravine]

"Because of thousands of years of interbreeding, the scales of a dragonborn's hide were scarlet, gold, rust, ochre, bronze, or brown in hue, though a few dragonborn with an stronger draconic heritage had scales resembling those of true dragons. The color of their scales bore little correlation to a dragonborn's draconic heritage, however."

[steep drum]

Ye, that sounds about what I heard. Thinking of giving my character a bronze complexion, so that works!

[white ravine]

[marsh pier]

I have a question in regard to the elves of faerun. What is their relation with the feywild? Do they think it's a sacred place ect

[mellow ferry]

For the eladrin subrace, it's their ancestral home. For the rest of the elven subraces, enough time has passed that a disconnect has formed and the feywild isn't particularly important to them any more. Arvandor holds a far greater significance for them.

[dusky whale]

What exactly does Lolth want of her followers? Just sheer chaos or is there a purpose/reason? An ultimate goal?

[iron saffron]

Worship like all gods. Gods get their divine powers from the faith and worship of their followers. The more followers, the more divine power (and increase in divine rank).

Lolth was once Araushnee, the lesser elven goddess of destiny and artisans, and Corellon Larethian's wife. Eventually she grew ambitious and tried to have Corellon murdered with Gruumsh's help. Because of her treachery, Corellon exiled her from the Seldarine (the elven pantheon) with their two children, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee (the latter did so willingly in hopes to redeem her mother and the demonically corrupted dark elves who became the drow).

[white ravine]

Going off what oldman said, she orders her followers to essentially 'take over the surface world' while simultaneously sabotaging their efforts. After all, once the drow take over the surface they wont need her help anymore and she'll lose her power.

[storm dagger]

Power

[storm dagger]

This is only the FR background

[iron saffron]

So?

[scarlet sierra]

I think this is the right channel for this question…

Is there a Cleric subclass that has vaguely any ties to a Paladin and/or Warlock one? Or vice versa?

Meaning, I guess, same pantheon?

(Is this more of a #1045165827068002374 thing?)

[iron saffron]

A #1045165827068002374 thing

[scarlet sierra]

Ok.

[shell gale]

Are shadar Kai and drow pretty much the same?

[iron saffron]

No

Shadar Kai are elves who now live in the Shadowfell.

[runic cave]

Shader kai are like anti eladrin

Drow are underground elves

[shell gale]

ah so like...legit dark elves? kk

trying to find a mini that fits and there seems to be only one official shadar kai mini xD

so I may just go elf lol

[runic cave]

Shadar Kai are pale but other than that look like “normal elves”

[stuck breach]

also rather eamciated and gaunt

[ebon holly]

shadar kai are from the shadow fell. those who live there all their lives usually seem devoid of emotion, at least visibly

contrasting the eladrin, whose emotions govern some of their abilities and are often super expressive

[eager bay]

Where is generally the divide between high and wood elves in the "standard" D&D settings? Those being Greyhawk, Mystara, and FR

@cunning girder

[raven needle]

what do you mean?

[eager bay]

In the sense of why the two subraces coexist and where they wound up separating

[iron saffron]

Wood elves are attuned to nature (think Legolas). Similarly wild elves (aka grgach)) are even more deeply part of their natural surrounds (think environmental hippies).

High elves tend to live in cities (think Galadriel and Celeborn)

[raven needle]

they don't really coexist any more than high elves and drow co-exist. They're separate subraces because they lead different lives

[eager bay]

Damn, forgot I can't post pics here, but generally the divide be between the elves who took the trip to Valinor during the Years of the Trees and those who didn't, and then their descendants.

[zenith dust]

and in tolkien it really is more cultures than "subraces"

they're much more mythological than the biological way people tend to treat races in D&D

[raven needle]

it's like hill dwarves and mountain dwarves. there's not really a distinction other than that hill dwarves live in hills (and have for generations) and mountain dwarves live in mountains. the distinct lifestyle and culture that arise from living in these different environments is the primary difference between them. in the case of elves, wood, high and drow are all descendents of the eladrin. they just made different choices on where and how to live. just like dwarves.

[eager bay]

Maybe I am kinda complaining unneededly, what happens eventually when you over-analyze

[eager bay]

Now that you say that, that explains everything. It's the biological way that tends to create problems

[oblique scarab]

Do vampires need to poop?

[iron saffron]

They're undead so they don't need to eat food, hence, no need to poop.

[oblique scarab]

Where does the blood go?

[iron saffron]

Are you going to continue with these inane questions?

Ask your DM.

[oblique scarab]

I am the DM

[iron saffron]

Ask yourself then.

[spark haven]

It's pretty simple. Do you intend to maintain the conservation of mass and energy? If so, everybody poops something somehow. If not, there's no hard rules on what anyone must do.

[oblique scarab]

That's a good answer thank you

I think since strahd doesn't have toilets, he probably uses chamber pots and throws everything out the window

[fierce pike]

Which of the standard PHB languages would you consider to be a fantasy world's equivalent to Latin?

[iron saffron]

Common because Latin was the universal language at its peak during the European Middle Ages and its use by the Roman Catholic Church.

[raven needle]

none? there's no latin in faerun

[runic cave]

Common, old man is right

[raven needle]

latin wasn't spoken by commoners in medieval europe

latin was the language of the church and intellectuals. it wasn't common parlance

[obsidian gate]

not sure there is an equivalent to latin at all

[grim dagger]

Draconic maybe in older editions where it was magic-related.

[obsidian gate]

oh yeah, probably a lot of magic texts in draconic

[eager bay]

Yep, and "literacy" technically meant "bilingual," since it meant being able to read and write Latin, not English, French, German, or whichever vernacular

[raven needle]

that was kinda my point. latin wasn't the language of "commoners" in medieval Europe. in fact, Latin wasn't even the language of commoners in most of the Roman Empire

[shrewd bobcat]

Would you say that a Half Shadar Kai elf would also be held by the Shadowfell curse?

[white ravine]

To an extent. The shadowfell curse is sort of an advanced form of apathy, so a half shadar kai would probably be a decent bit stone faced but otherwise be okay

[shrewd bobcat]

Actually, I was referring to the curse of being bound to the Shadowfell and cursed to return if they died on the mortal plane

[shrewd bobcat]

I want to play a Shadar Kai who's cheerful in spite of their curse

[white ravine]

Ohhh...

Hmmmm...as for that, I'd speculate you'd feel sick for a time but would slowly be able to adjust back after a few months. Going back into the shadowfell however would rapidly undo that adjustment.

[mint ravine]

Ask your dm, the concept sounds cool. If the lore doesn’t cover it to the extent you need it to then do what makes you happy

[white ravine]

A cheery shadar kai is all fun and games until they get hugged by a lonely...

[spice moat]

Would a sorcerer casting with intelligence be a big deal for most DMs?

[white ravine]

Ehhhh...for me it would be but I feel you could make an argument

[spice moat]

Cuz ive got a sorcerer character idea that in no bloody hell could be charismatic

[spice moat]

Well, im kinda reffering to that the character understands and uses his powers not through intuition and expierience but through analysis and carefull introspection

Also known as autism

Lul

[white ravine]

As much as i'd give brownie points on that end, sorcerers and wizards deviate based on the way they cast

I wont go into wizards youve heard it a million times

But sorcerers use charisma since their magic hinges on their force of will, ie their charisma

You can be socially inept but if you got a big heart thats 100% charisma

One could even argue autism would IMPROVE charisma rather than detract it.

Food for thought, at least.

[spice moat]

I mean I see your point but slapping together social interaction capabilities and understanding and control of inner self just hurts brain

I mean the best way to fix it imo would be to introduce another stat called will

But u know, that's some massive changes

[white ravine]

Yyyyes and no. The skills for charisma generally cover the talky-talky bits. If you have high charisma and lack charisma skills, you could bumble and blush your way through a conversation by sheer like-ability

Though for sheer willpower, thatd fall on the charisma saving throw since thats how well you can stand fast when trying to be controlled

[spice moat]

Sadly, with my experience people with autistic tendencies are hardly likeable

[white ravine]

Eh, its subjective honestly

[spice moat]

I know, that's why i called it my experience

[white ravine]

As for intelligence sorcerer though i can see it work for say...aberrant, or maybe psychic types as a whole

[spice moat]

my idea for his source of power is that he is bound directly to some evil entity from the fire plane due to a curse laid on his father

And basically most of his source related power capabilities would make him risk loosing control

[spice moat]

Im pretty much it's most similar to a wild magic one

But the idea is that he can cast spells without a physical focus but whenever he draws upon his natural powers directly he can lose control, so he effectively is a wizard that instinctively uses himself as a casting focus

[spice moat]

Emm, is it OP or smthin?

[mint ravine]

CHA is the "best" casting stat for multiclassing purposes, so using INT is makes your character "worse"

it should not be a big deal. usually on this topic people suggest forbidding multiclassing, but I personally think that even that is ok.

it breaks nothing, apart from some edge cases

[raven needle]

this seems more like a convo for #1045165827068002374 ?

[spice moat]

Fair enough

[stuck breach]

Making Int your casting stat as a sorcerer would make it better if you then intended to multiclass with wizard, tho

[scarlet sierra]

With that reasoning, you could make a good argument for them being a constitution caster.

[spice moat]

well, kinda, the idea is that its a merge but only in that he can also use a spellbook to note spells although its stupidly time consuming to ise it cuz he's blind

[toxic grove]

I’m working on ‘The backstory’ and I need either a magical item or potion that turns me from ‘Hellboy’ Tiefling to a frail, older Tiefling.. any suggestions?

[iron saffron]

This isn't the channel for character development. This is for official D&D lore.

Ask in #1045165827068002374

[raven needle]

potion of longevity gone wrong?

[toxic grove]

Apologies and appreciation for your patience and guidance

[white ravine]

Constitution doesnt hold sway over force of will, especially given the situations where charisma and constitution come into play

[north bear]

Are there novels I can read about famous D&D mages in lore, such as Bigby, Mordenkainen, or Volo?

[stuck breach]

nope

There are D&D novels, just not about those guys

[iron saffron]

I believe there were a couple 2E Greyhawk adventures featuring them.

[hybrid sigil]

Wizard of Earthsea. dont argue with me. read it.

[north bear]

don’t know why i’d argue with you over that haha. I’ll check it out. thanks!

[hybrid sigil]

^ well, maybe not you, but someone here probably will 😄

[raven needle]

well, the obvious reason to argue with doggo is that it has nothing to do with D&D. it's one of the great fantasy novels... but you should read it for the same reasons you should Lord of the Rings (although Earthsea is more modern, so the prose flows a lot better), the Malazan series, Wheel of Time or Mistborn.

[sharp owl]

Correct, this channel is for discussing official D&D lore, so non-official and non-D&D sources aren't really relevant

[fringe dagger]

Is it just me, or do a lot of dragonriders seem to ride young dragons (with some exceptions)?

[white ravine]

Adult and ancient dragons dont really have much reason to hang around humanoids, let alone as mounts. For a younger dragon however, being a mount to someone else provides protection and consistent meals during the more unstable part of their life

[fringe dagger]

Do Adult Dragons and Young Dragons have the same proportions? By that, I mean not the size (I already know that Adult Dragons are bigger than Young Dragons), but do Young Dragons look slightly deformed as in having shorter necks and tails compared to Adult Dragons, or are their proportions the same (just that the size is different to match the body’s new size)?

[covert island]

I think thats up to you but given that young dragons range from 5-100 years there is deffinetly a gap for the awkward teen dragon proportions

[fringe dagger]

Basically, take Monster Hunter Stories for example. The Monsties are smaller than and look very deformed too compared to the Wild Monsties. Is that the same for Young Dragons?

When comparing them to Adult Dragons?

[raven needle]

comparing pictures in the MM... not really. maybe wyrmlings look a bit stumpier, but even that seems to follow the same proportions.

[spark haven]

there are lots of creatures that have radically different bodyplans throughout their lives. The big examples are things like butterflies and insects with larval metamorphoses, cnidarians with polyp phases, etc. The rest of us keep the same body-plan and just have subtle changes in proportions. Human children have heads that are only like, 5% bigger in proportion to their bodies but as a species we're finely tuned to recognize human-face-patterns so it seems significant

I don't think I've seen any canon that has dragons go through the former rather than the latter type of development, now that I think about it

Note to self: larval dragons?????

[white ravine]

Dragons aren't inexperienced when it comes to mining, several dragons are quite capable of burrowing through solid rock

[summer latch]

How common is it in the realms for a cleric who derives power from a god to switch deities? Do most follow 1 their whole lives or is it common to switch multiple times? Would there ever be a point where gods are hesitant to bestow their powers on a fair-weather cleric?

[runic cave]

It would be fine if it’s two gods that cover the same portfolio, like if you’re in one sphere and your god doesn’t exist there so you have to replace it with the equivalent

[raven needle]

rather uncommon. that said, there have been conquering cults taking over half of faerun, and they might convert people forcefully.

i guess what jbcred said also makes sense. if you're a cleric of tyr, but for some reason or another unhappy with your faith, you might put your faith in moradin instead?

[eager bay]

If in the Feywild the party returns and days there become weeks, months, or years back here, would they wind up aging to however old they should be?

[zenith dust]

Depends on what's good for the story/campaign

[granite silo]

In folklore the fairy land that the Feywild is based on, children taken by fairies don't age, they return to the normal world the age they left while their family aged, leading to the disbelief and mystery of the fairy realm.
But the Feywild doesn't follow 'normal' rules. it's a very independent realm, filled with independent beings so the rules can change drastically even within the realm itself depending on where you are, what powerful being is nearby or even what time it is.
Time could go regular during the day and go backwards at night.

[eager bay]

Where they wind up having to pay back the difference in years is often associated with Celtic folklore, such as the Irish myth genres called Echtrae and Immram

[granite silo]

I like to think of the feywild as a realm made up of magical gravity as a metaphor. The rules of the realm alter and change in an area as it adjusts for any heavy magical being in that realm.
A powerful hag, or dragon that takes over a space in the feyrealm starts changing the area by simply being there.
So in a campaign setting, the rules and geographic are very open to a GMs creativity to match the experienc with the story.

[white ravine]

They dont age, but time still passes. If they stay for a week and 7 years pass, they only aged one week.

[eager bay]

Aah kk

[open wolf]

Nightwalker

6 int but labled "Super-Genuis" on the forgotten Realm

Why is that?

[magic jackal]

It's labeled "Supra-Genius"

not Super.

[runic cave]

Can I spelljam to exandria

[open wolf]

All creatures whose individuals typically surpass genius-level intelligence

wait typo

[white ravine]

By the laws of spelljammer, yes

[runic cave]

So exandria is in the prime/astral

[white ravine]

Pain equivalent to showing a crucifix to a demon

Exandria would be considered a prime material plane

[white ravine]

There's a sort of phenomena when it comes to elementals where drawing them into the material plane and out of their home plane 'dampens them', making them weaker and less intelligent.

There's a possibility that since nightwalkers can be loosely defined as 'negative energy elementals', the idea would transfer to them

@runic cave In the pursuit of 5e adding spelljammer but wanting to keep it noob friendly, they took the gigachad of the phlogiston by awkwardly gutting it out and replaced it with the astral plane which messes up a ton of pre-established lore

[runic cave]

actually that’s 4e but yea agreed. So its not quirky like athas or eberron (or mystara)?

[iron saffron]

Campaign setting worlds, such as Toril, Oerth, Eberron, Athas, and Exandria, are in the prime material plane. To travel between their crystal spheres/systems you would need a spelljamming ship.

[runic cave]

But athas can’t be spelljammed to, eberron can’t be spelljammed to and mystara pretty much kills you

[unkempt merlin]

Eberron explicitly isn't in the prime material plane actually. It's a secondary material plane.

[runic cave]

Eberron a material plane pocket in the ethereal plane, right?

[iron saffron]

Yes, pre-5E some crystal spheres were blocked so spelljammers couldn't get in.

Sorry I don't much about Eberron's lore... so I stand corrected.

I'm a big 2E Spelljammer and Planescape fan.

[unkempt merlin]

canon eberron is deep in the ethereal plane. Past that the exact nature of its scenario is a tad undefined (intentionally so)

[runic cave]

So, exandria(space) isn’t quirky?

[unkempt merlin]

Namely because the setting as designed was meant to have little to no interaction with the multiversd (it was og og completely separate entirely)

[iron saffron]

I don't know if Exandria space is officially part of D&D since it's owned by Critical Role...

[unkempt merlin]

There is exactly 0 info on spelljamming in exandria. It's a new setting and spelljammer, by the nature of functionally being a setting between settings, isn't a "part" of it, even if Exandria is connected to the larger multiverse

[iron saffron]

It sounds like Critical Role may be moving away from WotC owned IPs such as renaming the D&D gods (I think they borrowed some Pathfinders one and had to rename them?)

[unkempt merlin]

Exandria itself is fully dnd canon and official. It's got 2 books in setting (iirc the only non FR setting to do so) and is referenced in at least... 3? Other ones.

[runic cave]

Thanks

[runic cave]

Greyhawk has salt marsh and yawning portal if you count those

[runic cave]

What books is it referred to in? 👀

[unkempt merlin]

Exandria in large uses the dawn war pantheon. The renaming of the gods was moreso for the sake of their third party publications. The official wotc books use the original names, bar the ones that weren't available to do so. Such as Sarenraei becoming Raei

[iron saffron]

Eh, it's like TSR had published Star Wars, Warcraft, and Conan TTRPGs. It's an agreement between Critical Role and WotC to publish those two books (CR retains all rights to everything Exandria) but now CR has their own publishing house, Darrington Press, and they had reprinted Tal’Dorei Campaign Setting Reborn. I think going forward CR will just publish their campaign setting world stuff in-house.

[unkempt merlin]

I didn't because none of those are setting books for the setting. Exandrja has one setting book in Wildemount, and one adventure book, in Netherdeep

[unkempt merlin]

Descent into Avernus, Wild Beyond the Witchlight, and.... one other I'm blanking on

[runic cave]

And Diablo!

[iron saffron]

Really? I didn't notice that! Huh!

[runic cave]

Really interesting, do u know the context for the avernus reference?

[unkempt merlin]

CR still owning exandria doesn't preclude it from also being an official dnd setting

[runic cave]

If they bring back warcraft I’ll forgive WotC of all their sins

[unkempt merlin]

That one is spelled out pretty explicitly in the adventure. One of the biggest NPCs in it has a very... handy connection to Exandria.

It's a direct reference to the critical role stream (and thus the setting)

[iron saffron]

Oh, I know who you're talking about...

[unkempt merlin]

It's ||Arkhan.|| that was what the pun was lol

[iron saffron]

Yeah, him. That's Joe Manganiello's PC.

[runic cave]

Ooo probably in not baldurs gate

I always forget it’s titled baldurs gate and doesn’t take place there

Thanks I’ll look him up

[unkempt merlin]

It's mention in witchlight is far more minor. ||just some of the random background NPCs are from the setting. Although frustratingly It's referred to as "the world of taldorei" (which is a continent in setting), while every other similarly described NPC is described as from the setting/world of their respective one. Rather than a continent. I suspect a CR fan was part of the editing and it slipped by because it didn't raise any flags||

[iron saffron]

It was a marketing ploy so they could insert the DM-centric info on Baldur's Gate without needing a dedicated Baldur's Gate splatbook like they would have done back in 2E/3E.

[runic cave]

Neverwinter map when

[unkempt merlin]

I can almost guarantee that it's called baldurs gate because they refuse to have adventures thay take place off the material plane without starting on the material plane. Witchlight does it too. Witchlight is just a carnival that travels the material plane. The vast majority of that adventure also takes place not on the material, same as dia

Slightly less marketing ploy, slightly more weird refusal to leave the material plane.

Frankly the fact that Call of the Netherdeep is called such is shocking

[runic cave]

I specifically think it’s called baldur’s gate for name recognition

I have no idea why mad mage and dragon heist have the city in their title

[iron saffron]

WotC keeps releasing adventure books with DM-centric info instead of dedicated DM-centric splatbooks. 😦

I bought the Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, and Icewind Dale books not for the adventure but for their region info

Ghost of Saltmarsh has the naval/ship info

[runic cave]

I bought spelljammer for lore and rules 😣

[iron saffron]

My condolences.

[runic cave]

It would be nice if they brought back mystara. Considering that’s what I’m running currently

[iron saffron]

I bought 5E Spelljammer because I thought they would update it. Now I have little hope for 5E Planescape.

[runic cave]

Well planescape is safe because it’s ONLY lore, so that’s all they can butcher. The spell is already in 5e baseline

[unkempt merlin]

Part of its their chosen release type and schedule for 5e. Which is a massively less amount of books. 1 book pee a previous editions 5. That in turn results in a lot of people wanting the same amount of lore that was presented in previous editions to be presented. Which to any amount of reasonability is entirely unreasonable. The sheer page count difference alone is silly. Even with the larger 5e books compared to the multiple books of previous editions on a single topic.

Ie, they release more niche setting specific info in adventures where that info is actually relevant (which makes sense), but falls into the previously mentioned issues of people's expectations being way too high to an unreasonable degree.

[unkempt merlin]

Admittedly, they did update the setting for 5e. The Phlog is gone.

[runic cave]

That’s a 4e change tho

[iron saffron]

That's what has me worried...

[runic cave]

Well the factions are gone now right?

[iron saffron]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[unkempt merlin]

They've done updating to various other aspects of settings (namely the FR). But it falls into the "people don't want the setting but new. They just want reprints of the old books with all the same lore". It's why you see so many ridiculous complaints about "lore was butchered" or whatever, even when the "butchered" lore in question was often simply excluded, rather than touched on at all

[iron saffron]

And replaced it with the Astral Sea for some dumb reason.

Just keeping wildspace would have been fine.

[runic cave]

They’ll TOTALLY keep it that way, they literally cannot be that edgy now. It straight up won’t happen

[unkempt merlin]

All in all the function of the Astral sea really didn't change from how it's always worked in 5e

Going off the stuff in the dmg that is

[iron saffron]

The Astral Sea is suppose to connect the Material plane to the Outer planes, not between the worlds of the Material plane

[runic cave]

I hate it when they advance the setting then walk it back for no reasons (Tieflings)

[runic cave]

Which would be fine if there was a lore reason for it

[iron saffron]

"Astral Sea has the word 'sea' in it and spelljammers sail in space soooo..."

4E had changed the cosmology away from the Great Wheel, using the Astral Sea where the outer planes were located.

[unkempt merlin]

While yes to the former the latter also fundamentally can't be true. If you go into the Astral sea to get to the outer planes, and you can do that anywhere on the material plane, then by its very nature you should very reasonably and logically be able to go from one part of the material to another via it. It's even in the dmg. Color pools to the material plane are twice as likely on the table as a pool to any individual outer plane.

Hence my point about "going off the stuff in the dmg"

[iron saffron]

I'm less upset about the removal of the flammable Phlogiston or the Crystal Spheres.

[unkempt merlin]

The crystal spheres are interesting because functionally, they are more or less still there. Just instead of being a physical thing it is now the intermediary boundaries between the Astral and wildspace

[iron saffron]

Besides, the Astral Sea/Plane is suppose to be "out of body"

[unkempt merlin]

Except for all the times it very much has never been. Namely, Gith

[iron saffron]

True.

[runic cave]

I run crystal spheres and astral, cause nothing says the spheres don’t exist

[iron saffron]

Anyway, I'm ignoring 5E Spelljammer's usage of the Astral Sea in my campaign.

[unkempt merlin]

Gith were pre-eminate spelljammers, and also proliferative in the astral

[unkempt merlin]

Other than the actual description of the edge of a wildspace system, but sure

[runic cave]

I just have my players flow into that if they don’t find/create a portal

[unkempt merlin]

Crystal spheres were replaced with a silvery haze that functions as the border

[runic cave]

But the doesn’t work for athas

[unkempt merlin]

Which notably, doesn't exist in 5e

Intentionally so even

[runic cave]

Princes of the apocalypse mentions it

[unkempt merlin]

It has a system that was a nod to it in doomspace, but it itself Intentionally removed

[runic cave]

They totally should have blown up athas

[iron saffron]

Athas has been mention in 5E books.

[runic cave]

Princes of the apocalypse

And dmg

[runic cave]

“Known worlds of the material plane”

[runic cave]

“Dark sun”

[hazy fox]

Dark Sun can work if they just have Vault Boy style mascot to explain about the lore, plus dark comedy.

[solemn nexus]

Dark sun could work as it was written if it was marketed properly, sure it explores some pretty grim topics and morals, but it will never be a setting that would fit the majority of players due to the setting and the premise for it. However there would be so many people who would never be the intended audience for a setting like dark sun that would find it problematic and would talk about that its a doomed setting from the start.

[marsh pier]

Disregarding obvious player choice, for the Forgotten Realms, do the Eladrin as a people worship the same pantheon as their cousin elves? Im ignorant on them as a whole and am trying to build a npc.

[grim siren]

So the Fey Eladrin do worship the Seldarine, the Elvish Pantheon with a higher focus on Corellon. Fey Eladrin are closer to Corellon and the Seldarine, being some of the few who are allowed to return to Arvandor. Their Mythical Home.

The Elves are not native to the feywild and neither are the Eladrin. They simply stopped in the feywild after the elves were cast out of Arvandor.

[jaunty light]

Dark Sun isn't coming to 5e, Kyle Brink said so

honestly I can see why, if people want dark sun, they can homebrew it

[runic cave]

“Highly unlikely”

[hazy fox]

I mean Fallout rpg released and had same subject as Dark Sun even if optimistic.

(Or I am reading it wrong and Dark Sun is a whole lot different since most of my exposure is second hand source)

[jaunty light]

Fallout's Earth can heal, Dark Sun's planet is dying with no chance of recovery

[unkempt merlin]

Even disregarding the themes of dark sun. The mechanics wouldn't work in 5e either. It's an issue that has always been pervasive with dark sun. The mechanics the setting demands puts it at odds with the general edition quite often, regardless of the edition

[pseudo wind]

False, the planet can recover, in the form of the Avangions! Basically super powerful primal beings that can restore life to large amounts of land

It's not easy becoming an avangion and most will die trying, but it's happened before, and in the metaplot, happens again

The planet's dying, immortal, powerful sorcerer-kings rules over what civilization remains. But they can be overthrown, and Athas. can get a happy ending. You just have to earn it through copious amounts of blood, sweat and tears, and your PCs may not live to see its rebirth, whether because you die violently or it won't happen for centuries

[hazy fox]

Speaking of which, what about 4e?
That might give a clue on “modern Dark Sun”…ignoring literal sorcerers as classes.

[mellow ferry]

Dark Sun has eugenics, rampant slavery, outright racism, cannibalism, and the lowliest peasant can cast powerful magic, but doing so speeds up the death of the world.

[pseudo wind]

Most people do have minor psionic capability, but you still gotta learn how to use magic, and it's a universally despised force

[mellow ferry]

Didn't say you didn't have to learn. Said that anybody can do it.

[pseudo wind]

Sure, but most can't

[hazy fox]

Hence why I said second hand sources that seems to give general run down without that aspect.
So maybe give wrong impression that the audience can't stand Fallout-style DND universe without context.

[clever solstice]

Soul Coins as a currency seem strange, mechanically, but wouldn't it make sense for them to be a charge based currency?

Each charge can be transferred for a specific monetary value, with change being provided, so that you're not having to give so much change for a single soul coin being used on mundane infernal purchases. Having the Fiend absorb the soul or transfer it to a vessel.

[white ravine]

If we're talking a more blended mechanic, technically more valuable souls would have more charges

5e just doesnt because well... effort

[clever solstice]

That does sound good

[rich crypt]

@raven needle I do think that a lot of red dragons would have an escape route, because they believe themselves so superior that they would never let themselves die to puny adventurers

[jaunty light]

Interesting 😲

[raven needle]

Unless you're sticking strictly to the lore as written, you can write the Dragon's personality as you like. If it works best for your campaign that the dragon has an escape, then do that. It sounds undeniably cool for the dragon to screech in rage, then plunge into the lava and never resurface. maybe have the whole mountain collapse on top of the party. and make it clear that the dragon holds the party responsible for the loss of all their treasure 😉

[rich crypt]

Oh, true

[eager bay]

Remind me which D&D settings are strictly creationist and which have evolution be a thing

[iron saffron]

All of them.

The gods created their respective species, except for humans who don't have one creator god.

You should write this stuff down.

[eager bay]

Yeye, the planet and other life could still have evolved over billions of years

[eager bay]

This actually is where I got the idea that these "gods" came to the world millions of years prior, both influencing existing life and creating life of their own, if that makes sense.

[iron saffron]

Sure, whatever you come up with the lore at your table.

[eager bay]

Mhm

[iron saffron]

But Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, et al are creationists for most sentient species.

[eager bay]

Was meaning creationist more for like that the world itself be created by those gods too like in Tolkien

[iron saffron]

Which setting and which edition?

4E drastically added/changed the cosmology lore.

[eager bay]

for what

[iron saffron]

Creation of the Material Plane for example.

[eager bay]

5e

[iron saffron]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

5E has been light on adding/updating lore pertaining outside of the Material Plane.

You may have to wait for 5E Planescape.

[eager bay]

will do

[white ravine]

Provided 5e planescape is even reasonable

[iron saffron]

2E Planescape is available already (I personally would rather rely on 2E sources than 5E sources given the horrible track record WotC's has with lore in 5E)

5E Spelljammer was a waste of money.

[white ravine]

waste of money is an understatement, its an insult

[iron saffron]

Thank God I still have my 2E Spelljammer boxed set!

[crude blaze]

5E Spelljammer is still great imo, but to each their own

[pseudo wind]

Ahahahahahahaaaaa

5e devs despises alignment, and cosmic alignment and the implications of it existing is a fundamental part of Planescape. Also, they can't be bothered to flesh out outer space for Spelljammer, they will barely touch trying to flesh out multiple planes of existence

[white ravine]

Cant wait for planescape to drop and be strictly player options with only a snippet of information for DMs, all of which are retcons or lazily made

[crude blaze]

Oh no, the 5E iteration of a legacy setting might be different from prior editions!

[grim siren]

Different would be good. Devoid of substance is not.

[storm dagger]

I think Spelljammer was still good even if it could have expanded on things, a problem born of its short page count.

The page count has been one of the most commented on criticism, so I can easily see them addressing it with Planescape

[storm dagger]

Not really

[pseudo wind]

not really wot

[storm dagger]

They don’t really hate alignment and cosmic alignment

Also I feel they will try and flesh out some outer planes

[pseudo wind]

they sure as hell haven't given any indication otherwise

[eager bay]

Are fey immortal or just super long-lived?

[white ravine]

Full immortal

At least...the precedent was they were

Then harengon showed up

[unkempt merlin]

Harengon aren't fey

And not all fey are immortal. Never have been. Its just a creature type.

There are plenty of not-immortal inhabitants of the feywild. Like yknow. Elves and Eladrin

[iron saffron]

I thought that Feywild has a different passage of time so they're longer lived?

[unkempt merlin]

thats also a factor

[stuck breach]

Just because a lot of fey are in the habit of calling denizens of the Prime Material Plane "mortals" doesn't mean that fey are all immortal. People refer to all kinds of things incorrectly.

[white ravine]

'materials' is the best insult for an extraplanar being to use on a player, mortals doesnt do it justice

[stuck breach]

Is it?

I wouldn't be particularly insulted by something calling me a "material," I'd be more likely to laugh at their weak attempt at insulting me

[blissful umbra]

finite, weak, prone to self destruction, mortal, fragile, reliant on others.

[stuck breach]

I don't thing the term "materials" implies any of that, really

[storm dagger]

Quicklings expictly age to death fast

[stuck breach]

And they're fey

But they're also a special case

[storm dagger]

Yes, but the fact they die faster from aging implies they could originally die from aging.

[storm dagger]

What gives you an indication they hate it, given that it's included in the game.

[storm dagger]

Pretty sure Prime was the term Planar folk used.

That and Clueless.

[oblique compass]

Hello, there are 3 images of Waterdeep's Walking Statues on this page: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Walking_Statues_of_Waterdeep, however, none of the specific 8 known statues is using those 3 images. I was wondering if anyone knew whether those 3 images were corresponding to a known statue or given that they are not linked that they are actually random.

[iron saffron]

The third one appears to be the Sahuagin Humbled.

The first one maybe the Great Drunkard?

[thin cypress]

If a dracolich is destroyed, and its spirit inhabits the body of a dragon of another type or size, does it keep the traits of its original form, or gain the traits of the new form?

Say an ancient red dracolich dies, its soul goes back to its phylactery, and it possesses an adult black dragon's corpse, is it now an ancient red dracolich, or adult black dracolich?

[raven needle]

the way sleeping dragon wakes deals with that is that the new body provides the stats, but the breath attack comes from the dracolich 🤷

[thin cypress]

okay cool. so in my example, we'd have an adult black dracolich with an ancient red dragon/dracolich's breath weapon?

[raven needle]

that's what it says about it

so yeah, I guess in your case, the stats would be for an adult black dragon, and the breath weapon would do fire damage instead of necrotic

[sharp owl]

@raven needle please do not post adventure spoilers outside of #1029833015423143957

[raven needle]

sorry, thought it wasn't a spoiler but I guess the dragon name is a spoiler?

[sharp owl]

And it's statistics

[raven needle]

I didn't post its stat block tho? just that you had to use a specific statblock for it... which I don't think is available outside of the adventure module. I guess maybe it's in motm?

[summer latch]

how does the Order of the Gauntlet, Emerald Enclave, and Harpers make money to fund their operations? Lords' Alliance and Zhentarim are easy enough to imagine, but the structure and organization of the other 3 makes it hard to picture how they would raise and spend funds.

Especially the Harpers since they're a "secret" organization, like I could see people hiring the Order of the Gauntlet to cleanse areas of evil or Emerald Enclave to advise on how settle lands to claim resources or build villages without disrupting the ecosystem

[spice canopy]

For the Harpers I'd say: if you have eyes and ears at every court and on every trade route you have an intrinsic advantage when it comes to business and investment.

Knowing stuff will go down before it goes down makes people rich even in our universe.

No idea about the other organisations way to do this. 🤷‍♀️

[raven needle]

from the forgotten realms wiki:
The Harpers organization was one with significant resources and a surprising amount of wealth. As a whole, they maintained financial investments in holdings and establishments across west Faerûn.[116] The collective network of artisans, craftspeople, and merchants within their ranks allowed agents of the organization to purchase valuable magical items at a significant discount, helping increase the chances of success for their missions.

so yeah, what chylli said

for the emerald enclave, I'd bet they can get funds from philanthropists in the same way charities do irl. also, consulting as you mentioned. presumably also specific missions: e.g. if dagult neverember wants to clear a plague of twig blights from the Neverwinter woods, the emerald enclave might get commissioned for something like that

order of the gauntlet could presumably get funding from the churches, who got money from worshippers

[storm dagger]

The Harpers are also very decentralized, most of the membership probably makes their own money.

[marble jungle]

are the Netherese active in the current year DR

[grim siren]

Not really. The fall of Nethril occured over 1800 years ago. A city did survive in the shadowfel called Thultanthar it returned during the spell plague and founded the Empire of Shadow over Anuaroch. (Old Nethril) they set up a campaign to be some of 4es big bads.

After the second Sundering 10-20 years before 5e canon the city was destroyed. What few netherese (called Shadovar) that survived lives in the desert of Anuaroch they fought with the locals there and caused an emergence of the Phaerimm.

They are still a group but not "active"

[iron saffron]

The majority of the Netherese who suvived are in the Shadowfell/Plane of Shadow.

[violet isle]

When making attacks with nets, will I be able to use yhe rest of my attacks to attack with something else?

[iron saffron]

The hermit kingdom of Halruaa are descendants of the Netherese (their language is based on old Netherese).

[grim siren]

As are the Thayans

[iron saffron]

You may want to ask in #dnd-rules

[gray ember]

Hobgoblin lore often refers to this strict code they follow, are we ever told what exactly that is?

[iron saffron]

Military code of some sort.

[clever solstice]

Given this was an official post on the D&D facebook, is everything in this image canon for devils

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/574/980/c59.jpg

Because I totally see an Erinyes going home to take care of their Cockapoo Hellhound, which raises the question of Hellhound Breeds

[marble jungle]

Is old netherese dragonic

[iron saffron]

Netherese uses the draconic script.

The term "Netherese" was also used by scholars to refer to Netherese and those languages derived from it, namely, Halruaan and Ruathlek.

While Halruaan and Ruathlek were the direct linguistic descendents of Netherese, several other common languages bore traces of the Netherese tongue, including Chondathan, Damaran, Illuskan, and Tethyrian.

[magic jackal]

Not to mention that "Netherese" is split up into Loross and Netherese for the upper and lower classes of their Magocratic society respectively

[stuck isle]

Is there a history between Thay and Netheril? Thay is a break-off state from Mulhorand, which overthrew Imaskar. I know there was contact between Larloch and Szass Tam, but I don't think they Thayans are descended from the Netherese - they're Egyptians.

[magic jackal]

A great deal of Szass's power came from his relationship with Larloch, and both Thay and Netheril were Magocratic societies and proponents of slavery, but I don't recall them having a specific history together.

[mellow ferry]

There's a secret group called the Court of Three, based out of the Citadel of the Raven in the western Moonsea region. Two of the Tanthul princesses, Lelavdra and Manarlume (both daughters of Prince Dethud), and a male Netherese arcanist named Gwelt, are currently locating and protecting any Netherese survivors they can find.

At last count, they've managed to gather over sixty Netherese survivors to them, but to the Three's surprise, a lot of the Netherese that they've found have actually rejected their offer of refuge, glad to be free of Tanthul rule.

[zinc birch]

Question, is the distinction between Demons, Devils and Yugoloths really that strict? Orcus is a demon but he behaves more like a Yugoloth arguably with his focus on the undead and desire to unmake all life for his own interests. Grazzt is arguably halfway between being a devil and a demon and probably has a devil parent. The General of Gehenna is a Yugoloth but he also acts similarly to Asmodeus in a lot of ways. It seems like in some ways these distinctions are more geographical than about actual goals and alignments.

I guess this is kind of why the whole wheel cosmology fell out of popularity?

[iron saffron]

Yes.

Demons are CE fiends created by the Abyss itself.
Devils are created from LE souls in Hell and they get promoted.
Yugoloths are NE fiends that play both sides of the Blood War.

Luckily for the multiverse the demons and devils have been preoccupied by fighting each other in the centuries long Blood War rather than focusing their attention on the Material Plane.

Asmodeus is a fallen (greater) god.

[zinc birch]

And the Demodands are also NE but can't really take part in the blood war because they're all trapped in Carceri?

[iron saffron]

If you want more information there are plenty of source books on demons and devils, such as the 4E Demononicon, 2E/3E/4E Manual of the Planes, and many 2E Planescape books.

Demondands are probably the least covered lore-wise of the fiends.

[zinc birch]

Ok thanks, just interested in how the different types of fiends relate and interact since so much emphasis is given to devils and demons but not so much to the other two.

[iron saffron]

Yugoloths were once called daemons but due to the Satantic Panic of the 80s they were renamed, as with the devils (to baatezu) and demons (to tanar'ri). By the end of the 2E era, devils and demons got their names back (it was retconned that baatezuis the species and tanar'ri is one of three types of demons)

[zinc birch]

which is kinda weird to me because in historic etymology daemon usually refers to benevolent demons but the yugoloths are just extremely freaking evil

Maybe they were called Daemons because the yugoloths are most open to working with humans?

[iron saffron]

Daemons play both sides. There was a monster called the guardian daemon in AD&D but that was renamed later I think (sorry working from foggy memory)

[zinc birch]

I am interested in doing some creative writing where the Yugoloths or Demodands take a larger role but it's harder for me to figure out their actual role in universe as compared to the demons and devils who have a much clearer role. I guess being neutral beings they have more fluid motivations.

[iron saffron]

Gygax just used folklore names to make them specific creatures. In folklore, goblins, hobgoblins, and such meant the same thing but Gygax made them unique.

[zinc birch]

Which to me is something I really like about the DND universe and interests me a lot.

[iron saffron]

Planescape probably is your best resource then if you want to dive deeper

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Yugoloth

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Demodand

[mellow ferry]

Demodands and yugoloths were both created by the baernoloths, at least, according to legend, but the demodands were exiled for being a little too chaotic.

[zinc birch]

yeah I read a lot of the articles on forgotten realms

but I am trying to find out more

[iron saffron]

It appears that 3E is the last edition to feature demodands

[zinc birch]

Oh, I hadn't heard that origin story for the Demodands but that makes so much sense since they are very similar to Yugoloths in a lot of ways.

[zinc birch]

Did later editions just get rid of Carceri entirely?

[mellow ferry]

It was still in 4th edition, but little was written about it

[iron saffron]

The Abyss and Hell are the NYC and LA of the Lower Planes. All of the other Lower Planes are "flyover states" in terms of lore.

[zinc birch]

That's too bad. Like I get why the whole great wheel cosmology doesn't really work but some of those random realms are so cool like Carceri and Acheron

[zinc birch]

Darn coastal elites

[iron saffron]

4E rewrote the cosmology, replacing the Great Wheel. 5E brought back the Great Wheel cosmology, even replacing Forgotten Realm's World Tree cosmology with the Great Wheel.

[zinc birch]

ahhh ok

thank you

[iron saffron]

5E kept the Shadowfell and Feywild introduced in 4E though and removed the Positive and Negative Planes.

[zinc birch]

It's too bad there isn't more lore on the other lower planes, they are so freaking cool.

Carceri, Acheron and also Gehenna are probably some of my favorite planes

Hades is pretty boring but that's obviously the point

I dunno the upper planes just are a lot more bland imo

But I guess a lot of the upper planes are also pretty devoid of lore

But so basically it seems like if someone wanted to write about the Yugoloths or the Demodands there really isn't a whole lot to work with huh

[iron saffron]

Like I mentioned earlier, check out the old 2E Planescape books.

[zinc birch]

Yup, thanks again for the recommendation.

[runic cave]

How so? I thought the chart in 5e still had the positive and negative planes

[crude blaze]

It does

The chart showing them is just under the Material Echoes section of the planes appendix in the PHB: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/appendix-c-the-planes-of-existence#MaterialEchoes

[runic cave]

That’s what I thought

[iron saffron]

Huh... I thought they got rid of them because of the replacement of positive and negative energy with radiant and necrotic damage. My bad. I stand corrected!

[runic cave]

Interesting

[grim siren]

they did sort of drop the para and quasi-elemental planes but there wasn't much there anyway

[runic cave]

I thought those were still there too, the quasi

I think para were dropped

But I could be confused

[crude blaze]

I think it’s the other way around. Paraelemental planes exist (the places where the four elemental planes meet), quasi were dropped

[runic cave]

Ur right

[crude blaze]

But to be fair, I don’t think they’re officially referred to as the paraelemental planes in 5E. They’re kinda just described as regions where the four elemental planes meet.

[runic cave]

True

[viscid jackal]

i think teh guardains were created by yugoloths

[eager bay]

@median bobcat moved it here

[shell gale]

so i thought mind flayers were the folks that had thralls as mind zombies

or what am I thinking of

[white ravine]

Your correct

Also beholders.

[eager bay]

Is Kara-Tur salvageable?

[white ravine]

Yeah. It's not the worst thing, not by a long shot. Might need some rewriting or gritting of teeth though to get through it.

[shrewd bobcat]

Is there any Drow lore regarding Worshippers of Lolth using ritual daggers, and what kind of dagger would they use?

[jaunty holly]

Could a beholder be a warlock’s patron?

[maiden nacelle]

huh thats pretty interesting actually

[maiden nacelle]

honestly it could be though in the end its up to you and your dm to decide

[shrewd bobcat]

Is Arachne still canon in 5e lore?

[iron saffron]

The 3.5E prestige class of Lolth?

[shrewd bobcat]

She was the Good Aligned Spider Goddess who opposed Lolth.
At least in 4e

Honestly, just reading about her so I'm still learning

But I can't find anything about her in 5e sources

Very likely homebrew though so don't hold me to it

But I like it so I'm going to run with it

[iron saffron]

Which book because I don't see any reference to Arachne other than that 3.5E prestige class.

[stuck breach]

A sharp dagger

[shrewd bobcat]

Yeah, only book I specifically found is a homebrew book for 4e.
So I should of asked "Is Arachne canon in 5e lore?" And not "Still"

[white ravine]

Great old one, yup.

[mellow ferry]

Not much, but yes.

Daggers were used for sacrifice. Also, the founder of Menzoberranzan, Menzoberra the Kinless, owned a sacred dagger.

At least some of the ritual daggers they used looked kinda spidery:
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/e/e8/Sacrifice_To_Lolth.png.png/revision/latest?cb=20190409003620

[mellow ferry]

Arachne is an entirely homebrew god.

The other canon arachnid gods in D&D are:

• Selvetarm: Lolth's consort, who takes the form of a spider with a male drow's head
• Vulkoor: A minor scorpion god from Eberron worshipped by one sect of drow living in Xen'drik
• Miska the Wolf Spider: An ancient and powerful demon lord who was the Prince of demons before the ascension of Demogorgon.
• Zanassu: A minor demon lord worshiped by some Aranea
• Arasta: A nymph who was transformed into a powerful spider monster on the MtG plane of Theros, and is served by other spiders and arachnid monsters

You could also use Anansi from RL west African mythology.

[raven needle]

don't see why not. could be a reflavored great old one rather easily

[shrewd bobcat]

I think I like Arachne better.

[mellow ferry]

Yeah, D&D doesn't really 'do' good-aligned arachnids. They tend to be neutral at best.

[raven needle]

I have a player who wants to pick the Cloistered Scholar background, because we're playing in the swordcoast. However, I have a tough time figuring out what cloistered library would be at all useful somewhere near Phandalin. I can just invent one or move one nearer, but if there's already a good one that I can use, that's preferrable to me.

[serene crater]

I mean they could be from candkekeep studying something fron phandalin

[raven needle]

yeah, but I'm trying to make their feature useful.

[hexed plaza]

Or have been at an annex in Neverwinter, perhaps

[raven needle]

that could work. Neverember paid a bunch of money to the Candlekeep Scholars to set up library in Neverwinter. It gives them a reason to be travelling around the north picking up books and scrolls. Might even have a rivalry with Silverymoon

[shell gale]

oh ok, I guess these mind flayers just didn't have thralls then by happenstance xD They just wanted to eat brain lol

[white ravine]

In a situation where flayers dont have a steady supply of thralls to use for more practical means, sometimes the best thing they can do is feed and wait.

[thin cypress]

Looking at the Arcanaloth stat block and noticed it has a 30 ft. fly speed, but no wings and no explanation in its lore as to why it has a fly speed. What are the origins of this, if they're known?

[crude blaze]

Magic

[spark haven]

Arcanaloths are sly, jackal-headed beings with humanoid bodies, but they can employ magic to take any humanoid form.
It does say this

Canonical shapeshifters

There are humanoids with wings

and fly speeds

[thin cypress]

There are also humanoids with swim speeds but it says nothing about arcanaloths being great at swimming.

[spark haven]

it can cast 8th level spells, i don't see why flying is such a stretch

for PCs, that's what, a 4th or 5th level trick?

I think this is just one of the places where the DM has to use creative license. Why does the tarrasque's hide have properties that reflect magic? because the statblock says so. an in-character explanation would be setting-dependent

[thin cypress]

In my mind it just didn't make much sense so I wanted to ask if there was a lore reason

[spark haven]

you're definitely right, it doesn't say anything explicitly about having wings or anything

but based on its statblock, this thing is not designed to be a simple encounter

flying is a pretty easy way to make a threat stick longer and hurt more

not hard to piece together why it is the way it is

[thin cypress]

Oh yeah definitely. Barbarians, paladins and the like will be pissed lol

[spark haven]

I've heard the name arcanoloth but I've never looked at the statblock. This one is bringing enough frustration to share with everyone

[thin cypress]

The art includes no wings, and the stat block and little bit of a description we get along with it doesn't say anything about the flying either!

[iron saffron]

Arcanaaloths first appeared in 1E AD&D's Monster Manual 2. They were called Arcanadaemons. They could fly via magic as per the fly spell for an unlimited duration.

The 5E version is just a carry over from the original arcanadaemon but just didn't explain the source of the fly speed.

It's not uncommon for some monsters to be able to fly vis the spell of the same name.

[thin cypress]

Okay I get it now. Also didn't know Arcanaloths were so old!

[crude blaze]

A lot of existing monsters are carried over from prior editions. I’d argue maybe even most of them are.

[iron saffron]

Daemons were renamed to yugoloths because of the 1980s Satanic Panic scare.

Similarly, demons were renamed to the tanari-ri and devils to baatezu until the end of the 2E era (after the Satanic Panic scare was over). Those names were retconned as the specific species name of demons and devils.

[crude blaze]

Yeah, 5E treats “demon” and “devil” more like colloquialism, right?

[iron saffron]

Well, the Blood War still persists since the 2E days.

I'm disappointed that yugoloths were reverted back to daemons. That and the demodands haven't made an appearance since 3E.

[crude blaze]

I want obyriths

[scarlet sierra]

Just the head?

[zinc birch]

Arcanoloths are like the second strongest type of Yugoloth so they’re pretty powerful.

They are extremely intelligent and have a ton of tricks.

poison claws

[steady pond]

hi I am new and want to play D&D

[ionic rivet]

Check out #dnd-newcomers and see the pinned message there.

[mellow ferry]

Yes, just the head. The rest of him is spider. He can still hold weapons without hands though

[scarlet sierra]

Weird.

[livid vale]

Would people recommend the Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide?

[iron saffron]

No.

If you want Faerun lore go find a copy of the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. It's 320 pages compared to SCAG's 159 pages.

I still refer back to my 3E FRCS book.

[crude blaze]

Alternatively, play a better setting

[white ravine]

Yes, only if you want the options. Otherwise, the lore is kind of eh.

[grim siren]

Yea in terms of Lore there is nothing in the book that 3E's setting book doesn't do better. But even at that point, check out the Forgotten Realms wiki it's the most comprehensive wiki for a DND setting out there.

[ripe shoal]

how big differents are from any humanoids living in forests and the one living in mountains ( snow ones ) ?

👻

[white ravine]

This is...kinda vague, whaddaya mean?

[ripe shoal]

I mean, I feel like any species evolving in an environnement is different, so I feel like it should have different physical attributes ?

[white ravine]

Well, for a basic example...Goliaths. Resistant to cold and high altitudes, mountain dwelling, very sturdy...

[spark haven]

idk, look at humans. We've spent a few million years diversifying into plains, arboreal, mountain, desert, etc habitation. None of us have grown wings or gills

That level of differentiation would probably make them a whole new species

which usually isn't the case for "families" like "wood/hill/mountain/dark elves"

[fathom rapids]

When do Aaracokra reach maturity?

[ebon holly]

in new ruling, mature at the same rate at humans

[fathom rapids]

They don't have a lifespan of 30 years anymore?

[ebon holly]

nop

[zenith dust]

Certainly that can be different in different settings

[lucid phoenix]

Build would probably be different, depending on how long the groups have lived in these places. And if they're really living in the environment or doing the modern humans thing where you're more separated from it and physical traits don't matter so much. Like, you need more fat on your body to be comfortable in constant cold vs running around in a cozy forest. Maybe hair, eye, and skin tone differences. Otherwise, it'd just be cultural differences.

I'd think it'd be similar for most humanoids

[fathom rapids]

I was just thinking, it would be an interesting world building challenge to think about a society where they literally don't have time to educate their people, because they go out into the world. I suppose Dave is right though, that I could just use their old lore for my own personal setting

[fathom rapids]

Some humanoid races adapt/evolve via magic though. While its not canon yet, we saw a glimpse of this in the One D&D playtest materials for goliaths, which had various different types, that correspond to the types of giants. Giant types are more hereditary than something they consciously adapt into, so I tend to think of it like magically accelerated evolution

[lucid phoenix]

Why I said most 😊

[magic jackal]

Although interestingly not hairy, which is a common evolution amongst cold-dwelling species in our real world.

Something something evolution in FR is weird.

[white ravine]

Their rough age was around 65 years old for when they died, and there's no real maturity age listed.

However, we can do some rough estimation based on the fact theyre similar to bald eagles.

Bald eagle lives to around 20-30 years tops. Average of 25, and they're considered fully mature at 5 years old.

So they mature at 1/5th of their lifespan, and given how they cap at 65, you can roughly assume they're mature by the time they hit 13.

[magic jackal]

Age
Aarakocra reach maturity by age 3. Compared to humans, aarakocra don’t usually live longer than 30 years.

That's what it was originally in 5e.

[white ravine]

...Am I that blind?

[fathom rapids]

Yeah, ty Tea. I went back and read the legacy version and found that, but Arimedea is right, that got retconed out

[magic jackal]

Yeah every race is just "Matures same rate as humans and lives a century" now because they standardized everything.

[white ravine]

...Good god, I am that blind. screw this im going to bed

[grim siren]

I have wondered does that also apply to elves because talk about getting their lifespan nerfed hard

[iron saffron]

Elves mature at the same rate as human but they just live longer.

[magic jackal]

Yes, but monsters of the multiverse made every race have the same century age and rate of aging, that's what they're referring to.

[zenith dust]

Not every race. the generic lore agnostic version of around half the races

[iron saffron]

Elves may reach physical maturity around their second decade like humans but they don't consider themselves adults until they're 100-years-old.

[spark haven]

"maturity" is a complicated concept

and not binary

[iron saffron]

Did they retcon tortle's age? Don't they live for only 40 or 50 years?

[spark haven]

you dont' get your license until you're 16, you can't smoke until you're 18, can't drink until you're 21

etc

[iron saffron]

18 here in Canada for alcohol.

[fathom rapids]

The explanation text from Monsters of the Multiverse makes exceptions for elves and dwarves:

The typical life span of a player character in the D&D multiverse is about a century, assuming the character doesn’t meet a violent end on an adventure. Members of some races, such as dwarves and elves, can live for centuries. If typical members of a race can live longer than a century, that fact is mentioned in the race’s description.

[crude blaze]

Yeah, MotM essentially says that everybody ages at the same rate as human unless explicitly mentioned otherwise. Elves and dwarves, for example, are explicitly mentioned to live longer.

Oop, Colossus already said that lol. Discord is being wonky for me today.

[stuck breach]

ROAD TRIP!!

[crude blaze]

(In the meantime, in my US state, you can enlist in the army at 18 but can’t buy a pack of cigarettes until 21. Not that that’s lore related, I just think it’s ridiculous.)

[stuck breach]

Well, you shouldn't be smoking anyway

[zinc birch]

Is Acheron basically like the afterlife for Orcs and Goblins?

[iron saffron]

I believe so.

[zinc birch]

Like I realize that the Outer Planes aren’t exactly afterlives but they basically function as such right?

[stuck breach]

Yes

When you die, your soul goes to some outer plane

[zinc birch]

Like living creatures can visit but they also function as afterlives right?

Which is why some of them have dramatic environmental effects on the players?

[zinc birch]

I wonder what type of people become Modrons

[stuck breach]

I'm not sure anyone does, though as the Lawful Neutral plane, one would generally assume that lawful neutral-aligned souls might go there

Though I'm also not sure whether modrons are made from souls of the living or not

[zinc birch]

That’s why it’s confusing because the Outer Planes also have native inhabitants

[stuck breach]

yep

It helps if you embrace some degree of contradiction

Physics and stuff might work in the Prime Material plane, but really doesn't have to in the outer planes at all

[zinc birch]

Like the weird ways gravity works in Gehenna and Pandemonium

[stuck breach]

I mean who becomes a god just to have to obey the laws of physics like a mortal mook?

[zinc birch]

so basically whenever this stuff is unclear in the lore it should be treated as a question of theology?

[stuck breach]

I don't just mean physics I mean that beyond the Prime Material plane, contradiction can just exist

It's like trying to make sense of myth - if you're stuck on it all being neatly consistent and making sense, you're gonna have a hard time. The outer planes should have an element of that (imo)

[iron saffron]

Gods control how things work in their own domains.

The older editions' Manual of the Planes goes into more detail on the environment (including gravity) of the various planes (and layers for specific planes like Hell and Abyss)

[zinc birch]

Gotcha this is helpful from a writing perspective.

[zinc birch]

Yeah I think I have a decent idea how gravity works on most of the planes though Acheron still confuses me.

[stuck breach]

Like you know how there's basically two versions of the diagram of the planes - the tree version and the wheel version; well, in my world, both are true simultaneously

[zinc birch]

Like is gravity just perpendicular to each cube face? What happens at the edges of the cubes.

[stuck breach]

Who said anythign about it being a cube?

[zinc birch]

Yeah, the tree one is SUPER confusing to me.

[zinc birch]

Like the Cubes floating in the first layer I mean

[stuck breach]

The tree version is based on the Yggdrasil of Norse mythology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil

[iron saffron]

The Forgotten Realms had the Great Tree cosmology until 5E which it got switched over to the Great Wheel cosmology

4E's cosmology was simplified but it reverted back to the Great Wheel in 5E.

[stuck breach]

Oh, I see, I missed somethign

[zinc birch]

I get in general how it works but the actual specifics are way more confusing to me although some aspects of the wheel are confusing too.

[iron saffron]

Such as?

[zinc birch]

And also the Spellplague is a whole can of worms that baffles me

[iron saffron]

Well, the Spellplague is FR specific and was meant to narratively reboot the magic systems between 4E and 5E.

[zinc birch]

Oh ok so pre Spellplague World Tree is actually more popular?

[iron saffron]

It was the default cosmology in FR.

The Great Wheel was the default cosmology in Greyhawk, which was the main campaign setting in D&D until 3E.

[stuck breach]

If you look at diagrams of the cosmology in 1e books, it's only the Great Wheel

[zinc birch]

The Wheel Cosmology is a lot easier for me to understand but it does have SOME confusing parts

[stuck breach]

Like what?

[iron saffron]

Such as?

[zinc birch]

Like mainly how the borders of different planes interact

especially going in and out of the wheel depth wise

[stuck breach]

Are there borders?

[zinc birch]

Like does the elemental chaos just directly segue into the Outer Planes?

[iron saffron]

Usually it's just the top layers that may interact. The Lower Planes were connected by the River Styx, for example.

But for the most part the planes are contained within themselves and not touching "neighbouring" planes.

[zinc birch]

Yeah the lower planes mostly interact in a fairly neat albeit extremely surreal way

[stuck breach]

The Elemental Planes are part of the Inner Planes and are separated from the Outer Planes by the Astral Plane

[zinc birch]

oohhhh so only the lower planes interact like that

[iron saffron]

In 4E, Hell was depicted as a planet and each layer was a deeper layer of the planet with Nessus at its core.

[stuck breach]

The elemental planes specifically interact at their borders forming the quasi-elemental planes

[zinc birch]

oh I was forgetting the astral plane, so there is no real direct path from the elemental to the Outer Planes?

[iron saffron]

Nope.

[stuck breach]

There crtainly could be

[zinc birch]

Ahh thanks this is helpful.

[iron saffron]

Astral Plane/Sea is the only way to get to the outer planes (without portals/gates) from the Material Plane

[zinc birch]

And also is there any direct way to reach the Negative/Positive planes or Far Realms?

[zinc birch]

So you could only travel directly across the realms via astral projection?

[stuck breach]

idk specifically about the Great Tree of FG, but in Norse Mythology, the Bifrost (rainbow bridge) is one way to get from Midguard (PM Plane) to what one would call the outer planes in D&D. Such a thing could certainly exist in D&D (and does in the 1e book Deities & Demigods)

[iron saffron]

Realms?

[zinc birch]

Sorry planes my bad

[iron saffron]

Yes, but you risk having your Silver Cord severed while in the Astral Plane/Sea.

[zinc birch]

I am a bit dyslexic and Planes/Realms confuses me because there are also some realms too or at least one.

[stuck breach]

If you take the word "planes" literally, then each might be infinite in area and have no borders as such

[zinc birch]

That is starting to make sense, so basically the physical connections like the river styx sort of work in a way that defies normal conceptions of how reality should work

Or how you can travel directly from Pazunia to I think Pandemonium?

[stuck breach]

Yes, I've been trying to get at the idea that in the Outer Planes, "reality" might not work the same was as we'd expect it to in the Prime Material Plane where we live.

That's what I was trying to get at with the "physics" talk

[zinc birch]

It makes more sense now. So it’s sort of designed to have a degree of unknowability

[stuck breach]

Right, because it's literally beyond the mortal realm

[iron saffron]

They're alien dimensions and typically not hospitable to mortals.

[stuck breach]

It's literally beyond reality, outside of normal reality

You don't just drive to Gehenna like you'd drive to Bakersfield, unless you've got a really magic vehicle (which certainly isn't out of the question)

How do you wrap your mind around something which can't be wrapped?

[iron saffron]

The city of Sigil is interesting as it's literally the centre of the multiverse (at least in the Outer Planes) and it's the inside of a massive "donut"

[zinc birch]

Yeah and it has portals everywhere.

I guess people travel through Sigil a lot.

Like that’s probably how Mindflayers get to the Far Realms right?

[iron saffron]

You have to find the door and its key first.

[viscid jackal]

keep in mind also elemental chaos started in 4e. it was never called that before and i think how thy were presented was a bit different (they still touched each other and created para and quasi elemental planes)

[iron saffron]

Mindflayers were originally from the Far Realm.

[zinc birch]

Can you actually climb up to Sigil from the Outlands?

[viscid jackal]

mind flayer lore changes over the years. far realm, as a thing came in later. 2e was first mention of it IIRC

[zinc birch]

oooo I thought they were humans who transformed there.

[iron saffron]

If you somehow get outside, sure you can explore the Outlands.

[viscid jackal]

no. the spire goes forever. its some type of enigma . from the bottom u cant reach it BUT u can always see it

[zinc birch]

Ahhh makes sense

[iron saffron]

No, mindflayers use sentient humanoids as hosts for their tadpoles to create new mindflayers.

[zinc birch]

And you can actually walk to the Outlands from some of the planes right?

[viscid jackal]

also, and i doubt they will bring this into 5e version, but the radius around it in the outlands is affected by the spire. the spire itself is one the strongest anti magic fields in the D&D multiverse. even gods lose power near it IIRC and it radiates out. the planescape set came witha map that showed distance from teh spire and the impacts on spells, items, etc

[zinc birch]

I guess being in the more material planes causes Mindflayers to become more human in the same way that the opposite happens in reverse.

[iron saffron]

Yeah, gods can't entire Sigil.

[viscid jackal]

IIRC u need to use the gatetowns. the outlands is like a place floating in the center of exstence or something

u cant actually walk to the outlands from anywhere

[iron saffron]

I never read that before.

[zinc birch]

ahh makes sense

[zinc birch]

Ahhh ok, I was just assuming it must work both ways but that makes sense too.

[viscid jackal]

there are wizards/invenstors that walk around/live in the outlands, in walking homes/fortresses, constructs 🙂

[zinc birch]

Oh so the neutralizing effect of the Outlands isn’t in 5e?

[viscid jackal]

no, im saying. tey wont be able to bring over all the detail from 2e... so i would expect stuff like that, would be dropped

[iron saffron]

The Far Realm is the alien dimension beyond the Inner/Outer Planes — it's everything that's Cthulhuian...

[zinc birch]

So you can really only get there through portals? (Not that you would want to go)

[iron saffron]

We'll have to wait for the 5E Planescape to see how much WotC screws it up...

[viscid jackal]

dont say that 😛

[zinc birch]

Oh is that something planned?

[viscid jackal]

u know im still holding out hope that TOny D wil be back for the art/layout

[iron saffron]

...if Van Richten's and 5E Spelljammer is of any indication...

[zinc birch]

is the Spelljammer universe connected to the fantasy universe? Or separate.

[iron saffron]

Yes, it's coming out later this year and I'm very iffy about it after Van Richten's and 5E Spelljammer...

[iron saffron]

Spelljammer is just space travel between the Crystal Spheres of the Material Plane.

[viscid jackal]

its all connected. lore hascahnged and retconned sevarl times over the decades but yeah. if u start on aworld like toril or krynn, u could travel to anotehr location via a spelljammer and then end up in the planes etc

[iron saffron]

Crystal Sphere is basically the star system of each campaign setting like Toril, Athas, Krynn, and Oerth

[zinc birch]

Oh cool so this would actually be the perfect time to do Planescape writing?

So basically you can send Spelljammers to the Outer Planes?

[iron saffron]

5E Spelljammer screwed things up by saying spelljamming ships use the Astral Sea to travel between worlds despite the fact that the Astral Sea connects the Material Plane with the Outer Planes.

[iron saffron]

Originally not in 2E Spelljammer (see my post above)

[stuck breach]

Many of these concepts have been reinterpreted and redefined from edition to edition

[viscid jackal]

and in older lore (2e era). athas (darksuN)was the only one where its sphere was somehow sealed up or something due to some void around it. so u couldnt travel via spelljammer or direct teleport spells. only gateways from sigil, the world serpent inn and i think infinite staircase could go there (of course DM can do whatever tehy want)

[zinc birch]

So it wasn’t possible before but is possible now?

[iron saffron]

That's why there was a lot of complaints by the fans of 2E Spelljammer (including myself) about replacing the Phlogiston with the Astral Sea.

[iron saffron]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

I'm ignoring the 5E Spelljammer Astral Sea stuff.

5E Spelljammer is a waste of money. Get the 2E Spelljammer boxed set instead.

[stuck breach]

I think an important point to make is that the writers of D&D over the course of the past 50-ish years have not tried to make it all consistent. It's not really their intention to do so in continuing the game.

[zinc birch]

Reason I ask is because thematically material creatures have basically no chance against the Outer Planes bit it seems like Spelljammers would have a slightly better chance to contend with the underworld because of their stronger magic/tech

[iron saffron]

4E flipped a lot of things in lore only to have 5E reverted a lot of it back.

[stuck breach]

It's not that they're "failing" to keep it consistent, they're really not even trying to do so in any sort of canonical way. It's not a priority.

It's not a part of the design philosophy

[zinc birch]

So basically if you want to write about the lore the main thing is just having the characters reflect the game lore in terms of abilities and stats and stuff?

[stuck breach]

D&D is a game to explore fantasy worlds. It's not trying to present one fantasy world which you're "supposed" to play in.

[iron saffron]

Yeah, each edition's lore changes. Just think of D&D's lore as DC Comics... different writers over the decades add their own personal touch to the lore and every so often there's a "reboot" to try to fix the mess in the canon.

[zinc birch]

I really appreciate the fact that Marvel at least has a consistent numbering system for their alternate universes

[stuck breach]

All the lore in the game is there for you to use as creative fodder for your game. It's not presenting some canonical monument you're expected to follow strictly.

[iron saffron]

That's what the narrative "reboots" between editions, such as the Time of Troubles and the Spellplague, were about. Mostly to explain why magic functioned differently in the new edition.

[stuck breach]

You can use as much or as little of the published lore as you want, tweak it, invert it, support it, or abolish it. Do what makes your game fun.

If you want to have warforged in the Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk, then you go right ahead.

[iron saffron]

I use the Forgotten Realms setting and I pretty much ignored all of the 4E lore changes to FR. As the DM of you table, you decide which lore to keep, remove, or add.

[stuck breach]

If you want to ban gnomes and say they've never existed in your Greyhawk, then you go right ahead. If you want to say that mind flayers are the result of beholder day dreams, then you go right ahead

[runic cave]

That’s the opposite of lore discussion

[stuck breach]

I have to date, never run a game in any of the published settings, but I've stolen plenty of the lore

[iron saffron]

4E made gnomes into monsters...

[stuck breach]

But it puts the game's lore into perspective. I think there's value in clarifying that you're not beholden to the lore for the sake of your game.

[zinc birch]

Does the setting matter for writing campaigns matter in terms of picking a campaign setting that is popular?

[runic cave]

True, but if ppl are asking here it’s for official lore

[runic cave]

Nah, you can make all ur campaigns in nentir

[stuck breach]

Not everyone gets what every channel is for. There are many people who go to #dnd-rules for example who aren't looking for a discussion of RAW, but looking for how to interpret/use a rule. Yes, those people aren't fully understanding what the channel's stated purpose is, but it's reasonable of them to think what they're thinking.

[iron saffron]

I use the Forgotten Realms because Faerun (and Toril overall) is diverse enough in its lands for the PCs to explore. There's like 40 years of lore to pick and choose from, so that's less work for me as the DM (and the players can go online to research the stuff themselves without me explaining it to them).

[stuck breach]

If someone is trying to understand how THE LORE works for the sake of their game, it's entirely reasonable for them to go to the Lore channel

And clarifying how things work is better, IMO, then chasing them off

[runic cave]

“For discussion of the lore of various official dnd settings”

[zinc birch]

I am a creative writer so I want to learn about this from a writer’s perspective in terms of what lore works best for storywriting or campaign writing and which settings I should use as a starting point for a Planescape story.

If this is the wrong channel for that I apologize.

[stuck breach]

How is the use of lore not "discussion of the lore?"

[runic cave]

Well planescape’s starting zone is sigil, so would suggest sigil
You could also use FR cause that’s compatible

[runic cave]

No this is right

[iron saffron]

Eh, you asked about lore of the Outer Planes. No worries.

[runic cave]

“Official”

[zinc birch]

I guess if I do get to the point of actually writing something I should wait for the new Planescape 5e book to come out before finalizing anything

[runic cave]

You’re probably good without it, 5e “doesn’t do” lore

[unkempt merlin]

Well. It does. It just doesn't do lore the same

[iron saffron]

You would be better off finding the 2E Planescape books. They're more detailed than the 5E book would ever be.

[unkempt merlin]

5e does lore in far fewer books because 5e does far fewer books

[iron saffron]

5E tends to skim over the details to save page count.

[unkempt merlin]

For every 1 book with lore 5e has, older editions had 3 or more

Usually more

[runic cave]

“Only Asmodeus Tieflings… Nevermind ppl didn’t like that, so we are changing it with no explanation”

[iron saffron]

2E and 3E had a glut of splat books that were DM-centric. 5E avoids DM-centric books.

[unkempt merlin]

Plenty of stuff in older editions changed with no explanations as well, that's sorta missing the point of what I'm saying

[zinc birch]

But like what if for example I write a story about a mortal party traveling to the Palace of Wee Jas but then 5e decides that Wee Jas doesn’t exist anymore?

Just ignore the changes?

[runic cave]

HAHA like the IEN!

[mossy dust]

yes, ignore them

[runic cave]

And the phlo!

And crystal spheres!

And the inhuman wars!

And the scro!

[iron saffron]

You ignore it for your table.

[unkempt merlin]

Tldr expecting the same amount of lore in 1 book as you would get in 5 books in older editions is kinda silly

[iron saffron]

Are you planning to publish this?

[zinc birch]

Got it. I’m not really trying to DM actual games, moreso write some material that other people could use in campaigns but maybe I have to try and DM a game to write a story.

[iron saffron]

Publishing it would fall under the guidelines of DMs Guild as you would be using WotC owned IPs.

[zinc birch]

Maybe. But not for money. I know WotC is pretty hands on about their IP.

[runic cave]

So how I take it is that things still exist unless something says otherwise. Like the phlo in my spelljammer campsign, the spheres aren’t “deleted” I just say that the astral see is between wildspace and the crystal spheres

[iron saffron]

People have published on DMs Guild supplements to 5E books because the 5E books were very light on rules and lore. Those supplements added more rules and lore.

[zinc birch]

That makes sense.

[runic cave]

So unless the palace is actually stated as not being there, it’s there

[viscid jackal]

"Im a monster" ...

[runic cave]

Because 5e doesn’t even care enough to retcon things “out” it just doesn’t mention things and doesn’t elaborate

[unkempt merlin]

This is intentional

Or more specifically, unless it's stated as not being there, it can be there if you want to use old lore

[iron saffron]

Creative laziness. They also just dig up memorable NPCs from 2E and 3E eras (that new players have no idea who they are) instead of creating new ones.

[runic cave]

And have them flop about pantsless

[iron saffron]

Mirt and Volo (both humans) should have died a long time ago and yet they're alive in 5E...

[viscid jackal]

i wonder if Rule of Three will be running his bar in sigil in the 5e version ...

[zinc birch]

Got you. I appreciate all the feedback.

[iron saffron]

He was in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits

[runic cave]

I thought mirt was frozen like boo’s sidekick

[viscid jackal]

yeah but taht was 3e era... 2e-3e in many ways were continuous (not everything of course)

[stuck breach]

The thing is, official lore, while published by the game's IP owners, has no authority over your game, nor does it purport to.
It's "official" because it's published by the company who makes the game, it's not "official" in the sense that you have to use it.
That said, the general purpose of this channel is discussing the official lore as written more so than how to apply it in your game.

[iron saffron]

So the Steve Rogers explanation...

[viscid jackal]

haha

[zinc birch]

And I dunno if there is a better role I can choose than DM but more than DMing a game I just find the Planescape setting really cool and want to write about it and it seems like it’s a subject some people may be interested in reading about. But I am interested in rules and specifics because it affects how one would approach writing about it.

[viscid jackal]

Ninja - dont mind OldMan - he's jaded 😛 been gaming too long 😛

[iron saffron]

I just see official lore as a foundation. You can use it, build upon it, or ignore it altogether.

[runic cave]

Not sure if literally or figuratively, but I at least know that’s how boo’s sidekick is still alive, and I think that’s what was up with mirt too

[iron saffron]

And that's my biggest complaint about 5E is that WotC barely has any official lore so you can't really ignore it if there's nothing there.

[runic cave]

“Tieflings aren’t purple”, that’s it that’s the lore

[viscid jackal]

well i guess they want ppl to have to mnake up their own instead of relying on their books

[iron saffron]

Either Volo or Mirt was stuck inside a magic axe, I think

[viscid jackal]

tieflings have always been any colours 🙂

well. before i mean

[runic cave]

Hehe

[iron saffron]

I believe that 2E tieflings were more demonic looking (it wasn't set yet that they had devil ancestry). I think they were in mentioned in Planescape?

[stuck breach]

I thougt Minsc was Boo's sidekick, or is that just the title of the book?

[runic cave]

No you’re right, just now the only one that matters is boo “haha hamster funny”

[iron saffron]

"Go for the eyes!"

[stuck breach]

The earlier descriptions of tieflings had them looking mostly human except that they might have one or two traits which outed their heritage, could be horns, cloven hooves, the scent of brimstone, or just bad vibes

[viscid jackal]

no. but their traits could be anything really. they even had a table u could choose or randomize aspects. like special resistances, wings i think, tails, etc. they were planetouched via the lower planes or lower planar beings but anything goes

yes what DMG said above.

[iron saffron]

Yeah, I remember their looks were very randomized.

[stuck breach]

Though tiefling artwork has almost always depicted them as devilfolk

[runic cave]

Until the thing

[viscid jackal]

(but those tables i mentioned r NOT in the core PS boxed set..they are in...IIRC< dragon magazine and then another version in the...planeswalkers guide i think)

it was more choose how u want to look, speak, whatever and run with it. but they werent meant to look full on demon/devil like a balor or pit fiend

[zinc birch]

I actually don’t remember Tieflings in planescape but I missed a lot

Are they half fiends?

[viscid jackal]

like gamora COULD be a tiefling. different vibrant skin colour (in D&D terms back then)

[runic cave]

more “fiendtouched”

[iron saffron]

Tieflings first appeared in the Planescape Campaign Setting. They could have various looks, such as goat-like legs, horns, etc

[viscid jackal]

(even though she doesnt have pointy ears or a tail). mantis defiantely could be

planetouched

[zinc birch]

So related question, how did Iggwilv give birth to Iuz without dying?

[iron saffron]

Magic

[viscid jackal]

she was a powerful witch

while she was human. she isnt a normal human anymore

(although i dont know what 5e did with her. i mean in 2e/3e era0

[zinc birch]

so basically she is so magical that she doesn’t die in childbirth like a normal human giving birth to a half-fiend?

[viscid jackal]

i dont know if everyone dies from half-fiends

unless thats a 5e thing?

[mossy dust]

One thing about how 5e skates around the lore is by stating all previous versions of the lore were from a "historian's perspective" (or similar), ie: bound to be inaccuracies.

[iron saffron]

Iuz looks very human from the illustrations I've seen (he's usually depicted as a very old man)

[viscid jackal]

half fiends can look human

[zinc birch]

I guess Iuz is also a special case because Grazzt has Devil lineage?

[viscid jackal]

that was started in 4e.... before he was just a demon

[zinc birch]

huh it kinda makes sense though

I mean he is the least chaotic of the Major Demon Lords

[viscid jackal]

why? he's still quite chaotic. yes he plans more, thinks more, etc. but he also explodes at times, etc. at least before. im thinking with so many, they just wanted to make each demon lord as unqiue as they could

[mystic merlin]

Graz’zt does not have devil heritage.

[viscid jackal]

so they figured 1 or 2 of them arent as wild or nuts as demogorgon 🙂

[mystic merlin]

The description of him in fourth edition is an outlier for the Nentir Vale setting.

[viscid jackal]

i think 4e said he was a fallen devil or someting

[zinc birch]

I guess he just seems less chaotic compared to Demogorgon and Orcus because both of them are so deranged

[mystic merlin]

Fourth edition said a lot of things. About tieflings for example, but here we are also going “no every other edition overrides it”

[viscid jackal]

right

[viscid jackal]

i think the most detail of him is in the 2e FR adventuer " For Duty and Deity" (its a cross adventure that goes to the planes/planescape as well)

[zinc birch]

Oh ok, I was a little confused because some sources said he was a son of Asmodeus

[mystic merlin]

I dunno. demogorgon and Orcus both had actual long term plans they executed with precision and skill.
Graz’zt is known as a patron of lamias and witches because he likes adult sleep overs and it slows his plans immeasurably.

I think we make too many snap judgements based off of memes and surface details.

[viscid jackal]

fair point. savage tide was a fairly well laid out plan by demo

[stuck breach]

I hold in my hand the 1e World of Greyhawk Guide book (1983), it describes Iuz thusly:
"Iuz, old Iuz of fearbabe talk, may be human - or may once have been human, but this is not known for certain one way or another. He has ruled the lands from the Howling Hills south to the Lake of Whyestil for ages longer than any man can live"

[viscid jackal]

and the events of Dead Gods defiantely goes into the planning 101 handbook for Orcus

[zinc birch]

True I guess all three are chaotic in their own ways

Like Orcus does make plans and in some ways he almost more like a god of the undead than a Demon but at the same time his reckless and reflexive hatred of all living things leads him to do some pretty crazy stuff.

[viscid jackal]

in older lore he was a god. so was demogorgon.

lesser gods IIRC

[zinc birch]

Like his whole plan with Mechanus, yes it made sense but it also caused total chaos on that plane.

[mystic merlin]

The god of undeath and corpulence doing undead and life hating things being considered crazy but the demon king of vanity and flying into fits who was sidelined by a mortal wizard because she flattered him not being crazy tells us more about the metric being used than the fiends themselves. 😛

[zinc birch]

That makes sense. They seem more like an actual deity than most of the other taanari.

[zinc birch]

It’s logical by his logic but the consequences are so immediately destructive and unpredictable that I think it’s easy to see why people call him chaotic.

But you’re right Grazzt is just as bad.

[viscid jackal]

but then orcus was killed. and came back but when he came back he didnt have his full power anymore and wasnt a god. demogorgon was metnioned as a god twice. in 2 of the 2e era supplements. 1 planescape and 1. forgot name. monster myths or something. as of 3e, they dropped all taht and never mention them as gods and do not give them the god rules (although it says for beings of that power u can easily give them power like that if u need)

[zinc birch]

Grazzt just seemed more orderly I guess because of his palaces and allies and such.

[zinc birch]

Makes sense, the border between god and Plane ruler is kind of vague at times.

Like I really have no idea wtf is up with Lolth

Or Asmodeus either

[viscid jackal]

their lore changed over teh years as well

[mystic merlin]

Why are we evaluating how logical a manifestation of evil chaos is? Why is that relevant to demon lore?

“He caused a bunch of chaos though”
That’s the goal isn’t it? Ruining things for others and taking advantage himself?

[viscid jackal]

r u new to the internet? 🙂

[mystic merlin]

No, just fatigued by the idea it has to be this way 😉

[zinc birch]

Yeah the more I read about the alignment stuff the more I think It should be a vague suggestion and not a rule.

Sorry I am very new to all this.

[mossy dust]

It isn't a "rule" in 5e, not really.

Not like it was in 3.X

[iron saffron]

They're both gods.
Lolth is a lesser/intermediate god.
Asmodeus is a greater (fallen) god.

[mossy dust]

(Don't know about 4e, I skipped 4e entirely)

[zinc birch]

So he is the snake guy?

[viscid jackal]

it varies. but yes, i guess.

[iron saffron]

That's implied in 4E lore.

[viscid jackal]

in 2e he was teh most powerful. 3e made him. basicalyl like the devil with a hint at something more. 4e i dont remember. not sure what 5e says

[iron saffron]

It was suggested that his humanoid form is just an avator while the true form is that of a massive snake.

[zinc birch]

Like some cases it seems clear like Mechanus does indeed seem like an embodiment of order, but in other cases it’s less clear.

[mystic merlin]

Asmodeus is not actually a snake.

Planescape specifically published a book saying he was, and the fiendish codex (which is an unreliable narration, as seen by mis characterizing known facts about the gods presented and contradicting other books which agree with each other but not the codex) implies this may still be true by noting that Nessus looks like a great snakelike thing fell into it.

It’s important to remember though that despite what planescape tried to say, setting-specific lore is setting specific and we shouldn’t mix them too much or we wind up being an unreliable wiki!

[zinc birch]

So basically the best plan for writing is to try and stay consistent within one version?

[viscid jackal]

well that is what 2e tried to do. merge it all into one multiverse. retconing stuff to one lorebase.

[mossy dust]

I should have phrased that as "character alignment has no rule". Planar alignments are absolutely integral to the plane, but again, that isn't really a rule so much as a fundamental principle.

[mystic merlin]

The immediate problem with suggesting Asmodeus is actually a fallen elder thing is that he is also canonically and demonstrably an Angel who slew his master-god and took over for the sake of Law, and his evil is the manifestation of subverting the natural order and not what we would consider evil in the usual sense at all.

[zinc birch]

So like basically the planes DO roughly embody the alignments they are assigned to but the actual characters within those planes may be more variable?

[viscid jackal]

what meek means is. the PS devs in that time tried to merge everything under 1 lore. planescape. stuff tehy wrote, basically said in the books (no joke). that the people on the worlds (toril, krynn, etc) dont know how the multiverse really works. THIS is how it really is. that way, u can easily use planescape as a central settng and travel anywhre and it all fits nicely in a box (for teh most part) BUT to do that, it really desstroyed tons of other stories, modules, etc

[mystic merlin]

Twice! We have both planescape and spelljammer trying to say “I am the correct true oversetting and other settings are wrong and subservient” which was frustrating. XD

[zinc birch]

That origin story is really poetic too and works great in terms of the political aspects.

[viscid jackal]

yeah. PS came after so it adjusted SJ as well to bring it in line

i for one like the PS rewrite so i use PS as my central "how everyting works" to keep it straight

[zinc birch]

Huh, the lore history is…a lot.

[viscid jackal]

(also my players do lots of plane hopping, interacting with gods, etc so it helps me to have a central lore i can easily use)

[mystic merlin]

For your home game? No, go nuts. But be clear about the topic; “n my game”, “in forgotten realms 3e”, “in fifth edition” and “in planescape 3e” are all different.

If you mix and match them as if they’re objective and not subjective you wind up with errors like the fallen Angel who’s actually not fallen but corrupted but not actually he’s a snake but also no one knows what he is, all being Correct™️ and they can’t be all correct at once.

[mossy dust]

Sure. But consider that most of the "characters" within a plane are probably made of that plane and should fall within that plane's expectations. However not all "characters" on a plane are from that plane.

There are actually (optional) rules though where a plane's alignment can change a character's alignment. For example, spend enough time in Avernus and you can turn LE.

[mystic merlin]

In my home game Asmodeus is simultaneously dead and alive, due to a temporal fracturing and bifurcation of timelines experienced by one of the PCs when they both did and did not fight asmodeus because of various hubris.

[zinc birch]

Got it. I am trying to learn about all of it so I guess I have to just keep in mind that stories change depending on the version.

[mossy dust]

DC 10 Wisdom save daily, on a failed save your alignment becomes LE. 1d4 days later the change is permanent-ish

[mystic merlin]

But like, I can’t say that’s true for D&D the property cuz it’s not. I just have to be clear what we’re discussin’ so folks can contribute without going “what? No, he’s not dead he’s a giant snake in the pit” 🙂

[iron saffron]

Planescape goes into more detail on the power of the clerics' spells as they move further away from their gods' plane.

[zinc birch]

Are there cases where demons have become LE from fighting too long in Avernus?

[viscid jackal]

that book,. the guide to hell taht came at the end of 2e , basically said asmodeus (real name ahriman) was one of hte first beings in the mutliverse. along with jazirian, and a few more. Die vecna die added the lady of pain to them. and there was a being called the serpent that some books imply is asmodeus but is later said to be. that magic god in greyhawk. starts with an M. that god is just n aspect of the serpent. they gave them the name the ancients or the ancient brethren. they craeted most of the multiverse, the planes, etc. all the overgods, gods etc came after them. the PS devs were apperntly goingto expand all this lore in future products after Dead Gods, Guide to Hell, etc but then wotc bought tsr, etc and the rest is history

[raven needle]

why is the internet full of hatred for the sword coast as a campaign setting? I understand it's a very "normal" swords and sorcery setting, but isn't that one of the things d&d does best and a big draw for why people play d&d?

[iron saffron]

They usually don't survive long enough to be there to be influenced.

[mossy dust]

it is overused

[iron saffron]

It's boring — 5E has been focused on the Sword Coast when Faerun and Toril itself has many more diverse cultures/nations to explore. Candlekeep Mysteries dipped into other Faerun lands.

My current campaign takes place along the Chultan peninsula, the city of Tashluta, and now Halruaa. I just want to get away from the European-influenced Sword Coast.

[zinc birch]

It seems like the planar effects aren’t always about changing character Orientation though. Like Acheron doesn’t make you more lawful but it can turn you into stone.

Or Beastlands turns you into a talking animal.

[viscid jackal]

savage tide right?

the Remebered Realms 🙂

[iron saffron]

I hope my campaign survives because I lost half of my players (3 out of 6)

[zinc birch]

I am gonna be honest out of all the DND settings I know the least about the actual material plane.

[mystic merlin]

That one annoys me because the serpent was, per original designer, a psychosis induced belief because of Vecna’s ego and megalomania/narcissism. Changing it to “no he really is beloved of the primordial magic, yoo gais” is so eye rolling I need a gif from the Beetlejuice movie for it

[zinc birch]

It’s so big.

[viscid jackal]

the final dragon still said it could refer to the sperent or asmodeus or some mental state

[mystic merlin]

The forgotten realms are a very broad, rich, and varied setting.

We don’t get that. We get the Hollywood stage play version of the most well known parts of the forgotten realms with anything interesting filed down to avoid being prescriptive.

[raven needle]

I guess I read the critiques as if they apply to all of Faerun. I guess it's totally fair that the sword coast in particular is overused. On the other hand, for RP purposes, a coast is a coast, and a mountain a mountain. but I understand people want the published d&d content to move away from phandalin and baldur's gate.

[zinc birch]

That’s another thing. The Asmodeus as Fallen Angel is nice because it shows him more as a hyper intelligent schemer rather than as some ancient powerful god.

[mystic merlin]

That it’s ambiguous and not objectively “this is a flaw, he is wrong and misled” is my complaint

[zinc birch]

Like he is obviously super powerful either way but it’s cooler if he got that power himself rather than being born to it.

[mystic merlin]

Indeed. Only problem is, there’s three version fo the fallen Angel stuff; one for the third edition implied setting, one for the forgotten realms, and one for the Nentir vale!

And I’m not even sure the realms had that before he snookered something godhood out of someone

[merry scarab]

Because I am old and have not looked at the books in a decade, so I can’t remember right off hand…
Where is/was Undermountain located?

[mystic merlin]

Mm. I think conceiving of a spiritual being as born rather than “the concept of deceit woke up, got dressed, and went down to the dmv to get it’s name changed to asmodeus” is going to be unhelpful

A demon is a primordial flux of evil that only has physical existence through the manifest biases of mortals, usually— that’s why they had numerical categorizations. They didn’t have names or clear forms so much as magic users could get consistent results summoning “A type V demon” instead of summoning “a Marilith” (which is good because marilith is, originally, the name of one of the strongest type whatever demons)

[iron saffron]

Waterdeep

[merry scarab]

Not Sword Coast?

Or is that more a region?

[iron saffron]

Waterdeep is a city in the Sword Coast region.

[merry scarab]

Ah ok

[mystic merlin]

Waterdeep is— yeah

It’s to the south, I think?

[iron saffron]

There's a 5E campaign called "Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage" which takes place in Undermountain

[mystic merlin]

No it’s northward. Okay

[zinc birch]

Is it true that Asmodeus gets a lot of power from a splinter of the Shard of Ultimate Evil? Is the Shard of Ultimate Evil actually an accepted lore thing?

[merry scarab]

Undermountain was my favorite dungeon crawl

[merry scarab]

Wait really they brought it back?

[iron saffron]

Yes, that's what I posted.

[merry scarab]

Hmmmmm

[iron saffron]

I never played the original Undermountain super module.

[merry scarab]

It was maddening

But fun

[mystic merlin]

That’s going to be setting & edition specific, I’m afraid.

[mossy dust]

You should try Frog God Games Rappan Athuk sometime...was a lot of fun

[mystic merlin]

Rappn Athuk is huge and looks like A Lot™️, I think I’ll never actually get my chance to run/play it

[viscid jackal]

but only partial maps. the maps in it are a fraction of whats in the 2e mega modules

[mossy dust]

Meek, I did in the PF version of it. We filled several pages of obituaries (the PF version included obituary pages). Had several TPKs, the players had a blast.

[merry scarab]

Undermountain used to intimidate DMs

[merry scarab]

Used be like 100+ floors with some floors leading to the same floor

[iron saffron]

I suspect dungeon crawls aren't popular with new 5E players as they seem death aversed...

Anyway, we're diverting into #dnd-elder-editions territory.

[merry scarab]

It is because of Undermountain I don’t just open doors willy nilly

[zinc birch]

Seems like this is the answer to everything. 😭

[mossy dust]

It is a matter of preparation. We went into it knowing that there would be a body count. We were enjoying that element. And the body count was mostly PvP due to the dungeon, so there was hilarity.

However I understand that the 5e version of Rappan Athuk is less deadly.

and agreed

[mystic merlin]

Well yeah. You’re basically asking about a genre as if it were one long series of books when it’s always been a tree with similarities and conflicts. 🙂

[mossy dust]

A way to think of D&D's lore is like this:
How many different reboots of Batman movies have there been?
Do they have anything to do with each other? no
Do they step on each other regarding lore? yes

But they are all the same topic.

[merry scarab]

Lol just had a random thought about the lore….
What if D&D lore books were all that survived for future archaeologist to dig up….

[zinc birch]

Yeah I didn’t properly understand that before now.

[zinc birch]

Yeah someone else made the comparison to DC comics. I guess that’s a good way to look at it.

[iron saffron]

Almost five decades of lore written by various writers over various editions and settings. It's a mess.

[mystic merlin]

I do want to say though, @zinc birch; a lot of people especially today and especially in this channel, are dunking on “oh d&d 5 is so dumbed down, oh there’s no lore, oh they removed this and changed that”

And like

Wouldn’t it be awesome if we accepted that current D&D is like X, and if you want more you can find it or make it up but the actual game is approachable

And isn’t full of old jackaninnies like myself and Airwreck who insist on a purity of lore continuity which doesn’t serve the game or audience,

Like? I think we old folks missed the boat.

[iron saffron]

Hey now

[zinc birch]

Well tbh from a writing perspective it seems like the simplest approach would be to just wait for Planescape 5e and write within that framework, all criticisms of 5e notwithstanding.

[mystic merlin]

I think the simpler realms is an amazing idea and we can see this because more people than ever are getting into D&D and loving it.

[iron saffron]

I may trash on 5E's lack of new lore but I have posted that lore is what you make of it at your table.

[mossy dust]

LOL, I don't care about the "purity of lore" and I've been playing/DMing for 4+decades

I accept the lore for what it is, each person's take.

[stuck breach]

As an "old folk" what you're describing has always been my approach to the game, I've never seen the game's lore as something which even should be viewed as "pure"

[iron saffron]

I certainly ignore 4E's FR lore...

[mossy dust]

Not like lore in other genres is all that cohesive either.

[zinc birch]

I just really like the Planescape setting and it seems like a decent community for fanwriting so it seems like a good way to practice my writing. So for the sake of simplicity just using the 5e lore may indeed be the best.

[mystic merlin]

And that's my biggest complaint about 5E is that WotC barely has any official lore so you can't really ignore it if there's nothing there.

Just saying, however we may mean it, our being crotchety about dnd lore shines through first, and our love of it second.

One thing about how 5e skates around the lore is by stating all previous versions of the lore were from a "historian's perspective" (or similar), ie: bound to be inaccuracies.

This happened in 2e from what I recall.

[iron saffron]

Again, I highly recommend you go through the 2E Planescape splat books. They're very informative of the Outer Planes.

[zinc birch]

Yeah I have been trying to find a way to get them. It seems like they are hard to come by.

[mystic merlin]

That’s kinda what I mean, yeah

I actually think fourth edition had a better cosmology by far, but that’s me 🙂

[zinc birch]

I mostly just want to write about the lower planes. They’re so freaking cool.

[mossy dust]

sacrilege! burn her at the stake! (kidding-ish)

[zinc birch]

My favorites based on what I have read so far have to be Carceri and Acheron.

[iron saffron]

The Forgotten Realms wiki is a great resource to start.

[zinc birch]

those articles have been my main resource so far

[mystic merlin]

Man if I had a nickel for every time I was burned at stake for being correct, I would have like seventy five cents by now

[mossy dust]

laughs

[mystic merlin]

I hard disagree

[mossy dust]

immune to fire eh?

[viscid jackal]

not 100 but the maps were much bigger than the 5e version. the 5e ones are like thecenter 1/6 or so of each map. and it doesnt have all the extra areas like madhogs castle, skullport, etc

[mystic merlin]

The wikis are written by people who are trying to consolidate all the changes across fifty years and make them smooth and continuous,