tank-balance-discussion

[jade cargo]

Sergietee#5898 has been warned.

[neat crescent]

It does have quite a significantly big gun(for its tier)

[pale kraken]

sturer emil is op nerf it pls

[stuck acorn]

Well i heard some people speaking of SU-100M1 as somewhat decent, as it actually has usable gun, but i've never in my entire life heard anybody that would describe SU-101 as not awful, i mean what advntage does this tank have? Just look at all of those old charts at #devs-answers on nearly every single one of them SU-101 is at the exact bottom. And since then it haven't received even a single buff, but only a completly undeserved nerf

This tank has literally nothing good about it other than pen and top speed which was also recently nerfed for literally no reason.

It has relatively low DPM, just okay alpha for a T8 TD, no armor what so ever, very low HP pool, decent accuracy on paper, but combined with bad gun handling and abmyssal aiming arc even this part of the tank just doesn't work.

Obviously as with every other tank you can sometimes farm players that just don't care about you and thus have some decent games, but it doesn't make it any less bad. This tank requires you to get into positions where you can shoot enemies without them shooting you back, but it doesn't have enough versatility to support such a playstyle. I mean if you try to think of the most unversatile tank in the entire game other than vindicator you would probably end up thinking about this one. It's just ironic at this point.

This line needs a searious rework to either give the T7 and 8 some proper armor and HP and let them act as frontline TDs as they are suposed to, or i don't even know.

These tanks just have so little use in the game for now that i can't even really think of any other solution to fix them.

@pale kraken dude, are you out of your mind? Sturer emil OP? I am an active user on this channel for quite a long time now i think, yet sturer emil must be one of those very few tanks that are so bad that i've never heard anybody calling them OP. I guess nothing can surprise me here anymore

[limber token]

this channel makes me laugh

[limpid atlas]

Can there be a buff to the turtle mk.1 to make it competitive with the AT15? Right now it's like 1000 less dpm and significantly worse armor for a tank with...slightly better mobility on a TD with a hull mounted gun? The turtle mk.1 is the only british hull mounted gun tank that doesn't play like the others. These tanks don't look like they are in the same tier. I'd probably nerf the AT15 very slightly and buff the Turtle 1 up to that slightly buffed level. There shouldn't be a 25%/1000DPM difference between what is basically 2 flavors of the same tank.

[stuck acorn]

Why would you use calibrated shells on any of these tanks?

Turtle mk.1 has higher alpha than AT15 so it deserves to have less DPM. DPM is only thing making AT15 somewhat decent. If you want to buff turtle, i'd rather go for some slight armor adjustments, we don't need another premium that is better than it's tech tree counterpart in every single scenario. Instead of going lazy way and turning it into AT15 but just better, buff something else and make it interesting

[stone drum]

Emil is actually pretty decent and I personally like it, if they would just buff the standard pen to 246 and buff the shell cap it would be fine imo.

@limpid atlas you realize the turtle still has extremely high dpm right...?

[limpid atlas]

Changing them both to loader seemed to be favorable for my argument because it makes the number discrepancy even larger despite being the same percentage difference either way. I didn't want to look like I was pumping the stats to suit my argument. I agree it deserves to have less DPM, but 25% less is way to large of a change for this kind of balancing. Especially when you consider neither of them have the mobility to really hide and peak and stuff effectively regardless. You mostly see the british hull mounts front face brawling or sitting in a second line position farming, in either of these cases dpm trumps alpha particularly. Right now the AT15 is better than the turtle in every single scenario, I want them to be equal, hence the entire language of my post "competitive" "to that level" etc. Right now the turtle mk1 doesn't fit it's archetype and makes no sense in context of the AT15.

[unique scaffold]

So many pointless 'filler' tanks in tech trees... (Chinese light tank line and CZ heavies both total waste of time tbh) ... Any solution to the notion that 80%of tech tree is redundant...when you keep producing tanks firing depleted uranium shells with little or penetration drop off over distance e.g smasher etc?

[prisma jetty]

Oh no, almost like the point of the tech tree is to grind these “filler” tanks until you get to the tier 10. And if you’re talking about HEAT shells, those aren’t depleted uranium lmao. They’re chemical warheads, meaning they don’t rely on the kinetic energy of the shell to penetrate, meaning that their penetration doesn’t drop off with range.

[unique scaffold]

Ref depleted uranium in jest...However there is a feeling amongst many veteran players that the game balance remains out of kilter... The problem remains with balance of tech tree tanks being by and large obsolete unless in support to t7 possibly 8.

[real bison]

a good chunk of tech tree tanks are actually quite competitive

[unique scaffold]

Well back to Enjoying the grind of the Chinese light tank line. Thanks for the chat chaps happy tanking.
Kind regards

[upbeat sphinx]

amx 30b is considered balanced, you can't get anything more on it
@stone drum IIRC, wg dev told us about that last Feb. druing the Q&A here on discord

[upbeat sphinx]

wrong gun
turtle mk 1 has no place really, jagdtiger 8.8 is way better

[stone drum]

AMX 30b (along with most tier X mediums) isn't even remotely balanced. It performs In the lower sect of tier X mediums, which are already a poorly performing class.

[upbeat sphinx]

PROVOCATION:
let's try to limit track restorations consumables to one per battle. and one consumable slot dedicated only to combat enhancing equipment( speed boost, adrenaline, and special consumable) why so?

1. limit the strength of the heavy class. Heavies with more frequent broken modules will stir up the meta, and enhance the importance of tracking opponents. repairing tracks twice is too helpful for escaping tight situations
2. make mediums more relevant, to allow them to circle tds even better, or heavies. If heavies or td can have high traverse speed, mediums should be able to counter them this way.
3. avoid stacking up consumables. For instance, shell reload boost and reticle calibration on FV4005. At the same time, improve the importance firefighting methods such as the crew shill or fire extinguisher,
4. make the setup more varied across all vehicles. I guess the majority of people are using the same 3 consumables on tanks without access to super consumables. repair kit, multi purpose repair kit, and adrenaline. With this change, maybe on certain tank fire extinguisher might be a viable choice, for Instance Fv215B. On cupola tanks
   commanders die frequently, crew healing kits might be useful again.

[autumn zodiac]

5. absolutely destroy any chance for all TDs

TDs don't have high traverse speeds they can still easily be circled for the most part by meds, Badger and E3 being an exception.

[remote oriole]

I don‘t feel sorry for TDs. But honestly in my mediums I feel a lot more like double repair saves me than in my heavies, because repairing the track in them is just a matter of convenience, while in a medium it‘s a matter of survival

[random frost]

Is this still available somewhere to read? (The Q&A)
My 30b hopes are stubborn lol.

[orchid notch]

hi guys

[tepid compass]

hey whoever is professional can you tell me how good the emil/emil 2/kranvagn is because eu recently got the emil and it’s slow but decent damage so i want to know a expert opinion

[burnt venture]

This really isn't all that true anymore, outside of only just a few very obvious exceptions like Jageroo and Mino. Circle of death is kind of dying out in this game, because since 9.1, WG has been basically buffing the traverse of TDs and slow tanks in general. Provided you don't begin the engagement with the medium already hugging your rear, most TDs aren't really too worth it to try to circle anymore even at close range.

If you see any TD at tier X, they've most likely gotten a traverse buff sometime in the recent past:

• E3 (plus alpha increase)
• E4 (actually got TWO traverse buffs, one in 10.0 and one in 9.1)
• 263 (with the armor change)
• 268 (massively buffed from 28 to 36 deg/s, plus an alpha increase)
• Grille
• Ho-Ri
• Badger
• 113 G FT

And then without considering other changes which make these "circleable" tanks much more dangerous at closer ranges in the first place:

• 183 and Jag getting accuracy buffs
• 113, 5A, IS-7, E-100, Kran, E5, 60TP getting traverse buffs
• 95E6 and 260 becoming faster
• more accurate, fast-firing, and high clip damage autoloaders in the game
• autoloaders start with shells which punish early aggressive plays super hard instead of not being able to do this

And this is before I even talk about the armored medium tank changes which were all collectively a tragedy.

Not disagreeing with the notion that tracking shouldn't be changed, but there also shouldn't be any kind of "oh but my poor TD players" sentiment. WG has been catering to that playerbase just as hard as it is with the heavy tanks. In this meta, it's basically all but impossible to play mediums and LTs at close range next to these tanks, because the risk to reward ratio is simply in favor of risk. Most players are better off staying back than trying to circle a TD which has 35+ deg/s traverse, plus all the advantages of maps being super cramped with cover, higher burst / alpha damage, etc.

[stone drum]

They never said that.
They said that they considered it, but it was not a priority.

[real bison]

read the pinned messages

[frank bone]

The 128 mm on the e100 should get some dpm buff. Maybe 115 more dpm, and 10 more APCR pen

[valid mist]

E4 needs its pen back. It got majorly crippled when 20-30 mm of pen went down the drain

[teal crystal]

good luck penning any Tier 8 even if it isn't hulldown with 180mm of pen, if standard has no chance then neither does prammo with the 30% reduction on DpM

"LeArN hOw tO hIt WeAkPoInTs"
dawg have you ever played the AT 15A? bet you haven't, so you have no right to say a thing about it, plus I have played the AT 7 which is literally the more balanced version that can penetrate tier 8s without prammo and keep its DpM

[ancient rampart]

You still have 2700 DPM with calibrated and shooting premium
Learn to aim for weakpoints
The gun is extremely accurate so that shouldn’t be hard

[autumn zodiac]

Problem with this is, most of them have some super bad trade off that hurts more than anything while also not having a turret

[stuck acorn]

man, after all these years, E4 was finally made somewhat usable and worth consideration and he still complains ._.

[stone drum]

honestly I would revert the penetrate on standard to 246.
I would give it a solid 200 dpm buff, and I would Change the handling/accuracy stats abit.

[ornate warren]

Please stop mate…

[unique scaffold]

I am saying it for evryone to see

Maus needs the biggest buff of All time in Blitz ( for tier X)

[lunar brook]

I think it was ok.

[unique scaffold]

@lunar brook worst speed,camo and pen(for havys).Then bad presition and Bad dpm for a lot of HP but not that much more than most havys and really really bad armor (like so bad that its is 50% grey with Ap and with Gold its 95% grey)

[drowsy plaza]

@unique scaffold you may need to learn how to angle it and how to use elevations to hide weak points.

Maus is a balanced tank at this point. It is an effective wall when played correctly. And you can absorb a lot of damage while your team can focus on easier red tanks.

It’s isn’t an underperforming or an over performing tank.

[stuck acorn]

Maus is in a state where it's not worth to play at all. It's not useless, but we have tanks better at everything so there is no point in looking at it what so ever. And it will most likely remain that way if we won't see other heavies getting hammered with huge nerfs

[unique scaffold]

@drowsy plaza i know how Angel it .This is not the Problem. The Problem is that the armor is easily pentreted by Gold.To example its is super easy to pen the turret even correctly agelled.And it is no weakspot anymore when the pen area is bigger than the Red area.

The Trakweel is super weak too .It will be tracked by small guns super easily. And penned

The uper plate will easly be penned by tds with Gold on flat ground.

In Conclugen the Maus is big easily penned (when you know what you are doing) has the WORST Gun in tier X and is slowest in tier X.
And for all this bad Stuff it gets 2850 HP. With is a lot yes but not so much .Think about it Kran can have 2750 HP

Now you might think that i hate the Maus no i love it .The Problem is why bothering playing Maus when there are tanks with better Armor,Speed,Guns and almost the same HP (and they secresice almost nothing)

[teal crystal]

make front so strong not even prammo can pen it, force players to learn how to work together

[unique scaffold]

@teal crystal not so extrem but the weakspots shoud be way smaller and harder to pen.And if corectly Positioned it shoud be a Hard pen for tds. But it can be easily outtourned by meds and lights and fast havys

[twin egret]

Why play a maus when the VK 90 exists? Or Type 71?

[stone drum]

Because VK.90 doesn't have the sheer ability of maus to absorb damage and waste time.

[twin egret]

Arguable

If you're on a slight inclination then you're good, just angle. The lower plate has decent armour than what should be given credit foolr

[stone drum]

Honestly after mediums got ap instead of apcr the lower plate isn't as insane as it used to be, it's still troll, but most things can cut through is easily.

Regardless as for MAUS, It could be fixed by simply giving it 3000hp base and changing the handling factors to .3/.1/.6.

[twin egret]

Ehh it's more like being knowledgable on how to get it angled and using the terrain as help

[silk root]

buff the maus hp to 3000, gun handling to equal the Mauchen, and tracks to mauschen thickness and trackwheel too. that's all it needs. (I know, four things is kind of a lot, but seriously, why does it have thinner tracks, trackwheel armor, and worse acuracy than it's tier 9?)

[high flame]

Wargaming need to buff & nerf all tier 8 most of nerfed they to buff heavy and mediums nerf TDs efficiency buff main Kingtiger ii hull +lower plate turret buff WG

[stone drum]

Please attempt to use punctuation, it's helps us non-native English speakers understand what your trying to say.

Also the Tiger B doesn't need any more armour buffs, it's already been sufficiently up-armoured to be effective in tier 8.

[sweet skiff]

in my opinion, tier 8 doesn’t require a rebalance. my only problem about tier 8 is about of premiums there are in that tier

also tiger 2 is perfect as it is, just angle your hull so premium rounds won’t penetrate it easily

[tame stirrup]

Yeah the Tiger II is amazing

[sacred hull]

buff t110e5

[ornate warren]

it needs a complete change, not just a buff imo

[thorny timber]

I bet it does

[wooden lynx]

Bring back Maus 3k hp base

[remote oriole]

The only flaw with that logic is that while force the enemy to play together, you allow the Maus to play alone. Essentially, all you do is create an op tank that everyone will play, and hence there is no effect of ‚forcing to play together‘ and just more ‚op tank rolls over everything else‘

[drowsy frigate]

I wonder why the top 2 have the best firepower and armour typical hulldown strong armour and weaponry meta. The maus is currently a balanced tank, it doesnt' need to be buffed. Before supporting droodles actually know how to use it (properly angle the tank), right equipment and consumable etc.

[jade cargo]

カメさん10号戦車：Panther ll#3368 was muted.

[stone drum]

Did you just call obj268 v4 hulldown meta??

@humble depot
sigh
Truely wonderful. Didhis takes/suggestions manage to be even worse then mine?

[humble depot]

This guy already got banned here on a different account for his outlandish theories. Don’t be surprised.

[novel ruin]

The St Emil should get premium ammo and more He Penetration

[high flame]

Lol st mail is just stupid tank just finished in he shells

[thorny timber]

To be honest,St emil and Waffle are the only tanks which are least prone to getting HE-ed in the grille line

[stone drum]

What purpose would that even serve?

[novel ruin]

More damage and allow it to have more shells cause it can carry 20 shells in the ammorack but ur only allowed to have 18

[jade cargo]

VK168#3972 was muted.

xKarnage#4503 has been warned.

Ņathan#7565 has been warned.

[harsh pebble]

how come the standard B has hesh but the progetto doesnt @unique scaffold its got alot of he pen. 1005mm i think

[unique scaffold]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[frank bone]

We call it HESH, since its high pen HE

[ancient rampart]

The Tiger II has some of the best frontal armor for tier 8
It doesn’t need any buffs you need to learn how to play it

[harsh pebble]

true but its a tier higher so that could be why its faster reload

[unique scaffold]

One message removed from a suspended account.

[nimble zodiac]

It should be sent to you by the bot in DMs

Well, let’s not discuss the moderator’s decision 😅

[stone drum]

You used swear words.

@unique scaffold
Progetto has hesh, it just has less pen.

[novel relic]

Please, just please, with the current armor profiles of tanks, please buff the chieftain mk 10 penetration. Its absolutely sad how bad it truly is. It will bounce a minotauro bottom hull almost all the time even when you run calibrated shells while using the normal AP, you should never have to load apcr or any premium ammo in a heavy tank just to pen a lower plate of a mino or any other tanks lower plate if exposed. I have waisted so many credits on my f2p due to the sad penetration it has. It should at minimum have 326 pen as a standard for its premium ammunition.

Then please consider buffing the turret, for whatever reason, there are some extremely weak spots that even tier 7 tanks can easily penetrate. That should not at all be the case. When hull down that turret should be if not close to impossible to pen without the usage of premium ammo, I cannot stress enough how many times when I have played it, even on my main account with over 200 battles played that I have been penned on the turret all around frontally with normal ammunition. Please just please fix those weak points once it gets pbr.

[stone drum]

To be fair you get increased damage on your premium rounds as compensation, and you still have enough dpm to run calibrated shells.

[obtuse sentinel]

Look guys! another Wehraboo asking for a Maus buff for the 10 trillionth time! Instead of learning to play the Maus correctly, he immediately comes here to demand a buff instead of learning how to play the tank properly. Notice how all players who ask for heavy tank buffs usually have mediocre WR, damage and average exp earned per battle on other tank classes. They have to compensate by playing brain dead heavies in order to keep their WR above 50%. 🤣

[remote oriole]

Go somewhere else with you ad hominem nonsense. Unbelievable

[novel relic]

The maus is fantastic, sure there are other tanks such as vk 90, and e100 but man the maus is great, sure you might not get a lot of damage out as your not really supposed to, but you sure will soak up the enemy shells as your supposed to. Clearly they don't seem to know sides carping is a thing. Its literally meant for it.

[novel relic]

Also felt like pointing out, and please correct me if I'm wrong but the only other heavy tank with lower pen is the is7, but the is7 has a great turret going for it and many other things.

Almost every other average heavy has anywhere from 330-340 base premium penetration without calibrated shells.

Anyways though, this is why I say 326 base premium pen should be implemented for it.

@stone drum my point is that the chieftain is easily out classed by tanks such at wz 111 5a using their premium ammunition which has easily 20m or more penetration standard. The chieftain should not have to struggle to pen the majority of heavy tanks frontal top plates with apcr

[stone drum]

I wouldn't use "fantastic" as a description, I would say "workable", "decent", not terrible".

@novel relic cheiftan firing only premium apcr with calibrated on still has more dpm than IS-7 with standard ap using rammer.

Pen is better than WZ-111-5a and IS-7, it's on par with Concept 1b, AMX m4 mle. 54, strv k, and maus.

@novel relic sorry to dissappoint you but WZ, amx, and IS-7 have a whopping 0mm more standard penetration than cheiftn.

[fading crescent]

it would be kinda cool to make the amx 30 b an auto loader kinda liek the buorasqe bc right now its just a worse leo and worse m48 patton

[obtuse sentinel]

The jab is not directly at this specific person but ALL players who constantly are asking for heavy buffs despite heavies being the most effective class in the game at the moment. The unreasonable demands and requests to keep buffing heavies over and over again is the primary reason why there is no reason to play any other class of tanks other than heavy tanks. Am I wrong in suggesting that players should learn how to play heavy tanks (despite being the easiest class to play as of now) properly instead of constantly asking for buffs?

[novel relic]

I'd why I pointed out the wz 111 5a, I rarely play it but I will say it does have somey things over chieftain, such as side armor, turret armor, (idk the speed difference). Amx should be the way it is, is7 simply should be the way it is as well. But let's simply compare three tanks that have hesh but simply better premium ammo, such as the super conq and the tier 10 britt heavy. They both have an outstandingly better base penetration than the chieftain, the conq does pretty dang well hull down with its 10 degrees of depression, the other does pretty dang great as well in a hull down scenario. Both carry I believe the same hesh guns, both can easily pen the average heavy tank with ease using premium ammunition, as well due to the height both tanks sustain they can easily look down upon their targets and make hulls of other tanks seem like butter....I have played all 3, I have great wr in each, but the simple fact the chieftain is so much lower down than a tank like the super conq, it as well I belive has like a 20m or 30m idk difference in standard pen is great. That's why I believe the chieftain just needs some extra love on it apcr

Oh also on an earlier note. Tanks on par with pen with chieftain that you pointed out such as concept has amazing hull down capabilities, amx as well a hull down beast along side its size, strv k, hull of kravagan, turret that is pretty troll, great hull down, sure great speed, and more going for all of em. Maus...well I guess due to iys behemoth size it can easily just look down and make its penetration work.

@queen geyser oh I don't think chieftain should be op at all, it just should be able to fit in with its two similar brother tanks, as well have all those very weak points fixed, but leave some such as the small machining port and upper mantlet weak. Oh and the 260 I personally have no problem with, I like it the way it is even though there are times it can struggle.

[queen geyser]

I think not every collector needs to be op, or one of the best like Badger, I think its much better for the game if collectors are good, but have some weaknesses they need to cover, interesting tanks to play, tanks that are fun but not op in any means, like we are having with Chief and 260, why would u want to change that

[stone drum]

Wdym "AMX should be the way it is"

[stone drum]

Superconqeror apcr's only advantage over chefitan is base dpm, otherwise cheiftan can just run calibrated and still barely loose any dpm.

[novel ruin]

WG should buff the stock leopards gun the T5 leopard

[unique scaffold]

Grille should have better damage or better camouflage value.
For Players who want to play Germany there is no Tank, wich is really good since the jg. tg. E100 🥰

[stuck acorn]

Grille can't be buffed for now, as it is type of tank that gets exploited too much by good players if overcooked even slightly. That's why it was nerfed in the first place.

Because of this garbage spall liner it could play aggresively without risk of getting eaten by HE.

Unless they remove it, i don't really see any way to buff this vechicle

It's really funny for me tho how grille went from 60 kph top speed to 45 kph top speed and from over 3600 DPM to 3300 just because WG wanted to make it more suitable for bots at the same time keeping it in line in the hands of players that actually use their brain

@granite pebble no, it is just fine. they finally after all these years of being useless made it worth grinding/playing so for me it should stay as it is. It doesn't seem any broken

[granite pebble]

Anyone else feel like the E4 is a bit overtuned right now?

[remote oriole]

They said that they nerfed Grille because it‘s toxic. I don‘t think toxic means that good players overperform in it

[stone drum]

E100:
Vk72:
Vk90:
E50m:
leopard1:
Kpz50t:

"for players who want to play Germany there is no tank which is really good."
Completely false and garbage point, the German tech tree gets nothing but babied.

@granite pebble
Obj 263 and Foch 155 are both in a crappy spot currently

[granite pebble]

Yeah im ngl there isn't really a tier 10 TT tank thats bad in any nation

[remote oriole]

All the worst tier ten tanks are tech tree tanks. How bad does a tank have to be to be considered bad?

[stuck acorn]

Toxic? How is grille toxic? It isn't toxic at all. Spall liner is toxic, but the tank itself isn't.

Good players overperforming in it was my own hypothesis on why they nerfed it and it seems valid to me. Before nerf it was undoubtedly one of the strongest tanks in hands of a good player.

@remote oriole probably worse than Object 263 as WG still doesn't consider it bad enough to give it a buff 💀

@granite pebble we have post nerf foch and post nerf grille. They aren't as bad as 263, but 263 is most likely the worst T10 tank to ever exist in wot blitz at this point already, so it's hard to get to this point. These vehicles cleary stand out from the rest by being very underwhelming. This one is not tech tree, but we also have an Object 260 which clearly isn't something i'd want to play

[granite pebble]

I mean, 263 is the only one that I can think of as being genuinely bad lmao, all the german tier 10's are good, all french tier 10's are good, all of russia's tier 10's except the 263 are good, USA, UK, Japan, so on and so on.
There are average or hard to play tanks, sure, but there are by no means any genuinely bad tanks aside from the 263

[novel ruin]

U forgot maus

[granite pebble]

I do perfectly fine in the 260, it plays like a fat russian medium and has the gun handling to fit comfortably in that role. Foch 155 is also barely "nerfed" it's just no longer a derpy 560 alpha "dpm" autoloader, it has the dpm gun or the two shot, both of which are perfectly usable and have their strengths.

Grille is still strong, so im confused why you even bring the Grille up, especially considering with retical cal and it's already insane accuracy it can hit weak points that no other tank could dream of hitting, while still being mobile and having the ability to relocate anywhere it pleases.

[stone drum]

Neither gun has good dpm... lol.
Foch more or less lost the entire point of its existence.

@granite pebble 3k dpm with zero flexibility of any kind + below average penetration and alpha.

The only purpose it serves is to be sold.
The Foch is supposed to have extreme fire power, with the downside of struggling to use that firepower. They took away the firepower and kept the horrible inflexiblity.

[granite pebble]

Single shot has 3k dpm, which is entirely usable for a 600 alpha gun, the other does 1k in 3.8 seconds, also perfectly usable.

It's existence is very different but it still serves a purpose

[stuck acorn]

It doesn't matter how do you do with a certain tank. I don't have a problem performing decently in any of these tanks either. Good player will do good in nearly every tank.

Grille and foch are very underwhelming, they were both nerfed to the ground just to kill their uniqueness and simplify the gameplay so that trash players can do well in them. Grille now is slower than some heavy tanks and doesn't have the gun good enough to compensate for all other of it's wekanesess anymore. Foch on the other hand was completly trashed. A single shot gun which you called a "DPM gun" doesn't have that good DPM and doesn't have good accuaracy or outstanding alpha either, while clipper gun is just bad. Reload takes ages, Damage per clip is abmyssal and accuracy is as horrendous as it used to be.

260 on the other hand just falls behind every single other heavium in the game. It's playable by itself, but there is no reason to play it at all

[granite pebble]

So.... the E3 has bad dpm, the 268 has bad DPM, the V4 has bad DPM, the WZ 113G also has bad dpm then as well?

That's not even taking into consideration the fact that the Foch 155 has better aim time and accuracy than all of these tanks aside from the 113G.

Yet I don't hear anyone complaining about the guns of these tanks despite the Foch essentially having a slightly better single shot, or borderline on par single shot gun, or the fact that it has higher pen than all of these tanks aside from the 268 due to running calibrated due to a lack of a rammer.
Foch also has better mobility than all of these tanks, which has always been one of the main unique factors about it.
That's not even taking into account the fact that the double shot gun is essentially a 1k alpha gun with comparable handling to all of these tanks.

Grille also only received camo nerfs and an alpha nerf, you'd have to genuinely be a horrible player with no map awareness to not be able to utilize it, especially considering the accuracy and DPM.

Like im not gonna lie it's almost like you've never actually played these tanks or even looked at their stats since the changes and just regurgitate what other people are saying.

[stone drum]

Obj 268 v4 and e3 are armoured beasts with extremely high alpha, both WZ-113gft and 268 have significantly more flexibility and the ability to actually use their guns unlike foch.

Foch basically looses flexibility and it's gun for straight-line acceleration and usable frontal armour.

regardless if your going to use the singleshot, Ho-ri exsists and basically does the exact samething, but better.
Then your left with a watered down autoloader.

[stuck acorn]

I never said DPM on the foch single shot is bad. I said it's not that good when confronted with it's massive weaknesess. Not to mention that unlike other tanks mentioned by you it can't use it effectively at all. You can't compare gun on a tank like a foch to a gun on a tank like E3. Even if the guns were exact same, a tank like E3 can make a much better use of it.

When it comes to a grille tho, 3300 DPM with 600 alpha on a complete glass cannon with no flexibility for you is good? it is not. Grille was scrapped out of everything that made it a good tank. Situation here is similar to one on a foch. Gun itself doesn't look bad, except you can't use it lol. I never thought i'll ever need to say that, but grille after all these changes it received is slow. It always relied on relocating and taking shots into enemies that didn't care about you. Now not only you have to do that with a speed of a heavy tank which is just dumb considering how very little armor it has, (daily reminder that it used to go 60kph and it wasn't broken even back then as it had a gun comparable to the one it has now) but it also gets a less effective gun. What a great change. Not to mention that "mighty accuracy" of a grille. The tank may be accurate, but with a very slight issue being the fact that it has the worst gun handling on the entire tier. I'm not dumb enough to shoot it at move, but such a huge downside will affect the gameplay regardless as it makes aim time significantly longer and adds a searious limitations to your repostioning as you are pretty much harmless on the move

[granite pebble]

...No flexibility? Despite having 45/45 for it's gun angles, despite still having better EHP/t than even the fastest heavy tanks, despite having an aim time that more than makes up for the bad soft stats, the best base accuracy in the game, and even having ret cal to top it off.
Oh and it gets spall liner too so it having no armor hardly means a thing. The only genuinely bad thing about the gun is the absolutely pitiful HEAT pen that it has, since everything else can be worked around to some degree.

You also stated "A single shot gun which you called a "dpm gun" doesnt have that good dpm", which is in this context would imply you think it is bad. The single shot gun is average, it's comparable to every single other gun with similar alpha except the Ho-Ri and Grille which are both tanks that their entire emphasis is on having unique 150mm guns. The Foch's single shot is completely and entirely usable, it's just a rather baseline gun, whilst the double shot... well, you're throwing out 1k damage in 3.8 seconds on a very mobile platform, that's not something you just shrug off because of "reload takes ages, damage per clip is abysmal, and accuracy is horrendous", even though 1k damage is uh... not a small amount of damage, in the time you unload your clip into someone and get your second clip off, they've fired 2-3 shells at you unless theyre a dpm tank, making you still out trading them fairly comfortably.

It's not like it's hard to hit your shots either, the soft stats on the Foch 155 are more than good enough to be able to comfortably run refined gun, setting your accuracy to just right below .3.
Ignoring the potential of the two shot gun just because it isn't like the insanely awkward DPM autoloader is just... weird man.

[real bison]

I’d like to point out that the Foch 155’s 12° total gun arc makes the soft stats and accuracy part a little bogus

in my opinion, they should have slightly changed the double shot, but the single shot gun should have been made a far more comfortable gun to play with

things such as gun arc going from 12° total to 20° total, gun dep maybe to 7°, shell velocity, aim time being changed just to make the gun more consistent and comfortable

[main tulip]

<@&481447501690568709> lol

[stone drum]

100% agree.

@granite pebble foch has pretty awful soft stats at .2/.2/.12 couple that with the fact it's a fast tank with no horrible gun arc, and completely relies on wiggling the hull to make its Armour work only amplifies it.

plus ho-ri gets insane traverse, reverse, and decent top speed and very usable armour, along with the some of the best td soft stats on the best gun in-game.

[harsh ravine]

There’s no point of playing Foch when the Yoh or Obj. 268 exist.

Also, as someone who has played the Obj. 260, there’s no incentive to play it over the E6, Obj. 777 or the WZ 113. Only advantage it has over other heaviums is better aiming time and traverse, at the cost of having no armor, lower DPM and worse penetration

[jade cargo]

Ņathan#7565 was muted.

Sergietee#5898 was muted.

Parcelsnip#0743 has been warned.

[copper valve]

Opinions on IS-6? I picked it up for like 5 bucks a long time ago and have had conflicted feelings about it

[drowsy plaza]

@copper valve try #vehicles-discussion

[stuck acorn]

Spall liner is only thing stoping this tank from being an absolute abmyssal garbage on level of 263 and most likely the reason it was nerfed to the ground in the first place.

"ignoring the potential of 2 shot gun is weird" you know... i wouldn't ignore it if it was any better thaan previous gun or even just worth considering. 2 shot autoloaders have potential and most of them are usually one of the best guns at their respective tier. The problem is that foch completly doesn't fit playstyle usually presented by other 2 shell autoloaders as other stats of this tank make it not suitable for this kind of gameplay. Not to mention that it is most likely the worst 2 shell autoloader tier for tier in game except for maybe some low tier ones nobody cares about. 1k damage is not a bad value for 2 shot, but a bad value for it's reload and the fact that you can only make good use of it in very specific environment and situations. This gun is arguably worse than 2 shot autoloader we have on M-VI-Yoh which is a heavy tank, not a TD and it's placed on a platform that is not even comparably less suitable for it. What could possibly go wrong?

[drowsy plaza]

There are serval pro’s to the Obj 260 that those others don’t have. The 260 has a really good turret that can mostly hide the cupola. And forces folks to use Prammo on the cheeks. The gun handles a bit better and it’s a tad more mobile, yes the hull is paper, so if pushed it bleeds - but the only reason people put it down is because so many heavies in X are over buffed.

[drowsy plaza]

Honestly I think giving the Foch (155) a better gun arc and more depression and elevation would solve a lot of issue with it. 7 degrees of depression and 18 degrees of elevation would help as well as 10 degrees to each side for arc. It’s mobile but without a turret it runs into a lot of problems with useful positioning, as you can manufacture artificial depression fairly easily with a turret on contours, but you can’t do that without a turret in most areas. Combined with the fact that the range finder bar means folks don’t even need to load gold to front pen. I can be a great tank on some maps, but in others it’s just frightfully painfully.

[stone drum]

I would have liked to see it receive à 120mm autoloader, with 400×3 and 3s intraclip. More or less à copy of the old 50b gun, maybe with a shorter clip reload time though. I think that would have been à really (non-toxic) solid, balanced option.

[harsh ravine]

Would rather give the tier 9 Foch the firepower of the T57 while giving the Foch (155), 560-600*2 with 5s intraclip

The Fochs are supposed to have deadly burst potential, they’re TDs afterall

[copper valve]

oh OK ty

[orchid grove]

IMO what they should do to Foch 155 (if they don’t wanna make a Foch B) is give it 640x3 with 5.5s intraclip and undo all of the various armor buffs it got over the years so the sides are a 3x overmatch again.

[stone drum]

In like pc or wt 40mm sides are bearable, but at the ranges in blitz, that would be painful.
It would require a mobility buff for that to happén Imo

[cerulean mason]

Buff the DPM of the AMX 30B

[sweet skiff]

and bring back its 65 km/h top speed

[vital swan]

France as a whole and some older trees needs a rework

[teal crystal]

113 got nerfed when they removed reticle calibration, like why would WG do that? the T9 has it but not the T10, looks and sounds really dumb because that is basically like a nerf, the Grille has less HE penetration than the WT, another downgrade, same thing with progetto 65 the balancing department in this game is sleeping on these oversights

[dry rivet]

I really don’t see what the issue is with the Chieftain. Penetration values are fine. Running calibrated, 5A has best prammo pen, followed by Chief then IS7. I would take a chieftain any day over the 5A. Although both are mobile, the 5A had its mobility nerfed after the tier X reworks. Chief has better gun depression and gun handling. Naturally, it does not need as high of a prammo pen when compared to the 5A. And clearly, it can easily traverse faster than an SConq, meaning it can get around enemies easier. Because SConq is less mobile, it is more comfortable to play with a higher pen gun. Chieftain does not need that.

[dry rivet]

With cali SConq has 342 mm pen on prammo. 326 base.
Ranking them:
SConq: 342.3 / 326
5A: 333.3 / 303
Chief: 325.5 / 310
IS7: 318.18 / 303
SConq is slowest among them, hard to move around, higher pen = more comfortable play hull down, brawl
Chief: a heavium. Can move around easier, so doesn’t need higher pen/enemy side armor is weak if u flank them instead of face on. hull down, flank/med support
IS7: run into them, face hug. flat terrain brawl, urban /obstacle setting

Not all heavies play the same, that is why their prammo pen values vary. If all tanks have the same stats, it would be boring and leave others at disadvantage

[queen geyser]

S.Conq is also unaccurate

[main tulip]

why are you comparing with cali

[drowsy frigate]

not sure what kind of advantage being hulldown in a chieftain provides, the top part of the gun mantlet can be penetrated using 271mm standar pen and the cheeks can be penned using 340 heat pen.

[trim grail]

Did the AMX 30b get buffed? I just restored it and it feels much better than i remember it

[sweet skiff]

yes, the dpm was buffed

[drowsy frigate]

IS-7 isn't that good imo. The fuel tanks are ez to hit and it has the classic russian internal module problem in that the modules are closely packed together

[pure brook]

same fate as 60TP, but in anyway both is great tank on it's own

[winged moth]

what up

[drowsy frigate]

ur right, other than internal module problems, both tanks are really solid and good options for new players and comp except maybe low gun depression for is-7 and ok gun depression for 60tp

[jade cargo]

ﻬ͘⃝Gothchk17#8554 has been warned.

[final warren]

I would rather not have even more huge clip dmg autoloaders. The foch could clip full HP tanks with that. Would be very toxic and would make the game more campy than the 183 makes the game

[stuck acorn]

well, it theoretically could, but only if you were stupid enough to sit under it's gun for 11 seconds lmao. it wouldn't be able to use it's clip like most autoloader tanks, it would probably be similar to originaal fpch autoloader, just less versatile as it would have much longer clip reload

@final warren you can get 11 seconds of time at a target that isn't completly isolated with foch 155 without geating eaten alive? have you even ever played the foch? Pretty interesting. Sadly it just doesn't happen in most cases. Even below average players will realise what's going on and not let you make any use of it. WIth foch it's already pretty hard to make use of 2 shot autoloader with 4 seconds intraclip. There is no way you are going to one clip to death anybody that isn't completly isolated with it. It wiill server more like a single shot gun with very quick reload for it's alpha

[final warren]

I can very easily get 11 seconds of time on target most games. I'm not saying I would be the one getting clipped, but any above average player can easily clip any below average player. And any below average player could easily clip another below average player. I can't see 1900 clip dmg being good for the game

[fossil marten]

Been driving the T44-85 a lot recently and it’s such a great tank. Good against its own tier and below and can hold its own against tier 8. It’s, dare I say it, a fun tank (despite not being an autoloader, autoreloader, big alpha etc), so my question is, why is the T44 at tier 8 so ‘meh’? I know one is premium and one tech tree, but they’re closely related. I feel it’s the mobility, with the T44-85 feeling agile and quick, and the T-44 just underwhelming/average at best 🤷‍♂️ does the T-44 need a buff to mobility or something else, or is it fine as it is?

[harsh pebble]

powercrept. t-44 has been in the game for a very long time so im not suprised it def needs a buff but i dubt it will happen any time soon

[burnt venture]

I would rather see 1900 damage over 12 seconds with an actual reload that limits the damage output than a 3k DPM tank bursting 1200+ damage in under 5 seconds. Does it make any kind of sense how T57 and 4005 have such powerful clips yet still have more DPM than many single-shot tanks?

What most people don't realize is that the total clip damage plays very little role when it comes to the power of clippers. The unload time, as well as the DPM, matter a lot more. That's why nobody is calling M-IV-Yoh, IS-3D, T28D, etc. "overpowered" or "broken", because they are, contrary to your opinion, kept very in check by low DPM or long intraclip times. You could say "but omg 1200 burst at tier 8, 1240 burst at tier 8, that's busted" but you never ever get entire clips out anyway, even on M-IV-Yoh which has DPM comparable to a Shark. And due to autolaoders being inflexible, every single time players press reload on the magazine costs them some time.

This is because the entire strength of the autoloader comes in the burst damage. The shorter the intraclip, the less time the autoloader spends peeking in order to do full DPM compared to single shot tanks. So autoloaders with long intraclips in general play more like single-shot tanks because they won't ever get that opportunity to mag dump: they are exposed for way too long. 12 seconds is enough time for a tier 8 heavy tank to fire twice, yet you say somehow that you can find a target which sits in your sights for 12 whole seconds?

We need to seriously move away from short-intraclip autoloaders and adding clip reload consumable. We need to STOP giving autoloaders shorter and shorter burst times, because those are the ones that are actually the problem. Having so many short-intraclip autoloaders in the game also promotes garbage gameplay, where players camp somewhere waiting for people to push or are yoloing their tanks away to cripple one target.

[meager magnet]

🥰 Nice balance 👌 (sarcastic🤬)
There is no point to play a normal tank even if it has great dpm like the chieftain mk6 because now no skill autloaders are meta

[thorny timber]

Autoloaders should just get slightly longer intraclip times so that the low DPM actually plays a role,but it still keeps the burst for what's it's even played in the first place

Considering this things like tvp are mad annoying because of how short the intraclip is even with 4 shells,bursts out faster than can also get away with less trades taken since it has existent speed and armor

@remote oriole it's namesake low DPM

[remote oriole]

Autoloaders do not have low dpm, as Synx noted

If autoloaders are the namesake of low dpm for you then you need a reality check. Autoloaders typically have their dpm within the upper 25% of tanks of their class and tier. The only exception to this rule at tier ten is the TVP, which is a joke for other reasons (and even then its dpm is not the worst in tier ten).

Autoreloaders typically have low dpm, but to those it also typically doesn‘t matter because of how WG implemented the autoreloading mechanic (and because in some dpm calculations the reserve shell makes them seem weaker than they are).

Other than that, tanks that usually have low dpm are ridiculously well armoured tanks (yes, even derp guns usually have high dpm)

[orchid grove]

Based Synx. I think I’m finally rubbing off on you 😎

[thorny timber]

Autoreloaders were supposed to fill up for the weaknesses that autoloaders have,with being able to not run out of magazine forcibly and actually using it wisely,whereas at this point due to how fast autoloaders can empty their clip and even yet have higher DPM shows how unbalanced it is

[burnt venture]

I mean I can see a bit more of what you want and how it would impact the game.

This is basically positive's take:

• autoloaders should have huge magazines with high clip potential (Foch 155 5x640, Batchat 5x350), but have long intraclip times with lower DPM than current autoloaders
• autoloaders in this state become similar to wot PC: more assassin / 1v1 tanks, rather than the current state which is "do the damage before enemies notice and then retreat"
• Players who make a large mistake (aka going to a flank alone / being isolated in a very slow tank) would be punished very hard by dying from full health
• Players who make small mistakes (aka peeking an autoloader) would no longer instantly die, or even be crippled for the rest of the game, but rather be punished as if they played against a single shot tank
• Autoloaders with longer intraclip can also have shorter clip reloads, which means more gameplay throughout the duration of the game instead of clipping and then sitting there for ~20 seconds doing absolutely nothing

Basically, these autoloaders would no longer be way better at peeking and trading against multiple enemies than single shot tanks, or be able to instantly cripple any enemy that makes small mistakes. However, it gives the autoloaders instead an advantage over slow targets with no DPM (think camping TDs / heavy tanks) and in 1v1 fights, which currently are dominated by heavy tanks anyway.

It overall would probably improve gameplay more than the current TVP / T57 / 50B / Yoh / Kran / 4005. IMO it's way more toxic to have some guy cripple you when you've hardly made a mistake, than to have you get killed from full health because you clearly were playing the game poorly and the other player was good enough to see and take advantage of that.

It's not perfect, but definitely a decent solution to actually require braincells to play the tanks instead of just yoloing a target and killing yourself or waiting behind a rock all game for reds to push.

[remote oriole]

I think for that concept to work the dpm of tanks need to be stretched out further again. Essentially this clip gives you higher dpm for the duration of the magazine, which will however be meaningless if the enemy also has high dpm and can just trade one for one with you (or if they have higher alpha, one for two may already be enough). Because, as it stands now, there are almost no low dpm tanks out there

If you don‘t use the reference configuration (no equipment, no provisions, 100% crew) the T57 Heavy has higher dpm than the Chieftain Mk. 6, so you are not the dpm tank here

[stone drum]

Eh Foch also applies to that rule, but only for class.

@burnt venture what if 50b got another gun with a 6×400 autoloader, but with say à 6s intraclip?

[thorny timber]

Autoloaders shouldn't just be able to push out shells faster then,although it does make sense when you see that an autoloader becomes brain-dead after emptying the whole clip and goes back to the spawn and does nothing there until another clip

[burnt venture]

This won't be like the slow tier 8 defenders, where they have 7 seconds intraclip. These tanks will have anywhere from probably 3.5-5 seconds intraclip, with no stupid superconsumables to speed that up. So at any point you are still going to trade 2 for 1 in any engagement anyway. And in the case of the Foch, you can take 2 shots and still outtrade them because of the alpha.

The concept is so that you get punished if you try to just mag dump on enemies, especially multiple enemies. There's no reason that you should be able to peek, do 1200 in the duration that it takes enemies to shoot you only one time, then be able to be ready within 20 seconds again. That's way more toxic.

Plus, most high DPM tanks are mediums, LTs, and lightly armored heavy tanks. Those are the classes which suffer the most from clippers: they play more frontline than TDs, have less armor than heavy tanks, and rely on creating crossfires / having the mobility to disengage and isolate themselves for solo play in order to be effective. Current autoloaders destroy a lot of that, because they punish lightly armored tanks the most, while superheavys and TDs tend to play peek-a-boom and are not punished as immediately

The concept of autoloaders should not be "push to a spot, peek, deal stupid amounts of damage, then run away". It should be "play carefully at the start of the match, don't get greedy for entire clips, reload the clip when you can, and become an assassin that specializes in winning 1v1s near the end-game."

The old T57 and 50B were exactly like that. It took skill to play, they had great firepower but big downsides compared to other heavy tanks. T57 was agile and had DPM with a fast-aiming gun, but had worse armor than other heavy tanks. 50B had great mobility and gun depression to flex around the map, but had no armor and can be punished with HE.

[final warren]

I think you misinterpreted my opinion. I understand that an autoloaders main strength is in burst damage, but also think mobility plays a big factor as well as total dmg.

I completely agree that the 57, 4005, TVP need their dpm nerfed. It's the whole reason they are so strong, and it makes zero sense. These tanks are also highly mobile, allowing them to position themselves effectively

I can't comment on the Yoh since I'm not familiar with it.

As for the other two, they are severely limited by a lack of mobility. They are unable to effectively get into positions that will allow them to unload their whole clip. That combined with their long inter clip reload is what limits them.

Additionally, they have less clip damage relative to their tier than a 1920 dmg clip foch. A 1200 dmg clip can only one clip maybe 10% of tier 8. A 1920 dmg clip can one clip around 60-70% of tier X. That's a big difference.

The entire strength of an autoloader is not solely in inter clip reload, although it is big. Yes, short inter clip means less time poking. But other factors are mobility, and total clip dmg. An autoloader benefits more from mobility than single shot tanks, and less from armor than them as well. Mobility allows an autoloader to take positions where they can get 11 seconds on target. Clip damage allows an autoloader to bully an entire flank, causing stagnant gameplay. It also allows an autoloader to trade without too much repercussions. I will gladly take 800 or 900 dmg in exchange for killing a tank in one clip, which is what a 1920 dmg clip foch could do.

A foch has mobility, and half decent armor. Giving it a 1920 dmg clip, even with 5.5 inter clip, will give it too much power. It's too mobile for that much dmg, and it's just too much dmg in general. A tank shouldn't be able to one clip 60 or 70% of tier X, unless you want slow gameplay

I'm not saying it would necessarily be OP, but it would cause bad gameplay for sure

[twilit crystal]

This is dumb, you are showing a clear 2v2 tournament and you got rekt on the same map. Obviously in a 2v2 autoloaders will rule especially when u play paper heaviess like the Chieftan, The 2nd match you should have either A. played the counter autoloader toon, B. Played meds/lights and tried to whittle them down first at range or C. Played heavy tanks with hull armor like say the type 71 and get a few bounces and then go to town during the reload. Instead you guys played paper heavies that is easy to pen 6/6 shells

[quick lichen]

Your lack of tournament tactics do not equate to a lack of game balance

[burnt venture]

Situations where you go and chase a tank to dump your entire mag which takes 12 seconds are going to be near nonexistent.

Currently what makes TVP so strong is that the mobility allows for disengaging. Of course TVP can chase you down, but that doesn't happen until the very end game, or you are super isolated on a flank by yourself.

And remember that tanks which give chase are going to be very inaccurate and miss shots, which are extremely costly to any autoloader.

What the issue with TVP is currently is that you have the mobility to disengage against anything, and also yolo at the enemy with little to no warning which then combined with the 5 second clip dump you are almost guaranteed 4 free shots at enemies before you get taken down, even against 5 or 6 players.

Foch 155 with 1900 clip dump will have none of that. You have terrible reverse speed, it takes 12 seconds to do full damage, you have no side armor. If you take on multiple tanks, you will get outtraded and die before getting your clip off. If you yolo a single tank in a group of tanks, you will die before you get your entire clip off. The only time where this new Foch would chase down and kill enemies from full health is if the enemy has, as I've said, massively misplayed, like taking their tank completely alone without any support into the flank.

The current gameplay is way worse. It rewards the full mag for yoloing. In a Foch, you might have 1900 clip damage but you will not be able to put it to use unless the enemy is fully and truly isolated. And then even then, you only have TD HP, with bad gun handling and terrible gun angles.

I don't see how this is worse than current autoloaders. I would definitely rather face this than a T57 or TVP. There's really not too much evidence to argue against how this would be much more skill-based than any current autoloader.

[stone drum]

Your forgetting unlike regular autoloader, foch has no turret and poor gun arc, bad gun depression, and horrendous bloom + accuracy as a result. it's unlikely the entire 1920 would ever connect unless It was literally 25m away while you are standing completely still.

@final warren never said that's what I wanted. I just want à copy of the old 50b gun on the Foch with other improvements to the tank itself.

[final warren]

@burnt venture @stone drum

Fair point on the turret and chasing, but my point on bad gameplay still stands imo. A 1920 dmg clip on a turret less TD might not be able to chase and retreat like a TVP, but it can certainly wait. And there isn't going to be anyone who wants to push that foch. This will create very immobile gameplay, opposite of what blitz is supposed to be.

Also, I'm not saying it would be worse than the current gameplay. I would rather have one toxic tank than 4. But trading the greater evil for a smaller one doesn't make it any better. I don't like the current autoloader gameplay, and I wouldn't like it with a tank that could one clip 65% of tier X either

[remote oriole]

Most TDs have around 3200 +- 200 dpm, which is the standard for dpm heavies (Chieftain, T95E6, 113, 260, T57, Strv K, Concept 1B, Object 777 2) and also the standard for non-dpm meds (FV4202, STB-1, 121B, 121, 30B, E50 M, Object 907, Patton, M60 (last two +300))

Just to put this into perspective, superheavies are around 2500-2600 dpm

Most tanks cluster around that dpm. That makes me wonder how you plan to introduce your autoloaders without screwing medium over further, because with a short intraclip, short interclip and large magazines you essentially create massive dpm monsters that can one-clip mediums (but still not heavies, yay), force their presence on a flank by always having the advantage of pre-aiming (because the intraclip is faster than a single shot‘s reload) and that can‘t be pushed out because remember, dpm monster that can completely delete you and only has a short downtime (if you even know when it is down, because have fun counting to six for all the autoloaders you face)

Unless your autoloaders have significantly longer intraclip times than 3.5-5s I don‘t see how they could ever be balanced

[burnt venture]

How is Foch sitting there and waiting any worse than the current 183 or any other TD sitting in spawn? This point completely falls flat because current autoloaders (and all these TDs that basically got higher alpha now) sitting behind a rock would still be way more punishing than this Foch.

A TVP or even 4005 sitting behind a rock waiting does devastating damage in 5 seconds and then runs away so you can't catch it. This Foch does 640 like any other TD, then you have 5.5 seconds to run to cover or hide from it, then it has to readjust itself to shoot you, and it cannot run away.

Again, in almost every single situation except for a straight 1v1 where you have zero support and zero information (when you aren't supposed to be pushing anyway), this is better to fight against than any of the current autoloaders.

If you are opening yourself up to get fully yoloed by an enemy tank which has shots on you for 12 seconds somehow, you'd be dead anyway to any other tank with mobility and normal DPM

[stone drum]

Would such a foch have full HE alpha? Or would it be neutered?

[final warren]

I'm not talking about 1v1 and such. It would be easy to handle a foch 1v1, I could easily avoid and counter a foch. It would be similar to a death star, but worse is my point.

It would be worse than a 183 because the foch would have a smaller profile, better armor, more mobility, and can one clip you. Realistically, you probably won't get one clipped. That doesn't change the fact that it can, and the threat of getting one shot will make many players sit back, passive.

I get what you are saying about effectiveness and stuff, but an ineffective tank can still change gameplay for the worse. And I think 1920 dmg would not help make gameplay better, and shouldn't be implemented.

Do you think a 1920 dmg clip foch would improve the gameplay?

[remote oriole]

If you are exposed against one enemy for 12 seconds in a medium tank, you typically lose half to 2/3rds of your hp against a single shot gun (that doesn‘t HE you), 2/3rds+ of your hp to an autoloading gun, and around 2/3rds to an autoreloading gun, but you wouldn‘t be dead either way

The game doesn‘t stop after the first cross/peek. The massive advantage of the IS-3 Defender and T28 Defender are, that they can always pre-aim the enemy and control the situation because they are guaranteed to have reloaded faster than the enemy (if it has comparable alpha). Especially with the derpy guns at tier eight this makes a huge difference between trading and damaging without taking damage

[twilit crystal]

tvp dpm is fine, the main nerf it needs is a removal of instant reload. Other than that other meds need to be buffed , not tvp nerfed

[carmine plover]

The nerf it needs is to remove it from the whole game, as well as the developers who created it!
A 60 km/h that shows up at your back and takes 1200 of your 1800 health as a TD.
Or who take a shot from other mid and take 2/3 his health.
It's just stupidity that this thing is still existing. It's a cancer in the game, and somehow WG just enjoys watching their game being slowly hated from even the most veterans.

[remote oriole]

I am not talking about a single cross on the flank. I am talking about the continuous fighting on the flank which will eventually decide the battle. How are you supposed to fight against such an autoloader in a medium? You don‘t have a reload advantage, you don‘t have an alpha advantage and you are lucky if you have an armour advantage.

To me this proposals of large clips is just again trashing mediums even more which are reliant on their short reload (because low alpha) and flanking (alone!) to get constant shots in order to use their dpm. How are you supposed to contest these autoloaders on a flank that you need to hold so your team doesn‘t get into a crossfire? How do you stop them from yoloing and completely clipping you? You are entirely reliant on your team to save you.

I know that five seconds are a long time, and you can get back in cover during that time easily. But what then? Peek and surely eat a shot? Disengage and give up the flank? Accept your fate and die? I think this is not helping mediums at all. Especially if the magazine reload is also short, like you suggested

The 50B and T57 were balanced because of no armour and low dpm, not because they had massive clips

[fading crescent]

it would be kinda cool to make the amx 30 b an auto loader kinda liek the buorasqe bc right now its just a worse leo and worse m48 patton

[long light]

No one hated the TVP in this discussion from what i saw, all they said was asking for a rebalance in a tank that should be rebalanced, not removed because of someone that rages over pixels shooting at them, they kept the discussion polite and reasonable, something you seem to lack of

[final warren]

@burnt venture

5.5 seconds is a long time, but my point isn't that the tank will be OP, but create/add to toxic, passive, stagnant gameplay due to the threat of getting one clipped.

I think you are looking at this through a half decent - unicum player's eyes. I'm looking at this through the bottom 50% of the player base.

If I'm facing a below average players, I could create situations where I can one clip him, or hold off 2 or 3 tanks at once. That's toxic.

If I'm a below average player who sees a foch, I would react the same way I do with 183s. I wouldn't push it, because to me, one mistake will cost me my life. I wouldn't flank because I'm not a good player. I would just sit there.

Because half your team is below average, this would create slow, toxic gameplay until a skilled player takes initiative to kill the foch.

Again Synx, do you think this would improve the game? If you don't think it would improve the game, then it shouldn't be implemented

[stone drum]

Neither 50b or T57 has low dpm? They both were rocking about 3k right

@fading crescent 30b with an autoloader would be kinda weird imo. It would probably be incredibly toxic too.

[remote oriole]

T57 Heavy used to have 2687 dpm reference configuration and the 50B used to have 1938 dpm, and that was before provisions so it didn‘t get much higher than that

This is the first dpm buff for both of them:
https://na.wotblitz.com/en/news/updates/balance-in-update-4-2/

[final warren]

Sorry I just can't see how it would improve the game. If it did 1700 dmg I could tentatively agree with you. But 1920 dmg is just too much for me to agree with

[stone drum]

@remote oriole
Oh you mean way back then. I thought you were talking pre-9.1

Ngl its incredibly painful to see those balance changes.

@fading crescent AMX m4 mle.54 is also a single shot, and Foch has a single shot option. They are perfectly split 50/50.

[fading crescent]

im just saying it would be kinda cool even if it was a bad auto loader. because all the other french tier 10s are autoloaders. rn its just kind of a useless tank

[remote oriole]

Completely alone? You don‘t have to be completely alone, you can just be like 50m further left or right of your main force and already be perfectly pushable because a) teammates are ignorant and b) 12 seconds is not long at all. And yes, there is already barely any reason to play medium tanks (there is none except for a selected few) so I don‘t see why we need another tank that fills one of the few remaining niches of medium tanks which is mobile dpm

[meager magnet]

WHAT?!💀 bruh I thought chieftain has one of the best dpm on tier10 heavy tanks☠

[teal crystal]

Laughs in 113

[remote oriole]

The Foch wouldn‘t replace mediums, yes, but there are more autoloaders than the Foch. And it‘s just a reality that teammates usually don‘t care about things that aren‘t straight ahead of them, a reality a medium user has to cope with. So, how is a medium supposed to play against such an autoloader? You seem to suggest running away, but then you just open the entire flank and that‘s equal to losing on most maps

You know what would be more balanced? If they just revert it back to its long intraclip and leave it as a high dpm hunter-killer with obvious weaknesses, not if they give it enough clip potential to shoot any medium to the moon.

It doesn‘t have to be a 1vs1, make it a 2vs2, they yolo you, one of you dies, the other has a 1vs1 against the tank teamed with the Foch

You need at least a 3vs3 with focus fire to change anything about the fact that the Foch will take one of you with it to hell. And now look me straight in the eye and tell me that that is a realistic scenario in randoms

[stone drum]

@stuck acorn
Is this what you were talking about?
(Same update Shark and Su-130 got buffed... 💀)

[meager magnet]

Armor and range won't make me win because 1. The maps are half the size and 2. they gonna rush us anyway and instantly kill one of us. And also when I have to break my head thinking how to win, those no skill players win anyway because the autoloader Meta doesn't require any skill especially in 2vs2.

[final warren]

@burnt venture

A tier 8 defender tank is designed differently than what you are proposing though. You are proposing a tank with much more clip dmg than a defender, relative to tier. Imagine a defender that does 1500 clip dmg, with the same interclip reload and other stats

[burnt venture]

If you take a 2v2 with TVPs, that's also how this will play out, except one of you dies in 5 seconds with zero counterplay and you cannot circle the clipper, track it to stop it from shooting at you, or do anything to angle your armor towards the clippers because they end up on your side anyway.

There are infinitely more gameplay avenues you can take to counter a turretless tank with no reverse speed that deletes you in 12 seconds (if they even have that exposure time / accuracy to hit every shot) than a tank that can cripple you in 5, then run away while taking a single shot.

@final warren a T28 defender does 1200 clip damage at tier 8. That one clips a lot of tier 7s and tier 8 TDs and lights already. I would see that as the same as asking the question "why the hell do mediums and lights have similar HP pools at tier X"

[twilit crystal]

armor absolutely will help, play 2 type 71s. and focus fire them as well. Should take you around 20 seconds to finish off one of them and its impossible for them to kill you with 1 clip

[remote oriole]

Well yes, but firstly you need two TVPs for it and they would also have to work together. And secondly, you are comparing a TVP to a Foch here. If you take the current Foch instead, you still have the weaknesses you mentioned and still need two to coordinate the assault to take one down. With your proposal, one (with a repkit) is enough, and the other guy can do whatever he wants, it makes no difference

Just think of the TVP vs Bat. Chat. Taking mines hill situation on PC: the TVP reloads and empties faster, but ultimately the Bat Chat wins because it can kill the TVP in one clip

[final warren]

My point was that 1200 dmg one clips around 10% of tier 8 tanks. Lower tiers aren't relevant for what I'm talking about.

1200 one clips maybe half of tier 8 TDs (I think) and half of tier 8 light tanks. It doesn't one clip any medium or heavy.

1920 one clips all but 2 tier X TDs, all light tanks, and all mediums.

That is a big difference, you can't say that it's similar to a defender with that much of a difference

To make it similar, you would need to increase the defenders clip dmg to 1450 or 1500

[stuck acorn]

yes, exactly

[remote oriole]

That‘s entirely incorrect. I did not introduce player skill, in fact you did by starting to reference things such as tracking or outplaying turretless TDs. I merely pointed out that the TVPs need to focus their fire, which cannot simply be assumed. Moreover, I said that comparing your Foch proposal to the current Foch instead of the current TVP would be a lot more reasonable, and I said that the same general weaknesses of the tank apply in both cases. Just that in the current case, the Fochs need to focus fire, while with your proposal they don‘t.

I did not include RNG or player skill in the consideration, because as you noted I did not take misses or bounces into account (which is typical for when comparing tanks in a shootout, especially if they have low armour as mediums typically do).

I again object to you comparing the current TVP to your Foch proposal. The TVP and Foch are different tanks, and your proposal should be compared to the current Foch. My claims do not build up on judging player skill, whereas your proposal builds on the assumption of focus fire.

This whole 2vs2 situation doesn‘t even matter all that much in the context of the discussion anyways. You believe to have proposed something that isn‘t broken. I believe what you proposed is not just broken, but toxic, and (like any op tank) forces the enemy to always work together to even stand a reasonable chance (aside from praying to RNG and hoping that the enemy player is bad enough to be outplayed). If you give a tank the ability to kill an enemy significantly faster than the enemy can kill you, you already made a tank that is perfect for yoloing and that will have a profound impact on the game, one way or another

[burnt venture]

Just to expand on this bending the game mechanics to solve player skill issues:

• Why did we buff heavy tanks' HP across the board? Because garbage players were overpushing and somehow weren't survivable enough.
• Why did we buff TD and heavy traverse speeds across the board? Because garbage players were getting circled and outplayed for playing too aggressive when they shouldn't.
• Why did we make autoloaders unload faster with more DPM? Because garbage players were trading horribly and dying immediately due to the "weakness" of having a long clip reload.

We hand all these advantages to trash players for free to coddle them so they perform better, but just ignore the fact that good players easily abuse these tanks and that the tanks which get left behind basically have less and less counterplay against these meta tanks.

Balancing with extremes like the Foch isn't the best idea in my book, but if there's clear, exploitable downsides of an extreme, that's better than some tank which is so well rounded that it handles itself just fine in almost every situation. Which is what current autoloaders have.

[final warren]

How is the foch going to balance other autoloaders. I would rather nerf other autoloaders and figure out something for the foch that doesn't let it one clip 70% of tier X

[stuck acorn]

no it won't lol. Sadly for some unknown reason every single autoloader at t10 except for TVP and BC25t must have completly busted pen. Not to mention that as vents are borderline worthless everybody uses cali on them boosting it up even further.

50b? 357 APCR
T57? 374 HEAT
Foch? 407 HEAT
4005? 389 APCR
Yoh? 352/363 HEAT depending on a gun

There is no way any armor in the game will help you with that. You are going to get eaten alive regardless

Giving autoloaders lower pen is also a way to balance them in some way as they desperately need to keep up high effectiveness in order to compete btw

[remote oriole]

I won‘t disagree with the idea that the current autoloaders are poorly balanced, but I definitely disagree with the idea of these extra large magazines

I think the current autoloaders are poorly balanced because WG tries to make tanks that are extremely good at dealing damage average at winning, leading to insanely potent damage machines. Although allegedly they don‘t balance by stats anymore, but by roles so maybe they will finally stop making autoloaders average at winning

[burnt venture]

it wasn't for fixing all the other autoloaders with another autoloader, it was just for Foch

IMO extra large magazines with a slow unload time could provide interesting gameplay while being more balanced than whatever we have right now. But ofc there's more to it than just the reload time

And the assumption of "oh but it kills other tanks faster" is purely isolating the game into a 1v1 situation. Which is already a dumb thing to do in and of itself

[random frost]

Do we know what these “roles” are and which tanks they’re comprised of?
Is there a summary somewhere?
Thx!

[remote oriole]

I can see it being balanced but either the intra clip is long, the accuracy is horrible, the alpha is low or armour/mobility is lacking, otherwise it would be a balancing disaster

This game also has 1vs1 situations, and I talked about a standard frontline situation before, so it‘s not like I only focus on 1vs1

[real bison]

#devs-answers message

unusual since they seem to be doing it and not doing it at the same time

[final warren]

I agree large magazines with slow interclip would be interesting. I just don't like the idea of it being able to one clip all the mediums, all the lights, and all the TDs but 2. Lower the dmg to 1800 and I'll be happy to explore the idea.

And I'm not saying "oh but it kills other tanks faster" and isolating the game into 1v1s. In fact, I'm doing the exact opposite by talking about how it would impact team gameplay

Why are you so set on having the foch be able to one clip 70% of tier X? Why not lower it to 1700 or 1800 dmg so that it still accomplishes everything you are saying, but without being able to kill most of tier X in 11 seconds

[meager magnet]

Except this mf😑

[teal crystal]

???

[brittle prism]

Hello everyone i am new to the discord .
I want to talk about the amx 50 b
Back then the amx did 400 damage with 3 round and i think it was better than now
Because i personaly don t like the woping relode for 4 round of 380 damage
And by the way french teck tree need a buff

[burnt venture]

it wasn't even my idea, but I'd rather have big mistakes be punished than lose 1200 in an instant because of a single peek or someone decided to yolo

And you're still completely underestimating just how long 12 seconds is in a battle. Tanks can move a third of the way across the map in that time

[queen geyser]

Hello new to the discord, I think there are many people who think that the 50b was way better before but sadly we cant change that, so we need to work with what we get. I also pretty recently grinded the french heavy tanks and I think they dont need a buff, they are very fine atm

[final warren]

That doesn't really answer my question

You can't get a third of the way across a map in 11, not 12, seconds from a standstill in anything but ideal conditions. And that's assuming the tank is already turned the right direction, and also assuming the tank isn't one of the many non maneuverable tanks 1920 dmg can clip.

I am not underestimating how long 11 seconds is. That's two shots from a HoRi. I have had plenty of times where I get two shots out consecutively in a HoRi, and a HoRi is less maneuverable than a foch. I would argue that you are underestimating the damage that 1920 dmg clip will do on a mobile, albeit turret less platform.

Again, why not reduce it to 1700 dmg? Why are you so set on having the ability to kill 70% of tier X in one clip? 1700 dmg is still a huge punish, and a huge reward for 11 seconds of time on target. Why is it so vital that you can one clip 7/10 tier X tanks if it will never happen? Shouldn't the foch be punished for making mistakes? I just don't get why you want to be able to clip 70% of tier X.

I know it wasn't your idea, but you are really the only one advocating for it

[queen geyser]

I grind tank. :)
Tank is bad. :(
Me angry. >:(
I go WoTB offical discord and ask for broken buffs. :D

[burnt venture]

nobody is "set" on anything. But it definitely takes skill and positioning to get the full clip off without killing yourself before you even get those shots in, and Foch has enough drawbacks already that this happening would be very rare. What would more likely than not happen is you'd peek, trade a couple shots, then disengage so you don't die. The only situation where the massive clip alpha comes into play would be against one single tank, and that tank also cannot have tons of DPM because then you'd be trading too much of your HP to even clip it.

You and Lux are both talking about this as if everything is just a gun in a vaccuum while saying that somehow having the clip damage just overrides all the awful downsides the tank has already. That's going to be very far from reality, when even the current Foch struggles to get both its shots to pen in 3.5 seconds. The Foch gun isn't reliable at all, it can't get shots in all situations, nor does it have the flexibility to just yolo something down like TVP or 50B or 4005.

The two-shot 640 foch we had was broken, because it had full 960 HE and could one-clip Grille and other tanks. Now we have spall liner, we have more armor / HP / firepower in tier X than ever before. A 3 shot Foch would be no more ridiculous than the current 4005 or TVP, while being more difficult to play well due to having the long intraclip.

Both you and Lux are most likely not understanding just how rare it is to get full-clips with a long intraclip autoloader. Your target has to basically be isolated and be unable to runaway (aka heavy tanks). It won't happen often enough to have situations like the ones you're describing. A 3 shot Foch will most of the time just be heavy tank support.

[stone drum]

not everyone used calibrated btw

[nimble zodiac]

High pen autoloaders are just another coping mechanism for heavies being WG’s favorite children

[stuck acorn]

every even half decent player uses calibrated and only calibrated on autoloaders. Vents are just useless

You could maybe somehow get away with using them on 4005, but on everything else it's just pointless

I would personally go even further and remove calibrated completely. Imo they are just breaking the game

@orchid grove 32 seconds is probably a bit too long. This tank should have low DPM but i think you've gone a bit too far. It would just make it completly unable to move for over half of the game and pretty useless. Something like 25-6s would be much more suitable. It still gives it pretty poor DPM, but doesn't make it harmless for enough time to get killed like 3 times lol

@stone drum instead of complicating everything like that you just remove them at this point lol. 1 second off from intraclip is so huge that running vents would be 100% mandatory on every single autoloader. Pretty dumb idea imo

[orchid grove]

People really underestimate how long 5.5s intraclip would be. And if the tank has a suitably long reload following it (thinking like 32s), then you can actually counter-cripple it.

A 5.5s interclip would mean that a Foch will have to be very careful with his ammo management. Most of the time, without proper planning, you'll find yourself only firing 1 or 2 of the shells, and you don't want to be caught on that long reload.

You have to remember dealing that full 1920 clip potential means you not only have to find a target for 11s, but also hit all 3 shells, AND start the fight fully loaded

[final warren]

If full clips won't happen enough to be relevant, then there should be no issue with reducing the total dmg to 1700.

I'm not saying the clip dmg overrides the other weaknesses. I'm saying that it will add more toxicity to the game, so reducing it to 1700 will significantly reduce it's toxicity.

Also, you say it wouldn't be able to yolo a high dpm tank, I would disagree. Take any tank below 1920 HP (and not autoloader), and it is worth it. The 263 would do 920 dmg before it dies. That's worth it. An obj 140 would do 900 dmg before it dies. Also worth it.

My main point isn't that the tank will be effective, it's that the tank will add toxicity to the game with 1920 dmg. That's why I'm saying just reduce it to 1700 and I'd be ok with it

You guys are banking on RNG and other weaknesses not making it a toxic tank. But RNG is what makes the 183 such a toxic and played tank.

@burnt venture
By 1700 I just meant something that would only one clip 10% of tier X instead of everything baring heavy tanks

[burnt venture]

Where are you getting 1700 though, that's a weird alpha number. You mean 560 x 3 for 1680?

[stone drum]

Ho-ri is more mobile than foch, however it is significantly slower.

@stuck acorn here's an idea, make vents take 1 second off the shell reload time for autoloaders, then nerf every autoloader/autoreloader's intraclip/shell reload time by 1 second.
wouldn't effect me because I run vents on everything lol

1700 is lame... make it 750×2 1500.

[orchid grove]

Because alpha still matters on clippers. Especially with an 11s unload time. Since you're not going to get the full clip out, the shells you do hit need to count

[teal crystal]

that's assuming they don't take module damage on the way to you or trying to maneuver to flank

[final warren]

So let me get this straight.

My worry is that the tank will be toxic, and that trollers will flock to this tank, creating passive, unexciting gameplay similar to the 183. They will either sit in a spot and prevent any pushes on a flank, or they will yolo semi isolated tanks. Even if you don't get fully clipped, you'll still lose 1280 HP. Then the foch will die. This would be toxic to both teams

Your counter argument is that the tank has bad RNG, long interclip reload, and no turret. Because of those things, what I mentioned won't happen, is what you're saying?

If that's what you're saying, I really don't think trolls will care about bad RNG, interclip reload, or no turret. They will still camp or yolo, and create bad gameplay. If they did care about those things, they wouldn't play the 183.

Additionally, 3 shots mean that the max dmg skill will be activated 1/3 of the time.

@burnt venture 183 has bad accuracy. That doesn't stop anyone. The fact that it usually won't doesn't make a tank non toxic. What makes a tank toxic is the possibility

[dry rivet]

Foch went from being feared to now just annoying to face. There are many instances where the old Foch 155 can kill in a clip, and now it cannot.

[burnt venture]

bad accuracy is 100% a valid argument. That means that the tank most likely won't drive at you and hit every shot

[jade cargo]

Ashab#9580 has been warned.

[remote oriole]

I am perfectly aware of how rare it is, hence why I initially discussed a typical frontline scenario where people just peek each other, where your proposed autoloader still has a massive reload advantage (allowing it to pre-aim)

I would argue the contrary: You underestimate just how short five seconds are. Because if we go away from trying to clip one tank that is peeking once (five seconds is long for a peek) and move back to standard gameplay where people play out their armour, reload and alpha, you will find that five seconds is the shortest reload any singleshot can offer. And with a large magazine of six items, you are for all intents and purposes a single shot with insanely short reload for said six shots.

Now if you think of how you play your Object 140 and T-62A, I doubt that you will try to shoot a single target until it‘s dead, but instead select your targets based on whatever you value. Your proposed autoloader could do the same: trade with one guy, shoot another, go into cover, then shoot someone else etc. There is absolutely no need to dump everything in one enemy, and I doubt people did that all the time with how the old Foch was (with a much more reasonable 7s intraclip). Giving some perspective, the Grille 15 reloads around 12 seconds for 600 damage. Half that time for the same damage is just insanely short, and the Foch really isn‘t that bad of a gun platform to make that not op. I mean, it literally was op when it had more alpha with the old intraclip, so I can only imagine the insane heights it will go to with your proposal

[burnt venture]

it has a massive reload advantage compared to a single tank. But it will definitely not just hold off 3 tanks like you said before, because the single shot trading is just not worth the HP you're risking in a Foch to continuously peek around a corner. Nobody will just sit there in a Foch for 12 seconds, that's how you die like a moron.

And if you don't dump it all into a single target, you're still stuck with a clip reload without clearing any guns which is then free real estate for all enemies.

[remote oriole]

I never said that it will hold off three tanks

I mean if you can hold off three tanks in a single tank then the enemy is just giving it to you, that has nothing to do with you or your tank

A magazine reload that isn‘t particularly long, and as you noted, this isn‘t a game of 1vs1 so reloading is not that problematic if it‘s below 15s

[burnt venture]

Positive says 30 sec reload tho 😂

2.6k DPM, like an IS-7

wouldn't a sub 15 sec clip reload on this be like well over 3k DPM?

[remote oriole]

Feels like a game of Simon says now XD

I don‘t know, could actually be balanced, but would be kind of weird because of that extreme downtime. Not my style but I mean, we have 61 tier ten tanks, so if a bunch were like that I wouldn‘t care, so long as they don‘t turn the whole game upside down like autoloaders currently are

Depends on the alpha, with six shots, 5s intra and 500 alpha (alpha like now) you‘d have 15s reload + 25s intra = 40s meaning 9 shots per minute resulting in 4500 dpm XD

[meager magnet]

Rhm got nerfed so bad I mean I suddenly lose more on it after the changes I think it's because of the nerf

[main tulip]

People already complain that it's too hard to get out 1520 in 9 (now 8.1) seconds on the AMX 50b. 1900 in 11 with the turretless and less accurate Foch will be just as hard, if not even more difficult.

[main tulip]

I was honestly thinking 750x2 might be viable as well lol

[final warren]

Not if I don't care about surviving. What I'm worried about has nothing to do with how balanced the tank is.

1920 dmg in and of itself is toxic in my eyes. I don't want Blitz gameplay to go that way.

I realize that if you want to actually win and be effective, you will rarely get a full clip out. But I can guarantee you that I would be able to yolo and kill any medium, light, or TD tank, at no fault of that tank. I might die right after, but that's not my point.

I just don't like how 1920 dmg clip would affect gameplay, regardless of whether a skilled player or troll is playing it. I see zero benefit from doing something like this, only possible negatives. Unless of course, it has 1700 dmg instead of 1920. Then I could see benefits.

There's no way to know how toxic/OP/weak/balanced the tank would be anyhow, because I doubt WG would ever make this change.

[burnt venture]

"I don't want blitz gameplay to go that way", yet 1400 in under 5 sec is just ok

Big clips isn't a problem. Fast intraclip is. Autoloaders with small clips, high DPM, and fast unload times are the problem.

[abstract monolith]

Make the maus mechanics back to the old one its accurate not just the new because the cheeks of the maus can be damage and the upperplate

[stuck acorn]

That's literally the EXACT POINT of this change

[stone drum]

The old Foch was op in an old, bygone meta. You could bring back that foch and it still would be an average tier X.

[final warren]

I never said 1400 in under 5 seconds is ok. In fact I said that I didn't like it, and it needs changed. What you are proposing isn't just a big clip, it's a massive clip. 1400 is a big clip.

I don't like the idea of a 1920 dmg clip, and I don't like 1400 dmg clips under 5 seconds. Those two thoughts do not conflict

@main tulip I completely agree. We can/should have slower interclip reloads, but still have large clips.

[main tulip]

Big clip is a better way to introduce diversity than something like the Yoh clip. Flexible and fast autoloaders are the toxic ones to deal with, not big clips.

[stone drum]

750×2 with like a 8.2s intraclip could be balanced.
A skilled player could either escape without punishment in that time or alternatively they could when utilizing such a clip, time it so they could poke a heavy once, just barely outreload them and poke again in hopes of achieving minimal return fire.

@stuck acorn I'm just pulling out PC numbers. I don't think a 155mm gun with full alpha and a short intraclip can be balanced.

[stuck acorn]

750 seems like a bit too much alpha for 155mm gun, it could get 680 just like E3 tho or 690 like 268v4

[final warren]

I would be fine with that, it could be balanced without being toxic

[stone drum]

My personal suggestion for a gun would be something like this to replace the singleshot 155mm.
400×3.
3-3.2s intraclip. 16-16.5s clip reload
Ap/ap/he
298/340/65
400/380/515 alpha
1067/1067/1067
.316 base dispersion
(3s maxed aimtime)
+-10° gun arc, 6° gun depression
.18/.18/.8 handling
+2kph top speed, +7kph reverse speed

-Remove ugly side skirts.

[dry rivet]

A 155mm gun only dealing 400? A 105, 120, and 130 gun does that. And 400 is on the lower end of a 130

[stone drum]

🤦‍♂️
I'm not going to even going to répond to that... it's a suggestion for a 120mm...

[dry rivet]

1. you just did. You responded with ping
2. it’s strange to have a 120 on a tank that has “155” in its own name. AMX 50 Foch 155 🤷‍♀️

[stone drum]

it's strange to have a 155mm on a tank that was entirely concieved to mount à 120mm...

The idea of the 155 was always stupid imo. Plus the 120mm looks way better.

[dry rivet]

So you want the Foch 120 to jump from tier 9 to 10?

[stone drum]

...
No, I want a form of Foch B in blitz....

[dry rivet]

Then why didn’t u say so in the beginning?

[jade cargo]

MH-02-Vijay#7043 has been warned.

[frigid torrent]

which medium is the best?

[sweet skiff]

leopard 1, tvp t50/51

[hot glade]

Which heavy is the best ? for ratings?

[abstract monolith]

Maus armor should be buff cuz the upperplate can be damage by some other tanks

[humble depot]

Whatever heavy you do best in.

[final warren]

TVP. One of the best tanks I'm game. It'll probably be nerfed soon because of it tho.

If you grind for the strongest tanks, chances are they will be nerfed within a few months and then you might not like it. You'd be better off figuring out which tank's play style you like the most, and then grind that one

[orchid grove]

@frigid torrent This guy's got it right

[humble depot]

I’d also like to nominate the E 50M

[final warren]

I mean Leo 1 isn't exactly an easy medium. It has a high ceiling, but it has a high floor too

[deep temple]

pls fix the server

[frigid torrent]

i do have m48 patton which is nice. now going for STB 1. i do want TVP but i m afraid of being nerfed

@sweet skiff @final warren @orchid grove thank you guys for helping out. i also have wz 121 but it lacks gun depression.🥹

[novel ruin]

The ST Emil should have more shells

[faint arch]

Wow today I noticed the Tiger I has 178mm of frontal armor???

[harsh pebble]

take away super consumbles on conqueror and fv215b and buff the speed or/and armour

[thorny timber]

Fv215b just needs an Armor profile change + slightly more top speed and to compensate for it remove s.consumables,the structure of hull and some spots at turret can be buttered by high pen TDs,the gun is still very nice with average to nice handling considering it's peers e5 and type 71

[mental grail]

The mitsu 108 have now a really big weack point on the front that make him unplayable can you please change that?

[stuck acorn]

If it's in exchange for removing all superconsumables, i'm all for it. This would be a step in right direction a.k.a removing this crap out of the game entirely

[stone drum]

I think It would have to be properly implemented though, so as to not destroy the tanks.

Just dropping the super consumables would effectively crippled the conqueror for example.

[stuck acorn]

i know. I never said they should be removed without any compensation. Grille even now isn't a good tank, i don't even want to imagine how garbage would it be if it got spall liner removed without reverting it back to pre nerf state

[stone drum]

Not just compensation, proper compensation. Ie a 50hp buff isn't compensation.

[remote oriole]

Just make the gun hitbox even bigger

[stuck acorn]

I know. For example for Fv215b it could be reverting ufp nerf and giving it 38/40 kph top speed. For conqueror it could be better gun handling so that it more resembles FV215b's one (ofc it still would be worse, but not so much worse)

[stone drum]

Mhm

[stone drum]

What do you think could replace the reactive armour consumable?

[stuck acorn]

I think combined armor and mobility buffs should be enough to compensate for reactive armor, turbocharger and sandbag armor all together on FV. On conqueror i'd avoid giving it anything besides better gun handling as this tank is already a nightmare to face in anything that isn't T10 or T9 superheavy. If you really want to, you can slightly buff the reload or something, but for me this tank is fine

[burnt venture]

Reactive makes no sense in randoms anyway. It was mostly an addition for competitive use.

A survivability consumable which only works when enemies shoot and pen you isn't useful in randoms over adrenaline

[stuck acorn]

yeah, i don't think i ever used it in randoms actually

[viral sedge]

do u guys think that

[stone drum]

I suppose it allows you to play more aggressively or trade more favourably.

Personally though I like the super-speedboost

[burnt venture]

It's so situational though that it makes no sense to run outside of tournaments

The only value you get out of reactive is if enemies shoot you and pen when the consumable is active. And it can't be HE, or that does full damage. It's only useful if you are in select situations:

• 1v1 where the enemy has high DPM and can pen you consistently
• pushing the enemy, where you are expected to take multiple penetrating shots
• being pushed by multiple targets, where you are expected to be circled and surrounded

In randoms, there is a clear lack of focus fire from enemies during a push (and no reason at all to push completely alone vs. multiple tanks), and if you are being surrounded by multiple enemies, you've misplayed already and reactive makes just about as much difference. And this is before we consider the massive cost of losing an extra repair kit, since the multi-kit cooldown is massively increased over a regular repair kit. So you've suddenly just put a lot more pressure on a multi-kit with a 90s cooldown.

So the value of reactive in battle is just so much lower than running Adrenaline, an extra repair kit, or super speed boost (on tanks that have both). It's just not a good choice because it's a purely defensive consumable, and if enemies don't pen you, it doesn't matter if you have it anyway lol.

And the "oh but I can survive an extra shot" argument doesn't work when adrenaline exists, like you can just run adrenaline, which you can use to boost DPM in any situation, and still get an extra shot off before you go down which makes the same difference in pubs.

I've always just been completely baffled why anybody would run reactive in randoms, especially stuff like 268v4 or E5 or Chimera. It's unecessary and 90% of the time it makes little to no difference and has no value. The cost to benefit ratio is very bad.

[final warren]

Eh, I think you're under estimating reactive. I would rather run adrenaline too, but reactive has it's uses in randoms too.

Surviving an extra shot is very useful. And reactive armor is most effective against autoloading tanks, which is currently the meta. Being able to reduce 1400 dmg to 1000 dmg is a big deal. It's also good for making critical pushes.

But I agree, adrenaline is better 7/10 times unless you are planning on using reactive

[glad cove]

Titan 54d armor consumable reduces dmg but it doesn't feel like it

[stone drum]

I mean if your playing something like a hypothetical TVP with reactive armour I could see the benefit.

@nimble zodiac atleast it's not a TVP with clip reload boost and reticle calibration..

[nimble zodiac]

DO NOT give WG the idea 😰

TVP practically has permanent ret cal

[ancient rampart]

Eh don’t worry WG doesn’t read this lol

[main tulip]

TVP with tungsten 🤯

[burnt venture]

The very general point though is that reactive only gets its value out of penetrating shots. And in randoms, that goes completely against the point of gameplay. Whereas adrenaline gets its value out of firing, which is exactly what you'd want.

You shooting at enemies is going to happen way more than enemies shooting and penetrating you, especially on tanks like E5 or 268v4 which already have tons of armor.

And also consider that you'd be replacing at the very least a repair kit, which has just as high of a value considering your point about autoloaders, I'd rather not have crippling module damage for 60+ seconds than prevent a couple hundred extra HP of damage while not being able to play the game.

For a game built upon doing damage and not taking it back, reducing only the damage you take definitely takes the back seat when you can increase your damage dealing effectiveness. I'd still only use this in tourneys because that's the only place where you continuously drive into enemy fire during pushes.

Not saying reactive is useless, but the things you give up in that consumable slot, plus the nature of how randoms games play, makes it really not worth it. It only has applicability in few situations and therefore has low value compared to other consumables

[glad cove]

Why do you write a whole chat gpt designed article over this when it isn't even valid

[stone drum]

💀

[humble depot]

🤓

[burnt venture]

You must be new around here 🗿

[nimble zodiac]

Now write an article explaining why the previous article is invalid 😈

[ionic egret]

rev waiting for tortoise armour buff:

[willow hawk]

If you’re gonna accuse somebody’s well-invested “article,” you should present your own explanation to reinforce your dissenting opinion. Otherwise, you show yourself a mere court jester in front of everyone.

[glad cove]

Ok guys it's time to move on and/or get over it. What I said is not that big of a deal. Calm down

[nimble zodiac]

Step 1: Walk into a server and chill for about a week
Step 2: Look into a serious channel, to its active participants
Step 3: Call out a well written argument and make fun of its serious nature
Step 4: Play your message off as a joke to people who are not joking
Step 5: I hope you have a good day :D

@queen geyser Elaborate

[queen geyser]

If you think about it repair kits goes completly against the point of gameplay

[glad cove]

Fr fr

[remote oriole]

I disagree. The point of gameplay is to be a tactical shooter. Being crippled for the rest of a match is unlikely to improve the experience

[glad cove]

And I don't think origin would want to be stuck if slg tracked them

[jade cargo]

topG_TATE#4320 was banned.

[brave dragon]

The point of a game is that it should be a game; it is not a simulator.

[celest magnet]

tvp needs a nerf

[queen geyser]

It was a joke referring to the discussion about reactive armor

[unique scaffold]

Yes and everything have 200mm pen above can pen it’s front.

[ebon lynx]

For blitz standards, the IRL Tiger armor is just weak

[faint arch]

Yeah, I was having trouble penning in the VZ.44 and was wondering to myself why I wasn't penning that big flat plate, well there you go. 😔had to start shooting gold it really messes with my head that its that armored, we be driving the History Channel version of the Tiger I 🥺

[burnt venture]

This just shows the armor powercreep lol

At this point you basically need that 200mm of pen to deal with a lot of tier 7 heavy tanks, which means that meds, LTs, and tier 6s just suffer against tier 7s.

You shoot gold, you reduce your already terrible DPM fighting tanks like Black Prince and Tiger I, and it also doesn't help at all that tier 7 is where superconsumables start appearing on the heavy tanks that have them.

[stuck acorn]

I mean Tiger is not a huge deal to pen with standard, even for T6s in a lot of cases as it's more of a med than heavy (ofc it doesn't change the fact that it's extremely effective and has tons of HP). True problems are T29 and Black Prince. These 2 are not penetrable without gold most of the time and even with gold are still hard to deal with. Not to mention that they have even more HP. Black Prince can use sandbags which gives it HP comparable to a T8 heavy. That is just sick

[unique scaffold]

pls nerf clippers, only smasher and anni outplay them (and maybe tutels)

[stuck acorn]

Low tier clippers are mostly fine, but yeah, T10 autoloaders definetly need some rework

[burnt venture]

Bruh Tiger I armor is stupid good for even just a regular heavy.

The lower plate is 160mm effective straight on. That's already past the standard pen of almost all tier 6s and many tier 7 LTs and meds. If you angle the tank in any way, it's going to be 170, 180, then it's bouncing heavy tanks. In comparison, the IS has a 120mm effective lower plate. Hell, the IS's turret cheeks are weaker than the Tiger I lower plate.

It also doesn't help that the PBR conveniently put tracks on the lower plate, so there's no actual way for players to tell when the supposed "weakspot" is even penetrable.

And this is before the dented spaghetti coder that decided the sideskirts on Tiger I should be 67mm, which gives it Russian levels of black hole armor even when shooting the broadside. The upper side itself is already 88mm. The lower sides are only 67mm, but the tracks count as 40mm of armor, so it's actually more than that. The thing almost has the side armor of an FV215B.

To the majority of medium and light tank players, unless they're playing a tier 8, the Tiger I is a red tomato that bombs around at 40kph with medium power to weight, traverse, and a tier 8 gun with tier 8 pen and DPM. And even if you're playing a tier 8, the tank is still a menace because it has enough pen to ignore a lot of armor. Surely very fun and balanced to deal with lmao

The amount of handholding that WG has done with the entire E100 line is utterly ridiculous and Tiger I is a prime example of that

Edit: If you want to see how overcooked tier 7 heavy tanks are, try to go ace one. You most likely won't be able to do this easily, because acing a tier 7 heavy takes about the same XP as acing a tier X heavy. Surely there's no problems with mid-tier balancing at all.

[unique scaffold]

Lmao ace tiger 1 having another problem is that some guys are still in bots with their tiger, which they can abuse those bots to deal massive dmg as almost all bots in tier 6-7 are all stock tanks.
The only threat to tiger I in bots are dealing with IS2 as it have access to the 400 alpha gun, and other players.
Saw some tiger 1 with the fox camo there, seem like those abused the bots too much

[stuck acorn]

Well i have all of these tanks aced already for a long time, and i think i aced all of them at least once or twice after the buff. I didn't play Tiger 1 after PBR change so maybe it is a problem, but i thought it didn't change the armor that much.

I'd still rather fight with Tiger 1 than T29 or Black Prince though

@burnt venture Tiger 1 may do better becasue of it's nearly medium like mobility, but if you are a good player you at least stand a chance to do something to him. While on the other hand T29 in hulldown is basically immune to everything and black prince can just yolo you using super speed boost and there is nothing you can do.

Basically Tiger will most likely do more damage in game, due to his mobilty, but you stand a chance to fight him off in some ways at least. T29 and black prince are slow and usually won't do this much, but when they manage to get to you and are at least average players, you are basically already dead regardless of what you do

[burnt venture]

the Tiger I does much better than T29 or Black Prince though, it bullies lower tiers way better and does better in higher tiers. But yeah sure it's easier to fight cuz it has less armor, provided you have the basically 200mm of pen that you need to consistently pen this thing

[jade cargo]

MALKAH#8141 was banned.

𝘽𝙚𝙨𝙝𝙩𝙞𝙚#4572 has been warned.

[stone drum]

ahhh the days when ARL could reliably pen a tiger with standard...

[drowsy plaza]

Ah yes the tier 6 with tier 8 pen…. Seemed very legit 😜. The old ARL was a prime example of a terrible balance decision where a tank could legitimately drive straight at enemies and mostly win due to pen and DPM.

[stone drum]

Mhm, and when à tank like that struggles to penetrate à heavium you can see the balance issues.

As for the ARL itself they should have just nerfed the dpm and left the penetration alone or should have just given the AMX 50s their proper 90mm which was (in reality) seperate from the ARL's 90mm.

@burnt venture they actually buffed the dpm, ARL now sports 2200 dpm and is actually even more insane against tier 6s.

[stuck acorn]

There is that BP version that uses 105mm already. Tech tree ARL feels much better with 90mm, they should have left it as it is

[drowsy plaza]

I really wish that WG would stop taking the cheap way out on modules and not constantly link certain guns etc to multiple tanks. If you have the same gun on different tiers of tanks, the top gun on one can be the stock on the next tier - but not the top gun on multiple tiers, as then one of those tiers is going to be out of whack. Again it took 6 years to split the Obj140 and T-62A guns so I guess I’m asking to much.

[queen geyser]

Wdym exactly by that? I rly like when Im grinding for example Amx 50 100 i alr have the top gun cause of BC or when I grind Wz 1-4 i alr have the top gun cause of Wz120, thats pretty neat no?

[burnt venture]

They re-use certain guns with the same shells on different tanks. Which makes sense IMO, that's actual standardization which is good.

Things like alpha and penetration should be more standardized, and can be balanced out by reload, gun handling, or other characteristics of the tank in the first place.

It's certainly a strange direction they've taken to go around introducing new shells to the game which have different alpha / different penetration when they could just, uh, balance the tanks using other parameters than the guns, which was one of the most standardized parts of the game.

[faint arch]

The Tiger 1 retaining the mobility of a tank with 120mm of armor while sporting nearly 200mm is most of the problem yeah. There isn't a weak point you can exploit. The fact that a Tiger 1 can just rush my vz.44 headlong and win because better dpm + better armor is absolutely silly

[final warren]

Yeah I'm not a fan of having to memorize these new alpha dmgs

[tired saffron]

Yea tigers are a menace ngl

[drowsy plaza]

Sure that is easy for players, and as long it is occurs in tier it isn’t a major issue the issue is if you have a tier 6 with a tier 8 lines top gun, then either the tier 6 is going to just point and shoot anything it sees, or the tier 8 is in a heck of a lot of trouble. Having the top gun being the stock gun on a next tier isn’t an issue either.

[queen geyser]

I still dont know whats the Problem is iirc tanks of diffrent tiers are either completly fine for example Amx 50 100 with the Bc 25tap gun or mostly have a twist in stats, either a reroll diffrence or something completly diffrent for example the Chi Ri carries the tier 6 gun but as a autoloader with 3 shells and good dpm

[stuck acorn]

if tanks sharing the gun are of different classes then i'm fine with it. For example TD can have same gun as higher tier heavy.

There is a problem only if it's about tanks of same class and tier difference is more than 1, as with 1 tier you can balalnce it our with just some reload differences, but i don't think there is any other line other than french heavies where such a thing happens

[twilit crystal]

Why would you want more grind lmao

[formal timber]

buff the penetration of IS-7

[stuck acorn]

buff your skill and stop asking for buffs to meta tanks

[fading crescent]

honestly the is7 is really good tank and is really fun but it would be nice to have atleast 310 pen with rammer

[indigo bronze]

Give tvp 15 sec mag reload, 5 shells and 0.1 inter clip reload

[pine bison]

@everyone Grille 15 should have more Camo values, more traverse speed & more alpha #BringBackTheOldGrille

[humble depot]

Except the WZ-111 and 120 don’t share a top gun…

[abstract monolith]

Buff the turret armor of maus just like e 100

[twin egret]

I think we're all still really confused on what you're trying to say. What I can gather is that it has to do with modules with many modules. Some modules are shared across with tanks, and that if it's researched on one tank, and one or more tanks happens to share that module, it is unlocked for all.

Is the issue regarding lower tier tanks having modules that are typically seen on higher tier tanks? Such that the tier difference is more than 1? Is it regarding the issue of unlocking said high tier modules too early or the power they have at lower tiers or both?

iirc, if WG tries balancing guns seen on lower tiers but it is shared with a higher tier tank, they just add a supplemental letter to the gun the lower tier has (usually...). Best example I can give are the 105mm guns on the Cent 7/1 and FV4202. A few updates ago, they both shared the same two guns word for word, but in some point during the whole rework shenanigans, they added a letter K to the end of the the names of the 105mm guns for the Cent 7/1 only, leaving the FV4202 with the original names.

Tank Destroyers usually have "AT" at the end of their gun names. WG almost basically copy pasted from the guns seen on heavies/meds/lights, put them on TDs, then added the "AT" as a discriminator to make them act as a completely different gun.

Going back to the first paragraph, some tanks have a gun module that is shares the same name as another gun seen on a different tank, but each act independently rather than both guns being the same. S. Conq gun and FV215b gun for example. Same names, but different stats. I think the same is with the Badger and FV4005 but I could be wrong.

[final warren]

Anyone else think heavies need a dpm nerf? Just me?

Have they always had this high dpm?

[azure belfry]

Yes

[ebon lynx]

Not all heavies have high dpm
Nerfing the dpm highly depends on the tank and its other captabilites

[stone drum]

That sounds like à bad idea just giving flat nerfs indiscriminate of the state, power, or even rôle of the vehicle...

[final warren]

I didn't mean all heavies, sorry I should've been more specific. I just mean that it feels the average dpm of heavy tanks as a group is going up

More specifically, the heaviums. It seems like they are really intruding on medium tank space. Their mobility isn't bad, they have lots of HP, good armor compared to mediums, good dpm, and view range isn't really detrimental to gameplay

@ebon lynx fixed it

[ebon lynx]

Average damage doesn't really mean dpm

[thorny timber]

some heavies might have too much dpm but some heavies have too low of a dpm to begin with

[autumn zodiac]

And yet most heavies are excessively durable

Beyond what a normal heavy should be

[stone drum]

I mean what even is normal anymore...

[autumn zodiac]

Tier 7 meds, rarely ever rebalanced at all

[thin swift]

Bc 25 t need a buff

[stuck acorn]

they are not normal by any means. They are extremely underpowered.

And not only because of wave of buffs to all their competitors that have been going on for years now, they weren't competitive since the beginning

Whole T7 needs an emergency rebalance'

[orchid grove]

They were very competitive back in 2014/2015, especially before all of the tier VII heavy buffs, and the introduction of broken tanks.

Rudy, T-43, Comet, were all considered very strong back in the day, and even tanks like T20 weren’t half bad

[stuck acorn]

i could agree that rudy and comet were strong, but i wouldn't call T-43 competitive. Not to mention that they lost their viability very long before recent heavy buffs and even introduction of first modern overpowered T7 a.k.a smasher. When WG introduced dracula and hellsing in 2016 these tanks were already underperforming

[stone drum]

mhm, sad.

[autumn zodiac]

Don't forget panther 1, it was basically a better black prince

[stuck acorn]

it wasn't panther that was particulary strong. It's just that the black prince was absolutely terrible

[real bison]

you know what I wanna talk about?

Reverse speeds.

why do tanks like the 60TP and V4 get such ridiculous reverse speeds

they do not deserve to have them

you can make an idiotic mistake and be cleared by either your armour, or reverse speed, or both

[stone drum]

From what I've played in Warthunder (and to à lesser extent foch), I believe the reason for that is because if you overextend without support your essentially dead.
If your trying to hold a position or do something and suddenly say your team-mate décidés that today their tank is infact an audi rally car and just leaves, then that can leave you stranded with no way out.

[willow girder]

Why can't my HESH round pen the side of the Sheridan or the back too, no matter where I shoot it, it won't pen.

[nimble zodiac]

Only non-spaced parts of Sheridan's armor can be truly penetrated by HE shells, and Sheridan is covered in spaced armor. The main parts you have to shoot for HE (which includes HESH) is the lower plates of both the front and the rear, and the segment between the tracks and the box of the side armor

I suggest looking at blitzhangar's model to get a visual of Sheridan's spaced armor

I dunno, @stuck acorn , most Sheridans are aware of my presence, so yeah, hit the turret if it's turned, but the gun mantlet and armor profile often troll my shells

[stuck acorn]

just shoot the turret ._. much easier to hit and pen

[willow girder]

@nimble zodiac thanks for the information

[sonic plaza]

AMX 30B really needs a serious buff..it's been a while now..... almost every tank is getting a buff ...but this medium is left out.. for quite some years now

[burnt venture]

It's not just tier 7 either, mid tiers in general need to be revamped entirely.

At tier 8, 9, and 10, the power dynamic between tiers is mostly clear cut, while also having exploitable weaknesses which allow lower tier tanks to somewhat contest higher tier tanks. Of course, there's a couple handfuls of problematic tanks at those tiers, but there is not a consistent problem that you see going across those tiers.

At tier 5, 6, and 7, there is a MASSIVE problem with both inter and intra-tier balancing.

Within the tiers themselves, there's a huge power gap between HTs / TDs and the MTs / LTs. This is especially clear at tier 6 and 7, where all heavy tanks and TDs have been buffed repeatedly within the last few years. Think of Tiger I, Tiger P, T29, Black Prince, IS, JPanther, T25AT, T25/2, ARL, M6, VK36, KV-1S, Jagpz IV, Hellcat, etc. Mediums and lights at mid tier are completely behind in terms of firepower, especially penetration, and the mobility gap is lowering (just this last update, several armored heavy tanks and TDs were made faster).

Between these tiers, there's also a huge gap. The DPM difference from tier 6 to 7 has only gotten larger in the past years, and so has the DPM difference from tier 5 to 6. And this is before going into how tier 5 basically ruins tier 4s due to the ability to have provisions and other straight up advantages (as well as the insane proliferation of those derp guns that WG promised to remove, then introduced back as collectors).

These problems are mostly caused by 2 of WG's balancing policys:

• almost exclusively giving significant buffs to heavy tanks and armored TDs in order to make them easier to play, especially against skilled players who favor meds and lts at this tier (which used to be very good if you knew what you were doing)
• the new "role-based" balancing, where entire tiers got rebalanced at once (aka balancing tanks only amongst a single tier and powercreeping the lower tier tanks further)

[night geode]

hope they do something with SuperPershing in the next update.
the armor needs a buff, specially the gun mantlet.

[twin egret]

It's getting PBR soon I think. That should mix up the armour layout a bit

[night geode]

yeah the hull armor gets double space armor just like Fixer but the mantlet i hope it gets better because currently its only 200mm and can be pen easily with medium gold ammunition

[twin egret]

It's missing the send plate of spaced armour on the hull iirc. Irl it had 2 pieces of spaced armour laid over the front of the hull

[inland mirage]

KV-3 and KV-1 needs some serious armor buff

[long light]

Kv1 was already buffed not so long ago

[drowsy plaza]

Why? Tier for tier it’s better than the T110E5 and the T32.

[humble depot]

😂 Man there is no way this ain’t trolling

[queen geyser]

The M103 feels in a pretty good spot after all its a Tl7 with backwards speed and reactive armor

[granite pebble]

so you'd buff other things about the V4 then right? :) Because the reverse speed being 20 is quite frankly one of the main reasons that tank has even a smidgen of viability. If every player was at least a 50%er and knew ANYTHING about how to play, the V4 would have a considerably smaller WR. But alas most players see tank that looks like it can't be penned and either don't shoot, or shoot and dont nothing because they figured that not aiming at a weak spot would surely do something

@night geode keep in mind when looking at any Pershing's gun mantlet armor that armor inspector doesn't take into account the hidden plate behind it

[real bison]

id take away some things, and add something else

the fact that half the cupola is spaced armour needs to go
the reverse speed needs to go

in return, better cheek armour

[thorny timber]

Isn't that what stock tanks are? Pretty sure mostly every stock tank is as bad as it can get

[jade cargo]

racist#4415 was banned.

[twilit crystal]

lol

[ornate warren]

Bruh

[summer pilot]

How to win in bc25t

[stuck acorn]

Well i already mentioned such a thing many times in the past, but i don't expect WG to ever do something like this. I guess for now we need to cope with smaller changes.

That whole tier rebalance thingy makes sense actually. It's just that WG can't utilize a decent idea again.

Rebalancing tiers one by one is a good idea to divide their work and not drop huge rebalance of whole game on their employees at once. It's just that in order to work, EVERY SINGLE tier needs to receive such a rebalance and they should introduce changes to next tier no longer than 2 moths after the previous one.

This is very important as even in this pace rebalancing all significant tiers (6-10) (i'm not saying that we should ignore lower tiers, but WG doesn't add much tanks there so situation doesn't change a lot which means there is no reason to hurry and there are so little tanks there that they can be done all at once some time later) would take 10 months. Such a period of time is enough for them to add around 40 new tanks to the game which by themselves can completly negate all the effect of previous changes if balanced poorly.

[twilit crystal]

Tier 5 provisions are just the 3% boost which is nothing

[night geode]

i calculated all the armor of its mantlet and the fun fact is the main armor behind mantlet is 0mm you can try it yourself, you can hide some armors to get better look, so im sure what im saying

[brittle prism]

Why do the lycan got 328.9 Armor ???

[granite pebble]

Calculated it from what? The armor plates aren't shown in armor inspector if that's what you used

[real bison]

dont use quick overview stats

[night geode]

it does, depends on how to use it.
anyway you can just try it, just use 250mm gold on its mantlet and see if it pens or not

[granite pebble]

....That's what I'm saying. It is not a plate that shows on armor inspector, but it is a plate that is very much in-game

[nimble zodiac]

Probably from the 400mm box inside of it that protects its modules

[stone drum]

I love how uselessly precise the number is...

[jade cargo]

Ashab#9580 has been warned.

[drowsy plaza]

Please use https://blitzanalysiz.com/update/ if you want to compare stats for WR etc.

[stone drum]

Their info is starting to become increasingly dated tbh.

[prisma jetty]

They’re always 2-3 updates behind

[drowsy plaza]

Usually 1.5, as I assume it take time to get the data formatted from the last update.

[drowsy plaza]

Unfortunately it’s way more accurate than any other option. - unless you like manually parsing through the top 100 players in each tank for each update on BlitzStars and building your own database to compare how they do on other tanks etc.

[stone drum]

Well WG did say the developer api was no longer being developed

[drowsy plaza]

@wooden gazelle do you remember the API pull commands? Since BlitzStars still does pulls for individuals and WG was trying to get in touch with both then and BlitzAnalysiz, I assume some sort of solution was trying to be found.

[twin egret]

Sounds like they're trying to redvelop the blitz comparison app imo

[final warren]

That would be neat

[unique scaffold]

I suggest nerf the smasher, just one of them ruin battles enough, a platoon of them is literally 80% winrate because of how overpowered they are without any counters reaching them

[nocturne mauve]

Just nerf heavies in general

[tacit folio]

hey is this tank balanced?

[long light]

Which one

[ancient rampart]

Yeah sure

[tacit folio]

is stug balanced i did this game about 1 hour ago

[long light]

It is balanced, just because you had a very good game doesnt mean its unbalanced, just a strong tank

[stuck acorn]

it is balanced, i wouldn't even call it an above average tank

[stone drum]

Lol, no
Nerfing an entire class directly is generally à horrible idea, as we saw with the old mediums.

[autumn zodiac]

Uh... Old mediums were actually fine after the nerfs

They were balanced

[granite marlin]

there’s a problem with the 452k but i don’t want to shed too much light on it. who can i talk to about it

[autumn zodiac]

What really happened is we got a long period of good balance and as a result, a "shake up to the meta" made a whole class significantly stronger

[frigid torrent]

i just sold the stug, what happend to it??

[frigid torrent]

please dont nerf my object 260 it got nothing to nerf about. its crying out for a buff.which 16 tanks r getting nerf.where is the list

[stone drum]

What are you talking about???
Obj 260 isn't getting nerfed, actually it's supposed to get à Buffed later this year.

[thorny timber]

Smasher should get higher dispersion and lower pen

[granite marlin]

smashers are fine imo
half the people that get nuked by them just are not good players
they see that a smasher is in the game yet they will still drive broadside out

[primal mortar]

Problem? This tank is perfectly fine 🙂

[nimble zodiac]

“This tank is fine because there are dumb players in this game”

Terrible, terrible road to take

[fallen turret]

smasher really need a nerf

[visual sorrel]

Nerf the shiet of of E 100 and give Emil more front armour🔥

[burnt venture]

we're already so far down that road that we can't see where we came from anymore

That's WG's balance policy now, dumb players 1st

[safe falcon]

buff the at line

[twin egret]

The tank is pretty meh

[nimble zodiac]

Smasher is meh? You could honestly just load full HEAT and play the lazy trading game. Granted, Smasher is a defensive tank, meant to defend pushes, not make them, but lobbing an HE shell at a hulldown heavy is still more effective than what other tanks have to offer

[queen geyser]

He is clearly joking

[nimble zodiac]

No? I'd be glad to have the clear joke pointed out to me. For all I see, an opinion is being stated in a serious tone with at least tangible arguments
Well, maybe starting with who you think is joking

[twin egret]

Oh I thought you were referring to the 452K lol

[nimble zodiac]

I get that, though, I used the quote to mostly reference this message: #tank-balance-discussion message

@strange kelp A single 183 can destroy a full hp t10 tank in under 20 seconds if he's good. too OP.

[strange kelp]

2 platoon member FV4005 can destroy a full hp t10 tank in under 20 seconds if both are good. too OP.

[waxen osprey]

U don't need 20. U only need 5.4s

[strange kelp]

which proves my point even more

[humble depot]

So the lack of armour and a fully rotating turret just don’t exist?

[stone drum]

Dumb players first?
That's comical, that would imply that they even consider any other part of the playerbase, especially good players.

[drowsy plaza]

You are playing in the bot queue. Having 366 games means your aren’t fighting a lot of players let alone players with over 5k games.

[granite marlin]

i stand by what i said, smashers are easy to counter if you know what you are doing. if you ran double smasher then i guess you could have an argument but then that would be the same as running any other platoon of 2 of the same tanks

[long light]

So how do you counter it, you say its easy but how lol

[pine skiff]

I need to enter a team tournament tier 7 ,8

[granite marlin]

just don’t be an ape and use your teammates hp. i play meds/lights so half the time i’m not even involved in fights with smashers. but if i’m in a heavy i wouldn’t poke a smasher, for some reason people forget this is a team game so if a smasher actually pokes you chances it loses quite a lot of hit points is high. in conclusion, if you are a good player you have nothing to worry about

[nimble zodiac]

So, ignore the problem unless you're sacrificing your teammate for it?

You're literally just being a good player by farming your teammates and helping when you can (until they inevitably stare at a tank behind a rock while being shot from the side).

The problem is that you literally have to avoid the tank as a solution

[stone drum]

But... every Skilled player can use their super loco powers to make the smasher instantly evaporate.

[wicked quest]

He’s doing the “just don’t get hit” argument it’s most likely bait

[twin egret]

On the topic of balancing what do you guys think about crew skills? Too advantageous or perfectly fine

[real bison]

fine imo

[stone drum]

I mean they take an éternity to grind them, they àre complètely fine.

[solemn nexus]

Lmao nerf the e3 armour, ik it costs the mobility that armour but still

[stuck acorn]

sounds like a skill issue. E3 isn't even close to being as good as it used to be. Just learn how to deal with it

[ancient rampart]

Shoot the lower plate

[granite pebble]

I mean tbf that's literally the reason why the V4 is a pub stomping tank

It's really good in pubs, but the moment anyone knows how to fight it, the tank immediately becomes very meh

[main tulip]

It's actually crazy to me how people just don't notice the cupola on the 268/4. It's honestly about as easy to hit as a chieftain mk 6 cupola imo, which many people are aware of is an issue for it

[stone drum]

The cupola honestly isn't that big.

[dense marlin]

Could someone with wargaming please consider buffing the IS-2SH armor on the turret and/or the hull armor please. The turret armor is simply not good enough anymore.

[uneven turtle]

What tier are u going against regularly tier 9 or 8. If u feel like it’s tier 9s that ur going against in that tank then it’s normal Cus tier 9s start to have too good of pen for t8 matches. It’s simply balanced[relatively speaking]

[unique scaffold]

is russian gun always that terrible to aim?

[agile wave]

it usually has terrible accuracy

[thorny timber]

Usually trades its accuracy with DPM,Armor or godlike alpha

[unique scaffold]

Buff chi to spg speed

[strange kelp]

what do you mean by this? even if i had over 15k battles, im still gonna be against mostly bots??

[queen geyser]

In eu there is beginners mm under 5500 battle u fight mostly against new players aswell, not counting gamemodes, ranting battles or ofc when u platoon with sombody that has over 5500 battles

[frigid oar]

Should the is7 get the 60 kph but
Get more reload time and i little less armour?

[sweet skiff]

it should go 80 km/h

[gloomy anchor]

No ?
60 is too much... even meds don't have this speed

[real bison]

the problem is half of it is spaced armour, and RNG will guide your shots to it

[main tulip]

But what if you're the CEO of RNG

[sacred thorn]

To be fair i rated to say these czsk tank heavy sudden get more damage or better penetration.. i played a few dont like the pen at damage with these armor they got

[safe falcon]

buff at line

[honest knot]

"At line" ? The AT english TD tanks ?

[thorny timber]

The slowpokes,yes

[unique scaffold]

What is the most accurate tank? (Any tier it is)

[stone drum]

The leopard 1

[dense marlin]

@uneven turtle even tier 7s can pen its turret easily with premium ammo

[uneven turtle]

Then wiggle ur mantlet around. Hts aren’t completely impervious and they aren’t necessarily bad cus of it. Take the e100 for example. Even t9s can pen the turret with prem but it’s still an okay tank. And not all t7s can do that

[dense marlin]

Look man, the point is, its not nearly as good as the new heavy tanks and WG should buff it because it has had a TON of power creep over the last few years and it deserves to have something good going for it. It doesnt have great mobility, it doesnt have a really good gun, and it definetly doesnt have good armor, so it should be buffed. Im not gonna argue with you anymore.

[graceful fiber]

1st game ace in the t42

[stuck acorn]

Object 907 has exactly same accuaracy

[stone drum]

Well yes, but I mentioned leopard since it has better handling factors.

[compact nymph]

If he meant accuracy as in purely the dispersion stat, then there’s a few tanks competing. But for overall accuracy, the Leopard does indeed have noticeably better gun handling.

Though I am unsure of what exactly that question has to do with this channel rather than #vehicles-discussion

[sharp forge]

KPZ 70 need Buff ., Either reload time or add some gun depression to 9/10°

[glad cove]

Kranvagn and Emil 2 need their interclips buffed by .5 seconds, the kran is no longer able to stay all that competitive or relevant when it comes to autoloaders/autoreloaders

[elder robin]

Buff the KV-4, its cupola is so anxiously BIG that everyone can pen it because of it, so petition to make the KV-4's cupola to be smaller because its supposed to be a heavy tank not a free HP farmer for enemy tanks (Vote the petition with 📋)
Another thing i want to add is to make the pen of the gun slightly better (Maybe 4 or 6mm of pen more) on the guns as top tier heavies have way better pen than it.
Also buff the mobility as it easily gets flanked, help it stand a chance against meds like cmon

[remote oriole]

And once we did all that, how exactly am I supposed to defeat it?

[elder robin]

You could easily outmaneuver it still, and plus the 175 pen gun (only 179 or 181 pen if it were buffed) would still quite suffer due to something like a centurion.
The mobility wont be buffed drastically to make it broken, and plus you can just aim for the hull or turret cheeks with a TD. It requires the buff because of the cupola being goofy large.
The pen buff with the top tier gun and calibrated wouldnt be much too (232 to 236/238 pen isnt bad)

[stone drum]

We really, really don't need a kranvagn with 2.5s intraclip.

[twin egret]

Press the two-key

[humble depot]

This better be a troll.

[thorny timber]

It's either autoloaders get nerfed or Autoreloaders get buffed,and single shots have to experience the chaos...

[stuck acorn]

and that's for the better. We don't need a tank impenetrable in hulldown in the meta yet again.

Give it some actual weakspots and then buff it or whatever

[glad cove]

It's hull down power is its only saving grace and because wg gave it the reserve shell mechanic basically its dpm gets worse further into the clip,
And without shell reload boost which it isn't capable of having it can't ever be a good as t57 is

[cursive ferry]

obj 260 is ur answer

[glad cove]

Why not Kranvagn Is out dated in its capabilities to deal dmg quickly in a short burst and simply can't compete with tanks like t57 heavy, and kran loses dpm the more it uses the clip so its not going to be that influential with a 2.5 sec interclip

[stuck acorn]

kran doesn't have reserve shell, wdym

It is just as cancerous as it used to

Not to mention that T57 is blantly overpowered, kran doesn't need to be as strong as T57, but the other way around

[ancient rampart]

It needs a pen buff
Or a armor buff
Or an engine buff

[humble depot]

The Kran does not have the reserve shell mechanic. This sort of ignorance is exactly why such a balance change as you proposed is dumb.

[stone drum]

Because Kranvagn unlike T57 can sit on a ridge impervious to all damage.

@stuck acorn I personally don't see a way to balance T57 without completely butchering the tank.

WG should honestly just revert it to its pre-9.1 state if anything.

[real bison]

making the armour less troll would be a nice change

[pale oyster]

Is 50B going to get another buff anytime soon? Either accuracy or intraclip, maybe add recticle/clip reload consumable.

[stuck acorn]

just nerf the pen from 340 to like 320 and make accuaracy worse. That's all that is needed to make it somewhat balanced

@pale oyster it is more than good enough. Just leave it as it is

@stone drum it wouldn't butcher the tank, you use calibrated on it anyway, so 342 pen will still be more than enough and removing it's laser accuracy will make it more balanced. Nobody said that they ned to make it as bad as in 50b, just make it worse.

And bad players in T57 are free damage most of the time anyway so it's not a problem

[prisma jetty]

It was buffed in 10.0

[stone drum]

....

That would butcher the tank, or it would atleast hurt good players more than bad players.
Just remove the stupid intraclip consumable.

[tacit folio]

bro watch my vid in the uploads and say if magnate is balanced

[glad cove]

No good sir the Kran doesn't have the reserve shell mechanic out right but upon inspection the kran loses dpm as it eats into the clip very SIMILAR to a reserve shell mechanic so this sort of ignorance is not ignorance. Which also why I said BASICALLY so do yourself a favor and read the complete message for what it is before you start running your mouth

[twilit crystal]

In the kran its still almost always worth firign the 3rd shell if you have an open shot, Only time you wouldn't is when you are in a brawl against another tank in a 1v1,or you would take damage while firing the 3rd shell mino is way more careful about deciding to fire that 3rd shell

[long light]

The difference between the mino's reserve shell and the 3rd shell of kranvagn is abysmall too, its like reloading a 183 shell while in a kran its similar to a is7 that runs calibrated shells

[grand jackal]

just get Obj. 260

[glad cove]

NO NO NO do not get obj 260 it's very very bad just get t95e6 or wz 113 or obj 777 v2

[humble depot]

That’s how all autoreloaders work you overgrown fern.

[quick lichen]

Obj 777*

[stuck acorn]

that's literally how all autoreloaders work you dumbass. A tank with reserve shell mechanic will usually have reload on first shell in the clip at least 2/3 times longer than the other ones

[glad cove]

You guys realize you said ALL

You CLEARLY haven't play progetto 65 or Emil 2
These tanks gain dpm when they eat into the clip

☝️🤓tHiS soRt of IgnOrANce is not needed in blitz

[rotund skiff]

don't forget the progetto 46 and M4/FL10, they have the best dpm when you eat all of the way into the clip

[glad cove]

and standard b

[prisma jetty]

All autoreloaders in blitz work the same way, firing only the first shell is best until you get the opportunity to safely empty the clip

[distant river]

^ this is not true

For example you have the P44, which has a 6.65 reload for its first shell (to be loaded), and 3+3.1=6.1 for the last shell, so firing the last shell gives better dpm
The prog has 6.21 reload for its first shell, and 3+4.88=7.88 for its last, so firing the first shell gives better dpm

[nimble zodiac]

Yeah it's extremely noticeable on M4/FL10, you think 4.58s is good enough for an autoreloader until you dump and it's down to 4.18s despite you having played your cards

[harsh pebble]

increase kranvagn top speed and remove super speed boost consumable. its eating away at my credits

[honest knot]

It is the point.
Being expensive to run pushes you to pay for premium account

[native sage]

Pen buff for the WZ Blaze? It's honestly pretty low for a TD

[sharp forge]

Its balance with the mobility speed and has turret that can turn

[ebon lynx]

First thing I would do to the T57 is remove that shell reload boost, it never needed it, it won't miss it.

[ornate warren]

it will feel extra sluggish when you just buff the top speed on the vehicle, just like what happened to the E5

@ebon lynx agreed, that consumable generally is one of the main reasons why this meta is so toxic

[valid karma]

Devs may I ask when we are getting the Temple map back

[real bison]

wait no, i was incorrect

[long light]

Sheesh now thats a kv2 and smasher fan but i dont think this is a channel for that, and you shouldve censored the name if you were going to call him "the problem with blitz"

[pale oyster]

It's less than good enough. T57 is like better in every way except speed. The gun accuracy is like too horrible to do anything semi-long range and the intra-clip is long enough where the enemy can get two shots into you.

[thorny timber]

Pretty sure not every tank should just reject s consumables,sure some are very helpful in battle but it's situational,and then there is things like reactive in e5

Kran is just as alright as it is for now,if it really needs extra DPM then it'll have to give up something as a compensation for it

[thorny timber]

The only reason why kran isn't dangerously broken is because it's limited by it's intraclip in the first place,the first shell you reload in 8.32 seconds,that's a small fraction faster than the 215b with imo has a good 120mm + DPM,the thing is someone is probably comparing an autoloader to an Autoreloader although both have different mechanisms and autoloaders still need a rebalance update

[burnt venture]

WG's balancing motto:

"We have enhanced both the strengths and weaknesses of a tank to make the game more diverse and open to a larger variety of tactics"

Can this be the description for this channel

[woven lantern]

Buff is4 speed but slighly reduce dpm(he's rlly too slow)

[stone drum]

Accuracy is a major feature of the T57, it's supposed to be a relatively slow (but mobile), poorly armoured heavy, but with the trade of an incredibly powerful, reliable, and accuracy gun. Given the T57 is a heavily gun focused tank I do not support nerfing the gun, and as such I believe other aspects of the tank should be balanced around the gun. The T57 used to be in a really good state and WG kinda screwed that up.

Here is what I would like to see done to the T57:
• nerf the turret armour
• remove intraclip consumable
• -.02 dispersion @ 100m
• change handling factors to .18/.18/.7
• decrease reverse speed to 10kph
• increase turret traverse by 13°
• decrease hp by 50

[ancient rampart]

T57 is fine how it is imo

[burnt venture]

nice joke

[prisma jetty]

T57 is a fine tank for rofl stomping anyone in your way!

[stuck acorn]

yeah and you thought i'm slaugthering the tank... 10 kph reverse speed 💀

T57 may be one of those very rare heavy tanks where reverse speed nerf isn't needed. 12 kph is bad enough already. Just nerf the penetration instead. Not even a single T10 heavy should have this much pen. 330 should be absolute maximum, but preferably it should be even lower

you can also leave turret armor as it is, it may be annoying, but when considering other huge nerfs you proposed, it should be balanced without it too

[humble depot]

Sir, this isn’t #blitz-memes.

[stone drum]

Increased vulnerability for a better gun.

Why should 330 be the maximum... lol...
Also most heavies dont need à reverse speed nerf. Atleast imo.

(@unique scaffold your cat, or no?)

[unique scaffold]

Just nerf the turret armour

[nimble zodiac]

The main problem with heavies having crazy HEAT pen is that it's intended to counter heavies

Literally WG balancing heavies to play against heavies, leaving mediums in the dust

[stuck acorn]

Why 330 should be maximum? For autoloaders especially? Becuase of calibrated shells obviously. If you remove calibrated, you can leave heavies with their pen as they are, but it's not healthy for the game to have heavies running around with 370 HEAT or 360 APCR pen. But i doubt WG will ever remove this game breaking equipment so i guess we need to lower down the pen of most heavy tanks. 340 is already more than enough to pen anything at t10.

And yes, most heavies need reverse speed nerfs, but not all. Nerfing a single stat for all tanks of the same class across the board is not a good idea. t57 is rare example of heavy tank with atrocious reverse speed. It can be left as it is

@stone drum basically any heavy with 18 or more kph in reverse except for 260 should have it's reverse speed nerfed, at least imo

[stone drum]

Well actually I agree, Calibrated shells should be taken to a dark back alley and have the snot beaten out of it. My opposition to Autoloaders especially getting à overall pen nerf is due to the fact I générally prefer vents over Calibrated. just à long standing habit I can't seem to break.

Also could you provide some examples of heavies that need reverse speed nerfs?
just don't mention the wrong tanks lol

[nimble zodiac]

Clearly Pz. II J needs it

[stone drum]

Personally I feel like a certain french group of mobile heavies should not have their reverse speed nerfed, as It is an integral part of their character.

[stuck acorn]

amx 50b can be taken as an exception as well, but AMX m4 54 needs this nerf as much as any other heavy

[stone drum]

What would you nerf it too?
(And would you give it anything else?)

[pale oyster]

T57 is fine being better in every single way than a 50B

[drowsy plaza]

T57 turrets bounce way too much - the ridiculously tiny oscillating piece seems to have a shell magnet that draws every single shot into the microscopic 417mm sliver is pretty blinking irritating.

[stone drum]

I don't recall ever hitting that to be honest.
turret is still troll tho.

[stuck acorn]

It surely is, but i'm willing to accept this minor inconvenience in order for the tank to keep it's identity.

Surely it needs a nerf, but i have a feeling that many small nerfs to all key stats of a tank might just make it bland. I'd rather remove the super consumable, drasticaly reduce DPM and lower down the HEAT pen. It should be more than enough to balance it out

If you want to nerf armor, i'd rather go for lower plate

[honest knot]

It is irritating x)
If the opponent wiggles the turret, you just roll the dice to know if it pens or not

[burnt venture]

If you looked at it with medium pen, the entire front of the tank is like a 50/50. Even if you aim for the clearly penetrable parts, any deviation of the shell will cause bounces to happen. There is no such thing as a reliable weakspot on the front of the tank at all. Also, the fact that the middle of the lower plate is stronger than the rest of the hull is complete garbage.

It's hands down just a ridiculous tank. 1200 burst damage in 5 seconds, clip reload booster, and 3k DPM on a decently mobile platform with ridiculously good, stop-and-shoot gun handling.

Pre-9.1 T57 was more well balanced than what it is now. I'd rather have the invincible hull and the fast turret traverse than this garbage.

[fossil marten]

Got the Astron Rex on one of my accounts a while back. Hadn’t played it, saw some reviews on YT, mostly bad, took it for a spin this morning. What a steaming turd of a tank. No dpm, poor penetration, no armour and really bad (for a medium) mobility. The only thing going for it is the alpha, but even that is a false hope most of the time cos it needs to use premium ammo against any heavy or decently armoured medium (tier 9 and some tier 8s). This tank really needs an overhaul WG. Needs a mobility and penetration buff.

[main tulip]

Astron Rex is actually quite good imo. Don't overlook the fact that it has 0.1 dispersion on the move (good for even a tier 10 medium), while having high alpha. The armor is also not bad considering how it looks like a light tank.

[fossil marten]

I don’t want to ‘blindly Yolo’ but I do want it to be competitive, and it’s not. Not by quite some considerable margin. That’s why I’ve asked for a mobility buff, not top speed, but power to weight, it’s currently one of if not the lowest power to weight mediums in its tier. And it needs a penetration buff. If you’re going to have a 3.5 second intra clip plus a near 20 second magazine reload it needs to be able to pen reasonably reliably and 185mm doesn’t do that. If you have to switch to premium to get the shell in then the dpm drops to abysmally low levels.

[nimble zodiac]

Armored Bourrasque is armored

[unique scaffold]

is it only me that thinking Rhm-B-WT needs a speed buff?

[burnt venture]

The problem with tier 8 now though is that the most popular tanks at that tier completely screw with people's perceptions of what is actually "strong" vs. what is actually "weak" when it comes to tier for tier comparisons. There are so many tanks at tier 8 now (and over half of them are premiums) that people's idea of what makes a tier 8 tank good or bad are really being misconstrued.

The forefront of the problem is that tier 8 has a lot of tanks which are undeniably overcooked. Examples: Tiger II, 54E2, Chimera, Progetto 46, 130PM/Skorpion, 53TP, Emil I, T77, 252U, etc. And those also happen to be the most played tanks, now that most of the strong premiums have been sold repeatedly many times and a lot of players have them (and play them lots, because they're hilariously strong). So it kind of creates this façade that tier 8 just becomes represented by these tanks, some of which can easily be considered tier 8.5 or even almost tier 9s.

This gets to everybody, including youtubers, and is then further proliferated through the community. To the point where even when pretty strong premiums release, everybody goes "well it's not better than X tier 8 meta tank already in the game" and ignores it, like the type 57 release. If you told someone 5 years ago that there would be a 2k HP heavy with 430 alpha and IS-tank mobility at tier 8 that has 8 deg gun dep and a button it can click for instantly better gun handling, they would instantly say it's bonkers. But because 252U exists, it's a "waste of money".

@fossil marten Astron isn't weak, definitely not when you compare to any average tier 8 medium. But that doesn't mean that it's somehow going to feel any type of competitive when everybody and their grandma is playing a 53TP, Emil I, Tiger II, 54E2, etc. The problem ain't the Astron, it's just a side effect of having select tanks be way stronger than others

Tier 8 is suffering when you aren't playing those meta tanks. That's reality

[unique scaffold]

facts.

[burnt venture]

If you want some numbers:

Chimera and Progetto top the charts for tier 8 mediums by quite a fair margin. So are powerful mediums like Borrasque and Pantera and Cent 5 and Defender Mk. 1. So when you play your Astron Rex, it feels like trash because those tanks are what you're going to get matched against the most often.

Even though Astron is pretty much on par with something like Indien Pz. or Pershing or T-44, it doesn't matter when you're going to get rekt by Chimeras and Progettos (which then funnily enough creates incentive to play those two tanks even more kekw).

And then there's sunk cost fallacy here: you paid for the Astron Rex, while those tech tree tanks it is equivalent to are free, yet you're also getting beat by premium tanks other people mostly paid for. So of course you're more likely to notice or complain that a premium is weak, when in fact absolute tragedies like WZ-132 and STA-1 need the buffs more

[fossil marten]

I’d suggest they need buffs too, rather than instead of.

[twin egret]

Real. It also saved me the game once tho so idk

[jade cargo]

_pasteque_#0 was muted.

v2_hydra#0 has been warned.

[stone drum]

I wouldn't call Scorpion or obj252u overcooked tbh.

[novel relic]

I hope this stays, I love shooting HE at the tier 7-9 you bottom hull and just about always penning the HE. Glory at its finest.

[thorny timber]

one thing you probably failed to read is that these are derp guns,which come in for the high he pen and high alpha in trade of dog water aim/dispersion and almost half a clip long reload if you miss

[novel relic]

Its called aim, plus su 152, isu 152, obj, or really any tank with 70m of HE pen, this includes alot of derp heavies can easily hit that. Plus is some 1 can't hit that as it is, well they a 45%er as I do it literally all the time. Its so easy.

[thorny timber]

You're not gonna hit it any time soon Unless you are at point blank,you'll start losing penetration around the mid range border,not to mention that you'll have to wait for almost 3-4 seconds to actually guarantee a shot,and there are no room for errors. unless you run refined gun and the other aim reducing equipments but it isn't as easy as you think it is,not many 152mm calibers exist at tier 6-7 whereas the yoh has to be careful in tier 8 matches

Su 152 will be try Harding when you realise you have tracks and speed,where as the max gun isu 152 is best to not engage with unless it's distracted

[patent pike]

Black prince broken

[twin egret]

Remove the super consumables on the FV215b. Go and actually improve the guns in other aspects, make it what it was supposed to be

[humble depot]

Incorrect. Panzer 58 supremacy.

[unique scaffold]

ı can agree with that.

[drowsy notch]

What application is this

[ancient rampart]

Armor inspector

[junior drift]

Please up type 68, fr, in full stock its dpm is damn 1500, for your wonder, BRITISH AT III VALTENTINE HAS 1400, it also got bad armour in hull most of times, and please make top gun somewhat more alpha because 400 isn't real, you barely get 400 mostly 350

[ancient rampart]

It’s stock
You’re not going to preform well in a stock tank
Learn to hide your lower plate

[ornate warren]

Actually agreed, other stats can be improved easier by doing that, but it should be in a way that it wont actually lose its entire set of advantages that allow player to think of multiple situations imo

[amber cape]

Please increase the speed of foch tier 9 and give it the option to have a single shot barrel.

[rotund wasp]

guys, should i get the vickers light 105 or the fv4202

[stone drum]

Speed?
Like traverse or what?

[amber cape]

Everything, it feels like the enemy is deciding how I play instead of me

[ornate warren]

Speaking of both foch, they both should get their old aggresive gameplay back imo

[main tulip]

Didn't you totally disagree when I said the same exact thing

[ornate warren]

Opinions can change y know, theres no point of defending a specific point just to win the argument, that would be dumb imo

[winged barn]

Congratulations, you discovered why turretless tanks are garbage.

[ancient rampart]

When some of the best TDs are turretless

[main tulip]

When the best TDs still aren't meta in the grand scheme of things

[storm salmon]

This "Concealment in Movement" info is not enough for the casual players. You need to add a video to the game for the casual players and teach them that the additional concealment allows Light Tanks to be on the move and spot enemy tanks without being seen.

The point is that many Bad light tank players camp, never move from their camping spot, and not looking for enemy snipers or the rest of the enemy team. The end result is the team being shot up from the unknown while the light tank just sits unaware of the damage being done to the rest of the team.

Example. I started a training room for Mines. AMX 13 90 vs KV-4. The AMX was 150m away (not behind cover) from the KV-4 and the KV could not see the tank until the AMX shot at the KV. Why 150m? Cuz the high concealment lowers the viewing range of the KV from 230m to 140m of the AMX. This is even on the move.

Additionally the AMX was repositioned 250m away from the KV. The AMX could still shoot the KV and not be seen.

This is what over 90% of the player base don't understand about Light Tanks.

It's annoying when the one tank with the best viewing range is hiding at the back of the map behind other players in heavy tanks.

Note: I would also like to include spotting damage. These light tanks that spot may not have high damage, but also need to learn that they Earn HP damage points by spotting and can even get a Mastery from it.

[next nova]

Why is the T25/2 turret inpenetrable at the top, what the hell is WG doing

[real bison]

if you mean this, its because its not part of the hitbox, and is spaced armour

[storm salmon]

cuz it's spaced armor... spaced armor doesn't count as part of the tanks body/hitbox

[unique scaffold]

Nerf Škoda T-56 gun

[stone drum]

Lol, why?
regardless they don't nerf prems.

[verbal igloo]

Nerf the spd and give my 62a its accuracy back. I want my favorite Tank back

[unique scaffold]

Aiming time and reload time

[stone drum]

It already has horrible aiming time and reload, neither need to be nerfed.

[ancient rampart]

Yeah it definitely doesn’t need a nerf
It has 14.3 second reload
And terrible aim time

[compact nymph]

I don’t see why the Skoda T56 would direly need a nerf. It does have a punchy gun but as said above that is already balanced by the shotgun accuracy and very low dpm that makes it rather team dependent, especially considering its armor and speed aren’t stellar. If anything it is fairly balanced, don’t see why you’d insist on nerfing that tank before many cracked T8s, unless we just have the common ‘’This vehicle had a semi-competent player and utterly brained on me, must nerf!!!!!’’ situation

[nimble zodiac]

Take away the 640 HE and it’s fine

[stuck acorn]

I mean, i agree stock tanks should be bad, but still they should be somewhat usable. As long as they are on the level of a tank that is 1 tier lower it's fine. A problem is where a stock tank is worse than that. This is something WG should really do something about. there are tanks that when stock are so horrible that they wouldn't even have that much of an upper hand while fighting best tanks from 2 tiers lower. This is in my personal opinion a bit too much. I don't know how it is in case of Type 68 as i haven't played it stock, but there are few tanks out there that should have some stock modules buffed/removed.

Perfect examples of it are:

• ST-1 (it is already bad enough with IS-3 gun and stock turret)
• Wz-132 (the first gun on it is just atrocious, 1700 dpm with other gun stats being no better are just a joke)
• Wz-120 (it's not really about the tank itself being bad, but about incredible amount of exp you need to max it out and some modules being nearly no different from previous ones)

There are probably some more examples of that, but i just can;t think of any more for now

[grand jackal]

I'd say Leo PT A with its 77.5k XP for top gun, as well as 30k for 3 other modules each

[stone drum]

Yes take away a unique feature of the tank for absolutely no reason.

[winged barn]

I will take a fully upgraded Cromwell over a stock centurion 1 in a tier 8 match

[nimble zodiac]

More like a coping mechanism for spall liner. “We don’t want it to apply to Skoda T56”

[stone drum]

Just gave me an excellent idea.

[humble depot]

WZ-111-1G FT (Sweats nervously in corner)

[winged barn]

Oh no

[stone drum]

Lol. A stock centurion mk.1 with the 17 pounder (and obviously adjusted other stats) would make a really good tier 6.

totally not a gup tank

[main tulip]

A stock Conqueror with the 20pdr would make a really good tier 8. Oh wait

[winged barn]

Stats need to be adjusted? Barely
It's a tog that trades some stats for speed

[stone drum]

Hp & dpm.
Shave off 250hp, 400 dpm and it's à tier 6.

[frank bone]

Bruh, the skoda t56 gun is trash

[compact nymph]

I don’t support the existence of spall liner in this game so guns still having enough HE alpha to do more damage than with AP to neuter it is fine. HE on tanks like the Leo or STB is tragic, and the spall liner itself a coping mechanism because the average joe is unable to play paper tanks. Simply handing out a provision to neuter HE damage and thus partly negate those tanks’ main downside makes about as much sense as giving all heavies a passive and permanent super speed boost because they’re generally slower, or a provision that reduces the pen of premium rounds fired at a tank

[unique scaffold]

nerf a bad tank lol

[unique scaffold]

And add the stabilizator like the VZ-55 has

[nimble zodiac]

“Nerf the gun, and add the stabilizer to it” 💀

[ionic egret]

wot official members at its finest

[ornate warren]

This is literally the exact same way how E5 lost its enjoyability

[queen geyser]

Next thing they gonna do is add spall liner to AMX 50B

[drowsy plaza]

Well honestly my opinion of all the special equipment, consumables and provisions is they should be an all or nothing sort of thing. Either all tanks can use/equip them, or none.

[hot gyro]

Suggestion : can the reticle indicate the % of aim while aiming ? When full aimed indicate 100% (or 0% for 0 dispersion). Or some sort of coloring ?

[long light]

Idk what this have to do with tanks balance but its actually a very good suggestion, i fully agree on this

[thorny timber]

yeah,the last thing i need is rectile calibration on kv2 so lights can be bullied more

[hot gyro]

I was looking for the most appropriate channel in the "chat with devs" section

[twilit crystal]

Tbh would be interesting, I would kind of like it as well because many people would run 2 super consumables or 1 adr and 1 super which means only 1 repair kit, which makes perma tracking more possible. Also most people would probably drop protection kit as well .

[stone drum]

heavies reversing at 26kph
STRV K with 60kph top speed
réticule calibration deathstar & KV-2
super speed boost E50m

[thorny timber]

Some tanks just don't deserve some specific consumables,makes it too influential for what it's base price is

[prisma jetty]

It’s not bad though, just nerfing the gun is not the right thing to do

[burnt venture]

Perma tracking in this game just isn't as prevalent either way though, even with only one rep kit and no prot kit. Not enough tanks (especially at higher tier) have that magical 5 second reload to really matter, especially if you consider toolbox and crew skills.

Unless you're an autoloader or pushing adrenaline on a Russian med, permatracking almost never happens at tier X just because the base track rep time is so low and so many people still run double repair or even track enhancement equipment

Also in order for permatracking to really be worth it, the enemy has to make a mistake where they cannot shoot you back. That also doesn't happen very often. And circling a heavy while permatracking them isn't really too feasible because of just how low the window of opportunity is for you to shoot again while the track is down.

[stone drum]

Superpershing armour buff???
From the look of this screenshot it will be getting the double layered frontal spaced armour.

@grand jackal currently it only has one screen versus two on pc.

[grand jackal]

it has it already in its design

[stuck acorn]

from what i know super pershing will get an armor buff in 10.1 indeed

[verbal igloo]

If super pershing doesnt get a turret buff literally nothing will change. You Just Pen the cheeks or the turret roof. Who cares about the hull

[visual sorrel]

Buff E100 and give Emil line the strenght back

[stone drum]

Why on gods earth would E-100 possibly need another buff?

[grand jackal]

now that it's kinda confirmed that polish meds will be yet another line branching off Strv m/42, it means it's a total of 150k XP to grind in this generic tier 5 med to research all succeeding tanks. I doubt they'd add another tier 5 to remove some stress of Strv, but I was thinking about what if it got alternative derp gun, similar to one on Scavenger. Obviously there are collector tier 5 meds with howitzers, like Gargoyle, High Score and aforementioned Scavenger, so even though Strv is a techtree tank, why not. Ikv 103 is a tier 5 TD in PC and its stock gun is almost a perfect candidate for that, with around 100/110/53 pen and slightly undergunned alpha dmg when compared to typical 105 at 320/300/370 (could be 250/210/330 in WoTB). Of course this gun wouldn't be anything OP, but for sure it would bring some interesting aspect into an otherwise boring low tier medium which currently forces players to grind such ridiculous amounts of XP

[drowsy plaza]

Or you could just use FreeExp if you don’t want to play tier 5…

[grand jackal]

if freeXPing the way is the solution and the tank itself is not unplayable (but boring), it's still not right
and of course, unless it's some more advanced players who never touched european tanks, I doubt any new player would have that much XP to throw, even if that player didn't want to research all vehicles at once
obviously there are many problems that can just be battered through using game resources, but it doesn't mean that those problems should stay there forever

[drowsy plaza]

New players should be playing a bunch of tier 5 and 6 as needed. Honestly the games been out for 9 years, those of us who’ve played for 9 years don’t even need to sweat as we can free exp lines to X to avoid the hassles of those tiers. Color me less interested in the low tier problems of lower battle count players. None of this is a balance issue however.

[drowsy plaza]

Apparently because some players don’t understand angling or armor profiles?

[drowsy plaza]

I’d settle for a gun handling buff - the rear is workable but the Russian level gun bloom makes it downright painful.

[grand jackal]

honestly, thinking that new players should stay on low tiers for as long as they require, is pretty non-realistic, because it all depends on player itself and how fast (or if) they learn the game
also, logical thing is that new players try to reach higher tiers as fast as they can instead of thinking that they should first learn the game to adapt, it's just how it is
and honestly, game itself allows those players to get to high tiers really fast, with all gamemodes, events and specials which give extraordinate amounts of XP when utilized correctly, e.g. last year's eve, there was that multiple XP bonus thingy depending on how many tanks of a tier you own, combined with Big Boss mode. During that single day I managed to get around 800k combat XP by utilizing everything I had. While of course I have more knowledge and resources than new player, they're still able to skip tanks really fast if they have minimal clue about this game
that's why I think that for majority of new players, long low tier grinds do more harm to their mindset than good to their skill
but to change that, entire game's XP economy would need to be looked into to balance out grind time, which of course won't happen

[stone drum]

That's an insult to russian guns.

[winged barn]

Only a gun handling buff? That's not gonna bring it from a tier 7 to a tier 8

[ancient rampart]

The E100 doesn’t need any buffs

[drowsy plaza]

I have 351 games in it, I don’t want my SU Wn8 to erode like my K-91 results did when it was buffed (albeit it years ago). The SP isn’t nearly as bad as people say it’s is outside the dreadful gun.

[drowsy plaza]

You lost me, either people have free exp (or grind in the other modes) or they grind in normal game play. Free Exp accumulation is great in higher tiers, and when you win more. Most of of the player base doesn’t seem to know if they playing tier X or tier V. Yes players with great aptitude for the game or player who will spend some time learning game mechanics will progress quickly through those tiers and are better off refining game play in tier 9/10, but frankly a good 80%+ of the player base plays like a cement block and won’t pick up anything anyway.

[stone drum]

T42 honestly could use something to make it atleast an interesting vehicle.

Imo they should give it like 275-295 heat pen, to atleast make it entertaining. The vehicle just doesn't really have much going for it currently.

[twilit crystal]

Yeah fix the gun handling and give it 150 to 200 more hp, its already close enough to a type 71 tbh

[drowsy plaza]

T42 is honestly a pointless vehicle at this point. I didn’t enjoy it in test, they should have made it a Light, and sacrificed armor for mobility. The T26E3 Eagle 7 is a better medium by far.

[stone drum]

Sad part is T26e3 eagle 7 isn't even a spectacular vehicle itself, being almost completely outclassed by the Tiger 1.

T42 is such a cool looking tank, with a beautiful model, it really deserves more.

[drowsy plaza]

Eagle 7 is a great tier 7 Med. The issue is that tier 7 heavies are broken beyond belief.

[winged barn]

Now hold on, the SP isn't bad outside of its dreadful gun?

The armor is bordering useless. It's at least sometimes workable against low pen tanks though, so let's see what the tank has to make up for it.

The mobility is good for a heavy, but it doesn't have any heavy tank upsides to have this stat only be at "good for a slow tank"

Gun? Garbage in every stat outside of gun depression.

Credits get earned

So the only things that it has are... gun depression and credit earnings
Everything else is meh at best, but mostly complete trash.

It's 100% as bad as people say.

Sp gets no mercy in my evaluation of it.

[drowsy plaza]

Honestly if it had a useful gun to snap shoot then it wouldn’t be as concerned about the armor being troll at best. The pen is great on the AP and the APCR isn’t a slouch either if you end up needing to pen heavies frontally. Sure I wouldn’t be resistant to an armor fix too, but the bloom on rotation and movement is to me more critical.

[stone drum]

It's alright, i find the gun somewhat lacklustre. It could have used abit more dpm, penetration, alpha, or accuracy in my opinion.

[cursive ferry]

the ability to earn twice as much free xp as other tanks it what makes the eagle worth to play for me

[winged barn]

or and
See t26e5

[twilit crystal]

super pershing pen is fine, its 212 and 260 . Alpha should be 240 , give it .12/.12.12 gun handling and then see from there

[stone drum]

*205/258

[harsh ravine]

Even if they buff the SP’s hull armor, unless wg address it’s turret and/or gun handling issues, it’s still gonna be obsolete compared to other tanks such as the T26E5

[sharp forge]

Skoda T56 need combat stabilization mechanic

[ebon lynx]

It's not really confirmed,
When they announced the 60TP line, the video has shown it branching off Škoda T25, but then, they announced the t6 heavy later on.

For SP, I would give some serious buffs to gun handling, and a little bit to base dispersion, and some dpm buff.
Mobility, I think the top speed is acceptable, but I would give it some more horsepower, maybe increase top speed to 42/45.
(I still didn't forget WG wanting to nerf its top speed.)
And armor, I would give it the second later in the front, and maybe, maybe, a little buff to cheeks and turret roof.
I think the hull and turret sides/rear are acceptable as they are.

[winged barn]

I can't wait for weegee to add stupidsumables to the SP because they don't feel like fixing its stats

[stone drum]

Well combat stabilization would be nice on the Skoda, but admittedly largely useless.

[prisma jetty]

Combat stabilization would make the Skoda disgustingly strong

[stone drum]

I severely doubt that.

@prisma jetty it already has very, very good bloom for its caliber. Also unlike the VZ, Skoda has very good acceleration and top speed which would certainly hurt the mechanic.

Skoda effectively has stats that do the same thing as the mechanic.

[prisma jetty]

Accuracy is one of the main things holding it back, specifically the bloom. Eliminate that and it will definitely become broken

[burnt venture]

Bro people who are suggesting Super Persh get armor buffs somehow are balancing the game exactly like WG would. An armor buff would just pull it further away from being counterable by tier 7s. TBH, any buffs to DPM or mobility or anything of the sort would also do the exact same thing.

The gun just needs better handling. That's about the end of it. It's a medium with armor, there's no need to make it into a psuedo heavy tank. The entire point of the tank having turret weakspots is due to it having really good hull armor as well as track traverse.

Gun handling should be the number 1 way to buff tanks, and should be the last consideration when nerfing tanks. It doesn't increase tank effectiveness by increasing firepower hard stats (like DPM), it doesn't make the tank harder to play against unlike mobility and armor buffs, while universally makes any tank feel instantly more reliable and enjoyable to play.

The current balance solution is literally just make other stats too good, then slap a .4 accuracy blunderbuss on it and call it balanced. That's fun for literally nobody. It makes meta tanks which are frustrating or even impossible to play against, while making the tank feel awful to play when you miss point blank shots.

Accuracy should not be a privilege that only sniper tanks can have.

[stone drum]

Superpershing's armour is laughably weak, considering it's potato mobility it's just outright ridiculous.
it needs more than just a handling buff to be viable again.

[burnt venture]

It has the pen and the DPM on the gun, and the mobility + armor is not all that horrible considering how fast the traverse speed is, and the turret armor is fine as is.

SP armor is meant really to bully lower tier tanks and it does that already. It has exploitable weakspots for everybody facing it and that's how an armored tank should be.

In order for a tank designed like SP to be "viable" it would need to be on the same level as faster tier 8 heavy tanks. You're either going to make it terrible for lower tiers and other meds to fight against, or you can give SP something to make it more playable without being better than everything else.

Tanks with armor and mobility like this are very sensitive to armor and mobility buffs simply because one change can make it too good or make little to no difference.

[nocturne mauve]

They just buff tanks too much and make the tier underneath it completely useless

[unique scaffold]

Nerf Autoreloaders

[slow lagoon]

Bring the old gun sounds back

[stone drum]

I think it's reasonable to make the upperplates thickness consistent.

The gun mantle should also not be a weakspot imo. The things that I feel should be Buffed are it's "strong spots" lower tiers wouldn't be able to easily pen them Regardless so it doesn't actually effect them.

[quick lichen]

Wrong channel

[slow lagoon]

Jeez my bad

[stone drum]

This is an absolute joke, especially for an armoured medium that gives up virtually everything for good frontal armour.
It doesn't even have sides to angle to make its Armour better.

[nimble zodiac]

The SuperPershing when a T34 shoots at it

[stone drum]

that was an indien panzer, but ok.

@nimble zodiac
Tier 5 tds:

[royal maple]

I think that the T-44-100 needs a small performance upgrade, namely, the vertical aiming angles should be -7, and the armor in the turret should be slightly increased.

[nimble zodiac]

Ew, CS AP

[winged barn]

You say this like the t26e5 doesn't exist. It's just the Spersh but better in every single stat.

The spersh is strong for a tier 7, pretty much right in line with the t29

Just giving the Spersh accuracy will not make up for the armor, reload, alpha, and pen that the t26e5 has over it.

And then there are all the other actually decent heaviums that just laugh at the SP and it failure to do anything competently

[stone drum]

Ackshually the superpershing has a better hull turning dispersion factor.

[orchid grove]

Super Pershing actually is similar to regular Pershing in that it has "secret" armor behind the mantlet. For some reason, armor inspector/blitz hangar show both of them as having 0mm of primary armor behind the mantlet when in reality, it's actually like ~100mm now. There is a 0mm hole behind the gun though.

SP used to have 0mm behind the mantlet, and I used to love cheesing through the mantlet, but WG changed it, and you can't do that any more

[lunar lantern]

How could you fight and win with a B1 vs BDR ? Cheated MM setting me in low tier at 90% with it 😡

[orchid grove]

You're always low tier because there's way more people playing tier 5 than tier 3

[knotty cobalt]

This game is so broken it makes me wanna cry. Why are some tanks so much unballanced. Why does meds penetrate me so easily when i drive a heavy tank and i cannot penetrate them?????!! Doesnt make ANY SENCE! For example the Tiger I and Tiger II are such a bot tanks that u can stay at one place and none VII tank will be able to penetrate you. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 A big circus

[nimble zodiac]

You used Tiger I and Tiger II as an exmaple of heavy tanks being out-armored by mediums...?

[ornate warren]

Umm…

[knotty cobalt]

No, that wan an another example. Tiger I and II are overarmored. But a T26E3 Eagle's turret is so random bouncing that most od VIII heavies can penetrate it only with a huge luck. Like if you have driven most of the tanks you'll notice really fast that when you drive for example 53TP you have paper armor, but when you drive Chimera it has OP gun, OP penetration, OP armor (for a medium tank) and quite normal speed. Than talk to me about how this game is "well ballanced". 🥹

[nimble zodiac]

I'm not saying the game is well balanced at all. It's quite hectic, but if you're actually struggling in a maxed 53TP in terms of bouncing shells, then that's definitely not the tank that's the problem 😅

[river valley]

Tigers are fine as they are imo, tiger 2 has quite weak turret so gold should be able to get through. Also if the turret isnt directly facing you you can easily pen the side.

[gloomy anchor]

And even if you don't use prammo you can break its tracks, and circle around him and shoot his turret (Works better in a light / medium tank)

[ornate warren]

Mostly depends on the situation tbh but yup

[knotty cobalt]

Bro I've been playing this game for more than 7 years and i know what i should/shouldn't penetrate. I just used 53TP as and example because i shot 4 times to a M4A1 Rev. and 3 of them baunced because ut had a half of a milimeter of red zone on it and the rng just decided that the shells must go exactly to that spot. 🥲 To reply on Lulu's comment circling around tanks is more of a light only job, because some dudes in WG decided to buff heavies rotation and you can track how you want but half of the shots wont give demage even when using AP and APCR, because why would it right? You have to have the bad luck and 45% bots must take candies and super luck from WG. 🥲 To be fair it used to be worse at some point, X tier is almost well ballanced, but VIII tanks are complete mess.

[nimble zodiac]

7 years and you manage to fail 75% of your hitting shots on a Rev?
I suppose it's just bad luck, not a balance issue.

[knotty cobalt]

Yes it was a bad luck and i got triggered to open this theme here. But the ballance issue on tier 8 and tier 2-5 is a fact not a stuff i would imagine in my head.

[gloomy anchor]

During all my grinding of STB-1, I experienced it a lot
That's not always easy to do, but when you do it correctly the other player can't do anything
And I do this a lot when I use Strv74 against Tiger I. (After killing all meds on their side)

And that's very unlucky to bounce 75% of your shots on a M4A1 Rev.
(Just a little thought for the Mino I 1v1'd yesterday with my STB-1, who didn't do a single damage to me, even when aiming at my hull => I blocked more than 2.5k damages in that game 💀)

[amber cape]

Please buff the t10 foch.it is very bad and has no Armor , shoots slow and doesn't even deal much damage

[dire arrow]

@royal maple yes but t54 model1 and others like this needs to upgrade such as is6 is5 isu 130 isu 122c

[ornate warren]

its not bad, its decent. it has enough armor to counter attacks in specific positions, shoots 2 of its shell faster than its old one.

The main problem with the foch 155 is the change happened to it. it literally became another boring clipper with literally one playstyle. The only way for the tank to be at least somewhat fun in a level is its current one shot gun, which was literally the only good change happened to the foch imo

[quick lichen]

What does this have to do with this channel?

[stone drum]

What does it have to do with anything?

[quick lichen]

Fair additional point

[dim dock]

Kinda likes how the t 30 had 1600 hp making it crunchy but with 1800 it feels like a tier 8 heavy tank

[stone drum]

Minotauro could use abit of a rebalance in my opinion.

[timid blade]

Same thing with the T-62a.

Instead of the 100 mm gun, it should have the 115mm, so in turn more penetration and damage at the cost of reload and ammo capacity (40 rounds instead of 60)

[twin egret]

So basically a WZ-121?

[prisma jetty]

The issue with the 115mm is that it’s smoothbore, which WG avoids like the devil.

[jade cargo]

{ᶫᵒᵛᵉᵧₒᵤ}•..(•◡•)Anhel{ᶫᵒᵛᵉᵧₒᵤ}•#6068 was muted.

thedjag21#0 has been warned.

[timid blade]

Not really. It'll fire about 3-4 rounds a min (100% crew, no provisions or rammer) but the pen will be pretty good (about 300-ish with APCR and 400-ish with HEAT) [this is without calibrated shells]

Maybe armor should be better on the turret (+2 mm on the turret front surrounding the gun) but slightly reduced on the upper and lower hull glaci (100 mm instead of 106 mm)

I guess in a way, it'll be a slightly worse version than the WZ

Also really @prisma jetty ? Why are smoothbore guns WG's kryptonite? I generally didnt know

[queen geyser]

432 Heat ? bro ur on this sasa again, get some sleep

[ancient rampart]

432 HEAT would be better than everything else in the game lmao

[marsh belfry]

The average pen of t10 meds is 255-260 on standard and 300 on prammo which mostly heat shells without cali

300 apcr pen on standard and 432 heat without cali is beyond absurd (for comparison jgpe heat only have around 410-420 WITH cali)

You dont need sleep, you need to get into deep coma

[willow elbow]

Just add t64 already , 125mm smoothbore time

[drowsy plaza]

So ~1600 DPM. The sort of tank another medium could yolo and burn down…. WG avoids more modern guns due to penetration issues and dealing with modern ammunition. Same reason they avoid composite armor etc.

[twin egret]

Composite is a no but reactive armour is an exception?

[prisma jetty]

Hulldown high Alpha Heavy

[amber aurora]

i think its only fair if the KV 1 derp 122 gets a buff to 60 mm of HE pen, and reduce reload to 17 seconds
becuse there are only a few tanks at tier 5 that have less than 30 mm of armour
if the idea was to have a splash damage cannon, then the long reload defeats the purpouce

but if wg dosent want semi-effective derps at tier 5
just do a sherindan missile and make it a collectable, anyone with a kv 1 before the update will recive the KV 9
the kv 9 is literaly just a KV 1 using the folowing modules:
U 11 canon
KV 1 turret ChTZ Mod. 1942
Engine V2K
Suspension KV 1 Mod. 1941

"but why would we do that?" how about some financial insentive, make the tank afterwords only obtainable trough crates with comicaly low chances of dropping

also it would make the U 11 on the kv 2 usable

AND, the KV 9 (also known as object 229) is a real tank!
here are some sources to prove it: https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.php?armor_id=1174
and "KV-9 (Object 229) - A KV-1 with short 122 mm U-11 howitzer. One prototype was constructed and proved in 1941." can be found in the page on wikipedia for the KV tank
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kliment_Voroshilov_tank)

TLDR: make U 11 better, if dont want to. make new collectable tonk

[stone drum]

They should just make it a 380 alpha gun with super high velocity, but low-pen apcr rounds, decent dpm, amazing handling, but horrible aimed dispersion.

@drowsy plaza
They already crossed the penetration bridge to be honest, most cold war mediums have like 400mm of heat pen, versus maus only had like 170-190mm or so mm of penetration.

[timid blade]

I have more sources to add onto your suggestion!

https://onwar.com/wwii/tanks/ussr/su012kv1m41.html
https://onwar.com/wwii/tanks/ussr/su011kv1m39.html
https://www.tankarchives.ca/2017/07/howitzer-kv.html
https://www.tankarchives.ca/2016/01/t-220-prototype-in-combat.html
https://www.tankarchives.ca/2017/07/big-gun-for-small-turret.html
http://ww2data.blogspot.com/2015/07/soviet-explosive-ordnance-76mm.html
http://ww2data.blogspot.com/2015/07/soviet-explosive-ordnance-76mm_27.html
http://ww2data.blogspot.com/2015/08/soviet-explosive-ordnance-76mm.html
http://ww2data.blogspot.com/2015/10/soviet-explosive-ordnance-122mm.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/122_mm_howitzer_M1938_(M-30)
http://ww2data.blogspot.com/2015/09/soviet-explosive-ordnance-85mm-and.html
https://www.tankarchives.ca/2013/05/penetration-part-3.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDW2_jrID3Q
https://www.tankarchives.ca/2016/02/experimental-tank-guns-1940.html

[nimble zodiac]

WoTB Players when the gun specifically designed to be terrible is terrible

[azure marten]

Add project 413 57mm gun back for the kv-1

[compact nymph]

So, a medium with enough prammo pen to ignore most of the armor at the tier but at the same time doing it with T5 levels of damage per minute, being further reduced when firing prammo, and that any tank it sees could simply rofl yolo and outdpm for days?

Your proposal sounds exactly like the kind of tank that is extremely fun and engaging for both sides which WG seems to quite enjoy nowadays with vehicles like the Type 71 and Minotauro, maybe consider applying for a job in their balance department

[dire arrow]

@timid blade after this t62a becomes unstopabble monster in random

[amber aurora]

mot very helpfull for a comunity helper, niether does this comment add to the current interaction

[humble depot]

“Pretty good”

You’re giving the thing TD levels of penetration.

[amber aurora]

besides, to improve the player experience, should be a priority
a gun shoulnt be made "terrible". a gun should be balanced, or in this case atleast usable
if the gun is made to be purpoucifully terrible just remove it and make the kv2 be more expensive to research, adding in a un nessasary step is unnessesary, and frustrating

[stuck acorn]

There are quite a few guns like that in the game. It would be pretty interesting to see them be somewhat usable. Other examples are:

• 105mm on VK 28.01, i would see it decent if it had a bit more AP pen, HEAT pen and quicker reload
• 45mm on MT-25, it could be pretty good as well if time between automatic shots was quicker and it had like 1 more shot (2 more shells) in clip

[amber aurora]

i think wg should start by the U 11 (122mm howitzer) becuse its 1 the stock gun in the kv2,
2 the gun that needs to be had to get the KV 2
and 3, its actualy unusable. 30 mm of pen and a 20 second reload for a HE with 120 damage of splash damage avarage is realy REALY bad
its the most unusable gun in the whole game. it needs balancing

[nimble zodiac]

I’m so sorry for shooting down your message in a channel the devs couldn’t care less about 😂
A 122mm in tier 5, collector or not, does not deserve practical use

I’d opt to just remove it

[unique scaffold]

Fixes to matchmaking are rarely simple however this is on e that would work... T7 annih & smasher always go up a tier... So no t6 1 shot farming... Oh I forgot you aren't interested in balance...

[stone drum]

Don't bother, this channel is à toxic cesspool.
Additionally sadly very few players legitimately care about low tiers for some unknown reason.

[stuck acorn]

It does. It's a howtizer, not an actual cannon as it is on for example KV-1S or SU-100. So by design most of it's stats like aim time, accuracy and reload will be absolute garbage. There would be nothing bad in giving it 400 HEAT alpha, 500 HE alpha and 50-60 HE pen. This is already the single least accurate, longest aiming and longest reloading gun at entire T5. It would work just like KV-2 but without ability to one shot most tanks of the same tier and with garbage HE splash damage. It wouldn't be anything broken and maybe, just maybe it could make this tier slightly more diverse and interesting which is what it needs the most rn

KV-1 was already turned into 2nd worst heavy in the entire tier, so giving players some actual incentive to play it would be nice

(such a change would require rebalance of this gun on KV-2 though, as 9s reload with 400 HEAT alpha at T6 would be just stupidly broken. After nerfing reload by few seconds everything should be fine)

[ember pulsar]

Agree, playing KV-1 feels miserable, armour bounces almost nothing

[amber aurora]

if you do not care, and do not havy anything to add. you are invited to remove yourself from the conversation.

also if wg devs were to remove the U 11 from the KV 1, also remove it from the KV 2, so the stock gun is the 152 please
as someone who had to suffer with stock kv2, i can say everyone would like this change

and as this mega chad called @stuck acorn said, the KV 1 is already bad enough, giving player some incentive to play it is needed, and making the derp usable would also add more divercity to a tier that has none, everything is ither the same light / medium
or the same heavy

[unique scaffold]

The last time people like to play kv-1, they abuse the ever living 🦀 out of it and make newbies wanna quit.

[thorny timber]

t5 newbies are brain dead amywas,even with the big spots they still manage not to hit it.

[violet island]

the only reason you play KV-2 is to make others suffer, so imo you suffering a lot is deserved and it should take a very long time to get the 152

[stuck acorn]

How is current T1 heavy different? It is basically same story, but giving even more advantage to an experienced player.

It's not about old KV-1 being broken, but rather about the fact that it doesn't matter what a tank is, if you can make the armor of it effectively impenetrable if positioned correctly, people at low tiers will not know what to do and you will be able to easly farm them. There were tons of people complaining about AT-2 being too good, despite it's mobility being absolute rubbish and gun situational at most.

old KV-1 wasn't that busted, it was just that players at these tiers were too bad to deal with it most of the time. Basically any heavy tank with reliable armor unless it's gun is complete bs will be treated as OP at this tier.

And current KV-1 doesn't have that armor too become what it used to be again. Regardless of what you do with the guns or how many people will play it, unless you buff the armor it will not work as the old KV-1 used to

@unique scaffold they didn't just nerf it. They killed it

[unique scaffold]

Just saying the reason why wargambling nerfed kv1.

[nimble zodiac]

The real deal is bringing old KV-1 back with minor changes. I think armor is a key component of what made the tank so usable. Being able to sidescrape with even small weakspots presented a strongpoint back in the old days. It can then compete with the other heavies along with a bunch of medium changes to bring variety there and combat the heavy meta.

Suggesting the howitzer buff not only challenges WG’s 5.5 decisions, it just turns it into a 183 heavy for a tier 5, which is just unhealthy. There is skill with sidescraping in KV-1, there’s next to no skill to gamble 500 damage

[amber aurora]

imo still having a effective derp gun adds virety (inglich is not my first linguage sorry) and divercity to the game
also the kv2 is a 183 at tier 6 so why even bother,
not to say it (U 11) should be able to pen everyhting
but 30 mm is actualy unusable. again if wargaming dosent want derps at tier 5 (something i dissagree with becuse derpguns are fun and different from regular guns and can teach new playstiles and prepare people for the kv2)
then just remove it, and put it in a dedicated collectable tank, like what they did with the pz IV gargoil (idk how to spell it)
the 5.5 decisions made the game less unique at lower tiers, basicaly baby sitting the player trough the game. unstead they should make tanks that teach the player
like the A 20 having strong turret armour to teach the players how to play later meds with similar characteristics
or the SU 85B teaching you how to camp and play a TD
the KV 1 how to sidescrape and use your armour effectiveley (and the derp variant how to play heavy assault tanks (also known as KV 2 alike tanks))
by WG making every tier below tier 6 play almost the same for all tank's it removes uniqueness from the game

[final warren]

I swear the WZ 132-1 is covered in oil. The camo is made out of it, they probably have a bunch of matches beside the engine as well

I have had more fires in that tank than in my whole career

[amber aurora]

again the KV 9 option is still a thing.
becuse removing the gun isint good, as it would remove potential. a collectable however makes wg be able to balance it, while also making it not regularly obtainable.
imo removing content from the game shoulnt be done. like take the sherindan missile
if the missile wasent removed it would be OP
if it was removed completely it would just remove the cool and interesting mechanic from the game
making a collectable apeases both sides

[nimble zodiac]

Note that the KV-1 with an effective 122mm will teach just KV-2, not IS-7’s line. Not IS-4’s line. An armored upper plate with strengthened sides will teach those lines

[amber aurora]

the strong armour teaches both lines on its own

[nimble zodiac]

It’s not particularly strong

[quaint knot]

I'm not gonna lie. Back in the day I used the U-11 to extreme effectiveness in the early days. Just gotta use Prammo a bit but even then the HE is fun to spam on silly light tanks

[stone drum]

The Prammo having 240 instead of 340 is pure cringe ngl.

@quaint knot yes.

[quaint knot]

Did they change that ?

[nimble zodiac]

For KV's insult, it's 230 from 450.

Practically halved alpha that you could just high roll with the 85 anyways

[random frost]

Nerf TVP intraclip
Nerf Sheridan view range
Buff 30B dpm
Buff Foch angles/traverse
Plz WG. For the happiness.

[orchid grove]

Nerfing strengths and buffing weaknesses is how you get boring tanks and kill variety

[unique scaffold]

Fasz

[stone drum]

Idk about you, but I certainly won't complain about 30b getting a dpm buff, or Foch getting a gun arc buff.

[random frost]

Ok.
Variety is good.
But everybody might agree that Sheridan and TVP perform a bit too well, whereas 30b and Foch a bit too bad. (Others too, those are just the ones I’m personally focused on right now)
So if we’re not nerfing strengths and buffing weaknesses… then why not nerf the rare weaknesses of strong tanks even more, and buff the rare strengths of weak tanks even more.
Then we may have variety, and balance.

[twilit crystal]

Although sherirat view range needs a nerf, another tank can take the 280 view range role(either give it back to vickers or give it to bc)

[royal maple]

I wish to see T-44-100 buff about gun angles and turret front armor.

[harsh ravine]

The T-44-100 just needs more gun depression.

Tbh, there are some tier 8 tech tree tanks and premiums that can’t really compete in today’s meta and/or just simply outclassed by others

@neat crescent true, most tier 8 mediums don’t really have anything to counter the heavy meta besides some premiums and maybe the Indien

Imo, tier 8 mediums aren’t entirely helpless against heavies, unlike tier 7 and 6 where the disparity between heavies and mediums is huge

[neat crescent]

Meds are close to non-existent on t8, you mostly find em in t9-10

[twilit crystal]

Overall 280 view range is fine, it worked well on the vickers and I don't think there were too many complaints. the Issue with the sheri is the fact it can spot stuff at insane distances and then hit stuff for 600 damage

[burnt venture]

it's because the entire tank's front is lined with fuel tanks. That giant orange block gets hit almost every shot.

And the module HP is much lower. 132-1's fuel tanks only have 150 HP, while T-100's has 200 HP which allows it to tank way more shots despite having a similar module layout

Actually, other light tanks all have 200 HP fuel tanks. It's literally just 132-1 that only has 150 HP fuel tanks

[royal maple]

Agree about that, T-44-100's need, for the most part, slightly better gun depression angles, otherwise it is very uncomfortable to play with -5 angles. I think it's worth doing -7 as well as on a regular T-44 on the LB-1 gun. And, maybe, slightly increase DPM.

[ornate warren]

Guys I ve been long thinking about a mechanic that may balance the tvp in some way, so I would like to get comments here too,

Tvp currently has one of the most toxic and game abusing advantage on the game, which is the burst strength.

So I wonder what if we nerf its current intraclip to its old state and after that implement a mechanic on the tank which does:
-a mechanic that is activated with a button:

•makes the intraclip shorter

•worsens aim in both stationary and on move

•increases next magazine reload time by some time (I was thinking of 4-5 seconds) (this might be too brutal for this mechanic so I m not sure about this one tbh)

This mechanic will need time to be activated after the button push (maybe 3-4 seconds, maybe longer or shorter) and will also need deactivation time.

Im not sure if it would break the game in someway but this is one of the concepts appeared in my mind that may please both short intraclip lovers and short intraclip haters.

Gimme your opinions about it so we can find a way to improve the concept I said

[stone drum]

Seems kinda complex ngl, but in the end its just clip reload boost with some point-less additional nerfs.

[burnt venture]

In general superconsumables would be more balanced if there were actual downsides to them

[ornate warren]

Agreed

@stone drum the main point of this is mostly limiting the total amount of time tvp’s main advantage used in battle. This way it might actually keep its toxic intraclip but also give other tanks some advantage during that

[river valley]

Buff Foch 155 alpha to 600, but make HE alpha 750 so it wont be too busted with it

[real bison]

single shot supremacy gang

[stuck acorn]

KV-1 will never become KV-2/183 for T5. The reasons for that are:

• it will be too inaccurate and not have enough pen to work as 183 does
• it will not have one shoting power of KV-2 and ability to eat half of enemy HP by just hitting and splashing them with HE

Not to mention that WG already broke their 5.5 policy by adding Gargoyle, High Score and Nightmare.

Nobody prevents you from buffing howtizer and buffing the armor as well. Not everyone will use the howtizer, as this gun after buff will still be objectively worse than 85mm

[humble depot]

No. Just no.

[stuck acorn]

it will be just incredibly useless. Being forced to activate it for 3-4 seconds ruins the purpose of quicker intraclip.

If the aim time nerf will be big, it will be borderline useless and if the aim time nerf will be small, it won't change anything. While the reload nerf would just kill the tank on the spot

[violet island]

the point of the tvp is the high burst potential that can only effectively be used by good players and the tank sacrifices any armor for it

[leaden flare]

nah the 4,5s for 1,2k dmg can be used by every single 40%pleb

[stuck acorn]

2s was too long for this tank, but 1.5 is on the other hand too short. Imo they should just make it 1.75s and leave it alone

[twilit crystal]

Imo super speed should be like pc rockets. Don't double reverse speed but make it impossible to reverse

[orchid grove]

If WG is going to need the TVP, they should just take away the mantlet armor. That would fix it IMO

[ornate warren]

I was also thinking about something similiar tbh

Being forced to activate it for 3-4 seconds ruins the purpose of quicker intraclip.

mate I think it will be way better than seeing tvps be able to yolo** without thinking when to act. **

what I tried to make on that opinion is to make the tvp player to switch playstyle depending on the situation it is in and make the tvp user use some of his/her neurons to assume what might happen and act depending on that and activate that thing before anything happens

btw the opinion I mentioned there isnt something on final form, so feel free to make changes on it

[twilit crystal]

Og test tvp never had it

[orchid grove]

OG test TVP had the mantlet armor. It just had serious accuracy issues

[stone drum]

The he alpha should by 960, no less.
It's a bunker busting gun for Fochs sake.

[analog basin]

Give vz55 8* depression or increase the mobility

[azure marten]

it’s fine as it is

[prisma jetty]

Yeah no. It’s already strong.

[stuck acorn]

yoloing is not a problem at all lmao. If a TVP yoloes and dies doing one clip it's great for you and your team

The problem is that not yoloing and doing whole clip without taking any shot in return is disgustingly easy.

Your mechanic will either make it just a pre buff TVP as nobody would use quicker intraclip mode if accuracy was nerfed significantly or everybody would just use quicker intraclip mode if the nerf wasn't significant. It's just not a way to go.

not to mention that WG said themselves multiple times that they won't add any mechanic toggled by buttons as the UI is already too messy on mobile

[ornate warren]

by yoloing I meant was not to death or smth but nvm

besides I get your point

[burnt venture]

if a TVP yoloes and dies doing one clip it's great for your team but terrible for whoever got clipped lol

It's a lose lose, a random person (which could be you) loses half their HP pool with zero counterplay while the other team loses a player.

Autoloaders with huge clips that unload super fast just shouldn't be a thing

[drowsy plaza]

IIRC it was much smaller. It now gets troll bounces from folks who can’t aim, and/or inaccurate guns

[real bison]

RNG sending my perfectly aimed, 0.244, Mach 7 shell (Leopard 1) into the TVP’s mantlet instead of his cheeks (he was standing still):

[final warren]

What'd the 132-1 do to get this kinda treatment

[burnt venture]

All tier X meds and lights have 200 HP fuel tanks, except for 3: 30B, 121B, and the 132-1.

It's just the way they set the tank's modules up. Because certainly 132-1 isn't weak enough already kekw

It's just a tragic tank, that's all there is to it. It's a tank whose strengths are almost completely nullified by the weaknesses, so much so that it's redundant

[stone drum]

Who decided AMX-30b needed a weak fuel tank for no reason...

[leaden flare]

They did that because in testing 30b was really good for some time

[drowsy plaza]

It got three different versions for testing. OP, Very Good, and Tragic. The current is somewhat better than the Rev 3 was as 2600 DPM was pretty appalling.

[twilit crystal]

tbh its not the dont aim part, the thing with the tvp mantlet is that anyone can aim at the cheeks, its just noob bait, if you are aiming at a tvp you are dying

[drowsy plaza]

Not only is the fuel tank weak, but it’s gloriously wrapped around the ammo rack — solution is don’t show the hull.

[burnt venture]

Wot PC TVP:

• 65mm upper plate
• 120mm turret face
• 65mm mantlet with 60mm of armor behind

Blitz TVP:

• 75mm upper plate
• 145mm turret face
• 120mm mantlet with 145mm of armor behind

[twilit crystal]

its definetely not useless but the main purpose is the fact that people are forced to aim in for a second. Its basically noob bait. Wait a few seconds to do 400 damage but turns out you just lost 1200 hp

[stone drum]

Do you know the stats for the first (and possibly second) iterations???

[drowsy plaza]

buff my boy e5 hes the most suffred tank in whole game

[prisma jetty]

Ah yes, a tank that is currently part of the comp meta is “suffering”.

[drowsy plaza]

I just did test in the 3rd version via Pramo. Was a painful experience. I used to have them almost memorized, as I thought the V2 wasn’t a bad thing. The V3 still had a rock of a turret and we where not allowed to face hug in it - as the cupola was planned already IIRC. Loos like the second version had a stock (no food no rammer) DPM of 2628 and the V3 had 2576. Current is 2738. There is a note about a turret buff in update 4.7 it entered test around update 4.5 second Rev for DPM was in 4.9, Rev 3 was 5.8…. Longest test period ever. Trying to ensure it wasn’t a better Leo or STB and really ended up failing IMHO.

[ornate warren]

its performing okay, it just needs a complete rebalance that will make it a fun tank again, meaning that the tank won’t just be for the hardcore sweats, or for the newbies that look for something extremely simple

[stone drum]

I don't see anything about it in WG patch notes for some reason.

It's kinda funny how WG completely oversells 30b In their advertising, lol.
Because that 295mm of heat pen is insane.

[neon zenith]

What do you all think about AMX 50 120 and AMX 50 100 getting -9 gun depression. Because i am struggling on some small hills and rocks and tank is big too. AMX 50 b i think should have 2.5 inter clip. Fotch 155 would be nice to have 3 shells alpha of 400 interclip i dont know maybe 2 sec. or smth. and -6 depression angle.

[real bison]

yeah WG don’t really release stats of test tanks

[stone drum]

That would require them to remodel the turret, which is unlikely unless the tanks gets pbr. Also 2.5s intraclip on 50b would be complete overkill on 50b, it already has good intraclip.
Only reason thing you could give 50b is .299 dispersion/3s aimtime fully equipped.

@neon zenith it would make the tank broken. I am rarely opposed to buffing french tanks, and I love the AMX 50 surbaissé like a brother, but that would make it completely broken ingame and would essentially powercreep every support heavy.
Like I said buffing the dispersion to .316 base, and a .3-.4s aimtime buff is all that Is reasonable.

[granite pebble]

I honestly don't get why they didn't just give the 30B really high pen, higher than average alpha for a 105, and then keep the DPM the same as it currently is

[neon zenith]

idk 50 b has 49,42 % win rate, i think it will help. i am talking about intraclip of course

[azure marten]

The amx 50 120 just got pbr a few updates ago

[stone drum]

You mean last update.

@granite pebble it is a mystery, their is alot of unique aspects of the tank WG could have potentially exploited. I think higher top/reverse speed, better accuracy, and a solid, high penetration HEAT round would have been sufficient to make it an excellent tank.

[uneven surge]

Ain’t a fair comparison cuz in pc a lot of mediums get a lot more stealthy and less likely to be hit unless u decided to show up

[burnt venture]

This has literally nothing to do with armor

TVP is not a tank that should have any kind of armor. Same goes with stuff like Vickers and T-100. Just because the game is smaller doesn't mean paper tanks should suddenly not be paper so they're more forgiving. That's pure 40%er garbage logic.

Lights and meds which have no armor as part of their design should not have 300+mm thick mantlets which are invincible. The fact that the blitz TVP has more than double the mantlet armor of the WoT TVP is a good example of the moronic difference in game design.

[granite pebble]

I mean the issue is that... Yeah, what they said does have some ground. Blitz is a 7v7 arena (in comparison to WoTPC map size anyways) version of the game, except the people playing the game are even worse in comparison. A completely different design philosophy is bound to happen, I mean hell even the alpha of all the 150mm+ guns got brought down just to increase general survivability, amongst many other alpha changes.
Quite honestly the only genuine issue with the TVP's armor layout is the upper plate that can become an auto-ricochet without much of... Well any real effort.

The TVP's armor would be fine were it not for how fast it clips things, and its burst speed would be fine were it not for it's armor.

I mean hell there's the tier 9 AMX 30 that literally is capable of bullying tier 10's with it's armor layout alone but no one calls it problematic because of other things balancing the tank out; Such as positional armor much like the TVP. The main difference being the TVP is lobbing out 1240 clip damage in 4.5 seconds, which is where the armor becomes a problem when combined with the absolutely absurd gun.

[river valley]

I agree. Some people would complain so I suggested the lowered alpha, but personally I am all for standard 155 alpha.

[burnt venture]

Armor on a tank which isn't supposed to have it is garbage design philosophy. Bad players shouldn't be compensated with easier to play tanks, especially not mobility-focused tanks like these which are meant for good players in the first place. If you really want to use bad players as an excuse for poor balancing, then this entire game serves as an example as to why you should never cater to curbside trash. Literally all of the biggest problems with the game come from making heavily armored vehicles too strong to "compensate" for trash players.

The "genuine" issue here is that light tanks and lightly armored mediums have no business having 300mm effective armor on such a significant surface area of the turret. Yeah TVP is stupid in more ways than that, but the armor is still a problem by itself even without the burst being OP. It's the same way that Vickers has 300mm upper mantlet armor and T100 have a 360mm mantlet make no sense (and actually hold back the tanks from being better in other areas)

The AMX 30 example is also exceedingly poor. AMX 30 playing hulldown with some armor (definitely not enough to "bully" tier X) is part of the playstyle consideration. TVP should never have this much positional armor because the entire concept of the tank is to have no armor, like a Leopard 1. They're completely different tanks when it comes to the role that armor plays.

TVP gets too many bounces. And it shouldn't be getting those bounces, especially when the tank specializes in trading 4 shots, with that much mobility. And the wot PC version is simply there to show that the blitz balancing philosophy is trash.

Make a no armor tank have no armor. Nobody likes bouncing off of supposed "light" tanks due to RNG making your shot hit an invincible mantlet that takes up 1/3rd of the turret. It's not some new concept.

[hot glade]

My man write an Essay

[final warren]

I agree with most of your points. Only thing is that Blitz light tanks are essentially medium tanks that specialize in mobility or camo, whereas PC light tanks are actually scouts (since, you know, view range actually means something on PC).

The Vickers is pretty much a medium tank with okay armor and camo, and average mobility with high top speed.

Idk what's going on with the t100. It should have 33mm max armor plates to prevent auto ricochet.

My point is, it makes sense that some light tanks have some armor, like the vick. Everything else I agree with

@hot glade That isn't really an essay. It would only take 5 or so minutes to type

[stuck acorn]

No. It isn't truth by any means. Blitz lights aren't meds by design. They were turned into meds by WG on purpose.

Look at old light tanks that were added to the game years ago. Like SP 1C, RU 251, Lekpz M41 90, pre buff and pre spall liner BC line, Type 62 etc.

They were all very different from meds. You could see they are lights just by looking at them. They were much faster than meds, but were all penetrable with HE. Only exceptions were T54 ltwt and LTTB, but back then having some troll armor was their unique factor. Now every single light gets it for no reason

[flint storm]

you need this ?

[gritty jetty]

Should find a way to buff the Gravedigger. It's been terribly mid for far too long. I don't mean the gun depression (though that would be godsend, imagine a world where a Gravedigger has 7 or 8 degrees of gun depression). I'm talking about that lower plate. You can't go hull down in a Gravedigger, because you don't have gun depression. Flat ground is required, and with that lower plate being so weak and big, it makes the poor Gravedigger obsolete. Its a pain to use outside of events like Boss Mode or Uprising, if that lower plate gets dealt with, people will use the tank more and it can finally get the attention it deserves

[stuck acorn]

main thing unique about gravedigger is gun, if anything would need to be changed about it, i'd go for gun. For example they could add 2 more shells to the clip ( clip damage 540 -> 720), but make intraclip .8 instead of .7 (full clip time 4.9 -> 5.6) and make clip reload longer.

It was never meant to be an impenetrable bunker in the first place

@ornate moon this is wot blitz discord

[ornate moon]

Rinoceronte needs a buff to standard round sometime i cant even pen tier 9 heavies lower plate

[gritty jetty]

I've been using the Gravedigger for a very long time, and it's never the gun that is the issue. The gun itself is fantastic from what I've experienced besides from its lacking penetration. It's just that you're not allowed to use it to its full potential because you're always losing health no matter what position you put your tank. I lost 1,075 health to an FV201 (A45) without bouncing a single shell because of the lower plate. I couldn't even get a full clip out before I was dead, as I was struggling to reposition my tank. It needs to have a chance to use its gun, if you make the clip reload and the intraclip longer, then you may as well just delete the tank from the game, as it'll just be even worse than before.

[stuck acorn]

it won't be even worse. It will get a possibility to deal more damage in one peek which is a huge advantage.

And all you want to do is steamline the tank into another boring allrounder. All tanks need to have their weaknesses regardless if you like it or not. If you allow FV201 to rush you and see your lower plate it's your fault. Not the tank's. You can't complain about getting penned with every shpt after showing your lower plate to the enemy. Especially in case of tank like gravedigger which has very small lower plate

💀 you seariously need to get good. Gravedigger has extremely strong turret side armor and more than usable hull side armor. After angling your turret enemies will need around 220mm of pen to do anything to you and after angling your hull, lower part of the lower plate becomes auto riccochet so unless enemy has 200+ pen HEAT, all is left for them to aim for is very small strip covered by the texture of those weird horns which is quite hard to aim at. You just don't have even the slightest clue on how to play the tank

[gritty jetty]

The FV201 was just an example. There are plenty of times where I am perfectly in a position that I shouldn't be able to be hit and still take tons of damage because of its armor. Heavy tanks are supposed to take hits for the team, you can't do your job as a heavy if you can't even Frontline in the tank. Not to mention, it's side armor, rear armor, and turret armor (aside from the front) are already very easy to penetrate. What is the issue with making JUST the lower plate stronger so it can take more shots when you can still get HE'd on the side by Smashers, SU-152s, ISU-152s, and the like? For reference, all of the white will penetrate 100% of the time.

[winged barn]

So a tank caught out of position will get penetrated? You see this as a problem?

[stuck acorn]

This is not a problem of gravedigger. Gravedigger is a tank that is perfect for bullying T6 tanks and T7 meds, but gets eaten alive in matchamking against T8 tanks where it just can't compete at all.

All your change will do is take away literally only weakspot T6/low pen T7 tanks can shoot at (and sometimes they still need to load gold at lmao) and make it even more of a menace for these tanks.

Against T8 which is true problem of this tank though it won't make any difference what so ever as they usually just clap you through turret anyway.

All you will do is make it even more unbalanced which is just dumb

If you want to buff the armor in any way (which i'm still strongly against) you should go for turret and definetly NOT lower plate

[gritty jetty]

That's an M4 Sherman with standard ammo and no calibrated shells looking at a Gravedigger. A tier 5 Medium looking at a tier 7 heavy. Do you see the issue? The hatch is fine
Hatches are beautiful weak spots. But when a tier 5 can go right through a tier 7's lower plate with THIS much ease, there is a problem.

[stuck acorn]

it can't. You presented a lower plate at a perfect angle a tank will never get. Gravedigger's lower plate is placed very low, so every single tank looks at it from above. You also have pretty strong sides with 82mm of base armor so you can angle it pretty well. There is no way M4 will pen you there in an actual in game scenario

[gritty jetty]

Alright, here are images for (0 degrees up, 0 degrees angled, front view) , (15 degrees up, 0 degrees angled, front view), and (-5 degrees up (5 degrees down), 0 degrees angled, front view), all with the M4 Shermie using standard ammo and no calibrated, while the Gravedigger is using Extra Armor.

Let's not forget that the Hatch on top of the tank is ALWAYS a very good and easily pennable weak spot for the tank, regardless of angling or how hulldown you are

[leaden flare]

werent u the same guy that argued yesterday that gravedigger was better than smasher ?

you clearly have no clue on how to angle
you have no clue how to hulldown and u bring very questionable compairisons to the table

[queen geyser]

what the frick am I reading

[stuck acorn]

Let alone T100. I don't think it should have as much armor, but you can somehow justify it.

All the other T9/T10 lights though without any exceptions should have their amor nerfed to the ground and spall liners removed

You can make them faster to compensate for it and differ them from meds a bit, but they shouldn't have any armor to speak of

[granite pebble]

Not balancing the game around the vast majority of your playerbase is how you outright kill your game, especially with it being a mobile game which is going to attract children and thus there are going to have to be tanks that even a child could play. What you and I think literally does not matter when the fact of the matter is that the devs balance around the fact that bad players are the majority.

And why shouldn't tanks have one piece of armor that they can only use in specific scenarios? The gun mantlets don't actually matter in any situation other than hull down, I've never had trouble penning a Vickers in ANY tank except the WZ-132-1 and that's just because it literally has tier 8 pen.

.....AMX 30 is a poor example?..... Have you even played the tank? None the less even LOOKED at it's armor layout? The hull when you run EA becomes an auto-ricochet when hull down to guns up to 123mm which covers a HUGE basis as well as having a fairly large black hole gun mantlet. You cannot sit here and complain about the Vickers, T-100, and TVP gun mantlet and then sit there and tell me that the AMX 30's having God tier gun mantlets isn't the same, the M4A1 Rev literally needs to have a tier 10 TD shooting at it's gun mantlet in order for it to be penned, same thing with the Pershing.

At this point it seems like you just dislike these three tanks rather than the actual issue itself considering you blatantly disregard the plethora of other examples that exist.

[nimble zodiac]

It’s called sidescraping

[unique scaffold]

Make the Sheridan faster 🧌

[stuck acorn]

if it gets it's armor removed? sure, make it go 75 instead of 65 or smth

[burnt venture]

Bruh you just listed the Rev in the same sentence as an AMX 30 and a Pershing, in a comparison that literally has zero relation to hulldown tanks. That tells me enough about your knowledge of the game.

Have you ever considered that the game had been balanced through 55%-65%wr player stats for tanks for 7 years? And I don't think we were losing players that way. All the recent changes came directly from abandoning that balance for:

• "combat roles" made up by WG themselves
• entire tier rebalancing done very poorly, destroying mid tier balancing and making strong tanks stronger while leaving other already unpopular tanks completely in the dust
• overpowered heavy tanks and heavily armored TDs (in turn causing problems for MM, especially matching tiers)

Balancing around 55-65%ers kept heavy tank skill ceiling low, kept medium and LT skill ceiling high, and WG were free to lower floors of heavys and heavy TDs for noobs. But now it's full-on catering to noobs, with zero regard for tank performance of unicums.

And nobody is saying that there's issues penning tanks. But having these random armored plates on tanks which are supposed to be lightly armored produces random bounces they shouldn't. It's a problem of reliability and there's no reason these tanks should get away with punishment

If you understand the difference between a heavy tank and a light tank so well, I have zero clue why you'd defend those light tanks and lighter mediums having any kind of armor. And then you list a bunch of heaviums and meds which have tons of armor, so I'm not even sure you know what I'm even talking about. Also note that some of the tanks you list are some of the most unpopular, poorly balanced tanks post-9.1 in the entire game.

And lastly, other tanks that you consider for experienced players existing doesn't mean we should make light tanks and softly armored mediums for noobs. "Look at all these other tanks that exist for you, why change this one" is such a dented take.

[granite pebble]

Okay. Your first sentence is ACTUALLY insanely smooth brained, you bash me for bringing up the rev with it's black hole gun mantlet that makes up a good portion of the turret yet you're in here complaining about the Vickers and TVP gun mantlet, im not even gonna bother reading the rest of the absolute shite you just said because holy hell.

[burnt venture]

Lmao, says as much about how poorly you understand the argument you're making

• Lightly armored tanks shouldn't have 300mm mantlets
• "But look at all of these literal hulldown tanks, they all have mantlets!"

🤡 🤡 🤡

[granite pebble]

"How poorly you understand the argument you're making"

Ditto, Mr. "ViCkErS aNd TvP gUn MaNtLeT bAd" despite the gun mantlet being the only part of the turret that doesnt get absolutely blapped.

It's more like you're complaining about such a non-issue for literally any decent player.

Maybe we should make it where HE can shoot through tracks since some tank's track protect their sqwuishy wittle swide armwors fwom gwetting HE'd dwue to occwasional RNG isswue uwu 🥺

Like holy hell man your entire argument is "squishy tank should not have strong gun mantlet"

Ok. I bring up squishy tanks that have strong gun mantlets.

"No not like that, THAT squishy tank with a strong gun mantlet IS NOT like THESE squishy tanks with a strong gun mantlet"

Normally you make actually intelligent arguments but you are cherry picking harder than an entire cherry companies work force when they have an increased quota to make.

Huh, Vickers, a light tank in which should be played hull down.... has a strong gun mantlet... the TVP, a tank which should be hiding it's massive easily penned hull.... has a very small but strong gun mantlet.... thats crazy AND wacky isn't it?

[stuck acorn]

"Vickers, a light tank that should be played hulldown" i don't think there is anything to add here 🗿🗿🗿🗿🗿

[burnt venture]

"A light tank which should be played hulldown has a strong gun mantlet"

Lmao that sentence in and of itself shouldn't be a thing. That's just completely not what a light tank is.

Some tanks have hulldown built into their playstyle. You listed a bunch of tanks with that already in mind, then tried to call out my argument by pointing to... a pair of slow tier 8 meds and an AMX 30? (which apparently has "god tier" turret armor, lmao cool joke)

• They're at a different tier
• They have nowhere close to the mobility
• They play completely differently
• Plus you're completely blowing their armor out of proportion for your argument alone
• Saying M4 Rev has great turret armor: 🤡

TVP and Vickers could be more well balanced in its current state (Vickers could even be better than it is now) if it didn't have the armor which randomly bounce shots it shouldn't. The entire point I'm making is that these tanks SHOULD get punished for peeking poorly and making bad decisions. These tanks are a completely different case from your hulldown specced tanks, no matter how "squishy" their hull is.

And imagine bringing up a completely irrelevant point about HE pens just so you can bash on a superunicum lmao

[jade cargo]

frogonahorse#0 has been warned.

[stone drum]

Yeah and the AMX-30 basically lost its gun for that armour.

@granite pebble you don't run EA on AMX-30, as if you do, shots tend to ricochet under the mantle and kill your crew, versus if you don't, it generally won't hit any modules. Also doesn't change the fact it's the third thinnest upper plate in tier X.

He's not referring to tanks classifications he's referring to internal roles like "calvary" "storm trooper" etc.

[granite pebble]

I've been referencing the GUN MANTLET the entire time with AMX 30's, and the M4A1 Rev... but ok guy.

And I mean... the hull armor is the only actually problematic part of the TVP's armor, same with the vickers, so it's actually baffling to me that you had started this entire argument being so hard focused on their gun mantlets when the thing that makes them harder to punish is the fact that all they have to do is start reversing on a ridgeline and their hulls that can't be overmatched by anything in the game bounce every shell that's fired at them.

Out of the trio of tanks you're focused on, the T-100 is the only one that doesn't deserve any kind of armor since it's already such an insanely low profile tank that it can safely hide behind things no other tank can.

Hell, we're lucky they didn't get the tier 10 TVP the spaced side armor that the tier 9 has just so it's sides can be nuked with HE without any issue.

Also I did go back and read the biblical event you typed out because as much as I like to screw about im not THAT willfully stupid. WG didn't "create" the tank classifications, that is literally just what the tanks are, remember when WG cared a fair bit about historical accuracy years ago? Yeah, thats why "mediums, lights, heavies" all that even exists and serves now simply as a baseline of how certain specs about the tank should be rather than strict balancing guidelines with some outliers here and there.

@stone drum I mean, having a gun mantlet that no tank in the game can pen that covers most of your turret on a fairly flat turret and hull armor that when hiding your lower hull you auto-bounce everything that isnt 128mm+ is a fairly good trade-off for having worse DPM than other tier 9 meds.

Well, you auto-bounce when you use enhanced armor anyways

[burnt venture]

How is the hull armor the problem when you shoot at the turret way more often?

How is the side armor point even relevant?

Lmao and you're talking about tank roles, while defending a light tank and a very fast medium having more armor than a Leo 1 or a 140. If T100 doesn't deserve armor I don't see how Vickers and TVP magically would be OK.

The difference between the other tanks you mentioned and TVP / Vickers is that their mantlet armor falls apart against same or higher tier heavy tanks and TDs. The Rev, Pershing, and AMX 30's turrets turns to swiss cheese once they aren't fighting lower tier tanks or mediums. TVP / Vickers have armor thicknesses 300mm+ on those impenetrable areas which look the same to almost all tanks they see, on top of being faster and having little to no drawbacks on firepower.

It's a completely different case lul. As I said, terrible examples which show you don't know what you're talking about

[real bison]

really fun to see a LT i should be murdering every single time win because for some reason WG thought it was an excellent idea to give said LT armour that can be instantly snapped to an autobounce angle (simply a skill issue on my side ig)

[granite pebble]

....I dont know where in god's name you got this premonition that the AMX 30's turret completely falls apart when it's not fighting lower tier tanks, this is a calibrated Ho-RI premium AP shell firing at the tier 9 AMX without using enhanced armor.

The hull armor is an issue because as I said, if they're sitting on a ridge, shoot you, and you turn to fire at them you dont have a chance in hell of penning them because of the fact that their hull literally cannot be penned.
Your argument has been based around the entire thing of "Well look at this small piece of armor that serves as a bounce spot for poor aim or bad RNG"
I don't understand how you don't see how the hull armor is any less problematic for when you want to try to get a quick shot off on these tanks, only for them to have enough hull armor to auto-bounce because of a very slight change due to them backing up.

[burnt venture]

If hull armor somehow is more problematic than the turret when tanks play hulldown, then you have terrible aim lmao

And we have already established that AMX 30 is not the same thing as a TVP or Vickers, right? It's a hulldown medium with a soft hull and a terrible gun. It's a hulldown medium and you're comparing it to light tanks and a clipper medium with basically light tank mobility.

Even if you think AMX 30 armor is a good comparison, TVP and Vickers are still in a completely different league in terms of firepower and mobility, especially since AMX 30 has one of the worst performing guns on a tier 9 med. So there's still little to no point at all being made here about how they "deserve" that level of turret armor.

Not sure what's your weird fixation on hull armor being the problem. There's been plenty of people saying TVP and Vickers etc. have too much turret armor. It's not like this is the first time somebody brought this up...

What you don't understand, frankly, is how dumb the comparisons you draw are and what actually are issues in the game. I would suggest go back and read my first point lol.

[granite pebble]

You really do just read what you want to read dont you?

if they're sitting on a ridge

only for them to have enough hull armor to auto-bounce because of a very slight change due to them backing up.*

And yeah your initial point that I interacted with was
"Lights and meds which have no armor as part of their design should not have 300+mm thick mantlets which are invincible. The fact that the blitz TVP has more than double the mantlet armor of the WoT TVP is a good example of the moronic difference in game design."

I mean if the absolutely tiny gun mantlet that the TVP has is such an issue, then you have terrible aim. :)

Vicker's gun mantlet is troll at best, unless it has some kind of hidden plate like Pershing's behind the initial plates, so I mean... just get better aim I guess lmao

But yeah anyways it's not like RNG could bring your shell down and your hit the hull, or you try to snap shot them and hit their hull or anything, just get better aim 4head and you'll never have bad RNG ever again!!!111!!

[burnt venture]

You do realize that if you want the hull to be non-autobounce, then you'd need to reduce that to 30mm thick so it can be overmatched right. Like there's no way to remove that for everybody unless you make it overmatchable for 105 and 100mm guns (and frontally HE-pennable on flat ground)

Removing the turret armor is simply a better solution. Again, not so sure why you're so intensely fascinated with the hull armor when the turret armor is an easily fixable, more apparent solution.

You've clearly shown that you have a very basic understanding of the game, since you're reducing entire tanks into just a couple stats without considering the whole picture. That's why your other examples are curbside trash. I've said what I've said lol, but you can keep monkeying on about "omg but this is red and this is green, look at this I pulled up a link" without considering what the tanks actually do in games and how their mobility and firepower differences change the entire narrative to be more than just the armor

oh wait, you have. Let's see: "I have no problems with Vickers mantlet at all, except in 132-1" is what you've said. Surely we can take the word of someone who has already shown they have no ability to analyze tanks, over the word of a superunicum that these tanks bounce too many shells off of those mantlets. Surely there's no personal biases at play here and surely you aren't just saying that for the sake of arguing. Surely you've NEVER bounced off those mantlets, nor gotten any bounces when playing those tanks, right?

You made a point, I countered basically every point you made, and now you're just being dented for no reason

Lmao did you get warned by a mod somewhere back there too? Who saw that one coming 🗿

[stone drum]

I love how regardless of the arguement it ultimately devolves into AMX 30 having an awful gun.

[granite pebble]

I didnt have a problem with the Vickers entire armor set up except in the 132-1* Once again reading what you want

Oh and there's that super uni point again... You know what'd be crazy and wacky?.... If i was a super uni too GASP!!111!!! Im so proud that me and you both are able to absolutely stomp the human equivalent of bots, such an acheivement, truly.

and no, I genuinely do not have a problem with either of their turrets, because of the fact that the TVP's gun mantlet is troll at absolute best with the vickers having the slightly more reliable gun mantlet of the two due to the bit of the mantlet that overlaps with the rest of the turret.

I think i've had more bounces on their hulls than I have their turrets due to how little it takes for their hulls to turn into 270mm+ plates from terrain and height differences.

My main issue with the TVP is the fact that its as fast as the Leo and dumps out 1240 damage in less time it takes for the Leo to reload a single shell.

I got warned for saying "J.C", good job on trying to get a high ground again, I know you take Blitzcord arguments to heart.

[burnt venture]

"I'm a super uni too"

"I bounce off TVP and Vickers upper plate more than their turrets"

"I have an issue with TVP being as fast as Leo + clip, but I am A-OK with TVP having more turret armor"

The joke continues to write itself

There's no high ground here lol. There's two things:

• you making dented arguments
• me making counter arguments, finding out you're a degenerate, and then making fun of you from here on out

[patent helm]

dumb question but what i dont get what had been mentioned is that the tanks could be buffed in other areas to compensate for the armor nerf (which i support aswell) but wouldnt that make them equally dangerous / more dangerous in the end leading to the same result of you not being able to defeat it

[prisma jetty]

Nerfing armor but buffing other areas caters more towards skilled players, meaning it would be less dangerous as a whole

[granite pebble]

It's almost like if the intra-clip was brought back up and the reload was slightly reduced that the tank wouldn't be so toxic and the armor would be a non-issue.

Awwwwe, im a degen because I dont agree with your wittle arguements in blitzcord? So sad, ima go cwy myswelf to sweep.

The only joke is the fact that you very clearly get off to winning arguments in this discord lmao

[burnt venture]

Ah yes, there can't be more than one way to fix a problem. Especially this problem which permeates to more than just the TVP.

You've already shown that you're unable to understand how tank balance works, so there isn't a lot more to say here lol.

I can't believe I found someone dented enough to defend lighter tanks having 300mm mantlet armor. There's plenty of stupid takes but this one goes above and beyond

And imagine using discord itself as an argument. "I can't win, so I'm going to write this guy off on using discord when I myself is also using discord"

Kekw you should take care and keep the circus running

[real bison]

I don’t think I’ve seen it mentioned in here, but the buff to the TVP’s dispersion after firing is also a part of why it’s so potent.

Which is why also the 4005 now needs (IMO) to have both retcal and shell reload boost to actually deal damage at range, since it’s after shot dispersion was left the same, but the intraclip was decreased, meaning that some time will be wasted waiting to be more accurate

if I were to suggest something for the TVP, it would be for the after shot dispersion to be nerfed, mantlet nerfed and maybe a reverse speed decrease

[granite pebble]

Alright, lets nerf AMX 30B guys, it has too much armor, and uh lets Nerf the T100's um... gun mantlet thats about the same size as a lot of guns are.

I didn't write you off as "Using discord" holy hell my guy someone would point at a red car and say "Brown car" and you would go on a tangent about how the color brown isn't actually real and how wrong they are for saying that because brown is just a shade of orange.

The only joke is the fact that you very clearly get off to winning arguments in this discord lmao

only joke is the fact that you very clearly get off to winning arguments

I know it's hard for you to read, but please, please for the love of god at least act like you arent unhinged and worship yourself because of you being a super uni in a mobile game where a vast amount of players have no idea what they're doing.

Like, have you ever considered how you sound? Like have you genuinely considered it, you bring up how you're a unicum twice, and how that somehow makes me... wrong for arguing with you? Then use the fact that I said im also a super uni and dismiss the fact that that's not some kind of grand achievement in this game and you then proceed to use that against me.

You then call me a... degenerate because I dont agree with you and then tell ME to keep the circus running? Do you have any mirrors in your house? Like any, any at all? You seem like an absolute narcissist lmao

[stone drum]

Nerf cheiftans mantlet!!!

@burnt venture
WG: OK, sure nerfs 50b turret armour too >100mm

[burnt venture]

lul this mans is just fully on tilt now

If we suddenly started talking about the 30B, can we please give Leo 1 a 250mm mantlet while we're at it, since that seems to be really balanced in your opinion. Why don't we give Batchat upper turret armor too. Or give the 50B the old turret armor it had.

Sadly, I don't make fun of other people for winning. I make fun of other people for being dented. That's the difference between us

You also seem to be unable to understand that like 30min ago I switched from seriously arguing to clowning on you. So who's the guy furiously typing about nothing now? kekw

[patent helm]

e50 would deserve bigger mantlet

[granite pebble]

I didn't make fun of you for winning, I made fun of the fact that you brought up the fact that you're a unicum and treated like that immediately invalidated anything I said.

Once again again reading what you want to read and not what was actually said.

Who said anything about typing nothing? Grandpa have you taken your meds today?

Also guys, can we nerf Progetto's mantlet? The turret isn't supposed to have any armor, the hull is

[stuck acorn]

If anybody thinks that current state ofhigh tier light tanks in general is justfied he's just a clown. And it's not only about gun mantlets. It's about stupid armor values all around on both turret and hull and idiotic amount of highly angled plates eating half of shots going towards said tank

RU-251 is a light tank
Lekpz M41 90 is a light tank
SP 1C is a light tank

Vickers light is not a light tank
Vickers CR is not a light tank
Object 84 is not a light tank

These are prime examples of medium tanks

I could go on and expand this list much more, but i think everybody with IQ higher than an average chimpanzee in zoo already gets the point

[burnt venture]

Me looking for a single person that agrees with you:

Oh wait here’s one: 🤡

[granite pebble]

I didn't know we were arguing for people to agree with us

You REALLY care about your internet popularity points dont you?

[stone drum]

To be fair, lekpz and Sp1c are both quite weak.
Albeit mostly due to horrendous shell velocity.

[burnt venture]

For someone who cares so much about balancing “for the playerbase” you surely can’t seem to get what people with a sense of logic actually agree on

[stuck acorn]

they aren't the best tanks, but they are perfect examples of what light tank should be. You could buff them a bit, but i think they do well

[ancient rampart]

SP 1 C ended up being my second favorite light tank in the game
it's a damn near perfect light

[granite pebble]

Hold on I'll actually reply when I'm done pooping

[stone drum]

If they both had better viewrange + camo, and a shell velocity buff they would both be superb tank imo

[granite pebble]

You know I was quite confused as to what you were even talking about since I didn't remember talking about the playerbase today other than when referencing the fact that us being super uni doesn't mean much when we basically just farm bots in pubs.

#tank-balance-discussion message

But then I went allllllll the way back to the second message I had sent, and you know? I didn't actually state that I have a damn about the general balance. I stated that not balancing around the vast majority of your playerbase is how you kill the game, which is a fact. I also stated that what both you and I think just doesn't matter because of the fact that the devs balance around the majority of the playerbase, which are bad players.

I had actually reread the first message I had sent last night as well just to make sure it wasn't that one either. It's crazy how in the first message I replied to you with I had stated how the TVP's armor wouldn't be an issue were it not for the burst speed, and how the burst speed wouldn't be an issue were it not for the armor.

For someone who seemingly likes to go back and read messages from quote literally over 4 hours at this point, it's crazy how you can miss so much.

You know, if you read things for what was said not what you thought the person meant, your life would be a lot easier.

[burnt venture]

Funny how my messages became shorter and your messages became longer 🗿

It’s pretty clear who’s no longer serious and who’s malding

[granite pebble]

Funny how you think im malding 🤪 💀 👍 🫡 💀 🗿 (I can put emojis too, look at me)

Also I was still pooping, it took longer than I thought so i got bored and replied

[quick lichen]

Training room 1v1

I’ll host it

[burnt venture]

There's a clear difference in balance direction between tier 8 and below light tanks and tier 9 and 10 LTs.

If you look at Vickers, T100, and Sheridan lines, all of them at tier 8 and below follow similar pathing: FV301, T49 / Bulldog, RU / SP1C have basically no armor to speak of, while being fast and having pretty competitive firepower. The 54 Ltwt and Lttb specialize in having some armor while being fast, but sacrifice firepower and flexibility.

But once those lines hit tier 9, all of the sudden they gain way more armor and lose a bunch of mobility. They just instantly became medium tanks from there.

It's so funny that batchat and 132-1 are the most hated on and people say they're "bad", but they're the only tanks which are actually still light tanks beyond tier 8 and carry out the same gameplay philosophy through the entire line.

This debunks the entire scam propogated by WG called rebalancing for continuity reasons. "[These changes] help put in order the gameplay succession throughout the entire tech line" is the biggest lie ever when it comes to the most popular lights.

Who knew that taking a T49 or 54Ltwt or FV301 and taking away the main disadvantages of their entire tank class would result in overcooked tanks 🫢

There's also a complete lack of stock grinds for these lights, despite being tier 9s. None of these LTs have turret upgrades, and all have only a single gun upgrade with a single track upgrade. And all of the stock guns are completely competitive at tier 9 with close to 3K DPM.

https://blitzanalysiz.com/blog/2021-03-13_vehicle_class_imbalance/ Blitzanalysiz even concluded two years ago that tier 9 LTs were, strangely enough, an outlier in light tank performance relative to other tiers. I wonder why

[granite pebble]

Something.... something... WG tries to balance around bad players... something something.... complain about tanks catering towards worse players.... something something.... better players do good in any tank but especially so in the tank lines that specifically cater towards these players

[burnt venture]

I wonder why the tanks which are competitive meta are also simultaneously meta in random games for all players of any demographic.

I wonder why heavys and heavy TDs lead the charts in performance and popularity across all tiers.

Surely catering towards garbage players isn't a balancing problem when you intentionally make certain tanks overperform to compensate for how bad the playerbase is.

Surely the entire E100 line wasn't just buffed into the sky because of how many bad players play the line.

Surely traverse speeds for tons of heavy tanks and heavy TDs were buffed because certainly, light tanks and mediums were just overperforming and topping the charts.

If you had eyes and hands, you could probably see that this is the game direction

Balancing towards bad players is a big issue, because it lowers skill ceiling for tanks which already underperform while raising the floor for tanks which already overperform

[granite pebble]

Im aware it's an issue, but im aware it's an issue that isn't ever going to be fixed. I've been aware of this issue since whenever I first started playing blitz from switching over from PC and the IS-6 was literally incapable of using it's 217 pen APCR and pen the tiger 2 frontally what so ever. These issues have been present for the 6 years I have played blitz and not once were they ever fixed aside from the Type 71 that was too good to ignore.

The problem is that there are too many people who think that the way things currently are is perfectly fine, that these people have existed for the entirety of the 6 years that I have played the game. Heavy tanks being buffed up the way they are won't change, I mean they literally buffed heavy tank HP what.... twice over the years? Then the buffing of heavy tank traverse rates and even the engine power on some of them back in 9.1.

I honestly dont even know what the "best" thing we could even hope for WG to do that is within the realms of what they normally do

[burnt venture]

What WG normally does is pretty awful, so no high hopes there

[granite pebble]

I mean.... At least the E4 is a bit overtuned and the 50B is genuinely good now... So they kinda did a good thing for once lol

Im genuinely scared of the autoloader rebalance they intend on doing though

[stone drum]

The sad part about batchat being one of the only light is that it used to be a medium...

[autumn zodiac]

Incoming global Tank destroyer camo value nerf

[burnt venture]

Autoloaders in general are just going to go in the wrong direction.

The DPM, burst damage, and burst speed is getting so ridiculous that it completely overwhelms the downside of having a "long" clip reload. And then they keep cramming superconsumables on them like they aren't already busted

[stone drum]

I'm scared too, I am worried France will be absolutely butchered because of other nations autoloaders being busted.

@granite pebble I'm afraid they are just going to tack on a 5s clip reload nerf, and accuracy nerf across the board and while nerfing the overperforming tanks, completely obliterating the balanced and underperforming ones.

[granite pebble]

Im hoping their "rework" is more so towards the problematic tanks

[patent helm]

i mean french non autoloader tanks get nerfed too kekw

[burnt venture]

They're going to just not address the actual problem, and nerf accuracy. That's usually what they do

[stone drum]

I mean to be fair they have Buffed the accuracy on a fair bit of tanks recently, but not enough to change the overall gun handling profile.

[burnt venture]

they've only buffed accuracy on certain select tanks. At tier X they only really did gun handling buffs on 907 and TVP as far as I even remember

Gun handling buffs are so rare these days, it's always in the nerf section

[stone drum]

Well I know AMX m4 45 for example got an insane handling buff.

[nimble zodiac]

We don't talk about the last time you had that 😳

So that means Cruiser II needs a nerf

Not gonna lie, it's actually as OP in tier I right now as it was in tier 3 when it got released with like, Otsu levels of DPM

[quick lichen]

You won

[ember ledge]

Where could i give my suggestion to upgrade tanks?

[nimble zodiac]

If you mean buffing tanks, then you're already here

[unique scaffold]

I have a Panther/M10 and i wish they create the Ersatz Camo for that tank, i am not asking for this tank to buff but at least create a Legendary Camo like Ersatz.

[burnt venture]

Bruh what even is the tragic state of the 50 120 right now

It's essentially gotten an alpha nerf, gun handling nerf, AND mobility nerf since its release, with basically nothing to compensate it other than slightly more DPM.

It's hands down the worst tier 9 heavy. It's basically unplayable. Why does it have 30 deg/ sec traverse. Like just what even is that. An Emil II has 32 deg/s. A tortoise has 39 deg/s.

[harsh ravine]

Some of those problems can be somewhat relieved if WG gives the 50 120 more gun depression and elevation, something it should’ve gotten with the PBR change.

50 120 and tier 9 Foch are in a tragic state tbh.

@burnt venture Very true, I have no idea to this day why WG nerfed the hull traverse of the 50 120.

That DPM “buff” should not be called a buff nor should it have warranted those nerfs. The difference in DPM is so negligible

[burnt venture]

Even if it had better gun depression it would still be terrible. It doesn't have hull armor like the 50B and that was the reason why it had much better traverse speed previously. Now it's even slower and has 380x3 which is just as stupid as the terrible bloom OTM.

[stone drum]

Big brain move.

[burnt venture]

gun nerfs for useless buffs

"We don't buff or nerf tanks if we do both at the same time!"

Best joke by WG

[harsh ravine]

On the topic of buffing and nerfing tanks at the same time, I’m still salty what they did to the Indien. Them removing all of its armor just for a 200~ DPM increase is so dumb.

[stone drum]

I mean they added magnate, which is basically the old indien if you miss it.

[unique scaffold]

And the Fixer is SuperPershing

[winged barn]

Yikes taking 1/3 of the traverse off?

[barren bear]

It’s so annoying to play against 2 Autoloader direct next to each other (people they play in train)
I played 8 Matches and in 5 of them I played against auto loader (2x 2 SMV CC 64,2x 2 Emil 1, last was 1 Emil1 + a SMV CC 64) maybe Wot can fix this bc you have no chance especially when the 2 autoloader play in train

[long light]

Wargaming doesnt "fix" this, there's nothing to fix, if you encounter a platoon with double autoloader you just gotta be more careful while playing, watch your own moves and the platoon ones, watch where you can go and where you cant, adapt yourself to what your tank can do and cant, etc

The most extremist solution could be to not allow players to play in a platoon if both are using an autoloader/reloader but it would only bring problems for players since it would be unfair if they cant play with the combination of tanks they want to play, you just gotta adapt to the situation if there's a platoon with autoloaders

[stuck acorn]

I wouldn't give a bat chat and batchat AP as a prime examples of lights after they buffed their armor and gave spall liner for literally no reason.

Batchat AP used to be sooo noice to play back in the day when it had literally 0 armor, but they obviously had to ruin it

[neon zenith]

AMX 50 120 and 100 because of height its impossible to do anything if tank is near you- need very badly - 9 gun depression

[grizzled veldt]

ye… if u hate it just join them

[prisma jetty]

They made Indien actually insane

[main tulip]

Indien change was a buff though, and made it more in line with the rest of its line

[stuck acorn]

Indien change made a perfect sense. It just resembles the rest of the line much more. They could have made it a bit faster if they were taking all armor from it, but i still think it's fine

[queen geyser]

what gun are u using ?

[jade cargo]

robogen123#0 has been warned.

[river valley]

It should get a buff, definitely a better mobility would help

[sharp forge]

Skoda T56 need have reticle stabilization mechanic

[long light]

Skoda T56 doesnt need the VZ line mechanic, its already strong without It and far from average, you could maybe elaborate a 'why It needs this mechanic' but mostly likely not going to get added to it

[river valley]

Can you add an option to display dispersion in MOA instead of meters/100m?

[burnt venture]

I've played it with both the 310x4 and the 380x4. Both are tragic.

Mostly because they've just destroyed the mobility and agility of the tank, which it literally needs because it has no hull armor like the 50B and is a giant barn

This tank turns slower than superheavy TDs, it's incredibly awful

[queen geyser]

for me 3 shell worked quite decent, tank lacks mobility but it was playable for me, I like the tier 8 far more tho

[main tulip]

most tier 9s feel pretty OP against tier 8s tbh, I'm not sure why but I think the firepower difference is quite large compared to other tier gaps

[autumn zodiac]

The best part of the whole thing is one of the least armored heavies is getting heavy mobility lmao

[burnt venture]

The entire point of 50 120 and 50 100 having better mobility than 50B was because of their complete lack of hull armor.

The entire point of 50 120 having worse gun depression was that it had a tier 10 gun at tier 9.

Now we have a goofy ass 50 100 with turret armor but no gun depression.
A 50 120 that turns slower than a Tortoise, does less clip damage, has the aimtime of a T30 and .34 dispersion.
A 50B that lost all of its flexibility, which then headed in the same direction as all the other autoloaders with the intraclip buffs because gasp 4 shells with 3 sec intra doesn't work as well as 3 shells

The rebalancing for continuity is just a massive fail. None of these tanks are remotely even similar to each other anymore. You might as well just reset the line back to pre-9.1 and they would make more sense with each other

[granite pebble]

I will say the only saving grace of the 50 120 is that it can't at least be HE'd by even light tanks.

Thats not a lot but it's... Something.

Overall, I don't even wanna touch the tank now, I'm glad I grinded it out before they changed it

[twin egret]

(premiums unaffected)

[azure marten]

Great news for any other class on mines and dead rail

[supple turtle]

Why am I ALWAYS put in a higher tier? I've played 200 games this year and 1973 games I got stuck in with 5 tanks of a higher tier. that's playing tier4, 5,6,7,8. on encounter, supremacy and ratings. Is there a special button to press to avvoid this? I don't mind playing a few, but it's over 90% or the games

[glad cove]

This is unfortunately the down fall of playing tanks that can be uptiered and as of now the mm will not be fixed by wg and it will stay this way until enough people complain

[stone drum]

That's because you're playing incredibly low tier vehicles, I recommend buying a tier 8.

[patent helm]

just play tier x duh

[twilit crystal]

Heavies finally boost their 400 alpha guns up there while meds get 50% alpha boost while only losing a bit on reloas

[nimble zodiac]

I'm not sure how you low-tiered 1973 of your 2000 games, all with 5 vehicles in the higher tier, instead of other variants like two higher tier vehicles.

Lying and complaining about MM? That's a double whammy 😮

[burnt venture]

I played 23k games at tier X and I was always top tier, pls fix the game MM broken

[nimble zodiac]

Must be playing a preferential MM tank 😤

E100 might as well be because it's so dumb to play for a tier 10

[drowsy plaza]

E100 needs a buff based on 99% of the players in them in game recently though 😉

[burnt venture]

The only way that line will ever look balanced based on performance stats is if they make every one of those tanks have impervious side armor

Tiger II needs minimum 200mm, E75 and E100 needs 250

You can buff other stats all you want but if most players still pull out sideways you haven’t fixed the problem

[stone drum]

200mm sides aren't thick enough, ISU-152 can still penetrate it.

I would says 350mm with a 1.5 armour durability coefficient would the the absolute minimum.

[drowsy plaza]

It’s not just the Sides. It’s folks who don’t even attempt to angle frontally, and often while doing so try to shoot HE for a ~200 hit and think with their reload they will out trade a hull down tank who’s pasting them with standard ammo through the straight on lower plate. I’m not sure how one can make it to tier X thinking that sitting in the open not angled against hulldown opponents is way for ensuring success.

[winged barn]

They are just playing underperforming tanks that need buffs. All the goldspamming sweats and their broken tanks are the reason they lose.

T32 buff when

[thorny timber]

T32 is alright in the aspects it's in,just a little pen buff and it's good to go

[stone drum]

Minotauro:

[ornate warren]

T32 performs well, but one of the discomfort parts of the tank is its pen imo

[analog basin]

Pls buff the Terrain crossing capacity of vz55, it has only 75% on ground and 58% in water.. i feel as playing a stock tank that stuck on the ground when I turn the hull

[vale cape]

Me and my twin brother

[violet gate]

the Czech heavy line is just the Polish Heavy line and the end tank is just a czech IS-4

[analog basin]

Atleast they should buff the armour on vz55.. holycow a 71tons tank has useless armour

[violet gate]

turret armor: good
hull armor:

[remote blaze]

Buff the caliban. It's not even fun. I hate that i got it in the expo container its the worst one in it.

[stuck acorn]

i guess you didn't realize that was an irony 😂

[main tulip]

T32 is already busted, and the pen on it is fine.

[orchid grove]

It’s because the higher the tier, the more players there are. I.e, there’s more tier 6 players than tier 5, more tier 7 players than tier 6, etc…

So that’s why you’re more likely to be bottom tier than top tier no matter the tier you play, except tier 10

[thorny timber]

It's not even close to 'busted' it's a strong heavy but not busted at all,just alright in terms of a tier 8 heavy even with below average pen

[leaden flare]

its busted
it has 218 which is avg for t8 heavy pen
avg t8 dpm
insane turret
decent mobility
super consumables
sandbags + tons of hp

they literally removed weaknesses from it with each update

[thorny timber]

Nope

Average penetration - The 'average pen for heavy' still struggles to pen the tiger 2 at the front from anywhere except from the hatchet so

Average - The DPM is alright

Average Armor - The turret is good in the trade for the paper hull,some heavies can pen the mantlet whereas some tds can pen the whole upper plate itself

Slightly above average mobility - The mobility is nice,might be more for a heavy but doesn't really give any big upper hand since it's not even close to meds or lights

Super consumables - It has only one and it's reactive...

Average hp (superheavy level with provisions and equipments) - The hp is alright,it isn't 1.9k base like vk100,kv-5,vk168.

It's a jack of all trades with a hulldown playstyle,try to pick up different tactics when trying to fight an experienced t32 player.

This is the same reason why e5 got nerfed for being a jack of all trades and now it's a boring tank with no advantageous playstyle.

@main tulip try to play t32 in tier 9 matches,your pen is almost useless against normal heavies in t9 itself,nothing except the specific spots can be penned in standard,also most t8 tds can still pen t32s upper plate regardless of whether they are using standard or prammo

[main tulip]

The Tiger II was literally made by WG to have brain dead armor that is impenetrable to standard but becomes butter to most prammo. The fact that T32 can't penetrate it is not a knock against its penetration at all. Also the upper plate is quite strong nowadays, most tier 8s will need pramo to pen it if they're not looking down on it

[woeful pollen]

China light tank really bad as hell...
Dunt grind for it😢

[main tulip]

You act like every other tier 8 heavy is going to butter tier 9s from the front with standard, lol. The average pen for tier 8 heavies with APCR (excluding IS-6 Fearless) is 219.8 (12 tanks), and the average for AP (excluding T32 itself, and T34 Independence) is 224.4 (32 tanks). The T32 with 218 AP pen is superior to 219 APCR, and only 6mm less than the average for AP tanks, which is effectively meaningless in practice. None of these tanks will be able to penetrate tier 9 heavies from the front except for in "specific spots," that's literally how the game is meant to be.

Additionally, the T32's upper plate is about on par with the Tiger II's, ~248mm vs ~250mm effective. However, when using gun depression, the T32's can reach some more severe angles, making it actually superior in practice. "Paper hull" lol, it's superior to the IS-3, Caernarvon/Action X, AMX 50 100, Chieftain/T95, Yoh, Caliban, IS-6, and others from the front.

[leaden flare]

None of the heavys u mentioned have access to sandbags and all of them suffer from insanely big weakspots while t32 is almost invincible when hulldown

[queen geyser]

When I saw T32 dispersion I was like hell naw but ingame it didnt feel so bad, its a good tank

[stone drum]

It's a derp tank... lol.
You just need to unclench your booty cheeks mate.

[remote blaze]

I know its derp i enjoy kv2, kv1s, lycan, t49 and even 183 but the caliban has nothing going for it . I feel the enemy laughs
It should have better hesh pen or aiming time not to mention the shell velocity

[thorny timber]

No? Matter of fact is that you're just glorifying T32 for what it actually is,common mm heavies like tiger 2,53tp,is-3,5,vk100 have more overall pen values than that tanks like t32 in standard and all of the tanks i mentioned above are labelled as 'common mm heavies' so you'll find one of them at least 3 times in atleast 2 matches anyways,that's if the battle even has heavies. you might think that it doesn't even play much of a role in battle but it does. Effectiveness of c.shells supercharger and the sidescraping and hulldown weakspots to hit are gonna be harder to see so you have to rely on prammo often and the mm doesn't show you mercy,if your t32 is maxed out more than half of the times you're just gonna get matched a tier higher and it's common.

Also it doesn't even matter that the t32 can use its depression and get the most red upper plate ever,tiger 2 still have some existent gun depression and smaller weakspots vs standard so it can hulldown too,look at the upper plate's small gun mantlet and the hatchet themselves,the t32 still has bigger exploitable weakspots even with using all of the depression it can (which is rare to see any player using anyways) not to mention that T32 only does good in hulldown itself,there's nothing else that works on t32,not sniping since it already has low pen so without supercharger it'll be shells made out of scratch,not a front liner since your Armor is only efficient when hull downing,the only difference at hulldown positions is that you don't need to use prammo against t32 for it to be destroyed,whereas in prammo vs tiger 2,tiger 2 loses easily because of the t32s more distributed Armor at turret and exploitable Armor at hull whereas tiger 2 has more of an equal distribution to all spaces,hence every spot is either red or transparent and all of the tanks you mentioned have something better than Armor compared to t32,is-3 has better speed pen and alpha action x and chieftain have better DPM,aim time and dispersion etc

[queen geyser]

Im not readin all of that, Joke ofc I read it, Idk what your point is, u basically saying that some tanks have some stats better then T32 and that tiger II has smaller weakspots vs standart which is true but yea, I think 0 people fire standart at the Tiger II in order to pen it so idk what ur on about, u can ofc just give a list of tanks that have one or two stats better (and other stuff worse) then T32 but that bascially says nothin, it aint saying a point, at this point u can also say that the Maus is better then insert random tier X heavy because it has more HP

In reality you need to compare all stats if you take comparison with a tank and keep in mind his playstyle and his "role" its suppose to ake, which you dont do

ALSO people who say "a tank is fine" and right after that suggests buffs out of no reason are kinda coping ngl

[main tulip]

Ah yes, the 2mm more pen that the VK 100 has makes it so much better.

And when T32 is hulldown and using gun depression, it has literally zero weakspots. The "exploitable weakspots" you are talking about is just the lower plate, which almost every tank has bar the Tiger II and 268/4. You keep bringing up the Tiger II as something that has less weakspots, which is stupid because it is by design an exception to the norm.

[thorny timber]

Not even worth arguing about it and about the weakspots you cannot see,check the mm value on these spots in the Armor inspector keep how much every distance you wish as and try reconsider it again,remember that a jack of all trades is a master of none.

It's fairly easy to pen compared to the smaller hatchets and mantlets that exist in t8 although only people who can actually analyse the spots can see it,i don't know about the average t8 player but if they can't see it then it's the player's issue,not the tank's

[main tulip]

right, and how many times have you been penned there, or have you failed to pen a shot that you would've penned with 220 pen instead of 218?

pretty much never. Also T32 is a master of hulldown, not a jack of all trades lol. Although it might as well be with the upper plate buff

All you do is compare the T32 to a terrible example (Tiger II) while ignoring the fact that its penetration deficit to the numerical average is almost completely negligible, and that almost every heavy tank has a weak lower plate and cupola, without the incredible strengths that the T32 brings.

[thorny timber]

I'd like to hear almighty strengths that T32 has that other tanks already encountering it don't have,all of the strengths that you mention are just personal opinions and not everyone is gonna play that way hence t32 is not broken or even close to it,it's just a hulldown t8 with a trade in almost every aspect

@main tulip that,ultimately makes it a hulldown heavy which i already mentioned earlier

[burnt venture]

I fail to see how what is considered the strongest hulldown tank in the game is anywhere close to being average when it's weaknesses which held it back (pen, hull armor) are basically nonexistent after buffs.

The tank has normal pen, with 265mm APCR, and the upper plate is amazing as well as the turret. It also has 2000+ HP at a tier where most tanks don't even get close. It's far from being average

[main tulip]

1. It has functionally the best turret in tier 8. Every tank with an (arguably) stronger turret, like the IS-3, has far less gun depression to make use of it.
2. It's a heavy tank with a massively overly inflated HP pool + sandbag armor.
3. It has an incredibly easy to use profile - decently low hull and frontally mounted turret, and its upper plate is good enough to bounce equal and lower tier heavies with ease thanks to the needless buffs it's got. The frontal hull is overall harder to pen than most IS-style tanks, frankly.

The turret is literally stronger than the E5's, lol. Even the sides can be a little troll, at 197mm

@thorny timber It's also something I mentioned: "T32 is a master of hulldown, not a jack of all trades lol." But hulldown is the meta, and the T32 is exceedingly good at it, while also having a decent upper plate on flat ground, which makes it broken overall.

If anything, the Tiger II is a decent shout as a jack of all trades.

[thorny timber]

Understandable,have a great day

[stone drum]

AMX CDA 105 could use a top speed Buff. The armour is troll, but not reliable, and the gun is just underwhelming due to its bloom.
However if it just had like 55kph top speed that would be enough to allow it to outposition basically every TD it would encounter, thus making up for its flaws.

[nocturne mauve]

Just nerf heavies

[twin egret]

It should be given the 2 shell autoreloader

[remote blaze]

This will change it completely and i fine with that

[long light]

It wont happen anyway

[stuck acorn]

It had 2 shell autoloader when it first entered super test. It was a complete disaster though, so they abandoned this idea and created this thing we have today

[twin egret]

Autoloader or autoreloader

[vestal kayak]

What do y’all think of the the action X?

[remote blaze]

Very sold tank. Only low alpha shot