lore-and-universe

[carmine sleet]

They can do it

[tight badge]

Imagine this you are the gravemind one of the most powerful fictional hiveminds only second to the tyranids and a single sea urchin kills you

[wispy pewter]

I only have time to eat out

[tight badge]

Like makes you totally extinct not even the forerunners could do

[wispy pewter]

So it mentions Nervous system and does not directly mention its specifically to be a central nervous system

Since I assume it has to kill all the food of the flood, animals included

[tight badge]

The flood infects by latching onto the spine

“The process of infection begins with host contact. Tentacles protruding from its body penetrate the skin, and attempt direct communication with the host's spinal cord.”

[wispy pewter]

Maybe the Harbinger is a sponge

[tight badge]

Okay?

The endless arent immune to the flood

Theyre immune to halo

[carmine sleet]

Also based on the concept art, the Endless are more likely to be starfish-like

Like, it's not anything set in stone but looking at the concept art, it's pretty clear they looked at starfish for the art of one with their limbs spread out

[ionic tiger]

Edge of Dawn has some things to say about that interestingly enough.

[carmine sleet]

Aye, I have read it

[unborn patrol]

Idk how much weight Id put on the concept artwork. The harbinger doesnt really look anything alike

[carmine sleet]

I did say it wasn't anything set in stone

[unborn patrol]

Never said you didnt

Gonna get blocked by them if you keep correcting them 😭

(Please continue)

But such a confusing bit of lore + potentially bad narrators

[minor sky]

I can't find any info on this

[small path]

Though they do worship Abaddon, who is arguably the single most important precursor 'artifact' in franchise (aside from the actual domain itself I guess)

And I very much doubt he's dead, especially considering they went to the trouble of making a pretty eleborate character design

[unique rune]

up until the point where the Flood just kills them and uses the body for biomass, sure

pretty much any carbon-based life is susceptible to the Flood because the Flood can just "eat" them, nervous system be damned

[warm ridge]

Already am. Trench has purely hated me since like 2019?

[unborn patrol]

lmao theyve blocked you and still read your messages? thats crazy work

[unborn patrol]

but yea they have a habit of doing that

[warm ridge]

Even to the Endless, Abaddon has seemingly "vanished". As in, he doesn't appear to have any contact with them anymore.
It's implied they "lost connection" with him after the Halo rings fired, although Abandon was still very much alive next to his core.

After said deadbolt key was inserted to restart the Domain, he perma vanished so 🤷

[small path]

I doubt it'll be forever tbh

I don't really think much can kill him, even after being damaged by the array

At least, I doubt the deadbolt key did the job

Whether he's actually active somewhere or needs reviving or whatever idk

But he's defo not fully gone imo, especially since they went to the effort of making a full design for him

[warm ridge]

He's currently not active anywhere from what we know.

[warm ridge]

They've made full designs for plenty of things that never get seen again (and are even confirmed dead), this isn't that surprising & you shouldn't be pushing so much thought into it.

Encyclopedia (2022) is full of them. From ship designs, armor, enemies, species, etc.

Also the "design" we saw was basically concept art, if we ever see him again his appearance will probably change to some extent.

[empty bloom]

I actually had Nighterlev unblocked for a while until last night because he's one of my moderators in r/Haloinfinite (Who I'm frankly not petty enough to kick from the job since otherwise it'd just be me), I just tend to block people when they're either being bad actors or being annoying again, and usually I unblock them when they stop annoying me.

Which is why you're usually blocked for me, because you've never been acting in good faith.

Nighterlev's consistently wrong with his theories, and I'm not the only to call that out; That you laser focus on it somehow solely being a me problem is why I consider you to be a consistent bad actor. Not sure what I really did to be your boogeyman, but it's kinda pathetic, tbh.

[unborn patrol]

in good faith? girl Ive been correcting your behaviour

whats pathetic is your behaviour at times. Im quite frankly astonished you havent been banned for the things you do here at times

I got blocked by you because I called out your behaviour. youre a child

behaviour which you got put on mute for by moderation

(so clearly not in bad faith) (happened multiple times)

[unborn patrol]

I think the issue with developing lore while developing a game is that theres so much design work that happens through development and game dev is a rare bit of art where we often get to see what things were during development. typically only see finished product if its something like a book

so this hashing out of designs is just a part of the process for any medium but for whatever reason we get to see that with game dev

[boreal bane]

Can we leave outside drama at the door, please? There's no need to bring it in here. Doesn't matter who brings it up, don't continue it

[small path]

Lore is there to be thought about tbh

[warm ridge]

I'm not saying Abaddon won't return somehow, but relying on a "new design" for him being shown off isn't the best argument to have.

Especially when the next time we do see him, I'm 100% confident his "design" will be slightly altered / changed / different somehow.

[unborn patrol]

not to continue but to clarify that this is drama from here

[boreal bane]

I really don't where where it's from, but earlier it was explicitly referenced from outside the server - which has no place here

[empty bloom]

[small path]

That's just one reason tbh. The entire thing is a Chekhov's gun atp, if they don't actually do anything with Abaddon atp it's arguably just bad writing

[unborn patrol]

what? where?

[boreal bane]

We're not discussing it any further

[empty bloom]

I'm more willing than usual to forgive slapdash writing considering we know that 343's writing team and such have been gutted since Halo Wars 2's DLCs multiple times.

[small path]

It's just a shame that there's so much high quality material that exists exclusively in books

[empty bloom]

That said, Abaddon being forgotten would be a shame if there's no payoff.

[unborn patrol]

yeah I think putting it under the rug usually helps

[empty bloom]

I just now realized that your pfp is a giant rainbow afro and I love it.

[small path]

They 100% put thought into his design being similar to the Harbinger, so I'd be surprised if it wasn't on the cards. At least at some point

[empty bloom]

I suppose I'm just worried he'll get backburnered like a lot of other plots.

I'll be sore about the Created crisis for a while for a similar reason.

[small path]

Abaddon is a good candidate for a new super big threat ngl

And a way for them to inject at least a small bit of Precursor mystery into the game

Since they can't really supply any sort of mystery using forerunners anymore

At least not like how they used to

[vagrant ocean]

Abaddon appears to have been “imprisoned” after the Forerunner exiles restarted the domain.

[empty bloom]

Eh, I think Halo might be better served with the mystery being things we still don't know, like talking more about the more esoteric half of the Forerunners.

[vagrant ocean]

Or more info about the Ancestors.

[small path]

I guess the endless might try and revive/ release him at some point

[vagrant ocean]

That would require them to find Maethrillian.

[small path]

I wonder how hard that would actually be for them to do

[empty bloom]

I could see potential in something like the Interstellar Players series from Battletech but in Halo

If Halo had an official RPG anyways

[small path]

As an aside, the flood are currently scanning for something right?

In the Halloween lore

[vagrant ocean]

Extremely. It’s been 100,000 years and there’s no indication that anyone has found it.

[empty bloom]

To the uninitiated, Interstellar Players offers hints of in-universe rumors, true or not, about in-universe events; From half-answering mysteries about the intricacies of FTL travel to government conspiracies.

Thus adding a deeper element of background mystery while providing enough answers for plot hooks.

[vagrant ocean]

I feel like that’d be too close to 40k’s whole thing of everything is basically a half-remembered truth or an outright lie.

[small path]

I guess there's always the possibility that the endless would know to look for something we don't, especially since they have at least some level of understanding of Abaddon

[empty bloom]

'Too close' is relative. Halo isn't that concrete itself.

[vagrant ocean]

It’s more concrete than the shifting quicksand that is 40k tbf.

[empty bloom]

Which is why I use the Interstellar Players example-the actual scenario is concrete, it's more about worldbuilding with mystery.

Less 'spooky bermuda triangle book' and more 'We don't know exactly what happened here, but here's the in universe theories'. It takes itself more seriously and concrete.

[small path]

Us+ Offensive Bias vs Abaddon and the Endless would be so cool

[vagrant ocean]

I do however kinda like the idea that they introduced with the original batch of ORION files that due to the amount of time having passed they’re basically unreadable as a way to not engage in deeper discussion of stuff pre-Shaw-Fujikawa.

[empty bloom]

There was a recent thing they did where a Spartan and a few Scientists were getting mind controlled by Forerunner tech and were sort of 'losing themselves' to it. A large book about events like that would be nice.

[vagrant ocean]

Tulpamancy? Lowkey that was what REALLY sparked my obsession with Archaeohomina.

[empty bloom]

Yeah.

I should switch back to my desktop so I stop making spelling mistakes.

[vagrant ocean]

I love the implication that there could be a treasure trove of Ancestor tech that is probably fully or even mostly operational.

However the Hellcat armor’s lore prolly bugs you because it plays into the IIs having special genetics.

[empty bloom]

Sometimes, yeah.

But that's more just a hatred of eugenicist crap

And, y'know, knowing how genetics works

[vagrant ocean]

I feel you, but lowkey Eric wrote us into a corner with that.

[empty bloom]

Which is why I'm critical of his writing!

And you can write around it by having people be critical of it in-universe!

Unlike what fanbases tend to think, science isn't static!

[vagrant ocean]

I’d love more lore on other super soldier programs, specifically JAVELIN.

[warm ridge]

Incredibly difficult, considering the only ships they seemingly have access to are Banished ones (assuming they manage to get off of Zeta Halo at all in a sizable amount).

[warm ridge]

The Flood is trying to find another Gravemind, due to being perma trapped on a planet it can't escape from.

[empty bloom]

I like to think that JAVELIN and co were more mechanical augmentations instead of biological and chemical

[warm ridge]

It could come up again if the Janus Key / Absolute Record ever comes back, but that's probably never going to.

[warm ridge]

A lot of Halo lore in general does. Reclaimers being specific humans and all to.

[vagrant ocean]

I think it might be some sort of cheap (even by Spartan-III standards) biological augmentation. Halsey could tell by movement alone that they were augmented, and I doubt a suitable mechanical augmentation could be made that would let a person handle MJÖLNIR without being turned into salsa.

[warm ridge]

I doubt this.

We know ONI for example has there own Spartans outside of both the S-II and S-III programs that were created at some point.

[vagrant ocean]

Tbf with how little info we have on the project (literally TWO mentions in 15 years) your guess can’t be much better.

[warm ridge]

If anything it's probably related to just this, ONI shenanigans, special MJOLNIR ONI armor, all that stuff.

[empty bloom]

Eh, the thing with projects like that is they work in bursts concurrently. A lot of IV augs don't really have II or III equivelants, and they still had to start somewhere.

It's better to think of science as an evolving ecosystem than a video game tech tree. There's a lot of things serving multiple roles and being consumed mindlessly, or winning by luck, et cetera.

Like one of the reasons I consider Halsey to be a crappy person is because she put her thumb on the scale constantly instead of letting projects live or die on their own, which is analagous to outside pressures and internal pressures driving a species to extinction, to continue the analogy or metaphor or whatever you'd like to call this.

[warm ridge]

S-IV augs are hard to describe properly because there's 2 different versions of them.

The Ilsa Zane augmentations, and the S-IV augmentations. They aren't the same.

Iisa Zane augs were meant to create Spartans that didn't need MJOLNIR armor to function. Quite literally the strongest Spartans in existence, if none of them but Ilsa Zane didn't die from the augmentations anyways.

[empty bloom]

In the case of Spartans and mechanics; Something had to be the source of mechanical prosthetics capable of matching Spartan armor, something had to inspire the concept of Spartans who didn't need MJOLNIR, and something had to source the new implants of the IVs.

And it doesn't necessarily have to be Spartans that are the source of all of that-if anything it'd make less sense.

[vagrant ocean]

Tbf to Halsey, she operated with virtually ZERO oversight, so a hyper intelligent narcissist is bound to tip the scales on projects she personally finds valuable.

[empty bloom]

Well, yeah, as I said, it's part of why I don't like her lmao

Never said that part was bad writing

[vagrant ocean]

Oh I know

Just saying that her worst attributes could’ve been managed had they actually kept an eye on her,

[empty bloom]

UNSC in general at the time of Halsey's primary position of power was kinda giving off 'Empire in decline' type vibes, considering they were trying to take holdings back solely via force and ruling via incompetent leadership such as Halsey.

[vagrant ocean]

Halsey as an “engineer” is unrivaled, she is not a good leader.

I will grant that.

[empty bloom]

I'd say the IIs turned out as good as they did in spite of her actions, not because of them, in the park of Spartan-making sense at any rate.

[vagrant ocean]

My biggest issue with a lot of the stuff surrounding her is authors putting damn near all the blame on her, and not the people who hired her and even promoted her. Or the people who worked alongside her who were just as horrible (a certain Petty Officer who enjoys cigars comes to mind).

[empty bloom]

I do but don't see the issue.

Halsey is also the most-and frankly only-verbally proud one about it.

Mendez deserves penalties but like, Halsey's the only character we see who is downright glad she did it most of the time when pushed.

At least, externally, she admits internal guilt once or twice

[vagrant ocean]

That’s to be expected from a hyper intelligent narcissist whose creations saved mankind.

[empty bloom]

And in any just universe she'd keep getting dragged til the lesson sticks, tbh.

Like, Halsey pretending to be dead was problably one of the happiest days of Parangosky's life

"You mean I can actually punish this jerk for once? HAHAHA, FINALLY"

[vagrant ocean]

I think the external pride is her playing the part of the monster people see her as. I have no doubt that Halsey deep down regrets a lot of the things done to the candidates, because despite what anyone, even herself thinks, she’s still human. I just feel she pushes those feelings down because “there is work to be done”.

[empty bloom]

What's funny is, that'd actually be an inaccurate way to portray dark triad style narcissism

As a staggering lack of repentance is generally the case

Of course, Halsey's also heavily motivating her faux selflessness as an expression of her narcissism

Like, it's incredibly easy to play off Spartan IIs as being a selfless sacrifice of your talent and morality when you aren't the one personally getting shot in the face by rebel bullets and Covenant plasma after being raised in a pseudo-agoge.

[vagrant ocean]

I guess something is broken in my brain, maybe it’s my borderline diehard utilitarianism, but I don’t think I’ll see Halsey as much of a monster as people think she is.

[ionic tiger]

Her regret is what motivated her to hightail it to Onyx and her efforts to lure Blue Team in with her.

Still massively selfish when you break it down, but she’d long abandoned the ideology that guided her during the SII program.

[empty bloom]

Yeah, that's actually one of the reasons I take such stock in Cortana adopting Halseyism in 5. Cortana came from a time where she had not entirely abandoned the ideology but absolutely had it on her mind.

[modest marsh]

there's some implied things here and there may indicate that some IV augs were retroactively applied to IIs and IIIs

[unborn patrol]

hopefully we wont see this out of the Weapon

[minor sky]

It isn't coincidental that Abbadon looks like a Guardian, right?

[empty bloom]

(As a random aside, I wonder what canon reasons they'd have to slap Seeker on Mark Vb)

[modest marsh]

i do think you could maybe argue this goes hand in hand with "augmentation maintenance" being a thing

[empty bloom]

I'm still kinda convinced that the fanbase takes Augmentation Maintenance in a really weird direction that isn't really accurate nor reasonable.

[modest marsh]

i recall some Halo Wars 1 lore for the spartan hijack speed upgrade being justified as an improvement to their neural interface

[empty bloom]

Like, you do a lot to make a Spartan, you should maintain your augs like a normal human gets checked out for cancer.

[ionic tiger]

Eh, I think Halsey had long felt those old excuses weren’t valid long before 2549. I don’t think she had a massive change of heart in the span of 3 years.

[vagrant ocean]

A lot can happen in 3 years.

[unborn patrol]

idk have we figured out transplants that well by this point? people with organ transplants have to be on medication and more than regular checks. and thats with nothing major compared to what the spartans have

[empty bloom]

I tend to think of people as largely being irrational mostly because... Well, shrugs broadly at the current world.

I view Halsey's mindset on her Spartans as not being entirely set in stone, with her end actions being where her actual philosophy ended up settling, and largely being something she would've been ruminating on a lot when things got quiet.

Considering how much work she was doing-good and bad, self-serving and 'selfless'-I wager she was actively trying not to change her excuse rhetoric until she had to, valid or otherwise.

Even the most logic-driven people (And Halsey is someone I'd hesitate to call logic-driven) have the opportunity to present a bias in their excuse, even if they aren't actually all that in line with reality or even how they'd normally think.

[modest marsh]

organ transplants are more or less treated as nbd in setting in the halo universe, even for spartans

[minor sky]

Is this ever mentioned anywhere?

[empty bloom]

IIRC the new print Encylopedia mentions it.

[minor sky]

Because I look at the design and just think "Fleshy Guardian"

[modest marsh]

its mostly nerve structures that are uniquely difficult

[unborn patrol]

should be for the spartans to not be in the garage after every deployment like a Peugeot

[minor sky]

I'll take a look when I am able to

[empty bloom]

Hell, I'm pretty sure Halsey just spot-clones a new achilles for one of the IIs in what's basically a broken down lab.

Or was it a kidney?

[modest marsh]

ive thought a lot about how spartans probably rely on an unhealthy and arguably dangerous amount of pharmaceuticals such as painkillers and stimulants to stay functional

[unborn patrol]

I hope not but thatd be dark and realistic

[empty bloom]

GEN2 Recruit is explicitly noted as being what Spartan IVs tend to start wearing as it has an extra suite of medical equipment to ensure a IV's augs don't go haywire before they 'stabilize', I'd say this checks out tbh.

I wager it takes years for most augs to be stable instead of metastable.

[modest marsh]

their accelerated metabolism would likely mean their dose would have to be excessively high and persistently administered to achieve the desired effect, but that would strain their body's detoxification capacity immensely

[vagrant ocean]

Maybe later in the war, but I have a feeling that Red Team doesn’t really need those given their age. But then again they were all rehabs so they might need some sort of stabilizer.

[modest marsh]

thats on top of all the waste chemicals their bodies would be producing from all of the strenous activity they're doing

[vagrant ocean]

Imagine how succulent a Spartan liver is.

[unborn patrol]

I imagine they have the detox figured out by now

[modest marsh]

im sure there's mitigating measures in place, but still, being constantly given an insane cocktail of drugs to stay functional is gonna do some damage over time, so throwing out your liver and kidneys in exchange for a new one might be the better option

[empty bloom]

That's actually one of the key parts of IV augs.

[modest marsh]

yeah, like i said, i feel like thats something they may just retroactively apply to IIs and IIIs

[empty bloom]

Specifically, they biofabricate a new suite of organs, but only specifically mention the lungs and pancreas.

[unborn patrol]

I imagine they do change those like tires on a car especially with how good we are at switching them out already

[empty bloom]

The Pancreas itself is replaced with an entirely new organ, which... I don't know why you wouldn't just call it Pancreas II; Electric Boogaloo.

I also kinda have a knee-jerk thought of the bioreactor also pulling double duty as being connected with the waste system in general

Like, to include 'burning away' things like lactic acid buildup if possible, kind of like a sort of third kidney or liver type deal.

[modest marsh]

i do wonder what they do with the appendix since in theory thats a structure they could turn into something more useful

gut microbiome research is still such a new field, its kinda funny to think we thought that it was a vestigial organ until recently

[empty bloom]

(I already figured the bioreactor was to basically burn everything else that the body can't digest, which means IVs and the Dictator of North Korea have something in common)

[fading flume]

Well, that’s certainly a connection you made

[unborn patrol]

lmao

[empty bloom]

NGL, gut biome stuff is still some of the most fascinating stuff I've looked at. The fact it's pretty much known at this point to directly affect your mental state if your gut fauna is out of whack is pretty cool.

[unborn patrol]

gut brain connection is insane stuff

[fading flume]

always trust your gut

[empty bloom]

I mean, there's not a lot ofother reasons to have it when your intestines are already explicitly able to handle eating a damn tree.

[empty bloom]

NGL, I always hated that saying, lmao.

[fading flume]

What’s really interesting is also considering how modernized our food is. Now when you have animals like elephants scarfing down entire trees, or prehistoric predators taking hundreds of pounds of flesh and bone in a single bite, it just goes to show you the power of the inside.

[empty bloom]

"Thinking with" or "Trusting" an organ explicitly filled with crap just sounds like a bad call.

[fading flume]

The diamond in the rough. Through all that crap, you will make a genius decision at least once

[empty bloom]

I mean, maybe if you accidentally swallow a diamond ring or something

[fading flume]

If someone ever did swallow a diamond (someone most certainly has), I can’t help but think how boggling of a decision it is for them to either search or not to search for it

[empty bloom]

It was a plot point in Two and a Half men IIRC

[warm ridge]

Don't believe that's the case.
I believe all augmentation require nonstop maintenance, otherwise they begin regressing.

This has kind of been seen already in Halo lore with certain Spartans becoming civilians afaik. They're still strong yes, but Spartan strong?
Probably not.

This applies IRL to, body builders, etc

[modest marsh]

one of the procedures listed under the circulatory and metabollic improvements section for ORCHID includes a "K5.2 Hemoescutcheon" which is latin for "blood shield", which makes me wonder if theres some sort of nanomaterial applied directly to the blood cells somehow that makes them more resilient or resistant to intoxicants

[warm ridge]

If a Spartan doesn't receive "maintenance", things simply begin regressing is how I take it.

Like suddenly becoming overweight because you don't exercise enough. Muscle atrophy, etc.

[modest marsh]

my mind goes to the crysis cutscene where you see the little nanobots adhere to the blood cells

[fading flume]

Within the context of halo lore? At least for the IIs, Chief’s been moving like an absolute demon for who knows how long without any maintenance.

[empty bloom]

Assuming that was a forward-carrying aug, it takes what sounds like a full fifth of Whiskey for Solomon to even feel anything due to it.

[empty bloom]

Which is why I think that the aug maintenance is technically optional in the way that avoiding a cancer screening is 'optional'.

[modest marsh]

this may also help explain how they're also more resistant to vacuum exposure? because the pressure loss and whatnot should have immediate effects at the cellular level

[warm ridge]

Not true. Anytime he's been in direct contact with the UNSC he's received maintenance.

Especially when the Infinity found him, he was fully checked out afaik

[empty bloom]

Then again, Solomon is also a drinker and is nearly 7 feet tall and over 200 pounds.

[modest marsh]

i think that would fall under them having a faster than normal metabolism

[warm ridge]

You forget that in Chief's head, the events of Halo Combat Evolved happened like 3 months ago by the time Halo 4 starts. @fading flume

[modest marsh]

the alcohol would be digested and converted into energy relatively quickly anyways

[fading flume]

Sparsely in-between his numerous missions that have put him to the limit. If nothing explicitly states they have to have maintenance, then it’s up in the air

[empty bloom]

Wonder if the 'shield' would work for blood agents.

[warm ridge]

Idk what makes you think it's sparsely.

They just need a few hours, probably even a hour. Nothing that'd take them an entire day or week to do.

[fading flume]

What did I forget? I said absolutely nothing on the matter of Combat evolved. If anything, I’m referring to Chief’s battles on Zeta in Infinite and EoD.

[warm ridge]

Again, in Chief's mind the events of Halo Infinite all happen in a single day. 2 days tops.

[fading flume]

Because Chief’s deployments last for decent amount of times? Besides, nothing explicitly states he needs mandatory augmenting checkups

[modest marsh]

if we go off of shadows of reach, Spartans have a healing factor 10x faster than a normal human, and although injury recovering isn't 1:1 correlated with other biological processes, i think you can reasonably infer that they would occur at a similar rate

[warm ridge]

That includes Edge of Dawn also btw

This isn't some "years long battle" lol

[fading flume]

So strawman?

I never said years long

Or implied a length of that time

[warm ridge]

Do you not know what people mean by maintenance? This isn't some "daily check ups after every battle".

Maintenance is like a check up every couple of months.

[modest marsh]

which is to say, in order to get drunk, James would have to outpace his body's healing factor at roughly 10x the rate of someone of his innate build and alcohol tolerance independent of any other advantages he may have

[fading flume]

You still haven’t proved it’s mandatory

So let’s see the scans

[modest marsh]

and if he does get drunk in the first place, it wouldnt last very long

[warm ridge]

No idea what you're talking about, assume your straw manning now.

[empty bloom]

I'll go check the passage rq. He explicitly drinks eight glasses and it's at a point where his vision is affected, but it's also just 'whiskey'. We don't know if Jimmy McRandombar is watering down his still.

[modest marsh]

realistically he'd be better off downing a full 40oz of everclear tbh

[fading flume]

How is that a strawman? I haven’t claimed you’ve said anything, I merely said you haven’t proved it’s mandatory (if they don’t get a check up, they’ll recess) and I asked for the scans

So a falsified fallacy

[warm ridge]

That's not how any of this works lmao

Yea, your straw manning

[empty bloom]

My bad, I was conflating it with a line of text from something else. It was actually six glasses of bourbon. Still, the watering down and whatnot is an option.

[fading flume]

Do you know what a strawman is? It’s falsifying an opponents argument to benefit yours. I’ve made zero arguments, and I’m asking you to show proof

That’s not a strawman lol

[warm ridge]

Which is what you're trying to do after I just had to explain the basic concepts of maintenance to you what

[empty bloom]

Start of Chapter 13 in Empty Throne.

[fading flume]

Maintenance doesn’t have to be fundamentally mandatory, I’m asking to see where it says that if they don’t get check ups, they’ll recess

[warm ridge]

Everyone here already knows Spartans require maintenance, this isn't some "unknown thing" that needs proof

[fading flume]

Whether it’s fundamental to their augments is what’s being discussed here

[empty bloom]

NGL, I think Buck would've literally had to buy an entire bar to get a full fireteam of IVs drunk at this rate lmao

[fading flume]

What’s there? Haven’t read empty throne

[empty bloom]

A Spartan's attempt to get drunk

[warm ridge]

It obviously is? Huh

[fading flume]

So is that where these nanobots come in?

[empty bloom]

Sure

[fading flume]

Doesn’t have to be. If it’s like irl dopping then yes, but I don’t recall seeing anything confirming that. I’d like specific confirmation from a source, that would satisfy me.

[warm ridge]

We're discussing why they need it, not "if they require it".

You're going in circles and trying to disprove something that never happened. Aka straw manning. This is literally a useless argument lol

[modest marsh]

its entirely possible that drinking for IVs is entirely ritualistic/social and they do not actually intend to become intoxicated

James specifically is trying to get extremely drunk

pounding straight vodka might give IVs the equivalent of a buzz from drinking a few beers

[warm ridge]

Afaik some Spartans just like the taste of it.

Why a bar exist on the Infinity

[empty bloom]

Ugh. Even at my worst I can't imagine chugging straight vodka.

[fading flume]

I mean, that’s not the impression I got (my bad). Still, ain’t a strawman because all I’ve been doing is asking for evidence of a topic, it’s not like I’m using this idea to try and hinder you.

Like genuinely, what is their to confirm they need maintenance like doping

That’s now my question

[warm ridge]

Someone else can do that. I just brought a hypothetical on why they might need it. Which is what everyone here was talking about.

Not directly confirmed "this is 100% true" which you completely misunderstood then started acting as if the maintenance isn't a confirmed thing for whatever reason.

[fading flume]

I was never denying the existence of maintenance (although I was curious about the frequency), I was curious as to if it’s as vital to someone as repeated dopping, and without it if they would indeed recess greatly

[modest marsh]

going off some napkin math, to reach the equivalent of .08% BAC a Spartan would have to have consumed roughly 200g of ethanol in less than an hour, which i think you might be approaching if its legit full glasses of 40% bourbon

thats going off a lot of assumptions though

[empty bloom]

The same passage does mention this is apparently frequent enough to be considered a problem.

[modest marsh]

its like, enough that it would be eyebrow raising but still technically feasible for a normal person to consume and not die from it

[stoic hamlet]

I think I’d just die, lol

Though I’m a whisky man, so…

[empty bloom]

There was a point in my life where I'd be able to drink an iceless glass of pink whitney straight but in hindsight that was not a good point in my life.

[rare moat]

There any books/comics on Noble Team/Noble 6 before Reach?

[unique rune]

no

closest thing is the short story "Winter Contention" that was posted onto Waypoint

[vagrant ocean]

Once upon a time I could drink a pint of jager straight in a single night.

[minor sky]

Seeing you say this makes me realize how crazy that is

You'd think they'd capitalize on those characters' popularity more

Especially with how hard 343i has glazed Halo Reach and Reach-adjacent iconography

[vagrant ocean]

Let’s be fr. NOBLE is only popular because half the fanbase were teens when the game dropped and half of them never grew beyond it.

[minor sky]

I mean, you aren't entirely wrong

But also they just look cool

Like Boba Fett in the original trilogy. Cool looking characters who do cool things, not much depth beyond that

I do feel like some fans oversell how underwritten they actually are

[empty bloom]

Real!

[minor sky]

They aren't blank slates or devoid of interesting or good moments

It has been roughly a year since I played through all of Reach, but I do remember Noble Team feeling like they had a lot more personality or interesting moments

[vagrant ocean]

You feel that way because Bungie struggled to write characters with any depth deeper than a puddle.

[minor sky]

Idk, Joseph Staten was pretty good about fleshing out characters

Of course, he didn't write 3 or Reach and it shows

Halo 3 just straight up didn't have a writer

[versed helm]

That explains so much tbh

[modest marsh]

I don’t think “appeals to kids/teens” is a reason to dismiss the merits tbf

[vagrant ocean]

I’m not writing it off, I’m saying that the characters are mainly beloved due to nostalgia, not from actually being good characters.

[versed helm]

I always felt 3 and Reach were far weaker stories. But ive said this a million times before, people like Reach cuz it feels like a sad war documentary. Same reason why people like Star Wars Rogue One

[minor sky]

I'd say they were "good enough" characters

Not exceptional

[vagrant ocean]

Of the Bungie games 3 is 100% the weakest.

[minor sky]

But perfectly servicable

[minor sky]

It is a story running entirely on vibes

[vagrant ocean]

“Yall have any good writing?”

‘We have hype moments and aura’

[modest marsh]

Halo is action figures/power rangers with a grittier military aesthetic so it really shouldn’t be surprising that aspects which mostly adhere to that premise are the ones that drive a lot of the attachment that people have

[versed helm]

It does have seriously memorable moments tho. Especially the end, with chief nearly dying and that iconic shot of him climbing up to cortana. It works as an epic blockbluster movie moment for the game

[minor sky]

Maybe that is an over-exaggeration

[empty bloom]

Excuse me the only power rangers that exist in Halo are Halo 4 and Halo 5 Spartans

[vagrant ocean]

As Halo fan I’ve come to despise the word “iconic”. But that’s due to the community more than anything.

[unique rune]

3 has some moments but it's pretty horribly paced and mostly coasts off of distracting you with big explosions every other level

[empty bloom]

No I will not be taking corrections

[vagrant ocean]

Back when Spartans had DUMPTRUCKS

[minor sky]

There are still some good moments or meaty pieces of dialogue, but it was a definite step down from 2

[versed helm]

Hiddenexpyria moment 🙂‍↕️

[modest marsh]

It’s such a weird criticism considering I distinctly remember a six your old maggruber thinking “wow this is just like power rangers but even cooler”

[empty bloom]

NGL I always found the power ranger comparison thing just... Weird. I hated Power Rangers growing up and even then I was at least sure to know what a damn Sentai suit looked like.

[vagrant ocean]

“Jethro the Were-Possum, you stand charged with treason against the UEG, you are sentenced to death. You may choose the manner of execution.”

‘I want Linda-058 to crush my skull with her thighs like a pumpkin.’

[modest marsh]

When SPD came out I was like holy fuuuuuuuck

[empty bloom]

What I don't get is like, I don't even get a sentai suit thing out of Halo. I get colorful Crysis vibes.

[unique rune]

the weird insecure teenagers grew up to become weird insecure manchildren

[vagrant ocean]

Fr. Looked closer to Kamen Rider than Sentai.

[minor sky]

Idk man they did have Hayabusa in Halo 3

[vagrant ocean]

Aka PEAK.

[empty bloom]

It's closer to a hybrid of Crysis and Metal Gear. MJOLNIR GEN2's base suit especially.

[versed helm]

I do miss back when spartans had more visibly distinct body types tho

[empty bloom]

Like it isn't a coincidence that the Mantis looks like a GEKKO.

[versed helm]

I wouldve liked them to add one like jorge's giant mountain man build

[vagrant ocean]

Honestly I like the idea behind GEN2 being a baseline tech suit and all the armor types and their software being the variants and not just addons to the armor.

[unique rune]

I think the influences are definitely there but I think GEN2 designs do have a lot in common with like, Metal Hero and Heisei p1 Kamen Rider suits just because they're made with more wearability and range of motion in mind while still having the armor-plated look

[minor sky]

[vagrant ocean]

Almost as if in the post-war era Spartans were actual operators and not just walking tanks.

[empty bloom]

It's almost as though someone in 343i's staff remembered a human has to wear these things.

Like IDK if you've ever talked to a cosplayer but the ol space diaper is not easy to wear and sit in

[vagrant ocean]

“No Bungo was better cuz it looked sick”

[unique rune]

people will complain about the lack of space diaper but the thigh armor would be ramming into that thing any time they wanted to run anywhere lol

[modest marsh]

I think it’s worth noting that Spartans having “distinct body types” was a retcon specifically to accommodate Reach’s design philosophy that was premised off a team of Spartans with distinct personalities and tactical roles as a direct contrast to what came before

[vagrant ocean]

I regret nothing.

[modest marsh]

(And they were prototyping for Destiny probably)

[versed helm]

Rule of cool matters. This is fiction after all so thats why most fans prefer the more tank like spartan 2s and 3s. Being "realistic" is not an objective positive choice

[vagrant ocean]

What a corpse of a franchise.

[empty bloom]

The staff would be mad at me if I went on a massive tear about how much I hate how gendered the world of gaming is. Like, almost all this crap is downflow from gamergate, and as someone who loves their gender studies, it's like a rosetta stone for understanding a lot of aesthetic discourse.

[vagrant ocean]

A balance is better.

[minor sky]

It does create an issue with how they handled customization. While Halo 4 did carry over, and even expand, Halo Reach's armor customization; the armors just didn't really work with it.
The GEN 2 armors were basically built as a set rather than being something to mix and match. I mean, look at the armor skins, those things are really only made to exist with the other armors in their class

[modest marsh]

Spartans were originally imagined as cyborg clones with body proportions that weren’t even necessarily supposed to look natural, let alone have phenotypical traits associated with a particular gender

[versed helm]

That requires compromise which tends to muddy things. It also hasnt really been done properly before, Infinite is pretty much just Reach spartans again, but with some wild looking armor pieces and tech suit designs

[vagrant ocean]

Lowkey the main reasons why Linda is my favorite is because she’s an awesome sniper with amazingly designed armor. The fact that she’s also hot as hell is just a bonus to me.

[empty bloom]

I think a lot of that issue is also that people forget that humans are also like. The same species.

It's why transgender hormones work. We're the same damn species, gender and chromosomes are barely relevant compared to the human body plan.

[versed helm]

Nothing wrong with that. Best retcon tbh

[vagrant ocean]

Argus is unironically one of my favorite sets.

[modest marsh]

I’m not for or against it as it’s a matter of artistic utility for whatever is most appropriate for the game or project

[empty bloom]

Like, you pump a Spartan with the hormone therapy and whatnot they get from their augs and they're largely not going to be that different.

Hell, IVs literally get hormone stabilization as an augmentation.

[modest marsh]

In some ways the idea is still preserved but it varies between depictions and halo vaguely runs with the idea that every artistic interpretation is also a canonical representation of the canon in some way

Which is why concept art and scrapped content is constantly being canonized

[vagrant ocean]

Anyways, I lowkey am not a fan of many of the main criticism for the current Halo era being nostalgia based or just based on a lack of media literacy.

[vagrant ocean]

Best thing HS has done btw imo.

[empty bloom]

Oh, I hate it with a visceral passion to the point of considering the franchise as a microcosm of everything I hate about the modern media landscape.

Like, that's half the reason I fight about this crap like a raccoon fighting for the last bread scrap in the dumpster.

[vagrant ocean]

And if you even TRY to say something positive you’re called a consoomer or a drone.

[wispy pewter]

Say what you want about Halo 4 and 5 but the Spartans looked good

[empty bloom]

Not gonna lie I thought you were gonna say something else entirely there

[vagrant ocean]

“I like <insert thing here>”

‘Keep sucking down that corpo slop’

[vagrant ocean]

Who

Me?

[empty bloom]

Jean

[vagrant ocean]

Ah

Honestly the best aspects of 5 are the forge and the gameplay.

[empty bloom]

Can we like

Not

I don't want to beat the dead horse of 5 like that again and I know where this is going

[vagrant ocean]

It’s one of my favorite gameplay experiences.

Now if we want a good story? Halo 2 is the way to go baby.

Best sequel ever made.

The ESB of gaming.

[empty bloom]

There's a serious issue with media perception and a lot of it stems from the aformentioned lack of media literacy and attention given to products and reality.

[versed helm]

Halo 5's story really is an embarrassment. But i do love its multiplayer tbh

[wispy pewter]

Halo Infinite Spartan designs are so mid that not even the Osiris skins look like them anymore

[vagrant ocean]

The T2: Judgement Day of gaming.

[wispy pewter]

Like look at Vale. An imposter

[minor sky]

Also a major issue I had with GEN 2's designs was how much it strayed away from the "taticool" look. With one or two exceptions, the armors lacked a lot of combat gear or more specialized pieces of equipment.
Really, the vibe I got from a lot of GEN 2 designs was that they felt a lot less like they were made as practical pieces of armor and instead more just "cool design". That isn't a bad thing, Bungie also did that, but I think they were a bit more balanced with it.

[versed helm]

I honestly kinda wish the boost continued to be standard. Doom eternal has the boost and it rocks

[vagrant ocean]

Someone call Optican, I need new fingers.

[empty bloom]

Like, I'm someone who tends to be very analytical about what I intake. I'm going to be mad about me getting the type and amount of booze I stated as wrong when I was talking with @modest marsh about Solomon's booze intake for at least a day or two.

And by comparison, people are doing worse than me about that crap.

That's unacceptable. Absolutely unacceptable.

[unique rune]

I still just don't really like how samey the "tacticool" approach to armor designs ends up shaking out

[vagrant ocean]

I try to be as accurate as possible when I talk about lore, I even double check the wiki’s sources sometimes when info-dumping on my friends.

[modest marsh]

Lore wise or gameplay wise?

[unique rune]

like 80% of the helmets they've made for the Mk.IV core in Infinite basically just look the same

[empty bloom]

TBF, Mark IV is one of the single most complex designs Halo has ever had.

[versed helm]

Both? Tho id also wanna completely remove sprint, its stupid. Prioritize the boost more.

[empty bloom]

It's very greeble-heavy.

[dusk jetty]

Because they tend to just end up being variant of mark IV

[unique rune]

Reach's helmets have the same thing where they're all just minor variations of like four basic archetypes

[dusk jetty]

Or VI

[vagrant ocean]

Which makes sense lore wise.

[unique rune]

for all of H5 Seeker's faults it's

distinctive at least

I don't think it's cool or pretty but it's immediately recognizable and something different

[dusk jetty]

There’s a line between distinctive and weird

[empty bloom]

Seeker is unironically one of my favorite armors in the entire franchise, and a lot of it is because it has a design that actually follows form.

[modest marsh]

The jury’s still out on what relationship thrusters have with GEN1/GEN3 armor because depending on interpretation, they’re still integral to the armor but are less impactful without a specific external attachment

[empty bloom]

Like my love for Seeker is tangentially related to why I love every armor of Osiris.

[minor sky]

There was a video by "Suddenly Oranges" that came out not too long ago, reflecting on Halo 5 and they said something that really got me thinking. It was along the lines of "If Halo 5's campaign didn't drop the ball, Halo 5 would be the best Halo ever." And while I don't know if I entirely agree with that, I do think that 5 was super close

[modest marsh]

We’ve had more than a few depictions of unmodified mjolnir having integral thrusters, they’re just comparatively weak next to the Halo 5 depiction

[dusk jetty]

I don’t mind strange armor provided they are at least within the realm of halos general aesthetic, most of the fracture armors still are within that margin

[empty bloom]

It's a shame I'd rather rip out my fingernails with a pair of pliers than watch a video about Halo on my algorithm.

[vagrant ocean]

If H5 had as strong a story as H2 it would literally be a defining moment.

[vagrant ocean]

I just watch lore shorts. Literally nothing more than that.

[minor sky]

Uh-huh

[unique rune]

I have not had any reason to watch Halo Youtube after Halo Canon stopped making videos

[modest marsh]

Chief’s GEN3 armor specifically is implied to have EVA thrusters built in in the Memory Agent audio drama, but of course the game itself neglects showing or mentioning them

[dusk jetty]

I watch YouTubers who occasionally touch halo, I do not watch any exclusively halo tubers

[minor sky]

Yeah. I mean, I even said this the other day- if Halo 5's campaign didn't fall flat, Xbox probably would be in a very different place

[modest marsh]

(It’s possible they were rendered completely non-functional by the damage done by Atriox but I digress)

[versed helm]

Just be like "yep they customized and upgraded stuff". Im more concerned for it gameplay wise

[empty bloom]

Well, yeah, 5 kinda showed up right when Gamergate was at its peak and even the best storytelling was lambasted for stupid reasons at the time

[vagrant ocean]

What condiments do the Sangheili have?

[minor sky]

I'm sorry Trench, but Halo 5's story is not well written

[vagrant ocean]

Another thing about H5 was its visuals were FANTASTIC.

[modest marsh]

They probably have salt

[empty bloom]

I mean it's okay to be wrong about writing. Because the writing is fine, it's the pacing that's bad.

[vagrant ocean]

That’s a seasoning, not a condiment.

[modest marsh]

It might not be 1:1 table salt

[unique rune]

gamer girl bathwater

[empty bloom]

Oh god damn it all to hell, I am not getting into this.

[vagrant ocean]

Do you think the Arbiter has tried ketchup?

[empty bloom]

Does he know what a tomato is?

[vagrant ocean]

Is the Heinz tomato empire still active?

[empty bloom]

I doubt Sangheili are big on condiments tbh.

[unique rune]

they probably own a planet

[empty bloom]

They don't strike me as a culture very good about food. Unless they took Suban for the flavor of blamite on food.

[vagrant ocean]

I mean, decades of warfare and years trying to understand humanity could result in him sucking down a glizzy or two.

[empty bloom]

Ugh. That caused a visceral shudder of disgust.

[dusk jetty]

The sangheli probably are heavy on the stringy meat

[unique rune]

don't like that sentence at all

[vagrant ocean]

And this made me chuckle.

[dusk jetty]

They would like tilapia methinks

And game birds

[empty bloom]

I mean salt's gonna be common enough but we don't really have enough about Sangheili culinary culture to assume much beyond 'they know how to grow plants for food, including bread, and love meat'

[vagrant ocean]

Thel ‘Vadam visiting New York to scarf down a filthy sourkraut hot dog

[wispy pewter]

Humanity should introduce Burgers to Sanghelios

[dusk jetty]

Brutes would like red meat

[empty bloom]

... Then again, we also don't know what kind of bread they make, or if they ever discovered yeast or a local equivelant.

[unique rune]

Sanghelios-style pizza would probably upset Italians

[dusk jetty]

Brutes do like red meat actually

[wispy pewter]

Humans are not red meat

[vagrant ocean]

Oh if the UNSC is anything like the US military there is a Have S'Moa wherever the UNSCDF is.

[wispy pewter]

Oh we are

[dusk jetty]

Jackals would eat jerky

[empty bloom]

We could assume Elites know some method of fermentation-after all, they use alchohol and are apparently vulnerable to a lot of the same chemicals humans are, for better or for worse-but in terms of combining that with bread, I dunno. Maybe they love their flatbread.

[empty bloom]

Jackals canonically have a strong preference for aquatic foods.

[vagrant ocean]

Wait, you’re saying I can share a J with the Kaidon?

[wispy pewter]

Mayhaps Vale has a Burger King in her base or something

[dusk jetty]

They are pirates

[empty bloom]

Eh, I mean more like... Booze.

[dusk jetty]

They be scarfing they hardtack ye hear

[empty bloom]

I mean hardtack is actually pretty tasty IMO but then again, I love flatbread.

[minor sky]

5's story is a dead horse but I'll just leave my basic thoughts as
"Terrible pacing"
"Characters who don't get to do anything"
"Too many plot-points"
"Over reliance on things being told and not shown (often in baffling places"
And
"Doesn't really feel like a follow up to Halo 4 (this isn't entirely 5's fault)"

[vagrant ocean]

Well if they’re susceptible to the same chemicals that includes D9.

[empty bloom]

You can just say pot man

Weed, marijuana, mary jane

[vagrant ocean]

Wasn’t sure if the mods would hang me.

I’d share a J with some SoS members.

[wispy pewter]

Halo 5 bad because I said so.

[empty bloom]

Empty Throne talks about how UNSC doctors generally assume Elites might benefit from the same biological fixes as humans, because of a delivery of timely first aid.

[minor sky]

Actually, that second to last bit was really egregious in my last playthrough of 5.

[wispy pewter]

My rating for Halo 5 is a strict 6/7

[vagrant ocean]

Great, now I’m sad cuz I’m imagining a SoS member strung out on space morphine cuz of the war.

[minor sky]

How do Sanghelli smoke

[vagrant ocean]

Yes

[empty bloom]

After an elite is exposed to chemical agents that cause rapid cellular collapse, it's implied a human not only would similarly get affected, but she was also helped by something that would stabilize a human because they didn't really know how to treat her beyond 'This would work for us'-and it's implied humans generally have more medical knowledge about elites, down to number of bones, than the average elite does.

[minor sky]

Do they just shove the ciggerette down their throat like they do with food

Lmao

[wispy pewter]

So do the sangheli on earth go to the Vet when they are sick

[vagrant ocean]

I mean, part of the medical knowledge thing has to do with doctors and medics being historically frowned upon in their culture.

[empty bloom]

Every single living being in existence benefits more from a vet than nothing, so... Kinda.

Like, if I was shot in the chest, and I had the choice between some guy who read a medical book once and an actual dog doctor? I'd go the latter. They'd have a better understanding about how my body works.

[wispy pewter]

New field of medicine unlocked: Aliens 👽

[minor sky]

Give me a Babylon 5/Deep Space Nine style series set in the Halo universe so we can answer this super important questions

[vagrant ocean]

me trying to get the vet to fix my ficus

[minor sky]

It is called Xenobiology

[empty bloom]

Okay plants don't count and you know it

[unique rune]

a vet would probably be better suited to treating any Covenant species than a human doctor if only because they're probably used to dealing with a lot more varied anatomy than people doctors are

[vagrant ocean]

I know. Twas being cheeky

[empty bloom]

But yeah, this. I actually have a massive amount of respect for vets.

[minor sky]

https://tenor.com/view/babylon-5-b5-s01e04-straczynski-infection-gif-5766819889562431561

[vagrant ocean]

I know how to treat a Kig-Yar.

[unique rune]

do not eat your patients

[minor sky]

this is the one of two gifs I can find with Dr.Franklin in it

[vagrant ocean]

Not enough meat.

[empty bloom]

Like, if you know how to treat an iguana, horse, and macaw parrot, you can problably figure out a human or Sangheili pretty easily by comparison. The elite might be a struggle but like, they have lungs and hearts and other generally important organs, and injury causes are very obvious.

The underlying physiology is very easy to understand.

[wispy pewter]

Still remember that scene in Battle Los Angeles when the vet dissected the alien

[minor sky]

Is that the movie with those cool shark cyborg things

[empty bloom]

Straight up one of the single best scenes of that entire film, if not only because it was a relatively realistic depiction of a vivisection under duress.

I have a soft spot in my heart for that movie.

Sure it's big and dumb, but it's also peak cinema

[wispy pewter]

Yeah it’s one of my favourites

[minor sky]

Yes. Yes it is

Never saw it in full

[wispy pewter]

We don’t get a lot of military alien invasion movies. Independence Day 2 fumbled

[minor sky]

My two take aways were
"Aliens looked gnarly" and "they actually used the Battlefield font for the logo"

[empty bloom]

Like as I read through Empty Throne I'll admit

I'm not a fan

At all

I really don't like some parts of it

But I do like the part where human doctors are actually extremely competent

That's some good worldbuilding

[minor sky]

What about War of the Worlds starring Ice Cube?/j

[wispy pewter]

I didn’t even watch it. I heard the entire movie was a zoom
Call

[minor sky]

They save the day thanks to the power of Amazon

[wispy pewter]

Atleast it wasn’t Netflix

[minor sky]

I didn't see the whole thing, but what I did see was really close to Neil Breen levels of so bad it is good

Though it is hard to top

"I can't believe you commited suicide. How could you have commited suicide" Neil Breen said apathetically

[wispy pewter]

Dumbledore asked calmly.

[vagrant ocean]

I will set fire to your crops.

[minor sky]

You'll find that they are already ashes

[minor sky]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HR30A81uiLs&pp=ygUYRmF0ZWZ1bCBmaW5kaW5ncyBzdWljaWRl

[minor sky]

What specifically?

[minor sky]

It is definitely the Babylon 5 fan in me talking, but I'd love to see J. Micheal Straczynski take a swing at writing a Halo story

He is a writer who can really balance strong characters with a larger storyline.

[austere token]

The halo assault rifle is canonically a 7.62 round

[empty bloom]

Actually it's a Mac-11

[austere token]

Wut ?

A Mac -11 ? What’s that ?

[empty bloom]

Oh sorry I meant to say it's an Uzi

[vagrant ocean]

Basically the MAC-10 but in .380.

[austere token]

Ohhh

[vagrant ocean]

Specifically 7.62x51.

[austere token]

Yea so the assault rifle is a 762 right ?

[vagrant ocean]

Yes. The cartridge that it fires has the same dimensions as the one used by the FAL.

Pressure tolerances might be different.

[austere token]

Ohhh

Dang then everyone must be jacked because that’s a lot of ammo and weight to carry around lol

[carmine sleet]

Well Spartans are super soldiers, they are stronger than standard humans

[empty bloom]

Eh, 10 mags is only gonna be around like... 5-8 pounds.

[austere token]

True but also if we continue marine gear and odst gear

[empty bloom]

Isn't that big of a problem.

Like, the armor is explicitly lightweight

It's likely around the weight of a modern BDU as an entire ensemble while providing marginally better protection

[modest marsh]

The official stats for the MA5C include a loaded and unloaded weight which suggests each bullet is lighter than typical 7.62, but travels at a faster velocity

Of course those stats are a little fickle and very old so who knows if they hold up

[austere token]

Yea

[tight badge]

I saw a clip saying high charity would solo earth so the all time UNSC everything humanity ever built all the MAC platforms all the ships and 2 NOVA bombs and there goal is to destroy high charity

[vagrant ocean]

Eh, fully loaded it weighs as much as an unloaded G3A4 and I’d chalk that up to the materials used in construction more than the bullet weight,

[modest marsh]

that wouldnt account for its difference between loaded and unloaded

loaded vs unloaded presumably refers to the mass of the cartridges themselves

the issue is that if you assume 32 rounds per magazine, its like 50% lighter than an equal number of actual 7.62 NATO

[empty bloom]

Oh my god Jeremy Patenaude, I get it, you don't like Spartan IVs.

(Empty Throne griping)

I swear, half their job in this book is getting side eyed by every perspective character whenever they talk.

[vagrant ocean]

I did some autistic math, the MA5C uses an FMJ, so if we assume it’s analogous to the M80 FMJ which is about 10grams, it makes sense.

[modest marsh]

the cartridge designations are inconsistent

[vagrant ocean]

I’m just using what I can gather bro.

[modest marsh]

just to be clear, the actual most consistently depicted designation is that its some kind of armor piercing cartridge

sometimes said to be FMJ-AP

this would suggest a hardened penetrator or tip of some kind that should be denser than a typical ball round

[minor sky]

Hm. Not exactly what I've heard about the book, but ok

[vagrant ocean]

Maybe a steel jacket like the M59 from Nam?

[minor sky]

Then again, it isn't like Kelly Gay hasn't worked overtime to make Spartan IVs more popular

[vagrant ocean]

@modest marsh I think whatever projectile they use it’ll have to weigh as much as the M80A1 enhanced projectile round weighing around 8.4 grams.

As 32 8.4 gram rounds weigh around .6 pounds which is the weight difference on the MA5C

[strong nova]

Regarding discussion of the Promethean weapons in #halo-discussion;
I've seen headcanon thrown around that the Promethean weapons "learn and adapt;" that the reason they're the way they are in Halo 4 is because they're used to fighting the Flood, a swarming and chaotic enemy - hence the Suppressor's atrocious spread, Light Rifle's bursts, Boltshot's shotgun spread, etc. And that by the time of Halo 5, the weapons have adapted to their new enemies; UNSC, Covenant, etc - targets that are more controlled and singular, hence the weapons taking on tracking-style single-file bolts, etc.

It's just a headcanon, but a neat one I think. Alternatively I've also heard that Cortana modified the weapons to be more orderly by the time of Halo 5.

[spark pivot]

Thats not headcannon, it's stated in the spartan field manual lol

Except for maybe that last one

But iirc it was stated in the spartan field manual that the weapons adapted to different targets

[modest marsh]

I think it would be more accurate to say that promethean weapons can be reprogrammed/reconfigured to function differently rather than it innately having the ability to autonomously make adjustments

This would be something that would be handled by either a warrior servant’s ancilla or whatever is coordinating the promethean command network

There isn’t a computer in the thing that suddenly decides that it should fire differently without any external input

[fickle tide]

Promethean weapons again would be sick..I remember the scattershot

[carmine sleet]

I need them to come back in Halo 7

[warm ridge]

I think they 100% have the ability to autonomously make improvements / adjustments on the fly.
Forerunner Armor for example can do this.

Wouldn't be that big of the deal if the weapons also did this.

If anything, I'd be surprised if they didn't have this capability considering most Forerunner related things do.

[warm ridge]

That's canon to an extent. Not sure about the Cortana part though.

[minor sky]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j8RhVd_W3qA&pp=ygUbSGFsbyA0IHBsYWNlaG9sZGVyIHRlcm1pbmFs0gcJCU0KAYcqIYzv

Two things

1. I had no idea Del Rio was going to look so radically different
2. They should've kept the bit of Cortana slightly glitching and Del Rio's eyebrow raising

Really, this earlier version of the scene plays a bit better than the final one.

Especially this part:

MASTER CHIEF: Could what happened to the scientists have been related to the Didact's escape?
CMDR. DEL RIO: Honestly, son? Not our concern. A first contact scenario trumps our original mission. Priority now is to free Infinity from the planet's gravity well and file a threat assessment back at Fleetcom.
CORTANA: incredulous: You mean we're leaving?
Del Rio makes some notations and passes Lasky the datapad.
CMDR. DEL RIO: Mr. Lasky, you'll take point on the operation. I want boots on the ground inside sixty.
CORTANA: slight rampancy: But the Didact--!
MASTER CHIEF: Commander. Infinity drove the Didact back. That means he's vulnerable.
CMDR. DEL RIO: Yes, Master Chief. He isn't the only one.
Del Rio shoots a dour glance at Cortana.
CMDR. DEL RIO: I'd think you of all people could appreciate the benefit of living to fight another day.
Del Rio leaves. Chief and Cortana remain behind.
CORTANA:- deadpan- Well at least we found our ride home
Neither of them seems convinced."

Del Rio comes off a bit more reasonable, and they actually set up what happens later with Cortana a lot more organically

[empty bloom]

Fits the reality of Del Rio actually being even slightly reasonable.

[minor sky]

It is kind of odd how the earlier drafts of Halo 4 have bits and pieces that really would've boosted the original game

Like how the Elites (maybe Jul specifically) address the Didact when he first awakens

It went something like
Didact: Who initiated this awakening? You?
Elite: We are pilgrims, on the path to enlightenment

Little things like that actually flesh out Jul's Covenant and give them a role beyond just "a lot can happen in 4 years"

[carmine sleet]

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have the chance to rerecord some of those lines, thus leading them them being cut, due to the original VA who was playing the Didact passing away

[minor sky]

Idk if that is exactly the case. Especially with how they cut out some other dialogue protaining to both the Didact and Covenant

Maybe it was because they wanted the Covenant to only speak their native languages in Halo 4

Really, I'm willing to bet that it was the result of Chief and Cortana being the main focus of the writers

They might have thought about Jul's Covenant the same way they thought about how The Didact was "evil bad guy who wants to destroy humanity" and figured it wasn't priority

In all fairness, making Chief and Cortana's story work was the most important thing and I am very glad we got what we did. Still, there is a reason 343i was a bit blindsided by fan reception to The Didact and Jul's Covenant being more confused or lost than they anticipated

[minor sky]

A really interesting detail from Halo 4's development is how the Librarian resembled Cortana in the early storyboards

[restive yew]

hey guys I just had a thought about something lorewise, I was rewatching the gravemind cutscene for unrelated reasons (making a halo themed edh deck for the flood) and I noticed that the gravemind treats master chief almost like his son in a way vs how he is contemptual in his actions to arbiter (moving him around more aggressively and disrespecting his honor) and also sends chief to the better spot combatwise by sending him to the prophet's location, and then I remembered that the gravemind we are fighting in the main series is primarily made from Keyes' mind I would assume since it's the first human mind it consumes when it returns to life on the first ring
so that's an interesting thing about flood physiology, I guess I would describe it as sentimentality? it seems to want to integrate more people familiar to it, unite the family so to speak
or maybe respect since it seems to be unable to infect him

[carmine sleet]

They likely didn't have a finalised design at that point for the Librarian, I doubt it has any significant meaning

[carmine sleet]

The Gravemind in Halo 2 and 3 isn't made from Keyes' mind. That's not how Graveminds work

Not to mention the Gravemind was on Installation 05, not Installation 04

[restive yew]

if im not mistaken all flood are all the same flood

and all have the same flood mind

so the graveminds are all graveminds from all times of all graveminds ever

[minor sky]

Oh sure. I'm just saying it is interesting. What I can find of it in the early cutscenes does appear to be a separate design from Cortana

[restive yew]

if im not mistaken isnt every flood also every other flood at all times?

[small path]

Yeah, they're the same flood as before+ the new infected

Plus the the Primordial ofc

[restive yew]

which is crazy as a concept btw

[small path]

The Primorial only emerges once a gravemind forms iirc

[restive yew]

that's like needing a permit so you become all of your city staff at the same time to make the permit happen

[restive yew]

the primordial I think only becomes accessible to the active mind when it hits critical mass

but as much as the flesh is available, it can become a form of that shape it has consumed previously

which means that all flood are forerunners, and primordials, and sangheili, and human, and grunt, and engineer, and etc etc

a flood is a changeling

all creature types

[small path]

I think that's it yeah. Though I think the Primordial's mind is still conscious before that, it just can't interact physically with anything

[restive yew]

dude it is CRAZY that 343 abandoned this concept

[restive yew]

yes

[small path]

Since precursors exist without the need for a body etc

[restive yew]

the precursors if im not mistaken just exist as the universe

they will die when the universe does

they "ascended" past already ascended

the precursors were already essentially capital G gods and then they ascended further and disappeared from existence

[small path]

That might not even be the case, depending on how you interpret it. The domain supposedly has records older than the universe

[unique rune]

kind of
earlier stages of the Flood don’t seem to be able to access the greater hivemind and nothing official has really suggested that the outbreak on Installation 04 ever made that connection

so presumably Keyes and the rest infected at 04 were never incorporated into the hivemind intelligence that the 05 outbreak was connected to

[restive yew]

i think a comic said that they lived in a pocket dimension in forms to interact with eachother but i dont have a source for this claim so idk

[restive yew]

a connection is always made

microbial flood become part of the atmosphere of the infected area

there is not a point ever in an infected area where the flood are not always interconnected with eachother

but there does have to be some sort of connection BETWEEN the infected areas

[small path]

Once a gravemind forms, all flood become linked

[restive yew]

or some way for the area to spread

[restive yew]

precisely

[small path]

It doesn't need any sort of physical contact

Iirc the flood even started to infect spacetime during the forerunner flood war

[restive yew]

the real damage maker here is the microbial flood

they keep the entire flood mind connected throughout an entire infected area, and once the gravemind forms the microbes evolve to spread information

and they cannot be killed by conventional means, and there are no cures or chemicals to eradicate spores available to humans or covenant. the forerunners somehow were able to contain them but I don't think they breathed oxygen

microbe flood mean that unless you can completely control the atmosphere of an environment you can't get rid of the infection anywhere really, it'll always try to regenerate

(for anyone here who is not smart a microbial flood is the bacteria size flood forms that spread and fill the air in an environment, they are invisible to the eye because they are so tiny. think of it like the virus in your body when you get a cold, it's tiny)

but its inconsistent

[unique rune]

I mean that’s evidently not the case given the 05 Gravemind at coordinated stage had zero identifiable influence over the feral stage outbreak at 04 that would’ve been roughly contemporaneous with its existence

the proto-Gravemind being formed would’ve served as the 04 outbreak’s link to the whole network but it got exploded before it reached the critical point where it could connect to it

[small path]

I always found it so cool that during the latter days of the forerunner flood war, space itself started to take on an intangible nastiness

Like, it's truly a universal rot if it's left to spread too long

[small path]

That lore wasn't written at the time iirc, but yes this is the case in current canon

Iirc at least

[carmine sleet]

In CE and 2, there was no indication the Gravemind on 05 had any involvement with what happened on Installation 04. What Nova says stands both back in 2004 and now

[small path]

Just looked it up and you're both right on that

However

Graveminds are telepathic and do retain knowledge from previous outbreaks

Though their range seems limited by factors such as biomass

So a large enough gravemind could conceivably coordinate otherwise feral flood outbreaks

Depending on distance etc, as opposed to direct contact

[unique rune]

going back to the point that started this all I think any degree of apparent paternalistic treatment of Chief by the Gravemind is because it recognizes him and humanity as the heirs of the Forerunners’ legacy

and sees the Arbiter and the Covenant as a bunch of idiot dweebs earning a big ol’ “Fell for It” ribbon

[small path]

It definitely despises humanity much than it does forerunners

[minor sky]

From the Gravemind's perspective, the Covenant are basically worshiping their disowned children

[small path]

Though I still think the Primordial is just a hateful being by nature

Or at least as close to inherently evil as you can really get in halo

The fact it's likely still conscious in the galaxy despite the gravemind being dead is eerie

[hollow briar]

Technically speaking. The battle of installation 05 was like the battle of installation 04

but in 05's case the flood succesfully took over an human ship (In Amber Clad)

and it's weird to think how the battle for installation 04 was worse than 05's

in 04's. The flood wanted to take over either the pillar of autumn or the truth and reconciliation. They got neither of the ships.

in 05's. They wanted to take over the In Amber Clad. And they were succesful

and yes. The presence of the gravemind on inst 05 might explain why the flood's plan was succesful

[carmine sleet]

In Amber Clad was parked right where the Flood was, which made it very easy for it to board it (Miranda, the parking may have been free next to the Library but that doesn't mean it's the right place to park)

[hollow briar]

it's ironic how the story repeated

[carmine sleet]

Also In Amber Clad is much smaller than the Autumn

[hollow briar]

yeah but still

the flood took high charity in hours. the flood can infest anything in minutes

the flood does speedrun

now that i think of it, the autumn was already infested by the flood

the only reason of why they didn't use it is because guilty spark, chief and the covies were still onboard

(fun fact: the Drones can get infected by the flood. But not in game obviously)

[carmine sleet]

There was significantly more potential biomass on High Charity than there was on board the Autumn or the Truth and Reconciliation

[warm ridge]

1. The Autumn was extremely damaged
2. The Flood was in a semi-feral state.
3. Not enough biomass existed on the Autumn at the time to both repair & fix the Autumn.

[warm ridge]

Wasn't it confirmed somewhere the reason the Flood got onto In Amber Clad is due to the Flood hijacking a Pelican, and flying directly into it?

The Humans on board obviously didn't have any idea whether the Pelican was friendly or not, so it didn't get shot down. At least I recall something like this happening.

[hollow briar]

1. The flood was going to repair the Autumn. 2. Thanks to fireteam raven and some campaign evolved leaks we know there was presence of flood pure forms in the battle for installation 04. Which suggests the flood made a gravemind at some point (the proto gravemind Keyes was in didn't actually die). 3. Debatable.

[hollow briar]

The flood were planning to use the truth and reconciliation, but some odsts commanded by Silva destroyed the ship's engines. Crashing it down.

[warm ridge]

1. A Gravemind was never formed on Installation 04, nor during the events of Halo 1.
2. The Pure forms you're seeing come from Forerunner containment facilities, they were in storage, and they broke out. Whether released by accident due to the Covenant, or the released Flood just breaking them out themselves.
3. I already said the Flood was going to repair it, the problem is they didn't have enough biomass to do this at the time.

[hollow briar]

now that i think about it, fire team raven brought up lore that neither halo ce or the books had told us

like the presence of drones on alpha halo

oh and there were lichs too

there were scarabs too

[warm ridge]

That's not how the events played out at all.
The Marines / ODST's were trying to use the Truth and Reconciliation to get off of Installation 04, the Covenant had cleansed much of the Flood force off the ship (and so did Chief himself before leaving the ship).

Silva's plan was to bring the ship directly to Earth, violating the Cole protocol & endangering Earth greatly.
Lieutenant Mckay, who along with Jenkins, knew Flood forms were still on the ship, and knew the danger they were towards Earth. Plus, the Covenant would've also learned about Earth to.

So, Mckay & Jenkins destroyed the fiber optic cables connecting the bridge to the ship. This caused it to spiral out of control and crash land, killing everyone on board.
If anyone had survived the crash landing, they were soon destroyed by the destruction of Alpha Halo anyways.

[hollow briar]

we know bro. I just did a summary of what happened

[empty bloom]

Falcons, and ODSTs anywhere near the Chief, and other stuff tbh

[warm ridge]

you did a wrong summary that was blatantly incorrect.

[warm ridge]

Pure forms being in containment facilities on Halo rings have been known about since Halo 3. You can literally see one on the map Cold Storage.

[hollow briar]

i was talking about the other stuff

[warm ridge]

I know, I'm just saying it's not new lore.

Fireteam Raven was just the 1st actual example we've seen pure forms break out of the containment rooms.

[minor sky]

It occured to me the other day that a better way to introduce Blue Team in Halo 5 would of been for Chief to be out on a mission on his own and then run into Blue Team who are arriving to assist him. This way players directly get the sense of "oh Chief is/has been on his own, just pushing through missions to take his mind off of Cortana". Also most of them get to encounter Blue Team for the first time in a much more organic way with Chief reuniting with them

[hollow briar]

i love how in halo 3: odst, Buck talks about sum fall of reach

and in the next game after odst we experience the fall

and we also see Buck as well

[fading flume]

They managed to bring back a nod to the Primordial with the Endless reveal in EoD. Now we know Precursor dust is like clay. We already knew the Primordial created the Flood from the dust, it was just a matter of seeing if anything else could.

[empty bloom]

Just finished Empty Throne.

Not... of the mind that it was bad I suppose?

I'm a little annoyed by how some parts went-it felt very 'shoe out the clowns' in a sense.

Like it's a perfectly passable book, it just kinda does some stuff that I'm kind of annoyed is a constant in the Halo franchise lately.

[minor sky]

What specifically?

[empty bloom]

Established characters from the Reclaimer era are swiftly killed off in favor of newer characters with little fanfare, certain new characters have their role somewhat wasted (this is the first time there is a mixed fireteam of IIs, IVs, and Swords of Sanghelios troops), and they relied on yet another trope of turncoats.

That last one is frankly the most annoying because there is absolutely zero buildup with one of the specific characters.

Like one random guy just decides to go evil.

Like, mechanically, the book is narratively tolerable. It reads well and there's not any glaring issues. But it feels like the writer had waaaay too many ideas running at the same time and the book's narrative suffers hard for it.

[wispy pewter]

And of course it was a IV that betrayed everyone

Like he was the 4th one already

[empty bloom]

I was trying to not say any spoilers beyond bare minimum but yeah

Like he's actually easily the dumbest turncoat so far

[wispy pewter]

Don’t remember much pretty sure he was working with ex covenant aliens

[empty bloom]

Because there's nearly zero buildup, and who his actual allegiances lie with is borderline idiotic, because why would he be a spy for the Prophet-led new Covenant splinter?

Like I get the other betrayals, they're all fine and honestly make some amount of sense, but why him

[wispy pewter]

Is he poor

Probably

UNSC wages are at an all time low

[gusty star]

I don’t think it’s ever been made clear whether that Spartan was spying for the Banished or Dovo Nesto

I would lean more towards the Banished for the reasons you mentioned

While 'Soran was obv a spy for Nesto

[empty bloom]

The issue is that the post battle report at the end of the book explicitly labels him as part of the Covenant splinter

Like, it's kind of hamfistedly jarring

[gusty star]

Oh really I don’t remember that

If so that’s so dumb

[wispy pewter]

Chickens for KFC

[stoic hamlet]

There’s a lot of really, really dumb stuff in that book, tbh.

One of those “appreciate the worldbuilding, not the story” kind of books.

Which is… sad, but alas.

[wispy pewter]

Like farmers going avatar on a bunch of brutes and then dying brutally

[minor sky]

Who was it that got killed off unceremoniously?

[wispy pewter]

Atleast Gray Team returned

[gusty star]

Read it🙂‍↔️

[stoic hamlet]

Nah that was fine.

[empty bloom]

And they promptly kinda got wasted.

[wispy pewter]

Didn’t they succeed in that planet. I don’t even remember

[empty bloom]

Like, they aren't even really central characters and frankly don't provide much of anything useful to the plot.

[stoic hamlet]

But Boundary is an odd world.

The Encyclopedia mentions it was attached in the 2540’s… but there’s absolutely no mention of or implication of this in the book.

So like… huh?

[minor sky]

||you mean Solomon?||

[empty bloom]

BTW some guy we thought was dead is here with another violation of human ethics and also-

No, actually.

That would've been fine in a different book.

But it feels like they just kinda mashed two seperate books together.

[wispy pewter]

So he blows himself up with his Mjolnir but every other author seemingly forgets this can happen

[empty bloom]

No, every other writer correctly identifies the spoil device as stupid.

[wispy pewter]

Especially the author that wrote the Zeta Halo books

[stoic hamlet]

It should have been Naomi in their place.

Or maybe Omega.

That way, James’ reunion would feel like it meant something.

Also, James’ character overall feels like “child-friendly bad guy”. He never actually does anything deplorable or outside the scope of a Spartan, and I feel like him actually being a monster is kind of required for his arc.

also the Spartan “giving him an out” at the end ruins the overall idea of his arc anyways, so…

[wispy pewter]

Not a single time in Rubicon Protocol did a Spartan blow themselves up to avoid capture

The entire point of the self destruct

[empty bloom]

The failsafe is stupid, I'm glad Zeta never used it

[minor sky]

I'm still working through Edge Of Dawn, but Kelly Gay writes the Spartan IVs so well

[stoic hamlet]

The failsafe makes sense IMO in the context of First Strike, though honestly it could have just been done C-12.

[wispy pewter]

Why would you kill Naomi 💀

[wispy pewter]

Yeah better than the others

Except

The battle of Mortal something

[stoic hamlet]

I’m saying Naomi should have been in Grey Team’s place.

Because she and James have actual history

[wispy pewter]

Oh

[empty bloom]

I mean I'd have had a member of Grey team die in the betrayal instead of all three IVs so I'm also mean like that

I don't care for the "Oh no we gotta have all the IIs survive every time" crap, kill one, have some consequences

[wispy pewter]

They are an endangered species. The only Spartans safe to waste are the IVs currently. Since they are already dying like flies

[stoic hamlet]

Really though, I feel like of the arc of James is him kind of being sad about being a living weapon with no morals, him encountering a living weapon with no morals who… has morals, feels like it ruins the whole idea of that.

[empty bloom]

"Oh yeah that one had an energy sword rip into her skin through her chestplate" meanwhile one IV just like... Has something happen and dies in like, minutes? While the one II gets shot a bunch and is fine too?

[wispy pewter]

Because you can kill a hundred IVs and nothing much really changes

[empty bloom]

The more I think about the betrayal the more stupid it is

[stoic hamlet]

It’s really dumb.

It gets resolved off page, as well.

[wispy pewter]

Plot armour+being attached to the main characters of the series = you’re dead

[modest marsh]

You are making a lot of assumptions

[wispy pewter]

Nah. They captured a lot of Spartans. You even see dead ones in the game

[modest marsh]

You see a single captured Spartan

[wispy pewter]

There is explicit text of them ripping their armour off and toying with their dead bodies

[empty bloom]

(One of the assumptions is that spoilsports are a good idea)

(They aren't)

Honestly I'd have had that be one of the first things removed with the swap to GEN3-one less way to incapacitate or kill Spartans with hacking

[modest marsh]

Given the absence of hundreds of Spartan corpses it’s very plausible some of them did use the self destruct system

It’s just not something that is frequently used because the circumstances in which it would even be useful or viable to deploy are slim

[minor sky]

I also like how Chief is shown to respect the Spartan IVs as his equals. I kind of wish they kept the thread earlier versions of 4 had with Chief and (mainly)Cortana being a little offput by the IVs showing up while they were floating in space. Might've been a neat arc showing Chief go from slight hesitation to respecting them as equals

[empty bloom]

There's flakes of it in the final game.

[minor sky]

That is kind of there in 4 and 5 but they definitely cut it down from earlier versions

[empty bloom]

As for James' arc, it really feels like the part of the book that just got grafted on.

[modest marsh]

I feel like you’re forgetting that 1) the armor needs to be manually detonated, which doesn’t work if the Spartan dies unexpectedly 2) the Banished are deploying weapons that are shown to be highly effective at disabling the onboard electronics of the armor

[wispy pewter]

Probably. Wasn’t James using one tho

[wispy pewter]

I mean it’s been said other Spartans can do it too right? It’s just a detail I have an issue on

[empty bloom]

He was wearing GEN1 Mark V, not GEN3.

Unless ONI was nice enough to let him purchase a full GEN3.

Which I doubt.

[modest marsh]

You can’t actually name any examples in which the self destruct protocol would’ve been useful but was ignored

[wispy pewter]

Unless of course they just removed it because everyone already has temu Mjolnir so giving the banished your latest tech is not a problem anymore

[minor sky]

There is a cut piece of dialogue of Cortana explicitly saying how the UNSC "put all this effort into making the Spartan IVs but couldn't bother finding us"

(Paraphrasing)

[empty bloom]

Oh I absolutely see why that line was cut, that's incredibly stupid.

[wispy pewter]

Literally every single time a IV died on zeta Halo

[modest marsh]

Can you give me a name

[empty bloom]

Yes, because you totally want to explode inside of the base you're defending.

(Do not do this it is a very stupid plan)

[wispy pewter]

What about the poor dudes that died following that guy in Infinite? What was his name again?

[empty bloom]

Like it'd make sense if Cortana were narcissistic and stupid but she's just narcissistic.

[modest marsh]

I feel like we already had this convo before but many of the IVs that were defeated on Zeta were defending the Reverie which would’ve obviously been endangered by exploding Mjolnir

[wispy pewter]

Griffin

[modest marsh]

Griffin was captured at the Reverie

[empty bloom]

Jean's complained about it multiple times at this point. It's mostly why I just attack the notion of spoilsports on MJOLNIR in the first place.

[minor sky]

Yes I agree the line isn't perfect, but I kind of chalk it up to Rampancy. I think you could get the sentiment across without being so blatent about it or making Cortana sound selfish/stupid

[modest marsh]

If he detonated his armor he’d kill a lot of friendlies in the process

[wispy pewter]

Yeah. Imagine if he blew up in- forget it

Never mind

[stoic hamlet]

He was captured at a dig site, actually, but yeah.

[modest marsh]

Whoops

[wispy pewter]

We will just get a paragraph of Spartans being tortured. So pointless

I skip those

[stoic hamlet]

But she is selfish, lol.

She’s a narcissist. Always has been.

[modest marsh]

I just rationalize it as a deliberate parallel to this being a trope of UNSC ships, as that comparison was made since the original game

[stoic hamlet]

Rampancy just brought it to the fold.

[empty bloom]

I like how you just kinda ignore it happening in Reach lmao

[minor sky]

Then again, she also is about to die and I wouldn't be suprised if she was resentful at not being found earlier where she could have been able to stop her rampancy

[empty bloom]

I went on a rant about this on the Halostory Subreddit and I still think about how... Cripplingly unethical some folks' takes on it were.

[empty bloom]

It's not even a logical thing to be upset about!

[minor sky]

Yes I am aware

[stoic hamlet]

Tbf, no one on Noble really cares except Jorge.

Reach isn’t important to them, it holds no value to them except as a strategic objective.

[empty bloom]

The UNSC can walk and chew gum at the same time and space is big! Really! Really! Big!

[minor sky]

Space is huge and the Ark is very far away

[empty bloom]

I mean the exploding armor thing specifically

[stoic hamlet]

Oh, lol

[minor sky]

Elaborate?

[empty bloom]

Okay so like, "Ends justify the means" is actually a really good ethics question.

Thing is, actually thinking of it applying at all times with any means is incredibly unethical and stupid.

Which is explicitly why Halsey is so easy to judge, rightly, harshly, for making the IIs and just like, in general

[wispy pewter]

They should probably just retcon and say only certain Spartans have them failsafes

[stoic hamlet]

But yeah, no one on Noble really cares about anyone at or on Reach except Jorge. Heck, Carter sounds like he’s just going through the motions when speaking to the one Army Corporal at Visegrad. He doesn’t really care about them as people.

Which is fine, and good. That’s how III’s are generally portrayed, but you know.

[minor sky]

Ah, I see.

[empty bloom]

Like, the specific example; Halsey fails one of the most basic ethical dilemmas, which is "Who wants to operate the Orphan Crusher 9000?"

[wispy pewter]

That sounds cool

Jk

[minor sky]

HR Giger

(yes, i am proud of that joke)

[wispy pewter]

Idk man kidnapping kids for a super soldier program should have started riots across the UEG

[empty bloom]

See, she volunteers to be the operator of the Orphan Crusher 9000, because well, she thought about it a bit, and someone she doesn't know might want to operate the Orphan Crusher 9000.

So while she operates the Orphan Crusher 9000, she apologizes to the ground up organs and meat of the dead orphans. And she frowns and apologizes to the kids right before they get crushed too. She's kinda sad about it, but hey, it's for the good of the town, and the Orphan Crusher needs to crush Orphans.

[wispy pewter]

Oh wait no Humanity was busy dying

I forgot

[empty bloom]

The ethically correct solution to the Orphan Crusher 9000, to start with, is to never engage in the Orphan Crusher in the first place.

Like, ethically, you avoid it like the plague. And now that you know it exists, it is now your job to ensure it no longer exists, if you are actually an ethical person.

[empty bloom]

Which isn't even actually accurate.

It's why Halsey's revisionist philosophy and reckless disregard for accountability is infuriatingly naive for a character who should be smarter.

She should know her arguments aren't sound! She had to make them to get her damn degrees!

[wispy pewter]

She can have a trial after Humanity is not at risk I guess

[empty bloom]

The risk is literally manufactured!

[stoic hamlet]

It definitely wouldn’t.

Look at ITL examples of mass child suffering.

No one ever does anything.

Why would a disconnected humanity where random children on dozens of worlds missing have any reason to realize it was anything other than just kidnapping.

Halsey replacing them with Flash clones was idiotic and just made it worse.

[empty bloom]

And part of the rub with ethics is like, half the reason they're even a thing is because you literally work faster, safer, and better when you care about them, it is literally a mark of effeciency to be more ethical!

[wispy pewter]

The Banished doesn’t seem like an ONI creation

[empty bloom]

It's why it's literally documented scientific fact that well-paid, well-supplied, well-trained, and healthy workers with strong rights are more effective!

[wispy pewter]

No arguments there

[empty bloom]

The Banished did not even exist when the IIs were made what

[stoic hamlet]

It’s because Halsey isn’t a scientist, she’s a know-it-all with god knowledge, essentially.

[empty bloom]

In terms of how smart she allegedly is, it's one of the consistently worst-written parts of her character.

[stoic hamlet]

She’s never actually shown operating or acting as a scientist, and has such variance in knowledge it’s flat out unnatural.

[minor sky]

"Well actually, you see, it was actually the genesong which the Librarian put in all the humans that made her do it"

[stoic hamlet]

If she was actually shown paying for these traits, it’d be fine… but she never really does.

[empty bloom]

I mean the Librarian is a freaky horrible scientist colonizer lady too but she's not a human scientist so whatever

[wispy pewter]

I mean wasn’t the conclusion that humanity would have entered a brutal civil war and billions dead

Before the Spartan Programe

[empty bloom]

A manufactured and false conclusion.

Also a ridiculous one.

[wispy pewter]

That’s like building the bomb instead of a full scale invasion

[hot zodiac]

Yes but people don't believe it because they don't like it being part of the fiction

[wispy pewter]

I mean it’s still ethically wrong

[empty bloom]

The mere premise of Carver's findings is in doubt.

[stoic hamlet]

Carver’s findings basically became a prophecy because they existed in the first place.

[minor sky]

I feel bad for Bornstellar, getting yanked into this mess and not even realizing he has no say in the matter

[empty bloom]

Hell, I'd say Keyes is outright correct to say that Carver was a pessimist and a wrong one at that.

[wispy pewter]

Honestly a supersoldier programme contrived out of fears of a civil war is kinda dumb either way.

Would have made more sense if the unethical-ness was a world destroying super weapon instead.

UNSC should create a Death Star

[empty bloom]

Both ideas are incredibly stupid. You know what does make your colonized planets less mad at you?

GIVING THEM EQUAL REPRESENTATION. Y'KNOW. THE THING THEY ARE MAD ABOUT NOT HAVING.

[wispy pewter]

The UEG is supposedly a representative democracy already

Apparently

[empty bloom]

The issue was literally that the Outer Colonies were not getting representation!

And resented it!

It's why Gao and Venezia both went independent as soon as the war was on!

Well, part of it

[wispy pewter]

ATP I think they are pirates

[empty bloom]

They are, which isn't great.

[wispy pewter]

One does not align themselves with the space vikings and call themselves morally good

[empty bloom]

But you could make a salient argument that they are pirate nations explicitly because the failings of UEG Governance directly manufactured a situation of inequality that led to organized enough crime to cause piracy.

[minor sky]

ONI did the classic ruling class move of "Plug your ears and then send men with guns in the event of them throwing bricks at your window" which has historically always worked

[empty bloom]

Which, y'know, is literally a major factor in the geopolitical status of modern middle east countries and balkan states IRL

As well as a solid chunk of Africa

[dense falcon]

@tired peak this may be useful to answer your question.

[empty bloom]

Because long-term colonization/occupation followed by colonial collapse and no practical, effective, or rational infrastructure, safeguards, et cetera almost always ends, inevitably, in bad things happening to civilian populations, including rampant corruption.

[wispy pewter]

I guess this will keep happening in lore because I think a fairy tale Federation of the Star Trek universe is still kinda far away

[tired peak]

Thats like 2 years ago.... thanks

[empty bloom]

Thel actually has the right idea in his head on the subject, which is his "Concert of Worlds" theory.

[dense falcon]

I doubt the lore regarding slipspace speed has changed since then.

[minor sky]

sigh...... man I just like it when the Green Guy shoots the little turtle-monkey thing in the face/j

[wispy pewter]

The UEG spans like a 100 light years in every direction from Earth. Space is huge

Getting resources form one end to the other is difficult

[tired peak]

So slipspace is pretty much a maze that always shifts and moves around makeing at times short journeys take years for the crew and long journeys take weeks and sometimes doing the exact opposite as well?

[stoic hamlet]

Pretty much. Welcome to my hell.

[tired peak]

I starting to think my message sounds like scarscim LoL my bad

I really gotta phrase my words better lol

[empty bloom]

I mean the Grunts especially are hellbent on hitting the marker of "Pirate nation" soon since they are an ex-colonized state with a lot of purloined and abandoned infrastructure from two different major nations (The Covenant and Created) while lacking the social history to adequately avoid corruption under self-governance.

[dense falcon]

Aye just like the Warp!

[minor sky]

Doesn't change the fact that ONI/UEG actively did things to make the outer colonies' pleas fall on deaf ears

[empty bloom]

Atriox mostly seems to dodge his issues due to the Banished effectively managing itself more like a pseudo-Khanate.

And the Covenant Splinters all have rampant corruption issues due to how severely corrupt the Covenant was.

[wispy pewter]

I thought the newer slipsace drive fixed that. Or was it the navigation tool on the Infinity

[tired peak]

So with that slipspace notation I just read, being on a random trajectory in slipspace for 2 hours could possible send you to the other side of the galaxy?

[minor sky]

Yap-Yap shall lead the Grunts to salvation and their enemies to destruction

[stoic hamlet]

The Warp at least is acknowledged in-universe as sucking, even occasionally by our protagonists.

Slipspace is the opposite, we never actually see anyone struggle. we only hear that it can happen.

[empty bloom]

I mean, jokingly, absolutely, glory to God-Emperor Yap-Yap.

In reality, Yap-Yap is going to lead any Grunts he gets into forming a pirate state with him as the head despot.

[stoic hamlet]

I’d like for once to have some embattled colony or what have you where reinforcements are a day away but then “oops, Slipspace”, and they arrive three weeks late.

[empty bloom]

Well, we do know slipspace jumps can cause severe health problems, just not ones worse than major nauesea.

[tired peak]

Im trying to write a book, where the banished been useing a forerunner structure to pull UNSC ships out of slipspace and one ship that tried to escape got cut in half by the portal when it closed before the entire ship made it through, where 2 of the forgot how many were in the crew at the moment are drifting in slipspace,

[stoic hamlet]

Again, proving my point, lol.

[wispy pewter]

Ah

[tired peak]

Its just random unknown disappearing acts by the crew

[minor sky]

343i/Halo Studios has actually been very subtily setting up Yap-Yap as the main antagonist of the Halo series

[tired peak]

So I was hopeing that 2 hours could give a distance

[minor sky]

The Endless will (not) return in Halo 7

[wispy pewter]

Slip space travel seem to be instantaneous

[tired peak]

But ir uhh turns the maze of slipspace could literally send you to the other side of the galaxy in a short time

[tired peak]

For the outside word it is, but for you its not

[modest marsh]

2 hours is probably not enough time to go any meaningful distance just based on vibes unless they’re using some uniquely sophisticated technology or method to achieve that

[empty bloom]

I'm having one of those moments where I'm realizing I problably worry more about the Exopolitics (The actual word of it, not that tinfoil hat idiocy pushed by real life conspiracy theorists) of Halo than the creators of the franchise do.

[minor sky]

Idk if this is totally accurate but I recall the slipspace jump between New Mombasa to Delta Halo taking like two weeks?

[tired peak]

And i guess sometimes its reversed

[tired peak]

Just a standard Savanha class prower being adrift in slipspace

[empty bloom]

I'm also also realizing I wish more people actually cared about understanding geopolitics and sociology.

[stoic hamlet]

It’s neither instant for the crew nor the outside world, else Cryo wouldn’t be a thing.

[modest marsh]

Slipspace causes causality violations which sometimes express themselves as a form of time travel, but this is highly anomalous and will only occur in rare cases

[minor sky]

Sometimes you wind up realizing these series have more pressing priorities. Even if some of this stuff is actually interesting/worth looking into

[tired peak]

So there on a random trajectory in slipspace, as the slip stream is slowly eatting away at the ship due to its dmg before the 2 crew members entertded

[modest marsh]

This is getting into some not-to-well-explained parts of the lore but objects from real space do not seem to have the ability to natively exist in slipspace

[tired peak]

Im meaning that time is weird there also,

2 weeks in slipspace could be 4 hours then next 2 weeks is 2 hours in irl...
And now you go in for 10 mins and irl has been 1 week

Thats what im meaning

[tired peak]

Like this?^^^

[tired peak]

Here

[wispy pewter]

1 hour is 7 years on earth ahh

[modest marsh]

Some interpretations posit the necessity of an active quantum field to shield objects from 11th dimensional physics tearing it apart, which is what Halo 4 implies

Others make it seem like the object will just exit slipspace in the absence of an active drive

[empty bloom]

I mean yeah, it's honestly such a pet fascination of mine. And like, in broad strokes writers are okay at it (The refugee crisis on Earth in Halo is actually a pretty interestingly realistic outcome, as much as the fanbase seems to think humanity should go full ethnonationalist about the aliens on Earth like some sort of underpowered 40K), but it's still not great, and my brain just, y'know, really wants to brain about it.

Something about understanding how people tick on a social and political level is just fascinating and it's an interesting science.

[wispy pewter]

Th problem is that in Halo 4 they show refuge Elites committing crimes lol

[modest marsh]

How is that a problem

Is that not an expected outcome?

[empty bloom]

^

[wispy pewter]

Idk man blowing up Phoenix is bad

[modest marsh]

People commit crimes

[empty bloom]

It is literally the expected outcome, especially when you're a culture dealing with your religion of over 500 years being proven a complete lie. Like, emperically.

[tired peak]

Thatx what i have going, the ship was drifting through slipspace and exited near a moon witch put the other half of the ship on a cource to land on the planet

[minor sky]

I mean... that wasn't actually the Elites

[tired peak]

But explosion are awesome

[minor sky]

That was space mummy-mcgee

[tired peak]

https://tenor.com/view/torgue-explosions-borderlands-gaming-game-gif-16537893

[wispy pewter]

Okay Megumin

[empty bloom]

Like you cannot have been proven that your religion was more fake if you tried

[tired peak]

Not megumin... im talking about TOURGE

[empty bloom]

As in the literal supposed gods of your religion called you stupid.

[last anchor]

Random ping lol
What's up Trench
The ususe?

[tired peak]

Wait honestly how well whould megumin and tourge get along lol

[empty bloom]

Yeah, I'm currently nerding out about exo(geo)politics (The study not the conspiracy nonsense)

[tired peak]

That was me, trying to figure out slipspace in halo

[minor sky]

H2's original ending would've driven the knife in about as far as you possibly could

[last anchor]

Most excellent

[wispy pewter]

My fanon Elite refuge joined the UNSC foreign legion

[empty bloom]

We are not talking about that

[last anchor]

Carver Findings but real?

[unique rune]

I mean that's
kind of the core problem here

if nothing changes then it really doesn't matter so why would their death mean anything to anyone

[minor sky]

Sure?

[empty bloom]

Oh we talked about those too earlier

[last anchor]

Supreme

[empty bloom]

And how they don't actually make any sense in reality

And were a self-fulfilling prophesy

[wispy pewter]

Which is why I hate it when they make Spartan IV deaths mean absolutely nothing when every short story has a dozen of them meeting their end

[empty bloom]

This is why I propose we kill all of Red-Team on screen next game

[wispy pewter]

Since they are seemingly common I guess it doesn’t mean much then

It’s like the UNSC can produce IVs and a very fast rate

[empty bloom]

Offscreen, naturally, and have Osiris come across the bodies

[tired peak]

Could the UNSC during the halo infinite period be able to track lost ships though slipspace if they found the data center of the ship, even if cole protocol was activated

[tired peak]

As in pull up a relative trajectory

[empty bloom]

No, because Cole Protocol literally comprises of the complete and total severence of the navigation data.

[tired peak]

Or is cole protocol just that effective of a protocol

[empty bloom]

Zeroized. Gone. Done.

[wispy pewter]

Nuh uh

[tired peak]

So no way for the UNSC to track lost ships

[minor sky]

I still think that they shouldn't have had hundreds of Spartan IVs from the start

[wispy pewter]

Red Team should return

[empty bloom]

It's actually what kinda makes the Cole Protocol's utterance for the first time in the series kinda funny, because realistically the computers would likely just have a zeroize button that turns the entire data set to 0's instead of 1s and 0s. You shouldn't need to go at it with a hatchet.

[tired peak]

Yes

[minor sky]

Black Team but worse

[modest marsh]

They can deploy distress signals or beacons

[empty bloom]

I am not nice to the IIs.

[wispy pewter]

Osiris has already disbanded atp

[tired peak]

I forgot about thoes LoL

[wispy pewter]

1 is MIA, one joined their old team, Vale is on Sanghelios

And Tanaka is

[unique rune]

they can just put Osiris back together
it's not like any of them are in prison which didn't even stop them from gluing Alpha Nine back together

[tired peak]

Ok I have my idea for this part of my book ... thanks

[empty bloom]

Osiris is more fluid than the average IV unit anyways if we go by names and canon.

[unique rune]

hell one of Alpha-Nine is dead and it didn't stop them from putting the rest of the squad together

[empty bloom]

I mean Rookie is still there he just kinda smells funky, and something squishes when you move him

[minor sky]

(Nb4 someone says Black Team was stupid and dumb and you are stupid and dumb for thinking their death was bad)

[unique rune]

everyone tells me he's napping

[empty bloom]

Someone should wake him and make him take a shower, he smells like death.

[wispy pewter]

I would rather have Majestic reappear

[tired peak]

And thank you for a jump to a uhhh.... Very basic understanding of slipspace...
That is slipspace is a winding maze that dose whatever it wants

[wispy pewter]

Thorne should return.

[tired peak]

And I heard rookie is open minded