#video-games
fathom juniper
fathom juniper
idk what the ratio of zombie and ratio of robot is
and the ratio is about... this much
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638031423340806185/1396373007298990120/image.png?ex=687dd934&is=687c87b4&hm=bbea088d61e3d61a3efd41a2f8d92402e828e561dfe720f2f845c8d01dc57a70&
i'd say 60/40
dense kindle
wow it really is the revenant
fathom juniper
more or less, yeah
actually more than less 
it's literally just a kitbashed 2016 rev model
fathom juniper
maybe the deadspace roster?
dude that was such a good call
https://youtu.be/djuoyjighFw?t=61
this is the stuff i was looking for - this one dude right there getting mad
dense kindle
yeah I was gonna say, the regular dudes got the knife things at the top, kinda like the cannons of the revie
dense kindle
is the new thing an update for base warframe or the other gamemod
ocean iris
No idea I just watched the stream for the drop
green scaffold
Speaking of Hades, I recently started playing Lost in Random: The Eternal Die and if someone loves Hades, then I highly recommend checking this game out because it's a 1:1 gameplay copy of Hades but with LiR artstyle
It already felt similar when I saw the reveal trailer but after playing it...yeaaah, just same game lol
The only thing so far I haven't seen being copied is heat system
rustic falcon
thats cool! ive had it on my radar but im not sure its on my wishlist at all
not yet... 
fathom juniper
i'm surprised that pic above wasn't on your radar
i was dead sure mods would remove it 
also - hi 
im back
green scaffold
thats cool! ive had it on my radar but im not sure its on my wishlist at all
Definitely something you should look for on sale to scratch that Hades itch 
In the meantime on PC I will continue my mystery mood, I was a Duck Detective, time to be a Bat Detective, though he does more "beating crap out of goons" type of investigation
fathom juniper
In the meantime on PC I will continue my mystery mood, I was a Duck Detective, t...
i wish i had batman's superpowers
green scaffold
Money?
fathom juniper
Y E S
rustic falcon
Definitely something you should look for on sale to scratch that Hades itch <:Pa...
hades 2 will probably remedy that very well!
i moved flintlock priority up due to your recommendation
but rn i have my hands full with the thaumaturge. actually really enjoying the mid jank
not even jank! im enjoying the mid.
green scaffold
i moved flintlock priority up due to your recommendation
Aw, I'm glad to hear that! 
I mean, at the moment, because if you won't enjoy it, it will make me look like a fool 
I have to play Thaumaturge myself one day, setting definitely hooked me instanty from trailers, 1920's Warsaw? with monsters? Sounds awesome
Maybe it's because I played Shadowrun back then and had itch for something more unique when it comes to monster setting
rustic falcon
Aw, I'm glad to hear that! <:PE_PandaLove:728261312387481680> I mean, at the mo...
welll i was the one who bought it, your recommendation was a happy accident lmao
yeah the friend who recommended it to me "warned" me its not the best ever, but im enjoying it
green scaffold
That's the most important part
green scaffold
now there's a name i recognize
World would be a way better place if instead of 300th fantasy game we would get more cybertrolls
silk abyss
I had a kid on Roblox challenge me to a fight because I pushed him lol
“Are you a 80s high school bully” and he immediately shut up lol
He literally asked if I was scared cause i didn’t answer quickly
Like dude a pug is more threatening then you
mystic wave
good
rustic falcon
yayyy
woven breach
I'm huffing a lot of hopium rn
woven breach
||surely Gustave will come back. His skill trees are locked when I last saw it. Right? RIGHT????||
it's E33 spoiler btw
dense kindle
||surely Gustave will come back. His skill trees are locked when I last saw it. ...
||I called it like halfway through act 1 lol
I thought his weapons were bugged until I thought about it for a couple seconds
and then the thought popped into my head "this reminds me of Aerith..."||
clear python
not again!!
ocean iris
<@305369001343582220> get in here boah
YASSS
fathom juniper
this is why my modding adventures take so long
cause every time i get some speed i see crap like this or selaco and just go like
what's even the point?
signal kayak
also - hi <:PES3_Wave:689493304316002471>
im back
Hi back, I'm-
BANG!
hearty yarrow
||I called it like halfway through act 1 lol
I thought his weapons were bugged u...
||I called it basically the same. Hm no skills. No passives...hmm the narrative focus is shifting to maelle...okay he is gonna be Dead.||
rustic falcon
||guy fridged for a girls character development is the funniest thing. finally||
||dont get me wrong i luv him verily so||
long hearth
sick epoch
Ill be honest, i think you are looking too much into things.
And sometimes a story is just a story and nothing more.
The authors wanted to give it a twist and dont focus on the details that can be interpreted in thousands of different things.
I mean you can say that the game is sexist towards woman but you can also say otherwise by other things the games has.
Things can have thousands of different interpretations and the creators only had a few in mind
hearty yarrow
I
long hearth
so we can move here :p
hearty yarrow
Have been talking about the game here yes
long hearth
yeah I pinged you to alert you that I'd forwarded it to be clear
that wasn't intended to be patronising I'm just kind of awkward sometimes
hearty yarrow
Fair
I do find the ||verso|| self insert stuff funny
Cause
It's written by Jennifer no
long hearth
yeah and if you go into the side content the side content is much less narrow-minded than the actual endings so I'm inclined to suggest the didacticism of the game and how hardline it ends up being on the messaging is more a product of the director than the scriptwriter
hearty yarrow
I don't find it that hardline
Hell the studio seems pretty conflicted on what ending they choose
And the community too
long hearth
the community isn't even slightly conflicted except where it's being kinda dumb and ||actively reinterpreting maelle's ending to be something it isn't||
which I mean, more power to them, the author must die to liberate the reader, roland barthes and all that
but that doesn't take away my issues with what the director is trying to say
long hearth
like the game isn't subtle ||one of the endings is called 'life to love' and the other is called 'life to paint' I wonder which of these the director favours in a story about love and grief||
hearty yarrow
||If I was maelle I'd also not be strong enough to leave the painting||
long hearth
||nevermind the shot and audio selection on life to paint being deliberately horrifying in a way life to love simply is not||
this is admittedly kind of tangential
hearty yarrow
||Like I said it in this channel before but if the dreams in which my loved ones still live were real I'd stay there.||
long hearth
||If I was maelle I'd also not be strong enough to leave the painting||
||I mean, right, but E33 is consistent that Renoir and Verso, the men, are strong enough to do this and also correct to force Aline and Alicia to leave the canvas for their own good||
hearty yarrow
||and I know that is bad but it's also reality for me it's how I feel.||
||they aren't really. Renoir has nobody left if they are lost to the painting. He's not headstrong, he's scared. Verso lives 67 years knowing he is dead, watching people die around him from a conflict he didnt choose to be made for.||
long hearth
||like completely setting aside that the narrative stops considering Lumieran characters as real past Act 2 which is its own issue, dialing in on the gender relations that renoir is the rational one at all times even when actively fighting the party while aline is insensible and irrational and actively harming herself even when actively aiding the party is not like, a neutral depiction of the people here||
hearty yarrow
||He is not strong enough, he is tired. He doesn't see another way out. Like he lives in that would watching his real mother decay, knowing he is dead.||
long hearth
||He's not, though.||
hearty yarrow
||like completely setting aside that the narrative stops considering Lumieran ch...
||what lumieran characters, only sciel/lune remain, and they are at that point repainted by alicia.||
long hearth
||And yet they're character enough to ride the verso pony||
||after he genocided their entire people||
||It's in fact more or less the only relevant thing they do in Act 3!||
long hearth
||what lumieran characters, only sciel/lune remain, and they are at that point r...
||also if you view repainting by alicia as they're no longer the same people then I have no idea how you can consider the endings as remotely 'equal'||
hearty yarrow
||Lune is not actually mad at verso in specific, like that's clear in their first conv, she quite well understands his situation, the pressure of his parents, being painted just like everyone else. There's a reason Lune is the character who is forced to be something by her own parents. They are of the same. Also, all of the relations, sciel and lune, are escapism. It's what people do when doom is on the horizon in a sense.||
long hearth
||Feel like Lune should, in fact, be mad at Verso in specific||
hearty yarrow
||also if you view repainting by alicia as they're no longer the same people the...
I have no interests in comparing these like math equations
long hearth
the game inherently presents them in juxtaposition refusing to compare them against each other is just ostrich behaviour
hearty yarrow
||should she? Is he the cause of the suffering? Is the one who created this world? The gommages? Or is he just another painted creation as part of a family's grief?||
long hearth
endings cannot exist standalone they are always in dialogue with the alternatives
long hearth
||should she? Is he the cause of the suffering? Is the one who created this worl...
||on the last part the game is very, very clear in side content that painted people are just as 'real' as anyone else||
hearty yarrow
Yes but I do not see the point of doing some moral equation to them
It's not this one is +2 that one is -1
long hearth
I'm not interested in a moral equation either, I'm interested in showing you that the narrative favours one of them
hearty yarrow
I don't think so
long hearth
which is partly moral but only because it decides to be very morally didactic in the last 5% of the game
||like, if lumierans aren't real if they've been repainted then genuinely I have no idea how you can argue that 'life to love' isn't the 'correct' pick||
||because otherwise you're just enabling an elaborate suicide||
hearty yarrow
||In either ending you condemn someone to a life they don't want, you condemn a world. You make a family live without their daughter, or you destroy the painting. It's not a choice where it's one is best, not to me.||
long hearth
||I mean that's why I said that it's important that Alicia repainting them doesn't like, change who they are||
||otherwise the balance you laid out there doesn't exist, because there's no actual world to weigh it against||
hearty yarrow
||if that is important to you to view it as such then fine I'm not telling you to agree with how I read it. Repainting to me doesn't make things less real. Art is real to me no matter what.||
long hearth
||It goes from Dessendres vs. Lumiere to Dessendres vs. Nothing||
hearty yarrow
||It's dessendres vs dessendres||
long hearth
||...there's a difference between art and people||
||like this is one of the core issues with how clever the game is trying to be! It sold you on its narrative as a fairly grounded story that is grounded in characters and how they feel about the challenges before them.||
hearty yarrow
||is there?||
long hearth
||going 'ah, it's all a metaphor for art you see' just doesn't work when you've done that||
hearty yarrow
||Like in a sense it's the same question plots like the matrix ask (among other questions), does what is real matter, as long as you experience it as such?||
long hearth
||the main narrative says yes it does matter, the side content says no, the game isn't like- a lot of my issue is it doesn't let you draw your own conclusions||
||partly by refusing to account for lumiere in the final decision! they basically don't come up!||
||It wants to focus really hard on the grief metaphor that no player knew about until five hours ago and manyplayers - and you can check the subreddit for this - don't care for even once they're actually at the ending||
||Life to Paint is so astoundingly horrifying in shot and audio selection that the game ends up being intensely didactic on the matter||
hearty yarrow
||all of lumiere is dead why would it come up like that. They're dead. There's no lumierians besids two who didn't choose to be remade. Alicia is entirely in control of them existing. What voice do they have?||
long hearth
||It's instructive, it doesn't want players to come to their own conclusion unless their own conclusion is the same as the director's||
long hearth
||all of lumiere is dead why would it come up like that. They're dead. There's n...
||s'almost like the opening of Act 3 was 'we can bring it back'||
hearty yarrow
||grief is in the entire game? It's in the first 30 minutes? What do you mean the metaphor only exists at the end? It's the entire game||
long hearth
||grief as a theme is present throughout. The specific metaphor the entire game turns on is only known to the player for the last like, 5 hours. And it's only that long if you do maelle's companion quest before you go to the finale||
||(because lune's takes five minutes and sciel doesn't have one :^)||
||and that metaphor is more or less forced down your throat with how the narrative doesn't allow lumiere being brought back to be at all centred or, really, discussed much in the final confrontation||
||you're not allowed to make it about lumiere, your decision has to be about the dessendres||
hearty yarrow
||I saw grief as a wide metaphor from the prologue onwards, like the supposed enemy in fake renoir is grieving, there is consistent and constant grief permeating it. It's not really a revelation that it's about grief.||
||I liked sciel's max relationship a lot. It came pretty close to home. Saying she doesn't have a companion quest just cause you dont go to an area kinda hits me wrong ngl||
long hearth
but also regarding my consistent hate of verso, this isn't even getting into the worst of it but this is genuinely a not-incorrect assessment of what he actually like, does
and I genuinely do not believe the studio understand how awful they made him, I think they understand about 50% of how awful they made him
the rest was by accident
because the narrative consistently softballs him all the time
hearty yarrow
I think that image is just willfully simplifying everything to get across things the game doesn't say by taking things as literally and as bad faith as possible
long hearth
it's an accurate description of what the man actually does
that it's so uncomplimentary is not like, the fault of the descriptiion
but rather that once you strip away the sadboy mystique he's just atrocious
and this isn't even getting into how insanely 
I think it is ||that both female party members that aren't 15 will sleep with him after he killed them and also their entire people||
hearty yarrow
Also it'snot even 100
He's had 67
Even in simplifying it's just factually being wrong
long hearth
really don't think changing the number 100 to 67 there makes it look any better
hearty yarrow
There's no reconciling those things anyway
I'm not interested in going oh he's such a good guy
I understand him
I don't need to be like yippee yahoo he's so good about it
long hearth
concerning!
hearty yarrow
Cause he can't be
I mean ||he lives 67 years knowing a city, a people, is made and created to keep a memory of him alive because he died. There's no....living with that.||
||you watch your family tearing itself apart over your memory for 67 years, you watch everyone die||
||He says it literally right? Our world and its people are burdened by your family's grief.||
long hearth
||so... the conclusion is... genocide?||
||like are we just arguing in favour of omnicidal supervillains if they have a good sob story now because like, verso would be the final boss of any final fantasy story he was in||
hearty yarrow
||Yea forcing the little boy to keep painting forever is better, bondage over death!||
long hearth
which is probably why I reacted so strongly in the first place, for all E33 apes the form of final fantasy it could not be further away from the series in terms of conclusions and catharsis
long hearth
||Yea forcing the little boy to keep painting forever is better, bondage over de...
||I mean, you can talk to the kid elsewhere in, again, optional content and he'll go 'yeah honestly if given the choice I would like to keep painting'||
this is part of what I mean about how there seems to have been a disconnect between the main narrative and side content
which I attribute to creative differences between the director and the scriptwriter, as that is probably the most common reason for it
hearty yarrow
||I have talked to the kid, in fact that same kid also agreed that he is tired of painting in the ending scene. Perhaps the kid is not entirely sure what he wants? Like...I dunno. Verso? Cause it's Verso?||
long hearth
||In that case why are we taking his nonverbal 'tired' answer that Verso pushes on him as the 'real' answer over the verbal one with voice acting that he said of his own accord without prompting||
hearty yarrow
The faded people contradict themselves a lot
The man does too
They arent like stable always
long hearth
sounds like a good reason to not make instant, permanent, snap decisions based off one thing they said one time
hearty yarrow
||I mean verso does assume he is tired but it means a lot to me that the kid nods and takes his hand. Not all needs to be said.||
||actions speak louder than words to me||
long hearth
||I am slightly bemused that you can make this argument while simultaneously holding that Life to Love is not privileged over Life to Paint by the narrative||
||Does the game push you towards 'Verso is right, the canvas has to go' or not||
hearty yarrow
||it should maybe also be noted that verso is more into his music. We even see the little boy play music. He doesn't get to do that as a soul. Yet, his mother painted him as loving piano, didn't she.||
long hearth
||I mean sure but all painters leave that shard of themselves in the painting so it can keep going||
||It's normally not an issue!||
hearty yarrow
||I think it pushes towards cruel choices, the endings do not make me interested in arguing which is better, they make me interested in arguing what they mean.||
long hearth
||I don't think the ending is particularly cruel except in that it gates the 'healthier' ending behind siding with the worst man alive so of course I'm never doing it||
hearty yarrow
||I think when I am presented with two endings I don't have to assume one is Good and one is Bad I can treat them as choices with consequences, not as red and blue teams.||
long hearth
||also I think the 'oooh verso ruined the golden ending' thing is insufferable and trying far too hard to be clever||
||I feel like part of the reason the endings are the way they are is they started with 'the golden ending is impossible' and worked backwards from there||
hearty yarrow
||what golden ending?||
long hearth
||do you remember the title of the letter painted alicia gave Verso?||
||It's titled 'A Life to Dream' in French||
||exact same naming scheme as the endings in french||
||basically when verso decided to not give that letter to maelle he made the 'golden ending' impossible||
hearty yarrow
||Yes, but to me this doesn't imply an ending at all. The whole letter is about the inevitability of what is about to happen. If anyone tipped the scales in favor of these endings it's clea lol||
long hearth
||...huh? The letter is talking quite specifically about how a third path is possible and Maelle is the one who can find it||
||but since Verso never handed the letter over, she couldn't||
hearty yarrow
||she did find it tho. She did see it.||
long hearth
||Not until after the end of Act 2! At which point it was too late!||
||Verso not giving it to her before the confrontation with the Paintress is what sealed the deal!||
hearty yarrow
||and it's not talking about a golden ending? It's hopeful about who alicia might turn out to be. Not...presenting an alternative.||
||Like kinda the point of the letter is that the people are going to be making the choices they are, which will have the consequences they have. She's not telling Maelle not to free the paintress. She's trying to get her to think about what to do after.||
long hearth
god why is there no copy of the letter's text online I'm going to have to transcribe a YT video
hearty yarrow
||Isn't the song with this name Maelle's theme||
long hearth
||No, Maelle's theme is Lettre d'Maelle||
hearty yarrow
||I've seen the cinematic enough||
long hearth
completely different song
hearty yarrow
||oh ye it's the alicia theme isn't it||
||painted one||
||the une vie osts are like renoir/aline/alicia|| bossfights iirc
||We Lost the real banger tho||
long hearth
right, snips acquired, one moment
hearty yarrow
I mean I know what it is
I've seen it I've heard it multiple times
There's no alternative in it
There's a question and a hope
long hearth
||https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/874854721968541736/1396825887105749023/image.png?ex=687f7efb&is=687e2d7b&hm=cfb8c05b37eebcf9950069c3d4138367a678384e1088ee37043f539f46b8439d&=&format=webp&quality=lossless||
||https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/874854721968541736/1396825886241853550/image.png?ex=687f7efb&is=687e2d7b&hm=02395edb39a3667037d8cffa86f3d1b8a920f24061c5cbd201b9e2d4755706e7&=&format=webp&quality=lossless||
||https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/874854721968541736/1396825886522609717/image.png?ex=687f7efb&is=687e2d7b&hm=ef2995a05a018ec7d9f5d6312a03ee2082da6b51f10861ee7195be4f5a32b5d2&=&format=webp&quality=lossless||
||https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/874854721968541736/1396825886808080515/image.png?ex=687f7efb&is=687e2d7b&hm=90665e26030b5e8c8c7749e5e7438adbef445f6425a52efaf052275037680c3d&=&format=webp&quality=lossless||
she literally says the words 'perhaps you'll find another way'
||a way where both families can survive||
||but verso didn't give maelle the letter so...||
hearty yarrow
||she does, but this letter presupposes, right at its start, that the expedition will succeed, and that verso might choose not to hand her the letter. It's a hope, not a solution.||
long hearth
||...yes, alicia is well aware that verso might choose to screw everyone over as he in fact does so||
||I don't understand how this contradicts the 'verso ruined the golden ending' thing that sandfall are obviously going for here||
hearty yarrow
||the perhaps does a lot of work there. There's no suggestion that there is a different outcome. That there is a way to survive. It is a hope, not a statement of an actual option||
long hearth
||...yes?||
||I don't understand how any of this counts against the very deliberate titling of the letter and the obvious implorations of Alicia to find a 'third path' that doesn't exist in game (because Verso didn't let it happen)||
hearty yarrow
||If she wanted it to have a golden ending, why did she not just give the letter directly to maelle||
||It's also a third path doesn't exist. Grief, especially like this, doesn't have an answer where everyone leaves with what they want.||
long hearth
||because she wants to trust verso? I'm not sure why this is relevant to the metanarrative point about a golden ending being possible in theory but not possible because of who Verso is as a person||
||because, again, worst man alive||
hearty yarrow
||I dont see it being possible at all. I don't see how hoping for it in a letter means there was one.||
long hearth
||wdym by 'there was one'||
like I think you think I'm arguing there was some third ending that was cut in development
that's not what I'm arguing
I'm saying sandfall are referencing an imaginary third ending to be clever and I find it insufferable and also I suspect they to a degree wrote backwards from that
hearty yarrow
No when I
Say there was one I mean the suggestion of the possibility of there being one that is swept away
By characters
And I just don't think that's what's done at all
A hope it not a solution
It's just hope
long hearth
I mean, to be quite honest ||if sandfall didn't intend to suggest a third ending being ruined they made extremely elementary mistakes that they otherwise don't||
hearty yarrow
What does that even mean
long hearth
like, the titling is extremely blunt about that!
hearty yarrow
The titles also just have to do with the family!
long hearth
there are exactly three times 'A Life to X' is used in all of expedition 33
this is one of them
you know what the other two are
if that was unintentional on sandfall's part, it is an extremely elementary mistake
hearty yarrow
Une vie a t'aimer is ||Painted renoir's boss song, yet it's also titled after the ending where maelle leaves the painting lol||
Like it's
Also representing perspectives of the family
It's not just ending names
long hearth
if that were true in the sense of primarily being that, there'd be five 'une vie' songs and there's three, that's just not true
they in part do that, sure! but the titling is highly specific
like idk what to tell you, the titling is used in exactly three locations, one of which is talking about finding a third way this is like, so highly unsubtle reddit picked up on it
(and of course tricked themselves into thinking it meant there was a secret ending for like a week, but that's tangential)
hearty yarrow
I mean the une vie that plays for ||painted renoir|| mirrors the one playing for ||real renoir||. The une vie that plays for ||alicia represents hope of a path that doesn't actually and can't actually exist. It's not that an ending is snatched away by choices of characters. It's that it can't exist to begin with. It's why alicia presupposes the paintress' defeat, expresses her accepting that fate. She's expressing, well, a dream, a hope, a desire for an impossible reality. There is no third path, there never was the option for it, there merely was hope.||
long hearth
||This is a very nice metaphor but also genuinely not textual. If that were the case, the section to Maelle would not exist and it'd exclusively be a letter to Verso. It is a genuine plea on Painted Alicia's part to find a third way and I'm slightly bemused by you being so adamant on this when like, the game could not be less subtle||
hearty yarrow
||it's intriguing actually, painted renoir has the A life to love theme, while he is fighting to stay in the painting, and that titled ending is outside of it. Similarly the life to paint soundtrack is the theme of the real renoir.||
long hearth
||Like stop thinking about the OST names for a second||
||Completely blank them from your mind.||
hearty yarrow
I wont
long hearth
||Consider in context that there are three uses of the 'une vie' construction in the narrative, two of which are the two endings and the third of which is a letter begging the protagonist of the game to find a third path.||
||And please think over why you're so adamant that it's not a reference to a hypothetical third ending because I do not understand why, you're plenty smart enough to see what they're doing and you like Sandfall enough to believe it to be intentional.||
||Additionally consider that the letter title was translated like the ending titles were, while the OST titles were not, if you really can't set the OST aside for a moment||
hearty yarrow
||Because it's expressing hope, a dream, not a reality. A path that could be possible if, and only if, everyone in the story wasn't who they are. Not just verso, but also aline, renoir, alicia, and clea. A path that is a dream, not a reality. It's not representing a possible ending, it's representing a hope. And it does so by offering a choice to someone, to verso. A choice that doesnt exist. He can't make it. He doesn't even interact with the choice untill after the deed is done. Because it's a dream. It's not an actual option. It never was.||
long hearth
||I mean. Yes, that's the point.||
||It's impossible because of who Verso is as a person.||
hearty yarrow
||what do you mean the ost titles were not||
||not verso, the entire family. There is no third path.||
long hearth
||Verso is the only Dessendre who exercises agency in the entire game||
hearty yarrow
||also if you are insisting on calling me 'smart enough' to get things the way you see them we are better off not talking||
||He isn't. They all do. Renoir acts on the lessons Aline gave him, when he in the past was stuck, Clea creates nevrons, Aline returns, and leaves the painting, they all have agency, you just dont get to choose their text||
long hearth
||Unlike my takes on E33 having a deep contempt for women, this is not my personal take this is an extremely widely accepted interpretation of that letter and I meant what I said in that I'm very bemused by you digging in your heels on what seems an extremely obvious reference when you have the background and studies to read into what they're doing.||
||I expected the argument to be about whether or not Sandfall were being 'too clever for their own good' by doing it, not whether they did it at all||
hearty yarrow
I dont need to read forums to agree with the takes other people have sorry, I'll have my own opinions instead
long hearth
You know that comeback doesn't work great when the only reason I brought up other people's opinions was because you accused me of only considering you smart if you agreed with my takes.
hearty yarrow
Okay change my to whatever group of people largely agrees
Point is the same
Like I can rewrite it to uh
also if you are insisting on calling me 'smart enough' to get things the way you say you and wider audience sees them we are better off not talking
long hearth
I am not like, going out on a limb to defend my takes on the director self-inserting into Verso because while I think that's true it's impossible to prove and kind of offensive if I'm wrong, I'm going out on a limb to elaborate on what is probably one of the most popular lit nerd topics on the game
hearty yarrow
Same thing
I mean I dont need to agree with the popular lit nerd take
I didnt get a degree to do that
I got it to have my own take
long hearth
I mean it's not really... a take, that's why I'm so confused
hearty yarrow
I mean I disagree simple as lol
Idrc what reddit or 4chan has to say about it
Or r/literature
Or whatever
Or twitter
long hearth
I mean if you don't care what other people's takes are I question why you even want to discuss anything at all
hearty yarrow
I didnt say that
sonic creek
This looks like a constructive and fun discussion!
hearty yarrow
I said I dont value a take by its popularity
Nor do I enjoy being called 'smart enough' to agree with one
hearty yarrow
This looks like a constructive and fun discussion!
Oopsies
long hearth
my exact words were 'you're plenty smart enough to see what they're doing' which was not, at all, a demand to agree with my take...? It was an acknowledgement that you are smart and educated enough to see what they're doing with the titling, which is why I'm confused by your take, it was a request for elaboration
long hearth
||Because it's expressing hope, a dream, not a reality. A path that could be pos...
which I did get, here!
which largely leaves me at ||'I think we're disagreeing semantically over what a "third ending" hypothetical even is'||
||and also whether or not we blame it all on verso, which I would contend we can because even if it would have been impossible due to everyone's fatal flaws rather than just his, I think that's a fair interpretation you're not wrong... it's his that made it actually fail||
hearty yarrow
I mean to me it read as you're interpreting what they're doing a specific way and then call me smart enough to agree with that take on what they're supposedly doing
Which just comes across as annoying
long hearth
I was referring there to specifically 'they clearly meant something by doing the titling like this'
vale hedge
I want to ask, do you think that after the big reveal of world is shown in the end of Act 2, all the actions and events and stories of the characters matter?
hearty yarrow
Yes
long hearth
uhhh
vale hedge
I think it does
long hearth
how do I put it
||I think they do, I am much more suspect on whether the narrative agrees on that front||
vale hedge
I really like the idea that even ||if they're not really real, what they did and think and felt still feel real and alive||
long hearth
||because Lumiere just disappears in terms of narrative weight after the end of Act 2||
hearty yarrow
I was referring there to specifically 'they clearly meant something by doing the...
It did not come across like this is what im saying
long hearth
my apologies 😔
vale hedge
I really like the idea that even ||if they're not really real, what they did and...
and I think it means alot to the game's vibe and story that Maelle and Verso is still willing to go through everything in this world
long hearth
side note apropos of nothing ||I was so insanely tilted by verso getting to stay the controllable camp character in act 3||
||the hell do you mean the only named act character who doesn't get to do that is the woman||
||one of those little things that's added into the big stuff to make me really sour on the game's treatment of women||
hearty yarrow
I really like the idea that even ||if they're not really real, what they did and...
||the story doesnt really treat them as unreal like it. Renoir still interacts with the painted people, even says sciel and lune speak truths. In verso's ending as well, the end of that world is not treated as the end od an unreal thing, it mattered. Regardless of whether it's real, what I personally find intriguing is whether thar matters. It was real to me for that first act right, the stories we read and watch and interact with are in some sense real in our minds. At least, to me they are. They live on etc.||
vale hedge
||the story doesnt really treat them as unreal like it. Renoir still interacts w...
Which makes me like the narrative even more! ||This is ultimately a story of escapism, running away from reality and living in your own world||
long hearth
||personally I am deeply disinterested in the game's metacommentary on art because games can't do that without self-sabotaging to some degree or another — and also I think E33's version is very basic theme-wise — but I get why people like it||
hearty yarrow
The ||treatment of women thing is odd to me, especially with how hard their stories hit me, the escapism Alicia feels, I've felt, especially Sciel's story came close. I've had a near death experience of drowning so uh...yea lol||
long hearth
Which makes me like the narrative even more! ||This is ultimately a story of esc...
||I hated Final Fantasy Tactics Advance too||
long hearth
The ||treatment of women thing is odd to me, especially with how hard their stor...
||The way I'd put it is that while Alicia is focused on by the narrative, it never respects her.||
vale hedge
||personally I am deeply disinterested in the game's metacommentary on art becau...
agree, it's a bit shallow but for a game like this, I think it's appropriately fitting. It's main focus isnt about art but rather how the family deals with grief, no?
hearty yarrow
||tbf metacommentary of art inside art is going to be sorta self sabotaging no matter the medium I think||
vale hedge
about what it means to be real, what it means to face your past and grief, etc etc
long hearth
I mean yes I concur
vale hedge
the art thing is a nice cherry on top
long hearth
that's why I think art shouldn't do it :p
hearty yarrow
I think it's neat
long hearth
at least not in the way e33 goes about it, there's subtler ways to comment on it that aren't as bad
hearty yarrow
It makea for good convs about art
long hearth
but games can't reaaaally do those without being artsy vn stuff or like, alan wake
hearty yarrow
Tbf some of my favorite games are meta lol
long hearth
and alan wake is a strange game
hearty yarrow
I talked to a bioshock 2 dev who to my surprise
Agreed that bioshock does it bad
Lol
long hearth
and that's I think key for metanarrative stuff you can basically fit One thing in and you need to orient like, key parts of the game around it (the more of which you do the more of which you can do)
hearty yarrow
The dev behind uh
long hearth
e33 kinda jams it into a more regular RPG so it can't land like Undertale can
hearty yarrow
Where the water tastes like wine
I also think e33's art points
Are less about games as art
And more about art as ||escapism||
Whereas undertale is a bit more meta about games in specific
Alike stanley parable
E33 is closer to alan wake where it's less about the specific medium
long hearth
||The way I'd put it is that while Alicia is *focused* on by the narrative, it n...
to elaborate on this slightly ||Maelle has her agency suppressed by Verso throughout Act 2 and then once she finally in theory has it back in Act 3... she's not even the controllable character for her own act, her most informative character story is side content and she only gets to actually exercise it with Renoir's permission.||
hearty yarrow
And more about what making art means
long hearth
||and then verso goes to suppress it anyway and is in fact correct to do so because Life to Love is a better outcome for Maelle specifically in the long run||
hearty yarrow
||tbf the ending choice is either character suppressing the other||
long hearth
||that's why I think it has contempt for women, even without discussing Aline being the actual worst stereotype of a grieving mother I've seen outside of french literature in 20 years||
hearty yarrow
||I'm unsure if it is better for Maelle. Seeing a lot of myself in her I'm...I mean I'm glad to be here but it was a lot of lucky encounters along the way to actually make it out.||
long hearth
||tbf the ending choice is either character suppressing the other||
||Yeah but when Maelle does it it's at least like, her turn. If Verso does it, Maelle has never had any agency throughout the entire game, you know?||
hearty yarrow
||I'd have chosen the painting in a heartbeat||
long hearth
||And this is when she's ostensibly the damn protagonist in the Act actually named after her||
||(and she doesn't even get to be the primary camp character for it for ????)||
hearty yarrow
I mean the whole party is the protag
long hearth
||I don't really agree with that? I think you can argue that it's Verso or Maelle or both but everyone else is secondary to those two||
||I argue it's Maelle because if I agree that it's Verso I will descend into genuine hatred for the studio over their favouritism for their precious (awful) baby boy||
||but I acknowledge you can also make the case for Verso||
hearty yarrow
Protag/antag is not who is good and who is bad lol
long hearth
...yeah, neither am I?
that's not what I'm saying?
I'm saying you can make an argument as to who is the 'true' core character of the narrative
hearty yarrow
Like the whole party is a group of protagonists
They all move the plot forwards
And we see it from all their perspectives
long hearth
sure but any character can move the plot forward, a pov character does not a protagonist make, the protagonist is the 'principal' character who the plot turns around?
like I think calling them all protagonists, while something you can do, kind of elides how much narrative attention ||Maelle and Verso|| get in comparison to the rest of their party
hearty yarrow
It's the characters that move the plot forwards and face the most adversity
wild venture
The true ending is the one where I never finished the game.
hearty yarrow
Which they all do
long hearth
The true ending is the one where I never finished the game.
wise of you
long hearth
feel like if one character has 50 lines and another has 500, most of them in the most pivotal scenes and you're discussing which is the protagonist it is kind of a non-question but maybe that's my structure-focused perspective speaking?
hearty yarrow
I just dont count lines for this
long hearth
like those two have a lot more lines and a lot more scenes
hearty yarrow
If we count lines I think ||gustave|| isn't a protag
long hearth
I agree
hearty yarrow
Lol
long hearth
he isn't
wild venture
But one ending is more gross then the other I prefer not to
long hearth
to me, calling someone a protagonist isn't talking about their relationship to the reader but rather how much the story turns around them specifically
which I mean, from that description I imagine you can see why I say it's those two and not the others
wild venture
I do not like her ending
hearty yarrow
A protagonist doesn't have to be one for the whole time
It can change and mold
It's why I said at the end you have ||two||
But you have five for most of it
||six with gustave||
long hearth
I would also argue that you simply can't have five protagonists but again, this is like, structurally focused perspective
hearty yarrow
By the end you kinda don't even have ||two||
You have ||one (whichever char you pick), the other becomes the antagonist of course||
long hearth
like the way I look at it is that a story is a machine and a protagonist is a very large cog
hearty yarrow
Multiple protags is not a new thing
long hearth
if you put lots of very large cogs in the machine will explode
Sure, but five is a lot
and usually there's one main one - it's where we get like, deuteragonist and tritagonist from
long hearth
the 'secondary' protagonists
hearty yarrow
Or lotr
long hearth
every narnia book has one main protagonist
hearty yarrow
That makes 7
long hearth
Oh, yeah I mean to be clear
once you've finished a story, you can totally swap out protagonists
lucy's story was finished in the lion, witch and the wardrobe
so she wasn't the protagonist of later books
the reason I argue ||gustave was never a protagonist is that I think the story was still secretly focusing on and revolving around Maelle over him even in Act 1||
not because I think ||the protagonist can't die and be replaced||
wild venture
|| when she enslaves and keeps her brother alive kinda weird || her ending
hearty yarrow
Lion's not the first book tho
long hearth
|| when she enslaves and keeps her brother alive kinda weird || her ending
||have you considered that maybe he deserves it :P||
||#video-games message||
hearty yarrow
There's two protags in the first one
hearty yarrow
I'm going by world chronology yes
long hearth
I mean if we're talking narrative structure surely authorial chronology should take precedent?
anyway yeah, deuteragonists are well established and very common and dual protagonist can work, but in practice it usually ends up as like uhh
did you ever read the Wind on Fire series?
hearty yarrow
No
long hearth
that's probably the best example of dual protagonist I can think of where they basically tag team swap centrality from arc to arc
but you don't have like, both be central at the same time usually because that's messy and finicky and kinda awkward
and usually one of them will be the 'main' protagonist for any given book with the other having a more secondary role
hearty yarrow
With omniscient viewpoints you can have quite some protags
long hearth
huh
hearty yarrow
Like GoT does that ofc
wild venture
I'd argue vegeta is a second protagonist
long hearth
you know I can't actually think of an omnisicient third person narrator atm
long hearth
I'd argue vegeta is a second protagonist
I'm not arguing against the existence of deuteragonists to be clear, rather than protagonist means something fairly specific structurally and while it can be many things, in normal framings and structures (which E33 largely is, up until the last parts of Act 3) it's usually a singular character
hearty yarrow
Potter as bad as the books are has omniscient stuff in it
long hearth
dual protagonists technically exist but are in practice usually just trading the protagonist and deuteragonist hat between each other IME
hearty yarrow
It starts with things potter shouldnt know
And also at times switches just not often
long hearth
yes no you're right the philosopher's stone opening is both iconic and also omniscient
I remember now
long hearth
yeah I wasn't counting *accidental *switches to omniscient lul
which I knew she did
but yeah first chapter of philostone, good remembering
hearty yarrow
Like GoT essentially does it
Constant char switching you know too much as an audience
Compared to what they do
long hearth
I would distinguish a broad ensemble from third person omniscient personally
but again, I'm a stickler for structure
hearty yarrow
That's fair
I'm not
Lol
Protag radical
The gym is the protag to my weight loss
Food is the antag
long hearth
but again, I'm a stickler for structure
fun fact: romance novel readers will literally hunt down and kill the author of any novel that deviates from the extremely strict structure the genre has
hearty yarrow
How omniscient of a 3rd person narrator is d&d
wild venture
Food is the antag
Ozempic is the antihero
hearty yarrow
I'm on it
It's kinda the hero
Waking up not hungry is
Pretty big
It's also kinda all it does lol
long hearth
fun fact: romance novel readers will literally hunt down and kill the author of ...
meet cute -> first refusal -> acceptance of the quest -> three dates/raising the stakes -> second refusal -> crisis -> dark night of the soul -> sacrifice -> declaration -> denouement
if anyone's curious
deviate from this and your romance novel not only won't sell you may be murdered both metaphorically on twitter and also IRL
structure is very important 
hearty yarrow
What if I just ignore twitter and do something else
Death of the audience just as true as death of the author
wild venture
meet cute -> first refusal -> acceptance of the quest -> three dates/raising the...
You just described rent a girlfriend
long hearth
I just described about 99% of romance stories :v
wild venture
The notebook is the 1%
hearty yarrow
||have you considered that maybe he deserves it :P||
||https://discord.com/chann...
Btw do you actually think he deserves it
long hearth
this structure is what distinguishes a romance novel from a story with romance in it
long hearth
Btw do you actually think he deserves it
||nah that's a joke I just hate him||
long hearth
||that it's an objectively horrifying thing to happen to anyone and sandfall put a lot of effort into selling that with audio and shot selection is a big part of why I'm so hardline on 'yeah they clearly have an ending that they think 'should' be taken, for all there's no 'good ending''||
hearty yarrow
This reminds me of a dutch book that is just
About nothing
Cause the author was told you can not write a book about nothing
Where nothing exciting happens
So he did
And it's a classic
wild venture
About nothing
Story of my life
long hearth
literary fiction can do anything but literary fiction is chiefly written for other novelists
hearty yarrow
It's just a book about 10 evenings of some dude's life
Who does nothing
Lol
It just kinda ends
No payoff
No conclusion
long hearth
and also an extremely distressingly large proportion of literary fiction is contemporary fiction about male lit professors sleeping with their students
hearty yarrow
Tbf sandfall itself argues they dont prefer one ending over the other right
long hearth
they argue there isn't a good ending
hearty yarrow
What kind of lit fiction are you reading LOL
long hearth
I will hm, okay so I do have a kinder way to put this hang on
wild venture
I prefer his ending lol
long hearth
basically I think ||when they first put it together, they were concerned about people autopicking Maelle's ending because of Gustave, so they ended up going really hard on the audio and shot selection for Maelle's ending to show how uncanny and awful it is||
||but the problem is this has accidentally made it so Verso's ending looks way better as an outcome||
||I don't think it was fully intentional but the game ends up being very didactic about the player answer to the dilemma anyway||
hearty yarrow
Tbf when I first like
Went to look at broader stuff
I saw a lot of people argue for her ending
long hearth
||Yeah, because of Gustave right?||
hearty yarrow
I dont really care what the popular opinion is ofc
long hearth
||And Lumiere in general. And I think they were trying to counterweight that but I don't think it really worked.||
hearty yarrow
It just intrigued me lol
wild venture
Gustave was the true main character 😭
long hearth
||Gustave was Maelle's supporting character even in his own Act-||
||I exaggerate, slightly, but also kinda||
hearty yarrow
basically I *think* ||when they first put it together, they were concerned about...
All we have to go on for this is what sandfall says kinda and idk if they said anything about this
wild venture
I couldn't forgive them I couldn't play for a couple weeks
hearty yarrow
Like death of the author yes
long hearth
They're not going to, much like how like
long hearth
Druckmann managed to stay quiet about TLOU's ending for years until the fans finally got to him
it's an insanely stupid self-own to give canonical answers about game ending disputes in the fandom
wild venture
I'd rather not talk about that abomination
hearty yarrow
Ye but arguing how it was made is kinda moot
long hearth
as far as I know all they've said ||is that there is no 'good ending' which I mean, as we discussed earlier, was impossible either because of who Verso is or because of who the Dessendres in general are||
Right, it's a theory to explain what's actually there
long hearth
||Which ends up being pretty heavy-handed on, 'yeah Maelle's ending is suicide'||
wild venture
I thought verso was just a Gustav clone at first
long hearth
What kind of lit fiction are you reading LOL
to return to something more lighthearted, this is uh, just kind of a known problem in the field
wild venture
Kinda like the Sao ending of keeping him alive for hundreds of years but he wanted to die and erase his memories but they didn't.
long hearth
turns out a lit phd doesn't actually make you better at picking topics to write about
hearty yarrow
Oh you mean lit fiction as in
long hearth
it's not... that common in absolute numbers but in relative numbers it's disturbingly frequent
long hearth
oh yeah I mean the artsy stuff
mostly written by professors and postgrads and people with sources of income other than writing
hearty yarrow
Oh ye
I mean plenty of em are
I mean bad
You just cant put em under the YA genre of bad
long hearth
they're bad in a different way
YA can manage to make giant robots boring with terrible prose
hearty yarrow
So I assume lit fiction as the academic genre is the propose solution of a trashcan for this genre lol
long hearth
literary fiction can write the most beautiful words you've ever seen about the most boring take imaginable
hearty yarrow
Hm
mystic wave
you guys enjoy stories right? have you played 1000xresist?
clear python
yea
long hearth
I got a decent bit into it but haven't gone back to it for a while, I should finish it at some point but I was originally playing it to write an essay on and I felt distinctly too white to actually do that after getting that far in
dense kindle
I should continue citizen sleeper I hear it had a decent story
though now that I think about it, story is often like, the third reason I play games
hearty yarrow
I got a decent bit into it but haven't gone back to it for a while, I should fin...
What study you in btw
Like I assume the media studies mention and essay means an actual course is going on lol
long hearth
oh, nah I write essays on indie games sometimes as a web thing I'm 31 while I would like to go back to university to get a proper lit undergrad masters - my actual background is... a hodgepodge
I started writing it out and I got like six lines in
long hearth
basically a combo of college classes, university classes and professional training + practice
hearty yarrow
I published some during an internship lol
My degree is a complex mess a bit
English literature/culture master degree with a specialization in historical game studies
It's
mystic wave
shouldnt you finish the whole thing before making essay?
long hearth
I didn't actually finish my degree because I decided to try and sell out and fully switch to a csci degree only to learn I genuinely hate programming
hearty yarrow
A lot of words
long hearth
shouldnt you finish the whole thing before making essay?
I mean I never wrote that essay
I stopped playing because I was like 'yeah I'm too white to write that essay' and then I didn't have a particular reason to play it when I was busy IRL at the time
mystic wave
oh sorry i thought the six lines thing was the esssay whoops
long hearth
oh, no I mean I got six lines into explaining my background before realising that was completely overkill, very silly and would also likely partially dox myself
so I deleted it and replaced it with 'hodgepodge'
https://www.tumblr.com/lisafication/732382634693574656/closing-thoughts if you want to read one of the essays in question this is the most widely read one
uh
wow I didn't expect that to unfurl let me just kill that (huge spoilers for coffin etc.)
mystic wave
maybe you can play it just to see what it has to say! its really good
hearty yarrow
Endless backlog
long hearth
yeah I'm sure a lot of people in this channel can sympathise 
hearty yarrow
I've published some stuff edited some other stuff
long hearth
right now I'm playing through RT and then I have to play FF7 Rebirth
hearty yarrow
My thesis is somewhere out there
Both ba and ma
Lol
My BA is very
Dry tho
Very much about
Literary definitions
What is an unreliable narrator
And how does it function in games
Oops
hearty yarrow
Ye
Both
BA compared games to contemporary definitions of unreliable lit
Master compared games to eachother and how they (re)present history
And what that may or may not mean
long hearth
good topics 
you should write some more - personally I find writing pop essays a lot more fun because you don't get marked down for breaking the rules in order to make delivery more entertaining
the opposite, really
so writing to hold the reader's attention becomes a pretty engaging exercise in humour and similar tools throughout
clear python
reject modernity, embrace tradition
---{ Graphics }---
☐ You forget what reality is
☐ Beautiful
☑ Good
☐ Decent
☐ Bad
☐ Don‘t look too long at it
☐ MS-DOS
---{ Gameplay }---
☑ Very good
☐ Good
☐ It's just gameplay
☐ Mehh
☐ Watch paint dry instead
☐ Just don't
long hearth
god I wish we could kill numeric ratings for games across the industry
clear python
or pro/con lists…
long hearth
also awful yeah
write a review and then do one line summarising why people should or shouldn't play it at the end (I will allow one each for more divisive games), leave this score stuff out of it 😩
mystic wave
reject modernity, embrace tradition
---{ Graphics }---
☐ You forget what realit...
ms dos arts actually cool though
ocean iris
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e8WrmOibpM
is this actually gonna be first person doe?
hearty yarrow
I've written more
Did a series of games as literature for my internship
Wrote plenty essays before the thesis stuff too
Bloodborne's imagined narrative, the last of us (used as an exploration of controlling characters), some silly goofy lists for a student paper I worked for, and whatever
Wrote about authorship a while back
@long hearth tagging cause you said I should write more lol
I havent written in a bit
Job and whatnot
Mostly been recording covers instead
long hearth
the last of us is kinda funny in that there is a specific really good topic for tlou2 to write about wrt game design and narrative that it is uniquely suited for
but every single games journalist wrote like three articles on it, killing it as a discussion so hard the topic name became a meme (ludonarrative dissonance)
and yeee that's fair, good to hear you're still at it though
clear python
i always wanted to write essays but actually i‘m quite content with short-ish reviews. Stops me from rambling
long hearth
it's I think generally critical to length that the topic actually be able to support that length
I think reviews in the vein of 'should you play this' generally benefit from being short because it's a fairly simple question, honestly
hearty yarrow
Tbf ludonarrative dissonance is kinda a meme
I did write about it
But it's also kinda a meme
It's a term from like 2003
That has sorta died
It's a debate that kinda never took place
I stole that line
From Frasca
hearty yarrow
2000 even god this essay is old
long hearth
Tbf ludonarrative dissonance is kinda a meme
it is but it is also I think a fair critique to levy at certain specific games despite the meme and it is an interesting topic
this essay is funny though, thanks for the link yes this makes complete sense of course this is the history
to elaborate on that slightly I think that games almost always have multiple competing objectives and when those come into direct conflict it's a) an interesting topic b) genuinely fair to critique the game over c) genuinely rare
c) is the stickler there, the term gets hella overused
hearty yarrow
The history is a bit more complex than frasca
Clint hocking sorta dug it back up
To hate on bioshock lol
Claiming the whole like
System with the
What are they called
The girls you kill for the energy
Claiming that that
Was dissonant
Cause in his eyes the math wise perfect way was to do that (which is wrong) and the game's story punishes for it
I remembered it wrong
It was that you have a choice with them but not the plot
Either way uh
It was stupid lol
hearty yarrow
to elaborate on that slightly I think that games almost always have multiple com...
I do agree here
I just kinda hate the term
long hearth
god that's where it was first used yeah I can't really blame you
clear python
I think reviews in the vein of 'should you play this' generally benefit from bei...
I think the question I wanna answer more is „Is this game good“, since the „Should you play it“ depends on more than just reviews. But I also don‘t really read essays, partially because I was burned by the bad ones and haven‘t read great ones. Maybe just not my genre; I do enjoy some review(er)s on backloggd though, some can write in a pretty entertaining way (or just have good™️ thoughts)
hearty yarrow
It's also the term is just kinda bad
It's not entirely dissonance it's
You kill 5000 people and the game suddenly cares about the next one
It's mechanics and story kinda
Not relating with eachother
It's gta 5 stars
Into a story mission
Lol
The army killed you and then it's like 'Im a small time criminal'
The more open a game is the more it can run into this in a sense
It's more an issue of player agency vs plot
clear python
oh wasnt that the entire ‚issue‘ with tomb raider 2013?
mystic wave
i feel so ludo in tetris, i experience tetris effect
clear python
lara cries a lot and then slaughters 100 bandits
is there ludonarrative dissonance in 1000x, miko
mystic wave
do not say that in this house
clear python
wtf?
hearty yarrow
Tbf that's
Not really dissonance
It's bad writing
Cause the game is linear
You dont really choose not to
The dissonance can be the point in a way
Last of us tries that
Spec ops does it
But often it's kinda
mystic wave
is there ludonarrative dissonance in 1000x, miko
no no we get ludonarrative harmony
hearty yarrow
Regular action flick bad writing where suddenly a kill matters
After killing 27383373838 people
rustic falcon
reject modernity, embrace tradition
---{ Graphics }---
☐ You forget what realit...
please... my steam review... it is very sick
clear python
LOL
clear python
It's bad writing
idk i feel like a lot of shooters cannot practically justify what‘s happening in them anyway. Or if they try, it‘s paper-thin (oh your enemies are zombies/infected/aliens/arabs (if you‘re playing bf4))
mystic wave
in the form we usually see it its bad writing yeah but it can be a good concept if executed well
rustic falcon
people talk a lot about how drakengard "subverts" this by having you mowing down enemies and even displaying a counter for the amount of people youve killed on the screen
and then all the characters you play as are terrible people and also get no happy ending lol
mystic wave
thats peak and all but what if.....
only the terrible people gets the happy endings
clear python
omg this is just like real life…
mystic wave
itll be peak kino ludo all at once
clear python
people talk a lot about how drakengard "subverts" this by having you mowing down...
Yeah and there‘s stuff like Prey that… preys on you to click every button you can, so one of them kills a friend. But idk I don‘t find these aspects usually interesting because games aren‘t real life and some aspects are subverted mire creatively than others
hearty yarrow
oopsies
fathom juniper
is this actually gonna be first person doe?
yup
running on gzdoom
clear python
OH JESUS H CHRIST
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638031423340806185/1396...
i think that‘s what‘s happening inside the large hadron collider
mystic wave
tidb, language!!
clear python
you’re not my mom, miko!!! even though i wish!!
mystic wave
erm
woven breach
ocean iris
yup
running on gzdoom
that is so god damn sick
dense kindle
yup
running on gzdoom
I'm gonna have to see more to decide if its good
green scaffold
Damn Arkham City be massive in comparision to Asylum but I already dig it. I mean it has catwoman so that's an instantly better game but it seems like they went tier above in every possible department
clear python
dense kindle
I wonder how many people have to touch a trailer before it goes live
clear python
i love doing math
one of my favorite things to do is multiply things by a thousand
1000 x something, if you will
austere wadi
People going into the culinary industry were told math wasn't important and then I had classmates in school who couldn't do unit conversions.
"How many ounces is half a cup?" "...Homie."
mystic wave
in all fairness, no sane cook would use imperial units!!
austere wadi
You do when your recipe says "1 Cup of melted butter."
clear python
i only fill up at gas stations that have cups as their measurement unit
austere wadi
Look, we work in the evironment in which we find ourselves.
mystic wave
no wonder gordon ramsay is so angry
austere wadi
If if makes you feel any better there's virtually zero volume measurements in recipes in my personal baking cookbook and it's all grams.
Yep, biscuit recipe has 7 discrete ingredients and they're all little gs.
clear python
about every year, google receives the query „density of milk“ from me
austere wadi
All I know is that the whole milk generally available to me is definitely slightly denser/heavier than water but all the recipes I ever see assume it's the same.
Absolutely maddening.
I've converted to volume and back to weight in order to actually get accurate measurements.
dense kindle
apparently the newblood rpg is still ticking along
rustic falcon
Having a fire DoT team is fun... until the enemy starts absorbing fire
"no u"
if the expedition fails why are they just not waiting for the next one? are they stupid?
green scaffold
https://youtu.be/Q06eAkcNJEg?si=jCXpeW90WabAQn0e Now that is a name I haven't seen in a while
green scaffold
i wish i still cared
Welllllll you cared enough to post the news sooooo 
green scaffold
The Jericho one, so roughly 2 decades ago yeah
fathom juniper
also
phew that's a spicy trailer right there
oh i can already tell it's on ue5
looking at those gameplay clips
jade yacht
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/496186278690422792/1396982705367023646/...
FALLEN LONDON!! i should get back
mystic wave
lets not go to london it is a silly place
jade yacht
yeah but when it sinks into the earth and the bat folks come out
woven breach
ngl, I can see myself spend hours theorycrafting teams in E33. But fire DoT team has my heart. It's great that they just die without you doing anything 
rustic falcon
another one o my friends finished the game yesterday
she was not looking stuff up online, so she came up with some incredible support builds
sciel was buffing everyone at the steep cost of 0 AP, then using intervention to make them play immediately. lune's elemental genesis will now demolish everything in one turn, its almost sad to watch
she was using lune's weapon that gives random stains on free aim shots, and at that moment i understood why people are addicted to gambling. i was at the edge of my seat waiting for all 4 types to appear and it wasnt even me playing LOL
she did one-shot a few bosses which made me sad. well, now you have to look up videos of what the mechanics actually are, since you skipped it all 
austere wadi
she did one-shot a few bosses which made me sad. well, now you have to look up v...
I will take this every single time over Nier: Automata's "No, we're going to keep the boss alive until all of their dialogue and phases have played out."
Also FFVIIR.
rustic falcon
sometimes i think its important to see the phases/dialogue the characters have in them
also just checked, she messaged me on 12:30 to say she can stream a bit of side quest stuff, nothing major
few hours laterrrr at 23:00 she finished the game
how time flies
as for the ending ||she chose "a life to paint" first||. as for side content, ||i hope she will eventually get to beating simon and clea,|| who ive been referring to as The Character so i dont reveal too much to everyone else who is also playing with my theorizing and rambling. so she sent me this
(she is not wrong)
such is the nature of our current conversation about it
I’ve been experiencing such strong post-game ennui. they’re doing this to me tomorrow 🖌️🥀
rustic falcon
I do actually think I haven’t felt this way since I first finished nier
||thaumaturge… I’m not leaving you forever. Just a little more expedition 33…||
rustic falcon
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/817270982191874081/1397432563626410186/...
Parry it! Parry it! Please survive! Parry it! Dodge, Gustave!
woven breach
"You can kill me fifty times over, but I only need to kill you ONCE!"
...was my mindset
rustic falcon
“oh no this boss can kill you in one hit!” Wrong. Gradient Attack
woven breach
funnily enough
I forgot I had that
:D
like the enemy almost died and I saw the gradient points glowing
I went
oh right, I had that
rustic falcon
On one hand, parrying attack combos successfully feels so good. On the other hand,
Stendhal
silk abyss
Do yall know the Og quick time event rpg
@fathom juniper played ready or not with my best friend for 5 hours
Where loving it
austere wadi
Do yall know the Og quick time event rpg
Super Mario RPG.
woven breach
Do yall know the Og quick time event rpg
gonna take a shot at the dark
Legend of dragoon?
austere wadi
Paper Mario 64 my beloved is its successor.
silk abyss
Super Mario RPG.
Yes
And paper Mario
Also Mario and Luigi series
Notice how it’s all Nintendo
mystic wave
she was using lune's weapon that gives random stains on free aim shots, and at t...
gambling
the dialog at the casino in gestral village should have taught you this!!
woven breach
I fought ||sirene|| and it was beautiful
so beautiful in fact
I missed my parry a bunch of times
and Lune couldn't fight for 90% of the battle
||which is hilarious considering who killed her in the cutscene||
mystic wave
||I mean that fits the preflight cutscene too! Is this ludo?||
mystic wave
i think i uh...messed up
just started the last boss in e33
i overleveled. im 1 shotting it
rustic falcon
Yeah lmaooo
I guess that’s why you can set your damage cap and adjust enemy health
Which I was like. Who would want to fight an enemy with 200% more hp??? I know now.
mystic wave
||when act 3 started, most of the side content i checked out were wayy to hard. so i leveled a bit to challenge them. now im discovering all those are just stronger than the last boss||
rustic falcon
what side content did you do?
mystic wave
||golgra||
rustic falcon
Owowow
mystic wave
||some of the huge world map bosses, i nthe sea and giant snake in the sky||
||i didnt do tower though, i wanna see the ending before i somehow get distracted by other games||
mystic wave
||golgra||
||kinda cheesed this with maelle sword that gives her shields. it was a loong fight||
rustic falcon
I may have said this yesterday but I made my friend go to ||renoir’s drafts so we can see The Abyss but as it turns out all the enemies there are insane. But actual papa was a pushover||
||she was running around free-aiming at enemies to stun them, getting items, and running again and I swear it was actually scary 😭 felt like running around corridors in a horror movie. Narrowly escaping The Horse||
mystic wave
lmao
rustic falcon
||kinda cheesed this with maelle sword that gives her shields. it was a loong fi...
Every build I see online uses this but I have seen none of my friends who play it use it
It looks cool
But so do her other skills. What finesse! what grace!
mystic wave
||hmmm i knew this game felt like nier from the start but||
||choose who you'll fight as? really||
fathom juniper
Ah crap
The confidential cia files are happening here again
rustic falcon
||i feel like automata is more gimmicky. youre choosing an ending to get an ending and another ending. this fight (especially if youre overleveled) basically feels like a slightly longer way of just picking an ending||
mystic wave
mystic wave
||i still havent chose lmao||
mystic wave
||ultimately, i think maelle should get to decide if she wants to get better or not||
rustic falcon
i know its more of an easter egg, ||but being too overleveled and not seeing A2's menu screen when you hack her because you accidentally kill her instantly when hacking|| is still kind of a bummer
mystic wave
||let time take its course and maybe she'll change her mind||
rustic falcon
"oh youre at the final boss you should do this cool thing because its so cool!" nope. she's died
rustic falcon
||let time take its course and maybe she'll change her mind||
||just 5 more minutes dad i cant pause the game just 1 more round ok||
a "good" ending could be achieved so easily if all of these people talked and listened to each other but thats no fun is it
mystic wave
there wouldnt be a story in the first place
rustic falcon
it definitely would have been a different one
fathom juniper
||https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/512790960816783363/1397557031342178356/...
I always liked how they framed it as a fighting game
mystic wave
bim why you clicking on the cia files
austere wadi
[keyboard sounds] "I'm in."
austere wadi
I work weekend mornings my time.
mystic wave
this is amazing
anyway, i finished e33
||it was an underwhelming final stretch, gameplay wise, and story wise||
fathom juniper
this is amazing
Dude the lean 
rustic falcon
i feel like ||the final stretch might feel more underwhelming the longer you take to get there. if you start the final quest and then youre like okay but first! let me fight a giant snake and my sister and a potato paintbrush and a ball.|| and then you finish the game
the sense of urgency peters out just a little bit. but this is an issue a lot of games suffer from imo
mystic wave
agree!
rustic falcon
all in all i liked the story. i like certain layers that are very unclear until ng+/doing a lot of sidequests and It's All Connected
mystic wave
theres a lot of great moments. especially conversations in the camp are really good
austere wadi
Hold up.
Trying to get that video Bim posted to play (I'm getting audio, video is a still of Michael Jackson in a PS1-era corner store) got me opening up VLC and I think I found my 14k damage footage.
hearty yarrow
I may have said this yesterday but I made my friend go to ||renoir’s drafts so w...
||Renoir draft is the last area in the entire game 😭||
rustic falcon
but i wanted to see it 
hearty yarrow
i feel like ||the final stretch might feel more underwhelming the longer you tak...
||I do also think it's fine to steamroll it by being there later it does sorta fit the vibe there cause at that point the party has a God with em basically lol||
rustic falcon
yeah definitely, its just sad to miss dialogue
hearty yarrow
Yea
austere wadi
I FOUND IT.
rustic falcon
||die dad 🌹🥀||
austere wadi
Ooold Hades footage, I think of the Big Bad Update, in which I rabbit punch Dad with Aphrodite's Aid for 14602 damage.
Single hit damage that I don't think is now attainable in H1.
austere wadi
Yup!
Had crits, Aphro/Athena Duo providing another fat crit chance, backstab crits.
The works.
rustic falcon
i also have ancient footage when sure footing was pommable so you could just stand in traps and take exactly 0 damage
mystic wave
maybe i'll play the alma game now
rustic falcon
how's fear?
mystic wave
wrong alma game
austere wadi
Epic Sure Footing remains one of the few S+ tier boons in H1.
rustic falcon
how's MHW?
mystic wave
LMAO
austere wadi
Oh, that looks gorgeous.
mystic wave
how can you not like va11halla 😔
rustic falcon
maybe its just not my sense of humor or story telling
it felt like it was trying too hard and at some points, just gross
mystic wave
ah...
austere wadi
Video should be finished-finished in a bit, but I can click on it right now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lmnfQpHa30
rustic falcon
also the minigame for making drinks was not that engaging...
which i guess it isnt in most of these games
and i dont want to compare it to the red strings club in story because they have very different purposes and story, but the mechanic for making drinks in that game is so peak
ocean iris
man i friggin love the old republic
both kotor and swtor
austere wadi
I want to try KOTOR and then I'm like "...But the chance to miss swinging at a door?"
mystic wave
happens to the best of us
ocean iris
I want to try KOTOR and then I'm like "...But the chance to miss swinging at a d...
it genuinely isnt that hard
mystic wave
to miss swinging at doors?
hearty yarrow
mystic wave
maybe its just not my sense of humor or story telling
i guess you didnt play much of it then?
rustic falcon
i 100% it
mystic wave
oh!
what i like is how you have these characters that seem to engage in very questionable things
and humanises them
theres this prostitute, this grating journalist, the police who works for megacorporations
the choices available to people in an oppressive system lead them to where they are
clear python
i love softlocking games.... and diving into the (thankfully human readable) save files to try and save it...
rustic falcon
what i like is how you have these characters that seem to engage in very questio...
i see where youre coming from, but to me it fell flat on humanizing them
the journalist (?) is just kinda misogynistic and borders on harrassing this idol girl
i dont remember much else about him. also the android who has a child's body because "some people are into that" is an iffy concept to begin with but it also continued to suck
maybe if the game wasnt so jokey (in a way i personally did not like) it would land better
to me it felt shallow. maybe i played it at the wrong time and a replay will open my eyes, but i dont want to replay it LOL i was kinda disappointed with how hyped it was vs how i experienced it 
didnt mean it to be a cowboy but i guess it is now
austere wadi
it genuinely isnt that hard
It's almost about the philosophy of it at that point.
Sticking hard to TTRPG rules? I can respect that. But missing a door without some sort of disadvantage is just immersion-breaking.
fathom juniper
hybrid jetty
Sometimes it's just an evasive door
in tabletop rpgs "missing" isn't just actually not hitting it's also hitting and doing nothing substantial/grazing/the sun was in your eyes
dense kindle
Igmiss
maybe your firebolt wasn't cast good nuff to do proper damage to that wooden door, so it fizzled out
signal kayak
Look at what we're going to get for free
https://doublefine.itch.io/brutal-legend
fathom juniper
that's a nice gesture
but how does this work, really?
like - it's free on itchio but what about steam?
okay so it's still like 10 bucks on steam
so you can get it from itchio without drm?
legally and for free?
that's even better
but yeah - highly recommended 
it's worth playing especially now since...
well - you know - half of the supporting cast is dead and rob halford isn't getting any younger, you know?
signal kayak
No worries, GOG already got me covered
It's also on PS3 and 360 if anybody wants to get it on console
and possibly XOne and Series but at this stage just get a 360 or a PC, come on
ocean iris
Look at what we're going to get for free
https://doublefine.itch.io/brutal-legen...
wow the soundtrack is STACKED
Only this game could have had Carcass, Emperor and KMFDM in the soundtrack
silk abyss
what the hell is up with the Collective Shout drama with Itch.io and Steam?
Supposedly she’s a terf?
fathom juniper
Only this game could have had Carcass, Emperor and KMFDM in the soundtrack
Iced earth, motorhead, Judas Priest and many many other
That ost is genuinely 10/10
ocean iris
Iced earth, motorhead, Judas Priest and many many other
its kinda crazy this game still has the full soundtrack
fathom juniper
Right?
Meanwhile you can get a single player game delisted over a single song
There was a case like that recently
Forgot which game tho
ocean iris
I wonder what is stopping Valve from creating a payment processing alternative to MasterCard or Visa
do they just straight up nuke you if you even try
rotund umbra
it's more like how do you convince anyone to use it
like imagine you just decided to make a competitor to paypal
good luck with that
fathom juniper
And then there’s the fact that doing do would require them to put in A LOT of work in a field they’re not speccing in AND bring them one step closer to a monopoly
Which - no matter how much I like them - is always a bad thing
Also - didn’t just Apple go through this payment kerffufle?
Didn’t they get schwacked by the EU for blocking other payment processors?
ocean iris
like imagine you just decided to make a competitor to paypal
to be fair I dont use paypal at all
signal kayak
do they just straight up nuke you if you even try
green scaffold
craggy gyro
ready for this to be another unfinished rushed disaster
ocean iris
bahaha
clear python
https://youtu.be/pgNCgJG0vnY?si=MoZR3ZU6HIW1_aIs
I’m falling through the floor in anticipation
hearty yarrow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBMLuQXr6n4 idk if I posted this yet but it's a very good interview
fathom juniper
https://tenor.com/view/bard-shrug-dance-buff-gif-25063423
Ye that’s the guy!
fathom juniper
https://youtu.be/pgNCgJG0vnY?si=MoZR3ZU6HIW1_aIs
6
6 crashing helicopters, two planes and some other vehicles
not counting different camera angles and stuff
the meme that helicopters exist in games only to crash died years ago and they're just playing catchup to it
rustic falcon
i could install 100 bastions on my pc to occupy just over the space of 1 ffxv
https://open.spotify.com/album/2urhSHmCuo86uBSBxGJ4mT
more music... rejoicing
mystic wave
i could install 100 bastions on my pc to occupy just over the space of 1 ffxv
just install the chibi mode, duh!
silk abyss
Supposedly she’s a terf?
lol just found out the owner supported the movie cuties
So she’s a hypocrite