like it never tells you that it'll aggressively try to offer you two hammers and hermes
#h1-high-heat-strategies
shy plinth
The hammers I had a vibe for
I realized that if I kept skipping it, it would keep coming back
Particularly in ely if I had to choose between a hammer and a boon room for a duo I needed
lone bridge
i am a liberal wiki user lol
shy plinth
I have the wiki open all the time but it's kinda wrong kinda often
mossy zinc
I have the wiki open all the time but it's kinda wrong kinda often
So correct it then.
frozen spear
too much effort lol
shy plinth
Sounds like work
You can only obtain up to three of his boons in one run - with the third only available in Charon's shop in the Temple of Styx - and he never appears in a Trial of the Gods.
lone bridge
it takes like 30 seconds dear god
lone bridge
> You can only obtain up to three of his boons in one run - with the third only ...
thats correct
shy plinth
But "three of his boons" vs "seeing him three times" is not the same
I was operating under the first one
But it's the second
lone bridge
you can see him more than 3 times though
shy plinth
His doors can be offered
lone bridge
hence what i said
shy plinth
Yeah
shy plinth
What language would you use
mossy zinc
English.
shy plinth
Reasonable choice
lone bridge
idk, something along the lines of "you can only acquire 3 of his boons in one run"?
frozen spear
how about you can receive his boons twice minus styx
smh he should show up in trial though
shy plinth
Charon Hermes trial
frozen spear
what if he just adds +FO2 to every enemy if you spite him lol
so we can finally experience FO4
lone bridge
smh he should show up in trial though
trial with chaos and hermes lmao
frozen spear
chaos trial would be interesting if he debuffs you
mossy zinc
Just keep it simple and clarify that purging a boon from him doesn't mean you get another one.
frozen spear
tbh if purging hermes actually worked like what @shy plinth thought purging him would be an S tier play
shy plinth
I thought I was building my own hammer logic
frozen spear
since it would act as both free UC fodder and a free reroll
shy plinth
Instead I was just dumb as a bag of hammers
frozen spear
fated persuasion in shambles
shy plinth
"While Hermes rooms can be offered more than twice in a run, you can only obtain two Hermes boons as room rewards regardless of whether or not you purge any prior selections. There is an additional flat 50% chance for an additional Hermes boon to appear in the Styx shop even if you already have two."
frozen spear
nice
shy plinth
Concerns? Comments? Nyaanyaa?
mossy zinc
50% chance.
lone bridge
yeah specify
mossy zinc
Idk m half asleep ngl. Looks better than before.
frozen spear
add hermes vs anvil tbh
mossy zinc
Maybe add "for up to 3 Lord Hermes boons in a run".
lone bridge
damn it i accidentally burnt my toast
shy plinth
Should've had a greatest reflex
lone bridge
Maybe add "for up to 3 Lord Hermes boons in a run".
i dont think this is necessary, its redundant
mossy zinc
It's necessary.
lone bridge
no, its not. just modify the last sentence to say "an additional hermes boon"
shy plinth
Fixed it
mossy zinc
I've coached and taught and tutored more than enough people in my life. Trust me that it's necessary. 
lone bridge
no, im saying it isnt. modifying the initial sentence is enough. to add another sentence right after stating exactly what the previous sentence said is redundant and not proper style for wikis
shy plinth
So okay
Is the current one good
I have the wiki edit open
This is my penance for telling new players wrong things
frozen spear
looks good to me
mossy zinc
no, im saying it isnt. modifying the initial sentence is enough. to add another ...
I don't care ngl.
mossy zinc
Is the current one good
Looks good enough. Definitely an improvement.
shy plinth
I followed the advice in your previous discord link
shy plinth
It is done
mossy zinc
The "additional flat" is unnecessary tbh.
shy plinth
Oh I typed additional in the wrong place
sonic marlin
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/895495908437930014/985095897639698462/unk...
Guys how do you get like 15 encounter
Max it gives me is 6
neat sonnet
it's RNG?
i didn't even know
not pictured: me losing acorn about 5s before dad died - that's a new aspect to 32 for me! https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/895495908437930014/985098331485249557/unknown.png
hoary pasture
Guys how do you get like 15 encounter
This item is just 15
You can only get it with Stubborn Defiance
neat sonnet
cheers
hoary pasture
not pictured: me losing acorn about 5s before dad died - that's a new aspect to ...
You can put that JS point into HL, JS is very noticeable, ggs nonetheless, Tidal dash would’ve been nice
neat sonnet
noted! yeah, I didn't ever see poseidon, I had forced arti in asphodel to get hunter's mark (maybe not optimalm but hey, that was obscene anyhow) so no time to force him
hoary pasture
Yea should’ve forced Poseidon ideally there
Also idk if it’s intentional but pom your Jolted/Call
neat sonnet
ah yeah
i picked both up late
few if any poms by then showed for me
all of this is helpful though, it's appreciated :)
mossy zinc
Looks like a more than good enough build, albeit far from optimal.
cursive portal
Max it gives me is 6
Thats not even possible
sonic marlin
Guys I am done with every weapon at 8 heat, I do EM2 MM TD2
How shall I upgrade to 16 heat
Or shall I do 12 then 16
hoary pasture
How shall I upgrade to 16 heat
Try BP1 UC and look into one of BP2 EM3 TD3, if you plan on going further in heat later you could also get used to FO
This is more for #h1-discussion or #h1-builds-and-combat, #h1-high-heat-strategies is mainly for 32 Heat or higher
mossy zinc
How shall I upgrade to 16 heat
Whatever you want, it's only 16 Heat. Mess around with the pact and find something fun.
bright smelt
FO2 EM2 TD3 is cool to play around with
bad for slower weapons but good to get used to the pace
sonic marlin
FO2 EM2 TD3 is cool to play around with
I don't think I can do TD3
sonic marlin
Whatever you want, it's only 16 Heat. Mess around with the pact and find somethi...
That isn't an option, will find myself doing EM4 as "fun"
I just want the easiest combo
mossy zinc
That isn't an option, will find myself doing EM4 as "fun"
Sounds fine to me.
bright smelt
I don't think I can do TD3
that's fine
hoary pasture
You're not gonna clear TD3 consistently unless you practice it
cursive portal
sonic marlin
So still, what shall I do for 16 I got confused
mossy zinc
So still, what shall I do for 16 I got confused
Whatever you want.
If you're not sure how the pacts affect your run, 16 is a good Heat to just try anything you feel like doing and get some experience.
sonic marlin
I have a streak and don't want to end it tbh, sounds silly I know,
sonic marlin
Try BP1 UC and look into one of BP2 EM3 TD3, if you plan on going further in hea...
So just like what are your recommendations, oh Mike already provided I think I will go with that
quartz mantle
If you’re looking for an easy progression that will help you for learning 32 heat hat wrote up this progression guide https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/668865849079103539/884878890739335178/unknown.png
neat sonnet
Looks like a more than good enough build, albeit far from optimal.
had a feeling i was pretty far from the realm of things “optimal”, but i guess we can see the eris effect in full swing :p
mossy zinc
Well, a lot of things work at 32.
sonic marlin
Is BP the one that makes armoured foes have extra abilities
I think that this 16 seems pretty manageable
quartz mantle
Yes
dreamy star
is this a decent pact https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/722911776601014383/985239640170721370/20220611105015_1.jpg
shy plinth
It's solid though you're kinda splitting the difference between HL and FO
My instinct would be to either go full HL with no FO or full FO with HL1 CF0
Not sure what you're used to, but faster enemies and harder hitting enemies compound with each other
dreamy star
ic
I'll just go full hl then and see what happens
shy plinth
Full HL FO0 here is probably the most common first-time 32 clear
dreamy star
alright
shy plinth
V good pact
dreamy star
first time trying 32 heat so let's see how fast I die
shy plinth
What's the heat level you normally play at?
If you're used to 16s, yeah, it's a big jump lol
dreamy star
I beat 20 but I don't feel like stepping incrementally through heat levels because there's no bounties for doing so
shy plinth
You've cleared each weapon 20 times at 20 diff heat levels?
If no, you're probably still getting some bounties
dreamy star
nah I just play rail most of the time and it's the weapon I'm best at
shy plinth
So you can take smaller steps if you want
Even if you go above the gauge you'll still get the lower heat bounties
System gives you rewards based on lowest uncleared heat per weapon
But if you've already gotten 20 bounties on rail, sure, jump ahead
My first 32 was a big jump too and then after that I got more used to it by doing 24s and 27s to teach myself FO
neat sonnet
this is me when my bounties for every weapon except bow is <15 (bow is like 20)
dreamy star
Even if you go above the gauge you'll still get the lower heat bounties
oh, huh
I didn't know that actually
ig I'll train higher heat on bow then cause I'm the second best at bow
shy plinth
Lots of options, I mean there's no harm in jumping into a 32 on your best weapon and seeing how it feels
From there you can see how you want to proceed
Maybe you spike it first try, maybe you die in tartarus, most likely somewhere in the middle
shy plinth
From there you can scale it back to not get discouraged and learn the pacts as you go
neat sonnet
i've def done a loooot of dying in tartarus as i continue to learn the game while playing at 32
shy plinth
The week I took to learn FO involved lots and lots of dying
neat sonnet
yeah, i'm still not great at it (clearly), but we're getting there
dreamy star
oh my god I got paddy
frozen spear
cracked
dreamy star
bruh
I got 5 sacked
literally got dad down to half health in phase 2 too, with the td3 damage ticking down since the fight began
I literally could've beatn 32 heat first try if I didn't get rolled by rng
at least now I know hl5 isn't as bad as I thought it was
neat sonnet
there you go - you'll get it soon enough
forest token
getting 5 sacked is the worst feeling, esp on td3
forest token
that's just a reset lmao
dreamy star
I would've been happier dying to lernie than getting 5 sacked tbh
that's just a sad way to die on my first 32 heat run
dreamy star
goddamn
pseudo kernel
5 sack wr is like sub 8 i think
forest token
sub 10 5 sack
prob could've been 7/8 mins without 5 sack probably
pseudo kernel
yeah
forest token
the normal rooms are so much harder than the mini boss rooms
even tiny vermin is easier lmao
pseudo kernel
6:08 ely exit on that run
forest token
it do be like that
honest kernel
forest token
my fastest is right under 10 minutes only because hyper delivery beowulf
honest kernel
Dou, y'all are in a higher state of the game taking your times
jaunty falcon
5 sack wr is 7:33
frozen spear
bruh
I got 5 sacked
time to install speedrun mod
dreamy star
I'm waiting to do that after I get all cheevos
cause I downloaded the srcom save and it started granting me all the achievements until I save quit
frozen spear
lol nice
dreamy star
I've since done those achievements on my main save but I'm not touching that 100% save until I do everything myself lol
honest kernel
there is no achievement for getting the third statue?
dreamy star
there is
honest kernel
:0
dreamy star
I'm tryna get that rn
honest kernel
frozen spear
actually there isn't, just for 16 heat
dreamy star
oh what
frozen spear
but yeah I think doing 32 without mod would be a nice goal
dreamy star
nvm sorry
istg I saw an achievement called unlock all of skelly's prizes
honest kernel
but yeah I think doing 32 without mod would be a nice goal
i do that :D
im i whorty master? 
in fact, i doesn't even know how to put mods on hades
sorry, i don't speak english
anyway, i think the best way to beat 32 heat (in my experience) is the aspect of lucifer with that hammer that allows you to shoot 3 bombs instantly
hoary pasture
That's a pretty good combo
honest kernel
and put any boon of damage in special and.... is too easy... even easier if you get that hammer that bust the area damage of the bombs in 250
but with those 2 hammers you can do like a 652 of damage without boons
left prism
That only buffs the aura dmg from the special no also if it was a 250 flat that would be funny
Oh wait is not even the area dmg i just remembered
honest kernel
That only buffs the aura dmg from the special no also if it was a 250 flat that ...
yes, but when the bomb touch the floor, instantly does aura damage
left prism
It just hits farther
frozen spear
isn't it the pulse damage
honest kernel
It just hits farther <:bouldy:523329116934635534>
maybe... but i remember that do a buff damage...... or is'nt?
anyway, do 147 of damage every pulse is Nice, x3
plus the 6 explosions
is'nt fast, but is safe
left prism
Thats why i thought yeah
hoary pasture
A better hammer would be Targeting System
honest kernel
and is funny to see big explotion
left prism
Special good never seen the pulse used outside casual runs
hoary pasture
For example
honest kernel
I mean usually you're gonna be exploding them pretty quickly
the point is the explotion i guess
honest kernel
Special good never seen the pulse used outside casual runs
I guess im casual
honest kernel
I barely touch luci anyways
is funny to use, pretty funny beam, pretty funny boom
sonic marlin
Guys a question for a friend
From your experience, what is the best aspect for 32 heat
Semi speedrun
jaunty falcon
Beowulf, hestia
shy plinth
Eris
sonic marlin
What about rama
shy plinth
What is "semi speedrun"
Rama scales well with heat
But I dunno if it's usually considered "speedrun"
sonic marlin
What is "semi speedrun"
Like trying to get the best possible time
Like not just trying to do a clear
hoary pasture
Beo stronger on the modded boards
sonic marlin
No mods
shy plinth
Eris and Beo are the correct answers either way
sonic marlin
What configuration shall he use
shy plinth
The vods are there on the speedrun board, def worth checking out if you want to see pros at work
You definitely want FO2 and CF0
sonic marlin
You mean no convenient fees?
shy plinth
Yes
If you want to go fast you need to deal damage, if you want to deal damage you need boons and poms, if you want booms and poms you need to get them from shops (which you're taking anyway because free room), if you want to buy from shops you need normal prices
hoary pasture
And you shouldnt care about stuff that makes your enemies stronger as long as it doesnt slow you down
shy plinth
Yeah it looks like most of the speedruns are on hl5
If you're not getting hit then why not
jaunty falcon
Only pacts at 32 (in 32 heat speedruns) that directly affect speed are MM, UC sometimes, BP sometimes and EM3
HL and HS do make you play more carefully though
hoary pasture
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/841266682072530956/985282592087633950/Hades_Zyn3a1IOgX.png Your pact is pretty much this and
1 of EM3 or BP2
1 of UC or MM
Depending on the weapon
shy plinth
Compared to any heat at least, yeah, more carefully
Because on anyheat you faceroll stuff often enough
upper juniper
I'd only suggest it if you're going water gun and somehow all of your other slots are taken
pseudo kernel
Skill issue
sonic marlin
Guys why didn't anyone tell me about those two madlads in Elysium
EM3
I was shocked that I lost 2 dds
When Theseus reached second stage I expected his wheel to turn to Santa Claus wheel and fly but it was a blessing compared
And that Minotaur he actually became a thing
forest token
lmao em3 is a big shocker
forest token
em3 theseus is easier than normal theseus imo once you get used to it, the bull is a ton more difficult
upper juniper
I think theseus is just easier flatout in em3
frozen spear
hot take I think EM theseus is way worse than normal theseus
hoary pasture
Theseus is a lot of area of denial, and can chip you down pretty quickly if you’re not paying attention
hoary pasture
Theseus is half the reason you struggle with Asterius on EM3
frozen spear
yeah exactly
EM asterius is not that big of a deal when you have room to run around
forest token
em3 is difficult because of the bull not because of theseus lmao
frozen spear
but theseus's massive area denial makes asterius way worse
forest token
theseus makes it a bit more difficult obv because it's another boss
frozen spear
if EM3 was gold asterius and normal theseus it would be way easier
forest token
true
frozen spear
lol I swapped RI1 HS for AP2 and first athena boon is epic sure footing
dammit
wtf I can't kill myself on lava
pseudo kernel
🗿
upper juniper
frozen spear
AP2 forced me into pizza dash but it's lowkey doing a lot of damage
pseudo kernel
What's pizza dash
neat sonnet
passion?
frozen spear
ares
pseudo kernel
Blade dash gud
neat sonnet
ah nice
dreamy star
welp, ended up beating 32 heat second try https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/743191604935917684/985314892825362442/20220611154915_1.jpg
hestia is so fun
lime elk
248% heartbreak flourish wow
dreamy star
yeah
left prism
thats certainly a big special
raw cloud
thats a chonky special
shy plinth
welp, ended up beating 32 heat second try https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments...
Nice work!!
2nd time 32 when you hadn't gone above 20 before is v impressive
dreamy star
ty
I'll probably try 32 with eris and then rama next
sonic marlin
em3 theseus is easier than normal theseus imo once you get used to it, the bull ...
How, normal Theseus is really dumb I kill him in a matter of seconds
Normal Theseus u simply get close hot him make him spin non stop u don't even need to dodge spears
mossy zinc
How, normal Theseus is really dumb I kill him in a matter of seconds
It's a surprisingly common opinion at lower heats that EM Theseus is easier.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
Certainly not at high heat.
sonic marlin
In all cases it is harder than normal
In normal u shall stop cowering behind columns and just face him he turns into a helpless thug
mossy zinc
If a lot of people say they have an easier with him, who are we to tell them they don't. 
Idk for me it makes zero difference at those heats except the normal fight is faster since they both have less HP.
mossy zinc
No, they generally have higher max HP in EM.
sonic marlin
Is that the case in other bosses or only heroes
dawn comet
It's a surprisingly common opinion at lower heats that EM Theseus is easier.
I do get this. Forgetting about thesius spear or struggling with the dodge timing is a big source of damage from vanilla thesius. Whereas EM thesius just drives around the arena and leaves you alone for the most part.
mossy zinc
They're also not playing FO2 etc.
dawn comet
I do think em3 is harder but I flinch at the idea of em3 thesius being like a juiced-up version of vanilla thesius with e.g. a bow
sonic marlin
I do get this. Forgetting about thesius spear or struggling with the dodge timin...
But his run with tons of bullets in the arena, it is really annoying
dawn comet
I agree and I've taken much damage from it.
But I just remember the feeling of not having to constantly watch out for his targeting.
I'm not disagreeing with you, I can just empathise with the other pov
mossy zinc
When the win rate against both is 100%, neither is more difficult.
sonic marlin
When the win rate against both is 100%, neither is more difficult. <:dusa:522248...
In all cases u must win, but you are more likely to take more damage or even use a DD against EM3
Maybe a reason is that I only played EM3 with HL
sonic marlin
When the win rate against both is 100%, neither is more difficult. <:dusa:522248...
And which is faster to finish
mossy zinc
Losing a DD or not is irrelevant when you're still guaranteed to win the run.
sonic marlin
For me the fastest boss fight is normal heroes ends really quickly, like it is faster than a lot of mini bosses
left prism
They only have 1 shield phase so makes sense
sonic marlin
Exactly not getting impervious every two seconds
sonic marlin
Losing a DD or not is irrelevant when you're still guaranteed to win the run.
That is the measure for me in all cases I am winning 100%
mossy zinc
Is that the case in other bosses or only heroes
All bosses but Lernie get more HP.
forest token
How, normal Theseus is really dumb I kill him in a matter of seconds
Once asterius is out of the way a lot of the attacks are pretty telegraphed
The bombs are easy to dodge, you know when he's gonna shoot bullets out of the chariot
And he mostly runs around the perimeter of the arena dropping bombs
Also the second phase happens in this last quarter of hp so it's faster to burst down
Unless that quarter hp is the same as half hp normal theseus
If asterius is still alive then Theseus is a pain because he gets in the way but once the bull is gone then Theseus is easy
mossy zinc
Theseus phase 2 has 4500 HP. EM Theseus phase 2 has 3960 HP.
sonic marlin
And he mostly runs around the perimeter of the arena dropping bombs
Maybe, but for some reason all that red on the screen annoys me, like I can't see properly because of it
quartz mantle
EM3 Theseus is easier to kill but is definitely slower
He is way easier to ignore than regular Theseus
So you get to target down bull man without too much interference
dapper schooner
idk i used to think that em3 theseus was easier when i started playing
but now i think that hes definitely a lot worse to fight
non EM is super predictable and you basically never have to worry about anything hes doing
but EM one effectively reduces arena space by throwing bombs everywhere and sometimes catches me offguard when he drives through the middle of the arena
its just a lot more annoying to deal with than passive guy who chucks extremely telegraphed spears every 7 seconds
frozen spear
yeah the spears are a joke even on FO2, so easy to dodge
shy plinth
I cannot remember what it's like to fight non-EM lol
frozen spear
might as well throw on DC2 I think
lone bridge
hmmmm but then no fiery presence on rocket bomb
left prism
it messes with rocket fiery so if you can avoid, why not
frozen spear
idk I just like DC2 on any zeus attack
left prism
i like the pact would change cf1 to hs out of spite
lone bridge
but urns
lone bridge
maybe i will try hs instead of cf lmao, cf is annoying
mossy zinc
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/845087923779141682/985635607114031155/u...
Needs more RI4.
I'd turn on HS just for the fact that resetting your SD takes forever without it.
frozen spear
but dad pots
mossy zinc
but dad pots
You just don't tell anyone about those runs and erase them from your memory.
shy plinth
I've heard pots cause memory loss
mossy zinc
And who are you that we should believe you?
frozen spear
pots? what pots?
mossy zinc
No really, I mean who are you?
frozen spear
never heard of 150 damage pots
mossy zinc
150 damage whats?
frozen spear
150d pots are a myth created by athena to sell us more sure footing
quartz mantle
Hello i'm here to say take CF off thank you goodbye
frozen spear
another lucifer 50 gone at dad because no patty
I swear I've missed him like 5 times in a row now
patty rng is so frustrating
mossy zinc
I suggested guaranteeing Patroclus, because he swings runs so much, when they were discussing high heat modded rules, but evidently that never got added.
Blame them.
frozen spear
I see zero reason why he shouldn't be guaranteed
sure you can win without him at high heat but you can also PB on 3sack
either way he's pure rng and too much of a swing
shy plinth
Feels like he should either be hard included or hard excluded
mossy zinc
That were my thoughts, pretty much.
frozen spear
yes exactly
shy plinth
Looking at the modded rules, it seems like the specific changes are to remove lowrolls
But all the highrolls are included
quartz mantle
Or get better so you can win without Patty
frozen spear
yeah true
quartz mantle
sure you can win without him at high heat but you can also PB on 3sack
Also that’s not the point of the speedrun modpack
The point of speedruns isn’t to get a PB, it’s to go as fast as possible
Which sound the same but really aren’t
frozen spear
tbh aren't free rooms rng for that purpose too
quartz mantle
For example: a PB of 7:30 is much different than a PB of 7:00
frozen spear
since getting them is out of your control
quartz mantle
But at high heat your goal is to get a clear
And whether you get that clear in 15 minutes without popping your SD or get it past overtime on your last 10 hp it’s still a clear
Which is the fundamental difference between high heat and speedrunning
frozen spear
I mean I guess
I still strongly think that high heat would be way more enjoyable if modded was under a ruleset that either forced or excluded patty
quartz mantle
If you think that would be more enjoyable then play it like that
frozen spear
yeah but then I lose the ability to compare skill to other modded heat players
since it's under different rulesets
quartz mantle
If you want to compare your runs then you can use the same rule set as them
But it’s your choice of do you want to have fun or do you want to compare yourself to people based on a leaderboard
mossy zinc
Anyway, modded ruleset is better discussed on the speedrun server since that's their thing.
frozen spear
I just think it could be best of both worlds if early on everyone agreed to guarantee or exclude patty
but whatever I'm just salty I guess
quartz mantle
Why exclude Patty lol
mossy zinc
I just think it could be best of both worlds if early on everyone agreed to guar...
Yeah, would be a lot better for modded, I agree.
frozen spear
either or, as long as it's not rng
quartz mantle
High heat is also all about dealing with suboptimal circumstances
At least in my eyes
And that risk analysis matters for a lot of what you do in the run
mossy zinc
Why exclude Patty lol
We already said why that'd be better.
Seeing Patroclus or not has zero to do with risk analysis.
quartz mantle
So you think him existing as an option makes for a worse gameplay environment because of the times you don’t see him
frozen spear
I'd say so yeah
since he's too strong and seeing him is completely out of your hands
quartz mantle
Idk that doesn’t really feel right
It doesn’t feel like a good solution to the problem imo
But I guess I can’t think of a good solution besides don’t rely so heavily on seeing him lol
mossy zinc
For competitive play in modded, guaranteeing him and excluding him altogether are both better options than the current state.
frozen spear
if I had full control of the game I'd probably nerf him as well
his power on SD is way out of wack compared to eurydice and sisyphus
quartz mantle
Eh I mean trying to make high heat more competitive is a whole can of worms I really don’t wanna deal with lol
frozen spear
lol true
shy plinth
Eh I mean trying to make high heat more competitive is a whole can of worms I re...
This is wisdom
shy plinth
Making rules is dramatic
frozen spear
modpack should force ddash first boon like in fresh file smh
mossy zinc
The whole point of the modded rules for high heat was to make it a better competitive environment by making it more reliant on skill and less on luck.
mossy zinc
Making rules is dramatic
I think people are perfectly capable of having a civilized discussion about rules like that. And if they can't, I don't think the topic is the problem.
mossy zinc
Seems fine to me.
shy plinth
All yours lol
waxen relic
From what i've gathered people just want less of the things they perceive as hard game over, like not getting the first boon they want and 5-Sacks, but otherwise pretend they're playing vanilla. However noone's actively pushing towards getting anything done.
frozen spear
keep in mind it's also started from me whining because I lost a 50 to no patty lol
idk how the actual heat sweat community feels
mossy zinc
You're part of it if you're doing 50+ lol.
frozen spear
yeah I guess
then since I'm pretty new idk how most other people feel about it
I should also stick with the aspects that patch up my skill issue instead of lucifer lol
mossy zinc
From what i've gathered people just want less of the things they perceive as har...
Right. And my point was always that not seeing Patroclus was too much of a swing and can pretty much end a lot of runs. But since I never cared to compete in modded anyway, I didn't care enough to push for it. If most of them are happy with how it is now, that's the most important thing anyway.
waxen relic
imo some kind of forced lowroll Hades Heat competition is interesting, but for whatever you want to do you need to either be happy doing it by yourself or gather an audience first.
frozen spear
true
and for me the most important thing is that anything I do in game has merit relative to others
hence I'll never start fiddling with the ruleset to match my preference like forced patty
waxen relic
Then good luck
frozen spear
unless I get like 10+ no patty streak or something insane
mossy zinc
So you don't compare to compete on the leaderboards, but you want to adhere to their rules so that you can... compete with their runs.
Might as well submit your runs.
waxen relic
🔫
frozen spear
well I just mean that if 50 heat is "hard" under a given ruleset even if some of that difficulty is induced by pure rng, I wouldn't feel good about doing 50 without some of that difficulty
even if I feel the rng difficulty shouldn't be there
waxen relic
I wonder what my reasonable heat cap is
it's what you can streak
waxen relic
unmodded
mossy zinc
Yeah, unmodded.
frozen spear
https://i.imgur.com/FIeE9Tp.png this is probably the highest heat I can go tbh
oh well
mossy zinc
bablo also held all speedrun aspect WRs at one point, and still holds the record for most high heat aspect WRs held at the same time.
frozen spear
are they human
waxen relic
except modded heat WRs, that's Angel (all of them)
frozen spear
lol
left prism
just get the boons you want anyway
lone bridge
i could also go for flayed favor, 31%
i already have 37% favor so thatd be really funny but probably not very useful
dreamy star
yay 32 heat with eris first try, though a lot closer than I would've hoped https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/722911776601014383/985686797717733416/20220612160815_1.jpg
left prism
delta 
cursive portal
I wonder what my reasonable heat cap is
Streak 50 heat
neat sonnet
delta <:zagluv:687002515069468715>
delta also got me my first eris 32 
bronze rapids
Streak 50 heat <:bouldy:523329116934635534>
I can streak 50 heat...dying at 50 that is
hardy garden
dc2 is almost free because of lightning strike
forest token
Guys when shall I switch to sd
there's a chart somewhere that has recommended pacts for high heat and when to switch to sd
anything 32+ heat is sd, but iirc it starts earlier than 32
shy plinth
The sooner you're willing to do LC4 the better
But yeah I have it charted out to swap over in low 20s
frozen spear
although it's not the worst idea to LC0-2 DD 32 heat
if you're confident vs rooms it makes dad safer
forest token
4 heat sd lmao
shy plinth
although it's not the worst idea to LC0-2 DD 32 heat
Sure, lots of people clear 32 with DDs just for that
Though also you could athena
sonic marlin
What did lasting consequences do?
Also if I finish all weapons 16 heat, shall I go directly to 32 or have a stop at 24
shy plinth
LC is the one that reduces healing by 25% per rank
So LC4 means no healing
Stubborn defiance then becomes your main source of healing
frozen spear
speak for yourself, my main source of healing on LC4 is draining cutter
lone bridge
mine is quick recovery
left prism
Mine is using OF for more darkness for +5 health
lone bridge
but not df for more hearts for +25 health?
neat sonnet
speak for yourself, my main source of healing on LC4 is draining cutter
guan yu spin would like to know your location
bronze rapids
Stubborn Roots reporting in
frozen spear
stubborn roots lowkey sounds good on SD
lime elk
well when you're using sd you're mostly also using td
and stubborn roots bad with td
pseudo kernel
mossy zinc
although it's not the worst idea to LC0-2 DD 32 heat
32 Heat LC1–2 EM4 with DDs is super chill with Beowulf and probably some other aspects.
mossy zinc
Also if I finish all weapons 16 heat, shall I go directly to 32 or have a stop a...
Whatever seems fun.
If you wanna try 32, go ahead. If you try and then think it's too hard for now and wanna do something else, you do something else.
forest token
Some people have found success jumping straight to 32, others needed more practice lol
neat sonnet
jumping straight to 32 is practice
lone bridge
yeah 16 to 32 is a much smaller jump than the jumps youll make in the future lol
forest token
it's still a relatively large jump because you're putting together some pacts you probably only used once for the prophecy
frozen spear
it's still a relatively large jump because you're putting together some pacts yo...
yeah RI4 was tough to get used to when I jumped from 16 to 32
forest token
why did you do ri4 for 32 heat
left prism
frozen spear
for legal reasons that was a joke
left prism
they are competing in the mirrorless category ofc
upper juniper
why aren't you running em5?
forest token
for legal reasons that was a joke
i'm a bit on the desnse side lol
frozen spear
for EM5 regular dad shows up vs meg
tbh that sounds super fun I wonder what builds could handle that
hestia obviously
left prism
Make em5 the super barge
frozen spear
what can't lvl1 guan yu handle
upper juniper
can't die if you don't get hit
bronze rapids
Can't take -HP curse if not enough max HP to get into Chaos gates
neat sonnet
true
mossy zinc
Can't take -HP curse if not enough max HP to get into Chaos gates <:dusa:5222487...
Cosmic Egg.
sonic marlin
Guys what are the aspects that are good but die at higher heat
sonic marlin
Btw mentioning Beowulf, I tried it and it was really hard lost at Hades
Is that normal
lone bridge
might take a bit of getting used to
also, fists and sword are much harder at higher heat
bronze rapids
Beowulf suffers at RI3, Hestia suffers at DC but is otherwise pretty great
forest token
Is that normal
That's normal until you get used to how Beowulf works
upper juniper
Just like any weapon, you gotta get used to it
bronze rapids
Btw mentioning Beowulf, I tried it and it was really hard lost at Hades
if you're on infernal soul, don't use all your casts at once unless that lets you clear an area in one hit. Load 2, rush, load the remaining 1, rush and pick up the 2 falling casts, repeat
upper juniper
Use stygian 🧠
bronze rapids
Lol my Beo speed pb is Stygian
upper juniper
I think stygian is just better on beowulf
forest token
if you're on infernal soul, don't use all your casts at once unless that lets yo...
Problem: big numbers at once are better lol
mossy zinc
Use +400% Charged Flight. 
bronze rapids
nah reverse ME is the way to go
pseudo kernel
I think stygian is just better on beowulf
It isn't but ok
upper juniper
Why not
pseudo kernel
1 cast that takes 3 seconds to recharge not good
quartz mantle
I love waiting 3 seconds for my casts
pseudo kernel
3 casts good
forest token
It's better if everything goes right in the run
quartz mantle
When I can have 3 casts in 0 seconds
bronze rapids
for speed it's ok but struggles with super high heat
mossy zinc
I thought you were memeing when you said to use Stygian Soul. You weren't?
bronze rapids
also less Snow Burst, well, bursts
quartz mantle
Stygian Soul: 1 cast every 3 seconds
Infernal Soul: 3 casts every 0 seconds
Idk one of these seems better
pseudo kernel
But the time for the casts to drop is like 5 seconda
upper juniper
I think the problem is
pseudo kernel
Way worse
bronze rapids
that's why you don't load all at once
and learn to do the second rush into the falling casts
upper juniper
I’m used to dio cast on beowulf so I run stygian is what broke my line of thinking
quartz mantle
Dio cast is an uber high roll
mossy zinc
You're just new.
quartz mantle
You need chaos casts, mirage, and other support boons to do good damage
bronze rapids
it's serotonin when it does but a slog otherwise
quartz mantle
Flood flare or passion flare can do very well without as much of a high roll
mossy zinc
All that Passion Flare needs is some poms.
quartz mantle
Like yea Trippy Flare can get to the Dad Instaphase level of damage but that takes a lot to get going
And your tarts are going to be tougher
Which is more important in high heat
pseudo kernel
Flood can also instaphase dad 🗿
mossy zinc
Can't insta-phase dad when you time out in Tartarus. 
quartz mantle
Me when I have 3 braids and 2 chaos Shot boons
bronze rapids
that time I got Mirage trippy and one shot chariots with 1 cast
mossy zinc
Can't one-shot Elite Chariots with one Cast either way.
mossy zinc
That's not sub 8.
bronze rapids
and then I stopped speeding Beo
bronze rapids
That's not sub 8.
and? are you gonna call the police
bronze rapids
I git a job to deal with
hoary pasture
Great build
pseudo kernel
Bouldy didn't give +10% cast damage 
bronze rapids
for someone who goes around telling people off for having off topic convos, picking on others' language, and telling people to be kind, you sure throw that all out of the window when it comes to your own behavior, huh
yes, I know I used to entertain your in-jokes and role play but that was before realizing you were shoving it down everyone's throats without any situational awareness.
pseudo kernel
sonic marlin
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/725021639506526249/973304723950174248/u...
How did you get all these extra speed
pseudo kernel
You're mom
sonic marlin
No I am son
waxen relic
You can use Rerolls on Wells for more random items. Additionally you can buy in the interbiome hub with Charon's Hourglass equipped and change the Keepsake afterwards.
mossy zinc
for someone who goes around telling people off for having off topic convos, pick...
I'd appreciate it if you didn't spread bs about me.
lone bridge
dear lord this is the 3rd run in a row chaos has tried to give me halting flourish. no
left prism
Halting is -dash distance?
brave mango
yeah
gosh halting flourish is so .... 😰
i like it at times but i swear chaos dishes it out all the time for me and it can get rlly annoying 😭
n it'll always b -50%
lone bridge
halting on high heat is just a death sentence lol
brave mango
what heat r u on
lone bridge
45
cinder cave
how do you guys feel about chaos at that sorta heat in general
been trying AP2 so feels like chaos can just murder me at any point
cinder cave
I'm just practicing various elements
I want to push 40 but
kinda just practicing elements after a long break
(not trying to optimise heat rn, just trying to figure out pact implications)
lone bridge
yeah i probably wouldnt do ap at 40
hoary pasture
Well if you have AP2 Chaos is much more dangerous
hoary pasture
Would maybe take it in early Tart because if it ruins your run you can reset/roll it, in later biomes you'll only be gambling on it if you're low on time and need to skip a room
mostly
lone bridge
yeah id always take in tart, maybe in aspho, probably not in ely
cinder cave
thanks
sonic marlin
I am maintaining a 8 chaos enshrouded streak
gaunt fiber
mossy zinc
I am maintaining a 8 chaos enshrouded streak
How do you know it was 8 if you can't see?
sonic marlin
pure lily
frozen spear
https://i.imgur.com/OLmfNpS.png guys will I make it??
lmao eris is absolutely wild, I love this weapon
shy plinth
It's real good at shooting
pseudo kernel
second wave
frozen spear
https://i.imgur.com/TJjsiiL.png lol 56s dad
I forced delta because I'm a chump who's scared of not having ddash
dawn comet
I had epic Zeus attack and epic jolted after 2 chambers and zeus legendary during tartarus
Coasted through the game and then still lost to dad
All the damage in the world can't mitigate getting repeatedly hit by 45 dmg sweeps
frozen spear
Coasted through the game and then still lost to dad <:residentzag:58009745119785...
rip, what heat?
4 zeus in tart is absurd lmao
dawn comet
Still doing 32, wanna get 1 fists and 1 shield to complete the set
Wothout mods I have some hopeless rng but I've also had some incredibly good rng so I just need to work on playing a bit safer at the end while still applying high dmg
shy plinth
Unless you're running a sketchy pact RNG shouldn't be too big of a deal at 32
Obv you can lowroll but even sack rng won't stop you if the build is dece
I agree with SAdamant, practice is key
lone bridge
lmao eris is absolutely wild, I love this weapon
eris is def my favorite rail aspect. bestia? more like... bestris?
frozen spear
two runs in a row where the ME build absolutely refused to get set up
and then https://i.imgur.com/SqxZnx4.png
dreamy star
I guess I one trick the rail lmao, 32 heat on rama is walling me
frozen spear
I guess I one trick the rail lmao, 32 heat on rama is walling me
lol join the trash at rama club
dreamy star
I died to mega gorgon because the slam thingy kept going up before I could do anything
forest token
that's the worst part of rama lmao
hoary pasture
Meg it
forest token
meg doesn't 1 shot it because of armor you still have to hit it afterwards
granted it's like 1 hit afterwards but hitting it is the issue lol
frozen spear
my rama 32 experience was
- hold special button
- desperately interrupt with dashes to avoid stuff
- miss the mark on the one enemy you really needed to mark
- dash away and try to charge attack
- get hit
hoary pasture
If you tag both of them and powershot the gorgon the slammer will die even if it's mid air
shy plinth
Yeah I was gonna say Rama seems particularly good for power couple
hoary pasture
Just 1 cute tiny powershot
shy plinth
Not that it's a super fun fight
But Rama is the only aspect that can hit slammer while airborne I think
frozen spear
slammer takes doom/hangover damage right
hoary pasture
I think most people meg late so even after the armor is stripped they dont have enough time to powershot them
Yes
mossy zinc
But Rama is the only aspect that can hit slammer while airborne I think
Gilgamesh.
waxen relic
Literally any DoT/delayed damage like jolted then
mossy zinc
Yeah, but Jolted doesn't come from the aspect itself.
waxen relic
Sure
shy plinth
Gilgamesh.
Wut
Oh
Yes you can maim
That button is all the way up there tho
If I'm gilgaing I'm pressing the other buttons
hoary pasture
Gilga main forgets how to maim
mossy zinc
Probably too scared to maim.
shy plinth
Too busy dashin and slashin
dreamy star
I did a hestia 32 run right after that rama death and beat it with 4 minutes to spare and stubborn defiance left lol
so ig I’m just way better at rail than anything else
maybe I could try hera 32, I’m decent with hera
shy plinth
You'll just have to practice either way
If you have played one weapon this much the other ones are all gonna feel hard
shy plinth
Right but it's still rail
And hestia still quite good
Rama is a funky bow, takes practice
Zag bow is good btw
Especially if you get twin
dreamy star
I don’t have zag bow unlocked lol
dreamy star
Right but it's still rail
guess so
dreamy star
well, yeah
shy plinth
At max level it pumps out some serious damage
Have you cleared all the prophecies
Maxing all the weapons def worth doing
dreamy star
I think I’ve got like 6 left? none of them give blood
dreamy star
yeah but I’ve traded a lot of ambrosia for blood already and I didn’t take back the ambrosia from dusa
so I’m trying to max relationships before trading again
shy plinth
Ah
dreamy star
I will try to get zag bow though
mossy zinc
Hestia is one of the easiest for 32 Heat.
mossy zinc
Turns out a lot of damage with a lot of range in one instant shot with virtually no recovery is pretty good.
hoary pasture
Who knew
mossy zinc
I forced delta because I'm a chump who's scared of not having ddash
I think for high heat, only Cluster Rockets are better than Delta Chamber. But Delta is the single best hammer for high heat Eris.
frozen spear
nice
I absolutely loved it, peace of mind on tidal dash and never hearing that awful out of ammo sound
might try 50ing it instead of lucy tbh
jaunty falcon
I force delta too
frozen spear
how much RI can eris handle
jaunty falcon
Do ri0
frozen spear
sus
jaunty falcon
Take tidal c1 and whatever attack comes your way 😈
frozen spear
that's disgusting
hoary pasture
You can do Zeus attack for Eris 50
hoary pasture
It’s not that amazing on its own but it’s enough
jaunty falcon
Looks fine
hoary pasture
Ye
jaunty falcon
Hearts are good
hoary pasture
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/903215893998346251/962980122166698024/Hades_45SY6y8uKz.png here is mine lol
Jolted very late
frozen spear
cracked
jaunty falcon
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/725021639506526249/922937628368707584/IMG_1638.jpg this was mine
hoary pasture
I have another somewhere without Jolted but it had Zeus call instead
frozen spear
cheat engine
hoary pasture
Zeus call pretty gud damage
jaunty falcon
Especially with eris buff
frozen spear
PS user detected
jaunty falcon
I roam the subreddit
hoary pasture
lol
frozen spear
did you know that super soaker is op because it applies PS with just attack
jaunty falcon
Super soaker needs it
frozen spear
lmao
if I took CF2 what would be best to lower
HS so dad pots don't murder me instantly?
frozen spear
you know I feel like I'm warming up to JS more and more
hoary pasture
My admin chamber is some beo hera attempts and everything else is at 0
frozen spear
feels like JS3 isn't that bad usually
frozen spear
yeah
feels like if you have a build that can snowball on JS0 with time to spare JS3 won't change that
whereas stuff like CF and HS can
jaunty falcon
Modded timer is way less of an issue compared to unmodded
frozen spear
I guess that's the power of hammer
frozen spear
I'm sure at the highest level the effects of JS are clear
but for now it's one of the first things I add and max at 40+
maybe it's because JS actually can make the game more fun in contrast to the slog heats like CP and CF
jaunty falcon
Yeah calesthenics sucks
mossy zinc
how much RI can eris handle
More with seeded/modded and Drunken Strike start. Less with vanilla unseeded. But RI3+ is very unpleasant, Hestia can handle that a lot better than Eris.
neat sonnet
speaking of seeding/modded, where would i find the link to the modding server so i can try that out?
hoary pasture
speaking of seeding/modded, where would i find the link to the modding server so...
If you want to try the speedrunning modpack you can join the Speedrunning Discord, link is pinned in #self-promotion
And head to the #modded-runs channel and check the pins
dreamy star
yay 32 heat hera https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/722911776601014383/986675388220571768/20220615095529_1.jpg
shy plinth
Got em
dreamy star
kind of scuffed tho lmao
shy plinth
Parting shot is rad tho
dreamy star
I accidentally skipped a chaos in tartarus, maybe I would've gotten an extra cast out of that
left prism
Pretty safe even with overtime lol
lone bridge
best aspect imo
then why is your pfp of beo
frozen spear
then why is your pfp of beo <:thanthink:669246004142538753>
beo was my first love but comparing 50 beo and hestia was eye opening
lone bridge
then switch it to hestia smh
frozen spear
then switch it to hestia smh
there are you happy
frozen spear
I do feel weird
lone bridge
ok so change it back
frozen spear
ok so change it back
better
lone bridge
cursed
dapper schooner
there are you happy
im unhappy
lone bridge
wait
imagine a rail aspect
where you load your cast into your attack
but whenever you manually reload your attack does 150 damage
frozen spear
god I wanna mod that
lone bridge
you can call it... bestia
or probably more accurately, hestia
(hera+hestia)
herstia?
left prism
That dont lodge and get beautiful mirage bug
frozen spear
I just realized flare hestia would be explosive shot hestia but good
lone bridge
That dont lodge and get beautiful mirage bug
yep yep
dont forget, on specific flares if you do anything to your attack boon it makes the game unplayable
frozen spear
elaborate
lone bridge
Thats only passion, and you still can play it
isnt it the same with whatever dem flare is?
left prism
Why would you use that in first place tho
lone bridge
wait what causes the bug
selling, upgrading, or replacing your attack boon iirc
idk about poms
how that managed to happen in the first place im not sure
left prism
Pancake bug doc have some of the triggers/how to solve (sometimes)
But yeah those are most of the triggers
frozen spear
how much bigger is passion flare anyways
pseudo kernel
A lot bigger
Cast bug resets the cast size to the size of normal cast
And that stuff is tiny
sonic marlin
Guys is this a good 32 pact? I think of adding one hl and reducing one LC
hoary pasture
I would look into that too yea
sonic marlin
TD3 is hard for me
Like really hard
I actually struggle at early biomes with TD2
Not struggle but if things not go as intended I may be a bit tight on the time
My brother tells me to add cf and remove either hl or fo
frozen spear
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/980474449600077846/986725982729809960/I...
consider LC2 and DD
sonic marlin
Why
frozen spear
it gives you more breathing room vs bosses
sonic marlin
Everyone says use as and it makes a lot of logic
frozen spear
how familiar are you with SD
sonic marlin
Will give it a first try tbh
frozen spear
well I guess you need to learn it at some point
sonic marlin
O was gonna learn it now
frozen spear
CF2 is fine for beo, it also demolishes TD
shy plinth
FO+HL is really tough
frozen spear
agreed, you should really try TD3
shy plinth
I usually recommend one or the other
frozen spear
too much free heat
sonic marlin
I will try
So hl1 and TD 3
Any other changes
Note that my fastest run was 19 minute
shy plinth
That beats td3 🙂
hoary pasture
Just practice
frozen spear
sonic marlin
https://i.imgur.com/ghtFr1x.png
That is basically what I am starting at on my TV rn
Ty all for the help wish me luck
frozen spear
https://i.imgur.com/3NfbrO4.png if bosses on SD are kicking your ass try this
beo also facetanks JS3 but that might be rough if you're not used to clearing at TD3 pace
shy plinth
Getting used to td3 makes everything else a lot easier
Every other piece of advice I'd give here would be a compromise
sonic marlin
https://i.imgur.com/3NfbrO4.png if bosses on SD are kicking your ass try this
I thought of that
frozen spear
you're not modded right?
sonic marlin
Yh not modded
frozen spear
well you're on AP0 so you should still be able to get a good beo hammer
sonic marlin
Got ass hammers
neat sonnet
unmodded just means more resets (:
frozen spear
charged shot, sudden rush, ferocious guard, breaching rush, unyielding defense, dashing wallop are good
and that's my rough order of preference
neat sonnet
ok but charged shot >>> right
frozen spear
lol yeah
sonic marlin
Best is pulverising blow
frozen spear
hm
sonic marlin
In the hammer I got
neat sonnet
i think that sentence would be similiarly accurate with/without "special", but it's funny how many of them are actually for special
frozen spear
tbh beo special hammers are probably good in a vacuum
neat sonnet
but like
frozen spear
it's just that beo special is so unusable
frozen spear
but they do seem to buff the special a lot I guess
frozen spear
I still hate getting blueballed by charged flight thinking it's charged shot lmao
mossy zinc
god damn why are there so many awful special hammers
Because there are so many special hammers.
neat sonnet
not untrue
sonic marlin
Finished Tartarus in 3:30 is that good
shy plinth
4 minutes a biome is a good target
frozen spear
never know when you're gonna get 5sacked
I took a normal styx chamber for first chamber on my 40 modded eris to get athena DD and wow
forgot how brutal they are
sonic marlin
Died in hydra
I am really really annoyed
If I win I would have had 3 minutes left in the timer
frozen spear
what was your build looking like
sonic marlin
I was one hit away from killing it
upper juniper
Died in hydra
better Lernie than Theseus, am I right?
sonic marlin
did you have meg?
I had it but preferred to save it
Actually I had it full as I got a refill
mossy zinc
god damn why are there so many awful special hammers
I think a lot of it is just the fact that Charged Flight was so busted, they didn't get too much feedback on anything else for Beowulf during Early Access. Like, top Beowulf players were bablo, horheristo, and myself (well, bablo mained everything), and we all just did Charged Flight RI3+ at 50+, which made the Dragon Rush too weak relatively and the only Cast exploration pretty much at 50+ level was from me in 56 Heat attempts (everything maxed except for RI3) and that was mainly just for clearing DC2 and some trash mob crowds (since most damage still came from Special). I remember Tailesque was messing around with the Cast a bit in like 40ish Heat, I think? But Beowulf wasn't his main aspect, that was Hades (and then Rama in 1.0).
In 1.0, all the early focus was on Eris and Rama, and the only one playing Beowulf really (at top level) was Wriste, and his focus was all on speedruns and trying out different Casts and stuff, and since it was so underexplored, Special builds with Charged Flight still seemed decent enough alternatives early on (though personally I dropped Beowulf pretty much right away after the nerfs and only came back to it much later).
Honestly, the Beowulf "craze" came pretty late even after what was pretty much the final patch.
So basically, the reason all the Special hammers look so "obviously" bad now is just the result of a whole lot of work from players after the fact and wasn't obvious at all when they were balancing things.
mossy zinc
C, not D.