I’m not fast enough to handle JS3 unless beo handles JS3 exceptionally well
#h1-high-heat-strategies
bright mango
solar maple
if that is too slow you can take one or the other between CF2 and AP1. tbh CF might hurt more
bright mango
My beo 40 pact
solar maple
or em4 I guess haha
bright mango
Tbh em4 with beo at 40 is ez
unique zephyr
EM4 + TD3 seems beyond my capabilities
bronze viper
It's beyond most people's. For most aspects.
unique zephyr
Why would CF hurt more? I believe you I just want to know
solar maple
you got a highroll dio beo build lol
bronze viper
But yeah it's easily within Beo's
bright mango
I think i got 5 sacked this run. Dio beo to the rescue
solar maple
bad news on pride LMAO
bright mango
Yeeee
solar maple
literally 1% per boon, so with a roll it's ~6% to get it
unique zephyr
What makes beo so good vs EM4 besides the fact that it’s a shield
eager vortex
I've done 50 em4 with beo, hestia and chiron
the only aspects I seem to be capable of doing it with
others won't work
solar maple
beo is good vs em4 because it is the shield with the highest dps
so you are safe, and can kill it in good time
bright mango
What makes beo so good vs EM4 besides the fact that it’s a shield
Your entire gameplay revolves around bullrushing. The fact that you can do high damage will staying safe is amazing
solar maple
with other weapons, you have to either dodge really well, or have absurd damage
unique zephyr
Is Poseidon cast good enough or do I have to highroll
solar maple
the latter is big rng, the prior is retrash zone
bright mango
I like aphro the best
eager vortex
dio or aphro
bright mango
With snow burst p status stonks
solar maple
aphro is best for em4 I think
eager vortex
I used aphro charged shot
bright mango
✊
unique zephyr
Has anyone reached a point where they felt like they capped their skill then broke though the skill cap
eager vortex
ri4 is free heat, fight me
unique zephyr
I would but I can’t get to you with only one dash
solar maple
ri4 is free heat, fight me
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/725021639506526249/818091769098272778/Screen_Shot_2021-03-07_at_1.59.21_AM.png seems free to me
eager vortex
confirmed
bright mango
I was messing with my zeus 50 pact and tried RI3. It didn’t feel terrible
solar maple
I did RI3 for zoos
eager vortex
little by little I'll convince everyone that ap2 is the worst heat
solar maple
not sure if it was worth it though
bright mango
little by little I'll convince everyone that ap2 is the worst heat
Everyone agrees
eager vortex
idk pengy you seem to like ap2
unique zephyr
I can see the argument for AP being better than RI given the horrible amount of blue rooms I’ve seen when ledger used RI2
bright mango
Oh yeah AP > RI 100%
solar maple
I do way better on average with AP2 than RI2
unique zephyr
So many rooms with RI2 do nothing for you
solar maple
lol
unique zephyr
It seems like RI0 to RI1 is actually a bigger jump than RI1 to RI2
In terms of “hurts you”
eager vortex
if you are a lucky person though
ap1 > ri1
however
ap1 seems to always block my most wanteds
unique zephyr
I’m only theorycrafting since I’m only at 40 but at least AP1 doesn’t hurt your chances of getting centaur hearts and gold
Also you still get boons with AP1
I guess it’s sucky boons vs fewer boons
eager vortex
kinda depends on the aspect too I guess
solar maple
RI1 is only worse on some aspects
on others, it is way way way worse
AP1 hurts hammers more, but is worse in every other way basically
bronze viper
AP1 inflicts soul damage
solar maple
yeah it is more visual
eager vortex
yes, ap1 hurts my life
solar maple
which hurts
eager vortex
when you see that duo you're aiming for is blocked
solar maple
even if you just want a specific boon
eager vortex
bright mango
bronze viper
Saw triple Second Wave cross out in a row today. I didn't even want the boon and it hurt really badly
bright mango
LUL
solar maple
you are more likely to get it with AP1 RI0 than AP0 RI1
unique zephyr
Did you do the math on it
solar maple
you are way more likely to get a duo on RI0 AP1 with god's legacy than AP0 RI1
also not close
eager vortex
when I think about it though, it doesn't even really matter to me
bronze viper
Dark Foresight, rerolls, and Legacy all synergize with each other as well. It's hard to math out
eager vortex
I use ri1 ap1 on 50 heat, ri0 ap0 on 40 heat
solar maple
I mean play what you want
eager vortex
lol
bright mango
RI1?
eager vortex
yep
bright mango
Might as well go full in with RI2
unique zephyr
It seems like people who don’t run dark foresight play on RI1 without the 2 heat
eager vortex
ri2 is lower hp no ?
solar maple
RI2 lowers health yeah. Makes tart way harder
eager vortex
okay well I don't like that
bronze viper
-20-25% damage, -50 health, -100 starting gold
solar maple
also the global damage is really annoying to lose
tbh people underestimate RI2 quite a bit
unique zephyr
RI gives so little heat
bright mango
But at 50 just take the 2 heat
unique zephyr
I guess supergiant wanted you to use the mirror
bright mango
You’ve already given up DF
unique zephyr
Would grinding EM4 let me avoid RI until very high heat
bronze viper
RI gives so little heat
RI2 in a vacuum is a lot easier than EM4 in a vacuum so I'd say it's a pretty decent deal
solar maple
I take RI0 at 50 even with EM3 lol
eager vortex
does that mean cp
solar maple
well it's hell mode
so cp1
for 2 heat basically
also my current heat pb is RI1 lol
ashen garnet
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826957258160209920/831297536551026688/ima...
Looking for splitting bolt to show up for 100-ish runs now 
eager vortex
I've been flexing around, saying I've done all aspects 40+ heat
turns out I never even touched talos and zag rail
ashen garnet
If RI2 : always take early Tart Erebus HP gate when proposed
ashen garnet
Onion is fast reset 
bright mango
I am a proud member of the frequent onion gang
solar maple
yes timer runs
eager vortex
well that's also a negative
solar maple
yeah don't do that
eager vortex
honest kernel
Fear is for the weak. 
ashen garnet
unless it is really bad
Erebus super-elite witch is my nightmare
unique zephyr
Erebus gates with fists seem so hard, I haven’t tried any at high heat with fists yet
solar maple
summon on the super witch tbh
eager vortex
should enter erebus only in tart I guess ?
ashen garnet
summon on the super witch tbh
I have a Talos flex magnetism into chain wall-slam until the armor is gone, but should definitely use a summon 
bright mango
how much HP does super witch have?
quartz mantle
Alright my physical copy of Hades just came in time to become the god gamer I was always meant to be
bright mango
jesus
eager vortex
nothing a little breaching cross can't solve
ashen garnet
nothing a little breaching cross can't solve
I would not bet on it though, she's a nasty one
solar maple
you can see it in tart erebus
quartz mantle
It can be in any erebus
solar maple
when it spawns it is basically the only enemy
eager vortex
em4 summoning mini bosses is just unfair anyway
eager vortex
ohh wait hang on
solar maple
idk
eager vortex
he summons those small witches with very high shield
solar maple
yeah those
eager vortex
okay I saw them
bronze viper
Yeah, non-EM4 can summon Super Elite enemies
Well, not "can". It does, every time lol
solar maple
yeah they really aren't bad vs hades
turns out you are much stronger in greece than c2
devout quiver
never in elysium
how do erebus gates scale with biome?
eager vortex
I want my acorn to work against hades sweeps or traps
bronze viper
It's been like... since EA that I've seen super elite bows in Erebus. Not that I want that to happen lol but I wonder if it can even happen in Tartarus
eager vortex
instead it works against stupid summons
honest kernel
Oh, they definitely can, Ledger.
eager vortex
usually I just enter the first erebus I find in tart
and forget about erebus for the rest of the run
quartz mantle
I’ll only do Erebus for big health or a good boob
honest kernel
Erebus is usually tolerable in Tartarus, and sometimes in Asphodel if you've got a strong build.
quartz mantle
I never see use in doing Erebus for big gold
honest kernel
I don't go into Erebus gates in Elysium anymore.
eager vortex
cuz I know some weird annoying thing will spawn and I'll get onion anyway
devout quiver
sometimes, if I'm not playing for a good time, I take gates in the room before the end shop to get an extra floor
👌
sometimes it even works out
bronze viper
I do this with TD2 sometimes too if there's a tasty boon, or if I need a boon from an exit
Since you always get 3 choices
eager vortex
erebus gates should be free rooms
td wise
you are not guaranteed to get anything
it eats time
devout quiver
Since you always get 3 choices
yeah that's another good point.
bronze viper
So should Charon but shrug
eager vortex
well charon should only be fought on a
non serious run I guess then
that membership card not worth the time spent
bronze viper
Or just straight up dying
eager vortex
that too
devout quiver
charon that hard on high heat?
I guess he does hit as hard as dad
eager vortex
he hits harder than dad prolly
bronze viper
Also tends to hurt that midshops often come before minibosses so you typically have to give up a good chamber to hopefully not die to Charon
eager vortex
I don't remember, been a while but
I remember he 3-shots you in 0 heat
so with hl5
nope
eager vortex
Also tends to hurt that midshops often come before minibosses so you typically h...
yea not worth it overall
bronze viper
I wish the wiki had like... any boss information lol
bright mango
i think it does 50
gaunt fiber
Saw triple Second Wave cross out in a row today. I didn't even *want* the boon ...
nah it was fun
bronze viper
I think I remember it also doing 50 but I can't find anything on interwebs to support
eager vortex
I just know for sure he hits harder than dad swipes 0 heat
my first charon fight was
with guan yu
devout quiver
I died to charon my first try, then beat him twice for the prophecy and never again since
solar maple
I'm looking for the erebus code rn
devout quiver
well, maybe once ever since
bronze viper
I still have to go back for my second fight with him
Probably camping with Zoos or something
eager vortex
better to fight him in ely where you have an okay build
bronze viper
If I'm taking a run to Elysium I probably want to finish it lol
devout quiver
I think I did it in asphodel most times
and then pray that patty shows up early in elysium
solar maple
I used to do charon all the time in random casual/meme runs
in tart I would lose a DD or two, but you can buy them back no problem
wait he really is in clown makeup
wtf
bronze viper
I saw what appeared to be a haunted clown in my Twitch feed, and I clicked and confirmed, it is indeed a haunted clown.
Oh god he smiled.
eternal hare
streaming under the beauty & body art category...
solar maple
I found the erebus gate code
so it has the same difficulty scaling as normal rooms of the floor, and adds a flat number to the difficulty
bronze viper
This is like surrealist Twitch lmao. I love this. It's like high heat reality
bright mango
"cosplay"
shy plinth
bright mango
I feel you
eager vortex
I gotta rebind the dash key to something other than space cuz "someone" can't sleep while I'm playing hades
solar maple
interesting, erebus gates are always "1 wave"
solar maple
so the only restrictions on the spawning is the limit on total amount of enemies and amount of enemies of teh same type
oh I have it on space
solar maple
I have a pretty quiet keyboard
eager vortex
that's definitely the way to live
I would bind it to shift but my left pinky doesn't work
damn this life is rough
gamer life
and no way I'm using a controller, I fail at it
I'll bind it to alt and see how it works
honest kernel
Alt sounds like it'd get really uncomfortable really quick.
eager vortex
it does yes
solar maple
I found the erebus gate enemy list
but it uses the in game names for the enemies, which are weird
"punchingbagunit"
idk what that is
wait I found a spreadsheet with translations for them
eager vortex
"punchingbagunit"
an enemy with no attack comes to mind
ashen garnet
"punchingbagunit"
That's how I call wretched thugs
solar maple
no it was louts
solemn pulsar
you found the one with the difficulty scaling?
eager vortex
solemn pulsar
and HP values right pseudo?
solar maple
yeah that's the spreadsheet I'm using to translate
forgot it had in game names on it
so in tart the super elites you can get are: witches and numbskulls
in aspho: bowmen, sword bois, louts, witches, bloodless, and the shield stone things
in addition to enemies you can normally get from that biome or before
eager vortex
yep I'm not doing erebus in aspho
ashen garnet
so in tart the super elites you can get are: witches and numbskulls
Single super-elite numbskull allowed ?
solar maple
you get more than 1 usually
but I guess 1 might be possible
they are actually quite nice to see, high difficulty and not too bad to kill
ashen garnet
Was wondering if there was some kind of hard limit to their number. They are not so nice when they benefit from BP or when you have short reach aspects
eager vortex
lol speedy numbskull in erebus is bad
solar maple
super elites do not get BP I think
and yeah the skulls can be bad for melee non shields
but even then they aren't the worst imo
gaunt fiber
Pretty sure I've seen a giga witch with seeker
ashen garnet
Will need to check next time, I think they may be an exception
eager vortex
since I reset each time I get onion
gaunt fiber
yeah elite numb are really fast
eager vortex
I still dont have onion in my codex
ashen garnet
maybe you thought they had speeder haha
I know they have improved stats from standard ones
But sometimes I think they also benefit from BP
solar maple
in elysium there are lots of super elites you can get
devout quiver
i've only ever taken Erebus in elysium once ever.
Thankfully i was on a ranged weapon with lower heat so i could cheese it easy enough
solar maple
butterfly balls, mega gorgons, burn flinger, brightshields, chariots, brightbows, louts
along with normal elysium enemies at normal/elite level
also all the super elites are listed twice, which means they are more likely to show up in elysium I think
devout quiver
megagorgons in that pool as just a random "haha get rekt nerd"
solar maple
hm that's possible but I don't think I remember seeing BP super elites. Take a screenshot next time you see one pls
eager vortex
what is the point though
nobody will take erebus gates in ely
if you make them like that
solar maple
I mean it wouldn't be too bad if you just had to clear them
ashen garnet
Was wondering how you could take advantage of the single wave or high-difficulty enemies of gates time-wise
solar maple
but if get hit once you are just sol with an onion
I think erebus could be worth it in aspho for time sometimes, to aoid a missed midshop
because they always get 3 exits iirc
devout quiver
think so yeah
solar maple
because of the delay before first spawn though, on their own they will probably always be slower
eager vortex
make it stop time but don't make it a free room
devout quiver
what if when you got hit everything just stoppedspawning
would that be too good?
save a lot of time but lose the reward
ashen garnet
because of the delay before first spawn though, on their own they will probably ...
Guessing only their reward could outweight the timeloss (including dodging Aspho wide rooms, 3exits and dodging not interesting/blue rewards)
eager vortex
get hit, exit fast
devout quiver
get hit, exit fast
Yeah. I'm just thinking about whether or not that's "good" overall
eager vortex
well it would change speedrun times for sure
eager vortex
enclosed room, enemies together
ashen garnet
What's your take about Beo Erebus ?
solar maple
I do think aspho/elysium erebus should be tested for time
beo is good at early erebus
I like health/pom early
I don't usually take it for a boon though
double pom 🤤
devout quiver
huh. I usually only grab erebus for boons, personally. Generally when its a good i want, so I dont need to force them later.
solar maple
at high heat the +50 health is huge
devout quiver
ye, fair
solar maple
and for a cast build double pom is also amazing
ashen garnet
beo is good at early erebus
Was thinking maybe it's viable and fast for less early Erebus if you have the Beo cast online
solar maple
how late are you thinking?
devout quiver
if its offered against meta resources usually I'll take a gate too.
Unless its key and i really need more rerolls
solar maple
asphodel it can also be done, but doing it damageless can be tricky
I honesty have not experimented with elysium erebus
ashen garnet
Was thinking before Elysium since you can have butterflies
eager vortex
they should put erebus in styx with a chance to spawn charon
solar maple
with athena dash/attack BB isn't too bad with beo I think
devout quiver
Tiny Vermin Twins
solar maple
maybe I should try elysium erebus 👀
devout quiver
i kinda wish there was a "light of erebus" type thing
halcyon flame
devout quiver
that'd be a neat well item
halcyon flame
32 heat guan yu attempt, going well so far
devout quiver
fan c
ashen garnet
Erebus keepsake 👌
devout quiver
Daedelus keepsake 
solar maple
tbh from the numbers I see with a good build maybe elysium erebus could be worth it
eager vortex
I still want styx erebus
solar maple
the difficulty is not much higher (only a bit more than adding 1 to chamber count), and super elites should be much faster
devout quiver
chaos in styx when
solar maple
it also gives a better chance to see patty in the next room because of 3 exits. no chaos chance though
eager vortex
yea actually why are there no chaos gates in styx
devout quiver
because you might not have enough rooms to clear the curse
ashen garnet
yea actually why are there no chaos gates in styx
Chaos curse against Dad 👌
halcyon flame
also i got eury and now i have heroic heartbreak flourish
devout quiver
beat dad with a chaos cures, and you get to start your next run with the chaos boon 
ashen garnet
also all the super elites are listed twice, which means they are more likely to ...
Strange design choice, thought Styx enemies would be added instead
eager vortex
they'd have to put pools
devout quiver
Strange design choice, thought Styx enemies would be added instead
dire satyr in erebus gates
bright mango
The only elysium erebus I have ever taken had megagorgon in it
halcyon flame
5:03 out of tartarus, i'll be surprised if this turns out to be a 32 heat speedrun
halcyon flame
The only elysium erebus I have ever taken had megagorgon in it<:squirtmeh:456913...
the miniboss????
eager vortex
yep
solar maple
yeah it also can do the butterfly ball miniboss
eager vortex
whenever I think of dad spawning in erebus I start laughing like an idiot
maybe I should sleep
maybe it's the effects of trying to dash with left alt
who knows
solar maple
other thing I found -- the skull meta reward rooms have the same base difficulty but a higher depth scaling
so their difficulty is closer to a normal room toward the start of a biome, but diverges a bit later
solar maple
no this is for the normal rooms with the skulls
the ones that reward double meta rewards
gaunt fiber
No the saint double keys
eager vortex
okay ignore me
gaunt fiber
Double key single roll sigh
solar maple
"meta reward" means between run currency
solar maple
yep. Erebus is the opposite, where it has a higher base but the same scaling
so it is always the same as a normal room difficulty, + a flat number of enemies
still, you are punished more for late erebus because you are more likely to get hit
so later ones are still riskier
also the difficulty of average erebus room enemies will be higher so you might see fewer total enemies on average, just harder ones
halcyon flame
10:30 out of elysium, so much for sub 12
run's still going great though so no complaints 
eager vortex
so basically take the first erebus
you see
later ones will have more chance of spawning shielded enemies
that you can't stutter without breaking their shield first
aka. more chance of getting hit
devout quiver
Double key single roll sigh
imagine if the skulled meta resource rooms gave double run resource too tho
solar maple
with low JS, super witches actually can't spawn on super early erebus
not enough difficulty in the whole room
eager vortex
room difficulty goes up with each single floor you clear right
so the erebus difficulty is connected to that room's difficulty
solar maple
yes, there is difficulty scaling between rooms
the difficulty scaling is the same for erebus as normal rooms
ashen garnet
with low JS, super witches actually can't spawn on super early erebus
ch4 or earlier I think (running JS0)
solar maple
erebus just has a higher base and harder enemies
eager vortex
which means if you take the erebus gate just before theseus shop room
you're gonna have a bad time
ever had a hp erebus spawning literally in the first room you start the run
now that's the one you should take
solar maple
ch4 or earlier I think (running JS0)
where do you get that number from?
ashen garnet
Wait, JS do not increase flat number of enemies in Erebus then ?
ashen garnet
where do you get that number from?
Experience, could be wrong though
solar maple
JS is just a multiplier to total difficulty I think
eager vortex
it is
in tart, a room of 3 louts
which is obviously the default
game spawned one of those small things that throw mines at you
to compensate for js1
bronze viper
JS is just a multiplier to total difficulty I think
Lol, it's kind of tedious to kill big things with Rama without JS3 :3
solar maple
hm I'm a bit confused because it looks like super witches should not be possible for quite a while
without high JS
eager vortex
means it needed one weak enemy for the difficulty on js1
halcyon flame
ez 32 heat guan yu
only lost 2 acorn charges
i picked up so much defensive stuff only for it to not matter because i didn't even take any damage from dad
eager vortex
offense is the best defense
solar maple
I wonder how the game chooses difficulty
bronze viper
i picked up so much defensive stuff only for it to not matter because i didn't e...
This is generally how this goes.
Confidence boons are real
solar maple
does it allow it to go over then stop spawning?
or can it not go over
I think it might be the "go over" way
hm or maybe not. I've seen lots of c2 2 lout only rooms, and sometimes it spawns in something after, but only numbskulls or smth, which suggests the second
bright mango
Pseudo | Spawn technician
eager vortex
that's wat I said earlier
solar maple
ok it is definitely that it can't go over
2 louts is only 30 difficulty, and c2 has difficulty 41
so you would have to roll lout + other big enemy for possible enemies in the room, and it spawns the louts but can't spawn the others because of the cap
the reason that's confusing for me though is super witches have difficulty 200
which would mean for one to spawn in tart with JS0 you would need it to be c13, or c6 for JS3
but that feels wrong idk
solar maple
is anyone sure of seeing an early super witch, preferably with low JS?
I usually play with JS3, and I would believe that I've only seen them c6 on
bronze viper
I see Super Elite Witch in c2 like about a third of the time it feels like? Maybe that's a high estimate
It's a lot though.
solar maple
is that the only enemy in them, or is there other stuff too?
bronze viper
Usually a couple of other enemies
Like 1 Thug or a couple of Numbskulls
Never by itself
solar maple
ok then it could have to do with the fact that an erebus gate always rolls 3 enemy types
maybe it has to spawn some of each?
especially since it is just 1 wave
not sure how the minimum types or wave system works
also fun fact, it looks like cloner is more likely than any other BP trait
halcyon flame
why is it cloner??? why not slugger or something else that'd be much easier to deal with
solar maple
other than for ranged enemies. Those get seeker even more likely
honest kernel
The Pact of Punishment is Amir's sadism leaking.
solar maple
yeah that is the most likely witch combo
unique zephyr
cloner + seeker?
That combination is the bane of me
Best case scenario I lose an SD worst case run ends
Oh we’re talking about Erebus gates
halcyon flame
That combination is the bane of me
ooooo cloner saviour numbskulls oooooooo
unique zephyr
That too
People who streak high heat amaze me
Partly because some BP combos are run enders for me
solar maple
ok I will experiment a bit with routing mods on erebus
people who streak often are able to hold on to some extra hp above SD, especially for tartarus
which helps with nasty BP rooms
wintry berry
I hate cloner savior numbskull, but with Zeus shield, it's not an issue
unique zephyr
So how does room difficulty work exactly I saw talk about it scrolling down
unique zephyr
people who streak often are able to hold on to some extra hp above SD, especiall...
That makes sense, they’re good enough to lose their SD much later then
Instead of middle of Tartarus
bright mango
I hate cloner savior numbskull, but with Zeus shield, it's not an issue
Exactly lol
I love those rooms
Its so satisfying
halcyon flame
getting horrendous bp combinations and clearing them out effortlessly with just the right aspect for dealing with them 😩 👌
honest kernel
@unique zephyr Very.
solar maple
which aspect?
honest kernel
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/761220441049661442/811600647174094889/Eua...
Blood and--
halcyon flame
i wanna go to the artist who did this and ask about their pact
apparently they cleared it????
bright mango
And how fun is it
I love it
solar maple
from this we can only tell for sure TD0 RI0
solar maple
oh yeah and BP2
halcyon flame
i wouldn't be surprised if dc1 was on
halcyon flame
i mean why wouldn't they turn it on, what else is gonna fill that td3 gap
solar maple
also another thing I noticed is that in 3/4 wave rooms, the 2nd wave is always the smallest
eager vortex
hmm I don't like spread fire at all
solar maple
they start big, get small, then get big again
spread fire works on zag rail but is pretty bad on the others
eager vortex
I don't like it on zag rail either, just tried a run with it and
halcyon flame
i should try em4 sometime
eager vortex
nah
halcyon flame
i did it once and never again
unique zephyr
I did EM4 on its own and once wit FO2
halcyon flame
i'm gonna have to get a feel for it if i get tempted to do high heats eventually
eager vortex
zag rail with spread fire is basically zag sword
solar maple
it's like zag sword but way more damage
unique zephyr
I tried EM4 at 40 and got to Hades but he killed me on phase 2
unique zephyr
Cerberus dropped rocks on me and I died shortly after
The 100 damage rock triggered my damage shield
eager vortex
any zag rail hammers you would recommend
other than spread fire
attack hammer I mean
unique zephyr
I’ll have to wait until I heal before I can handle the mental concentration for E!4
solar maple
attack hammers for rail are pretty mediocre
ricochet is ok
the best hammers are mostly the special hammers
eager vortex
yep that's where rail shines
solar maple
cluster + rocket is the strongest hammer combo in the game
eager vortex
I agree
unique zephyr
I love it
Any tips for picking up zeus shield
Not sure if I want to do beo 40 or zeus, haven’t tried shield yet thou
eager vortex
cluster + rocket is the strongest hammer combo in the game
also what does flurry fire do exactly
what does it mean with "more accurate"
eager vortex
okay useless hammer
solar maple
it doesn't do much
it's mostly for the rate of fire + clip size
still pretty mediocre hammer
eager vortex
yep
eager vortex
explosive fire, good ?
halcyon flame
meh
halcyon flame
it's like b tier at best
halcyon flame
how good are you at landing hits?
solar maple
I mean the best for zag are the special hammers
or spread fire for speedruns with arty attack, but again, unsafe
halcyon flame
yeah.. that's a pretty lame hammer if i've seen one
eager vortex
zag spear fun times with exploding launcher
halcyon flame
more like hades fun times 
halcyon flame
hades looks fun but i have no idea how to build it
aside from the hammers
i wonder what aspect i should go for 32 heat with next, maybe lucifer since my run with it yesterday went absurdly well
or i could go for hera just so i don't have to deal with the fact that i haven't done it yet
solar maple
also @ashen garnet you were right about supers with BP, not sure why I never noticed before. Maybe I was just confused by the dad fight
solar maple
also I am able to get super witches in c2 even with JS0, so it is spawning way over the limit then stopping
I got the same number of spawns in an erebus on the same seed with JS0 and JS3 because the witch went over anyway lol
floral tundra
So, in the FTL community, we do winstreaks where you rotate through each ship. Is there a similar thing for Hades, like, winstreaking where you rotate through all the different aspects?
honest kernel
You could do that, following Dark Thirst, maybe.
solar maple
some people have done streaks
the most notable was bablo, who did every aspect at 40 heat in a row
twice
floral tundra
Niiiice
solar maple
so 48 straight runs
floral tundra
Yeah, so is 40 heat the like, "standard"?
honest kernel
Daaaaang.
solar maple
retrash also did 45 heat streaks I believe
shy gulch
bablo just likes 40
floral tundra
I'm only at around 11 right now, grinding for titan blood
honest kernel
I'd say 40 is where "very high Heat" begins.
floral tundra
But i'm finally at the point where i win like 80% of my runs
Does the HP drain from the timer heat setting activate your revenge boons btw?
shy gulch
no
floral tundra
Rip
solar maple
ah the retrash streak I was thinking about was he did all 6 zag aspects in a row at 45
shy gulch
i think he was trying all aspects at 45 but died at like the 21st or something
beowulf
shy gulch
eager vortex
halcyon flame
finally got around to 32 heat hera
4 acorn charges left, i guess sub 12 really did help me get better at using this particular aspect
quartz mantle
if only there was some better way he could build the weapon
What was his beo build
solar maple
What was his beo build
he plays special beo
quartz mantle
Retrash moment
halcyon flame
charged flight moment
speaking of flight guess i'll go do 32 chaos now or something idk
mossy zinc
Timer shouldn't be a problem either way. Faster is not necessarily easier.
mossy zinc
Might have missed an exit in Asphodel or skipped him with a Chaos Gate or something. That can happen.
honest kernel
Roll Caskett: "Good luck!"
mossy zinc
EM4? What Heat?
bronze viper
I find the Heroes more irritating to do than Dad at EM3 if I don't have Long Knuckle
mossy zinc
More like if I don't have Divine Dash, for me.
You'll be fine vs dad. Just don't take any unnecessary risks, especially if you have plenty of time.
eager vortex
nah
I've learned my lesson
me it is again
except demeter (which is actually also nice with me)
I've tried some gimmicky build with aphro cast on talos but
it just doesn't work
game punishes you hard for trying new things so, tested and proven builds are always the best
honest kernel
I just ignored cast on talos tbh
eager vortex
sadly
bronze viper
I guess? 40 is pretty flexible. You can still do whatever with decent execution. Smoldering Air, Zeus highrolls, Splash Dash, Divine Strike + Support Fire, all of these nonsenses work well
Obviously ME will work but it's very far from the only way to make it happen lol
eager vortex
smoldering air and splash dash are great
they are also very popular
that's what I am talking about
try using something different and it just never really works
oh no ME isn't the only way, just the best way
also I've never heard about dd + support fire
that's new
honest kernel
I keep trying to make Talos and Curse of Drowning work, but I don't think the Talos buff lasts long enough.
halcyon flame
I keep trying to make Talos and Curse of Drowning work, but I don't think the Ta...
cast > special?
bronze viper
I guess? Idk, I've tried and had pretty decent success with Drunken Strike, Tempest Strike + Shoals, Deadly Strike + Heavy Knuckle, all sorts of nonsense on fists
Cast builds on Talos
shrug
eager vortex
maybe my build was just wrong ?
I was using zeus attack, crush shot and dd on talos
honest kernel
4 seconds is too little time for just how clunky Magnet Cutter is.
honest kernel
The pull is cool, the accompanying animation makes it unviable.
mossy zinc
"Popular." 98% of Malphon Smoldering Air runs are mine.
eager vortex
for backstab
I thought "hmm, this is a different and nice build, I can make it work"
guess what, it doesn't work
honest kernel
"Popular." 98% of Malphon Smoldering Air runs are mine. <:dusa:52224877140954318...
Yeah, because you have played more Malphon than literally the next 3 players combined.
bronze viper
"Popular." 98% of Malphon Smoldering Air runs are mine. <:dusa:52224877140954318...
eyeroll Lol, other people play this game too lmao
mossy zinc
They all play ME.
honest kernel
The one ME Malphon run I've ever done got me my first sub-11 on 32 Heat.
I can't blame them that much.
eager vortex
I'm trying my best to avoid me but game basically is saying to me "haha nerd stop using weird builds that will never work, me awaits"
honest kernel
I wish Hades would hand me ME over and over.
bronze viper
I used Zeus attack with/without Smoldering Air on all of my 40 clears with Fists, and I wouldn't exactly call my mechanics on those aspects stellar. Either you aren't prioritizing Jolted early enough, or it's a mechanical issue?
eager vortex
I'm gonna stop now but when I try again I'll do a artemis attack, aphro special heart rend build on talos
if that also doesn't work
ME it is
bronze viper
Minus Gilgamesh, definitely Splash Dashed that one.
honest kernel
@eager vortex Oh, I might try that on my next Malphon DT roll.
honest kernel
It's mainstream for a reason.
mossy zinc
I'd just ignore Special boons for the most part on Talos tbh.
honest kernel
I'd look for a Special to get a non-specific Duo like Exclusive Access.
bronze viper
You typically just cancel every suck anyway with a dash
mossy zinc
Talos can't really utilize Dash-Uppers for DPS like Zag Fists and Demeter can.
And the pull/debuff is situational.
honest kernel
Does anyone know how long the cooldown on Magnet Cutter is?
bronze viper
I wasn't aware there was one
honest kernel
It's not short.
eager vortex
only fists that I can clear high heat comfortably without using me is demeter
it's just a decent aspect all in all
honest kernel
I can only get the pull and buff every so often.
mossy zinc
The Dash-Upper on Zag Fists is still excellent. It plays very similar to Demeter.
honest kernel
I haven't played Hades in a few weeks, does it not fire on Dash-Uppers?
eager vortex
I like utilizing the dodge of zag fist and try finding second wind
honest kernel
Explosive Upper for a quick widespread Weak application is excellent on Zag, can confirm.
And 15% dodge is just nice.
honest kernel
It's still my #1 priority.
bronze viper
That was the way it used to work
eager vortex
you can block those skulls with shield then they disappear
honest kernel
I think we're a little late for that.
bronze viper
They nerfed Divine Dash
bronze viper
Nah, it is a little annoying having played when that did work, but it was so broken that literally any other dash was completely pointless
honest kernel
Amir's. Revenge.
bronze viper
Since it has very "meh" utility against Dad now, it leaves open a lot more dashes for damage or utility
honest kernel
obviously, every other Dash needs to be rebalanced to be as useful as reverted Divine Dash
bronze viper
I guess. I don't
eager vortex
with some exceptions
bronze viper
I really dislike getting Divine Dash over a damage dash at 50 now
eager vortex
where splash dash is better
mossy zinc
I wouldn't say pointless. The thing is the change hurts melee a lot, shield got even better at the fight when it was already the best, and ranged weapons never really cared one way or the other.
honest kernel
I definitely go for specific Dashes, but I think the big change was the ME/DR nerfs.
bronze viper
I don't think the Divine Dash nerf should have come necessarily in that way, but the choice was so one note before, and now it's less so, so at least something good came out of it.
eager vortex
why does shield's block make skulls disappear
bronze viper
They're aware of it at least. Appears to be an intentional change. shrug
honest kernel
Once you didn't have extra-easy nuclear Dooms and borderline perma-minimum 20% crits, the utility of other Dashes started to surface more.
halcyon flame
why does shield's block make skulls disappear
would you rather it not do that?
bronze viper
I despised ME before the nerf and I despised ME after the nerf, but speaking as someone who lived and breathed by Divine Dash pre 1.0 and now picks random dashes for fun/value now, there's a huge difference in mentality even ME/DR aside
eager vortex
makes the fight easier definitely
but it's unrealistic for deflect to just throw them away while touching them with the shield makes them disappear
also unbalanced
halcyon flame
it would be funny if deflecting the skulls applied boiling blood to hades when they hit him
honest kernel
there isnt much you can do if every other dash is just dmg and divine has defensive utility
eager vortex
well now that would be good
halcyon flame
multiple stacks of boiling blood 
mossy zinc
Well, the balance is for Divine Dash vs other dashes. I think it's in a way better spot than it used to be now.
honest kernel
Thematically speaking, I'm not sure Aegis ever confirmed that it gave up defense for offense, just that it didn't fit the usual mold of being a defensive item.
bronze viper
also unbalanced
Depends on how you picture balance I guess? I'd consider shields to be great but probably like 3rd in terms of balance at 50, and very far behind Eris, Hestia, Rama, hell, maybe even Chiron at 40
honest kernel
That being said, blocking is still a pretty massive outlier compared to every other weapon.
it prob is but I still dont wanna pick other dashes over divine tbh
mossy zinc
Deflect is universal. Block isn't. They're not mutually exclusive, either.
bronze viper
Weirdly I like Divine Dash more on shields than other aspects. Give you a little buffer of safety between your bull rushes
Minus Sword, where if I don't have DD I'm either Tidal Dash meming or dead.
mossy zinc
Balance between just Deflect and Block is kind of irrelevant imo.
honest kernel
Wait, you take Tidal Dash on Malphon?
bronze viper
Block destroying skulls doesn't make Deflect worse for everyone else lol
bronze viper
Wait, you take Tidal Dash on Malphon?
I said Sword, but also, sure why not
honest kernel
Sorry, must have misread.
eager vortex
sword and fists need dd on high heat
mossy zinc
It's the balance between easy-mode shield vs Malphon or Stygius in EM4 that irks me.
Normal Hades fight is whatever at this point, anyway.
eager vortex
sword and fists also the hardest weapons against dad
bronze viper
I literally do not think I could have cleared Zagius and Nemesis without Splash Dash to carry me
at 40*
honest kernel
it just means beo players are carried :-)
eager vortex
sword harder
bronze viper
I also Splash Dashed my way to Arthur 45 lmao
halcyon flame
i wonder if splash dash actually works on nem/zagius if you time your stabs right
bronze viper
Yeah, it works well with the dash strikes
Things typically get knocked back to your max range
eager vortex
well even I did beo 50, that just proves beo is easy at em4
bronze viper
And when things get scary just stop pressing attack
halcyon flame
i should do more practice runs with nemesis
eager vortex
and hades overall
halcyon flame
i'm horrible at using it
mossy zinc
it just means beo players are carried :-)
Modern Beowulf players. Exactly! In my days, I had to work without a block that made skulls disappear. Beowulf main life in Blood Price was hard. 😭
bronze viper
and hades overall
This is a horrific oversimplification lol. Nothing is easy with EM4 at 50 heat. Beowulf is easiest I think, but you can't make EM4 easy without your Chiron one in a trillion high roll lmao
honest kernel
I need to play with Beo a little more.
I was super obsessed with Lucifer during Blood Price.
bronze viper
Modern Beowulf players. Exactly! In my days, I had to work without a block that ...
Why block when everything dies in one hit
mossy zinc
Hades didn't die in one hit.
eager vortex
This is a horrific oversimplification lol. Nothing is easy with EM4 at 50 heat....
of course, easiest is the right word
bronze viper
Like 10 LOL
halcyon flame
hades can die in one hit if you stack up enough damage
or at least you can insta-phase him
lmao
bronze viper
No, I'm specifically referencing the one-boon atrocity of EA Charged Flight Beo lol
mossy zinc
I just counted. Took me 17 hits for phase 1 part 1.
bronze viper
Base 45 damage, with either Heartbreak or Deadly Flourish. Deadly hardly necessary because everything dies anyway
halcyon flame
i'd like to go to an older version and do a heartbreak charged flight run for fun just to see how it may compare to something like GY nowadays
bronze viper
The playstyle is identical to Charged Flight now. Pre-nerf Chaos doesn't play like anything now though
mossy zinc
I mean it compares as you would expect of something that does 135 base damage with no bounce vs 225 base damage that you can throw at a wall or pillar and will still hit your enemies.
halcyon flame
dread + charged flight
mossy zinc
I didn't like Dread Flight at all for Beowulf Charged Flight then.
halcyon flame
pre-nerf chaos seems cool, sadly i don't know of any way to check out the previous early access versions outside of going to a piracy site or something
mossy zinc
Honestly, it was a trap for normal encounters, too.
halcyon flame
dread was horrible then just as it is horrible now, good to know
bronze viper
Yeah, depending on room layout. I hate Dread Flight on every shield lol
halcyon flame
i guess that's why it's called "dread flight", it's dreadful in practice
mossy zinc
You kill two enemies with it anyway, and then your shield just flies off to nowhere lol.
Dread Flight is literally why I avoided second hammer like a plague on my 52 clear.
halcyon flame
ap2
bronze viper
pre-nerf chaos seems cool, sadly i don't know of any way to check out the previo...
Yeah it really was a joy to play. Chaos now is fun, and hell, even probably more gratifying to play, but I wish they chose to nerf Chaos is a less... transformative way.
halcyon flame
did you also have to wait for your shield to make its way back or did you actually have fun with chaos shield
bronze viper
"Gratifying" meaning that you make a positional and strategic decision and get to see it pay off
Old Chaos did not do that lmao. You picked... a place, specialed, then watched the carnage
halcyon flame
star pattern
bouncing multi-shields
mossy zinc
The Fates chose a place for you.
bronze viper
I don't know? I think the shield return mechanics are the same, but because of the starfish pattern + ricochet, you didn't need the shield to return as fast because you could be wherever you wanted to be
halcyon flame
seems like zeus/doom special heaven
honest kernel
Yeah it really was a joy to play. Chaos now is fun, and hell, even probably mor...
I need to play more Chaos on lower Heat before reattempting 32.
I gotta relearn it entirely.
mossy zinc
If you can play Zag Shield or Zeus, you can play Chaos Aspect.
bronze viper
You tagged 5/10/infinite enemies with Jolted anyway so you could hang back and wait for your shield to return then repeat
Now you need your shield ASAP to maintain Jolted on a small subset of enemies
mossy zinc
You meant to say now you need Charged Shot asap to just ignore your Special from there.
bronze viper
Lol, it certainly helps :3
halcyon flame
i feel like chaos shield is very different from zag and zeus
halcyon flame
zeus definitely feels different, zag shield i just never got to use charge shot with /shrug
bronze viper
With very slightly more range, mobility, but no burst whatsoever without Charged Shot
Zeus is just sufficiently difficult that if you can figure out how to make it work at high heat you're probably fine playing Chaos lol
mossy zinc
Zeus is base shield + another shield that doubles your DPS for free.
Chaos is base shield + a special you throw occasionally to supplement your DPS with AOE.
Zag is base shield + extra damage.
halcyon flame
is there any particular build that's best for 32 chaos shield?
i feel like just going with drunken flourish since i had fun when i tried it but it's honestly too much of a high roll
bronze viper
is there any particular build that's best for 32 chaos shield?
What you'd expect. Jolted, Drunken Flourish. Doom is pretty bad now though.
mossy zinc
They hardly play any different for me when I want DPS. Zeus is just very good shield fundamentals + extra DPS from your shield, and you adjust your positioning more to get the most out of both your base shield and your Special.
halcyon flame
drunken flourish + bad influence is actually pretty nice for room-clearing since it's so easy to tag multiple enemies with hangover
bronze viper
Yeah. It takes some positioning to get good shotguns with Drunken Flourish though
Fortunately you get your shields back instantly if you do it right so it plays pretty smoothly
bronze viper
... don't
halcyon flame
probably gonna go horribly, who knows
bronze viper
Just don't lol
halcyon flame
what should i put in place of it? ap1?
honest kernel
Fear is for the weak.
bronze viper
AP1 is fine. TD3 is just depressing until you get your mechanics on point with aiming shields and whatnot. Chaos has the potential to waste so much time
halcyon flame
i probably should turn off hs
chamber 1 hammer, i wonder if i can get triple bomb if i switch to luci
nope. it was worth a shot
mossy zinc
For Chaos, Jolted or Doom don't require much maintenance, so you just throw it out occasionally, and only really at crowds. So most of what you're doing for DPS is just base shield. For single enemies, the extra shields don't really matter much. With Hangover, you only really shotgun some tanky mobs and bosses occasionally, and it's very low maintenance. So most of what you're doing is still base shield.
bronze viper
FO2 is easier with Chaos than BP2 I think
That's probably subjective
JS1 over CF1 I think, especially with TD2, you can put a ton into JS/CP/DC and it doesn't matter much.
mossy zinc
I'd definitely do TD3 at 32 Heat. Shouldn't be difficult. It's basically any heat pace with maybe +1 or 2 minutes with some pacts.
halcyon flame
i could totally easily do jury summons
bronze viper
It seems insanely unnecessary to add the fail rate if you're not confident with the aspect to use TD3 at 32 heat when there are so many other options that won't significantly increase difficulty
TD2 also lets you fill out your build with Trials/non-free rooms, play safely, take Obol troves, etc.
mossy zinc
Lack of confidence doesn't imply a high fail rate. I think he's just overestimating the difficulty of TD3.
bronze viper
I thought you were talking about 40 when I suggest AP1. Don't bother at 32
mossy zinc
TD2 also lets you fill out your build with Trials/non-free rooms, play safely, t...
TD2 vs TD3 means you're putting 3 Heat into things that hurt your build like CF UC AP.
hoary pasture
Great start lol
bronze viper
For Chaos, Jolted or Doom don't require much maintenance, so you just throw it o...
You can't attack or shield or anything while your main shield has not returned.
mossy zinc
Then why are you throwing your Special so much?
hoary pasture
Nyaanyaa got too addicted to Zag shield
honest kernel
To be fair, PB Zag Shield is both very strong and very fun.
vital grove
Zag shield is legit strong
halcyon flame
so far very good. got low tolerance in the last tart shop and i also have curse of vengeance
mossy zinc
I think all three are fun and have their own twist. But they're still fundamentally shield and rely a lot on Attack damage.
The best hammer for all three is an Attack hammer.
halcyon flame
i won't be getting splitting sadly since demeter already took arty's spot but i don't need crits anyways
mossy zinc
Beowulf is the only one that really changes shield in a fundamental way—until you pick up Charged Shot, anyway. Then it's base shield Charged Shot with free nukes.
halcyon flame
aand i was forced to sell curse of vengeance. i forgot you can't sell nourished soul
honest kernel
Unsellables boons bug me.
I think we've seen the last of Hades, but I wish we would get a final master patch.
halcyon flame
managed to get vengeance back in mid-shop and secured con in the next chamber
"this is too much of a high-roll"
proceeds to get lt + con mid-asphodel
solar maple
td2 is a scam 🙂
mossy zinc
Unsellables boons bug me.
I think a few of them make sense, I don't think Nourished Soul does.
honest kernel
Definitely not NS, nor Premium Vintage.
Sunken Treasure, no.
Excuse me, you should not be able to "sell" Sunken Treasure.
halcyon flame
6 minutes out of asphodel
honest kernel
I'm trying to think of another boon that doesn't provide extended benefits but I don't think there is one.
halcyon flame
maybe td2 wasn't the best choice after all
mossy zinc
so far very good. got low tolerance in the last tart shop and i also have curse ...
I'd sell that for UC. Chaos Special only applies 5 stacks anyway. 400+ is a lot of money.
halcyon flame
monkey brain likes the number 8 so i'll just stick with lt
bronze viper
Excuse me, you should *not* be able to "sell" Sunken Treasure.
At the very least, taking Sunken Treasure should prevent Sunken Treasure from showing up in the future