h1-high-heat-strategies

[true fable]

nothing more fun than soaker with all the nuts

[rain sedge]

Got to heroes

That build needs sea storm

[mossy zinc]

This channel exists so I can trash-talk give other high heat players feedback without intimidating casual players.

[true fable]

does it matter if you go to builds and combat to intimidate the casual players anyway

[mossy zinc]

Yep. I can just say I thought I was in the other channel.

[true fable]

lol

[rain sedge]

Yea you went pretty far with flaming bablo

[mossy zinc]

I forgot bablo is a casual player.

You're right.

[true fable]

tbf nyaanyaa flames anyone who does GY

proportional with how much you play GY

[rain sedge]

WeirdChamp

[gaunt fiber]

I see...

[rain sedge]

Astaos learned from you I see

[mossy zinc]

bablo himself says he's not good with Guan Yu.

[true fable]

i dont understand that aspect tbh

why is it 50% health gain

50% max health i get

but 50% gain is pure suffering

[rain sedge]

It's literally press special for 15 minutes

[gaunt fiber]

nope

that's wrong

[true fable]

astaos you gotta explain these things to schad

dont you see his tag

[gaunt fiber]

I just did

[mossy zinc]

I also don't put players I compete with for high heat on a pedestal lol. Everybody's getting trash-talked advice.

[shy plinth]

We could probably figure out some way to do this if you want

Sorry I slept a million hours

[mossy zinc]

If you die in Tartarus, you die in Tartarus. Ain't my fault for pointing it out.

[rain sedge]

Sorry, 5 mins on average since you die on Tartarus

[true fable]

LUL

schad not you too

[gaunt fiber]

[mossy zinc]

tbf nyaanyaa flames anyone who does GY
Lol m holding back compared to how I smack-talk in the FGC. Just the culture. It ain't ever serious.

[true fable]

its all in good fun idm

[gaunt fiber]

yeah real fun

[true fable]

looool

ive been taking some really weird total heat numbers

probably because i stopped paying attention to the number

[mossy zinc]

Unless I mean you just keep dying to the same fight over and over again with an easy aspect like Guan Yu. Then I don't know what to tell you. It's like at that point "you won't make it" is just trying to help somebody out.

[sly remnant]

nyaa just motivates us all to play better

[gaunt fiber]

I've conquered phase 1

[proud jay]

"motivates"

[mossy zinc]

@shy plinth sounds good! I'll be pretty busy all week probably. But just ping me with any ideas.

@proud jay I motivated you to get all aspects to 40+ in Early Access by making that aspect "tier list" that showed which aspects cleared what heat. So it's clearly working.

[proud jay]

that i can call motivating

not sure about the other stuff

[mossy zinc]

What about all my Guan Yu advice?

[proud jay]

helpful

[sly remnant]

did you really make an aspect tier list just based on what heat they've cleared?

i assume ironically?

[proud jay]

it was updated when people got to 40+ with the aspect

[hollow lynx]

it's not really a tier list, more of an achievement list

[sly remnant]

ah i see

[hollow lynx]

this is the highest heat x aspect has done

(that we know of)

[mossy zinc]

Yeah, it was to keep track of that. The new leaderboard does that automatically thanks to @shy plinth.

[shy plinth]

Yep it just gives an idea of where each weapon is at

It can give people ideas of goals to set with specific weapons as well

Or clear with one of the 4 uncleared aspects atm

[sly remnant]

what are the 4 uncleared

[shy plinth]

I'm sure there are runs out there for some of those that just haven't been submitted

[proud jay]

im going to tackle the 4 uncleared ones (probably tomorrow)

[shy plinth]

Should be on player weapon index tab, talos nemesis zag rail and hera

[mossy zinc]

Wobbles did all aspects at 45 in 1.0 but didn't submit those runs.

Tailesque and I both did Talos and didn't record lol. Or I think Tailesque just forgot to upload it.

[proud jay]

ah right wobbles did 45, right

so i should go for at least 46?

[mossy zinc]

For the official record, you don't have to since he didn't submit them.

[proud jay]

did he record/stream

[mossy zinc]

You could submit all of your runs from your streak.

[proud jay]

idk who cares about 40

i should probably highlight the streak anyway tho

[mossy zinc]

I think a lot of players like to check out those runs to learn from it.

[proud jay]

@gaunt fiber if i submit a 40 heat run does anyone watch it?

[gaunt fiber]

I'd watch a 40 EM4

[proud jay]

yeah i don't do EM4 XD

man im so bad at the fight

[mossy zinc]

And you get to put up the most runs on the leaderboard atm.

[proud jay]

i have like four EM4 clears ever

[gaunt fiber]

you need to train it or you won't be able to do 63

[proud jay]

i don't want to do AP2 in general

it's the reason i moved from 50+ to speedruns

[mossy zinc]

Any clout might help grow your twitch and stuff. Your name comes up pretty often in the server, so I imagine just by seeing your name on the leaderboard, some people will be interested to watch.

[proud jay]

i might as well go for 45 heat since i feel like it's quite doable in general

[mossy zinc]

Yeah, 45 feels like a sweet spot for many aspects.

[sly remnant]

50 is when things get a bit spicy

[mossy zinc]

At 50, things are getting very rough, yeah. Way less consistency.

[sly remnant]

and there's basically two kinds of people

TD3 50 and AP2 50

[mossy zinc]

And me taking both.

[sly remnant]

when did you run both and on what weapon?

because i'd love to learn from that run

since i'm sure your bspeed is entirely mechanical based

[gaunt fiber]

I can smell some sarcasm

[sly remnant]

i'm not being sarcastic

i learned a ton about zeus shield watching baj's TD3 AP2 run

[mossy zinc]

Rama today when I died to EM3, I think. I tried a few different pact combos. Actually I think the AP2 TD3 one might have been where I died to Lernie.

I got a natural Unhealthy Fixation with Heartbreak Flourish in Tartarus lol.

[sly remnant]

lmfao

well thats the strat guys

get unhealthy fixation in Tartarus with AP2

(but i'm still legitimately interested in learning better mechanics)

its why i have a coaching session with wwriste tomorrow on beowulf

[mossy zinc]

My AP2 strat for 52 Heat was Epic Greatest Reflex.

And a Charged Flight seed that may have helped a little.

[gaunt fiber]

tfw your only coach is death

[sly remnant]

lol wriste offers coaching for free

and if you wanna learn beo mechanics....there are like 2 players at his level on the weapon

[mossy zinc]

@gaunt fiber m your coach. Go die more to EM4. If you're typing, you have energy to do more practice.

[gaunt fiber]

the only thing I did with beo is killing Skelly

[mossy zinc]

Once you accept death, you'll overcome it.

[gaunt fiber]

What a coach

My hands hurt after 1 hour of EM4

I have energy but that's it lol

[mossy zinc]

You're not dead inside yet. Gotta do more dying to EM4.

[gaunt fiber]

Odd cheering

but at least it's free I guess

[mossy zinc]

I do individual coaching depending on the coachee's needs.

[gaunt fiber]

lmao

[mossy zinc]

Do you throw your spear at Hades when he throws his?

[gaunt fiber]

No I deflect it so he acts like a drunk Achilles aspect player

that's a lot of fun

[mossy zinc]

Throw your spear.

[true fable]

i would watch a 40 GY

[mossy zinc]

There, I helped.

[true fable]

that weapon eludes me

[gaunt fiber]

...

[mossy zinc]

The one aspect bablo can't play. How unfortunate.

[true fable]

tbh i dont think i have much to learn for speed beowulf but high heat beowulf feels like a different weapon

LOL ok fine nemesis would be cool too

on beowulf i just want to get better at RTA/high heat

poseidon run would also be nice

basically sword

[mossy zinc]

The way you play Guan Yu at 40+ is die > die > die > "oh nice finally Charged Skewer seed" > win.

[gaunt fiber]

Poseidon aspect is in my top 3 most played

[sly remnant]

i think speed beo and high heat beo are very similar weapons

i think there's just mroe to learn about the weapon

[mossy zinc]

Poseidon
basically sword
Bit of a stretch there.

[true fable]

we'll agree to disagree tyler

[mossy zinc]

I mean it's technically a sword, I guess.

Technically.

[true fable]

obviously some things are similar but you have to play different because of BP and DC hearts imo

[sly remnant]

sure. like i favor demeter way more at high heat than i do at speed

but the mechanics are very similar

[true fable]

since things also have different "threat levels" per se there are some positions that are ideal for speed that will earn you a quick trip back to dad's house on high heat

[sly remnant]

all things we agree on

but i think thats the difference between every weapon for speed and high heat

[true fable]

i will also say that i dash attack a lot more in speed in tartarus and bull rush more in high heat

since dash attack is important to one shot many things in tart

your mirror also is just very different

[sly remnant]

ye dash is huge

not being able to oneshot everything in tartarus is huge

its actually why i favor an early splash dash so much

and snow burst even more....but snow burst in tartarus is a high roll

[mossy zinc]

Any heat speedruns ignore mechanics that are suboptimal for speed but can be important for high heat. E.g., Charged Flight has like no relevance in any heat speedruns but is very strong at high heat and becomes honestly necessary when you run RI3+.

[sly remnant]

do you use charged flight at high heat beo tho?

[true fable]

yes

[honest kernel]

Hmm Hmm

[true fable]

did you see retrash's run

[honest kernel]

Basically the Charged Skewer for Beo

The moment you turn on AP/RI

[sly remnant]

wait which one is charged flight

[honest kernel]

Charge the special throw on shield

[true fable]

hold special for up to +200%

[honest kernel]

It's literally the same as the spear one lol

[gaunt fiber]

Hey I know that one

[sly remnant]

ye is it that good?

[honest kernel]

For Beo, yes

[sly remnant]

i mean i guess with AP2 you don't have a choice what you get

[true fable]

watch retrash's run imo

[mossy zinc]

It's like a worse Charged Skewer on Guan Yu, yeah.

[honest kernel]

For other shields ? Not as much

[true fable]

that one was very enlightening

almost only specials

tempest flourish was a godsend

[sly remnant]

i skimmed through the run i guess i'll need to watch it more closely

[mossy zinc]

I'd take Charged Flight 10/10 times in Tartarus at high heat if I see it.

[sly remnant]

i mean i guess its safe

[mossy zinc]

It also just works with one boon and some poms on it.

[true fable]

you clear rooms stupid fast too

though i still need to learn how to special

[sly remnant]

ye

i'll try nyaa's bouncing technique

since the attack to cursor doesn't work

oh he got charged flight dread flight

that makes more sense

[true fable]

yup

some bodyslammin wallslammin action in tartarus from the tempest flourish too

[sly remnant]

ye

and the natural athena means he doesn't have to use block as much

[true fable]

wallslams and bodyslams arent really things i actively think about until i soaker

and then they occupy like 90% of my brain space

[sly remnant]

yea wallslam and body slam is how i've been getting out of tartarus more reliably

forTD3 at least

[honest kernel]

Beo wall slams are not as practical

Because that attack is so slow

And you just nuke things anyways once you get rolling

With other shields, it's pretty important on big foes

[sly remnant]

its super important early

thats why tidal dash is so good early on beo

[honest kernel]

Interesting, gonna have to watch a speedrun or two for that

...

Oh Tidal dash lol

I was moreso thinking without any boons in mind lol

[sly remnant]

ohhhhhh

you still do it

its free damage

[honest kernel]

Really gonna have to watch

Because shield Dash-Attack doesn't do knockback, it's only regular and BullRush

[true fable]

tidal dash is not ideal imo for speed beo

[sly remnant]

no not for speed beo

i'm talking high heat

[true fable]

good for high heat though

yeah

i still think thunder dash can get the job done though

[sly remnant]

@honest kernel you are bullrushing all the time on beo

[true fable]

although zeus' aid might be more optimal

[honest kernel]

Fair enough

[true fable]

baj i tried emulating your zeus shield play on zag shield

you are correct

zag shield is just worse zeus shield

[sly remnant]

a good beo player uses bullrush to group enemies together into a corner or wall in order to get as much damage as possible

wow heroic special with charged dread flight

it is sgood and safe

retrash's fundamentals are definitely top tier

[honest kernel]

Anyone that plays at high heat with different weapons' bound to have 'em

Bablo, Retrash, Tailesque ...

[gaunt fiber]

Ah

Different weapons...

[true fable]

right

[sly remnant]

ooo a 2 sack

those must be nice

[true fable]

yeah idk i think shield has made me worse at sensing danger

need to develop a sense for when to get out of dodge

[gaunt fiber]

GY is the exact opposite lmao

[true fable]

maybe i'll join you in GY 40 grind

[sly remnant]

idk even with all the high rolls this damage is still....meh

[gaunt fiber]

I don't grind 40 I grind EM4

[honest kernel]

Welcome to High Heat Beo with AP and RI

[true fable]

... on 40 heat right

[gaunt fiber]

Yeah

But the important part is EM4

Since 40 non EM4 is """"easy""""

[sly remnant]

i disagree. i think we still have things to learn

[honest kernel]

I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong

[true fable]

my main thing is that beo usually scales lategame via boons

and boons are kinda hard to come by on RI1 AP2 CF2 UC

[sly remnant]

bruh he timed out on TD2 with this build

i'm not convinced

[honest kernel]

What else is there

That's the thing

[sly remnant]

i think this AP2 thing is a meme on beo

[honest kernel]

And without AP2, and to an extent, RI, you need the heat somewhere else

It hardcaps

[true fable]

what do you mean

[honest kernel]

Basically, what I'm saying is

How far can you push the heat without AP2

[true fable]

i did 45 heat with everything except TD3 RI AP and CF

any more than that and i think id need to fundamentally change how i approach the weapon

[honest kernel]

^

And so far, no one found a way

Other than Charged Flight lol

[true fable]

maybe when i have my new pc more computing power means more brain power to figure this out

until then im not doing 45+ heat on beo again

[sly remnant]

lol without a 4 sack and a mediocre build i do 50

[honest kernel]

Thing is

at 50 heat, Mediocre is the best you can get

[sly remnant]

and i wasn't running CF at all or PL

[honest kernel]

Unless you get super lucky

[sly remnant]

i mean with a 2 sac which is exactly what retrash got

i do 50 heat with a hell of a lot better time

[true fable]

i suppose

[sly remnant]

this is the thing about this AP2 meme

it gives the illusion of a hard cap on the weapon

some weapons EXCEL at AP2

[honest kernel]

It's not just AP2

[true fable]

its not about a hard cap on a weapon

[honest kernel]

It's also RI

[sly remnant]

beo isn't one of them

[true fable]

why do you think youre getting mediocre builds? is it possibly the AP?

[rain sedge]

Whoa I'm gone for like an hour and this channel is super on topic

[sly remnant]

nah i've actually thrown 3 insane runs one day ago

[honest kernel]

RI1 means getting Beo online is a lot harder. RI2 makes the run take longer to kick off in general. RI3 on Beo is lol

[rain sedge]

I see nya has bullied more people

[true fable]

schad you bring the casual energy i suppose

the levity

[sly remnant]

i think beo caps at 53 heat and possibly 55

[rain sedge]

I am indeed a casual

I can't even remember the feeling of having to get trash boon to resell it for UC

[sly remnant]

i think beo with aphro cast can go to 55

[rain sedge]

Low heat is chill and fun for a casual like me

[spring kettle]

I put UC on when I'm around 10 heat

[rain sedge]

This is seriously some of the most annoying thing in the game

[spring kettle]

Just have to remember to get at least one useless boon to sell later

[rain sedge]

I did this for low just ish heat and I swear

You CANNOT hit the cast stones

[sly remnant]

what do you mean?

[true fable]

up to 15 heat i just do some random combination of TD EM anr FO

too used to it

[rain sedge]

The hitbox is so weird

[true fable]

it is a bit weird

thats why i dont like aphro cast tbh

[rain sedge]

Honestly I timed out because the cast damage just won't hit the enemy

[sly remnant]

i just have no interest in looking at aphro cast

[true fable]

feels like sometimes the bull rush pushes them out of the cast

[sly remnant]

someone else can optimize it

[rain sedge]

It might be the uhhh missile bull rush hammer

[dire steppe]

zag fists feels so slow but i actually usually clear tartarus pretty fast with it somehow

[true fable]

think bablo was trying it

[rain sedge]

But it's unbelievable how rare the cast actually hits

[dire steppe]

like but it doesnt seem that way at all

[sly remnant]

i'm certain beo dio can do 53

[true fable]

fists are just super fast

what pact tyler?

[rain sedge]

I'm never not doing dio beo anymore

[sly remnant]

no RI only AP1

[rain sedge]

I mean fist with Zeus attack is basically a discount eris

[true fable]

full damage control?

[sly remnant]

i'm running DC2 right now

[dire steppe]

apparently theres a mod thats ap3

lol

[sly remnant]

its making me a better dio player

[dire steppe]

boons and hammers do nothing

[spring kettle]

AP3, if you just want a boonless run

[true fable]

i did DC2 but havent really tried with TD3

sounds miserable dawg

[sly remnant]

it is miserable

[true fable]

best of luck if you want to do that

[sly remnant]

bu tthe weapon can do it

that run where i got 4 sacked

[true fable]

mostly bull rush/dash to strip hearts and deliver the payload?

[sly remnant]

nah

you use the first required normal attack

to pop one heart

then the bullrus

then the cast

thta 4 sack run was full JS3 CP2 DC2 TD3

so the weapon can definitely do it

[true fable]

hmmm

will try again

might try 48 heat

all my homies hate AP

[sly remnant]

i'm getting better at dealing with DC hearts

its a process

but thats why i think this AP2 is a meme

[true fable]

was that a pun

process

[sly remnant]

i think AP2 has duped people into thinking there is a 50/51 heat hardcap on beo

[honest kernel]

To be fair

I never specified the actual cap

[proud jay]

i have multiple 40 heat clears on GY ok???

[honest kernel]

But RI on beo is like super bad

[proud jay]

also 45 heat hera took me exactly one try

[rain sedge]

Weird flex but ok

[true fable]

did you record?

[honest kernel]

AP2 doesn't help

[rain sedge]

What's the build?

[proud jay]

yeah

[sly remnant]

thats why you don't run RI

[proud jay]

crush shot

[true fable]

id like to see that

snow burst?

[rain sedge]

Yikes?

[proud jay]

didn't find snow burst

[rain sedge]

I gotta see this

[true fable]

sir where was your aoe

[sly remnant]

bablo's an insanely good beo player

i'd be interested how high he thinks the wseapon can go

[rain sedge]

Bablo what's your highest heat

Come push heat with us

[proud jay]

54 in pre-1.0

[honest kernel]

Pretty sure Bablo's tired of AP

[true fable]

rode that white rush delivery to the finish line

[rain sedge]

Do a retrash and run some weird aspects

[proud jay]

i run weird (all) aspects all the time, just not a fan of 50+ since it kinda forces you into AP2

[true fable]

if anyone asks me why dark foresight is good im showing them that victory screen

[rain sedge]

I didn't do ap2 for my 50

[true fable]

did you forget your boons in tartarus

[rain sedge]

I don't think many people do

[honest kernel]

AP1 is pretty common, however

[rain sedge]

Yeah

[true fable]

even AP1 is quite obnoxious

im not a fan

i will avoid it on principle unless im gameplanning for it

[rain sedge]

Resetting whenever I didn't get chain lightning was the second most unfun things I've done in this game

[sly remnant]

i'm considering dropping Ap1 for CF

[true fable]

its about the principle of the thing amir

im hoping hes lurking and finally convinced to change AP

[rain sedge]

I m e a n

[proud jay]

he's received multiple essays about AP already

[dire steppe]

what would AP even be changed to

[true fable]

LOL i know

[rain sedge]

If we vote on things amir can change

[true fable]

it just still upsets me

[proud jay]

but idk he did ask me at what heat level i feel like you start losing control over what's happening

[rain sedge]

Im sure ap is NOT the top list

[true fable]

👀

[sly remnant]

i'm sure AP is the top of my list

[true fable]

thats a good sign

[rain sedge]

Rly

[proud jay]

apparently he really liked the 40 heat streak

[true fable]

AP is also at the top of my list

[rain sedge]

Not idk

[dire steppe]

what would AP even be changed to tho

[true fable]

along with set # of free rooms per biome

[rain sedge]

The other random mechanic that invalidates your whole goddamn run?

[sly remnant]

i liked the idea i heard of attaching chaos boon to regular boons for approval process

[proud jay]

my proposition is to exclude 1: legendaries 2: duos 3: etc

[true fable]

if you get five sacked and lose that means you werent ready for a five sack

:3

just go again

[dire steppe]

whats etc

[rain sedge]

I know you're trolling but this still upsets me

[dire steppe]

divine dash? lol

[proud jay]

rarities

[rain sedge]

Or big brain

[true fable]

all white boon win screen

[dire steppe]

oh like it preferentially excludes legendarios?

[rain sedge]

Replace AP with sac certainty

[proud jay]

but even removing legendaries and duos means that you kinda can't "cheese" high heat victories

[dire steppe]

then you’d literally never be able to get a duo

[proud jay]

yes

[rain sedge]

Ap1 give 3 sac for sure, ap2 give 4 sac, ap3 4 sac

There you go I fixed it

[sly remnant]

i like bablo's solution

[rain sedge]

Not being able to get duos ruin literally half the builds

[proud jay]

currently AP doesn't change anything if you're willing to reset often enough

[dire steppe]

so AP would be like maximum boon rarity

[sly remnant]

i also liked the idea i heard that you can use a roll to uncross a boon

[true fable]

if your build relies on a duo find something else

at least you can gameplan that

[dire steppe]

i was gonna say AP4+exclusive access but then i remembered you don’t get exclusive access lol

[rain sedge]

Don't your beo build need 2 duos and chaos cast

[true fable]

sir that is why i do not run AP

[sly remnant]

you only need one duo

[true fable]

and yeah one duo is optional

its also not my build

[spring kettle]

AP4?

What's that?

You only get like 4 rolls, since you don't get that many keys in a run

[rain sedge]

Ok I sleep, wake me up when they reworked sac mechanic

Nighty night friends

[true fable]

the only AP runs that are interesting to me are the ones where they have a plan for AP and getting terrible boons

[dire steppe]

ap4 would be no legendary duo heroic or epic

[rain sedge]

I'll say hi to Hypnos for you all

[true fable]

if its just a ramming of the head against the wall im not interested

bye schad

[sly remnant]

which some aspects are great at

thats the issue

[proud jay]

TD3 kinda forces you to reset if you get bad boons

[dire steppe]

isn’t that also the case for JS and DC

aspect dependent

[sly remnant]

sure but you can plan for it

[true fable]

To some extent youre always going to have to reset some runs

i can accept that

[proud jay]

apparently 50+ meta is rolling with TD2 and almost everything else maxed out

[sly remnant]

^

which i hate

[true fable]

that seems right

[sly remnant]

i don't think we are learning things with that generic approach

[proud jay]

you learn surviving

and you can potentially take non-scaling builds to the end

[true fable]

^

[sly remnant]

sure

but thats like

learning survival

is that why we play hades

[proud jay]

what do you play hades for

resetting?

[true fable]

an important skill if you want to win the game

surviving

[honest kernel]

I just have the slightest feeling that each weapon/aspect has it's own optimal pact

[proud jay]

with TD2 you don't need to reset nearly as much

[honest kernel]

Might just be me idk

[true fable]

LOL thanks baj

[proud jay]

well yeah a lot of aspects handle TD3 much better than others

[spring kettle]

I feel like I shouldn't be running DC on Arthur

[sly remnant]

look bablo i'm unhappy with the 50+ heat meta

[honest kernel]

I barely handled it with Zeus Shield lol

[proud jay]

you shouldn't be running anything on arthur

[sly remnant]

my issue with some of the pacts

is that they have encouraged not understanding the aspect

[true fable]

how does that not encourage understanding

[sly remnant]

because you are just sticking generic stuff and not timing out

its all generic builds

aphro, athena, zeus

[proud jay]

i think people generally agree that ultra high heat would be in a much better place with just a couple of slight tweaks to the pact

[sly remnant]

on like everything

[sly remnant]

this is how i feel

[true fable]

i dont think i can convince you that theres merit to those pacts

[sly remnant]

there is merit to those pacts

like look at zeus shield

zeus shield is a weapon that is so good at AP2 and thats really cool

[true fable]

resetting to get the perfect build just isnt interesting to me

[sly remnant]

its not about resetting

[true fable]

and that doesnt sound like an elegant solution to AP2

[sly remnant]

i mean just remove AP

[true fable]

i did

[sly remnant]

the problem is that the way some of the pacts are weighted it favors aspects

[proud jay]

there was some discussion about making AP2 worth 0 heat, but even that is kinda silly

[true fable]

well

the pact does not favor certain aspects

it favors how you want to play that aspect

[sly remnant]

AP2 is 5 heat

[true fable]

and i think you need to accept that how you want to play that aspect is at best an affectation

i love playing dio cast beowulf

i also recognize it will be very difficult to make that work at 50 heat, and there are probably better options

[sly remnant]

i have said that several times

its not about my aspect

take sword

sword is a weapon that works decently well with AP2 and terrible with everything else

[dire steppe]

i like bright’s idea of ap

[sly remnant]

AP just either forces you to play an aspect that doesn't care about it or reset a lot

or we slap AP2 on everything and look at an aspect and say, "see it can do 50 heat"

[true fable]

well, it can

50 is a number

[sly remnant]

yes and thats all it is

[true fable]

correct

[sly remnant]

and thats the issue

[true fable]

because you want the number to be reflective of...?

i think we all agree that AP is bad

[sly remnant]

not all of us lol

[true fable]

or poorly designed

who says that AP is good

we take it because it is heat in the current pact

[sly remnant]

nyaa likes AP

[true fable]

thats the first im hearing of it

[sly remnant]

really? she's quite vocal about liking it

[true fable]

i just dont think it's fair to say those weapons "can't" do 50 heat just because they did it with AP2

they did 50 heat so they did 50 heat

[sly remnant]

no they absolutely can do 50 heat

[true fable]

it is what it is

[sly remnant]

AP isn't the pact the weapon likes

but right now we are slapping it on everything

not all weapons like AP2

[true fable]

ok

[sly remnant]

and we are treating it as if they do

[true fable]

i feel like we're talking in circles

[sly remnant]

the point i'm trying to make is that AP2 RI 1 or 2 TD2 are worth so much heat we aren't innovating with other pacts and understanding of aspects

[true fable]

ok

[sly remnant]

they are just worth too much and stunting our understanding

[true fable]

gotcha

[proud jay]

what's left to innovate with the pact tho

[honest kernel]

^

[sly remnant]

well that i agree with

[daring hedge]

yeah like, we're pretty much using about all of it by now

[dire steppe]

when ppl are doing 57 heat there’s no innovation

[spring kettle]

Only TAS can do max 63/64 heat

[honest kernel]

I theorically could do more

With TD2

But it's too much stress at this point because that'd mean EM4

[proud jay]

i feel like max heat would be somewhat doable but AP2 makes it very unlikely to ever happen

[sly remnant]

i mean i'd love the pact to get a rework i just don't think we are getting it

[proud jay]

the plan is to find stubborn roots with skelly tooth, but how often do you really get there

[daring hedge]

same with RI4, i think. asking perfect play like that exacerbated by the rest of the pact is an extremely tall order

[honest kernel]

If someone's good enough to do RI4 EM4, there shouldn't be too much stopping them

RI3 is my stopping point

[sly remnant]

i mean i agree RI4 and AP2 are incredibly unhealthy

[proud jay]

even RI3 is quite sketchy for non-shield

[sly remnant]

i think they shouldn't exist

but unless i'm wrong that isn't gonna change

[proud jay]

i like RI4 for... RI4 runs

[sly remnant]

what i meant by innovation is that we aren't trying to understand aspects past 50/51 because TD2 warps our perception so much

[daring hedge]

not sure what you mean by that

[proud jay]

there are more aspects than high heat players

[honest kernel]

^^^^^^

[proud jay]

a lot of aspects aren't very interesting at high heat anyway

[sly remnant]

on that we agree

[honest kernel]

Zag aspects are super dull/tend to lack damage outside of very specific hammer setups. That's already a fourth of the aspects gone

[north dove]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/599449585710006288/785322899468189706/unknown.png tried cursed slash Arthur. It... did not go well

[dire steppe]

zag sword best sword tho

[daring hedge]

certain levels of aspect expression naturally get cut due to damage output or survival reasons at high heat e.g. arthur combos or talos special uppercut

[proud jay]

@north dove what is the answer to arthur

im struggling with it the most currently

[daring hedge]

not taking DC

[north dove]

No clue

[dire steppe]

arthur is cool until you turn on FO2

[proud jay]

DC, AP and FO2 suck big time

i kinda rolled with AP1 and RI1 and hoped to get lucky enough

[daring hedge]

my 48 with arthur was just about the most grueling unpleasant run

even without DC

[true fable]

"cursed slash arthur" excuse me what

tailesque did you roll out RI2 with that

[daring hedge]

yeah

[sly remnant]

in my dream world theres an understanding of what each aspect can do and not hold them all to the same standard. but that isn't reflected in the pact or the fact that every aspect "theoretically" can do everything

[proud jay]

also arthur is just terrible if you fail to find a hammer that says "double"

[daring hedge]

#h1-victory-boasting message like

an absolute slog

did not enjoy

[proud jay]

28 minute run xd

that doesn't happen very often right?

[true fable]

those hammers look like ass

[sly remnant]

with TD2 AP2

the 28 minute run happens all the time

[daring hedge]

yeah, by far my longest 40-50 heat run, i think

[sly remnant]

well tailesque is a good

but the "urrent"beo WR was a 28+ run

its how most aspects are getting over the 50 heat hump

[proud jay]

including both AP and TD in the pact was a terrible idea

[sly remnant]

lol yes it was

[daring hedge]

still miles better than beefy update high heat where +500% vicious torment and no TD meant 45 minute runs where you'd walk on eggshells

[true fable]

tight deadline just means so many other pacts are 10x worse

[proud jay]

im happy i started just before blood price

[true fable]

not sure if theres another pact that scales that poorly with others

[sly remnant]

RI and AP scale pretty awfully with each other

but yea TD3 warps a lot

[true fable]

the difference between TD2 and TD3 is just so stark

[sly remnant]

the thing is....TD is supposed to reward playing a glass cannon. the problem is its a sliding scale so TD2 is free for most good players

TD3 doesn't reward what its supposed to

[proud jay]

TD3 is still solid at 40ish

[sly remnant]

i agree

[daring hedge]

i mean, i would say that TD also rewards efficient play all around. naturally room and sack rng can complicate this

but still

[sly remnant]

oh i like TD most of the time

i think its an entertaining pact

the problem is half of the pact is focused around making things longer

[proud jay]

i think it's worth pointing out that 50+ was probably never expected

[honest kernel]

^

[sly remnant]

sure but if you build it they will come

[honest kernel]

Heck, I don't know how I pushed Zeus shield that high lmao

[daring hedge]

yeah, our standards during blood price were ridiculously lower

it's funny to see how everyone has pushed since then

[proud jay]

it's a sleeper op weapon that's real awkward to use

[sly remnant]

zeus shield is also a big brain weapon

way too smart for me

[proud jay]

i really like it now

[true fable]

yeah 45 chaos shield feels like a low accomplishment lol

so i can see how the standards have risen

[proud jay]

45? try 54

[true fable]

chaos is quite braindead lol

i will

was doing 49 before work

[daring hedge]

it used to be even more at least

[honest kernel]

my 55 heat clear felt low to me

It's like what the hell

[proud jay]

i guess shield in general just needs to find a few damage boons/hammers

[sly remnant]

its a very safe weapon

[honest kernel]

Damage was very much the biggest roadblock

[proud jay]

even zag shield is pretty ridiculous with explosive return + dashing flight

[daring hedge]

zag shield can do work with like, even deadly flourish and dashing flight

or empowering flight with anything

[true fable]

empowering flight is great

[sly remnant]

i'd like to see other weapons get love but like....this channel is obsessed with the 50 heat bar

and the top players are looking at 55

[honest kernel]

Hey, sorry I'm a shield one-trick lol

[true fable]

well

its a bigger number

[sly remnant]

i'm jjust as guilty to be clear

[true fable]

me too baj i just picked a slower shield to love

[sly remnant]

same. i'm a shield one-trick

[true fable]

tbh though chaos just needs thunder flourish and 2-3 more zeus boons

i think its still super good

[proud jay]

asking for 3 zeus boons is quite a lot tbh

[true fable]

just dont know how fast it can go

[proud jay]

the chances are you won't, until like end of elysium

[true fable]

fine i'll just take jolted then

[honest kernel]

3 boons by Elysium is a lot to ask already

[proud jay]

yeah jolted is usually enough lol

[sly remnant]

dont run CF2

if you want boons

[true fable]

jolted + thunder flourish carried 49 heat

[honest kernel]

Any ammount of RI also impacts that

Because no Dark Foresight

[true fable]

just needed to not fall asleep at the wheel during dad fight to win

em4 dad with shield is so eh

cant imagine doing that fight without one

[sly remnant]

CF RI UC AP are all obsessed with making your build trash

[honest kernel]

Which, total, represents up to 17 heat

[sly remnant]

yep

[honest kernel]

More reaslitically, 15

[true fable]

its pretty sucky

[daring hedge]

i made it to superdad twice at like 51 with zag shield but failed because i am not practiced enough with shield lol

[honest kernel]

It's not just you

That fight takes forever

[true fable]

what was your build? arty attack?

[honest kernel]

on Shield

on Non-Beo anyways

[true fable]

theres so many opportunities to make mistakes

[daring hedge]

yeah i definitely felt it for sure

[true fable]

chaos shield took about 30 seconds to whittle first phase

[daring hedge]

it was like, empowering flight, dio special artemis attack

[true fable]

i see

[sly remnant]

meanwhile the pacts that are about making your build good are.....EM and TD....are worth 16 and realistically only 7 (EM4 and TD3) are actually punishing

[daring hedge]

the other was dashing and dread flight which was great for normal encounters but, of course

terrible vs hades

[true fable]

i probably shouldve anviled instead of being a coward

i had sudden rush and pulverizing

[honest kernel]

...

Chaos shield ?

[true fable]

baj i dont believe in pulverizing on chaos

im sorry

i still like it on zeus/zag

[honest kernel]

Understandable

[true fable]

LOL

thank you for being reasonable

[honest kernel]

Still

rolling the Sudden Rush's risky

[true fable]

sir i had to go to work

[sly remnant]

i like sudden rush

a lot

[honest kernel]

same here

[true fable]

sudden rush is quite nice

[sly remnant]

at the end of the day. the pact rewards trash builds taking forever more than it does efficient and damage heavy play

because half of the pact is about making the game longer

and a quarter is about making your build garbage to make the game take longer

[daring hedge]

i mean i did 56 without AP2 and far from a trash build because of the decision to not take AP2

[sly remnant]

absolutely you are impressive as hell tail

[daring hedge]

like i really don't say that to brag at all i pray it doesn't come across that way

i just mean like

you can still do damage heavy and efficient play there

[sly remnant]

oh i agree

[honest kernel]

Just won't be on all aspects

[sly remnant]

thats the point i've been trying to make all weekend

[honest kernel]

If anything, the pact punishes Cast-related builds a ton

[daring hedge]

hugely agree

[honest kernel]

Since they need more, and more specific, boons to get rolling

The trade-off ? Some of the most insane builds

[true fable]

and most casts builds are based on duos

[sly remnant]

i don't even know if its that. i think cast builds are insanely well-designed

the pact is kind of designed with like....4 aspects in mind

and the rest are hung out to dry

[honest kernel]

The pact wasn't designed to be maxed out

Or anything close to it

[true fable]

i dont think AP2 was designed with much in mind

other than suffering

[sly remnant]

oh i agree, but we are doing it.

[true fable]

it says it on the tin

[daring hedge]

casts and their damage are just inherently limited by factors from the start, like how many casts you have with stygian, lodge time in bosses, extra boons to capitalize on the infrequency given the former points, etc.

[true fable]

"thank you for suffering"

[daring hedge]

it's a whole can of worms

[sly remnant]

i agree tail which is why pushing every weapon to the bar is the point i struggle with

[true fable]

well we dont "have" to max it out either way

[sly remnant]

but we are doing it

[true fable]

i did 45 on beowulf

[sly remnant]

and SGG knew we were going to try

[true fable]

im happy with that for right now

i dont think its fair to foist the expectation that 55+ should be reasonable on game devs who didnt expect most people to go above 16

[sly remnant]

45 on beo is a fantastic accomplishment

[daring hedge]

amir actually didn't expect all weapons to be viable at 50+, and mainly seemed to be concerned with 40+ viability with all aspects, which i think is fair to say has been reached quite easily

we just have incredibly high standards

[sly remnant]

well yes

[true fable]

of course, where do you think you are, low heat strategies?

[sly remnant]

i agree 100% with your take tail

[edgy arrow]

wait what

why do i keep making things harder for myself by accident

[sly remnant]

i mean i understand your reaction

[true fable]

wym ohokwy

[edgy arrow]

i thought beo was a pretty good weapon for higher heats

at least before 50

[sly remnant]

its a cast weapon

[true fable]

i think it still is

[sly remnant]

its got its problem

[true fable]

it just doesnt like CF AP or RI

[sly remnant]

i want to be clear. beo is an excellently designed weapon

[true fable]

none of which i took

[daring hedge]

beo struggles with AP pretty hard even compared to other aspects

[sly remnant]

and RI

[daring hedge]

right

[edgy arrow]

oh fair that’s true

[true fable]

so i did everything except those

and TD2

[honest kernel]

That'd be the nature of an all-in aspect

[true fable]

maybe i'll do TD3

[proud jay]

at least beo can potentially make use of attack, special and cast

[true fable]

not sure

unlike spears

[edgy arrow]

RI only really hurts more than other aspects at RI3

[true fable]

[sly remnant]

i think beo has potential up to 53

[edgy arrow]

but fair point about AP ig

[true fable]

RI1 hurts the most imo

if i could take different RI levels independently

[sly remnant]

LOL SAME BRIGHT

[true fable]

id take 2/3 before 1 for beo

[edgy arrow]

RI1 is pain for everything tho

[daring hedge]

hey spears can make use of the special just fine.... granted they specifically get exploding launcher or GY charged skewer

[true fable]

honest

[daring hedge]

easy

[edgy arrow]

that isn’t beo specific

[true fable]

sir

that is a very specific hammer

[sly remnant]

nah there are a lot of aspects that do not give a crap about duos

[daring hedge]

easy

[true fable]

also you need to do an exploding launcher run

[sly remnant]

lol i mean comparatively

[true fable]

i still dont believe in it

[daring hedge]

my 1.0 hades 50 was halfway that

[true fable]

idk how to use

[proud jay]

i did 41 heat RI4 with exploding launcher, back in blood price

[daring hedge]

just took until elysium and i still didn't have a special boon then

[true fable]

just bootleg GY?

[sly remnant]

the fact that you are guaranteed 2 hammers makes some aspects really not care about RI1

[daring hedge]

also i have a 51 from blood price

full exploding launcher run

[dire steppe]

i honestly think there isn’t a bad bow

[sly remnant]

there isn't

[daring hedge]

which was weirdly slow, probably should've taken deadly instead of heartbreak

[sly remnant]

its safe and got damage

rama is probalby the most dangerous

and hardest to master

but has the highest ceiling

[honest kernel]

Rama needs your fundamentals to be on point, it being a somewhat slow, charge weapon with insane damage

Very rewarding tho

[sly remnant]

its also basically a melee weapon

[edgy arrow]

i swear i used to be better at rama when it charged slower

now i keep going for power shots and getting hit

[sly remnant]

i'm very mediocre at rama but i have a blast every time i play it

[edgy arrow]

before i just ignored power shots lol

yeah same

[daring hedge]

hey that's progress

the power shots are worth it

[honest kernel]

^

[edgy arrow]

true

love me big number

[honest kernel]

I will say that they aren't necessary a few times, but the damage's very worth going for

[sly remnant]

lol i'm so bad about going for a power shot i shouldn't go for and getting hit out of it

[dire steppe]

perfect shot is great on rama tbh

[daring hedge]

right, there are many situations with low armor foes or just low health foes where you don't need it

[sly remnant]

because everyone in this channel knows how much i like big numbers

[true fable]

i need to learn rama but kbm makes me mad

hello i would like to special a witch 3 times and fail

[daring hedge]

lol that still happens even with controller with certain enemies

looking at you tartarus pests

[true fable]

i probably dont even need to special witches tbh

just blast them with a min charge shot

[sly remnant]

gotta purge DC

[daring hedge]

depends on if DC is on

yeah

[true fable]

fair yeah

[daring hedge]

if so: always always special

[sly remnant]

tail i always take dc with rama to practice special'ing. is this correct?

[true fable]

ive been trying and failing to make rama go fast

[daring hedge]

yeah, it helps you form a good habit of applying shared suffering and becomes pretty free on rama

[honest kernel]

My main problem when I play with Rama is I like to stand close to enemies. Too used to the BullRush range lol

[true fable]

have trouble picking my spots

[sly remnant]

^same

[true fable]

charg-oh stunned

[sly remnant]

especially when i get triple or point blank.

[daring hedge]

yeah i suppose with rama you have to pick your moment to be close, really

[sly remnant]

I MUST GET CLOSE TO MAXIMIZE DAMAGE

[daring hedge]

with dash spacing and timing

[true fable]

charg-full witch volley to the face

[sly remnant]

its an insanely cool weapon

[honest kernel]

I can thank my reflexes so that I avoid most of these mistakes' consequences

But I shouldn't be making them in the first place

[sly remnant]

one of the most well-designed weapons in the game

[true fable]

my one and only gripe with spear is that the special is the throw and not the spin

[daring hedge]

i really enjoy actually using both the special and the attack in almost equal measure regardless of build

[sly remnant]

lol i have a lot of issues with spear

[true fable]

if spear special were the spin spear would be one of my favorite weapons

[sly remnant]

thats just like...the tip of the spear 🙂

[true fable]

but i imagine that was intentional design

[daring hedge]

hades aspect is basically "what if you could fix spear's horrendous base damage for eight seconds"

[sly remnant]

YEP

EXACTLY

[honest kernel]

Achilles aspect is like "Ohey your special has insane utility and also boosts your damage for a bit"

[true fable]

being able to apply weak with spin then attack with crit

👌

[sly remnant]

i didn't play early access at all

was spear popular?

and thats why it didn't get buffed?

[daring hedge]

spear has been through quite a rollercoaster over early access

[true fable]

i think achilles used to be 2 charges lmfao

[honest kernel]

It did

[daring hedge]

there was a point where it was fairly overpowered

[cedar thistle]

i've been trying to play achillis with artemis spin. It does pretty big crits, but doesn't really scale up to higher heats unless you get good hammers

[honest kernel]

Even I was there for that point in Achilles' life

[true fable]

achilles spin builds

thats a new one

[daring hedge]

lol

[cedar thistle]

gotta get that 4 digit crits

[honest kernel]

Wait y'all don't just roll for Flurry Jab

on Achilles

[sly remnant]

i wish this channel would be more accepting of seed starts on spears

[honest kernel]

Or seeding in general

[proud jay]

seeded = routed

[true fable]

i roll for flurry jab

[daring hedge]

my relationship with flurry jab is complicated because it's amazing and fun but also takes away spin which i have conditioned myself to enjoy and use a lot

[true fable]

or cry and take vicious skewer

[honest kernel]

If I'm going to be honest

[sly remnant]

I KNOW YOU ARE MEME'ING I'M NOT TAKING THE BAIT

[honest kernel]

I like spin on spear

DC ruins it hard time tho

[proud jay]

we did seeded runs back in early access

[twilit orbit]

how do you distinguish between a seeded run and a completely routed run?

[sly remnant]

show a death

[proud jay]

how do you show a death before a seeded run?

[honest kernel]

... That won't do it for seeded vs routed

[true fable]

you cant, but routing is fairly obvious

routing looks something like

[sly remnant]

the only difference between seeded and unseeded is number of resets

which is my issue with it

[twilit orbit]

what if I just happen to throw an extra cast or two in combat for dps

[true fable]

cast twice, avoid all shades in the midshop, roll thrice in the fourth well you find

[twilit orbit]

or avoid throwing casts

[proud jay]

you could have routed up to a certain point without needing to do any visual manipulations

[true fable]

pick up 2 lights of ixion and spin around backwards, do a kickflip

start a new life in the netherlands

[twilit orbit]

btw, what advances rng besides throwing casts?

[proud jay]

summon

[true fable]

oh god thats a can of worms

[honest kernel]

^

[daring hedge]

p o t s

[proud jay]

shades in tartarus chamber 1 and mid-shop

[true fable]

dont shades in midshop count as rng usage

lol

[proud jay]

voice lines

[sly remnant]

routing is super cool to see the resutls of

but my god is it awful to do

[proud jay]

even +3 from cthonic vitality

[twilit orbit]

wait what do you mean shades count as rng

[true fable]

wait really

the shades

if you walk through them

[twilit orbit]

oh lol

[proud jay]

whenever shades start moving they call the rng function

[twilit orbit]

does that burn a different number of rns depending on how long you stay in the room?

[proud jay]

yes

[sly remnant]

wait does this mean the boon roll and approval process roll are the same RNG seed?

[proud jay]

that's why chamber 1 is wildly inconsistent

[twilit orbit]

im assuming that chthonic vitality burns a fixed number of rns

so you can mostly ignore it for routing

[honest kernel]

Why would it burn any at all tho

[true fable]

thats what im wondering

[honest kernel]

Or why should it burn any

[proud jay]

all number texts regarding health call rng

[twilit orbit]

i mean plenty of games have random actions burn rn numbers for no reason to make things seem more random

[proud jay]

like entering chaos gate

[honest kernel]

Still, why ? Savefile stuff ?

[sly remnant]

to increase variance

games love variance

the less variance the quicker it becomes solved

[proud jay]

in some games like slay the spire, everything is tied to the starting seed

in hades what happens, everything is tied to your current seed, which keeps changing

[honest kernel]

And that's the norm, from what I saw, in most games using starting seeds

Or roguelites in general

[proud jay]

things get programmed in a lot of different ways

[sly remnant]

mmmmm most roguelites don't have the discreet set of options that hades does

[proud jay]

there are some norms but you don't have to stick to them

[honest kernel]

Hades' way of handling it is unusual

To say the 'least

[twilit orbit]

the thing is that if there are only a few actions that burn rns, then its very easy to do rn manipulations
if you have a bunch of random stuff that burn rns, then it becomes much harder to manipulate things

which might be something that the developer desires

[sly remnant]

games like slay the spire and binding of isaac have so many cards/powerups that you only need one seed

hades has a much smaller set

[proud jay]

devs are well aware of routed runs and don't really mind them

speaking of routed runs, be ready for AFK EM4 kill

[honest kernel]

EM4 ?

👀

[proud jay]

EM4.

[daring hedge]

oh no

[north dove]

afk EM4

[proud jay]

tomorrow

[sly remnant]

i almost had an unrouted AFK EM4 kill unseeded

[honest kernel]

Pog

[true fable]

i thought JP was trying

[proud jay]

doing it legit is way too unlikely to happen

i just routed through it

[true fable]

bablo is the trophycam making a return

[sly remnant]

HE ONLLY HAD 50% LEFT ON PHASE 3

[honest kernel]

... Cerberus is to blame, isn't it ?

[sly remnant]

I WAS SO CLOSE

[proud jay]

i already got punished hard enough for it

[sly remnant]

but i never got vengeful mood

[true fable]

LOOL

[twilit orbit]

oh I mean just in general
in some games the devs might have a big incentive to trying to prevent routed runs
hades devs might not care too much but some other games might not want it

[true fable]

sometimes punished

[sly remnant]

i had 6 opportunities at it

missed every time on vengeful mood

[true fable]

mans reach should not exceed his grasp

or something

[sly remnant]

it was being recorded too PepeHands

[twilit orbit]

for example, rng manipulation in runs is fairly common in the GBA fire emblem games, but the method for doing it was fixed in later games in the series

[sly remnant]

in general devs don't like games to be "solved"

which speaking as a dev is dumb and we should get over ourselves

[honest kernel]

I was mostly speaking in the sense of roguelites, where being able to input a seed and do a run with expected outcome is a feature that's, from my experience, more and more common

[proud jay]

there's some magic lost when you "solve" something in a game

like in hades, almost everything is additive, so the few multipliers left just are almost by default optimal for damage

[honest kernel]

And when it comes to the number of rooms, enemies, bosses, it's actually on the lower side as far as numbers go. They are just high enough quality to be worth re-fighting, and the combat system as a whole is pretty solid, so that makes up for it

Pact modifier also comes in clutch for replayability

And then there's the lore

[proud jay]

i kinda like going for consistency since it's far from solved

usually people just reset runs with bad hammers etc

[honest kernel]

^ that actually was my original plan

"What 32 heat pact would be the most consistent"

[proud jay]

yeah

[honest kernel]

That was in like Blood Price that I set that plan

[true fable]

consistency is an admirable thing to aim for

[honest kernel]

Nowadays it'd have to be 40 lol

[true fable]

why i like rta/streaks

[proud jay]

32 has been done

well technically not with gilgamesh now in the game

[true fable]

what do you mean?

[proud jay]

wriste streaked all aspects at 32 heat in early access

[true fable]

ohhh gotcha ok