should i submit a 12:32
#h1-high-heat-strategies
true fable
most people use meg
or try to get lower
i feel like i can get lower since i only got one cast stone with beo
other than getting cucked by master chaos on a high roll i got scintillating feast in tartarus though which was nice
honest kernel
For casual runs, Sisyphus' companion is fine. For high heat runs, Meg's or Achille's
Seems to be the consensus
true fable
my elysium was faster than my tartarus lol
loud coral
Welp time to do 40 heat rail, should I still take Zeus first or should I just go Athena
The n00b in me says Athena but Zeus is probably worth not having DDash until Asphodel
alpine wave
eris is hard ;-; i keep running out of bullets and missing my special
true fable
i think zeus first
just pray you get ddash before instead of at witches in asphodel
40 rail was pretty free with that setup for me
everything after heroes was a long exhale
north dove
yeah
north dove
yep
rare forge
wow nicely done!
but yeah, i also would not have thought cursed slash works through LC4 - thats neat
true fable
heroic divine dash 
north dove
everytime you get rare crop
loud coral
Wdym I always pom DDash and take ambrosia delight just for it
It's the best attack in the game after all
true fable
rare crop 99% of the time picks the most useless BS
but we only remember the 1% of the time it picks our favorite boon
the real high roll
ember cobalt
The only time I remember taking it, it decided to upgrade my dash boon
loud coral
Unless you have a really dedicated run just take the refreshing nectar
true fable
bablo put it really well and converted me to pom porridge gang
pom porridge is literally 4 room reward
s
99% of the time best option
the other 1% of the time you're high rolling for a duo
ember cobalt
I only ever really take the one that increases the rarity of the next few boons you find
loud coral
Wait, does the sword's multi-hit dash-strike hammer heal twice with Cursed Slash?
true fable
dash strikes dont heal with cursed slash iirc
loud coral
Damn
loud coral
Like 60% of my attacks are dash-strikes if I'm running Arthur or Poseidon
loud coral
I think I managed to beat 32 heat with a super good backstab arthur run actually
lemme find it
Don't ask me why I ran DC1 and TD1, I was dumb
true fable
why parting shot?
honest kernel
You get extra backstab damage
true fable
you dont i tested it recently
true fable
the +35% only applies to your cast's backstab damage
not to your cast frontstab or to other backstab damage
honest kernel
As if the wording wasn't confusing enough
heady olive
feels like that boon is bad
true fable
i think the confusion was because with parting shot and athena cast on hera bow
honest kernel
It's insane for cast builds
heady olive
oh
heady olive
u mean other casts can backstab too?
honest kernel
It also includes Exposed and the mirror backstab damage
true fable
yeah
honest kernel
And whatever Chaos gives you
heady olive
dont u hv to be behind the enemies tho
heady olive
hmm
twilit orbit
@honest kernel I beat 32 heat with zeus shield first try!
honest kernel
Noice
twilit orbit
nothing super special, I had epic thunder flourish and common zeus call
and mostly just spammed special and call
honest kernel
That's legit how most of my high heat runs went lmao
Just get Zeus special and get whatever damage from core boons you can get
twilit orbit
im surprised at how fast zeus shield builds god gauge
true fable
hey that works
twilit orbit
its really, really fast
true fable
call builds off consecutive hits
honest kernel
Yup
true fable
same reason why super soaker is nuts for god gauge
honest kernel
Bonus points for Artemis' support fire
... Honestly
Artemis attack, Zeus special
twilit orbit
I tried to find support fire but it never showed
honest kernel
Focus on getting her gauge stuff on crits
twilit orbit
I had pp, artemis attack, and hunters mark
I think I rolled once or twice for support fire but it was never offered
true fable
i really really did not expect zeus attack fists to be this dang good
what dash do people put on this
i guess athena for high heat
honest kernel
Athena or Poseidon
twilit orbit
i feel like every time I dont have athena dash on fists I just die
honest kernel
You'd think Poseidon dash would be bad, but it actually works out ok
twilit orbit
unless its really low heat
honest kernel
And the damage you get for bosses is great
Altho the optimal strat is still Merciful End for fists
honest kernel
Could always go athena for a safe bet
Or Aphrodite
... that opens up Smoldering air
loud coral
When I was bad (like wasn't able to get past Th*seus bad), I used Tidal Dash all the time
Was actually super good, I'd take it more but eh
true fable
you mean you don't like h u g e c a t c h
twilit orbit
I think my personal tier list is...
athena, artemis, aphrodite, zeus
ares, dionysus
demeter, poseidon
everything in the first row I actively like
and the other two rows are more stuff that I take when they're available to try and support my existing build
with the bottom row being worse than the middle
thinking about it more maybe demeter is worse than poseidon
loud coral
But how could you resist M I S T R A L D A S H
twilit orbit
how can I take mistral dash when I always have divine dash by asphodel
true fable
i was gonna say mistral dash isnt the worst dash in the game
but i couldnt think of another
maybe drunken dash?
probably drunken dash
loud coral
Drunken Dash
twilit orbit
drunken dash is there only to apply PS
which mistral dash can also do
the more important thing about drunken dash is that it locks you out of dio call
which is one of the best calls
loud coral
At least Blade Dash can be good for defense and Vicious Cycle
Wait what?
Oh that's garbage
twilit orbit
newer hangover stacks will overwrite old ones
twilit orbit
it just makes it really bad
true fable
actively
twilit orbit
since your 15 damage dio call stacks will get overridden by like 1 damage drunken dash stacks
okay I checked the wiki and it actually does 2 damage
still, taking drunken dash basically screws over your dio call if you have it
true fable
well the general rule of thumb if you're running a hangover build is only have one hangover source anyway
twilit orbit
i kind of hate blade dash too tbh
loud coral
I had one good blade dash run, and that was only because I had 3 legendaries
Even then a more dedicated run would be miles better
north dove
I love blade dash a lot but I'm definitely an outlier
loud coral
Kinda weird how Athena's dash is amazing for offensive builds but Blade Dash only works for defense
You'd think it'd be the opposite knowing the gods
ripe crane
Athena's dash is also amazing for defensive builds to be fair 😛
loud coral
Athena's dash is also amazing for defensive builds to be fair 😛
north dove
My dash tier list is Poseidon = Athena > Ares > Zeus > Aphrodite > Demeter > Dionysus
And Artemis is in a seperate category
honest kernel
I have Aphrodite a bit higher than that, and Ares below Aphrodite that is about as equal as Zeus.
loud coral
Artemis' Dash is like a Chaos boon but the curse is using up a dash slot
daring hedge
i'd say poseidon versus athena depends heavily on context, like if high heat or low heat speedrunning is the context, etc.
ripe crane
I have no idea, I don't take dashes because I want to leave it open for Athena. I don't even remember what it's like to use something else
twilit orbit
yeah I almost always just force athena dash
honest kernel
Demeter and Dio also help you proc Priviledge Status, which Are's doesn't, and Zeus' needs Jolted
twilit orbit
unless I'm playing on low heat then I take whatever
loud coral
Blade Dash is good imo, but there are just better options
Passion Dash seems like it was meant for rushdown builds but we already got Athena soo
twilit orbit
i have noticed that i take way more damage when I dont have athena dash on melee aspects though
honest kernel
Passion Dash does inflict weak from the get-go, and enables different duos, on top of decent damage
twilit orbit
im sort of used to dash attacks being safe with athena, so when I dont have her dash I press attack when I shouldnt and die
honest kernel
But Athena dash' utility and Poseidon dash's damage are hard to beat
cinder cave
is it weird that charged skewer is my last hammer for prophecy?
I just spammed spear to start with and got bored with spear entirely
just been sitting there unpicked for the last 50 runs xD
honest kernel
I'd argue it's less boring, because it makes special spam somewhat worth doing, as otherwise the damage is peanuts
But yeah, I can see it
honest kernel
Oof
twilit orbit
i find charged skewer super awkward to use unless you have exploding launcher or are using guan yu
true fable
one nice thing is that zeus' dash opens up double strike
twilit orbit
the default spear throw is just... not good
true fable
charged skewer is ideal on GY yes
twilit orbit
charged skewer is great on GY
cinder cave
just because of base damage
twilit orbit
i dont think its very good on other aspects unless you have exploding launcher
true fable
exploding launcher and charged skewer are exclusive right
twilit orbit
it does good damage but the default spear throw is so awkward to use that its hard to take full advantage of charged skewer
true fable
can you get both?
twilit orbit
im pretty sure you can have both?
loud coral
I think so, would be weird if you couldn't
cinder cave
Charged Skewer only conflicts with Achilles
according to wiki
Exploding Launcher can't be taken on GY
or Achilles for that matter
nor combined with Chain Skewer or Vicious Skewer
slow viper
Ppl have been talking about using companions on hades
but he doesnt allow me to
does it need EM 4?
twilit orbit
it unlocks when you hit max hearts on hades
true fable
be kinda awks if you could get exploding on achilles
slow viper
oh, I see
max hearts on hades
he never lets me give him nectar, I guess I have to do some more runs
cinder cave
be kinda awks if you could get exploding on achilles
@true fable so true actually
honest kernel
It would just teleport you to that area instantly
Would make quite the explosive intro
north dove
51 heat zag sword is up in #self-promotion
twilit orbit
what advantage does zag sword have over something like nemesis?
loud coral
Speed
twilit orbit
or did you just do zag sword because you wanted the heat record for that weapon?
loud coral
Because Funny™️
twilit orbit
I mean realistic advantage
dire steppe
WTF 51 heat zag sword
twilit orbit
like how eris is basically just better zag gun, even though zag gun technically has a bigger clip
north dove
Nah Zag sword is just bad, I wanted to get the record on it
twilit orbit
fair enough
honest kernel
That's what happens when the sword's full combo is just not worth it over spamming dash attacks and specials
honest kernel
Also I love how you are basically playing Zag sword like Nemesis, but without the damage bonus lmao
north dove
funnily enough, the best attempt I had before this one was a +30% swift strike and cruel thrust build haha
twilit orbit
but I hate the thrust at the end of the sword combo because it feels kind of laggy and also pushes the enemy away to canada
sly hound
@mossy zinc hmm... No ? I did not ? And thanks c:
honest kernel
Watching @north dove's video of his 51 heat clear, Seing a common, level 1 Poseidon call match the DPS of Zag sword is sad
twilit orbit
ive slowly gained a greater appreciation for calls that dont block your actions
stuff like poseidon and ares calls are cool because of the invulnerability but not being able to use your attack during them is actually a real downside
twilit orbit
the only bad thing about athena call is that it doesnt help me make TD lol
other than that its great
honest kernel
I'd argue it more than helps
Since you can go full aggro and use lesser calls when needed
Or just wait for that one big call that lasts forever and go ham
Not having to dodge out of the way of stuff is REALLY good for DPS
twilit orbit
but i play like a dummy and already dont dodge out of the way of stuff :^)
honest kernel
Not to mention it deflects stuff too, if I recall, so that's even more damage
honest kernel
It's not easy to see tbh
twilit orbit
except on charon, for some reason the deflect numbers on his attacks are super obvious
twilit orbit
deflecting charon's swipe definitely does damage
but I havent seen it do damage to other enemies
though its not something that I pay really hard attention to
honest kernel
Ok if it works on Charon, it should be fine on other enemies
But the hic : It's damage, but it's actually not that much unless you have like Brilliant Riposte
honest kernel
Charon slaps hard
twilit orbit
thats the only reason that I know it does damage
honest kernel
That's why
twilit orbit
because the big 400 pops up every time
honest kernel
Deflect damage's based on what you deflect
And Charon is like one of the biggest damage dealers
Outside of Hades, or Theseus' bombs
@north dove ... I see that +3 hermes dash on AP2 👀
unreal pasture
@north dove You probably know ... but can Zag sword do the same thing arthur sword can to get the thrust... that is swing, swing, dash, swing?
That weapon is definitely atrocious though
north dove
Yeah it can
unreal pasture
Every time I play it like... I wind up asking "Why did I do this...?"
twilit orbit
okay I just checked and deflected melee attacks do damage
I guess I just never realized it before
honest kernel
Unless it's on bosses, chances are you won't notice yeah
twilit orbit
I watched one of tailesque's clears and he deflected a spear poke from hades for 202 damage
seems like a fairly low number but still non-negligible damage
north dove
You know what could totally fix zag sword? Remove the attack and movement speed bonuses and just give it a passive +1 dash
I'd probably take it over nemesis then in some cases
twilit orbit
or if they made the attack combo better
unreal pasture
Its damage is so bad though
honest kernel
The problem with that : It would also need some form of passive that can be boosted by Titan Blood
twilit orbit
maybe make it like arthur, where the swing damage scales up more significantly the more you swing it
and change the thrust to something that is better lol
north dove
right I forgot about titan blood, hmmm
twilit orbit
+1/2/3/4/5 dashes :^)
honest kernel
Imagine if that was Gilgamesh lmao
Maim remains constant, but just gets a ton of dashes for the levels
alpine wave
btw, eris -> artemis special or zues special?
ive heard someone saw artemis but if im doing zues everything else
then shouldn't i take zues special too?
twilit orbit
rail special has a lot of base damage
so you ideally want something that gives a big percentage scaling imo
also taking someone other than zeus on your special opens up duo boons
for example, you can take aphrodite special to open up smoldering air
alpine wave
o i c
ripe crane
High heat strat: just get athena call/extra dashes/dodge and you can beat any heat
true fable
the pwoer of god's pride
twilit orbit
High heat strat: just get athena call/extra dashes/dodge and you can beat any heat
@ripe crane brb beating 64 heat with that strategy
true fable
how are you going to do that without god's pride
ripe crane
But are you silly enough?
ripe crane
Hold up Retrash got 51 on Zag sword? That's wild. And I felt good about getting 51 on [not the worst weapon in the game]
BUT I will be proud of this anyway 8) . Hey @north dove , is posting in Self-promotion and tagging krasher working for you?
north dove
What do you mean by working?
ripe crane
Oh uh, is he adding the things you post there? Just wasn't sure if he ever actually saw them
north dove
He added the 41 zag sword I did a while ago but I think he's just busy maybe
ripe crane
Gotcha
north dove
Tailesque's 56 is not on the list yet so I assume so
twilit orbit
looks like the sheet also says that wriste has edit permissions as well, so maybe try him?
or maybe if they're too busy they could add a third trusted community member as an editor of the sheet
ripe crane
I was thinking that, more people seem to be getting into high heat things. Wriste is also very busy right now and I'm certainly not going to pester either of them
twilit orbit
they should just add tailesque as an editor so that when he inevitably beats his heat record again he can just add it to the sheet himself :^)
twilit orbit
by doing 52 heat, right???
honest kernel
ripe crane
Honestly I don't feel like I could go any higher with fists or hestia aside from adding the one from PL. The runs I have felt like near perfect builds, I don't think I'd want to grind for anything better
unreal pasture
@north dove Wait, do Cursed Slashes work in LC4? Or were you just forced onto that hammer?
honest kernel
Cursed Slash works in LC4
unreal pasture
I see
north dove
also AP2 means hammers are completely out of my control
and I really wasn't happy seeing that cursed slash haha
ripe crane
Whoa for real? That actually doesn't sound half bad
Actually it does but maybe not as bad as I thought
honest kernel
With the amount of health he had in his run, it actually seemed fine
twilit orbit
the big issue with cursed slash that I can see is that if you dont have really big hp then hades will literally just kill you in one hit
north dove
yeah it didn't matter in the end but cursed slash still gives me ptsd from the poseidon runs it ruined
unreal pasture
Yea, I did see AP2 ... so it's technically both 😂
If you're good at spacing out Hade's stuff ... Cursed Slash is good since you might get above the break point of him taking your death defiance? I dunno
unreal pasture
Yea... 40 slashes to undo one hades hit, basically... but I think you kind of do that
north dove
100 damage spear throws are scary
north dove
and getting 1-shot by pots is not fun
twilit orbit
to heal one hades hit
unreal pasture
Oh, yeah, that sucks
ripe crane
Actually, I wonder if we just submit these to speedrun.com and someone there verifies them, wriste/krasher will just add them as they've already been verified?
I'm going to do that to alleviate some of their burden
mossy zinc
@north dove congratulations! 
north dove
Thanks 
mossy zinc
How much work did Cursed Slash do?
north dove
It did okay in Elysium, prevented me from losing SD a few times
daring hedge
i'm slow to keep up today but grats @north dove and @ripe crane on those 51s!
ripe crane
Thanks 😄
mossy zinc
@daring hedge congratulations!
ripe crane
"boonless" with flayed soul smh
daring hedge
chaos quit aiding my combat prowess with more gold and more health
oh what was the previous boonless record?
frail crane
Hmm
flayed soul is sketchy
but I'll accept it :P
my highest actual clear was 16, I've made it to the Heroes on 32
daring hedge
think of it this way: with the health subtracted i would have made it still 
frail crane
true
mossy zinc
Shackle, though. When we started this challenge, Shackle still did Trap damage lol.
ripe crane
How do you even do boonless? Can you not pick any up at all through the run and just have to reset if you get forced into one?
daring hedge
pretty much sell, yeah
frail crane
you did avoid using them, right? :P
daring hedge
and every time i got one that affected something, i abstained from using that ability entirely until i could sell
so even when i wanted to use boiling blood at one point, i had electric shot and couldn't
ripe crane
That looks doable with Hestia
frail crane
I just picked up Bastion/Pyre/Transistor, so what time I've got I haven't been using for Hades xD
daring hedge
putting heat into AP2 to reach 40 was both convenient because boons don't matter, and also inconvenient because i had to pretty much roll each time an attack boon was offered lol
true fable
boonless with sword woudl be tough
mossy zinc
Rolls don't sound inconvenient for you.
true fable
feel like youd get rocked with hamemrs
mossy zinc
You're practically made to roll.
ripe crane
Why not play with RI2 tho
mossy zinc
It's what you do. It's what you live for.
daring hedge
more centaur hearts basically
mossy zinc
Next time, get both the boonless and the mirrorless record in one go.
daring hedge
i also did get lucky in that both of my hammers were special-based, and i didn't use my special pretty much at all
ripe crane
That doesn't sound lucky
daring hedge
for the sake of relying on boons as little as possible i mean
true fable
literally just playing pure spear
mossy zinc
Hammers are fine.
daring hedge
ah ok'
twilit orbit
im just here watching tailesque flex on everyone by saying that he doesnt even need boons or hammers to beat 40 heat
frail crane
ye
true fable
tailesque you should save that image for when the racers for HC3 ask you for hades aspect builds
daring hedge
extra credit then
mossy zinc
Originally, it was just "no core boons" lol.
frail crane
and then I was like "that's too easy"
ripe crane
Is there an official chaos rule?
frail crane
for my runs, don't use them
mossy zinc
Dissing my original #1 no-core-boons run like that. 
daring hedge
that was another i was unsure of, and mostly took to avoid boon rooms
ripe crane
Seems like a no
frail crane
Nyaanyaa, you say that as though you were the one to do this first
daring hedge
luckily none of them affected my combat power at all
ripe crane
This seems like a fated authority scenario
daring hedge
the hades fight took 8 and a half minutes
mossy zinc
honest kernel
Faster than I expected
honest kernel
oh no
twilit orbit
do it with zag sword
mossy zinc
I wonder if Zag spear isn't weaker than Zag sword.
daring hedge
i've been wondering the same recently, too
mossy zinc
I guess you can get Exploding Launcher.
daring hedge
permanent almost-ignited-ichor is actually kinda nice
frail crane
june 5th @mossy zinc
north dove
Seems legit yeah
daring hedge
yeah exactly
zag sword is the best sword, and repulse shot is an S-tier rama hammer
these are the high heat strats
north dove
Time to get 52 heat with Zag rail to show it's superior to Eris
ripe crane
Probably doable if you start spread shot tbh
twilit orbit
cursed slash is a good hammer for zag sword because it cleared 51 heat
north dove
🤔
ripe crane
I tried it for maybe an hour and got tired of rerolling for it after every death
I'd like to try again but it would be seeded
Just for the hammer part
mossy zinc
@frail crane #h1-builds-and-combat message
frail crane
ah, right
I had the idea, but had to get off before I could finish it
the curse of time zones
mossy zinc
Yep.
frail crane
fair 'nuf
mossy zinc
m the OG.
twilit orbit
wait now that I think about it, does zag sword clearing 51 heat mean that technically all aspects are good enough at high heat if you're a good player?
because clearly the general consensus is that zag sword is one of the worst aspects, so if it can do 50+ heat then surely all aspects can
daring hedge
yeah, i've been of the opinion that anything can clear 50 given time and skill for a while now
retrash's zag run today definitely proved that to be true
ripe crane
I know I just assumed TD3 was required for 50 heat and that held a lot of things back, but actually you can just... turn it off,
daring hedge
same lol
though i'm... still not a fan of AP2, really
it's cool when you can get lucky with it, but i don't like butting my head against that until it happens
ripe crane
Same. I like high heat but AP2 is genuinely not fun. I don't intend to attempt anything else with that
mossy zinc
Well, at least @daring hedge's boonless WR shows that the boons you get don't matter all that much at 40.
So, AP2 away.
"I got bad boons" is no longer an excuse for anything below 41.
But you might get away with "I lost because I didn't get max HP from Master Chaos."
daring hedge
and affluence to buy the diamond in styx because you shouldn't bother with any of the boons or poms in that same shop
very important stuff
twilit orbit
gotta get that bling
ripe crane
Idk, what if the person actually gets bad boons? "I got Demeter cast" seems legit to me.
twilit orbit
"AP2 forced me to pick poseidon attack"
daring hedge
the start of my run literally had tempest strike twice in a row until i got flood shot
had to spend 3 starting rolls
ripe crane
I made one boonless attempt after you posted that. I made it to Asphodel and got a Hermes dodge, so I had to watch Zag the whole time to make sure he didn't dodge. Eventually I got Poseidon dash so I could also no longer dash. Then I got stuck in a group of jars or something and couldn't dash out so I just died
daring hedge
i'm so glad we have a scenario in which jars are a run ender
twilit orbit
i guess its important to save rerolls for stuff like that
mossy zinc
lmao
waxen relic
btw i just watched the 51 Zag sword and saw that after Hades leaves a spear out due to phase change he can and will rush towards that one if you deflect the one just thrown.
That a feature?
mossy zinc
Nope.
daring hedge
seems like a bug; i've had the duplicate spear thing happen too
mossy zinc
Good thing he doesn't pick up both and just dual-wields.
edgy arrow
do it
formal gust
My best is 32, I want to do like 40+
edgy arrow
there is a noticeable lack of swords at 40+
twilit orbit
just copy retrash's zag sword run :^)
edgy arrow
you are the chosen one
twilit orbit
minus the part where he takes cursed slash
edgy arrow
ideally, do not copy retrash’s run lol
mossy zinc
The best Nemesis main we had at high heat submitted a couple stitched videos for no reason and then just disappeared when we noticed and pointed it out.
edgy arrow
AP2 meant his build was a bunch of garbage
formal gust
Cursed trash
edgy arrow
^^^
mossy zinc
Don't think anyone's done anything with Nemesis since.
Cursed Slash is the best sword hammer.
formal gust
What was that guy’s highest heat
mossy zinc
Zag Sword is best sword.
edgy arrow
zag sword is objectively best sword
chaos is best shield
hestia and eris are equally good
the data don’t lie
waxen relic
Zag Shield Best shield
edgy arrow
cough beowulf cough
twilit orbit
wait so is the current heat record for each weapon
zag sword, hades, chaos, rama, demeter, eris/hestia
?
edgy arrow
yup
formal gust
I will be the pog sword main
mossy zinc
Well, they only submitted 53 stitched and 48 stitched with Nemesis as far as I can see lol. But they had a legit 46 WR with Zag Shield.
formal gust
Damn
I may just do seeded to guarantee a double edge at first
And then try without
edgy arrow
you gotta be pretty good to even do stitched 53 on nem i imagine
mossy zinc
Hmmm.
edgy arrow
although retrash has upped the bar now
mossy zinc
I think you're better off practicing unseeded if you want to do unseeded.
formal gust
What is heat
edgy arrow
use all happy skull
twilit orbit
speedruns all do unseeded now though
formal gust
Yes
edgy arrow
i don’t think there are any nem speedruns without double edge tho
mossy zinc
Gonna do 40 first or 32 bow?
formal gust
I may grind nemesis seeded though, because resetting for double edge has been pissing me off
I got a 9:14 no double edge recently
edgy arrow
i stand corrected
mossy zinc
Sounds good enough for 40 Heat if you can do that.
edgy arrow
lol i need to stop guessing about speedrunning meta
mossy zinc
Confidence.
edgy arrow
i have literally no idea what y’all do
mossy zinc
I know Duckterror back then just used Divine Strike at 40+. Try that, maybe.
twilit orbit
my favorite sword hammer is BIG CHOP
even though everyone always says its bad
its just so fun to use
edgy arrow
it’s cute
formal gust
When I first got nemesis I thought world splitter was the best thing ever
edgy arrow
but bad
mossy zinc
Well, bablo did 45 legit with Deadly Strike, though. But he had a Double Edge seed.
edgy arrow
there’d be so many more record holders if we didn’t count bablo
formal gust
He has world record runs with like, 22/24 of the aspects atm
mossy zinc
Pff. I did 52 before bablo did 52.
edgy arrow
bablo hasn’t even done 52 in 1.0 iirc
mossy zinc
Me either to be fair lol.
edgy arrow
you’re right; clearly a terrible player
formal gust
Hmm divine strike+dash and deadly reversal seems like the way
mossy zinc
Yeah, that's what I would go for.
Well.
Start with Owl Pendant and get Divine Dash asap, maybe Divine Strike instead if it's Epic.
formal gust
He had a faster any heat time with god damn Arthur aspect than I do with eris
edgy arrow
arthur faster than eris confirmed
formal gust
I mean quite a few things are
Nemesis sword and zag rail are faster with optimal rng
Which is stacking dash strike boons pretty much
mossy zinc
The gap isn't so big. You can get there with practice. Don't tell yourself you can't do something just because bablo did it first.
Especially for high heat, perseverance is probably the most important skill.
formal gust
Oh I intend to focus my efforts almost entirely on nemesis for both speedrunning and high heat
edgy arrow
it’s the most important roguelike skill; being able to die repeatedly and not tear your computer apart with your bare hands
mossy zinc
No more Guan Yu or Achilles?
formal gust
Not now
Guan yu is kinda boring in speedruns and is in practice a less consistent Demeter aspect
mossy zinc
@edgy arrow yeah, but for high heat, it's also dying at 42 and deciding I'll just do 45 instead or whatever.
Or I guess 50+ now that the competition moved up there lol.
edgy arrow
mood
mossy zinc
At least if you want to be competitive.
edgy arrow
whenever i accidentally win i’m forced to up my heat by like 10 just to make sure it never happens again
mossy zinc
It's cool that 32 and 40 Heat meta is so established now that so many people can do it so quickly.
edgy arrow
as in, speedrunning it?
mossy zinc
Quickly meaning in very few tries.
twilit orbit
i dont know whether me doing 32 first try on some of the later aspects I've been learning is because ive gotten better or because I was secretly just trash with the weapons that I thought I was better at
it took my multiple hours of grinding to clear 32 for the first time with chiron
which is usually considered an easy weapon
versus today I played zeus shield three times to get the hang of it, then hopped to 32 and beat it first try
edgy arrow
oh boy i hope that’s not true
i got 32 first try on gilg and lucy
should... should i only be playing those two?
mossy zinc
People have us vets walking them through all the decisions now and just telling them like no this pact combo is awful or this one sounds hard but is actually easy. Also build meta has come very very far, so we can just basically copy-paste build suggestions at this point lol.
Also I guess some weapons are stronger now.
it took my multiple hours of grinding to clear 32 for the first time with chiron
That used to be week(s) for most of us.
twilit orbit
i literally sat down for a single session and didnt stop until like 4am when I had beaten it, lol
edgy arrow
actually i don’t think my gil/lucy runs where first try
twilit orbit
the "one more run" feeling was too tempting
mossy zinc
I dunno, maybe you've figured something out with them that just works, and the other aspects you're still figuring out.
misty hamlet
Sometimes you get the right build
I finally 45’ed all 6 weapons and got Chiron bow my first try
mossy zinc
Congratulations!
misty hamlet
Whereas fists took me three days
Now I’m gonna try for 45 on every aspect
Any advice for guan yu? Because it hates me and I hate it
mossy zinc
@misty hamlet build or gameplay?
loud coral
When in doubt, Charged Skewer
mossy zinc
Well anyway, it's basically Heart Rend or Merciful End you'll want.
Unless you want to do a spin build with Divine Strike, but then you'd want to avoid TD3 probably.
Best hammers are Charged Skewer and Serrated Point; Breaching Skewer if you don't see those two.
And if you don't see any of them, Massive Spin is a good option to get DPS.
Optimal rotation is Special > Dash-Strike x2 > repeat.
heady olive
whats the standard set up for 40 heat?
im at 35 heat now so im hoping its not too big for a jump
heady olive
so im taking HL5 do i reduce that and take stubborn defiance
mossy zinc
Beyond that, hmmmm, CF2 EM2+ MM TD1+.
The rest depend a lot on how comfortable you are with things and your aspect choice etc.
cerulean frigate
May as well get used to FO2 being always on too
heady olive
yea my fo2 has been on since 20ish
mossy zinc
Yeah, FO2 is pretty standard on 40+.
heady olive
let me put the numbers in game
mossy zinc
HL5 would not be my choice for melee at 40, but it's fine for e.g. Chiron.
heady olive
yea im taking chiron
cerulean frigate
You can get away without it on 32 but 40+ you're looking at like, FO2 vs 60% more HL.
Or RI1.
heady olive
oo thanks
cerulean frigate
RI1 just makes your entire run weaker because you lose dark foresight
mossy zinc
Dark Foresight is incredibly strong, so you don't want any points in RI until like 50+.
edgy arrow
absolutely
mossy zinc
Yes.
cerulean frigate
It's better than DD once you have no healing and HL ranks
You're looking at like, no hit mentality vs clean run mentality with wiggle room for mistakes
mossy zinc
LC4 with SD is also easier than putting those 4 points somewhere else.
Touch of Styx is still very affordable even with CF2.
heady olive
hmm oki
mossy zinc
Kiss of Styx really isn't affordable.
heady olive
whats kiss of styx?
cerulean frigate
And touch of Styx buff is way more affordable, yeah. It buffs the heal from SD
Lasts 15 chambers
mossy zinc
Kiss of Styx is replenish a DD.
cerulean frigate
280
heady olive
its 360 yep
edgy arrow
280 with CF2 iirc
heady olive
wat
mossy zinc
Touch of Styx is ~99.
edgy arrow
yeah 'cause its +40% per rank
heady olive
200*1.8=360
heady olive
lol
cerulean frigate
But even without CF 200 gold is a boon you buy for underworld customs.
mossy zinc
Maybe a bit over 100 with CF2? I forgot. Super cheap, anyway. 
heady olive
hmm
cerulean frigate
It's usually 95-99
heady olive
i always get a boon from the normal chambers that i discard
cerulean frigate
With cf2
And honestly it's a good deal. 20% extra healing from SD. That's more value than you get out of 50 obol food heal without any LC ranks
edgy arrow
its 10%
mossy zinc
Once you have a t1 boon from Lady Athena, make sure to lose your SD in the chamber before picking up a boon from her.
So you can get free DDs from her.
Bug turned feature ftw.
mossy zinc
Correct.
cerulean frigate
You can also still get a DD from Chaos with SD if you see them a second time and beyond
mossy zinc
She can give you two.
cerulean frigate
But don't take a roiling curse for it lol.
mossy zinc
Which one is Roiling?
heady olive
that one is not fun
mossy zinc
Oh yeah. You should take that before a Thanatos encounter in Elysium.
Roiling.
With JS3.
edgy arrow
at the least the timer is paused lol
cerulean frigate
By the time you get to the last wave, Than's theme will have put you to sleep
mossy zinc
Who knows.
The last guy we sent out to research how long the encounter would take has never returned.
Legend has it they're still fighting more waves.
cerulean frigate
It's still hilarious to me that roiling % can be higher than 3 ranks of JS
Like, why
mossy zinc
By the time you get to the last wave, Than's theme will have put you to sleep
Thanatos is Hypnos confirmed.
Try not to take a Roiling curse in Tartarus if you have BP2.
Unless you like early run ender chambers.
cerulean frigate
Are you insinuating there's a problem fighting endless waves of speeder double damage witches
mossy zinc
Lol I had an Erebus with a homing Superelite Witch and a couple Flamewheels the other day.
cerulean frigate
Not having any of the breaching hammers for superelites is so painful
heady olive
why do ranged characters have to dodge
gaunt fiber
The problem with bonus DD from Athena is that I don't get hit, so I would lose hp to get it :/
heady olive
esp bow dude in elysium hes dodging more than me
edgy arrow
i face tank like a civilised person
The problem with bonus DD from Athena is that I don't get hit, so I would lose hp to get it :/
@gaunt fiber git gud
the real players can get hit whenever they want
gaunt fiber
Just kidding I'm a dog, seppuku every room my dude
cerulean frigate
Strongbows. 85% running and dashing away from you on melee weapons. 15% awful BP2 combo ending a Chiron run
mossy zinc
Yeah I stepped on a 150-damage urn like a real gamer for 52.
Wouldn't have made it otherwise.
mossy zinc
Worst ranged enemies are those little Dracons.
edgy arrow
dracons
mossy zinc
Or maybe speeder Wavemakers.
edgy arrow
basically ranged enemies are just the worst
they just like, bringin' homing missiles to a fist fight
gaunt fiber
Do you encounter bugged ennemies sometimes ? I got Strongbows not moving, swordguys dabbing in Arthur's special
mossy zinc
No, I don't cheat.
mossy zinc
It's the Underworld, alright.
gaunt fiber
Yeah I was shocked too
gaunt fiber
Theseus sometimes too yup
mossy zinc
When you were shocked.
mossy zinc
Thank you thank you.
gaunt fiber
.
mossy zinc
Specifically, a call or trial from Lord Zeus.
gaunt fiber
And it goes on
gaunt fiber
Yes Nyaanyaa, I got it
mossy zinc
Cool.
gaunt fiber
There, your reward
edgy arrow
nah "cool" would be demeter
gaunt fiber
You.
visual sand
gaunt fiber
High heat jokes
edgy arrow
puns are key to the strategy
cerulean frigate
I've valued true shot less and less lately
gaunt fiber
You did not get enough sleep that's for sure
waxen relic
Right on the Hunter's Mark
mossy zinc
Ooooh. Key like Chthonic Key. I see what you did there.
cerulean frigate
i don't have the foresight to get these puns at 50+ heat
edgy arrow
or key as in keypsake
mossy zinc
Wow.
gaunt fiber
Here comes a new challenger, bringing the competition to a whole new level
mossy zinc
How did you devolve that into SF puns.
"Let's turn up the heat!"—Ken Masters, high heat player
gaunt fiber
That's off off topic
edgy arrow
"Let's turn up the heat!" - Captain Flynt, high heat player
mossy zinc
While you Dash, you have no chance to survive make your time.
Bonus Critical Damage: +50%
—Amir, probably
Rumor has it I will one day not make fun of certain in-game descriptions anymore. Those rumors are wrong.
cerulean frigate
zag aspect sword gives you 15% more move speed and 15% more disappointment with the normal attack combo
it
cerulean frigate
lol
maybe you took cruel thrust? there is massive disappointment synergy there.
edgy arrow
ah, that could've been it
mossy zinc
Zag Sword is better than all of these aspects:
Nemesis
Poseidon
Excalibur
Zag Spear
Achilles
Guan Yu
Zag Shield
Zeus
Zag Bow
Chiron
Hera
Zag Fists
Talos
Demeter
Gilgamesh
Zag Rail
Hestia
Lucifer
Prove me wrong.
I'll take any verified 51+ Heat clears as proof.
gaunt fiber
You did not mention Eris, must be true
edgy arrow
look
i'm angry about this, but i have no counterargument
zag sword is objectively top tier
this is the world we live in
mossy zinc
The Underworld we live in.
Zag Sword does not live in the Underworld, though. Zag Sword already escaped.
At 51.
Hmmm. I think in honor of Retrash's WR clear and the Alecto x Zagreus romance, I shall refer to Zag Sword as the Aspect of Trash.
Or otherwise, Trash Aspect.
bronze viper
Just watched it. Wow, that EM4 fight was poetry.
Well, at least we have our proof of concept that any aspect can do 50 heat
People getting so good while I'm gone ;_; So proud 
gaunt fiber
GY 50, any volunteer ?
mossy zinc
@bronze viper did you see Tailesque did 40 Heat boonless?
Boonless and hammerless, because why not.
Didn't have RI4 on, though, that's obviously for next time.
@gaunt fiber you have the highest Guan Yu clear in 1.0 without the 100% crit chance bug. So you do it.
gaunt fiber
Nah, Retrash does
mossy zinc
Oh right.
gaunt fiber
But I'll try one day for sure
edgy arrow
why are there so many people playing GY and no one playing beo
gaunt fiber
But I'm still really happy about that clear anyway
edgy arrow
i want a high heat beo clear to shamelessly copy
mossy zinc
But we already did 50+ Beowulf before 1.0.
gaunt fiber
You have not tried 40 since Nyaanyaa ?
mossy zinc
I did 1 attempt on my Hell mode save, but I have basically no mirror on that, so I had to take RI3 lol.
gaunt fiber
I wonder if I should grind a hell mode save
edgy arrow
i absolutely refuse to believe no one has a higher beo clear than me in 1.0
unacceptable
gaunt fiber
Since GY is the first hidden aspect, why not
mossy zinc
I don't "grind" it, I just play it whenever I feel like it. It'll get up there eventually.
It's a fun change of pace sometimes.
gaunt fiber
I see
edgy arrow
i wonder how long it would take to unlock beo in hell mode
mossy zinc
I got it well before anywere near fully upgrading the mirror.
edgy arrow
you’ve just gotta get GY, right, and then all the others are possible to unlock?
mossy zinc
Yeah.
mossy zinc
I also just died a lot to get it asap, though.
gaunt fiber
Yeah, on purpose...
mossy zinc
I only actually die on purpose—to make other players not feel so bad.
I wouldn't anyone to feel inferior to me.
misty hamlet
I’m working on 45ing everything right now
Got guan yu earlier with a... unique build lol
So far I’ve done Nemesis, Achilles, GY, Zeus, Chiron, Talos, Lucifer, and Hestia
lofty thorn
hey dudes, trying to get the 32 heat for skelly, I can't seem to find the best heat options, do any of you peeps have it?
misty hamlet
“Best” is tough to say it depends a bit on your weapon, though at 32 you can be pretty flexible.
lofty thorn
chaos shield
misty hamlet
To start I’d say EM3 at least, Middle Management, Tight Deadline 1, Damage Control 2, and then whatever else you’re comfortable with
I almost always run the one for extra enemies, whatever that’s called, and skip calisthenics program
gaunt fiber
Get used to LC
lofty thorn
huh, I usually run olympian favor
gaunt fiber
Wot
lofty thorn
the 40% higher chance to get rare boons
lofty thorn
edgy arrow
rare boons aren’t as required as you might think
lofty thorn
epics?
edgy arrow
common ones actually do just fine
misty hamlet
Generally Dark Foresight is better because it lets you move your build along to more impactful stuff
sly remnant
i'd drop Heightened Security. its 1 heat for a lot of extra damage
edgy arrow
oh yeah i missed that
lofty thorn
same for the epic upgrade?
gaunt fiber
boons my dood
misty hamlet
And yeah, Heightened Security should be worth way more heat, given what it does in Hades and Styx
lofty thorn
I'll keep gods pride
edgy arrow
i suggest giving dark foresight a try at some point
the amount of additional health it gives you alone is pretty crazy
lofty thorn
Oof
lofty thorn
SD?
misty hamlet
I’m still using death defiance and LC3 at 45 heat
lofty thorn
ah, good point
misty hamlet
Because I’m trash at the Hades fight and need to be allowed to die three times during it
edgy arrow
Wobbles is a renegade, doing his own thing
edgy arrow
it seems to be working tho so you can try it if you want
rain sedge
that's a weird setup
misty hamlet
I could start using the stubborn defiance Athena “feature” though
rain sedge
BP2 JS3 HL2 would instakill beginners at some room
rain sedge
as in
lofty thorn
if were to run LC2, what do I add
gaunt fiber
UC ez
lofty thorn
and off damage
misty hamlet
Yeah underworld customs put me off at first but it’s not that bad
rain sedge
LC3 is halfway measure that doesnt help
lofty thorn
understandable
edgy arrow
okay if you really don’t want LC, here’s one i did a while back:
rain sedge
just eat the TD3 it's free
edgy arrow
i recommend taking some TD tho, and dropping the RI
TD3 is not free on chaos with JS lol
misty hamlet
All these acronyms 
edgy arrow
chaos is not fast at all these days
there’s a key to the pact abbreviations in the pins
misty hamlet
I just keep looking at the actual pact list and finding them lol
edgy arrow
ngl these days half the time i forgot what the acronyms even stand for
like, CF
could not tell you off the top of my head
misty hamlet
Cool Friends 😎
edgy arrow
Convenience Fee?
waxen relic
CF - counterfeit
waxen relic
Just imagine your own namens and know tgeir meaning
edgy arrow
true but everyone says CF so i don’t need to look lol
rain sedge
well the problem is the JS3, isn't it
take JS2 and eat the TD3
btw here's the list of "easy" heats IMO
edgy arrow
way easier to pump JS/CP on chaos and than TD
it’s like, the only weapon i’d say that for
i’d basically agree with that list
tho it is worth noting that getting used to BP2 and FO2 early can be pretty useful for anyone planning to go beyond 32
although that’s not most people ofc
rain sedge
yeah as I said there experienced players can look for different heats
but FO2 and BP2 are not easy for beginners
edgy arrow
agreed
misty hamlet
FO2 made me much better at the game when I finally bit the bullet
rain sedge
I mean on some weapons FO2 is "free"
edgy arrow
lol
misty hamlet
But FO2+BP2 puts you up against some real BS sometimes
rain sedge
but on things like fist or spear it's really not
edgy arrow
FO2 is never free
edgy arrow
i mean, with all those quotes i guess i’ll accept it
misty hamlet
Getting a mostly empty room with fast homing witches for your second room in Tartarus 
gaunt fiber
personal pleasure