Just don't take it if you don't like it lol.
#h1-high-heat-strategies
mossy zinc
trim sigil
Not to say it shouldn't exist, but it could definitely approach things differently
sly remnant
maaayyyybe AP1 is okay but AP2 straight up removes a core game mechanic
bronze viper
@sly remnant You're not going to make any headway with this when she pulls out the "Just don't take it" line.
sly remnant
there is a difference between being fun
wanton plover
i would like a HL10 pls
rocky mauve
It would be a bit nicer if it only affected boon pickups so you don't get screwed with UC
sly remnant
and compromising your entire design
mossy zinc
I mean, changing it in some way makes some sense if you don't like how it works now.
Removing it doesn't add anything for you and takes away from people who like it. What's the point?
trim sigil
UC isn't affected by AP2 tho?
It would be a bit nicer if it only affected boon pickups so you don't get screwed with UC
sly remnant
100% agree with that
rocky mauve
I don't think there are people who like it
wanton plover
kekw
sly remnant
that doesn't change the fact that its existence is game incompatible
mossy zinc
There are quite a few people who like AP2 lol. I'm one of them.
bright raptor
AP2 is pretty fun on low heat
rocky mauve
UC isn't affected by AP2 tho?
Isn't it? I don't remember
mossy zinc
Game incompatible? lol
bright raptor
And they don't balance around high heat
mossy zinc
I think you're projecting your own ideas of what the game should be onto the devs.
mossy zinc
I mean, that's in no way an objective fact lol.
sly remnant
then why have the 3 choices
rocky mauve
Tbh i do think it compromises the player's building skill
mossy zinc
You can have 1–3 choices depending on your choices at the pact screen lol.
LC4 removes healing. Why have healing items?
That's the same logic you're applying here. It doesn't really make any sense.
sly remnant
i mean i don't like LC4 either but it doesn't atleast straight up remove a core mechanic
healing is a mechanic
it is not a core one
mossy zinc
Oh god.
rocky mauve
Define core
mossy zinc
It's whatever they want core to be, clearly.
rocky mauve
Healing 
rocky mauve
Could apply the same logic to most pacts
hollow lynx
if you remove choice, what happens
rocky mauve
Might as well make the base game heat 50, nothing changes
mossy zinc
AP0 or AP2 without any other pacts is still free. Game hardly changes lol.
hollow lynx
players still get boons and hammers
mossy zinc
@hollow lynx game becomes unplayable.
hollow lynx
it's essentially the same game
sly remnant
no its not
you now have to balance choices and builds
completely differently as a team
i'm talking from a dev perspective
most boons would need a complete rework
rocky mauve
It makes the game harder which is the whole concept of heat
mossy zinc
Why would they need a rework?
sly remnant
its not just about difficulty
mossy zinc
I mean.
hollow lynx
it's already in the game though
sly remnant
you are talking from the perspective of a good player
hollow lynx
and none of it has been reworked
mossy zinc
AP0, AP2, boonless, if you don't add a ton of other pacts, the game is still free either way.
sly remnant
the game looks very different for newer and casual players
bronze viper
AP2 does not make the game harder. It makes the game less consistent. The ability to seed with AP2 diminishes the vast majority of its difficulty, and that play pattern was absolutely not "designed"
mossy zinc
This is high-heat strategies.
sly remnant
right but i said i didn't like its existence
rocky mauve
Then don't select it
mossy zinc
You could put a sticky note over it on the pact selection screen.
bronze viper
The argument I have typically made against AP2 is that its difficulty cannot be measured accurately in Heat. It could be it's own mode, but it doesn't make sense to use the same metric.
mossy zinc
Or use a black marker. I don't really know what to tell you lol.
wanton plover
kekw
maiden geode
interesting argument being made here
sly remnant
even AP1 is mroe applicable to the game
AP2 is a different game. a very different one
maiden geode
seeding more or less buys you 7 heat it seems
trim sigil
Now I only get to imagine a pact that doesn't allow you to pick a weapon, so you either have to go with whatever it gave you or you restart innumerable amount of times to get your favorite
That's very roughly what AP is
bronze viper
JUST DON'T PICK IT
mossy zinc
Random aspect would be fun.
maiden geode
it is cruel reality that only the highest of highs get recognition
someone's gonna high roll a RIX AP2 run and come off as godlike
sly remnant
so seeding for free heat inherently compromises the integrity of the competition
mossy zinc
Seed + AP2 is far from free lol.
bronze viper
At least the current unseeded meta completely invalidates AP2 as an option. So there is some justice.
mossy zinc
It will just go into the seeded category, anyway.
rocky mauve
That's the category's problem
sly remnant
if one of your difficulty modifiers is basically unplayable except in a small subset
bronze viper
Because you need to kill yourself 50 times to get what you want before you can even start, then restart a dozen times before you can even finish.
sly remnant
sure but thats a strategy decision...as opposed to...i hope i get what i want
mossy zinc
AP2 only becomes a real issue at like 45+ maybe.
trim sigil
TD3 has at least some player agency
rocky mauve
Why is picking pacts around TD3 strategy but not picking AP2 is not?
bronze viper
It's not pacts. it's playstyle. You elect to skip rooms, take Chaos gates you'd prefer not to, etc.
maiden geode
because you can play a one in a million run where AP2 will cooperate, is what they're thinking
and that'll be a record no one can overcome by learning the game
mossy zinc
AP2 at high heat affects like maybe 10~15 players. That's hardly unplayable for 99.9% of players.
bronze viper
Isn't that DEFINITIONALLY unplayable for 99.9% of players?
mossy zinc
What?
sly remnant
NONE of the other pacts have the ridiculous requirement
you basically can't even consider this
maiden geode
we're going to reach a point where AP2 and getting super lucky will be the only viable source of extra heat and the grinders will get miserable lol
sly remnant
until 45+
mossy zinc
What can't you consider until 45+?
AP2 below high heat is easy. I don't know what to tell you.
bronze viper
The fact that the only condition one would ever take AP2 is if they have exhausted literally every other pact option to make the game harder but they still want to push their heat numbers. A condition set that applies to a low double digit number of players.
sly remnant
^
the pact is so antithetical to the game it is only there to distinguish 10-15 players
mossy zinc
I think you're projecting. People do low heat AP2 for fun lol.
sly remnant
sure
trim sigil
RI4 is second closest to that but unlike AP2 you can and have to put skill in that to get it done, rather than mindless grind for Fates' favor
mossy zinc
You need skill for AP2, too.
sly remnant
no one doubts you need skill for AP2
trim sigil
You don't, if you get boons you want
maiden geode
you need skill for AP2 on average
bronze viper
It takes skill to not quit the game with that much inconsistency and grind, sure.
maiden geode
but the only run that matters is the record-setting one
sly remnant
^
trim sigil
It would take skill to, for example, hold winstreak on AP2
maiden geode
but we don't care for winstreaks as a community, at least not yet
trim sigil
and even then it rather boils down to how long until game shows you the darkest side
mossy zinc
There are so many people in this discussion who don't do anything close to record-setting talking about player experience on heats they've never touched. 
bronze viper
I did quit the game, for 2 months after I did 49 AP2 with the trash version of Rama lol. Not because it was "too hard", but because holy god that sucked.
sly remnant
i'm going to verbally attack your skill because thats how all the best solutions are found
AP2 isn't an issue of mechanics
its an issue of core design
lost otter
AP2 it guano on High heat.the most random part of the contract. i try it. after 2 runs when im from 3 boons 2 times replase dash....
no thanks
maiden geode
I will preemptively answer a possible counter-argument and say that scoring systems are part of the game design
sly remnant
i think there is a reason its the only pact thats talked about this way
maiden geode
this is a scoring mechanic that is inconsistent with the rest
mossy zinc
@lost otter best part of AP2 is you have to figure out "okay, how do I make this work now?"
It gives me new ideas. 
maiden geode
that's not a bad thing in itself
sly remnant
which is why i'm mostly okay with AP1
maiden geode
the problem is that the game's scoring mechanic rewards going high, not playing consistent
rocky mauve
Why not get a bit of heat as you play your random run
bright raptor
AP2 is fine on lower heats, which is what they balance around
random bough
the problem is that the game's scoring mechanic rewards going high, not playing consistent
Thats not a problem at all
maiden geode
AP2 isn't necessarily a bad thing for moment-to-moment gameplay
random bough
Thats how any roguelike works
bright raptor
It's only really bad when you get to very very high heat
lost otter
It gives me new ideas.
@mossy zinc i do it when play random farm runs) hate AP2.its too much about luck and random.
sly remnant
no one thinks AP2 isn't manageable at low heats
thats not the argument
its a fundamentally different game
lost otter
@sly remnant show us your HL5EM4FO2 in 40 total heat with AP2.
sly remnant
look i hate the mechanic
maiden geode
AP2 tests players on a completely different kind of performance metric from the others, and is incompatible with heat as a mark of achievement
lost otter
and after we can realy discussing about how its work on High heat
sly remnant
^thats the best way to sum it up
prinny gets it
oh its fundamentally unplayable on high heat
but thats because its a different game
which is my issue
lost otter
It gives me new ideas.
@mossy zinc Btw you find some think intresting?
bright raptor
I can agree with what prinny said
sly remnant
i think its the most succinct way to sum up my issues with AP2
mossy zinc
@lost otter I like boonless for challenge, so AP2 is kind of there, too.
I can't think of anything specific, but 99% of my Beowulf build knowledge came from AP2 at 52+ lol.
mossy zinc
I would still take Eternal Rose into Tartarus.
Weak is too good and important.
And you get high damage on Attack or Special.
Plus, you can easily get Smoldering Air for DPS + i-frames.
Hmmm. Take Lord Dionysus if you play DC2. Hangover will help a lot with that.
lost otter
Were best choose to put Dio? dash?special?
mossy zinc
Attack.
And Cast.
Attack + Hangover remove DC2, then your Cast goes boom for damage.
lost otter
its realy 0.5 second delay befor cast blow up?
mossy zinc
I dunno the exact timing lol.
lost otter
Hm) i try Smoldering Air. its less usable duo on my list.
mossy zinc
Good luck!
lost otter
ty
mossy zinc
Chiron single-target
The common Dash-Strike > Volley rotation results in 4 Volleys each Hangover duration (4 sec).
assuming common Lv.1
Hangover damage in that time: 200
Heartbreak Flourish: 256
rare
Hangover: 240
Heartbreak: 320~384
epic
Hangover: 280
Heartbreak: 448~512
bronze viper
This seemed random lol
Or were you just testing to see how different they were for yourself
mossy zinc
2 targets Hangover damage
common: 400
rare: 480
epic: 560
3 targets
common: 600
rare: 720
epic: 840
4 targets
common: 800
rare: 960
epic: 1120
I made a clip of Chiron's rotation on Friday to figure that out, but hadn't looked at it yet lol.
lost otter
its with out another boons and duos? @mossy zinc
bronze viper
All of the Hangover numbers should be corrected for -80 damage though, right?
Or +80 rather**
mossy zinc
No, I'm only looking at the damage from Hangover and the damage that Heartbreak Flourish adds.
bronze viper
I see
mossy zinc
Now the question is: Low Tolerance, Curse of Nausea, or Splitting Headache?
lost otter
Its can be compared only from 1 boon vs 1 boon. But in most situations you have some thing to increase dio damage.
bronze viper
That question gets a lot more complicated though, coonsidering hammers and additive sources.
lost otter
becaus almost no way to increase aphro damage. only poms.
bronze viper
Both of the good Chiron hammer are multiplicative sources
That do not affect Hangover in any way
mossy zinc
Heartbreak Flourish was just a base comparison to see if the damage is good at all. Deadly Flourish would probably be better than Heartbreak Flourish.
Both of the good Chiron hammer are multiplicative sources
Yeah, that's true.
bronze viper
The math shouldn't be that different than any other aspect though, they should be about the same. Chiron will be more consistently hitting the crit rate of Deadly Flourish though, which is nice.
mossy zinc
Or you could say it becomes less reliant on Special hammers, which is nice.
bright raptor
In a vacuum for poison damage only Low tolerance is x1.6 (assuming full stacks), Curse of nausea is ~x1.4, Splitting headache is x1.15
lost otter
Dio bad were you dont have another dio boons and Duos. but much stronger if have.
mossy zinc
Chiron always gets full stacks.
bronze viper
It's a soft always since arrows an miss pretty easily, but in a testing environment yes, always.
lost otter
Not full stacks core of dio damage. most damage dio take from artemis and aphro duos and mark.
mossy zinc
It's a hard always for me, okay? Git gud.
Oh wait, you have a higher Chiron clear than me.
I take it back. Please don't shoot arrows at me. 
mossy zinc
I've never been so happy you suck at aiming miss occasionally due to not fault of your own.
bronze viper
Lol, using Chiron volley at point blank range is so wonky
The arrows just have no idea what to do
mossy zinc
Chiron in minichambers in the Satyr tunnels kinda sucks.
bronze viper
Lol, people didn't believe me when I was warning them about DC2 in Blood Price with Chiron. Those baby rats will kill you
mossy zinc
I guess it's between Heartbreak Strike + Drunken Flourish and Deadly Strike + Drunken Flourish + Hunter Dash.
bronze viper
I like Curse of Agony more on Chiron if I'm going that route, since I don't typically go for Power Shots with DCx
mossy zinc
Oh, for DC2 yeah, that makes sense.
I'm looking at getting Chiron speed up without DC. I find Heart Rend on Chiron is slower than failing to get Heart Rend on Zag bow.
Or, well, about the same.
Which is still kinda bad.
Not "bad" bad, but I want something better lol.
bronze viper
Yeah, Chiron is.... not ideal with JSx post nerf
It's kind of a disaster if you don't one shot something
mossy zinc
I'm trying to get my last two weapons sub 12 for now, but it's good research for high heats.
bronze viper
I think Haelian just hit a time record with Zag Charged Volley or something, right?
At least a personal record
mossy zinc
No idea.
bronze viper
(though the special nerf really hurt that build, because unless you are literally inside of an enemy you aren't landing all of the arrows)
mossy zinc
Only Coronacht and Exagryph left for me.
bronze viper
The data is pretty compelling at least for multiple target damage. I'll try Low Tolerance out for JS3 to see if it helps. I doubt it's good enough for TD3 but I could be wrong.
Especially since your boss damage is cut in less than half
Assuming a hammer somewhere
mossy zinc
It's assuming that you actually just keep rotating Dash-Strike > Volley. Drunken Flourish should get better relatively the longer the breaks you have in your rotation.
Oh, and you get Privileged Status easy.
bronze viper
For once
gloomy musk
Last time i checked modding it was still exclusively cheats
@rocky mauve The last time was certainly a long time ago then
Mods are either cheats or QoL, depending on severity
@trim sigil That's a pretty black and white opinion on mods
I invite you to check out the mods for Hades
bronze viper
These posts are from a while ago lol, do you have like a bot trolling for mentions of modding?
gloomy musk
that's from 2 hours ago lol
also I just type "mod" in the search bar and see what's up
bronze viper
I see 😛
bright raptor
For completeness sake, assuming lv 1 common dio special and actually including the base arrow damage: low tolerance is ~1.43, Curse of Nausea is ~1.31, Splitting headache is ~1.15 (a bit less since the crit rate ramps up on the first special)
mossy zinc
Mods are either cheats or QoL, depending on severity
@static plover which are you: a cheat or a QoL?
Another nice thing about Drunken Flourish is that every pom adds 40 damage to your Volley.
Though for single-target over 4 Volleys, that ends up being 10 damage on average.
lost otter
Im probably stop High heat on next week.just casual runs.i need new ideas and some more practice on another weapons.Or just dont play and take rest.
Its my feeling with overkill factor,positioning,avalable.
Most damage Hangover take from(in descending order)
artemis+dio and mark,pp
Aphro+dio
artemis +aphro
old surge
i’m finally getting into heat runs is there a general guide as to which ones to put on vs others
old surge
i’m only on heat level 4
dry flame
also @lost otter ive been doing that build with ares attack on dem fists
its a lot of dmg
and alot of access to duo boons to
u have to get lucky and hope for things like dio call
but its really fun
mossy zinc
I see. Hmm. I'd just try out all of them. There's a prophecy for completing runs with each of them. So you can get that in the process and get some experience with the pacts. The variety is nice, too.
ocean walrus
Tight deadline can be a good one to take if you’re fast enough, since it doesn’t actually make anything more difficult as long as you don’t go over the time limit
So it’s like free heat
bronze viper
The first rank is like, extremely free as well
mossy zinc
TD is "free" if you're good and fast enough.
mossy zinc
LC4 is "free" if you're good enough and don't get hit.
ocean walrus
Since they are just starting out with heat
dry flame
LC4 is good if ur taking a defensive build i think
mossy zinc
What's easy for beginners is very different from what's easy for experienced players.
ocean walrus
Okay but there is a difference between never getting hit and being able to finish a zone in 7 minutes...
dry flame
on something like arthur aspect i wouldnt take LC4
mossy zinc
TD1 is very easy.
ocean walrus
I’m saying that tight deadline doesn’t affect what the enemies do to you
mossy zinc
I wouldn't take LC4 at all as a beginner.
dry flame
LC4 is "free" if you're good enough and don't get hit.
@mossy zinc isnt that what u meant by this tho?
ocean walrus
I’m an experienced player but I wouldn’t take LC4, I can’t play flawlessly
sly remnant
if you are planning on pushing higher heat.....i think its better to learn FO2 early. but you'll lose a lot so make sure its something you want
mossy zinc
Stubborn Defiance circumvents the lack of healing, yeah.
ocean walrus
I think it’s good to take FO1 and get used to it, and then go up to 2
Otherwise it will feel impossibly fast
sly remnant
yea ok fair
ocean walrus
But it’s been a while since I did 32 with anything so maybe my advice is bad now
mossy zinc
There's no real need to take FO until 40+ unless you plan to do 40+ eventually. There are easier options.
sly remnant
^thats why i'm saying "if you are planning on pushing higher heat"
ocean walrus
One tick of benefits package isn’t bad, two ticks can be very challenging
Extreme measures can be fun
It can make the hydra faster to do actually, since the room is smaller
bronze viper
If anything can be gleaned from this conversation, it's that tl;dr pacts are subjective, try them all and see what you like
dry flame
^^^
mossy zinc
I guess a good recommendation when just getting into doing heat is just keep it to 1 or 2 ranks per pact at most.
As a rule of thumb.
Like, don't max out pacts unless it's just on/off.
ocean walrus
I find lasting consequences and hard labor to be very punishing because I can’t trust myself to never get hit
Jury summons makes it a slog
bronze viper
LC is deceptive in that regard, because the combo with SD makes it so you can get hit more
Just not as much during bosses
ocean walrus
I don’t like removing boon choices either
dry flame
^^^
that and RI are my least favorite
nothing worse than seein the boon u need crossed out
ocean walrus
Underworld customs can be fine until you get a run with unusually few boons and have to get rid of something essential
bronze viper
AP1 is more psychological damage than anything, but it's not bad at all to have on
hollow lynx
dark foresight gamers laugh
sly remnant
i agree
ocean walrus
Personally I get the most fun out of getting lots of boons and duos and stuff, do underworld customs makes the game less fun for me
hollow lynx
probably why i should start using foresight
mossy zinc
AP2 without anything else is still easy. The enemies are still weaklings who can't keep up with you.
hollow lynx
i've just been keeping favor on
bronze viper
Lol... don't want to spend the Chthonic Key?
hollow lynx
i should probably stop being lazy and just turn it on lol
ocean walrus
Dark foresight is the one that makes boons more likely to show up?
maiden geode
yep
bronze viper
Gold Laurel rooms (so in-run benefits)
maiden geode
it is gas
bronze viper
20%
hollow lynx
+20%
maiden geode
+20%
ocean walrus
Lol
maiden geode
is pretty big
ocean walrus
Okay I think I have it turned on anyway
bronze viper
I don't know if it makes the differential 20%, so 60-40, or it makes the differential 40% though.
ocean walrus
I maxed out my mirror ages ago and there are some that I’ve had on so long I can’t even remember which
bronze viper
60-40 is still a big deal though tbf, and that's it's worst possible interpretation
ocean walrus
Past Dama decided on things that were better and I didn’t need to think about anymore
So now I don’t think about them 😂
hollow lynx
my worst is when i play ruthless gil and forget to switch again, so i walk into tartarus with a one-dash spear
bronze viper
How can you not notice. Do you just walk in the House of Hades?
lost otter
That feeling when you Athena cast do 3.5k damage from one hit.... and have bouce..
mossy zinc
The strongest part of Dark Foresight is that it's not equal for the different gold laurel rewards because you get to choose.
That's why 1.0 runs have such a silly amount of boons compared to Early Access.
ocean walrus
I’m not sure what you mean
bronze viper
Rooms will be either Gold or Blue laurel offerings only
ocean walrus
That was true late in early access too wasn’t it?
bronze viper
So if you have a Gold room, your choices will be 1-3 Gold laurel choices which could be multiple gods, poms, gold, etc.
mossy zinc
Yes, but Dark Foresight was only +10%.
ocean walrus
Ohhhh no wonder I thought it was only a small %
bronze viper
Pretty sure Foresight just didn't work pre-1.0 lol
I know they fixed some bug with it
mossy zinc
Oh yeah, and that.
bronze viper
(make sure to have FF selected)
Don't listen to the PS apologists
they pick Drunken Dash for their sins
ocean walrus
I prefer privileged status
mossy zinc
No need to check your mirror. I did that earlier, but I'm still as pretty ever. 
ocean walrus
I like to be able to go heavy into just 2-3 gods, I don’t want to have to hunt around for a full set
bronze viper
Especially if you like a mirror that's just set and forget it, FF is probably a million times better than PS
ocean walrus
Why?
bronze viper
Because it's always active
And because the difference of 15% between the two is extremely minor considering.
sly remnant
i only switch to PS when super soaker sounds like a good idea to have fun with
ocean walrus
I just make sure I get two status effects that are easy to apply
bronze viper
And PS incentivizes you to make highly suboptimal boon choices and skill rotation choices to utiliize
ocean walrus
Not really? If I have like chill on attack and deflect on dash w/exposed, those are going to always be up
And that’s what I want anyway
I’m not saying it’s strictly better
Just that I don’t mind going to the trouble of activating it because that tends to be the boons I want anyway
bronze viper
Define always. You have to specifically dash into the enemy to make PS happen, but what if there's a group of enemies? Are you going to make it a point to dash into all of them, every 5 seconds?
mossy zinc
Will you spend rerolls to get Blinding Flash, though?
ocean walrus
Lol the idea of dashing less than every 5 seconds
I’ll get enough Athena that it’ll happen
bronze viper
Dashing inside of an enemy
ocean walrus
I play fists, I have no choice than to be right up in their faces haha
mossy zinc
I think Privileged Status works best in builds that don't require a t2 to apply a curse.
ocean walrus
I’m basically constantly dashing back and forth through them
It’s true that it’s easier to apply, but I don’t have any trouble killing stuff earlier on in runs until I get it
bronze viper
If you get it*
mossy zinc
Yeah, but that changes when you get into very high heats.
ocean walrus
If I don’t get those specifically there are others I still like
bronze viper
I have had a lot of runs where Blinding Flash isn't even on the table
ocean walrus
Define “very high”
Because I’ve done 32 and I’m not really interested in doing like, 40
bronze viper
In my defense, I'm arguing for 0+ heat
ocean walrus
I don’t think anyone defines 32 as “low heat” though lol
sly remnant
32 would be dependent on modifiers selected for me
mossy zinc
That's why I added "very". :P
bronze viper
(I'm of the opinion that FF is better at any heat, and that PS is an exception that can be made if your build has 2 natural Tier 1 status debuffs, ala Curse of Nausea or Low Tolerance builds)
trim sigil
@trim sigil That's a pretty black and white opinion on mods :hmmm:
I invite you to check out the mods for Hades
@gloomy musk don't worry, it was a bad joke
I am rather excited to see what tools mods have for players
ocean walrus
Like I do see that tier 1 makes it easier, and if those are options then I’ll take them, but it’s not like tier 2 is impossibly unlikely to get before you really need it
ocean walrus
It’s 40%, or it was, anyway
bronze viper
Opportunity cost is compared against FF
mossy zinc
40+, consistency and a good start matter a lot more. I'm with @bronze viper, speedrunners also use Privileged Status only for specific builds because Family Favorite is generally more consistent.
ocean walrus
Doesn’t family fave depend on getting boons from a bunch of different gods? Maybe I’m working with outdated info here
bronze viper
You are virtually guaranteed 25% by Elysium
twilit orbit
i think on 0 heat you can argue that enemies in regular rooms aren't super challenging, and there is no timer, so it doesnt matter whether you're dealing bonus damage to them or not
on the other hand, you're more likely to take damage vs bosses so you want to kill them faster
bronze viper
You have to go exceptionally out of your way to not by have 25% by Elysium
twilit orbit
which is where the 40% is good
ocean walrus
You can say that for a lot more than 0
mossy zinc
You're guaranteed to see at least 4 gods + Lord Hermes on a run.
twilit orbit
im pretty sure the game caps you at 4 + hermes right? unless you force additional gods with keepsakes
trim sigil
Yes
sly remnant
and the game will go out of its way to get you to the 4 different "normal" boon pool + hermes
ocean walrus
Seems like you’d have to sometimes make suboptimal choices with that too, though? Like you could never take one god too often without sacrificing getting an additional god
mossy zinc
You can see more than 4 if you have 3 and get to a shop. It's just rare.
bronze viper
There's also the thing that PS doesn't play nice with Artemis builds, and crit is extremely good
ocean walrus
So wouldn’t that make things like duos and legendaries harder to get?
twilit orbit
yeah the one downside of PS is that it doesnt work as well with artemis
true fable
@ocean walrus if you take <4 gods the game will keep force feeding you random gods until you have 4
twilit orbit
but I think aphro is also really good and works well with PS
true fable
why does marked expire on first hit 😦
sly remnant
yea @true fable said what i was trying to say in a better way
twilit orbit
marked is also hard to apply to the target you want to hit
if you crit hades then the mark goes on someone else
bronze viper
It expires on the first crit
true fable
its even harder to get the duo you're looking for when the game offers you irrelevant god boons
mossy zinc
Duo Boons and Legendary boons aren't affected by how many boons from any god you have. You just need the required boons to have a shot.
bronze viper
The games really doesn't want you to always get the duo or legendaries you want though lol. It actively tries to prevent that from happening
ocean walrus
Yes but of course you are more likely to have the right prereqs if you’ve seen that god more times
true fable
you do just need the required boons but what im saying is that if you dont have the 4 slots filled
ocean walrus
I’m aware of how the prereqs work
true fable
your next boon could be an unrelated god
like all those runs where i got ares/ath in tartarus and then saw nothing but dio/aphro/dem/zeus in asphodel 💀
twilit orbit
but anyways, I think status curses are fairly good even without PS
so I usually dont mind picking them up
PS just makes me want to pick up the second one even more
sly remnant
this is why you want your build to have multiple good duo options and not be dependent on one specific combo. because the game is going to keep giving you random gods until you hit your 4 cap. so you might as well get the gods you want with multiple backup duo options
twilit orbit
like if I have zeus attack and I get offered jolted I'm taking it most of the time even if I dont have PS
true fable
i feel like theres some runs where i end up with a build where i wouldve liked to have had PS, but the overall benefit i got from FF before I got two status curses far outweighed having PS
bronze viper
There are of course situations where PS is fine, but I have seen people do highly questionable things in the name of PS, like get Drunken Dash, or use the Rail special to apply it.
twilit orbit
there are times where you take something specifically to enable PS, but I havent found that my builds get too distorted
true fable
drunken dash lol
twilit orbit
are you not supposed to use the rail special to apply PS???
ocean walrus
I guess I just feel like “the benefit before I got two” is in a part of the run where it’s not really relevant what you had for damage modifiers
bronze viper
It's super inconsistent
trim sigil
I definitely have been taking passion dash back then for PS... not my proudest idea
twilit orbit
in most of my rail runs I just stick something like demeter or aphro on special and then just fire it while reloading
main attack has jolted
ocean walrus
I can’t remember a run I’ve done in recent months where I haven’t had two status effects to easily apply by Elysium
twilit orbit
it usually only matters with bosses
since most regular enemies I dont really need the extra dps to kill
though when they get hit with the grenade its still nice
trim sigil
Almost ideal PS case is Heartbreak Strike, Divine Dash and Blinding Flash
sly remnant
which are great if you get offered them
bronze viper
The only time I will ever take PS is on Low Tolerance or Curse of Nausea builds.
true fable
i like ps with ME but it is suboptimal i'll admit
twilit orbit
a lot of my chiron runs are aphro special + a second status on attack
true fable
requires way more athena boons than i usually get
twilit orbit
i had a terrible fists run where I tried to get ME and the game only ever offered me a single athena boon the whole run
which was my owl pendant boon
sly remnant
that happened to me 2 days ago
twilit orbit
not having divine dash really sucked since I took the athena special lol
ocean walrus
Like I said I’m not saying I don’t see the appeal of family fave, I’m just saying I’ve never struggled with getting two status effects or taking boons I don’t want in order to do so
bronze viper
I think the disconnect here is that at certain heat thresholds, normal rooms don't matter. With BP2, TDx, CPx, JSx, and DCx, normal rooms matter a whole hell of a lot.
true fable
i usually just self kill in asphodel if i dont get ME by then
ok then ur a young legend dama
ocean walrus
So I’ve never felt like PS was limiting me
true fable
if you have the 40% up all the time then it works for you
the game is tailored to the individual
ocean walrus
Not all the time, just on the things I’m hitting anyway
I’m not saying every enemy has it applied constantly
Just that for the things I’m trying to kill, I do get the extra damage
twilit orbit
yeah in low heat you really dont need damage boosts to kill regular enemies, if you can apply PS to them all its nice but if its hard then whatever just kill a few of them a bit slower
whereas PS is pretty easy to keep applied to most bosses and gives you a bigger damage boost vs them
and at low heat if a run is dying its almost certainly to a boss
true fable
i just like having PS for fists to watch non EM4 hades die in <1minute
though i probably dont need it tbh
ocean walrus
Also isn’t the wording on family favorite that Zag does more damage, while the wording on PS is that enemies take more damage, so it stacks multiplicatively instead of additively?
bronze viper
Though again I'd argue that for some bosses, like Dad in phase 1, he gets rids of statuses on himself quite often, so PS is relatively hard to maintain on him at all times even then.
No, they're identically implemented @ocean walrus
ocean walrus
It doesn’t need to be all times though, it needs to be while you’re hitting him
lost otter
found another very powerful combo.Ahillies spear
Athena zeus artemis (Athena+zeus and Athena +Artemis duos)
Mark PP
Poor Hades ate my balls. bouncer damage. Cast proc DR and clean rooms. max what i see was 3225. average crit 2790. Cast was lvl 6
Skulls kill hades
ocean walrus
Okay, thanks for clarifying
bronze viper
And also, fine, for your use case, since you always play Fists, since you always have Athena, and since your pact setup means you never have issues with normal enemies, PS is great, but that's like.... so many ifs.
ocean walrus
But also I don’t think it’s ONLY relevant to discuss 40 heat? There are heat numbers that are still legitimate accomplishments without being 40
true fable
wot
twilit orbit
I dont have much issues applying PS to bosses imo, its a bit like abyssal blood
most enemies I dont get the damage boost on because im lazy and dont take the effort to throw around casts all the time but if I'm fighting a boss its pretty easy to put in a little effort to keep the damage boost active all the time
true fable
thats a legendary boon screen
twilit orbit
likewise if I miss an enemy with a rail grenade or whatever and they dont get PS applied its whatever
but against bosses I'll put in the effort to aim a grenade at them when they stop moving
dry flame
it was from a mini boss
its funny cuz ares and aphro showed up together
but aphro's duo is the one crossed out
bronze viper
At 0 Heat, if I am playing Zag bow, with Heartbreak Strike, which is by far the most common scenario, is it worthwhile to take Frost Flourish to apply PS versus just having FF and being able to ignore the existence of my special, or having to take Gods I don't want to.
ocean walrus
Lol yes it’s a bunch of ifs which are generally true for me, which is why I said I prefer privileged status, not that it’s always better in every circumstance for everyone 😜
twilit orbit
i mean what are you taking if not FF?
twilit orbit
would we rather just not have a boon on our special at all?
bronze viper
I can just pick Gold, or Heart, or nothing.
trim sigil
Or sell special boon later
lost otter
At 0 Heat, if I am playing Zag bow, with Heartbreak Strike, which is by far the most common scenario, is it worthwhile to take Frost Flourish to apply PS versus just having FF and being able to ignore the existence of my special, or having to take Gods I don't want to.
@bronze viper problem when ppl dont use Stygian soul to have another status. IMO. that another reason i have SS. becaus almost all statuses have 4s. CD on cast 3 sec.
bronze viper
@twilit orbit On Zag Bow? Yes I would prefer to not have to use my special at all
ocean walrus
Lol that is fair
twilit orbit
but I still use special on zag bow 😦
bronze viper
If anything I'd probably take Deadly Flourish for outs to Heart Rend
While retaining Divine Dash
And because if I get Charged Volley, Deadly Flourish is actually great to use
@bronze viper problem when ppl dont use Stygian soul to have another status. IMO. that another reason i have SS. becaus almost all statuses have 4s. CD on cast 3 sec.
@lost otter Crush Shot is the only cast that applies a status though? If you mean any of Phalanx, Flood, or Electric, you're running to the issue we were discussing before about Tier 2 statuses
mossy zinc
Crit builds generally don't care much for Privileged Status.
twilit orbit
i mean you could just think of a status on your special as +15% damage on your primary attack
except you have to press your special button every few seconds
bronze viper
Lol, or I could think of my attack as just having +25% damage without an if statement
twilit orbit
its a good way to turn a boon on a button you dont care too much about into something that buffs your primary button
that +15 is additional over the +25
ocean walrus
I’ve taken Artemis special with dem fists, had status effects on attack and dash, and it’s been good
twilit orbit
you would have had with the other mirror
trim sigil
Even if crit builds could care about PS, they would run into issues of getting it through at very least dash and secondary attack
twilit orbit
status on dash is much easier to apply if you're melee
I usually dont have an issue applying status on dash with melee weapons but I have to actually make a conscious effort to do so with range
bronze viper
Most aspects are not melee though, Shield is hybridish.
ocean walrus
But it’s not like it’s random what your aspect and weapon is, you can choose the mirror layout that makes sense for it
So if it’s melee, then maybe PS is not so inconsistent
twilit orbit
it mostly just depends on your build imo
lost otter
i dont know. im almost all time play with PS. i dont know about what we talk. i dont take uselless gods in pool to have +5 damage. i better to take boon from MY god for status and bonus damage. becaus ANY status provide bonus damage. and PS increae this damage too.
I dont have any problems with PS. and use FF almost never.i can take poseidons cast with debuff. and its better then have poseidon cast and passive from ares.
bronze viper
It is kind of random though. Unless you're aiming for two tier 1s, getting any particular tier 2 is very non-deterministic
twilit orbit
if you're planning on artemis early then I think PS gets a lot worse
ocean walrus
It’s not random what your weapon and aspect is, is what I said
twilit orbit
since artemis means you usually dont have status on your primary dps
ocean walrus
You choose them
twilit orbit
you also choose your first boon a lot of the time
lost otter
since artemis means you usually dont have status on your primary dps
@twilit orbit you dont know how use mark than.
twilit orbit
so you can just swap between FF and PS based on what you plan on doing going into the run
ocean walrus
Therefore saying “PS is not good because most aspects are not melee” doesn’t make sense to me because you can turn it on just for melee aspects/weapons, it is a deliberate decision
twilit orbit
mark is like the least consistent status effect to apply imo
bronze viper
I only mentioend melee because all of your own arguments are predicated on you being able to dash into enemies
waxen relic
wasn't the discussion about pick and forget some time ago?
lost otter
mark is like the least consistent status effect to apply imo
@twilit orbit 🤣 👍
bronze viper
Which is disingenuous, and also not even guaranteed on melee aspects themselves.
twilit orbit
tbh I think the strict melee weapons are sword + fist
ocean walrus
How is it disingenuous when I’ve been saying outright the whole time that I’m playing fists?
twilit orbit
shield and spear both have builds that can go either way
trim sigil
Well, mark is indeed the only status effect that requires a random effect to occur in first place. Plus a t2 boon requirement
twilit orbit
rail and bow are obviously ranged almost always
mark also goes on a second enemy
so like, if I'm hitting a boss and I want to activate PS on the boss
lost otter
mark alone best damage increasing in game
twilit orbit
I have to wait for the boss to spawn adds
ocean walrus
I’ve never been saying anything at all about what people should pick for other weapons and aspects, I am strictly talking about how my own experience with PS while playing fists has been just fine
twilit orbit
then I need to hit the adds and hope the mark goes on the boss
ocean walrus
Since this entire conversation stemmed from someone telling me I should take FF
true fable
love to mark an enemy for PS just for PS to go away as soon as i hit them once :^)
trim sigil
Mark by itself is great. It's just not suited towards PS
twilit orbit
its hella unreliable and at that point you might as well just take FF
true fable
i just feel like thats a lot of finagling that doesnt make sense
twilit orbit
yeah thats what I'm saying, if you want to take artemis you should just take FF
true fable
well if you dont want to take ff dont take ff
twilit orbit
since its so hard to keep status applied constantly when your primary dps is artemis
trim sigil
Gotta enjoy how balanced FF and PS are that there is no exquisite favorite
cinder cave
I mean that's just good design
twilit orbit
i think the most balanced mirror choice is the refreshing cast vs the 3 casts
cinder cave
a generic buff that is easy to maintain and acquire vs a more powerful but more difficult to achieve damage buff
ocean walrus
I think they’ve done an excellent job designing it so that there is a reason to choose each thing depending on circumstances
twilit orbit
who chooses ruthless reflex though 🤔
ocean walrus
And all I’m saying is that in my own circumstances, I think PS is not such an unreasonable choice
bronze viper
who chooses ruthless reflex though 🤔
@twilit orbit Can of worms with @lost otter in the channel
cinder cave
xD some people really dislike greater reflex
trim sigil
Ruthless reflex is godlike if you get the extra dashes, and some aggressive aspects can do with 1 dash and 50% dodge
lost otter
and probably this discussion must be not in High heat chanel. becaus feels like....not all of us have 40+heat experience to talk about what better on 40+ heat. for me FF best damage modifire and mark what i can take in 40+ heat.
ocean walrus
I’ve had fun with ruthless reflex and the lambent plume and dodge from Hermes and dodge after calling... but I don’t play with it generally speaking
twilit orbit
i feel like the discussion veered into general builds/combat about 200 messages ago and never returned
mossy zinc
Finally sub 12 with Chiron first try with Drunken Flourish. Low Tolerance is definitely faster than Heart Rend. https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/725021639506526249/767796233367453746/Hades_1031.png?width=834&height=469
Should be better for DC2, too, I would think.
ocean walrus
@lost otter is “high heat” really defined as specifically 40+?
bronze viper
We typically optimize for 40+ here, because at 32, it's more a matter of skill and execution
You can take whatever builds you want to 32 and do great
So why optimize
mossy zinc
There's no strict definition on what's "high heat".
ocean walrus
Maybe I am bad then, because it took deliberate choices to make 32 possible for me
true fable
just @me next time silly
twilit orbit
i am also bad
mossy zinc
32 was very hard for me the first time. Nowadays it's pretty free.
true fable
all joking aside i definitely need to shore up execution
bronze viper
We're all bad to some degree, the game is a process of gradual improvement.
twilit orbit
it took me multiple hours of grinding to get a successful 32 run
true fable
take too many stray hits in normal encounters
bronze viper
My first 32 without Chaos pre-1.0 was terrible
twilit orbit
I had a bunch of runs die in styx because I didnt get the sack early enough on 32 lol
it was so depressing
lost otter
because the difficulty for each added skull after 40 grows incredibly.
twilit orbit
yeah my biggest issue right now is that sometimes I randomly get boned in normal encounters
true fable
i got a 5 sack the closest I ever got to clearing 32 hest
bronze viper
But I didn't need to like optimize my boons or whatever to get over the hump, it was just a matter of iterating and learning how to hit stuff better and get hit less.
true fable
and somehow wrangled out with 3 dds and got speared
ocean walrus
It just seems like discussion of what you should pick for 32 is still a relevant discussion to have since it’s not just a matter of “be good don’t die” — the choices you make for pact and boons and mirror have a big impact on how possible that is
true fable
its always felt possible to me to just play better and not die
the problem is that PoP is very personal
mossy zinc
Originally, we asked for a high-heat channel because we felt that constantly talking about 40+ in #h1-builds-and-combat (a lot of us among the most active players here) was intimidating a lot of players who were only concerned with dealing with 4 Heat or whatever, and a lot of discussions went into "yeah, but at 40+ x is good/bad" "but I like x at 5 Heat" etc., which was not very productive for anybody.
I would say 32 is better suited for this channel than for #h1-builds-and-combat, though.
Usually the people trying their first 32 come to this channel for advice.
ocean walrus
We all know the real reason to do that much heat is to get the Skelly statue
mossy zinc
Yeah.
bronze viper
Lol, the hourly "what pacts for 32 are easiest" question.
trim sigil
I mean, it's obvious milestone
mossy zinc
I'm doing 40+ for Skelly statues. I'm sure he has another one he's hiding somewhere!
twilit orbit
yeah I did 32 for the skelly statue and now im back to grinding all the bounties so I can upgrade my weapons lol
mossy zinc
What will it take to get it? 8 > 16 > 32 > . . . ohhhhh wait. 
wanton plover
monkas
bronze viper
We'll patiently wait for the speedrunning discord to confirm how cool the 64 statue is
twilit orbit
64 is the max heat right?
bronze viper
Probably Skelly on a boat
ocean walrus
How much can you get with hell mode and em4?
mossy zinc
64 is max in Hell mode.
ocean walrus
SO THERE’S A CHANCE
true fable
@twilit orbit i did the opposite i failed 32 so now im grinding all weps for bounties haha
wanton plover
yea just clear 64 heat poggers
true fable
i also want the themes and stuff
trim sigil
Sounds easy enough
true fable
64 heat seems like some fun TAS stuff
mossy zinc
64 Heat prize: You free Skelly.
twilit orbit
you get to play as skelly
true fable
no freeing skelly his paycheck is too good
trim sigil
You get to kill skelly by the smug aura
wanton plover
also guys i came to ask on zag bow do you like art or ath dash
the deadline poops on me without art dash peeposad
mossy zinc
64 Heat prize: Skelly kills you.
bronze viper
Depends wildly on the heat you're on lol
trim sigil
Either works but I'd probably take hunter dash
wanton plover
42
bronze viper
It's probably preferential at that point
wanton plover
5head
bronze viper
Divine Dash gets a lot more necessary if you have Twin Shot, or if you're on EM4
mossy zinc
JS0 CP0 DC0 TD3 is a good combo that should be easily doable.
true fable
RI2 seems like a lot of pain
twilit orbit
how many high heat runs are done that don't involve owl pendant
bronze viper
Several
Not many. Just several lol
The issue is more than just Divine Dash. It's the Asphodel + DD combo
mossy zinc
The first 40 Heat was done with Pierced Butterfly throughout.
twilit orbit
im looking at a keepsake tier list on reddit and all the god keepsakes are lumped into B tier
which just seems wrong to me because certain gods I take the keepsakes for a lot and others I ignore completely
like I rarely take dionysus keepsake
twilit orbit
but being able to force athena/aphrodite/artemis, or zeus on rail is basically gamebreaking
twilit orbit
acorn is great but it makes me irrationally angry if I get an acorn charge burned by an add in the hades fight
bronze viper
@twilit orbit Or a Theseus drive-by lol
trim sigil
Mmm, I do believe that gods' qualities should not impact the rating for keepsakes
Because at the end of the day, people use them to force what they already need
ocean walrus
Yeah.... butterfly ball on hades burning acorn charges is pretty rage-worthy
bronze viper
@trim sigil Maybe, but I don't see any other Gods handing me DDs... soooo
mossy zinc
^
trim sigil
I see dio handing me over that nectar
twilit orbit
its just that some gods give you stuff that is generally more useful than others imo
trim sigil
so
true fable
like strong drink
mossy zinc
DDs > Nectar.
true fable
/s
twilit orbit
poseidon keepsake in S tier because doing a farming run without him sucks
mossy zinc
She also buffs your SD while giving you a legendary-tier boon at tier 2 lol.
true fable
im still working on the 5k gems one
bronze viper
To not include her legendary-tier boons at Tier 1
Her actual legendary is next to impossible to get for some reason, I don't actually know the prereqs
true fable
its absurd how much utility sthena boons have
ocean walrus
Brilliant riposte
bronze viper
But it's kind of insane I haven't gotten it more considering how much Owl Pendant I take
mossy zinc
It's just Brilliant Riposte, yeah.
true fable
like having her in your pool is just budget patty
ocean walrus
You need brilliant riposte for Athena legendary
trim sigil
It's just brilliant riposte but her legendary is extremely rare for no reason
ocean walrus
So you need something that deflects, and then brilliant riposte, and then she can offer it
mossy zinc
Well, it's extremely rare because you need one specific boon lol.
trim sigil
Nah, it's like, after taking that specific boon it's still rather 1 in 50
twilit orbit
yeah athena legendary has pretty harsh requirements
mossy zinc
The odds for legendaries are the same for everyone, I'm very sure.
bronze viper
I was about to say... I take Riposte pretty highly. I prefer it over Blinding Flash a lot of the time.
trim sigil
I prefer flash over riposte but both are quite high on list for me
twilit orbit
huge catch might have the worst requirements of any legendary :^)
but its not something that most people care about outside of farming runs
bronze viper
Well, at least I used to when deflecting Dad skulls actually did anything
bronze viper
They nerfed that too though lol
ocean walrus
I should try to get back to doing 32+ heat
I haven’t been playing as much hades
All my “get good at stuff” points are being focused on other things right now haha
true fable
yeah im tryna take a break by playing transistor and pyre before getting back into it
bronze viper
I took a multi month break, partially to get back in the mood and to allow my soul to mend from AP2
true fable
been playing hades basically nonstop since 1.0 release
ocean walrus
1.0 hit in the thick of my sayonara wild hearts obsession
So I have been playing some but not as much as a few months ago
mossy zinc
I should have just said "no" when Amir asked if I had a video of my "Mewmew Special" Malphon WR back then. They nerfed the hell out of my build and Deflect damage to bosses. 
daring hedge
i have SWH on switch but still haven't played it 😔
mossy zinc
SWH?
daring hedge
sayonara wild hearts
mossy zinc
Oh.
lost otter
Very sweet game with awesome soundtrack)
ocean walrus
I don’t want to go off topic but hit me up if you want any high score strats when you get around to playing it
mossy zinc
Well, it's not Star Fox, why would you play that if you're playing on a Nintendo console?
daring hedge
because there's no star fox game on switch
true fable
cries in relegated franchise
bronze viper
Just watched the trailer, is it a J-pop-RPG?
mossy zinc
Can't you emulate the SNES game or something?
bronze viper
Can't you emulate the SNES game or something?
@mossy zinc He does that just by existing
ocean walrus
It’s like a rhythm arcade runner pop album experience
daring hedge
oh right, true
ocean walrus
You can do a high speed motorbike chase with giant mecha-Cerberus
lost otter
dont spoire
mossy zinc
We're not off-topic.
daring hedge
yeah that's how zagreus escapes
ocean walrus
For people who don’t mind spoilers: [World Record] Dead of Night — 68020 — Sayonara Wild Hearts [Better Quality] https://youtu.be/K1KoNpAqJ1s
That’s the Cerberus level
Anyway I won’t keep it off topic!
mossy zinc
It's okay. If Aggy says anything, we'll just blackmail them with screenshots of all the times they went off-topic along with us. And I think Aggy is the only one who regularly checks this channel.
ocean walrus
I am happy to continue discussing in #video-games though
The more people I can get to share my obsession, the better
trim sigil
Speaking of Cerberus, it's a bummer EM4 Cerberus didn't get some extra fancy armor
Like, yknow, for the extra fearsomeness
bronze viper
Because he's not a 3 dog headed 1 cat headed monstrosity
bronze viper
You can make your own Catberus
mossy zinc
How can you not click on it?
ember bronze
Do unsellable boons (premium vintage) not count for Family Favorite?
trim sigil
As we have defined, the only cat creature in hades is flame wheel and I sure as hell won't click on them
daring hedge
@ember bronze they do not, but it's also not consistent
for example, sunken treasure counts
but is obviously unsellable
bronze viper
I never heard is a "meow" until we mentioned that here. And now I can't unhear it
mossy zinc
@trim sigil what about the Queen of Hades? I'm also a cat girl.
trim sigil
Well, first of all I'm not sure if you tolerate clicking 
especially from the internet strangers
mossy zinc
Errr.
bronze viper
Pretty sure there's a whole culture of internet strangers clicking cat girls, but that's neither here nor there.
trim sigil
Ah yes, the beo queen
ember bronze
I wonder if Sunken Treasure is different because it has to be tracked for a legendary prereq
bronze viper
It's hard to tell
daring hedge
that's been a theory, yeah
bronze viper
The game is laden with weird one-off exceptions
mossy zinc
Finding something that's not an exception is in itself an exception.
That is to say, all is Chaos.
bronze viper
While-you're-Dashing Flight
ember bronze
How does that work anyway
bronze viper
It is a Dash-Special
I only found this out like, yesterday, lmao. I just thought it was a troll placebo
mossy zinc
While you Dash, you have no chance to survive make your time.
Successive Hit Damage: 50%
daring hedge
the description is especially bizarre given dash specials already exist and have been worded better before
it's just... why
bronze viper
I have spent... a lot of time just dashing around after my special with Chaos and staring pointlessly at my shields, willing them to change behavior
mossy zinc
Your Cast gains any bonuses you have for great justice.
Bonus Great Justice Damage: +25%
daring hedge
ah that's multiplicative, you can tell because it uses the word bonus
ember bronze
ALso how does that one work
ember bronze
I've seen people doing huge damage with Athena cast, Hera, Blinding Flash
but like--does the cast have to be from the back?
What back damage bonuses count?
etc
true fable
no
daring hedge
i do like how relatively easy it is to get parting shot and blinding flash in the same run
maybe one day i will actually do a parting shot run 
trim sigil
I have yet to understand why parting shot cast dmg bonus is so inconsistent if you don't have to target the back
ember bronze
So if a mob has Blinding Flash, all your casts just get the bonus
Do we know about e.g. Shadow Slash?
bright raptor
You do have to hit from the back IIRC
it's fairly easy to test if you ever get parting shot
bronze viper
Okay, so it is a permanent cast damage bonus, not contingent upon backstabbing with casts
bright raptor
with the exception of athena cast on hera bow
daring hedge
i'm inclined to say shadow slash is still exclusive to your attack but also i could just be wrong
bronze viper
@bright raptor I always end up with Parting Shot but testing it usually pretty far from my mind lol, it's usually selling it I'm into
trim sigil
Shadow Slash is probably exclusive to the attack yes
daring hedge
i mostly have that feeling because hammers are typically weird
trim sigil
Hammers always do that sort of nasty things
To the point where hoarding slash may or may not affect dash strikes despite being attack-focused
bronze viper
Breaching-But-Not-Dashing Slash
bright raptor
Yeah but it's probably worth keeping in mind for the future
for that one day you'll randomly think to test it
daring hedge
hoarding but the money doesn't care about your dash-strike slash
trim sigil
Cruel-but-chill-when-you-dash-thrust
ember bronze
Yeah, Hammers are weird
dry flame
hammers are everthyhing
bronze viper
Sword, Fist and Rail hammers are all over the place
ember bronze
You have -60% health, but your dash has no chance to survive make your time
true fable
i can test it again but im p sure my damage went up when i picked up blinding flash
trim sigil
Your Special becomes a Shifter ability and you get 0.8sec of Sturdy
true fable
poorly worded descriptions yay!
mossy zinc
Any Health effects are more potent. Restore +30% now.
dry flame
nourished soul
mossy zinc
This is an easily understood description. I don't understand why no one ever takes it.
dry flame
what about it
bright raptor
Blinding flash does affect parting shot
bronze viper
Nourishing Soul feels like a bad 3-way language translation.
dry flame
how does LC affect nourished soul
bronze viper
The worst way possible
dry flame
oh
mossy zinc
That's the joke.
bronze viper
Has anyone else ever just not picked up the health thing from Nourishing Soul (obv without LC)
mossy zinc
Which boon is it?
mossy zinc
Correct.
bronze viper
Because the boons says Restore +30% now.
trim sigil
Sounds like Tidal Dash to me
true fable
tidal dash is unironically good
bronze viper
It's a little ironic
ember bronze
Yeah, I've forgotten the gyro
trim sigil
Unironically better attack boon than tempest strike
bronze viper
It's still very good, but it's impossible to not feel cheesy when you're using it with Eris
mossy zinc
It's ironic indeed because it's not Divine Dash.
true fable
i dont take it for high heat at all but its make gun go fast
trim sigil
better gun than gun
mossy zinc
I mean, you could take it for 32 for sure. Don't need anything else.
bronze viper
I tried it at 46 yesterday. You go really fast. And die really faster
mossy zinc
Tidal Dash helped me beat TD at 52 when I got it in Elysium. I was kinda pressed for time. Life saver.
trim sigil
I am fairly sure there is little to no ferrum in the waters of tidal dash so it cannot be ironic
mossy zinc
Wow, you're so punny.
bronze viper
I say it like "iron" to irritate pedants
ember bronze
I've been messing with speed lately so Tidal Dash been fun, but I'm usually not sad to see it
trim sigil
You should be glad athena uses bronze because otherwise I would have made a point that divine dash is ironic
mossy zinc
Wow, you're so very punny.
bronze viper
Tidal Dash + Rupture on Eris is so gas. It's still not Divine Dash but eh
mossy zinc
Almost fell of my chair and hurt myself very badly. I would have sent you the bill.
trim sigil
Chaos one, knew it
bronze viper
"Your Attack and Special are stronger the first 10 Sec. in Encounter(s)."
Why are the parentheses even there around the s
mossy zinc
Oh nvm that last part is just from the wiki.
Your Attack deals no damage and knocks foes away.
There, Amir. I fixed one description.
Accurate now.
ember bronze
Hey, writing tooltips is really hard
trim sigil
Sounds like rama repulse
bronze viper
It's a fair description of Repulse Shot lmao
mossy zinc
I just went through the descriptions for all the boons, and most of them are very good.
Tempest Strike unfortunately is very misleading.
ember bronze
What's wrong with it?
bronze viper
It implies that more damage is done.
Someone on the Dev team had some serious fear that Tempest Strike would rule the world. Wanted to nip that one right in the bud.
mossy zinc
Speedrunners take Eris and Lightning Strike, marathon runners take Zag sword and Tempest Strike.
bronze viper
Power walkers.
trim sigil
Marathon runners actually go for Zeus shield Tempest Flourish
It may sound faster but
mossy zinc
Pushing enemies away from your spin2win shield sounds great for DPS.
I don't see the issue.
trim sigil
Me neither
the actual issue is trying to play zag sword unironically
which I have fallen to, and then perished to champions
bronze viper
Weren't you definitionally playing it ironically?
trim sigil
No, I was trying to utilize the new atk speed
bronze viper
Oh I thought it was blood price for some reason
bronze viper
You are known for your Merciful End play.
sly remnant
man. double sneak spawn on em4 hades
ember bronze
Do you often ignore adds on EM4 phase 1?
sly remnant
no i normally battie the wave 1
bronze viper
I try to. They don't ignore me though
So I feel like it's impolite to not return the favor
sly remnant
i wasn't going to spend the last 1/3rd of hades health bar chasing down two sneaks tho
trim sigil
Depends on what summons are there
Also it's hard to ignore first third summons but second third may be skipped with burst on dad
sly remnant
i tried but they still ate my DD
bronze viper
I typically kill the first one and try to Meg + Call + Burst Dad down for the second wave
sly remnant
maybe thats what i should have done
limpid nymph
wow I hate the doomstones and don't care about sneaks
sly remnant
i tried charming dad to kill the sneaks for me but they just stealth'd out
bronze viper
You can get some THICCCCCCCCC damage on Dad with the Doomstones with Rama lol
daring hedge
yeah lol
and it can't flinch you out of anything
looking at you angrily soul catcher
bronze viper
But screw the Sneaks, I can't even kill 1 with Rama, by itself
I usually aim to bore it to death in Tartarus
bronze viper
I don't like how long they stay invisible
bronze viper
I would rather have 2 Super Elite Chariots
daring hedge
yeah, the fact that they all teleport is a pain
"ah, finally you're going to die- nevermind, 5 more seconds"
limpid nymph
I guess I'm the only one getting destroyed by doomstones lol
I hate the butterflies too though
bronze viper
They're not fun for melee, but nothing in EM4 is lol
true fable
butterflies melt acorn and then i am a sad squishy
bronze viper
Dad just stabbing you with a frame -10 spear in melee range is pretty fun too
daring hedge
cerberus circles breaking an urn while you're dashing across it
lost otter
butterflies melt acorn and then i am a sad squishy
@true fable REaly???accorn count butterflies from foe in hades figth??
bronze viper
I swear he just stabbed me from the past or something
trim sigil
Acorn counts anything damaging including butterflies so yes
bronze viper
@lost otter Yep, they always have, any source of damage
trim sigil
I think like one exception is lava damage
daring hedge
yeah, it's from foes specifically, which includes the boss itself or adds
lava isn't a foe really
lost otter
I'm glad my acorn is in the trash can. and from beginign.
Huuuuuge - to acorn in EM4 figth
its mean one summon sneaky\teleporting guy can demolish acorn.
bronze viper
With HL5 that's already an enormous amount of damage mitigated though
trim sigil
It is not too far fetched to lose that only to butterflies
bronze viper
If acorn prevents 1 spear chuck and 4 butterflies in EM4, that's still like over 100 health, and that's pretty close to worst case scenario
daring hedge
it has unfortunately happened to me yeah
lost otter
becaus EM 4 have....sneaky teleport guy, or cristal with huge unmount of adds.acorn can be demolished immidiatly
trim sigil
We just need people to learn what defines front for zagreus to utilize 30% dmg reduction from bracer to the max 
Sadly it seems to clash with dashing away so h
lost otter
im use broken spear or brasers on hades EM4. Broken spear prevent second spin damage in 100% . you take first spin but second dont do damage. becaus in FO2 second spin fast. faster then 1.5 second.(broken spear give 1.5s invulnerability).and you can be hit with laser only one time.
sly remnant
thats an interesting idea. i should check that out
mossy zinc
Pure skill. No carry. https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/725021639506526249/767818205661364224/Hades_1032.png?width=834&height=469
trim sigil
Spear probably is a pretty reasonable pick now that EM4 minibosses are a thing
mossy zinc
I had to, like, time my reloads and stuff.
daring hedge
spearpoint not being able to prevent the first hit though is huge, considering how much damage EM4 HL5 superdad does in the first place
so i just don't bother
limpid nymph
yea I honestly feel that acorn will prevent more damage more consistently
lost otter
im already chech this) becaus try all defence keepsake when doing artur runs.
best in feelings on EM4 FO2 HL5 its brasers and broken spear.
daring hedge
@mossy zinc is 3 heat... high heat now?