that too. Tossing that big ol shiled without it is still fun though.
#h1-high-heat-strategies
uncut wigeon
twin bramble
what is the primary benefit to starting a game in hell mode vs normal?
my understanding is it just makes things more difficult if you want increased challenge right?
fallow stream
You have the ability to turn off personal liability for extra heat
That's the only benefit
hollow lynx
personal liability is one of the non-optional heat conditions
fallow stream
I don't understand what the issue is with the new chaos shield spread.
It's still Uber powerful, just takes a little gameplay adjustment
wraith imp
"It's still Uber powerful"
That seems like a strech.
zeus builds don't look or feel as powerful. But bablo made a good point on another server. It now improves other builds (like dionysus) by allowing the v-shaped 75 degree launch to act like a shotgun blast.
fallow stream
Ok... Rending claws + Frost strike is hilariously powerful
Especially if you also get killing freeze
rough ermine
because in EM4, he will start spawning grey wretched sneaks, skull-crushers and megagorgons
fallow stream
Ah
fallow stream
I've seen elite megagorgons before em4
rough ermine
and it radiates the pink aoe it used to radiate in asphodel
fallow stream
Em4 has nothing to do with the spawns, as far as I know
rough ermine
oh I actually mean megagorgons and not regular gorgons
fallow stream
Oh I know
I've seen megagorgons at heat 40 in blood price
Never seen skull crushers though
rough ermine
and if wretched sneaks also start spawning wringers of its own in the fight
yeah but like, I'm talking teleporting megagorgons
fallow stream
They all teleport
fallow stream
Honestly, I use Skelly as my companion for that exact reason
Throw him out there and hit them all while they are distracted
Also extremely useful for diving into Erebus
rough ermine
are you sure it's in blood price
fallow stream
Yes
fallow stream
Actually you are, lol
rough ermine
or rather
fallow stream
Repeatedly
fallow stream
I've never seen wretched sneaks or skull crushers, those are new
honest kernel
^
rough ermine
ah
honest kernel
I can confirm that
fallow stream
Yes
rough ermine
I've never actually seen EM4 spawn anything OTHER THAN minibosses though
which in a way
that's kinda nice
nobody like fighting elysium spawns anyway
honest kernel
Oh I've had it spawn elysium spawns like just now
rough ermine
oh so they exists still then
rough ermine
ah
fallow stream
I still cannot believe how effective rending claws + Frost strike is ๐คฃ
rough ermine
maybe EM4 just summons regular Elysium super-elites because he can't summon Asterius
?
fallow stream
You pretty much completely stop the enemy
honest kernel
Sounds like it
honest kernel
Also the new keepsake, ||Sigile of Darkness||, is potentially insane on some weapons
rough ermine
you can just straight up ignore him and kill the boss anyway
fallow stream
If SGG actually made it possible to spawn Asterius, that would be cheap
rough ermine
imagine EM3 asterius beyblading in the EM4 arena
rough ermine
not sure if he still summons butterfly
honest kernel
He does
rough ermine
ah
honest kernel
And they like to teleport
rough ermine
and uh
honest kernel
He summons 2 of them too
rough ermine
oh ok I think I know what happens
Tartarus spawns can be either Sneak or Doomstone
Asphodel spawns can be either 2 skull-crushers or 2 megagorgons
Elysium spawns can be either super-elite shades or butterfly
and tbh
doomstone is like one of the more annoying ones
good thing it doesn't do that much damage
now back to what I was saying about MM applying or not
I have no idea if skull crushers are going to radiate the pink circle or if sneaks are going to start spawning wringers
rough ermine
ok I just did a EM4 MM run, minibosses like sneak/skull crushers/megagorgon do not get the MM effect
and doomstone's MM effect is basically just an arena change anyway
alpine egret
any build tipps for em4 hades? just got him into ||3rd phase|| and had almost no health left. can his ||healing animation|| be interrupted?
tidal flame
Why is high heat strat below boasting now? I thought we were above? Am i hallucinating this?
@alpine egret you can break the pots to stop the healings.
alpine egret
didnt even see the pots. the picture got dark and I panicked. already had put down the controller since thought its over
next venture
Not sure if this belongs here, but getting used to EM4 and trying out ||Sigil of the Dead||, and trying to stack up as much bonus damage to use with special.
Chiron bow, Special: Athena, Dash: Athena to go for Blinding Flash. Attack: Zeus for Billowing Strength.
Attack, activate ||SotD||, spam special.
At 10 heat that chewed through the final boss
alpine egret
wanted to try some noob perma athena call build. did 32 pre 1.0 like that, but will try that chiron build first
rough ermine
sometimes I just don't bother breaking pots
they heal him for 1500 each I think
and during the time he stops and stands still to heal
alpine egret
so u spam backstab atk on him when he heals?
rough ermine
you can (though not very easily) just straight up out-damage him
the healing animation takes a damn while
next venture
I got lucky and had Concentrated volley and Relentless Volley. and yeah, it was able to keep up with the healing after using the call
rough ermine
I just backstab him with a couple of hestia spams
though depending on your build
it may be harder to out damage the heal
but then also depending on the build
it can also be super easy to break the pots
alpine egret
ye, was goin for lucifer with 8stack dio dot. wasnt the biggest deeps there at boss...
rough ermine
I think the weapon that might have issues dealing enough damage is aegis
but with aegis you can also just shield yourself from almost everything anyway
which means unless you're on TD you're not really in a rush
the thing is with bow you can line up power shots super easily
with malphon you can get up close and personal and spam away
next venture
I tired chaos shield and it was tough to keep up with the damage on the final battle with EM4. Granted I had aphro on special, and no good tier 2 boon
rough ermine
both sword and spear will have a fairly easy time breaking pots
imo there's a way to deal with the healing for every weapon
yeah I think unfortunately chaos is the only aspect that actually deals decent damage
I haven't tried the buffed zeus though
next venture
That build was a lot of fun. I posted the victory screen from that run in #h1-victory-boasting
rough ermine
I think overall EM4 might be the hardest with malphon
but then so does every other boss
tidal flame
With Divine Strike it's OK.
rough ermine
malphon just has such a cripping lack of range
bright crescent
so what do yall think about dark foresight versus legacy for high heat
tardy path
Dark foresight for me
I like having boons occur more often and I keep the other one to increase the chance of them being epic
bright crescent
yeah same
admittedly foresight does reduce your resource gain which sucks for renovations but thats not really a concern of high heat runs
mossy zinc
I think it's moot because high heat is typically run with RI1.
halcyon frost
Man, how are we feeling about ||Superdad|| I am so happy with that fight, I feel it is the single greatest addidion. just got past him for the first time, although I kinda regret that it was with the Aphro call, smoldering air cheese.
wicked sparrow
I'm struggling a bit with FO1 standard ||Hades|| and that worries me. It seems I always react just a moment late, especialy after the ||usage of Darkness||.
uncut wigeon
takes a little bit to get used to FO1 hades
you do enough practice and you get the rhythm of it though.
mossy zinc
@torn vapor did somebody accidentally move this channel below #h1-victory-boasting, or was it intentional?
ruby cipher
Prepare to move below localization. Real underground stuff.
mossy zinc
Gotta enter a secret code in #bot-commands to get a secret role that lets you see the channel. Then you have to confirm you're over 18 to see its content.
ruby cipher
Confirm heat level over 18*
torn vapor
@torn vapor did somebody accidentally move this channel below #h1-victory-boasting, or was it intentional?
@mossy zinc No one moved this channel accidentally.
tidal flame
High heat runners = 2nd grade citizens /s
uncut wigeon
high heat runners = people who nerfed fun weapons on accident due to really niche playstyles in specific circumstances.
RIP Chaos Shield and others
๐ญ
Also asterius is being really stingy with his RNG
mossy zinc
Maybe we did it on purpose. 
hollow lynx
high heat runners are also the ones responsible for the bow buffs, so all is right in the world 
tidal flame
Can I claim some credits for pushing that?
hollow lynx
claim all of them
the sacrifice of chaos shield for the glory of the bow shall not be forgotten 
tidal flame
Chaos Shield died so others can live
mossy zinc
@tidal flame no. I'm taking all the credit for bow buffs. https://discordapp.com/channels/456889434672201729/525022184280948736/733198530365358121
alpine egret
just managed first em4 run. failed with new malph and with luc. done ez with chiron (athena special, aprho atk (for priming) athena call (lv4, over 12s invinc when full gauge) 1 chaos special dmg up.
tardy path
Nice ๐
stoic meteor
i'm currently working on clearing all of my bounties for the endgame resource materials so i jsut turn the heat to 20 for every run. i started skipping every charon encounter to save my coin and now i can get a bonus titan blood/diamond/ambrosia in styx almost every time 
is this the high heat strategy we're looking for
tardy path
I mean if it works, it works
ornate dust
which fist aspect do you all use to 15+heat and what to pick?
mossy zinc
Any.
tidal flame
all of them are fine. I like Demeter just 'cause
tardy path
Any of them work
mossy zinc
The build you want is Divine Strike + Divine Flourish + Divine Dash + Phalanx Shot + Dionysus' Aid.
tidal flame
why not Deadly Flourish for Deadly Reversal?
mossy zinc
It's an option, too.
Long Knuckle, Breaching Cross, and Explosive Upper are easily the best hammers.
ornate dust
tyty what heats are you adding up?
mossy zinc
Er.
tardy path
Like what we do usaully?
mossy zinc
Well, I run LC4 FO2 TD3 by default. That's 16 heat.
I don't go below that, so no idea lol. I guess TD2 instead before 1.0.
tidal flame
I do BP2 FO2 TD2 EM3 that should be a decent amount of heat.
mossy zinc
EM3 is easily one of the worst pacts you could pick for Malphon.
I think bablo, Resqtoaster, and I all agree on that. It's doable, but it's just unnecessarily difficult. There are way easier options.
I guess it's 3 heat now, though, but I'd still just pick EM2 instead, honestly.
tidal flame
i mean at that amount of heat, does it really matter?
mossy zinc
Yeah, it does matter for them. Otherwise they wouldn't ask.
mossy zinc
LC4 sounds scary at first, but with Stubborn Defiance, you have a reliable form of healing throughout the run to get a lot of effective HP, and because you spend no obols on healing, you always have cash to spend on other things at shops or wells.
But tuning that down to LC2 or something and putting those points into something else might not be a bad idea when learning. Or maybe even LC0.
Kinda hard for me to gauge at this point to be honest.
ornate dust
@mossy zinc which keepsake are you using?
hollow lynx
played chaos shield and i timed out in tartarus ๐
honest kernel
Is Version 1.35966 the latest version?
tidal flame
gotta say Hestia on EM4 is actually really unfun
the auto aim on Hestia keeps targeting the pots
grizzled jewel
I haven't tried anything very high heat yet. I'm trying to figure out what's reasonable without getting TOO difficult. So far I'm mostly using Calisthenics and Damage Control, since I focus on rapid hitting, the latter doesn't really do much.
honest charm
the auto aim on Hestia keeps targeting the pots
@tidal flame sounds like someone isn't using the SUPERIOR control setup of controller + mouse
@grizzled jewel you should try Extreme Measures for fun, interesting new fights
and Forced Overtime and/or Tight Deadline if you want to get better at the game
grizzled jewel
I've done EM1 and EM2, I'm dreading EM3.
burnt ravine
It's more fun and also prepares you for higher heat fairly well
honest charm
EM3 is also fun
burnt ravine
Forced overtime isthe real challenge imo
Tight deadline 1 is totally free heat now though
The rework made tight deadline sooo much easier. The only tougher part is potentially EM4 since ||third phase and regen make the fight longer||
honest charm
TD2 has finally become the free heat I always pretended it was
burnt ravine
TD1 is practically unnoticeable
worldly ridge
What does it mean by โno bounties available (for now)โ? I just hit 20 heat for bow. Do I have to get 20 heat for every weapon for more bounties to unlock?
burnt ravine
Oh, I didn't know bounties only go to 20
wicked sparrow
Yeah, they didn't want to lock things behind too much difficulty.
gloomy geyser
what's an easy 8 heat run? 2 on extreme measures + max forced overtime?
stoic meteor
EM2 + TD2 should always be on Imo. If you're not used to fast runs yet though, maybe TD1. Then toss on Middle Management (sometimes you don't get minibosses iirc), and fill the rest if needed with single points.
Like a point into Hard Labor, or Convenience Fee, etc.
mossy zinc
Don't know why EM2 should always be on. 
Base Hydra is pretty free, EM2 requires you to actually pay attention to a lot of things.
honest charm
definitely should have it off at least until you get that cute nickname
mossy zinc
Thanks for calling my name cute.
@gloomy geyser I recommend you just try out all kinds of pacts and find what you're comfortable with or what's the most fun. "Difficulty" depends on so many factors.
For example, Tight Deadline at any rank can be either free heat or make the run impossible depending on your skill, experience, and playstyle.
shell imp
is EM4 worth it? I know you have to take EM3, which has ended many of my foolish runs, but what about the last one?
its like 10 heat already, just from EM
honest charm
if it's fun, it's worth it
mossy zinc
If it ends your runs, it's probably not worth it over things that don't end your run.
Unless you prefer the challenge.
honest charm
try it and see for yourself
shell imp
i already fought through it, but it was only on H15, and my build was busted, so it was not hard at all (really fun spectacle, though)
mossy zinc
@shell imp I recommend you just try out all kinds of pacts and find what you're comfortable with or what's the most fun. "Worth it" depends on so many factors.
For example, Tight Deadline at any rank can be either free heat or make the run impossible depending on your skill, experience, and playstyle.
honest charm
lol
mossy zinc
shell imp
i honestly expected EM4 to be completely insane
mossy zinc
I haven't unlocked EM4 yet.
But my recommendation would be to just practice the fight over and over until you're confident in it.
Same with any other pacts or pact combinations that you're not confident in beating.
shell imp
its not that different from vanilla, just has a few more tricks. Its not like EM3, where one of them has a totally different moveset
forest vortex
Haven't been here for a long time, may I ask what's the current Heat record?
shell imp
max possible heat is, what, 63 now?
mossy zinc
54 unrouted from before 1.0. No idea in 1.0.
There was a 57 that was routed all the way through Elysium if you care for routed runs.
Which had a build you'd never see on an unrouted 50+ run and lots of free rooms.
forest vortex
What was the build?
honest charm
Which had a build you'd never see
on an unrouted 50+ run and lots of free rooms.
chaos shield, epic thunder flourish with epic jolted, and also merciful end with attack and dash
shell imp
"routed" means it was checked ahead of time?
forest vortex
Now that's super weird
mossy zinc
Also Stubborn Roots and Cold Fusion.
honest charm
"routed" means it was checked ahead of time?
routed means that literally all of rng was manipulated to the desired outcome
mossy zinc
Including chamber layout.
honest charm
nothing is actually random, so if you care and spend enough time, you can control 100% of the run
mossy zinc
Same with any other pacts or pact combinations that you're not confident in beating.
Going back to this, this way you can much better gauge what you're good at dealing with when you're at your best, knowing it's not just from lack of practice or experience.
cosmic solstice
does em4 got 2 revives?
somber rose
is EM4 worth it? I know you have to take EM3, which has ended many of my foolish runs, but what about the last one?
@shell imp If your goal is to finish a run safely I think it's not worth the points. Better to spread these points out by adding a bit more difficulty into other parts of the game rather than all of it into the same battle which is already the most dangerous part of a run.
shell imp
EM4 is like this: ||Hades gains a new attack, where he throws his Spear and rushes to it (Similar to Achilles Aspect)||
||During second phase, he gains an ability to heal from the green urns||
||After doing his spin-to-win, he can follow it up with another one immediately||
and all of this is before ||his third phase||
oh, and just for laughs ||during Phase one, he summons minibosses, rather than just elites||
somber rose
don't forget his ||call of cerberus||
shell imp
oh yea, that was hilarious
somber rose
I'd rather fight normal Hades with extra heat points in his speed/dmg/life over EM4. EM4 is just for bragging rights.
mossy zinc
Well, this channel is for bragging rights, so that checks out.
Joking but also not joking lol.
Challenge is fun.
somber rose
they knew exactly who they designed it for... ๐
shell imp
so TD1 is now basically a freebie, right? I tried it, and even just playing regularly, without regard to time, i finished with plenty of time to spare
mossy zinc
So is TD2.
somber rose
TD2 makes me nervous if I don't get a good start
mossy zinc
I don't remember the last time I needed 28+ minutes for a run.
shell imp
it seems like 32 heat should be much easier to accomplish for a weakling like me, with all this extra heat options
mossy zinc
I think it's a problem that Tight Deadline ranks 1 and 2 are so easy now.
shell imp
3 heat for free?
tawny mural
How do you get max extreme meassure?
It's not an option for me to purchase at the contractor: do I need some kind of event?
somber rose
How do you build shield to clear fast enough for TD2?
shell imp
||finish one run after the epilogue||
tawny mural
Ive finished it twice now after the actual ending being added
shell imp
hmm, no idea then. I was able to get it right away
mossy zinc
Well, my thinking is more it's either you beat the run in 20 minutes for TD3 now, which can be very hard (e.g., my 52 Heat clear was 21m 06s), or you pick TD2 and there's no timer pressure at all.
shell imp
maybe you also have to clear at least once with EM3?
tawny mural
hmm
mossy zinc
If the first two ranks are completely free, and then the third is suddenly very tight, that's not good balance.
tawny mural
I havnt beaten it with em3 since the ending came out - I supose that makes sense
also, im wearing adamant arrowhead trinket, yet the very first boon of my run is from poseidon
where do I report bugs or such?
mossy zinc
@somber rose Beowulf, Infernal Soul, Heartbreak Flourish, Passion Flare. Aim for Zeus' Aid and Smoldering from Asphodel on.
somber rose
is it because of the fish event?
tawny mural
fish event?
somber rose
with poseidon there was this fishing thing
tawny mural
maybe it's intentional, idk - just seems kind of odd
somber rose
where the game enforced a 1st room poseidon boon just to do the fishing event
mossy zinc
If it's base shield you're talking about, just build for Merciful End.
So Curse of Agony + Divine Dash, then get their Duo Boon.
static plover
according to patch notes Merciful end had prereq changes
somber rose
If it's base shield you're talking about, just build for Merciful End.
@mossy zinc i don't mind the aspect, I just want one that works without requiring some rare and specific boon. So Beowulf is the go-to choice now?
twilit oxide
y you need Athena's attack/special at least to be able to find duo. but dash still procks ME
mossy zinc
Curse of Agony does a lot of damage either way. The Duo is extra.
Well, then just get her Flourish, too.
static plover
because (imo) merciful end in blood price and before at least on fists was the build to go for
somber rose
what's passion flare? the cast?
static plover
(pre 1.0) ares attack, athena dash and artemis special (if you really wanted overkill), then add on merficul end and deadly reversal would melt everything
deadly reversal got a change too according to patch notes
somber rose
what about spear? which aspect is the easiest to get a good build for?
shell imp
I have grown very fond of Achilles
static plover
I know precisely nothing on building spear 
shell imp
since it can be a good cast build, but can also have a good dash-attack, or just good attack if you get Flurry
somber rose
what are the go-to casts to use in cast builds? Athena and Aphro? (And Dio with Hera bow specifically)
mossy zinc
Crush Shot for Hera.
shell imp
Crush Shot rarity scaling was fixed, right?
mossy zinc
Fixed? It got nerfed a bit. Should still be good.
shell imp
for cast builds, I pick Athena and Dio mostly. Unless Im going for Hunting Blades
static plover
Crush Shot (Aphrodite): reduced scaling from Poms
mossy zinc
Cast builds are a niche at high heat. There's no real established meta for it.
shell imp
I was talking about rarity scaling, i.e. Epic should be 40% better than common as it is with other casts
Crush was 90 base, then 99 at rare, and 108 at Epic
compared to something like Athena, which went 85 -> 102 -> 119
shell imp
good. It was making me not want to use it
it was a bit wonky with Hera
with the cast not hitting
mossy zinc
I never had any issues with it on Hera.
It's been talked about a few times on here. Overshooting makes it miss. You just want to quick-release your shots, so the arrow doesn't shoot through the target.
shell imp
why do you recommend Crush Shot for Hera, over Dio or Athena?
mossy zinc
No need to Power Shot, just release asap without falling short of your target.
shell imp
also, do you consider Achilles to be a Caster build?
shell imp
i meant, in the same sense as Hera would be viewed as a Caster
i.e. effective choice if you want to focus on cast
shell imp
the 150% bonus for casts is the highest you can get from anything else. Poseidon is only 50%, and Chaos gives around 60% with a good boon
Pierced Butterfly gets to maybe 30, depending on how pro you are
mossy zinc
I recommend Crush Shot for Hera because that's what @proud jay recommends, and he knows the aspect well.
It's also the one I've always used with it, and it worked very well for me.
shell imp
It certainly delivers, but I would put on the same tier as Dio and Athena
mossy zinc
Eris gives +75% damage.
shell imp
oh, i forgot Eris
mossy zinc
Not a fan of Trippy Shot on it.
shell imp
It certainly delivers, but I would put on the same tier as Dio and Athena
@shell imp i.e. good
mossy zinc
It doesn't lodge, so it doesn't drop when you kill, so you can't spam it as much.
shell imp
Trippy is a bit worse on regular mobs, thats for sure
can't benefit from Exit Wounds, either
mossy zinc
Trippy Shot gets better with Duo Boons.
But you can't rely on that at high heat.
You want something that packs a punch from the start.
shell imp
Back when Dual Cast was an Artemis boon, there was a bug with Trippy that made it OP
mossy zinc
Especially now if you're running TD3. Gotta finish in under 20 minutes, after all.
shell imp
the second projectile dealt full damage, instead of 20%
so I had 4k damage Hera shots because of it
ah.....good times
also, why does Poseidon seem awful at everything except call and farming?
and maybe some Duos
mossy zinc
He has great passives, his cast is great, and his Flourish damage is actually pretty good.
Also, Tidal Dash played a big part in my 52 clear. That's a great dash.
shell imp
ok, i take it back. His dash is good
i remember runs where i would literally clear a room with just the dash
because that was better DPS than my weapon
mossy zinc
Flood Shot sucks in Asphodel and against bosses. But it's amazing at clearing mobs elsewhere.
And if you get Blizzard Shot, it will shred through bosses, anyway.
And be okay in Asphodel, though still not amazing. But that's just Asphodel.
You often only have like 3 or 4 standard encounters in Asphodel, so it doesn't matter much.
shell imp
btw, what do you think of ||persephone's keepsake?||
mossy zinc
If that's new content in the spoiler tag, no idea. I haven't unlocked anything yet in 1.0.
shell imp
it is. nvm then
mossy zinc
Is it just me or does controlling Zagreus seem somehow more slippery in 1.0?
ruby cipher
don't feel much of a difference personally
mossy zinc
Hmm.
mossy zinc
Not a fan of Deflecting Hades's skulls no longer destroying them. It's a fun fight otherwise, but skull spam can be pretty annoying.
forest vortex
I just tried EM4 for the first time
Let's just say it wasn't a very pleasant surprise
||Hades: "It is just me", proceeds to summon 2 Doomstones||
frosty gyro
Do you mind putting a spoiler tag on that last line? @forest vortex I hadn't seen him do that yet.
forest vortex
ok sorry
frosty gyro
Thanks.
shell sluice
mossy zinc
TD3 now is harder than TD2 was. But TD2 now is boring.
forest vortex
Yeah TD 3 on high heat is pretty tough
warped junco
I'm looking at doing heat 32, what's generally considered the easiest set of modifiers? I'm probably using either chaos shield or rama bow
shell imp
1.0 has changed things a bit
as Nya said, TD2 is pretty forgiving, and that's already 3 heat
warped junco
Somehow I find EM3 easier than the base fight
I have no idea why
Asterius spin is annoying but I find the chariot overall easier than normal theseus
hollow lynx
because theseus basically does nothing except be annoying and take off acorn hits during EM
shell imp
his spear throw isnt really a problem even in base fight
hollow lynx
he makes an active effort in non em
shell imp
but Asterius having a shockwave when he jumps is annoying for melee characters
and of course, beefier HP
warped junco
I took off EM3 for a low heat run and promptly lost all my defiance to theseus lol
mossy zinc
EM3 becomes a real problem once you add FO2 and other pacts.
shell imp
oh yea, you haven't lived till you danced with those guys on Forced Overtime
tiny burrow
muted lily
15% epic chance or 10% leg/duo. which is better?
warped junco
Holy crap, I got an incredible seed, played the best hades of my life, and got through the entire thing without using a single death defied
Epic aphrodite special first boon, demeter attack, chill on cast, and athena cast all in tartarus
tardy path
Nice!
honest kernel
frame rate feels like it went up by a bunch maybe thats why he feels slippery
proud jay
boy oh boy is EM4 tough
misty bough
are the ||new keepsakes|| any good for 32+ heat, i feel like the ||pom flower|| may be useful as a stage 2 item. so you would have god, ||pom flower||, acorn, acorn but idk
tidal flame
yeah that would be nice if you get what you want in Tartarus which can very well happen.
if the run goes well I can go god/purse/acorn/acorn
proud jay
i still have a feeling it won't beat 150 gold
tidal flame
but maybe the new thing if you have very few boons to warrant the upgrades hit the correct boon
hollow lynx
aspho is the absolute last place i'd use ||pom flower|| because of how short it is
proud jay
@hollow lynx yeah that's the issue i have with it too
tidal flame
that's 2 level, if you are lucky you can see Eurydice too
hollow lynx
i can't even guarantee that i complete a 4 encounter chaos curse in aspho lol
tidal flame
but yeah, 95% of the time ill just go with purse if the run goes well
misty bough
yeah cause usually i do god/purse/acorn/acorn or god/god/acorn/acorn but idk if using the ||flower|| is worth cause it is a nice ability if you got a good setup
tidal flame
honestly that in Styx is tempting
hollow lynx
||pom flower|| seems like a keepsake that rewards keeping it on the entire run, like butterfly and plume
hollow lynx
which, unfortunately, doesn't make it too viable for high heat stuff
tidal flame
especially considering your acorn can get wreck by the new EM4
hollow lynx
this is why i bring spearpoint into em4 :V
proud jay
spearpoint isn't that good with HL5 though
misty bough
maybe its a first stage item. like you go ||flower||, purse, acorn,acorn. and you just build around the first god you see
tidal flame
I mean technically 2 random levels >> purse on high heat due to CF thoughts?
hollow lynx
you can effectively get two procs of ||flower|| in two chambers by going nectar twice lol
tidal flame
I will just put it as a situational thing as purse or... collar in Asphodel
proud jay
well i beat 45 heat EM4... after a bunch attempts using temp save for dad fight
FO2 makes it really tough
AP2 makes even less sense now because you need a lot of dps
tidal flame
ngl it took me like 6-7 tries before I took down EM4 FO2 TD1 (so I don't have to do timer rooms)
and that's like sub 20 heat lol
trim sigil
What is the new heat maximum, with all those funny additions?
lavish cliff
I believe itโs 63
tidal flame
let's see +1 heat from TD, +4 from EM. Old max heat was 58 so the new max heat is 63. Math checks out unless I am missing something.
tidal flame
oof
proud jay
welp it's actually doable though
tidal flame
what weapon? if you want to share
proud jay
the most broken one atm
tidal flame
still zero clue ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
proud jay
eris rail
not necessarily the easiest, but has the most damage potential imo
also i even had hazard bomb xd
tidal flame
that's... surprising. it used to be bottom tier to me. the new update brings it up to A- tier personally. I should look more into it
hollow lynx
what did you build it with?
hollow lynx
very nice
proud jay
eris was already one of the better weapons in blood price
i cleared 48 with it and attempted 50 quite a lot
hollow lynx
eh, i wanted to like it but i found the damage increase just a little too low
now i really love it
proud jay
it increases all your damage, which makes a huge difference
so things like call, jolted etc
proud jay
huh?
hollow lynx
i was mainly using it for hangover
proud jay
yeah i think i used dio for 48 heat in blood price
give up doesn't bring me back to house of hades
wonder if i messed something up with my save files when practising EM4 fight
tidal flame
Interesting. Some people also reported that.
I kinda dismissed that as user error but it seems like an 
problem now.
proud jay
verifying game files fixed it
uncut wigeon
Appatently they nerfrd Achilles spear too
proud jay
it's the same as far as i can tell
balmy vapor
Never play this game on normal mode... is personal liability really makes a lot of difference??
Want to start the game in normal to get rid of that status but I don't want to play again from scratch
stoic meteor
iirc Personal Liability only triggers after you take massive damage quickly, and it automatically gives you like a 1 second shield. It's not a mini-shield after taking any source of damage. I personally don't notice it often, so no, I'd say it is not a lot of difference though someone can disagree.
tidal flame
yeah. there is one niche case that it can save you from Asterius spin on EM3 and sometimes Hades lasers. But in general, Personal Liability does not make that big of a difference imo.
balmy vapor
How about normal mob when they attack you together
Is that count?? especially if you charge in the middle of them with melee weapon
tidal flame
I mean it should but I have never said to myself wow thank god Personal Liability was there to save my butt. The shield almost never proc against mobs for me so ยฏ_(ใ)_/ยฏ
bright crescent
you can trigger personal liability really easily if you dash into a witch big ball
dont ask how i know
frosty gyro
I mean, it's pretty obvious how you know. But I can confirm that you can also trigger it easily with reckless, unskillful behaviour around other enemies.
bright crescent
but yeah otherwise it really doesnt pop up often
usually you spend a dd first before that happens
especially on high heat runs
autumn sable
i disagree that personal liability doesn't make much of a difference
it's the difference between a completed run and a lost run in quite a few of the 40+ recorded runs
it's hard to notice when you play normally on a normal file
but when heat stacks up and you are only allowed to take so much damage, taking an unnecessary amount extra damage really adds up
balmy vapor
Is there a way to turn off this hell's mode... I don't think I have the courage to continue lol
tidal flame
no, unfortuantely
bright crescent
youโll have to make a new save file
alternatively im pretty sure save file editors exist which can turn it off but idk if theyve updated for 1.0 yet
autumn sable
the third alternative being just d/ling a save file or asking for one from someone with a completed file, you just lose your own personal victory screen if you care
short comet
So what's the opinion on the new trinkets? ||Seems like a ton of free upgrades is pretty good, but I dunno if it beats fishing for certain gods||
crystal iron
for whatever reason, ||it feels like the random poms nearly always hit the dash, like 3/4 times||
short comet
In a not super high heat run (by which I mean max new EM) I'm currently at ||level 6 dash and level 3 highest on anything else||
proud jay
i'll second that personal liability procs quite a bit at high heat
mossy zinc
Yeah, I've been telling people they greatly underestimate the impact of Personal Liability at high heats. Everyone always calling it "free heat" without ever touching it. Nah.
tidal flame
PI matters vs bosses. I don't see it saving anyone in mobs rooms. Not for me.
ember bronze
Not only that, but playing Hell Mode means you're stuck with Jury Summons and Calisthenics
If you're going for 40+, that probably changes nothing
tidal flame
On high enough heat those are implied.
ember bronze
But for like 32, you might easily not want those
Yeah, just figure 32 is the biggest goal for a lot of people
uncut wigeon
High Heat is a research game.
tidal flame
Well thing is a lot of people here have a habit of defaulting to 40+, which makes conversation a bit... confusing. The person came in asking about PI to start a new save. To me, that yells sub 40, which in itself has different implications.
mossy zinc
JS1 and CP1 definitely matter for high heat. Even more now that TD has changed.
uncut wigeon
Once you go above 32, from what I've read here, its about optimizing things.
That requires a lot of setting up seeds.
mossy zinc
Seeds are mainly for AP2 runs.
ember bronze
Yeah, I guess I'm not just particularly interested in anything not played authentically roguelike-style
which means, among other things, AP2 is way too punishing for its heat
tidal flame
"authentically roguelike-style" doesn't exist in a format like this though
uncut wigeon
Which is also why nerfing weapons because of high heat strats was a silly thing to dk
High heat is pretty niche
tidal flame
What stops me from suiciding a run to get the start I want and call it authentic because I didn't seed?
ember bronze
I think you're free to put as much as time/effort as you want into restarting
(I mean, obv. you're free to save a seed too)
But I was sort of expressing a wish that nonrandom run starts weren't really a focus of strategy discussion
uncut wigeon
๐ค
ember bronze
Or were a separate channel or something--"seeded run planning"
tidal flame
My wish is that people just "standardize" to some kind of mod
Well funnily enough, initially there is no high heat channel xD
ember bronze
Yeah, it's nice to have it
uncut wigeon
Which high heat runs have you attempted/done?
tidal flame
Who are you asking?
uncut wigeon
Hamlette
ember bronze
32
uncut wigeon
Have you gone for 40+ yet?
ember bronze
not yet
tidal flame
Are you interested in doing 40+? We have like 0 of those recorded for 1.0. you can be one of the first!
ember bronze
maybe--might be hard to get there yet
Talking about 40 or really any amount of heat seems fine for the channel of course
the only passing comment I made that started all this was runs with RNG manipulation
austere cape
has anyone actualy done GY EM4, and have tips. I got to the surface, but damn dad's a codgers
mossy zinc
Seeds aren't really discussed that much. They're expected at like 45+, though.
A lot of aspects up there are not gonna go anywhere without a good hammer, so you might as well just restart if you get nothing good.
tidal flame
There is a mod to pick starting boon to save time (and that's all it does). Not sure if you are ever interested.
proud jay
i have a recorded 45 heat EM4 run, just need to upload it
kinda gives away the strategy to a somewhat consistent 40+ in general
proud jay
actually the strategy is as simple as RI0 + DF
tidal flame
Maybe wait a week? Both for that secret and spoiler potential?
proud jay
there's plenty of EM4 material out already
tidal flame
Routine Inspection 0 and Deadth Fire Grasp?
proud jay
uhm
shell imp
it feels like Act 1 got longer, while Act 2 is shorter
austere cape
Act 1? you mean Tartarus and Asphodel?
shell imp
yes
proud jay
there has always been a lot of variance, so it might feel like that sometimes
austere cape
they've always been 13/9 rooms long
shell imp
it took me about 7 minutes for Tartarus, and less than 4 for Asphodel
and it's not like im rushing
its been like this for several runs
proud jay
can't really look at it like that
chaos, story and mid-shops basically skip rooms
even depends on what enemies you get
shell imp
rooms seem to get cleared so much faster. But that might be because I have a lot more boons at htis point?
btw, I understand that you recommend Crush Shot for Hera. Is it because it drops immediately after use, rather than sticking in?
proud jay
i'd probably suggest phalanx shot (athena) now
since crush shot got reduced pom scaling in 1.0
and crush shot is slightly buggy
austere cape
+1 to phalanx shot
shell imp
Phalanx was my default at this point
austere cape
it seriously chunks, and if you get Parting Shot it's very good
shell imp
though Dio does good work too
proud jay
i did a 44 heat clear with crush shot in blood price though
austere cape
Dionysus is great, if you get scintillating, but ice wine is underwhelming
proud jay
ice wine gets actual scaling though, kinda imagined it would be the better duo
austere cape
although, if you go Dio and get Blackout + Hangover Attack, it might just be good on its own ๐
shell imp
whats teh generally best aspect for Spear? I have grown fond of Achilles
proud jay
i did 45 heat EM4 with achilles
highest heat spear has been done with Hades aspect
highest heat RI4 clear has been done with zag aspect (exploding launcher)
shell imp
Exploding Launcher is incompatible with Achilles, right?
proud jay
yeah can't get it with achilles
shell imp
that would explain why I havent seen it in forever
I like Hades, but it doesn't work with Flurry Jab, which is a favorite of mine
proud jay
yeah im also a big fan of flurry jab
Hades desperately wants serrated point
or exploding launcher, i guess
shell imp
Serrated is the other hammer i try for
shell imp
it says something that they nerfed it further
proud jay
i would've liked to see them buff other hammer upgrades instead
shell imp
i'm with that. Too many hammers feel just worse, and not just in spear
Flurry for the Bow also seems the best hammer by a country mile
especially with the buff to Bow damage
daring hedge
nothing like losing two runs in a row with zeus shield at 45 heat to hades while he's at less than 10% health both times
proud jay
solution: demeter legendary
tardy path
Sounds fair
mossy zinc
@fading star do you see any good reason to use Zag Aspect over the others now that it's been nerfed?
Malphon.
foggy ruin
man I wish they didn't nerf zag malphon like that
why not just think of another gimmick for zag sword
or replace the loss of attack speed with another one for zag fists
bronze viper
I thought Zag aspect was a fake nerf. As in they just clarified the tooltip.
mossy zinc
No, the Attack Speed only applied to the very first punch.
But now the first punch is as fast as the other aspects.
bronze viper
That can't be that significant to make the aspect now unappealing when it was appealing before.
mossy zinc
It's a pretty big nerf when using it with Divine Strike.
bronze viper
Hmm, yeah I'll take your word for it. I virtually always use Demeter anyway. Haven't tried or unlocked GIlgamesh yet.
mossy zinc
Basically what I wrote in #hades-feedback. Way more difficult to Deflect things on reaction.
I've always felt that difference especially in the Hades fight.
We always assumed that the Attack Speed buff applied to all hits. So knowing that it doesn't, I don't see much reason to pick it, to be honest.
20% Dodge chance is basically +25 max HP at the start of a run (if you start with 100 HP) and +50~62.5 when you get to Hades with 200~250 max HP.
fading star
I'm going to review footage of Zagreus Twin Fists attack speed vs the 1.0 release version. I feel like the attack speed was on the entire sequence but I want to make sure of it before I go off on a QQ rage of my favorite aspect being nerfed to oblivion if it truly wasn't
Without knowing what the new aspect does I would say Demeter is the strongest aspect right now
mossy zinc
Well, patch notes say it only affected the first hit. Either way, it's kinda lame.
Yeah, I haven't unlocked the hidden aspect yet, either.
Demeter > Talos > Zagreus.
That's what I think.
fading star
I know. I just remember that when I was playing Zagreus aspect a bunch that I kind of new the timing of the hit sequence and after unlocking the Twin Fists I punched the Hades out of Skelly and my reaction was, "whoa, did they nerf the whole attack speed?" But that feeling might just be inception so I have to make sure
Patch notes could be mistaken after all, hahahaha
mossy zinc
Yeah, it always felt quite a bit faster. But that could have been just from that first hit being faster, I guess.
fading star
Oh, detective Toaster will get to the bottom of it. I just need to find my spyglass and voila, I can find EVERYTHING (except that one sock that vanished after the latest laundry load)
mossy zinc
If you do that, I'll promote you to sergeant.
fading star
Yay! Promotions = earlier retirement! I'm totally invested now
mossy zinc
rough ermine
heard somebody said EM4 pairs really badly with other heat options
and yep it definitely does
mossy zinc
Setup?
rotund coyote
general picks on the pact
mossy zinc
Well, TD3 now is harder than TD2 used to be.
Bow is stronger, though.
There are some minor changes, but nothing drastic.
crystal iron
Also EM3 is now 6 heat and not 5
rotund coyote
also, what qualifies as "high" heat, I know Nyaa is an absolute gamer and is at 52 heat, but I doubt everyone here is that level
mossy zinc
Well, there's no definite number. Typically people refer to 32+ or 40+.
People like Tailesque and me who've done 50+, for example, would probably mean 40+ when we say "high heat".
rotund coyote
TD is harder? I thought the flexible timing of its new version would be easier on you guys
mossy zinc
Whereas somebody else who's just getting into high heats or has only done like low 40s would probably mean 32+.
hollow lynx
getting only 5 minutes per biome runs into the same issue of getting very low times in elysium/styx
mossy zinc
It's not more flexible, really. You might end up with more time in Elysium, but before you had a lot of high-heat runs that were nearing 24 minutes completion time with TD2 on.
That would be 4 minutes past TD3.
That's why I want a different rank progression for TD.
hollow lynx
i got 4-sacked twice in a row with td3 on ๐
mossy zinc
I dunno, the progression seems like a joke now. TD1 is laughably easy, TD2 is also boring, then TD3 is suddenly super tight and would end like half the runs on the high-heat board that were done in Blood Price.
rotund coyote
Yeah I saw your suggestion in Feedback Nyaa
would you say TD2 is still free for good players?
woop
rough ermine
I dunno, the progression seems like a joke now. TD1 is laughably easy, TD2 is also boring, then TD3 is suddenly super tight and would end like half the runs on the high-heat board that were done in Blood Price.
rotund coyote
you answered it
mossy zinc
TD2 is a joke, yes.
rough ermine
I think that is an issue yeah
hollow lynx
28 minutes is very, very easy
rotund coyote
Would you prefer the spread to something like 25-23-21
rough ermine
28 > 24 > 20 is good enough I think
trim sigil
Given that some time is unavoidable, making the system from 36-28-20 to 36-28-24 makes way more sense
rotund coyote
most of my runs are about 24ish I wanna say
hollow lynx
td3 with em4 especially is brutal bc of how long the dang fight is
hollow lynx
unlucky sack rng means you're timing out no matter what
rotund coyote
TD3 with EM4 seems impossible unless you have excessive damage
mossy zinc
Hard to say what you're messing up. Probably a combination of not being aggressive enough and weak builds.
Plus, just general experience.
rotund coyote
yeah I used to average around 28 and now its coming down
rough ermine
also why does my game allow me to savescum now when I press give up
did that not used to be a thing
rotund coyote
wdym?
rough ermine
and just sends you back to the house
mossy zinc
Give Up always did that.
rotund coyote
yeah Give Up always keeps same seed
hollow lynx
give up has always done that
mossy zinc
Restarting at the same room only happens if you have a temp save set as a permanent save.
mossy zinc
Unless it's the House of Hades. That's your permanent save.
mossy zinc
I dunno. That's something for #h1-tech-support, anyway.
rough ermine
yeah
I was talking about that because I'm not sure if that was supposed to happen
if it is supposed to then I won't post it, but from what I'm seeing, probably not
rough ermine
how do you even deal with fast shieldbros (BP) with FO on
they pretty much almost instantly turn around and start attacking you again
fading star
Okay, after doing a side x side and frame x frame review of pre-1.0 Zagreus aspect Twin Fists and post-1.0 Zagreus Twin Fists I can confirm the patch notes are 100% accurate
The first attack in pre-1.0 Zagreus Twin Fists was noticeably faster and gave (at least me) a false sense that the whole series was faster than the other aspect
rough ermine
ok scratch greatshields
fading star
So. That being said Zagreus Aspect are still really good. I might even cast my vote to say it got a passive-indirect buff due to the Hermes dodge boon getting a 33% nerf but hey, I love the Twin Fists so I do have my biases
rough ermine
I refuse to believe fast BP + FO is playtested for every enemy that can get it
tidal flame
The truth is it likely wasn't
WE tested it
For EA and we reported a bunch of unfair combinations and the devs listened
I'm not sure if you have seen the horror that was old Bruiser perk.
rough ermine
I haven't touched FO and BP much at at all, been playing EA since Long Winter
I've been doing the other "stats tweak" conditions
mostly
what's the speed up perk equivalent to in terms of FO level
lavish cliff
Fox what was the old briuser perk?
honest charm
enemies had armor
a lot of armor
like
more armor than bosses have health in some cases
lavish cliff
Ah lol
the enemies still have a lot of armor but not boss level anymore
Does anyone know exactly how forced overtime and the speeder benefit work? Like how much speed does a FO1 actually give an enemy?
Getting speeder elites with no forced overtime seems like it's faster than Forced overtime 1, but maybe not forced overtime 2?
rough ermine
does Speeder and FO stack mult or add-itively
mossy zinc
Additively. But they did some fine-tuning here and there to ensure that most enemy attacks have some minimum amount of startup that you can react to even at FO1 and FO2.
Based on feedback and probably their own testing.
You'll need to know enemy AI so that you know when to look for attacks from Speeders in order to i-frame on reaction.
Or to dash preemptively.
If you're using FO2 + BP.
But if you don't understand the AI, you'll just dash around them without triggering their attack, which means you don't get a window to attack them safely and dispose of them fast.
Like, some enemies you need to get close to or allow to get close, and only then you dash away. And the longer you run without getting close to them, the longer they'll just run after you, and you just waste time. And if you dash way too early, they might catch up and hit you before your dash is off cooldown.
rough ermine
that's easier said than done when there are multiple of them with desynced cycles I think
syncing them up is again, also doable but easier said than done
mossy zinc
Well, yeah. Never said it was easy.
I get hit a lot more lately, I think, than when I still practiced for at least a couple hours every day.
rough ermine
on the topic of FO2 Speeders
wringers look absolutely hilarious
with the inherent speed buff on top of it
mossy zinc
They're not too bad once you get used to them.
rough ermine
not that it's hard, it just looks super funny
mossy zinc
Since they're so very predictable.
mossy zinc
But getting grabbed feels just worse because of that.
rough ermine
there's this one time I got grabbed and then beamed by the other BP perk
losing like half my hp
daring hedge
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/654076105321480226/757693327343747193/20200921145829_1.jpg there we go
mossy zinc
Very nice.
daring hedge
lol yeah
tidal flame
no EM4, does it really count though?
daring hedge
you're right, totally invalidated
mossy zinc
TD is somehow worse than before. TD2 is way too easy but only counts for 3 heat now, and TD3 is too tight.
tidal flame
what's your hot take on EM4?
daring hedge
there's just no way for zeus shield to do TD3 at high heat unless you get all important zeus T2s for the special extremely early and then splitting bolt and cold fusion or something
tidal flame
I think it's spicy as hell
mossy zinc
Yet my TD feedback was downvoted a lot lol. https://discordapp.com/channels/456889434672201729/525022184280948736/757186533701976135
daring hedge
it's honestly pretty scary
mossy zinc
TD3 would just remove most of the 40+ clears from the Blood Price list lol.
Because most of them took over 20 minutes.
daring hedge
EM4 with FO2 and HL5 feels just incredibly unforgiving, which is fair because it's supposed to come across that way I take it
tidal flame
the only that gives me hope is that the 57 heat run was 18 min something
yes ik it's routed, but technically possible
tidal flame
isn't that what we are doing with AP2?
tidal flame
no I get that
mossy zinc
There's obviously some chance involved, but you can do a lot to mitigate the risks like avoiding unnecessary boons etc.
daring hedge
the fact that it's routed is what worries me, though. like, a run planned out from the start all the way through elysium and still only two minutes from taking 20 minutes. for someone like me who doesn't route, i don't know about how much hope that gives for TD3 50+ runs without routing
especially with more awkward aspects like zeus, etc.
honest charm
I think he's saying to bash ourselves against the AP2 TD3 brick wall until we get literally perfect builds
someone, eventually, will actually do that
which is hilarious
daring hedge
sometimes that's really how it is ๐
daring hedge
lol
tidal flame
it's a catch 22 xD
mossy zinc
I wouldn't have any confidence in beating TD3 at 50+ with even Nemesis or Malphon.
daring hedge
and max jury summons with a little calisthenics on top as they are very likely to be at that heat? oof
no thanks
mossy zinc
The upside is that TD3 is 2 more heat than TD2 used to be.
mossy zinc
rough ermine
ah
daring hedge
i was like 15 health away from also dying to tiny vermin lol
rough ermine
i was like 15 health away from also dying to tiny vermin lol
hey at least you lived
I died
mossy zinc
15 HP. The difference between a champion and a dead Zagreus.
rough ermine
isn't 15 hp like the difference of a HL5 lout charge
mossy zinc
I'm pretty sure they do 32 with HL5.
rough ermine
I thought louts do 7 no?
normally I mean
huh that still isn't 15
don't mind me then
mossy zinc
mossy zinc
Maybe it was 16 with HL5. I dunno, I don't get hit.
honest kernel
o great zeus shield run
mossy zinc
That sounds like the beginning of a song or poem.
honest kernel
should ask orpheus about that
honest charm
Toffel's back ๐
tidal flame
@honest charm what about her back?
honest kernel
hi
mossy zinc
@honest kernel came back to steal all your high heat records.
Oh wait, you two don't have any.
honest charm
oh lol
she was here all along, I'm just blind and/or absent all the time
honest kernel
the bullying already starts ๐
tidal flame
all of us have exactly 0 record for 1.0
honest charm
@mossy zinc I'm busy doing other stuff
tidal flame
so temper your enthusiasm
honest kernel
my 41 heat is worth nothing now that all the cool kids do 45
tidal flame
I did 42 so don't say that
honest charm
I know I've said it before, but I'll do high heat once I have a good save file
mossy zinc
That's not true.
honest charm
I'm working on fresh file runs rn
honest kernel
oh yeah isnt preserving seeds not a thing anymore now
bc you cant reset rooms anymore
honest charm
@honest kernel your 41 heat run is 100% worth something
mossy zinc
@honest kernel you're still the top 2 female Hades player.
honest kernel
๐
mossy zinc
Can't reset rooms?
mossy zinc
I have a Twin Shot seed atm that I've been running a few times already.
So it's definitely possible.
honest kernel
yeah I thought of the thing where you can restart a room if you didnt get hit
but quiting should still preserve the starting room
honest charm
why would you want to?
mossy zinc
Yeah, current chamber is just your temp save. Perma save is still in the House.
honest kernel
I keep forgetting to hand out nectar and ambrosia to the new gods u can bond with bc im in speed mode all the time
honest charm
same
mossy zinc
Lol I keep forgetting to give Demeter Ambrosia, too.
mossy zinc
And most of the time I skip her boons anyway.
honest kernel
hmm I see
demeters bond is locked behind story progression anyways I think
but I think her boons are very cool
hollow lynx
dusa emoji
mossy zinc
Her boon tree has some traps if you run AP2 with UC and LC4.
Can't sell Rare Crop, so that can screw you over.
Nourished Soul does nothing, and you can't sell it.
mossy zinc
In comparison, Lady Artemis only has 6 t1 boons, only her call is kinda meh, so there's a good chance you get what you want.
honest kernel
frozen touch being added made it even worse I think
mossy zinc
And if you get unlucky with an exchange, it's typically not so bad if it's from her.
I kinda like Frozen Touch a lot.
But it adds even more to the pool, yeah.
fallow stream
Frozen touch can be useful in niche builds.
If you need something to enable privileged status, it's one of the best choices for curses
It's also flippin awesome if you go with a vengeful mood build, especially if you also take Arctic blast
The Hades keepsake is interesting with quick favour/smoldering air and second wind on fists.
Nourished Soul does nothing, and you can't sell it.
@mossy zinc
Isn't nourished soul one of the pre reqs for winter harvest?
daring hedge
nah
daring hedge
yeah i don't believe it ever was
rotund coyote
In comparison, Lady Artemis only has 6 t1 boons, only her call is kinda meh, so there's a good chance you get what you want.
@mossy zinc is there a definitive boon tier list?
or atleast a community used one
daring hedge
it's a separate "booster" boon similar to dio's after party or positive outlook
honest charm
divine dash/hunter dash > anything else
daring hedge
where it's not connected to anything, you just take it if you want it
fallow stream
divine dash/hunter dash > anything else
@honest charm
I would also throw mistral dash in there
Close 2nd
honest charm
poseidon dash is better than mistral dash 11 times out of 9
honest charm
unblooded zag sword is the only weapon that matters
the only weapon that lets you clear on the first run
fallow stream
I couldn't stop using that POS fast enough
And when Skelly made me pour blood into it, I never forgave him
I still beat him down to this day
rough ermine
aaaaaaaaaah
I'm so mad right now
3-sack plus first tunnel vermin
made me lose to TD on EM4
fallow stream
How do you even lose on TD anymore
rough ermine
I had a really really really slow elysium
fallow stream
I always have like 15-20 minutes in Styx
rough ermine
elysium took me 9 minutes
fallow stream
I don't get how people use Zag aspect once nemesis is available to them
It's superior in every way
rotund coyote
I have Nemesis, but I dont have any blood in it
light sedge
The move and attack speed on the Zag sword are really nice, especially if you can get Flurry Slash and Swift Strike. You should try it, it's nutty fun and broken.
rough ermine
I've gotten a lot more used to nemesis
the crit rate allows for insane dps potential
viscid fulcrum
Zag sword just seems like the best overall imo. The base benefit is just well rounded.
light sedge
I prefer the 4th aspect, but that's just me heh
wraith imp
gilgamesh is most definitely viable for high heat (40+ heat). Just cleared 43 heat. RicFlairWooooo!
daring hedge
nice, what was your build generally?
wraith imp
athena attack, ares special, athena dash, merciful doom, athena call
i walked in with 375 health (cerberus keepsake), 3 death defiances
completed in 25 minutes (needed 4 chambers in styx)
eta: one chaos boon for special that was 65% increase on attack and rending claw
given how effective merciful doom is, i think that's the best duo boon across many aspects.
i used to think it was sea storm but now i lean toward merciful doom.
btw: i think maim somehow increases meg's damage. isn't she supposed to do 2500 damage? i saw her do 3400+ damage twice in styx. common thing: i had applied maim to enemy before her attack hit. if my hunch is right, that's huge. so she does nearly as much damage as thanatos but she applies it much faster.
honest charm
it's better to have ares attack and athena special
daring hedge
ah, good ol merciful end
honest charm
dash-strikes proc merciful end instantly that way
special is relatively slow and clunky, and gets fewer doom procs per second
wraith imp
it's better to have ares attack and athena special
@honest charm
dash-strikes proc merciful end instantly that way
@honest charm to try it.
Hmmm...doesn't merciful end apply doom when an attack is deflected? in that case, wouldn't athena be better on attack since (like you said) the gilgamesh attack is faster and more likely to deflect incoming damage?
daring hedge
lysol is taking into account the fact that you had divine dash
which would work best in tandem with ares attack to constantly proc ME
with dash-strikes
wraith imp
Ah, I see.
honest charm
deflect on special is just so you can get ME at all
frozen holly
merciful end procs already existing doom
when you hit with an attack that CAN deflect
honest charm
since divine dash isn't a prereq anymore
frozen holly
you don't need to actually deflect anything
static plover
well if I understand the wording correctly, you do need to deflect in order to proc ME
frozen holly
the wording says attacks that can deflect
honest charm
@static plover no, you just need to hit with an ability that can deflect
honest charm
for a couple hundred examples of this, watch one of Vorime's fresh file runs
frozen holly
so like any of Athena's abilities essentially
honest charm
the entire run is just ME
wraith imp
so like any of Athena's abilities essentially
@frozen holly
in that case, i would just keep athena deflect on zeus shield special. that shield's rotation is pretty quick.
static plover
I assume it was blood price so vorime would hae gotten ME in tarturas as destroyed everything from there
frozen holly
yeah
honest charm
his recent First-Run is probably better though
utilizes more ME strats than just "dash-strike repeatedly", which is the most common one
static plover
side note, I'm quite happy you actually have to work a little bit to get merciful end on fists now
honest charm
now you need an athena attack or special along with the dash
1 extra step
which is actually enough most of the time
doesn't affect the sword since you want athena special anyways, but it means that you have to actually invest into getting ME if you want it
tidal flame
no more ME crutch
static plover
ares attack, athena special, athena dash --> purge athena special after ME and get arte special for same extra shenanigans that used to be fairly easy to achieve
honest charm
one extra step! ๐ฅณ
static plover
that extra step makes things like zeus and deadly reversal fists that touch more viable
honest charm
yep!
fallow stream
I would love to have the fortune of getting this build at high heat ๐คฃ I recklessly facetanked EM4 Hades with this
surreal yacht
Is Aspect of Gilgamesh + Ares Special viable at high heat
It feels broken at lower heat tbh
fallow stream
You use ares special?
I would have thought ares attack + divine dash for turbo merciful end was the way to go
static plover
with the +2 dashes (and then some if you get hermes + dashes) yeah ares attack + divine dash with a slight detour to get athena special is imo the way to go
fallow stream
Even Zeus dash + splitting bolt has serious potential with Gilgamesh
static plover
add in ruthless reflex for even more spicyness
fallow stream
The only thing I don't like about Gilgamesh is how deliberate you have to be to use the dash upper.
It's really resistant to quick button presses. Kinda clunky, and you often don't end up throwing a dash upper
static plover
though it seems ruthless reflex is almost mandatory on it
fallow stream
If you're not using ruthless reflex on Gilgamesh, youre not thinking it through
It's built for it
static plover
pretty much
fallow stream
It's not mandatory, but it's a missed opportunity otherwise
static plover
yeah, that's why I say it seems almost mandatory
because nothing is truely mandatory in Hades