yeah, it's very consistent getting some good ones off if you have even basic knowledge of enemy tendencies
#h1-high-heat-strategies
daring hedge
tidal flame
Also the attacks of high heat enemies should be more telegraphed now
autumn sable
death rattle bombers, you really have to keep track of how many dashes you have so you can immediately dash away after the upper
tidal flame
So that's great
mossy zinc
@daring hedge I always want to hear from because he's the only one doing blind runs at 40+ like me, so his experience in just making whatever he happens to get work is really helpful. (Plus, I think he's overall a better player.)
And @hallow stream and @fading star I'm very happy are sharing more of their ideas, thoughts, and experiences lately because we hadn't heard very much from them until recently in this server, and I think sharing strategies etc. helps all of us improve.
@tidal flame is there, too, for . . . moral support. 
tidal flame
mossy zinc
@tidal flame I was annoyed you cleared 32 before me, so I looked for a new challenge, saw Resqtoaster had done 40 with Malphon, and did 41 to make a statement. So, you're . . . an inspiration? 
Mascot?
daring hedge
aw thank you, i'm flattered you'd say that and that you do appreciate my thoughts on malphon stuff and all
or hades aspect thoughts after getting destroyed in elysium
mossy zinc
I was trying to figure out today how to clear my Hades save with Demeter Aspect without losing so much HP in the process. Turns out the strategy was to just wait for Explosive Upper buffs? That should probably help next time I try. 
autumn sable
lol, yes
autumn sable
gotta get some runs in before they revert it
daring hedge
autumn sable
I saw Amir looking at our banter
daring hedge
when even the high heat players talk about a hammer becoming almost overkill strong, that's when you go 
tidal flame
Hades high heat "strategies" 👀
mossy zinc
Explosive Upper might work better like this on the other aspects.
"Breaking the game" is fine, they say.
autumn sable
We’ll have to actually see how it performs in-game, really
mossy zinc
Amir said something like that in the last AMA. If everything is falling into place, and you feel like you're breaking the game, that's perfectly fine because you're playing a god, so that's what they're going for.
Well, I have a save with Explosive Upper at Hades. I'll see what's changed in a moment.
Hmm. +50% damage in an area. Maybe it will only change when I do a new run?
honest kernel
Yeah, that's been a thing for a minute.
wispy shard
So by design, it's actually better to make the player feel OP than underpowered?
mossy zinc
Ah alright then.
wispy shard
That's pretty interesting to know their perspective
autumn sable
At some point during a run
mossy zinc
Well, the "broken" runs don't happen every time.
tidal flame
It's a Rougelite afterall. It's fine to be OP once in a while, aka the God run
mossy zinc
The broken runs let us clear 40+ really lol.
tidal flame
The only thing is to make sure you don't steamroll the game every run.
autumn sable
I don’t think they want the ability to do so from out the gate with minimal investment
tidal flame
Are we doing SF argument again?
wispy shard
Yeah, it's just interesting to know that it is by design that some runs are just busted good
autumn sable
I didn’t bring SF up
wispy shard
I have no idea what that's about lmao
mossy zinc
Get used to @tidal flame using initalisms for absolutely everything.
hallow stream
@mossy zinc we're hitting the final phase of hades in the fight now. I'm starting to see the matrix
autumn sable
I intentionally brought myself short
mossy zinc
@hallow stream go get him!
hallow stream
I mean, I died
autumn sable
Lol
tidal flame
Basically back in the day we had a lot conversation on whether or not Spreadfire is OP and derservng a nerd
autumn sable
Nerd
tidal flame
But with the recent changes SF seems to be in a good place.
wispy shard
Okay, but what's the deal with Spread Fire? Is it not good?
honest kernel
Spread Fire kept its super problematic and unbalanced attack pattern and they just kneecapped the ammo.
So it's "balanced" right now.
tidal flame
SF used to be "busted" in Nighty Night
honest kernel
Unless Zag Aspect still puts you at 18 shots in which case it's still deeply unbalanced.
autumn sable
It does
honest kernel
tidal flame
If you are curious, you can check out speedruns in the Nighty Night patch to see the full power of SF.
wispy shard
Wasn't it just good before Nighty Night? What did they change that made it "OP"
mossy zinc
Spread Fire basically made most heats completely trivial as soon as you got it because the damage output was just insane. Only at high heats, the lack of stunlock was actually an issue and made it not so broken.
To be honest, Divine Strike does the same for Malphon in a lot of ways (without the crazy damage), but there's no way to balance that I believe without changing how deflect works.
tidal flame
Wasn't it just good before Nighty Night? What did they change that made it "OP"
I can't say for pre Nighty Night because I joined a bit later. I bring up Nighty Night speedruns because that's what I am familiar with.
honest kernel
It was balanced pre-Nighty Night.
No ammo change, fired five pellets that were consumed upon hitting an enemy.
mossy zinc
Although, I guess I shouldn't take my own experience with Divine Strike + Malphon and nothing else at 20 as a base line because I have a lot more experience with the weapon. So maybe for most people it wouldn't be so trivial, honestly can't tell.
honest kernel
It didn't take the best parts of Piercing and Explosive Fire and wrap them up into Dashable Nova.
wispy shard
it's not that trivial for less-good or less-experienced players for sure.
also, I have no idea what the actual change was
so I'm not sure what that means.
So it got... what, infinite piercing?
tidal flame
I think they buffed the damage, add piercing and made the 50 damage constant in a cone
tidal flame
The draw back is that the attack speed is gimped
wispy shard
er, so it's not multiple damage instances anymore, it's just one big cone shaped fat hitbox of death?
hollow lynx
yes
fading star
So the Rama bow can beat 46 heat. You have to have a pretty strict build though for it to be able to clear out Elysium with time
autumn sable
you getting closer?
autumn sable
basically got it
hallow stream
this an attack or special build?
mossy zinc
08/08/2019
- Spread Fire (Rail): removed penalty to max. ammo
03/10/2020
- Spread Fire (Rail): reworked; now fires as a single, powerful blast
fading star
Well... the second attempt I would've straight murdered him because I was doing silly damage but... had to clear ALL SIX CHAMBERS in Styx
hallow stream
5*
tidal flame
The last chamber is 6th
autumn sable
the fury knows no bounds
zinc scarab
I mean styx essentially has 20 chambers we all know this
fading star
It is a combination build. You want to be able to utilize both your special and your attack
mossy zinc
High heat players can't count, that's why we put the heat so high. We just don't know what we're doing.
autumn sable
no styx chamber bounds
wispy shard
Yeah, okay, that sounds overkill.
Maybe they should subtract one buff and call it a day, lmao
hallow stream
what does this build look like?
wispy shard
Two buffs? Yes. Three buffs? Holy crap, man.
Also, lol, wait, so they nerfed it with Dio but buffed it to the sky with damage...
tidal flame
Yee, but then again, it's OK to have OP stuff in a single player game
Hence the debate
autumn sable
You should really just check out the WR in Nighty Night patch for speedruns
mossy zinc
@fading star maybe you would have cleared that run if you'd started practicing the fight!
autumn sable
but it doesn't actually show you why it's particularly unbalanced in the context of the rest of the game
tidal flame
Sub 5 minutes right?
zinc scarab
I really think "it's okay to have op stuff in a single player game" is a ridiculous argument
fading star
You want Dio on your Special and preferably Aphro on your attack. That alone does enough damage.
autumn sable
it's mainly that you could have spreadfire and a single attack boon and you'd be set for the rest of the run
fading star
Bad Influence really helps with Elysium
wispy shard
@tidal flame I personally think that's a 'yes and no'
autumn sable
yeah, sub 5 is WR
zinc scarab
If it's supposed to be a challenging game that rewards both optimal builds and mechanical skill, it shouldn't equally or further reward random boons, hammers, items, etc. (depending on whatever game it is)
tidal flame
I'll add this addendum, just so we are clear, it's OK to have OP stuff in single player game. The issue is fine tuning how often you get it.
autumn sable
@fading star is that why breakshift is recommending dio special rama right now?
tidal flame
If you play Isaac, RoR, StS, etc. You will see that there are many things that give you a free ride. They are just rare.
mossy zinc
My issue with Spread Fire was never that it was OP but that it was . . . boring because of how OP it was for how little strategy it required to make work? I don't play Chaos Aspect really for the same reason.
wispy shard
Is that still the case though
zinc scarab
It also creates a strange split in communities where some people actually face the challenge the way the devs intended, and the rest say "just get spreadfire and mash your face against the keyboard"
autumn sable
spreadfire is still very strong, I couldn't tell you how strong in the current iteration as I haven't tried it
tidal flame
Great now we are in full blown SF debate xD
mossy zinc
Anyone actually tried 40+ with Spread Fire?
fading star
@autumn sable maybe? If I was lurked, then that would make sense. I was pretty consistent with Dio on special
wispy shard
@zinc scarab personally, I don't really care.
zinc scarab
I personally hate overpowered things in singleplayer games, and tend to go out of my way to avoid or install mods that nerf such things to a reasonable level
fading star
Zeus on special with Rama is also amazing
wispy shard
people's opinions are their opinions, as long as it doesn't make an elitist community that dictates a "right" way to play then it's not my problem
tidal flame
Then do that
autumn sable
but it lost a lot of its AoE capabilities which really helped it clear rooms
tidal flame
Everything in the game is viable
zinc scarab
I just wish things were better balanced, as I'd love to use a shotgun hammer for rail that doesn't break the game
tidal flame
You don't need SF to win, at all.
zinc scarab
that sort of thing
wispy shard
I'm not big on "high difficulty" so I don't really go for this high heat stuff
zinc scarab
Theoretically, those upgrades sound fun, i'm a fan of shotguns in like all games. Yet I don't want to break the game's difficulty by taking it. 🤷
At the moment I don't take it
wispy shard
Have you tried it the way it actually is now, though?
tidal flame
Fair enough. To me, the appeal of roguelikes is occasionally breaking the game that usually breaks you.
It's still p good
zinc scarab
Mostly just complaining that bad balancing is pushed away by so many people with the comment of "eh it's singleplayer who cares"
wispy shard
Also, if it makes Zagreus aspect worth using at all, then it's fine, because Zagreus aspect needs a reason to exist.
tidal flame
The nerf was more of a wrist slap imo
autumn sable
i didn't mind it at all, it's fun to just steamroll through on occasion
zinc scarab
Did it get nerfed?
fading star
Oh, I got through 46 heat Elysium in like 3:45 with Rama bow. That's how much damage it can put out
autumn sable
jesus
autumn sable
Wriste and I were talking about how Rama seems like it has a lot of potential
wispy shard
is GY super focused on throws still
autumn sable
I'm glad someone is putting it through the wringer
wispy shard
and does anyone use the spin anymore?
mossy zinc
Only shotguns I ever really enjoyed in video games are in Halo: Combat Evolved and in Time Splitters 2. Actually, maybe the one in Red Faction, too. Spread Fire never game me that satisfaction when using it. Though I haven't tried it in the current patch.
wispy shard
I figured the nerf wouldn't remotely make the throw bad, lmao. It's just so good it needed the nerf
drowsy berry
@fading star do you have video of one of your high heat Rama runs?
wispy shard
I liked the old pre-NN Spread Fire where it was a Dio Dispenser machine
tidal flame
and does anyone use the spin anymore?
Depends on build, Tailesque uses spin a lot.
zinc scarab
Rama is definitely in a great spot right now. A free built-in (1.6 * # of enemies affected) damage multiplier is great. The only thing I'd want for it now is a longer debuff duration.
wispy shard
It's hilarious because people on day one kept saying Rama sucked.
Now I'm hearing that it nukes things?
zinc scarab
People just need to get used to not powershotting
tidal flame
Blasphemy
autumn sable
kneejerk reactions are just that
zinc scarab
I'd assume that's because it was far slower on day one, and people still needed to get used to how to play it
fading star
@Amir I recorded them so I can post them on YouTube or you can watch the Twitch vods where I scream bloody murder the whole time about how much I hate swordsmen
zinc scarab
Plus you had people like fox here who can't live without powershots
mossy zinc
@drowsy berry just letting you know I really love the focus you've been giving high heat balance recently. Very much appreciated! I hope we can inspire more people to take on the challenge!
autumn sable
imo, it was one of the harder things to give feedback early on in the tech beta, simply cause time was needed
autumn sable
right
mossy zinc
It's a lot of fun seeing more and more people come together to figure out strategies, and to see more people trying.
wispy shard
"Arthur is trash!"
tidal flame
Tbf I never complained about the new aspects
wispy shard
"Malphon is trash!"
zinc scarab
I'd say the only actual new aspect that may need more speed/tuning is beowulf
wispy shard
Are there any legitimately bad/non-viable aspects?
tidal flame
The only thing I trash talk on this sever is Delta Chamber xD
wispy shard
beo did get tuned in several ways just today
drowsy berry
@fading star great -- if you get a YT vod, please DM me. Would love to see it. I assume it was before the most recent patch?
zinc scarab
Man apparently I just missed all of this update
wispy shard
yeah, Delta is a bit... eeeeh
autumn sable
non-viable is a very strong word that I think doesn't really apply to any of the aspects
mossy zinc
"Malphon is trash!"
I always had the feeling people thought my Malphon build was really a meme until I cleared 41 with it lol.
wispy shard
well, my vote for bad aspect is Zagreus shield
tidal flame
Also a lot of this discussion is really #h1-builds-and-combat territory
zinc scarab
You mean delta chamber/eternal chamber? the best hammer in the game?
Honestly needs a nerf
fading star
LOL! I was running a save file because I had epic quality Dionysus special and between two good runs I had to install
wispy shard
eternal is completely different
delta is the one that also adds an absurd refire delay
fading star
So it's kind of a mixed bag. Here, I'll compile the video
tidal flame
Eternal is good
zinc scarab
Is it though?
tidal flame
Delta is xxxxDDD!!!one!! eleven!
zinc scarab
oh god fox don't you dare go rawr! xD on me
wispy shard
uwu dewta chambew
zinc scarab
#h1-high-heat-strategies , where we all lose our minds over delta chamber, and break into uwu's
honest kernel
The hell did I miss
mossy zinc
Well, time to pratice more Hades fighting with gimp pre-patch Explosive Upper until I get a new save here. Although, I'll probably just keep using this one lol.
zinc scarab
Nothing, this is normal
hallow stream
whatever "this" is
autumn sable
nothing about this channel is normal
zinc scarab
We're not doing this here
honest kernel
- Hazard Bomb (Rail): removed the inability to aim your Bombard special (just be sure to get out of the way)
Does this make it viable for high heat ?
Because I have a feeling it's at 'least usable
tidal flame
Hmm idk, I mostly use Hestia so spec is a bonus, not the focus
mossy zinc
Twin Shot is relative confirmed?
tidal flame
What
honest kernel
Either way I'm gonna mess around with it
zinc scarab
Wouldn't the twin thing make fists best weapon?
honest kernel
Once I stop memeing around with Hades Spear at 40 heat
mossy zinc
There are no memes at 40+.
honest kernel
I guess you could call it making memes a reality
Now to find a way to not die in Elysium
autumn sable
make your memes, dreams
mossy zinc
Have you tried not just standing there when the Longspears 360 no-scope you from off-screen?
They've nerfed the Exalted's damage.
honest kernel
Too busy avoiding teleporting chariots while getting sniped by Archers
mossy zinc
So hey, your runs have already imroved!
honest kernel
Maybe
zinc scarab
Just listen to hypnos and kill your enemies before they kill you maybe?
mossy zinc
Waiting for a patch is the new high heat strat.
autumn sable
not the longspears though 😦
mossy zinc
Guess I'll still get 360 no-scoped out of nowhere.
mossy zinc
Longspears are not a problem until one jumps at you from off-screen out of nowhere.
honest kernel
.... Sounds about right
mossy zinc
Less of a consistent problem and more of what the chocobo was that?! problem.
autumn sable
Longspears are not a problem until
one20 of them jumps at you from off-screen out of nowhere.
mossy zinc
Fair.
honest kernel
So anyways, not sure if it's right to ask in this channel, but any recommendations for a recording software ?
mossy zinc
TFW you think you've cleared the wave because you see nothing on your screen and BAM!
OBS Studio.
honest kernel
Like, I don't think I'll do it with Twitch
It's an option but yeah
Anything else ?
autumn sable
GeForce has native recording software if you have that
tidal flame
I don't Stream so I use OBS strictly for recording
tidal flame
If you have Nvidia cards, you can use the native software
mossy zinc
Nvidia ShadowPlay can record, yeah.
autumn sable
that's the name for it
tidal flame
Or OBS with NVENC setting
Literally no performance drops
But ShadowPlay has a lower learning curve I suppose
tidal flame
The real question is can my i3 laptop with integrated graphics run Hades
tidal flame
And streaming at 4k 60fps?
mossy zinc
While perhaps real, it is not a high heat question by any means.
autumn sable
unless the strat is to play high heat on a system that's so limited that you can play in slow motion
autumn sable
reaction time +300%
honest kernel
"Easy tips to beat Hades with 50+ heat"
tidal flame
Play the game frame by frame
honest kernel
We TAS now
mossy zinc
Maybe you three should start with beating 40+.
tidal flame
Nah I'm doing the waiting for patch strats
honest kernel
Give me some time, exploring what is basically uncharted territory
With Hades Aspect Spear
autumn sable
it's charted
honest kernel
is it?
mossy zinc
Waiting for Spread Fire to carry you when it gets infinite ammo and hitstun.
Tailesque did 40 with Hades Aspect, and Wriste13 did a lot of (failed) runs with it on 40+.
honest kernel
I see
mossy zinc
Link to the replay is in the pinned spreadsheet, if you want to watch for strats.
tidal flame
Oh shoot I need to rerecord this week's Peachy Challenge
I lost the original recording
honest kernel
Where does Peach post their challenges ?
mossy zinc
Probably a lot of untapped potential still, anyway.
autumn sable
yeah, i didn't mean to discourage you, there's still a lot to be done
just that there is at least one video that you could work off of if you're interested
honest kernel
I assume the videos are in this Discord too
autumn sable
the spreadsheet is pinned
tidal flame
And sometimes hang out on this server.
mossy zinc
Is The_Breakshift, actually?
honest kernel
So noted : I better check pins
autumn sable
i think breakshift and the horheristo guy are not
i just happened to come across them
mossy zinc
I see.
honest kernel
I don't see any Achilles 40+ heat clear 👀
It might actually be better with some of the new duos
autumn sable
at least in this particular discord, breakshift is definitely in other Hades-related ones
honest kernel
Athena/Aphrodite new duo in particuliar
mossy zinc
I think that's what I recommended to somebody here just yesterday for 40+? lol
Maybe that was you, no idea to be honest.
honest kernel
Not me for sure
autumn sable
i think 40 achilles is very doable
mossy zinc
Yeah.
autumn sable
there's not many cast builds in the list but they are viable
mossy zinc
I think it's more a lack of interest so far than cast builds being weak.
autumn sable
it's just difficult to set up, which is my guess for why you don't see a ton
autumn sable
but there's also plenty of forced merciful end builds so it's not impossible
mossy zinc
Easy +150% cast damage on bosses is no joke.
honest kernel
^
autumn sable
and one crystal beam run
honest kernel
Of course it's Haelian LOL
Yeah, back on the drawing board for me
for hades aspect
mossy zinc
Good luck!
Bouldy might be the strat you didn't think you need, indeed.
Make sure you get that Ambiguity Bonus.
mossy zinc
Does Skelly actually survive long at all when everything hits for +100%?
Although, I guess maybe you don't have HL maxed out.
He takes damage from your attacks, too, right?
So spins will murder him.
honest kernel
He doesn't take much damage from your own attacks
He takes like 1 or 2 damage from your spins
mossy zinc
Oh.
honest kernel
And because you are using spins, you just kill everything
mossy zinc
So it's damage but reduced to 1~2 damage.
vivid crater
i think they buffed the damage reduction from your attacks a while back
honest kernel
^ They did that A TON
vivid crater
but i didn't know it was that low
honest kernel
It's stupid low
mossy zinc
I haven't used Skelly in forever lol.
honest kernel
He'll still get murdered by multi-attacks like lasers
But early on, he's good
Especially for consistent Erebus Gates
for Tartarus and Asphodel
Elysium might be too much to ask LOL
He's also great for the Power Couple
mossy zinc
But you've said Elysium is the problem, right?
honest kernel
Because I use Hades aspect, I have to forego Damage Control unless I want rooms to take forever
mossy zinc
What pacts do you use?
honest kernel
so that limits my heat pact conditions
Give me a moment
gotta check something real quick and I'll post it
when I said I was memeing, I wasn't kidding
tidal flame
Don't let your memes be dream
honest kernel
Routine Inspection 2 is the meme part
Tight Deadline at 7:00 feels too harsh for Elysium
Especially if I run Underworld Customs
wispy shard
Does overpumping heat still make heat gauge cry?
wispy shard
also "for now" scares me
honest kernel
So now I gotta go do something for like half an hour
tidal flame
Living the meme.
@mossy zinc mood :(
Yeah the heat gauge still cries
Maybe TD2? That's 3 heat right there. Ik Elysium is tight, but it has always been, might as well embrace it.
mossy zinc
Has there been any 40+ run without TD2 even?
hallow stream
I did one in the last patch, but that was with zeus shield
mossy zinc
Ah.
hallow stream
and it wasn't recorded so it never happened
autumn sable
doesn't exist to me
mossy zinc
TD2 with that setup is 3 off JS, or 2 off CP + 1 off JS, etc. etc.
mossy zinc
Or no UC and 1 off JS . . .
No UC and 1 off CF. So many options with 3 more points of wiggle room.
wispy shard
take Approval Process and put your run even further into the hands of RNG, 4Head
autumn sable
@tidal flame yeah, I found JS to not really be a problem at TD2 with Zeus attack on fist
Hades aspect, however, I'm not so sure of its crowd clearing
I'd be inclined to think Hades would do better with TD if removing some JS or CP but this sounds like a question for the resident Shine Spiker
honest kernel
Yeah, he's the one that did the Hades run, right ?
It's also the problem I saw when playing with the run myself
autumn sable
si
honest kernel
The thing with hades aspect is if you want the damage boost, you NEED to spin, which without the quick spin hammer, takes up a bunch of time
And trying to clear Elysium without the damage boost is mega suspect
Altho I could mess around with removing some levels of CP and Jury Summons
in favor of Tight Deadline 2
Probably Jury summons
For now I'll see how it goes with TD1
If not, try with TD2 and no Jury Summons
CP is kinda whatever when you want to spin everything anyways
We'll see if I have trouble with Hades/Theseus and Asterius because of time first
zinc scarab
Bow? FO2? Twin shot?
tidal flame
Real talk Doom Hestia is legit
honest kernel
Wait a minute
Doom Hestia
I mean, I can see it being somewhat effecitve if you can mix it with Dire Misfortune scaling, but uh
honest charm
1-hit armored enemies, probably
and it's impending doom
Dire misfortune is small stacks
honest kernel
The hic : You don't have the damage boost for that base empowered shot because you don't have an attack
So it's like
Why Hestia
shut siren
that just sounds like intentionally not taking advantage of the bonus of Hestia 
Dire Misfortune Doom Rail works great on Eris though
you just get a free 60% dmg boost on Doom
mossy zinc
Hypotheses are tested in real runs. If it works, it works.
zinc scarab
My question is always but could it work better?
And eris doom build sounds like something fun I have to try now
mossy zinc
@tidal flame 42 because I did 41, huh? I just realized.
Carried by ranged weapons, though.
Smh.
zinc scarab
Says Ms. Athena
tidal flame
Carried by ranged weapons, though.
@mossy zinc remember, all weapons are bow
I am not kidding about Doom Hestia though
sly hound
Okey, time to try 32 heat with fist !
honest kernel
Good luck!
sly hound
AHHHHH
I can't do it
Died twice to the mega-gorgon mini boss fight
No idea how to do that fight with FO2
honest kernel
If you can get Hangover or Doom it's a good way to chunk the Skullcrusher when he's up.
tidal flame
Focus the head first
By head I meam the skull crusher
Just realized they are both heads xD
sly hound
Wat
Just died to... A bug, I guess ?
Finished a room, heard the fireball coming from the lava, picked up my boon, fire appeared under my feet
limber sorrel
Just make sure to kill gorgon first as she's easier to land reliable damage on and is the only way the skull smasher can hit you
tidal flame
With FO2 and potentially MM I find focusing the skull is safer
It's easier to dodge the stun bullets than to dodge the slam and shockwave. If you focus on dodging the slam/shockwave then might as well focus the skull. Just my approach.
limber sorrel
my issue is trying to focus the skull smasher (maybe it's my faulty method) is by letting it hone in on you dashing away from it then dash into it over the wave
then being essentially melee range requires a dash away which is more lag and lost dps to be able to get backstab bonus
that scenario at times makes me miss my burst combo where I can almost always land a burst combo on gorgon
daring hedge
i personally go after the megagorgon first
not for much of a meaningful reason, but i'm used to it and have done it this way for a long time
i guess dodging a single shockwave from time to time passively while killing the gorgon feels more straightforward than going after the skullcrusher, blipping up and down into range, while dodging numerous petrifying projectiles from various angles depending on where she teleports
tidal flame
I mean I don't sit idly when the Skull is high up
I tag as much damage as I can on the Gorgon
Just that I focus more on the skull, all else being equal
daring hedge
i'm not saying your preference is wrong or anything, or that you would just simply wait and do nothing between skullcrusher slams
i just like the convenience of being able to constantly deplete the gorgon's health aside from some small teleports
tidal flame
Although sit and wait is still fine tbh
I get to hydra within 3 to 4 mins
And I'm sure most people do, too
A testament to how lopsided TD is
daring hedge
yeah, TD2 is not at all an issue in asphodel unless you're really struggling
in which case the run is most definitely not going to go well
limber sorrel
TD2??
honest kernel
I struggled with TD2 in my 32 Heat runs in Asphodel for a little while, then was having trouble in Elysium, but unless you get screwed badly with both a 5 sack and Tiny Vermin fight, I don't think it's that problematic in Styx.
Tight Deadline.
limber sorrel
I personally don't run tight deadline as i'm trying to finish all my bounties before really turning up the heat
how much heat does td 2 give?
tidal flame
5
daring hedge
that's fair. it's just kind of a necessity for high heat runs though
daring hedge
especially since a build good enough to survive high heat will have good damage and ideally clear encounters and bosses quickly anyways
tidal flame
Ambient%
honest kernel
Can only hit 47 Heat without TD.
honest kernel
Oops.
tidal flame
(58 on Hell Mode, but that's different)
limber sorrel
I can check soon when I kill fb
daring hedge
please let me have personal liability on my normal save
i just want that sweet extra heat point
sly hound
Welp, died on the hydra... -35% dash distance sucks
sly hound
Sword, nemesis aspect
- i had double nova and special damage from chaos without any special boon, so not very lucky
zinc scarab
Still need to figure out how to beat Hades with Dash Strike Nemesis and not get pummeled at 32 heat
Once that's solved, I'll be good
tidal flame
Just do it and hope the enemies die before you do
Like those movie scene where 2 swordmans lunge at each other
Only one should be standing afterward
zinc scarab
I can kill everything except redacted without difficulty
tidal flame
Pray that be you.
zinc scarab
then redacted comes along and whirlwinds and i just kinda... flail my arms
zinc scarab
Yeah I run SD instead of DD so I need to learn
like I said before, haelian's "impressive 32 heat nemesis clears" involve him being hit by literally every attack from redacted
which, for reference, isn't great for learning how to dodge those attacks
tidal flame
like I said before, haelian's "impressive 32 heat nemesis clears" involve him being hit by literally every attack from redacted
It's not a bug, it's a feature.
honest kernel
And that's why Heartbreak Strike is superior to Deadly Strike on Nemesis. 
zinc scarab
But 45% chance to crit
torn vapor
And that's why Heartbreak Strike is superior to Deadly Strike on Nemesis.
@honest kernel I know you enjoy it more than ever now that Heart Rend has expanded its prerequisites pool
honest kernel
Nah, I always ran Deadly Flourish.
tidal flame
What changed?
honest kernel
True Shot and Arty's Aid were added to prereqs.
Used to just be Deadly Strike and Flourish.
tidal flame
I see.
zinc scarab
I do like Heartbreak Flourish though.
honest kernel
It's definitely good.
sly hound
Welp, died on EM3 Asterius mini-boss
Charged me twice in a row, couldnt do much, not used to FO2 on that version
Ah well, will do some more try tomorrow
fallow stream
Still need to figure out how to beat Hades with Dash Strike Nemesis and not get pummeled at 32 heat
@zinc scarab have you tried a lambent plume run? Get a call early, so that Hermes has a higher chance of giving you Second Wind.
Go for smoldering air, you'll pretty much never get touched
zinc scarab
I try to avoid relying on dodging, I meant more practicing with using movement/dashes to avoid death
fallow stream
Ok... Zeus synergizes well with it too, just fyi. Has lots of support for call based builds
To each their own
I get why you don't wanna do it. Allows you to be sloppy and the idea is that you want to beat it skill based
zinc scarab
Yeah, it's also the fact that relying on dodge % chance is unreliable, even if it's up to something like 80%, as my luck is garbage
honest kernel
I've heard whispers that Dodge chance doesn't properly stack, if you've got three 33% chances to dodge, it checks each individually.
fallow stream
I assure you it's very reliable if you make it your focus
I would even go so far as to say it's broken
But you have to be adept at clearing rooms quickly to get the base dodge on the plume up.
The beauty about using SD is you can be reckless at the start to get those quick clears, then late game, the plume protects you as get need to get even more reckless to clear quickly
I've stood smack in the middle of Asterius' tornado spin and not been hit
After triggering second wind of course
honest kernel
You ever watch someone sit in front of Dad's Phase 2 lasers and not get hit except right at the start before he pops Second Wind?
fallow stream
@honest kernel you're partially right about dodge chance...
There's base dodge chance, which is individually calculated, then there's bonus dodge chance. Bonus dodge chance applies to each individual base dodge chance 😉
And yes, I've facetanked Hades doing exactly what you describe
Mind you, I had no fear because I had touch of Styx dark active for the fight plus last stand
autumn sable
Have you tried just not having a heart?
fallow stream
What weapon/build @tidal flame ?
Fyi... I've died like 20 times trying to replicate another 40 heat run and record it 🤣
tidal flame
Agony to utilize the delay damage for reload purposes
The way I think of it, with Epic Doom I have 150 damage extra for each empowered shot
Hunter Dash amps the normal attack damage so I can use the high base damage
autumn sable
I encourage experimenting
tidal flame
Ricochet works to
fallow stream
That makes sense
tidal flame
I just happen to have Piercing for this seed
I did try Ricochet earlier today
I just lost the seed
so whoops xD
Real talk I think Doom Bow might be good
to overcome DC
same thing for Hestia
autumn sable
I really liked doom on Rama
fallow stream
I endorse Doom Lucy
Was insane
With eternal chamber, impending doom and dire misfortune
autumn sable
But it’s not as effective as I initially thought since Doom doesn’t actually participate in Shared Suffering
fallow stream
Doom on special then?
tidal flame
I can't trust myseld to get priv status
although now I think of it,
Heartbreak Flourish Curse of Agony Hunter Dash is really good
but having that is ???
autumn sable
And you just get impending doom to prolong your priv time
tidal flame
Fam Fav is still the to go for me, sadly
autumn sable
If you are lucky you can get curse of nausea and really clear rooms at high heat
fallow stream
I want to try this build on high heat, was very strong at 14:
autumn sable
autumn sable
I tried some runs with priv status but never got it to proc with my particular set up
daring hedge
i do think snow burst is worth taking for beo
autumn sable
I suspect that it’s one of those cases where if you manage it, it’ll help a ton, but if not you’re basically a dead run dps wise
But maybe that’s a sign
Current 40 heat Beowulf was done with Icy Flare
fallow stream
Interesting
daring hedge
were any hammers integral to that run?
fallow stream
On mine?
autumn sable
That’s a good question, I don’t remember
daring hedge
oh no i meant the 40, sorry
on my admittedly few beo runs, the hammers felt very unneeded
autumn sable
There’s only one Beowulf hammer that really helps it so I’m not sure it makes much difference
fallow stream
Imo, unless you are pumping the special for Beo, the only hammer that is truly a difference maker is unyielding defense
autumn sable
Maybe from a survival point
fallow stream
But if you go special attack, you take dashing flight and charged flight
Then just use casts as support
autumn sable
Charged shot is a worthwhile hammer as well
fallow stream
It's good for sure
autumn sable
Maybe even preferable at the ultra high heats
fallow stream
But, I reserve judgement until they fix the blocking
autumn sable
They did supposedly
daring hedge
weirdly the heat icon on victory screens hasn't been fixed
fallow stream
I wish kinetic blast was as quick as charged shot
daring hedge
which, for us high heat players, is totally unacceptable
autumn sable
At least the victory screen also shows the heat level
tidal flame
what heat icon?
fallow stream
Top left corner
daring hedge
upper left, it's missing on the bar
fallow stream
It's blacked out
But you can see it on the right side anyway
Where the run time is
mossy zinc
No, Black Out shows in the boon menu. That's not in the upper left.
tidal flame
ah right
that's recent yes?
I guess I don't want to win my runs because I wanted the Victory screen to be perfect
yeah, that must be it.
daring hedge
that's the spirit
mossy zinc
Can't be. Spent Spirit is gone.
autumn sable
how much a month do you have to pay for that?
tidal flame
pay for what?
autumn sable
how dare you edit it, you coward
tidal flame
we have enough smart Alexes on this server
one more 42 try before I call it quit
god bless
hallow stream
it's always one more
tidal flame
and another one
autumn sable
did you fix your potato router, wriste?
fading star
Wait, no, Spent Spirit is still in the game. It's just changed name and Duo gods, right? I swore I got it today
hallow stream
we fiddled with some stream settings
hallow stream
it's not amazing but I think it's working now
fading star
Oh thank science
autumn sable
ignore her toaster, she was making puns
mossy zinc
Yeah, ignore my toaster.
hallow stream
her toaster can type?
autumn sable
commas are important
daring hedge
also new spent spirit (calculated risk) got nerfed by 20%
honest kernel
Wait, what?
daring hedge
so 40% slower projectiles instead of 60%
daring hedge
ah you're right, my mistake
that's what i get for not paying enough attention to spent spirit
another 41 hades aspect run, another champ fight start with 40 seconds left
zinc scarab
Just don't die!
daring hedge
i got pretty terrible hammers though, so i feel like it could have worked out with serrated point
oh i already did 
only managed to get them down to about half health each
miniboss was giant soulcatcher so asterius was at full full
limber sorrel
is it something related to my heat options that erebus in tartarus keeps giving me mega gorgon?
daring hedge
yes
i've had one spawn that as well as a super elite nemean chariot at the same time
it was not great
honest kernel
Checking some old feedback of mine and despite the 1-27 vote, Rocket Bomb was balanced back down to 80 damage.
fallow stream
Can someone define "routing" for me?
To me, it means you have a preferable seed, and you keep giving up because you want to make it work
tidal flame
that's seeding
routing involves RNG manipulation past the first room
let's say you get an Epic Deadly Strike first room and give up to save it, that's seeding
tidal flame
routing means you record what you did, casting, pot breaking, etc. so you can have what you want further into the run
so you can get something absurd like Merc End by room 4 and 5x Chaos attack boon by the end of Asphodel
zinc scarab
I won
fallow stream
I've got stuff like that naturally though @tidal flame
tidal flame
yeah, there is not shortcut or magical stuff for high heat clear.
zinc scarab
Posted in #h1-victory-boasting
tidal flame
that's why I'm OK with seeding my run to only guarantee the first boon
I can suicide over and over in TA until a good start and call it a "blind run"
honest kernel
I Give Up occasionally if the Dark Thirst weapon doesn't have a decent start.
tidal flame
Let's skip the hassle and give me the first good boon.
honest kernel
Like if I want Zeus Attack on Lucifer and it offers Special, Cast, or Dash.
fallow stream
I'll always reroll once on first boon if I don't get what I prefer
If it still refuses, I try and see what happens by the end of Tartarus. If it sucks to the point I know the run isn't gonna be coherent... Suicide, lol
tidal flame
Yeah, I mean a blind run with some luck can actually give you more insane build than seeded
zinc scarab
I always peek at the first boon to see what's offered in terms of attack/special etc.
and then do a run based on that
tidal flame
Not to take anything away from blind runner
zinc scarab
kind of wish the very first boon of a run guaranteed something like attack/special/cast
tidal flame
I just can't make myself to go through the process.
fallow stream
when you remove mirror talents I fully understand seeding
But if not... There's no reason
zinc scarab
I'm just happier when I'm playing a weapon with a rare or better starting boon
autumn sable
the new explosive upper is amazing
zinc scarab
How strong is it?
tidal flame
so did you clear 57 with it?
zinc scarab
wow fox, rude
fallow stream
Yes, it is
autumn sable
it's not even the strong part, but it is strong
it's that it's sped up
there's less delay on it
mossy zinc
What's the damage now?
honest kernel
Really?
autumn sable
but also I was able to clear tartarus without a special boon at all
mossy zinc
Well, Tartarus is Tartarus.
zinc scarab
Lol, imagine if krasher just fired back with "yeah, i did"
tidal flame
I mean I got through Tartarus with a single Hunter Dash
How about Elysium doe
biggest choke of my runs
autumn sable
dunno, didn't make it that far
zinc scarab
Biggest choke in general, elysium too long please shorten
autumn sable
i had no dash either
tidal flame
hmm let me hop in and test it quick
mossy zinc
Just git gud.
mossy zinc
. . .
fallow stream
"spear too strong"
........
Why do people keep saying that
mossy zinc
Nice.
mossy zinc
@light sedge congratulations on 41 heat!!! 🥳
light sedge
Thank you 😄
My little heart was racing so hard, Than's bell only made it worse hah
Kinda panicked at the end there
Damn hades slapped me for 120 at one point
mossy zinc
Yeah! HL5 + Boiling Blood hits for 120 lol.
light sedge
Idk how yall do it with any other weapon
I'll still try it tho, maybe with the fists
mossy zinc
I've been seeing a lot of those 120 swings practicing the fight lately.
tidal flame
Idk how yall do it with any other weapon
we generally don't xD
light sedge
Oooh that's rough 
Right, but you do win at times 😋
Heavily RNG dependent, not sure I like that
I enjoy high heat, but I dislike when runs turn to relying on luck too much
tidal flame
That's why most high heat runs rely on like 1 to 2 boons
usually in the form of core boons
You get a Hunter Dash and a Heartbreak Strike, build complete
the rest is to be sold at UC
light sedge
Hmm
I might try some of the other weps and see how they feel
Do you usually force boons or pray you get what you want?
tidal flame
Try bow or rail
light sedge
Seems like the starting keepsake is very influencial
tidal flame
Do you usually force boons or pray you get what you want?
Kind of? I seed for first boon rarity, I do equip God Keepsake in both Tar and As to force though
mossy zinc
I'm of the opinion that 40 to about 45 can be done consistently with good play and good strategy.
I'll force boons ideally only in Tartarus, but Tartarus + Asphodel most of the time.
Elysium and the Temple of Styx are Acorn territory.
Asphodel, too, if I get what I want by Tartarus.
light sedge
Interesting
I'll have to keep this in mind for my next attempts
This is what I normally do for my 20 heat runs
I usually seed for the first two biomes
Do you ever put 3 points in Routine Inspection? I feel loosing that second dash is brutal
mossy zinc
Well, we I did RI4 33 heat and Wriste13 did RI4 32 and then RI4 34. But we look at that as like a separate category lol.
Wriste13 did RI3 with Hestia on 48.
mossy zinc
Ah oops. He did RI4 35. My bad.
light sedge
That doesn't sound too bad
zinc scarab
RI4 is very very different from any normal run
mossy zinc
No I mean RI4 35 instead of RI4 34. But RI3 48 with Hestia, yeah.
RI4 is really hard.
No DDs, 1 dash.
We basically just abuse deflect on Malphon for that lol.
light sedge
lol gotcha
mossy zinc
Still waiting for more people to do RI4 with other weapons.
If you have a video of your run, @autumn sable will add you to the pinned list.
TFW you unpause your game mid-Hades fight, turn on your pad that you forgot to turn on, and Zag dodges all attacks meanwhile.
honest kernel
No, you got hit by the axe itself and the shockwave, I would assume.
tidal flame
😦 if it doesn't trigger then give me Personal Liability T.T so I can take responsibility for my failures
can you deflect the slam with divine strike?
honest charm
yes
mossy zinc
I've never deflected the shockwave from it.
Asterius with no EM, you can deflect 100% of his attacks. EM Asterius, you can't.
Hmm 395 HP to kill Maxy Hades. I can do better than that.
Bootleg EM4.
What we should call him?
Maxy sounds good.
tidal flame
Isn't Maxy like a really bad name?
mossy zinc
Maxy is great.
autumn sable
Does someone actually know the trigger for mercy invulnerability?
honest charm
no. plz no.
mossy zinc
Maxmax?
honest charm
Dad.
mossy zinc
But I'm talking about Hades with maxed-out pacts for his fight specifically.
His final form.
Maxmax.
honest charm
Sir Hades
daring hedge
street fighter bias showing nyaa
tidal flame
Give me PL or give me death
honest charm
gonna start doing high heat with my Sword
any specific pacts I should try to avoid?
autumn sable
How high and what sword?
honest charm
mine
daring hedge
zag sword enters the ring
honest charm
and eventually max heat, theoretically, I'm going as high as I can
autumn sable
Sounds like there isn’t anything to avoid then
tidal flame
Aspect of Zagreus on high heat?
daring hedge
57 go get em lysol
mossy zinc
Avoid RI4 and RI3 for 40+ while you can.
tidal flame
I'll change my name to Zoom Best Player if you make 45+ heat with it :3
mossy zinc
RI2 and RI1 hit pretty hard, too. But they're way more forgiving than RI3 and RI4.
daring hedge
i'm definitely interested to see how zag sword can deal with TD2 elysium woes and such without the various damage boosts that come with literally every other sword aspect
autumn sable
Oddly, no ones even tried Nemesis
tidal flame
I did
autumn sable
Well not odd
tidal flame
Didn't make it very fair, but I tried
autumn sable
I suspect sword has similar issues as fists
crystal iron
just did 16 heat for the first time (with aspect of ||Arthur||). Had to full clear ||Styx||... It's a good thing I had 400+ hp, decent survivability and all 3 death defiances.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/329633264258252803/726326611774930994/unknown.png
autumn sable
Only worse cause the defensive options don’t exist
mossy zinc
@crystal iron congrats!
crystal iron
thanks
mossy zinc
You don't need to spoiler-tag anything here in this channel.
crystal iron
oh, ok
tidal flame
nice!
I think going FO1 is a smart move on Arthur
You get the heat and just enough consistency to carry the massive sword through
daring hedge
or you can be nonsensical like me and do FO2 anyway
mossy zinc
FO2 with Excalibur isn't too bad, I think.
autumn sable
Not all of us are as abusive to ourselves as you are, Tail
mossy zinc
I think the difficulty of that compared to other aspects with FO2 is exaggerated.
tidal flame
yeah but at the same time, FO1 feels nice
autumn sable
Okay, 10 clears with sword
daring hedge
i'd probably agree that it's kind of exaggerated. there are some difficulties with getting off the finisher swing but otherwise you can make it work
tidal flame
you don't have to torture yourself all the time yknow
just enjoy your time here
this is fine.
daring hedge
playing without FO2 feels really bizarre after getting so used to it
i think my first peach challenge run this week was no FO
surreal
mossy zinc
I get hit by Lernie head slams without FO because I go back in too soon lol.
tidal flame
honestly I think the biggest difference is that FO2 enemies attack more often
crystal iron
forgot to take a victory screen, but this is what I had
https://imgur.com/a/Y1hYwLR
zinc scarab
Man, the asphodel power couple with MM and FO2 is something else on fists
mossy zinc
Use a summon for the Skullcrusher's armor, ideally both.
daring hedge
lol
zinc scarab
Trying to use meg, but getting up close and personal with the megadusa often leaves me petrified as big daddy head comes a stomping
I basically just need to get good
daring hedge
use mort for the first time ever in a 42 run and whiff theseus and asterius with it #h1-high-heat-strategies
autumn sable
Whiffing your summon is a power move
tidal flame
Hades "High Heat Strategies"
autumn sable
To show the bosses who the real boss is
tidal flame
obviously
mossy zinc
High heat strategies compendium:
(1) enter Erebus early, fail,
(2) whiff your summons,
(3) step on magma,
(3b) step on magma for SD when you have no SD,
(4) dash into 150 damage urn to avoid 20 damage skull shockwave,
(5) buy healing items with LC4,
zinc scarab
I actually take longer in Elysium so that TD2 runs out, so I can look theseus in the eye as I kill him with 5 health left, and know that he did none of the damage I took during that fight
zinc scarab
That's an actual strategy though
honest charm
(6) walk into every spin
tidal flame
Can we add losing all DDs before Elysium so you can maximize Patty value in there, too?
daring hedge
you forgot 1b) enter erebus in elysium and fail
honest charm
I saw several practice final boss fights
and walking into spins appeared to be the goal for you, and to a lesser extent wriste
mossy zinc
(8) use summon to destroy DC hearts
tidal flame
last run I accidentally sold my Hunter Dash coming out of Tartarus
level 3, also
so I entered Asphodel with literally no boon
made it to Elysium which then died to the cow double hit for 32 each you saw earlier
mossy zinc
(9a) find Patroclus when you have 3 DDs,
(9b) never find Patroclus when you have no DDs
daring hedge
(x) have AP deny you a potentially run-defining duo several times
tidal flame
zinc scarab
Can we get a compilation of these pinned?
mossy zinc
(10) skip forced boon in Asphodel, never see another
tidal flame
just make it a copy pasta that is posted ocassionally
daring hedge
surely making amir proud with these foolproof strategies
zinc scarab
(0) Give up and start a new run
mossy zinc
I've never done that.
zinc scarab
Oh I don't mean seeding
daring hedge
you've never died and started a new run
honest charm
High heat strategies compendium:
(1) enter Erebus early, fail,
(2) whiff your summons,
(3) step on magma,
(3b) step on magma for SD when you have no SD,
(4) dash into 150 damage urn to avoid 20 damage skull shockwave,
(5) buy healing items with LC4,
(6) walk into every spin
(7) walk back into Lernie head slam after dashing out of it
(8) use summon to destroy DC hearts
(9a) find Patroclus when you have 3 DDs,
(9b) never find Patroclus when you have no DDs
(10) skip forced boon in Asphodel, never see another
mossy zinc
Not intentionally, no.
daring hedge
some say nyaa is still in the same run
honest charm
let me also save that somewhere
tidal flame
Groundhog Day
zinc scarab
worded it better
tidal flame
or rather, Undergroundhog Day
mossy zinc
I've definitely done all of them on 40+ lol.
tidal flame
"high" heat
mossy zinc
(11) mash dash, tell newbies to not mash dash
zinc scarab
(11) Miss every fish you don't take
tidal flame
don't put yourself down,
we have no idea what we are doing xD
we just pretend we do
mossy zinc
@tidal flame no, that's just you.
warm fog
highest ive done is 8 heat and i have been playing since it was announced at game awards
tidal flame
I've definitely done all of them on 40+ lol.
@mossy zinc yeah no, it's us ❤️
zinc scarab
Also, Nyaa i have a question for you
You constantly say how much you love Aphrodite
But also are always and aggressively hunting for Athena
isn't Athena your true god?
warm fog
(12) dash into traps while trying to avoid enemies
(13) accidently use summon when meant to use god call
(14) exiting a room just to last second cast a glimpse of something you missed
daring hedge
lmao i had this thought earlier
tidal flame
I relate with 13 so hard xD
zinc scarab
Wouldn't you take an Athena boon over an aphro boon?
tidal flame
please add 13 to the list
daring hedge
OH 14 HURTS
warm fog
@zinc scarab i think it depends on weapon you use
daring hedge
i ALWAYS see a gold urn as i'm leaving
warm fog
YEAH 
tidal flame
14b) exit Chaos Realm and see a fish
warm fog
i had a run earlier today where i missed an infernal chest in tartarus