Elysium is for the "great" according to ancient Greek tradition.
#h1-story-discussion
atomic forge
drifting citrus
that runs counter to the patch notes, so something went wrong
atomic forge
So we wouldn't see Lincoln there, but we would see Chris Kyle.
fathom current
Asphodel's "normal people" are excessively more bloodthirsty than the thugs, based on description in my memory.
drifting citrus
blood rakers are bad people who are in aspho bc of a deal i think
fathom current
Huh. I haven't got to that part yet, but curious...
drifting citrus
i'll have to read over the codex again
molten temple
Blood-Rakers are sadists who get to spend time in Asphodel because they're Hades' police force.
fathom current
Spoiler it, Onyx!
fathom current
ShsbhsbhrhFair
I forgot that the phrase "reader beware!" existed up there, lol
...Hm, actually, it seems like the big majority of those who are transferred into the Underworld overall are described to become corrupted as they remain, or enter it. They could've been just your average nobody in the mortal realm, however, after death, perhaps...
chilly hawk
Blood-rakers are bullies and deserve to be minorly inconvenienced in various ways
Namely with one of the infernal arms removing their bones
fathom current
Okay maybe some of them still seem like they should be in Tartarus.
drifting citrus
reading over all the bloodless again
fathom current
Or perhaps Hades just believes that Soldiers themselves aren't exactly punishment-worthy.
drifting citrus
they basically amount to "were in the middle of doing bad stuff and now they spend the rest of their death in hate-filled destruction"
dracons are just dead snakes tho
fathom current
Monsters are...uncategorical, for the most part I think, being simpler than humans iirc with the exceptions such as Dusa
chilly hawk
Considering that most of the enemies you find in elysium are soldiers or warriors
That makes sense
clear oracle
they call Dusa a monster in the trailer
I can't believe SGG did Dusa dirty like that
fathom current
Bloodless are also fallen soldiers, and Slam-Dancers are also marauders ("unofficial" soldiers, I'd say)
Elysium is peppered with "honorable" Soldiers or Warriors, like Achilles.
open berry
I mean it's not inherently wrong, gorgon heads are a kind of monster. but that doesn't mean they can't be, yknow, sentient and express human emotions, as dusa demonstrates
fathom current
Though in Asphodel, the common grunt could be qualifiable for their sentencing.
ashen latch
Tbh the afterlife really does reflect how virtue centric Greek society was at the time. Dying honorably as a warrior was preferably done at the frontline whereas subterfuge was generally looked down on despite how many Greek heroes often times had to be clever
fathom current
I assume the majority of Monsters are in Asphodel because they're not considered/considerably sentient. Instinct-driven and simple, I'd think.
(Lemon) What a strange viewpoint...
atomic forge
Lemon's take is pretty accurate for the game universe.
All of Hades, Achilles, and Patroclus comment on how the Greek "ideal" of great tends to gravitate towards warriors and killers.
Mahatma Gandhi and MLK Jr. likely wouldn't have qualified, despite being incredible arbiters of peace in their time.
fathom current
Heeh.
I didn't mean about Lemon's opinion, just that the Greeks' viewpoints are quite strange to look at, with our contexts.
open berry
honestly such ideals have pervaded cultures for centuries so it's not surprising. the idea of an "honorable death" through battle and such
fervent skiff
The greek morals were interesting if anything
fathom current
Do you think the standards of the Underworld, if they truly existed and persisted today, would change with the modern times? Or would Hades himself remain stubborn?
(Volt) Yeye
atomic forge
Hm.
atomic forge
There's between three and two thousand years separation between our time and the world of Hades.
The rest of the House would probably have modernized but I can easily see Hades stagnating.
fathom current
I thought the Greek times were older than 3 centuries
ashen latch
It also opens a ton of weird doors. Like are these gods affected by how we believe in them or do we believe in them solely as a consequence of their powers?
It was a pretty frequent argument among some as the gods were also subject to fate
fervent skiff
I thought the Greek times were older than 3 centuries
@fathom current Thousand is a millenium
atomic forge
The Trojan War (in which both Patroclus and Achilles died) is dated around 1100 BC, 3000 years in the past from the current date.
drifting citrus
the underworld is already crumbling a bit by the time the game rolls around
fathom current
oh whoop, thanks
drifting citrus
can't imagine what another 3 thousand years will do
ashen latch
Yeah, Cerberus is no longer in his prime for instance and neither is hades in this game
fervent skiff
The concept of time is super irrelevant on Olympus and in the Underworld
open berry
it's late and my ability to form deep thoughts is completely shot so all "house would probably have modernized" does is make me think everyone with cell phones and they're still trying to get hades to move on from his dinky lil.. iunno, pager or something. maybe he's still writing manuscripts who knows
ashen latch
Whatever happened we are way past the heroic mycanean age of myths
atomic forge
It's important to note that the Trojan War takes place after the age of myths.
drifting citrus
hades the god playing hades the game
fathom current
snrk
atomic forge
There's a conversation in which Zagreus mentions that he was trained by "the greatest of the Greeks," and he mentions that Achilles lived after Theseus's time.
drifting citrus
orpheus would definitely have already upgraded to a synthesizer by this point
atomic forge
Nah, he'd still be on a guitar/keytar.
drifting citrus
or a theremin
fervent skiff
Or an electric guitar
drifting citrus
or FL studios
ashen latch
Speaking of the Trojan war, shout out to our homeboy Patroclus. Mortal hero who slew a demigod son or Zeus and only really went down because Apollo robbed him of his sense of wit
open berry
hades: typing obnoxiously on his typewriter
ashen latch
Our boy played vs a stacked deck and still did super well
atomic forge
@fervent skiff Orpheus shredding like he's Marty Friedman when?
drifting citrus
lounge tv lounge tv
chilly hawk
Hades with a mechanical keyboard
fervent skiff
YAS
open berry
so sorry for the serious convo that was happening and I just came along and rolled through it fjsknfksjfkd
drifting citrus
wait until dusa finds out about vacuum cleaners and roombas
ashen latch
Hades with a warming blanket for Cerberus because both are too stiff to cuddle like in their youth
And like an espresso machine at his desk
fathom current
Orpheus with an acoustic, huh? ...Honestly, with his voice, I'd think he could stick with the Harp, or something with a softer melody (like an Acoustic), imo.
ashen latch
Plus reading glasses
open berry
dusa sitting on a roomba
what will she do
drifting citrus
...roomba chthonic companion when
chilly hawk
Knife roomba knife roomba
drifting citrus
roombie
atomic forge
I know Hades has diminished, but has Cerberus?
fathom current
Niko on a Roomba except it's Dusa
fervent skiff
I love this server
ashen latch
@atomic forge they mentioned Cerberus being a far less vigilant guardian in current days
drifting citrus
cerb is stated to not be in his prime, and everyone knows it
also probably why you can bribe your way out
atomic forge
I must be forgetting the dialogue, thanks, all.
ashen latch
Cerberus having a weakness for Zag bribing him is adorable
open berry
the way to a dog's heart is through its stomach, dog bribery 101
atomic forge
I just assumed it was Zagreus and Cerberus refusing to have it out so they were both looking for a loophole.
drifting citrus
underworld tinder
drifting citrus
hotter than the river of flames
ashen latch
Oh it’s definitely still the case Schp. Cerberus could probably still put up one hell of a fight
atomic forge
@open berry Hey, Tiamat's Wrath says that the fastest way to get the average bear to trust you is for dogs to like you, and the fastest way to get a dog to like you is to bribe them with food.
ashen latch
But Zag wants to avoid it
Like he’s old but not quite retired yet
Same with Hades. Old man might have a stiff back but he swings like a freighter
open berry
@atomic forge You sure just said words to me
drifting citrus
🔫 let us pet cerby in styx
open tiger
I can practically hear his back crackle when he throws off his cape
atomic forge
Damn, there's an 8 Bit Theater line about how old wizards don't get to be old by being easy to kill.
fathom current
I'm stealing that phrase tatz ok?
drifting citrus
hades rlly can't catch a break
open berry
LOL I am just very tired and had to read that multiple times before I understood any of it
atomic forge
No biggie, I'm up way too late, too.
drifting citrus
first his wife, then his son, then sgg takes away his pretty lights
open tiger
Hades doesn't need to catch a break, he needs to take one
fathom current
snrrrk
If Cerberus had a theme against Zagreus would it be Grey Wolf Siif's?
drifting citrus
he's about to catch these hands
atomic forge
He's been catching my hands for 8 months now. 
cerulean hamlet
if you think about it, Hades is the most abused
atomic forge
Heck, 10 months.
ashen latch
Imagine if Hades actually took a vacation. I feel like a large part of why he’s so grouchy is because he’s a workhorse at heart who wants to personally oversee his plaintiffs. Just have the shades process the mortal souls tbh
open berry
you gotta set out the aphrodite bait
atomic forge
(I think Big Bad came out in August of last year)
ashen latch
And focus on big stuff like Chaos messing up the property value of the afterlife
cerulean hamlet
abused by his dad, abused by all this siblings, abused by Zag
atomic forge
Abused by his siblings and Zag especially is a strong way of putting it.
drifting citrus
abused by sgg taking away his cool light thing he had going on and giving it to the olympians
atomic forge
He's a giant jerk and he has invited most of what he gets upon himself.
open berry
much of mythology is abuse on top of abuse, if you wanna be technical, so a lot of material inspired by myth will adopt that
ashen latch
Tbf, Hades in the eyes of his siblings shut himself out and is the only one who has expressed any form of regret in regards to the Titan War
fathom current
Dude if Hades took a vacation he would do a Tough Break as Ms. Pauling
ashen latch
He doesn’t even want to see his aspect of Varatha because it reopens old wounds
atomic forge
Is that a Team Fortress 2 reference?
drifting citrus
good zag can open some new ones
open berry
punchy times
atomic forge
Not that Hades doesn't have very legitimate baggage and old pain, but virtually every character comments on how far he takes it.
fathom current
Heccin takes a scheduled vacation, secretly hands out contracts whenever he can
drifting citrus
the best piece of art sgg has ever put out was that one promotional art for nighty night, with buff zag with the fists on
open tiger
He has an hour per vacation "day" where he's on-call
atomic forge
Sore about his wife leaving? Sure. Taking it out for untold years/decades/centuries on his only son? Nope.
chilly hawk
Hades invokes the pact of punishment for his own vacation
open berry
still waiting for new wallpaper with rama zag to go up
open tiger
Middle Management is the only way he's getting a break
ashen latch
Yeah he could definitely take a vacation seeing as his shades are capable of the day to day work. Just go topside and enjoy a vacation in Athens
Imagine Hades’s family trip to Athens
Just the whole house
open tiger
Nyx literally moves the house
chilly hawk
yes
drifting citrus
i imagine he gets a little break when he rides back home on charon's boat
open tiger
When he whats? Last few times I've seen him, he took the short way back :P
drifting citrus
"hgrrrrnggghh..."
"don't say a word"
open tiger
"how...did...you..."
ashen latch
Tbh Assuming hades does take Charon’s ferry back
It would be a very tight fit
On those runs where he wins
drifting citrus
charon hiding all of his spare boons for sale, so hades can't see them
fathom current
I thought that Hades' return to the house before Zagreus gets back is like, non-canon Sans Shortcut stuff
ashen latch
The ride back be like
Hades: wait a second, why do you have 24 barrels of poms and a glowing crate of Olympian symbols underneath the top deck?
Charon: ... geuagh
open tiger
:3
drifting citrus
"my son just murdered me" "that's rough buddy"
fathom current
Since you'd think that if Hades takes the usual way back, he would be back after Zagreus leaves. Although, he could also have a more favorable way back than the method used to get back to his throne by death, despite his effeciency mindset.
ashen latch
Wait, he does have a faster way back. The rune in the office can transport him around
open tiger
I think he either rides with Charon or has a way to use the blood pool thing
cerulean hamlet
We don't know how long it takes for Zag to die after he leaves. The narrator technically never gives a timeline
open tiger
Yeah
fathom current
I thought that was his faster way towards the surface
open tiger
Usually, Hades isn't back if he wins though
ashen latch
Imagine if like 100 runs is all in the same day
open tiger
It's definitely towards the surface, might work to bring him back
ashen latch
Like Zag is constantly just jumping out the window
fathom current
Or, oh, wait. Yeah you right I guess.
open tiger
That's an interesting name there, Onyx
drifting citrus
if hades just went ahead and boarded up the window while zag was out having an ending, this would literally be solved
open tiger
:3
drifting citrus
i'm having second thoughts about hera
ashen latch
Lmao. Zag comes back only to find that the courtyard is under renovation so he can’t leave
open tiger
You mean the window Zag could break through with, I dunno, an Infernal Arm?
drifting citrus
just make it a wall
open tiger
Zag has to pay diamonds to finish the renovations
open berry
ah return of the looney tunes ending
open tiger
Zag can't get diamonds because he can't get out
drifting citrus
ez win
open tiger
Result: Zag is trapped
Problem: Zag stocked up on diamonds, blasted shades
Result: Zag finishes the renovations, there is now room for two more weapons >:3
gasp
It'd be a paywall
open berry
.
open tiger
Onyx you're a genius
open berry
I'm going to sleep
ashen latch
Plot twist: Zag works at the office to buy more Diamonds
With the money he earns
To destroy hades he had to become hades
open tiger
But it backfired, now Zag has a deal with the broker and gets everything at a discount
ashen latch
Tbh Zagreus becoming business savvy would be a funny twist
After numerous attempts and dozens of renovations later he finally learns how to manage money
open tiger
And immediately buys Cerberus more toys
Which is, of course, proper usage of his finances
ashen latch
A noble cause
open tiger
As noble a cause as dear Hypnos', whose work I shall soon appreciate
ashen latch
Sleep tbh
fathom current
...That's a funny joke, nini
eternal breach
THUNDER TIME
signal compass
OPPA THUNDER TIME
Smoldering Air is really cool
It turns an ultimate ability into like
Another one of your main arsenal
Just like your special or cast
fathom current
Pfheh
Hey wait, if it caps at 25%, are Greater's no longer possible?
...aw
Ah well, that is p cool. It sounds like an alt-cast now.
signal compass
Yeah that's the main downside of it, not greaters
But yeah
CALL GANG CALL GANG
"You cannot escape, none of us can..." Woah
broken wave
Is smoldering air actually good?
dense sparrow
no
broken wave
Thought so 😛
signal compass
It was the MVP for my run
It's like an extra ability at your disposal. Removing your greater calls, but giving you so much extra damage in combat.
Especially with skills like Billowing Strength and Second Wind essentially being permanent buffs.
dense sparrow
it can be good, depends on the call, on shorter calls like zeus and dio, its good, but for athena or ares it can be bad
also its really bad for aphro and artie call
signal compass
Of course; it works best in accordance with the right boons to match, like all boons.
molten temple
I think the "none of us can..." part of that line from Hades is especially chilling. Because maybe he didn't want to become the grumpy outcast that he is, but after taking the mantle of King of the Underworld he is no longer able to travel the surface to see his family. So he's become horribly jaded and now doesn't even answer his family's messages that make it to him.
signal compass
It really feels like he tried to leave himself but was prevented by perhaps the same force holding back Zagreus, or a predecessor.
Super chilling
This may have honestly been my smoothest run. Smoldering Air functioned spectacularly
dense sparrow
what are you talkin about, he can actually escape, thats how he got persephone as his wife, he opened the earth, rode in his chariot and brought her to the underworld
signal compass
Maybe he could and now he can't? I'm looking at the we in this sentence
It could be he's referring to escaping something else
Like responsibility or something
molten temple
That's how it worked in classical mythology yes, Shrewmouse. But Hades the game takes that mythos as inspiration, not as a baseline.
plain palm
is this tale true in sgg canon?
dense sparrow
idk
signal compass
I guess he wants Zag to want to stay so he's trying to crush his spirit
dense sparrow
wait, so if Achilles and Pat is dead, the Trojan war must be over, so why isnt there some dissent between the gods, they literally fought each other in the war
plain palm
perse escaped, perhaps due to her not being born in the underworld
molten temple
Same reason they get over Zag's slights probably. When you have to live in the same house for eternity, you learn to forgive such transgressions.
plain palm
poseidon kinda touches on the subject of them helping different heroes in some of the new dialogue
molten temple
Plus, I can see these Olympians acting more like Sport Team sponsors about the Trojan War. you win some, you lose some but hey, it was entertaining while it lasted.
molten temple
Centuries at least.
dense sparrow
oh yeah forgot achilles raised zag as a child
plain palm
wait how old is zag
molten temple
Unknown
Young for a god, but then that means nothing compared to mortal conceptions of such.
plain palm
oh also about demeter being the eldest of olympians, this was discussed here earlier
hestia just isn't olympian anymore
molten temple
Considering Dionysus is one, probably.
dense sparrow
after how many centuries tho, because Troy fell in 1200 BC, Mycenae civilization ended in 1100 BC, and then it become Hellenistic and existed side by side with the Romans, so wouldnt the Roman gods exist too
ashen latch
Hestia’s a weird case. Despite the popular belief that she cedes her seat to Dio there isn’t actually a mythical precedent for it. SGG might have just got for the version where she never had a seat to begin with
It also gets a bit weird with Demeter, Hera and Hestia being Hyperion’s daughters rather than Chronos’s
molten temple
Probably. Hindu mythology exists in the Hades universe.
ashen latch
Due to them stating Hyperion as “older titan stock”
So the female OG olympians might be significantly older than the males in this universe
dense sparrow
Hyperion is older Titan stock, hes like the third or second Titan, but not significantly older, becaus eht children of the Earth and Sky are born in groups, and didnt they marry at the same time?
plain palm
yeah hestia might've retired right after the war in sgg's canon
molten temple
Guh, I adore that when Orpheus and Eurydice are singing together, they stop singing while talking to Zag, and then while Eurydice is offering the food Orpheus picks up the tune.
ashen latch
Orpheus and Eurydice are so adorable together
Like at first I thought it was gonna he like a messy relationship
Given the last time they met
But then we see how they slowly open back up to the idea of each other
eternal breach
Bebys
atomic forge
hey btw, how do i unlock the new rama aspect for the bow?
i already got the one for the railgun and the shield
eternal breach
Check pins
eternal breach
No problem!
fathom current
Plus, I can see these Olympians acting more like Sport Team sponsors about the Trojan War.
Sponsored by: Ares(tm), "Can't have war without a little bloodshed."
...There's a good amount of questions I have for the idea of multiple mythologies
plain palm
i mean it's a normal concept for modern media at this point
fathom current
I suppose, but what I'm most concerned with is the interaction between multiple types of gods.
ashen latch
I love it. The gods be drafting fighters in the Trojan war and trading them like it’s the NBA
plain palm
i think they don't interact
fathom current
Alright, what a heaping load of can of worms I'm gonna open just on theoreticality alone
I know that at SGG's present, the other cultures' gods do not interact with one another. But they would have to at some point or another. Chaos is the primordial creator of all. But so is the Biblical God. In this canon, it can be implied that they are in one and the same universe, evidenced by Lucifer's namesake being mentioned as an aspect of Exagryph. Among others being mentioned or implied, I wonder how the existence of every god and mythology among each other would be handled, written, or explained.
ashen latch
I’m guessing interwoven to some extent
The weapons having users from vastly different places post Zagreus seems to imply that some form of connection will form
Poseidon for example is already aware of China existing
vapid parcel
i don't think other gods existing does necessarily mean all we've written about them is true? demeter mentions that the mortals got a lot wrong about them
ashen latch
As he flat out says the frost fair blade’s design is something he’s seen on distant shores
Yeah, we are probably gonna see a lot of stuff being “just hearsay”
Like Orphism in this world is literally the product of Dio and Zag being mischievous
Theseus being the son of Poseidon was also something people just assumed
Due to very surface level similarities
vapid parcel
plus, if Chaos really was Lucifer's parent, they wouldn't use father and Chaos would probably react to the gun
ashen latch
That would be hilarious
fathom current
Not everything the mortals have written can be true, yes. But the conflicts are something curious to think about. There are some gods in other cultures that may have absolute reign over something another has.
ashen latch
Chaos: Greetings son of Hades, I predicted your potential arrival as- wait a second, who gave you that gun?!
fathom current
There are many sun-related/governing gods/goddesses, right?
ashen latch
So many
fathom current
Heehee
ashen latch
Across virtually every culture
fathom current
Sun is important for better or worse
vapid parcel
they share
fathom current
Pft
plain palm
even the greek mythology itself isn't fully represented in some places that definitely need it in hades.
like, where is minos? he should be the judge somewhere at the side of hades himself at this point
ashen latch
The real reason Apollo isn’t in this game is because him and the sun gods are having a corporate meeting for the future of Sun Gods Inc
fathom current
Maybe Minos has yet to die before the events of Hades? At least compared to Theseus
ashen latch
Can’t be, Daedalus is already dead
And he lived around the same time
There is also the whole thing about the Minotaur
fathom current
Ah hum...
dense sparrow
so the judges must be somewhere in Hell too, Minos, Radamathus and Saepedon
plain palm
and daedalus built the underworld
fathom current
How sentencing works is mentioned in Erebus's codex, right?
ashen latch
Maybe they are just busy tbh, Tartarus, Asphodel and Elysium together is absolutely massive
vapid parcel
i think that can be chalked up to too many characters tbh
fathom current
I have yet to unlock it all
vapid parcel
but an in universe explanation would be cool
ashen latch
Between Daedalus constantly working I could see Minos just being too busy
As he’s vital to the whole system down there
fathom current
I would assume that Minos could be:
A. An in-universe manager for the office workers
B. A judge in Erebus somehow
plain palm
btw daedalus hammers are most definitely a leftover from the scrapped story about the labyrinth
ashen latch
Minos got promoted to HR
dense sparrow
there are 3 judges tho
fathom current
Hmmmmmmm, I now want to think that the hammers are almost broken, so he discards them, makes another, before Zagreus picks one up and uses it until it's broke.
plain palm
i would really like minos to be mentionned somehow, since he's also tied to asterius
and the whole story of theseus
it's weird that he wasn't yet
fathom current
Speaking of story I both loved and now hate the music sting that plays when "Schelemsomething" tells his backstory
dense sparrow
also, why are all the exalted faceless? there must be other famous heroes there, like agamemnon or odysseus
also its Schelemeus
plain palm
that's exactly why they are faceless
ashen latch
Zag mentioned that Theseus was one of the few heroes Hades could rally on such short notice
It could be possible that the other big names are just doing other stuff
Seeing as Pat is straight up chilling by the Lethe participation to kill Zag isn’t really mandatory
fathom current
I think Patroclus also speculated that they could just be in their own corner to themself.
"Pat."
vapid parcel
yeah, i can't imagine odysseus really wanting to go all ham all the time
ashen latch
Hector and Sarpedon are probably down there somewhere talking trash about Achilles
dense sparrow
which Sarpedon
plain palm
heracles is in bad relations with hades apparently
dense sparrow
oh, so not the bro of Minos
ashen latch
Slayed by Pat
dense sparrow
Herakles is a god
plain palm
no, he's in elysium
vapid parcel
hades mentioned him being in elysium iirc
plain palm
and hades wants him in tartarus
dense sparrow
what, he was raised to become god by Zeus
ashen latch
He doesn’t, he just says “he’s lucky to be under my brothers favor”
Like from how I interpreted it, it sounded more like he was on Olympus
plain palm
zag is sure he's in elysium
ashen latch
Zag mentioned him as a taunt to Thesus, unless I missed another convo
plain palm
he might be wrong
ashen latch
Like I don’t think it was definitively stated as to his specific whereabouts
plain palm
english language has such weird constructions sometimes, like i know what 'as to' means here but bonk me if i know why it does
sorry for an off-topic
fathom current
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo is a valid sentence
plain palm
well we have a valid word with three consecutive 'e's in it but that's a topic for #off-topic-discussion
fathom current
lol
To bring this back onto topic, I think the general consensus is that Skelly could be sent by the Fates or someone around such importance. But I also think his mischievous, casual nature, and discomfort with talking about how he died makes me think he could either have been a jester, a kind of trickster, or a thief. One of those things, or around there.
plain palm
well we know he did get here with hermes
fathom current
I thought that Hermes didn't know anyone by the name of Skelly, or, something along those lines. Who sent Skelly is pretty ambiguous...
plain palm
and hermes remembers him especially
fathom current
...and also possesses the power of resurrection. Though it also isn't Hades, or Nyx.
Wait, he does?
What lines were they? Or are they new ones?
plain palm
yeah, new dialogue
fathom current
Bwuuuuhhhh
plain palm
mentions the lucky tooth
fathom current
Huh. Alrighty then.
fathom current
Hm...that could be another valid candidate.
plain palm
and mb he's her father but that's too extra to be a guess, just a possibility
fathom current
Pffft. That's...not out of the realm of possibility, but that is certainly a stretch.
plain palm
i know, but it would be fun!
it's just the absence of any other significant mortal in the story that is not a shade npc already
vapid parcel
we actually find out who he works for
fathom current
Hm, he does seem like the Asphodel type. Even looks like a Bloodless.
plain palm
and i kinda doubt that skelly's personality is just... a random skeleton
vapid parcel
for anyone who wants to know it's ||charon and hermes||
plain palm
welllll they're the middle guys, no?
vapid parcel
nope
plain palm
wait why
plain palm
well hermes is a trickster
vapid parcel
also apparently ||charon is also paying hermes||
plain palm
so we don't need any motivation from him
vapid parcel
tho ||hermes|| also mentions they have the job together so
kind of unclear, might be persephone hiring them but shrug
plain palm
i think so, yeah
they might've come up with skelly but the help itself is a job from someone else
vapid parcel
it's weird and i'm intrigued
i love this stuff
i also love how much dialoge was added?
i'm replaying the game and I'm getting so much dialoge for early stuff
molten temple
Yeah, it's very cute.
vapid parcel
also, if you know what you're doing you can get pretty much all the fourth aspects in under thirty five runs
molten temple
Technically? Yeah. In practice? Unlikely.
molten temple
Hmm. I guess you can scrounge up the Blood for it in just 15 runs. 24 Keys isn't hard to scrounge up in that many runs. A 20 run buffer to get the triggers from Achilles and the others. Huh. Probably easier than I originally thought. Especially if you ignore Nectars so you don't clog the dialogue pool with affinity-related conversations.
vapid parcel
i mean, i have godmode enabled so i killed hades in under ten runs? then just turned up the heat and made sure to invest in the spear first
rng was v kind to me ngl
fathom current
Beowulf is p comparable to Arthur. Slower, stronger, defensive.
I think I like it.
vapid parcel
i haven't done a lot of runs with it
but i know the blocking had sth weird?
i'm probably gonna get it soon just bc i finally invested in the shield xD
i.. i just got the line with Chaos xD
molten temple
rng has been very unkind to me on getting the 4th aspect triggers. But then, I'm also in that Favors-level of Affinity now...
fathom current
It's stat changes aren't as drastic as Arthur's, just the move changes this time. Most drastic would be the way Cast functions with it.
I've exhausted as much dialogue before I stopped so I got the 4th aspects pretty quickly.
fathom current
Oof. I got them one run after another.
vapid parcel
well i happened to run into all the people that give them to you in one, so
i was super lucky rng wise, like, i finished patroclus' and achilles' quest in like two days
fathom current
pfffft
vapid parcel
look man, i have like 40 runs in this new one and i got achilles, patroclus, eurydice and skelly on locked heart, charon and hermes' bonds maxed and than one heart away from max
i got super lucky
molten temple
vapid parcel
i'm sorry yuki
fathom current
God Mode, right?
fathom current
It doesn't mention anything about RNG at all, does it?
vapid parcel
nope
molten temple
May Tyche bless me as I begin another batch of runs tomorrow.
vapid parcel
like i waited fourty runs or sth for than to show up in my room
most of them i met him
bold niche
the longer i think about Skelly, the more questions i have.. he seems to be bloodless, he is not a shade.. which means he was not buried properly..
but he is not obsessed with war, so he is not a casuality of battle.. and he didn't die from natural reasons either, since he haven't been picked up by Than, but Hermes instead..
and he even has a coin in his jaw, which means he was buried.. something happened? his body was stolen? why he doesn't want to tell how he got here?
but if the coin is still there that means he havent't payed to Charon at all..
so many questions
vapid parcel
well, at one point it gets mentioned he was killed by a spear
cloud geode
Ok lets keep this in order
- Killed by a spear
- Buried but not properly
- Didn't pay Charon
Uh
vapid parcel
does in fact ||get paid by charon||
cloud geode
I once suggested the fact that for some reason he couldn't pay Charon so he had to wait 100 years before crossing the Styx
Also he gets summoned, with the circle, so uuhh... what the hell
We seriously need someone to keep a file on the pins with all the messy information for him and Persephone and such for theories...
thorn compass
Laddies and Strangers
cloud geode
Omg i just got your username laddie
vapid parcel
asdfghjkl
cloud geode
I'm so dense
vapid parcel
eh, it be that way sometimes
atomic forge
can i romance ||nyx||
thorn compass
ok oedipus
fathom current
For good reason, no.
chilly hawk
No.
atomic forge
can i romance ||charon||?
ashen latch
Someone hasn’t payed attention to the Bouldy dialogue
There is definitely romance in there
So much tension
plain palm
ain't romance if there's no ambrosia involved
ashen latch
The best romances are the ones involving unrequited love. When the players involved can only play to lose. Appreciate good writing smh
Bouldy is a masterclass in character writing
Such a solid narrative
That will rock you to your core
plain palm
Such a solid narrative
@ashen latch
thanks, i hate it
ashen latch
I try
errant mango
Skelly is a real mystery still. I have to admit ||I didn't think much of the coin in his mouth and the implications of that. It was hidden in plain sight for me which was pretty cool actually.||
crystal sleet
does anybody know how to get the “thouch of styx” from charon well as I can’t finish the quest and can’t find it and finished over 30 runs.
errant mango
You need to have stubborn defiance for that to show up
It's the alternate choice for death defiance in the mirror
silk carbon
jeez, the dio/artemis duo is fueled by anger https://i.imgur.com/X2jFjY4.jpg
errant mango
There's no other requirements afaik. Just activate SD and go for it
God I love Artemis
crystal sleet
haha, it showed up on the first well, thank you very much
random basin
Ok, y'all. Theory time. Who do you think is the Narrator.
-
The narrator is not just a narrative device, since Zagreus very explicitly calls out and talks to him. Either the narrator is a separate character or Zagreus is going full-on internal deadpool monologue. Given that the narrator is privy to all sorts of information that Zagreus clearly isn't (such as the fact that Persephone is his mom), I'm convinced that the narrator is just a separate character (and isn't just some sort of internal monologue).
-
The narrator knows a LOT of things about the underworld, its inhabitants, etc. He knows about its past, as if he's been here for a LONG time.
-
The narrator appears to be an "old man," as evidenced by Zagreus' quips towards him.
-
The narrator has the ability to, somehow, directly narrate/communicate with Zagreus without the other characters hearing/reacting to said disembodied narrations.
-
Despite this ability and the seemingly large knowledge the narrator has, he never shows up in the house, as if hiding his presence from the other inhabitants.
Given the fact that the narrator is a separate character, knows a LOT about the underworld, is an old man, and is actively hiding himself, I have a strange feeling that the narrator is ACTUALLY Kronos the Titan, who was chopped-up by his kids and banished into the underworld. It would explain why he seemingly can't show his face in the house and why he knows SO MUCH about the underworld (he's been there since forever). Also, a nail in the coffin is the fact that in the entire game, we've seen gods constantly use disembodied voice communication (all the Olympians do it when you pick up a boon), but they all require some sort of conduit/connection (as evidenced by them all complaining that getting messages to Zagreus seems difficult and they often have to resort to less than savory means such as using Charon).
The ONLY god who seems to be able to talk "directly" to Zagreus without any need for conduits is his Dad Hades AND the Narrator.
It's a connection that I can't just pass off as mere coincidence.
Counter-point: The Underworld is Hades' domain and the Olympians are far away, meaning Hades probably has an easier time contacting Zagreus (if Zag were to ever leave the Underworld, perhaps, the Olypmians can just talk to him with little issue).
shadow dune
Cronus does get referenced, directly or not, a decent handful of times, and I was full on expecting to have a direct encounter, but that narrator theory is interesting
dense sparrow
it is known that the narrator is the old man's bust, a poet of ancient greece
vapid parcel
well i think it's a bust of the narrator, but idk
dense sparrow
wait, so if this is a Grecian writer, he would be Hellenistic, and must have died, so probably the time in the game would be about 8-6 BC
vapid parcel
well we only know it's a "distinguished poet"
onyx briar
Hi! Without telling me what they are and what their abilities are - do i need to start with earning a specific ??? aspect or can i just play the weapon i want and at some point unlock it without thinking of the other weapons? (i guess having all other 3 aspects at 3&beating the game with the weapon will be one of the requirements?)
dense sparrow
distinguished poets that have connection to mythology : Homer, Hesiod, Apollodorus, Ovid, those all were Hellenistic, no fragments of poetry survived from Mycenae
onyx briar
didnt know where else to ask due to potential spoilers in discussion
dense sparrow
you need Guan Yu Spear first
random basin
it is known that the narrator is the old man's bust, a poet of ancient greece
@dense sparrow Oooh snap. I missed this. Is the Bust in the house?
onyx briar
so ill get my 3 aspects of the spear and then ill get something in the game that helps me figure out how to get the guan yu spear? 🙂
onyx briar
ah thank you!
Allright, ill tab out of the channel due to it being a spoiler channel, but now i know what way to go 🙂 take care
random basin
Ah you're right. It's probably Homer or someone of those ppoets since the narrative framing of the entire game is that the poet is "recounting the tale" to an audience.
So Zagreus is just somehow genre savvy?
LOL
Granted, if this is all a retelling of the tale, I guess the poet's influence is what's making Zagreus genre savvy. This isn't the "real" Zagreus we're playing, it's a Zagreus through the eyes of a poet. This does explain a lot of the stuff mentioned.
bitter vortex
I entertain the idea that the Narrator is Charon solely because it explains his, uh, voicelines
it is known that the narrator is the old man's bust, a poet of ancient greece
Oh well, this is new to me
Out of the window that idea goes
random basin
Yeah I did some research and apparently, when you unlock the Bust and talk to it, the narrator very obviously starts praising the bust
vapid parcel
and zag calls it old man
random basin
Saying that the bust is VERY handsome and depicts someone VERY GOOD AT POETRY.
vapid parcel
like talks to it
random basin
Yeah. Sounds right. So it's likely Homer or something.
It's still odd because that means that, narratively speaking, hades makes "no sense"
Since it causes some timeloop paradox
The poet, who is in the "future" says something narratively to Zagreus, which spurs Zagreus to leave the house, which is the story the narrator is telling.
vapid parcel
i don't think the poet is narrating in the future
he's likely dead so he might actually somehow be there
random basin
No the poet is definitely narrating in the future, since the narrative frame of the game is that the poet is "retelling the tale of zagreus"
As evidenced by the fact that every time you win, he says "oh but we'll save that part for another time. Let's just pretend he died this time."
dense sparrow
from the poet, we can likely say that the time is the Greek Golden Age, when Athens and Sparta were fighting
vapid parcel
the "win" thing i'd not count, cause that's early access
but like, the retelling i guess is a thing
i totally forgot about that
random basin
Like I understand it's early access, but SG could have given an infinite other amount of reasons for Zagreus to die at that point
But they deliberately chose to frame it this way.
vapid parcel
well, there are a lot of different reasons, so id say it's more of a funny thing, like the renovations
random basin
Sure but even at the start of the game, the narrator does explicitly say that he's retelling a tale. HM
vapid parcel
yeah i know, as i said i forgot about that ^^;
random basin
Sorry that was more me telling myself
vapid parcel
but then that is really weird
random basin
Yeah. Since the narrator seemingly spurs events that happen in the story but is also retelling it.
vapid parcel
tbh i imagine that the narrator is there when the game happens, but does re-tell the story later
random basin
Yeah
vapid parcel
that would make sense of everything
vapid parcel
same hat
random basin
He's a character within the story AND is retelling it in the future.
As for WHICH poet I think @dense sparrow has some better insights. I don't knoe enough about my Greco-Roman history
vapid parcel
i don't really want to speculate on that, mostly bc it only says poet, so the field is very wide
i personally think homer would be too obvious but like, that's just me xD
random basin
Fair. Homer would be too obvious
vapid parcel
idk how well known homer was in the olden times, but it says will be famous so
dense sparrow
but then SGG try to be Homerous and name the poet Schelemeus
dull nymph
need a little help, i'm a bit stuck with nyx and chaos quest
i bought the 8888 darkness contract and met nyx in chaos realm
but since then nyx is missing in the house of hades and i can't progress further
wiki said that should be it, but am i missing something?
vapid parcel
you should be able to talk to either her or chaos but i'm not sure
did you try giving them ambrosia yet?
ancient hemlock
Hi ? Could someone give me a little tip about how to get the new companion ? If there is trully a new one
eternal breach
⭐ Slow and Steady ⭐ did my own game just diss me
ancient hemlock
Im alright with just a character name or little information
eternal breach
cant help you with that one, havent gotten it yet and trying not to spoil myself
ancient hemlock
np
clear oracle
How to unlock the new compantion: ||Talking to Patroclus and Achilles is a good start.||
ancient hemlock
ty mate
clear oracle
NP!
hushed dome
how to unlock rama bow?
clear oracle
check the pins on this channel!
opal dagger
so what are the requirements to fighting charon? it feels like you have to do something specific for it to become available?
primal cipher
It's just random at any mid area store
It's not super likely, I usually see it offered every 2-3 runs
plain palm
i've seen something about around 20% chance
lapis smelt
Fun fact... I think I've killed Theseus and Asterius so many times that Theseus is afraid of me. LMAO. The dialogue is pretty hilarious.
spiral pond
why did my last heart of charon just deleted itself
eternal breach
UAAAAA
i just got hades'd after i took 70% of his health down on one life
gotta say though full in your face What Is Special ORAORAORA malphon was pretty fun
I wouldve been fine if i didnt get gigantic vermin'd
shadow dune
The saytre venom gets he every time
regal schooner
currently trying to get past six hearts with achilles... is there a specific event to trigger it? I've already spent about four hours on runs just to find patroclus and throw nectar at him
junior field
just talk to Patty
regal schooner
ty
primal cipher
Is there anyone special I need to do for Cerberus to complete his hearts? I pet him after every run
open berry
nope thats it
need a minimum number of pets
though i think the amount actually got dropped between beta and official update drop
primal cipher
Cool thanks! Does it work if I pet him several times between a run or just keep going how I am and it'll happen eventually?
outer thicket
Ok, so how do I unlock the 4th weapon aspects besides sword, spear, and fists?
I can't figure it out
thorny surge
fists aren't in yet
the other three have the same requirements than the sword but applied to their respective weapons
outer thicket
I know, but what are the requirements for them? I don't know how the sword was unlocked
thorny surge
having invested five units of titan blood on the respective weapon + guan yu unlocked
open berry
aspect requirements are all pinned to this channel
outer thicket
Oh sweet
eternal breach
Hades: BLASTED BOY WE SHOULD HAVE NEVER SPRUNG FROM CHAOS
Me, who was holding the Chaos egg: GASP
Me, putting my palms on the egg so chaos cant hear: GASP
onyx briar
So i feel like im a bit stupid. Both for the spear legendary aspect and for skelly i have all requirements that i looked up done. I have 5 blood invested in spear aspects and skelly up all the way as far as possible and now his progress cant be furthered with nectar any longer. So since then i have done 5 runs - including one with spear to hades and neither has achilles talked to me about the spear, nor has skelly asked me to slay him with the zagreus +5 sword
what am i missing? 😦
fathom current
(Arti) Hehehehehehe
Tasdilan: It's a secret boon you gotta obtain outside the game
It's called "RNGesus' blessing"
onyx briar
can i just keep doing runs as i feel or do i have to keep doing more spear runs if i want achilles to talk to me about the legendary aspect?
because ive done like 3 runs with spear to hades today already
😦
open tiger
You shouldn't need to use the spear
onyx briar
hm ok, thanks for your help 😦
open tiger
o7 best of luck!
fathom current
Literally
open tiger
Hahaha
tawdry saffron
do we need to gift charon up to be able to fight him or no
open tiger
Shouldn't need to
delicate kiln
Is there any significance to the sun dial only showing 7:48? Is this some easter egg that went over my head?
hollow garden
that's probably because its poking fun at the fact that no one knows if its day or night in the Underworld
so its placed at a value that's kinda right inbetween :p
there's a plethora of voice lines that mention uncertainty of the time
tired hemlock
it's a bit odd to me that the underworld gods are so perplexed by the time
open tiger
No sun
hollow garden
no sun'll do that to you
open tiger
And not even "they don't remember the sun anymore", most of them have no concept of the sun other than hearsay
cloud geode
I know the gods sleep but do the shades also sleep? They dead so they don't necessarily have the ability to sleep or even feel tired
tired hemlock
Sure but then they should not have a concept of day/night either yet they mention it all the time
cloud geode
it's like when during summer holidays you never know what day it is while during school season you know precisely today is day/month/year
to me
i guess hades knows what is like outside
At this point only zag is oblivious
and maybe hypnos? Does he go outside to put people to sleep or is just his existence what makes people sleep without direct interference?
open tiger
Also Meg and the Furies, I don't think they get out
cloud geode
no they do get out, remember the reason Alect and Tisi aren't immediately fightable is because they were busy on the surface with the war
open tiger
I actually didn't remember that xD
cloud geode
Nyx is the night and her parent is chaos so maybe she also knows?
Charon probably saw a few glimpses from outside the temple but he has no buisness in the surface so he kinda doesn't know either...
idk about nyx and hypnos
eternal breach
I just like to think Than has a major beef with the sun
open tiger
He does complain about it
eternal breach
Its the 'old man yells at cloud' article but 'local edgelord hisses at the sun'
cloud geode
with that skin?
get some suncream dude
there's a reason people near the equator have darker skin
it rhymes with famine
eternal breach
Zag: Come on, Than! The faster you'll levitate, the sooner we'll hit some shade!
The pile of black robes, straw hats and sunglasses: hsssss
cloud geode
at least they can not touch the ground hhhhh
ashen latch
Tbh the House is 100% the type of family that all sits under the shade while Zag plays on the beach with Cerberus
Hades: look at him, enjoying the sun. I can scarce believe he’s my son
open tiger
No no no! Chaos joins Zag!
eternal breach
Zag, who is getting ridiculously sunburnt but will grasp at any straws of annoying his dad: THATS RIGHT IM NOT LIKE YOU IN ANY WAY
open tiger
<-- Zag at the sun
ashen latch
Tfw you literally never experienced sunlight before
And immediately go for the beach
tired hemlock
I imagine zag would not tan cuz he is fire resistant
eternal breach
Fire resistant yes but also cthonic so i have a feeling he has... In interesting relationship with the sun
Please do not die during a heatwave: you will make than suffer
eternal breach
Hello Chaos making the seawater starry
eternal breach
Zag is just messing with the water and suddenly a white arm rises out of it and splashes him
tired hemlock
I expect the surface to be in a frozen state as a whole, demeter is pretty pissed with the mortals
eternal breach
Sshhh lemme have my pool party bs
ashen latch
“Your enjoyment or lack thereof regarding the contents of the world I created pleases me young Hades. Continue to enjoy it or do not, I’m simply happy to spend more time with you under less extenuating circumstances” Chaos
open tiger
Nah, this is a beach AU, Dem can burn off
eternal breach
Poseidon also engages in friendly splashing of the zag
open tiger
"splashing"
ashen latch
Imagine Zag’s reaction when he sees a school of fish for the first time
eternal breach
Than's toe touches the water. He immediately hisses and gets away
open berry
its funny its mentioned the house is a family that sits in the shade bc i do like to think that like, thanatos and hypnos for instance, are just inherently more susceptible to the sun. i want underworld gods to have a natural strength drain on the surface, the severity of which just depends on the god. like it affects hades considerably less than hypnos.
eternal breach
Thanatos canon has this
open berry
yeah thats whats inspired it
eternal breach
maybe its less severe during the night
ashen latch
Tbf Hades came from the surface originally. During the Titian war none of the 6 gods had any particular domains
open berry
i just wanted to extend it to the underworld as a whole, or maybe nyx's children or something, opposed to just than himself. esp with hypnos, they're twins
eternal breach
Zagreus probably tanks the surface better than other cthonics due to his heritage
ashen latch
Like Hades became the god of the underworld through conquest
While Nyx was born as primordial night
With her children embodying death, sleep, etc
eternal breach
I think all of Nyxes chirren could have this issue
open tiger
Alright, I gtg. Nice chatting with y'all!
eternal breach
Buhbyee
ashen latch
👋
tired hemlock
In mytholgy i they are minor deites so maybe a bit different/weaker than the olympians and hades
eternal breach
Thought: someone finds Than sick from the surface and offers him water
Wouldnt say weaker
Hell, the fates are nyx's children
tired hemlock
Not sure about the difference but there was always a distinction when refering to them
ashen latch
It’s less of a case of them being a weaker and more about being less popular in the eyes of the worshipers
Like Pan was super fearsome in combat and drove his enemies into outright insanity with his scream (the panic) but he was a super niche god
With few temples, being worshiped more in open green spaces
Contrast that with Hermes who had idolatry built across major roadsides
open berry
hypnos in myth is actually quite powerful, and acknowledged as much
ashen latch
Yeah, like Nyx’s children are far closer to the primordial gods than the Olympian ones
As they more literally embody their roles
open berry
yeah
which agitates me all the more hypnos is portrayed as he is here but thats another topic lol
ashen latch
Tbh Hypnos being mild mannered is kinda cute though
Wait, what if Hades keeps him in the house because he’s too big a risk
Like him being so relaxed all the time would affect people more in a place further away from Hades or Nyx
Like if Hypnos is anywhere near as strong as his brother, he could put all of Tartarus to sleep if he went on a stroll
That would kill productivity
open berry
its not him being mild mannered that bothers me, its that hes treated as lazy and incompetent because he sleeps all the time. like, yes. he is literally the incarnation of sleep, that is kinda his job, just as fetching the dead is than's bc he is death incarnate
ashen latch
Ah, fair enough
tired hemlock
That goes back to the question, do shades sleep?
open berry
everyone is just so unnecessarily mean to hypnos because he has issues keeping up with work and my own bias aside, it just bothers me that even zag joins in on it, when he goes out of his way to get into everyone else's business and help solve their problems
tired hemlock
I think eurydice mentions she does not sleep
ashen latch
Yeah, there was a convo where she mentioned she just sings and cooks for fun
For a vast majority of her day
echo orbit
Contrast that with Hermes who had idolatry built across major roadsides
According to some sources, Hermes could be an offshoot of the original form of Pan, along with the proto-Vedic deity Pushan.
Makes sense in a way, considering that travel and thieves rely on the cover of the wilderness and civilization required travel through untamed lands that could result in injury, robbery or death
The idea of the gods having strength depending on proximity to their domain is a cool idea
Which explains why Zagreus is consistently strong if he's the god of blood
drifting citrus
just got a conversation with thanatos that basically said that than's teleport is the same as zag's dash, but he's just really good at it
and now everything makes sense
open tiger
Huh
drifting citrus
they called it a shift
open berry
i pointed this out before and no one seemed to think it was interesting at the time haha that zag's dash is essentially his attempt at teleporting
i thought it was interesting
autumn void
yeah, it's a cool tidbit
drifting citrus
"i could never shift more than a blade's length in front of me, but you can go across the world" is basically what zag said
open berry
yes
that about lines up with how far he can dash
so im inclined to think thats what the dash is meant to represent
drifting citrus
give than the zagspect sword
eternal breach
Do you think zag ever got stuck in a wall when he was just starting out with his shifts
ashen latch
Tbh he also mentioned in the archives that he can’t properly get the teleportation magic hades uses to work for him
His dash is him trying his best
eternal breach
Elder sigil is smth else i think
open berry
it also explains why zag can dash through things, if its his attempted teleportation
eternal breach
teleports behind than
teleports behind zag
teleports behind than
teleports behind zag
ashen latch
Imagine Hades trying to teach him to teleport
Hades: it’s like opening a doorway, focus breath and -
Zagreus: yeets himself through a wall and pops out the other side
eternal breach
NOTHING PERSONAL KIDDO
vapid parcel
i'm not over teleporting baby!than
autumn void
would handily explain the i-frame timing, too. well, better than dark souls-esque "you're just rolling really fast"
leaden epoch
nothin personnel
eternal breach
Beby Zag: gets stuck in a locked door he was trying to sneak behind
Zag:
Zag: mOm
ashen latch
Tbh Zag as a baby dashing through doors must have been a pain
Imagine not being able to trust doors
vapid parcel
he was apparently very good at it
he could always do it
HOW STRESSFUL MUST THAT HAVE BEEN
babies are already stressful
Imagine you're baby f-ing teleporting
eternal breach
Then please consider: he'a good at it and doesn't fail it but he couldn't exactly control it every time
Hypnos would scare than and than would teleport to wherever the heck
autumn void
yeah like, non-teleporting babies already can disappear in the blink of an eye
than was just an outlandish nightmare version of this
vapid parcel
yeah
eternal breach
than teleporting out of awkward situations
ashen latch
Tbh Nyx raising Zag + his adopted siblings must have been super stressful
vapid parcel
as someone who works with children? My worst nightmare
than teleporting out of awkward situations
this just happens when you give him ambrosia xD
ashen latch
Zag also has like burning feet, so he would ruin anything he crawled on
Imagine him teleporting on a shelf and setting it on fire
eternal breach
Baby zag just setting everything on fire
THOUGHT
Zag's feet not burning when he's asleep
Just like, softly kindling
vapid parcel
😭
eternal breach
They burn with higher intensity when he's feeling something strong
Same goes for his laurel
Cause somehow i have a feeling its a part of him and not something he can take off
open berry
yeah the ingame dialogue has than stating that he was apparently good at shifting from the start. so. yknow. overachiever
eternal breach
Baby than taking a sip of nyxs coffee and zapping across the house
vapid parcel
oh no
ashen latch
Turns out he was always elusive
Just for different reasons
Even as a baby he left a trail of chaos in his wake
eternal breach
Hypnos dear child of mine please subdue your brother
vapid parcel
honestly i imagine he uses it to get out of bad sensory situations a lot
almost on instinct
ashen latch
Maybe that’s why Thanatos is so good at finding him. He’s used to Zag’s insane escapades
open berry
more twins hc's, since than was always a natural at shifting, i choose to believe hypnos can do it as well, like actually teleport somewhere, unlike zag, its just that it took way more effort for him to learn and he doesnt do it much bc it saps a lot of his energy bc of the fact hes not good at it. than is constantly scolding him about it
eternal breach
Who's feeling twins headca- shou get out of my head-
open berry
:)
vapid parcel
honestly i don't think than would like, care about that? hypnos doesn't need to teleport to do his job after all
vapid parcel
i know i just meant like, than only ever scolds hypnos in regards of his job yk
eternal breach
Not to project my older brother into this but than trying to give hypnos advice on it but you can just tell hes frustrated with hypnos and hypnos is just sad about it
ashen latch
Tbh Thanatos and Hypnos being older could make sense actually. Zagreus in this version rather than being the literal prior incarnation to Dionysus is a relatively young god
open berry
[through tears] hypnos angst.... we love to see it............
eternal breach
Wait ill make up for it
open berry
than and hypnos are absolutely way older than zag
eternal breach
rummaging through bag
ashen latch
If he’s Dio’s age he would be among the youngest gods around. Up there with Dio and Hermes
open berry
than even mentions he knew of persephone, saw her, knew what she looked like. zag has never been aware of his own mother. theres no way to tell how much older than zag the twins are but they are definitely way older
ashen latch
They 100% babysat Zag tbh
At some point Hypnos and Thanatos had to care of a teleporting baby with fire feet
open berry
than and hypnos arent the same level of primordial being as nyx but they are in some respects a bit. above in stature in that regard
vapid parcel
i don't think than has the time xD
ashen latch
Yeah depending on version Thanatos and Hypnos were far closer to the primordial gods than the Olympian ones
eternal breach
Inhale
ashen latch
Due to how they literally embody respective domains
open berry
hypnos and tiny zag napping together hypnos and tiny zag napping together though as cute as that is it just makes me more sad about how they barely even have a friendship in the game
ashen latch
Give Hypnos more lines 😢
eternal breach
Speaking of twin headcanons, how about... A link
Im not saying a full on Psychic Twins Link tm, no telepathy or any of that stuff, but maybe being able to sense some things about the other, or having a bad gut feeling when something bad happens to the other, that sort of thing
Hypnos also finding it very easy to mess with than's dreams, though he uses this exclusively to make them pleasant
open berry
despite how prickly than is, esp on the topic of his brother and not getting work done, im def believe if hypnos were in any actual, legitimate danger, than would be one of the first ones to go after him
eternal breach
hypnos dreamsharing with than because he gets to be with his brother who otherwise doesnt have time for him
open berry
oof smash my heart why dont you
vapid parcel
i mean, than is very bad with people and emotions, lbr
eternal breach
The sledgehammer just appeared in my hands im sORRY
autumn void
not entirely. i kind of liked than's thoughtful perspective toward zag's inclination to go ahead and help people mostly based on what he thought should be the resolution
vapid parcel
i honestly love how like, a suprising amount of main characters are neurodiverse-coded? like zag than and hyonos are just baby 😭
ashen latch
Tbh I want an entire Hypnos convo tree that’s literally him and Zag being nostalgic
Seeing as you bump into him so often
open berry
i just wish hypnos wasnt constantly berated and treated so badly over things that could be solved if people talked to him and helped him, rather than comment on how he cant do anything right
leaden epoch
Honestly Tatz, it seems like no one in the house of hades is particularly good at healthy communication.
It's the root of a lot of problems.
open berry
it really shouldnt take ||a lengthy quest line between the brothers where zag says from the start hes mean to hypnos (for no reason???)|| for this to happen
eternal breach
Hey, Hypnos being really good at making people open up to him. It's some sort of light hypnosis, but its just the kind that makes the other person more relaxed and feel safe
And he just takes them aside and asks whats wrong
Ok hypnos as a therapist is not smth i thought ill need
But i like this hill
open berry
@leaden epoch i'm aware, and most of us are, i just have issues with this specifically due to zag's part in it
still really salty about that line about ||"i'll talk to hypnos so no one else has to"|| literally what the hell man
autumn void
oh what i don't remember that line but yeah that's really... ow
leaden epoch
YEAH, it's pretty harsh
open berry
its someething new that got added in the update thats supposed to be early game dialogue
eternal breach
It just feels out of character for zag
ashen latch
Hades modern AU be like:
Zagreus: I think I want to move out of town for college and maybe reconnect with my birth mother
Hades: flips table
Thanatos: disappears into his room
Meg: convinces her sisters that Zag is no good
Hypnos: stuck in the middle
Nyx: actually helps him move
open berry
it came up for me during beta and i immediately just lost the mood to play because its so unnecessarily mean-spirited, and the fact zag is participating in it really makes me disappointed in him
open tiger
XD
autumn void
yeah that's like, malicious adolescent cliquey vibes almost
open tiger
Yup
autumn void
and why would zag be like that?
open tiger
Oof
open berry
i have been wanting to rant about this since the beta LOL
eternal breach
Dont test me or i will whip out modern zag au bs
open tiger
Luckily, the past couple feedbacks about Hypnos were really popular
open berry
like i am fully aware i am biased to hypnos and i acknowledge that im more likely to examine things differently but surely it can be agreed that everyone is weirdly mean to hypnos for no reason. and after that line it kinda forced me to re-examine zag's remarks to hypnos's death quips. where i had thought before he was humouring hypnos, now that line just. throws all of that in a different light
autumn void
no you're totally right, i feel
ashen latch
Tbh more Hypnos dialogue tbh
autumn void
it gets to the point of being just huh
leaden epoch
Eh, IDK, I think Hypnos says some pretty thoughtless things to Zag and doesn't show him much consideration. Or, that was my impression. Especially after you die to the bull and he asks you to get his autograph
I can see why Zag would be really frustrated with Hypnos
autumn void
like, the actual only thing to justify frustration towards him is poor work ethic. but even then, it shouldn't be just being plain mean to him, and that frustration needs to turn into understanding with him, talking with him about it etc.
open berry
being frustrated with someone isnt a valid excuse though
autumn void
it really does remind me of times growing up where i'd see certain kids relegated to the role of "annoying person who means well but we're mean to them for fun" and i don't like that
i don't think it is a valid excuse though
open berry
no i was replying to nym haha
autumn void
oh my bad
open berry
being frustrated with how someone acts isnt a good excuse to being needlessly cruel toward them
eternal breach
Like even if i can see that hypnos could be annoying to others that line is still so mean
Even then
Like
:(
open berry
the biggest thing is the fact zag goes out of his way for everyone else, so for him to participate in digging at hypnos out of frustration is immensely disappointng
eternal breach
I legit paused when i was playing
leaden epoch
I'm torn on it, obviously I don't think it justifies being mean towards Hypnos, but Hypnos doesn't inspire much sympathy by putting no effort into thoughtless 'Motivation.' If you hurt someone through thoughtless actions, you still hurt them.
eternal breach
Thats true
leaden epoch
I think, though, Zag is probably being a bit more cruel with his words/actions.
open berry
@autumn void if you hadnt had it pop up for whatever reason ||https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/357344472880644118/726937749617246278/why_are_they_like_this.jpg||
eternal breach
^
autumn void
OH i did get that dialogue, i guess i just forgot about it. i mostly remembered ||dusa mentioning she chats with him when she literally has no other choice, which also felt not great to hear||
eternal breach
;w;
leaden epoch
I can see why Dusa wouldn't get along with Hypnos. Hypnos is kind of a slacker and was given his position probably without earning it if his performance is any indication. Dusa had to work really hard to get to where she is and is under pressure to continue working hard.
I bet she can't stand seeing Nyx be hands off with Hypnos when he sucks at his job while she's so strict and hands on with her.
Hypnos is the spoiled rich kid who gets everything handed to him and Dusa is the girl who clawed her way up from poverty with hard work, metaphorically speaking.
bleak pendant
Yo real question, does Hades ever NOT deny a shade's claim
leaden epoch
Sometimes.
open tiger
Though Than has mentioned that Hypnos could still lose his job
vapid parcel
plus the only reason nyx is hands off is "so hypnos will learn responsibility"
by leaving him without any support and not talking to him
open tiger
And he is getting better
eternal breach
I don't think hypnos is spoiled
vapid parcel
i think what nym meant is he can seem spoile
open tiger
I think it could look like that to an outsider
eternal breach
True
open tiger
But I agree that he isn't
open berry
i just dont understand the purpose in portraying a character in the main hub this way. these are all characters you're largely supposed to get along with (other than hades ofc lol), like okay if you want to portray hypnos as lazy and stuff, fine, but actually address that and dont have the rest of the characters be so. ugly about it. its just so disjointed with everything else. zag is kind and helps everyone, and then there's hypnos, who everyone has a problem with. why do this
eternal breach
@ sgg :(
open berry
its just incredibly disappointing getting more hypnos dialogue and seeing more and more of how hes just. there. he just exists and people scoff at him. even zag.
eternal breach
I genuinely hoped to be able to become friends with him
open berry
even the end of his gifting dialogue leaves their relationship ambiguous as always, ||and hypnos sounds so desperately hopeful that zag will be his friend||
in a game so full of great narrative, this all feels like a mess
leaden epoch
Yeah, when you compare his development to just about anyone else it really feels a little hollow. There's got to be better ways to explore his situation. Like, Hypnos is isolated because, in a house full of hard working, dedicated people (Achilles, Hades, Nyx, Dusa, Thanatos) he's the only person who is slacking for no good reason
And Maybe exploring that idea a bit more, why he's like this, how he got so lonely that he's practically begging Zag to be his best friend, and perhaps showing him actually getting on better with the rest of the house and doing his job would be more fulfilling and feel more fleshed out
atomic forge
OLA
leaden epoch
Every other character has a much deeper storyline and development.
atomic forge
KABULOSOS
eternal breach
Hypnos is starting to remind me of me and i dont know if i like that
open berry
agreed. and there is the fact i pointed out a month ago or so that hypnos never even refers to zag in any sort of familiar way. just about everyone has some way they refer to zag, his name, a nickname, something. even alecto and theseus use negative names that specifically refer to him. hypnos doesn't, and it adds to how disconnected he feels in the house compared to everyone else.
eternal breach
Maybe not exactly doing his job but others accepting that he can't match to their pace w it, and that its okay, i mean, hes sleep, its not his fault he keeos falling asleep
Yeah hypnos has always just felt... Sorta there and thats it
open berry
anyway i need to go do some stuff for a bit, but as always i appreciate people indulging me with my frustrations bc sometimes its like, do i take issue with this because i know im biased and want to see more, or is there actually some kind of issue here with the narrative aspect?
eternal breach
I getcha
Im gonna take that as my get out of jail card and finally go to sleep
Good night, everyone
Will say hello to hypnos for you
leaden epoch
I never would have looked at Hypnos this way if you hadn't pointed it out, but...now that you point it out, it does seem a little weak
So no, it's not just you 😛
eternal breach
^
open berry
🙌 love yall thank u for having these discussions with me
eternal breach
Honestly same hat because hypnos is one of my favourite greek gods and i needed to knoe if its not just me who wants the ebst for the boyi
echo marsh
how much titan's blood does the new shield aspect cost?
echo orbit
Should be 3 Titan's Blood to unlock
After that I'm not sure what it is to upgrade
Has there been any mention of Than and Hypnos having other siblings?
echo marsh
do i have to offer chaos more nectar to get it? because i have only offered it to get his keepsake?
i already have 5 titan's blood
upbeat willow
it's invest 5 blood into the weapon (in this case shield); have GY unlocked
supple dagger
damn, I'm late to the Hypnos discussion. I'd think Hypnos would be a literal narcoleptic with some attention deficit on the side.
@echo orbit if you mean that were birthed by Nyx, someone clarified to me that Charon is apparently a son of hers as well. if you mean of any relation, Nyx also adopted the Fury Sisters: Megaera, Alecto, and Tisiphone.
ashen latch
Nyx raising 7 kids sounds like an amazing little prequel story
echo orbit
I do remember Charon is a son of Nyx as well yes. I'm just interested about other possible children like the Oneiroi, Eris, Nemesis, etc
ashen latch
Tbh a lot of people are mentioned in passing or not mentioned at all
Apollo is like name dropped maybe twice
supple dagger
OH YEAH, I think she's also the mother of the Fates.
ashen latch
Damn, I forgot. Make that 10 kids
supple dagger
I kinda hope Nyx has/had a sister who was "Day Incarnate" or "Light Incarnate" who happens to be with the Olympians or the mortals.
open berry
nyx has a lot of kids depending on what works you're looking at https://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Nyx.html#Family
ashen latch
She does have a son with Erebus who is that
supple dagger
Erebus (in the game) is a place that can be traveled to, either through alternate paths or ||Charon||.
ashen latch
And a daughter
Like Aether and Hemera embody the far sky and daylight respectively
Light literally born form darkness
Sure, but primordial entities in Hades are also locations just like in Greek myth seemingly
supple dagger
I thought it'd be interesting if they mentioned Hemera as a person and Aether as a place, like how Nyx is a person and Erbeus is a place.
ashen latch
Nyx retains her qualities of being both a god and the house of night
I wouldn’t put it past Tartarus and Erebus to have corporeal forms
That said, I doubt SSG will touch on it
Seeing as they are pretty happy with what gods and other mythical figures we already have atm
supple dagger
Ending discovered: ||Persephone's in Aether|| theory unlocked
topaz brook
So I don't have to tag spoilers in here right?
I want to gush about something but don't know if I should tag it
I see some people tagging things?
open berry
its a lot of us being ingrained to be mindful and tag stuff, esp in the general hades discussion, but spoilers are allowed here
topaz brook
...I'll be on the safe side
||oh my god Tisiphone said Zag's name!!!! Awww!||
||this whole dynamic is so weirdly heartwarming||
ashen latch
|| Zag got that wholesome energy with the sisters, even Alecto ||
topaz brook
I made a meme a couple weeks ago that neatly encapsulates what I like about Zag.
hollow mortar
@topaz brook I'm sorry but I will have to delete it because of rule N°2 
supple dagger
The progression with Tisiphone learning a new word, ||Zagreus' name||, is very cute and while I don't expect anything new past that point, it was nice of them to do that. Now, if they ever decide to progress it further, I expect it to change from "||Murder/Murderer||" to "||Zagreus is a Murderer.||"
hollow mortar
I'd extend the spoiler tags to cover from "...with" so it doesn't spoil anything from that part 
supple dagger
remembering the conversation about what the last aspect for the Twin Fists could be, having something like the Aspect of Horus, where the fists are talons could make the gameplay interesting, in that instead of "punches," Zagreus is constantly "clawing" at enemies and in doing so, the attacks could either be "heavy (slow)" or "light (fast)." Not sure what Special would be.
ashen latch
Yesss!