#h1-story-discussion

1 messages · Page 9 of 1

zenith wedge
#

It happens across multiple runs

#

The more you defeat them the more Theseus goes "Asterius are we really friends/why are you so friendly with this dude"

#

Ends up in Asterius "my king our bond is unbreakable" (really bad summary)

warm crescent
#

Yea… I guess I haven’t gotten to that yet.

patent acorn
#

And then when you go back to normal heroes the dialogue happens

jagged citrus
#

now she keeps showing in the longue, but still no new unique ones, and certainly not the one in chamber

trim crescent
#

Wait so is persephone dmiter’s daughter and since dmiter (or however you spell that name) is zeus’ sister and since hades is zeus’ brother doesnt that make persephone hades’ niece?

zenith wedge
#

Demeter here is a foster sister of zeus

true harness
trim crescent
#

okay

#

phew

warm crescent
#

I don’t think there are any triggers with any characters, though Sisyphus will talk about her. However, he isn’t a key character to maxing her affinity gauge.

jagged citrus
#

not yet

warm crescent
# jagged citrus not yet

||Ok, well play the game and eventually you can gift her ambrosia if you maxed her affinity gauge beforehand. If you talked to her enough times you’ll meet her again in Zag’s bedroom for the first time. Once you fulfill her favor, she states that she’s “collecting her things”, the affinity gauge will expand to 3 hearts with an arrow shaped like a heart extending it.||

warm crescent
rough flax
#

anyone have the clip of hypnos asking zagreus to talk to thanatos?

#

the one that starts his favor

supple walrus
#

does he actually ask him to? i thought he just says "what if thanatos doesn't like me anymore??" after being scolded and zagreus is like "oh no i should speak to than about this"

mortal dune
#

I think he does

#

I can’t remember the exact moment but I imagine there must be some inciting incident

#

The wiki says he does so it does exist

#

Yeah I think it's this one

clear bluff
#

So what exactly was the deal with Nyx and Dusa? || She did everything right, but she did it too well so she had to be fired? ||

mortal dune
#

yeah it’s not really all that clever is it

#

The idea is that ||Nyx thought Dusa was working too hard, and subsequently fired her so she could take a break. Supposedly. The story beforehand was that she fired Dusa for speaking to Zagreus (who was above her station), but I assume they felt that would make Nyx too unlikeable and toned it down.||

#

It’s my least favorite story arc in the whole game cuz it’s rather half-baked

pseudo stump
#

Wasn't the issue that Dusa wasn't listening to Nyx?

mortal dune
#

Ehh sort-of?

pseudo stump
#

Heck so quick a reply

mortal dune
#

The thing she was most chastised for regarding obeying Nyx was just, conversing and being friendly with Zag

#

If you follow the narrative one beat after the other

mortal dune
#

Coming from someone who’s least favorite character is Thanatos, outside of my own personal gripes with him he’s also a surprisingly flat character

#

I was thinking about all the folks in the House of Hades and whatnot and I feel like Than’s rarity in appearance, meant to highlight his presence as valuable and to be coveted, ironically stunts his characterization and the dynamics he has, both with Zag and everyone else he interacts with

#

His frequent absence from the narrative is a significant part of his characterization, in that it supports his dedication to his job, his sense of responsibility, his aloofness and even his rudeness- I point this out because it’s inextricable from how he was written.

However, him being so rarely found within the House also limits a significant number of his conversations to being between him and Zagreus only, which in turn limits him from interacting with other characters, or with changes in his environment, thusly rendering him more two-dimensional than I imagine would be liked.

#

Additionally, a majority if not all of his relationships with the other characters either presents an unequal power dynamic and/or outright animosity.

He is deferential to Hades and Nyx (and later Persephone but only in their one/two interactions), he’s mean to Hypnos and Zag, he’s dismissive of Dusa, and he hardly talks to Achilles. The only character I remember him interacting with as an equal is Megaera, and even those interactions are few and far between, and tinted by their individual relationships to Zag (in that it’s not easy to extrapolate their relationship outside of their disappointment/romances with Zagreus. There’s definitely still something there, just very little.)

#

This, with the context of his already rare interactions (and even rarer non-Zag interactions), makes it so that a significant number of his narrative beats present him with negative and/or passive character traits.

#

Compare this to his closest equal in narrative significance, Megaera: despite her negative traits, Meg has a number of satisfactory explanations for her behavior, as well positive/dynamic relationships outside of Zagreus, that round her out.

#

Though she’s mean/cold to Zagreus (and tends to stubbornly misinterpret his character/intentions), it is satisfactorily justified because of the way he hurt her in the past, and because of how she was tasked to be responsible for his more reckless/disobedient/spoilt behavior (thereby making it something she is especially attuned/sensitive to).

She also has a steady and sweet friendship with Dusa (showing a side of her outside of her interactions with Zag/Zag’s perspective), an established history + storyline about her and her sisters (giving her a compelling background/arc), and a number of lighthearted interactions with characters like Hypnos that are not spurred on by Zagreus or by any set obligation/power dynamic.

mortal dune
#

Comparitively, Than’s relationships outside of Zagreus are either:

  • Work-related and thereby impersonal (Hades and Persephone), making them un-indicative of any particular trait of his outside of diligent or hard-working, etc.

  • Deferential, like he is to his Mother Nyx, portraying him as more submissive to those he respects and thereby more passive; his deference to Nyx does not serve to individualize him nor grant him agency and as such is not an especially constructive trait. (His deferential attitude towards Hades and his acts of rebellion against Hades with regards to helping Zagreus are a different matter)

  • Antagonistic/abusive, like he is with Hypnos (and Zag but we’re not talking about him)

  • Dismissive (and I’d argue vaguely classist) like he is with Dusa

  • Hardly notable, like with Achilles or Charon (and surprisingly, Sisyphus, considering their myth).

#

Him being absent from the story for as much as he means there’s just not as much for him to work with, and what is there doesn’t much serve to round him out as a deep (and, in my opinion, interesting) character. The only real dynamic narrative beat he gets is his growing relationship with Zag, and the only dynamic, interesting character trait he has only presents itself within that context (him defying Hades to help Zag escape, and how he disregards his own feelings on the matter).

#

And even *that * presents him in a negative light, because of his behavior and attitude throughout a majority of it!

supple walrus
#

as someone who does like thanatos, i mostly agree.

wish we'd have seen some growth in his relations with sisiphus and dusa. would also have been great for sisyphus' characterisation, because he says he's changed from how he was when he was alive, but we don't really see that. him acknowledging what he did to than and the effects this had on him would round both out. i sort of felt the game was at least partly implying that incident being formative to than's work ethic and general additude but i think 90% of that may be projection and headcanon on my part.

i disagree that he's not a well rounded character due to his relationships and behavior being presented negatively though. some people just don't get along with others or don't care to or can't. i felt that him being sort of distant with pretty much everyone and mean to pretty much everyone he isn't distant with is just... consistent, i guess?

i also disagree with the megaera comparison but i can't form a coherent thought around that rn so i'll leave it be

mortal dune
#

The reason his relationships make him a flat character to me is that they give him little attachment to the world. We learn very little about him through his relationships, and often what we *do * learn paints him in a bad light. Even if it is consistent, it’s not deep, y’know?

#

Also, with him being a romanceable option, I figure he should at least be likeable? If that makes sense? Like, I know people love him regardless, but pulling away from that, the fact that a huuge majority of his scenes make him out to be a jerk or to be notably passive (so without significant opinions of his own, or actions taken on his own part) is poor writing akin to like, Twilight or something.

#

Actually Twilight might be an apt example, he’s kinda like Edward Cullen in his affect and his treatment of Zag and others, except without any of the absurdity to at least make it funny

supple walrus
#

i've never actually read twilight, but wasn't edward cullen's thing being actually abusive because of love or something?

whereas thanatos is just sort of rude due to insecurity. he also stops being that way with zagreus once their relationship is decided (no matter wether you chose the romance option or not, i think)

mortal dune
#

Yeah Edward Cullen is most well-known for his abusive tendencies, but another notable part of his character writing was his lack of real motivation- they didn't call him a plank o' wood for nothin'. Everything he ever did revolved around Bella- his relationships with his family hardly mattered, and he never really wanted anything for himself outside of a romance with her (and he didn't even really want that either). Edward is like Thanatos taken to the extreme- they're both rude/abusive because they think they know better, they're both detached from the worlds they inhabit, and they're both critically angsty for rather petty reasons. They were also both adored for their aloofness and hidden sensitivity (supposed sensitivity on Edward's front).

Yeah, Than's attitude gets a little better with Zagreus, but only with Zagreus. Most notably at the end of his arc with Hypnos, he's still passive-aggresively critical of him, and outside of Hypnos he never reneges on his attitude towards Dusa. His relationships with Nyx, Hades, and Persephone remain the same, and thusly do not reflect any more character growth. And still he never really gains a real sense of individuality or agency throughout the entire game- he's rewarded for his submissiveness (which is frankly odd considering Zag is rewarded for his defiance)

supple walrus
#

i felt like thanatos is adored more despite his aloofness. the game doesn't portray him as cool and mysterious and attractive because of it, does it? may just be the copium talking here idk (edit: my copium if that wasn't made clear, didn't mean to accuse you of anything)

agree on the lack of character growth and him not really doing anything of his own in the game though. i'd chalk that up to there already being a lot of characters with lots of voice lines in a game that's at the end of the day a game focused on fighting. though fwiw that doesn't make your criticism less valid, of course

frankly, most characters in the game and their relations aren't particularly "deep". they are believable and human and resonate with me though, and that goes for than as well. (tbh all the romance options for me were carried by zagreus just being very enthusiastic about everything)

mortal dune
#

The game deffo wants to portray him as mysterious/unreachable, because a core part of interacting with him is that you simply can't. Like I mentioned, the specific crafting of his appearances to be among the rarest in the game is very purposely meant to make whatever interactions you have with him as covetable as possible. With regards to fan reception, as far as I've seen the majority of his fanart makes him out to be cool, sensitive, and almost foreign to Zagreus (much like, well, Edward Cullen 😅).

I agree that a lot of the characters aren't very deep, the deepest you get is Zagreus and Hades and even they rely on easy-to-digest archetypes at times, but at least the others have an adequate amount of depth to them. Like in my comparison earlier, the reason I specifically chose Megaera was because she's given almost equal narrative significance to Than as the other love interest. They're meant to be equally covetable and as such your romance paths with them are given the same amount of weight (though actually I'd say Than is more favoured by the game's writing than she is).

#

However, unlike with Than, Meg has her friendship with Dusa and her relationship with her sisters, both of which serve to inform a lot of her personality and character outside of her antagonistic relationship with Zagreus: Dusa shows that Meg is actually a really friendly and laidback person outside of her interactions with Zag, and her sisters show how her being the eldest sibling to a bunch of delinquent exiles pushes her to be more responsible than she probably would be, in turn explaining her anger at Zag for shirking his duties. Even the small interactions she has with Hypnos also show that she can be surprisingly sweet and open-minded (you'd first expect her to be disgusted/annoyed by him), even if she's a little sassy and patronizing.

Than's equivalent other relationships are restricted to those with Nyx and Hypnos, the first of which doesn't inform his character nearly as much (he's a diligent mama's boy), and the second which makes him out to be a jerk.

uncut adder
#

Can we talk about possible HII speculations here as well?

mortal dune
supple walrus
# mortal dune However, unlike with Than, Meg has her friendship with Dusa and her relationship...

i think the main thing i disagree with is that being repressed and not having a lot of variety in interactions makes a character not well written, because ime some people are like that

getting back to the meg thing, idk, when you list it like that i definitely see your point. but playing the game, her character, to me, was just an amalgation of (positive) feminist stereotypes. which, while, i don't mind her being written like that... it's not deep either and just doesn't do anything for me emotionally (while than triggers all the issues, i will admit that)

uncut adder
#

I don’t think Meg was as much a bunch of feminist stereotypes than you saw a lot of feminist stereotypes in her character.

pseudo stump
#

Meg is a yuppie? shadeohboy

mortal dune
# supple walrus i think the main thing i disagree with is that being repressed and not having a ...

Yeah some people are like that, but there are different ways to present someone as repressed, y'know? He could react in different ways to different stimuli. (And he's not even especially repressed imo? Like he's sweet with his mom, and kind to Persephone, and even has comaradery with Meg, so it's not especially out of bounds for him to be reactive). Him lacking reactions and interactions to things doesn't come comes off as him being emotionally-repressed to me, and more comes off that he just doesn't really have. feelings or thoughts about most things.

uncut adder
#

Not all of her traits are positive, I’d even say most of them are negative in her perspective and view of the people around her.

mortal dune
#

Like, if you were to go up to him and ask him about his thoughts on people like Achilles, or about the structure of the underworld or something, he would literally have nothing important to tell you

uncut adder
mortal dune
#

Also yeahhh I have issues with Meg's characterization- she's not even especially feminist to me, there are parts of her that actually come off as misogynistic to me?? A little bit?

uncut adder
#

^

mortal dune
#

This is more a fanon thing than anything else, but a large part of the way she's perceived centers around her being a dominatrix

#

Which is kind-of reduces her to being a sexual object

uncut adder
#

She’s a dominatrix, yes

She eventually came to form female friendships, yes

She’s career oriented (Ig this is feminist)

uncut adder
mortal dune
#

No NO I totally agree with that

#

It's just that that is definitely something that can happen and at times I feel the game does this

#

Like, being a sexual person doesn't have to objectify her it's just that it definitely can and sometimes the game does do this

#

It's not at all common with her character, and it is more a fan-thing, like I said. But it is something I consider important to bring up

#

Like, this aspect of her relationship with Zag is presented to be less about her and what she wants/needs and more about the titillation of it

uncut adder
#

That’s… I don’t think so because she’s the one who initiates.

mortal dune
#

Yeah, but consider how she does, and why she does it

uncut adder
mortal dune
#

The way the scene starts is reminiscent of femme fatale scenes

#

In that her coming into Zag's room in the more dominant, dismissive way she does, is done with the specific purpose of sexualizing her

#

Which I guess is fair enough considering that would kind-of be the point, but you take a look at Than's and the difference is staggering

#

Thanatos's room scene is all about the romantic feelings they share, while Meg's is all about the sexual attraction both Zag and the player might feel towards her.

#

It's not technically out of character but it is a misogynistic sterotype

uncut adder
#

But wouldn’t that just be difference between two characters? Is there an inherent issue with the femme fatale archetype?

mortal dune
#

Yeah that's why I say that it's something the game only half-way falls into this and that it's more of a fandom issue- it is a difference between the two characters, but that difference isn't afforded enough nuance to respect Meg's agency the same way it does Than's.

#

Thanatos isn't "sexy" the way Meg is. It's a disparity in the way the characters are written, yes, but it's notable that that difference comes from two different sides of the gender spectrum

#

It could be argued that Meg is just someone not looking for a romantic relationship right now, that she and Zag are FWBs and whatnot, which can be valid? I'd just say that kind of storyline would require a lot more care than the story afforded it

uncut adder
#

There doesn’t always need to be nuance in each portrayal because the scene themselves might not require that nuance.

Than’s interactions with other characters were also not as nuanced as Meg’s was but that wasn’t a flaw, it was a difference in character.

I think your issue with it is more personal rather than objective.

mortal dune
#

That comes off as a little presumptuous but I'm curious as to what you mean

uncut adder
#

I know and I apologise but that’s what it seems like to me. You haven’t really pointed out a way that this is an objective fault of the writing rather than just an interpretation of the story.

mortal dune
#

Hmmm lemme think

#

There might be some personal biases here just in regards to a sensitivity I might have towards the portrayals of women in sexual relationships yes

#

I don't think that makes in unobjective, though. Objectively, Meg's relationship to Zag is more sexual (or, at least, less about romance) than Thanatos'. And, in my opinion, her being the only female sexual interest Zag can actually have misogynistic implications, or at minimum stem from misogynistic cultural contexts.

#

Like I said, it's not the hugest problem but it is definitely something I feel is important to be aware of

uncut adder
#

You yourself have pointed out that is likely a FWB relationship which has been established in the story.

Than is Zag’s only male sexual interest.
And this might be pedantic but Dusa might be NB but she’s female presenting as well.

mortal dune
#

no I mean that Dusa isn't someone Zag can have a sexual or even romantic relationship with

#

So it's not relevant when we're talking about portrayals of women with regards to specifically sex

uncut adder
uncut adder
mortal dune
#

First thing I'd argue is that it's not really well-established that it's a FWB situation (All she says is that she wants to take things slow because of their past relationship, and that they don't want to let it get in the way of their work).

#

And that she doesn't want him to really tell anyone which is more about her being a closed-off person than anything else

uncut adder
#

“I just want to -“ I’m paraphrasing because I don’t quite remember but she said something along those lines.

mortal dune
#

Yeah, going through the scenes with her I actually can't find what you're referring to 😅

uncut adder
#

She makes some mention of wanting to keep this physical before romantic.

mortal dune
#

Yeah I can't find that, sorry

#

The closest thing I can find is that they're good for as long as they choose to be (taking it slow), and that she herself isn't quite sure of how their relationship works anymore

#

It's non-conventional for sure, but not necessarily FWB

uncut adder
#

You’re right actually, I can’t find a line, I swore she said something about that in the sex scene.

mortal dune
#

Oof, yeah, in that scene (and the supplementary one), she does not.

#

Also there's something to be said about how any prior issues she and Zag had with their relationship is kinda hand-waved off, thereby making it come off as rather insignificant?

#

But like, whatever man, Hades' storylines are not known for being cohesive

uncut adder
#

I’ll agree that their FWB relationship wasn’t clearly established, Ig I just thought it was lol, that was my mistake and I apologise.

mortal dune
#

hey yeah no worries

#

Can't possibly expect you to remember every detail 👍

uncut adder
mortal dune
#

Ultimately I feel that a large part of that scene writes off/trivializes Meg's agency for the sake of portraying their sexual relationship. In completely disregarding the reasons as to why Meg might want to be with Zag (we never really see her acknowledge her new feelings in any real way), as well as why she might not (we never really get to hear her say how Zag hurt her and what changed), it simplifies their relationship quite a bit I feel, thereby objectifying her in a way.

uncut adder
#

I can see that.

mortal dune
#

Whereas with Thanzag, their whole storyline is about Thanatos being the way he is specifically because he has romantic feelings for Zag, and is angsting about his dilemma in keeping Zag happy versus keeping Zag in his life. We get an explanation for why Than feels the way he feels, and we see the moment when those feelings get acknowledged, validated, and changed.

#

They could have handled it a lot better, is all I'm saying 😅

#

I think a good example of what could have been done to improve this, is just show the moment when Meg acknowledges the changes in Zagreus' behaviour, and how that makes her feel about him.

uncut adder
#

Yeah, I agree.

mortal dune
#

Though I haven't watched it, the Puss in Boots sequel with it's female love interest has a really good scene that could serve as a model for that

uncut adder
#

Yep, I know what you mean, you’re quite correct

#

Thanks for the civil discourse it was very informative and intriguing, mind if I friend request ya?

mortal dune
#

Sure! :] I really love talking about stories, and as much as I gripe about it I really do like Hades as a narrative, so it was delightful conversing with you :)

uncut adder
#

Watcha up to?

mortal dune
#

staynig up awy too late talknig bout video games

uncut adder
#

Lol

#

Wanna hang out?

mortal dune
#

Not in this chat

supple walrus
#

there's a dialog at some point in which zag asks meg "hey, have you ever been in love with someone", she says yes, he asks who and she just replies "shut up". i think it's meant to state it is a romantic relationship as well.

also i feel like they did show what changed between them when she says things like "keep up the more mature thing" and similar things

#

also also i think they specifically made thanzag more romantic to avoid the stereotypes of men not having feelings and women not having sexual agency, though yeah that did end up oversexualizing her... for me that was when after the first bedroom scene with her, zag just says "yes", like, they might as well have had him say "score", ugh

supple walrus
supple walrus
supple walrus
uncut adder
mortal dune
#

The impression I got is really just that he didn’t particularly care about anything is the thing. Like they’d talk about things but Than wouldn’t especially stand for anything. Maybe I just haven’t seen all of it but every convo I remember with Than ends with him telling Zag to stop contemplating on things

true harness
#

meh, I think he's stoic more than unfeeling

mortal dune
#

Talk to him about Dusa he sticks by Nyx’ decision, talk to him about Ares he just compliments Nyx, about Charon he dismisses the idea

true harness
#

well, unfeeling is not the right word

#

but like

mortal dune
#

Yeah he’s not unfeeling, like I said he has a lot of affection for Nyx, he’s just also incredibly passive and unreactive

true harness
#

he is opinionated, he is just too stoic to make it too obvious

mortal dune
#

Do you have any examples? I’m going through the transcript and I can’t find anything of note 😅

true harness
#

first thing that pops to mind are his thoughts about Zag's ingerence in orpheus and euridyce relationship

#

also how he feels about zag trying to leave

mortal dune
#

Yeah I will give you Zag trying to leave, I talked about it earlier

#

But Than’s opinion on Orpheus and Eurydice came off to me more like he didn’t want to rock the boat

#

Challenge the status quo.

#

Like, he does challenge it for Zag, but that’s the only real example and thus the only especially interesting thing he does to me

true harness
#

he seems more opinionated than that. He really points out how it's disrespectful of boundaries

mortal dune
#

He points out how he’s worried they can make things worse

#

I consider that more a testament to his caution and to him sticking to his own lane than anything else

#

So, passive

#

The only person he pushes back against openly even a little bit is Zagreus which is also kinda meh, cuz part of that comes from his anger and angst at him, and the other part comes from him just being of an opposite affect

#

There’s one scene where Than comments on Zag and Hades’ relationship which is adequate I suppose, but it feels less like an opinion he holds and testifies to and more like he felt someone had to say it

#

Which can say things about his characterization for sure it’s just not especially deep

#

Cuz yeah, everyone in the House feels the same way, it’s not an opinion only he can hold

supple walrus
mortal dune
#

He says it’s nice that Persephone is home and the he thinks Hades and Zag have to work on their relationship

supple walrus
#

oh, that one. thanks

supple walrus
#

it just occured to me that the difference in how other characters react to zagreus' versus hypnos' characteristics that can be read as adhd is actually sort of realistic

there's the fun, outgoing, golden retriever energy adhd type that's popular with others

and the can't-live-up-to-expectations, saying inappropriate stuff all the time adhd type

#

in hades 2, hypnos will have developed depression and rejection sensitive dysphoria (maybe)

mortal dune
#

There’s a lot to be said about the ways in which Hypnos and Zag are treated differently

#

Though it’s not an in-universe made connection it is explicitly canon that they had/have similar issues with regards to working at the house

#

They’re both considered lazy, rude, spoiled, incompetent

#

One of the few notable differences between them is that on Zag’s end, it is mostly a choice he makes in defiance of his father, whereas with Hypnos his ‘incompetence’ stems less from a lack of will and more from his disability getting in the way

#

Zag does get some criticism for his hyperactivity and his clinginess and whatnot (which can definitely be read as ADHD- I would), but for him it’s also connotated as cute and endearing more often than not

#

Whereas with Hypnos, him struggling with his job (between trying to make things run faster and trying to keep the shades happy/appropriately represented) is connotated with disdain from Dusa, as though his “laziness” was a choice he made specifically to upset them

#

(Also there’s a scene where Zagreus explicitly and openly validates Thanatos’ verbal abuse of Hypnos which sucks sooooo bad it infuriated me when I heard it)

#

God, the more I revisit it this game treats Hypnos soooo screwing bad. I'm tired and probably more emotional about it than I should be, but Christ alive the things this game will say about him and his behaviours- things that resonate so deeply with neurodivergent people, or people with other disabilities- is genuinely heartbreaking

#

The game hyperbolically values a 'good work ethic' (putting down Hypnos) in the same breath it validates Zagreus for escaping the confines and pressures of the House, which is thematically a little incoherent

#

It also treats Hypnos like he's a child who's incapable of understanding the mean things people say to him in the same breath it calls him a fully-grown independent able-bodied adult who should know and do better

#

Meg and Zag can be incredibly patronizing to him, Thanatos is abusive to him in the beginning of that storyline and completely dismissive and invalidating of him towards the end, Nyx treats him like a burden that she has to go out of her way to keep isolated from other people, it's genuinely horrible

#

Like, screwing Hades is kinder to Hypnos than anyone else is at times!

true harness
#

Hades tends to be somewhat kind, if stern. atvl with other gods, but that's an issue for all of them save Zagreus himself

#

Or well, not kindness but respect I guess

mortal dune
#

For sure

#

Earlier today I was going through Thanatos' dialogues and his conversation with Hades after Zag gets officially hired is actually quite respectable, like to a remarkable extent. Hades goes to Than specifically to clear the air with him and make sure he knows he's valued and whatnot, like???

true harness
#

Also I disagree with zag and hypnos being so similar as to justify them treated equally. I agree more with fyx's point of view. They are treated differently because they are different. That said, the treatment of hypnos is pretty unfair, but that's independant of how zag is treated

mortal dune
#

It's not that I think they have similar difficulties, so I agree with you on that front

#

They do have different issues, and that's important to acknowledge. What I meant, is that they are called the same things by the other characters, and are considered to have the same issues in-canon, when that is not the case.

#

That's why I find it appropriate to compare their different treatments- because the language/accusations levied against them are functionally the same.

supple walrus
#

i guess there's also something to be said about the hades game underworld essentially being run like a capitalist bureaucratic nightmare, which is the main reason why "laziness" / disability is shunned in that context the way it is

#

in the beginning you're like f yeah, go zag when you fight against that, but the way the story resolves is just zag finding his place in that. bythat point you're taken in by the gameplay so you don't mind anymore though and by you i mean me here

mortal dune
#

Yeahhhh

#

The whole game functionally frames the ability to work (“contribute”) as the ultimate determiner of value, at least in certain aspects

#

Because both Zag and Hypnos only become outwardly celebrated once they finally “contribute “ to the House

#

Zag has more scenes so you can see how people value him outside of that, but a large part of his developing relationships with people only climax once they feel he’s finally become a “responsible person”, a responsible worker

mortal dune
#

you heard it here first folks

by decree of the council, greg kasavin is a capitalist

supple walrus
#

three people agreed, it must be true🤝

seriously though, i think one of the reasons i don't mind the things i criticize about hades' writing is that i feel like none of the things that bother me are... intentional, really

you know, like, it wasn't their goal to actually say not being able to work like others want you to makes you a bad person deserving of ridicule or animosity

#

and while the author is dead etc that does make a difference to me

mortal dune
#

That’s fair enough

#

To me the fact it doesn’t feel intentional makes it feel more like a belief that’s truly held by the writing team, that inadvertently flooded their media with really harmful and incorrect rhetoric

#

Like, what they wanted was to make fun of someone they considered a “bad person”, and the real issues lie within who they consider a “bad person”

#

They didn’t mean to make the characters in their game ableist, it’s not something they did with intention, the characters themselves are supposed to be morally upright and whatnot. Thusly, they have shown they inadvertently hold (or at least, uphold) ableist beliefs, whether they intended to or not.

#

In the same way someone can be implicitly racist I feel like the writing surrounding Hypnos and others in the game is an act of implicit ableism

#

It’s not something they can’t come back from- though, critically, as it stands it is quite disgusting to me personally

supple walrus
#

oh, i definitely think it's ableist no matter the intention, and i see your point. though to me, it doesn't seem like they'd actually think hypnos is a bad person, just that the writing makes it seem like that. i think you said before that hypnos' treatment contradicts other messages in the game, and to me, those other messages seem stronger and more intentional. but idk maybe that's me being naive, the only way to make me stop assume good intentions is to beat me with the effect of bad intentions multiple times

mortal dune
#

Yeah that’s totally fair

#

Yeah, I guess for me, the fact that Hypnos is still treated rather poorly even though it is acknowledged that he’s trying his best and does have issues relating to a type of disability, is what hurts the most. It would be a weird writing decision if they just out of nowhere decided for all the characters to be ableist, but it wouldn’t be nearly as bad if they acknowledged that that’s a flaw that the characters have to grow past. As it stands, the way ableist rhetoric is validated turns how they treated Hypnos into a harmful writing decision, at least in my opinion.

pseudo stump
#

Is he actually trying his best? I didn't get that impression while I was playing, but it has been a while

mortal dune
#

Yeah, it’s almost explicitly stated that “he means well, he just gets distracted/can’t focus/struggles with organization/can’t read social cues”

#

Also, the fact that his work becomes “immaculate” after he gets any amount support proves that he is a good worker, and was heretofore only really held back by his disability

pseudo stump
#

Hah you remind me of the organization mentioned by my old pastor (whose friend works in said org): https://ican.org/

ICAN
ican_wpadmin
Disability Services in California | ICAN

ICAN offers disability Services in California. Our Supported Employment Program provides a job preparation class, job development, and job coaching services. The goal is to empower clients to attain careers in their community.

#

Thanks for your thoughts, by the way. Lots to think on

mortal dune
#

Thank you guys for being being so receptive to them, I was really worried my concerns would be dismissed

pseudo stump
#

I can dismiss 'em if you'd like! We had a sermon series at my old church about church and disabilities, etc. Some of what you're saying sounds familiar

mortal dune
#

Oh jesus lol

pseudo stump
#

How should I read the tone of your comment?

mortal dune
#

Oh oops, I was worried that people would tell me that my concerns about the writing in the game were stupid/irrelevant, and I’m glad that that didn’t happen :)

pseudo stump
#

Would you say everybody should have some sort of "work" to do though not necessarily like a capitalist office job, etc?

#

Not necessarily for 💵

mortal dune
#

I mean, for the purpose of self-fulfillment probably

#

But a society at large often has the mentality of “if you aren’t being productive in any way, if you aren’t contributing to society, you are not a deserving, complete person”. This mentality also applies to jobs/labour outside of conventional capitalistic pursuits as well

pseudo stump
#

I see, I see. While I don't think work is one's value, I also think one should have some kind of work appropriate for one's ability. Which I suppose means Hades characters' treatment of Hypnos is definitely imperfect, but I'm happy to see Hypnos thrive when he does get his notes together

mortal dune
#

Yeah I see

#

I like seeing him thrive because it’s a struggle he’s been having for eons, one he’s finally overcome on his own terms. Sure , the only reason it’s become such an issue is because of harmful rhetoric, but he is happy (as many disabled people would be in his situation) and so rhetoric matter less to me in that regard.

#

But yeah, the idea that he has to work in order to be deserving of support, praise, love, family and respect is one that doesn’t jive with me

#

Even the idea that he has to have a productive hobby falls into that harmful rhetoric. “If he can’t work he should at least do something to prove his worth to people”. Y’know?

pseudo stump
#

Yeah. Sounds funny to this Christian whose worth is given, not earned

#

Like work because you're worthy, not work so that you're worthy

mortal dune
#

Nodding. And what about the people who can’t work? At all?

pseudo stump
#

Good question! I have one friend who can't, and though I don't know exactly how he's navigating it, it definitely seems a struggle

mortal dune
#

I can imagine. Sending him my best

#

But yeah as someone with a neurodivergence-based disability I have had to reconsider and challenge the idea of ‘proper work’ and ‘productivity’, so this is a topic I care about a lot

pseudo stump
#

I think I got fired from my old job for collapsing too much LOL. Right before COVID hit though (and I worked right by the big LAX airport), so I think I dodged a viral bullet!

mortal dune
#

Hey, God was protecting you :) ❤️

#

(Just because I’m concerned about tone being conveyed through the internet I mean that genuinely and am glad you’re okay ❤️)

mortal dune
#

funniest thing in game is that all the cthonics have american accents while all the olympians are British

#

america is hell confirmed

frozen jolt
#

Search feature on mobile is basically not functional rn, but search “accent” in #ask-supergiant

open berry
#

search works fine 4 me on my phone but then again i turned off auto updates for all my apps a year ago and haven't updated discord in ages 😭

frozen jolt
#

they did work iminsane

#

yeah search barely works now on mobile, in the current update

#

hope they fix it

supple walrus
frozen jolt
#

yeah theres even dialogue about how hades taught zag how to speak like that

#

with dusa i think, shes like "whats up with your accent" LOL

true harness
#

I remember it's addressed in game yeah. Not sure who does.

#

Dusa makes sense

pseudo stump
#

According to some, it's an American's British accent zaglol

mortal dune
warm crescent
#

Hey, idk if this is just me but… i don’t understand why Demeter is pronounced DEM-ETER… but it kinda bothers me a tad bit at times.

#

But it’s probably personal preference, I’m guessing…

true harness
#

Wait, how would you pronounce it ?

twin jolt
#

From what I remember Zag, Hades, and most of the Olympians are Received Pronunciation, the Erynies, Nyx, and all of her children are General American, Artemis is Scottish, Hermes and Sisyphus are different varieties of Irish and Eurydice is like just on the cusp between General American and AAVE

mortal dune
pseudo stump
#

Deem meter

twin jolt
#

De-MEE-ter feels pretty natural to me

#

Yeah just looked it up the original greek is /dɪˈmiːtər/

supple walrus
valid pecan
#

Dèmeter

#

Welp idk how to type syllable pronunciation in English

#

But basically without the "ee" sound anywhere

uncut adder
valid pecan
#

Yeah I think

#

Also idk how to explain this in English but basically with a focus on the first e, not the second

#

deh...meter

#

If that makes sense lol in Italian you say "with the accent on the first e"

patent acorn
#

It more like de-mi-ter

#

Middle syllable rhymes with lick

twin jolt
twin jolt
patent acorn
#

American

twin jolt
#

Yeah I think that would be closer to /ɪ/ than the /i/ wikipedia says its pronounced as

valid pecan
tropic frigate
#

that feeling when you and hades is at low heath

#

And you die

#

MMMMMMMMG

gentle meteor
warm crescent
#

Zag saying it (DEM-E-TER) is fine tbh… cuz he’s like the MC so I wouldn’t be triggered by it… but if people mess up Ares…

warm crescent
#

The reason I like preferring to (d-ee-meter) is because my mom is mostly a goddess person. She would know all about the whole polytheistic stuff and that. And she also has many books on it as well.

#

Also because of the gospel group we listen to sometimes: who sang a song about the goddesses from many mythologies, and pronounced it [D-EE-METER] in the song. Based off the Greek origin.

#

I know that was a lot to say there… but just bare with me here.

#

Also we’re mostly a spiritual household… which means that we hold personal beliefs and practice outside of an organized religion. It’s a bit complicated to understand.

#

If you don’t believe in this… that’s completely fine.

warm crescent
#

Guys, how do you progress Sisyphus’s favor?

#

I know it’s something to do with the Administration Chamber and solitary confinement…

plain rapids
#

after some time there’ll be an option at the house contractor to free him for four diamonds (before that you have to go to administration and find his folder)

warm crescent
#

Ahh.. ok, thx!!!

plain rapids
#

i finished epilogue why is my demeter relationship still locked 😞😞

#

nvm it just unlocked 💀💀

zenith wedge
#

just talk to her more

#

or that lmfao

#

complaining always works

plain rapids
#

this is true

gentle meteor
#

Question (SPOILERS FOR END OF GAME): what happened to Persephone's father? I assume since he is mortal he died and is hanging out in Hades but she acts like she hasn't seen him in a long time so where is he? (I know in actual mythology she is the daughter of Zeus but that was changed in game because it'd be awkward).
I had a theory back when I was starting the game that Skelly was granddad mainly because calling us Boyo and the pranks he played seem like the sort of thing a close relative would pull but frankly that's hardly convincing evidence, so do you think we'll see him in Hades 2 or in future material?

true harness
#

it also feels weird that he's not a major character. Or an important one at least.

supple walrus
#

it's like he was... fridged haha get it (i am so sorry)

true harness
#

I think someone told me once that Persephone says she is content about the life they had together when he was alive and that was why she didn't reach out to him, but I'm still surprised Zagreus the Family Man didn't try

#

(also I'm personally partial to Skelly being Odysseus, but it's 100% fan theory, nothing confirmed)

supple walrus
#

tbh i don't think we're gonna see him in hades2 and i also think the main reason to not add him was that it'd be too much to make a whole new character that wouldn't have a gameplay reason to exist

true harness
#

Nah, persephone said that, not dem

#

dem is 100% bitter

supple walrus
#

oh, i misread that, sry

true harness
#

and tbh I don't remember persephone saying that myself, so I have no idea if it's true zaglol

static lion
supple walrus
#

i like demeter. i like her bitterness

zealous fox
#

does thanatos not have random heart dialogue like meg zagcry

static rose
#

He does

fathom knot
twin jolt
#

He's just easier to miss than Meg because he's always brooding in his own corner instead of socializing in the lounge haha

supple walrus
#

nah even if you go out of your way looking for him, he doesn't show up as often as meg does

#

new theory inspired by mort: than isn't as busy and hard working as he pretends to be. he just kinda slow

pseudo stump
#

I bet he gets distracted by puppies and kittens stupid slacker

supple walrus
#

i thought more like he has to say cool lines to everyone and then he has to wait a long time inbetween saying the line and taking someone

but yeah, that too, probably

mortal dune
#

Oooh a fun revelation I just had with regards to Hades and Zagreus’ relationship is that I’d imagine a large part of Hades’ incredibly strict childrearing towards Zag can most probably be attributed to the disdain His has for his spoiled-rotten Olympian extended family.

#

All the lessons Hades imparts upon Zag are to try and cull the more toxic behaviors he despises within his brothers Zeus and Poseidon, such as selfishness, lack of forethought, lack of discipline, etc.

#

But because of how Hades’ (and Persephone’s) own flaws, such as stubbornness, were also imparted to Zag, Zagreus rejected his father and started acting opposite of what his father wanted, especially towards his father.

He acted out, became irresponsible and insensitive out of defiance, became self-centered out of self-preservation and then inconsiderate to others because of his self-centeredness

#

I’d also imagine Hades and Nyx as co-parents fell into a bit of polarization, where Hades would berate and chastise (and verbally and emotionally abuse Zag) and Nyx- to counterbalance that- would spoil him. Where Hades would punish his son with cruel words, public shame, and revoked privileges, Nyx would hardly chastise him, as well as encourage his more reckless pursuits (IIRC she even talks about how she raised him with a much more laidback attitude- especially in comparison to her other children)

#

Zagreus was evidently raised better than the other Olympians for sure, due to both Hades’ and Nyx’s influence in his life, but it’s a lot of fun to imagine how is upbringing played out

#

Not to mention he is the Prince of the Underworld, (technically the heir to the throne), and so would be afforded even more levity and liberty than he would have otherwise, contributing to his spoiledness even more

#

Some of the things he does would Not fly if he was just a regular employee like, say, Achilles or something

gentle meteor
mortal dune
#

This is true!

#

Only reason I didn’t bring it up is because it explains his lack of empathy towards Zag (no model to go off of, as well as how he’s still smarting over Persephone leaving), but not necessarily the things Hades values/despises nor how he imparted those values onto his son

#

If I were to list out the things Hades cares about philosophically vs the things Zag cares about I honestly don’t think I’d see much overlap actually! On a deep personal level they care about a number of different things, which is probably why they butt heads so often

#

Hades cares about order, responsibility, dignity and integrity. This is most likely because, even before he was damned to the Underworld, as the oldest sibling to a bunch of brats he’s had to functionally pick up the slack for their lack of accountability, and after coming to the Underworld he has had to manage and run the world’s most complicated bed and breakfast, caring for the needs of billions of people where the Olympians has not. He values these things because he’s had to, in order to keep the world from falling into a deep dysfunction.

#

Zagreus, on the other hand has had no such duty and so doesn’t really see the importance of Hades’ values, thinking them to be prissy and restrictive. He tends to value liberty, growth, friendship, and family more, because of how those are things he’s long lacked and desperately pined for.

#

(Although he’s had friendship and family within people in the House of Hades, he could not really register nor accept that love because of circumstances arising out of his father’s abuse- him not understanding/appreciating what he had at home is a hugely significant theme of the game, and it’s also what largely initially spurred him on to find Persephone in the first place).

#

Because of all this I think the storyline about Hades and Zagreus’ relationship is the most successful part of the game’s’ writing. They’re the characters afforded the most screentime, which makes each of their individual arcs quite naturally paced I’d say

#

With each run and each win you get to see exactly what Hades and Zag’s relationship is like, exactly what they need in order improve that relationship, and exactly when they start accepting influence from each other.

#

Hades learns to accept growth and change, be more forgiving towards others, and starts encouraging Zag’s need for freedom (there’s an explicit example of this when Hades gives Zag his security job- that there’s no set schedule and he can do what he wants whenever he wants his Hades’ way of supporting Zag).

#

And Zag learns to take responsibility, value what he has (imagine sisyphus happy), and respect order when necessary. This is reflected in both his relationship to his father as well as his relationships to people like Than and Meg.

#

And the anchor point to this reconciliation comes about when they finally find something they agree about- they both want Persephone in their lives, and they both want to protect her and their home.

#

It’s an incredibly cohesive plotline, probably The most cohesive in the whole game (which, if you’ve seen my previous rants, is quite notable), and the way it progresses so naturally in the story is remarkable.

#

I do have a couple issues with it- it’s really iffy that Hades’ growth and change is almost entirely attributed to his love for Persephone, unintentionally implying that she’s responsible for his morality (falling into a misogynistic trope). They do try to circumvent this by having Hades and Perse have a conversation where she tells him she can’t and won’t tell/show him the right things to do, but it still hits wrong with me because of how significant that part of their relationship is to the mechanics of the game. Can’t really be handwaved away like that, but I’m not super mad at it at all.

#

There’s also the part where Zagreus is kinda forced to accept his lot in life and the abuse he suffered simply because he literally cannot change his circumstances and cannot escape that abusive environment also saddens me quite a bit, but the honest truth is that that’s something a lot of people (myself included) can resonate with, and so it’s a story definitely worth telling

#

Though the fact that the game sorta chastises him for that incredibly valid discontentment he feels about Hades and his life in the Underworld is in really poor taste as well. Feels a touch like victim blaming, but what can you do?

pseudo stump
#

I'm not sure I understand the last two bits. Don't spouses ideally sharpen each others' character? And while Zagreus does have legitimate hardship, doesn't he come at it with pride rather than humility?

mortal dune
#

For that first part, absolutely! Healthy relationships need to encourage growth and positive development between each partner, need to learn ti accept influence from the other, otherwise they will inevitably fall into toxic tendencies. The issue comes from how Persephone isn’t portrayed as taking any positive influence from Hades, making their relationship entirely one-sided.

#

If Hades has nothing to offer Persephone morally then she becomes the moral arbiter of their relationship, which is imbalanced and unhealthy.

#

Especially if they ever disagree on things; in typical relationships, Persephone will be used to thinking she is ultimately the correct one, and will resent or think Hades is regressing if he disagrees with her.

#

For the second point you make I’m not quite sure to what you’re referring to 😅

pseudo stump
#

I feel like we don't see enough of the two's relationship to make those conclusions

mortal dune
#

Which I feel is a fault of the writing

#

We see a notable amount of their relationship (at least 20 accumulated minutes of screentime), so some of that could have been dedicated to this aspect

#

Also, since they talk at length about Persephone’s influence on Hades and how her leaving messed him up, it tips the scales a lot.

pseudo stump
#

I suppose, but I also feel like that's maybe venturing outside the scope of the story. Making story spaghetti, if you will

#

I feel like it's asking for how Disney princes+princesses work through marital issues after they get married at the end of the movie

mortal dune
#

I’d absolutely disagree. A HUGE part of the game (if it’s not the main point) is about how to model healthy relationships, especially between parent and child, especially between family members.

#

It is the whole crux of the narrative, both with regards to Hades and Zag as well as the Olympians.

#

As well as Zag and his romantic relationships, as well as Zag and his friends, etc.

pseudo stump
#

I suppose, but in terms of the main plot, I feel like its end goal was just to restore the relationships left torn and/or vacant by Persephone's departure. Maybe it can be explored further in Hades 2. I feel like what you're asking for is quite a lot to have implemented

#

Like at least 50% more main story

mortal dune
#

Hades is an incredibly expansive game with thousands upon thousands of lines of dialogue- it’s not so unreasonable to expect at least 20 lines out of the thousands they already have dedicated towards modeling a healthy romantic relationship by between Hades and Persephone, especially since it’s so narratively important to the whole plot of the game.

#

If the game is mechanically about finding Persephone to ‘fix’ Hades (which, let’s face it, that’s what’s happening), then that’s a really critical point to bring up.

pseudo stump
#

mm, I dunno. I feel as though it's like trying to resolve Po the panda's current dreams and his mysterious past in a single movie instead of making Kung Fu Panda 1 and then Kung Fu Panda 2

#

Or maybe asking for a Les Miserables

mortal dune
#

Well, if it really is so difficult to add this necessary dimension to their relationship, it should be even easier to remove a dimension of their relationship- the absolute inherent idolization of Persephone by all characters, especially with regards to her influence on Hades

pseudo stump
#

Was she idolized much? I feel like they were just talking about it as a married man missing his wife which is fair since a married man on his own is only like half a relationship

mortal dune
#

It is- Orpheus, Eurydice, and Sisyphus emphasize her kindness in comparison to Hades cruelty, Nyx is functionally in love with her (which is why she encourages Zag so much, thereby putting Persephone on a pedestal), and the whole point of the game is about how Zag so desperately longs for her kindness in his cruel life.

#

She’s not a perfect character, she is portrayed as having some flaws (her initial lack of accountability in running away is one notable one), but she’s never outright criticized for those flaws either, and has a number of excuses that strip a bit of her accountability for them.

pseudo stump
#

Hm I guess I'll have to take your word for it. I can't recall enough

mortal dune
#

(I have one more point ti make about this sorry I don’t mean to steamroll you) Her leaving the House violently hurt Hades psyche (through little fault of her own, though it is explicitly confirmed as a source of his pained and consequent abusive behavior), but that part is hardly, if ever, acknowledged, and at minimum is deftly handwaved away by all characters. There’s even a mechanic where characters in the House will go up to Persephone and talk about how much her ‘light’ was desperately missed, absolving her of the consequences that were absolutely her fault, that arose when she ran away.

pseudo stump
#

No steamrolling to be had: I'm not very full of words at the moment anyway

#

Welcome first, discussion later?

#

Prodigal mama?

mortal dune
mortal dune
mortal dune
pseudo stump
#

I'm not entirely sure if she's shown to be the perfect mother. I recall one conversation between her and Nyx in which she admits to knowing very little for all the lost time

#

I do see what you're saying though. It's just that maybe I'm more willing to accept like...Sonya from Crime and Punishment, for example

mortal dune
#

I haven’t read crime and punishment really so I don’t quite know what you mean, but I totally get it if your expectations are lower than mine

pseudo stump
#

And then Jean Valjean became a dad, but then because of his experiences he was overprotective, which then led his daughter to feel too stifled... zaglol

#

Maybe in Hades 2 we'll see some of this retroactively

mortal dune
#

Oh god I hope so, it would be incredibly interesting and honestly redeem a lot of this for me

pseudo stump
#

Kung Fu Panda 2 ahoy!

mortal dune
#

It would be so thematically resonant to talk about how Hades’ absence is affecting the Underworld, both structurally and for each character

pseudo stump
#

Like in Kung Fu Panda 1 they don't even acknowledge how strange it might be that a panda has a bird for a dad zaglol It's just like "dad!" "son!"

mortal dune
#

As it stands it sorta feels like they’d all be emotionally better without him, and that if he wasn’t so good at his job they wouldn’t want to keep him in their lives regardless

mortal dune
pseudo stump
#

Than, Hypnos, Nyx, Cerberus, etc. seem to get along okay personally and professionally with Hades before the happenings of Hades

pseudo stump
mortal dune
#

Professionally sure, but I’d argue not personally, because of how his constrictive influence is definitely felt even without Zag in the mix (and they don’t seem to really be friends).

#

Like yeah Than respects him, but that’s naturally a consequence of Hades being his employer and the one keeping the Underworld together. On a personal level there’s little established connection outside their jobs.

#

Hades thinks Hypnos is funny and artistic, so that’s something, but Hypnos is scared of Hades, making that part also not too mutual

pseudo stump
#

I wonder if any of this is cut content

#

Greg K and co. lurking like "grr"

mortal dune
#

Pffft

#

We’re uncovering all their little secrets

#

Nyx collaborated well with Hades and was grateful to him for the work he took on taking care of things (showing she valued his sense of responsibility outside of the things he did fir the house), but the events of the game negate that by making their relationship neutral, an obligation at best, and downright antagonistic at worst.

#

Cerberus is his puppy dog whom he spoils a LOT- a little bit of a Save the Cat moment but it’s harmless and quite cute- but, it’s also not indicative of a healthy or substantial mutual relationship

pseudo stump
#

I like how Hades gets on Zagreus for bothering the dog

mortal dune
#

And for how Zag leaving upset Cerberus (perhaps hiding how Zag leaving upset him on a more personal level)

pseudo stump
#

Awww dog proxy

#

Reminds me how like kids talk about their feelings better via puppet than they do speaking in first person

mortal dune
#

The most humanizing relationship Hades has is with Persephone because of how she brings out his kindness, but his relationship with Zag is the one that affords him the most depth

#

The strongest redeeming characteristic Hades has imo, is not how he treats Persephone sweetly (cuz that’s expected, and also only directed towards one person).

For me, it’s that he genuinely wants to, and is trying to learn, how to love his son. As a parent he wants to teach him first and foremost, and that gets painful and absolutely harmful sometimes, but you can also see how a lot of the things he says and does for Zagreus comes out of him trying to love him the only way he knows how (like giving him a job and mentoring him personally, trying to ensure both Zagreus’s success and strength of character).

pseudo stump
#

I guess that sounds like the PRIDE start screen before runs

#

Overcorrecting for Olympians hah

#

Dang it, Bobby!

mortal dune
#

Absolutely

#

His disappointment in Zag comes from how he ultimately wants his son to be a good man, an effective ruler, a responsible person, and how Zag deliberately, willfully falls short of that out of defiance.

#

Only once he sees that Zag needs a different approach and values different things (and develops the tools necessary to actually communicate that), as well as acknowledges the positive traits Zag does have, do you start to see their relationship improve.

#

(Also once he recognizes his harmful behavior and properly apologizes for it)

#

That he doesn’t expect forgiveness is a good step towards repairing their relationship

#

The way they use their temple-front fights as an excuse to actually spend time with one another (in a way they both can enjoy) is incredibly sweet, and I feel the game wouldn’t be complete without it.

supple walrus
#

also, i generally love your insights on the game's story, thanks for sharing your thoughts

supple walrus
# mortal dune Hades is an incredibly expansive game with thousands upon thousands of lines of ...

want to add something to this, though. the game's dialog is big but, the writing still has limitations due to it being a game. there's thousands of voice lines - but a lot of those have to be about something other than character depth and relations. there's fight related voice lines, voice lines where zag points out game mechanics to the player, charon hhhhrngh-ing

also, the story is like 70% told through plain dialog. there's no facial expressions or a lot of other ways for the characters to interact or show anything about themselves but through text. there's little animations and different character portraits, and sgg made very good use of these, but still... just pointing out there's mechanical limitations that may contribute to any issues with the writing

mortal dune
# supple walrus want to add something to this, though. the game's dialog is *big* but, the writi...

I would honestly disagree on this front, because even with the large percentage of game dialogue (like Zag’s reactions and whatnot) there are also still tons of lines of dialogue dedicated to character interaction. Thanatos and Meg interact in the lounge even though that’s not mechanically significant, Thanatos and Nyx, hell, the characters in question Hades and Persephone have a solid 20 minutes of time dedicated to talking about their relationship, where at least 20% of those conversations aren’t about largely important things

#

Whatever mechanical limitations the game has also wouldn’t be all too relevent here, because all of the game’s character interaction is carried out the same way, and we can derive plenty of depth out of that easily. The three romance routes, Achilles and Patroclus, Orpheus and Eurydice, Nyx and Chaos,Hades and Zagreus- demonstrating relationship depth through the game’s mechanical writing has been done successfully countless times within the game we already see, so I hope it’s not too unreasonable to ask for a little more care with how they portray Hades and Perse’ marriage so as to not end up misogynistic or, frankly, potentially toxic.

#

It doesn’t need to be a whole arc, they didn’t even necessarily have to add new dialogue. At minimum they just needed to reframe what they were already doing in a more successful way.

mortal dune
# supple walrus haha, i love that you call this sweet. i recently had a discussion with someone....

Also, this take by that person misses the point of the game, which is fundamentally about hope and growth. Hades is an abusive person, yes, but the story works to show how he learns and grows from his past behavior and how Zagreus chooses to give him the opportunity to redeem himself, keeping it fairly out of the realm of abuse apologism. It’s not invalid to argue some more work could have been done there to make it more explicit, but I personally am satisfied with the subtle ways the game demonstrates their growing, healthier dynamic for sure. You were not whitewashing an abuser by acknowledging that and I’m sorry they were cruel to you ❤️

#

I’m really happy that my analysis is interesting to you!! I appreciate you saying that and really enjoy having these discussions with you as well :))

neon acorn
#

another lover of your analysis here zagluv

open berry
#

the "whitewashed an abuser" comment is so wild to me and feels like it comes from people who didn't want any sort of redemption for hades in any capacity (and there def were a few of them i saw, especially prior to the full ending being added for the 1.0 launch), which is also wild bc that's fundamentally not what the games narrative is about nor was going for but aight

mortal dune
#

I can understand it from a personal and philosophical level- there is a tendency within media where characters are often obligated/almost forced to forgive their abusers, where the trauma they faced becomes invalidated for the sake of forgiving the abuser. This can ring realistically for a lot of people, this rhetoric has a real potential to harm victims and invalidate their pain and anger (victims are, of course, not obligated to forgive their abusers regardless of anything). So, that this game isn’t super explicit about Hades’ path of redemption absolutely has the potential to fall into that rhetoric and as such some people are going to be hurt/reactionary because of that.

I cannot speak for anyone as to whether or not they should be okay with this on a meta-textual level, but coming at it from a strictly narrative and thematic perspective Hades acknowledges he deserves no forgiveness, and his path towards redemption is acknowledged and validated by Zagreus, all of which is supported by the game’s overall themes. The acknowledgment is key here, because it helps the game avoid falling into that obligate abuse apologism; whether that’s satisfactory is up to the individual. Regardless, they should not have been rude towards you to such a degree.

supple walrus
#

Yeah, I would understand it if that person rejected that part of the narrative and my pov due to their own issues re: trauma and not wanting to be made to feel they should get over it etc, wouldn't be judging that. It felt more like they want the game to be dark(er) because that's cooler and more adult or something though, since they also said I ~lack the emotional capacity~ to understand it correctly (felt like they checked my profile and saw I use that reddit account only to post in the hades sub and subs for survivors of abuse, though maybe I'm being paranoid there idkzaglol )

supple walrus
mortal dune
open berry
#

there is a tendency within media where characters are often obligated/almost forced to forgive their abusers, where the trauma they faced becomes invalidated for the sake of forgiving the abuser.
yeah i'm aware but i just feel like if one is actually paying attention to the game's narrative its clear that
• that wasnt going to happen within the storyline
• but some form of forgiveness around hades and zag's relationship was going to happen because that was the theme of the game, repairing the broken relationships of a broken family

#

i know why people were put off by it but i think some people contributed bad faith discussion around it due to their total unwillingness to see where the narrative was headed because they didnt want to see hades redeemed in any regard

pseudo stump
#

It's strange to me how much some Internet denizens seem to hate forgiveness, reconciliation, and redemption zagsad

true harness
#

mainly because forgiveness, reconciliation, and redemption are often used as a front for impunity

#

For abuse, it's very common to hear "they abused you but you should try to make amend ! you should forgive them ! they can get better !"

#

it's not about forgiveness. It's about actually being better.

#

And Hades in fact knows he isn't entitled to Zagreus forgiveness

#

So I would say the game actually manages to stay clear of the worst part of "reconciliation". It's a very healthy, imo, view of it.

pseudo stump
#

Right, hence the redemption bit. Putting "entitled" and "forgiveness" together also seems strange to me

true harness
#

Why ?

pseudo stump
#

It's just that forgiveness by its nature isn't really...transactional

#

Like if a king forgives a debtor, it's not like the debt suddenly vanishes. It's the king absorbing the loss rather than the debtor earning forgiveness

#

Oh! Speaking of transactions for debts, Killing of a Sacred Deer is a fantastic exploration of how it might go

#

Like I guess the forgivee isn't first improving in order to earn forgiveness. Rather, they can start to live, having been pulled out from under their debt, because they've been forgiven. And then they can reconcile, etc etc

mortal dune
pseudo stump
#

That said, abuse and abused is a complicated thing. Forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean a continued relationship in the short term and argh I was too slow

mortal dune
#

HAHAH NOOO

#

That is absolutely true as well

#

Relationships are haaaard :(

tropic frigate
#

two types of people I'm this world

#

You either fix them or ruin them

supple walrus
# pseudo stump Like I guess the forgivee isn't first improving in order to *earn* forgiveness. ...

weird analogy because in societies with money, you usually need money to survive. also having money = power

whereas victim's forgiveness doesn't make a lot of difference to how an abuser is able to live. victims don't have that kind of power. actually if you look at power relations between abusers and their victims, also in the context of their surrounding social situation - usually the abuser would be king and the victim seen as the debtor. not the other way round

in hades i guess we can actually see the power relations between zag and hades changing, i guess that's part of why it works

mortal dune
#

I figured we were working under the assumption that the transaction being carried out was for the sake of continuing the relationship, because that’s the context within which forgiveness lies?? But yeah your point is totally valid

#

If an abuser wants to repair the relationship (seek forgiveness) then the victim becomes King is what I figured

supple walrus
#

ok but even in the case that an abuser actually wants to repair the relationship (as opposed to just wishing to go on w/o actually having to make any effort at all as is more often the case), the victim doesn't automatically become king and unlike the debtor, an abuser doesn't need forgiveness to move on with their life. that's why the abuser - and their community - need to make actual changes first, without expecting anything from the victim.

in hades we see eg persephone giving zag power over the situation when she asks him if he's ok with seeing her and hades together, we see hades trying to change his behavior etc.

zenith wedge
supple walrus
#

i saw that toozagsad was baffled by how everyone in that discussion was wrongzagsad

supple walrus
#

the original poster said they wish hades wasn't redeemed at all because he reminds them of their own abusive father, which is fair. but, they act like any attempt at reconciliation is him manipulating everyone into making up with him, which isn't what i see in the game at all. hades is a (swear word dyno doesn't like) to his son, but not intentionally manipulative in that way

everyone else arguing against that because according to them "it's not real, they are immortals, it's not applicable to the real world" though...

i swear it's like people hate any amount of complexity at all

pseudo stump
#

Hades just wants the best for his son but lacks the gentleness, kindness, and humility to raise him right zagsad

true harness
#

Generational trauma : the game

low crescent
#

ok i finally killed hades for the first time and escaped

#

im not sure if my understanding is correct

#

correct me if im wrong: whoever has died at least once, is eternally bound to the underworld and may not escape it, or else he will find his life sucked away and he will soon be taken away by styx, again to the underworld

#

zagreous died in infancy - therefore he is eternally bound to the underworld. Hades is right, Zagreus oversteps his bounds by attempting to escpace, Zag's place, indeed, is in the underworld

#

HOWEVER - Hades is said to also be eternally bound to the Underworld in the same fashion

#

This implies that Hades has also already died, even before Zagreus killed him

#

when?

#

how?

#

I don't remember in mythology that Hades died?

#

who killed Hades?

#

Well in mythology there was a story where Hades was defeated by Hercules, then Hades fled to Olympus to recuperate

zenith wedge
#

Dad is bound bc the fates said so basically

low crescent
#

then what about the story from mythology about Hades being bested by Heracles and then fleeing to Olympus to recuperate before returning to Underwold?

#

I guess this story is non canon in this game?

#

Also: in this game it is said that hades participated in the war against titans, he wielded Varatha the Eternal Spear in that war

#

How was that possible?? - Hades is bound to the Underworld, so he could not have taken part in a war that took place in the Overwolrd

  • The infernal arms seem to also be bound to the Underwold, whenever Zag escapes, his infernal arm shatters, how could Hades use Varatha in the war against Titans?
patent acorn
zenith wedge
low crescent
#

because someone killed him or because the fates just decreed so, "Hades you are from now for ever eternall forbidden from leaving the Underworld"?

zenith wedge
#

Is bc he became the ruler of the place

low crescent
#

Is Thanathos bound to the Underworld? Is Nyx also bound?

#

Nyx shouldn't be bound, well she visits the Overworld every 12 hours or so

patent acorn
low crescent
#

Zeus is the king of gods and therefore ruler of heavens, earth, seas and underworld. If Zeus stepped in the Underwold, would he be bound to the place?

#

Persephone visited the Underworld, because she was briefly Hades' consort - why is she not bound?

#

Bc doesn't it work this way? That by Fates' decree, whoever once steppe in the Underworld, is eternally forbidden from ever leaving it?

#

Bc, the way I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), it is not Hades decision that denizens of Underworld mustn't leave it -- it is the Fates' decree. Hades is merely tasked by Fates to enforce this; but whenever Hades fails to enforce this rule, then the rule will be enforced anyway, because the escapee will just be taken by Styx

zenith wedge
#

Story is far from done with 1 escape

low crescent
# patent acorn bc that's her job ig

But Fates' authority is above Hades, Nyx, Zagreous or whoever else. Fates hold supreme authority, possibly only rivalled by Chaos - Chaos, however, choses not to exercise their authority, so Fates are, basically, the supreme rulers - is that correct?
And Fates decreed that whoever lives in the Underworld are forbidden from leaving the place - right?
I know that both Nyx's and Than's jobs require them to leave the place from time to time - but doesn't this run afoul of that Fates' decree? And neither Nyx nor Than have any authority over the Fates?

zenith wedge
#

No, only dad and zag are tied to the underworld

#

Wish I could remember what the exact dialogue that addresses this was but no clue

#

And anyways you should run into it at some point, you have a loooot of story left

low crescent
zenith wedge
#

Whoever has died is not bound

#

If random shade of the house were to somehow get through all what zag does and go the surface they'd be good to go

#

(until like Than or anyone else catches them as it's not natural)

#

Or more simple, the Orpheus myth

#

Orpheus was about to get eury out of the underworld

low crescent
low crescent
zenith wedge
#

I don't remember what the explanation for zag being bound was

#

Either just being son of Hades or what Nyx did to keep him alive

zenith wedge
#

Been such a while since I've been through the story

mortal dune
#

In real life, the god's name Hades was used to describe the underworld of Hades as well, making them functionally inextricable. I think the bit is that Hades was bound to the Underworld in order for it to become his domain- he is materially connected to the substance of the Underworld.

#

And Zagreus was bound to the Styx in a similar way as deigned by Nyx

#

So they share the same physical traits in this way, they share the same blood.

#

There could also be the argument that because Zag is a part mortal who died at birth, he is bound to mortality like mortals are and is physically weak?

#

So like, if Orpheus escaped Hades he would still eventually die and come back

true harness
#

Orpheus did escape. Like Odysseus, Theseus, Hercules and maybe others. They did enter it alive first though, and ended up going there once they died for good.

#

And Zagreus only dies because he is bound to the underworld because of being the son of Hades.

#

I doubt nyx would have much issues with going to the living world. As would most other chtonic gods.

#

And while Zeus is king of the gods, he is not ruler of the seas and the underworld. He rules over his brothers, who themselves have dominion over those realms, but by himself he is only god of the heavens and earth.

#

Thanatos probably spends a lot of time in the over world. To his distaste. And that's not even touching over the Sisyphus box

open berry
#

forever upset there was never a reference in ares' dialogue about having to rescue thanatos because sisyphus tricked and captured him and it was making people not die and really hampering his own domain. theres just some vague dialogue about thanatos not trusting sisyphus and that was it. but WHY than. does it crimp ur cool guy persona too much to admit a mortal tricked u. i mean it IS pretty embarrassing

true harness
#

He doesn't seem to like talking about it yeah. Honestly it seems none of the people involved really want to reminisce about this case.

mortal dune
#

I mean the dialogue itself isn’t super heavy?

#

Like Meg for sure is mad at Sisyphus over it but Than doesn’t seem to care much

#

He’s like “yeah man that guy’s kinda sucky”

#

I think in canon it’s just been too long for any of the gods to hold real grudges anymore

#

Even Meg just sorta.. lets you let him go

#

Also when you summon Bouldy he gets smarmy at you

#

Also incredible tangent but when you summon Than in Meg's fight he really doesn't like it, and when you summon Meg when competing with Than he gets petulant and whiny

#

It's really cute

#

When you summon Meg against Than she's also like "Hi Than, Zag you literally don't need my help if he's here"

true harness
#

There are so many things I'm missing from only using batty and only on mini-boss

mortal dune
#

yeah man there's sooo much to do with even just base mechanics in game

#

Like you probably know this but the only companions you can use in the Hades fight at first are Skelly and Bouldy because everyone else is employed by Hades and therefore contractually cannot attack him

true harness
#

And similarly there is only one fight where you can't call Skelly

#

||Charon||

mortal dune
#

heheheheh

#

Bringing Skelly's tooth and talking with Hermes triggers a fun interaction as well

open berry
mortal dune
#

pfft fair enough

#

Ares in game might be a little more preoccupied with courting Nyx but I see the appeal

open berry
#

i personally never rly saw it as him trying to court her but everyone interprets things differently

mortal dune
#

Ares is myth is actually not super jerky iirc? He's not like, an ass for the sake of it. Although the thing with Aphrodite is a little jerky

#

I saw it as him courting her because Zag was like, mad uncomfortable about it

open berry
#

hes certainly more interested in (and holds more repect for) chthonic dealings as a whole more than any of the rest of his family is

mortal dune
#

this is true

#

Towards Chaos as well

open berry
#

ares makes everyone uncomfortable to varying degrees for various reasons lol

#

i have zero investment in ares/nyx so i choose not to see nor interpret that in the narrative

mortal dune
#

that's totally fair

#

Ares is incredibly lame I love him

open berry
#

given that ares is my fav by a wide margin i just kind of wish in general there had been more exploration of his interest in underworld affairs and gods beyond the nyx thing and than being like "yeah hes fine" but thats like. essentially just bc thats my blorbo of choice so naturally i wanted to see more yknow

mortal dune
#

We might see more of him in Hades 2, especially with Apollo and Kronos in the mix

#

Weh we didn't even get much of Ares and Aphrodite together

#

Which is unfortunate and a little weird?

#

I can't wait for the game's interpreation of Hephaestus though I'd be lying if I said I wanted them to talk about the love triangle

#

I know it's a significant myth it's also frankly uncomfortable

open berry
#

i know a lot of people love hephaestus and sympathize with him through that debacle and all but my opinion is that most pop culture opinions about ares are simply objectively wrong and regardless of which version of the myth you favour either way winds up with aphrodite married off and not having a say in it and i think they are both (ares mainly) treated unfairly over the affair thing. ares is largely loyal to aphrodite (mortals aside), and he doesnt have any known myths where he forces himself onto anyone, idk. why are they ridiculed for their relationship bc aphrodite got married off to hephaestus but like everything zeus does is just treated as a haha funny joke. looool hes cheating on hera again, just zeus things! gods are just like that tee hee! i hate the entire thing fr 😭

#

anyway obviously i love ares in hades bc hes not like most depictions of ares. which are tiresome.

mortal dune
#

He also protects women IIRC? Wasn't he the patron god of the Amazons?

open berry
#

ya, and for as much as it gets brought up that he killed a son of poseidon, people tend to conveniently fail to mention WHY he did that (defending one of his daughters from being assaulted by said son)

mortal dune
#

Hephaestus is interesting to me because he's the one I can conceptualize the least

open berry
#

ares tends to be pretty retaliatory

mortal dune
#

Like with every other god they're personifications of the forces of nature for the most part, but Hephaestus' main domain is manmade and therefore more contentious

true harness
#

I mean, aphrodite was married off to hephaestus as a deal. I wouldn't exactly blame her to pursue other people than her husband when she didn't chose him.

mortal dune
#

I wouldn't either is the thing

#

man

#

Marriage in greek myth was weird

#

Outside of Hades and Persephone I think the only pantheonic Olympian god with a healthy marriage was Dionysus, which is actually hilarious

#

The wild frat bro you partied with in college turns out to be a comparitively decent husband

true harness
#

I mean, the bar is incredibly low too

static rose
#

And I'd wager Dio wouldn't have a traditionally closed/monogamous relationship (not that this is a bad thing)

mortal dune
#

Dio was rather faithful, rescued her from hell, made her a god, had I think three children

#

I would say so as well (he has had other lovers, I think Ampelos was one) but the myths never depict him as cheating on her iirc so it’s safe to assume there was no bad blood there

#

Hades had also had other lovers too

true harness
#

thinking about it, are there any virgin male god ? I can think of at least 3 goddess among the olympians, but no god comes to mind

mortal dune
#

Does Hephaestus have any canonical children?

true harness
mortal dune
#

Yeah he’s got a son or two

true harness
mortal dune
#

Myth says they never consummated their marriage iirc

#

She really did Not like him

true harness
#

hmm

#

any other potential god ?

#

because I'm really not sold on hephaestus being a virgin god to the same level as, say, athena.

mortal dune
#

Only ones I could think of that might be are the chtonics

#

Than and Hypnos are both out (Thanatos has a daughter and Hypnos has the Oneroi)

#

Moros apparently has no-one?

true harness
mortal dune
#

Haha this dude’s lame /j

#

Yeah I don’t imagine purity was something the Greeks valued in men? If a god had no children they probably had to be obscure.

supple walrus
#

yeah virginity wasn't really a thing for men. like even if someone technically was, it wouldn't be mentioned the same way as it is for women

true harness
#

sadge zagsad

supple walrus
#

why sadge

true harness
#

because virginity in men is valid, and it's nice to see that being reflected. Even in weird mythos from two millenia ago.

supple walrus
#

pffft virginity is fake for everyone

but yeah ok when it's a thing that's valued it should be valued in everyone

mortal dune
#

I like that we have some ace/aromantic relationship rep with Dusa

#

I don’t really count Artemis cuz it’s not super explicit but Dusa is explicit and I enjoy her relationship with Zag a lot

#

I interpret them as having a QPR

atomic forge
earnest terrace
#

honestly i just view zag and dusa's relationship as a simple "good friends that agree they shouldn't date" kind of thing

#

not inclined to put a label on it, it's just a nice and reasonable dynamic

true harness
#

that's what a QPR can be 🤷‍♂️

#

QPRs are hella nebulous tbh

mortal dune
#

that's the whole point innit

true harness
#

yeah

mortal dune
#

A QPR is only defined by what the relevant partners consider it to be, so in the case of Zag and Dusa they do talk about how their relationship is a little different from a regular platonic friendship iirc?

#

So you can interpret it as plainly platonic but I prefer to have fun with it :3

true harness
#

valid

earnest terrace
true harness
#

Random thought : I feel like Eurydice is a wasted character. Half of her character is defined by her relationship with Orpheus but without much depth. In fact, once they're together, I find them kinda boring. I wish she was more fleshed out about her own things, and about her own opinion of Orpheus and their couple, and how she felt during the ordeal of trying to escape.
BUT
Even then, she's awesome. And I find it mind boggling and fitting since I'm a SGG fanboy that SGG's failed characters are better than most people's successful chars zaglol

earnest terrace
#

That's just how Orpheus and Eurydice are in general, they're a classic myth tale and it's basically narratively impossible for one of them to exist without relation to the other

#

Especially with Eurydice herself

mortal dune
#

I mean, they turn her into a Nymph, she could talk about her siblings or something

#

Orpheus was also an Argonaut he could have told more stories about that

true harness
#

with all the character they gave to asterius and skelly, I don't see why Eurydice couldn't get an upgrade

#

I would have loved to see her be lovey-dovey with Orpheus tbh. I find their interactions slightly underwhelming.

mortal dune
#

yeah

#

Yeah that's it

#

I don't really consider them to be "in-love" because Eurydice is still hurt by his attempt and Orpheus is too sad about it to talk about much else with regards to her

#

They don't talk about much of their history together or what they have in common or even what they really like about each other anymore, which is a bit of a missed opportunity

earnest terrace
#

But yeah it is a bit unfortunate how Orpheus is just 'sad boy' and Eurydice is just 'sassy food girl'

mortal dune
#

A lot of the characters in Hades are similarly shallow (and, to be honest, so are a lot of other SG characters), so it's not as though they were specifically stunted in this way? But yeah I think Eurydice especially is shafted more than most, really quite unfortunate

static rose
#

I don't get this. These are side characters, optional in many cases. You can't try to write every character to be equally deep, that's just bad writing. It's the story of Zag and his relationship with Hades and Persephone. Other characters add flavour but they aren't the main meal.

#

Eurydice and Orpheus both have (related) character arcs, but once those arcs are done it's mechanically difficult to have them engage in long, multi-part interactions (since some players will just be seeing them infrequently enough to make it confusing).

#

They become "familiar friends" you pop in an see who are "living their lives" better thanks to you.

pseudo stump
#

Ah, ensemble casts

mortal dune
#

Side characters are tools like any other element within a story

#

So they’re meant to prop up the themes and morals conveyed by the main plotline

#

And for the most part we do see this with characters like Sisyphus and Orphy+Eurydice with regards to themes like contentment and making amends, so you are correct in that they serve their function there

#

However, it’s the ways in which they accomplish this role that makes them fall flat in my opinion

#

For the most part each NPC plot-line we play with gives us a problem and lets us solve it, but they also do not really expound upon or address the social/cultural/even political nuances that propel the plot-line mechanically

#

Orpheus and Eurydice are important because their story is meant to support the theme about how and why it is important to work to repair/improve your relationships with the people you love, a theme that applies quite fittingly to the overall narrative of Hades and Zagreus.

#

However, by not exploring the ways and whys and hows of how Orpheus and Eurydice love each other, why their relationship failed in the past (outside of the actual textual reason, we’re more referring to personality flaws and clashes here), and why this new relationship is better and healthier, all we’re really getting from them textually is “talking about your feelings even if you’re scared or hurt can maybe lead to good things”, which isn’t a terribly profound point to make- especially when compared to the nuances of Hades and Zag’s relationship, of which all of the previously-mentioned elements we actually get to see/understand.

#

Eurydice was furious at Orpheus, and we only lightly touch upon why. Then, when she isn’t furious anymore, we don’t really get to understand why that is either.

#

Outside of Zagreus pushing her to do so constantly

#

One could argue it was more implied than explicitly stated and I wouldn’t necessarily disagree, but if that were the case the implications would have required a little bit more… implication. Again, it wouldn’t even need to extend their storyline, as there are numerous instances in the game where you can talk to both characters about things other than their relationship. A few of these could have been dedicated to exploring different, deeper facets of their personalities with regards to other matters in their life in ways that reflect upon the mechanics of their relationship and how that applies to the overall story

#

Does Eurydice have siblings? Is that why she’s so headstrong and responsible (and maybe egocentric)? Is that why she’s mad at Orpheus, because he didn’t trust her, did something irresponsible, and angered the gods/got separated from her?

#

What was Orpheus like as an Argonaut? Did it give him a sense of self-importance/hubris? Is that why he decided to do his whole spiel?

#

We even see a little bit of this with Orpheus especially! Orpheus trolls Zagreus with the song he writes about him, demonstrating a more playful side to him, which (if we were really getting into extrapolation aka fanfic territory) could also represent a side to him that attracted/attracts Eurydice in some way.

#

https://youtu.be/9c3s17NvX5M?si=a6zjnLtBMyfFgbKI

This is a good video that really works hard to deconstructs the idea of the ‘side character’. Them being less narratively important does not mean they don’t require depth, y’know?

YouTube
schnee
This is a PERFECT Side Character (ft IRL Ekko) | ARCANE (Ekko Analy...

#LeagueOfLegends #Netflix

Whose side is Ekko on? Why is his intro so weird? What’s up with the hourglass on his face? Great side characters use EVERY LITTLE DETAIL available to them in their characterization. Ekko is Arcane’s best side character because of how packed and powerful his characterization is. Every detail of his design and his ac...

▶ Play video
#

But yeah, as it stands, coming directly out of the text itself there’s not much depth to either of these characters, and what depth is there in regards to how they react to things in their lives is more told to us after the fact, than demonstrated literally.

#

Which, to a point, does only serve to reduce them to ‘sad emo boy’ and ‘sassy food girl’

true harness
#

Also I wanted my heartwarming lovey couple u_u

mortal dune
#

me toooooo :(

true harness
#

Patroclus and Achilles are beyond amazing but they're way too stoic to indulge my glurge

#

Is that even the word

mortal dune
#

I need to revist Patroclus and Achilles arc

#

I think Pat is also rather flat though, he's just kinda depressed and moody most of the time

#

It's funny and cute which suffices

patent acorn
true harness
#

Patroclus shares a few wise moments, like about the Lethe, Elysium or Theseus

mortal dune
#

Ye I don’t doubt it, he has commentary about the nature of heroism within Ancient Greek culture and stuff, which is relevant to his death and issues with Achilles

#

So there’s not nothing there

#

I probably find him flatter than most cuz I think his personality is comparatively a little boring. With Eurydice I thought she was funny and fiesty and I liked her singing, and Sisyphus was darkly cheerful and charming, but Patroclus- though funny in his own right to an extent (the way he’s suuuch an overdramatic snarky lovesick goth teenager-in-an-old-man’s-body tickled me rosy)- he didn’t really pull me in the same way.

mortal dune
#

Just through the way he interacts with Zag and the things we see him do/hear him talk about, we see he’s resolved and dutiful but not doormat-y obedient, he has a past that he looks back on poorly and appreciates the path of self-improvement he’s on (encouraging that same growth in Zag), has taken on a mentorly-almost-paternal affect, etc

patent acorn
#

that's fair. he is overly dramatic about it compared to what other characters might react as

mortal dune
#

That’s true pfft

#

A good note to Pat and Achilles is that, taking into consideration the actual myth, they’ve gone on opposite character arcs

#

Achilles has learned to be more thoughtful and considerate, while Pat has grown to be spiteful and self-focused.

#

Though I like this aspect to them I also sadly don’t necessarily consider it textual depth, as it’s not really exemplified in their characters as demonstrated in game. It was certainly intended by the writers, I just find it too buried under reference and required knowledge to be perceptible to the average or even majorly-engaged player, thereby also making it a less significant/impactful element to their character writing.

patent acorn
#

i see

#

yeah i recently bought the song of achilles to get more context

#

will have to read it

mortal dune
#

All I would advise you is to be aware that it’s not a necessarily faithful retelling/adaptation of the original and that there will most likely be aspects to their relationship that is reworked or left out to make the story Madeline Miller wanted. Not a sin at all on her part, just an important note.

Hope it’s a good read! I tried picking up Circe but I didn’t quite like it :’(

patent acorn
#

I’m sure haha

supple walrus
supple walrus
# mortal dune I don’t quite agree with this point because Achilles has gone through the exact ...

i think the difference between achilles and patroclus is that 1) purely game mechanics wise, we see a lot more of achilles. he is relevant to more of the story than the achilles / pat arc, we interact with him after pretty much every run, he probably has a lot more lines overall

  1. story wise, achilles has more agency and more people around him he has meaningful relations with. patroclus didn't choose to go to elysium, he feels out of place there / doesn't relate to the heroes / has no one to socialize with, and he no longer likes the only activity you can do there. that on top of not knowing what happened to achilles is what's bringing him down and for me it is understandable that without much capacity for action, he'd sit depressed next to lethe for eternity.

i think this may also be a personal thing though, because as someone who also has spent years moping and sleeping and being depressed etc after Bad Things (trademark), i relate to the not-so-social, not-deep characters that don't do a lot (see also: than), whereas they're just boring to you :p

mortal dune
mortal dune
#

Patroclus bemoaning his lack of agency is less a character trait and more a matter of his circumstances imo? It doesn't tell us super much about who he is outside of his feelings of isolation, rejection, confusion etc., all of which are not necessarily specific to him (a lot of people in his situation will probably feel the same way).

#

It ties into his history and the reason for his death for sure, but like with Eurydice I would have liked to see a little bit more thematically-relevant substance out of him

#

If I were to connect Patroclus' story to the main story in any way I think it would be that he mirrors Zagreus' feelings of being trapped (tying into that lack of agency aspect), his rage at his situation

#

But if that were the case I'd want a deeper look into how they mirror each other in that way (their different takes on how to approach that lack of agency) through their interactions with each other

azure cradle
#

So

#

Many

#

Paragraphs

mortal dune
#

I like to write analysis and analysis needs no brevity 😅

supple walrus
#

too few paragraphs actually. this channel would be boring if no one wrote walls of text

#

(genuine)

low crescent
#

two weird thnigs i noticed

#

1/ zag can spar with minotaur in elysium before facing the boss duo (minotoru + theseus) -- why does zag allow minotaur to escape once he defeats him? if zag killed minotaur instead he'd only have to face theseus as the boss of elysium

#

2/ trial of gods. really, there are gods who stand against zeus? if i remember mythology correctly gods to have some sort of a pecking order. none of them would dare to demand someone to chose themselves over zeus!

#

(and if zag does chose zeus over anyone else, honestly, that anyone else cant feel insulted, this is the only proper choice)

patent acorn
#

So hades protects the bull from death because there’s still a whole other fight for him to be alive for

patent acorn
zenith wedge
#

Asterius-zag treat their matches as sparring tbh

mortal dune
#

If Zag can get by without killing somebody he will, it’s just that that’s not always possible for him lol

earnest terrace
atomic coral
#

Just remember everyone that this is pinned

mortal dune
earnest terrace
#

That's really cute

#

I like that

elder summit
#

How many of the titans are imprisoned in the underworld?

inland pawn
earnest terrace
#

some (e.g. hyperion) are established to be just straight up gone

#

utterly wiped from existence

atomic forge
#

And Atlas was forced to hold up the sky

lunar jay
#

I love hades lore

#

best lore

#

besides elden ring

static lion
#

elden ring lore.. bouldy

mortal dune
#

Nothing against you specifically as it’s an observation in the development of language, but it’s quite funny to me the general trend of people referring to a media’s narrative as it’s “lore”. The “lore” of Hades the Game is literally just modified Greek Mythology lol

atomic coral
#

Nah Mc lore is a w

static lion
earnest terrace
#

e.g. the alterations to family/sibling relationships

static sparrow
#

is there any way of keeping track of room completion? i'd like to know how many rooms there are until the next boss.

zenith wedge
#

see room count by pressing B/- on kbm/controller respectively

#

at top right

static sparrow
#

you are awesome

#

thank you

true harness
#

@static sparrow small caveat : this gets changed if and only if you enter a chaos/Erebus after the last combat of the biome. This will be a "bonus" room that will increase the count but still lead to the end shop before the boss

static sparrow
#

right, makes sense.

subtle birch
static sparrow
#

does refreshing nectar stack with charon's "up rarity of next boon"?

patent acorn
#

So they’ll apply one after the other

static sparrow
#

oh sorry

zenith wedge
patent acorn
zenith wedge
#

Who needs reading

patent acorn
#

Real

low flax
#

the game making ||greece|| inaccessible after the main story is completed is just so mean 😭 that greek sun was my legit serotonin

patent acorn
#

Return to Greece mod

low flax
patent acorn
#

Fs

#

Shoutout to the speedrunning mod pack and first boon epic if you’re into that as well

ebon sigil
#

Demeter dropping story bombs out of nowhere

low flax
#

demeter is literally what connects you to the end of the story so yes lmao

subtle birch
inland pawn
#

do i need to|| reunite orpheus and eurydice and free sisyphus to get achilles to reunite with paty?|| (spoiler)

#

cause if it was the case, then rip

subtle birch
subtle birch
#

trying to powerscale Zagreus but bro cannonically died to a MOUNTAIN GOAT should I just quit?

true harness
#

he died to the narrator

#

who is the single most powerful entity in the game

#

so it doesn't say much

mortal dune
#

So in the Underworld he’s mad dog but on Earth he’s weaker than an average person due to naïveté and poor constitution

subtle birch
#

bro isnt even continent level

normal zephyr
#

i miss my wife guys (Than)
i miss him a lot...
ill be back... (going to make a new save just so i can see Than again)

urban bloom
supple walrus
#

you forgot nyx' mirror

#

unless boonless ri4

true harness
#

I mean, you say that like "his dad" is no one special

#

As far as olympians power levels go, the only people that might be above Hades are his brothers (ok, zeus very probably is stronger, but poseidon I'm not entirely sure) and demeter.

mortal dune
#

Yeah boonless/mirrorless runs prove that he canonically can beat his father without any of the Gods’ assistance

#

And the weapons themselves are not beyond exemplary in that every other God uses similar tools, thus leveling the playing field

zenith wedge
#

Tbh that's my wonder of hades 2

#

If only "zag with the help of the olympians managed to escape the underworld and blah blah blah" will be the canon

#

Or they'll play into the use of the pact (and if so, I hope for EM lines lol)

mortal dune
#

I mean it Is canon

#

There’s specific dialogue for it meaning that it Is something that happens in universe

#

And other characters congratulate/get snippy at him for not needing the Mirror (Meg is my first example I don’t remember any others)

subtle birch
#

has there been a monster to face hell mode lv 4 hades

#

mirrorless boonless

mortal dune
#

https://youtu.be/SVfmQVHQZeM?si=8Ols6lduL5UzzXOc this person did regular hades boonless mirrorless hammerless

YouTube
ronnoc3115
No Boons, No Hammers, No Mirror! | Hades Challenge Run

This is a challenge run in Hades where you complete an escape attempt with ZERO Boons, Hammers, or Darkness in the Mirror of Night.
In-Game-Time to complete the run was 20:57. I could definitely get it under 20 minutes with a 2-sack Styx and cutting out some frivolous time-wasting.

I already completed a "No Boons, No Hammers" run with every wea...

▶ Play video
#

But hell mode sounds crazy

inland pawn
#

pls help, meg is making me go insane

twilit flare
inland pawn
#

no

#

if it was her fight i wouldnt be talking here

#

its her story

idle lagoon
twilit flare
#

both are making me insane ngl

inland pawn
#

but i think its just rng giving me the middle finger

#

i have 230+ escape encounters she will NOT show up in my room 😭

idle lagoon
#

did you max bond yet

subtle birch
#

"ooooh Ambrosia"

idle lagoon
#

I remember I had a hard time giving than ambrosia bc of the convos that will lead to unlocking his favour, meg works the same way I think

#

they only show up in your room after the 3rd so gl lol

subtle birch
#

well for me

#

she first went to my room to collect her stuff

#

and after completely deepened her bond

#

and after 3 runs

#

she went to ma room

#

to do the deed

idle lagoon
#

yeah I remember when she came to collect her stuff

#

but it took a lot more runs after

#

there was like a series of convos

subtle birch
#

huh really?

#

she kinda went in randomly

inland pawn
idle lagoon
#

it doesn't unlock her favour iirc

idle lagoon
inland pawn
#

yuh

idle lagoon
#

💀

inland pawn
#

shes screwing with me

#

both metaphorically and soon enough (i hope), physically

idle lagoon
#

can always try to run into her in tartarus and then kill yourself after

#

and then talk to her and see if that'll speed things up lol

inland pawn
#

i hope so,

#

WAIT A MINUTE

#

NOOOOOOOOOOOO

#

WHYYYY

ebon sigil
#

OH COME ON! The run I have an absurdly OP build with 3 extra lives and that's the time he doesn't want to fight and just lets me pass

#

I am so salty

idle lagoon
#

o bc 10th

#

||true end incoming||

#

enjoy the upcoming scenes

ebon sigil
#

I'm too bitter from not getting to properly fight with the bow (for the first time at hades) to enjoy the cutscenes 😂

#

Had such a nice build I wanted to try out

#

Ok it was very cute that our #1 fan is seen in Elysium during the boattrip

idle lagoon
subtle birch
#

ngl that moment was epic

#

3 extra lives but eh kinda worth it imo

ebon sigil
#

It's kind of HECKED up that the codex doesn't give the details of Euridice story

#

Since it's one of the most famous and saddest in Greek mythos

#

Leaving out that Orpheus literally travelled down to the lowest part of the underworld, then played a song so beautiful and sad that even the dead wept, just so Hades would let his love go.

#

With Hades accepting on the terms that he never once look back at her until he had left the underworld. Orpheus almost made it out but her empty dead voice had filled him with doubt and in the last moments of their escape he looked back to see if it was really her. A face of grief met his gaze, for he had now sealed both their fates, for it was indeed Euridice he had in tow.

supple walrus
#

probably didn't give the details because it's one of the most famous stories anyway

ebon sigil
#

I still doubt most people who play the game know it

#

Which is weird that they have pretty large codex with the gist of it but not the beautiful details that make it so poetic

supple walrus
#

they also don't give details of the iliad in achilles' codex or explain what exactly's up with sisiphus in his. codex is there to give game relevant info on the characters - everything else you're supposed to know already or look up outside the game. imo

#

have you gotten orpheus' line on what his story means? he says it's "when someone tells you to not look back, don't look back :("

mortal dune
#

Felt like a complete misunderstanding of the point of Orpheus and Eurydice to me?

#

The post I sent in earlier summarized it better than I can but wasn't the whole point of the myth that Orpheus' strength (the overwhelming love he had for Eurydice that drove him to try rescuing her in the first place) was also his folly (that same love was also what made him mess up in the first place)?

#

As the game plays it Orpheus' real issue/fatal flaw was that he didn't follow the rules as set by an antagonising force and therefore deserved to be punished for it

#

Which is a weird sentiment and almost authoritarian in nature (which is also antithetical to Zag's storyline?)

#

And also makes Eurydice's anger feel almost petty in foundation 😅

#

Like, it comes across as the only reason's she's mad is that he messed up by disobeying the gods (cheating her out of another chance at life), completely forgetting that he even tried to rescue her in the first place

#

Like, was Orphy's mistake so overwhelmingly devastating/insulting? To the point that he has to seek absolution from Eurydice for the rest of his afterlife?

#

To an extent the game shows that she's just being stubborn and stuck in her ways, but to me that doesn't impact much as it still holds her up as the more correct one out of the two of them? Like, Orphy has to apologize to her (making up for his part in their relationship falling apart), but she never really has to come to terms with her own flaws and part in that (her stubbornness kept her from reaching out to him/accepting his bids for connection)

ebon sigil
ebon sigil
#

Greeks love their anti-hubris stories

#

I think the game tries to play on the thought that it was his doubt in her and her voice, as they escaped, is why she's sour at him. But I could be wrong

mortal dune
open berry
#

i would honestly argue the myth of orpheus is more well known in like pop culture than the myth of sisyphus imo

mortal dune
#

Yeah I would say the same

#

Sisyphus is popular because of Sartre

open berry
#

ppl know sisyphus memes but never really know anything else about him

mortal dune
#

This is true

supple walrus
# mortal dune this bit always came off weird to me

I think it's just a joke

Because obviously there's more to the story than "Do what you are told", but Orpheus in his melancholy can't see that. The joke is that we know there's more to it, so Orphy himself breaking it down to that is... funny

true harness
supple walrus
#

didn't sartre write that thing about sisiphus, um... being disgusted by everything? no?

true harness
#

Maybe tbh

#

I haven't read Sartre

supple walrus
#

(it was a joke, i'm sorrybouldy )

true harness
#

But I think the camus version is more widespread?

supple walrus
#

i just mixed "sisiphus is..." with the first thing i associate with sartre that also isn't happy (it was nausea)

#

i'm sorrybouldy

true harness
#

I forgive you... As soon as you roll that boulder all the way up

supple walrus
#

nobouldy did anyone ever ask bouldy if he consents to being rolled up there anywaybouldy

true harness
#

Sisyphus 100% did at one point

inland pawn
#

holy crap I finally realized what I'm doing wrong with meg

urban bloom
#

what time period is hades set in? on one hand, it's greek mythology. On the other hand, there's fast food and one of the weapons is a machine gun w/ underbarrel grenade launcher

raven flicker
urban bloom
#

in hades 2 chronos is an antagonist

#

maybe he did some time shenanigans to bring fast food to 500 BCE

raven flicker
#

well he is the titan of time

#

it makes sense

mortal dune
#

The adamant rail is explicitly mentioned to be a very rudimentary form of a gun that is sourced as the inspiration for modern rifles I believe

#

Hades himself talks about the potential dangers of it

urban bloom
#

it can't be that rudimentary if it comes with a grenade launcher

mortal dune
#

Rudimentary as in they don’t got no mega tech on it

deep canyon
#

the rail was canonically used however long ago by hestia etc wasnt it

mortal dune
#

Yup

#

During the Titanomachy

deep canyon
#

and the gyro and fries is probably not very serious

#

theres probably not many foods from 2000 years ago that would be recognizable as food

mortal dune
#

We always got bread 🥖

deep canyon
#

true

urban bloom
#

and meat 🥩

mortal dune
#

And onions!

#

And fish

urban bloom
#

in fact most fast food is just some iteration of bread + meat

mortal dune
#

The gyro is just a bit of a gag symbol for sure

deep canyon
#

tbh i think the biggest tell is that according to hades/other characters humans believe in greek mythology

urban bloom
#

true

deep canyon
#

which definitely puts it in like the 2000+ years ago era

urban bloom
#

also none of the exalted warriors have AK47s

mortal dune
#

The big chronology issue I have is the NPCs themselves and their stories

#

In that the Trojan War meant a lot with regards to various myths

#

As well as Sisyphus and Thanatos’ whole bit

#

Also that Persephone returns home from Olympus in the span of a few runs, meaning that each run takes up a significant amount of time between the 6 months (making it so the rate at which time passes is different for us versus the gods)

urban bloom
#

either that or zagreus canonically has a skill issue

#

so each escape takes him 6 months

deep canyon
#

maybe it just takes him that long to float back home in the styx

true harness
#

Gyros are ancient greek food, not modern. And fries, well, potatoes are not greek at all but they might have fried something else ? I don't know how to actually fry it though. But I imagine it could be done even 2500 years ago

open berry
#

the game isnt really meant to reference any specific point in time and thats intentional → #ask-supergiant message

subtle birch
frozen jolt
#

mom look I’m a real man

patent acorn
#

Mom look I’m On Time by Metro Boomin

ebon sigil
ebon sigil
#

But it has been a favourite of mine since I was a young kid and I've always wanted to see it displayed

#

I guess there's a lot of "failed lovers" or the whole defying gods to help your love in pop-culture, but I don't feel they capture the poetry and sadness of Orpheus tale. Hell this game doesn't which is why I mentioned it to begin with 😄

subtle birch
#

would love to hear about Apollo

#

and his 6 dead/imprisoned girlfriends

ebon sigil
#

Oh lawde the Dusa storyline is a rollercoaster

supple walrus
# ebon sigil Anecdotal but I've never seen it referenced before this game. Maybe there's some...

https://americanshakespearecenter.com/2023/03/eurydice-in-pop-culture/

https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/orpheus-through-the-ages

American Shakespeare Center
ASC
Eurydice in Pop Culture | American Shakespeare Center

The myth of Orpheus and Eurydice has been retold countless times. Here are some of our favorite examples of this Greek legend in modern pop culture!

The New Yorker
Orpheus Through the Ages
ebon sigil
#

Kate Bernheimer

#

Less than 7% of people watch theatre, opera or ballet live and out of those 7% it's spread across all the myths, stories and ballads.

Which makes it less than 1-2% of entire population that has seen it in that medium.

supple walrus
#

orpheus was in disney's hercules series, too. didn't remember that

ebon sigil
#

Exactly my point 😄

true harness
#

Persona 3 has Orpheus zaggrin

supple walrus
#

"(protagonist shoots gun) i am orpheus, master of strings screeeeech"

never seen an adaptation so close to the source materialzagluv

ebon sigil
#

*Mara

true harness
#

We don't talk about him

earnest terrace
#

mada mada

ebon sigil
ebon sigil
#

I don't like the end of the Dusa story tho

#

Makes me feel sleezy for just being a friend giving a friend ambrosia etc.

true harness
#

What

ebon sigil
#

That she doesn't want the ambroisa because she didn't know how Zag felt

#

Tho at least accepting them back does give a good response but I still feel bad for them

subtle birch
#

"gimmie that sh back"

supple walrus
#

unhinged head canon hot take i tried really hard to contain in my mind but have to share with you

zag is trans or something. as god of blood, he should have a uterus. change my mind

subtle birch
#

not really that hes the god of blood

#

but mythologically he can shapeshift

#

just like Zeus

#

and abt the blood thing uhh

#

I think bro has to be like the god of dna to do that

earnest terrace
#

i mean headcanons be headcanons and trans representation is good

#

but it's a bit of a jump from 'god of blood' to 'must have uterus' imo

supple walrus
#

you don't think the idea i introduced as completely unhinged head canon is something that logically has to follow from the text?? offensive😤

supple walrus
subtle birch
#

by the gods

earnest terrace
subtle birch
#

*Dusa gets fired

#

Zagreus with his overwhelming wealth: "Alr how much, this time?"

ebon sigil
#

I mean, does it matter? He seems to want to HECK everyone regardless 😄

normal zephyr
#

ive been replaying the game and just now i realized that the reason on the first run both Than and Meg is so determent to keep Zag down there (mostly Meg but Than was pretty upset about it too) is because they didnt know Zag would die on Earth and thought he was leaving for good

#

idk just a cool thing i thought abt

raven flicker
#

wait that’s actually adorable

ebon sigil
#

lol poseidon fishing boon

regal pollen
true harness
#

I understood it as Zagreus inheriting Hades' curse

#

But they did say it had something to do with being born in the underworld, so idk 🤷‍♂️

#

I also think they mention at some point that Than doesn't stay on the surface for long ? Like, he still spends a lot of time in the underworld on the job. So maybe he doesn't stay up long enough to be forced back to the styx

urban patrol
#

I suspect it's because the others are children of Nyx and not Hades.

#

AKA not necessarily having been born in the underworld.

#

Just born out of the night.

regal pollen
#

that would check out

#

You’d think that him being the offspring of Persephone would at least extend the amount of time he’d be allowed up there but i guess his cthonic side outweighs it

#

Then again, i guess only Charon and Thanatos would need to be able to leave

#

And Charon is probably only up there for minutes at a time anyway

#

One completely separate thing i have always wondered though

In the hypothetical that the game takes place during a real time in history
or i guess a specific spot in the timeline of the mythology
When is it?

true harness
#

some time after the trojan war

#

Ares (and thanatos) also mentions another big war on the surface at the same time

#

And there's the whole "eternal winter" thing, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't fit any particular time in common greek myths

wide wind
#

hades is something i view as like alternate reality greek mythology; it's grounded in reality with the characters and the physical place, but it takes creative liberties in order to tell the story how it needs to be told. so it leaves room for things like gyros with fries and a gun, and, like juncoril mentioned, a nonspecific big war. these are things that would be harder to pass off if the game was set in a specific time frame.

#

hades is a game with some "just roll with it" type aspects to it, which is something that's come up in pyre also, and things like that can be difficult to pull off but i think sgg did it well.

true harness
#

rule of cool : it doesn't matter how blatantly stupid something is, as long as it's even cooler.

#

If your players will think "wait, this doesn't make sense" but 99% of their neurons are allocated to thinking "HOLY THIS IS SO GOOD" it doesn't matter

wide wind
#

i definitely agree

supple walrus
ebon sigil
urban patrol
#

Maybe it will get repurposed for Hades 2.

subtle birch
#

so being born from Hades, Zag

#

I think he was normal

#

but when he got jumped by the titans (spoilers) ||died and revived by Nyx, he was like, the Fates changed his fate or something, bounding him to the Underworld||

mortal dune
#

He wasn’t jumped by the Titans that’s just the original myth

#

In the game he was stillborn

#

Its ambiguous but there’s a few possible explanations/factors

#
  1. Inheriting Hades’ curse
  2. He died when he was born, so he’s functionally half-dead
  3. His blood is the same as the Styx so he can’t really leave it?
#

The first is the most likely and iirc the canon answer though

subtle birch
#

so he was born

#

father being bound to the dead, mother being kinda of the god of life

#

death and life being opposites

#

bro died quite quickly

#

but then the Fates did some shenanigans

#

bounding him to the Underworld so he cant die

#

wait, does this mean he is dead?

mortal dune
#

Ye

azure cradle
#

Because

#

God's can't die

#

You can do horrible things to them

#

But they can't die

#

For example Chronos

subtle birch
#

ed

#

bro was a hollow purple

azure cradle
#

He's not "dead" though

subtle birch
#

red(hades, death) blue(persep, life)

#

and bam

#

dead

azure cradle
#

That should be a duo boon

#

Hades plus Persephone

#

"hollow something or other"

subtle birch
#

"mom and dad I think, I'm the honored one afterall"

#

"boy wth boy"

patent acorn
#

you can leave yk

#

bro has infinite time

zenith wedge
#

<@&456908176877551658>