Bruiser is the worst outlier of BP
#h1-builds-and-combat
true pilot
dry ember
No, you can't
turbid arch
but it is always Bruiser + something else that is going to be a pain
dry ember
But
turbid arch
and it is always both on multiple enemies
dry ember
Bruiser and anything is bad
turbid arch
In multiple rooms
true pilot
I mean, I just posted that exact feedback a few minutes ago
dry ember
so it is a vacum in that sense
true pilot
BP only applies to armored enemies, who are already tankier than normal enemies.
All of the other benefits give something that the upgraded enemy doesn't have yet. Bruiser just ramps up their already boosted tanking ability.
dry ember
I feel like we are beating the horse that is Bruiser being broken lol
true pilot
I'm kind of fine with it in principle, but I think it should take the form of more Calisthenics Program levels as opposed to a random roll.
turbid arch
Maybe only apply one effect and have that one rank go for 4 or 5 heat?
true pilot
Want to make everything super spongy? Go for it! Want everything deadlier so you can rush? Here's a random 1~2 minute single non-boss target.
dry ember
what's the most painful pact you can make with the lowest heat possible?
turbid arch
That is a weird question.
Most painful with the lowest heat possible?
That is a huge grey area.
dry ember
I'm thinking AP2 UC TD2 JSmax CProgram max
turbid arch
BP Jury Summons Calisthenics Programm 2x Blue Shields and Tight deadline.
dry ember
on bow
turbid arch
Maybe Extreme Measures on top.
That just makes everything so tanky that you will struggle against Tight Deadline on every occassion.
cunning urchin
I don't have a problem with Bruiser per se—only with certain combos. Bruiser + Puller is a big problem because you can neither hitstun nor escape. Bruiser Snakestones have way too much HP and armor, so that should be individually fixed. I think the rest are all workable. At least I can't think of any other combo where Bruiser is the problem. Actually, Bruiser Giant Rats because there's just way too much uninterrupted poison spread coming from them that you can do absolutely nothing about.
true pilot
Summons 2, Calisthenics 2, with TD 2.
Bruiser Skulls and Louts never stop moving and can be hard to get a pin on, especially for being in Tartarus when you don't have that much power yet.
cunning urchin
Yeah, but you have plenty of time in Tartarus.
Hard Labor 5, Lasting Consequences 4.
true pilot
Not true.
cunning urchin
What's not true?
mighty ermine
quick question since i've never tried it and might: does keeping acorn through a biome transition replenish its charges?
say you use all 5 on the elysium duo
do you get them back for styx?
true pilot
Styx exarcebates the problem with sack rng, but it's not the only place where the timer can be a problem.
Especially if you get more than 1 bruiser room.
cunning urchin
I've never had trouble with TD2 in Tartarus or Asphodel on 32 or 33 heat. Not once.
true pilot
@mighty ermine Yes, it's 5 hits per boss.
mighty ermine
got it, thanks
turbid arch
There are runs where even in Tartarus, the TD can get rough.
If you go for an Erebus Challenge Room, you can easily spend a minute or two in there.
true pilot
It also depends on your weapon
cunning urchin
But that's always with Malphon. So I can't comment on other weapons.
turbid arch
Also that.
cunning urchin
Yes, of course.
true pilot
non-chaos shield, bow, spear and sword can struggle.
fist and rail have the advantage of coming with small-multi-fast-hit and slow-big-area as options, so you can capitalize on just about anything you find.
And rail can win on hammers alone if your boons are terrible.
cunning urchin
Styx TD2 on 32~33 has only been a problem once when one room had 5 Bruiser Snakestones that took a couple years to take down.
turbid arch
Also heavily depends on weapon aspects and pact set-up.
Excalibur has a way easier time going through all levels of heat than the remaining weapons.
true pilot
Excalibur is... no comments.
turbid arch
Nemesis is pretty much the easiest sword to engineer a competent and damagewise strong run around
true pilot
I hate it.
turbid arch
and Poseidon has a lot of potencial going for it.
I would say that Excalibur is one of the top 5 weapon aspects in the game right now.
maybe even top 3.
turbid arch
Chaos shield still exists
true pilot
DR equal to God Mode, built in Cerberus Collar, spread-fire damage numbers without a hammer, and it disables traps.
turbid arch
Chaos Shield and Arthur are in a class on their own because you can almost always engineer a competent run around them without being reliant on a good set of hammers
true pilot
Once you get a hang of the animation timing, it's literally broken.
turbid arch
which none of the Bows could say about themselves, for example
true pilot
Chaos shield is... yeah. It's the only weapon that can challenge Arthur.
turbid arch
The Rail is OP with Spread Fire, but without it......just good, above average, but not balls to the wall OP.
The Fists are imo the weakest weapon in the game.
true pilot
Rail at least has the decency of needing a hammer to roll spread fire and finding either Artemis or Demeter to really go off.
turbid arch
The Bow is super hammer reliant.
true pilot
Though Rail is still strong outside of the outlier.
turbid arch
The spear.....second weakest weapon probably, but Guan Yu is special in its own way.
I feel like Guan Yu would have been a top 3 weapon contender IF
and that is a huge if
Benefits Package would not exist.
true pilot
Guan Yu is unfortunately the only good spear #don'tAtMe
turbid arch
Fast enemies, shadow doppelgängers, teleporting enemies, laser nets and double damage enemies
And combination of these will ruin Guan Yu
true pilot
Not necessarily
turbid arch
In many a case it is true.
true pilot
fireworks special hits super hard, and the dash attack has decent range. You need to be defensive against those enemies and prioritize not getting hit over clearing fast.
Granted, that can backfire if you're running TD
turbid arch
In my defense, it needs to be said that my brain right now is (regrettably) hardwired to way too high heat.
In my head canon, there are enemies with more HP, 60% more enemies with blue shields
everywhere
Which immediatly makes the special far less potent because of blue shields
true pilot
Fair enough.
turbid arch
But again, as you said
That you could play around with by positioning smartly and playing defensively
and that is where BP comes in.
true pilot
the one downside of talking balance in the context of Hades is that everyone's difficulty settings are different.
turbid arch
Faster enemies, shadow doppelgängers and teleporting ruin any attempt to play defensively.
It is hilarious.
The more I think and contemplate about Benefits Package
the more horrifying it becomes.
I should just disable it forever.
Never to return.
cunning urchin
I think Excalibur is probably one of the best weapons for cast builds. Like actually better than some cast-focused aspects.
turbid arch
Why's that
cunning urchin
Simply because of all the safety you get right out of the gate.
turbid arch
You know what?
That's a decent argument.-
I had a run where I got Iced whine on excalibur once.
Basicly, putting that Iced Wine on my Excalibur Shininess made it the ultimate safezone.
true pilot
It's the exact same argument I have for why Achilles is the worst cast weapon. (and worst weapon in the game overall)
turbid arch
Two layers of damage mitigation from my special and high tolerance
enemies in the fog without armor would get stunned constantly
slowed by the iced wine
The perfect combination of high tankiness and Crowd Control.
And then you start attacking enemies.
wintry plume
ehy uh, remember when i said here i didn't know how to beat the hydra? I did it! Only thanks to luck, Artemis'special and especially flurry jab
turbid arch
Nice.
wintry plume
now onto another 300 runs to understand how to beat him even without luck aahaah
dull dust
do lucky tooth and stubborn defiance stack? if that makes sense
true pilot
they do.
turbid arch
If you can beat him with that, you will beat Lernie with everything in the future.
dull dust
two lives? pog
mighty ermine
the tooth does not replenish like SB, though
dull dust
right, right
mighty ermine
but yeah
true pilot
stubborn triggers first, you get a second try with the tooth, but if that triggers it doesn't grow back.
wintry plume
yeah i used lucky tooth and two DD, i still have skelly for Elysium
Soul Catchers are so cute... annoying, but beautiful...
cunning urchin
I'm also having a hard time finding any argument for anything other than Heartbreak Flourish on Excalibur for your Special. Best damage right out of the gate, more damage reduction in your aura AOE, debuff for Privileged if you use that.
turbid arch
I'd really want empty inside on top of it for the extra duration
naive tusk
You know.... I can just picture Smuggly Hydra doing that face at Symbo 
cunning urchin
Yeah for sure. But even without that, the other Special boons do less damage or only apply one stack of their debuff anyway.
And you're not going around spamming your Special with Excalibur, probably. Too much startup.
mighty ermine
@cunning urchin decided to do a quick malphon 32 without any athena! didn't get extra dashes from hermes either https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/654076105321480226/716392202980425798/20200530154523_1.jpg
the danger in elysium was palpable
cunning urchin
How was Ashodel?
mighty ermine
pulling, teleporting, speedy flame kittens across a couple rooms
asphodel was surprisingly tame aside from the barge, where i did take around 4 or 5 bombs or so
cunning urchin
Any Speeder Inferno-Bombers?
And why did you do that. Now I can't post my feedback that Malphon relies too much on Divine Dash when focusing on attack/special and to please buff.
mighty ermine
hmm i don't recall offhand, could look back at the recording to see though
cunning urchin
Now I gotta git gud instead.
mighty ermine
lol
cunning urchin
wintry plume
aaan asterius absolutely clobbered me
cunning urchin
RIP.
raw violet
diving dash is powerful for all melee weapons
it just widens your margin for error so much
turbid arch
Divine Dash is one of the best boons in the game in general overall.
If I were to make a top 5 List for boons in the game, Divine Dash would definitively be there.
raw violet
i think increasing the window of i-frames on the base dash would make more people feel like divine wasn't so mandatory
turbid arch
Either that or add a third dash to the mirror.
raw violet
i guess you could argue the other direction too
turbid arch
I feel like if the devs want to make one change to make the base game easier
one more dash for everyone would be the easiest way to implement it.
naive tusk
Throws Eris' apple in Which Dash boon would be the most useless?
true pilot
... But my Ruthless...?
raw violet
but i doubt anyone would be particularly happy with a diving dash nerf
true pilot
Why do you extra dash people would get a shiny and I wouldn't? :P
turbid arch
Can be strong with investment, but without, it disappoints.
raw violet
i'd put the dio or aphro dash in there
turbid arch
Dio Dash is one of the better dashes in the game.
true pilot
Aphro is also good.
raw violet
aphro only really because its hitbox is so small it really feels inconsistent
turbid arch
Great damage, good AOE damage potencial, free debuff, opens up a lot of options from his boon pool.
cunning urchin
Regular dash invincibility is fine. It's dash-strike that needs some invincibility to not make Divine Dash feel so much like a requirement on Malphon.
true pilot
Weak is the best set-and-forget status.
turbid arch
Aphrodites dash I loved back when it dealt damage twice on start and finish.
Now that it doesn't, it is frankly underwhelming
even considering that it applies a debuff, a good debuff at that.
It is not even good for set and forget
raw violet
weak is a great status, i'm not arguing that
turbid arch
That is some grade A garbage indeed. No idea why the devs took that out.
mighty ermine
@cunning urchin i feel like you'd appreciate this room 🐱 💥 https://streamable.com/0zvh4b
raw violet
poseidon is situationally either really good or really bad
main osprey
meow
cunning urchin
lol
raw violet
poseidon is like anti malphon
turbid arch
Anti Sword too.
mighty ermine
shoutout to the one that teleported its pull aura directly on top of me
main osprey
is that what that purple ring is?
dry ember
yup
main osprey
lol
raw violet
i had a similar malphon run
main osprey
good to know
raw violet
2x rooms
dry ember
they are puller
turbid arch
I call it "Gravity Well"
raw violet
rip 2x DDs
turbid arch
Gravity Wells also become super lethal if you only have one dash
making the ruthless dash a super weird choice to go for ever
which is hilarious because it just got introduced in this patch too.
dry ember
don't be blinded by that 50% damage increase folks
cunning urchin
Ruthless + Epic Greatest Reflex is great. Anything else is just worse than starting with 2 dashes.
turbid arch
Agreed.
mighty ermine
i think ruthless is fine at around 20 and below heat. above that though, yeah, too inconsistent with relying on hermes to survive
cunning urchin
Yeah. Especially when you add in -1 or -2 boon choices.
mighty ermine
for sure, recipe for disappointment
turbid arch
I actually had ruthless for my 46 heat victory if memory serves.
mighty ermine
can you please stop claiming that after you pretended to be degrand, man
turbid arch
I had all the options active that make enemies more tanky, so I needed to squeeze in every bit of damage I realisticly could.
mighty ermine
it's getting tiring
dry ember
Pardon my skepticism but a screenshot from the Admin Chamber would convince me for the 46 heat run. That's all it takes.
true pilot
I feel attacked. I only run Ruthless.
mighty ermine
even then, it would be very easy to manipulate a screen as static as that one. the victory screen is at least more dynamic
true pilot
Granted, my highest heat win was 32 Chaos Shield, but hey.
dry ember
at this point i'm settled for anything at all lmao
mighty ermine
don't encourage it fox!
dry ember
that's like the bare minimum
well then a short clip
of the admin chamber
that shuffle between the prior and after run
hard to fake that
mighty ermine
@true pilot ruthless rules! once you get those extra hermes dashes it's smooth sailing. but then i kind of fear not getting them in high heat
true pilot
I hardly ever pick extra dashes.
mighty ermine
i mean, with shield, sure
with other weapons, that's probably not reliable
for 32 i mean
true pilot
Maybe I should get my streaming rig up and running...
dry ember
i'll watch you
true pilot
'cause like, I can't exactly go claim I did it offscreen.
dry ember
:3
true pilot
but yeah, I have not beaten 32 with other weapons yet.
true pilot
like, take Middle Management stomper
the dash cooldown is just enough to dash out and then back in for the shockwave.
turbid arch
turbid arch
Nope.
turbid arch
mighty ermine
good enough for me for now, honestly
dry ember
i'll bite
mighty ermine
i'd rather not drag it on regardless of the legitimacy
turbid arch
Don't think there are other spots in the game where you could see it.
No, wait, at the end of a run, it would show the 46 again as well.
dry ember
Seems good enough for me.
Thing is you didn't post anything until now
So the skepticism is justified
turbid arch
Because I have nothing to prove unless people decide to be annoying about it.
turbid arch
People lie about stuff everywhere.
That is just part of nature, life is tenacious.
I can respect a good lie if there is rhythm and logic to it.
mighty ermine
that's really not an apt use of the word tenacious, but, okay
dry ember
Point still stands, people lie
turbid arch
Yeah, but why ask for prove about everything anyone ever tells you?
mighty ermine
I can respect a good lie if there is rhythm and logic to it.
dry ember
do you believe me?
mighty ermine
that's certainly a weird thing to say
turbid arch
I used to have a working colleague. I knew him well enough to understand that pretty much 85% of evcerything he told me being a lie. That never stoped me from listening to him because everything he told me was either hilarious or insightful.
Every good story is a beautiful spun lie.
And there is some meaning, sometimes even a lesson to every story.
mighty ermine
this anecdote is getting very strange, honestly
turbid arch
Of course it is.
dry ember
Ok I'm done
turbid arch
Life is strange
dry ember
Bottom line
turbid arch
Hello Done. I am Icebox.
mighty ermine
pfff come on
dry ember
I believe your 46 heat run for now. I wish you could have posted screenshots earlier to clear any skepticism. But late is better than never
I'll move on to another topic
turbid arch
Logging into the game just now felt weird.
Haven't played it for a hot week. Already felt like I have forgotten everything.
Playing Hades really is like playing the Piano.
One day of missed practise and you eradicated 3 days of practise.
surreal hound
I unlocked the fourth aspect on the spear and stygian blade. How do I unlock the others ?
hint ?
tepid ridge
The others aren’t in the game yet
turbid arch
Wait for underworld renovations to complete.
surreal hound
oh ok thx
tepid ridge
June’s Blood Price update is expected to bring more.
surreal hound
yeah i did read that from the main menu
am excited for that
do you ever escape to the surface? is that a dlc thing or, my imagination pictures fighting demeter next and maybe replacing demeter boons with hades boons, going through each gods realm /rant end
neon fiber
Yeah it’s you
main osprey
...I just got offered an Epic Atrophic Favor. -47 max health for 3 encounters. I have 50 max health. Should I go for it?
neon fiber
Thus far you die after the current final boss and get thrown back into the house because there’s literally no more content
@main osprey dew it
tepid ridge
The current final boss is ||on the surface|| and not expected to change. The full ending will mark the 1.0 release
surreal hound
such a good game 😦
main osprey
wish me luck
surreal hound
lol 3 hp
neon fiber
I believe in you
tepid ridge
That is hilarious
neon fiber
At least you have a ranged weapon
surreal hound
its as if every level is erebus
neon fiber
If you don’t get careless you might be able to do it
surreal hound
hermes guide your path
main osprey
got through one room, lost a DD though, mistimed a dash
neon fiber
oof
turbid arch
@tepid ridge Is "Blood Price" the official name?
main osprey
DID IT
turbid arch
If so, got a source on that for me?
main osprey
I SURVIVED
neon fiber
WOO
neon fiber
Also yeah, the official title of the update is blood price
tepid ridge
It’s in announcements, they even have a nice lil title card for it
turbid arch
I gotta say:
I like that Charon is finally getting his model update
but seeing him being the poster boy for the update kinda makes me think that this update will not complete the story
neon fiber
Yeah
And his portrait looks absolutely baller
turbid arch
Obviously.
In my headcanon, Charon is actually the gunslinger from Enter The Dungeon.
main osprey
:D
turbid arch
Someone needs to write an elaborate fanfiction how Zagreus ends up superbroke at the conclusion of this game and sells off his Adamant Rail to Charon in order to get out of debt
neon fiber
isn’t the lich basically a very human gunslinger than got cursed though
turbid arch
which leads to Charon to giving the Adamant Rail to humans (for a hefty price of course) which leads to the eventual development of guns and firearms
Maybe it is the other way around.
He was a god of the underworld that just figured out
that guns are fun.
neon fiber
||you can even play as his unliched self to prevent the gungeon from ever happening||
turbid arch
A disguise.
neon fiber
||And shoot the future instead of the past or something||
turbid arch
Charon shooting Chronos? Someone write a piece of fanfiction on THAT!
main osprey
don't spoil EtG
neon fiber
Real talk Charon’s outfit looks pretty cool
He even has a similar collar thing to hypnos’
I wonder it that thing’s basically the equivalent of cthonic men’s fashion
turbid arch
If you think about it
There is a lot of mantles and cloaks in the underworld.
Hades has one when he waits for you.
main osprey
also, I'm about to go into the Tartarus boss fight with 4 Epic boons from Athena
turbid arch
Hypnos wears one, so do Achilles and Patroclus.
Skelly is naked, obviously, but then there are Thanatos and the Wretched Broker
I am not sure if Orpheus wears something along those lines.
Theseus and the Bull don't, but they are going to battle and animating that would have probably just been a bit weird.
Anyways, boys and girls. I will leave now. It's past midnight over here.
Have a good night. Or day or morning or whatever time it is wherever you guys are right now.
Timezones are weird.
main osprey
enjoy
neon fiber
Gnight
narrow halo
Gg
cunning urchin
@umbral lagoon feedback posts should be one feedback at a time, so you should split that post into two messages that people can vote on individually.
umbral lagoon
Oh yeah, I forgot.
cunning urchin
To be honest, I completely ignore troves at 32+ heat. And ignore them 99% of the time at 20 and below when running TD2.
But that other 1% of the time they're good for healing.
But on 32+ they basically don't exist for me lol.
Once in a while I'll do a chill low heat run where I pick up every trove, though.
And they used to help me a lot on my early runs when I needed a lot more healing etc.
dry ember
4 out 5 room in Tartarus is filled with bruisers
2 oulf which is speedy bruiser numbskulls
Game why you hate me
Now I'm summiting a bug in Elysium
Where Zag is stuck in a pond
Zzz
cunning urchin
On 32+ heat, I want to fight as little as possible for as much value as possible. So no, Darkness troves don't exist for me, either.
raw violet
darkness troves are sometimes worth on high heat if you take dark regeneration AND if you have decent damage
true pilot
Fun times doing stupid things https://imgur.com/uKI49a5
narrow halo
Isn’t 32 to much
raw violet
it's always a small gamble but sometimes you need the healing
in tartarus and asphodel, you have enough leeway for time pending on your luck with boons
floral maple
just had a run with chaos aspect, thunder flourish, dread flight, and explosive return
with divine strike and divine dash as the cherry on top
cunning urchin
I have Bouldy, so I wouldn't gamble on a trove.
raw violet
yeah, it depends on what companion you wanna run too
it's all dependent on how confident you're feeling in the run most of the time ultimately
my last bow run, i took a trove in elysium
that was not a confidence thing, that was because i thought it was a dead run
cunning urchin
I honestly didn't even know Darkness troves were worth a try at all on 32+. I tried one HP trove one time and lost 1 DD for 0 healing lol. So I've just completely ignored all troves since.
mighty ermine
@raw violet i'm laughing, you were 100% right ||http://puu.sh/FQOk7/c6f7785cc3.jpg||
right after purchasing the 3000 gems one for west
raw violet
just things for me to look forward to, lol
cunning urchin
Spoilers.
umbral lagoon
I main that HP-regen darkness ability in the mirror, but yeah overall it's useless.
It's great for farming tho.
Gems are balanced.
Darkness is soooooo broken. I can heal up 100% if I have any darkness-boosting boon from Pos or Chaos. But I don't think they will nerf the darkness-regen since there's already Heat that does that, which is convenient.
HP is completely broken as well, though in the other direction. Either you sacrifice your health to kill faster, or you kill slower and get less health. Either way, it's a bad time, esp. in Asphodel.
cunning urchin
HP troves work when your enemies don't hit +60~100% harder, aren't +40% faster, and have 1~2 BP perks on top of that.
umbral lagoon
Yeah, I hate BP.
I main BP1.
BP2 pisses me off.
So badly.
I can't even describe my anger.
FO2 main ofc, but if it was just that it's okay since it makes you play faster too.
Nice observation about HL though.
Another reason to buff HP trove.
cunning urchin
I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority, but I prefer BP2 over EM3 lol. EM3 does not give me a good time at all.
umbral lagoon
But I can understand it's contextual for heat.
cunning urchin
Not on 32 heat, anyway.
cunning urchin
Extreme Measures.
cunning urchin
Yes.
umbral lagoon
huh ok lol
cunning urchin
EM3 is Theseus and Asterius with their shiny golden armor.
umbral lagoon
I'm not sure how I feel about EM3 yet.
cunning urchin
Well, it was a spoiler for me. It's already too late.
umbral lagoon
I beat it on my shield run but for the other weapons it probably sucks
mighty ermine
and now i've imagined that being sung in dusa's little voice
never thought this would happen
cunning urchin
lolol
Well for me, my comments about heat etc. are generally in the context of Malphon.
Since that's the weapon I use like 90% of the time.
mighty ermine
oof
cunning urchin
BP2 in Elysium with TD2 is very consistently doable for me on 32. EM3 with TD2 is often not.
I feel like their HP doesn't go down at all with EM3 lol.
Like, it's just really slow. Reminds me of Bruiser Snakestones. (Bruiser Snakestons are still worse.)
umbral lagoon
Elysium really should be slightly easier in all aspects.
Asterius as a mini-boss is always kind of annoying.
I thought I'd get used to dodging him but sometimes the AI likes to delay their attacks until you attack.
cunning urchin
Really? I like that fight.
Oh.
I don't dodge. I just deflect everything he does lol.
umbral lagoon
What I mean by "kind of annoying" is because I can't cheese him.
Or I can't control when I can cheese.
Sigh.
cunning urchin
He's pretty free with Deflect.
raw violet
by like 1 chamber
umbral lagoon
That's what I implied as well.
cunning urchin
Well, not with EM3. That makes it a lot harder. But EM2 Asterius is free with deflect.
umbral lagoon
Chariots with speed boost is really
OP.
Give them teleportation or clones
and you WILL lose health.
cunning urchin
I don't mind the chariots, either, really.
umbral lagoon
If you break their armor with Malphon then just dash-deflect-attack
but you need to be somewhat lucky and not make a "mistake"
and I put "mistake" in quotes cause really it's just dealing with 20 of them at the same time
You'd have to have the timing and predictions of a computer
for it to be considered making a mistake.
And not just straight up bad positioning RNG.
Also, one more thing that I can't put as feedback because I think I might be hallucinating.
You know when the animation kind of freezes when you perform a Critical hit?
It makes getting hard hits satisfying.
@cunning urchin Do projectiles still move while that animation freezes for you?
Like, at the same velocity regardless of you being in slow motion from the animation freeze.
Maybe I'm just reading the graphics incorrectly because there's that freeze.
cunning urchin
Do you mean the regular hitstop from Malphon's attacks, or an actual screen freeze when doing critical hits sometimes?
umbral lagoon
What do you mean by a regular hitstop?
Oh, no definitely not.
I hardly ever finish my Malphon combos.
It's definitely when it crits.
Cause there's big numbers with it, and the camera/screen shakes.
It might be the hitstops though - confounding variables.
I'm not 100% sure.
I don't think so though, just because I really don't finish combos. I'm a Doom-curse spreader.
cunning urchin
Malphon has "hitstop" whenever you hit an enemy with an attack or special. That is, the animation stops for a very short moment. So hitting thin air is faster than hitting an enemy. Not sure if other melee weapons have that, but it's very noticeable with Malphon due to the fast attack speed. I don't know if critical hits have more hitstop than regular hits, but I don't think they do.
umbral lagoon
Huh. Didn't know that.
Okay, then yes, it is the hitstop.
I do think crits have more hitstop. Just from playing Malphon so long, though you've definitely played it longer.
It's pretty obvious there's a difference.
The Crit hitstop is like 2 or 3 times slower.
That's how apparent it is for me.
I'm not even sure if it's crit, or just hard hits.
But something's going on...
cunning urchin
Could be performance, too. I wouldn't rule it out either way.
umbral lagoon
Very true. My PC is a potato.
When graphics get intense, it just lags.
But I feel like that doesn't change the projectiles still moving at normal pace.
I can't do anything while it comes at me.
So I guess the point is that supposed to happen?
I even feel like enemies slow down when you hit hard.
I guess I was wrong.
cunning urchin
Yeah, I'm very sure it only affects Zagreus and the enemy that is hit. I'm pretty sure I've noticed some minor slowdown of armored enemies, which can't be hitstun.
I'm only familiar with hitstop because of fighting games. So I noticed that right away with Malphon.
umbral lagoon
Right, their stagger/hitstun should be proprotional to the hitstop.
Yeah, I had no idea about this until now.
cunning urchin
Hitstop is different from hitstun.
umbral lagoon
A game I played previously that looked really similar to this game slowed down the entire animation to emphasize crits.
It didn't just slow down the player and victim.
Sure, hitstop is specific to the animation.
I get it.
I was just mentioning the slowdown.
Whichever that is.
cunning urchin
Hitstop (or "hit freeze" sometimes) freezes the attacker and the target in place for a short time to make the hit more noticeable. Hitstun happens afterwards when the target goes through a "hurt" animation basically and can't act for a short moment.
umbral lagoon
Yeah, then hitstun is not relevant here, since you can still move while the target is stunned.
How confident would you be to put feedback about decreasing the delay from hitstop for the Malphon?
Actually, that doesn't seem reasonable.
cunning urchin
Come to think of it, Excalibur definitely had that too when I used it in my last two runs.
umbral lagoon
I'm not sure how I would fix this in a fair way.
Nevermind, decreasing the hitstop won't increase attack speed.
It's just really dumb how you just have to stay there and can't dash away.
Even when you have dashes.
cunning urchin
I think the hitstop is fine, Malphon is the fastest-hitting weapon that can stagger/hitstun opponents. Rail might be faster (I actually don't know for sure) but doesn't hitstun.
mighty ermine
the final hit in excalibur's basic attack combo does have hitstop, which actually applies to the entire room for when it connects
umbral lagoon
My interpretation of this is similar to hitstop in Smash.
Everything should freeze.
mighty ermine
this can be seen with particle effects like blood or poison pools slowing for that moment visibly
umbral lagoon
I felt that projectiles don't slow down.
Like those wave-makers in Asphodel.
They don't freeze.
(Again, might be hallucinating.)
mighty ermine
i mean, i'm watching footage of one of my excalibur runs where everything in the room does visibly slow for the hitstop
not just zagreus and the target(s)
cunning urchin
Can you watch a 1st or 2nd hit in the combo frame by frame? Maybe it happens for the entire room, too, but it's shorter and less noticeable.
mighty ermine
yeah i'll try to find a clear example somewhere
umbral lagoon
Okay, you are right. The waves do slow down.
Well, why do I see 2 waves?
It's almost like stutter.
mighty ermine
depending on how many enemies are struck, it seems it may be shorter or longer hitstop
so if you are hitting say, one enemy, the slowdown period is shorter and can feel like it's more dangerous following the attack
while if you get a meaty hit on two or three, it's more significant
it doesn't seem like excalibur's early combo attacks have hitstop, though. if they do, it's extremely slight
umbral lagoon
ugh
I think it's just a combination of those waves being very fast as well as my graphics rendering really badly to make it look like they aren't slowing down.
mighty ermine
now i'm almost going down a rabbit hole of seeing if elements are inconsistently affected by the hitstop, some more or some less. it's very hard to tell sometimes
umbral lagoon
I swear the only thing I dislike about the game is how clunky the movement is.
mighty ermine
i.e. theseus' call having the same animation speed during the final excalibur swing despite hitstop
umbral lagoon
So many things that just make you not move whatsoever.
raw violet
100% the reason i switched off mnk
entirely not worth the aim control for bow and rail special
mighty ermine
movement feels generally smooth to me i'd say, with gamepad, aside from specific instances of level geometry being a bit weird
cunning urchin
MNK = Monk = Malphon user. 
cunning urchin
I've played too much FFXI. That or not enough FFXI.
umbral lagoon
Updoot my feedback about the bad geometry at the boundaries of maps
raw violet
mouse and keyboard
raw violet
i had the same movement issues
umbral lagoon
it's mainly just because the joystick can only move so fast
raw violet
and then switched to gamepad and haven't had as much
umbral lagoon
and your dash inputs are instantaneous
and with all the hitstops making the animation jagged
it's hard to time things
i guess?
All I know is the gameplay doesn't feel as smooth as Smash, which also has hitstops.
proven robin
(I saw "hitstop", I had to put a video about it into #off-topic-discussion )
umbral lagoon
I'm honestly not confident about writing it cause I know nothing about this stuff
cunning urchin
I've still absolutely no idea what that feedback is about. I've never noticed anything odd when moving along the edges of the map.
raw violet
i think if there are things that are frustrating you, it's worth bringing up cause you may not be the only one
umbral lagoon
Pedestals at the entrance of Elysium maps, near the gates.
There's a rectangular carve-out that you can easily accidentally attempt to dash into nothing.
Same thing with one map in Tartarus, with a ton of pedestals near the entrance.
dry ember
how are we doing folks?
mighty ermine
accounting for hitstop in your timing, spacing and playstyle could also just be intentional too; it isn't uncommon in deliberate animation-based action games
umbral lagoon
It's just those two maps though, imo.
raw violet
i'm certain there are times where i'm dashing and i hit some geometry and get stuck
but i've never thought much about them
dry ember
as for me I continue my lose streak at Hades on 32
raw violet
i'm doing on an off 32 attempts on stygian
umbral lagoon
Yeah, some obstacles in Elysium can't be dashed through if you point in the wrong angle.
Cause trigonometry.
dry ember
oh with the sword I can't get pass asphodel lmao
cunning urchin
Why are you still trying 32? I've moved on to 33 long ago.
raw violet
cause some of us like to use multiple weapons
dry ember
cause you are a better player than I am
dry ember
what
mighty ermine
i tried some 40+ earlier and only made it to mid-elysium lol. heat that high honestly mostly feels like getting constantly pelted with rocks
dry ember
just do it with shield 5head
mighty ermine
smh my head
cunning urchin
I said make a cast build with Excalibur if you want to clear with the sword.
dry ember
is this a joke or do you mean Poseidon?
cunning urchin
I'm not joking, and I do mean Excalibur.
dry ember
do enlighten me how is that good?
umbral lagoon
oof so hunting blades without the hunting is still annoying
mighty ermine
blade blades
cunning urchin
+50 HP, 40% damage reduction, disables traps, slows down enemy projectiles, and your cast does all the work for you.
umbral lagoon
yeah it's pretty OP
raw violet
i feel like i'm pretty bad with sword so it's fun to try and learn it
umbral lagoon
dash with excalibur is so awful lol
dry ember
yeah I mean Nemesis
mighty ermine
it really isn't great, and yet, still had to use it a lot of the time for 32 anyway
mostly because of FO2
but still
it's necessary sometimes
umbral lagoon
yeah
it's just the delay after the attack
grossss
you just stand there and pose for like half a second
flexing on your enemies that you just dash attacked
i think also a little delay before too
excalibur is just slow in general
cunning urchin
It clears pretty damn fast, though.
dry ember
excalibur?
cunning urchin
Yes.
dry ember
I have like the opposite experience
dry ember
for final combo
umbral lagoon
pretty sure you have super armor
dry ember
do you? I swear I got staggered out of the combo with excalibur
maybe im wrong
since you seem so sure
cunning urchin
I often just do 2 hits from the combo. The 3rd is pretty risky and leaves you pretty open, but I definitely still use it. But no need to take damage unnecessarily.
umbral lagoon
Yeah, I'm pretty sure.
dry ember
ok then i'll believe you
umbral lagoon
@cunning urchin excalibur main pls confirm i'm not hallucinating
I click X three times and I get three hits
doesn't matter if i'm geting pelted by wizards
cunning urchin
I haven't used Excalibur that much myself lol. I think some attacks can interrupt it, but most do not.
mighty ermine
excalibur main
umbral lagoon
there you go
dry ember
i'm something of a Lucina main mainself
umbral lagoon
click X 3 times and hope you don't get out-armored
wipe out everyone in the half the screen in front of you with an angular radius of like 190 degrees
profit
literally can't miss
cunning urchin
It's more like 270 degrees.
umbral lagoon
kekw
dry ember
working as intended
umbral lagoon
I just didn't know the exact angle.
dry ember
nothing to see here
mighty ermine
i mean, as cartoonish as it sounds, if the sword is swinging that wide in that direction with an enemy behind Zagreus and also facing him, it can feasibly hit their back
and does
mighty ermine
is it silly? yes, absolutely
umbral lagoon
So good luck pulling that off, iirc.
cunning urchin
If they're 1 pixel behind a pillar or wall with any part of their body, you'll miss them.
lol
mighty ermine
hades is a master architect
cunning urchin
I just start up the Special at a distance and dash at the last moment for the slam. Can't really be interrupted that way.
dry ember
yeah that's how you do it
mighty ermine
it's also not hard to just get used to timing it
you just use it earlier than normal sword special
mighty ermine
i've done it on FO2 tho
dry ember
doable on FO2
mighty ermine
very doable
cunning urchin
Heartbreak Flourish is easily BiS for Special boons on Excalibur.
dry ember
I cleared 16 heat with Excalibur and FO2
umbral lagoon
if not, then no.
mighty ermine
i mean, that's not hard, to not get destroyed by 10 enemies
dry ember
just don't get hit
dry ember
the solution to everything Hades
cunning urchin
Blizzard Shot or Ice Wine or whatever cast build you want will solve all the problems of Excalibur's attack speed lol.
While getting all the benefits from the aura and the 50 HP.
"Problems", honestly.
dry ember
how to play Excalibur
use cast build
don't use Excalibur
????
profit
dry ember
i'm kidding, dont @ me
cunning urchin
But yeah, that's a very viable strategy lol.
Just using it for the all the benefits while ignoring its attack mostly once you've got your cast build going.
umbral lagoon
That's actually great cause you are super weak in Tartarus usually if cast build
so you do use it, a lot.
dry ember
do I eat dinner or get wrecked again?
cunning urchin
Why not both?
cunning urchin
I just realized.
I should get up in about 1~2 hours.
So I should probably go to bed lol.
dry ember
you should go to bed. can't miss church tomorrow you heathen
cunning urchin
I don't go to church.
dry ember
heathen
cunning urchin
I only pray at the Temple of Aphrodite.
mighty ermine
gnight
cunning urchin
I'm not even all that tired. I think that energy drink earlier had way too much caffeine or something lol.
dry ember
good night
cunning urchin
Good night, Fox and . . . other Fox.
runic jewel
Is there some kind of trick to getting chaos fish to spawn? I feel like I have yet to fish out there 😦
mighty ermine
one trick, which is getting poseidon's huge catch legendary to increase your chances
otherwise, just entirely luck
brittle vale
isn't it only a 2% spawn rate without poseidon's boon?
mighty ermine
i think so, yeah
in addition to the fish chamber cooldown period
so that you can't get fishing points to spawn close to each other
brittle vale
chaos is rude when it comes to fishing... sorry @runic jewel I too love fishing. but look into poseidon's huge catch legendary. I got that in a run earlier and it was the best day ever
mighty ermine
it will definitely be addressed and changed by 1.0, if not the Blood Price update depending on how much optimization/port prep work has been filling dev time
there's just been so much feedback about how ridiculously rare chaos fishing spots are
raw violet
it is done https://i.imgur.com/0QByeLE.png
raw violet
sword was pretty tough
proven robin
Hilariously, despite having trouble with the sword as well, that was my first clear.
raw violet
that run probably taught me more about enemy patterns than any otherr weapon though
mighty ermine
oh nice syd
i typically see a lot of newer players complain about sword, so it's cool to see that you cleared first with it
raw violet
those runs, i should say, i definitely had a few attempts
runic jewel
@brittle vale Haven't gotten one of those since the patch first dropped
sudden dagger
Wow, I got a little closer this time! And for the first time, I can imagine actually beating the final boss!
proven robin
I mean, I do have trouble with it, but to me that just means it's not my style.
mighty ermine
how far did you get? you'll definitely get there
sudden dagger
I got to ||Hades's second form|| and using the shield, I could actually start predicting his pattern. I just got caught out a few too many times
Fixed lol
mighty ermine
oh the final boss' identity is okay to say in the gameplay channel
just not the discussion channel
sudden dagger
Ok
It was more the spoiler that ||he has more than one form|| but I'm sure most people already know that. I suspected it but I just found out for sure
mighty ermine
oh i see, fair
sudden dagger
I think I will even invest blood into the chaos shield 2nd rank, since I was actually holding my own against Hades
brittle vale
yeah that spoiler caught me off guard when I first played
raw violet
i think investing in chaos shield early is a good idea
mighty ermine
yeah, it provides a safer way to learn enemy patterns in general
but you definitely don't want to start relying on it
dry ember
@raw violet grats mate
raw violet
tyty
dry ember
the 32 column looks so satisfying
sudden dagger
@raw violet did you clear with all weapons?
dry ember
yeah duh
mighty ermine
now they all have to be 36
raw violet
haha
dry ember
my head
mighty ermine
lol
raw violet
i need to get my clear times down
mighty ermine
cleared 57 no problem then reverted my save because i didn't like the number
raw violet
that 20 is my current blemish
mighty ermine
if you want a quick way to get a better time with shield i'd definitely recommend thunder flourish with accompanying zeus tier 2s
and splitting bolt if you can manage
raw violet
yeah
mighty ermine
i think that was my setup for the low 11
raw violet
i think that was my fastest run setup
but as i was working up in heat, i could never get the boons to line up
dry ember
chaos shield with demeter is also really
raw violet
also shield was the first weapon i went 1-20 for a clear to farm blood
dry ember
somehow the game keeps giving me demeter when im on shield
raw violet
so maybe i just play better now
dry ember
and it's p tight
raw violet
i like demeter attack/zeus special
surreal hound
which shield aspect for zeus? i liked the default one
raw violet
cold fusion is really nice
mighty ermine
that was my exact setup lol
dry ember
chaos is the current 'best'
mighty ermine
even had cold fusion
dry ember
wait zeus on zeus
surreal hound
aspect of zeus i didnt like, it had lower attack rate than I was expecting
mighty ermine
aspect of zeus
surreal hound
nvm, chaos shield
dry ember
yeah but then the question doesnt make sense
surreal hound
lol
raw violet
aspect of chaos FOR zeus
dry ember
lol k got it
English hard
I heard Thunder Flourish on Zeus Aspect is decent
I had only 1 run with it but it works p well
people here seem to stand by it oo
mighty ermine
double strike is such an underrated tier 2 boon
raw violet
double strike is great, i'm just always trying to get jolted first
mighty ermine
it's a monstrous damage increase with a zeus heavy build
raw violet
zeus i think is probably one of the better designed boon trees
it's really noticable when you're able to get tier 2 and 3 boons
mighty ermine
i find high voltage pretty underwhelming, especially compared to how good the ares equivalent is for blade rifts
since the aoe of bolts is pretty generous to begin with
brittle vale
does armor count on final boss?
naive tusk
No.
brittle vale
aww shucks
naive tusk
Armor is only accounted for when the enemy has a yellow HP bar.
brittle vale
I had a chance to get artemis' hide breaker boon
that's why I was asking
ohhhhh thanks dude!
untold vortex
no boss has armour iirc
naive tusk
Final Boss summons armored foes, if that helps.
brittle vale
oh yeah that true
naive tusk
Aggy, you chose to radiate cuteness around here at this time ❤️
mighty ermine
hide breaker is decent for hydra, since the extra heads do have armor!
untold vortex
oh right, forgot about the heads
brittle vale
I'll let you know if I manage to beat || dad ||
untold vortex
good luck 
restive solar
I really don't know why people don't think Demeter dash is great
it's not obvious, but the hitbox on it is absolutely enormous
and it lingers behind you for a long time
main osprey
I like it. Especially if it's a bit late into the run and I don't need the slower Dem boons
restive solar
where would you place it in comparison to other dashes?
obviously not as good as Athena or Artemis, but otherwise?
restive solar
that's not all that different from me
I don't like zeus at all though
and I'm starting to like demeter over pos
mighty ermine
zeus dash is very underwhelming at base, but double strike and jolted can make it worthwhile
kinda like how base ares dash is not great but can become good with some extra work
restive solar
what's the broken rail daedalus upgrade?
naive tusk
Delta Chamber 
dry ember
Spread Fire
naive tusk
Hi Foxy 
dry ember
Hey there
I'm actually struggling on making Arte boon tree lol
SSG why
just streamline the thing please
untold vortex
Hai Fox 😄
untold vortex
it just how it be sometimes
naive tusk
You gave Aggy a heart but not to me. I'm sad now
And I even gave you pets before...
I'll get over it 
magic dagger
All right guys I'm going to do a 20 heat run and post a brag screenshot, then I'm going to say things about gameplay
why? because it's been more than a day since I've played and I'm suffering from withdrawal
untold vortex
good luck ^_^
magic dagger
anybody else ever have that problem?
dry ember
I've played during work hours (I wfh since the whole pandemic thing)
so you are certainly not alone mate
dry ember
whichever one dark thirst is on?
keen wedge
guys can anyone tell me where can i report a bug?
hardy epoch
You should be able to hit f10 while in game to report a bug
lethal tangle
Just cleared with thhis
honestly the spread shot was so much fun and I dont think I need to explain triple bomb and eris
untold vortex
congrats 
keen wedge
@hardy epoch thank you
hardy epoch
👍
magic dagger
Mewmew special with Ice Win for DPS
Final boss took a ton of damage from deflects, brilliant riposte really got to shine
tepid ridge
I love the new title Ice Win. It’s so catchy ❄️
magic dagger
Shout out to Foxhope for accidently saying Ice Win once
MM power couple with a chaos curse on attack is horrifying
Especially when Meg misses both of them
mighty ermine
"my foolish brother cannot help you now" [proceeds to get destroyed by both of his foolish brothers within the span of a single greater call] https://thumbs.gfycat.com/UntriedTemptingDwarfrabbit-mobile.mp4
dry ember
That's nasty
raw violet
gross
raw violet
ayyy
dry ember
still can't get pass asphodel with sword
lmao
but whatev
i'll just find a way to cheese the sword
raw violet
the lava was my biggest enemy in asphodel
dry ember
and accept that I just suck at it lol
raw violet
could try an artemis cast build
raw violet
lava and bombs
dry ember
spear can be done with a good gy special bui;d
raw violet
don't even need it to be a good build
mighty ermine
yeah my 32 was with guan yu, dash-strike and special focused as usual for me
also congrats on halfway to all 32 weps
dry ember
aight
raw violet
the heroic swift flourish though
dry ember
yea
covert tide
Aside from fists, Stygius is my fave weapon
raw violet
but definitely charged skewer
covert tide
I only play on high heat but it took some getting used to
dry ember
how do you use it on high heat?
covert tide
I... don’t know how to answer that haha, I dash back and forth through enemies a lot so they don’t have a chance to hit me, I try to get good boon combinations for that play style
mighty ermine
i did 32 stygius before i knew the dash-strike spam technique so it was mostly just, normal attack combo except the end thrust because it's slow, special sometimes
covert tide
I’m not a perfect player and fail a lot lol, but practice will make you better
raw violet
i find with the sword, the whole special-dash-dash combo can really leave you open after you've used up your dashes
especially on the enemies that drop a bomb after they die
dry ember
yeah i'm slowly learning that it's not the end all be all
covert tide
For daedalus on stygius I try to get supernova and the dash strike boost
I use the Poseidon aspect
raw violet
so you have to be hyperaware of when projectiles and enemies are attacking and using your dash attack to not only do damage but also reposition
dry ember
i actually got hit by melee enemies more often
since they have armor and all
can't be staggered
raw violet
those are the main lessons i've learned from struggling with sword
covert tide
Yeah against enemies that throw bombs on death I try to save a dash when they’re close to death
raw violet
armored enemies mostly just taught me to be better about staying behind them
covert tide
I like getting deflect on attack
Helps with projectiles, it feels like going around with a baseball bat haha
Dash deflect is great too
covert tide
If you can get doom on attack and deflect on dash and then the Athena ares duo
raw violet
@mighty ermine got my casual sub 20 https://i.imgur.com/WjLZLjw.png
raw violet
so definitely could've shaved some time there
magic dagger
That's pretty tasty
raw violet
can't be upset about 3 fountain rooms though
dry ember
I swear the satyrs in Styx have homing darts
magic dagger
90 plus jolted plus cold fusion😘 👌
mighty ermine
their tracking speed is probably the fastest in the game barring FO2 snakestone miniboss
it's the worst
raw violet
yeah, darts are nasty
magic dagger
rip
@dry ember just have health
dry ember
5head
magic dagger
ez remedy to homing darts
raw violet
I pay attention to the satyr heads to tip me off the dart and it's made it a little easier
also it's always their first move
dry ember
hey Tailesque, did you post a Hades spear video against Hades?
raw violet
also i don't think they have any other moves
dry ember
with like serrated edge druken strike or something?
dry ember
hmm I remember seeing something like that on this server
maybe it was schpoon or whatever their name is
Does Sunken Treasure count for Family Favorite purposes?
mighty ermine
yee
dry ember
even if it's not listed in the boon menu?