h1-builds-and-combat

[tight basin]

Got no clue tho lmao

[proper furnace]

Not the ramp up iirc

[plain river]

Ramp tick is seperate, yeah

The damaging interval gets shorter but not the ramp ticks

[red bloom]

Guys coronacht with Artemis main attack and the the hammer upgrades where you fire 3 shorts and the upgrade where the bounce of enemies is so fun

[shell root]

I'm having issues maxing out my aphrodite and artemis keepsakes, it's just that I don't get how these 2 are supposed to work together, I keep seeing that the heart rend combo is broken on spear, but every time I try a run with these with the heat barely in the 15's, I struggle a lot more than zeus/poseidon and I'd like to max these out now before moving onto another weapon so I don't end up having to do it with a weapon where the combo is less optimal.

Anyone can explain how you do this combo right? I have no doubt I'm a dumbass that's missing the obvious, but I need help here.

(Yes, I struggle with lower heat, I barely scraped a win with merciful end fist on 32 heat, I am not a god gamer)

[frank goblet]

heart rend is really good on bow

[shell root]

Huh, I though it was best on spear, guess I was wrong

[frank goblet]

if you want to play just spear id recommend just leveling them separately and scale aphrodite along side zeus for smair and artemis along side (also zeus) for rod

[shell root]

I'm just finishing the last bounties on spear and then I'm moving onto a new weapon

guess it'll be bow

The Poseidon/Zeus spear combo has done me well so I might just keep it going

it's mainly a good way for me to clear all the rooms in the last area

and that gives me that last boost for the hades fight

although, given static discharge + razor shoal + duo hades is not that hard most runs

[weak zenith]

im not sure good keepsake levels are that impactful

if you use those gods on runs they will level up passively

[shell root]

oh no, I'm just doing that for the steam achievement, not to help me win runs

[weak zenith]

styx is good for leveling up keepsakes

i would just do full runs with the keepsake i want to level up, with full styx clears

[shell root]

yeah, that could also work

[plain river]

Where did you see that it was good on spear btw

this is some really weird advice imo

It only really makes sense on achilles or like a serrated edge build for Hades but even then like achilles usually goes into hunting blades from artemis strike instead of heart rend

[tight basin]

Heart rend is good for nem sword

[grand spruce]

hello id say im pretty new to the game, ive been playing for around 10 days now and i just beat hades for the first time w eris, any aspect + god recommendations that give big numbers?

[plain river]

Are we talking high dps or just one high number

because sometimes people just want one big number even if it lowkey sucks dps-wise

[grand spruce]

dps wise then

[plain river]

Take your pick of
Sword - Nemesis
Spear - Achilles
Shield - Zeus or Hidden Shield
Bow - Hera >= Zag (or hidden)
Fists - Demeter
Rail - Eris but they all have their own niches tbh

nemesis does a lot of crit stuff with artemis/aphro

achilles runs either lightning phalanx between athena and zeus with zeus on strike, or hunting blades between artemis and ares

you can just start with poseidon for tidal dash and then figure it out based on which of the above you find in tartarus tbh

really wants flurry jab though until you hit the cast duo

zeus shield can run pretty much whatever without too much issue just avoid demeter or poseidon for the special and you should have something you can build around well

I could get into it but I want to talk about the other ones rn tbh

[grand spruce]

ive been enjoying nem and eris recently

[plain river]

Eris is one of my favs

well

Rail in general

[grand spruce]

real

[plain river]

flat damage soup works really well for every rail aside from hestia

like lightning strike -> static discharge (which is easily the highest damaging zeus secondary boon), tidal dash, razor shoals and breaking wave from poseidon

You could hit artemis or aphrodite for special and branch from there

[grand spruce]

whats that

[plain river]

because artemis gives support fire to add some more base damage flying around and pressure points / hunter’s mark to amplify everything with crits and crit chains

[plain river]

I’m describing it right now with my messages

[plain river]

While aphrodite offers smouldering air to spam out some high dps minicalls with either zeus or dio call

and some extra global additive with sweet surrender

hermes is pretty straight forward like you want hyper sprint for double movespeed -> rush delivery to gain a bunch more global additive +% based off your bonus movespeed

your main hammer you care about are going to be rocket bomb / cluster bomb/ triple bomb

The rail has a lot of really benefical special hammers and not that much for strikes tbh

[grand spruce]

i never understood rocket bomb eris

how do you get the buff

[plain river]

Rocket bomb makes the special way faster and more high damaging

just shoot it at a wall or while you’re in an enemies face

rail works just as (if not more) effectively at melee range so you can just dash in and special someone up close

to nab the buff

and then rockst bomb -> cluster bomb just makes it a 400 base damage shotgun

since rocket bombs 80 base damage change is applied after the -30% from cluster bomb so it just does full damage

[grand spruce]

also i never understood the dash strike buffs on ranged weaps

like bow and rail

they have dash strikes?

[plain river]

Yes

bow dash strike works like regular bow strike

It just charges 50% faster and deals lower damage but it effectively ends up being the same base damage output if you aren’t perfect shotting (for either) and higher base damage output if you are perfect shotting

but you get greater mobility and so you can defensively react

while rail dash-strikes just immediately fire off a shot

for the same 10 base damage

It’s all about mobility and staying safe while outputting damage faster

[grand spruce]

also can i just ask

i have like 7 titans blood rn

is it more worth it to upgrade the aspects i currently have or unlock every aspect

i only have like nem, complete shield and complete rail

[plain river]

I have a clip here but there’s a lot going on and it’s really hard to see the special usage unless you’re looking specifically for the demeter colours

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/795659377755422742/1485106224876879942/Shackle-Heroes-Rail-1.mov?ex=69c0a873&is=69bf56f3&hm=4d42636d6ac7d67355bddc68872ed994dba053c31f5a4a46a3ebd688426ba3d2&

[plain river]

There are a few aspects that are really solid with 1-2 levels in them, and they do get better with more levels but the main impactful thing is unlocked at level 1

and a few others that scale really well with blood

Like nemesis sword, hera bow and zeus shield all get their basic functionality at level 1

while achilles spear, zag bow, demeter fists, eris rail, hestia rail, all scale really high with levels to get going

eris is kinda good no matter the amount of levels but it scales up well

Hestia on the other hand lowkey sucks at level 1 you’re literally attacking at 1/3 the damage of max

[grand spruce]

is lucifer worth it on rail

[plain river]

I think leveling the aspects you do have will help you get more titans blood so your new aspects are more effective when you switch weapons

That’s like my 2 cents

[plain river]

Luci is really fun but it does take being high level for it to really work well

Oh if I can throw hidden aspects into the mix actually

hidden shield hidden bow both get out swinging with level 1

hidden shield is really effective at base and the levels don’t really scale it like crazy

hidden bow the levels matter a bit more

Luci needs high levels

for its special to pop off

before that I think it’s just the base rails but worse tbh

Maybe save it for when you have more blood to throw around

A lot of the uniqueness for luci comes from the special damage

and iirc the special explosion damage starts at like 20 and makes it’s way up to 100?

I don’t remember what it is at level 1

[grand spruce]

its at 50

[plain river]

So like literally half as effective

Now I’m a bit biased because I know I’ve only really talked about the aspects I really think matter for the discussion of how to use your blood

I’m coming from a speedrunners lense here with a little bit of high heat sprinkled in

[shell root]

I saw it on the leereamsnyder guide

[plain river]

Mmm

Those are all

usable for sure

those are also aspect specific last I checked

[shell root]

yeah, but since it was in the section of the spear I was using, I thought it would work great

but I don't mind just using Poseidon/Zeus, it's working great for me

[plain river]

Artemis really needs to additive from either Hades for an explosive launcher -> charged skewer or Achilles -> Flurry Jab/Serrated Point

to really pop off

[shell root]

of course that's the 2 aspect I haven't levelled up yet on my spear

uggh

[plain river]

That makes it sound like you looked at achilles or Hades and then leveled up zag spear

[shell root]

nah, I just maxed out all the zag aspects and then used the rest of my blood on the hidden aspect

[fading flower]

what are yalls opinions on the optimal mirror layout?

[zenith fractal]

that's not a matter of opinion, this can be (and has been) ultra-weakly solved (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game) for most situations. hades is not a multiplayer game but it's possible to calculate the 1: most consistent choices and 2: the most beneficial, and most detrimental choices for any given gamestate, as well as determine the best, worst, and average-case scenario, which take the role of player 2.

people are obviously welcome to use the other options, but they will run into issues they could avoid with the optimal setup

[meager sedge]

I feel like there's an appreciable number of "it depends on your build" or "it depends on where you usually die a lot" situations but I'd definitely buy that there are a lot of options where the vast majority of the time certain options are just The Best for speedrun times if you're playing at max effectiveness

[zenith fractal]

having a good mirror makes it easier to have good and reliable damage, which makes enemies die faster which makes the game as a whole easier.

often people underestimate how much of a difference a strong build can make

besides, "it depends on your build" is a flawed way of thinking about it. you're basing how good a choice is off of knowledge that you can't have at the time. obviously some builds will favor some mirrors, but often this choice is too unreliable to go for normally. a good mirror does 2 main things:

• have high potential
• let you get your build as consistently as possible

if a mirror-setup only has one of these, you'll either never have a good build because your potential is low, or basically never have a build because the odds of getting the whole thing together are so low

[meager sedge]

"you're basing how good a choice is off of knowledge that you can't have at the time."

I'm more thinking about niche weapon aspect choices like how Gilgamesh interacts with dash stuff or some things may interact with Stygian vs. Abyssal Blood slightly differently, etc.

[zenith fractal]

that's something different. you confused "build" and "aspect"

and potentially "build" and "strategy". strategy is a build-idea, build is how that idea turned out in a given run

[meager sedge]

Linguistic imprecision ^^; I don't usually participate in these discussions super often. Apologies

"build" vs. "strategy" mostly gets at it though

[plain river]

It’s pretty much solved for your goal (speed vs heat) and build (mostly aspect dependent)

There are a fair few options that are just universally used and then the others just come down to the specifics

[zenith fractal]

sometimes having a particular mirror-preference also screws you over in the run. let's take a simple example: using Ruthless Reflex, using as a justification "I'll just get dashes from Hermes":

1. it's theoretically has higher potential than greater reflex, which is good

• you have to get dashes on first hermes, which is unreliable
• having to get hermes dashes from one of the boons means that if you want to see rush delivery too, you are forced to first hope styx hermes appears (which is unreliable), and then hope he offers you the boon you're missing (which is unreliable).
• there is exactly one major holdout to this and that's scratch, who has shown RR can work to some extent, by ignoring these two problems by not looking for extra dashes in the first place. but even so, having seen his grinds, he runs into problems ("checkmate-situations") that could be avoided by having more than one dash

(shoutouts to scratch of course for being a gamer)

[plain river]

Shadow vs Fiery does depend on the weapon and how high of a heat you're at. For speed, most weapons are going to want fiery to hit oneshot breakpoints, after a certain level of heat it doesn't really matter anymore so you can squeeze out a bit more boss dps with shadow.
Greater Reflex > Ruthless Reflex thanks to mobility for defence and offense, while giving you more dash-strikes for more dps. Ruthless is ok for like gilgamesh and some of the shields, since gilga has extra dashes and zeus shields dps is coming from far more than the dashes so you can pull some more benefit but I would still take greater reflex.
Boiling Blood is usually taken over abyssal for everything, damage is damage. I think some high heat gamers might use abyssal? Usually you save more hp by just killing things faster
Infernal vs Stygian does depend on if you're doing a cast build with a castpect. trippy shot wants stygian, most other casts want infernal. If you aren't doing a cast build, infernal offers Lightning Rod for dps, and more burst damage from casts in tartarus, while stygian offers better hermes odds for rush delivery.
Deep Pockets >>> Gold Touch. Obols spent now makes you stronger earlier so you get far more benefit from them, particularly being able to take the midshop in tartarus to potentially add a god to your god pool. (essentially lets you snowball harder)
Thick Skin is better for heat while high confidence is better for speed.
Family Favourites offers more dps for every build that isn't hangover or crush-burst hera. Very simple, no head needed, no inconsistent or weird playstyle changes needed, and it applies to every single hit no matter what, so every hit on every enemy will benefit from it.
Dark Foresight >>> Olympian Favour. The value of 7 extra gold laurel rewards (boons/poms/hearts) can't be overstated.
Pride > Legacy. Stronger boons to work with your duos helps you win better than mid build with your duos.
Persuasion > Authority. Rerolling options is strong

I think you can see when I realised I was running out of characters

I might make two messages later for if I ever wanna copy paste my own words on the matter

[alpine moon]

genuinely how are you supposed to fight w the malphon fists

like my damage output is so high

but i used two death defiances in the minotaur fight

it feels impossible to dodge anything

[weak zenith]

you are just overcommitting

you just have to attack when you are sure you have a window

[alpine moon]

huh

i feel like with the shield and the sword i have a lot of health

but my damage output is very little

[weak zenith]

base fists have pretty high damage compared to the other weapons sure

[zenith fractal]

???

[weak zenith]

?

[zenith fractal]

fists have a few good parts, but having extraordinary damage isn't among them

[weak zenith]

999358269422321774

[zenith fractal]

They're easy to understand and build (just FDS) though

[weak zenith]

i think out of the zag asoects fists are pretty strong

[zenith fractal]

Would beg to differ; it's in many ways a weaker zagrail tbh. Zagrail can get clockets (damage) or delta chamber (iframes), none of which fists have an equivalent for

Zagreus bow can get some nutty damage from attack-hammers

Zagreus shield is a shield

Though I'll grant you zagsword and zagspear have some serious issues

[open moth]

Dash to iframe attacks

Or play less aggressively and outrange entirely with multiple dashes

[weak zenith]

Mono dash supremacy

[open moth]

There's a reason I only thought to address a multidash approach in the second message as opposed to the first...

[meager sedge]

Perhaps ironic with your display name (which I approve of)

[open moth]

I went through a Rama phase recently, sorry.

[gusty halo]

Been mostly playing aspect of Zagreus with Malphon but how’s Demeter?

I’ve been mostly straying away from special builds for most of my weapons

[plain river]

Best of the fist aspects

by a fair margin

You don’t really need to do a special build, you just have a big burst button that recharges every fairly quickly

[gusty halo]

Bet, thanks man

[plain river]

fresh ball knowledge drop

How poms work (btw, this all rounds up to the nearest whole number as far as I can tell)

Every boon gets assigned a initial pom value multiplier of their base common value. The default is 0.4x, some boons get the strong multipler of 0.6x and some get the very strong multiplier of 0.8x their base value. This is why all the +% strikes have initial poms of 40% of their value (aphro starts with 50% and gets +20% from first pom), while tidal dash gets +21 (60% of 35). Then, when getting new poms, the value is multiplied by 0.7x, down to a minimum of 0.1. This is why aphro pom 1 is +20% -> pom 2 being 14%. It diminishes down to a generic minimum value of 0.1, which is why effectively all boons hit linear pom scaling by level 7 at the latest (0.7^6 = 0.11%, and there aren't many boons with enough value to make the difference between 0.11x base pom value at level 7 and 0.10 base pom value for level 8). Some boons have modified minimum values, like all the hangover cores universally having a 0.25x minimum, which causes dio call to bottom out at +4 instead of +2.

[turbid needle]

so what's the best level to stop at

[zenith fractal]

depends on the boon and strategy!

[plain river]

I mean realistically you hit the bottom of diminishing returns at level 7 for most boons

[zenith fractal]

Generally, if you're pomming a boon beyond level 7 or so, you're probably overcommitting though.

[turbid needle]

say I'm playing rail and running zeus strike/poseidon flourish and I need both boons to be strong

[plain river]

also I'm realising now

that the minimum value is 10% of the initial base value I think

not the initial pom

[plain river]

btw doom has a unique minimum of 0.025 so it takes until level 10 to hit linear pom scaling

which means instead of stopping at +5 damage per pom it declines further down to +2

💀

other notable things mmm

slicing shot has a unique initial pom value of 20%

and ares call has a unique minimum pom value of 0.05 💀

ares seems like the king of having weird values for minimum pom and first pom ngl

battle rage also has a unique 30% initial pom value

like

idk what they were doing

[plain river]

one last addition

it seems like boons can have decimal boons from poms, but the game will only display them as a whole number?

might not include that I think I need to understand it better first

some boons are cast as integers and their poms are as well

some boons aren't and those can have decimal values they just won't display the decimals on the boon display screen

[plain river]

new cursed knowledge drop

swift strike uses the epic rarity as the base value

base value = 0.7x, common = 1.28x, rare = 1.14x, epic = 1x, heroic = 0.86x

flurry cast seems to add a very neglible amount of inaccuracy when you take it

[zenith fractal]

oh hey I knew this one

[plain river]

so swift strike and swift flourish seem to be coded way differently

swift flourish is coded how I would've assumed swift strike would be

[tight basin]

like 3 into poseidon flourish, 1-2 into lighting strike, and like 5+ into static discharge lmao

maybe like 2 into tempest flourish

but static discharge is gonna be doing a lot of damage so you want to pom that

the special as well but you're getting more jolted procs realistically

[plain river]

the jolted proks are also just going to be more valuable most of the time thanks to it being a base damage increase

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1007142577948086316/1486088954725007620/image.png?ex=69c43bb1&is=69c2ea31&hm=500ccb691e22502ca4ae9cd140227f104a3417f2da0c158d01c0e0dbb4664bfa&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=837&height=218

💀

[plain river]

support fire and lightning strike share an internal cooldown of 0.167

it's not 0.15 and 0.2 like has been spouted a few times

[grand spruce]

which god is best for shield hidden aspect

cast/bullrush build

[gusty halo]

What kind of build should I use to round up all yellow mirror talents?

I want to do the achievement in one run

[frank goblet]

best cast is poseidon, aphrodite, or dionysus, important to note with beowulf is that mirage shot is bugged where it doesn't apply the 30% debuff to the secondary cast and is instead just double damage

[gusty halo]

I tried using shied aspect of Beowulf but I struggle greatly every attempt on heat 10

Don’t care if the build is cheesy just want to get the list out of the way

[tight basin]

like hestia or zeus shield prob i guess lmao

[gusty halo]

I got through it just now with greater evasion fist feather build

Stars aligned for merciful end as well

[tight basin]

fair enough lmao

[fallow hound]

Few tales are told of hades

[weak zenith]

Many tales are told of Hades actually

[grand spruce]

does exit wounds work with beowulf?

or nah

[zenith fractal]

it doesn't exist on beowulf; the casts don't lodge so they made it so EW cannot appear.

[grand spruce]

ohh okay

[weak zenith]

exit wounds damaging yourself cuz the stones pop out of you visually 999358269422321774

[proper furnace]

New hazard bomb dropped

[fallow hound]

thats not what the epic narrator said

[open moth]

The same guy that said I stepped on a rake and died? Yeah I don't think so

[weak zenith]

why would i listen to someone named after a simpson

[potent tree]

D'oh!

[karmic leaf]

guys

[fallow hound]

girls

[karmic leaf]

i've just bought hades like on wednesday

and im stuck on elysium

and ive been seeing a lot on tiktok like ppl showing the best builds and stuff

[open moth]

TikTok is a terrible way to source information on Hades.

[weak zenith]

says bro who likes gilga

[open moth]

Says bro who used AP2 and complained about the game being too hard

[weak zenith]

999358269422321774

oh no chosing a viable pact option

• im doing 51 rn and running ap2

[zenith fractal]

yeah ok AP2 is definitely viable there

[open moth]

This was Rama that they tried AP2 on and complained about though

[zenith fractal]

ah lmao

still kinda reasonable (you really only care about hammers) at 50+, but more rng-heavy than AP0/AP1 for sure

[open moth]

Yeah
But DC0 over AP1 was a wild choice

[zenith fractal]

truly

on rama you're specialing every enemy anyway, so DC2 generally doesn't matter

[weak zenith]

999358269422321774 no bruh what

[weak zenith]

999358269422321774 i think that one was actually my hestia pact

[plain river]

dude literally said a true statement

Tiktok is a horrible source of information

especially for Hades

[zenith fractal]

get this man a

[weak zenith]

i cant find the image where ap2 blocked the athena legendary and the dd boon lol

but im pretty sure that was hestia

[zenith fractal]

regardless; AP2 hestia is surprisingly consistent. I did a bit of 50 heat winstreaking on it quite some time ago as practice for 59/60

[weak zenith]

yippe gut automodded for posting image links but unmuted now

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1394734947180482570/1487514416583934202/image.png?ex=69c96b41&is=69c819c1&hm=aed1f017fb11ca0d3134fcf2a99aedbc59e529bd2846c11f3d00cf9aab5a3820&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1104&height=659

anywa see its hestia

• "complained about the game being too hard" bruh i reserve the right to call 51 heat hard thank you very much

[zenith fractal]

51 heat is freaking hard 🔥

[fallow hound]

51 heat is BONKERS

32 HEAT IS ALRWADY CRAAAZY

🔥🔥🔥🚒🚒🔥🔥🔥

[grand spruce]

what do you guys think are fun aspects

ive only been playing around eris nem and beowulf and i wanna try others

without like

wasting my blood on some mid ones

ive been thinking of investing in fists but idk if i want talos demeter or hidden

i want an aspect that does like huge chunks of damage

[shell root]

the Rama bow might interest you, with a good build I managed to get a crit power shot that dealt more than 3500 damage and even without good luck, you can still get power shots that deal 1800 per crit

it does take a bit to get used to it, but you might like it

also, you don't need to invest blood into it since you don't really need the blood bonus of that aspect

[shell root]

if you want to go fist, demeter is the best fists by far, combine it with merciful end and you get a really fun playstyle

[grand spruce]

aw how do i get image perms

[shell root]

beat heat 40

[grand spruce]

i wanted to show my 3 stacks of jerky

[grand spruce]

can i ask how to build merciful end w demeter

which of my abilities should i have athena/ares for

[wheat elbow]

Ares attack Athena special and dash

[grand spruce]

i js wanted to ask

does ravenous will (take less damage and deal more when you have no cast) work on beowulf when you have the casts loaded

because i got it and i js wanted to know if its worth something

nvm i answered my own question

it does work

[open moth]

Arthur sword, any spear aspect with the dash strike hammer, Rama bow, Hera bow with Aphro cast, max-level Demeter fists, max-level Gilgamesh fists, Hestia rail (preferably with more blood), and Lucifer rail with triple bomb hammer are going to be your mega volley aspects

[jolly chasm]

beo :(

[frank goblet]

clockets...

[jolly chasm]

psuedo tech zagbow

[tight basin]

Chiron with heroic Rd and 15 ichors 😔

[open moth]

I forgot about beo

[lucid oar]

Beowulf damage sucks, the attack is so slow

[jolly chasm]

Trueeeeee

[open moth]

I smell a Stygian user

[zenith fractal]

(this is funny on 2 levels:

• RT is a good player and knows beo is meta
• the "diobeo" strategy (which runs stygian) has the highest damage of anything in the game
  )

[open moth]

I recognized the sarcasm and therefore the first bullet point, was not aware of the second lmao

[tight basin]

yeah dio beo can go big boom

needs way more rng than the standard flood shot build bc it needs more casts from chaos/wells, but with pom bug and mirage shot (more rng lmao) it deletes way way faster

[grand spruce]

im referring to the build guide in pinned (which ik may be outdated) but what extra dashes is it talking about on gilgamesh?

im reading about it and it keeps saying stuff about abusing the extra dashes

[shell root]

gilgamesh has a base of 4 dash if I remember correctly

[grand spruce]

the wiki doesnt mention such thing nor am i getting bonus 4 dashes

[shell root]

no, 4 dashes total, not 4 bonus dashes

wait, you sure? I did a gilgamesh run recently and I guarantee you I had more than 2 dashes during my run

[zenith fractal]

gilga gives +2 dashes yeah

zag has 1 at base, and mirror can give +1

[grand spruce]

ohh wait nvm

maybe i was js tripping

[zenith fractal]

the dashes are however shorter and happen successively if the button is held

[grand spruce]

yeah im getting the bonus dashes now

mbmb

[grand spruce]

which cast is best for beo

[wheat elbow]

Poseidon, Aphrodite, and Dionysus

Poseidon is safest since it leads you straight to Mirage Shot with Artemis attack

[grand spruce]

which god gives the most attack percentage boost

[plain river]

Aphro has highest +% for strike and special

[grand spruce]

what do you reckon is the best strike for fists

[plain river]

Not a +% strike

[grand spruce]

rly

[plain river]

Yeah

Lots of hits, low damage per hit plays nicer with flat damage

traditionally it’s doom since the Merciful End duo exists but you can make zeus and dio work really well as well

[grand spruce]

ive been enjoying plume zag fists lately and idk how to build it especially when i dont get to use god boons

[plain river]

when you don’t get to use god boons?

[grand spruce]

i mean

keepsakes

[plain river]

ohhh

Yeah typically you just use keepsakes this is like the only build I can think off of the dome that doesn’t

and it does suffer for it

[plain river]

I thought about it for a second

It’s not so bad

Since you have 3 pretty decent options for strikes

Aside from that, aphro really benefits zeus and dio and artemis would benefit every one of these strikes so they’re safe picks later on

pos has tidal dash for non-Ares strikes

you kind of really want athena for doom so it’s a teeny bit more restrictive but doom can get by without the duo you just have significantly less dps

[zenith fractal]

Unreliable as hell

but quite safe upon a highroll

[exotic ravine]

how do i consistently hit the dash attack on the arthur sword

sometimes its like i just phase through enemies

[plain river]

You kind of have to buffer your dashes

Keep a decent like 0.1s before you hit it again

[exotic ravine]

what keepsakes should i be using when i don’t need a god one

i alternate between the hourglass, acorn, and hades call

[frank goblet]

those are the best ones in like almost every case, in high heat you tend to also click earring for the extra damage

[glacial haven]

What are the best casts for Hera Bow?

[frank goblet]

aphro cast is the best

[neon fog]

Hello I've finally finshed 32 heat on all weapons but i wanted to try getting a sub 10 for once, im not really too good at being fast but the times count regardless of heat right? Is it better to just run with minimal heat? I think I've heard FO speeds up spawn times so it's technically faster and EM2 is slightly faster lernie but does it actually have a big impact

[frank goblet]

yes the common speed pact setup is FO2 and EM2 for those reasons, FO also speeds up boss phasing so thats another bonus, most common aspect for speedrunning is beo but any work

[neon fog]

is the pact just those two + a TD of any level to prevent timed challenges or are there more? thanks for answering 🙂

[frank goblet]

TD is actually detrimental as the in game timer doesn't run during the hades survival room in tart, same is true for thanatos

[neon fog]

Gotcha this is really helpful thank you so much!

[frank goblet]

oh one other thing, not really needed but a good time save to be aware of is that if you get thanatos and you happen to be next to him in a menu, wait until he leaves as he just kinda bleeds time otherwise

[tight basin]

For and em2 have really large impacts lmao

Faster spawns add up over the course of the run and also sooner jolted procs bc they attack sooner

And em2 arena vs em0 is like tiny

Being able to group 2-4 heads and only having to dash like twice to get across the arena is much faster

[neon fog]

does gilgamesh benefit from +dashes on a merciful end build or am i still better off hoping for rush delivery?

[grand spruce]

gods pride vs gods legacy?

or does it just depend on what build youre going for

[zenith fractal]

what pride helps with:

• good coreboons
• better hs+rd / reflex rarity
• better rarity on tier 2s

What legacy helps with:

• getting more than like 1 duo/lego during the run

The problem with legacy is that you're losing out on 20% chance of epic rarity on some very relevant stuff, in exchange for just 10% duo/lego chance (something pretty much any other rarity boost can do all the same). You'll see people occasionally run legacy if they're using a strategy that doesn't work at all without certain duoboon(s). Even in those scenarios, a case can usually be made for pride being better.

[grand spruce]

ooh good to know

because ive been running legacy all the time

js thought it was better especially for getting duos early game

also any tips on the witches mini boss in asphodel

[zenith fractal]

Learn the witches meg #1232563075916234752 message

[plain echo]

What is the best companion hades

[zenith fractal]

meg's

[tight basin]

You still take +dashes if you see it first bc it's instant benefit compared to having to find Hermes again and praying for rd

Although like +1 dash vs hyper sprint I might lean towards hyper sprint but if it's +2 then I'd prob take that

[neon fog]

big thankies

[exotic ravine]

guys how do i deal with the awful enemies that stunlock you in asphodel

one hit from them and i am just stuck

[zenith fractal]

you can dash out of range of boneraker swings between two swings, what are you talking about

even on FO2

[exotic ravine]

i just need to lock in and practice against them i guess

[grand spruce]

zeus or aphro on eris attack

[tight basin]

Zeus

Easily

[plain river]

+% strikes for rail are all just purely worse than a flat damage option

unless it’s Hestia then it makes sense for the sniper shot

The highest aphrodite can be at epic rarity (+100% with no poms) is the base for zeus strike (common no poms is 10 damage chain lightning) and zeus strike has innate aoe + a ton of zeus boons to further boost dps

plus it is additional damage, not +%, which lets it scale like crazy

[grand spruce]

talos vs demeter on fists

[zenith fractal]

dem

[grand spruce]

can i ask why

[shell root]

multiple special hits for just playing with your weapon is really good

[plain river]

Talos doesn’t do much for fists while demeter adds a nuke every 12 hits

[zenith fractal]

compare that to talos, which applies +50% additive on attack and cast with its magnet. it's not a global 50%, you don't buff the thing you get 90% of your damage from (ME/ZAP) by increasing attack/cast damage.

[exotic ravine]

has anyone got build tips for beo shield and gilgamesh fists, i need to run with them for the prophecy

and do i need to fully invest blood into them

[plain river]

no to both

beo because its main damage source is the cast damage, and levels in it are boosting like your secondary damage source

and gilga because maim rarely pops off tbh

[exotic ravine]

i lost the run but the merciful end potential on gilga is crazy

all the divine dashes go crazy

[neon fog]

skill issue on my part but is there any indicator for when high conf is active?

[proper furnace]

Nope

[karmic leaf]

hey im new to this game n is aspect of zeus on the shield good?

i just got it

[potent tree]

Yep

[shell root]

it's good, but it does take some getting used to

[fading flower]

the best

but you have to know what youre doing

[potent tree]

Beowulf is stronger

[shell root]

beowulf can do more damage, but it's not stronger than zeus' aspect

[potent tree]

Oh, gotcha

[neon fog]

rq how do you aim for sht with nemesis because i do be hitting air ALL THE TIME bro

I get a sub 3 tartarus and then i shoot myself in the foot with a 3 min asphodel bc im suddenly diagnosed with skill issue midway

[tight basin]

i would argue that it's still stronger regardless

beowulf is still really good for heat, much better than many aspects in the game

yeah zeus is better than it at heat, but it's not like beo is leagues behind zeus

beo is best by far for speed, and zeus is leagues behind it objectively

[shell root]

I mean, fair enough, I always prioritize how good a weapon is at helping you survive over how strong it is when I rank them objectively, and Zeus demolishes Beowulf at that

[tight basin]

beo is also good at surviving

it's still a shield

[shell root]

zeus is way better at it tho

[tight basin]

beo can't do 64 heat bc of ri3 (no casts) and dc2 really

wouldn't say way better

like yeah there's def a margin but like

beo can def survive lmao

[shell root]

I'm not saying Beowulf suck, it's more like, Beowulf is an S tier weapon, Zeus is just an S+ tier weapon for me

[tight basin]

fair i guess

[grand spruce]

pos or dio on beo

or is it a preference thing

[wheat elbow]

Poseidon is just more consistent because it gets you halfway to Mirage Shot and doesn't need extra casts from Chaos/Charon

Dionysus way higher ceiling though

[grand spruce]

ceiling in terms of what

skill?

[wheat elbow]

Damage output

[karmic leaf]

whats the best build for it

or boon

[karmic leaf]

i mean im not that new maybe? im stuck on elysium n is on 22 tries to escaoe

[analog mauve]

that is new

[fading flower]

no idea tbh

[shell root]

It's nothing against you, but until you beat a run, you kinda ARE a new player

[karmic leaf]

okokk

elysium mobs r so hard bro

i hate the one with spears

Im having a very good time using the Aspect of Zeus

its so fun to use

[analog mauve]

forreal

[karmic leaf]

idk what boon is good for that weapon tho

the boon ive been getting is ares , athena n zeus

[shell root]

Elysium enemies are a difficulty spike, yeah, but they makes you learn how to deal with the boss of that area better

[near vigil]

The only ones of those I have trouble with are the shield ones bc it takes forever to kill em💔

[near vigil]

Fr

[karmic leaf]

have u finished the game?

but im having fun with hades to be honest

very good game

[near vigil]

Finished the main story at least yeah

[near vigil]

Yeah it’s one of my favs

[karmic leaf]

what weapon do you use?

[near vigil]

I’m working on shield atm

Trying to get the hidden aspect.

[slow whale]

chat whats a good build to speedrun the game
im tryna 100% the achivements
i have to forge bonds w like 2-3 gods and max out all of my keepsakes

[frank goblet]

shield of beowulf, start poseidon keepsake for cast, get mirage shot (artemis x poseidon), look for cast % from chaos, optimal hammer is charged shot, sudden is also quiet good

[slow whale]

thank you friend
ive only used beowulf once but this strat seems op

ill give it a try in a bit and let you know how it goes

[zenith fractal]

Alternatively, Eris with ZAP build is considered much easier to learn and get results with early on in learning how to go fast (though it has a decently high skill ceiling too)

[tight basin]

it also works with more gods compared to beowulf

so you can forge bonds and max keepsakes much easier

the only like necesssary thing would be zeus attack

[slow whale]

i tried a run w the bou strat
went badly

🥹

[slow whale]

so my first boon is zeus attack right

[slow whale]

aight i see

seems like a good strat cause i gotta give nectar to other gods and get my keepsakes up at the same time

[plain river]

Yes

[distant current]

How do i get

Lucifer aspect

[junior belfry]

If I recall correctly, just keep playing with the rail and someone will give you a secret phrase to unlock it.

[thin canyon]

Question about certain combos, does sea storm lightning trigger zeus's legendary boon?

[distant current]

I think is zeus

[analog mauve]

Yes

[shell root]

First, make sure you have Guan Yu's aspect for the spear unlocked
Second, make sure you have 5 titan's blood invested in any Exagryph aspect
Third, equip it and do runs and try and talk to Zeus, he should give you the awakening phrase for lucifer

[distant current]

oka

i have 4 titan bloods invested

and idk if i have guan yu

im getting the missing titan blood with heat

[shell root]

guan yu is the first hidden aspect you can unlock, all the other ones are locked until you get that one

it's the hidden aspect of the spear btw

[distant current]

i will see

im in the styx temple now

[distant current]

the titan blood farming in post win run is insane

[shell root]

isn't it just heat farming?

[tight basin]

not necessarily bc each weapon has their own bounties, so doing 1 heat on all weapons gets you 12 titan blood but you're not really heat farming

[neon fog]

for nemesis heart rend what combination of artemis/aphro works best? i don't think i apply enough weak with the aphro spec if i do artemis atk

[plain river]

Aphro attack works really well

Nem already has a lot of crit chance so the higher additive just works so much better for consistent dps

[exotic ravine]

i cant believe i never thought of not taking artemis attack

need to give that a shot

[molten compass]

Hi, does anyone know a good build for the Sword? I'm a new player.

[zenith fractal]

check pinned; the guide has a few pretty good builds for every aspect including the swords.

[molten compass]

I didn't really understand much of the build guide section—like what I was supposed to choose, etc.

[zenith fractal]

what in particular causes you trouble? is there any vocabulary you don't understand?

[molten compass]

I couldn't figure out what kind of build I should make

[zenith fractal]

I fear that if the problem is indecisiveness, I cannot help with that. The guide provides you with the different good options, it's your job to pick the one you want to try.

[molten compass]

For example, I couldn’t figure out what to choose in the mirror or anything like that

[zenith fractal]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/695178152325939303/1491359564371726536/image.png?ex=69d76854&is=69d616d4&hm=112f89ad02b1e722a540ad15ac7d0a25c7081ebaf35de2e544daf693998e34d4& most widely accepted optimal mirror setup

you can change High Confidence to Thick Skin if you're scared of dying, and stygian soul for infernal soul if you are playing a cast-aspect. AnyHeat Achilles spear can run Shadow Presence, and above like 40 heat people start to switch to Shadow Presence too. High Heat (32+) uses Stubborn Defiance.

[molten compass]

Is this the right one for every build?

[zenith fractal]

pretty much yeah, with only small variations (described above) depending on aspect and heat-level

[molten compass]

Which character traits should I choose for the standard sword?

[zenith fractal]

"character traits"???? "aspect" you mean?

[molten compass]

I'm talking about Zeus-style gods—which of their three abilities should I choose?

[zenith fractal]

oh, boons.

[molten compass]

yes

[zenith fractal]

that depends on the build you choose. the pinned guide will tell you what gods (and boons from those gods) that you need.

[molten compass]

https://www.leereamsnyder.com/hades-build-guide#some-builds-that-will-come-up-a-lot I'm looking at this guide—is this correct?

[zenith fractal]

yup! that one.

[molten compass]

Could you give me an example?

[zenith fractal]

what do you mean? you're looking at the list of builds already. specifically, the link tells me you are looking at the part about the common build paths that work on pretty much every aspect; the "build-archetypes" if I may.

[molten compass]

What I want to ask is this: I don’t know enough to build my own setup yet, so I’m looking for a build where people say you’ll be really strong if you choose these options.

[zenith fractal]

I still don't know if I understand what the misunderstanding is here. Maybe re-wording / shortening what is mentioned in the guide will help.

• FDS AKA "Flat Damage Soup" (or "Flat Damage Bonanza" as I think it's misnamed in the guide?), where your goal is to have as many independent sources of damage (lightning, hangover, doom, static discharge...) and buff all of them with global damage buffs. "global" means buffs that affect all of Zagreus' damage-output, such as Hermes' "Rush Delivery" boon.
• ZAP AKA "Zeus Artemis Poseidon" (FDS-like), where you get Poseidon's dash, zeus attack, special or dash depending on the aspect, artemis attack special or dash depending on the aspect, and get as many applicable tier 2 boons from these three gods as possible.
• ME AKA "Merciful End" (FDS-like), the duoboon between . also get to activate doom more frequently.
• %-based and crit-based scaling: If the aspect has an attack that deals a lot of base damage (or a special that does the same), such as Hestia rail or Rama bow, it can be sufficient to just slap on a few attack % buffs and maybe some artemis too for good measure to have semi-decent damage-output for most of the run. Even in the case where the main build idea is %-based, I would still recommend starting it as ZAP, by forcing Poseidon on the dash to start the run.

[molten compass]

I still don't get it

[zenith fractal]

Then the answer is "play more of the game and try things out until something works".

My job here is done, I give up.

[grand spruce]

is there like an objective bow aspect like ranking

im torn between the three unlockable aspects because all the runs i see make them seem good

[frank goblet]

rama/hera (heat/anyheat dependent), zagbow, chiron😍 😍 😍 😍

[zenith fractal]

best to worst
speed: hera > rama > zagbow >>> chiron
heat: rama > chiron/zagbow >>> hera (hera top 1 or top 2 bow before like 50 heat though)

[grand spruce]

im surprised zag isnt bottom

how so

[zenith fractal]

crit good

[frank goblet]

chiron the majority of the time plays like a worse zag bow so by extension zagbow must be better

also for heat you can lwk get away with playing zag bow like a worse rama and still perform well it’s great

[jolly chasm]

Okay, for speed, zag bow beats Rama for anyone not named Timothy or ocaml

[open moth]

At this point, you're probably better off just messing with stuff to build an intuition for how the game works. You don't need to choose everything optimally right off the bat like an MMO for it to work.

[tight basin]

rama is good for speeding in the sense that you need to absolutely master the aspect for it to be very fast with it bc the skill floor for it is so high lmao

Would never recommend rama for speed lmfao

[jolly chasm]

ye, it is so tough

[distant current]

best boons for spear

hades aspect

[exotic ravine]

what makes ME so good on demeter fists?

[tight basin]

it's just good on most melee aspects in general

bc the game revolves around dash striking, and with divine dash you immediately drop the doom

it's good on fists, sword, and spear

although some aspects of the weapons prefer a different build but ME is reall strong regardless

[frank goblet]

zeus shield too ^^^ idk about the other non hidden shields in terms of speed bc ive never seen them played

[zenith fractal]

mid. ME on a melee weap is still ME on a melee weap so it works, but the combo ends up being clunky to work ME for from specials being a waste of time in 95% of situations on zagshield/chaos

[frank goblet]

kinda what i assumed but wasnt sure, im assuming cshot me is best or is it like a % attack like high heat?

[zenith fractal]

ZAP with splash-start -> arty/aphro attack -> pick up a zeus core or call at some point -> rod/smair

[tight basin]

for speed i think it's just cshot with %

yeah

ME is good but shield attack is just really awkward

and also cshot being base 80 kinda just makes up for that lmfao

[noble breach]

Is Hades Spear any good? i mean the charge attack build.

[tight basin]

not particularly lmao

like it can work but it's def not great compared to what the other spears can do

quick spin and a good % attack wouldn't be too bad

but achilles kinda just does it better and faster bc it's more intuitive to buff yourself rather than debuffing enemies

and also not being able to get flurry jab is kinda just sad

[zenith fractal]

Spin attack-damage debuff doesn't affect later spins

[distant current]

what build is good to destroy bosses

[jolly chasm]

beowulf, flood flare + mirage shot

[frank goblet]

lucifer, triple bomb w/ aph or artemis special

[distant current]

i used that without aspect of lucifer and i winned the run

[open moth]

gilgamesh dash strike build

[distant current]

guys humm

[zenith fractal]

currently humming

[distant current]

i have 68 of hp with aspect of guan yu and the only left is hades

how i dont die

😭

im scared

[zenith fractal]

do you have acorn on

[distant current]

no

i have skelly

[zenith fractal]

lmfao, well, lesson learned for next time: styx acorn > styx tooth in 99% of cases (the 1% is from a specific niche that can apply when you're playing EM4)

[distant current]

i ded

i hate hades

[zenith fractal]

(this was not the lesson to take away from that run /j /lh)

[distant current]

oka

i luv yu artemisa

[open moth]

Play it safe, spear can outrange dad

Or is that only for non-secret aspects, shoot I forgot

[distant current]

im alredy ded

[pulsar stream]

Which hidden aspect should I use to defeat Hades? And what build should I add to it? I prefer the shield but the hidden aspect just doesn't click for me, so I'm open to suggestions (or tips on how to use the hidden aspect of the shield) 🙂

[open moth]

Beowulf is arguably the strongest speed aspect in the game. You can just load a cast or two into the shield and instanuke most things in the game
For shield, Zeus shield with Zeus special and Beowulf with Aphro cast are pretty good bets

[pulsar stream]

Thanks

[tight basin]

the big tip for beo is to dash strike into your dragon rush, it starts so much faster rather than a standing strike
also you want to get poseidon's cast to get the mirage shot duo with artemis to abuse a bug where you get 100% more damage rather than 30% from mirage shot

[lunar mantle]

my first (and probably only, until more upgrades) guan yu run, I just had cerb trinket for extra health for literally the whole run.
but kinda yeah, almost hafta play real evasive/defensive in that fight for any hope of life drain to keep up with any hits you might take..

[shell root]

the guan yu hp nerf is brutal

[turbid needle]

is the spear considered the worst weapon in 1? I feel like only Achilles is good and only on a cast build, or flurry jab + high rarity artemis strike MAYBE, but that's luck

[spring canyon]

If I inflict an enemy with Weak (Aphroditie) and then they attack, and I Deflect that attack (Athena), then does the deflected attack deal less damage to the enemy because of Weak?

[tight basin]

guan yu is really good for high heat, it's beaten 64 heat modded

also artemis attack rarity doesn't really matter lmao

but cast builds are where achilles shines, 150% damage boost kinda good, esp with hunting blades or lightning phalanx

the best/worst weapons are generally sorted into a top 3 and bottom 3, with top 3 being rail, bow, and shield while bottom 3 being sword, spear, and fists

in no particular order

generally kinda dubious tho bc some weapons have really good/bad aspects compared to others, like achilles is a really good aspect on spear but chaos shield is pretty bad on shield

[eager tendon]

is aspect of guan yu good for high heat because of its healing?

[tight basin]

kinda

using athena's attack gives you a big spinny disk that reflects

the healing does help a lot tho

[eager tendon]

ohh right

should've guessed that athena played a part in it haha

[tight basin]

you kinda have to be cracked at guan yu to play it well tho and learn the animation cancel for super high heats

[jolly chasm]

or play on mac

[tight basin]

or play on mac yeah lmao

[eager tendon]

wait what

[tight basin]

mac has a bug where the spin on guan yu reflects every projectile on screen

[eager tendon]

lmao

[tight basin]

and also rail i believe? might be rocket bomb specifically

[jolly chasm]

ive never heard of that one, but probably

[tight basin]

@analog mauve you play on mac right

im pretty sure you brought this up before

[turbid needle]

I know achilles cast builds are insane, that's what I've been using for my spear runs lol, but otherwise spear has low damage low speed, so seems like the worst weapon by far

at least with the sword you can spam dash strikes, but spear dash strikes are kinda ass

though I'd say sword is just worse fists, not sure if that's a controversial opinion?

the dream builds are merficul end and heart rend, and fists just work better with these

yes, there's arthur, and it's a lot of fun, but I've no idea how to play it on high heat when you can't just tank everything and still do ok

[frank goblet]

if comparing their accomplishments between both heat and speed, fist is more dominant but in heat sword is more dominant in terms of highest attained heats

[turbid needle]

why though? dash strikes leave you exposed unless you just take ddash every single time

fists are more versatile

[frank goblet]

they leave you exposed yes, but sword has better spacing, you're not mashing dash strike on sword and you're still dash striking on fist for your attack loop so it's not like that they have not exactly distinct loops sword also has more base damage

[turbid needle]

heavy knuckle though

seems pretty good on heart rend builds

[frank goblet]

you're not getting heart rend as a build on fists in high heat

your main build path is zeus attack

with preferred hammer being long knuckle for the better spacing

[turbid needle]

talos fists + heart rend + heavy knuckle is pretty silly damage, but I've only tried this on low heat, admittedly

hmmm, what else I wanted to ask
oh yeah, the chaos shield
is it worth using? zeus and beowulf are already top tier

and seems like chaos got nerfed ages ago, but used to be OP at one point

[frank goblet]

chaos is kinda just the worst of the shields

[turbid needle]

even worse than the zag shield??

[frank goblet]

was the best of the shields in EA bc hidden didnt exist as well as it working well with explosive return

chaos plays like a worse zag shield

so yep

[turbid needle]

thought it was more like charged volley on the bow, could be decent idk

it throws the shields in this fan pattern

[plain river]

It’s just not good for what it does tbh

You sacrifice time from your main dps rotation to try to focus on side damage and end up not being as good at either

[plain river]

Builds relying on duos fall apart at the level of heat being discussed here tbh

between Routine Inspection and Approval Process

[turbid needle]

ah I see, though with dark foresight maybe you can still get enough crappy boons to sell

[plain river]

you won’t be able to benefit from it due to Routine Inspection

[turbid needle]

unless we're talking disabling the entire mirror

[plain river]

routine inspection 1 disables all the build consistency ones at the bottom of the mirror

mind you there’s 3 more levels past that

[turbid needle]

I know max heat is basically impossible, there are only like 2 wins, 1 zeus and 1 rama, it was not meant to be winnable

[plain river]

So you lose dark foresight and god’s pride/legacy and your 4 starter rerolls from persuasion

[plain river]

I’m talking about where fists kinda maxes out tbh

around 58 I think off the dome? can’t remember

Where zeus/rama/guan-yu have all done 64

[turbid needle]

so you're saying the sword can climb higher still?

[frank goblet]

arthur has done 60

[plain river]

It goes higher than fists yeah

[turbid needle]

literally how, it's very hard to avoid damage with arthur

I know it has a dodge offset but it's still so unwieldy

[frank goblet]

skill 👍

[turbid needle]

I guess, it does seem like a low skill floor high skill ceiling weapon

[plain river]

Does it’s 60 use lightning rod

[frank goblet]

also thats wrong fists can go higher than 58, theres also 60 dem fist (im speaking modded atm to be clear)

[frank goblet]

nope

[tight basin]

2 Zeus but yeah

And 1 rama

[frank goblet]

#h2-discussion wrong side of server!

[potent tree]

I miss the bot that terrorized everyone about posting in the right side

[frank goblet]

@ stickybot

[plain river]

stickybot is an upstanding member of community too bad it died

[analog mauve]

Yea

[analog mauve]

ill try to get a clip or something this weekend

[turbid needle]

what about lucifer?
played it a few times, but always picked poseidon attack + sea storm + tri beam
it's good but I basically ignore the special because it's so hard to detonate (your beams will auto-aim the enemies not the bombs)
any other good lucifer builds?

[plain river]

Bomb focused builds are just your best option like

zeus strike, artemis or aphrodite special, triple bomb

zeus strike has the chain lightning which adds flat damage to your laser (massive bonus tbh) while also adding aoe to help explode the bombs

tidal dash also really helps

since any damaging source will explode them

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/725021639506526249/1449737975616372736/2025082808014601-C7D8C4153CC9802713604F54C53304E0.mov?ex=69e02b74&is=69ded9f4&hm=ea4d049a20b91331e79a65491647d6c182bd0ee11ef94af192d34fc0369e92ef&

Here is it in action

[turbid needle]

this is more like an Eris build tbh

why play Lucifer then

[frank goblet]

all the rails but hestia have like the same core preferences

[zenith fractal]

I cannot help but notice the jank meg angle

[plain river]

I never quite figured it out or bothered to ask

I lowkey always gamble and 75% of the time it only hits Theseus

[zenith fractal]

you tap north on the D-pad for even just a frame and meg

that simple

[plain river]

dang

I’ve been dashing too much

[zenith fractal]

(or kbm, press W)

[frank goblet]

i cant find the win button help

[turbid needle]

I think beam and bullets have considerably different mechanics, but I'm not sure, I just know sea storm on the beam is ridiculous, while you're better off with Zeus strike on Zag/Eris

[plain river]

Sea storm isn’t nearly as crazy nor consistent as just running zeus strike tbh

Super soaker might be the most effective meme build but it’s still a meme build

[turbid needle]

poseidon attack + sea storm + double strike + tri beam + delta chamber = one of the easiest wins

[plain river]

sorry lemme just hit 2 hammers and a duo for my build

[turbid needle]

Lucifer gets fewer hammers than the other rails, so you're pretty likely to land on tri beam at least

[plain river]

Well yeah

The 9 hammers is why triple bomb is so consistent as well as it’s best hammer

[turbid needle]

triple bomb is also nice because you can actually detonate the bombs without hitting them

[plain river]

the difference between it and eris is your special can much more consistent become your main damage option compred to clockets

and just generically hits for way more damage

So you’re spamming it off cooldown way more often and playing around exploding them

[turbid needle]

Eris is ridiculous if you get cluster + rocket bombs, but that's a lot of luck

[plain river]

I know you asked earlier about eris vs luci and I think that’s the big thing

similiar build not identical playstyle persay

[turbid needle]

most of my rail runs have been with Eris, so I'm pretty familiar with it, but Lucifer seems like a big downgrade unless you go for the meme powerwasher build lol

which is a litlte lame because in Hades 2 ||Lucifer is what Eris (the goddess) uses in the harder version of her fight||

so I was pretty hyped to unlock it, but found it a bit underwhelming

[plain river]

The special build is really strong

Do you have your luci upgraded

[turbid needle]

yeah it's maxed

[plain river]

It’s no eris like eris is the dominant speed aspect

for rail

but it is really quick with a similiar build

and supersoaker can’t compare for speed vs a more eris-like luci build

[turbid needle]

but what is the point, you don't get the damage buff, do the luci bombs just explode harder?

[plain river]

they explode for the 100 base damage

[turbid needle]

and the Eris ones?

[plain river]

compared to pulsing for 25

eris bombs has 50 base damage

They also explode in a larger area

[turbid needle]

Eris bombs should be 88 with the buff, so not much worse

[plain river]

The difference in it being base damage is pretty notable

[turbid needle]

is it better to just take some AoE damage dash boon and dash into the bombs to detonate them more consistently?

[plain river]

Very

Tidal dash

is pretty much the poster boy for this

[turbid needle]

so the build is still some combination of Zeus and Poseidon lol

[plain river]

yeah just oriented the right way round

[turbid needle]

you could just take poseidon on attack, special and dash and then get sea storm through cast or call

kinda complicated though, might not always work out

but you'd get both builds in one, attack + special

[plain river]

lemme shoot my build consistency in the foot harder

cuz why not

[turbid needle]

lol

[plain river]

the chain lightning aspect of zeus strike vs the bolts from sea storm also make exploding the bombs easier

from a speed perspective, where I’m coming from, this takes far too long to get online

until you hit sea storm your damage from your strike lowkey sucks and you don’t really have a solid way to explode your bombs

until you hit tdash later

and once the build is together you aren’t even going faster to the extent where I think you’d catch back up

It wants so many components

zeus strike is easy, you just need static discharge for jolted and can focus on special dps and tidal dash

[turbid needle]

yeah this makes sense

btw about jolted, is cold fusion OP or meh?

zeus-demeter duo

[plain river]

most builds that have zeus reapply it fast enough for it to be negligible

and most builds don’t want demeter or don’t care for her natively

she’s also anti-synergy by slowing enemies down when jolted deals more dps when enemies are attacking faster/more often

[turbid needle]

some duos are surprisingly strong, like there's that Artemis Zeus duo that makes your uncollected bloodstones shoot lightning bolts, this actually solo'd Theseus for me, I used all of my casts at the start, then was busy fighting the bull and Theseus just died on his own

[plain river]

Yeah

Biggest shocker for people tbh

I was shocked

But it’s radius is literally like half the screen

900 range radius around the cast

For reference snow burst is 600

[turbid needle]

still pretty good, should be useful for Lernie as well

[plain river]

It’s useful for like everything

Practically free dps across a full fight just for throwing out your casts

I can modify some stuff to show how big 900 radius is hold on

It’s massive

[turbid needle]

it works with splitting bolt right? sounds fun but I don't take collectable bloodstones anymore
I'm assuming I can't get this duo anymore

[plain river]

Duo is restricted without infernal soul

[turbid needle]

yeah figures

[tight basin]

That's just base Zeus attack with extra steps lmao

[turbid needle]

I think infernal is not that good unless you play achilles or beowulf

[tight basin]

Access to lightning rod kinda good

Considering Artemis and Zeus are lowkey kinda splashable on a lot of builds it's kinda free

[turbid needle]

yeah you can tell why they demoted Artemis in Hades 2, +15/20% crit on attack/special is just too strong

[plain river]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/795659377755422742/1493994537654423662/IMG_3728.mov?ex=69e0fe56&is=69dfacd6&hm=c62e07239518511a573389bf31b9d2e969dd71d2ba0fe7b089b38b4112d2246d&

about ye big

Is how far around the bloodstone Lightning Rod can target

[turbid needle]

wait, is it really that big

[plain river]

Yeah

900 unit radius

[turbid needle]

with all 3 stones dropped you can even cover the Hades arena

[plain river]

Ok so this is technically 898 units not 900 but essentially

[turbid needle]

wonder if this duo gets the damage buff from achilles

[plain river]

I didn’t want to modify any game files so I just used a hyper pommed up high voltage (lvl 36 heroic is +349% radius)

[plain river]

It won’t

[turbid needle]

sad

[plain river]

Cast damage only impacts the default stuff for casts

so additional riders don’t count

[turbid needle]

so it won't buff ice wine/feast DOT either?

[plain river]

ice wine doesn’t have DoT

Scillanting feast isn’t boosted

[turbid needle]

wait what about demeter's laser casts, those are multi-hit as well

it should buff those?

[plain river]

Buffs all of those

Multi hits aren’t the same as entirely new damage sources like blizzard shot projectiles or sea storm lightning bolts etc

[turbid needle]

yeah because people often recommend crystal clarity and hunting blades for Achilles, wouldn't make sense otherwise

[plain river]

Crystal clairity? Mmm

Hunting Blades is pretty common and lightning phalanx

I guess crystal clarity is more on the reddit end of advice

[turbid needle]

lmao, what about reddit

actually I've tried both and IMO crystal clarity was way stronger, Ares cast kinda sucks until you get all the boons that make it suck less

with crystal clarity and 2 regenerating casts I was just dropping auto-aiming turrets all over Hades' arena and he died very quickly

[plain river]

It’s in the stone-age for Hades

I’d also just generally distrust a lot of games subreddits since some can pretty often just become this echo chamber that stop real innovation

[turbid needle]

I see a lot of Chaos recs on reddit, even in more recent threads, which is odd

I guess some people played the game ages ago then just keep giving bad advice for years

[potent tree]

I just remember them picking a fight with WR speedrunner jazz over dash poms

[turbid needle]

anyhow, I'm pretty much done with Hades 1, did everything but Nyx and Achilles prophecies, which I probably won't bother with
fun game, but a lot of bad aspects (zag sword, zag shield, hades spear etc) and even good ones require specific boons or hammers, which is not an issue in 2
darkness and blood farming is also insane, but you don't need to max out literally everything, just get the good stuff
also, EM4 is dumb as hell, only did it once with the Zeus shield and it wasn't fun

[potent tree]

Yeah, certain boons and such are very meta

[turbid needle]

you pretty much always want thunder flourish on Zeus shield and thunder strike on Zag/Eris rails

it's like, why even make this a choice then

[open moth]

Because it's a roguelike

[turbid needle]

just saying 2 is much more versatile, you're not locked into taking a specific god

but yeah, EM4
he summons mini-bosses in phase 1, so the phase 1 difficulty is complete RNG, could be fine, could be a nightmare with 3 butterfly balls that are insanely tanky
also he does that twice, don't forget
jar healing is whatever, get the jars or just hit him more if your DPS is good
cerb call is whatever, dodge it
entire phase 3 having limited visibility is really ass though, artificial difficulty

oh and don't forget about the spear throw, it's so fast even without forced overtime

[plain river]

And then it keeps cycling

because newer players see it

and use the info

and perpetuate it

[turbid needle]

reddit does have that issue, people are more interested in making posts for upvotes than actually playing the games

[open moth]

Butterfly balls are doable if you circularly kite the butterflies
I don't feel like phase 3 is artificial difficulty, it just makes your playstyle more reactionary and requires good dad prediction

[shut quarry]

got the game today, not really into this kind of games but im trying my best! love it so far

[turbid needle]

idk man, even Haelian always defies on EM4, and he has thousands of hours in this game, maybe it's a bit overdone, just my 2 cents though

he always catches stray spears and goes "dad pls" lmao
there's just no time to react

[plain river]

EM4 is just overkill before like 50-55 heat

[turbid needle]

so it's not recommended even on 32 heat?

[zenith fractal]

absofreakinglutely not LMFAO

completely agree with shackle, EM4 is a 50+ thing

Haelian does EM4 in some videos because it makes for content (and he knows he has the skill for it) but if you're just trying to win it hurts your chances

[turbid needle]

huh
I mean it's fine with a shield, as long as you have all your DD's, maybe take the tooth just to be sure

but the fight is a bit of a DPS check due to the healing and the mini-boss adds, so you would want a solid build

[zenith fractal]

yeah if you don't have a build you're cooked 👍

[turbid needle]

I feel like you're better off ignoring the adds and focusing daddy instead, the adds will disappear once he phases

[zenith fractal]

not necessarily

it depends on what enemies appear

[turbid needle]

I've watched like a dozen of Haelian's videos and he always has EM4 on and always defies at least once

[zenith fractal]

• skullcrusher: 100%, if you wish you can ignore them for the most-part, only really dealing damage to them if they happen to land near where dad is and you're DPSing dad anyway, or if dad is gone.
• doomstone: you can either kill or ignore, your choice. you may sometimes be sniped by some laser from the other side of the arena if you leave it alive, but doesn't always happen, and on the shields there's counterplay even when it is about to happen.
• sneak: you might want to get rid of them, pretty chaotic summon.
• soul catcher (butterfly ball): ain't no way you're killing those, they have so much armor and tp around the place and disappear. if one appears, consider yourself doomed.

[zenith fractal]

it's a tough fight and a lot can go wrong outside of the player's control

[turbid needle]

but I mean if someone with thousands of hours in the game is still fumbling it, it's probably rather unbalanced and has a lot of unavoidable damage

[plain river]

He’s not exactly the most focused high heat player tbf a lot of his content is youtube content like “how much max hp can I get”

[zenith fractal]

One small misconception you might have and that I want to clear up is that haelian is by far not the only player with thousands of hours in the game, and not every player even with this much playtime will be equally good at every in-game skill as any given other.

As you know, it is possible for someone experienced and dedicated enough to beat 64 heat. There are multiple 64-clearers with less than 1000 hours who play high heat on zeus (or in some rare instances, rama/eris/guanyu) better than I, someone with over 3000, ever could even if I started playing 64 heat on one of those aspects for the next 500 hours. This could be to some small extent attributed to lesser talent or natural ability, sure, but a more significant chunk of the reason is that I don't play these aspects as often as they do (and I am by no means a onetrick, i.e. I do a lot of other stuff, meaning the practice is less targeted too and may result in a shallower learning-curve).

Additionally, Haelian's content is meant to appeal to viewers, since that's literally his job. He isn't as good at most conventional Hades skills as other people with his amount of playtime, because practicing something or grinding something out for multiple hundred hours doesn't make for enjoyable content. As opposed to this, challenges that no-one plays (or don't have much of a skill-factor associated) but show off a unique gimmick/interaction/build do.

To be clear, I'm not a hater and calling him bad for no reason, I'm just saying getting mechanically better is not where his income comes from so there's little incentive for him to do that.

[turbid needle]

okay, it seems like people are reaching for the "the boss is fine, Haelian just needs to git gud" argument, and I don't know if I want to argue that

[zenith fractal]

oh I agree, I dislike EM4 as much as you (though maybe not for the same reasons). I am however relatively bad at EM4 too; most actually competent high-heaters can beat 50 heat EM4 hitless quite consistently. I've heard there's a surprising lot one can do even in bad situations. Someone's beaten 64 heat without any boons (with qol modpack, but still)

[turbid needle]

most actually competent high-heaters can beat 50 heat EM4 hitless quite consistently
huh seriously? wonder what weapons they use

[zenith fractal]

pretty much any of them

shoutouts to old retrash vods

[turbid needle]

as for boonless, Sisyphus' keepsake is pretty OP, so that shouldn't be too bad

[zenith fractal]

you have to avoid every EM4 attack with 1 dash

you get 0 extra dashes because no mirror and no hermes

[turbid needle]

oh yeah there's that lol

[zenith fractal]

and zeus shield doesn't have the damage to keep up with tight deadline, so you have to use Rama. and even with THAT busted aspect you barely have the time

[turbid needle]

but you can play shield or bow and just space him out

[zenith fractal]

you are NOT spacing out EM4 on monodash 😭

[turbid needle]

well do you just die then lol

[zenith fractal]

1. tight deadline is a problem

• you lose out on a lot of damage regardless of aspect by staying far away. every aspect is a melee-aspect.
• EM4 (and FO2 dad, even without EM4. now imagine with EM4) move soooooo much

[turbid needle]

you can probably still i-frame each gigaros spin with good timing even with 1 dash?

[zenith fractal]

you can, yes. even the triplespin can be dashed through with a good dash-angle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMlbwydlXQ0 enjoy

(cheesy's hypermodded boonless/boonpurger run)

look at the movement on dad

[turbid needle]

does boonless mean only styx is actually boonless?

they're using ares strike throughout the run

[zenith fractal]

selling all boons ASAP

yeah he called it boonless but it's more of a boon purger ruleset

[turbid needle]

Hades took 5 minutes lol

[zenith fractal]

and it would have taken more than 10 on something like zeus

[turbid needle]

and he's constantly pausing for telegraphs

I mean, while this is cool, at this point you might as well just TAS it and see what's possible with that

[zenith fractal]

3 reasons why not:

1. some of the rng (among it, enemy spawn-positions) is handled in the game's engine (and is thus inaccessible to a modder), which no-one can legally do publicly (due to IP-rights). this means someone creating a TAS would have to do so by themselves and not distribute their code anywhere or even tell anyone about how they did it, which due to the amount of work creating a TAS takes effectively makes Hades TASing impossible.

• there is a significant difference between pause-buffering and being TAS, regardless of game. Hades is no exception. TAS would always be better than any human.
• in the event you're also pointing out the use of mods in that message: every single run that's possible with this modpack is in theory possible in the vanilla game. hades is in many ways a flawed competitive game, so the speedrunning / highheat community made a modpack to make the game more fair for those playing competitively, without creating impossible gamestates.

[open moth]

TAS would always be better than any human
Not necessarily. There's been instances in the SM64 community, for example, of human runners beating a TAS because the TAS used outdated strats. One of them was done because the human runner had cleaner swimming in Dire Dire Docks and shaved a few seconds off

[zenith fractal]

Hades is different, because of rng being an essential part of the game it's very much about improv; the setup and build for every aspect is weakly solved https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game (with the game picking the worst rng-outcome every time as player 2, or with the game picking the best rng-outcome every time) from many starting-situations. The existence of the RouteFinder tool also theoretically makes a strong solution possible; but because Hades is a game that runs in real-time, that would without any exaggeration take longer than the total age of the universe, big bang to big crunch, several times over (and require an unholy amount of storage-space to hash every possible gamestate).

I am aware TAS has been on rare occasions beaten because of new discoveries, but I was making a point here about TAS being unbeatable when the players already know how the game works, since that's the case for hades

[tight basin]

The only TASable thing is like first boon time lmao

Which has been done iirc

[lucid oar]

Iirc the tas was 0.79 then nalei got 0.77

[zenith fractal]

nalei beating boon% TAS was the first indication that this game's timer sucks, and should not be considered "beating" the TAS

(time dilation)

[zenith fractal]

skelly-kill maybe

[frank goblet]

WHERE

also i thought the first instance was like fives?

[zenith fractal]

nalei beat the best possible boon% time at some point, and we thought we had just messed up somewhere. but turns out the game is just naturally dilated by a few % even on bootup so the boon% PBs they had during that time probably came from dilation.

[zenith fractal]

(pseudo's post where he used the simulated dilation mod to pick up the c1 boon in like 0.02s was, from what I understand, a reference to nalei's original post beating the best possible time)

and the fives ISS-incident was something different. it was originally brought up as a possible candidate for an example of dilation, but now understanding in detail why dilation happens, I can say that I'm unsure what happened during the ISS incident but it definitely wasn't dilation.

[frank goblet]

i see ty for clarifying

[spring canyon]

Does "Life Affrimation" from Aphroditie also increase the Max Life from Centaur Hearts?

[zenith fractal]

yes*

*terms and conditions apply: it must be a room reward. thanatos hearts don't count for example

[turbid needle]

but I believe charon hearts do count? it's weird

[spring canyon]

What's the official wiki? I don't want to go to fandom but I can't find anything besides FExtra life and the pinned github page in this server

[turbid needle]

the fandom wiki is the most complete, I believe

though, you unlock an in-game codex fairly early on, it lists all boons and requisites for duos etc

[spring canyon]

Should I save up my Ambrosia for bonds and Companions or trade with the Wretched Broker for Titan's blood?

[turbid needle]

hold on to your ambrosia, it's the rarest resource in the game

Dusa's bond requires 10 ambrosia, then the companions require 10 ambrosia each to level up and there's 6 of them, so that's 70 right there

[frank goblet]

mostly complete, but has some parts that are not true

ex: eris rail cant get hazard boom

which is untrue as it can

[spring canyon]

On the pinned github wiki, how do you change the aspect of weapons?

[zenith fractal]

you don't. the aspect-incompatibilities are listed when hovering over a hammer-upgrade, and the hammer-incompatibilities are grayed-out and surrounded by a red outline

[turbid needle]

there's no in-game way to look up the hammers like you can with boons, right?

[frank goblet]

h2 addition sadly

[turbid needle]

big sad

[spring canyon]

It's really hard to aim the Rail gun's Rocket Special (Specifically the Daedalus Hammer upgrade that makes it into a spread of 5) and no I will not use auto-aim

[turbid needle]

that's the best hammer combo on the rail, you shoot it point blank to insta-activate Eris' buff

just pretend that it's a melee weapon now

[spring canyon]

Yeah, smacked Hermes onto it to make it faster as well. Made it to Asterius on that run

Demeter's call gave me a bit more time to aim though

[analog mauve]

Why not

Autoaim i mean

[willow fossil]

Personally I dislike auto aim because I like having control of where I shoot

[zenith fractal]

crazy

[frank goblet]

based

[plain river]

@turbid needle Eris isn’t necessarily strike focused more flat-damage focused

where it pools as many different sources of easily spammable flat damage to get boosted by the buff

it works extremely well and it why eris is the speed-aspect for rails

[weak zenith]

Eris more like bad aspect

[turbid needle]

I always take thunder strike on Eris, then all the other Zeus boons like double strike, static discharge, splitting bolt etc, the bombs still outpace it because I often take poseidon + sea storm, so that's all the prior Zeus stuff BUT ALSO all the Poseidon stuff

[weak zenith]

https://tenor.com/view/the-simpsons-source-leak-fake-leak-leaking-gif-13900499262115031917

[turbid needle]

if you get cluster bomb, then you just nuke every room, it's that simple

[plain river]

You special and strike

but you don’t just special

your openner is the special and you special pretty often for both dps and to keep up the buff

[turbid needle]

also, strike takes forever to take off armor, is it because Zeus on-hits don't work on armored enemies?

[plain river]

no

Armour just has significantly higher numbers than regular hp

[weak zenith]

Wdym Zeus on hit doesn't work on armor

[turbid needle]

idk, takes forever

[plain river]

The only difference between armour and hp is armour is typically significantly higher

[weak zenith]

Silk issue

[turbid needle]

then how come bombs destroy armor much faster

[plain river]

No reason

[weak zenith]

https://tenor.com/view/hollow-knight-silksong-hollow-knight-silksong-skill-issue-silk-issue-gif-17913408697281522471

[turbid needle]

I've finished a beast crest only run, so that can't be it

[weak zenith]

I was so disappointed when i grinden that stupid fatass bug down just to get beast great bruh

[plain river]

Sea storm is functionally running at like half efficiency with eris since lightning strikes have a 0.2s cooldown but rail fires at 0.167s intervals iirc

[weak zenith]

I did it super early too

[turbid needle]

one of the best crests in the game once you learn it

[weak zenith]

Feels like more a speed kill thing

Aside from the exploit

Would much rather use wanderers

[turbid needle]

the beast pogo can be chained non-stop if you keep dashing back, it's OP in combat
anyway, back to Hades

[turbid needle]

so what's the best special boon on Eris

artemis?

[plain river]

artemis or aphro

artemis gives crits and pops off hard

aphro gives smouldering air and the highest regular +% modifier available

So you can spam out high dps calls from zeus or dio

[weak zenith]

Me when the air is smouldering

[turbid needle]

also is it worth taking Dio on attack, can you make that work

[plain river]

you can

it suffers opportunity cost compared to zeus but it’s like the second most functional

[frank goblet]

can work but considered worse than zeus bc zeus just has so many good other openers

[weak zenith]

Dio secondaries are poopy

They should have made the dio aphro duo into a dio secondary

[plain river]

Hey dio has Strong Drink and Premium Vintage for options

it’s not so dire

[frank goblet]

premium vintage my goat

[turbid needle]

he also has that damage reduction boon, when you're below 40% hp

but I can definitely see why they demoted him to an NPC in 2

[weak zenith]

They also demoted Athena

[plain river]

It’s certainly an option

there was a time 6 months ago where I could readily name every boon from a brief description

[analog mauve]

Yeah blocked

[plain river]

This is why Falseside is my GOAT fr fr

[plain river]

Wait you’re doing sea storm on the bombs

what in tarnation

[turbid needle]

why not? it's fun with clusters/rockets

when I play Lucifer I do the opposite and get sea storm on the attack, then take tri beam and just powerwash whole rooms

[plain river]

I just have preconcieved biases from speedrunning a lot tbf

The only stand-out thing I see for this is pos having a 70% base special which is only second the aphro

[turbid needle]

yeah it just makes sense to me, high % + you potentially get all the on-hits from your Zeus attack, why not

[analog mauve]

Pos special is weird

It throws everything away

[turbid needle]

enemies take damage when they bump into things though

[analog mauve]

Negligible

I like it on charged skewer for guan yu and other spears

[weak zenith]

When possidon anything that isn't the dash

[analog mauve]

Pos special on Chiron is goated

I always take pos keepsaake for kmchioronc

Chiron*

[weak zenith]

I remember liking possidons knockback when I first started

Since you couldn't get hitstun on armoured enemies

[plain river]

Only really usable with tidal dash tbh

also wall slam damage sucks unless you have breaking wave

[analog mauve]

Poseidon call is super underrated for heat

My top5 calls would be Zeus dio Athena pos

That's 4

But I only like those 4

[plain river]

Based

my top 8 calls would only have 4 calls in it

[analog mauve]

Pos over Athena depending on build

[frank goblet]

no arti call smh smh smh

[analog mauve]

Arti call holds a special place in my heart but it is kind of ass

It's goated for iframes

[frank goblet]

yee

[zenith fractal]

every call except dadcall is goated for iframes

[analog mauve]

Arti better

[frank goblet]

^

[turbid needle]

Athena seems like the best call tbh, you keep your build but can tank for free, aside from that I like Zeus for damage but you have to stay close to the boss

[plain river]

I prefer dio to zeus since it ultimately is more damage per call it’s just not as bursty

[analog mauve]

Yea but also blinds me so I don't like it

Only downside

[plain river]

Hades not having a epilepsy warning is lowkey criminal

[analog mauve]

It's actually criminal how hades does not have a visual effects slider