h1-builds-and-combat

[proper furnace]

Yeah

[eager flint]

yes, no reason not to.

[waxen dragon]

And wow, had a great run with Beowulf mirage shot, fully loaded, chaos bonus cast, really starting to get the hang of Beowulf, I didn't know how to play it so I mostly just use special or play Zeus aspect

[proper furnace]

Tho what's the wording of shoals again

I don't want a sudden sea storm situation

[eager flint]

boons that knockback

[proper furnace]

Nvm then

[eager flint]

but yeah, what made you think flood flare wouldn't apply razor shoal ?

[waxen dragon]

I wasn't sure if it knocked back if it was a Beowulf cast

I think mostly stuff just died when the casts pop out. It seems if I charge past the target, the casts popping out miss them

[proper furnace]

Yeah casts get released at the end of your rush

Not when hitting

[eager flint]

yeah, you should not charge your rush more than necessary

[proper furnace]

Or basically not charge it all

[eager flint]

yeah

especially with Cshot

[proper furnace]

Go for the point blank rush

[waxen dragon]

Yeah it's tricky with timing, sometimes I start too early and the enemy is so far away I have to wait in place for them to arrive

Crush shot is better?

[proper furnace]

If you start it too far I'd just release the rush and dash to them

[proper furnace]

Passion flare beo is more for high heat

[waxen dragon]

I thought flood flare was required for mirage shot duo?

[proper furnace]

Once ap/ri come into play and getting mirage is hard

Passion + snow burst and priv status gets you the dmg

[waxen dragon]

Oh. What's ap and ri?

[proper furnace]

Approval process/routine inspection

Less boon choices/disables mirror

[waxen dragon]

I think I've mostly left it with family favourite instead of priv status

[proper furnace]

Yeah FF is better most cases

Priv status works here cuz you are getting the 2 curses asap here

[waxen dragon]

But I don't think I'm at high heat

[proper furnace]

(dem attack instead of snow burst works too)

[proper furnace]

Then you can just chill with flood + mirage

Flood's AoE is also a lot larger

(with passion you also may have to adapt to tiny flare bug if you forget what activates it)

[glacial sonnet]

nvm missed it above

[keen vortex]

I know there technically isn’t a real right answer to this
But what’s the technical best aspect for each weapon

I guess what i’m technically asking is what aspects have the objective highest/fastest damage output when combined with other correct conditions

like what aspects would outperform the others, even with the exact same hammers and boons

[errant narwhal]

as far as i know its nemesis sword, guan yu spear (?), beowulf shield, demeter fists, eris/hestia rail

oh and zeus shield as well

[keen vortex]

Outside of Beowulf snd guan yu, thats about what i expected

I know beowulf has great damage, but guan yu

maybe i just havent used it enough but i can’t stand it

that health cut always seemed super intimidating, i’m not a good player to begin with, let alone when i have less than i’m used to

[tight basin]

I think Achilles is generally considered better than guan yu

But guan Yu is also pretty strong

Esp considering it's beaten 64 heat with the speedrunning modpack

[eager flint]

I'd put achilles above GY, even with the 64 clear

[keen vortex]

I have heard that, the bonus damage is crazy if i remember, but what EXACTLY it does escapes my mind at the moment, but everyone constantly reminds me that its technically the spear’s cast build

[eager flint]

+150% damage on casts lol

[keen vortex]

jeez

[eager flint]

just need to zoom every so often

[keen vortex]

That’s the entire gimmick, so it’s basically second nature

Kinda how chaos aspect shield forces you to learn to block and bull rush

[eager flint]

lol

no

chaos aspect is the same at lvl1 and 5

shield special sucks too much to be used at all

[vagrant crane]

+150% to attack as well

[keen vortex]

i know people hate that thing but something about it… pun intended… speaks to me

[eager flint]

Usually every weapon has one or two stinker aspects, and chaos is clearly the one for the shield

(arthur/hades/chiron/gilga&talos for the other. Kinda zagrail, but it's ok-ish)

[keen vortex]

I was just gonna start defending gilgamesh

[vagrant crane]

gilga worst aspect in the game

0 contest

[eager flint]

I'd argue chaos is worse, because it's really just dogwater zagshield

[keen vortex]

Maybe i see something everyone else doesn’t, i love that thing

[vagrant crane]

chaos can still clear high heat

[keen vortex]

that thing too

[eager flint]

whereas gilga is maybe weaker, but y'know it at least does something

[vagrant crane]

gilgamesh has no capabilities at all

in any way

[eager flint]

Yeah but like

[keen vortex]

gilga and chaos shield are probably my most used aspects on those weapons

[eager flint]

chaos aspect is so lame

who the hell makes a useless aspect

[vagrant crane]

i cannot imagine why anyone would actively choose to use chaos

[eager flint]

Next you're gonna say Chiron is the best bow

[tight basin]

It's still a shield tho, which makes it good

[keen vortex]

i mean i totally get that the other utilities are totally way more useful, but i use it to put debuffs on a whole room at once

[eager flint]

it inflicts more mental damage on my sanity by virtue of its gimmick being useless

[keen vortex]

thats my second favorite bow

[eager flint]

any other shield can also put debuffs on a whole room at once, except the debuff is "lol you're dead"

and they can do it easier

[keen vortex]

rama is my bow of choice nowadays

my usual aspects for each weapon are nemesis sword, hades spear, chaos shield (but ive been TRYING to win with beowulf with not a ton of success), Rama bow, Gilga fists (demeter close second), and hestia rail

[vagrant crane]

cursed

[keen vortex]

so ive been told, yes

[vagrant crane]

why would you use hades

[keen vortex]

Largely because i love the parallels between our moveset and Hades’s during the final boss battle

I love that massive spin attack

[eager flint]

hades uses achilles special tho

only on EM4 iirc, but still

[keen vortex]

I think you’re right cuz i havent dont EM4 and havent seen him do that

Obviously there’s not a TON of special dialogue for using his own spear against him, but the narrative significance of killing him with his own former weapon just feels satisfying to me

[vagrant crane]

now what's definitely not satisfying is using hades spear

[keen vortex]

The only thing i’d change is to give us some sort of equivalent to his shockwave attack

[vital night]

Repulse shot

[tight basin]

That's his cast

[vital night]

I think he means the ring

Oh right

[tight basin]

Yeah that's the cast

[vital night]

I was thinking of the phase change one

[tight basin]

That one's just a bonus lmao

[eager flint]

ngl I'd like to have it on death defiance

[keen vortex]

that would be cool

[proper furnace]

"we have shockwave at home"

[vital night]

Real

[keen vortex]

either that, or have it be a bonus thing that you get when you have hades aspect combined with his sigil call

[eager flint]

curse of drowning

[keen vortex]

the lasers would be cool too, but that would be overkill in our hands

[proper furnace]

Triple beam luci 🧠

[vital night]

Luci

[keen vortex]

I just like weird weapon aspects

I tried hard at one point to like Arthur even, but even that’s too terrible for me in most occasions

I got weird opinions
Like despite its objective high performance, i never loved hera bow

And obviously, chaos shield and gilgamesh are my star players

Maim damage is just doom with more risk, but them doing more damage to you hardly matters if they’re already dead from whatever else i’m throwing at them

i just put something stupid on my dash, hope to get an extra one or two from hermes, and get a good synergy on my attack, and just hold dash attacks for nuts combos

everything dies real quick

everything that everyone else hates about gilgamesh are my favorite parts

[last perch]

I try to come back to gilga every now and then to see if I can make it click for me somehow and it never really does

I feel like Maim being 50% extra to you was a little harsh, even a little bit less and I feel like the aspect as a whole would be a lot better

[proper furnace]

Gilga's downside will never not be hilarious

Especially when compared to beo

[last perch]

25% more to them, 25% more to you. It has a nice symmetry that makes it feel thematically more appropriate for the idea of "maim", too. So idk why it's so harsh where it's more to you

especially on a melee weapon

The other issue I think is that the Maim damage can't be improved by boons

[keen vortex]

I will agree, 50% is kinda a lot

But when you have like artemis and ares or dio on your attack and dashes, the damage they’re doing matters a lot less

[eager flint]

you like the nerfed dash and dash strike ?

[keen vortex]

I call that the paper shredder, yeah

[proper furnace]

Yeah maim aside the combo is still sluggish

[vagrant crane]

ok but why would you have arty attack and nasty dash

[keen vortex]

I mean i mostly say that as an example, but which dash do you mean?

[proper furnace]

Dio's

Nasty is the ea name

Along with the classics like divine dash being titan toppler

[eager flint]

it's also an indication of how underpowered it is

[errant narwhal]

titan toppler believer from day 1 btw

shield having innate deflect for 1 day also my favorite

[proper furnace]

Yeah hangover doesn't really works much

[keen vortex]

i totally forgot that was the name

[proper furnace]

As dash I mean

Thabks to sad numbers

And peer pressure too

But that's an even worse issue due to how hangover works

[keen vortex]

I will say, i wish weak and hangover dash were switched

I wish weak activated where you started and hangover activated where you ended

[proper furnace]

Also what

How did that even-

[errant narwhal]

if you go all the way back in #hades-patch-notes youll find it lmao

[keen vortex]

Either way, if having dio dash isnt your preference on gilga, then put arti on dash and dio or ares on attack

whatever combination of those three you want, gilga will turn from just another aspect into a paper shredder

[proper furnace]

#hades-patch-notes message got it

[keen vortex]

or aphro if you want

[eager flint]

https://tenor.com/view/what-why-huh-steve-harvey-confused-gif-17449734

[proper furnace]

Peerless parry replaced by dread flight got me curious

[last perch]

Gilga attack is awkwardly slow tho so idk about dio

[proper furnace]

Like how bad/weird it worked that you replace it with that

[keen vortex]

well, then why not chill? Or weak

i used to use privileged status, if my boon preferences arent any indication

[eager flint]

"paper shredder" do be an accurate description, given it explodes against anything slightly sturdier

[keen vortex]

keyword used to

[eager flint]

privileged status artemis

[keen vortex]

thats why i put another status on the uppercut

again, used to

[eager flint]

though I guess once you apply it it's more damage for crits

idr if main counts for privilege status

[proper furnace]

Nope

Only gods curses

[eager flint]

not that I'd care too much

[keen vortex]

i dont think it does, but marked would?

i think?

[proper furnace]

Yeah and marked is terrible for PS lmao

The mark is either bouncing off after 1 hit or you don't get it on most bosses

[keen vortex]

either way, i dont use ps anymore, unless i’m doing something stupid or revenge focused

i just put status on two of my buttons, something else on the third to cause occasional big number, dash attack and everything disappears

[proper furnace]

Fully honest

This speaks more of the game being balanced lol

Like I loved gilga but it def needed more testing

Which sadly it didn't get

meanwhile beo wasn't tested as much too but got the good end of the stick

[tight basin]

Beo has more bad bugs than good bugs but that one good bug is kinda just very very good lmfao

[keen vortex]

i don’t know man
something about those weird fists

gilga, chiron, chaos shield, nowhere NEAR as bad as people say

[proper furnace]

Depends where you ask ig

Most people here are already focused on speedrun/high heat

And you find the flaws on those aspects quick

[keen vortex]

and hades spear

it probably says more about how well they made each weapon than it says about me, but i find a lot of success with some of the builds people kinda universally dislike

But i also define success at a way lower bar than a lot of good players

[proper furnace]

And people that play them do it besides the downsides

If you ask most hades communities that are not here you'll surely find more love for all the aspects you mentioned

maaaybe except hades? But spins are funny for people

[tight basin]

I mean from a casual gameplay standpoint, every aspect is fine to use in any situation
At higher level play, they have flaws that make them not great

Also chaos is like fine for heat, it's still a shield with cshot lol

And the +15 doesn't apply to cshot so it's not like a massive loss in dps

[keen vortex]

Thats probably why my preferences are so loose
I don’t care about super high heat or the fastest run time

I get a lot more enjoyment out of making it out with some crazy bull that shouldnt work, just by the skin of my teeth

[keen vortex]

cshot?
i love coming here to learn real terms whazzat

[proper furnace]

Charged shot

[proper furnace]

Also you can get this experience on heat

Look at retrash runs

[tight basin]

Lmfao yeah

[proper furnace]

Seeing victory screenshots and try to guess the weapon from him is always funny

[keen vortex]

like here’s another one i’ve seen people argue about-
do people prefer death defiance or stubborn defiance

I tend to go stubborn

[proper furnace]

Death defiance 90% of the time

Stubborn has its place for high heat too

So you can use the no healing pact

Also, bc heat makes normal encounters way harder

Lot of rng with bp

Stubborn demands a cleaner boss fight but you can practice them a lot better

[waxen dragon]

Demeter fist build? Merciful end? I've always just used zag fist. I haven't figured out Talos either

[proper furnace]

That's its best build yeah

Can do zeus attack > jolted and go for splitting bolt

Also fists are all pretty much the same

Dem is just the best cuz its charged upper helps before you get ME

And still has a nice chunk after that

[keen vortex]

I like the multiple uses concept, but knowing my luck, i’d use all 3 revives before hades himself and then not run into patroclus or good fountains

[waxen dragon]

Oh I have to try Zeus splitting bolt

[proper furnace]

You can still recover them through athena/charon wells

[keen vortex]

totally forgot about athena doing it too

[proper furnace]

But dds do become just a safety net

I often lose 1 to lernie still

Or ely enemies if I balled too hard with my hp

[waxen dragon]

Legendary chaos gives an extra life

[proper furnace]

Good luck finding that

[keen vortex]

With stubborn, if i end up having touch of styx dark, i end up using it as a free heal on the last enemy in a chamber

[proper furnace]

We do the same in high heat

[keen vortex]

i wish touch of styx dark was based on chambers defiance was used in instead of chambers travelled though

[proper furnace]

Patty is a god send for stubborn

[proper furnace]

That'd be busted

Oh yeaj

Do you know the athena dd trick with stubborn

[keen vortex]

cuz there are times when i couldve made it to hades with a stubborn left but the temple having like ONE extra chamber screws me

[keen vortex]

?

Oh wait the healing when you dont have it?

just stalling until full health?

[proper furnace]

Use stubborn in combat > take either of the refills > you get a death defiance and stubborn comes back next room

And now you have 2 lifes

You can do this 2 times so you have 2 dds + stubborn

[keen vortex]

right

i’ve done something similar with skellys tooth

Mostly on runs where i dont get a lot of centaur hearts

Or i’ll use it if i didn’t do a dio run and get strong drink

[proper furnace]

Out of curiosity

[keen vortex]

probably my favorite secondary boon period

[proper furnace]

What heal skill do you use on the mirror

[keen vortex]

remind me, what are they

Room exit or darkness?

Darkness

[proper furnace]

+3 per room/60% of darkness is converted into hp yeaj

Yeah that tracks

Do you use dark foresight?

(green side of +rare boons)

[keen vortex]

I think i’ve gone back and forth on that one, depending what i’m going for

I think at one point i almost exclusively used olympian favor, but nowadays i switch to what makes more sense for what idea i have for a run

[proper furnace]

Slightly better I suppose

This is prob coming off as annoying but dark regen is the one skill I really hate

Even outside of dark foresight context is just such a ??? Skill

You get a big heal the same time you get a fountain

[keen vortex]

same with family favorite and priv status
I used to exclusively use priv status, now i use whatever makes more sense instead of having to force myself into a debuff focus run

[proper furnace]

And makes you go for darkness instead of stuff like keys/nectar which are just stronger run upgrades (fated dice/pom respectively)

Also re: olympian favor

Rare boons gud but DF is just a lot better

Can't use rarity if you barely see boons

Or common vs rare not being a huge difference

[eager flint]

Foresight is just so strong it's not even funny

[keen vortex]

I totally agree

[proper furnace]

Yeah like, olympuan favor is fine-ish

[keen vortex]

Pride and Legacy, i flip back and forth on though

[proper furnace]

But when its opposite is blood and darkness dark foresight

Is kinda lmao

Also dark regen doesn't work in styx

And lastly, the +3 per room rewards you for not being hit

[keen vortex]

I will say, even WITH dark regen on, i dont find myself doing that often
I see it more as a supplemental heal
Like if i didnt have that on, and i dont have strong drink, the chance of me being at full health is way higher after a boss

[keen vortex]

I hadn’t considered that

i mean i think the way i’ve looked at it from a long run perspective-
if 3 health is the genuine difference between me living and dying, i’m doing something else way wrong, and shouldve lost already

[eager flint]

It's not 3 health

[proper furnace]

Fair

But yeah dark regen I will never talk at least neutral of it

Cuz once you use dark foresight you'll see like 5?? Blue laurel rooms in your entire run

[eager flint]

Unless your runs last exactly 2 rooms

In which case, I don't think I can help you

[proper furnace]

Also yeah on that, it rewards not being hit cuz the +3 starts adding up fast

[last perch]

Oh I used to underestimate Chtonic Vitality and that was a big mistake

It's literally hundreds worth of free healing

[proper furnace]

(and 3 of these rooms are gonna be in tart lmao)

You legit see like 1 blue laurel in elysium

[last perch]

Dark Regen was better for me when I was new at 0 heat cause burst healing, but vitality is just straight better overall

[eager flint]

laughs in Lasting Consequences 4 (the laughter is actually crying in disguise)

[keen vortex]

that assumes i’m good enough to not get hit

statistically, i’m not

[proper furnace]

I'd say it trains you for that

[last perch]

no that assumes math

[keen vortex]

Yknow now that i think about it
i think if i was using the regular death defiance, i’d use vitality, because my lives matter more, because they don’t come back

But with stubborn, because there are times when i’d willingly waste a life to effectively get a healthpack, i’d rather get a big heal all at once from dark regen, rather than 3 every room, that i’ll definitely lose in the next room

i think that makes sense, yeah?

[manic notch]

cmon now, chiron is right there

also talos is worse please

[vagrant crane]

timothy did like 60 chiron or something

talos not even f tier

[errant narwhal]

I used to play talos a lot a lot but it does not do much especially compared to other aspects

[manic notch]

At least in terms of bossing gilga just has a higher overall strength ceiling

[manic notch]

so true bestie

[keen vortex]

Finally someone defends gilga

[dark slate]

Is there any easy and consistent sword build?

[vital night]

splash dash

[dark slate]

mmm whats that

[vital night]

start tidal dash

[proper furnace]

slap all the dmg sources that you can find

add rush delivery

[vital night]

look for double edge, high % on attack

[manic notch]

i got a sub-6 on the thing, its strong it just has slow animations
has a higher ceiling than most give it credit for it just is hard

people dont make use of fiery standing strikes which are busted in tart

and you just get ME and then you have 3 dashes + RR + 25-50% global :)

just have to be clean with the clunky animations

[vital night]

do you start rending or breaching btw

[manic notch]

breaching

rending ideal second

u want rending for heroes/styx miniboss/dad more than early game

[vital night]

ait

[manic notch]

freal there's been too much slander, people just dont know how to play it since it operates on a different axiss to most other weps

[keen vortex]

i totally agree

i think it’s a weapon that you have to kinda lean into the jank

[tulip zephyr]

ah yes the classic, the "they can't kill you if they're dead"

[keen vortex]

it may be clunky, but you dont see minigunners complaining about how clunky their stuff is

yknow why? Everything is already dead

[vital night]

eris is the minigun in this scenario

[keen vortex]

I think of gilgamesh like a reggigigas in pokemon
sure its got a slow start
But once you get it going, OH BOY

[proper furnace]

isn't reggi like terrible in competitive bc of that

[keen vortex]

yeah

but im sure someone still uses him

point being

gilgamesh may SEEM like a clunky mess of a weapon
and maybe it is
but harnessing the jank…
it makes you stronger

It’s 100% Weaponized Jank
If you can beat the game with gilga or arthur, you can beat it with almost anything

[manic notch]

propaganda/tech playlist
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLADg6U0tUZq6db6bZgNBOSYehKl1aK9aU&si=FOMTPWkyOJZK-bV2

[keen vortex]

Im gonna have to watch the hell out of this, cuz i LOVE gilga and never see anybody use it

[manic notch]

i primarily am an ME purist keep in mind
it just uses it better than a lot of weapons

[proper furnace]

That one gilga standing strike clip in tart is still in my mind

[manic notch]

the standing strikes are strong and you can abuse the radius of the swipes

[keen vortex]

right?

nobody ever considers the sideways range

no other fist gets that sort of damage mobility

Even if the other fists had the same dash attack structure as gilga, that sweeping lariat makes a pretty big difference in the slight sideways range

and putting doom on the special?
for maim (discount doom) and real doom combo? chefs kiss

[last perch]

I know "ranking" things isn't simple, but does anyone have any general tips about Hermes boons? I feel like I'm still a bit unskilled about them. Naturally I tend to go for Hyper Sprint + Rush Delivery whenever I can, but other than that, I find it a little difficult to choose between things. Is move speed better than attack speed? Is 10% dodge chance worth it or should I reroll? Those are the types of micro-decisions I find hard to make

[proper furnace]

hyper delivery/+dashes should be your go to all the time

[last perch]

Additional dashes is hard becasue I just forget to use them, lmao! But that's a skill issue so fair

[plain river]

Attack speed is almost never worth it

like it’s usable on rail and arthur

[last perch]

True, but move speed tends to be fairly minor. I do also play Rama which does make attack speed more valuable

[plain river]

But other then that most weapons won’t notice anything because rhey’re dash striking

[proper furnace]

is it? on rail I mean

[manic notch]

epic attack speed is actually decent on gilga too

[proper furnace]

haste also unlocks rush delivery

[plain river]

You’ll at least get something out of it

[proper furnace]

then you can start buying ichors

[last perch]

Oh damn really? That's a good point then

[manic notch]

side hustle is decent if you already have +dashes

[proper furnace]

yeah haste/sprint/plume all unlock rd

[plain river]

It’s just that it’s significantly less movespeed so you need ichors

Special speed is a wierd one

Quick favour almsot never worth

[keen vortex]

i’m gonna have to try that when i get the chance, I don’t know if ive done that yet

[manic notch]

maim ( +rending claws) is 50% global, another 50% with ruthless reflex

nice zeus call on top of ME and ur golden

[tight basin]

btw cherry have you ever considered using gilga for heat

you prob have the best understanding of gilga, which i figure would translate somewhat well to heat

[keen vortex]

I’d love to see that

On another topic real quick though-
Has anybody tried artemis on cast and attack simultaneously on beowulf, and is it as nuts as i’m imagining it could be

[proper furnace]

what's the synergy here

but also while hunter's flare gets quick access to mirage like flood flare you lack the aoe/dmg

[tight basin]

the purpose of beo is to get mirage shot, so you'd need a pos core somewhere

on the other hand tho

i have tried it for dad fight

it's like

the aoe is really bad lmao

tbf i'm used to flood flare so i missed more than often

but it's not like outstanding

[keen vortex]

that also makes me wonder about big number potential with artemis on dash and base attack on gilgamesh

HUGE number?

[proper furnace]

gilga's dash strike dmg is lower than the other fists

by like 5

[keen vortex]

I mainly bring it up because that’s the entire point of the different move set, to use the shortened dash to chain together dash attacks

[tight basin]

fists dont have a high base damage on dash strikes anyways

only gilga has a strong standing strike

[keen vortex]

i’m just imagining beo and gilga having self synergies with crit, two sources of crit on on weapon, combined to do massive damage

Like if you bull rush with beo, with crit on your normal attack, you’d have crit potential on that
but with it on your cast as well, that’s crit potential from two independent sources that could activate simultaneously for MASSIVE CRTITICAL DAMAGE

am i technically correct at that assumption?

[plain river]

I mean

[tight basin]

well for beo like yeah if you crit it'll do a lot of damage

[plain river]

That depends on how nuts

You’re thinking it’ll br

[tight basin]

arty cast at +1 rarity does the same damage as flood flare

so like the damage is fine

[plain river]

Isn’t the aoe different

smaller

[tight basin]

the problem is that arty cast radius is small as hell so you're not hitting many enemies

yeah

[keen vortex]

I’m not assuming NUTS NUTS, just hella crit, sorta hella often

[tight basin]

i mean if you crit a lot then yeah it'll do a lot of damage

10% crit chance on cast isn't like spectacular but like workable

like i said, the main issue is really aoe lmao

[plain river]

Essentially trade off aoe for minimal single target damage

When bugowolf already has damage covered

[manic notch]

im very aggressive in my playstyle i die too much

im not good at playing defensively

[plain river]

I mean it doesn’t help that gilga is

[manic notch]

it makes up for it with standings lol

[plain river]

The least defensive aspect in the game

[tight basin]

Lmao fair enough

[manic notch]

f the dash strike

[plain river]

tbh

[proper furnace]

dw is mainly a joke

[tight basin]

I'm sure if you tried heat you'd do pretty well tho

[proper furnace]

something something can't kill a numbskull

[plain river]

main up for it with standing strikes is

[manic notch]

somebody get the clip

[plain river]

The

Triangluated one

Yeah Imve seen it

[vital night]

Literally asks for a HL level

[tight basin]

beo askes for half of an HL level lol

[proper furnace]

2.5

[manic notch]

did one 40 and died to heroes shrugs

shackle kinda goes brrr

[tight basin]

lmao unfortunate

[manic notch]

what sorta 40 pacts do u use

i honestly just think divine dash + maim + hyper sprint is enough lol

i p much just had that and pp + mark and a bunch of health lol

[tight basin]

hl5 lc4 cf1/js1 em3 mm uc fo2 hs ap1 td3

and bp2 i forgot that

[manic notch]

god i hate bp 2

[tight basin]

i mean if you force breaching it's not too bad

[vital night]

Generally not bad

[tight basin]

some stuff does suck tho

[vital night]

Cloner teleporting pests

[tight basin]

but i think with breaching cross it makes some combos a lot better

namely like slugger ely enemies

you can still just do ME at 40 tbh lmao

instead of ap1 you can do like some more cf and js so you dont get ap-ed

[manic notch]

nah ap is fine

[plain river]

sure

[manic notch]

Just get the boons

[plain river]

my first 40 heat win came when I swapped ap1 off my pact so

[tight basin]

lmao it's doable it's just that i wouldn't be surprised if you tried to get ME and had a handful of dead runs bc of AP

[tight basin]

m 40 heat fists came from getting my zeus attack vorimed and getting a natural ME build

oh i didnt even have ap that run that explains a lot

[manic notch]

It's more just doom resetting that's pain

[tight basin]

i mean it'd be the same amount of resetting you'd do for speedrunning

if you're doing modded at least

[vital night]

Just first boon epic

[manic notch]

Does AP1 favor top boon

I swear it keeps crossing out first boon

[tight basin]

tbh maybe but idk lmao

ap just does whatever it wants and we just cry

[lapis sandal]

any tips for ex4 boonless?

[tight basin]

hestia, shackle, and dont die lol

gonna take long as hell since hestia doesn't have good boss damage but at least it's safe

[last perch]

What's the cast you go for with Poseidon sword? Artemis, Poseidon, or something else entirely?

Pos strikes me as better on the surface cause you can then dash strike after knocking 'em away but hmmm

[eager flint]

athena

[last perch]

that means athena, arty, poseidon, ideally zeus too which is a bit harder to force than 2 gods

it also means we unlock the reallly bad athena/pos duo which reduces the chance of mirage shot, though the relevance of that is hard to quantify

[proper furnace]

Arte/poseidon don't matter

Just go for lightning phalanx

[plain river]

Lightning phalanx before whatever else

Then you can think about opening mirage shot

[vital night]

Ex4?

[proper furnace]

Extreme measures ig

[vital night]

Oh

Yeah

Zeus shield might do well

Don’t particularly want to try though

esp since the spins and whatnot

[lapis sandal]

I want to pull it off at least once
purging pool rng has been an issue though
early signs point to cursed slash being incredibly good

[vital night]

Eh

Non shield melee is tough on EM4

[tight basin]

Cursed slash sounds horrible for boonless em4 tbh lmao

[eager flint]

I don't see why you wouldn't "just" go with shackle hestia

sure, it's less safe on EM4, but still

[glacial sonnet]

whats a funny build similar to eris clocket

[tight basin]

Probably beo tbh if you're looking for big booms

[vital night]

Hestia clockets

Luci

Dem explosive upper

[glacial sonnet]

lol i could try the super soaker when i feel lucky

though falling back to triple bomb luci is more comfy

[eager flint]

and stronger tbh

[dark slate]

Easy and consistent sword build? preferably working without upgrades

[eager flint]

Merciful end, for a given definition of "consistent"

otherwise I guess crit nemesis

[dark slate]

Consistent I meant that it is not hard to roll for it tho

[eager flint]

ah

well, crit nemesis then

[proper furnace]

I'd say go for aphro instead

Crit wants double edge to feel great

[dark slate]

mmm what with aphro?

[proper furnace]

Aphro atk I mean

Depends less on getting good chaos

[eager flint]

yeah, makes sense

[proper furnace]

Can also lead easier into smair

[eager flint]

I mean, you'd go for heart rend on arte atk too anyway

and you'd also open lightning rod this way

[vital night]

Tidal dash

But I feel like I told you that already lol

[proper furnace]

Yeah tidal dash into whatever you find pivot works

[clever field]

You guys having problem with left analog for ipad?

[errant narwhal]

You can contact supergiant about technical difficulties on ios on their website

https://www.supergiantgames.com/contact/

[lapis sandal]

it's not really that bad tbh
the downside of curse is nullified by lots of free obols for centaur hearts, since you won't be buying boons, and you can afford some mistakes if you don't make them in a row
and health regen is pretty crazy otherwise

the hard part is avoiding the mistakes lol

[tight basin]

it's more of cursed slash not working on dash strikes and standing strikes kinda sucking and being slow

which is yeah more prone to mistakes

sword is also famously not great for em4

hestia is probably by far the easiest aspect

has more damage, more consistency, and doesnt need a good hammer

[lapis sandal]

is this usually under the context of FO? because I attempted it once in a normal run and got mercilessly bodied, combining the two
normal speed is much more reasonable

[tight basin]

em4 is generally considered pretty anti-melee

so it's just not great

without FO it's prob more manageable but agian, there's better options if you're just looking to clear em4 boonless

sword can work, as with most things, but it wont be the easiest

[lapis sandal]

so hestia, zeus, prob zag gloves? any thoughts toward the bow?
spear has to be hades, ofc
might not be the best option but it's the most thematically appropriate lol

[tight basin]

none of the fists

not hades spear

for bow, zag bow and rama would work

zag bow would need good hammers for dps tho

[lapis sandal]

the two I haven't upgraded yet lol

[tight basin]

kinda same with rama but you only need 1

zeus is a bit sus boonless, you'd need explosive return for actual good damage

[lapis sandal]

I could see zag fists working
the dodge would be great and it's how I got my 32, but the lack of cast might make it painful

[tight basin]

the reason zag fists doesnt work is bc you deal literally no damage

it's a base 15 attack punch and your only scaling is shackle for another 15 damage

and various mirror upgrades sure but that's not adding a whole lot

[lapis sandal]

yeah damage is pretty low
and lack of boons is pretty rough for fists

[eager flint]

yeah I don't see where boonless fist gets its damage from

[tight basin]

the only aspects that would work boonless would be nemesis, arthur, zag bow, rama, charged skewer guan yu (or git gud with quick spin i still dont know how that thing works), charged shot zag shield/chaos/zeus, explosive return zeus, hestia, and spread fire zag rail

nem and arthur are gonna be the worst by far tho

spread fire zag rail is a bit sus but might work

[lapis sandal]

I mean again cursed slash does give sword other options
the fight's endurance anyway
what about companions?

probably for second add phase

as that's more painful than p3 tbh

[tight basin]

the fight isn't really endurance

you kinda actually need dps lmao

and yeah meg on 2nd add phase is what most people generally do

[lapis sandal]

i mean
with no timer you just need to outlast the boss
it's how I got the 32 with stubborn roots lmao

[tight basin]

the only time i've seen life steal work is on quick spin guan yu, but the only players i've seen make that work have been absolutely cracked at it

[tight basin]

sure but if you want the fight to last like 10 mins and be more prone to mistakes then sure

if you just want to outlast the boss and whittle him down then like literally anything would work
and also hestia would work the best for that anyways lmfao

[lapis sandal]

I find I'm more prone to mistakes when I rush, but hestia does have an advantage yeah
the only downside being lack of cursed slash means zero health regen so no buffer for mistakes

but obv rail is less risky in the first place

the extra damage after reload could also probably take out skulls more easily?

[tight basin]

prob one shots them i would guess

idk how much hp they have

but can't be more than 412 lmao

[lapis sandal]

melee has a time taking them down because of hades pressure

not a lot of time

just had to get better at thinning them out when possible and avoiding eings

rings

the real killers are the add phases and cerb

and the jars in p3

[vital night]

Lol cursed slash is not something to rely on

Just play GY if you want that sustain

[lapis sandal]

I didn't even realize GY had sustain tbh
but 1 hp per hit at spear pace is much less than 2hp per hit at sword pace, is that even comparable?

maybe if the spin attack also regains hp but then
spin attack during that fight seems very risky too

[eager flint]

spin attack is the only thing that regains hp

and yes it's very risky

though apparently someone managed to go through 64 heat with it ??? Haven't seen the vod

[tight basin]

https://youtu.be/pTelcLtfMG0?si=6KDu4ss0jTNal0LY

Quick spin is kinda important

Quick spin for yaknow

Quick

Massive spin for 125% more damage

[lapis sandal]

GY does seem like a solid option for that fight then
iirc it oneshots skulls with special too

[tight basin]

Guan Yu with charged skewer is also like really strong

Weird hestia

But with less hp lol

[vital night]

You can have multiple out at once, you don’t need to be next to an enemy, less hp reduction

[plain river]

I wouldnMt even compared cursed slash

It’s an entirely different beast

Gy at least has range

[potent tree]

Guan Yu got panache

[ancient nimbus]

cursed clash users

have that dawg in them

knowing they'll die after 2 hades Swing

[plain river]

…they’re choosing to die to Hades in 2 swings for 0 benefit

you’ve got to take a dps down in your playstyle to get any value from it

And then

You have to standing strike so much to recover a worthwhile amount

lf you want to “2 swing death to Hades” experience just play hl5 lc4 and take good sword hammers

[lapis sandal]

I mean it's low heat overall, and when you spend the entire round maxing health up and not much else you'll live more than just two hits
especially if you have things like flurry slash that let you rapidly regain health

and ofc that's if you're getting hit repeatedly

[plain river]

Flurry slash makes it far easier for you to get hit & doesn’t actually speed up your swings any

[waxen dragon]

Merciful end on Zeus aspect?

[errant narwhal]

I’m no shield expert but that sound like it’ll really work ngl

[waxen dragon]

Nemesis build, meant to go heart rend or merciful end?

[proper furnace]

Funny in the way you can do either order for it

But yeah it works

[waxen dragon]

Unsure how it works, I attack on Ares and special with Athena?

[proper furnace]

I thiiiiink meta prefers doom special?

But I'd just take highest rarity

Or special if both are the same due to higher base dmg

[waxen dragon]

Oh ok. I thought maybe because doom takes a while to trigger and doesn't stack without the extra boon, it would be attack

[proper furnace]

Doom special means you can keep the shield on an enemy and just constantly attack them to drop doom

[plain river]

Merciful ends whole thing is

That you drop it with deflect

that’s why you usually include on dash for ME

Even though it isn’t a requirement for the duo, it works really well because you just dashstrike into enemies to drop doom

But with zeus, since the special works independently of you

You can swap it around from strike to special

and drop doom with strikes or dashes

[vital night]

Can go either. The 3 basic builds are tidal dash into whatever, ME, and heart rend

[vital night]

@hushed saffron let’s move here

[hushed saffron]

So basically i choked the Styx rat mini boss, I think I could have saved at least 5s

And hades fight I knew it would be very close so I choked a bit too...

I could have bought a Meg summon in pre-Styx Charon's well, I should have

[vital night]

Real

I pretty much always buy megs

[proper furnace]

I mean at that time you are gonna think of a million timesaves

[hushed saffron]

For the rat mini boss, would have helped a lot

[vital night]

Yeah armor is tough to strip there

[hushed saffron]

Sure but those are obvious big mistakes :/

[hushed saffron]

Well I have breaching cross. But Gilga still... lol. + his moves surprised me, I kicked the air

I will probably try again tomorrow, I think it's a matter of time

So monday sub 8 Talos yesterday sub 8 Zag fists and today 8.01 Gilga 😭

I had this new objective of sub 8 all fists

[vital night]

Nice

[proper furnace]

You got this

[vital night]

Yeah first one trick

[hushed saffron]

And Dem is already sub 7 (my one and only sub 7)

[vital night]

My first sub 10 was on the fists 🙏

[hushed saffron]

Me too hh

My first everything was on the fists

And Im also trying to get sub 8 for 1 aspect of every weapon

Missing Beo and Hera

Beo I have big problems, PB is 8.36

Hera never tried yet

[waxen dragon]

I'll have to give it a try.

[waxen dragon]

I think whenever I play Zeus aspect I always play Zeus on special with jolted

[vital night]

More reliable

Even more reliable is aphro special with explosive return

[plain river]

Zeus is most reliable

[vital night]

You rely on getting jolted

[tight basin]

Isn't that less reliable bc of hammer odds lmao

[vital night]

Unmodded yeah

[tight basin]

Yeah they're not doing modded

[vital night]

Good point

[plain river]

Which is fairly consistent as is

like

the game already tilts status curses in your favour

[lapis sandal]

does it not?
It seems significantly faster, if not necessarily stronger, which combos with cursed's regen per hit well
and it seems like you can evade out of it more consistently

[plain river]

It’s effect

Afaik

Is purely to make it so you can hold down the attack button

With no actual bonus to atk speed

also flurry slash negatively affects you ability to dodge

since you can now automatically dstrike & lose iframes

[lapis sandal]

it does remove the slower third hit of the combo in favor of repeating the first two slashes, and I thought the rate was slightly faster

[plain river]

And tbh you just end up with a dps down compared to dash striking *2 -> special repeat

[lapis sandal]

I mean yes it's a dps loss but you trade off for consistent health regen as opposed to no health regen

[plain river]

it may be an atk spd up purely by way of replacing the standing strike combo

You trade off defensiveness for that hp regen

Since flurry is a defensive down

And cursed is a defensive down

[lapis sandal]

cursed's drawback is almost negligible in a boonless run, you have so much coin to throw at centaur hearts

[plain river]

flurry actively makes it easier to get hit by way of automatic dash strikes if you dash too soon after letting off the strrike button

so you lose your iframes

So

I’d rather not trade off my active defense of empty dashing

[lapis sandal]

in that case you're already overcommitting to the attack, but also you can just play less risky while you get health regen from skulls and potshots

[plain river]

The longer you draw out a fight the more chances you have to get hit and die though

so

[lapis sandal]

true, but the health regen can top you back off easily if you do get hit, so long as you're not taking a lot of hits in a row

[plain river]

I meam

this is low heat boonless yeah?

If td’s not on the clock the answer is literally anything goes

you can rely on cursed’s hp regen for when you get hit or you could just take a real dps hammer and play safer

[eager flint]

not sure the health regen would even result in a higher effective HP

given how much the hammer takes already

like, if you regen 100 hp but you had to lose 130 to take the hammer...

[lapis sandal]

it definitely does
I was able to regen WAY more hp than I would have had without it in my previous run, not even mentioning the sheer safety outside of the hades fight

[plain river]

I mean it’s more of “yeah you can regen but you can only take so many hits in between”

but like

You could also run dps safely

And

Have more hits available at a given time

while dealing with enemies better

So you need less defense because enemies are living for less

And you have less chances to mess up

[vagrant crane]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1028112977100017666/1222654510816559104/image.png?ex=661700bf&is=66048bbf&hm=dcdf8574a1aad53144547162709a7d6e4c50e5b012fb07f3d18db4118329003a&

It's the best weapon if you are a speedrunner. It has the best base stats, it hits the fastest, and default aspect gives you a ton of dodge chance. If you go for the aspect of demeter, you start one shotting most things. It's not miserable and garbage, it's mostly intended for experienced pc players.

[plain river]

“Best base stats” what does that even

Based on what metric

[eager flint]

ok jazz you're going for the low hanging fruit here

though I'll admit the sheer druning kroger effect or whatever it's called with r/hades is staggering

[plain river]

Duning kruger effect goescrazy in the Hades community

[eager flint]

I haven't seen it much in the discord

[plain river]

Top runner says hey I suck

Everyone of r/hades exists

like

What better example can you gvie for the effect

[eager flint]

but also jazz damn you should be able to talk about the game without looking for a fight

if I wanted to troll and bait r/hades I'd have written the exact same message as yours

[vagrant crane]

i mean getting into arguments is the entire point of reddit is it not

[eager flint]

no

I mean yes

but no

[plain river]

As far as I know

[proper furnace]

I just ignore people at this rate lmao

[lapis sandal]

the consideration is the only real challenge in low heat boonless comes from the bosses, unless you're sloppy in elysium or styx
and yeah higher dps means shorter fight and less opportunity to make mistakes, but also mistakes are far more punishing with no form of recovery
I guess for longtime or experienced players it might be nbd but I still get hit from time to time

[plain river]

Yes

[proper furnace]

I'd give my answer and just whatever happens happens

[plain river]

Tbh I’m coming from like

[eager flint]

I mean, mistakes are also more punishing with -max HP

[plain river]

Exclusively playing 32/40 heat for a bit

And

I’m more concerned about my average room

[eager flint]

we'd have a different conversation if cursed slash was only regen

[plain river]

So I may be biased

It’s not like you’re playjng lc4 anyways

You have 3dd’s and cthonic regen

[eager flint]

but when speaking about safety and defense, we can't ignore the huge HP penalty from the hammer

[plain river]

You have the ability to make mistakes on bosses by a huge margin

cthonic rgen is room to room I know

[eager flint]

not to mention if your goal is boonless you shouldn't play sword, but I assume you want to go sword boonless so it's a moot point

[lapis sandal]

the max hp loss is again almost negligible in a boonless run
you have so much coin from not buying boons and your biggest priority most of the time is demon hearts

er centaur hearts rather

[plain river]

If the concern is your ability to deal with bosses, regular max hp and 3 death defiances should hold you fine

[lapis sandal]

yeah going cursed slash in a high heat run is
not smart lol

[plain river]

that’s a huge amount of hp

Especially to play with when enemies are at like

My perception of max hp is like

Half ehp thnks to hl5

And enemies are 40% faster

So if I took thatoff

For a low heat boonless

Your regular max hp and desth defiances seems like a tremendous amount of ehp

[lapis sandal]

I mean for someone who plays 32 regularly this is probably a pretty easy run for the most part tbh
I've only done the one 32 and it took nearly two hours lmao

[plain river]

I uh

2 hours

That sounds painful

[lapis sandal]

#h1-victory-boasting message

[plain river]

I don’t know if I’ve had a single one 32+ over 21 minutes

[lapis sandal]

this is my only 32 so far lmao
I didn't go for being timed

[eager flint]

Yeah we could have guessed :p

[plain river]

It’s less about being timed and more about avoiding the more annoying heat pact options that aren’t “just pick up the pace” imo

[eager flint]

"I took 100 minutes on TD3 "

[eager flint]

isn't it %HP ? So you technically lose more HP if you have more maxHP overall ?

[plain river]

Mad respect

[plain river]

Yeah it is % based

If you would have 300 max hp after centaur hearts

You have like

120

[lapis sandal]

I mean yes, but you get far more hearts because you're avoiding boons

[vital night]

Also boonless is dangerous

[eager flint]

Like sure if you end up with 150 hp it's enough usually, but without cursed slash you'd have 350

[plain river]

So yeah you can spend all you want on hearts but they’re 2.5* less effective

[vital night]

Esp ely and dad

No deflect

[proper furnace]

Is still as shocking the 2nd time I see this

[vital night]

I could not clear boonless hesty

[eager flint]

I don't understand why having more HP removes the downside of cursed slash. It gives you more of a buffer, for sure, but it is just so much HP that you lose

[lapis sandal]

150 with 2hp per hit regen
that means 75 hits while damaged over the course of the entire run would make it worth it

[vital night]

But the damage itself takes so many hits to regen

That’s not how the game works

[eager flint]

nah, not over the entire run, given there are other sources of healing, and that some HP regen will end up being useless because it doesn't change things (if you win on 1HP or 100HP it's the same)

[worn solar]

Not really. Lower max hp means less healing from fountains or defiance

[eager flint]

Oh yeah

[plain river]

Hahahahaah

[vital night]

This too

[plain river]

What is

[eager flint]

forgot the healing was also max%

[plain river]

What is this

#h1-victory-boasting message

[lapis sandal]

true, but healing midfight is more valuable than healing between battles, especially when the only significant concern is boss damage

[plain river]

when your concern is only bosses

Just use death defiances with 2.5* more max hp then you would have with cursed slash

You have a massive chunk of max hp

and you cut it down by a massive amount just to heal by 2 every standing strike

[worn solar]

also sword standing strikes just suck in general

[eager flint]

yeah, if you played your runs exactly the same but without cursed slash, you might have done just as well or better. Or worse I guess, in truth I don't know. But I'm really not sold on cursed slash being the win factor.

btw you said "over the entire run" earlier, but if we only consider boss fights then cursed slash gets even worse

you do you, but I don't see how cursed slash would help much, if at all. I'd recommend you to try without it and see how it goes. I bet you'll be surprised.

[plain river]

idk I walk into dad fight with all 3 death defiances, max hp from fountain

It’s boonless I probably have

350 max hp

?

So

Roughly 825 max hp dd’s included

That’s a massive amount to lose to Hades

[tight basin]

i feel like it's a more reliable strategy to rely on clean dodges rather than flurry cursed slash lmao
not even considering hammer odds either, just like in general

[lapis sandal]

I mean maybe I'm slightly biased as well, because stubborn roots largely carried my 32
I might be slightly overvaluing hp regen
but also the ability to recover from mistakes is something worth consideration
boonless extreme dad is rough and takes a while so the idea is appealing

[eager flint]

so 400HP with cursed

[plain river]

on the other hand I could walk in with like 140 max hp and cursed flurry for a total hp oh

like

350

[tight basin]

you prob are overvaluing hp regen lmao

at least with stubborn roots you dont have to actually do anything tho it just does its thing

[plain river]

and yeah I can regen but am I regening the 500 some odd difference in total hp

[eager flint]

roots doesn't half your HP lol

[plain river]

in one hades fight

[plain river]

That’s 250 standing strikes

That’s years

When I could just take offensive sword hammers

[eager flint]

again, if cursed didn't have its downside, we'd be having a different conversation

[lapis sandal]

I mean 'don't get hit' is definitely the best strategy, but I've only beaten ex dad like 3 times so far lmao
I expect to take a few hits, esp when add phase starts

[eager flint]

Which is why you take max HP instead of halving it

[tight basin]

flurry cursed goes against "don't get hit" considering how flurry works

[eager flint]

yeah also that

[plain river]

The thing is, you’re walking in with like 500 total hp less then you would without cursed slash

[tight basin]

and also the 60% hp reduction so you can get like 2 tapped

[plain river]

Just hoping to regen some of it

[eager flint]

but I'm not even considering how much more dangerous the playstyle of cursed flurry is, I'm just comparing, with the exact same playstyle, the exact same moves, if cursed slash is still more HP than without. I don't think it is

[lapis sandal]

I mean that's also assuming you get there with full hp and defiances, which is very easy to do with cursed slash and harder without I would say

[plain river]

it’s

[eager flint]

is it now

[plain river]

just fine to do without

cthonic vitality is pretty cool

[eager flint]

Fountains are pretty pog

And you get one before dad

[plain river]

Offensive hammers put in leg work so I take less damage

Wells give me dd’s or hp regen buffs

Styx Fountain

[tight basin]

if you're finding it difficult to reach dad with 3 DDs then it's less about the hammers you have and more about needing cleaner gameplay

[plain river]

I’m finding it difficult to reach dad with 3 dds because I’m using stubborn defiance

[eager flint]

but also I don't understand whether the main issue of boonless is boss fights or not ?? Like you said it's boss fights, so in-fight regen is better, but then you have an issue with keeping health in between them, so between-fights regen should be good ??

[tight basin]

have you tried getting 2 chaos DDs

[plain river]

Uh

Chaos doesn’t like me

[eager flint]

mood

[plain river]

Always showinf me everything I don’t need

[lapis sandal]

I still haven't caught the rare chaos fish lol

[eager flint]

That's probably because I hate their shield aspect u_u

but it's not my fault that it sucks

[plain river]

Always tying roiling or enshrouded to what I do need

If I were chaos I would simply have a stronger aspect

whoever’s managing chaos’s pr team needs to be fired with having chaos shield as their one merch thing

[eager flint]

aspect of shackle

[lapis sandal]

I mean
styx is pretty annoying boonless
I definitely could take a few less hits, I'm still a fairly new player lol

[eager flint]

oh yeah ofc

[plain river]

everything’s more annoying boonless

I should do a boonless run

[eager flint]

But I still feel like the maths don't check out in cursed slash favor. Maybe that's why it's cursed ?

[tight basin]

it def doesnt

the only person who can make cursed slash work is retrash

[lapis sandal]

but cursed slash means over the entire run, mistakes are not a big deal
unless you get sloppy and make a bunch in succession

[plain river]

So does cthonic vitality and fountains and wells

[lapis sandal]

not to the same extent

[tight basin]

same could be said without cursed slash lmao

[plain river]

cursed slash reduces the amount of misrakes you can make at once

Since

[worn solar]

I mean big health bar means well and fountain healing is big too

[plain river]

You’re permanently closer to death

the highest your max hp can be is 60% less mistakes than you can make otherwise

[vital night]

Unless you’re RI4 LC4, mistakes are not permanent

[tight basin]

they're permanent if you die

[lapis sandal]

temporarily lol

I guess the real difference is
how many hits can you take over the course of the fight with regen vs without
if you're going into the final fight with no dd left cursed slash is more valuable for sure, but maybe the health restores from dd charges might make avoiding it better?

[tight basin]

ngl if you're going into the final fight with no DDs and with cursed slash, there's a decent chance you're getting 2 tapped lmfao

[lapis sandal]

cursed slash can easily top your health back off without much effort

[tight basin]

also cursed slash doesnt even work with dash strikes, which provide more dps, so it's not a great hammer

[lapis sandal]

esp at the beginning of hades

[plain river]

I mean

as far as

taking multiple hits at once

It really takes a while to get you back up

and also

You could just have 2.5 * more hp so losing it is less of an issue

[plain river]

and then you don’t have to put yourself in the sticky situation that is sword standing strikes

[eager flint]

can easily top gets your health back to 40%

actually, isn't that one dionysus boon just cursed slash but without needing to work for it ?

[lapis sandal]

what's a boon

[plain river]

…what

[lapis sandal]

we're doing boonless

[plain river]

There isn’t a dio boon for that

There’s stubborn defiance lite and fountains full heal

and that’s it

[eager flint]

yeah, stubborn defiance lite

isn't it cursed slash without the effort ?

now that I think about it

[proper furnace]

do you mean the "if under x hp, recover to Y"

[plain river]

Yeah

Since

[tight basin]

stubborn defiance lite with -hp on atk chaos curses are so great

[eager flint]

when we think about in between fights

[plain river]

If you end an encounter in cursed slash range

You get put back to cursed slash range

while still having the massive max hp for fountains

[lapis sandal]

afterparty is much worse than cursed regen lol

[plain river]

and death defiances

For the room to room it does the same job

Mid combat it won’t

But room to room it’s essentially the same thjng

[lapis sandal]

afterparty is insanely weak compared to cursed slash regen

[tight basin]

at least after party doesnt cut your hp by 60% lol

[plain river]

You always end at atleast 30-36-42% of your max hp… which is where cursed slash would cut your max hp to

so

For the room to room it is essentially the same as your top up

But without -60% hp

[eager flint]

how ? it helps you just as much to get to dad with as much HP as you can

[plain river]

and

it’s hard to be insanely weak compared to -60% hp for pity regen on the worst part of swords moveset

Especially when one is a misc boon

And the other is one of 2 hammers you’ll get aside from anvil

[lapis sandal]

cursed slash has no hp cap - at all times you can bring your hp back to full
afterparty only is relevant at low hp, and might save you a hit or two of health per room
at low heat boonless the regular rooms are such low threats it's almost never a factor

[tight basin]

then why is getting through styx with 3 DDs and full hp a problem lol

[lapis sandal]

and if you do take a hit or two, you would be in cursed regen range but not afterparty

[plain river]

“Back to full” is the same place as where afterparty is hitting

sincd your full is regular swords 40% hp

[lapis sandal]

with cursed slash? It's not
without it? there's only one consistent source if hp regen in styx and it isn't a full restore

[plain river]

There are 2 consistent hp regen sources

[vagrant crane]

cursed slash doesnt work on dash strikes

[plain river]

cthonic vitality and fountain

[vagrant crane]

therefore its completely useless

[plain river]

[tight basin]

i mean regular rooms aren't really a threat lmao so the regen there isn't useful

[lapis sandal]

hp only matters if you get hit
therefore it's completely useless

[tight basin]

also if you're consistently getting hit in every room, that prob means you're not ready for boonless em4 yet tbh

[vagrant crane]

wat

[plain river]

Fountains are also a good chunk of restore

[vagrant crane]

sword is completely unusable garbage and not worth being played without dash strikes

[plain river]

I know it’s not a full restore but it doesn’t need to be a full rsstore

[vagrant crane]

if you are forced to standing strike to benefit from a hammer, the hammer is useless

[plain river]

Jazz you’rd getting more unhinged by the day

R u

Ok

[vagrant crane]

im saying true things

[eager flint]

even if it's true you're saying them in the most obnoxious way possible

[plain river]

You’re saying ~true~ things in a very aggressive in your face manner that no one appreciates

[vagrant crane]

if cursed slash took away 0% hp it would still not be a good hammer

[lapis sandal]

I mean I got to p3 dad last attempt
unfortunately couldn't purge boons at the end so it wasn't completely boonless, but I'm definitely within striking range

[vagrant crane]

idk i want to be summary and concise and not argue on tangential things

so i am summary and concise

[plain river]

I get the conciseness

But people just get alienated & jaded

[tight basin]

you could also do that in a less aggressive tone

[eager flint]

what ? Since when does cursed slash not have a HP cap ? Are you playing on some secret version of the game where it doesn't give your -60% hp ?

[vagrant crane]

cause the conversation had drifted to comparing and stuff which is not really relevant

cursed slash is useless because it does not work on dash strikes

its pretty shrimple

[eager flint]

yeah yeah, think we're doing a no dash strike challenge run (that sounds so painful damn)

[vagrant crane]

the 58 heat td0 zagsword in question

[plain river]

Yeah but not everybody starts on “dash strike gud island” so I’m trying to explain why it’s bad even when you’re standing striking

[vagrant crane]

i dont think its necessarily that bad if you're for some reason standing striking

like the main reason its so looked down upon is dash striking

if someone is playing in a horrendously suboptimal way it changes how things work

[plain river]

-60% is a pretty steep drop regardless of how you look at it

[eager flint]

jazz we've been talking why it is necessarily that bad for like an hour

[plain river]

And it’s not like this is lc4

You have other hp regen options

Not mid-fight regen options but with regular max hp you’re a tank

[lapis sandal]

'weapon or attack is useless because it's sub optimal' is a terrible take
reminds me of mmo parsers
we're not talking about minmaxing for 64 heat

[vagrant crane]

its not just suboptimal

its sub usable

[lapis sandal]

it does damage
it's useable

[plain river]

We are however talkimg about how viable of a pick this is in this situation

Cursed slash does not deal damage

Sword does

big difference

[potent tree]

Pink parse or bust!

[vagrant crane]

cursed slash detracts from your damage output by a lot

if you try to benefit from it

[plain river]

You miss an offensive sword hammer and need to standing strike

[lapis sandal]

we're talking about sustain of hp pool vs health regen in surviving ex4 boonless
damage doesn't matter if you die, survival is the priority

besides, being in the fight longer will help build consistency

[plain river]

You’re a tank without cursed slash, so you take an offensive hammer t

[vagrant crane]

damage does matter

if you deal more damage

then u win faster

and can take less damage

[plain river]

Damage ends fights quicker so yoh need less defense

so cursed slash has less value

[lapis sandal]

i think you missed the 'if you die' part

[plain river]

offense is defense

[vagrant crane]

ok but dont die

[plain river]

“If you die” you’re a tank

You have

100% max hp

And you’re just buying hearts and taking hearts

[lapis sandal]

the problem being
hades chunks health with each hit

[plain river]

and

[lapis sandal]

like 40 damage

[plain river]

You have upwards of 800 total ohp

[tight basin]

which is why the -60% hp isn't good lol

[plain river]

Mfw when I need to hit 20 standing strikes to recover from 1 hades blow

You know how long that takes? Long enough for more mistakes

[plain river]

Taking 40 like once or twice isn’t a huge sweat

but it is when you have 350 max hp instead

which you do when you have cursed slash

And you fight lasts longer thanks to worse damage so you have higher odds of taking that 40 multiple times

[lapis sandal]

I mean the best strategy for either plan is obviously 'don't get hit'
I'm just saying that cursed/flurry seems like it can keep you in the fight longer than not

[eager flint]

And we're saying it doesn't lol

[plain river]

…let me put it this way

Using cursed and flurry

[tight basin]

the not-cursed slash strategy is more like
deal more damage than he can deal to you lmao

[plain river]

Will keep you in the fight for longer.

[eager flint]

I feel like you're tunnel visioning on the HP regen and forgetting the -HP%

[plain river]

because you have no damage on boonless

And took 2 not dps hammers