h2-builds-and-combat

[safe kettle]

1170

my omega did 250k total damage

[safe kettle]

oh my god i managed to beat zag in region one

[fierce citrus]

is stabbing rush good at all?

[flint widget]

ok time to grind 65 surface again

[fierce citrus]

good luck

stll stuck on 55 lol

[broken spoke]

Well if you get those sword duo boon it could be good i guess?

[flint widget]

judgment sucks so much ass on high fear

[rare ermine]

reddie i cant do it

[flint widget]

even when the perfect build appears i can still get screwed over by bad judgment pulls aka no global dmg via furies and orig or safety via lovers and dds

[rare ermine]

i cant go higher than 50

this is my limit

[fierce citrus]

23 runs in ive gotten to typhon 4 times now

[safe kettle]

ok i beat zag but ALMOST died to rivals hecate after

[fierce citrus]

still haven't won todays the day (cope)

[safe kettle]

i got the worst hecate too

the 6fold moonbeam is by far the worst imo

trying to not get hit by the ball in that phase is awful

[rare ermine]

tbf im only using the 'weaker' aspects like than, hel but even my anubis runs i just cant go higher than 50

[fierce citrus]

yea thats probably why im using moros so i got an advantage

[flint widget]

nah the worst pattern is the one where she starts sending random shi outta nowhere

[fierce citrus]

yea 100 percent

[flint widget]

at least lunar ray is predictable

[rare ermine]

once i've cleared this hel sf runs i'll try eos on >50f but after that my limit is actually just 50 hard cap

[flint widget]

what kinda vows are u running that 50 fear is the limit

[rare ermine]

the standard + 2 pain

[flint widget]

wdym the standard

[past salmon]

hmmm
doubt

[safe kettle]

it's fine in the first phase transition but dodging the ball while moonbeams rotate is so awful

[flint widget]

not for me tho

[rare ermine]

like every other vow active except horde pain grit

[fierce citrus]

i just realised out of all my 23 runs so far i haven't gotten a single grave thirst on torches yet

[flint widget]

well max scars is probably the reason

[fierce citrus]

turn return off and put max grit and you got it easy trust (im joking)

[safe kettle]

return is weird

[fierce citrus]

honestly max grit isent even to hard

[safe kettle]

like it's free except on super shortrange weapons

[fierce citrus]

agreed

[flint widget]

return is basically free fear unless ur struggling on timer tbh

[fierce citrus]

i just have no enjoyment when playing return rn im on 55 fear and return is off

[safe kettle]

also it's awful in the house of hades when the stupid hourglasses die way offscreen

and you dont even realise they dropped a return

[fierce citrus]

yea but its boring

[rare ermine]

https://h2crossroads.pages.dev/FearCalculator/?vows=WzMsMCwyLDYsMCwzLDIsNSwwLDIsMiwzLDYsMCwyLDIsMTJd

[flint widget]

so what? free fear is free fear

[fierce citrus]

id reccomend to everyone to turn return on but id never turn it on

[safe kettle]

return is annoying

[fierce citrus]

if i aint having fun i aint using it lol

[flint widget]

i think you should turn pain off tbh

[safe kettle]

but it doesnt really make the run harder

[fierce citrus]

man turn grit on and pain off

[rare ermine]

but but but i die to timer

[flint widget]

turn scars up to 2 and grit to 1

[fierce citrus]

https://h2crossroads.pages.dev/FearCalculator/?vows=WzMsMywyLDYsMywzLDAsNSwyLDEsMiwzLDYsMCwyLDIsMTJd

[safe kettle]

i will say return is completely free except when you go timer 3

[fierce citrus]

this is what im running for 55

[flint widget]

also my 55 fear setup looks like this: https://h2crossroads.pages.dev/FearCalculator/?vows=WzEsMCwyLDYsMiwzLDIsNSwyLDIsMiwzLDYsMCwyLDIsMTJd

[fierce citrus]

you get used to it

is grit really that annoying

[safe kettle]

is grit the increased hp?

[fierce citrus]

yea

[rare ermine]

well its better than hordes

[flint widget]

it makes fights longer which unless ur at a fight ur bad at, its fine

[safe kettle]

hordes is like fine until olympus

and then hordes feels awful

in underworld hordes is FREEE

[flint widget]

olympus is the time slog region

[fierce citrus]

honstly i only struggle with hordes in olympus against the little robots that shoot for 50

[flint widget]

except erebus

[fierce citrus]

ik they shoot for like 15 but it feels like 50

[safe kettle]

also more of those annoying big robots that cant die

those are my nemesis

[fierce citrus]

yea fair

[rare ermine]

yeah im doing sf runs cuz i just casted disintegration of monstrosity so i gotta go kill typhon

[fierce citrus]

if they dont have armour im fine against them majority of the times

[fierce citrus]

i still gotta replay the story

[rare ermine]

grinding my high fears during story. not a single zag contract to be seen

[edgy nacelle]

theeeere we go, Hel run done
too many false starts, kept trying to do something other than splash/scorch 😔 but no luck
hi all did I miss anything fun

[flint widget]

well its cuz ur grinding story

[flint widget]

nothing, just fear talk

[rare ermine]

better this way, so i dont get overconfident and int to zag

[safe kettle]

zag logic:
region 1 you're extremely brave and your build is already really good
region 2 if you have a good build it's quite doable
region 3 pretty free

[edgy nacelle]

or region 1: for some reason you're playing with timer off and you have an aspect which can be played absurdly safely and passively lol, even if it's still weak

[fierce citrus]

region 2 55 fear zag was not doable 😭

with an amazing build as well

lowkey thought id be able to do it

[rare ermine]

timer 3 1st region zag is not doable

[safe kettle]

tbh 55 fear changes the logic a lot

[rare ermine]

unless you can no hit hecate and just tank the timer chip

[safe kettle]

even then it's quite risky cause 1 mistake and he takes most of your health bar

[fierce citrus]

had two duos and good rarity stuff i didnt think it would be that hard

[safe kettle]

especially if you run the vow that speeds enemies up that fight looks nightmareish

[fierce citrus]

omg i dont play on uw so i dont have to deal with charydbis now ive had to go against him 3 runs in a row in the surface

[edgy nacelle]

also yeah, I'd mostly agree with this
at least not with other vows that kill timer on, like if you have no grit, wards, hordes, forfeit, or debt on then like. sure, can prob outpace timer 3
but with all that, erebus timer suuucks and your build is unlikely to be very strong by midshop

[fierce citrus]

what am i meant to do against his balls man

i had heroic dash as well from hermes

they do 15 damage and theres 200 of them

[edgy nacelle]

start at one side then begin calmly sprinting to the other around the outer rim once they get close to you and the 50% health attack becomes fairly free

[rare ermine]

overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer
you thought zag was free? get sent back to the crossroads

[fierce citrus]

ill try that next time (if theres a next time im gonna accidentally break my mouse)

[edgy nacelle]

you need to i-frame through some of them at the other end, but tbh I think trying to dash through them the whole time is playing on EXTRA hard mode, so that specific hermes boon isn't rly that useful 😅
I'd rather have dem gales or like.... idk, hard target/enfeeblement if anything

[edgy nacelle]

someone mentioned it the other day and I tried it and it felt very very nice, I was kinda making it up before then

[fierce citrus]

the only reason i beat him the other two times is cause i wouldve had icarus right before give me 100 armour

[edgy nacelle]

(also hm. very sleepy but I'm so close to being done w my 40s I almost wanna just knock them out. 2 more to go)

[safe kettle]

oh i just realised

[fierce citrus]

im tired as well like half asleep lemme run another 55 fear game

[safe kettle]

athena trinket kills fates whim

[rare ermine]

demeter gales premium defensive boon for bullet hell

[safe kettle]

good to know

[edgy nacelle]

lmao
I mean hey, my successful 62 fear was my first try on a new aspect at 4am 🤝 sometimes it just works

[fierce citrus]

also im suprised no ones said anything to melonie for not beating typhon or chronos the past 24 nights now

[fierce citrus]

damn you built different

[safe kettle]

yeah demeter sprint is so insane for projectiles

[edgy nacelle]

insomnia-core
also aspect of charon randomly blessed on my account, beat my speedrun record first couple tries too??

also I think p3 cramps clicked finally
I had an awful erebus but gramps usually took me out, and that time I actually had a DD left for once lol

[fierce citrus]

i got my highest speed record as well like 7 minutes in the uw (i was using that bug that makes the ring 10 times bigger)

but still felt good

[edgy nacelle]

it's weirdly good for speeds!! also I'm not good enough at medea to do speeds with the actual speedrun meta weapon lol

but ok, hm. Pan first then Medea, I think, speaking of medea...

what are you running 55s with again?

[fierce citrus]

moros

[fierce citrus]

i was very tempted to run medea like i dont love it but its fun to play here and there

and its the best aspect in the game

[edgy nacelle]

ooooh moros is nice
I haven't tried it past 40 ish (yet) but I love it

[fierce citrus]

i did 50 fear on my first try

45 two tries

now 55 25th run rn and still not clicking

[edgy nacelle]

above 50 starts to get crazy... which vows feel like the biggest issues rn?

[fierce citrus]

im so dumb though idk why i play so aggressive against typhon like i can win but then i decide lemme stay right next to him and get hit by 3 moves and i die

[fierce citrus]

my stupidity

but actullay idek

[edgy nacelle]

which are new vs 50?

[fierce citrus]

like i know its doable i just have to lock in

[fierce citrus]

debt two scars

i think it was those

[edgy nacelle]

ah yeah
debt is also more impactful than you'd think if you add it late, I think
are you using boatman, and are you in UW?

[fierce citrus]

boatman surface

im considering changing to that legendary one the one that buffs the chances of higher rarity but i dont think ima do it

[edgy nacelle]

ooh surface. I have less advice for surface but also I think there's more of an argument for excellence there

no midshop in ephyra and you aren't taking side rooms for timer (usually), so by the time you realisitcally need lots of money it's region 2 and you can take chrolex and have plenty 🤷

[fierce citrus]

yea alot more boons and having more of a chance for a leg

[fierce citrus]

yea

ill swap after this run then

but once i get to debt 2 should i still be running excellence

[edgy nacelle]

🤷 again ik less about surface
for underworld I think boatman is very close to mandatory lol just because of how sucky erebus is, you rly want a midshop boon. surface I say experiment, and see what feels good

[fierce citrus]

alright will do thanks

damn infernal trove just dropped a nectar

never had that happen

[safe kettle]

the timer chests?

[fierce citrus]

yea

[safe kettle]

wtf?

[fierce citrus]

artificer peaked with that

gave me extra life

[edgy nacelle]

it's rare as hell but fun when it happens

[fierce citrus]

i almost clicked it without artificer because i had no clue

[safe kettle]

i just started using artificer and it's hard to get into rerolling the stuff

especially when it hasnt been THAAAT long since i unlocked minor finds giving you run buffs

[fierce citrus]

yea its pretty good in surface cause on rift you barely get major rewards

cause in ephyra you get 7-8 major rewards in a row

[flint widget]

also good for underworld cuz erebus has a shi tonna minor rewards

fields has a boatload of them scattered about so i usually equip piece in fields

[fierce citrus]

omg circe removed frenzy i feel like im playing in slow motion lol

[fierce citrus]

yea i started doing that after abit

can circe take vow of rivals?

[flint widget]

dont think so, its coded in the game i think

[safe kettle]

i'm trying everything i can to never turn on frenzy

[fierce citrus]

i turned on frenzy the second i got the chance

once you get used to it its free fear

[safe kettle]

i played too much game without frenzy and i'm too old to completely relearn the whole game

like i can do the fear requirements wtihout frenzy and i dont intend to do high fear stuff

[fierce citrus]

if you dont wanna do high fear then yea fair dw about it

honstly makes the game funner for me though

like if im just doing a "fun run" i turn on frenzy 2 rivals 3 (uw) rivals 4 (sufrace) and return 2

[flint widget]

u said u find return to be unfun before

[rain wagon]

Fun run and return 2 in the same sentence...

[flint widget]

whats with the switchup lmao

[fierce citrus]

omg not return

sorry lmao the other one

menace

never return id die if return went on

[rain wagon]

That makes more sense

[flint widget]

holyyyyyyy game just gave me gigaros and dual moonshot start on 65 surface, time to lock in

[fierce citrus]

going onto prom rivals on 80 hp wish me luck

[rain wagon]

Gl, both of you

[edgy nacelle]

ok time to go to bed
pan surface, "ooh scorch specials room 1, now if I can just get pyro techni-" no pyro and I'm right before prom with a timer issue 😔 and no trick knives or anything either
sleepy af so that's my sign to log off for the night

40f runs done tomorrow tho for sure

[fierce citrus]

OMGGGG

i ran into the spear from the spawnlings prom was one tap

[fierce citrus]

i got special posiden hopping for slippery slope for the next two regions he didnt show

[edgy nacelle]

noooo gah so close...

[fierce citrus]

and ares duo that make wave hit twice didnt feel like showing

that wouldve been a wild win 80 hp prom rivals

ok well im done for today cant wait for another day of fails tomorrow

[edgy nacelle]

you still learn stuff each attempt tho I think!!

idk, maybe we'll both have better luck tomorrow lol, my runs today were garbage tbh

[fierce citrus]

24 runs the only thing i learn is olympus is bull and never gives mid shop dino or fountain

[edgy nacelle]

and then I think I'm back to 62s so 🙃 I'll be struggling with you

[fierce citrus]

yea had meh runs today as well hopefully tommrow we cook

[fierce citrus]

you a tank for 62 i cant imagine how long 60s gonna take for me

just put excellence so i dont forgot

[edgy nacelle]

today was annoying since my goal was 40 fear fun runs and the game said "lmao no fun for you"
also ngl once you're done with 55 I'd recommend just going all the way to 62

[fierce citrus]

62 is gonna be judgment

im not turning return on

never

[edgy nacelle]

damn really? I support the decision but also I feel like return is... maybe the only vow which has never cost me a run 💀

[fierce citrus]

its so annoying though like its so ugh idk how to explain it

the amount of hate i have for return shouldnt be this much

like i play other games and they have a simillar mechanic like return and i dont mind it much but in hades 2 its just annoying

[edgy nacelle]

oh huh. that really confuses me then, cause I feel like the reason I'm chill w return is that I've dealt with something similar in other games

like. to be clear, valid hate, I hate random stuff in games even if I have no good reason

[fierce citrus]

nah ive played games with a similar mechanaic i cant think of them on the top of my head but i know i have it just pisses me off in hades

[edgy nacelle]

just curious to try to figure out why it gets under your skin in hades specifically

[fierce citrus]

if it makes a game boring for me instant hate

[edgy nacelle]

I think for me it's usually a gameplay feel thing
like ionic/tranquil gain are instant hates for me, and it's literally just "they feel bad" (even tho there are more valid reasons to hate them)

[fierce citrus]

idk im trynna to answer it as well lol

[fierce citrus]

ionic gain my beloved stand back ill protect you

[edgy nacelle]

liking ionic gain but hating return is wild to me since I feel like they're really similar gameplay only ionic makes you press a button lol
ig the feeling of an enemy respawning just sucks? idk

[fierce citrus]

i dont mind it tbh id pick it 10 times more if you didnt have to click it to get it but if ive gotten like 300+ magik id use it

but ive never used it in high fear because 300+ magik just dont happen

[edgy nacelle]

also yeah for me it's "you have to click a button you can normally ignore" that just bugs me, if I could dash through it or w/e it'd be fine

[fierce citrus]

i think returns just a more constant thing

[edgy nacelle]

I think. hm, I mean my context for return is the optional mechanic in Transistor which iirc was just "return but it's a 100% chance for every enemy," if I'm remembering right
so I'm very used to how SGG specifically does that mechanic

[fierce citrus]

and i only ever used it when i had alot of magik on wepons that dont use lots of magik so id only press it twice in a boss fight or something

[edgy nacelle]

ah yeah idm ionic gain on low or no magick weapons
just annoys me on torches/shiva/charon and such when I actually need to use it on cooldown

[fierce citrus]

is transitior another ssg game?

[edgy nacelle]

yup! my favorite non-hades game of theirs by far

[fierce citrus]

yea i wouldnt use it for magik heavy aspects

[edgy nacelle]

it's... odd. very story driven, great soundtrack (duh), and then the gameplay is like. half turn based, almost? hard to explain

[fierce citrus]

ive never tried any of there othet games

and probably wont for a while ive gotten like 10 games lined up and my foots starting to recover after my operation so works creeping up soon

[edgy nacelle]

bastion is their first game and is very much like.... "hades-feeling combat but slower and without the boon system," and a one-off story. the bow is 1:1 the hades 1 bow, even
transistor has something very similar to the hades boon system imo, only without rng, but then the feel of moment to moment combat is WAY different since... semi-turn based
pyre idk, I haven't finished it, it's the odd one out it's kinda unique

[fierce citrus]

see another thing i have is turned base the only turned base game ill play is pokemon but any other game that uses turn base is so boring for me

[fierce citrus]

damn they got 3 other games

[edgy nacelle]

with transistor it's like. once every X seconds you get the ability to pause combat and tactically plan a certain number of moves, which your character will rapidly carry out over like 1-2 seconds, and then while that ability is on cooldown you need to actually dodge and fight in real time

[fierce citrus]

ill look at there steam pages tomorrow to tired rn

[edgy nacelle]

so it's not quite turn based, but you get a "turn" now and then to rapidly dish out damage and be strategic, set up combos etc 🤷 idk, it's neat but some ppl bounce off of it
idt turn based is rly accurate it's just the closest phrase I can think of

[fierce citrus]

that lowkey sound fun as hell

[edgy nacelle]

it's COOL. I've never played anything quite like it lol?

but some ppl don't click with it for sure
idk, lmk if you check it out ever, after other to-play games are done

but also, I do need to go to sleep now lol, so. take care and good luck w 55s tomorrow!!

[trail fern]

Hey all, I'm doing a Circe run and just finished erebus with Zeus keepsake - I've got storm ring, and a couple of hera boons - what keepsake should I choose for oceanus?

[flint widget]

fig it

[fierce citrus]

i just checked out the trailer it looks like a lofi type hades

[clever drum]

Fan to have more Hera and then hopefully King's Ransom it and go full Zeus Cast

[trail fern]

Sounds good - I've already got a hitch attack so that helps, but should I try fit anything else in particular or just as much hera as I can?

[edgy nacelle]

you'll need hera sprint or gain to open up the duo boon with zeus—which, heads up in advance, will remove all your hera boons to level up your zeus boons a lot
hera is also just good in general, and extended family will be nice for your cast
if possible, aim to get double strike from zeus before you get king's ransom (assuming you get offered it at all)

[silent crow]

i like this going to sleep thing

[edgy nacelle]

😔

[trail fern]

I'll give it a shot, thanks!

[silent crow]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/940930772326547506/1166413809049669703/-2d41a16db20ac4b5.gif

[edgy nacelle]

I peddle lies abt my sleep schedule, often and with little remorse....
goodnight fr now (probably maybe)

[fierce citrus]

Yea your 100 percent still awake

[indigo coyote]

regarding to aspect of Persephone, the sprouted effect can be trigger by any damaging boons or only from special?

[digital juniper]

any olympian damage

could be attack boon, special boon, cast etc

[indigo coyote]

i feel like it's not always sprouted tho, does it have a colddown?

[digital juniper]

there’s a meter in the bottom left that shows what % of the way you are to full sprouted

it’s 2000 olympian damage to get it to full for a total of +2 seconds to your omega special

[flint widget]

YO WHAT

I SWITCHED TO PAN AFTER SOME MISERABLE 65 FEAR SURFACE ATTEMPTS WITH MEL STAFF AND CIRCE AND I GOT IT FIRST TRY

OH MY GOD ITS OVER

65 FEAR SURFACE DONE!

[vernal quiver]

Maybe knives are best weapon after all

[flint widget]

(with tk)

[vernal quiver]

A 65 clear is still a 65 clear 😌

[junior trail]

respect halved 🥀

[flint widget]

should've clarified i was talking about pan

pan want tk to win high fear

[vernal quiver]

Would mel staff have been any better 🥀

Tk pan and mel staff are both free asf given the right setup

[flint widget]

all the other blades are perfectly fine without tk

[solar iris]

wait what build am i expected to do with the Aspect of Nyx?

[opal pecan]

Expected by whom and why do you sound so distressed and surprised

[solar iris]

Like okay i run over people to get Nightspawn and then my NORMAL attack and special are split. like okay what then? im supposed to spam only normal and not omega attacks?

[opal pecan]

Do you usually go around spamming only omega attacks?

[ornate frost]

Yes, the general flow of Nyx is omega dash into regular attack/special spam

[junior trail]

nyx has good cc especially with shimmering, nightspawn special spam goes hard

[opal pecan]

To be clear, regular attack/special is also normal for other (non-hidden aspect) coats to spam, so I'm just confused by the confusion

[ornate frost]

I’d say it’s half-and-half. Mel Coat and Nyx are typically regular attack-focused. Shiva is pretty much entirely omegas. And then Selene isn’t technically tied to omegas but it is tied to heavy hex usage, and you gotta charge the hex somehow so tend to use a fair amount of omegas on that aspect too.

[opal pecan]

What I mean is the normal vs omega thing, not attacks vs specials. Also, I specified non-hidden aspect; Shiva is the hidden aspect.

[sage flame]

skyfall does gives a status that increases omega damage

[solar iris]

unless it's the twin blades and the axe, yes

[opal pecan]

Ironically, it's the axe that spams omega attacks for one of the playstyles 😆 But yeah, many of the weapons I would say are not reliant on spamming omega moves.

[sage flame]

before shiva existed, I think the biggest damage number screenshots I saw were from selene coat oattack with crit, grievous, globals and the proper hammer (world collider or something?)

[opal pecan]

World Collider!

[solar iris]

What I mean is that I never bothered using any normal attacks/specials at all, it's normall all Omegas

i use Axe normals only if im confident with my sweeps

[ornate frost]

I think as a whole there’s a pretty reasonable balance between omega and non-omega focused aspects across the weapons. Every weapon has at least one aspect that doesn’t care about omegas at all and at least one that’s pretty omega-heavy, and then everything in between, which is nice

[ornate frost]

This is a bit surprising, since I don’t think using omegas heavily is common for Mel coat (which is the baseline I assume you’re comparing to)

[opal pecan]

It's perfectly fine to spam omega moves all the time if that's what floats your boat, and maybe that just means Nyx aint gonna be your cup of tea, but yeah, "all omega all the time" isn't the intent

They put in multiple pieces of kit for a reason 🫡

[ornate frost]

They’ll probably love Shiva though, so something to look forward to

[solar iris]

no it's fine im just surprised. i'll try to experiment aspect of nyx and its normal-spam playstyle then

[hollow stag]

Zeus is so good.

He's even better on fast attacking weapons. Better than Poseidon Attack sometimes.

[harsh prism]

I enjoy Mel coat o.special spam with the right setup

macross missiles

[solar iris]

do you guys have any tips to deal with the upgraded Scylla fight easier? i get very overwhelmed with so many projectiles it feels like ihave nowhere else to dodge

[vernal quiver]

theres a couple small things you can do, first if you go straight to the bottom corner you can bait scylla out away from the drummer so its less hectic there. after that your main direction should be kill the drummer asap, and any moment where you cant hit the drummer cuz the water spouts you can target the charybdis tentacles next to them

after that its just being patient and cleaning up anything leftover, phase2 you can follow a similar idea, kill drummer, kill any obnoxious tentacles, then just clean up

[solar iris]

I see... yeah that's my problem,, my first priority is to get Roxy first, the problem is doing that while juggling Scylle, Jetty, and all of Charybdis' legs

[vernal quiver]

it is a boss where part of learning it is either dps rotations to get kills faster and just being aware of as many things as you can since theres just so much going on 😭 its not a fight youll do hitless easily at all unless your dps is insane

[solar iris]

in that case, the patience part is probably the hardest lmao

[vernal quiver]

but yeah phase1 bait scylla away then clear out drummer and some tentacles then just clean up :D learning i could bait scylla away made the fight wayyyyy more consistent and less chaotic on its own

[vernal quiver]

yeah as long as you arent playing super high fear where timer is actually an issue dont be afraid to just take it slow

[signal coral]

first priority is killing a couple tentacles to give yourself room to dodge

tentacles also have the least amount of hp by far so its easy to do so

its a hard fight but knowing safe zones and practice helps

generally in phase 1 people run towards charibdys at the start to dodge the set roxy pattern and scylla's clam dash, and then you start working your way from there

in phase 2 people generally start by killing the tentacle near roxy so that you have a safe place to stand that can hit roxy but is not in the water jet zone

[opal pecan]

Bit of a theme with a lot of Rivals, huh? 😆

[vernal quiver]

id say cerb, eris, and poly are all really easy, just scylla, prom, typhon, and chronos have so much happening 😔

[bronze flax]

Wait, is the wiki correct on this? Does Sky Fall have less blue/purple updates than the other hexes?

[opal pecan]

Hm, you can't Full Moon it, I suppose?

[solar iris]

im a little scared to do Level 3 of Vow of Rivals

I think i'll do it when I can do at least 3 runs fighting KISScylla without losing a single DD

[opal pecan]

I count five possible purple/blue upgrade nodes and then the godsent based on the Codex ftr

[ornate frost]

I honestly think Rivals Cerb is easier than Rivals Scylla, and Rivals Prometheus is not a huge jump either, you’ll be fine

[opal pecan]

I definitely think Rivals Prom is less of a mindscrew than Rivals Scylla (and I am speaking as someone who is not good at this game, so you can trust this evaluation 🫡 )

[vernal quiver]

yeah cerb isnt bad at all and prom takes a bit to get used to imo since you cant just flail on him like you normally can but its not too too bad

[bronze flax]

I think I probably explained it poorly

Sky Fall has Prism and Cascade as possible Sublime upgrades
Dark Side has Sanctity, Resonance and Splendor, but then I checked and some hexes have also only 2 options so it's not just Sky Fall

So... My bad

[solar iris]

yeah I think the main reason why i get screwed over so badly with Scylla is mainly bc there's too many factors that i should pay attention to

like at least with Prom and Cerb i am only handling 1 person (2 if you count Aetos)

[solar iris]

Is his Memory Game Attack in Rivals version normal as ever?

[ornate frost]

Yes

[vernal quiver]

yeah its the same

[ornate frost]

Though there is more to keep track of, technically

[bronze flax]

It is fair, with Unrivaled Scylla you have to pay attention to Scylla, Jetty, Roxy, 6 tentacles, projectiles appearing from nowhere, and you also have to singalone the themes... Please tell me I'm not the only one who does that

[solar iris]

because i've just learned to memorize it like an One-Time Code and i'd hate it if it's suddenly 5-8 instead of the usual 3-5

[bronze flax]

But yeah, Rivals Scylla has a lot going on

[ornate frost]

Yes that method is still fine

[solar iris]

i was already spoiled that Heracles will join the fight, so i assume that while i'm memorizing, Heracle will chase me around?

[opal pecan]

Yes, but he slow

[ornate frost]

Depends! Sometimes I kill Herc before memory game lol

[solar iris]

i was spoiled because someone in another server can't keep their mouth shut about muscular men

[ornate frost]

But most of the time yes you’ll be doing memory game while you avoid Herc (or while DPSing him if you’re confident)

[solar iris]

oh. You can beat up Heracles??

[solar iris]

"oh did you know about heracles and prometheus? i do. because they're... in family-friendly terms, godly muscular beautiful men"

[ornate frost]

Yeah so about the “only handling 1” part 😅

[solar iris]

Yeah guess I also have to beat up Heracles...

[ornate frost]

It’s honestly not as intimidating as it sounds though; Prom himself is mostly the same actually

[solar iris]

that's comforting to hear

whew

okay i'll turn on level 3 next weekend

[opal pecan]

Heracles isn't as jumpy as Prom and he's a big fella, so it's honestly very idk. Not "helpful" exactly, but "less annoying than this could have been"

"Relatively straightforward to keep an eye out on"

[solar iris]

i'll be honest i was expecting him to do how Cerberus would slap their paws on the ground and do this big circle dmg

[opal pecan]

He can do big damage yeah but he telegraphs it

[signal coral]

rivals prom is pretty bad on high fear
the fight has a LOT of hp and forced phase transitions that waste a lot of time so theres a lot of timer pressure there

and if you try and go fast you can eat a lot of damage

[bronze flax]

At the start I was a bit scared of Heracles when Prom started the fire waves, because he could get me while trying to dodge it, but even then, it's not that bad

[vernal quiver]

i hate prom on my high fear runs >->

although on my 62f clear i didnt even drop lovers so i think im learning something at least

[solar iris]

i think im at Fear 12 rn

[opal pecan]

That actually makes me curious again about a question I was thinking of earlier -- is there a list anywhere of the minimum amount of fixed "dead time" in each boss per Frenzy level (in terms of phase transitions, invuln periods, etc. where you cannot do anything to decrease the boss health bar)?

[solar iris]

im thinking of getting another statue as a joke so i guess i'll do 18 for the other

mainly because i find it funny when Melinoe goes all embarassed about it

[ornate frost]

Yeah when people say “high fear” it’s usually 50+, if not 60+; I can personally attest that at least up to 32F, Prom is one of the easiest Rivals fights of the 8

[signal coral]

i dont think prom is necessarily easy, but if you take it slow you can get by without taking too much damage

[solar iris]

Rival Eris 🙄 insufferable. i managed to learn to just stick close to her so i can dodge her laser beams easier. but it's still annoying

[ornate frost]

I don’t think he’s “easy” but the jump from Prom to Rivals Prom is less than most of the Rivals jumps imo

[solar iris]

Scylla is the Bilewater of Hades 2 /joking

[ornate frost]

Like compare Prom to like Rivals Scylla or even Rivals Hecate/Poly, to say nothing of Rivals Chronos/Typhon

[signal coral]

rivals poly is very easy

its basically the same fight, but you dont get to stand in certain areas

[solar iris]

funny, i find Rivals Polyphemus pretty easy

mainly because Medea's messes forced me to be patient

[signal coral]

once you know where the medea patterns are you can just not stand there and then the fight is mostly the same

[solar iris]

i stay in the corner until the poisoned slop on the ground fades

[ornate frost]

I’m sure if I started taking Vow of Grit, I’d feel the HP bloat, but at standard HP, Prom/Herc go down real fast in my experience

Especially if you have Hitch or reasonable AOE like a Circe build

[signal coral]

they kind of have a lot of hp even without grit

also the forced phase transitions add a lot of time

[opal pecan]

How much time?

[signal coral]

its mostly bad because olympus is already the slowest region and you are in very big danger of timing out there

[ornate frost]

Not enough to be significant though since by that point you’ve added enough excess time from regions 1-2 that you’re probably not in danger of timing out the rest of the run

[solar iris]

imagine timing your runs
#NeverChecksTheTimerVow Gang

[signal coral]

timing out in olympus is very very real on high fear

[ornate frost]

We’re also talking 32 Fear or lower though, not high fear

[vernal quiver]

i mean im saying this off of vibes but the flame waves from prom are easily at least 20 seconds with frenzy2

[signal coral]

on low fear i think all the rivals bosses are pretty doable

[ornate frost]

I’m sure at 62 Fear it’s a lot but the whole convo kicked off from a person asking at like 12 Fear lol

[vernal quiver]

maybe even like 30 seconds, although at least in rivals you can still hit heracles so its not dead time by any means

[ornate frost]

So I’ve been trying to keep the convo within that scope

[signal coral]

i still take too much damage from the bosses so I need to practice more but without pain and especially if you turn frenzy off there is a huge amount of leeway for mistakes

[opal pecan]

Yeah I was just thinking! I guess if you manage to burst Herc down early, it goes back to being dead time, but I was tryna remember what else goes on with those guys

[signal coral]

i think the rivals prom fight almost always ends up being 2+ minutes on high fear

sometimes 3+ if your build sucks

and then you have to add on the rest of olympus on top of that

[solar iris]

i remember doing the Trial of Humility where you have no arcana no nothing, and boy. i remember the smug i feel when i won

i still took tons of dmg tho

[flint widget]

can confirm

[flint widget]

ok so after my 65 surface, next grind will be getting 12/24 unique 62 fear clears for underworld

next 62 is persephone

metal must be so happy rn

after the 12/24, im gonna be grinding 67s

yes, 67s

wait no probably like 67 since im only doing ts once

[opal pecan]

Well, unless you first-try (always possible!), I guess you could say technically multiple 67F attempts = 67s :D

[trail fern]

Hey guys, for aspect of moros torches, is sudden burst or clean coil better for a first hammer?

I don't have any magick gains yet - just a heroic Zeus special from room 1

[opal pecan]

I would go for Clean Coil personally, but that's just me

[trail fern]

I'll give it a shot, thanks!

[tawny imp]

whos the worst miniboss and whys it charybdis

[flint widget]

mega dracons second place

bro is a pain in the ass

[hidden crane]

agreed

[flint widget]

no hit mega dracon in my 65 fear pan run tho so ez

[hidden crane]

who's the best miniboss and why is it talos

[tawny imp]

talos is so fun i agree

[flint widget]

talos is free ngl

just dont be greedy and hit it when its doing its throwing attack

id say all underworld minibosses are free tbh

[tawny imp]

i hate big coin purse

[hidden crane]

it's like the most inoffensive keepsake ever ???

[tawny imp]

no the miniboss in tartarus

[flint widget]

i mean the coin attack is the only attack thats kinda threatening but that's about it

[manic shuttle]

it sucks but you can always skip that miniboss

[hidden crane]

oh the goldwrath
yeah i hate it too

[hidden crane]

really?? the laser's the one i get hit by most

[flint widget]

just go behind the bag and ez win

[tawny imp]

11 more weapons before i finish bearing dark gifts

[flint widget]

free backstab dmg if ur running mel blades too

[hidden crane]

mmm i love being forced to weave in and out constantly

hit by coins if i'm too far in, hit by laser if i'm too far out

[flint widget]

thats literally every fight ever

[hidden crane]

what if i just stay behind eris forever 😊

[flint widget]

i mean that's a different story

eris moves constantly

[harsh prism]

The tatarus minibosses always melt, and they both just don't do much

[flint widget]

plus you can always just yk, skip the minibosses

tbh i rarely take the optional path in tartarus

i always go straight for endshop

[hidden crane]

the humble Rift of Thessaly:

[flint widget]

unless it's hades room

[flint widget]

yeah but like yargonauts free (charybdis is a different story)

and also i was referring to tartarus

[hidden crane]

fair!

[tawny imp]

"man i wasnt able to get any max health in ephyra, hopefully the 1st encounter in thessaly isnt too hard"
the 2 armored dracons:

[flint widget]

u forgot to mention the satyr rocket mfers and the auto watchers

[opal pecan]

Menace is a menace

[flint widget]

the sniper trio

bro what was that

[signal coral]

the worst thessaly boats i have run into are all armored anchors + armored auto watchers on a small boat

sometimes you get some really awkward fangs perks too to make it even worse

the anchors have huge aoe control which limits where you can stand and the auto watchers just gun you down

can't even approach easily because the anchors zone you with their attacks

[flint widget]

i remember during a 65 fear attempt in thessaly, i had this nightmare combo of armored anchors (one was invincible due to fang perk) and those goddamn thessaly and olympus birds

i was fighting for my life back there

worst part was that i was on a small ass boat

forgot to mention that the anchors were also big asf plus i was running strength

[signal coral]

you know, the more i think about it, the more i realize how scary armored anchors are in combination with literally any ranged olympus enemy

[flint widget]

looking at you auto watchers

[signal coral]

any of those enemies being protected by an anchor is just hell

[flint widget]

and then after you get past thessaly you have to enter the hellhole that is olympus

pure nightmares

i remember getting chased down by an invincible horror while mf was speeding to me meanwhile i had to fight like a bajillion enemies as well

[tawny imp]

mutual destruction works on all damage bnesides. super specific stuff like morrigan right

[flint widget]

yep

can confirm

[fierce citrus]

should i just reset the run if i get deep discent

it dosent help with typhon at all tbh

[exotic haven]

Does it not work on his adds

That’s dumb that it’s even available if so

[fierce citrus]

no dont get me wrong it does

but like you just shred through them

there not a struggle at al

[sage flame]

deep dissent I think gets rid of the floor tentacles in phase 4 tho iirc?

that's kinda value too, if you get hit by those a lot

[fierce citrus]

oh does it

wait hold up deep discent goated then

[silent crow]

they look at you back

[fierce citrus]

then shoot you for 40 damage per shot

[flint widget]

i said this before but it needs to be said again:
call surface 007: 0 vibes, 0 fun, 7 different types of enemies that can delete all of ur hp

[opal pecan]

Ephyra is fun....

Summit has hella vibes (but they are all bad vibes)

[fierce citrus]

surface clears uw

summit easy the only problem is olympus

[silent crow]

0 vibes???

[fierce citrus]

minus the dracos from the summut or whatever there called

[silent crow]

surface has 10000 vibes

i am excited to start running surface tbh it seems very fun

[fierce citrus]

real

[fierce citrus]

55 fear surface is peak

[silent crow]

i much prefer the power fantasy gameplay instead of the scrape by gameplay

[flint widget]

wait until u get off screened by a dracon that deals over 80 dmg

[flint widget]

also this is all just exaggeration lmao

surface is just pure madness at high fear is what im saying lmao

[silent crow]

i already get jacked off by a lurker whos swipe recall hits 5 miles to the left of it

[fierce citrus]

the only thing i wish they did is that the enemies dont get aggro if you dont see them

[flint widget]

a what off?

[sage flame]

you know

[silent crow]

jorkin it 5 hour

[sage flame]

jacked off by a lurker whos swipe recall hits 5 miles

[fierce citrus]

the fact theres a robot shooting me from the end of the room and i havnt even been next to it yet is bs

[silent crow]

were you there for the 112! days

[sage flame]

yes lmao

[flint widget]

internet be inventing new kinks istg

[sage flame]

actually erebus c3 instant death

[silent crow]

that enemy has been jank for an entire year and they never fixed it

[silent crow]

i remember fields thorn self damage meta

[sage flame]

and they gave it an equally annoying back jump attack that does damage cause they spam it in the corner

[flint widget]

fresh file looking ass strat

[fierce citrus]

OMG 4 RUNS IN A ROW CHARYBDIS

this is so annoying man

[silent crow]

THAT ONE DOES DAMAGE??? WHAT I KNEW IT SUCKED BUT WHAT

[sage flame]

unless they made it do 0 for 1.0

it did damage when they introduced the move

[silent crow]

lurker so ass

[sage flame]

literally so true bestie

I remember early on i also hated hippos with a good amount of fervor

[fierce citrus]

@edgy nacelle thanks you for that charybdis tip 🙏

[silent crow]

those guys were awful when erebus timer was 100x worse than it was now

now the kids just jpom through erebus i mean thank god i dont want to do old erebus again

[sage flame]

so true

[silent crow]

i remember when chaos c1 also forced minor rewards on you for like 4 chambers in a row

that was pretty swell

[sage flame]

o that wasn't just luck lmao? that felt so bad

[silent crow]

yep it was rigged the entire time 💔💔

[opal pecan]

Speaking of Chaos curses, wtf is with that one that deletes your arcana for x encounters

[silent crow]

its funny

[opal pecan]

It sounds horrifying

Would you ever take it if the blessing was good enough

[silent crow]

i remember grtting that and 3 other sprintspeed buffs

[opal pecan]

Assuming you're not on max Void to begin with

[sage flame]

u usually get a really good reward and is lowkey worth if u don't have timer pressure or anything

[silent crow]

ill do it once

[silent crow]

oh yeah this was when chaos boon display was bugged so it looks like i have 3 heroics #h2-discussion message

[sage flame]

chant, revival, the death defiance one, big attack/special% are great

[silent crow]

max hp is underrated

[sage flame]

true

[silent crow]

channel speed is very unlikely but when it is useful it is run defining

[sage flame]

heroic barren could net you more than 100 HP probably (idk the numbers on it)

[silent crow]

for sure

chaos feels much more fitting in thsi game than h1

like. in h1 i was never really scared of chaos? even without reroll

but here chaos is very scary but also much more powerful

[opal pecan]

There's more necessary gameplay elements for them to hit

[silent crow]

more of the curses actually matter too

like lower movespeed in this game is genuinely crippling

[opal pecan]

Are the enemies just faster...?

[silent crow]

and inferno bombs are so so much worse without double dash

[silent crow]

no its bc u rely on movespeed to dodge attacks in hades 1 u just dash everywhere

[opal pecan]

Ahh, true

What a dashing fella our brother is

[silent crow]

if u take a movespeed curse into rivals scylla you will grt owned and die

[sage flame]

yeah did the "shorter/slower dash" exist in h1 or was it only. move speed slow in h1

[silent crow]

there was shorter dash iirc but it had the same iframes so it wasnt a big deal all things considered

affluence is also so much better these days

although maybe its value is questionable now that we have the time piece?

[sage flame]

I guess if ur not on fates whim

[opal pecan]

I mean, if you get it early enough, that frees up a keepsake slot doesn't it

[silent crow]

ive found money in this game to be more useful in general bc of the powerscaling

[sage flame]

because of the implications

[silent crow]

in hades 1 ur buying 150 gold boons from the shop for your crit damage to go from 250 to 256

[austere trail]

the implicaterr

[fierce citrus]

circe removed vow of time

i wouldve rathered the extra arcana

[austere trail]

yea that happened to me once too haha, total waste

[fiery kraken]

How does Flood Gain work? When it says the duration is X seconds at different rarities, I expected the time taken is how long it takes to recover the omega move magic

but that doesn't make sense since it's longer for rarer levels

Can you recover the magic from multiple casts, and starting with the first one you have X seconds of recovery time?

[tawny imp]

Very dumb question: does tough gain work with ares Zeus duo

[stable herald]

Nope 😔

[fierce citrus]

is getting 11 boones throughout 3 regions normal?

[silent crow]

yea

[tawny imp]

Wait you can’t make multiple special turrets with momus??

[vernal quiver]

yeah this exactly

basically for x seconds after using any mana, you restore the amount spent, then it goes on cooldown for a bit

its basically born gain but with a cooldown and no priming

[stable herald]

Only one turret each of OAttack, OSpecial, and OCast

Flood Gain is basically unlimited magick for X seconds, on an 8 second cooldown

How does Local Climate interact with the extra cast on Circe? Does being in one cast boost both? If they overlap and you're in both do they stack?

[fiery kraken]

is there a trick to the "dash while charging up omega special on axe" ?

I've tried hold special into dash, but that didn't do anything

[silent crow]

wait until the magic icon appears

[fiery kraken]

ah

[uneven palm]

Once you do an omega, timer indicated on the boon starts. During that buff, you restore all magic. Once it’s over, wait 8s. While it’s down you just use your magick bar like normal. When the 8s cooldown is over you can activate the buff again, even if you have zero magick left.

[fiery kraken]

I think I need to swap keymapings

OH so it's 8 seconds after the timer ends

not 8 seconds from start of the timer

Wait, how do you activate the buff again? by trying to charge an omega?

That would explain why I kept running out of magic. I couldn't believe it - 7 second heroic and 8 second cooldown, I can't possibly spend all my magic in 1 second!

[dreamy veldt]

Lol I killed Chronos through all of his healers

I'm about to turn on vows to make myself have more fun

Which feels like the antithesis to my very being

[stable herald]

Menace, Fangs, and Rivals genuinely make the game more fun

Shadows would too but some of those upgraded minibosses suuuck

[dreamy veldt]

I was thinking pain grit hordes frenzy 1

Menace 2

Debating doing rivals or not

[clever drum]

Grit sucks

[dreamy veldt]

Rivals 1 is just more annoying to me than anything

Rivals 2 is where it starts getting cool

Maybe I'll do rivals 4 and take off pain grit

[opal pecan]

Rivals 4 does sound more fun than Pain + Grit

And I say that as an avid Rivals-avoider 😆

[brittle plank]

how would one go about doing a no boon run? i've heard people talk about it and was just curious how it actually works in case i ever want to try it on something not too crazy like nergal or morrigan

[austere trail]

I'd imagine it's something like vow of forfeit and purge your boons as much as you can

[glass bone]

Use Time Piece as a way to purge the boons you are forced to run into

[austere trail]

oh true

[glass bone]

If possible, take any door that doesn’t offer a boon, such as a shop

[opal pecan]

I assume it's easier UW

[austere trail]

yea

[glass bone]

It’s easier not just in skill requirement, but also RNG probably

[opal pecan]

Trying to think about it with that person who was trying to boonless Surface gave me a headache

[austere trail]

especially since you don't get purging wells in surface

[opal pecan]

Oh yeah, I forgot about purging wells, thought you were talking about purging with chrolex haha

And Nem! sometimes

[austere trail]

true
with chrolex uw route you can probably not even have to pick a single boon at all

[hidden crane]

yeah isn't there Precisely One purging well in the entire game lol

[opal pecan]

No? I'm not sure if this is a "you haven't unlocked it yet" thing; I could have sworn it was "unlock Purging" all at once.

[austere trail]

nope! if you purge 5 boons minimum in the one in tartarus, there's an incantation to have purging wells in every uw region!

I only found this out a week ago haha

[opal pecan]

Ahhh, it was an unlocking thing, gotcha

[hidden crane]

huh! i rarely use the tartarus purging well so i never knew this

[austere trail]

yea it was a lot easier in H1 to pick up useless boons

[opal pecan]

FTR stuff like Bridal Glow, Proper Upbringing, etc. are free to purge -- anything that is a one-time effect

[austere trail]

that too

[opal pecan]

It doesn't revert the benefits you gained from the one time effect

[harsh prism]

TIL i've been holding those for no reason

[opal pecan]

It does very specifically have to be one time, though. If you purge something like Water Fitness (which continues to buff you as you gain more water elements), you lose it all.

[hidden crane]

though doesn't proper upbringing also prevent you from finding any common boons (assuming it's the one i'm thinking of)
not that that's very useful in tartarus but

[silent crow]

i always thought this was extremely stupid

[harsh prism]

Wait if I purge proper upbringing, can I find a common boon after?

[opal pecan]

Does it? I wasn't aware of that.

Either way, though, this was in context of boonless runs, so it's moot for sure 😆

[hidden crane]

lul

[rain wagon]

Yeah, you won't see any commons after picking it up

[harsh prism]

neat

[opal pecan]

Nice! So it's a good synergy with Uncommon Grace, huh.

[hidden crane]

exactly

[opal pecan]

Now UG is one that I know doesn't prevent you from getting commons lol

[rain wagon]

That's the self-synergy in her pool, yeah

Also great with the Calling Card keepsake

Can save you a lot of extra rarifies

[opal pecan]

Hera utilities are so good

[harsh prism]

I only ever take UG after picking up PU

[silent crow]

i mean uncommon grace cant show up unless u already have 0 commons

[harsh prism]

I'm learning a lot rn

[silent crow]

dw i didnt know that for a while i also thought that boon was useless garbage

i remember the old days when proper upbringing was bad because vow of hubris primed 10 magic per rarity so you would like immediately prime out if you took it

[brittle plank]

so boonless runs are theoretically possible with just time piece and avoiding boon rewards, interesting! i had wondered if there might be some other tech needed but just those two combined working is quite cool

[bronze flax]

Should I just play Aspect of Selene with Growth and Night Arcanas and not rely that much on Omega Attacks and let the Hex charge naturally? Man, I'm struggling

I guess that's what Frenzy 1 does to you

[silent crow]

nah charge omegas

if ur struggling i recommend doing a combo of ospecial - dash attack

[opal pecan]

Hex autocharge is good, but I would say rather look for boons that make your omega (or ospecials specifically) more expensive if you're having trouble charging

[harsh prism]

shoot omega rockets, activate hex and dash around, repeat

[silent crow]

this will do good damage spend magic and has good safety because the dash attack will stagger enemies while the rockets travel

[brittle plank]

thats hilarious, i feel like they fixed rarity increases on already taken boons not priming new magick now and i guess i never played enough with that vow back before then

[silent crow]

later in the game after you have a good safety net you can start alternating omega attack and special wiht night arcana

to maximize damage

and as everyone else has said get thr stuff that increases magic cost on omegas like controlled burn, cutabove, fine lines, etc .

[silent crow]

it was still free fear btw even back then

[opal pecan]

I love getting +cost stuff on non-Shiva coat specials. They charge so fast and are so cheap at baseline.

[harsh prism]

hera specials are so much fun

[brittle plank]

lmao thats interesting, ik magick heavy builds can struggle so it makes some amount of sense but i really would expect you to run out of magick for some builds that are more viable with omegas if it primed 10

im quite fond of the vow now though even as someone who's relatively predisposed to using omegas

[silent crow]

the vow is good ya

[bronze flax]

I think the struggle is more because I find the Coat's Omega attacks kinda clunky

[empty fable]

If you have night bloom with the duo and the upgrade that makes the revived enemy permenant, is it better to resummon the unit or keep the first hera empowered one?

[harsh prism]

Do you avoid taking proper upbringing/too many rares or just take more magic upgrades with that vow

[silent crow]

ignore them until late game

[silent crow]

now? it doesnt apply its fine now

back then uou'd just avoid it

[harsh prism]

I think I've primed myself to 0 with that before, but it was on something that didn't need to omega I guess

[bronze flax]

Also, just to check, Ares Godsent only adds Wounds, right? It doesn't add extra damage to the Hex

[silent crow]

nope. it adds +50pwr on each hit its wildly broken ignore the description

[bronze flax]

Ok, good thing I try to get it always lol

[junior trail]

keep the hera one, unless you have lineage and/or task force that allow you to trigger godsent multiple times

[opal pecan]

That does make me curious tangentially -- if you purge a hex's god after investing in the godsent upgrade for the path of stars, does it... un-godsend your hex?

[harsh prism]

side question, can you godsend a hex during a dispute battle against that god? I feel like it didn't work once but now I can't remember

[hidden crane]

yes
and they have special dialogue for it

[junior trail]

yes, there are unique voice lines, same as h1

[harsh prism]

neat

[junior trail]

Hex and Path of Stars themselves can’t be purged, so I’d assume only the related god boon gets removed.
So no, purging that boon doesn’t take away your Godsent.

[opal pecan]

I have no earthly idea what use this piece of knowledge could possibly be put to, but nevertheless, having conceived of it and sought it out, I shall tuck it away in the innermost chamber of my soul.

[dreamy veldt]

I lost

I see why people say that rivals Scylla is one of the hardest

Maybe instead of going from 0 to 24 I'll go from 0 to uhhh

21

[empty fable]

Thank you!

[tawny imp]

I love hades 2 comments on YT

“Artemis is better than Morrigan because you can just spam oatk with it which is faster than blood triad”

[dreamy veldt]

I maybe should've gone lower

Almost lost 2 dd to Hecate

Almost lost 2 dd to Scylla

[fierce citrus]

i hope this guy is joking

cause i wouldnt be surprised if people actullay believe this

[junior trail]

i mean.. if art blades has sweeping, it’s actually pretty fun
still not stronger than morrigan but fun

[uneven palm]

People believe a lot of wrong things (just generally but also about H2 haha)

[solar iris]

i feel like i know the answer but also not. does the moon phase affect anything? like selene’s boons or the path of stars?

[junior trail]

you mean the cutscene in the training ground or the full/half/dark moon symbol on the hex selection?

[solar iris]

the former

i know the symbol in thr hex selection dw

[junior trail]

iirc it doesn’t affect anything gameplay-wise. It’s mostly just a pretty cutscene
maybe a few unique lines if you’re at certain story points, but nothing mechanical tied to it.

i recall someone said it foretells hecate's hex moveset in the boss fight but im really sure if its the case

[pearl wyvern]

I know this is has been asked a billion times but what are the better special/cast combo for Charon aspect

I keep forgetting

[fierce citrus]

honstly i like to run apollo special and posiden cast

but any cast that inflicts a status effect is automatically good

[junior trail]

special: apol (exceptional), hera (cc, origination), aphro (island, sunny)
cast: pos (1 hit, geyser), dem (safe but less dmg, arctic gale, local, hostile), hera (1 hit, cc, incandescent with lucid), heph (a bit slower but hammers stack, very funny)
super nova and prom flare are also handy

[fierce citrus]

also having ares in your god pool for that omega cast ring is pretty good (but i dont recommend his special or cast)

[junior trail]

yeah, ares is only for meat grinder and hostile (if lucky), sword ring is too slow and wounds on special messes with charon timing (if having giga/exceptional)

[pearl wyvern]

I think Apollo, Demeter, and a bit of Poseidon are really dedicated to casts

Yet I never run Demeter for Circe

[fierce citrus]

i feel for circe you want more damage casts demeter doesn't do to much damage

[pearl wyvern]

I start every Circe run with cloud bangle for a reason

[junior trail]

arctic gale on circe is pretty pog ngl, wards clear is nice

but yeah circe is more of zeus/hestia cast

[pearl wyvern]

Circe is probably one of the weapons that you don’t use jpom, kinda like Selene coat

[edgy nacelle]

demeter on circe is at least pretty safe, and you can arctic gale + air quality and stuff
I like zeus/hestia (or even heph) to shred bosses with cast only, but it's not like normal mel staff combos can't do the heavy lifting if you choose to use cast for safety 🤷

[junior trail]

i like winner/glorious/hera cast+incandescent+lucid on circe
go full blown cast build like a real mage

[pearl wyvern]

Technically you could use jpom with Selene but you wouldn’t start with it

[edgy nacelle]

and hm, I did jpom for circe runs but it depends
imo there are enough good casts total that I don't rly worry, but zeus start is ofc consistent

[pearl wyvern]

Why winner over super nova

[edgy nacelle]

glorious disaster without winner's circle is painful tbqh

[viral yew]

Glorious disaster is painful regardless

[edgy nacelle]

throwing in super nova is a nice bonus, but if you're doing glorious at all I feel like WC is kinda required for it to not feel like ass

when I tried it for a surface run on circe I still nearly timed out even with winner's circle lol (altho to be fair I had no gain till olympus which was the bigger issue)

• winner's circle = more damage out of hera cast

[pearl wyvern]

I don’t do winner for Circe because I usually drop normal cast over and over because bird is all over the place

[viral yew]

Depends on the cast

[edgy nacelle]

yeah depends on the cast
for casts that just do one hit of damage (or heph) winner's circle is great

[viral yew]

Apollo or other instant damage casts u need winners

Zeus, hestia, dem, u don't

[edgy nacelle]

and for Ω cast stuff it's really nice since otherwise channeling is kinda risky
missing winner's circle on a normal apollo/poseidon etc cast build is a damage loss, but if you're doing geyser spout, prominence flare, glorious disaster etc then it's also a safety loss to not have it

[viral yew]

True that

[edgy nacelle]

and then anvil ring is just this weird middle ground where like. both are fine 🤷
winner's circle is a bit of extra damage so ig it's optimal...?

[viral yew]

So much investment tho for such a bad duo

[edgy nacelle]

also anvil ring with hostile environment feels so weird lol, the hammers don't follow you even while your cast circle does

[pearl wyvern]

I actually got a new record earlier with Circe but Apollo was giving me everything except super nova so I ended up improvising a Daze/Back Burner/Mirrored Thrasher kit

still did more damage with casts than attack but I was not getting cast related boons

[edgy nacelle]

ooooh
no prom flare either? and were you Ω casting or just normal casts?

[pearl wyvern]

No ocast because Zeus ring

[edgy nacelle]

ohhh not apollo cast, got it
yeah, storm ring does that tbh

honestly I'm kinda lukewarm on super nova with zeus cast, it's nice but it's still a single target cast, so more AoE won't do anything unless every enemy walks out of your cast

great against mobile bosses tho for sure

[pearl wyvern]

I use it mainly because I don’t know where Raki is half the time so when I cast it’s either overlapping or on the other side of the area

[edgy nacelle]

lmao yeah raki is weirdly hard to keep track of sometimes

[left dirge]

raki spawns in where you omega cast

[bronze flax]

Disagree with Circe. I have tried the JPom on Circe and it's pretty good

Agree with Selene, though, most of the time you really want to start with Moon Beam

[junior trail]

or ares keepsake for godsent

[bronze flax]

That too

I start with Moon Beam because I want to put online my Blue/Purple upgrades ASAP

[opal pecan]

Y'know, I will say one thing for Charon.... even in my hands, it kiiiiiinda trivialized Tail of Typhon.

Linear arena be like

[edgy nacelle]

huh. got trick knives in olympus but for once idk if it actually feels better to pivot into it...

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1426118288198602775/1439117043516309665/Screenshot_2025-11-14_at_8.57.09_PM.png?ex=691959b0&is=69180830&hm=fcec80de2f09ba67611664045e06aee6afed35d2159d1f3d27ba5206e39d65bb&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1076&height=700
a lot of damage is coming from this stuff. so I may try weaving in both types of special 🤷

OOH and king tide 👀 ok that's fun, and might put trick knives over the edge since it'll let raw splash keep up.... time to mess around ig

.....ok so rivals prom sucked lmfao but. ah well

oh I never got origination that's the issue. aha

not even. c-close.... 🙃 10 hp babality, that was. fine. not stressed at all

[rare ermine]

Hangover doesnt count for origination?

[edgy nacelle]

oh! true
I guess I got orig but it only lasts for a few seconds per target

[opal pecan]

Huh.... how long does hangover last

[edgy nacelle]

uhhh I can tell you next time timer is paused

(I got it again lol, p.array medea)

[edgy nacelle]

4 seconds

[opal pecan]

Longer than Wounds it seems, but only once per enemy is 😩

[upbeat matrix]

Uh, is it just me or are the underworld rivals bosses actually harder than surface

[opal pecan]

Not just you

[upbeat matrix]

Chronos rivals is the hardest boss in the game I feel personally

[vernal quiver]

Scylla and chronos are 2 of the hardest imo

[edgy nacelle]

that's the general consensus yeah

a lot of ppl say chronos > scylla > either typhon or prom as the top 3 lol
and hecate in theory isn't too bad but high fear erebus sucks

[vernal quiver]

When it comes to high fear surface has the harder areas but uw has the harder bosses imo

[upbeat matrix]

yeah probably, the enemies on surface are quite hard

I have finished 32 fear..........now I am going to try for higher than that.....but first I need to re-learn the game on frenzy lol

[hazy merlin]

I struggle more with Unrivaled Typhon than Unrivaled Chronos

[vernal quiver]

Typhon sometimes just hits you cuz he decides to

Like some of the combos with him and chronos can be evil asf to try to dodge

[upbeat matrix]

his projectiles are really hard :/

[edgy nacelle]

god I'm REALLY growing to love aspect of Medea, never could have seen this arc coming

[vernal quiver]

I really like medea its super fun just on high fear I play too reckless with it 😭

[edgy nacelle]

jeeesus it's fast tho, bablity time already...

[whole charm]

what is the guage for next to health on Than axe?

[edgy nacelle]

crit rate for omega moves! it builds up each time you land an attack or special, then resets to zero if you get hit
max 20%, higher with Success Rate from Hermes

it makes Than really versatile, since you can just go ham with the attack speed buff or lean hard into the crit on omega moves

[whole charm]

ohh i see, thats cool

[fierce citrus]

how the runs going malkin

[whole charm]

i have made a horrible mistake. I took reckless abandon on than axe I am STRUGGLING

[edgy nacelle]

time to pivot into omega special gaming I guess lol...

[solar iris]

I just tried aspect of medea with a heroic zeus attack boon and hephaestus' special boom. VERY bursty.

[edgy nacelle]

it IS, it's absurdly good
zeus special is usually the meta for it, but tbh no matter what you put on it it shreds

[solar iris]

Also tried possessed array like you said but i dont think i used it well

[solar iris]

Oh it should be zeus SPECIAL? Oops

[edgy nacelle]

either way works, but yeah that's generally the goal
and with p.array usually the issue if anything is just not having enough magick to keep up

[solar iris]

yeah LMAO

It's worth it tho. I think i took a HUGE chunk of hecate's hp

[edgy nacelle]

ooooh I've missed speeds, 6:48 mel staff is nothing crazy but it's fun to zoom through a run after so much higher fear

[whole charm]

im sorry why do people not like aspect of hel this thing kinda goes crazy

[edgy nacelle]

people generally like it fairly well I think...? the only downside is that it only has like 2 good builds, rly

[whole charm]

every tier list i have seen (i know not to trust tier lists, but even Haelian's) its always at the bottom

But i just did the trial for it and it was pretty damn good

[edgy nacelle]

idt it would be at the bottom but it's solidly like... hm. B tier I guess? it's good, there are just a lot of weapons which are better

it also doesn't help that aspect of Medea is a skull too, and is like... the speedrun weapon, kind of the uncontested best one in the game

[whole charm]

its kinda crazy but if im being honest hel seems like more fun and idk i just again ive tried medea so much, i do exactly what everybody does and its just always a little dissappointing

[edgy nacelle]

I mean tbh it took me until like.... earlier this week to start liking Medea, and I have hundreds of hours in this game

idt it's for everyone, it's very risky and rewards fast paced play, and I'm kind of bad at it
but it def deserves its crown

[whole charm]

i mean yeah its good definitely i just might be skill issue

[dreamy veldt]

My only issue with hel is that I'd have an easier time hitting enemies if I just stick out my arm

(the range feels so small)

[edgy nacelle]

my issue is also the range, or was since I recently started loving it. I just prefer ranged weapons a lot

[dreamy veldt]

The weapon is very fun

[flint widget]

ok i just woke up the hell did i miss

[tawny imp]

what does breaker rush get buffed by besides global damage

i just got a lv10 rare breaker rush from pers

[dreamy veldt]

??

[edgy nacelle]

I finished [every aspect 40f](#h2-victory-boasting message)!!! 🎉 with [medea](#h2-victory-boasting message) too, for a grand finale

[edgy nacelle]

uhhhh. supay 🤷
olympian damage% prob, so rallying cry + extended family

[flint widget]

nice

also malkin u missed a lot while u were asleep

[edgy nacelle]

like what 👀

[spark crown]

Can tough gain still get levels through sacrifice? (Feels like something they would change)

[edgy nacelle]

oh hi metal, damn are you two in the same time zone I feel like you pop online around the same just-before-midnight time for me most days

[spark crown]

It's the start of the evening for me XD

[flint widget]

a lot being i switched to pan after rage quitting mel staff and circe and i got my first surface 65 with it first try

[tawny imp]

are rush only buiklds even real with supay

[flint widget]

hit the ideal start too with tk and gigaros

[spark crown]

Splash and scorch builds go hard on supay

Blitz aswell

[flint widget]

i mean there are other weps that could go for rush only

[edgy nacelle]

sure, altho depends how high your fear is
rush only builds were a thing before supay too, king's ransom pom pom pom goes crazy

[flint widget]

most notably nyx

[edgy nacelle]

with glamour gain and light smite for origination lmao, I guess

[spark crown]

Anyone know the answer to this btw

[flint widget]

in fact there's a whole speedrunning category dedicated to dash only runs

[tawny imp]

wait epic stabbing rush as boon 1 supay

hmmmmmm

[spark crown]

Ehh it's ok I guess

[edgy nacelle]

I think someone was talking abt this recently but idk from personal experience and can't link a source so..... hard maybe 👍

[spark crown]

Cuz I saw a healian vid about it idk when it was from tho

Omg tiktok answered my question scrolled onto a vid about it (stolen content tho)

From the healian vid from 1 day ago

[rare ermine]

Yeah tough gain can still get +lvl when offered as a sac boon

[dreamy veldt]

Ok 21 fear is still too high

Time to try 17

[fierce citrus]

Would Selene hexes be considered boons

[fierce citrus]

Good luck

[spark crown]

NAH JUMP STRAIGHT TO 60F (kidding gl)

[spark crown]

i dont think so

they are just major finds like hammers

if it did itd probs jsut be the hex itself not its upgrades

[flint widget]

does selene count to extended family?

[fierce citrus]

Good point

[spark crown]

nope

[fierce citrus]

I’m watching someone clear uw taking no boons at all and he purged Selene

[spark crown]

nah trust me it does :P

[fierce citrus]

His names theofficialeric on YouTube

[flint widget]

bros contradicting himself

[spark crown]

wdym :PPPPPP

[fierce citrus]

That would be peak if it did

[flint widget]

you put an x emoji on my question and then immediately backtracked saying nah it does

[edgy nacelle]

apparently it's literally just olympians despite saying "boon givers"
so 9 core gods + athena, artemis, hermes, dio

[flint widget]

interesting

sgg wording at its finest

[fierce citrus]

Well to be fair they do give boons no one else does

[flint widget]

what about npcs

[fierce citrus]

Selene hex and all the npcs are called blessings or whatever it’s called

There not boons

[flint widget]

like sgg labels hades to have boons according to jpoms description

[edgy nacelle]

nope
this is from someone (hippo?) on the speedcord
it's just the olympian gods

[flint widget]

fascinating

[edgy nacelle]

or wait no it's not from them

[flint widget]

sgg wording at its finest truly

[edgy nacelle]

but it is a speedcord thing, someone asked this a couple days ago and I went looking for it there

[fierce citrus]

Maybe hades also does count as a boon

Does it work with extended family

[flint widget]

no idea

[fierce citrus]

His not an Olympian but I’d argue he does give a boon

I’m not even arguing like you said the game labels it as a boon

[flint widget]

yeah

[edgy nacelle]

btw checkmate do you know much about surface any fear speeds?

now that 40s are done I want to do every aspect sub-X and idk what time is like. a good goal

• idk how surface speeds work in general tbh

[flint widget]

i mean kinda i guess

wait after im done eating

[fierce citrus]

I just realised this game Dosent have any of the puppets

Or whatever they were called in hades 1

[tawny imp]

im having an incredibly dumb run rn

[edgy nacelle]

yessss the summon things
sadly </3

[tawny imp]

started off as a blade rush build then i replaced blade rush with breaker rush

[fierce citrus]

Took me 100 hours to realise that lmao

[tawny imp]

then it became an arterial spray build then i replaced wave flourish with volcanic flourish

[flint widget]

replaced them with familiars

[fierce citrus]

Eos?

[tawny imp]

so now i have an arterial spray doing literally nothing

[flint widget]

at least u have a green boon

[fierce citrus]

We should’ve gotten both trust

[edgy nacelle]

hm ok, maybe I'll change my mind when I get to slow aspects but so far sub-7 UW all aspects feels like a very fair goal

[dreamy veldt]

Came out of Hecate with 28 hp

[edgy nacelle]

I'm prob just going to aim for something I can first or second try to make my stats page pretty lmao not like. idk. new pbs

[dreamy veldt]

Oh and no dds

[edgy nacelle]

ooof, rivals or normal

[dreamy veldt]

Rivals but still awful

I was gonna have to retire if I fully lost

[edgy nacelle]

what's your fear set up? overall

[fierce citrus]

What fear are you running

[dreamy veldt]

I'm playing mace which I feel is just hard vs her

It's just rivals 4 menace 2 grit hordes 1

[fierce citrus]

Why grit and hordes

[dreamy veldt]

It's the kind of difficulty increase that I like

[fierce citrus]

Your better off putting wards if you’ve gotten a fast hitting weapon and shadow

[edgy nacelle]

oof yeah grit and hordes are actively very hard, I turned both on above 45 fear 💀
but good on you for using them early

[fierce citrus]

Oh that’s fair

[edgy nacelle]

if you're looking for "free" fear there are other options, but fear is a self imposed challenge so like. I get it

[fierce citrus]

No frenzy though?

[dreamy veldt]

Nope I initially had it and then turned it off

Cause hard

[fierce citrus]

Frenzy adds a fun difficulty to the game

[edgy nacelle]

also off topic, skull speed time: mel, mom, or hel? (medea done for now)

also yeah, frenzy is fun but takes a while to get used to, so can feel discouraging imo

[fierce citrus]

Once you play a few runs with it it becomes 10 times easier

[fierce citrus]

Hel

I’ve never used hel or mum

[dreamy veldt]

Basically I've been playing 0f and it was getting a little too easy, so now I'm trying to find the sweetspot of more challenging but still I will always win

[fierce citrus]

Hel looks fun if you go the plasma route

[fierce citrus]

Yea then frenzy would be the way to go

If you ever wanna try it just turn horde and grit off and try it out

Oh and chronos rivals until you get used to it

[tawny imp]

what the hell i killed typhon in like 30 sec lmao

[spark crown]

hades 3 gotta have both

[junior trail]

yeah i love plasma on hel, grisly is a bit inconsistent tho
cardio is the heaven match for her

[spark crown]

(and be multiplayer) (we play both siblings)

[dreamy veldt]

At this rate I'm probably just gonna go down to like menace 2 hordes 1 💀

[fierce citrus]

And we also get a full model Aphrodite in 3D please

[spark crown]

try just rivals and frenzy 2

[dreamy veldt]

But hey this is giving me a very real and painful and saddening reminder that I am garbage at this game

[spark crown]

🤨

[dreamy veldt]

Never touching frenzy two again

[tawny imp]

SURFACE 40 BEATEN WITH SUPAY

(and void 2)

[spark crown]

dude you will improve i was getting wrecked 60f first room now on 60 i can consitently make it to poly

[fierce citrus]

I’ll try that out because I still need to clear uw or surface with it for minor prophecy

[fierce citrus]

Congrats

[tawny imp]

dude ive poured my life savings into moros and i still havent gotten his friendship for seek us

what am i meant to do

[junior trail]

there are already 3 bajillions of fanmade aphro 3d model posts on reddit anyway so lol

[dreamy veldt]

Pour more

[fierce citrus]

Exactly so they just need to copy and pasta lol

[spark crown]

what you want that model for 🤨

[spark crown]

you need to form a bond

[dreamy veldt]

Basically if you think you've done enough with Moros, no you haven't

[fierce citrus]

I realised how weird that sounded lol but like an actual model like Zeus and Hera I want it for all the gods tbh but Aphrodite would be cool for reasons

[fierce citrus]

I can assure you frenzy 2 fun as hell but if your gonna try it out frenzy 1 is more then enough

[dreamy veldt]

I need to get my ego back after I lose this run in like 2 minutes

So might just go back to 0f temporarily

[spark crown]

ohhhhh XD tbh for that shed probs need to put clothes on

[fierce citrus]

Turn frenzy on that’s it nothing else

[flint widget]

ok malkin im back

[fierce citrus]

Yea probably

[edgy nacelle]

wb! I'm mid run but also checking chat between some rooms lol

[tawny imp]

why cant these people be like nyx and only desire my continued service to the realm ive given up so much nectar and ambrosia

[flint widget]

ok so surface speedys right?

[edgy nacelle]

yessss

[flint widget]

do u know about the ideal rooms to take in ephyra

[edgy nacelle]

no! which is a big thing, I haven't touched surface speeds even a little bit lol

[spark crown]

4 boons 1 hp right?

[flint widget]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1245594586135527466/1358678593252757567/image.png?ex=6919648b&is=6918130b&hm=dc93fc826755a0a26bddbe06b17dfafbbb5bf684acd01eac37bac1cfa040bfd4&=&format=png&quality=lossless

heres the img and also never take side rooms

[fierce citrus]

This honestly helped my ephyra by 100

[edgy nacelle]

ooooooh THANK you amazing resource
so for ephyra what I know is uh.

1. check that image lol
2. medea and minibosses last
   and 3. I can imagine it might be useful to take hp/magick just for a chance at artemis timer pause, but idk if that's true or not

[flint widget]

in my surface speedruns i usually try to take rooms that are blue and green and unless theres an important god i want there i stay away from orange and red rooms

looking at u heph and hera

[fierce citrus]

For number 3 I don’t think it’s the most accurate

Because Hercules can spawn in any room but if you need magik go for it

And if hp is in a blue room and the rest of the gods are orange go for the heart

If you already got Hercules from a boon room then yea I’d say go for hp and magik (I don’t speed run though so I could be wrong)

[edgy nacelle]

anything else important abt ephyra? or on to thessaly 👀 if there's anything notable abt it
also I assume it's the usual jpom/god => fig => gorgon => antler, to guarantee athena and go faster than natural athena

[flint widget]

yeah

thessaly, idfk man, just pray that youll get small ships, circe, midshop, fountain room, or miniboss (at least two/three of em is good)

thessaly is usually my slowest region by far

and olympus exists

[fierce citrus]

For Olympus stay going for inside rooms because that’s were fountains spawns

[flint widget]

yeah

also pray for small rooms

[edgy nacelle]

ooooh good to know, didn't know that abt fountain rooms altho it checks out thinking back

[flint widget]

big rooms are the bane of any speedrun

summit, nothing much to say

ideally you want to have twins and eye as ur minibosses

[fierce citrus]

And idk if it’s just me but I feel like there’s more smaller rooms inside then there is outside

All the outside rooms feel massive

[edgy nacelle]

yeah then it's rly just ephyra and other than that, lessons from UW apply, just a lot of annoying rng

[flint widget]

eye especially

tail takes way too long in my experience

[edgy nacelle]

ty all will probably knock out every aspect UW first, but then surface
if it were you, what would you set as a sub-x time goal for surface every aspect?

[flint widget]

especially on a short range weapon like medea

[cinder kestrel]

is there any good source for builds for the various aspects?

[fierce citrus]

Don’t forgot to turn off shadow

[flint widget]

check out lee ream snyders website

[fierce citrus]

Is 7-9 minutes good idk surface times

[flint widget]

yeah id say thats solid

[edgy nacelle]

that def sounds good lol

[vernal quiver]

Yeah i got a like 7:26 and thats 7th on the speedrun leaderboard lmao

[edgy nacelle]

then sub-9 all aspects prob doable for something like. semi chill

[flint widget]

well its cuz nobody wants to run surface speedys lol

[edgy nacelle]

maybe sub 10 if I try a few and it sucks

[flint widget]

anyways on the speedcord im gonna try to stream my 62 perseph attempts there on the voice channel

[edgy nacelle]

damn Hel feels slower than I'd expect... may actually not first try sub-7
would you rec waves or scorch start? assuming one or the other over jpom

[edgy nacelle]

ooh hell yeah, might pop in soonish on mute lol to watch

[flint widget]

stream quality might be ass tho cuz im running a cursed setup of streaming steam deck to pc and streaming pc to discord

[digital juniper]

sub 7 UW, sub 9 surface