h2-builds-and-combat

[crystal burrow]

I am pretty sure its Aphrodite on attack because the base numbers on attack are absurdly high, but I havent gotten any good runs with it yet so dont know the best build

[cursive gate]

Will give that a try👍🏾

[crystal burrow]

After beating Rival 4 surface bosses in terms of difficulty

1. Typhon, the last phase can make this fight very difficult
   1.5 Prometheus, died many times to his 2nd fire attacks, because fighting two dudes at once makes it very hard to dodge that sequence
2. Cyclops, poison is annoying
3. Eris got a lot weaker

[manic harbor]

Anyone know why one of my specials disappeared in the middle of fighting Polyphemus when I'm using Supay? Shouldn't those stay up constantly while fighting? Could his shield have destroyed one if they hit it? It didn't come back until after I beat him.

[dim kelp]

I had everything disappear in the training grounds once, so maybe a bug?

[crystal burrow]

That might just be a bug, because I have noticed the flames disappear sometimes as well. Omega special and sprinting seems to make it come back up for me

[hexed spade]

I’m finding Aphrodite skull omega special with the Twisting Crash to be the only avenue of dumb damage, are there anything else that can match its power. Again help a noob out friends

[manic harbor]

I think this run is just cursed, I swear Gale just wasted a block on Heracles hitting me while fighting things.

[brazen ore]

Supay is absolutely nuts. I'm kind of enjoying it but I feel quite certain it will get nerfed lol

Im just like enjoying the freedom to watch attack patterns in easy mode lol

[stoic tinsel]

There's cases for quite a few gods

Apollo range makes it safer to use, Aphrodite makes number big, Hera because Hitch

[manic harbor]

Dang, Supay with Heph on special and Heph/Hestia duo is kinda fun. Lol

[brazen ore]

I hope it never gets nerfed. I know it will but im having so much fun zooming around melting things

[dim kelp]

I feel like the triad is chonky enough that you can run pretty much anything on it, though Poseidon knockbacks might make your life difficult.

Aphro has big percent buff and Secret Crush to add power, and Sweet Surrender if you get a Weak boon. I think the cast is especially good, because it pulls enemies together, which makes it easier to special through them. Ares Wound boons give you base power and percent buff, and the cooldown on the power is less impactful since you don’t have to keep using the same strike. Apollo giving larger AoE has been nice for more efficiently tagging enemies for the triad, especially for the special, since the attack is naturally wide. I also think having a Freeze of some kind is pretty nice to help you charge your omega without getting disrupted, and Hitch would let you spread the big triad damage around.

[dim kelp]

I had a run with Apollo special and Reaper Knives, which I think stack in making the hit volume larger, and that felt really nice for landing the triads consistently

[stoic tinsel]

Ares special seems good but I can't not get hitch in the build somewhere

It's too damn funny

[cursive gate]

good points, especially about the hitch, maybe a hera cast would pair well

[cursive gate]

When the patch first came out I thought the poison was obnoxious, still is but the fight overall is just very easy because he has no health, compared to Rivals Cerberus in which I just have no clue how to avoid 1st phase attacks because of the small arena.

[dim kelp]

Honestly, what has felt the most consistently impactful to me is channel speed, movement speed, and special range/size, which come from Hermes, hammers, or chaos (or Apollo’s sprint). Movement helps with safety, but you can also curve the specials’ return flight and even just run fast enough that they trail behind you, so you can kinda drag them through enemies. Swift Runner arcana helps for having the special chase you

Oh, and armor damage, so you can break it more consistently before completing the triad

[teal cairn]

So, VoR 3 at underworld, is the arena size reduced during the whole fight or is it only during first phase?

[manic harbor]

Crap, I died in the second egg phase on Typhon. So close

I'll have to try that build again

[cursive gate]

Only 1st

[plush vapor]

freezer burn supay is the most insanely op thing

+static shock and zeus sprint

whew

[polar ravine]

and here i thought it was for the entire fight.........

[cursive gate]

Has he neve ran to the edge of the arena before? It's usually the indicator that the space has opened up.

[polar ravine]

i saw it once but the fight ended very soon

[cursive gate]

oh😆

If you can push through the first phase 2nd is much easier imo

[elfin forge]

chat, I got supay. Supay basic build?

[cursive gate]

Walk around + omega special = everything is dead.

I went for Hestia special and freeze cast but it feels like most things work on it, I'm sure someone can give a more in depth answer.

[elfin forge]

hm I tried zeus special and it did pretty bad damage

also does the attack do much damage or is it just for debuffs

[dense sluice]

Does the Apollo legendary double the hidden aspect on the torches?

[elfin forge]

and what mana do you aim for

[cursive gate]

I had blitz on the attack, so yeah pretty much just debuffs

Hestia gain felt like I never had to pay attention to mana at all

[atomic ibex]

Go for a strong dash boon on supay, I like Hestia the most

[trail mason]

I always try to lean for a combo of Hestia and Demeter, i feel like they work well together

[woeful moth]

TF. Eris laser attack not dodgeable. When I dash to the side I just get locked on

[craggy hull]

hel Poseidon or Hestia on the attack?

[atomic ibex]

Poseidon

[polar ravine]

i havent been able to. besides dashing though her when she starts firing and even then i get tagged for a few hits before she turns and hits me

[pliant pier]

i just feedbacked about this, and I've been saying this since day one. Even if you dash through her, she turns around and insta-locks onto you. It's an unfair fight on frenzy 2, plain and simple, and even worse with the absurd amount area denial.

Guaranteed damage in a boss fight is always bad design.

[cobalt sonnet]

i seem to have regressed in my skills 😭 any good builds with thanatos axe or momus staff besides the hera attack for the former and apollo attack for the latter? also should i focus more on having 3DD or strength trying to increase my fear?

[woeful moth]

Damn. Got it. I didn't know if even standing behind her you still get insta locked.

[teal cairn]

I feel like Apollo is the answer for both

[crystal burrow]

For momus I usually go Zeus and aim for Arc flash. Demeter and Apollo also works pretty well.

[teal cairn]

Lowkey agree with everything mentioned. I feel like H2 boss have some pretty unfair or at the very least not fun gimmicks, which compared to H1 is a downgrade

[pliant pier]

Strength is no longer objectively the best thing to take, and a lot of high fear runners (including myself) are switching to death defiances. Momus wants all of its core boons core boons filled, it's a very input-heavy and skill-reliant aspect that demands good positioning and knowledge of when to use which omegas or basic attacks. On low fear anything will work, on higher fears Hera attack and Zeus special is great.

[cobalt sonnet]

ohh gotcha on the strength/dd part, i was just relying on the information from the last time i was looking into builds

[teal cairn]

One thing I haven't seem mentioned yet is how the poison effect being introduced at VoR1 isn't clearly explained to new players, considering the first instance we see it is during a new boss battle, the player isn't prone to checking the environment until high priority targets are dealt with, meanwhile in Hades 2 the first time we see it is at an incredibly small room where it's easy to identify the fountains

[crystal burrow]

Can anyone sell Phase Shift boon from Selene to me? I took it once when Hades 2 first came out and never took it again. The magick investment and payoff seems to be terrible compared to her other boons (not counting moon water which I think is geared towards newer players)

[last cape]

phase shift is the time slow right? That thing is so insane I don't see how you need convincing tbh. Like I don't mean to be rude but I don't know how you look at the ability to wail on virtually defenseless enemies in an action game and say "meh"

It also benefits a lot from it's path of stars

[crystal burrow]

Oh ok maybe I should take it, just the way I see it is I can do just as much dmg without the time slow and the other boons she offers can let me do the same thing if not more while costing half the magick

[last cape]

I don't think any hex does as much as a maxed out slow tbh. I guess the unupgraded version is a little expensive for what it does but the path of stars gives it duration, slow magnitude, crit chance, it effectively turns into a free room clear when you trigger it

[timber pawn]

In general if the last time you picked it was the beginning of early access, hexes have changed a lot across the board

[lethal rune]

any good builds been figured out for melinoe torches yet?

[last cape]

I think the one thing about hexes that I can still criticize is the fact that just not every build wants them. Like, as a replacement for calls, not every build got the same output out of calls but they at least got output vs bosses. In hades 2 hexes can literally be a dead pickup if you aren't doing a build that uses magick

[elfin forge]

I agree. It's still unfortunate that so many weapons and builds just don't care about omegas, which means they probably don't want to pick up a hex in the first place

even if you can level up the hex to automatically charge, how much other stuff would you have to sacrifice to do so? Gold? a heart?

[last cape]

Considering a lot of new players and especially players coming over from hades 1 aren't doing magick heavy builds it's pretty easy to see why they have a bad reputation even though they're in a really good place overall

Even ones traditionally considered bad like night bloom I've been able to have some fun with when they're godsent lol

copying the right enemy with night bloom gives you a minion that can kind of just clear the encounter for you lmao. Like the olympus sentry guns go insane with it

[crystal burrow]

Also something like Lunar ray is just unusable unless the game blesses you with the one that auto aims

[last cape]

oh yeah even godsent lunar ray is kind of garbage lmao

[crystal burrow]

A boon being F or S tier based on RNG is kinda stupid IMO

[last cape]

and godsent makes it less likely you get the auto aim

[brave dove]

you can juice lunar ray enough to do like 4k damage before you get hit and the armour knocked off (and then you cancel) even without the free fire

[radiant stirrup]

gonna do my first Supay run, do you guys even bother using omega moves?

[crystal burrow]

Omega moves imo is what makes Supay broken. You can get infinite procs with Zeus' Arc Flash and Ares Cut Above.

[radiant stirrup]

I thought the whole point was just dash boon damage

[crystal burrow]

Nah its actually the other way around dash boon is just an add on, the base attack and special is what makes supay OP

[bleak gale]

Aren't most of the issues come from Surface enemies 😬

[teal cairn]

I do agree with this

[south copper]

idk what people been saying, I just beat Eris without rivals on and took no damage, I haven't done that against her rivals form at all. I might have just had an extra strong build but it feels like her Rivals form has more health too.

[haughty fulcrum]

anubis does no damage to bosses

[south copper]

be sure to use its omega on them line that line up

[elfin forge]

I think H2 bosses at a baseline, are way more fun than H1 bosses. Perhaps it is because of this that when you stack more blanket modifiers on top of them, they become unfun faster?

[teal cairn]

Generally, I'd say so, but H1 hit the mark with them, even though they were simpler. Hecate, Scyla and non Vor Cerberus are currently the only two where I feel that don't need any touch ups.

I think they'll get there, there's plenty of time to do some slight changes

[strong dawn]

Medea just needs to do less poison shots that cover the whole arena and I'd say that fight is fine

[elfin forge]

I honestly kinda like the tuning of Medea, just not Polyphemus lol

[teal cairn]

Poison isn't properly introduced as a mechanic for new players, it's a glaring issue for anyone that hasn't played H1

[elfin forge]

the game does have text and highlighting on the mandrakes if you get poisoned, but yeah, maybe medea should hint at it or something

[strong dawn]

There's plenty of dialogue around it while you're fighting and the first time you get hit they have little indicators that go to the wells

The poison isn't nearly as bad as Hades 1 either. It's just 1 a tick

[elfin forge]

I think if polyphemus's grab was normal, and his rock and stomp wave couldn't get poisoned, I would love it, no notes

[raven ivy]

any recommended build to try out with anubis? just to learn the weapon

[elfin forge]

hestia attack, demeter or hera or poseidon cast

[teal cairn]

I feel like introducing it while there's a boss with hefty damage jumping and a second set of attacks makes it too cluttered

Even with indicators

[elfin forge]

I wonder what the requirements are to get Vow of Rivals in the first place. What fear requirement? how many clears do you need?

[strong dawn]

I don't see it as a huge issue and it's a late game vow. It's not like there's going to be players that get there that are brand new.

Poison is pretty universal as far as damage mechanics go

[elfin forge]

I mean, curing poison with 4 specific pools is less universal. A lot of people so far just assume you gotta eat the damage

[teal cairn]

Exactly, especially since it's low

[strong dawn]

I thought the indicators were pretty clear and the characters have plenty of dialogue around it

[elfin forge]

you see gamers are like, deaf and blind when they are fighting

they probably also lose their sense of smell and taste and touch too, but games don't really do that

[raven ivy]

even as a person who played tons of hades 1 i didn't notice the pools and thought i had to eat the damage lmao

(then again, i died too quickly for the game to highlight the pools as you all are saying it does)

[elfin forge]

maybe the first time you get poisoned in the save, maybe the game should slow down and highlight the pools with a beam of light for a sec

[teal cairn]

We're discussing game design, it's not a place where decisions are set in stone. While one can see a flaw, other might find it perfectly fine.

[raven ivy]

Could do a camera effect before the fight/dialog and pan around the pools highlighting them then maybe?

[strong dawn]

If this was the normal boss fight I'd agree, but it's a difficulty modifier

[tough hamlet]

What do you guys think of the new torches rework

[elfin forge]

it's also a difficulty modifier with story content behind it though, so a lot more people than usual will turn it on, I feel

[strong dawn]

And on the first boss of the first zone so you're not getting kicked back that far if you get killed

[elfin forge]

I know a lot of people did Hades 1 with just EM4 on, and no other heat

[spiral wadi]

i also missed the pools, i vaguely recall seeing the game doing the thing where it created an indicator that moved towards pools, like the indicators for resources after an encounter

[teal cairn]

I think it happened with most, but since rooms were so small I assume it didn't take long for players to figure it out

[raven ivy]

They're a bit snappier like the changelog says, it's a shame aspect of mel seems really really forgettable now, but the other aspects are still going strong

[elfin forge]

I think they're fun, it just sucks that mel torches are bad now

[teal cairn]

The small rooms were key in making poison a succesful mechanic in H1. We didn't need any hand holding

[raven ivy]

i feel like they could have kept the +special time even without stacking to at least make it like a lazy mode aspect where you dont use as much magick lol

[rich belfry]

what yall build for Anubis ?

[raven ivy]

had this recommended to me for anubis

[teal cairn]

I'd just like to take a second to appreciate aspect of Anubis, such a well designed aspect.

[rich belfry]

ty

[raven ivy]

I still haven't quite grasped the appeal yet, seems a bit limited in scope

as in like i can't imagine being able to use like half the gods on the attack boon

[teal cairn]

I think it's a bit weak in comparison, but I found it really fun

[strong dawn]

I've only ever seen people complain about Anubis and not get it

[rich belfry]

it is

[raven ivy]

It just seems a bit difficult to use and slow to me so far honestly

[teal cairn]

If I had a nitpick it would be the Omega Attack. Honestly, I didn't understand what that barrier looking thing was supposed to do

[strong dawn]

I didn't notice until today that they had multiple Arcana art sets

[rich belfry]

ikr

[dusty hill]

i cannot believe i beat typhon vow of rivals in my second attempt with this hp

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1184380616054153267/1385838825091108985/image.png?ex=6857867b&is=685634fb&hm=be4b838f06dd5de83308e4a64f9e3012856bc0ce8d5ac284d52c118d65cd747a&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=495&height=278

im gonna assume typhon vow of rivals is harder than chronos, although i haven't seen him yet

[raven ivy]

now that i'm getting some boons and strategy going with anubis i'm starting to see the vision

requires a bit of finesse but it's fun setting a trap and then booking it elsewhere

[bleak gale]

well should they balance around non-Rivals vow is the question ? Notably frenzy

[elfin forge]

great question! I personally don't think so. I'd even be inclined to say that maybe Frenzy 2 should be reduced from 40% to 30%. Frenzy being a global speed modifier is just an absolute pain to design without making players faster as well.

[dusty hill]

somebody please tell me chronos unrivaled is easier than typhon

my ass will not survive otherwise

[elfin forge]

I mean just look at stuff like Devil May Cry or Doom The Dark Ages, they have speed modifiers, and they make the game harder, but the player also gets faster as well. It's up to the player to raise their skills to pilot the increased speed.

[raven ivy]

is selling bridal glow free?

[elfin forge]

they're about the same imo. people disagree about which is harder. I beat rival chronos 3rd try, while I haven't beatne rival typhon yet at 2 tries

[spare kite]

Ye

[elfin forge]

I hope it is

[dusty hill]

i kinda beat typhon out of luck really, i had almost 500 hp going at him and about 20% dodge chance

although tbf it should count more as a first try, since the actual first try ended with me getting insta killed by chronos 6 seconds into the fight

[elfin forge]

dude I had a great run at typhon, except I forgot to get another Water for Dem infusion

actual such a throw

[dusty hill]

what is it?

[elfin forge]

for big hits you take 10 less damage or something

[strong dawn]

I think they'll even out some stuff on the next pass. Feels like they overly nerfed a lot of things this time around

[pseudo pond]

any suggestions on morrigan build?

[dusty hill]

damn, that wouldve been huge

[elfin forge]

I was gonna disagree, but then I thought about it and yeah

Mint condition, Dem Infusion, Pomming Heph Gain, Strength nerf

[dusty hill]

well im about to do an underworld run to see how fares chronos unrivaled

i hope im right about him being easier than typhon

[flat flicker]

Does anyone have tips for beating Prometheus? Ive died to him like 20 times. The only time I beat him was in a chaos trial so it didn't count 😭

[elfin forge]

non rivals mode?

[strong dawn]

Yeah all the defensive things took major hits.
I don't like how the new Mint basically kills all your armor if you get hit while it's on. Makes trusty shield useless with it on.

[elfin forge]

for phase 3 the answer is... keep running lil bro, keep running

[dusty hill]

pray and believe

[strong dawn]

Feels like the devs took people in here saying the game was too easy personally

[dusty hill]

also keep your distance whenever your main form of damage is not easily usable, most of his attacks are closed ranged or can be easily dodged from afar

[strong dawn]

There's a youtube video that breaks him down.
https://youtu.be/iDfSTMw9qsI?si=2XqvhUVopj69Ld7n

[pseudo pond]

Dodge most of the telegraphed attack

[flat flicker]

Sick, thanks 👍

[pseudo pond]

A lot of his attack has pretty long delays, stop attacking and watch them closely and learn the pattern

And you will get used to it then he will be pretty ez

[strong dawn]

The TLDR is that the first phase all he does is the big, slow attacks. Second and third he does 2 shorter attack patterns then the big move. 3rd is kind of a scramble because he has the bird and some adds.

[elfin forge]

is this your playlist lol

[strong dawn]

Fav'd or something

[dusty hill]

didn't know you could quit mid fight to be able to try it again from the beggining

[strong dawn]

A lot of it is very old art reference or fighting game stuff

[dusty hill]

although it feels scummy

[elfin forge]

don't think you can?

[flat flicker]

I understand it now. I've been treating him like every other boss

[elfin forge]

honestly I kinda do lol, I'm very sloppy with prom and just rely on big D damage

[elfin forge]

oh that's why his attacks sometimes have ranged followups and sometimes don't

I thought it was based on distance and was just kinda janky if you closed the distance, lmao

[pseudo pond]

Soooo……no one has discovered any good builds with morrigan yet?

[elfin forge]

I wanna see what clean Rival Prom is

[elfin forge]

ik there are some but idk what they are lol

[pseudo pond]

Yeah, base damage is very good, but how long it takes to trigger and how bad it scales into Olympus is kinda problematic

[elfin forge]

I hear morrigan is quite good, idk

[dusty hill]

doubtful we'll get a tutorial about it anytime soon

[strong dawn]

I did Poseidon on the attack, and a status on the Special.

[dusty hill]

that fight is pretty insane

[pseudo pond]

Hmm, I tried Hera on attack Demeter/ares duo on cast

Still felt like it doesn’t scale super well into Olympus

[timber pawn]

Blitz is a good option for special. The hammers 'final slice' and 'sweeping ambush' are both very good on Morrigan as well

[strong dawn]

Mynt broke down the attack pattern to trigger the Blood Triad quickly
Dash - Special -> Hold Attack (Starts a dash attack with no animations and channels the Omega) -> Release Attack to Omega
Or Special -> Dash Attack toward enemy (hold attack -> Release Omega
Best Attack Boons: Hestia/Poseidon/Aphro/Hera
Others to consider: Zeus Special, Static Shock, Arctic Ring, Glamour Gain/Passion Rush

[pseudo pond]

Yup, had blitz on my build as well

[strong dawn]

He's @bleak night on discord and he's super helpful

[dusty hill]

whats the worst olympians to receive boons from and why is it hephaestus

[strong dawn]

Heph was busted before this patch

[dusty hill]

didn't really play a lot between last patch and this one, missed it

[pseudo pond]

But in order to trigger, you still need to wait for omega cast to go off no?

And ideally getting reduce duration on omega cast

[strong dawn]

No you need 3. Attack/Special/Omega

[pseudo pond]

Ah, I see

That’s why it feels so awkward

[strong dawn]

This set up gets you into omega attack by holding it during a dash attack.
There's some funkiness to the omega attack right now and feels like it drops sometimes

I think it procs with omega anything, tho

Special/attack or cast. I haven't tried cast tho

[pseudo pond]

Btw, you mentioned hestia on attack

Combo with Demeter nuke?

[strong dawn]

You could!
Scorch is pretty insane this patch

[timber pawn]

It does work on cast, has some value in sirens fight imo

[pseudo pond]

Yeah, for sure, I tried it with Anubis pair with zeus duo and Demeter duo, 3-8k nuke pretty ez

[strong dawn]

I swear it went off from my Poseidon waves when they hit an enemy after the omega attack.

[pseudo pond]

Also, you mention heph was pretty good before the patch, in what ways?

[strong dawn]

I'd have to play it again and pay close attention

[pseudo pond]

I always found heph to be extremely underwhelming besides the defensive boons

Boob, lol

[strong dawn]

He was a defensive monster.

[elfin forge]

heph attack and special and dash were ASS without pomming them to hell

[pseudo pond]

So, yeah, only exclusive defensive part

[strong dawn]

His attacks could be good if you went all in on him but you needed poms

I think they're better now

[pseudo pond]

Hmm, i see

[elfin forge]

heph was great for gain, secondary boons, and cast sorta

[pseudo pond]

I also kinda wished they reworked some of the duo boons

[elfin forge]

also heph and zeus have master conductor, which is kind of peak

[strong dawn]

But the defensive stuff took a huge hit this patch.
I hope they give him a little back.

[pseudo pond]

Hera’s revival enemy duo felt like a joke…..

[elfin forge]

at least I think it's peak idk the actual numbers

[pseudo pond]

And so are many other duo

[strong dawn]

I like what they did with Heavy Metal giving damage based on armor
It's just Security system seems to not gel with his other armor boons at all.

[elfin forge]

I feel like the numbers on heavy metal are kinda bad though

especially for a boon that gives armor only on pickup :\

[last plover]

cant decide between wayward son + huntress vs lovers + queen

i feel like scorch/splash builds dont care about huntress but losing wayward son is scary

[elfin forge]

man I wish I could put lovers on, would solve so many problems

[strong dawn]

Seemed the same to me.
50/75/100? With Security it acts like a hydraulic Might.

[last plover]

yeah i wish the boon rarity increased the damage scaling from armor rather than the flat amount of armor you gain

[strong dawn]

wayward is kinda...eh now that it's a flat 5.
It's good early but I have it off most of the time

[dusty hill]

did it use to be a %?

[strong dawn]

It used to be higher if you had lower health below a threshold

I think it was the classic 3 but if you were below 30% it was like...8 I wanna say

[bleak night]

[wild sun]

I just had an ant, a literal ant, cost me the fight against Chronos

It kept on distracting me and apparently "the power to pause and reflect" had been revoked or something with this recent update so I had to pause try and crush the ant crawling on my arm and then quickly get back to the fight.

[elfin forge]

you can alt tab to pause

[wild sun]

I am playing on a steam deck

I don't have an ALT-tab

[elfin forge]

maybe opening the steam menu pauses hte game? idk

[strong dawn]

I noticed that was back after I beat EM Chronos

[elfin forge]

thoughts on the Rivals boss design with Frenzy 2?

[strong dawn]

I assume he can do it again? I never pause during bosses

[bleak night]

not very good

[elfin forge]

F

[wild sun]

I was admittedly caught off guard by his new attacks as well so I sort of died on the second health bar

[bleak night]

a lot of it is just a good amount of bs on the screen

[elfin forge]

fair

rank the bosses in terms of BS to least BS?

[strong dawn]

Yeah I think there's a healthy middle ground they can get to with some of it.
The Sirens has a lot of crap on screen at once

[wild sun]

I so desperately need to beat him in his upgraded mode because that's where the new song "The End of Time" probably plays if I had to guess, and I have refrained from listening to it on Spotify or YouTube because I would like to hear it organically.

[strong dawn]

He's a doozy this time around.
I don't think anyone will accuse him of being too easy now

[wild sun]

The good news is I have further confirmation that my favorite skull build is solid as a rock. I died to pure dumb luck and visual overstimulation

[elfin forge]

it is a LOT of kiting in my experience

[dusty hill]

all homies hate the sirens

[elfin forge]

I can't imagine how you would use something like Medea against Chronos 3

[strong dawn]

The summon hex saved my ass during the second phase because I kept getting healed by a clock

[wild sun]

Huh, neat

I will say I do like that feature of his updated boss fight, the hourglasses are serving a new purpose.

[dusty hill]

ayo this man cheating

[strong dawn]

Hey I didn't know it did that!

[elfin forge]

brought a healing drone from Risk of Rain

[pliant pier]

I brought nergal to hardest Chronos, lost 3 dds in a row to p3 and died.

[dusty hill]

next patch is banning you personally

[strong dawn]

Seems fair

[dusty hill]

im trying unrivaled chronos tomorrow with the blades

[subtle cape]

Hourglass healing actually gives use to the sun worshiper effects

[elfin forge]

honestly I think the buffed P1 and P2 are hard enough lol. P3 is cinematic but even harder

[dusty hill]

beating typhon took all of my remaining brain power

[subtle cape]

Phase 3 like boiled my brain bc the background was so pretty

[bleak night]

Cerberus - Eris - Hecate - Scylla - Polyphemus - Typhon - Prometheus - Chronos

[pliant pier]

melee plus slow plus lower damage ceiling than safer aspects (nerghal, shiva) is pretty much just bad game design, but then a lot of these rivals bosses are also just bad game design

[bleak night]

well Cerberus is least BS, sorry. Chronos is the most BS

[elfin forge]

gotcha gotcha

[bleak night]

Eris has immense issues still so only Cerberus isn't bs imo

[elfin forge]

do you think surface or UW is worse lol

[subtle cape]

You just gotta be careful of attack chains from cerb I've found. Get wacked from one attack to another.

[wild sun]

Eris is still pretty easy

[bleak night]

Surface because one of the bosses is just a dps check rather than anything remotely close to skill expression

[elfin forge]

easy but design is pretty ehhhhhhh

[subtle cape]

You just stay behind Eris as per usual and she folds

[dusty hill]

haven't tried unrivaled chronos yet, but i always thought surface was harder

[elfin forge]

the rivals have definitely evened the playing field imo

[pliant pier]

@subtle cape shiva, frenzy 2. if you can't avoid taking damage while trying to kill a boss on frenzy 2, it's bad boss design.

[dusty hill]

unrivaled scylla is bs

[subtle cape]

Yeah... I read the feedback. I can only imagine

[elfin forge]

I think unrivaled scylla is chaotic and almost impossible to do hitless, but not too bad

I've been able to do Frenzy 1 Rival Scylla and lose only like, 15 hp which felt good

[subtle cape]

Scylla is so fun. Love her

[wild sun]

We stan Scylla

[dusty hill]

bullet hell like its touhou

[elfin forge]

except you can't like, move

[subtle cape]

Anyways idk if hecate knocked my rust off but after dying to her 3 times I've beaten every boss minus chronos, typhon first try

[wild sun]

Scylla is just a struggling artist in a chaotic world, we love her for pursuing her craft.

[elfin forge]

scylla is not struggling she's a bankrolled bad artist

[wild sun]

Oh wait I remember another reason I died to Chronos

[elfin forge]

Scylla might be Drake lmao

[subtle cape]

I literally started screaming when I clocked her singing in the trailer 😭

[pliant pier]

wish I could say the same, i died to frenzy 2 cerberus once and frenzy 2 prometheus twice before i beat them

[wild sun]

At the start of the second phase he did that big screen burst thing and it chopped off like 70% of my health

All of my bravado gone in an instant, that probably did a lot

[elfin forge]

I wonder if challenge people using Frenzy 2 this whole time kinda set them up for failure, because Frenzy 2 was kind of like a bandaid to make them hardmode I think. It's kinda like Frenzy 2 equals Frenzy 0 unrivaled.

[subtle cape]

Some of thse bosses be hitting so hard through strength its a Lil crazy

[strong dawn]

Prometheus is the one I'm having the most issues with right now for Rivals but I think it's more of a build issue than anything else.
Just not doing enough damage

[subtle cape]

I genuinely have no grasp on prometheus moveset. I feel like I only beat him by dps check

[elfin forge]

lol I just keep running, don't stand in the bad, run in to chuck a cast down, keep running keep running

[pliant pier]

mostly we just keep frenzy 2 on to make sure we don't get used to having it off, frenzy 2 is on for speedrunning and high fear so we have to keep it on. atp though I might just brute force a couple of 62s with trick knives and call it a day, i'm uninterested in these bosses overall

[elfin forge]

basically the way you do Chronos 3 as well

[strong dawn]

Prom is fine, it's the other guy that's getting me

[dusty hill]

the other guy

[pliant pier]

love the very fair and fun whirlwind, such enjoyable gameplay

[dusty hill]

he who shall not be named

[wild sun]

The twist that I should have seen coming

[elfin forge]

I don't disagree. It's just that the game was fundamentally not that hard, so we used Frenzy 2 to make it hard. But now the developers added their own hard mode, which I think is more interesting, but doesn't cooperate with the preexisting Frenzy 2 well at all

[dusty hill]

i find his moveset to be rather simple in comparing to proms

[wild sun]

He kind of behaves like the Minotaur

[elfin forge]

Frenzy 2 + rivals is the core of the problem, I think, and I'd be ok even to have frenzy be regular encounters/enemies only, perhaps.

[strong dawn]

It's just a new fight with a lot of other stuff going on

[dusty hill]

pretty much, just throwing random attacks hoping it'll hit you while you try to dodge prom

[rich belfry]

o love anubis

[elfin forge]

anubis is cool

[rich belfry]

just got a good run with it

[dusty hill]

what if we solve the problem by adding a new vow of rivals on top of the one we have to replace the need for frenzy lol

[wild sun]

Well anyway, I should probably get to sleep, I'll take another crack at grandpa tomorrow

[elfin forge]

gnite

[rich belfry]

anyways what our build fooorrr Morrigan ? its kinda hard to play idk what to do

[subtle cape]

Anubis is awesome just messes with brain

[elfin forge]

?

[dusty hill]

a joke, don't take it seriously

[subtle cape]

It gets BIG scorch but Im unsure if thats bc the scorch buff

[strong dawn]

#h2-builds-and-combat message
I broke down some stuff that Mynt had said on Reddit, I think

[elfin forge]

I'm just thinking you cannot make good, hard, and fair bosses work at both 100% speed and 140% speed, that just cannot happen

[vital ledge]

rival difficulty feels similar to hades 1 for me. I remember not having a chance at all at 40% speed em4, but 20% was barely doable. and we are currently bad at those fights still

[elfin forge]

you might be right and players will get good afew a few months and people are just salty, but I can also imagine a world where improvements are made just because builds are hyper optimized to brute force our way through

[pliant pier]

yeah, the expected reaction time on frenzy 2 is absurd. like, wdym i'm a human who can't react to chronos doing 5 different 0.2 second moves at the same time? gtfo 😠

it's so unserious lmao, like they made phase 1 and phase 2 hard but fair, and then they somehow completely failed to make phase 3 fair whatsoever, and it's only hard because there's a littany of undodgable patterns, not hard because your skill is being tested

[pliant pier]

they did it wonderfully for prometheus imo, and i was hoping for an amped up version of that for his rivals. instead, we got the stupidest fight in the game

[elfin forge]

again, it's important to remember that maybe they made phase 3 hard for people who never turned on frenzy

[strong dawn]

I have confidence they'll tune it better. They made Eris, Prom and month 1 Chronos solid

[pliant pier]

i don't really understand why they shouldn't take frenzy 2 into account. people turn on fear to make the game harder, and it's pretty strange to not account for frenzy 2 being turned on if people want to make the game harder. if bosses cannot be beaten on frenzy 2 fairly, they're not good bosses

[dusty hill]

has anyone tried unrivaled typhon with frenzy 2?

[pliant pier]

certainly, but people need to be letting them know that the bosses are too much

[elfin forge]

I kind of suspect that fear is like... kind of not intentional/designed. Like they'll do their best, but they don't really have a fear setup they think is "the intended experience"

[strong dawn]

It's early access, they're just putting it out there and we'll feedback it so they can see what they need to adjust.
I'm sure they're aware and if not they will be!

I'm legitmately shocked they got as much as they did into this update. I was not expecting ALL the aspects and EM4

[elfin forge]

my concern is if we have to nerf the rival bosses to frenzy 2 to be fair, then frenzy 0 suffers and becomes boring

[strong dawn]

I think right now they're just trying to get it out and in people's hands and then they'll make it "good".

[forest hinge]

hi, just fought Rival Chronos for the first time just now, and WHAT THE HELLLLLLLLLLL

[pliant pier]

eris, prometheus, scylla, cerberus, chronos, typhon are all fair without being boring at frenzy 0, and they're still fair at frenzy 2. Rivals feels like artificial difficulty with bullet spam, not skillful difficulty with learning new moves and processing them

[elfin forge]

thisi is definitely true tbh

[elfin forge]

in my opinion, they were kind of boring at frenzy 0 ngl

but maybe I would've had a good time if I unlocked rivals mode pretty early on, and then used those as the new baseline for how i think the game should be played, just like what I did for Hades 1

without ever turning on Frenzy, mind you, because that's basically what I did for H1

[pliant pier]

it depends. if you're a new player, conquering those fights is rewarding because it takes skill. of course it'll get boring as you learn the fights and eventually do them hitless. Prometheus still isn't boring at frenzy 0, if you slip up you take tons of damage, and it's easy to slip up.

frenzy should not be the hardest vow in the game when rivals is active, is my opinion

it should not make things impossible to hitless

[elfin forge]

ngl, I think frenzy was already the hardest, most defining vow in the game, even more than hordes

except void, that is

making a game 40% faster is like, something modders usually do, not something in the game, because stuff just breaks if you mess with speed like that

[pliant pier]

that's your opinion and i respect it, in my opinion it was one of the easiest vows and made the game more fun, and hordes was one of the hardest vows (in conjunction with all the other vows) and made the game less fun

[elfin forge]

I think frenzy made the game more fun, and it made me a better player, but it was the biggest possible leap in difficulty. The animations, timings, and telegraphs you are used to being shortened so much just completely warps the game.

[vital ledge]

and then you turn it off and think: "chronos, dude can you finish your attack already?"

[elfin forge]

a lot of other modifiers are stat checks, but frenzy is the one that's kind of different

[elfin forge]

precisely

[vital ledge]

always dodged too early if frenzy was off hah

[pliant pier]

we might be talking past each other. by difficulty, i mean "how hard is this once you get used to it, if you can even get used to it". of course there will be a learning curve, but there's no learning curve with frenzy 2 p3 typhon, it's just take damage while you kill him

[elfin forge]

true, but I think there are limits to how much you can "learn" to play the game when everyone else is 40% faster, and your character just isn't

if, for example, mel also dashed, attacked, and recovered from everything 40% faster, then I think we would basically have no issues

[pliant pier]

agreed, and sgg handled those limits very well before this patch. now, those limits are complete doodoo

[elfin forge]

because the limits were always meant for 100% speed, maybe

[pliant pier]

the problem is human reaction time and processing; we're not computers. how are we going to dash to the one safe location in the one safe direction when we're only given 0.2 seconds to make a decision? that's not an exaggeration either, the scythe move in p3 gives about that much time, and so do a couple of other moves

[elfin forge]

it just so happened, I think, that the bosses who were kind of easy on frenzyless difficulty happened to be just right on Frenzy.
and now that the bosses are hard on frenzyless are... broken on frenzy

[pliant pier]

agreed, and something must be done about this: namely, making it not broken on frenzy by making the bosses actually fair

[elfin forge]

I would instead propose removing frenzy on bosses altogether, and making boss design something they don't need to account for 3 different gamespeeds at

like if you imagined a good dark souls boss, and made it 40% faster, without making your roll faster, that would be the most obnoxious thing ever. That's the best comparison I can think of

[pliant pier]

i wouldn't be opposed to this honestly, if they can't find a way to make the rivals bosses more fair, it'd make sense to get rid of frenzy altogether

[brazen ore]

Yeah, I think boss fights and 40% faster are kinda diametrically opposed. I dont think you can have a boss that is fun and hard at 100% speed and fun and hard at 140%

[elfin forge]

I value the speed and free flowing combat of regular rooms at frenzy 2, but bosses kind of have to be tackled with more grace imo

it's not really a sandbox you throw the player into and say "ok buddy, there are 5 giant armored teleporting autowatchers, figure it out."

[pliant pier]

true but imo they don't need to be fun and hard at both. they're fun and hard at 100% speed for a newer player until they learn the patterns, then they're now an experienced player. Now they turn on frenzy to make them fun and hard at 140% speed and it stays that way. It's a completely natural pipeline, and people don't even need to turn it on if they don't want to

[elfin forge]

I just don't think it works like that in reality, at least when pushing difficulty like this

if you set up this series of AOE waves, and then the boss does a finisher. and you can dodge it tightly but awesomely
and then you make everything 40% faster
The player's dodge will literally throw themselves into the next aoe because their character is so slow, get combo'd into the finisher, with no way of dodging it. That sort of thing

[brazen ore]

I also don't think most people have an extra 40% reaction speed in them that stays latently available after they learn the patterns

But also yeah like the aoe attacks have to be timed based off of the players dodge for it to feel fun and fair

[pliant pier]

but most people won't have to turn on frenzy 2. most people will just beat the surface and the underworld a couple of times and call it a day. we're talking about hades 2 enthusiasts who want to complete the game, and to that end, it's completely fair to balance the bosses around frenzy 2 because it's a vow that will probably be turned on for the statues

[brazen ore]

Cause our dash has a cooldown, it's not even just reaction speed/how fast can you mash a button

[elfin forge]

again, I will look towards Devil May Cry and Doom The Dark Ages. Both of those games have speed options. The player is also equally sped up. It's still harder, but also more fun.

[brazen ore]

but then 99% of the player base is going to be like these bosses felt too easy, mid game

[elfin forge]

If you sped up the enemies and not the player, they would probably crumble into dust

ok maybe not that bad, especially in DMC, but it'd still be annoying as hell

[pliant pier]

great! once the bosses feel easy, they can turn up the fear and have their arrogance be completely shattered!

it's a completely natural transition imo

game feels easy? turn up the fear

[elfin forge]

I think frenzy is just a bad fear option then, in that case

[brazen ore]

I would rate a game negatively if it felt super boring until i turned up the optional difficulty settings that i have to work to unlock personally, i would want it to be fun at base level. Not have to figure out on my own how to manually adjust it to the way it was designed to be

I also think frenzy is not a great fear option. I think it'd be more fair if we also moved 40% faster and it was a pure reaction speed based thing. Still super tough for some people but feasible

[pliant pier]

It's not boring, though. Unless you beat the underworld on your first try, which i don't think you did. You can't say it's boring if you took multiple nights to beat the final boss.

[elfin forge]

I think I would've beat UW in like 3 nights if Eris didn't exist lol

[pliant pier]

But eris does exist, perhaps for that reason: to challenge people who are good at games

[vital ledge]

I wonder how new players see the changes over the last few patches. like chronos is a little harder now right? and some newly added minibosses feel way harder than what we had at the start

[elfin forge]

I actually think eris is (maybe intentionally) bad design. She basically feels like "Alright bucko, you can't go much further this night. If you do, there will be pain."

actually left such a bitter taste in my mouth when I realized what was happening

[fluid onyx]

Eris is a bodge for narrative pacing purposes

[brazen ore]

but we are talking about rebalancing the surface bosses like typhon who have much more tightly timed reaction speeds so they are closer to the UW bosses which i think would feel flat . I like that typhon is harder than chronos

[fluid onyx]

Trying to slow good players down so they can buy more time to tell the story

[brazen ore]

Yeah i think its a casualty of trying to do a much more involved story this go round

[elfin forge]

When I reached oceanus, and I saw she was gone on night 2, I was like "oh, ok maybe I don't need to do that anymore". then she showed up in fields and I went "Ffs bro"

[vital ledge]

would be cooler to just make it invisible heh. eris just buffs the enemies and you think you just got better after your 10th run 😛

[elfin forge]

At which point, I thought she showed up one zone later every time, and next time she would be after Fields, but nope, next night back at Oceanus because I left Hecate with high hp

[fluid onyx]

I've got frenzy 1 on, does that one turn the rival bosses basically unbeatable the way frenzy 2 does?

[elfin forge]

they're pretty ok in my opinion, but obviously results will vary for everyone

[fiery vine]

Hehe glad to hear!! It’s super strong honestly

[pliant pier]

it's fair, though. Every bit of damage you take at 0 fear is avoidable. I felt bad as well, but I felt bad in hades 1 when I was getting pummeled by those fat dudes that charge at you. but something feeling bad doesn't make it bad design imo. something being objectively unfair, as in no skill could have helped you, is bad design.

[elfin forge]

I think chronos and Typhon are really crazy for Frenzy 1 though, the aoe spam is nutty

[elfin forge]

I kinda think it's the opposite, you're forced to take damage to make her go away

[pliant pier]

that's just a mechanic to not make you feel too punished that can be exploited by people who aren't newcomers to the game. you can't analyze the beginning of the game and judge it with your skills and knowledge you acquired after the beginning of teh game.

(imo)

[elfin forge]

You basically have 3 options:
Get Eris in Oceanus, and then just don't get hit much.
Get low health after every boss, and then scrounge for healing, and be low after Oceanus and Fields as well.
Wait 10 nights.

[fluid onyx]

I think the way the difficulty systems are designed in both Hades games is that the game is expected to be nigh-on unbeatable with all modifiers active. Frenzy and Rivals making each other way harder is a feature in that respect, not a bug

[elfin forge]

the fact that time is a factor at all is just kind of lame imo

[elfin forge]

I'm also kind of ok with this school of thought tbh. It's just that Frenzy also isn't that customizable. What if you like frenzy enemy encounters, but not bosses?

[fluid onyx]

Mmm, yeah I getcha there

[elfin forge]

part of the purpose of fear and heat is to increase it to either your breaking point, or to where you like

[fluid onyx]

I wouldn't mind Frenzy being for enemies and then Rivals is basically Frenzy for bosses

[elfin forge]

but the community will decide which vows are BS at the end of the day, a few years down the line

[brazen ore]

I think for a while people thought it was literally close to impossible to do max heat H1, like mathematically so improbable to do

[elfin forge]

I would be ok with BS vows like all onions, no familiar, 1 hp, that sort of thing.

[vital ledge]

less arcana, 5 minute timer, onion. the only things I don't like. the rest is fun to juggle around to make it work for myself

[elfin forge]

oh actually, there's an idea. Perhaps there could be a second set of Vows, stuff that isn't meant for normal players, and only for true masochists and challenge runners. You could unlock it through a very endgame incantation or something.

[fluid onyx]

yeah im pretty sure like a single digit number of people has beaten 64 heat? it can't be higher than double digits in any case.

[pliant pier]

Here's the problem. You need to make sure bosses are fair with melee builds. When a boss has moves that you physically cannot avoid with one dash, it's a bad boss. Even em4 hades on frenzy 2 can be feasibly dodged with zag's one dash as long as you play like a coward and damage him at melee when it's safe. But r4 p3 chronos cannot be feasibly dodged with mel's one dash, even if you play like a coward, because there's zero opportunities to get a full attack combo off with Shiva. Nergal's attack is so pathetically slow that Chronos can do over a hundred damage during the time of the attack animation alone.

So no, it's not fair for frenzy to make rivals impossible to complete without taking a ridiculous amount of damage. Bosses that are hard because of bullet spam and forced damage, not hard because of skill, are not designed well.

[elfin forge]

this is basically elden ring talk imo

[fluid onyx]

I mean the idea is that you don't need to activate Frenzy and Rivals at the same time

[elfin forge]

"the bosses are meant for fists only" vs "swords and rolling only" vs "with a shield" vs "with magic" vs "for ranged" vs "with summons"

[fluid onyx]

You can choose to not have them both active. That's the point of self-selecting difficulty

[pliant pier]

Great, you don't have to turn it on. What if others do want to turn it on, and what if others want it to be fair (not EASY, but FAIR) with it turned on?

[fluid onyx]

I mean that'd probably be nice, and I don't mind the idea of Frenzy being enemies only, but the game doesn't need to make every combination viable

[pliant pier]

Is the answer to that just no?

[elfin forge]

at +40% speed? I literally don't think it's possible without making normal really boring

[fluid onyx]

This kind of debate can feel a little, like... "doctor doctor, it hurts when I do this" "then don't do that"

[pliant pier]

THEN MAKE NORMAL BORING! You can turn frenzy on to make normal NOT boring!

[fluid onyx]

Disagree with this tbh

Frenzy shouldn't be required to make Rivals interesting

[elfin forge]

hard disagree, because Hades 1 wasn't like that, why should Hades 2 be?

[pliant pier]

That's the whole point of fear, to make the game not boring for people who have beaten it already!

[brazen ore]

The game isnt boring without fear tho

[fluid onyx]

Yeah, hence, Rivals should make the game not boring on its own?

Idk, I think this is perfectly fine design. If you don't like the combination of Rivals and Frenzy then just don't have them active at the same time.

[pliant pier]

And it's not boring on it's own? Right? And once it's boring, you can turn on frenzy to make it not boring again? Right?

[fluid onyx]

Hell, the addition of Rivals makes Frenzy less necessary for stuff like 32 heat already

[elfin forge]

yeah that's the thing, rivals basically replaces frenzy bosses imo

[brazen ore]

And also it is only possible to do with a single build afaik (which is why was thought to be nigh mathematically impossible with the boon limiting things)

[fluid onyx]

You don't have to have Frenzy 2 on to fill out the fear meter anymore, you can just have Rivals do that instead. The game has more choice now.

I notice Rivals also gives more heat than EM did... I haven't unlocked all the bosses, is the pattern +2/+3/+4/+5? or does it stop increasing at some point

[pliant pier]

the game has less choice now, because both frenzy and rivals is not an option. If the game was fair with frenzy and rivals (and thus boring without frenzy as you say), then you could turn on both to avoid your boredom. But if the game was fair without frenzy and unfair with frenzy, now your options are limited because you can't turn on frenzy.

[elfin forge]

it's +12 total

[fluid onyx]

It literally has more choice because you couldnt have rivals and frenzy active last update, either

seeing as rivals. yknow. didnt exist.

[elfin forge]

I'm just saying that frenzy probably cannot coexist with rivals, and if we had to choose one to axe, it'd probably be frenzy. Sorry, but that's how it is

[pliant pier]

Lum, it's not a choice when it's unfair. If you had the option to walk on the sidewalk versus walking on the road, do you really have more choices than 1?

[brazen ore]

or just accept things are probably not gonna be fair at max fear, just as they werent at max heat

[fluid onyx]

Well it certainly doesn't have less choice, does it

[pliant pier]

Sir, things were not fair at max heat because of rng in boon choices, not because of gameplay. There's many more than just 2 aspects cleared on 64 heat modded, but only 2 unmodded because of the rng.

[rich belfry]

I need his acc on reddit

[fluid onyx]

This is the thing I don't think you grasp: Before, you could have Frenzy active. Now, you can Frenzy active, or Rivals active, but you can't really have both. That's still 2 choices instead of one from the previous update.

The game stops giving you rewards after 32 fear for a reason. You're not expected to have every modifier up at once. Choose the ones you like!

[brazen ore]

Is the rng not part of the game though. Like if you mod it to remove the rng in boon choices u just modded it to remove the heat that added the rng factor lol

[magic moss]

sheet has been updated for the last time for the warsong patch, thanks for the clears and for joining me everyone!

[pliant pier]

That's so disingenuous, my whole point is that frenzy plus rivals should be a viable choice, and you're steadfastly saying no for reasons like "well, you can't expect it to be fair!" I don't care to get pedantic about how many choices you have, i'm just trying to convey to you that frenzy plus rivals should have dodgeable patterns if you're skilled enough.

Do you think frenzy plus rivals should have dodgeable patterns? Yes or no?

[elfin forge]

not if it means normal has to be 40% slower then it is

[fluid onyx]

The only way for frenzy plus rivals to function would be to make frenzy worse or to make rivals worse. I don't think they should do either of those.

I mean, aside from maaaaybe making Frenzy not apply to bosses, but ehhh... that could be disappointing.

[pliant pier]

That's such a copout, you can just turn up frenzy if you find normal boring, which I've said multiple times. The whole point of the fear system is that you can make things harder if you feel like it's easy.

[fluid onyx]

I do like that the game contains some kinda complete bogus challenge you can activate if you really want to

[elfin forge]

and what do you do if it's too hard?

you uh... turn down the difficulty right?

it has to cut both ways

[fluid onyx]

"frenzy makes rivals too hard" "ok. turn off frenzy" "no." <- this conversation.

[pliant pier]

Correct! Which is why the base game is completeable by most people (not that hard), and why people can turn up the difficulty from there!

[elfin forge]

so the game is too hard when you combine some really nasty modifiers. One of the modifiers has a lot of story and game design behind it. The other modifier is just a stats tweak.

[pliant pier]

Holy god this is such a dishonest take. I could easily say "frenzy plus rivals is unfair, make it fair" "no, then rivals would be easy" "okay, turn on frenzy as well" no"

[fluid onyx]

Rivals still needs to be harder than base, though

[pliant pier]

Like, cool! you conquered rivals! Now do it harder, but still fair!

[elfin forge]

we're saying you cannot make frenzy + rivals fair without really harming the more general player experience

[fluid onyx]

If they tune down Rivals to make it fair with Frenzy than it could well just end up being free Fear

By barely increasing the challenge levels of the bosses

[sly plaza]

I’m so confused though. Nothing is making you take rivals and frenzy. The whole point of the fear system and the heat system is that you’re making a custom made difficulty for yourself at least so far as reaching all the in game benchmarks that require said mechanic

[fluid onyx]

Rivals is clearly positioned as "the ultimate fear modifier", it gets 4 slots all on its own. It's designed to be a substantial challenge, all on its own. Hell, it adds 12 whole fear just by itself.

[sly plaza]

Like if you’re pushing for like 50+ fear you’re already in like the upper 0.1 percentile of players

[elfin forge]

eh I already said my piece on Feedback, do with it what you will

[rich belfry]

So what is ur favourite aspects guys

[sly plaza]

Right now? Morg

[fluid onyx]

I'm really liking Nergal just because that bash combo is so sillyfun

SLAM SLAM SLAMSLAMSLAM

[rich belfry]

Im loving nergal

Still didn't try flames ,coat and skull hidden aspects idk I hope they r good

[brazen ore]

I like supay bc its funny

[sly plaza]

It’s so fun lol. Nergal with the healing boost hammer + various damage mitigation is hilarious

[rich belfry]

I read his story and new he is a god of war too

So i kept having Ares on attack with it forever

[pliant pier]

@elfin forge @fluid onyx Question for both of you, to really make my point here clear. You're a newish player who has beaten chronos and typhon. Now add rivals. Did the game get harder?

Yes? Then rivals is not free fear. If you walked in with experience playing hades 2, and you found rivals too easy, GREAT! THERE'S MORE FEAR TO ADD! That does NOT make rivals free fear! Your experience making rivals feel easier to you, as an experienced player, does not make rivals free fear!

Do you see now? Even if you balance the game around rivals plus frenzy, that does NOT make rivals free because it's irrational to judge rivals 4 frenzy 0 from your stance as an experienced player.

[fluid onyx]

Yes? What? Where are you going with this?

[elfin forge]

I would never turn on Frenzy at all ngl, I've played enough games to know how badly it goes

[pliant pier]

"If they tune down Rivals to make it fair with Frenzy than it could well just end up being free Fear" This is your main concern, which I just addresseed

The most reasonable place to judge fear from is from the perspective of a newish player who has beaten both routes. It's irrational to judge it from your perspective, where you already have a lot of fear under your belt.

You cannot say rivals is free fear if it makes the game harder for that new-ish player, which it WILL even if it's balanced around frenzy 2, because rivals 4 frenzy 0 is HARDER than rivals 0 frenzy 0, just like how frenzy 2 is harder than frenzy 0.

[fluid onyx]

What? No you didn't. You edited your comment after that first paragraph.
Rivals is worth 12, it's kinda meant to be a big jump. Hades 1 had a few EM challenges that were basically free fear, I recall the king/bull fight wasn't even that much harder than the base one and it gave you 3. That's what they're trying to avoid here, I think.

[lean lance]

Rivals 3 is free fear for me. For a new player, it absolutely is not, it's definitely harder, and was harder for me the first time around. Rivals 4 just makes the endbosses harder

[elfin forge]

(don't you have godmode on though I think it's kinda different then)

[brazen ore]

also im confused cause how are you saying "now add rivals, did the game get harder, great so they wont be free fear if theyre tuned down". the game got harder cause theyre tuned to where theyre at. How is that proof of how theyd work in a hypothetical tuned down situation

[pliant pier]

What does me editing my comment have to do with anything? Does it render what I'm saying completely meaningless?

12 is a big jump, true. Take phase 1 and 2 of chronos, very hard. Take a player whose best achievement is beating Chronos once on 0 fear. Will they struggle with those phases? Yes or no?

If they will, then great! Rivals is hard, but fair! I object to the nonsense in phase 3.

[dusky edge]

Does judgement interact with the vow of void?

Can you go over your grasp cap with judgement?

[pliant pier]

I'm objecting to very specific unfair patterns currently in the game right now. Phase 1 and 2 chronos are perfect examples of rivals being harder in a fair way.

[fluid onyx]

fear isn't just designed for new players, is it? the whole purpose is to create a challenge that far extends the longevity of the game.

[fluid onyx]

I'm pretty sure you can yeah

[brazen ore]

if anything its specifically designed for not new players

[pliant pier]

It's not just designed for newer players, but the standard from which you say "this fear makes the game harder" cannot be from the perspective of someone who's beaten chronos like 20 times on moderate fear. If fear makes the game harder for someone who is just getting into fear, it's reasonable fear.

If you didn't struggle with rivals because you know how to make strong builds that just damage tank, that's not "rivals being easy", that's you having a lot of knowledge of the game. The fact is, I am 100% sure you took more damage in phase 1 and phase 2 of chronos than you would have on a normal run, and that's direct proof that a fair rivals still makes the game harder. All I'm asking is that the same "hard but fair" mechanics be applied everywhere.

[pliant pier]

If fear makes the game harder for someone who is just getting into fear, it's reasonable fear.

[fluid onyx]

I mean but this conversation didnt just start with Rivals, it was specifically Rivals plus Frenzy

If you think Rivals is unfair on its own you should have just said that

[brazen ore]

yeah like each vow on its own is pretty reasonable i think (i mean i hope rivals polyphemus gets nerfed but yeah)

I have a hard time with them but i also dont have a lot of time to devote to the game and dont want to turn on god mode, but they dont feel impossible. just like a thing that will take time

[fluid onyx]

oh yeah that one is a bit silly.
overall though they're hard and thats what I like about em. they're a cool unique challenge to learn.

make the game dangerous again. they certainly earn their fear values.

[pliant pier]

Let me lay out for you exactly what it is that I am saying.

Certain mechanics in rivals plus frenzy (like phase 3 chronos nonsense) are ridiculous. Other mechanics in rivals plus frenzy (like phase 1 and 2 chronos) are fair. I want the phase 3 chronos nonsense to be tuned down to the (still hard but fair) level of the phase 1 and 2 chronos.

This entire conversation is about me getting you to accept that rivals (on the level of making chronos phase 1 and 2 harder) is a good amount of difficulty for rivals, and that rivals on the level of chronos phase 3 is bad rivals. I want you to accept that rivals (on the level of making chronos phase 1 and 2 harder) is a perfectly acceptable amount of difficulty for how much fear it offers, and that if you want the game to be even harder, you can turn on frenzy and still have it be fair.

[brazen ore]

yeah the poison is an issue i think, but not something that feels unsolvable, just maybe needs to get turned down

[brazen ore]

I think they just disagree with u man i dont think theres any getting people to accept things

[pliant pier]

we were just talking past each other, i don't think i conveyed my opinions properly

[fluid onyx]

The whole arena getting covered with poison so you just gotta duck out a minute and wait it out is... I mean it's funny but perhaps a little too much

[brazen ore]

just accept im right is not really a fair thing to ask in a conversation about something subjective as what feels fair

[brazen ore]

its so funny but the temple of styx flashbacks are painful

[fluid onyx]

Also very funny that they just straight up brought back everyone's least fave mechanic from H1. Genuinely top class trolling by SG. There is no escape.

[leaden bone]

Is the new Poseidon curse(froth) better than slip? What do you guys think? I'm not sure if it is a buff or nerf.

[fluid onyx]

I got poisoned and I was like "wait how long does this last" and then I saw the mandrake pools and I went "no....."

[elfin forge]

better absolutely

[dusky edge]

Ive been able to get way more damage from froth

[elfin forge]

I've lowkey kinda come around on the poison. It's kind of a fun mechanic, I hate Poly's grabs way more lol

[pliant pier]

Gonna copy and paste this as a finality to the conversation.

Certain mechanics in rivals plus frenzy (like phase 3 chronos nonsense) are ridiculous. Other mechanics in rivals plus frenzy (like phase 1 and 2 chronos) are fair. I want the phase 3 chronos nonsense to be tuned down to the (still hard but fair) level of the phase 1 and 2 chronos.

This entire conversation is about me getting you to accept that rivals (on the level of making chronos phase 1 and 2 harder) is a good amount of difficulty for rivals, and that rivals on the level of chronos phase 3 is bad rivals. I want you to accept that rivals (on the level of making chronos phase 1 and 2 harder) is a perfectly acceptable amount of difficulty for how much fear it offers, and that if you want the game to be even harder, you can turn on frenzy and still have it be fair.

[leaden bone]

I see. Thanks guy I was worried if they nerfed Poseidon coz one of my fav builds relied on Poseidon's curse.

[elfin forge]

I would argue that frenzy should be disregarded entirely, and that base phase 1 and 2 chronos should be buffed more, and that 3 right now is close to be appropriate

[brazen ore]

i saw someone call it a bluetooth grab when they got yanked from far away and it made me laugh

[elfin forge]

bro's gotta plug in his ethernet cable, that's what I'm saying

[pliant pier]

But your reason for phase 1 and 2 to be buffed more is to make them harder, which turning on frenzy accomplishes anyway.

[fluid onyx]

His grab's always been really jank ay

[brazen ore]

Flute solo makes up for it a bit

[leaden bone]

Has anyone found any viable builds for the Anubis aspect yet?

[brazen ore]

ive seen people say hestia attack and poseidon cast decent

[neon crown]

i like hestia attack/demeter cast for freezer burn, and if you dont want that duo boon then pryo technique is great to grab

on that note, any idea of what a morrigan build should look like

[elfin forge]

Anubis is great. Hestia attack, demeter/hera/poseidon cast, and then grab static shock and air quality if possible

got me my first Chronos Rival kill

[brazen ore]

did u use the special at all with it or nah

[delicate drift]

i mean. what else are you going to do between attacks

[elfin forge]

mostly run around to grab revenants lol

I kinda treated it like Supay, use your rush more while dodging and letting your stuff do passive damage

[brazen ore]

bet

[elfin forge]

you can use your special to apply debuffs, but they don't do a lot of damage

you can use it to yoink enemies but enemies will walk into your stuff normally anyways, except maybe some ranged enemies

[lyric summit]

Anyone been using the new Circe staff? Been using Anvil Ring and Double Clang has been quite good for damage 😮

[elfin forge]

I need to get around to it, anubis and mel have been my main staves so far

[brazen ore]

passive damage i can do. And yea that was what i wondered, whether the repositioning on that was worth using it a lot or no

[lyric summit]

What’s the main way to use it? It looked hella confusing when I first unlocked it 😅

[elfin forge]

use what, anubis?

[lyric summit]

Yeah!

[elfin forge]

we've been talking about it, Hestia attack is the play mostly, maybe Hera or Apollo. Stack Attack and Cast to create a zone of death. Enemies go inside, and die.

Run around to do stuff like grab revenants, shoot ghosts at enemies, or just damage with your dash boon

[delicate drift]

agree; hestia is definitely the prime damage attack boon but i also liked hera attack when i got it

[lyric summit]

[delicate drift]

the omega special sending enemies flying across the map is very funny

[elfin forge]

you could use your special to apply debuffs like Blitz to increase dps, or you could not it's not that important

[delicate drift]

so make sure to do that at least some of the time

[elfin forge]

like I beat chronos with no special boon

[open vine]

Oooh, that sounds nice! Haven't yet, I've only had two non-Chaos Trial runs since. One was with the new Aspect of Persephone, because I'd been using that when the patch dropped mid-run (while I was at work -- I'd saved and quit before, got home and updated and finished the run after. ^^; ) and it was really interesting! But that and then wanting to see how Aspect of Selene plays with the Ares Hex Duo has used up my so-far-limited post-patch game time ^^;;;

[lyric summit]

I’ll give that a go. Kinda wanna try and 32F all of the new ones over the weekend

[elfin forge]

stacking Hestia stuff is like, the closest a run has gotten to feeling like a risk of Rain 2 run lmao

meaning "you do one thing and everyone dies through chain explosions and lightning and debuffs"

[lyric summit]

Yeah I’ve been trying out a lot of things with Circe like Prominence Flare/Local Climate which have been pretty nice

And the ares one I can’t remember the name of

[analog ether]

Meat Grinder?

[elfin forge]

oh yeah you can stack Omega Cast stuff now

[open vine]

(Selene's Coat plus Ares Hex is... it's alright! Not sure how I feel about seemingly having to start your run with the Ares trinket to get the duo in your Path of Stars, and it's likely not the best Hex Duo for wailing on a single Warden or Guardian, but if you're dealing with a crowd, where you don't need to worry much about the Wounds cooldown being an issue? Yeah.

[quasi granite]

what main boons are suggested for the aspect of anubis?

[delicate drift]

#h2-builds-and-combat message

[elfin forge]

isn't the hex able to bypass the wounds cooldown or something

I wonder if attack speed affects stuff like tick rate for Anubis or spinning speed of Supay

[open vine]

I wish I could confidently answer this in either affirmative or negative, but I lost track of how the numbers changed with it. Apologies... to you and to myself, because that's something I had been wondering, too! Just got too swept up in everything else about the run. ^^;

[quartz parrot]

Can somebody give me a build for black coat no aspects ?

[open vine]

What I can affirmatively say, however, - and this is unrelated to the Ares Duo Hex - is that when you pair Blitz Strike with Thermal Dynamics, and throw the Zenith (blue/rare/Bright) Sky Fall upgrade in the mix... ooh, that hits. And then it keeps hitting >:3

[elfin forge]

No aspects??? Idk use Hestia attack it's really good

[quartz parrot]

but if i use aspects what which ones should i use

[dry lava]

What is double clang?

[open vine]

Well, Zeus Blitz plus Hestia's Scorch with the Thermal Dynamics duo boon letting Blitz effects apply piles of Scorch damage definitely worked out real well for me, and none of that going as well as it did was contingent on using the Aspect I was, just the common (non-Hidden-Aspect) parts of the Black Coat's attacks and specials.
For the Hex part... Twilight Curse can get'em with Blitz+Scorch (and more!) if you have Twilight Curse's Infection sublime (purple) upgrade. Dark Side works with the Resonance or Splendor sublime (purple) upgrades, though *especially Resonance because the attack is rapid-fire and that's a lot of blitz/scorch applications. (Plus, of course, the Aspect of Selene Hex with its Zenith (Bright/blue) upgrade.

[vital ledge]

chaos doesn't know how arcana work 👀
no DDs or strength, thanks game I guess

[lapis star]

what hammer should i go for medea

[quartz parrot]

scorch on atack?

does chronos have 2nd phase

[icy quail]

What's the best combo to use with morrigan? I found this post which shows a nice combo, but does anyone else knows what's probably the most optimal way?

https://www.reddit.com/r/HadesTheGame/comments/1lebu2o/hidden_blades_fast_combo_example/

I have been trying going in with Omega attack, then a basic attack and special. It works fine if you have something like demeter attack

[willow phoenix]

Probably something with specials as combo extender. The special and o special can hit multiple times so it can be part of two triads if you pop it fast enough

Probably something like this for triple triad

[lapis star]

can you unlock Hercules last heart yet?

[grizzled tartan]

Anyone know how to play skull hidden aspect?

[willow phoenix]

yes

[willow phoenix]

o special then attack

[loud terrace]

Double anvil ring = double clang.

[loud terrace]

Yeh unlimited skull spam, the range is abit short though, it basically mimics the adament rail from H1 but with less range.

[lapis star]

do i have to beat maxed fear run for that or smth?

[willow phoenix]

just beat him at rivals 3, maybe requires multiple tries

you also need to burn through some dialogues with him before the event triggers

[pseudo pond]

Any build idea for hel? So far only tried Poseidon attack and Zeus special

[delicate drift]

how does the core slot priority thing work? with no filled slots, what does the distribution look like for what can be offered?

eg with no attack, special, rush, cast, or gain boons, is it possible to get offered boons that do not fill one of those slots? and if so, how much less likely than if all slots were theoretically filled?

[willow phoenix]

I like Poseidon attack, static shock, if possible with master conductor and arterial spray. For special ares or hera is good.

Aphro on special is good too if you get island getaway

[brave dove]

interesting note: ares godsent seems to ignore the wounds cooldown

[willow phoenix]

It's possible, the game will try to push main core boons as options but it's entirely possible to get a non main boon as an option. You can try with just the first boon with Olympian keepsake

For example Zeus can offer static shock, power surge, and divine vengeance as the first boon

[delicate drift]

hmm

[willow phoenix]

Yeah it's always wound damage but it still counts as wounds, so if you have ares attack it won't trigger

[delicate drift]

i was hoping for a more specific answer, but i guess there isn't one. thanks anyway

[brave dove]

oh, yeah you don't want to double up on wounds

[brave dove]

There is but you want the speedrun discord for the maths breakdown.

though actually wait is it even on there, it might be on mininet's high fear doc instead

basically it's heavily prioritised to get a core boon

[willow phoenix]

Considering you need to start with ares keepsake it's pretty likely you'll have wounds in your build unless you want to aim for like Cut Above first or sword ring ig

[brave dove]

sword ring, stabbing rush, mutual destruction, plasma boons

[delicate drift]

oh?

[willow phoenix]

Yeah but like the others as first boon option is just bad for selene lol

[brave dove]

well now I'm trying to remember where I've seen the maths because I have - to summarise basically they're heavily prioritised if you have none of them, kinda prioritised if you only have one and then basically not prioritised once you have two

[delicate drift]

oh really

[brave dove]

honestly I'm not sure ares or attack or special is like, good on selene

[delicate drift]

thats very interesting

[brave dove]

but you can get non-core boons if you have 0 cores it's just kinda unlikely in comparison

[willow phoenix]

Looking at strictly the effects, Ares aid is at least bottom two alongside Poseidon imo. Which combined with the ares keepsake first requirement just makes it kinda worthless for me

Not to mention it overlaps with the other Sky Fall upgrade for attack boon

[fluid onyx]

Which familiar(s) are best with Circe staff's ability? I know some of em move different, like mr frog

[glass tapir]

I didn't like the frog for it at all. Hecuba seemed good

[willow phoenix]

Probably raki, gale is good too

[brave dove]

raki is the best IME in terms of positioning

[vale grail]

how does charon axe work with boons like demeter hestia and zeus?

[quasi granite]

what main boons are the best for aspect of nergal?

[lone depot]

Can someone explain to me what the omega attack of Supah does? Attack faster?

[twin lynx]

This is not super definitive or anything, but just plain old percent increase boons worked great for me. Ares, Demeter, hera, apollo, aphro*. Mostly focused on the attack, am not super sure how to make the special work. I found Demeter to be probably the easiest to make work with the berserk effect, freezing enemies in place to just mash the full attack string and heal off them safely, though I also found success just putting freeze or aphro onto the cast to a similar degree, freeing up potentially other main attack boons. It’s pretty versatile in that sense, just whack things with big numbers.

*Aphro boon might not always activate on the final hits of the expanding spin attack? I haven’t tried an aphro strike run but you could easily just not focus on spins if that is the case, shame though that might be.

Overall a very fun weapon, if a little simple pure moveset terms

[quasi granite]

Thank you so much this helps so so much

[twin lynx]

I mean, it’s a big damage club, there’s really nothing to it. Just shmack things and crack their skulls lol

Avoid the non % boons on the attack tho

[fiery vine]

I had a really fun run doing hestia special boons, if you can get the hammer upgrade to have your omega special activate twice, then random "your omega special shoots out waves." or "fire balls" boons, it's a whacky build but it works

Oh wait forgot to add, you also want to get some ways to apply weak, and pray that you get the Hestia and Aphrodite duo boon

[twin lynx]

Oooh might try! It always seemed weird considering it’s effectively a similar range to just attack to use it over the special

[fiery vine]

That makes fire absurd

[quasi granite]

Oo that souunds interesting, thank you!

[twin lynx]

On another note

How the hell to make Anubis staff work? I do not understand the weapon

[fiery vine]

The omega special gives you nice mobility, just fire special boons, weakness applying boons, duo weak and fire boon,

[fiery vine]

Oh god yeah i had such a bad time with this, managed to beat typhon but was not fun

omg I was saying the wrong name above whoops

[twin lynx]

It just seems kind of clunky and bad right now, like you’re pulling enemies into yourself but have zero quick close combat options

And the field is not large without the hammer

And it’s such pathetically low damage without like Poseidon or status effects

[fiery vine]

you want HESTIA and APHRODITE here lol, not hera

[fiery vine]

Yeah I ended up using zeus on attack, then the hammer keepsake, and got lucky with the extra attack field, then used hera attack boons so that everything just took major damage from the omega attack when it landed

[twin lynx]

I don’t understand the way you’re meant to fight bosses with Anubis, like I get that it’s meant to be a crowd clearer weapon??? But how do you fight single enemies lmaoo

It’s conceptually super cool and unique but it’s just so jank right now

Not a “never cook again” level thing more just “please check your oven settings I do not know what went wrong”

But yeah how to make it work anywho

[fiery vine]

Oh wait I gotta show you this crazy umbral flames build that I had, I ended up getting 198% movement and attack speed against chronos, literally went so fast i could control my character anymore

oh i cant post videos here damn

[twin lynx]

My first thought was Zeus too but like, how to deal fast damage to proc blitz without dragging enemies into melee range with my one good ranged option

Because you can so easily accidentally reset the regular attack I hate it

[fiery vine]

Blitz? tbh I never use blitz, I just use the lightning bolts that comes off enemies when struck

[twin lynx]

??? But you said you took Zeus attack???

Static shock?

[fiery vine]

actually one thing I HATE about the anubis staff is that the "Omega attack" only counts for that LITTLE field that's placed outside of the main circle, the main circle counts as just a normal attack field...

[fiery vine]

i don't remember the boon names tbh

[twin lynx]

God why does the omega attack have a dead zone

It’s so bad dude

[fiery vine]

I used hera on my actual like... attack damage? the lightning bolts don't override the attack boon

but... it's still technically an attack boon?

[twin lynx]

Yeah so you’re talking about the chain lightning boon?

The one that makes you prime mana

And adds a little extra damage on all strikes?

[fiery vine]

yeahhh that one

[twin lynx]

I mean, I guess? But using a % boon on this feels so bad because the base damage is dogwater

Like I don’t get what to do with this thing at all

Idk man but like

The new meli staff is kind of bonkers

Remember hestia gun from H1?

This feels a little like hestia gun from H1

And it’s kind of awesome

[pseudo dust]

Is there any visual indicator for what counts as close for aphrodite attacks?

[twin lynx]

I wish lmao

But yeah like

I kind of feel like mel staff is probably a little too strong for how easy it is? Like 100 base damage on a relatively spammable shot, even if it locks you in place for a moment, it just provides so much value for so little effort, like I just point and things kind of die

To the point that even though it makes the omega attack do more damage too I’m pr sure, I almost never used it bcos base shot just does so much damage on its own

[cosmic steppe]

What are the perfect gods for Morgan

I suppose it's a huntress heavy aspect that doesn't benefit from regens that put you at 100% easily

[twin lynx]

Imo basically anything works, the three piece combo just does that much, but I found Hestia to work well on attack, since the multi hit goes so fast

Poseidon didn’t work with that however, annoyingly, only activated off the first hit

Tbh morrigan is a little clunky but in a cool way

It’s not so much about the direct damage, it’s about how effectively it lends itself towards the three piece

Freeze and scorch seem like obvious effects to benefit from this imo

[brave dove]

this isn't that much damage compared to skulls

like aspect of medea does over 400 damage baseline

[twin lynx]

Yes but skulls aren’t near instant, have an ammo count, and explode rather than pierce enemies

[twin lynx]

I am aware, however it is extremely spammable and safe most of the time

Medea is uh, not that. It’s basically a melee weapon, no?

[brave dove]

while that's true if you're not running fear you can more or less just heal through everything

but also I think there's two other staff aspects with more damage more safely - circe and anubis

[twin lynx]

Fair, maybe it doesn’t hold up as well on higher fear, but it does feel a little bit low effort higher reward

[brave dove]

without even talking about supay which is by far the most 'low effort high reward' aspect

[twin lynx]

?? Anubis??? Damage??? Please tell me how

[brave dove]

hestia attack

static shock if you can get it, and air quality is obviously incredible

[twin lynx]

So you’re basically just doing her cast on the attack slot?

[brave dove]

more like a souped up version of her cast, attack has much better numbers

[twin lynx]

I mean, man, that’s so boring, but fair enough lmao

[brave dove]

I mean you wanted safe damage :p

just drop the attack field down and leg it

[twin lynx]

Tbh Anubis is super weird right now tho right

[brave dove]

hidden aspects are always a little strange, anubis isn't overly out of line

[twin lynx]

I think it’s by far the weirdest one, though ive not seen the skull one yet

Shiva one rules :)

[brave dove]

supay takes away your regular attacks idk that anubis can claim to be weirder than that

see I feel that shiva is clearly the worst because it's just so damn slow and clunky

[twin lynx]

Touché

[quartz parrot]

which aspect should i use on black coat

[twin lynx]

Elephant rockets for point blank :)

[quartz parrot]

ASPECTS

[twin lynx]

Ok however consider: big numbers:)

[brave dove]

morrigan has big numbers

[twin lynx]

Shiva for funny number

[brave dove]

medea has bigger numbers-

[twin lynx]

Morrigan has one big number every cycle of setup

Shiva has continuous big numbers once it’s setup is done

[brave dove]

the oattack damage is really high all by itself, particularly since sweeping ambush is one of the better hammers for it

[quartz parrot]

black coat ?

[twin lynx]

SHIVA

[plush beacon]

I actually just came here to ask if it’s known that it’s inconsistent, like cardio gain etc won’t register its attack ticks, but stuff like scorch will

[brave dove]

they're all fine, mel is technically the best known time

[twin lynx]

I’m saying try Shiva lmao

[quartz parrot]

whats that

[brave dove]

it's a bit buggy yeah - for example poseidon attack won't proc every hit on the regular attack but it will the oattack

[twin lynx]

Oh right hidden aspect

[brave dove]

also do you know the fast combo for morrigan

[quartz parrot]

i can try and unlock it

[twin lynx]

If it’s trick knives into omega that’d be hype

[brave dove]

morrigan can't get trick knives

[plush beacon]

I’m guessing it’s Ospec there and back two procs?

[twin lynx]

Damnit lol, no then

[brave dove]

it's dash-special-hold attack, gives you a 0 frame dash attack that instantly starts charging

[twin lynx]

A part of me wishes omega moves counted as the version of their base attack

[brave dove]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/778505838003879938/1384654029409357824/Morrigancombos.mp4?ex=6857d44e&is=685682ce&hm=03bb904299b0cc34180e58dc79d0941fd67be1c4003ecf2593aebac95df74012& credit to mynt etc.

basically never do the first hit of your normal attack combo, it sucks, use dash attacks to skip it

[twin lynx]

Oh yeah that’s the good stuff

Thanks!

[quartz parrot]

so to unlock hidden aspects i have too beat chronos !?

[brave dove]

hidden aspects are lategame yeah

[quartz parrot]

to be fair i almost got him last encounter

[twin lynx]

Man it feels weird thinking that some people haven’t gotten to chronos after playing in EA for so long

[twin lynx]

I believe in u 🙏
you got this

[quartz parrot]

i bought EA 2 days ago

im a bit of a hades 1 addict so im familiar with stuff

[twin lynx]

Hey, nice! Hope you enjoy the game! I’m a huge fan of this update so far, it feels so so close to being a finished game at this point it’s tantalising

But yeah just have fun if you’re not super far in yet, I can’t be sure what you’ve even got unlocked so like

[quartz parrot]

is it ok that i bought aspect of selene bought

[twin lynx]

? Of course?

[quartz parrot]

like is it good

[twin lynx]

Oh, sure, i like it better than nyx aspect at least, not tried the arms besides Shiva on current patch tho so idk

That said I don’t really vibe with hexes super well

[quartz parrot]

i like the healing one the most

[twin lynx]

? What now

Oh moon water yeah, that one’s probably the most consistently useful ime

Just takin a lil sippy between fountains is nice

It’s like an estus flask almost lol

[quartz parrot]

how do i get flux for aspect of nyx

[twin lynx]

Fully do not remember but honestly don’t bother right away it’s kind of ass

[bleak night]

[twin lynx]

Unless it got reworked a bunch anywho?

[quartz parrot]

but you need all aspects to get secret ?

[bleak night]

I like Wolf Howl even if it got nerfed to 50

[twin lynx]

Wolf howl is also pretty good if just for it’s invuln letting you GTFO whenever

And yeah it’s honestly not bad for just crowd clearing

[twin lynx]

Aren’t you still trying to beat chronos lol

[quartz parrot]

ye just asking

[twin lynx]

Don’t worry about it for now lmao, you’ll find the stuff you need eventually

Though it might be in chaos gates? I’m not 100% sure but it sounds familiar

[quartz parrot]

ok

[twin lynx]

In any case though this probably isn’t the chat to ask for help unlocking stuff from, might be more active channels than this with a different focus?

[quartz parrot]

ok

last run i got a zeus atack that was heroic and level 12

[brave dove]

it is, flux was formerly known as 'plasma'

aspect of nyx is pretty legit now that the extra hits apply your attack boon

[steel sequoia]

so its a B + charge cast + dash attack ?

[twin lynx]

Sick I have a functional long term memory, good to know

[brave dove]

I wouldn't use omega cast for blood triad unless you have winner's circle, use oattack

you can theoretically do double hit combos with ocast but I wouldn't try it, very few bosses have windows long enough and none of them do with rivals and frenzy 2

[steel sequoia]

oh ok, missread that ty

i thought you needed to do omega cast to work

[brave dove]

nah any omega

[steel sequoia]

there is a cooldown for triad or as fast as you do it triggers again?

[cosmic steppe]

20f granddad DONE

[brave dove]

nice nice!

[cosmic steppe]

I love Morgan

[brave dove]

that with rivals 4?

[cosmic steppe]

Nah it was my first night with rivals 2

Need to gut eris now

[brave dove]

good luck she's got a gun

[cosmic steppe]

Uh, and with that my knife testaments are gone

Not in HUGE need of nm right now but still feels eh not progressing via runs

[quartz parrot]

wait can scorch activate blitz

[split igloo]

getting really really sick of rivals polyphemus. never gotten angry playing first hades or this one, until now. specifically using the sister blades

[bleak gale]

Is Godsent Hex really that bad?

It was trying to copy God Call, but even then God Call wasn't that good or game-changing to begin with, only 2-3 God Call is really relevant IIRC

Feels like it's more for flavor than viability ngl

[brave dove]

some are nuts some are kinda eh

some are eh but become nuts with Task Force, a new athena boon that gives +X godsent uses per location

the only one I'd say is pretty eh under almost all conditions is moon water

[quartz parrot]

I have upgraded my moon water this run and i have 8 charges and the heal for 35

[surreal hazel]

I was so caught up in the new aspects to notice, but the new circe and persphone aspects are bonkers now

[quartz parrot]

Hey guys do you think im gonna beat chronos for the first time

[cursive gate]

I take it the lack of an update it was a no?

[cosmic steppe]

20f Typhon, I'm becoming a gamer

[plush vapor]

its too op tbh

esp with the new infused hexes

[twin lynx]

I’m not familiar with the new ones? But like you’re still taking multiple Selene rewards to upgrade it fully right? It’d have to be pretty crazy

[plush vapor]

true it is a lot of investment
but if u upgrade it early so u fountains give u more even when u have used left u can just hoard loads of healinfg

[plush vapor]

the infusion makes it so a bunch of heals are also spawned when moonwaters used

[willow phoenix]

Eh it's only once, it's pretty much the worst godsent outside of ares imo

+20 heal and some magick once every location is not good compared to what other godsent can do or even what other sublime upgrade on moon water can do

[plush vapor]

mm true

what does ares' do

[willow phoenix]

Wound on skyfall, basically +50 damage on every beam

It's bad because

• You need to start with Ares on 1st biome
• Wound overlap
• Redundant with the other Skyfall upgrade that applies attack boon to skyfall

[plush vapor]

ah

[brave dove]

it's not redundant because wounds from the godsent effect ignore the cd

the actual issue is that afaik taking the godsent hex node doesn't allow you to take grievous wounds still

[willow phoenix]

It's redundant because if you pick ares and put it in attack, that upgrade becomes dead

[brave dove]

why would you do that

you can idk, have both aphro and ares attack on skyfall instead

[willow phoenix]

Aphro is useless

[brave dove]

@_@

[willow phoenix]

The upgrade doesn't apply the %damage

[brave dove]

oh it doesn't? in that case, poseidon or zeus

[willow phoenix]

Still weak when you can just have a sublime upgrade otherwise

Godsent at bare minimum needs to be better than the sublime upgrade it replaces, since it's only single use per location

[burnt mason]

hey hey , whats the best combination for the judgement , as in to get the most cards u can start with

[sudden inlet]

Is it just me or is Scorch kind of cracked this update? On Aspect of Eos I was constantly hitting damage cap with the Daybreaker proccing it as well.

[bleak gale]

Does Scorch + Air Control still works

[willow phoenix]

Yea it's very strong, especially if you get pyro technique

[tall notch]

Would yall say high rarity pyro beats freezer burn?

[willow phoenix]

Probably at base, but you'll outdamage air control pretty easily imo with enough damage buff

[woeful moth]

TF. Are em bosses even dodgeable?

[willow phoenix]

Why not both

I think you can do both since the nuke from Pyro is capped now, I think I got like 4k max. The buffed scorch numbers allow you to reach cap even after pyro imo. Then you need to wait freeze cd before you can do freezer burn again so your scorch should be doing some damage then

[sudden inlet]

… Yes? The problem with EM is the visual clutter in a good amount of the fights. Polyphemus, Eris, Scylla, and Hecate all have this issue.

[willow phoenix]

After you fight them a while they're pretty dodgeable

[sudden inlet]

Polyphemus you’re straight up dodging poison, dodging shockwaves, barrels, etc.

It’s not that the fight is hard it’s just there’s a lot to keep a track of.

[willow phoenix]

The only one I'd say has some bs moves is Chronos with clones, time slow, and orbs

[fickle glade]

Omega Attack, Special then attack

Special can be use to trigger when close or behind the enemy

[sudden inlet]

The EM4 Typhon fight is some boshy purely because ||you literally cannot hurt Chronos and he has access to nearly all his attacks, if not all of them||

[willow phoenix]

At first it's pretty daunting but after a while he's pretty manageable compared to Chronos imo. Chronos has some stupid move combination that just forces you to step back or just force you to take damage with that time slow

Dunno with frenzy though

[sudden inlet]

Right now I’m just doing Rivals with no added fear haha, don’t have the patience for a sped up Poisonphemus or Eris

[willow phoenix]

Like I'm sure with enough patience I can no hit rivals Typhon, but that's not the case with Chronos

[woeful moth]

Cerberus circle attack is not dodgable :( . The whole center arena is covered with these things. And they don't even let me leave it

[willow phoenix]

They don't explode at the same time

[solemn loom]

Patch 9 - Week 1
https://h2crossroads.pages.dev/
||https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1272385014150991875/1385992275854888960/Screenshot_2025-06-21_at_10.38.14_AM.png?ex=68581565&is=6856c3e5&hm=94c798e1589a0afd55a4f76172c16ec8fa520638148b1099a2dc932b530ccec9&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1286&height=792||

[woeful moth]

There's a gap in between the circles, the the dog also covers that area by either slaping or shooting something

[woeful moth]

Are the explosions randomised? Or is there a pattern?

[willow phoenix]

I don't really notice any pattern but they always come in sequence, so the latter circles always explodes later

[sudden inlet]

Calling Supay the least interesting aspect is wild

[magic moss]

it really is, you just run around

[brave dove]

leave supay alone it's fun ;_;

[quartz parrot]

When i can i will try it looks cool

[brave dove]

it's just a really nice change from other weapons to give your hands a bit of a rest

[untold zodiac]

one button build aspect

[lean lance]

It's great for when I'm tired and should probably be sleeping, yeah

[viscid patrol]

I don't get why, but over more than 75% of my surface runs can never seem to survive past the Thessaly Guardian, no matter what weapon I'm using.

[fiery vine]

Omg I just had one of my best ever builds with the circe staff, and I didn’t even manage to get the crazy duo boon that I was attempting for. Which would has like doubled my damage…

But even without that, it was the fastest typhon kill i’d ever had to date

It was super awkward early game, but near the end game, this thing cleared everything

[split igloo]

aspect of hel on skull is so broken lmao

very balanced weapon

[fiery vine]

You mean the octopus thingy? Yeah not a fan of that one either

[viscid patrol]

No, I mean Eris.

I can count on one hand, the number of times I've made it to Mount Olympus.

[split igloo]

Eris is easy af just use the stone covers when she amps up her weapon

they are there for a good reason

[fiery vine]

Oh… I find her a little easier lol, once you get the timing down of her guns, she’s one of the easier bosses. Although her movement can be a big pain with slower weapons or omega charge builds ://

[viscid patrol]

Ya, my reaction time & field of vision suck beans

[split igloo]

Skull , and staff weapons hard counters her btw

[fiery vine]

The whole timing thing goes out the window once you start stacking the enemy speed testament stuff

vow of frenzy

I feel like I just can’t play with that vow lol, all my timing stuff goes straight out the window

[split igloo]

Do you use max frenzy?

[viscid patrol]

Bold of you to assume I'm not on 0 Fear before betting the Surface once.

[fiery vine]

I try to avoid even the first level of it if I can, I noticed especially with Eris, it makes her SO much harder

[split igloo]

vow of frenzy +3 aint even that bad

[fiery vine]

won’t catch me doing this

[split igloo]

+6 is where it gets sort of tough

Anyone else here used aspect of hel btw (call back to eris weapon but more fun)

[wintry ore]

does anybody have tips for how to dodge rival typhon's stupid freaking back to back tongue slam aoe attacks

[split igloo]

You run up to his face when he charges it up

[fiery vine]

If you want a “cheese” build, my opinion is:

axe of charon with apollo special boons, and any cast damage stuff you can find

or

skull of persephone with hera boons, try to get the daedalus hammer upgrade that makes shots return from your omega special

[split igloo]

His tongue slash doesnt hit you when you're up to his face

[viscid patrol]

I don't get it, I finally clock my first W against grandpa, and I'm still falling on my face against the toxic god of war fan.

[fiery vine]

These 2 builds were probably the easiest clears for me

[split igloo]

@fiery vine id say master on skull weapon aspects you will make eris boss look like a joke

[wintry ore]

oh i'm not talking about the attack where he slashes it across the screen, i mean the one where he slams it down and there's the red circles. i can dodge one or two but he does it like four times pretty quickly

[fiery vine]

I want to try a hel skull with maximum attack speed on the valkyrie buff thing, I got a 198% attack speed buff against chronos with the umbral flames weapon and it was so fun

[split igloo]

you just have to master timings

[open vine]

Mmainly I found getting Eris down to be a matter of learning her attack patterns and tells plus, yeah, using the cover available when she’s got double damage.

Also, she was the end of at least a good half-dozen attempts before I got my first win against her, and likely more than that, so don’t worry about getting stuck in her for a while.

[split igloo]

hermes dash boons works wonders for this

[split igloo]

didnt the torches get nerfed to the ground

[wintry ore]

ughh i was afraid i'd just have to get good 😭😭

[fiery vine]

I recorded that build actually, I can show you how broken it is lmao

[split igloo]

because iirc you cant stack the orbs anymore?

[fiery vine]

Yeahhh I noticed that, but still it was a crazy run

[split igloo]

the zeus build basically was the problem so they changed how it works ig

i remember abusing romantic spark with the zeus build on torches

and stacked with white antler

2 taps and the boss is melted

thats the reason why i think it got hard nerfed

[fiery vine]

I'm uploading the vid now hold on

[fiery vine]

ahh i sadly never got to test that then lol, didn't play the umbral flames weapons much

[split igloo]

ok can someone tell me if im using it wrong or does aspect of anubis fkin suck balls

[fiery vine]

I only just started talking in this server 50 hours into the game, didn't know meta builds at all

[split igloo]

thats the only aspect i dislike

[fiery vine]

yup that's been everyone's gripe atm, i managed to beat typhon with it, but man it sucked

[split igloo]

like what tf where they thinking i even stacked it with apollo legendary and it does barely any damage

[fiery vine]

hera + zeus chain lightning on attacks, and daedalus hammer keepsake that double'd the omega attack field, struggled a lot with it still

the shades however? completely useless past mid game, they were SORT of okay when I got the hammer upgrade to give them a 75% respawn chance, it was good for room clears but useless against bosses? weapon needs a slight rework for sure

[split igloo]

I havent tried the axe yet so need to farm more stones but the aspect of hel and aspect of morrigan are so insane

and btw aspect of shiva is also fkin terrible lmao

imo worse than anubis

[jagged scarab]

the omega special on the aspect of shiva is so slow

[fiery vine]

oh I had such a good run with the aspect of nergal, fire boon special, weak duo boon so fire damage doesn't decrease, daedulus hammer upgrade to double special

[willow phoenix]

try Hestia on attack, if you have apollo legendary just spam the o special tbh

[fiery vine]

I also had an apollo run with a legendary boon that doubled the omega special AGAIN, but that was worse

[split igloo]

thats the issue the special is so slow its pointless

[willow phoenix]

The O special on anubis is very very strong, you can clear whole rooms with just it

[fiery vine]

mmm i didn't feel that, it drag enemies towards you usually, just putting you at risk lol

[willow phoenix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LskUfFt0tBg
Not the best example since I keep running out of magick but this

[split igloo]

its still lackluster compared to other staffs tbh

[willow phoenix]

the drag is very big so a lot of the enemies will get hit by the aoe of o spec

my complain with anubis is the lone shade mechanic feels like an afterthought with how powerful both attack and special are

[fiery vine]

okay getting those daedalus special upgrades on any staff is kinda busted lmaoo

[split igloo]

asoect of hel imo is the most broken of the new aspects

[willow phoenix]

anubis has bigger base o spec damage than even mel staff

and the vacuum makes it so you clear rooms much faster

[split igloo]

poseidon with froth build and freezeer burn build were insane

@willow phoenix have u tried shiva...

[willow phoenix]

shiva is nice

elephant rockets make the aspect much easier to use

[split igloo]

the way its designed is terrible

[fiery vine]

currently getting the mats for this

[willow phoenix]

I usually just spam the o spec near me with born gain to buff up first rather than throwing the o spec to enemies

[fiery vine]

need 1 more typhon kill

[willow phoenix]

since it's slower if you throw it far

the attack damage gets very big with the destruction buff

[fiery vine]

what would u recommend for first shiva run?

[split igloo]

they need to buff the speed on the omega base special i cant keep relying on hermes and chaos

[willow phoenix]

probably just born gain and apollo special

some good attack boon for the big damage

I do agree it's a bit clunky but the potential damage on Shiva is very big

oh get hex too since shiva eats through magick very fast

[split igloo]

Btw aspect of morrigan is nuts with ares legendary

[willow phoenix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5RRM7KV600
like this you can spam total eclipse lol

[split igloo]

you get your combos super fast

@willow phoenix try heph special and ares base attack and try to get both legendaries on morrigan aspect

busted

[willow phoenix]

if you get lucky with the hammers you can get some insane triad damage

[split igloo]

tbh morrigan relies on a bunch of hermes and ares stuff

[willow phoenix]

Heph with Zeus is also good with Morrigan too since static shock is good with it

[split igloo]

to boost its speed so you can proc the triad damage faster

blood drops + hermes works wonders

[willow phoenix]

I think more of it is just the special is a bit clunky

since the cd is pretty big

[split igloo]

yh its mid when you have no hermes buffs

to boost its o special and attack

[willow phoenix]

imo you can make it work most of the time with just pos attack, zeus special, static shock

[split igloo]

Aphro on morrigan works great too since it relies on huge base damage

since she has the highest precent damage

when you get the attack hammers you want

[split igloo]

i prefer the ares/heph wanked build but you need stupid luck

pray for chaos gate to drop to boost omega speed and some hermes

[fiery vine]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kprJGvwmxhM

I didn't realize I had it set to record whole screen instead of the Hades 2 application, whoops

It actually becomes so difficult to control near the end of the chronos fight lol

Oh I didn't realize it reached +266%

[brave dove]

it's excellent except for the really mobile boss fights, put hestia attack on and look for static shock from zeus

try to get poseidon cast to add froth to the mix

[bleak night]

it's one of the strongest ones imo

I think Supay is the best hidden, then after Morrigan and Anubis are equally strong but the playstyles are incredibly different