h2-builds-and-combat

[spare kite]

Or for triggering blitz if starting zeus special

[slate pecan]

what about hammers? what should i look for?

[spare kite]

Basically anything works

Most special hammers are great/uh whatever the new one is called (+power after dashing or special)/bolstered-fetching are nice QoL/possessed array

[slate pecan]

cool thank you so much

[bleak night]

Haven't seen you in a while hiya

[slate pecan]

heyy

[bleak night]

[leaden flame]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/641082718750375957/1345735607455842408/image.png?ex=67c5a173&is=67c44ff3&hm=15b929f7bda4c3185c7112e9d40e69f145a653cb66a8c590fe77d94f319cf042&

ive never had a boon reach this high of a level omg

barely any boons during the first two regions of underworld + a few poms + bridal glow

[willow phoenix]

Try King's/Queen's ransom builds for funnier numbers

[leaden flame]

ooo ill look into that. downstairs bosses dont give me much trouble but im still struggling with eris & prometheus upstairs

[median anvil]

echo's double level can also make some funny boon levels

[vale shard]

Pom pom pom babyyy

[plain palm]

High Surf is kinda like Jolted right

From Hades 1

[spare kite]

Yup

[plain palm]

Tragically doesn't count as a status but neat I loved jolted I gotta take it next time I see it

[untold zodiac]

Poseidon became more like H1 Zeus

[plain palm]

Yeah his waves are the most like bolts
Blitz is kinda like a better Doom? Even has his own "merciful end" (Romantic Spark)

[untold zodiac]

now that Blitz triggers on expiration as well - yes, it is

[visual flume]

my preference is get zeus special + something like ares on the attack and then just load dash load dash

[neat pier]

Is Night Bloom supposed to work on Scylla's minions?

[civic ocean]

It has some grim implications but otherwise yes

[neat pier]

I see, was surprised the hex was ready when I downed one of them

[sage flame]

I with high surf was affected by the ares duo

unless it is and I was lied to

[civic ocean]

Iirc no it’s not actually a wave

[sage flame]

brutal

doesn't make a ton of sense to me cause it seems to be basically the same vfx

[uneven palm]

Yeah the “what is a wave even” could use clarification. Mostly seems to be attack/special/cast, but not high surf or spout or the omega one

[candid ledge]

I think as get to 1.0 they will put in a lot more clarity for what 'effects' count for certain keywords. Atm it's a bit confusing. Not that Hades 1 was perfect in this regard but eventually the community figured it all out. WIth stuff still subject to change maybe they're waiting before they do it?

[civic ocean]

Maybe, part of the charm of the game is discovering little interactions and exceptions so idk if it's a big priority

[sage flame]

it's a fine line between charm and confusing wording

adding a few more keywords would help, like "Olympians" and such

[neat pier]

What are some good aspects to work with ares boons? Thanatos maybe?

[amber dagger]

MOROS

cut above with heph ares duo on moros shreds

Mortal gain as mana source and see if you can even sneak in Apollo duo

[civic ocean]

All of them, to an extent, but it depends what you want to do with Ares

[neat pier]

I gotta do some experimentation then

[west thunder]

If I’m using aspect of Mel sister blades, would I want Aphro attack or Poseidon attack more? Or is someone else’s best?

[carmine lagoon]

static shock and master conductor :)

[sage flame]

poseidon pushes enemies away too much

but hestia works well for flat damage increase, also try ares too, the % is whatever but wounds is fun

aphro works too but I find it eh

[wintry jacinth]

Hi :) just for fun, I designed a hypothetical set of base boons for Pan and I wanted to share them, would here be the right place?

[sage flame]

dont ask for permission but yes

[wintry jacinth]

Wild Strike: Your attacks deal more damage and inflict Panic
Attack Damage: +20% / +35% / +50% / +65%

Wild Flourish: Your specials deal more damage and inflict Panic
Attack Damage: +30% / +50% / +70% / +90%

Bramble Ring: Your casts repeatedly damage foes in the binding circle, and inflict Tangled on foes within when they expire.
Cast Damage: 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 (every 0.25 seconds)

Thorn Rush: Damage foes and inflict Tangled in an area where your dash starts.
Thorn Damage: 20 / 30 / 40 / 50

Maddening Gain: At all times, 3 random foes will be permanently inflicted with Panic. Whenever you strike these foes, restore Magick.
Magick Restored per strike: 5 / 10 / 15 / 20

Panic (status curse, 10 seconds): Afflicted foes take 7.5% more damage, but move and attack 3% quicker. Can be stacked up to 10 times.

Tangled (status curse, 5 seconds): Afflicted foes move 40% slower. After 1 second this effect begins to weaken, losing 5% potency every 0.5 seconds until completely expired.

[spare kite]

Ohhh you meant pan as a boon giver lol

[sage flame]

oh you meant a god

[wintry jacinth]

oh!! Yeah, sorry

[sage flame]

thought you meant the weapon aspect lol

[wintry jacinth]

could've phrased that way clearer, my bad

[sage flame]

still cool

[magic moss]

frenzy3.5 prom 🔥

[wintry jacinth]

yeah, if it was real max frenzy + max panic would be crazy haha

[spare kite]

looking at panic and is just "welcome back gilgamesh's maim" /neg

[wintry jacinth]

I always really enjoyed maim

[gusty tinsel]

what should i start with in the underworld? i have aspects now

[candid ledge]

start with anything! just have fun and try out everything for 1-2 runs to get the hang of it and find out the playstyle(s) you like

[gusty tinsel]

any particular boons i should get for specific weapons?

im on like run 20 and i have no idea whats good or not good

i actually just upgraded my aspect of mel on the sister blades up a lot, so what boons are good with that?

[wintry jacinth]

I really enjoy Aphrodite's attack with the Aspect of Artemis, you can get crazy high crit damage. Apollo on everything with the aspect of Momus is also super fun

[gusty tinsel]

oh cool

[candid ledge]

aphro is pretty good on the first 2 blade aspects yeah.

poseidon special is considered the 'strongest' or among the strongest builds for the Pan Aspect of Blades

[quick crescent]

huge flat damage, slip status curse and poseidon generally having really good duos are strong arguments for panseidon

[jovial pivot]

hades hp boom is key right?

[quick crescent]

i like pairing hestia or hera on cast for either even more flat damage or shared damage with hitch

[quick crescent]

in what context? also what boon

i assume life tax?

[jovial pivot]

40hp, high fear strengh

[quick crescent]

are you using white antler?

[jovial pivot]

not really

[quick crescent]

i think i may be confused lol

[timber pawn]

What are you asking here? What is the best hades boon for high fear? It's deep dissent. The one that makes 50% of reinforcements not show up

[jovial pivot]

Oh I meant ares

not hades

[quick crescent]

oohhhhhhhhh hang on

i assume ares would be good for high heat strength, blood spree and mutual destruction could rake in some numbers

[jovial pivot]

I made all the way up to thypons tail and got owned

[quick crescent]

blood spree to keep you up and running as you dig deeper into your health bar and mutual destruction to add a chance for 200% on to the 25% extra damage from stength

[jovial pivot]

what are the best survivability booms

[quick crescent]

fixed gain from hephaestus, frosty veneer from demeter (requires infusion building though), a couple of duos help with survivability too

that's all from the perspective of facetanking though- just taking all that damage upfront adds up over time

i think the better survivability boons lie in dodge chance boons, and by extension apollo who can give you daze (which causes opponents to miss)

[wintry jacinth]

Uncanny Fortitude is pretty nice, especially combined with other boons that increase your max Magick -- Medea's Traces of Spirit, & Hestia's Burnt Offering work nicely

[jovial pivot]

I got the demeter one last run, since I was running poseidon it it worked well

[quick crescent]

hasty retreat from hermes, wispy wiles from aphrodite

[spare kite]

Pretty sure blood spree gets scars'd

[jovial pivot]

Top side fear is so much harder than below

[quick crescent]

top side in general, you said it brother

[quick crescent]

precisely why i try not to touch scars lololol

i can stretch my room regen pretty ridiculously far, i can not deal with it being taken away

[wintry jacinth]

fr omg, Scars is the one vow I like never touch

[jovial pivot]

I want the final buff statue

[quick crescent]

the wuh

[spare kite]

the fear statues lol

[wintry jacinth]

skelly rewards i think

[quick crescent]

oh yeah lmao

[candid ledge]

scars downstairs:
scars upstairs:

[quick crescent]

they added the invocation statues on olympus this update and i got so confused lol

[candid ledge]

i don't go full scars upstairs (yet)

honestly this is crazy but the demeter foraging boon helped me on my very first upstairs run of the patch. I stacked a ton of HP and everything I mined at the summit helped me heal to full before Typh. i think it may be the only time ive ever taken it

[quick crescent]

i wonder how worth it it would be to go for mutual destruction / blood spree / white antler

[neat pier]

New Guan Yu strat

[quick crescent]

probably not much but i could tinker with those risks

[candid ledge]

if you have trusty shield honestly it's not total suicide. and/or you're really really good at the game

[quick crescent]

or dodge chance or stalwart stand mayhaps

[jovial pivot]

there is still so much content to come despite the game pretty much being fully done

[candid ledge]

yeah dodge + gale help but honestly i don't think just dodge chance would be enough for me to yolo it.

[quick crescent]

nay prolly not

[candid ledge]

I'd need a very safe aspect or some form of damage absorption via Gale / Divine Dash/ Trusty shield

[quick crescent]

ooh running strength with engraved pin and stalwart stand all the way down to tartarus, then switching to white antler for mutual destruction and blood spree- then add last gasp from hades...

[spare kite]

mutual doesn't really work with antler

[candid ledge]

you won't have strength until tartarus then

they nerfed pin to not work with strength btw

[spare kite]

just go with grievous blow

[quick crescent]

as in if you have the pin at all it doesn't work with strength?

[candid ledge]

yeah. they changed it to count as a DD effect to avoid everyone using it on high fear with strength

[amber dagger]

Yes

[candid ledge]

also I don't think last gasp works with pin regardless of your idea (as cool as it sounds)

E: though it might after this patch 👀

it 100% works with normal DDs, DD refills, toula, and skellys tooth

[quick crescent]

any stalwart stand last gasp underworld runs you could point to for numbers reference?

my friend and i tested SS and the pin on the latest patch and got a 216% bonus out of last gasp

[candid ledge]

honestly i have nothing on me but i did watch a run that had the goal of trying to stack last gasp. im sure youtube searching can you find you something.

and i guess because Pin counts as a DD now it works? which is hilarious i should have clarified that pin didn't work last patch from what I had read*

[quick crescent]

evidence that it might go higher since mcknz saiph on YT has a 280% last gasp run, though i can't tell if it's pin or something else pumping that number up

they have embryo on for tartarus so i'm wondering exactly how they got it that high

[gusty tinsel]

Whats a good build for the aspect of momus?

[civic ocean]

Mana, Night arcana, take a good cast boon and a good attack boon, and then boons and hammers that upgrade those, and then combo them together

[timid temple]

momus can do whatever the hell it wants. slap any 2 percent boons onto attack and special and its good. cut above builds work, meat grinder builds work, geyser spout works. it's pretty awesome

[empty spindle]

Ugh this is frustrating. Axe used to be my best weapon but now I’m really struggling to beat Typhon at 20 fear. Any suggestions?

[nova cairn]

Not just sick health wise but also sick at the game
#h2-victory-boasting message

GOD BLESS I FINALLY DID IT AND FIRST RUN OF THE DAY

[candid ledge]

ayo congrats!!

[neat pier]

Congratz

[nova cairn]

I have been grinding 32 surface with momus for the past week and this felt easy 😭

[quick crescent]

EXCEPTIONAL TALENT OMEGA CAST

[nova cairn]

peep what i just cleared with

basically, clang gang (Anvil Ring + Geyser spout + arctic gale + winners circle + attack or special that applies a curse if u have origination -> big numbers)

[spare kite]

Isn't it only O atk O special

[quick crescent]

it's good enough but conceptually getting 4-5 uses out of an that's only supposed to give you 3 is hilarious

[quick crescent]

last build i had there were momus snakes popping winner's circle omega casts like crazy

exceptional talent might only be atk and special

[neat pier]

Anyone got a good black coat build for the surface, I'm struggling

[quick crescent]

id have to double check

either way it's stupid good, especially after you realize that you can have more than one momus snake at a time

chuck a good hex onto it and you have a really good momus

[candid ledge]

try mel coat with a bunch of different Ares duos. it honestly makes a ton of builds work...whether you lean into zeus and heinous affront + stattick shock + the new statick shock buffing boon

or poseidon attack + ares special and going into arterial spray (bonus points if you get auto-fire rockets hammer + rising upper hammer for triple dash strike hit)

even if you end up with apollo/aphro + ares it's good. just left click stuff to death

[quick crescent]

exceptional talent at the very least makes your attack and special strike 4 time instead of 3, which is great supplementary damage to your disgustingly beefed casts

[neat pier]

Will try thanks!

[nova cairn]

i'm NOT looking forward to melt coat 32

[jovial pivot]

I made it to the tail with 1

on 32 fear

[somber cobalt]

does stalwart stand work with strength? i know pin did up until recently

[spare kite]

No

[deft dagger]

can u guys rate my build i almost beat chronos with it a few times and i wana see what ppl think

https://i.imgur.com/zGIVijM.png

[neat pier]

I tried apollo attack in Than aspect to trigger the legendary and found the boost kinda weak ngl

[spare kite]

It only extends the spin duration afaik?

[candid ledge]

it's totally fine to beat chronos with. I would just recommend turning on the Origination arcana card and trying to get a debuff/curse from another God on your cast special or dash! It will help your damage a lot

otherwise Thanatos + apollo lets you play a very safe gameplay. I believe you can do it!!

try something like demeters freeze on cast or her Gusts on dash, aphros weak on dash or cast, even apollos own dash is fine (he also has a boon that lets your attacks inflict daze i think?)

[spare kite]

chance based but yeah

[deft dagger]

thanks

here 1sec https://i.imgur.com/rGMp8zC.jpeg

[wintry jacinth]

do boons that buff Heph's "blast" effects apply to his cast? sry if thats a dumb question

[candid ledge]

I personally find Excellence not worth the cost (4th column 4th row +50% rare chance on Boons) but the rest looks fine! it's all personal preference anyhow.

If I had to give you some advice I would turn the above off and turn on The Lovers (Column 5 Row 3) to help with boss fights and then turn on either The Furies (Column 1 Row 2) or the healing card (forget the name, Column 2 Row 1)

i look forward to your first win !!

[deft dagger]

thanks for all the advice ill try it out

[sage flame]

wayward son is the zag art heal one!

[deft dagger]

im in a run rn so ill show what i have

[candid ledge]

lovers + wayward son were very crucial for me when I was new to hades 2 and trying to get my first win honestly. carried my noob ass through many combats.

[deft dagger]

https://i.imgur.com/vL5ql6A.png

jus beat the 1st boss

ima get apollo dash and aphrodite cast

and then see where i can go from there

[deft dagger]

ill have to try this then aswell

[spare kite]

nope

[deft dagger]

https://i.imgur.com/vklNNLX.jpeg

jus beat Cerberus

[candid ledge]

keep going!!

[candid ledge]

basically lovers and wayword son are things that mitigate you getting hit by enemies or bosses. once you get better you'll get hit less and (most likely) need them less. but early on it gives you some space to breathe and make mistakes without the run ending

[deft dagger]

ah

iv been playing sence relese and still havent beat chronos or the eris on the surface

that will prolly help with that

https://i.imgur.com/kVOdRQp.jpeg

getting close

https://i.imgur.com/yoa2xgO.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/hAOKA5h.jpeg

half killed chronos phase 2

[sage flame]

good progress

[steady crater]

Can someone explain exactly what casts do (or point to a good reference) ?
I saw a video on how to beat king vermin and it said you can restrict its movement with casts (and in the video they use casts with the vermin outside, and the vermin can't seem to get in)
But when i try it, it justs lunges at me and kills me (trial of doom)

[spare kite]

that was before warsong, now all bosses/minibosses that have a health bar are immune to being slowed by the cast

outside of that, yes, cast will trap completely or slow down enemies inside it, allowing breathing room

[steady crater]

Hmm how am i supposed to do then
Vermin ends any trial of doom i try

[spare kite]

doesn't the arena have those gaps you can dash across? you could prob hit it from the other side of them

[steady crater]

Kind of yeah
Though it's a game of cat and rat between the two sides, and the others are putting bombs so it's not easy
Even so, at least i managed to only lose my cat's life

[stray notch]

Aspect of moros the best one for torches right?

[bleak night]

yep

[stray notch]

What is the best build for it?

[bleak night]

Most fun build rn is Hera Attack and Ares Special with a priority on Born Gain since your damage is good even without boons for the whole of Erebus aside from MP Regen. With Ares on Special, you fish immediately for Grievous Blow and try to maximize your Max MP to around 200 before you get Fine Line, which will cause your MP to eat up a lot quicker.

Run Hecate's keepsake if you're worried about priming out at any point with Fine Line, the +100 Max MP stays even if you unequip it.

best combat keepsake to take for the final area is Metallic Droplet for the channeling speed

can just completely run 2 defensive gods after Hera and Ares, such as Demeter and Heph

[uneven palm]

I might be crazy but it feels like Typhon’s tail can’t snap at you if there’s a cast between you and it

[vale shard]

Its supposed to be immune to it, or at least resistant

Like all guardians

Oops i didn't even meant to reply

[steady crater]

Finally managed to beat trial of doom
I think around 40 tries

[vale shard]

This one was fun

[steady crater]

Got +50 shield just before scylla

[steady crater]

Does it count for jugdment ?

[vale shard]

No, sgg loves their inconsistency

[formal pulsar]

was static shock pom scaling nerfed in the last patch?

[junior trail]

yes its nerfed

was +5 every level and now its +2?

[formal pulsar]

yeah..... i noticed

rarity now is much more important for static shock builds i guess. I hate it

[spare kite]

Isn't tony and similar wardens and not guardians

[vale shard]

But they fit the guardian description

[formal pulsar]

is poseidon the best god for selene fist now? good attack and geyser spout for omega cast, which imo the best mana dump for the coat with winner's circle.

[spare kite]

Apollo attack+ zeus/ares special is my go

Dependent on that one hammer but night crits are fun with the O.atk

[formal pulsar]

ares special is always good for the speed attack buffs you can get. but i just really like o cast play on selene. maybe because i hate all other o moves on it

[gilded trail]

I'm wondering if the -dmg on heph's gain (iirc) applies after god mode, or before? And in general, are there boons that are particularly suited for people running god mode?

(I understand folks here actually have skill but I'm beyond saving in that regard, so I'm trying to play with crutches)

[formal pulsar]

usually (emphasis here) damage subtraction happens after all other calculations. so it should be after god mode damage reduction

[cursive oyster]

yea tough gain is strong with any source of DR

[sage flame]

oh i thought it was before DR, like flood control

[cursive oyster]

flood control also happened after DR- i would know because i did a run where chronos did 1 damage per scythe swing

[sage flame]

damn who lied to me

[formal pulsar]

can typhon be backstapped or is mel blades disabled in that fight?

[spare kite]

The special could probably backstab? But attack is out of luck yes

[bleak night]

50 Fear Charon damageless Typhon https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1298880973399916605/1345951134031810621/Typhon_damageless.mp4?ex=67c66a2c&is=67c518ac&hm=400f6288212fc61742705334915e7394862b512c298ca18806e5f6d8a4f96081&

[sage flame]

zamn

[spare kite]

Nasty

[formal pulsar]

last phase after second egg drop was almost all crits. insane play gg!

also I love geysur spout

[bleak night]

Wish my god keepsake rotation was better

I went Apollo -> Demeter -> Hera -> Antler

Needed Dem for Orig because I got Apollo-Aphro-Poseidon-Heph in Ephyra, wanted Extended Family from Hera

Don't quite need best-in-slot stuff anymore, just need Origination and Geyser Spout and your damage is good for the entire run

[formal pulsar]

didnt notice at first but damn no athena too

[bleak night]

I have more issue with Prometheus than Typhon now

I probs won't with more mobile aspects but my brain keeps telling me to bumrush him

[magic moss]

i think its more the fact that typhon is a fairly linear fight, like you only have to worry about one direction of attack

prometheus can come at you from all sides

[bleak night]

That's fair ig

also my aspect this time around is kinda bad against Prometheus since Cast doesn't catch him

[past salmon]

One of these days you will actually learn the Prometheus fight instead of trying to dps race him I believe

[bleak night]

You're assuming I will ever grow a brain

[analog quail]

what i’m getting from this is that i’m on the same level as some 50F players

no longer sure that’s a complement though

[past salmon]

its not dont worry 😭

[analog quail]

“You play like a 50F player!”
“You play like a 50F player!”

[bleak night]

Doesn't seem like that's going to be today https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1238124170282532944/1345973663656185907/Prometheus_dps_race.mp4?ex=67c67f28&is=67c52da8&hm=1259e727034ee6dda50a7812353534972c9ade0571aeeecdf18eaeb441da8e84&

[civic ocean]

I feel like its also really easy to tell what Typhon is about to do but prometheus is like camouflaged by blue fire

[timid temple]

cant believe tidal ring bricks geyser spout

these satyrs go flying out

[analog quail]

god i love than axe

spin to win

had a banger ex. chop + hell splitter run today where i just bonked things until i won

[timid temple]

critical geyser spout oughhhh

night is goated

[bleak night]

Yeah, that feels pretty good to proc

[timid temple]

hey fiftieth wib

[formal pulsar]

omega cast play feels soo smooth with winner's circle. wish that boon is here to stay

[sage flame]

it better not go anywhere, people really like it

[junior trail]

Does Brave Face apply to Hex or upon magick usage boons? (like Heart Breaker, Power Surge, Righteous Spike)

[formal pulsar]

Yeah mana consumed is mana consumed

[mental ore]

aspect of medea is cracked with that wolf howl hex crit upgrade wow

oh i think the big thing is the dionysus soda boon though that increases the base power of all those shells causing massive crit damage

[hard plover]

yes hello, I am new

wondering whats the best way to go against Prometheus

I have been using the daggers with Melinöe's aspect on em

along with a buncha backstab boons and daedalus hammers

only managed to beat Prometheus once

[bleak night]

Probs don't load up on backstab boons, the final boss is immune to them sadly

Try out Freezer Burn though, Hestia on Attack and Demeter on Cast, fish for their Duo

[hard plover]

I would figure

would you recommend the axe or the coat?

[bleak night]

Any other weap you play? Melee Blades kinda struggle up there in general is all

[bleak night]

You have the Charon Axe already? It's super good rn since they bugfixed it.

[hard plover]

I like the axe a lot

I have not used Charon's aspect no

I am afraid to because Prometheus moves around a lot

[bleak night]

You wanna get into it or do you prefer something you're comfortable with

[hard plover]

his moveset is very unforgiving

[bleak night]

Not the biggest issue when you realize Charon can dash while channeling the Omega Special

[analog quail]

this reads like you’re offering them drugs 😭 and in a way that’s kind of accurate

[hard plover]

I will see

[bleak night]

Charon is a drug

[hard plover]

I have killed Kronos like 4-5 times, he is easy

but Prometheus is a different breed

[bleak night]

Charon can deal with em all pretty well ngl

[hard plover]

zang

[storm holly]

anyone know the best arcana set up for 22 grasp

[gusty tinsel]

i have a build going rn with sunny disposition, cardio gain, righteous pike, and more, im so happy with it

[median anvil]

axe is a drug, charon is just a subtype

funny damage numbers make brain go weeeeeee

[gusty tinsel]

for charon axe what boons do i mainly go for

[bleak night]

Apollo start into Lucid Gain. Best Cast is Demeter, Special is mix and match, but you want a different curse on it. Ares, Hera and Zeus are preferable rn

If no Dem Cast, Apollo, Aphro and Hera work for it, Hestia to a lesser degree because the number on it needs to be 80 for 100% scorch uptime for Origination

[gusty tinsel]

okay got it

i saw someone say something about poseidon is there anything with him?

[bleak night]

Ah right right. You force Poseidon with a keepsake in the next area preferably, purely for Geyser Spout, which only appears once you have a Cast. It's worth rarifying and brings the damage out.

[gusty tinsel]

ok cool

[bleak night]

Any other boon off of water unc is kinda meh

It's just the one thing lol

[past salmon]

Hydraulic is fiiiinnnnnneeeeeee

[gusty tinsel]

what should the magic cards look like

[bleak night]

Yeah it's alr ig. Also since you're running Dem as well then you can stack Water for the infusions, always an option

[fluid oxide]

😔

you can dm me it

[bleak night]

Whoops sorry lemme find that rq

[bleak night]

https://imgur.com/a/ymE5Haj

[fluid oxide]

take ur time take yr time laa dont be sorry

[bleak night]

#h2-builds-and-combat message

There you go, should be the basics of building it

[fluid oxide]

woah owah thank ya thank ya love ya mynt yr real savior

[bleak night]

Sure hfhf

[gusty tinsel]

what should i take for hammers?

[civic ocean]

Sudden cleaver but don’t prioritize hammers much tbh

Like hammers are probably worth about as much as non-boon major finds and probably worth less than boons

[gusty tinsel]

it was the first area 😭 i have the options of giga cleaver, colossus slash, and dashing heave

[civic ocean]

Anything not for the attack is fine

[bleak night]

Giga Cleaver, Sudden Cleaver, Melting Shredder and Siege Shredder are your only real options, yeah. Siege Shredder is a stretch as well

[gusty tinsel]

wait so.. to get this straight bc im silly, what kinda build is this

[bleak night]

You put Cast down (not Omega) and blow it up with your Omega Special

So it's a Special and Cast build for the most part, aiming to get Origination up quickly

[gusty tinsel]

ohhh okay

i have herioc lucid gain +2 already so hopefully im chill

[bleak night]

Rule of thumb for future runs, don't need to really pom Lucid Gain as much

[gusty tinsel]

it was the hera thing

[bleak night]

Just at 75 it's enough to sustain you for the most part, since your rotations cost 30

Ah, she Bridal Glow'd it ? Wish she picked something else rip. Not the worst though

What gods did you find ?

Apollo/Hera/?/?

[gusty tinsel]

yea only those so far

[bleak night]

Hope you find Dem. If Poseidon doesn't show up, force him with a keepsake in the next area

[past salmon]

try to make sure you have your cast slot filled by then tho so u can get geyser offered

[gusty tinsel]

oh yikes i didnt know that 😭 i found a poseidon

ill find another its okay ill take his cast, or should i

[bleak night]

It's fine. Just get Geyser Spout asap when you see him again

Did you not find a 3rd god with a cast with curse ?

[gusty tinsel]

like wdym, im a little new to actually making builds

and learning all the terminology

i have geyser spout now, it was from charon before the cyclops

[bleak night]

Curses are the secondary debuffs or effects your boons cause.

Weak, Daze, Hitch, Scorch, Freeze, Cyclones, Blitz, Vent, Slip, Wound

[gusty tinsel]

ohhhhhh

[bleak night]

Nice. If you find Poseidon again try to get Slippery Slope

[gusty tinsel]

will do

[bleak night]

You want to have 2 curses in your combo because it activates the Origination card, which boosts the damage of things by 50% (if the Arcana is max rank)

[gusty tinsel]

ah okay

nothing is max rn but thank you

what should i force now?

demeter?

[bleak night]

No need anymore. Just grab Hera Special. You have 3 or 4 gods rn ?

[gusty tinsel]

i think just 3

[bleak night]

Apollo-Hera-Poseidon ?

[gusty tinsel]

yea

[bleak night]

And your Special slot has nothing on it right ?

[gusty tinsel]

no..

[bleak night]

Run Ares and get Vicious Flourish, then find Grievous Blow when he appears again

[gusty tinsel]

it has hera's special rn, also i dont have ares i havent gotten that far 😭

i died to the pattern thing on prometheus last time

[bleak night]

Ah then go Hephaestus and build some defensives

Only grab the defensives, Hera Special and Tidal Ring with Slip is your endgoal for Origination, so hunt for Poseidon again for Slippery Slope

[gusty tinsel]

okay gotcha

so hephaestus or poseidon

[bleak night]

A lil scuffed but Charon is really good at mixing and matching so you can win as long as Geyser Spout and Origination are there

[bleak night]

Poseidon already in the pool. Force Hephaestus to be 4th and last.

[gusty tinsel]

okay

[bleak night]

Grab only the defensives to help you survive

Uncanny Fortitude, Trusty Shield, Mint Condition, Heavy Metal

[bleak night]

Ah you don't know the trick to it ?

Lmk when you're before his door, I can tell you how it works

[gusty tinsel]

okay i gotchu

lets hope i beat that one lady, ive only done it once so far 😭

[bleak night]

I have a vid of Charon Axe against her if you wanna see how I deal with stuff

[gusty tinsel]

i got slippery slope >:D

[bleak night]

Origination should be active now, so your damage should be way better now

Gotta hit them with the Tidal Ring though, which is only one direction

[gusty tinsel]

wait, whats origination again?

[bleak night]

^

[gusty tinsel]

ohh that thing

i forgot about it

[bleak night]

You have it on, right ?

[gusty tinsel]

yes

im forced to go into this one with like 2 boons in it, whats that all about

oh do i have to pick one and then the other gets angry

[bleak night]

What are the choices

[gusty tinsel]

hephaestus and poseidon

[bleak night]

Go Heph, Poseidon one is just a slow ass ball of water that you can just run away from

[gusty tinsel]

okay

king tide? should i get it

probably what am i thinking

[bleak night]

What are the other choices

[gusty tinsel]

common hydraulic might and epic wave strike

[bleak night]

Because that only boosts your Tidal Ring I think, not your Geyser Spout anymore

Yeah just go King Tide ig

If it works with Geyser Spout and it starts doing 3x the damage lmk

[gusty tinsel]

i think it does

[bleak night]

I can test that out later, it for sure boosts your Tidal Ring though

[gusty tinsel]

i have no idea

[willow phoenix]

Poseidon trial is the easiest of them all

[gusty tinsel]

im one shotting everything though >:D

[bleak night]

That's the Charon experience, yeah

It overkills mobs

[gusty tinsel]

should i take martial art? i only have 2 atm but it could go higher

[bleak night]

Doesn't work with Omega Special, just the basic Attack and Special

[gusty tinsel]

yikes 😦

okay so i tabbed out and died to her.. im gonna crash out 😭

[bleak night]

Oh.

[inner cloud]

There's no kill like overkill! Make's 'em deader in the next life too! #PraiseCharon

[junior trail]

Is high surf good for revenge boon build?

[bleak night]

Ngl not really

Flat damage tied to the enemy's attack speed with what seems to be an internal cooldown

It could work with dodge builds because idt it cares if the enemy's hit connects? Could test.

[willow phoenix]

It should work with dodge because it triggers on enemy attacking not hitting

Ngl light smite is probably enough for revenge builds outside of bosses rn lol

And going Apollo builds into warm breeze too

[broken pond]

hey guys, any good builds for 32 on surface? I almost made it couple of times with black coat special and water splash, but no luck. now struggling to get past Prometheus 😦

[civic ocean]

Easiest way to look at improving your surface runs is to look at the fear first

[broken pond]

what do you mean by that? 🤔

[civic ocean]

Some fear (grit, debt, time, scars) is a lot more punishing on surface than in underworld

Others, like Forfeit, are not as bad

[bleak night]

Pretty much, yeah

I have a 32 fear setup somewhere lemme find it

[broken pond]

thanks!

[civic ocean]

In terms of black coat builds is your plan to spam poseidon specials or omega specials?

[bleak night]

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2F32-fear-builds-v0-nexohklondme1.png%3Fwidth%3D640%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dc1f7104949775998baaa9bc918226f6d659e5686 I think this ?

More HP makes the HP sponge bosses a lot worse (Prometheus has 33k) and Hordes just gets you turbo swarmed. You have Debt off because you can overload on Boons and Max HP off of Hermes shrines.

[broken pond]

was spamming both. sometimes got lucky and got hammer update which allows rockets to jump between foes. usually I was going for Hestia for magick restoration and was trying to get Zeus lighting.

[bleak night]

I think some things could still be swapped off though

[broken pond]

will try it, many thanks

[civic ocean]

That all sounds good. It’s honestly a bit hard to recommend builds for surface because you sort of have to build based off of what ephyra gives you

[broken pond]

yeah, sometimes it's not that good 😄

[civic ocean]

Like if you start poseidon I could be like get the ares duo boon but if ephyra shows you no ares then what are you gonna do right with Forfeit on I have definitely taken a god keepsake into thessaly and just not gotten a boon at all

[bleak night]

Happens a fair bit, yeah. Fig Leaf or something else that helps you survive is preferable in Thessaly sometimes.

[broken pond]

funny thing is - I beat Underworld multiple times with different fear setup and different weapons and build, but I'm really struggling with surface. sometimes can't even get to Eris, as these tight ships and these guys with pickaxes

[bleak night]

Surface is marginally harder, it makes sense

Things do too much damage or have too much HP, that or the arena is too narrow (Thessaly)

[civic ocean]

So I guess I would make sure if you are running poseidon try to make sure if you are using the origination arcana to ensure you get two curses because you don’t have one innately, and with the pickaxe enemies remember that with that fear setup you can honestly take your time and run away as much as the ships let you

[broken pond]

I came to realisation that it's better to take hammer as first thing in Ephyra.. gives you a bit of boost if you are lucky

[bleak night]

also probs swap out Artificer for Lovers if you haven't yet. Not taking Debt means you don't need to gamble with Artificer, just get the 3x boss shielding per fight

[broken pond]

thanks for advices, will try it later today! 🙂

[bleak night]

hope you can close it out, glgl

[last cape]

Double wards sounds actually obnoxious, I know most weapons don't care but I like playing weapons like Artemis daggers that do lol

I almost got a 32 fear Typhon kill with Artemis blades and died at the very end of the fight 😭 ughhh

[bleak night]

can swap out wards for healing reduc ig. Do you use Arty for Omega Attacks or something? I just parry then spam normal attacks

also Plentiful Forage is broken anyway so you can probs abuse to ignore Scars

[last cape]

Only if I get sweeping ambush

[primal phoenix]

Hey I need a lil explanation on Hestia's burning dash. I feel like sometimes, it doesn't trigger on attacks that are usually absorbed without a problem. I tested it out just now on Eris' single shot, and I managed to absorb it 2 times and got hit 2 other times, while running. In both case, there was a flame on my head like normal and the icon to the left didnt seem in cooldown like hephaistus' shots

Is there a max imput it can absorb in one run or smth like that ?

[bleak night]

Unsure, I think it's just purely inconsistent ngl. Been that way for a long time

[last cape]

Sudden Driver doesn't do anything for medea right?

the uncharged special is already close enough to instant

[bleak night]

More of a feel-based change. I suggest trying it out

[last cape]

I see, I ended up grabbing bolstered even though it doesn't really do anything either but I'll try it next time I see it with no better options

[quick crescent]

probably a stupid question but does scorch stack with itself? i know h1 hangover overrides lower number stacks with higher stacks

i.e is having smolder ring and scorch strike a bad idea, a good idea, or no worse off either way?

[untold zodiac]

it stacks with itself, there's no overriding

it goes down by 80 points per second so there is such thing as doing to much scorch

there's a boon that makes it go down faster

smolder ring on its own typically doesn't do enough scorch to make having a second scorch source pointless

[surreal hazel]

You can stack it past the point of usefulness, but that's why we have freezerburn

[quick crescent]

yeah pyro technique is good i like it a lot

it's like curse of nauseau except not a duo boon and thus more attainable

[quick crescent]

i believe smoulder does the most base damage at 40 persec for common rarity

so if it caps at 80, build for no more than 80 scorch cumulatively? sans freezer burn

[formal pulsar]

i dislike that freezer burn disables scorch application while the freeze effect (not curse) is still active. it is really noticeable if you have cold storage

not sure why it works like that

[uneven palm]

There’s not much point in optimizing for exactly 80/s around Scorch. You might get Pyro Technique which speeds up the ticking, and sometimes you just can’t hit things so having excess scorch applied means you’re still doing damage or you can hit and run and they’ll die

[quick crescent]

wonder if you can build freezer burn and room temperature together to any benefit

[fair horizon]

The better synergy is Freezer Burn + Burning Desire. I hope Room Temperature gets scrapped and replaced by something better.

[formal pulsar]

it is really noticeable when you have cold storage but other than that, I dont think room temperature would add much. 2second of no scorch is annoying and a dps loss but it is manageable. 5+seconds is run ending

[fair horizon]

Not necessarily run ending: regular enemies frozen longer is easier rooms, tankier enemies frozen longer is more time to build up scorch if your main sources of scorch are developed.

[formal pulsar]

but that's the issue you cannot build scorch while tankier enemies are frozen if you proc freezer burn. idk if it is intented or bugged but after freezer burn proc, you cannot apply scorch until the freeze effect (not the curse) wears off

[fair horizon]

Didn't know it was bugged like that

Still hope Room Temperature gets reworked or replaced to something more exciting

[formal pulsar]

yeah it is bugged. so with cold storage, if you have like a 5second freeze, thats 5 second of no scorch after each freezer burn proc. makes the whole thing very hard to use against guardians.

also agreed on room temperature. it is almost useless

[formal pulsar]

max upgrade lunar ray vs typhon is sooo funny.

[primal phoenix]

You're the second one I see saying that, is it THAT good ? x)

[sage flame]

lunar ray rocks if you get purple upgrades

specifically autofire

[formal pulsar]

he is a stationary big dude. i got prominence (fire and forget) and trinity (triple rays). i think like 50% of my dmg in that fight was from lunar ray

[fair horizon]

lunar ray

[primal phoenix]

Well I have to beat him 16 heat, guess I'll try that with aspect of pan, my highest weapon yet

(I'm kinda scared)

[formal pulsar]

dont worry you got this

[pale cedar]

Is the consensus that Hex/Moon still extremely weak?

[sage flame]

not extremely weak, but mid with no upgrades but pretty usable with upgrades but investment is opportunity cost

[pale cedar]

I just came back after the Prometheus and Typhon patches

hmm ok, so about the same. I found there's a new Ares(?) boon that just seems like close to infinite magick

that seems absolutely busted

[formal pulsar]

unless it is phase shift or wolf howl. you kinda need to squeeze in selene keepsake to make hex useful imo

[pale cedar]

i used to use the reanimate an enemy that was ok for a hot second. the heal is okay if im "forced" to take it. the rest seemed bleh/dps loss

[wooden sleet]

the damage nuke is alright for typhon dps

since he cant dodge it

[primal phoenix]

Damn the oath that make enemies move and attack faster is TOUGH. I'm getting my ass ended to me in Ephyrea, I'm ashamed..

[pale cedar]

IMO - if you're tryint to get higher heats/play at a higher level - you should just get used to them asap

[primal phoenix]

I've been avoiding certain ones, like this one and the one that ups their dmg, so it's my first run at a relatively "high" heat (even if 16 isnt alat). But yeah more numerous enemies + faster + more life, I've just used my first DD in Ephyrea and I'm not Prometheus because I have NOT seen that outcome coming lmao

[formal pulsar]

what vows are you starting with?

[pale cedar]

I like the new dmg buff and dmg reduction arcana card as opposed to DD

[formal pulsar]

dont straight to frenzy II or pain III. there is like 12 fear vows of almost "free" fear

[pale cedar]

you'll eventually have to take them, but getting used to certain ones will make that pain easier when you push harder. You dont want to get used to like 16 heat without the +speed, then take that and realize you're getting smacked around after being "complacent" at the default one imo

[primal phoenix]

I was starting with the ones that make them more numerous, the one that get enemies from further zones and the ones that boost their health bar. FOrgot their names

[primal phoenix]

Only tried it on one run with Mel's axe, was kinda good but I'm sooo used to DDs haha. But that arcana is nice, true

[primal phoenix]

Yeah I hear ya on that one.. x)

[formal pulsar]

dont take hordes (more enemies) or grit (more enemy health). there are harder than they appear.

I would say start with time I, vow of denial (cannot pick boons you dont select, this vow almost makes your build better). enemies from next region is good. vow of shadows is good starter. and vow of hubris if you dont use omegas

[primal phoenix]

Got ua lil used to hordes and grit, but paired with frenzy that's a bit much for me to chew. Time is almost always off but yeah it's not that bad

[median anvil]

turn everything off and play frenzy2 timer3, once you get used to them they're just free fear

trust me, once you get used to frenzy2 you actually won't be able to turn it off

[formal pulsar]

straight to time 3 on the surface is a little rough imo

[median anvil]

timer2 is completely free and then timer3 is actually challenging, it's a little weird

[pale cedar]

I think the only thing that it is "helpful" on would be Chronos' one shot or any other one shots - but you shouldnt be hit by those to begin wiht 😛

[primal phoenix]

Never been hit by the Chronos' OS since my first few attempts. I was gonna say that Typhoon hits like a fckin truck but I guess that's why the dmg reduction is good haha

Will try the time ones, and yeah should get used to frenzy. I have still some weapons that need to be done at fear 8 so I'll try it on them I think

[bleak night]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1252732088378200146/1346166597240488078/image.png?ex=67c732d7&is=67c5e157&hm=aa7b095e0b41e977e6b028c78cc0bd3b00d706771a03c9449b1cba181b0a7e7e& Yeah I'm at a point where I'm just bulldozing 50F Surface with no issue

[primal phoenix]

Built different. I just died on a boat

(Poseidon slapped me for choosing his brother lmao)

[median anvil]

do you think when the em equivalent drops, max fear runs will be more doable than 64 heat runs?

[bleak night]

yes

[median anvil]

judgement card works at max void right?

[formal pulsar]

no

[bleak night]

nope

[formal pulsar]

do you always run gale over frinos now?

[bleak night]

Yep, I don't really run Frinos anymore. Just Raki, Hecuba and Gale

https://youtu.be/bzr1sBmxjl4 run is processing but I suggest skipping to the Prometheus fight where my build comes online

[sage flame]

no toula?

sad, think about the big passive dps

[bleak night]

[candid ledge]

tbh even when you get the perfect hex for your build with max moon rarity the issue is that it's taking the place of a 'normal' boon reward room

and basically forces you to do even more path reward rooms to upgrade it. so the non-hex part of your build is often weak

[pale cedar]

yeah, i always try to roll it off: speaking of rerolls - does anyone have information on how they work?

In hades 1 you couldnt go from a low tier (nectar or something) into a boon. but in this one ive seen it happen

[candid ledge]

uhm there are some tricks to it. but I won't pretend to know every single detail. I know for downstairs runs in the 1st region there are certain chamber #s where rolling is better than others or there is/isn't a chance to roll into God boons etc

[spare kite]

You can't

[candid ledge]

i would imagine @bleak night know's how it works. I've heard Boated talk about it on youtube but i still do not understand what he's saying....

[spare kite]

Minor rewards can't roll into majors and vice versa

[sage flame]

minor finds only roll into other minor finds, major finds reroll into other major find, mini boss doors always reroll into other boons, only restriction is you can't roll into what is already on the door

[pale cedar]

hmmm ok, let me look at what constitues minor and major

[bleak night]

What's up ?

[candid ledge]

but yeah this rule is still there same as Hades 1.

[sage flame]

blue laurels on the side of the orb on the door vs uhhh gold? what's the other color

[spare kite]

Minor is all the meta resources basically
Bones/nectar/ashes

[sturdy minnow]

minibosses are only rare/epic boons i think

[formal pulsar]

mini boss rooms will always have boon rewards (except now in the olympus summit)

[candid ledge]

basically how rolling doors works in Hades 2. often times it being different based on chamber # and which region you're in

also how ephyra door rolls seem to work a little differently?

[pale cedar]

is hex a minor or major>

[formal pulsar]

major

[spare kite]

Gold laurels are boons/coins/hp/mana/hex/hammers/poms

[bleak night]

Ephyra doors are all major rewards, so you can just reroll them into other major rewards. Miniboss rooms are the only unique ones in that they'll always be a god boon, so rerolling is 100% a different god boon rather than a chance for gold/hp/mp

[formal pulsar]

tbh i dont mind hexes as much on the surface runs because you get paths of stars from hermes shrine.

[bleak night]

ngl I'm actually really bad at the game's knowledge checks. I'm a vibes based player

I know the stuff I experience a ton of times, but aside from that

[candid ledge]

it's weird because i don't think i've artificer rolled into path but i have into every thing else on that list

[magic moss]

based tbh

[candid ledge]

is that just the rng/probability or is it an exception?

[bleak night]

like those 4 runs I sent today ?

[magic moss]

in backlog

[spare kite]

PoS are weird so idk

[bleak night]

Oh I mean the builds on them were all so ridiculous that I completely melted every single part of the Summit gauntlet with no issue

[somber agate]

if i'm struggling with 32 fear surface bc i love eating damage, is it probably a good idea to give up Wayward Son and go Pain 3/Scars 2 (was using Hordes/Time) to brute force myself into learning not to get hit

[candid ledge]

well I would agree wiht giving up Wayword Son. Idk about pain 3 for 32 personally. But I do run scars 2 for surface for essentially the same logic; learn to not get hit but some leeway otherwise a lot more ofm my runs die

[bleak night]

Plentiful Forage works through Scars 3 if you wanna know that lil tidbit of info

[somber agate]

yeah i'm thinking just do pain 3 now bc i would like to go higher than 32 fear (if my skill issue allows it)

[bleak night]

I've got some runs up for Surface high fear if you wanna have a lookie at them

[candid ledge]

and preserved still does too i think?

Plentiful unironically has saved me a ton on the surface*

[bleak night]

Preserved still does, but UW exclusive

[somber agate]

that's good to know bc i love plentiful forage

[candid ledge]

whenever i watch your surface 50 or boated surface 50 runs I just realize this isn't helpful for me bc a lot of it is just u guys being better

whereas for basement it's been very helpful

[bleak night]

Boated has 50 fear surface runs already too ?

[candid ledge]

ah wait no not surface 50 sorry

[bleak night]

I was under the impression he's still practicing for it

[somber agate]

also i've watched some of your runs mynt and will definitely go watch more if i don't see myself improving soon

[bleak night]

Did you need tips on a certain aspect ?

[somber agate]

i don't think so? i feel like i make ok build choices and have fun with the majority of the aspects

[bleak night]

That's all you need, honestly. Just keep an open mind for the builds you find. I've been speedrunning the Summit recently since Ephyra makes you so strong out of the gate

[candid ledge]

do you stream mynt ?

[bleak night]

Not really, except for when people are in the VC of the Speedrunner discord

Did you need an invite ?

[candid ledge]

yeah sure

[bleak night]

dm'd

[candid ledge]

thank you

this Ephyra map is pretty useful. though i'm unsure if it actually changes pathing because you're just gonna go for doors with stuff you want anyway on high fear. but it likely helps change things for speedurnning?

[bleak night]

it's mostly for speedrunning ye

[surreal hazel]

Probably worth having a look at how many major rewards you get on average for a surface and underworld run

Surface seems way frontloaded, but the last area gives you (potentially) way more in the underworld... but mostly in pom/cash

I've had surface runs where I didn't even use up my artificer arcana so minor rewards basically aren't a thing

[median anvil]

what ephyra map

do you mean the bat cages?

[bleak night]

join the speedrunner cord rq, it's a message there

[surreal hazel]

bat cages are an upgrade that gives you a zoom out of the hub

so you can see what the rewards are without having to check everything

[bleak night]

Not that map

[surreal hazel]

yeah, not that map

[bleak night]

Speedrunner cord has a map with colour coding to denote which rooms are faster/spawn less enemies etc

[median anvil]

oh i see

[surreal hazel]

it's a picture that indicates what room each passageway goes to, and what sort of room you get, potential side rooms, and general speedrun quality

[median anvil]

I don't think I'll be needing that until i start using timer3

[surreal hazel]

because the ephyra map is fixed, just what passageways are open is randomised

[median anvil]

won't be doing high fear surface runs until I'm more comfortable up there

[magic moss]

when you watch other people play, the focus should be on how they pilot the aspect. There is a lot of small optimizations to how top runners actually play the aspect that add up a lot over time. Things like animation cancels, positioning, target selection, movement, etc. Compare what they do to how you pilot the aspect and try to see the things you arent doing or things you should be doing more. Boon choices and what rooms they take are very run dependent and shouldn’t really be the focus.

most of the times if you ask a top runner for tips regarding your run, the tip is going to be i. some way related to how you play the aspect and not about boon choices

[indigo terrace]

What's a good setup for Aspect of Eos? Haven't used it much compared to the other torches and I'd like to give it a shot

[sage flame]

what used to be standard was hera attack zeus special and some gain boon (pick your favorite, you don't need born gain for eos imo)

being able to have high uptime on daybreakers is important early on in a run so hecuba helps here

but with ares around now, I wonder if ares attack is the way

I haven't tried much eos since warsong dropped

zeus special on it got buffed a little bit too, cause if you're spamming specials or using omega special, your daybreaker would spread blitz to a lot of enemies but might not activate it, but now blitz still activates at the end of its timer so that's nice

that's if you're not following your daybreaker close tho which is usually better dps

[formal pulsar]

i have to say that the mental block nerf didn't make pick any other athena boon any more. I am now just hard rolling for the dash. it reduced acceptable options from 2 to just 1.

[candid ledge]

yeah for sure, boon choices are the last thing I'm focusing on. Occassionally there's a decision point on a certain menu later in the run that may matter but it is mostly the positioning/movement. I'm just not moving well enough on the surface on frenzy 2 honestly. A lot of 'avoidable' hits are hurting me early on and frustrating me on certain aspects which I feel are just too slow. Ephyra makes me want to really really rush and I think as a result I struggle getting through it cleanly barring using something OP like medea or whatnot.

My target selection has improved a lot I feel but still positioning/movement are lacking

I think ultimately I just need more hours in the game. I've done <10 surface runs since the update and basement going smoothly has made me forget what struggling is like

[sage flame]

making the jump to frenzy 2 is tough at first but you'll get used to it

esp surface enemies haha

[left moat]

is total eclipse worth building with?

[surreal hazel]

If you get a double sublime path then maybe

Eminence is amazing, devastation is comedy, excess is ehhh, but also kinda buggy

[formal pulsar]

i loooove total eclipse with the immunity purple perk.

[sage flame]

idk if you can make a whole build around it but it's one of the better hexes (and my personal favorite)

always good to add a big damage spike

and yeah, as said above, the purple invuln path of stars upgrade is the goat

[uneven palm]

Zeus is still good. But high rolling Ares special with Grievous blow feels great https://youtu.be/0uezuMH6X4E?si=6-oqAtfezmvtFZhE

[sage flame]

mmm ares

yummy funny numbers

[deft dagger]

CHAT I DID IT

https://i.imgur.com/caQvm8Q.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/OuXWGfn.jpeg

[steady crater]

Question about aspect of moros
Against Schelemus, the normal attack deals 20 damage and the o attack deals 40
But when they explode because i touch them with a special (which does 25 btw), they do 60 and 30 respectively, even though moros (rank I) says

Blast damage: +0%

[formal pulsar]

are god keepsakes just useless on the rift? i feel like i never actually get a boon with the onion vow

[uneven palm]

The explosion damage is not the same as bonk damage. Aspect’s bonus just boosts the explosions further with a built-in damage boost

[uneven palm]

They’re a gamble. Rift loves giving 0-1 boons

[formal pulsar]

not gonna risk it anymore ig just equipping leaf from now on

[uneven palm]

Athena’s good too

[solemn carbon]

is Swift runner worth taking now that it lets you phase?

or still kind of a waste

But damn, new arcana changes are kind of wild. iframes on cast seems busted once you get used to it

[spare kite]

Divinity trigger mostly

[solemn carbon]

i never used it for that before, but maybe since they moved some cards around I'll use it for that purpose I guess. I just started a fresh save so still don't know all the arcana changes

[sage flame]

I like it cause mel feels so slow without it

and it lets you go through the thorn bushes in fields without taking damage

it's only 1 grasp anyway

[wise idol]

It’s actually an amazing card and a divinity trigger, 100% worth imo

[solemn carbon]

oh you can phase through obstacles that usually require dash, not just enemies?

Does that mean you can sprint through the gaps in thessely?

[proper cedar]

i need to beat 20 fear typhon with the staff, any good builds? (i've tried ares meat grinder momus from helian but it didn't work, any other ideas?)

[sage flame]

no lol

seems to be enemies and I guess stationary hazards? tbf it doesn't limit it to just enemies

should work with persephone tho >:(

[wise idol]

feedback that if you havent already

[sage flame]

I have been marching about persephone passing through enemies for a while, lemme find the latest one

#h2-feedback message

my first argument was that the other omega specials pass right through enemies, I assume it's a side affect of how persephone works but now that they implemented swift runner it's clear there's some way to have it work

[wise idol]

upvoted

[jovial pivot]

I assume ares hp is kinda needed here no?

[sage flame]

like the heal?

[jovial pivot]

ya

[sage flame]

nah i would not say needed

its nice if you dont use scars

[jovial pivot]

whats the overall arcane set up here

I dont really use magic builds often

[sage flame]

uhh

[uneven palm]

Rolls and cash, strength, persistence, origination, furies, sorceress. Rest is up to you

[sage flame]

left column, strength, persistance, origination, from there its all like preference

[uneven palm]

No, you wouldn’t want to be hanging below 40 HP anyway haha

[jovial pivot]

Is the unseen needed?

[heavy panther]

still no clue how anybody is doing high fear runs on the surface, only because of Typhon clouding the screen with nonsense

he makes chronos seem like a coughing baby

[bleak night]

I just kill him in under a minute so he has no time to fill the screen with bs

[heavy panther]

I can do that with Ares, but I don't see how I'm supposed to even accomplish that with other gods unless I get blessed rolls

maybe zeus

[bleak night]

White Antler if you have Heph for defensives. I have runs up if you wanna see the amount of damage I'm doing

[heavy panther]

alright, to be fair I do use moon water way too often lol

the run I just won I got bent by rolls not giving me the I-frames upgrade for it, which is the entire reason I ever pick it

[bleak night]

That happens yeah

I just build full offense with Heph as support/utility fpr the most part

[heavy panther]

more reliable for sure
first run I was able to beat typhon was just using heph to stack my hp to the sky and then use brave face to face tank until I won

[jovial pivot]

What weapons are the best

Torches really are not my thing

[bleak night]

Charon is turbo strong rn

[jovial pivot]

Same build I assume

[bleak night]

just adds Poseidon to the core for Geyser Spout yeah

[jovial pivot]

Hera, athena pyke and throw poseidon in there

And hephaestus support

[heavy panther]

athena pike does seem to make the entire game a joke even up to 16 heat

but I still lost to typhon with it multiple times

[bleak night]

don't quite need Righteous Pike. You start Apollo and find Dem for Cast. On Special it's Hera/Zeus/Ares

Apollo Gain is best in slot for it over Born Gain, means you don't have to get a lot of max MP

[jovial pivot]

Ares heal in there just in case or is it not needed?

[bleak night]

Ares for Grievous Blow so you can Wound from afar and then your further combos have a chance to do 2x damage

[heavy panther]

is judgment/ strength worth it on arcana?

[bleak night]

people run Strength over Death Defiances a lot more now

[stray notch]

Is charon the meta axe now?
How do you play it?

[sage flame]

https://tenor.com/view/always-has-been-among-us-astronaut-space-betrayal-gif-23836476

[sage flame]

apollo gain

[stray notch]

Apoll on cast and special and attack?

[heavy panther]

isn't it apollo/dem and grab zeus if you can?

spam casts and specials that cover the screen

[stray notch]

Dunno im asking

[sage flame]

hera special used to be main meta

but apollo gain is the main key to it just cause it synergizes really well, can just build what you want after

then get ocast bonuses like geyser spout from pos, local climate from dem that sorta thing

[junior trail]

whats meta for charon special now though, ares?

[sage flame]

NOT prominence flare tho, that'll lock out your cast until it ends

[jovial pivot]

So much work for a golden statue

[heavy panther]

did mental block get nerfed or is it still worth taking?

[sage flame]

idk maybe for ares special, maybe it's still hera but ares is a good supplement for any build cause opening up grievous blow is so strong

[sage flame]

duration nerfed, have to time deflects now

[heavy panther]

that's fair I guess

never fond of nerfs in roguelites, but SG knows best I suppose

[jovial pivot]

16 shot pan was fair

[sage flame]

i think nerfs are fair when the thing being nerfed leads to brainless strategies like patch 1 momus or the recent 5 skull occurance

[heavy panther]

I think for weapons in hades in makes sense, but for boons/items that you only ever have a random chance of getting, it seems kinda silly to nerf them in a single player game where part of the fun is getting a broken build

[cyan nest]

just 1 normal boon+weapon is too easy to get with a trinket and rerolls. leg or duo, hammers, sure

[dense ridge]

Speaking of broken builds! Dunno how intentional it is, but turns out you can get triple hammers on the surface route if you're clever

(and lucky)

If you start a run with Artificer and don't get a hammer in the first two locations, one will be set as the reward in a room in Ephyra. If you then do a different room with a side area that produces a minor reward, you might be able to roll it into a hammer. I haven't yet verified in the run if this prevents the hammer in olympus from rolling, though

So I suppose I should say there's a chance for triple hammers, otherwise it's just two hammers really early.

[timid temple]

phalanx shot is def worse than mental block or divine dash but my god does it feel good

[heavy panther]

for the most part I agree, but the opportunity cost for using athena's trinket is enough to warrant her boons being broken imo
if you're not good enough, on high heat you'll just lose regardless of the boon

[magic moss]

wym that was so balanced

5 skulls mel skulls and was the best :))

no flaws whatsoever

[heavy panther]

balanced against what though? it's a single player game

if it's too easy just... don't do it?

[magic moss]

sgg has made pretty deliberate efforts to keep the aspect levels across the board relatively even, like yes some aspects are stronger than others but its not like one aspect is vastly superior. 5 skulls mel skulls was just that, it was so incredibly strong it just invalidated any arguments about other aspects

[uneven palm]

Use Origination and Furies arcana. Start Apollo and take his gain. Boom, you have an infinite magick machine. The loop is run up, cast, immediately hold special, boom. You can dash at nearly any point while holding special to avoid getting hit. The cast explosion is larger left-right than up-down so dash left-right or diagonal (when you have the option, prioritize not getting hit) to stay in the circle to get your magick back.

You can do other robust gains (Hera, Ares, Zeus) but nothing compares to the synergy of Apollo. You don't need to get insane amounts of magick, and frankly if you never see Apollo again in the run that's fine you already have the most important thing from him.

From there you scale up two ways. First, get Origination online between cast/special. Any combination of curses is fine. Ideal is Demeter cast, Hera special but take anything that gets you Origination. Second, take Poseidon's keepsake and fish for Geyser Spout—boost the rarity—for a huge damage boost on the casts.

good hammers are Giga Cleaver and Sudden Cleaver maybe Melting Shredder and literally nothing else

[oblique ruin]

What yall thoughts about uncanny plus burn offering?

[willow phoenix]

I got +280hp once from it lol

[spare kite]

I need to stop playing antler for a while to appreciate that combo

I reached the "turn off Prometheus card" point

[bleak night]

I got Fine Line before Prometheus and it did 40k https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1233146305308528650/1346304001846542346/image.png?ex=67c7b2cf&is=67c6614f&hm=40214d858d568d3cc2e4192f75972e533596432dde236d374342dc54f150e59b& how did I survive without it

[oblique ruin]

Yeah I got well over 400 the other day

[hollow tendon]

cardio gain doesnt work with the coat of nights rockets even though it says it gives you magic per attack/special hit, is this intentional or a bug?

[signal coral]

anyone have 32 fear suggestions?
in terms of arcana/vows

I play a few different weapons but I'm gonna try to do some runs with momus

wait, can we not post images here

https://i.imgur.com/vNdgkl1.png
https://i.imgur.com/mVhjsiJ.png

this is a newer file so I don't have everything unlocked/max yet

this is what I'm currently running with for planned 32 heat underworld

(surface 32 might take a while to work up to since im not really used to the enemy attacks yet and idk if I can run +100% damage up there without getting instantly deleted)

[sage flame]

god looming ignition on medea is wild

[willow phoenix]

Personally I'd say run the bottom left 3 for more rerolls. Having rerolls helps a lot in making builds

For fear don't run that much pain, I don't really feel like it's worth the fear. Probably wards, scars, forfeit, frenzy 2.

[sage flame]

i wouldnt probably recommend pain 3 but the rest is chill, id take at least 1 or 2 scars, maybe a point into grit. if you can take it, i recommend frenzy 2 also, 3 fear is worth

[signal coral]

i cant do frenzy 2 yet

too hard :<

maybe i should learn it, but might take a while

[sage flame]

for momus i would probably take off huntress, get your last grasp point and put on the other reroll card

[signal coral]

tbh huntress and the two dash arcana are mostly just filler because i didnt know what else to take

[sage flame]

can take it out of messanger for now if needed

[signal coral]

huntress is just there for the epic boon thingy

[willow phoenix]

Still probably better than pain 3 tbh lol, you can cheese most mobs with something like freeze or burst damage

[signal coral]

the last time i tried frenzy 2 i got absolutely destroyed on the surface

though that was a while ago

[sage flame]

at the end of the day its all preference

[signal coral]

ill probably try learning frenzy 2 if you think its a lot better than the other options

underworld is probably going to be fine with either option since i dont take thaaaat much damage down there

[sage flame]

idk ive had it perma on for like months at this point so im super used to it but i understand surface frenzy is crazy

[signal coral]

but on the surface i cant deal with enemies on frenzy 2 and my plan for the peak is just face-tank

so i cant increase damage and i cant decrease healing and i cant increase speed :<

[willow phoenix]

If you're comfortable with no eternity, I'd personally just go for boatman, enchantress, night by deactivating eternity, huntress, messenger, lovers

[signal coral]

how important do you think eternity is? if its not that important i can deactivate it for extra rerolls

[willow phoenix]

Not really tbh lol

[sage flame]

i dont think its super important for 3 grasp but its nice since you are planning momus, but i dont usually take it

[willow phoenix]

You can add some freeze for extra time which you'd probably want anyway

[sage flame]

arctic ring my goat

[signal coral]

also should i really turn off lovers?

actually if im not doing increased damage as much then lovers is less important

ive kind of just been crutching on it to buffer my face tank abilities

[sage flame]

i like lovers a lot tbh

[willow phoenix]

It's still good but I personally don't run it because I don't run that much scars lol

And I find bosses to be the easiest part of 32

[signal coral]

i think underworld bosses i mostly dont have issues with

so I can probably turn off lovers
surface i will just have to keep learning since im still pretty bad there

i had a run where i took 400 damage to typhon before killing him (with strength, so really 800 damage)

[sage flame]

yeah id say if ur comfortable with no slow down, take off eternity for enchantress, and can move huntress grasp to night (works with momus)

at the least

[signal coral]

i thought night didnt work on momus turrets?

[sage flame]

it works on the initial only yeah

but youre still rotating omegas so you can get nice crits sometimes

[willow phoenix]

I find staying in front of Typhon's face to be much easier. Especially if you have divine dash since the timing for i framing his chin is pretty generous, especially on higher frenzy

[signal coral]

ty lads

[sage flame]

glgl 🫡

[signal coral]

I will probably try to do underworld only and leave high heat surface for after i learn the bosses more/learn how to play frenzy 2 probably

olympus/summit are both kind of rough there for me

[sage flame]

honestly surface i can def argue for only one frenzy, will conserve a lot of hp through olympus especially

[magic wyvern]

What are good boons for aspect of Selene build?

[junior trail]

coat in general loves static shock

[magic wyvern]

you think it would work with ares well?

[analog ether]

Any percent damage on the attack is generally good, since the attack hits decently hard to begin with.

Special is mostly better for applying status

Or Poseidon, of course.

[sage flame]

ares works well with everything smile

[analog ether]

Basically, if it's good for Mel coat, it's good for Selene coat.

Cut Above would actually also be pretty good, because you're already incentivized to use Omegas so that you can use your Hex more.

[willow phoenix]

Apollo attack makes the o attack huge

Which is nice for selene

[analog ether]

Naturally, you want a good magic gain.

[uneven palm]

Either use Night arcana and get big percentages on attack/special (Apollo attack is aces) or use Origination getting it online between cast/attack/special to power up your space lasers. Take the Moon Beam keepsake at some point to power up your hex it’s a ton of damage. The Omega special is the better move and you should prioritize hammers around that (Shimmering or Ripper rockets) but the big punch is fun.

[magic wyvern]

bet bet appreciate it guys

[uneven palm]

Weed Killer, Controlled Burn, Cut Above, and Fine Line make Omegas expensive which you want to get Skyfall up faster

[analog ether]

Hestia or Zeus on attack isn't bad either, but that more depends on if you get the Hex upgrade that applies your Attack Boon to it.

[uneven palm]

Yeah you can do fun stuff with Ferocity

[willow phoenix]

I like Ares for attack more because it works with ferocity and it works for o attack big damage

[uneven palm]

Romantic Spark + Ferocity is very entertaining https://youtu.be/QJHlkKjTqsE?si=sdLkimMhs09mliV6

[west beacon]

So i've been thinking about Judgement arcana a lot and think I found the most efficient (but maybe bad) route. The right column can be completed with Selene-Night-Lovers-Queen-Judgement, which activates Divinity. Then you have 1 more you're able to activate at your whim, like Death Strength or Origination or something. This awakens 7 arcana for 5+(1 through 5) grasp, good for Void. Divinity, Queen, and Lovers are really good while night and selene are kinda situational/whatever.

Ephera is kinda free but rift could be spicy if you don't land anything you consider core and did not take like Origination/Strength/Persistence/Wayward

[bleak night]

nice

[west beacon]

Having 7 arcana there by default means after region1 you have 12, after region2 you have 17 which is the most you can possibly take. Protective keepsakes like Onion, Engraved Pin, Gorgon Amulet, or Silken Sash can prevent early death or something like Lion Fang can make sure you're able to be greedy early and still go for more difficult options to scale faster. Then once you complete region 3, you have all but 3 arcana! -1 if you take piggy some time, and another -1 if Circe gives you an arcana.

[formal pulsar]

what's the consensus on the best hammer for mel torches? clean candle, clean helix, triple helix?

[bleak night]

Clean Candle, Sustained Spark, etc. Just the attack ones because it can abuse Fine Line the best out of all 3

[modest dagger]

i'm gonna run a build where I get the hammer on knives that makes it shoot more knives on special, and the one that makes it so they shoot in a straight line. which florish boon should I run?

[bleak night]

Moros can abuse it just as well but to a slightly lesser degree since it prefers to be melee

[bleak night]

if Pan just go Poseidon

[modest dagger]

good idea but i'm also down to do other ones since I did panseidon like 35674852941 times

[outer ginkgo]

any good surface builds

[civic ocean]

Aphrodite start and shotgun in their face into Island Getaway can be fun

[analog ether]

It takes a bit more time to set-up, but Freezer Burn (Hestia/Demeter) can also be pretty good.

[civic ocean]

Yes, I do enjoy freezer burn pan too

I used to like Pan with Air Quality Scorch back in the day too

[formal pulsar]

fine line explosive intent torch o attack primed out 500 magick with born gain at typhon 😳😳

[analog ether]

Did you kill him before you ran out of magic?

[formal pulsar]

https://i.imgur.com/8mRuXHx.png

[formal pulsar]

had literally one omega attack left

[analog ether]

Worth it.

[celest belfry]

Curious question since I'm up against a choice, does Hermes: Hard Target affect Typhon at all? (Slow ranged shots boon)

[timid temple]

presumably it affects the projectiles lol

[celest belfry]

It does say some

[gleaming gyro]

I am looking for something in this channel that can do a down run on heat lvl 16 very easily that works with the toad

[timid temple]

eh tbh the proj speed down buffs have never excited me

cough cough calculated risk.

[celest belfry]

I went with it. Helped against the mobs he spawned and gave me some extra time to evade big boy 😆

[obsidian remnant]

i was about to ask haha i was curious

[celest belfry]

Won! Boom

[gleaming gyro]

No one answered my question?

[obsidian remnant]

tbf while its an international server a lot of users are in the US and it’s late

most ppl would say poseidon special daggers on pan aspect (i hate them personally)

idk whats “very easy” for you as far as fear goes but for 16 i usually do a combo of wards, frenzy, hubris, grit, shadow, and uhhh the one that gives armored enemies different perks that i can never remember the name of

underworld is pretty easy but there are some tight spaces in oceanus that can be problematic and those stupid brawlers in fields, so i recommend not taking frenzy 2 unless you’re used to it already

[analog ether]

Do we think that Winner's Circle buffs Glorious Disaster?

Also, I'm sorry, but since when could Icarus appear on Olympus?

[civic ocean]

Glorious Disaster makes Winner's Circle worse is more how the interaction goes

With GD you basically only ever want it on Persephone because it limits your ability to replace casts but Persephone doesn't care about that penalty

[civic ocean]

Any build following any form of common sense can do this

Pick your favourite god, look up a duo boon that you want to go for, aim for it, and you'll get there eventually

[analog ether]

Do we know what the actual size of Typhon's hitbox is?

I'm wondering how strong Eos is against him specifically. I know it's generally regarded as the worst of the torches, but still.

[surreal hazel]

Yes, notably the swirly bombardment attack. The swirling projectiles turn at the same rate but move slower, so they basically stay still

[surreal hazel]

Makes it safe to actually cast it, so yes

[stable lichen]

i wish they'd give us infinite rerolls for the start of run RNG thing, you can easily reset it by giving up and rerolling anyways

actually never mind that would change literally nothing lmfao, rerolling more than once is pointless if you dont see what rng you have anyways

please ignore me

[fair horizon]

I mean, they could show the first two rewards... But still even if the god(dess) you want is one of those rewards, the RNG is very stubborn often and won't give you the boons you want early even with all rerolls spent... So still would end up Giving Up -> Resetting.

[prisma wind]

How do you get that? I still don't have the recipe for it

[silent crow]

kill typhon and chronos 7 times

[prisma wind]

Both 7 times? Oh

So i need to kill Typhon a lot more

I don't even know how many times i killed him

[fair horizon]

I think you also need the 16-fear statues, which is a bit silly, but it might be the case.

[prisma wind]

I already have that one

[silent crow]

no player playing below that level will be using it anyway

[prisma wind]

True

[uneven palm]

The speedrun mods for H1 just offered all the cores at once for your first boon to address that

[nova cairn]

Fought (and died) to spawn of typhon with pan knives 💀

that fight with that aspect feels a bit....

[lapis star]

is toula generally the best familiar because of the extra death def?

[median anvil]

the death defiance is just 10 hp

you may as well just take the frog 🐸

[prisma wind]

Frinos, more like Goatnos

[twilit tendon]

no it's the worst because you can't use Strength with toula

[lapis star]

i prefer to use death defs tho, feel like its safer

[median anvil]

even as a death def user toula isn't good

[twilit tendon]

it would honestly work better as a stubborn defiance, or something 9-lives related

her maxed-out DD is still less than luckier tooth rank 1

[lapis star]

aw ok imma stick with frog then

[prisma wind]

Stick with the GOAT

[median anvil]

frinos is goated with the sauce

[twilit tendon]

since there are 6 weapons what about a sixth familiar, a GOAT ?

[median anvil]

SHEEP

[twilit tendon]

that just screams and annoy your ennemies to death

[median anvil]

we need a sheep familiar from polyphemus' barn

[prisma wind]

If you pick the sheep and get transformed by Hecate, she's just confused and doesn't know which one is Mel /jk

[slate trench]

what are some of the biggest numbers you guys got for end of run cast damage with heph?

[stable lichen]

they should’ve just done that ngl

although they’d somehow have to find a way to display all 5 on a normally 3 boon screen

[nova cairn]

9 times out of ten I think hecuba is best

but thats only if u use mana, otherwise frinos

[stable lichen]

if there’s a 6th familiar i wanna borrow aetos since prometheus probably becomes friendly postgame

[nova cairn]

Hecuba also being able to dig up mana and also +10 health from digging spots is broken

[stable lichen]

raki is fun too, i think frinos > hecuba > raki but the latter 2 are close

[stable lichen]

yeah but born gain exists

and if you’re not using a mana heavy build you don’t need that much

[nova cairn]

compared to toula who... gives u a 10hp death defiance and attacks when you run into her (lol), Raki is good, gale is a bit mid, frinos hp is always nice but thats about all u use him for

[twilit tendon]

Gale is pretty nice too

[stable lichen]

oh yeah i forgot gale lmao

gale is not stupid proof

because i’m stupid i will inevitably use all charges on random dumb enemies

[nova cairn]

pan knives like it, fine line torches like it etc

[stable lichen]

he’s objectively good but i prefer frinos because of gale having a narrow margin of error

[nova cairn]

momus likes it

[stable lichen]

i just use it with pan momus non eos torches

[nova cairn]

i run raki with medea skull, frinos with axe etc.

[stable lichen]

but frinos is overall a lot more versatile

[magic moss]

raki >>>>

[stable lichen]

i run raki if i’m fairly confident and playing a chill run and i just want big damage

if i’m pushing fear or something i do frinos

[nova cairn]

Raki medea skull si funny

[stable lichen]

do the pets get buffed by the hermes chance boon

like hecubas food dig and rakis crit rate

[magic moss]

frinos is interesting in terms of the "best" pet discussion because in optimal play, hes kinda useless

[stable lichen]

so is gale

[magic moss]

like do you consider the fact that people are going to mess up when discussing what pets are the best

[stable lichen]

well ig you have extra move speed

[magic moss]

probably yes, but then how much do you value it

[stable lichen]

i guess the only use for optimal frinos is hearty appetite lmao

[jovial pivot]

Imagine if frinos stood still on command

Effectively trivializing eris

[stable lichen]

but do we take into account different optimal playstyles with pets

eg the optimal way to dodge sheep without frinos is different from the optimal way to dodge sheep with frinos

[magic moss]

again with optimal play you shouldnt need frinos to dodge sheep or even if you do get hit, you shouldn't be getting hit within that 10 sec hex window

[stable lichen]

i mean with the most optimal play you need literally nothing to win

[magic moss]

frinos is interesting in the sense that the only way you get value out of the pet is to play suboptimally

[stable lichen]

so is gale though

ignoring the teeny movement speed buff

[civic ocean]

On some weapons and circumstances I think it’s optimal to use frinos to beat eris too fwiw it foregoes you having to dodge

[magic moss]

gale isnt as extreme because the extra ms is helpful, but otherwise yeah

[stable lichen]

or even toula because she does pathetic damage anyways

hell, if you were playing optimally without hecuba you would still be able to use your default attacks and specials to win without the extra magick

i think playing “optimally” is a bit of a hard metric because very little is needed if you’re absolutely perfect

[magic moss]

i mean yeah, i would know

[stable lichen]

lmao the flex

deserved though

[magic moss]

im viewing frinos specifically in the metric that all it does is give health as its main pet effect and a projectile block as a bonus, which considering you shouldn't be getting hit much as you get better, the effects are reliant on the runner making a mistake. Toula is, to some extent, the same as well with the DD, but at least she has some independent value with her activated attack. Its bad and deals little damage, but its more controllable and active than frinos randomly hopping around. Gale gives ms which is good, but the deflect is again reliant on user error. Only Hecuba and Raki have effects that do not rely on user error, and instead rewards/encourages a more optimal playstyle managing mana and dealing damage.

"optimal" play for me doesn't necessarily mean clearing with as little as possible. Its more of the approach of how much of the run can be chalked up to your own skill to not get hit or punished. If you can win runs without any defensive utility, then i would consider it as close to "optimal" play as possible

but again, mistakes WILL happen in a run. So the question is how much do you value being able to make mistakes when considering the value of a pet when the end goal/“optimal” play is to make as little mistakes as possible

[stable lichen]

this is similar to movement speed on gale being useful for being quicker technically though

less time spent dodging sheep means you beat the witches and hecate at a faster pace

(my reception is horrible)

[stable lichen]

yeah that’s fair, i get you

but in absolutely ideal play i feel like you would be leveraging frinos to basically dish out more damage while having to dodge less

not saying that’s realistic though for a real person

[magic moss]

every single boss move can be dodged without any ms increase. The hex fired lasts a consistent duration before it disappears regardless of whether you have increased ms or not

[civic ocean]

Wow somebody not positioning themselves optimally so that frinos hops on the enemies could not be me

[stable lichen]

yeah but if frinos eats the spell up instantly you’d be able to turn your attention to ending the fight faster idk

[civic ocean]

This is also true about your hp, even if you play perfectly you can use your HP as a resource to take more aggressive lines

[sage flame]

what context are we talking about familiars in lol

[stray notch]

Could you guys explain me how Rousing Reception works please?

[magic moss]

this again is an isolated instance situation. Raki and Hecuba give more value than frinos in the other guardian fights, so is taking frinos just for hecate valuable enough.

Disclaimer: Everythjing I’m talking about is under the presumption you are playing “optimally” as in taking as little damage as possible and being able to dodge the majority of attacks

[magic moss]

what is the “best” familiar

[civic ocean]

If your cast is down, the enemy be clowned, no matter where they are found, when they come to town

[stable lichen]

in the context of playing the game absolutely perfectly

[stray notch]

Sorry i still dont get it ^^"

[sage flame]

including every damn enemy in the fields 😩

[sage flame]

place your cast before enemies spawn and they'll take damage

[stable lichen]

hurts enemies when they spawn if the cast is down

[civic ocean]

Dunno how I could have been clearer, does not matter if foes are nearer!

[stable lichen]

yeah i agree those two are better but i wouldn’t say frinos is absolutely worthless if you play perfectly

[stray notch]

So if i exoplode my charon I hit evertything even if offscreen?

[civic ocean]

No the cast has to be alive

[stable lichen]

when you place down your cast not when you explode it

[civic ocean]

I don’t think its when you place the cast its when they spawn

[stray notch]

Ah ok, so since I have Artic ring I freeze everything is on the area even if off screen?

[sage flame]

I agree in super optimal play raki or hecuba are the goats but most people aren't there, there's a reason why frinos is still slightly ahead in use rate on the 50f clears, tho I know there's a backlog of 50f clears and it could be usurped for raki supremacy

[stable lichen]

no it’s just flat damage i wish it were that op lol

imagine just clang clang clanging every single enemy on the fields with rousing reception

[stable lichen]

i don’t think it’s humanly possible to be absolutely perfect

[sage flame]

the original boon it was based off of (original engagement ring) actually spread hitch and the damage to enemies that spawned in, making it insane clear potential

[stable lichen]

although this dude named TAS can probably do it, he’s really good at other videogames too

[slate trench]

no but its definitely possible to play well enough that the hp boost from frinos won't really matter much, you don't need to go hitless

[stable lichen]

yeah, but people still pick frinos

while you can be at that level, it’s always good to have a safety net

since people are inherently inconsistent and will make mistakes

[slate trench]

frinos is definitely a valid choice, personally I feel like the dog helps me more. No shot of clearing erebus with timer 3 on a magic based build without the dog especially with the vow that primes your magic

[magic moss]

oh 100% frinos isnt useless. I’m just saying frinos isnt the “best” familiar for the aforementioned reasons. Though with how I’m arguing the better term should be that frinos isnt the most “optimal” familiar

[magic moss]

xdd backlog

[stable lichen]

i think it’s “best familiar in the context of perfect play” strictly speaking but yeah

sorry if i’m being a bit of a pedant

[magic moss]

its fine

[stable lichen]

(although personally i’d say perfect play is being at 1hp due to mutual destruction lol)

[magic moss]

tho with how things are currently shaping up, only raki and hecuba are in contention for best familiar given the context of the current height of human play

[stable lichen]

yeah

weirdly enough trusty shield and mint condition are F tier boons with that metric lol

[slate trench]

everyone has different approaches, I like how hecuba enables a totally different playstyle from right out of the gate, I value that more than a bit more hp or a bit more damage (raki) although raki is nice on no magic builds

[formal pulsar]

Being tanky allows you to play more aggressively and make plays you wouldn't otherwise make. it is not a mistake a eat a hit to clear a room faster. Now I am not saying that frinos is better or anything but having defense allows for more aggressive plays and that should also be considered when comparing familiars.

[stable lichen]

hecuba is situational for me, if i’m using a mana less weapon hecuba is entirely useless

[slate trench]

Maybe but one could also argue that perfect gameplay insinuates using trusty shield perfectly, i.e balls to the wall to time save but taking just enough dmg to remove the armor and nothing more

[stable lichen]

yeah “perfect play” is hard to define

i’m going off of minis definition of not getting hit at all since that’s the most straightforward

[formal pulsar]

yeah despite the fact that mint condition is probably one of the best offensive boons in the game

[stable lichen]

offensive and defensive id argue

[formal pulsar]

you can instantaneously rush Prometheus to transition to phase 2 if you have mint condition and just go and hammer him at the start of the fight rather than waiting for the bird to fly away.

[stable lichen]

who knew being literally invincible to anything is so overpowered

it also trivialises summit rooms

[formal pulsar]

cannot believe it was double the amount before lol

[stable lichen]

it wouldve been funny after they nerfed trusty shield they renamed it rusty shield lol

although it's still a great boon just not prewarsong levels

[primal phoenix]

Just got the Aspect of Artemis, what do you play with her ?

[sage flame]

most attacks work with artemis, id just avoid poseidon

[signal coral]

idk if you care but underworld 32 feels very doable from the attempts I've made

erebus is a bit sketchy with a 5 minute timer, i ran it a few times and im like very close to dying to timer every time (I usually finish with between 0 and 30 seconds left on the clock), but the timer is fine in other zones

the chronos fight is a slog but I would have won if the game didnt troll me, he did his instant kill attack (the one with the ring in the middle of the stage) but then bugged out and just stood there with no animations playing for 5 seconds, so i assumed that the attack was over and walked into melee range of him and got instakilled as soon as I left the safe zone

I think the main optimization I have to make is playing faster in erebus, idk what would speed things up

im taking onion instead of frenzy 2, which probably doesnt help erebus clears

[sage flame]

depending on hammers you get, you can run normal attack spam, omega attack spam, even specials on artemis isn't bad cause the crits are good

[sage flame]

if you're getting out of erebus at all with 5 minute timer that's great!

and yeah the chronos instakill bug sucks, first time I ran into it i played it safe and just waited it out every time

[signal coral]

i did a few runs and erebus i usually leave with less than 30 seconds on the timer, oceanus is very fast and I usually start building a buffer there and fields, entering tartarus with around 9 minutes on timer usually

so if I get my erebus clears down faster I think timer should be no issue, because thats the main place I might die

is it worth it to take a god keepsake into erebus if im running onion?

[sage flame]

tart with 9 minutes left is good, as long as your build has enough damage

[signal coral]

i might consider just leveling lion fang and running it in erebus if god keepsake doesnt matter

[sage flame]

yes cause it'll still want to give you that god, just it'll be delayed. athena starts, lion fang starts, even fig leaf starts all can work

just make sure you have rerolls for the god you want