h2-builds-and-combat

[limpid coral]

if u can keep sash armor for a full region u can try lol

[vale gate]

10% lethal snare vs 5% pressure points?

[limpid coral]

lethal snare op

[civic ocean]

Are you doing the thing that lethal snare does

[vale gate]

casting? yeah

[spare kite]

Which wep is this

[vale gate]

than axe

[limpid coral]

do u deal damage to foes in ur cast with ur attack

[magic moss]

btw we at 91 unique clears now

[cloud scarab]

how does spiral knives and pan interact? Does the shoot out in a circle override tracking enemies in the cast ?

[limpid coral]

same thing that happens if u throw a knife directly away from ur cast

it goes a little loopy

[cloud scarab]

So what the circle that is facing the cast will track the ones fired behind you won't go towards it?

[limpid coral]

the ones that go behind u will try their best

[cloud scarab]

so still a good combo then

[limpid coral]

probably just charge a bit less than the full circle so u dont waste mana and charge time if ur gain sucks

[cloud scarab]

I could go Sureshot Flurry or Spiral Knives with Pan at this point

[surreal hazel]

Don't worry too hard about the homing

Half the point is the bigger salvo, and certain upgrades make the homing somewhat moot

[civic ocean]

How many ppl

How many Selenes!

[magic moss]

you have the sheet, 19 people and no other selene starts other than you iirc idk epople dont report that stuff

[civic ocean]

Oh right I do have the sheet and the images are back

[magic moss]

yup everything is updated to the latest

[civic ocean]

A unique clear is the first time you clear on that aspect right

What was the 1 fear that mynt didn't use

[lyric slate]

where is the best place to ask general mechanic questions?

[civic ocean]

Here

[lyric slate]

you know the new aspects in this version, do they stack?

[magic moss]

rebuke 1

[civic ocean]

When you say aspects, are you referring to weapon aspects

You can only have one weapon aspect active at a time

[lyric slate]

for example the ascpect of melinoe and artemis

but how do you equip each one, cos i acn only upgrade them

[civic ocean]

Aspects are seperately selectable. Interact with the weapon to change it

[lyric slate]

ohhh

lol thanks

[timber pawn]

Last rebuke

[cloud scarab]

32 fear is just bonkers

at least for a pleb like myself

[cursive oyster]

what’s your vow setup?

[magic moss]

nah 32 is still a significant accomplishment

but also send fear and arcana, you might be making things infinitely harder for yourself

[west summit]

32 Fear Abandon

[cloud scarab]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/161575572684668938/1263578389395017809/image.png?ex=669abe94&is=66996d14&hm=80b15c411e110eaa1473e198d4201d1d4517a771403d2229d52fbd9bdffca2d4&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=825&height=412

[magic moss]

that certainly is a loadout

[limpid coral]

yikes

[cursive oyster]

put on arrogance, the priming goes away when you pom the boon

[cursive oyster]

blood 3 is way easier than suffering 2

[cursive oyster]

turn off onion

[magic moss]

remove bitterness and turn on arrogance2, scars2 over a thing of dominance or commotion, timer3 makes things a lot easier since you can remove more commotion, blood3 > suffering2

[cursive oyster]

oh wait thats scars 1? lmao

[tired fulcrum]

yikes

[cloud scarab]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/161575572684668938/1263579479117135872/image.png?ex=669abf97&is=66996e17&hm=2ffb625e3c0abeda5aef4c17b51119ffb872596c0b349d28f36fb598e78030dd&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=825&height=405

I just felt having less magic each room AND priming may be overkill (as I tend ti play fairly Omega focused)

[cursive oyster]

much better

[cursive oyster]

what weapon are you using?

[tired fulcrum]

Axe?

[cloud scarab]

alternating between Pan and Charon

[cursive oyster]

start lucid gain on charon and magic is not an issue

[stoic pecan]

Anyone know if blackened fleece affects Possessed Array?

[vale gate]

wait rly, is that a bug or intended

[cursive oyster]

bug sadly

[magic moss]

fury2 and completely remove commotion and you chilling

[cloud scarab]

wait you pom a boon that is say priming 20 magic for being heroic or whatever and you pom it, and the prime goes away? o.O

[steel sequoia]

it should

[cursive oyster]

yep

[steel sequoia]

this is a bug

[cloud scarab]

honestly fury 2 totally messes with my muscle memory 😄

I take so much dmg with it on

[cursive oyster]

way better than 60% more enemies

[cloud scarab]

actually still had the 60% more enemies on from a golden touch run 😄

[vale gate]

50f , here we go

[cursive oyster]

good luck

[civic ocean]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1241160250829049909/1263580975959638026/image.png?ex=669ac0fc&is=66996f7c&hm=4ef4790df27a7dbe07b075c4788c7af21994a3a9cb6e5f56f0f5fbbed131585c& this is what I did for charon 32 way back in the day

[silent crow]

max revs seems very viable for 32f now

[cursive oyster]

i’d add panic to that cause of new lucid

[civic ocean]

could probably swap blood and dominance for some rebuke now because of how the mechanics work differently

[vale gate]

they just collect them selves

[magic moss]

max revs with the rev changes are so much better its crazy like rev2 > commotion2 now

[limpid coral]

revs really got so much nicer esp for keyboard

[tired fulcrum]

The only annoying thing is hippo or tempus at the other side of the room

[tall notch]

Nah Charon doesn't really like rebuke that much, I'd pass on that at 32f

[silent crow]

ya i think ill seriously attempt 50f with the new revs + suffering changes

[magic moss]

oh yeah please do we 9 away from 100 unique clears

[silent crow]

i got to chronos with eos again but i forgot i actually maxed silver wheel so i can use mel torchesnow

[tall notch]

Could've been 8 but I just choked on Chronos p2.2 with Charon

[silent crow]

whats the optimal gain for mel torch

[tall notch]

I used aphro gain in my clear and it kinda worked but it wasn't amazing

[karmic current]

Bro i cant say anything

[silent crow]

[tall notch]

You just said something

[karmic current]

I cant lightly swear

[silent crow]

well aphro gain is rly weak so i guess a lot of things could work haha

[tall notch]

pun intended?

[silent crow]

not intended 😔

[tall notch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN79j1QS2B4 here's how aphro gain performed if you are curious

[vale gate]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1217358637836796004/1263585578746904649/image.png?ex=669ac546&is=669973c6&hm=a956f0b490d1b9ca1b072006619af55a23d6749627b754776a78f4eed0c9b665& would you roll

[tall notch]

how many rolls you got

And what fear is this

[vale gate]

4, and i already rolled once

50, i think im timing out anyway

[tall notch]

then you might as well try it and pray for highroll

[silent crow]

3 boons at the end of erebus 🥹

ahh u had clean candle that makes sense

[civic ocean]

I have had that happen maybe 10 times in 200 attempts lol

[tall notch]

It's the heph cast carrying the entire run

[silent crow]

😼

i think all my 50f's have had 3 boons
by chronos

i got no clue how yall are making actual builds

[uneven palm]

My Axe 50 had Heph cast too lol. Just strip the hearts my man

Also heph cast doesn’t unlock any blast tier 2s so if he shows up first it’s not the worst take

[tall notch]

On axe I am a massive fan of his special

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1233146305308528650/1261437299531583600/20240712224046_1.jpg?ex=669a34c8&is=6698e348&hm=917a4efd65f7d8414b1921abebbdd909e4c737ab0ee34a6f5d450ae7e7f740db&

[vale gate]

close

[bright token]

that's a very good timer with an axe

[tall notch]

I started droplet and got rapid in Erebus

[past salmon]

please stop

the gambling has to end
what are these keepsake starts

[tall notch]

Droplet is unironically a very good start for Mel axe, Erebus is hard with that thing

[west summit]

We need that double keepsake incantation I'm just sayin

[tall notch]

That would be absolutely busted

[west summit]

maybe it could activate from a specific amount of fear and up

[past salmon]

it would still be overly strong lol

[west summit]

what if they nerf pin

[past salmon]

ok
2 keepsakes is still busted lol
And there is no need for it regardless

[tall notch]

Also, what would happen if you clicked 2 god keepsakes?

I don't like the idea at all

[prisma wind]

How rare are the legendaries?
I'm trying to get Demeter's one but it just never appears

[silent crow]

quite rare

[west summit]

Maybe slot 1 and slot 2 and prioritise slot one’s god first?

[split igloo]

wow i just got the element boon bundle and i have a feeling this thing is op as can be... it's 5 strong boons in 1

[wild swan]

it's so good

[uneven palm]

Eh sometimes it rules other times you get 15 health, 3% dodge, and an inactive Frosty Veneer

[split igloo]

i got lucky with like 25% dodge and 5+ of each element so it all slaps hard

[glass tapir]

Not as op as sacrificing the duo boon to Hestia for HP/MP, then taking it again for more elemental boons.

[dreamy thicket]

Does the Concave Stone work with Chaos boons?

[tall notch]

Actually you can't get both 15 hp and veneer because they're both water infusions 🤓

[dreamy thicket]

Aww man if you have the new Triple Comet hammer for the flames, your Eos buddy doesn't copy all three specials - he only sends out one

[past salmon]

I fcking hate tarturus rng so much

ahahaha 50 armoured tempus 4 rooms in a row im having so much fun ahahahaha

rip another 50F Judgement Medea run

[timber pawn]

speeds 🤝 high fear

[limpid coral]

is the L shaped room with laser towers always the room with a few hammer guys and like 2034198 bags

i get bonked and think "oh, thats cool theres just a few more enemies i can make pin" and i walk into a corner and theres like 7 bags hanging out

[tired fulcrum]

I love how tart rooms are the biggest in the world and how tempuses and bag just wander around spread as far apart as possible

[limpid coral]

on a slightly related note

• run at armored hippo rev next to exit doors
• run at armored hippo that is moving at 18234798mph towards the opposite side of the room
• takes so long the rev following me revives
• 

[magic moss]

94 clears, 6 lefgt

[bright token]

you'll stop counting after 100?

[bright token]

yeaaah. i got really lucky with tart rooms on eos and staff. the floor differs way too much in clear speed
also if i understand correctly, you actually want armored, they count as more spawn meat, are they not?

[past salmon]

yes and no
Armoured tempus specifically are pretty awful
They shoot more and since they don't take hit stun its super dangerous (especially on medea) to attack them cuz sometimes you just get boomed

[magic moss]

nope just a big milestone

[bright token]

yeah i'm going to go run medea soon and i'm dreading some enemies. probablty just have to restart the runs i dont get mint condition in in erebus/oceanus

also i might be tripping but are there big tempus? or it's just a matter of camera perspective

[timber pawn]

no just armored, all same size

[bright token]

sometimes armored tempus appear bigger in size and seems like they count for much more of spawns

annoying enemy of course but my nemesis is and always will be the spinning death ray demon from hell doing legacy 88! instant dmg from the edge of the screen

[tall notch]

isn't everything dangerous on medea though

[timber pawn]

most of the time you can kinda blow stuff up before it hits you

[tall notch]

I tried 40f Medea today. Reached Chronos with three DDs. Died to him anyway because this weapon makes me tank every hit

[timber pawn]

armored tempuses have the 3 bullet they poop out pretty quick and the hitbox is the whole hourglass so you just get cooked

[limpid coral]

armored tempus is kind of a thing u either nuke before it shoots or just try to predict where the bullets are going and sometimes u do it wrong and boom 18 18 18

[bold jay]

I started with the game a couple days ago - found it a bit hard to get used to dodging after hades 1.
Now I feel like I"m using the axe as a bit of a crutch - it's pretty easy to get enough mana regen, that I can just mostly spam the axe secondary omega at everything that's dangerous
it starts with a block and then has crazy range and aoe so it makes a lot of things a lot easier

[timber pawn]

if you're using the Charon aspect axe, it is pretty well agreed upon the best wep in the game atm

so it makes sense you feel like it is strong

[bold jay]

i'm just using the vanilla axe 🙂 Haven't beaten it yet

[limpid coral]

I think getting all up in there and swinging at things is cool and fun so maybe try to use the ospecial less and have fun dying more for a little bit

[timber pawn]

well in that case you're really gonna love one of the axe aspects lol

[bold jay]

great 🙂

[timber pawn]

but ya when I was first getting into the game, I played whatever weapon was going to give me bonus bones

maybe consider that for a bit and trying different weps

[bold jay]

yeah I've been doing that mostly. except when the bonus is on the 5th weapon, which is kind of lame that that happens

and when the bonus is on the torches - they're pretty rough

[crude needle]

torches are fine once you get the hang of them and they do have a boosted aspect. for my first clear I used the knives with hook knives hammer

[limpid coral]

I think being super fixated on doing the safe and optimal things and trying really hard to win every time stops ppl from just exploring and having a good time, and its more stressful and less enjoyable imo

[past salmon]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1246695893361496087/1263660703173316608/Lunarraywtf.mp4?ex=669b0b3d&is=6699b9bd&hm=6c22361aac2450ad34e967189cf54af7498df85792497be02ceb017dbd431b93&

Why does this happen so often

[crude needle]

it was just safe, fun and had enough damage to clear a run

[limpid coral]

fairandbalanced

[bold jay]

man, died to cerberus 3 times now, feels bad

[past salmon]

did you see the last one

[limpid coral]

wtf why it so fast

[past salmon]

I DON'T KNOW

[limpid coral]

hecate go spinny

[crude needle]

he will eventually become pretty telegraphed... even on high fear. Don't worry, you got this

[past salmon]

it happened like 4 times in that fight

[bold jay]

thanks. It's a bit rough cause I felt like I dodged well, but ultimately he hit me once and it did like... a pile of damage and basically one shot me

right before I fought him, I had this obnoxious fight in the fields with one of those darkness guys. As soon as I would step into the darkness, the ground was already covered with those blood explosion things. took way too much damage dealing with that.

[crude needle]

ohhh dude i hate those blood zombies 😭😭😭 on high fear they just throw up and fill up the whole ground

[tired fulcrum]

They really should give it a noticeable telegraph because the current one is tiny invisible lines

[past salmon]

I was more talking about the giga speed one at the end

[timber pawn]

Ya wait what the heck. That was 2x speed lol

[bright token]

wait why did it speed up? does it always do that? never noticed

[past salmon]

I DONT KNOW
IT JUST HAPPENS SOMETIMES

[bright token]

hate deathrays

why does this game have so many of them with little to no telegrath

[tall notch]

i love spindles

[bright token]

and meli has a death ray, ironically it's also one of the best ways to get yourself killed

btw am i the only one who never plays hexes and cries every time they take a reward slot? i shouldn't be

[tall notch]

I quite enjoy them on builds that actually use enough mana to consistently proc them

[bright token]

btw does any curse have some sort of effect that would make it almost permanent?
imagine the turn into a nightmare curse would instead turn you into a frenzied ghoul that would build the hex meter up with hits and or kills?

probably too gore and grim for the art direction though

i'd play the hecks out of that hex 🥁

[tall notch]

idk if that counts but the ress hex has a node that makes the summon last until the end of the location

[half vale]

what mana regen boon is best with aspect of moros

[tall notch]

Hestia

[half vale]

even though it doesnt proc on the omega special?

[tall notch]

Proccing it on your attack is good enough to cover Moros' mana needs

[half vale]

fair enough ill give it a try. thx

[timber pawn]

I feel like lucid works pretty well as well

[bright token]

medea skulls are funny. if only you could trade all your boons for 2 mint conditions

[silent crow]

it procs on the blasts

[silent crow]

bosses are the easiest part of medea imo

[tall notch]

How do you even fight Chronos with that thing though

[silent crow]

you js play it like daggers

[tall notch]

But with daggers I can actually stand still while I do my attack combo while Medea wants me to special back and forth

[silent crow]

chronos sits still quite often

and bc medea does insane dmg u dont need that many openings

[half vale]

Oh cool ok

[bright token]

from what i gathered you need to trump him with dps relying on defences. mint condition and pin alone can give you enough time to pass phase1. unless he starts teleporting

[limpid coral]

whats preventing you from doing damage like with any other melee weapons u hit him between his swings n stuff

m1 m2 dash m1 m2 dash etc etc

[civic ocean]

the difference in range between axe/staff and medea is substantial like I can hit him with Mel Axe and be outside of range of his orbs and bubble

[tall notch]

1. every other weapon allowed me at least some range as opposed to having to special straight into him 2) other melee weapons can do their combo while standing still while Medea can't which is messing with my positioning

[civic ocean]

I think with Medea you do kinda have to DPS race him with Lovers Mint/Trusty and Pin

[limpid coral]

o the orbs yea those suck

[west summit]

I remember it happened to me once too

[civic ocean]

Unless he gives you lots of openings

[tall notch]

On medea even the suck move doesn't feel like an opening because special sending me just a little too far will result in taking damage

While on other weaps I'll usually get a few secs of free dps

[civic ocean]

could you like triple load it and use the ospec?

[tall notch]

Can you even charge the ospecial in that fight without sorceress

(also i likely won't have mana for that)

[civic ocean]

I dunno Medea ain't my jam I'm getting my butt blasted over and over again by 50 erebus Persephone trying to get air fryer off the ground

or 55 staff depending on the day

[tall notch]

I think air fryer is dead. The best thing to do with scorch is freezer burn

[civic ocean]

I dunno, we'll see

I think just storm ring flame strike is pretty dang good

I would imagine that Ice Strike Smolder Ring is probably really good on like torches tho right

[tall notch]

Other way round tbh

[civic ocean]

Oh I bet I haven't really messed around with it

[tall notch]

Ice strike has garbage scaling and the fast attack will stack a ton of scorch. Flame strike arctic ring is how I got 50f blades

Was hitting Chronos in the thousands with freezer burn

[civic ocean]

I'm pretty bad at doing 50 with skulls right now so I haven't given much thought to the build beyond "Storm Ring Static Shock Lightning Lance seems good, let's go for that"

[tall notch]

I only did Mel skulls and that was with patch 3 ER

I'm not sure if I've completed a run of Persephone since patch 2

[civic ocean]

I lose track of my bullets too easily atm

I haven't really played much skull at 50 though so the first hour of attempts getting out of erebus once not too shabby

I died in oceanus to getting flabbergasted by a chain combo from pinheads

[tall notch]

What helped me a lot was practicing my positioning, matters a lot for skulls

Esp if your save file is like mine and bolstered array doesn't exist

[civic ocean]

Which one is bolstered array is that the good one

[tired fulcrum]

i love oceanus spawning me in the middle of 10 enemies

[tall notch]

2 more skulls

[civic ocean]

I haven't done much thinking on the hammers, there's one that really disappointed me that says it does damage when it lands

But it doesn't count as landing if it lands on you

Haven't taken bolstered yet I'll try prioritizing hammers more ig

has anyone written a guide or anything to how Erebus works and what doors can be what skips and how those work

[tall notch]

Idk if there's a proper guide but Foolish seems to know everything about Erebus doors

I believe the first 4-5 rooms can't give Nem/Artemis, Nem fight rooms can't have a boon reward and Artemis has a limited selection of rewards she can show up for

[civic ocean]

5 can be nem and art

[tall notch]

It's first 4 that can't then

[civic ocean]

a lot of the speedcord info is out of date

I intuit that Artemis can't show up for hammers, selene, poms or boons (things with a menu)

But like things like cocoons, fountains, etc

[tall notch]

These things don't show up when you're doing 55f and have a promising build, it's confirmed

[magic moss]

god i am so hyper washed at this game

[civic ocean]

i haven't won a run in like 500 attempts, embrace failure as growth

[magic moss]

ive just largely lost the motivation and i played earlier today after not playing a run in like 2 days and just completely threw multiple god runs

[civic ocean]

Yeah I think once you're at 50+ it can be hard to play to win all the time

all I know is if I ever lower the number from 55 down to 50 again on staff I'm gonna be like Rock Lee or something, perhaps

[tall notch]

You'll get to Oceanus and throw because the serpent mini boss is new content to you

[civic ocean]

that's fine I think that will happen at some point at 55f TBH

[tall notch]

I guess farming Erebus is one way of adding replayability, the moment you get out you're seeing brand new content

[civic ocean]

I was musing on how hard it would be to mod the rewards as a proof of concept

[tired fulcrum]

You could also just save state it

ofc i reroll hera 3 times and get no attack

Why did they have to add back old old er as a boon its basically junk

Epic nexus sprint time

[tall notch]

You can remove a single blue heart, it's worth it trust

[civic ocean]

Something like

Onion
Bones
Mirrored Thrasher
Epic Hearth Gain
Chaos
Demeter Miniboss for Epic Arctic Ring
Nem victory
Midshop
Arachne
Fountain (bones/nectar)
Trial (Flame Strike + Winter Coat)
Hermes
Hecate

I think that would be a good enough launching pad to win a run from there

[tall notch]

Can you even get this many major finds in a region

[civic ocean]

(provided that Mirrored Thrasher and Hearth Gain work like I think they do, if not sub out Mirrored Thrasher for Rapid/Wicked/Extending, Hearth Gain for Flame Strike, and Flame Strike for Natural Gas)

[vale gate]

they do work

[civic ocean]

I think that is possible? it's 3 minor finds and 5 offered

If not you can swap out hermes for hestia and the trial for another minor find room that can be cocoons or artemis

[tall notch]

Also uh aren't you going to run oom with this setup and no titan

[civic ocean]

It is my understanding that Hearth Gain offsets almost all of the mana loss from mirrored thrasher

[tall notch]

Prime 20 from hearth gain, another 20 from arctic, then get rarity on flame strike/hermes (or just the prime from winter coat) and you're fully primed out

At 50 max magick

[civic ocean]

I guess you'd want a mana pot instead of hermes then yeah, or a pom to remove the prime

Or do rapid + flame stike+ natgas

that actually seems way more feasible for an antler start

[tall notch]

Is flame strike into arctic ring into freezer burn too unlikely to happen?

[civic ocean]

I think you could get that too yeah I just think Winter Coat is super good

and if you have so many skips you can probably fit in a trial with arctic ring + damage

I did once actually get Freezer Burn in erebus but I choked

The problem is that without antler or lion fang (and even sometimes with fang) the first 5 locations are an absolute nightmare

So the goal is to go Antler and then transition into a cracked build that can still kill things without Antler like Freezer Burn or Zeus+Dem

[tall notch]

I'm frankly not sure if staff has the damage for abandon runs period

[civic ocean]

It does if you have the goated luck

and play extremely well

I'm like aaaallllmost at the point where I think I have a shot at Locations 1-5 with Hestia start, just using the shades/trees/toula and grouping enemies and doing DA-A-A-A

So I'm going to start resetting way more often

And not playing out bad starts and getting tired

[vale gate]

Modpack when

[cunning pollen]

Both Artie and Nem show up only for Money and Heart doors

And minor finds of course

[past salmon]

Iirc nem can still show up in pom rooms but maybe I'm wrong

[cunning pollen]

Poms are also on the exclusion list

But yes, for her in particular , the room needs to be at least the fourth one, as well

[past salmon]

I thought R5 was the earliest

I don't think I've ever had a r4 nem

[cunning pollen]

Maybe because you've rarely had a room 4 minor/Heart/Gold?

[past salmon]

R4 is like always a minor

[cunning pollen]

Would make sense, mini-bosses start showing up around 4

[past salmon]

We are counting R1 like existing right

[past salmon]

No Mini Boss window is 6-8

[cunning pollen]

That's an interesting question but I think so, yes

The biome depth listed in the code for mini-bosses is 4-6 btw

So very first room might not count

[past salmon]

Ok well first biome depth is different to locations then
Cuz minibosses always show up in locations 6-8

[cunning pollen]

Might only count encounters?

[past salmon]

Is this maybe for Oceanus? It's different there

[cunning pollen]

No, I'm looking at Erebus

[past salmon]

No Miniboss can show up at 6 earliest no matter what
6-8
It's the same as midshop

Arachne also starts showing up at 6 but is available all the way until the end

[cunning pollen]

Well, I'll have to see what functions the variables take part in, but I can't argue with with actual experience (I'm notoriously bad at counting rooms)

[past salmon]

Yeah code must be a little weirdly worded or smth
But yeah, from experience, Nem/Arty (maybe fountain?) is locations 5 onwards, miniboss and midshop are 6-8, Arachne is 6-end

[cunning pollen]

Well, did a little digging and mini-bosses become possible from 4 onwards, with a 1/3 chance, then 1/2 chance, then 100% chance. But if the respective room has been calculated to have a metareward, the chance is nullified as a matter of course, which is why they never appear at 4, but could maybe appear at five if the room has double exits?

anyway, a silly rabbit-hole, but there you go

The 6-8 is probably set in stone, insofar as actual real-run calculations are concerned

[tough pasture]

i despise all the sister blade aspects.

pan aspect is a dumpster fire without hook knives + spiral knives

the special on the pan aspect is shockingly weak...

[vale gate]

What's a special

[cunning pollen]

is that like a more general question?

[past salmon]

So it's from 4 in the code but it basically can't happen in a run?

[tough pasture]

what's a good olympian to maximize momus omega cast?

[cunning pollen]

Yeah, if I read it correctly. But before that there is an algorithm that takes into account which rooms might be linked to which others

and that's probably in the guts of the RoomData files

I know just anough Lua to not get beaten up at the game-coder bars around town, but I'm not skilled enough to make all the connections

Figuring out the boon offering algorithm exhausted the limit of my abilities hah

[past salmon]

Btw question for this
Max magick is also a part of this surely?

[cunning pollen]

no, it's specifically excluded

[past salmon]

Seems weird if it isnt

[cunning pollen]

it's only money and hearts out of the major finds

[past salmon]

How strange
Why
Lol

[cunning pollen]

I imagine you might get beaten up if you compete with Nem hence the Heart option, or lose the contest, hence the money option

so it doesn't sting as much

[past salmon]

Hmm
Does nemesis have different requirements for her different types of encounters or is it just a random spin after you get her?

[cunning pollen]

she might have, yes, insofar as they are separated out

but I'll have to look at it. I'm at work but I've been writing VO for 2 days straight and I'm sorta burnt out so I'll take a gander now lol

So as far as I can tell, post-combat intro, she'll always have one encounter where she's cleared everything out and will give you a reward

then the possibilities open up

[vale gate]

Including echo

[cunning pollen]

For echo, you need to have encountered echo herself at least 6 times and you need to not have had a Nemesis random event in the previous 5 runs

[vale gate]

Can't be right, i distinctly recall nem replacing echo twice in a row

[past salmon]

Did you hit give up instead of dying

[cunning pollen]

If the requirements are and-ed and not or-ed, and I'm pretty sure they're and-ed, that shouldn't be possible, really

[vale gate]

No

Oh wait, I only remember two echos in a row being nemmed, not two runs in a row

It's possible i might've reset a couple times in between

[cunning pollen]

that makes more sense

But for Nem to even have a chance of showing up, you need to not have had her encountered in a room for the 24 previous rooms and also to not have had her encountered in a shop for the 12 previous rooms

so in theory she can show up in a shop in Erebus and then come back to bug you in the Fields

[vale gate]

What a character

[vale gate]

How would you rate the three staff hammers for both % atk and scorch

[surreal hazel]

Ever get the feeling that Zeus boons scale a bit badly deliberately because King's Ransom exists?

also, is it a bug that the two Ransom boons don't appear in your boon list, nor give Aether?

[tough pasture]

did vow of arrogance get changed?

Is it only 5 magic primed instead of 10?

[tall notch]

Did you accidentally lower it to arrogance level 1

[tough pasture]

oh, that might be what's happening. i'll have to check when I get back to the crossroads.

[obtuse tendon]

has Zeus/Demeter duo boon...gone?

[spare kite]

If you mean the blitz procs at the same time on everyone then yeah it was reworked

[past salmon]

Got changed into hailstorm which is my favourite boon in the game so W change

[vale gate]

what does thermal dynamics do exactly?

just add 80 scorch? sounds useless

[past salmon]

it... applies 80scorch
yeah
lol

[vale gate]

💀

[civic ocean]

The real duo is the infusion

Would be neat if they changed Thermal Dynamics to a very small amount of Scorch per lightning bolt, like 15

[steel sequoia]

thermal should be a chaos infusion

but with another name

wait im confusing it with Elementary Particles lmao

[brittle osprey]

Heyy wanted to ask about the skulls, the best aspect, build, and cards to use

[steel sequoia]

@past salmon

[past salmon]

Strongest skull aspect is Melinoe, but they are all pretty good.

Apollo or Hera attack are great, Aphro isn't bad either.

Arcana is just a standard magicless arcana setup.

Click bolstered array if it's offered.
Possessed array is amazing aswell just requires you to grab a gain boon

[civic ocean]

Persephone do be hard at 50

[brittle osprey]

And how do I even play it? attack and special into them to recollect?

[past salmon]

Just spam attack tbh
At like close range
Is optimal

[brittle osprey]

oooh

wouldn't Aphro be more damage then why is Apollo better :o

[past salmon]

Aoe is good

[tall notch]

AoE, you need efficient room clear at this level

[jagged quarry]

Whats a magicless arcana setup?

[brittle osprey]

ooooh makes sense

[past salmon]

Uhh @tall notch can you drop one
Im in bed on my phone lol

[brittle osprey]

ig I dont plan to do fear runs higher than what I need to get all darkness

[tall notch]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10Ivfhuer7AyLxQXPIuvLRGigui5-Z2G-gEFk3xWBir4 I don't have one on hand, but it's in this spreadsheet under "manaless"

[brittle osprey]

So is skull just better magickless or do u do it magickless cuz of the high fear

[past salmon]

It's generally just better magicless regardless
(Except for Perseph obvs)

[civic ocean]

I'm running manaless persephone at 50 atm

[past salmon]

...
Why? Lol

[civic ocean]

Just the way I like to play the aspect ig now that the cast bonus is on regular casts

[limpid coral]

Does persephone make basic cast do more damage now?

[past salmon]

Ok but you just... Aren't playing the aspect at all if you are mana less tho?

[past salmon]

No, which is why I'm confused

Like manaless Persephone literally does nothing

[civic ocean]

Hmm? Maybe I misread

I thought it gave you bonus cast damage now, guess not

Guess that would explain the difficulty

[past salmon]

Bro 😭

[civic ocean]

Regular casts charge the ospec, I know that

[brittle osprey]

Is Lucid Gain new

[silent crow]

perchance

[brittle osprey]

Oh yeah it used to be regain while ure standing in the cast they changed it

[brittle osprey]

u cant just say perchance

[civic ocean]

We just don't know what you mean by new

[brittle osprey]

Like did they add it in the recent patch

[silent crow]

no

[brittle osprey]

but now I realize its just a change to the old magick regain for apollo

[past salmon]

Not the most recent one no

[brittle osprey]

the one before it?

I didnt notice til now

Is getting transported into Asphodel usually a run ender for speedruns?

[tall notch]

It's a free room, you can walk out of the circle and wait to be booted out

[brittle osprey]

ooooh

I didn't realize u could do that

[civic ocean]

Damn im impressed I got out of Erebus once with manaless Persephone that's based

[vital ledge]

almost ran out of time with the 7 minute timer 32 fear medea hahaha. glad that's over, never using that thing again. if there is a strat with this aspect, I clearly don't understand it

[modern prawn]

guys can someone recommend me a Zeus build weapon doesn't matter(except skull)

[vale gate]

im trying 50 with than and mel axe but how tf do you deal with r2 without going twenty minutes overtime

[civic ocean]

Any decently fast hitting weapon, go storm ring flame strike static shock and build into air quality

Bonus points if you get Prominence Flare

Maybe 47 is the Fear I want to try winstreaking at

No Onion no Abandon

Both of those vows feel super lame

[tall notch]

Want me to send you some axe vods?

On Mel axe I've been a big fan of droplet just so that you can kill things somewhat fast in Erebus before you get some hammers/boons that let you deal with rebuke

[civic ocean]

Mel axe droplet sounds awesome

Do you ever get the attack speed hammer start

And just go psycho mode

[tall notch]

I've not gotten it at the very start but my 50f Mel got it in Erebus

[vale gate]

Ai sure

[vale gate]

Based

[tall notch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv5Kamz0M1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAknMhpgKPY

In these early rooms, spinning is really valuable too

[vale gate]

That's something I haven't been doing

[bright token]

it's certainly not easy without the old ER. you definitely need some minor dmg dealers to strip rebuke, zeus 50 priming will help a lot. hestia nets you the most consistent erebus clear but unfortunately it falls off sharp at chronos

[tall notch]

With patch 3 ER gone, it's time to click Hera attack again

[vale gate]

Omw to reset for c2 static shock

[bright token]

yeah hera attack is still good but for speed clear you definitely need to hit the extended hitch duration

[vale gate]

Hopefully 50 this weekend

[bright token]

but for me personally chronos was more of a problem for the first 50f clear, maybe because i got up there too quickly without enough practice vs him

[vale gate]

Im worse

[civic ocean]

Feels like hera and hestia would be really good anyways

[limpid coral]

hitch is already 8 seconds bane is not required

[bright token]

wait is it? i thought it's 3 by default

[civic ocean]

Hitch lasts forever yeah

[limpid coral]

slip is 3

its so sad

[bright token]

hmm. was it always like this? i remember hitch falling off too quickly at some point

[silent crow]

what lmfao???

[vale gate]

Bring back shoals

[civic ocean]

I never really noticed with slip because im constantly reapplying

[limpid coral]

yea i played a than run with slip on special for origination and it was extremely sad

[bright token]

also i'm surprised poseidon is left in the garbage for so long
probably ptsd from old momus clears idk. 15 flat on attack is kind of a joke

[civic ocean]

Oh are people finding him bad now? I kinda like him still on spammable attacks

[bright token]

i don't have much data but last 3 times i tried his splashes it went very poorly

[silent crow]

isnt hestia just better most of the time

[civic ocean]

He should be a little bit weaker at cores because Double Up, Hydraulic, and Fitness+Veneer supporting is pretty crazy

[bright token]

also his knockback is sometimes even bad for timer

[civic ocean]

Yeah you gotta position really well it's tough

You know what's really dumb for timer is Extending Wallop you have to be like literally almost offscreen on small rooms to the the bonus

[bright token]

what's the appeal of double up btw?

[civic ocean]

Now that minors give stuff doubling can get kinda cracked

[limpid coral]

some hp some money

[civic ocean]

Same mana IIRC

Poms too it just like really raises your output

[bright token]

also has anyone tested to what extent the flat dr from poseidon goes?

[tall notch]

I tried Hestia on Than and the axe doesn't really swing fast enough to be a good scorch generator even with all the attack speed

[bright token]

i'm thinking of trying to get it on medea with hep armor to brute force the run

[civic ocean]

I would think you'd want Smolder Ring

But I guess Arctic would be the best choice

[tall notch]

Arctic/Storm or even Heph's cast, I'm not liking Smolder that much right now

[civic ocean]

I really like it for stripping shields and origination

But arctic is kinda better

Don't always get arctic though so

[silent crow]

i alwyasa take smolder at epic rarity

[bright token]

btw the thing i wrote recently about freezer burn not being op, i stand by it. in several runs i toyed with hestia + demeter duo there was a moment i got freezer burn and lost huntress to all magick primed and it was dps loss, at least strongly felt this way

[tall notch]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/927694753116614746/1263885956092657664/image.png?ex=669bdd05&is=669a8b85&hm=47a2651439827ccd02dcf591c273918cb8daec6300535f35ad5c7331bd943ede& freezer burn is fine 🙂

[silent crow]

the banner lives https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/716773442958917753/1263886602116137061/image.png?ex=669bdd9f&is=669a8c1f&hm=0097812a4ba9591daf7ec389972d85bb55c6761aaee51b8d04c90687e3f0f680&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=192&height=434

[tall notch]

banner > Chronos

[bright token]

big number is always impressive but it's not easy to tell exactly what gain you had from it because it sucks the potential scorch dmg out with it
i had two chronos kills with scroch alone at 50F, with no freezer burn, and scorch alone absolutely wastes him with high attack speed

[calm plover]

Man, I love smolder ring

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxKz8q2l-PGvuiS7nax7FNGGTYflW8ctO5?feature=shared

(Pardon the echo-y audio)

[round thicket]

Hi

What's the best build for 32 heat in current patch?

[civic ocean]

So do you just stack up the flame strike and then cast to pop it?

[civic ocean]

The thing with freezer burn IMO is that Arctic Ring Flame Strike is just a really really solid combination of boons on almost any weapon, and so freezer burn expediting the burn damage is just a really nice extension of that if you can.

Also particularly against P1 Chronos you would prefer Freezer Burn because if you let scorch linger Chronos can cleanse it with his teleports

[civic ocean]

Hmm this is a fascinating question, it depends on a lot of stuff! Most of the time the "best" stuff is pretty chance-dependent but I would say you're likely to do pretty well by starting a fast attacking weapon and going Hestia keepsake for Flame Strike

[radiant stirrup]

does smithy sprint trigger chain reaction? im thinking no bc theres no recharge on smithy sprint, it just happens when you sprint

[vale gate]

you saved me

[tall notch]

pretty much

[tall notch]

Did you do it?!

[civic ocean]

Isn't it hard to avoid chronos without casting

[vale gate]

uh i got out of erebus so

[civic ocean]

I am pretty bad at mechanically playing that fight so maybe its just skill issue

[steel sequoia]

p1 is a little annoying, p2 is easier imo

but if you have the scythe timmings its fine

[tall notch]

You can like pop it early at first, then keep him in the cast as you keep preparing a big nuke for when freeze will go off-cooldown

[tall notch]

2nd half of phase 2 is probably the hardest part of the fight, these tempuses are nasty especially when coupled with everything else going on

[limpid coral]

Rn arctic ring with freezer burn just like doubles the damage from any scorch you apply right

[civic ocean]

Oh so it doesn't pop if he's already frozen?

[tall notch]

nope

[limpid coral]

Or does it only do the double damage when he goes from not frozen to frozen

[civic ocean]

Ooooooh okay yeah that sounds really good then

[tall notch]

https://youtu.be/t_PGYqhJbp4?si=RAmKHRAl12A1ZTL8&t=1758

timestamped the chronos fight

[limpid coral]

The hot flash holy

Ok so it only does the instantly double any scorch during the 2 seconds of actual freeze

[vale gate]

so chronos is 24k hp

[civic ocean]

26k then 20.8k I thought

[bright token]

does he still cleanse? didn't notice. anyway, the boon is strong but not op imo

[vale gate]

how do you deal with the bugs that infinitely spin and scream

just tank the damage?

[limpid coral]

bugs?

[vale gate]

whatever they are

[steel sequoia]

idk if anyone understood that

[vale gate]

the guys

[limpid coral]

goobers

[timber pawn]

What zone are they usually in lol

[limpid coral]

lil dudes

[timber pawn]

Give us something more concrete to work with here

[limpid coral]

gamers

[vale gate]

whispers and wailers i think

[limpid coral]

cast

[vale gate]

and what

[limpid coral]

wailers have a cooldown whispers have low enough range that u can hit them with blades even

[vale gate]

wailers have a cooldown?

wait which is which

[limpid coral]

the wailer is exactly what you think it is

[steel sequoia]

i just snare them with cast and go behind or aoe them from far

[uneven palm]

Than axe with flame strike and Freezer Burn goes kinda hard tbh https://youtu.be/jsqXKVvOBic?si=ZfNByaVxuZxxGJT3

[uneven palm]

Here’s my 50 Mel axe clear if you want another example. I didn’t start droplet but now I’m tempted to try it haha https://youtu.be/FIOs6rP3rj0?si=JsWwy7Phe5eZteGq

[vale gate]

ty for this

[uneven palm]

Tbh it’s mostly getting dashing heave asap. Rapid can also work but I found that ran out of steam by Tart

[vale gate]

yeah i timed out at chronos with rapid

[bright token]

what did you give up in arcana to get 6 rerolls? origination?

[tall notch]

Looking at the vod they don't seem to have origination

[bright token]

so in this vid scorch goes to 1350 and then freezer only turns it into 1676. does that even work as intended? doesn't look like a big boost

no way it's doubling scorch. i'm very confused by this "Damage from Scorch: 200%" tooltip

[tall notch]

What part of the video are you talking about?

[bright token]

wait, it's because it was a breakpoint for half his hp
so there was a moment freezer burn did small dmg vs two tempus because it seems to not carry over to main hp after breaking the shield

also there is a momen in chronos fight at 29:21 where after doing freezer burn they tossed a Oattack at chronos and kept attacking and scorch didn't seem to apply at all for some time, while white dmg was there

[karmic current]

Aint the torch special really bad?

[silent crow]

yes but the omega special is good]

[tall notch]

Only if you are playing Moros tbh

[steel sequoia]

i do enjoy mel ospecial

but moros is in another level

[vale gate]

how does cherished heirloom work with pin/

[timber pawn]

90 hp instead of 60

[vale gate]

thats nice

[uneven palm]

Dropped Boatman for Huntress and Artificer iirc

[uneven palm]

Yeah it was hitting breakpoints. Could have Freezer Burn’d a lot earlier

[uneven palm]

So Freezer burn with Arctic Ring (idk about other things) is like each icicle will clear scorch again during the Freeze duration. So what's happening there is each whirlwind tick is applying initial scorch (like 160 for the first one) and then an icicle is popping it again. You can see a lot of freezer burn ticks for 720 happening

[bright token]

i dont think so. those 720 pops seem to be going from the adds

because if you look at chronos hp bad it certanily didn't move 3 times 720 during that Oattack sequence

it goes down quite slowly in there. no idea what's happening
also does freezer burn refresh freeze cooldown on the mob? i can't tell

[uneven palm]

It doesn't refresh the cooldown, you've gotta wait the 10s unless you've got the heph x demeter duo

[uneven palm]

i think you're right. well idk what's going on in that sequence, he should been either getting scorch'd or freezer burn'd, and he wasn't quite phased yet ¯_(ツ)_/¯

kinda silly build, kinda silly results I guess

[uneven palm]

oh I'm realizing you were asking the mel axe 50. yeah I had no boatman, no origination, but did have Artificer, Huntress, and Strength

tbh Strength carried I played Chronos horribly

[bright token]

yeah if you don't have chronos perfected (i don't have either) strength is too good

[past salmon]

this seems awful
But hey
Strength enjoyers are all deranged with how they do their arcana

[uneven palm]

I was just nervous AF I hadn't made it to Chronos on 50 in like 50 runs

hey now I still take door and boon rolls i'm not completely deranged

[bright token]

origination is way too good to give up on probably everything but mel axe and medea skulls

[uneven palm]

yeah, I'd take Origination on like anything else

[bright token]

i really want to slot door rerolls back in but no idea what to sacrfifice

[vale gate]

3 timeouts to chronos later i quit

[uneven palm]

you'll get 'em next time

[vale gate]

time haha get it

[bright token]

timers are rough
i'd say if you don't have at least half a minute after cerb you might as well restart

[past salmon]

I run boatman over orig on most things now

[vale gate]

os that because you need that early boon real bad

[bright token]

i forgot what boatman is again, mana?

[vale gate]

coin

[past salmon]

no I just despise rng

[uneven palm]

cash and activates Seer

(with the other rolls)

[bright token]

you take 200 bucks over origination?

[past salmon]

and 4 rerolls yeah

[bright token]

well that entire square in the buttom left is a big counter to rng for sure. but origination scales all dmg by 50%, for me it's too hard to give up

i might start dropping the shield vs guardians again when i feel comfortable vs chronos

[vale gate]

it seems worth dropping on % weps

[limpid coral]

if a weapon benefits more from % then why would you rather drop it there

[tall notch]

But @past salmon gambling is fun

[modern prawn]

I'm looking for a staff special build any recommendations?

[tall notch]

Momus can probably work but staff specials are frankly not very good right now

[modern prawn]

even w upgrades?

[bold jay]

Sorry for the beginner question.
Probably missing something obvious, but how to handle it when Cerberus attacks the entire screen at once? Most of his attacks I'm fine with but it feels like there's ones where it's just literally the whole screen and there's nowhere to run.
Sometimes I've been able to avoid it by hiding in the tiny gaps between circles, but I'm not sure if those gaps are always there. What are you "supposed" to do?

[limpid coral]

do you mean the grid of red circles?

[bold jay]

yeah. most of the time, those circles only occupy part of the screen and its easy to run to another part. but occasionally it feels like the entire screen.

[limpid coral]

they appear in a sequence so find a place where one circle will activate a little later than one adjacent

[civic ocean]

The battlefield is bigger than the screen

[bold jay]

yeah, I know. but when everything I can see is red, I don't really know which way I can go for safety. plus there usually isn't enough time to get there.

[civic ocean]

It takes a bit of getting used to, but the safest place in the fight is like 5 steps from Cerberus' exact back and then like at the outer edge of the ring

[magic moss]

Momus is just the best option right now, staff specials are really bad but the omega attack is fine

[civic ocean]

I'm not really sure it's feasible to build around staff special atm yeah

Maybe for around 32 if you found good hammers?

[magic moss]

building around attack is just objectively better rn with the current state of attack

[civic ocean]

I think they should restore the base speed

[magic moss]

more damage, aoe, range, channel times are roughly the same, and most importantly isnt as janky to use since using ospecials feel complete ass at times

[vale gate]

can you not get static shock before an attack boon?

[civic ocean]

You can!

[vale gate]

oh i guess ive just been unlucky

[civic ocean]

You have to reroll zeus if you have no cores, and if you have a core you have a chance to get offered it

You have IIRC a greater chance to grt offered non core boons if you have an attack or special boon

[vale gate]

yeah

[bright token]

does aim assist work with controler? like on medea skulls for instance

i like the idea of the weapon but it seems borderline uplayable at high fear

[tall notch]

the aim assist is pretty cool but skull special isn't affected by it at all as far as I know, it's treated as movement not aiming a weapon

[bright token]

you need to constantly keep enemies stunned and with how small the hitbox of meli is, even a small error in cursor targeting ends up a miss and eating dmg

the random room with a million armored ball demons and hippos is a run ender for this weapon

[tall notch]

I think the best way for Medea to cope in high fear is to take every single defensive thing and deal with the fact that you'll facetank sometimes

[bright token]

maybe it needs like a bit of iframes on the special at a cost of dmg, idk

when you start chaining attack-specials with the dash it becomes a little easier
but it's the most enemy rng dependant weapon, pretty frustrating to play

[barren juniper]

I was looking through old posts and I just realized I never replied to you, sorry. Here's the formula for the effective mana pool with Born Gain and its derivation.

Let M denote your mana pool after other fixed priming effects, P denote the amount of mana primed by Born Gain, and assume M > P.
Let R = M mod P, (i.e. the remainder of M/P), your remaining mana after Born Gain has primed as much mana as possible.
Your total mana is thus, T = M+(M-P)+(M-2P)+(M-3P)+...+R = (M+P-R)(M+R)/(2P). This result is basically just the partial sum formula for natural numbers with extra steps.

Anyways, T = (M+P-R)(M+R)/(2P) is clearly a quadratic function with respect to M, not exponential.

[bright token]

oh man i really wanted to clear 50f with skulls too but it's not looking so good now
having to pick up your ammo and then aim the existing ammo or special so precicely is a little too much

let me try medea with demeter, maybe freeze is mandatory vs armored guys

[tired fulcrum]

Time to get rolled by armored bouldies

[past salmon]

IFrames in special would be completely busted why do people keep asking for this
Medea is fine, it's strong at 32F and below, and is just on the harder side for higher fears.

[quaint orchid]

which boons good for thanatos axe

[magic moss]

hera attack and dem cast

[bright token]

the game literally has enemies that damage you on touch, and the entire weapon design revolves around touching enemies, it's an obvious design disparity that makes the weapon inherently harder to play than anything else

i don't think it would be busted to give special 0.2 sec iframing. again, balance of everything that doesnt inherently break the game is just a number. of course the dmg needs to take a hit for this buff

[barren juniper]

I really don't think it would be, especially if the invincibility were contingent on having X shells loaded. The shell load animation can't be masked unlike like Hestia Rail's reload and leaves Melinoe stationary unlike Beowulf Shield. Shield's charge attack was a far better move in general IMO.

[limpid coral]

skulking or flick on pan with hera attack and zeus special

its gotta be flick right

[timber pawn]

There is like 1 enemy in the game that damages on touch. If we're proposing solutions for that in the context of medea, it makes a lot more sense to change the enemy hitbox than it does to add iframes to an attack

[tall notch]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/927694753116614746/1263991551390912613/20240719235055_1.jpg?ex=669c3f5d&is=669aeddd&hm=e3f1a812955014dbe0ba57f67ce48cd3d00c2887a36a0a408614f4339a532a9e& fighting Chronos with Medea is so BS. I had all DDs and almost full HP before the fight started
@past salmon how do you do this

[limpid coral]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/885007146981396480/1263991899757477970/image.png?ex=669c3fb0&is=669aee30&hm=c92014bd194c04f2f948f136578c4c8eaf7c812851391fd854c3c5428fbdf3b5& what keepsake here

got both shield and mint so antler is on the table lol

[tall notch]

do it, you have all the defensive stuff out there

[limpid coral]

we ball

[civic ocean]

If medea special had iframes how fast do you think you could do 55

That feels like a change that would like shatter the upper bound of difficulty

[tall notch]

if medea had iframes probably even i could do 50f on it

[civic ocean]

It would be so crazy

[limpid coral]

maybe the strat for blades is arctic ring start and rng into a good attack

[magic moss]

Sheet has been updated for today

we are now at 98 unique clears with 21 runners

[vale gate]

bruh

[magic moss]

almost at 100

[uneven palm]

By unique you mean the combination of runner and aspect?

[limpid coral]

do u count a mel axe run i did a few days ago that was still on patch 3 cause i forgor to update 💀

[tall notch]

I still have a staff aspect left and could mayyyyyybe do Charon if I luck out enough

[past salmon]

In like a day lmao
Ive already gotten tart on it

[magic moss]

a runner clearing 50F on an aspect for the first time yeah

[magic moss]

did you post the victory screen?

[limpid coral]

i have it

[magic moss]

you said mel axe?

[limpid coral]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/885007146981396480/1262937238602252308/image.png?ex=669bb535&is=669a63b5&hm=2b73533e1d00a5bfbbe532cf46e0a7661dcf7b560d02a58b860897511aab1d4a&

just rng the op stuff

[magic moss]

99 clears, 1 more to go

[timber pawn]

alright I guess Ill try 50

[limpid coral]

gogogo

[timber pawn]

idk what arcana setup I want or anything lmao

[magic moss]

i have it so the spreadsheet has clears differentiated by patch since the "meta" is a bit different with boons and stuff so its fine

[limpid coral]

👍

[past salmon]

Refer to Mini's spreadsheet for Arcana
They are all the usual setups

Be a boatman believer like me tho and chuck orig in the trash trust

[timber pawn]

alright do I take possessed or colossus

[magic moss]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1249502882819215453/1263999224974934127/image.png?ex=669c4683&is=669af503&hm=487c7c1a12daffd7ce0fc67fb5630ee213923233262f00b47932a7e55c76c5cd& i added an extra note at the top of the arcana page just for you goat

[tall notch]

You're also breaking divinity in builds that don't run sorceress which I'm not a big fan of

[magic moss]

colossus if medea or persephone, possessed if mel

AND POSH GOT RUN #100

[timber pawn]

This is really unpleasant lol

[silent crow]

yes

its why medea is actually unplayable for me on keyboard i drop DD's in fields on low fear

[magic moss]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10Ivfhuer7AyLxQXPIuvLRGigui5-Z2G-gEFk3xWBir4/edit?usp=sharing

[steel sequoia]

im on 430+ nights if i remembered

[vale gate]

damn

time to watch better call saul

[past salmon]

Screw divinity

[timber pawn]

I am losing my absolute mind atm my muscle memory keeps picking up items before I can artifice them

[past salmon]

What weapon are you running

[timber pawn]

mel skulls

[past salmon]

Ahh
Yeah fair
Imo boatman is honestly pretty good take for them
Idk maybe I'm just deranged

[tall notch]

You are

[past salmon]

Idk man I think I'm less deranged then you people who just spam runs for hours going
"RNG PLEASE SAVE ME"

[uneven palm]

That’s it I’m trying boatman next run I also hate being poor

[vale gate]

50 fear is miles harder than 50 heat

[past salmon]

Idk about miles but I do think it's a little harder

[vale gate]

but its crazy how its so front loaded

like 90% of the difficulty is just erebus

[tall notch]

Idk I'm feeling like I had to sweat more at 40h than I do with some of my 50 fears 😭

[past salmon]

Idk I make it out of Erebus most runs

[timber pawn]

did you guys know that narc's boon doesn't get onioned?

[past salmon]

Yeh
It's a bag

[tall notch]

But maybe that's just because Mel's CC-oriented playstyle really appeals to me

[magic moss]

duo rooms also dont get onioned

[uneven palm]

I’m assuming you’re taking Artificer + Huntress for Orig, while keeping Boatman?

[past salmon]

Yeh

[tired fulcrum]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1226642940764487690/1264017236008374363/2024-07-19_16-48-43_-_Trim.mp4?ex=669c5749&is=669b05c9&hm=1d93b4f7a4d398cbcb4befc8096d0c3c86780985864f05c892f1ef380eb95bdb&

[silent crow]

oh the timer ticks during the cutscnee thats good to know

[tall notch]

What made you click that Apollo attack 😭

[tired fulcrum]

i thought it would be good cause wicked

[tall notch]

Ooohhh, I see. Right now I'm a big fan of storm ring+hitch attack on attack spam staff

[silent crow]

it seems like it was pretty good

[civic ocean]

Drives me up the wall

[bright token]

https://youtu.be/iAcoxXx5fg0

[civic ocean]

gonna stream testing out some Moros theory

[timber pawn]

got to chronos on mel skulls

just kinda choked and ate a bunch of stuff I shouldnt have

[tall notch]

you are so close!! I believe in you, become one of us

[timber pawn]

I alt-f4ed I'm gonna savestate chronos for a bit

oh it didnt work lmao

oh well

[vale gate]

stream where?

[timber pawn]

did you guys know the gods talk smack if they kill you in a trial of the gods

[civic ocean]

my stream

[timber pawn]

first time I get bolstered in erebus I get the longest rooms known to mankind

[uneven palm]

I have seen the light take boatman for 50F #h2-victory-boasting message

[timber pawn]

50f is far more tilting than speeds ever is

[past salmon]

Just win imo

[timber pawn]

great point

for mel skulls if I get room 3 hammer/god, do I take the god?

[past salmon]

Idk I usually take god
Hammer is maybe better since just gamble for bolstered and reset if you don't get it ig
But also that's just miserable

[timber pawn]

tbh 50 has been pretty miserable in general so

I do not think I am built for this

[quaint orchid]

uh my arcana is currently at 32/29

i didnt change anything since i last played

and it was fine

i have arcana cards activated over the limit

[timber pawn]

there was a patch that changed the arcana

[quaint orchid]

they all seem to work

might as well just keep it

[timber pawn]

sure if you don't want to play the game as intended, but you're correct, the game doesn't stop you from starting a run with extra arcana. If you ever turn any off and go under the limit though thats it

[barren juniper]

Yes, I think so. King's Ransom is cute and all, but I wish they'd remove it and just make Zeus' baseline effects and mechanics better. Blitz in particular has way too long of a delay/cooldown IMO. I'd be nice if Air Quality scaled with essence levels as well.

Like here's a +20 levels Blitz, Electric Overload, Static Shock, and Double Strike run I just had. In principle, this should trigger Blitz on every Ω Special hit, but the cooldown ruins it in practice.
Static Shock appears to be missing a ton of procs as well, so I imagine it has the same bug with Torch Ω Special as Wave Flourish.
I can't even tell if Double Strike is working. The effect was quite noticeable in Hades 1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIBgSpSeC8c

It really shouldn't take all this to make Blitz feel good. A typical Spiteful Strength run feels stronger and doesn't require seven auxiliary boons beyond the duo requirements.

[timber pawn]

Blitz is pretty strong in a couple of contexts. It works very well on medea aspect skulls and moros aspect torches special

I guess I'm also not sure what your definition of good is, you cleared the run in 19 mins which a lot of folks would consider a solid time.

If you'd run the exact same build on Moros torches it would've probably been more effective.

Blitz works well in conjuction with other effects and sources of damage

[barren juniper]

It's a poor damage boost on both and generally inferior to Hitch on Moros special IMO. The bulk of your DPS on those aspects comes from attack damage.

[timber pawn]

As a primary source of damage it's not amazing but as a secondary status that gets applied while the bulk of your damage comes from elsewhere, it does great

[past salmon]

put hitch on your attack for Moros and then you get a good boost from blitz on special aswell

[barren juniper]

Blitz doesn't augment secondary damage sources well since you can only trigger it once and it has a massive cooldown. If it's not a good primary damage source and it's weaker than other ailments for privileged status what's its purpose? As I've been saying since day 1, Blitz is a categorically weaker version of Doom from Hades 1 IMO.

[barren juniper]

That's weaker than just running Spiteful Strength or even just Aphro attack.

[limpid coral]

Idk blitz was pretty good on my pan and momus staff 50s

[timber pawn]

I mean you clearly have your feelings on blitz. I don't think you're going to have a ton of folks in here agreeing with you

[limpid coral]

It says click m2 to deal like 300 400 something damage every 2 or 3 seconds or something

Pretty good

If ur better u can prolly use it like every 1-2 seconds

[barren juniper]

That's 200 DPS at best. That's weaker than a secondary boon or pom for a lot of weapons.

[limpid coral]

Well thats with an aspect that doesnt otherwise click one of its buttons

So u put blitz on the button u dont click and its very nice

Otherwise sure its a weird % boon

[barren juniper]

That's irrelevant though. You're adding 200 DPS to something that's dealing thousands of DPS. It's a pittance. If you need a Zeus boon for a duo or something sure I can see the logic. But standalone, it's a bad effect IMO.

[limpid coral]

I am not dealing thousands of dps spamming blades attack lol

[barren juniper]

Were you not talking about Pan?

[limpid coral]

I was, but it goes for all 3 blades cause they suck at making mana work

Like the pan 50 i posted got blitz right before sirens and it still did a lot of work

[uneven palm]

Blitz good imo

[timber pawn]

Blitz is specifically used (or at least wanted) in both medea and moros speedruns atm as well so like 🤷 I dunno.

This game isn't purely about dps racing, breakpoints for specific enemies hp bars are relevant too and blitz works really well for that kind of stuff

[tall notch]

I won't fall for the boatman propaganda

[barren juniper]

Yeah, I guess in a 50-55 context that can be rough. I don't play Vow of Arrogance, so mana isn't an issue. Poseidon Special on Pan does thousands per use by mid-late game, so the Blitz isn't worth changing the combat loop.

[limpid coral]

well nothing is changing the loop away from poseidon special on manaful pan that is not unique to blitz

[barren juniper]

Who asked about speedruns though? I brought blitz up in the context of DPS, so your argument feels a bit disingenuous.

[limpid coral]

speedruns depend on killing stuff fast? iunno

[uneven palm]

You too could spend 6 rolls on C4 door to get your keepsake god to show up

[timber pawn]

Speedruns are a different measure of effectiveness sure but I would argue speedruns are optimizing for killing things as fast as possible and therefore also dps.

If you're purely arguing for blitz to do more dps against essentially a target dummy, not in the greater context of the game, sure I guess

Speedruns contextualize dps

[barren juniper]

The distinction is that speedruns require killing several enemies that typically have low HP, low enough to be one-shot by a high rarity Blitz through most of the game.

My issue pertains to the use of Blitz against enemies with high HP. Reducing the cooldown on Blitz (or otherwise improving its mechanics) wouldn't hinder its speedrunning efficacy, but it'd go a long way towards making it feel more useful against bosses. Again, the direct comparison is Doom from Hades 1. It was excellent against bosses with the Athena Duo due to the lower cooldown than Blitz and the variety of scaling options. I'd like to see Blitz moved closer to that baseline since "weaker version of X" isn't fun.

[uneven palm]

idk I like blitz on offhand moves but I think it works on mains too. It scales hard in the endgame

[limpid coral]

sprint is chain dash but weaker

Idk I have no point of comparison having not played hades so i just see that it does pretty good numbers on the aspects that like it

[barren juniper]

And how many folks have you seen complain about sprint vs dashes? The dash change used to be every 3rd complaint in the suggestion thread and still comes up from time to time, even with the arcana buff.

[limpid coral]

If ppl only ever made game 1.5 instead of game 2 then those complaints would be replaced by other things

[timber pawn]

Blitz also specifically works well on lower base damage weapons (again going to use medea as an example)

Special base damage is 25, you'd have to get a lot more than spiteful strength to make that special do more than even a common blitz

Even if blitz only procs every other attack, at common, it's still equal to 200% damage modifier on the medea special

[barren juniper]

WTF does that even mean lol? Sprint at least opens new mechanics up. Blitz is literally just a weaker Doom Duo.

[timber pawn]

I think it's a little wild to argue a single boon/status should be equal in effectiveness to a duo

[barren juniper]

That's not accurate. You need to consider the actual combat loop and the net damage/DPS dealt. The 25 damage special isn't triggering Blitz by itself.

[tall notch]

I've not paid attention to the discussion too closely but like blitz is good after its pom scaling got a buff. It sees play in speedruns. It sees play in high-fear

[barren juniper]

I'm comparing Blitz mechanically to Doom mechanically in a mid-end game scenario. If you missed my post above with the +20 poms legendary Blitz, that's the impetus for the discussion.

[timber pawn]

Okay on medea you're loading a skull, which is base 50 damage, and using a special to hit an enemy, which is 25 damage. So base combo is 75 damage.

Blitz requires 120 damage to proc. So if you load 2 skulls (50+50) and use the special to hit an enemy, blitz procs immediately.

If you account for any damage buff on attack including origination OR Huntress you get closer to 1 skull+dash proccing blitz.

So with 2 boons you are basically proccing blitz on every medea dash combo

[barren juniper]

This is incorrect. The initial hit doesn't count for Blitz's trigger requirement.

[limpid coral]

doesnt medea like give itself +60% base

[timber pawn]

Ya my numbers were accounting for that

[timber pawn]

The order of operations is such that the special hits first then the two skulls. I am correct.

[vale gate]

blitz is better doom

[barren juniper]

The cooldown doesn't let you trigger on every special either unless you delay your pattern.

[barren juniper]

100 damage from two skulls isn't 120. What am I missing?

[timber pawn]

The 25 base damage from the dash this was wrong, mb

[limpid coral]

huntress, furies, medea aspect bonus?

[timber pawn]

Actually ya, sorry, this realistically

[limpid coral]

isn't that +140% immediately lol

[tall notch]

I watched that video and you've melted Chronos?? Genuinely what's your issue with blitz

[uneven palm]

Yeah like it seems like “this is bad” is a strange takeaway watching that

[timber pawn]

I believe they want it to be potentially that strong without as much investment

They felt that they had to go overboard to get there

[barren juniper]

The issue is that setup took EIGHT auxiliary boons to deal less damage than other builds with easier requirements. I'd prefer if Blitz were a more competent skill for single target damage by itself and remove King's Ransom in exchange.

[timber pawn]

Fwiw I don't disagree that getting blitz to scale is a little difficult because it's a weird flat damage thing and not % based like other stuff

But the trade off is that it is super strong on the specific weapons it is strong on, imo

I feel like it has its niche

[uneven palm]

I mean it’s another damage source, so you get to double-dip on global damage boosts

[tall notch]

You're using it on one of the weakest single target aspects though, so sincerely what are you expecting? To click one special with a level 2 rare blitz and oneshot everything?

[barren juniper]

And normally flat damage is great because of sources of global %damage. See Poseidon's attack and special, Hades 1 Doom, and Hades 1 Zeus boons. Sure, Blitz has a niche. I'd just like it to be better generically like most of the other attack/special boons.

[tall notch]

Blitz sees more play than Poseidon attack/special right now

[timber pawn]

I just feel like it's got a place similar to poseidon, like you wouldn't put poseidon attack on axe

But it's good on pan

But I mean ultimately ya fair enough, I don't think we're going to agree on this one. But the good news is you can provide the feedback to sgg directly if you haven't yet

[barren juniper]

The expectation is that this setup would outperform the omega special spam build with say, Aphrodite Special and Apollo Legendary. Or even just a typical Spiteful Strength attack Moros setup.

Just from the text on the boons, I would expect every Omega special hit to curse with Blitz, trigger Static Shock for 140, trigger Blitz for 650, then trigger Electric Overload for 220. It doesn't do that because of hidden internal cooldowns and that's flat out unfun.

I posted another Blitz test with Axe's whirlwind shortly after release with enough damage to trigger Blitz on every attack, but it hit maybe every 4th attack. I'd expect it to hit every 2nd attack at worst. Again, it's just unfun.

[barren juniper]

Yeah, I've been griping about Blitz from day 1. They buffed the pom scaling at least after I made a post with like a level 10+ Blitz, but nothing on the cooldown yet.

Nothing on the bugs with Torch omega special effect procs either :\ Still doesn't work correctly with Poseidon or Static Shock for example.

[tall notch]

Since you mentioned spiteful Moros, base torch omega special is so low dps you'll probably do more if you're buffing your attack with spiteful and have blitz on special

[barren juniper]

That goes back to an argument I made before though. The Blitz procs add maybe 200 DPS to a build that's doing thousands of DPS. It's a drop in the bucket and feels worse than Hitch, especially considering Hera's other support boons.

[timber pawn]

Fwiw there is a mod called pony menu that allows you to give yourself boons in the training zone. We just need a mod to give skelly 10k hp and then we could test this stuff

[tall notch]

200dps on a build that does 2k dps is still a 10% boost? Not that I think even spiteful Moros was doing 2k dps

[timber pawn]

Imo there is a lot of feelycraft happening here, a bit on both sides. The best option would be to actually test

[barren juniper]

There was Codex menu and another mod for proper DPS tracking back in Hades 1. I'm surprised that one hasn't come back yet, but I haven't looked too hard.

[timber pawn]

There is one afaik

Might be worth installing and doing some of your own testing, just to confirm mental math one way or the other

[past salmon]

I dont think spiteful Moros does 2k dps unless you have a lot of other investment on top

[barren juniper]

I'll take a look, though I'm not keen on modding while in EA.

Anyways, my DPS estimates come from Chronos kill times. The setup I posted above wasn't even able to phase Chronos before his OHKO (it was close at least), but I've managed to clearly phase Chronos multiple times on builds that required far less luck.

[past salmon]

regardless if your main argument for something not being strong enough is "it didn't instaphase Chronos" idk man
I think thats a lil goofy

Its not like Zeus Rail in H1 instaphased Hades
I don't see anyone mad enough to call Zeus rail bad tho

[barren juniper]

Any combo of attack speed from Hermes, Flat damage from Hammer/Hestia/Aphrodite, Faster channel speed, and Crit in cast from Artemis go a long way. Blitz notably lacks scaling all of those.

[civic ocean]

made some solid progress on normal special moros

[cunning pollen]

Shouldn't the utility of flat damage boons be judged by comparison to others? In that vein, there are people on here that pay a lot more attention to dps than I do. What would you say is a good comparative dps baseline for regular play? (regular = start of run, fear not boosted through the roof, aspects not maxed maybe even)

I'm thinking of Hestia's current 80 dps, non-committal damage for instance

[barren juniper]

Don't put words in my mouth. You're coming off as pretty arrogant. The arguments are 1. Blitz isn't as fun as it could be, and 2. an extremely high-roll setup with Blitz is weaker than comparable setups in both this game and Hades 1.

And no, Eris Rail Zeus with the level of investment I had in my video above most certainly did insta-phase Hades. What are you on?

[cunning pollen]

I like Blitz personally, but it needs help from complementary boons. Hestia's probably best for that

[past salmon]

1. Fun is subjective
2. Idk having 5 second Chronos phases is kinda strong and better than some other weapon highroll setups
   You would have similar kill times running a high investment scorch build

I think you are just comparing it to the absolute top in your mind

[cunning pollen]

I like the design decision to have it proc from actual active gameplay unlike Doom

[past salmon]

like I could just say everything kinda sucks cuz you can just click sunny disposition charon and quite literally instaphase Chronos

[cunning pollen]

And I'd never judge its utility by whether it can knock down Chronos in 2 vs 5 seconds or something like that

[civic ocean]

Wait why isn't blitz fun

[cunning pollen]

BTW found something interesting/funny about backstab yesterday: hitting enemies while facing in the same direction as them counts as backstab, regardless of whether you're behind them or not

I was practicing Mininet's "hit enemies with staff when they're behind you" tech

[round moss]

does that work every time? thats pretty interesting

[cunning pollen]

And had backburner on. So I backstabbed them with my back to them lol

[barren juniper]

1. But Doom having more scaling options, a shorter cooldown and being easier to proc isn't subjective. Sure Blitz has better base damage, but it certainly isn't better mid-end game. Moreover, I said "Blitz isn't as fun as it could be" which is also an objective fact. If they cut the cooldown on Blitz and add scaling options instead of King's Ransom then there'd be a lot more viable builds. I don't think you can make the argument that more options = less fun.

[round moss]

epic

[round moss]

Why compare doom to blitz though

doom is similiar to hephaesteus boon, not blitz.

[past salmon]

did doom even have more scaling options?
It had like, 2 boons that helped scale it and one was completely worthless 99% of the time

[civic ocean]

Why can't you make that argument? I don't really think more options is necessarily more fun or interesting

[barren juniper]

Because they're basically the same thing. Hephaestus's thing is instant damage which is categorically different than delayed damage.

[magic moss]

isnt blitz far better mid/late game than early

[civic ocean]

I think Blitz is pretty good early too tbh

[barren juniper]

Is it less fun or interesting though? Because that's what I said.

[civic ocean]

Yeah it can be

If everything scales to endgame then there's no point in prioritizing things that are strong early and fall off. That's less fun

[round moss]

No, blitz is a curse that lasts a few seconds, and enemy must take X damage during that duration, for Y bonus damage. Doom is, hit them once, after X seconds, take big chunk of damage. Hephaesteus is Hit them once, they take big chunk of damage, can't proc again for X seconds... it's basically backwards doom.

[past salmon]

yeah I agree
I liked it a lot on staff in Erebus to deal with the tanky stuff

[round moss]

Hephaestus is definitely this games version of doom

blitz has no cooldown either, the more you deal, the more you can keep proccing it... its not similiar to doom

[barren juniper]

Absolutely false.

[past salmon]

well it does have a cooldown actually

[round moss]

whats the cooldown

[civic ocean]

Yeah like I don't have a ton of experience with Blitz, but in the like 70 or so runs from 32-50 that I've done with it, it deals a really high percentage of the early enemies' HP while giving you time to clear rebuke, so it's a decent early crutch, and then it puts Zeus in your god pool so you can get access to some really crazy non-core boons. On top of that, Blitz gets a little better as you get a little better at applying it, and clearing it. The fun part about Blitz is that it scales non-linearly, while being useful and powerful in the moment and very easy to acquire

[tired fulcrum]

Blitz takes some time to proc after being triggered and you cant reapply until after it actually does the damage

So you can only bltiz like once every 1-2 seconds

[round moss]

Its procced by the enemy taking a certain damage threshold.

And then reapplied the next time you hit them with that ability, no?

[magic moss]

imma be real i like how blitz is currently implemented, solid dps option, not op, gives access to zeus stuff

[barren juniper]

Unstated, can't be reduced, and feels longer than 1 second which are the major gripes I have. If it worked as written I'd agree with you.

[round moss]

So... what's the cooldown?

[tired fulcrum]

And after that it doesnt deal the damage instantly theres a delay

[past salmon]

but yeah I do love Blitz myself
I think its very cool and quite strong

[civic ocean]

its like half a second or smth right

[round moss]

w/e ill test it later and find out exactly

easy to test with scorch

still, 1-2s wouldn't make it like doom

where you just need to touch the enemy once every once in awhile

that's exactly how hephaestus works though

touch enemy once... big splash of damage... cooldown until you can do it again

[barren juniper]

Here's some vids if they help for the cooldown timing. You seem to have missed much of the context for my griping, but this cooldown is my biggest issue with Blitz. Going back to the Doom idea, that cooldown/delay on Blitz is what makes them so similar. You generally have to stand by and continue attacking to deal Blitz damage while you can just move on with Doom. More over, there's literally a Zeus boon to make Blitz function exactly like Doom.
https://youtu.be/uFybZEkFQBM?si=KPBz8zzcvXIgKAt5
https://youtu.be/SIBgSpSeC8c?si=kzwtChLMxQ-DBYo4

[civic ocean]

Why is it being compared to doom like I don't give a damn about Tartarus in Hades 1 nearly anywhere as much as I care about Erebus in Hades 2, and that changes the value of big number already

[barren juniper]

And again, these are categorically different. Heph damage is instant which matters for things like Blue Hearts, Shields, boss phases, etc.

[cunning pollen]

It's .2s actually, the cool down

So not nearly as bad

[barren juniper]

It matters because this game a sequel and it's an obvious direct comparison to make. Mechanics should be improved in a sequel, but Blitz feels like a step back IMO. In more generality, similar mechanics in any pair of games get compared and newer games should expand and improve on older ones. Take the old, janky, desync prone Cyclone in Path of Exile and compare to Diablo 2's Whirlwind. PoE's Devs (eventually) changed Cyclone to behave as one would expect because it makes no sense for a move in their "spiritual successor" to be a clunkier version of its counterpart.

[cunning pollen]

As I said I like Blitz being triggered from active gameplay

I didn't like Doom's feel nearly as much as its damage utility would suggest in H1

[civic ocean]

Blitz only feels like a step back to you because you're comparing it to something mechanically different from the first game that the sequel is noticeably not trying to be like.

Are you also mad that Melinoe can only dash once? Is that a step back?

[magic moss]

i actually really like the design of blitz because every weapon's full attack/special rotation typically does enough damage to proc blitz anyway, so the cooldown doesnt really matter because of the gameplay loop of go in, deal full damage combo and blitz, and get out of danger and repeat

the only time i could see the blitz cd being a significant problem is speedrunning and low fear runs, where things just die quickly regardless of blitz or not

[past salmon]

Also I think saying Blitz is a step back from doom is kind of wild
Doom was very plain

[magic moss]

blitz is just extra damage to the kit and i like the simplicity of it

honestly i hated doom as a mechanic, felt so boring

[past salmon]

yeah this
Doom was like, the lamest H1 thing lol

[magic moss]

like blitz actively encourages engagement and combat doom is the opposite

[civic ocean]

Doom felt like it had more of a place in Hades 1 because having something that encouraged you to keep distance was at least interesting

Because the rest of the game was making out with every enemy and twitch dashing their hitboxes

[barren juniper]

How did you conclude that? It seem to proc even 2x per second in any of my tests, let alone 5x per second. I've tested with multiple weapons.

[magic moss]

dio cast did this so much better than the entirety of the doom mechanic

[civic ocean]

Yeah they were good together too

[vale gate]

yeah doom was dogwater there was always a better option

[magic moss]

im actually so glad doom isnt in h2 it was so boring and lame

like why tf does the god of war have the mechanic that is centered around hit and run

[civic ocean]

I guess? I liked merciful end and Doom was like fine, didn't love it didn't hate it, like as a status I'd take it over chill yknow

[cunning pollen]

The code. But the lighting falling is its own thing, and maybe could be tuned

[civic ocean]

I think it's because Blitz can't be proc'd by the hit that applies it

[barren juniper]

Yeah, I believe the delay before the lightning actually falls counts as Blitz still being on the enemy. And multiple stacks of Blitz can't be applied. This functionally increases the cooldown by the lightning delay.

[cunning pollen]

Which is why it benefits from synergy, another thing I like

Blitz + Scorch is a Duo for a reason

[civic ocean]

Thermal should be like 40/80 more scorch probably

[magic moss]

idk imo blitz >>>>>>>>> doom in terms of implementation and design

[cunning pollen]

It would also be a lot faster Blitz

[civic ocean]

I also think that comparing them is weird like there's so much context that seperates them

Like why isn't Blitz instead compared to Jolted

SInce it's on Zeus

[cunning pollen]

And Hestia's secondary flame on ospecial with Staff, with Blitz on special, procs it instantly

[vale gate]

jolted is in a category of its own

[civic ocean]

It's all kinda arbitrary to me

[barren juniper]

It's mechanically weaker to deal X damage to proc Blitz every Y seconds than to proc Doom every Z seconds. Doom also had options to decrease the cooldown, increase the cooldown for more damage, pop instantly with a duo or repeatedly proc with a different duo. Blitz has none of those options. If Blitz could trigger multiple times from a big enough hit, or had a shorter cooldown, or did something else creative I'd have a different opinion. Blitz is the plain one IMO.

[civic ocean]

Can't blitz literally proc more than once with Zeus' support boon

[barren juniper]

Only in principle. Didn't seem to happen in my video above with a 59% double proc chance.

[past salmon]

"let me ignore all the things blitz has"

Double strike can double proc it, Romantic Spark is literally just another flavour of Merciful end, Zeus Hera duo is big scaling, not blitz exclusive or anything but other than the doom stacking boon, which was ass, H1 didn't have an equivalent to that

[barren juniper]

And double strike isn't the same as dealing 240+ damage to proc two Bliz hits.

[past salmon]

Blitz scorch duo is also a thing, admittedly a little weak but it still exists

[cunning pollen]

It promotes more involved gameplay and I personally like that. Hands-off damage is something I rarely like, and Doom was that par excellance

[civic ocean]

But also doom was clearly designed to be able to scale into lategame and blitz isn't

at least not as easily

[cunning pollen]

Blitz is meant to scale via Duos I feel

And Romantic Spark is no joke

[civic ocean]

Why not just compare blitz to the other stuff that's in hades 2

[vale gate]

doom has exactly 1 boon that makes it useable

[barren juniper]

"Let me keep being arrogant, putting words in his mouth, and ignoring the context of the conversation"

Double strike has been addressed multiple times. Romantic Spark doesn't circumvent the cooldown/delay which I've addressed multiple times. I specifically requested that King's Ransom be removed to add other scaling options. But sure I igored all the Blitz stuff...

[cunning pollen]

It's why I joined the convo here hah

[past salmon]

ok so lets set it out ig

Doom: Ares self boon scaling: Impending Doom and Dire Misfortune, Dire misfortune sucks
Duos: Merciful End, Curse of Longing

Blitz: Zeus self boon scaling: Double Strike, Electric Overload, Toasting fork. Toasting fork and electric overload arent great, but overload definitely has its usecases.
Duos: Romantic Spark, Thermal Dynamics, Killer current, Kings Ransom(kinda)

yeh idk man it looks like Blitz actually has more stuff to it

[civic ocean]

isn't killer current any bolt and not blitz

[past salmon]

yeah but it still effects Blitz

[civic ocean]

Oh sick

[past salmon]

I don't think thats a reach but sure we can remove it if you want

[barren juniper]

I have earlier in the convo. The gist is that I don't think Blitz scales well as a primary damage source. It's great for clear against weaker enemies, but I'm not concerned with that and every damage increase does that to some extent.

[civic ocean]

Yeah Blitz doesn't scale well as a primary damage source

What's wrong with that?

[cunning pollen]

We can agree with that, yes, but weaker enemies are the one that bugger you quite often

[past salmon]

idk why you are so hung up on the cooldown
Fun fact you also couldnt infinitely proc doom over and over apart from merciful end, which was kinda broken

also romantic spark is only a little bit behind merciful end anyway

[barren juniper]

It limits build variety which I find unfun, and there are easy options that fix that. Flipping the argument, why do attack/special boons shouldn't be strong (on-average) as primary damage sources?

[past salmon]

tbh it really does scale well at low fear which is what we are centered on anyway
Like you can absolutely have a really strong primary blitz damage run

[civic ocean]

Some attack/special boons should be strong early and not scale up very well. This adds texture to the decision making process early in the run, which is something that got added to Hades 2 that makes it more interesting IMO

If everything works well at all stages of the game my goldfish could decide my boons for me, and to me that isn't fun

[cunning pollen]

H2 in general promotes damage by combining at least two damage sources

[barren juniper]

I've literally gave other options like making Blitz trigger x times if you deal 120x damage in one hit or letting blitz stack Y times. But no, cooldown's the only thing I'm hung up on...

The Romantic Spark, Merciful End comparison is part of the "Blitz is weaker Doom" argument, so IDK what you're trying to get after with that.

[cunning pollen]

So just attack or special don't cut it anymore

[past salmon]

okay but part of your argument is that you don't think Blitz has enough options "compared to doom" when it literally has more options

[civic ocean]

I'm still trying to put together in my head why the design of the game is supposed to change to fit your idea of how much damage blitz should do instead of your implementation of blitz as a tool changing to match the design of the game

[round moss]

these r good points, blitz's lack of customization is something they hopefully work on

[past salmon]

I will say its a bit of a shame we lost apocalyptic (although hailstorm is a way cooler duo imo)
Was yet another duo related to Blitz, and a pretty cool and unique one

[civic ocean]

Zeus has some rockin duos

And a lot of them require you to take the blitz moves if you want a certain cast + gain!

[cunning pollen]

I managed to clear half a room but blitzing them with axe and doing 120 only to the weakest one

[civic ocean]

It's all connected

[cunning pollen]

I'm sorry it's gone, too

[barren juniper]

None of Blitz options make it a good primary damage source in the average case. King's Ransom requires extreme investment and luck. Doom could get by without the duo by using the cooldown reduction boon. Even without that, it was still a much safer playstyle while also being a better privileged status pick IMO.

[past salmon]

I'm sorry I may be misremembering but I am almost positive doom did not have a cooldown reduction boon

[cunning pollen]

Blitz is strictly better for origination, it lasts longer than doom

And no, it had a coolUP

[past salmon]

yeah I thought so

[magic moss]

imma be real blitz is a solid primary damage option low fear

[past salmon]

it can be very solid yeah

[barren juniper]

This is a mischaracterization of my arguments. You could make Blitz deal %HP or OHKO enemies and I'd still think it's unfun. The damage isn't directly the issue. I don't like the mechanics.

[civic ocean]

Okay, well too bad

[magic moss]

then this isnt an issue with blitz itself, you find it unfun while we dont think its as bad as you make it

[civic ocean]

Yeah I think Blitz mechanically is fun

[magic moss]

like i think blitz as a mechanic is far better than doom and would hate if doom was implemented in h2

[barren juniper]

You're right, I was mistaken. I was confusing it with the effect that boosts damage with successive doom applications.

[cunning pollen]

I think the misunderstanding here stems from whether something can be good on its own and how Hands-off it is

[barren juniper]

There's literally a support boon that makes Blitz doom haha.

[past salmon]

brother please make up your mind
First you say Blitz being a bad primary damage source is the problem now you are just changing your argument that even if it is a good primary damage source you don't care cuz you don't find it fun

[cunning pollen]

These are both things I don't really consider pros

[past salmon]

could you elaborate on this?

[cunning pollen]

Doom can do solid damage even if it's your only boon, and you can spray paint enemies with the bow special and run away to the other side of the room

[past salmon]

like it seems to me that you just don't like Blitz as a mechanic personally
It is your subjective view that you don't find Blitz fun
Thats fine though, not everyone is gonna like everything @barren juniper

[barren juniper]

I said it's a bad primary damage source because it's true. But I don't want to just increase the damage on it because that's not fun and doesn't fundamentally change the skill. Those aren't contradictory.

[cunning pollen]

I don't like running away to the other side of the room and wait for stuff to die

[past salmon]

It can be a very good primary damage source though
idk when I do my occasional low fear run and I'm running Blitz I can absolutely make Blitz pop off

[cunning pollen]

I do fresh file runs with the express purpose of learning to engage more mindfully with the active mechanics

[magic moss]

blitz being a bad primary damage source is just wrong

[civic ocean]

Kinda wanna change my discord name to include "objectively unfun"

[past salmon]

lmao
I think Abandon runs can fit under that term honestly

[cunning pollen]

Or fresh file lol

[civic ocean]

It's close!

[cunning pollen]

But I'm a moron and I find them fun

[past salmon]

I find fresh file fun
I have barely ran it though

[civic ocean]

I like the challenge but it certainly isn't gonna get won anytime soon unless the god luck blesses the run

[cunning pollen]

I have a number Chronos P2s, sometimes even without beach ball

[past salmon]

I would have a 55F done by now most likely if I had your ability to spend hours grinding that sht
I do 6 attempts get annoyed af and quit for a week lmao @civic ocean

[cunning pollen]

Haven't beaten him yet

[civic ocean]

should just do it tbh

[past salmon]

idk maybe I should but I just don't really vibe with forcing myself to do something when I'm not having fun
I;m sure ill eventually sit down and just grind it out but ehhh

[civic ocean]

Yeah I mean it doesn't really matter ig

I think 50f all weps is more impressive anyways

[past salmon]

Streaking 50F has been way more fun than 55F attempts have ever been