history

[eternal veldt]

Can't beat the best German designation though

[alpine onyx]

With no indication regarding the caliber

[eternal veldt]

G7 Steinbutt

[alpine onyx]

Butts are nice

[loud comet]

Is H-class and Bismarck use the same 150mm? Or H-class use the prototype one?

[hollow wind]

is tha maintenance done?

hm it should be done 30 more mins then

Bcs 8 hours

[eternal veldt]

It started around 4 hours ago...

[alpine onyx]

Bismarck and the H-class (were to use) used the same 150mm guns in what should be the same mountings

aka a downgrade from the Scharnhorsts

[eternal veldt]

The real question is if H-class still has that awful secbat trunk hole in the deck from Bismarck

[loud comet]

How about 406 mm/52 SK C/34, is the 52 means the calibers?

[alpine onyx]

Should have the same hole as Bismarck for the forward pair of 150s

Because of course she does

[eternal veldt]

The number 52 indicates the barrel is 52 times the length of the barrel bore, i.e. Calibers

Caliber without s indicates how big the bore of the barrel is

[alpine onyx]

tbf Scharny had it as well, but she also had a 150mm barbette as well as the 320mm main belt covering that hole

[eternal veldt]

The higher the calibers, usually the higher muzzle velocity

(Also likely higher barrel wear)

[dapper parcel]

Chamber pressure is better indicator for barrel wear

[eternal veldt]

Fair enough.

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3oCcfI4X6g

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

First F-16 Block 70

[spring briar]

Looks like a lego template

[manic latch]

Also seems Greek air force is coming to Paris

You guys getting very close lately

[spring briar]

How so?

Always loved greece

[manic latch]

You guys building them warships now right

Laid the second one just few days ago

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

And they will also purchase 18 Rafale from France

While also having defense promise

[spring briar]

🇬🇷❤️🇫🇷

[manic latch]

So current orders of Greece are

84 F-16 Block 70

20 F-35A

18 Rafale

Oh my bad

Greece made a new 6 more Rafale order

So it's 24 Rafale now

And 3 FDI frigates build by France

[manic latch]

Here is the steel cutting for second one

[spring briar]

They did it to em

[chilly osprey]

Erdogan the watermelon seller strikes again

[unborn wyvern]

I saw the Finlandball and my brain instantly went "Atchison Topeka and Santa Fe!"

[manic latch]

Manjuu knows

🤝

[dapper parcel]

For a long time I thought ATSF was yellow/blue-yellow, due to their livery

[frigid karma]

Ah yes chkalov, a ussr carrier with american radars, truly a feat of italian engineering

[spring briar]

Indeed

[manic latch]

I really expected them to be HMS instead. Since as I remember, Project 71 was inspired on Ark Royal

[ivory ridge]

no, you're think of 72, which is Volga in AL

[manic latch]

Nah 72 is Illustrious

Aka Volga

[spring briar]

[humble mulch]

So 71 and 72 were inspired off British CVS?

[manic latch]

72 for sure yes

Kinda sus about 71

Ark Royal and 71

hmm

[tough quail]

yeah HMS would've made more sense but w/e

[ivory ridge]

i read ark as lusty

EN moment

[tough quail]

i assume it's just to have a smidge more variety in leveling fleets since there isnt a USN ship in pr5

[ivory ridge]

look at the bright side, they didnt do the funny and make KMS for the first stage

[tough quail]

[ivory ridge]

Italy at least makes sense because like

you know

soviet navy

[frigid karma]

still malding about harbin xp requirements because she's easily best girl, i mean she's a soviet ship but no soviet vanguards?

[ivory ridge]

Soviet ships arent perma

well, other than Avrora

[manic latch]

Need Rossiya event to be added to perma

Then we talking

@humble mulch It's almost her laid down day now

[humble mulch]

Breast is also pecko pain cause only Iris L&D is perm do that's like 2m exp on some dds and sanrui

[manic latch]

Closest example I will get for her Birthday

[humble mulch]

Well welcome to AL where laid down date is a more correct Bday

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

One requires faith to unlock her after all

[frigid karma]

wait a second tea

you're talking about ingame PR ships in #history

mod aboose

[humble mulch]

Damn right
Actually thought this was lore until I realized Undie was here

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/273147912387559428/742599766416031864/image0-2.gif

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/leonardo-closes-in-on-maiden-sortie-of-aw249-attack-helicopter/149363.article

soon™️

[exotic scarab]

for whom?

[frigid karma]

I demand tea immediately be demoted to yellow flair for this off topic

red is redder than orange, and red is higher rank than orange. orange is redder than yellow, so tea should be demoted to yellow flair

[manic latch]

Italian Navy could be called teacher of Soviet Navy. So them helping the xp grind of Chkalov is cute detail

[exotic scarab]

so chkalov

I hope she gets more fanart

[humble mulch]

That’s my thought process as well, makes more sense to me to have them tied to the navy who was more or less actively the one helping them and giving them designs

[manic latch]

Yosh

[exotic scarab]

neat and what factions for the chinese PR girl

[frigid karma]

chinese only

[humble mulch]

Chinese

[frigid karma]

tea we better not get nuked for this

[humble mulch]

As Russians are not perm

[frigid karma]

[exotic scarab]

[humble mulch]

Due to Russians not being perm they cannot accurately tie them into the Chinese PR even tho the Soviets irl kinda helped them out and did gift them lots of ships and gave them info on ships going into the Cold War iirc

[frigid karma]

but like

it's a soviet ship

[exotic scarab]

add eminent domain shipfu yostar

[frigid karma]

you're not hurting anyone by adding soviet ships as an option

[humble mulch]

In AL it’s not a Soviet ship

Also Qwerty there’s only 1 perm Soviet

[frigid karma]

Using hai tien in w12 is gonna be

[manic latch]

Soviets only have Avrora as prem build ship.

If Rossiya event ships were added then maybe

[humble mulch]

It’s also again Chinese
I don’t think they’d tie Americans or British to it when they did like absolutely nothing to help the Chinese build their navy outside beat Japan lol

[manic latch]

If it was tier 9-10

Which are American ships

There would be american

[humble mulch]

Yeah if it’s American then sure

But this is a Soviet now Chinese PR so that imo doesn’t apply to Harbin

They do change requirements in different PRs but yeah
Wait till PR6 to see

[frigid karma]

Note changed funnel structure, lack of catapults, and the use of British Type 281 radar on the main mast.

harbin notes by silver

[humble mulch]

Using a British radar does not at all mean to use British ships for it

The Chinese also have what 9 ships in game now
With only 1 not being a vanguard

[frigid karma]

chang chun and uh

i think it was tai yuan?

are perma

along with chinaball

[humble mulch]

Aren’t Anshens all perm

And the purple fan girl who won CN was a freebie

So yeah you still have like 2 full fleets

If you are a newer player

[frigid karma]

only the two i said

[humble mulch]

Interesting, that’s still 5-6 ships, which is more then enough

Anyways

Time to repost this

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zKZFr5_E4PmNBBxSfODzK1h2zQffUb93o1UZEZBayF4/edit?usp=sharing

[manic latch]

New image China’s J-35 Carrier Fighter. The launch bar of the front wheel is roughly visible.

[humble mulch]

Launch bar? That’s the catapult hook up thing right?

[manic latch]

Yup. Since Fujian got catapults

God what a sexy lady she is

It's not Ulyanovsk level but she carries the manners

[desert agate]

lore and history being basically the same channel yet again

[manic latch]

As Undef mentioned

"Designed as a successor to the Italian army’s current AW129D Mangusta fleet, Leonardo was awarded a development contract in 2017 covering production of a total of five aircraft.
Italy projects an eventual requirement for 48 helicopters, with the Mangusta to be retired from 2025."

48

Hey Undef riddle me answer me this

Why Italy wasn't in Eurocopter Tiger program

[ivory ridge]

because the Eurocopter was built by a company made by the fusion of a german and french company

while Italy has its own Helicopter company

First Agusta, then Agusta-Westland, now under Leonardo

[dapper parcel]

Eurocopter is (was?) a full blown company for once, not a half assed joint venture, consortium or cooperation

stares at NHIndustries

[ivory ridge]

yes but again

The Eurocopter Tiger is a four-blade, twin-engine attack helicopter which first entered service in 2003. It is manufactured by Airbus Helicopters (formerly Eurocopter), which arose from the merger of Aérospatiale's and DASA's respective helicopter divisions

it's a german and french company becoming one

not an actual "european" project

then again, no "euro"-whatever has been an actual european project for now

This is the closest we are getting to one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Patrol_Corvette

Oh right, and the Eurodrone

wait the Tiger was a PESCO project?

[dapper parcel]

That's what I said, "Eurocopter" is a company proper name, not a project

Just like how "North American Aviation" is a company name and didn't represent the whole North America

[manic latch]

And speaking of cooperation

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/exclusive-britain-japan-aim-merge-tempest-f-x-fighter-programmes-sources-2022-07-14/

So if this new is true

This mean Tempest and F-X will die to create a new project?

[shrewd pecan]

I can’t wait for tempest to never be delivered

[ivory ridge]

it has WAY more chances than FCAS tbh

[frigid karma]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/07/14/italian-premier-mario-draghi-says-he-will-resign.html

[manic latch]

Dassault CEO said don't expect her before 2050

[frigid karma]

damn what is it with PMs this month

Sri Lanka, Boris, Abe, and now Mario

[ivory ridge]

Mattarella already said "lmao no"

so we will see

[shrewd pecan]

British lead multi national program of that scope

[frigid karma]

how do you reject a resignation

[ivory ridge]

he's his boss

[frigid karma]

ah

[manic latch]

@shrewd pecan Also congrats

General Dynamics Land Systems announced today that it has been awarded a competitive award worth up to $280,112,700 to procure Trophy Ready Kits as an Active Protection System (APS) for Abrams main battle tanks.

[shrewd pecan]

Yeah actual functional APS mass field able unlike the Russians

[manic latch]

Had to mention Russia didn't you

fine I guess

[shrewd pecan]

I mean what else is that purchase being directed towards

[ivory ridge]

He can do this because he still won the confidence vote they had today, but Draghi said he would resign if m5s didnt vote for it

m5s didnt, so he tried to resign

[shrewd pecan]

pacific wise that’s not really a tank fight

[manic latch]

How bout middle east as usual

[ivory ridge]

Mattarella had multiple options, this one was one of them

[shrewd pecan]

M1A2s TUSK kits have done fine in that regard tho future prospects of a major combat deployment to the Middle East are slim at this point

[manic latch]

Just need to find oil

[shrewd pecan]

we’ve already hit peak oil investment

[ivory ridge]

then there are rumours that this was all a strategy between Draghi and Mattarella to out the M5S, that would be pretty lmao

[shrewd pecan]

tho makes me wonder

When is the army gonna pick its truck bed howitzer

[manic latch]

Didn't they choose Archer yet?

[shrewd pecan]

they haven’t to my knowledge

[manic latch]

The evaluation saw national and international participants demonstrating their systems, including BAE Systems’ ARCHER, Elbit Systems of America’s ATMOS Iron Sabre, Nexter’s Caesar, AM General’s Brutus, and the NORA B-52 M21 system

So one of these

[shrewd pecan]

US armies gun artillery is needing the most attention in my opinion regarding modernization

there going the right way with the M109 replacement tho it’s looking like the M109s gonna stay around for a awhile regardless

[manic latch]

Still using the m109 right

Replacement never came

[shrewd pecan]

supplementing the M777s outside of airborne units with something like a American archer or Caesar

The M1299 is like

2 years away from service

it’s gonna outrange everything tho it’s looking like It isn’t fully replacing the M109

[manic latch]

[shrewd pecan]

US armies new division structure only shows like one M1299 unit with the rest being M109s

[manic latch]

It is expected to be fitted with an autoloader in 2025, which could increase its rate of fire from 3 to 10 rounds per

Fuck yes autoloader

[shrewd pecan]

I mean if it can do MRSI

that’s all that really matters

[manic latch]

It looks like a longer range m109

[shrewd pecan]

it can reach out to around 100 KMs with its top end round

[manic latch]

Says designed against latest developments from Russia and China

So if Russia development was koalitsiya-sv

What did China show

[shrewd pecan]

They have their own developments

idk army kinda skipped a entire generation of new SPGs with M109 modernizations

like they passed up the K9 and PZH-2000 generations

[manic latch]

I think there was a replacement project that died

It was the multi platform unit thingy

[shrewd pecan]

They had a program that included a engine replacement for the abrams

vehicle was too heavy along with other issues

[manic latch]

Finally 2000hp?

[shrewd pecan]

No same HP

[manic latch]

[shrewd pecan]

slightly better efficiency

[manic latch]

Not by fuel I assume. Since it's heavier now

[shrewd pecan]

abrams still has relatively the same range

[manic latch]

[shrewd pecan]

It can get you out to about 400 KMs on road 200 cross country regardless

[manic latch]

Do you think next gen Abrams will have new barrel

Longer one especially

[shrewd pecan]

probably not

[manic latch]

[shrewd pecan]

abrams doesn’t need it

[manic latch]

Then why Germany did it for their A6

[shrewd pecan]

tungsten has worse performance than DU

combined with lower pressure out of the German L/44

[manic latch]

Why Germany didn't passed to DU? Too expensive?

[shrewd pecan]

political reasons

combined with insufficient stocks of it

[manic latch]

Got it

[shrewd pecan]

idk even the L/55 isn’t necessary

You get similar performance out of the L/44 using DM53 and DM63

tho it’s still a notable drop

[strong plank]

I totally forgot this was happening today

a few hours ago they had the groundbreaking ceremony for the Desert Storm memorial in DC

[manic latch]

That's odd

Why 2022?

President Barack Obama authorized construction of the memorial in 2014, and President Donald Trump signed legislation in 2017 allowing for the memorial to be built near the National Mall.

Ohh

It's a very long progress

[spring briar]

@manic latch happy soyuz launch day

[chilly osprey]

Italy wasn't in the Tiger program because they already had their attack helicopters. The Mangusta precedes the Tiger by a decade.

[shrewd pecan]

Don’t they already have a A129 replacement in the works

[ivory ridge]

the whole conversation started because i posted about it yes

https://www.flightglobal.com/helicopters/leonardo-closes-in-on-maiden-sortie-of-aw249-attack-helicopter/149363.article

essentially an apache sized mangusta

[shrewd pecan]

Is it getting a longbow style radar?

[chilly osprey]

I don't recall any mention of anything like it for the AW249

[ivory ridge]

no, mostly cuz it uses spikes

[shrewd pecan]

shame no F&F capability

[ivory ridge]

the

spikes are f&f

[shrewd pecan]

depends on the spike

tho I’m assuming they’re probably the IR guided ones

[ivory ridge]

every spike is F&F, but only one version is NLOS

[shrewd pecan]

I’m getting the TV guided adjust after launch mode confused aren’t I

[ivory ridge]

yeah

but i think the Heli ones can still do that

The long and extended range versions of the Spike also have the capability of "Fire, Observe and Update" operating mode (also known as Lock-on after launch (LOAL))

[shrewd pecan]

I mean the vehicle ones can

don’t see why the A-129 can’t

[ivory ridge]

it should

im getting double confused now

[shrewd pecan]

I’ve only seen the spike fired in the post launch guidance mode

[manic latch]

thanks

[manic latch]

[dapper parcel]

Somehow someone managed to connect it to how Italian Navy bad

[alpine onyx]

Well duh, ever heard of Italian shell issues?

Was so bad, even the captain of the ship wrote about it after failing his task

[frigid karma]

Undie is approaching your location

[spring briar]

For a hug?!

[eternal veldt]

Iachino is a spy, he knew with 100% confidence that British optical equipment can see through heavy smoke, and guaranteed to be better than the Italian counterparts.

Should be executed, smh.

[lyric ginkgo]

hello

[spiral cedar]

Hello

[lyric ginkgo]

i would like to learn more about history but idk where to start

[spiral cedar]

Are you interested in books, videos, etc.? And what category, e.g. naval, military, food, etc.

[lyric ginkgo]

well i mostly like ww1

and i know a bit of it but i like to know more

and just overall

[spiral cedar]

Well, in terms of videos, there’s the Great War channel on YouTube for WWI

Are you interested more in the land or naval aspects?

If naval, I certainly have quite a reading list of articles and books

[lyric ginkgo]

i never really was interested in naval so not sure

[tender monolith]

i mean

i'll happily check out that list

[spiral cedar]

The Principles of War podcast has a podcast series on artillery in WWI, quite interesting

[lyric ginkgo]

the youtube channel is just called the great war channel?

[spiral cedar]

yes

[lyric ginkgo]

i c

i will check it out when im free

[spiral cedar]

https://theprinciplesofwar.com/firepower/

[lyric ginkgo]

its kinda weird if i look at myself, i dont like the naval but yet i play azur

[tender monolith]

thanks, i'll be sure to check that out

[manic latch]

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2022/07/14/italian-navy-telecom-provider-team-up-to-deter-attacks-on-undersea-cables/

✂️

[remote monolith]

https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkgbz7/new-dinosaur-meraxes-gigas-argentina

new Carcharodontosaurid get

11 meters long

it looks like Meraxes could possibly be the older cousin of both Mapusaurus and Giganotosaurus

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/among-us-amogus-mongus-amonculus-i-am-rapidly-approaching-you-gif-23047977

[ivory ridge]

[summer nimbus]

why does in-game, Zuikaku wants to fight enty? Is there any real-life references to this?

[spiral cedar]

The ships were on opposing sides at Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz

And later, Philippine Sea and Leyte Gulf, albeit less directly

[spring briar]

[zealous vine]

How theoretically effective was Alsace' design? If, by a miracle, they were to be built, and commissioned by the intended time and not end up like Vanguard, what use would she have?
(Im also curious as to which side she would've ended up on)

[chilly osprey]

Tbh, by the time the first member of the class would be commissioned, Allied naval superiority over the Axis would be so extreme that the specific performance of the ship wouldn't be super relevant

[eternal veldt]

You're looking at a delivery/commission date of at least Mid-1945 if Alsace is constructed. Undoubtedly on the Allied side, given the prerequisite of France not falling to Germany and still being capable of delivering resources to the Brest/St.Nazaire yards.

[chilly osprey]

But overall it was certainly a solid battleship design and would have been more than able to hold its own against a Bismarck, Littorio, or any Japanese battleships short of Yamato

Granted, as a rough guesstimate the first H-39 should become operational at the end of 1945, and should be followed by three more by mid-1946 when the second Alsace should also become operational.

[manic latch]

Gawd 1945-50 would be age of BBs if painter didn't go oof

Lions, Soyuzes, H-39s, maybe Montanas, All 5 Yamatos

And Alsaces of course

Would Italy still stick to Littorios or go for bigger when they see all other nations have big units now?

[eternal veldt]

They are already going for 406mms with the succeeding design.

[junior trench]

To be fair, the massive gap between the Nagatos and Yamatos makes it rather easy to come off better under those circumstances

[spring briar]

[willow onyx]

https://i.redd.it/ylj5je1cmqb91.jpg

[maiden citrus]

lmao

[inner bear]

Lol

[spring briar]

They did this in vietnam with voice recordings at night to demoralise the vietnamese with their ancestor worship

[willow onyx]

the LRAD but even more insane

[chilly osprey]

Depends on what gets priority in the 1939 program. The one from January 1939 that got axed called for both carriers and battleships. The RM put priority on the carriers, so they should have been built first, but that depends on the air force not donjg something dumb

Keeping in mind the Axis were expecting to kick off their war circa 1942-44, I would imagine the carriers would have priority as they were supposed to complete in 1943 and 1944

Whereas if battleships were built in their place you're probably looking at 1944 and 1945

Granted, the Italians were making their decision before the Alsace-class became a thing, and the French ordering of Alsace in mid-1940 may change their mind. The first 15,000-ton carrier was supposed to be laid down by Ansaldo (Genoa) in the second half of 1940 and the the second carrier by CRDA (Trieste) in 1941, so if they really felt the need they could have always delayed the second carrier to deferred it to a slower build on Ansaldo's second >200m slip, and had CRDA build a battleship that could be laid down around the same time as the first Alsace. Though only having a single ship in the class would be an extremely unusual move for the RM.

Ohhh, btw, @spring briar. I have a photograph of a shell for the 152/53. Unfortunately which specific shell it is is not identified;

(Ansaldo, supposedly circa 1927, showing a 152mm shell and propellant charge in an elevator cradle)

[spring briar]

Looks chonky

Also cute base design

Might be a common?

[chilly osprey]

I don't know if a common type was ever issued for the 152/53

Perhaps it's the lighter 47.5 kg shell?

Unfortunately I've never actually seen what was done to the shell to make it lighter, just that it was lighter

It doesn't seem to match the shape of the few 152mm shells I have in diagrams, at the very least

[spring briar]

It looks like one of those older ones from that drawing doesn’t it?

[chilly osprey]

Lower on the body, yeah, though the cap looks far to pointy. Granted, this is versus shells from circa 1901

[spring briar]

Maybe a practice shell

Those are often not listed by navweaps

[alpine onyx]

For Germany to still exist post 1945 without a war you kinda have to scratch a lot of their fleet programs

I'll allow Scharnhorst to exist because she's precious, but them building two Bismarcks and the entire H-class lineup and all the other stuff in the Z-plan is a highway to the bankrupt status

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

Krem

How are you celebrating soyuz launch

[manic latch]

Cake

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

cheesecake

[somber knoll]

did they also count the conversions of the two Aquila sisters? because as far as I know they were way beyond that 15,000 ton class.

unless ofc the girls were relatively new, circa '41 or something?

[chilly osprey]

The conversions were more a reaction to not having any carrier projects underway and the immediate outbreak of war. Such conversions had been planned in 1936 on efforts to act on them in 1939 and 1940 were largely reflecting the fact that they were the fastest way to get carriers given the imminent conflict

If dedicated carriers are under construction, and with no emergency to give impetus to such an effort, I doubt they would have happened

[somber knoll]

pretty much so yeah.

[chilly osprey]

To give a rough outline of Italian carrier projects from the mid-30s to '43;

(teal = plan/design only, green = a program actually executed)

And a selection of aircraft considered or planned for various projects over the interwar period;

[ivory ridge]

Navalized g.55 copium

[chilly osprey]

Honestly, I'm not hugely knowledgeable on a technical level, so idk how navalizable G.55 would be.

Though tbh I think seeing the F.5 & Z.1012 (single-engine version was intended for the carriers) air group would be rather cool

Oh, also, @ivory ridge , did you see the news on the PPA?

[ivory ridge]

No

[spring briar]

[chilly osprey]

RID reported that the navy intends to upgrade all seven ships to the 'Full' fit

Granted, this is going to be dependent on getting the funding for it, but that's the direction they now want to move in

[ivory ridge]

Nice

I heard it was likely, or at least that the light ones would be armed

Sensor wise too or just give weapons to the commissioned/launched lights and then build all the future ones to full standards?

[chilly osprey]

I would assume so

[ivory ridge]

BMD goes brr

[chilly osprey]

Though with Paolo Thaon di Revel in service and Francesco Morosini to commission soon, I'd kind of assume they (the two 'Light' type) will probably not be modified immediately, while the Light+ all are still under various stages of construction

It's also possible that they're just planning on procuring another pair of PPA and selling off the Light's to the Greeks, which is apparently being floated as a deal sweetener for the Greek corvette program.

Much less work to modify the Light+ than the Light anyways, given they already have the C-band radar and the VLS cells installed

[ivory ridge]

now we just need 3 DDX

[chilly osprey]

That would be pretty great. And then replace the Orizzonte at the end of the 2030s with a trio rather than a pair.

Though tbh, I suspect the DDX will stay at 2, and they'll shoot for four when it comes to the Orizzonte replacement

Since that's going to be a joint program, most likely, either leading with the Spanish in tow, or a larger program with the French involved too

[ivory ridge]

Eurodestroyer

EPC wise how is it looking

I havent seen much about that recently

[spring briar]

Sounds cool

[chilly osprey]

Well, at this point I have no idea what Greek participation in the program is going to look at given they're doing their own procurement thing right now for four corvettes, but, aside from that?

Not super clear, but it seems they want procurement to start fairly soon. If you remember that recent outline of future procurement for the MMI that was shown off at the conference in Genoa this past April, they outlined EPC deliveries as starting in 2027 and running until 2034

So it seems like production could start as early as 2024, or perhaps 2025

[spring briar]

Looks cute

[tender monolith]

dome

[chilly osprey]

Kind of a baby FREMM

At least for the Italian ships, they're almost certainly going to be built at Muggiano, which should have plenty of space now that the Qatari order is wrapping up and the last two corvettes are fitting out.

[ivory ridge]

Would italy put a strales on it instead of SR

[chilly osprey]

Depends on if it needs the Strales mount to use the Strales system

If they use the NA-30S Mk.2 instead of the NA-25X, then the guidance function for DART can be handled entirely by the fire control director rather than needing the on-mount RF antenna

[desert agate]

buy nulka

[ivory ridge]

The SR mount looks better but the small radar of the strales looks cool

Idk, maybe it would still help

[chilly osprey]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[chilly osprey]

That would be for a different function. Active decoy vs CIWS system.

[desert agate]

buy it

[ivory ridge]

Shoo you aussie

[desert agate]

[chilly osprey]

looks at procurement line of Bullfighter-D

whoops

[desert agate]

yeah because its german

[spring briar]

[spiral cedar]

Kinda curious now what each navy thought of the other’s largest battleship

[manic latch]

Germany: H-42 design pops up

Japan: Likely burned all archives about their German style designs if they even had one

[manic latch]

Actually wait

H-42 was 1942 design right not 1943

It would make sense that the sudden weird jump between H-41 and 42 was because of Yamato visit of Germans

But if not. No clue

[chilly osprey]

The New Ship Design Commission was working on their, uh, 'designs', starting in the latter part of 1942 and running through to 1944

But serious battleship design in Germany was basically done in August 1942 when they finished worked on H-41

[alpine onyx]

H-42 and following were reactions to bigger bomb threats

Could say that Pearl Harbor maybe contributed to that, fearing that the Brits might throw AP shells out of their planes

But obv not serious work, more of a "assume this was thrown at a battleship, what kind of armor would it need?"

[ivory ridge]

Bote

[spring briar]

Love the chubby barrels

[maiden citrus]

that is half the fun after all, it's fun to make toys but even more fun to share with the class

[strong plank]

iirc Kaiser Wilhelm and Tsar Nicholas would send each other christmas cards, usually with pictures of their newest battleships

[subtle prawn]

Le Triomphant shortly after her completion in 1936. (Philippe Caresse collection)

[spiral cedar]

Quora people saying that long range dispersion patterns of 100 meters is typical and 500 is very large

[maiden citrus]

lol

[tough quail]

i keep saying this but i find it absolutely adorable the soviets just got sent a prototype pershing for little more than to get their thoughts on it

look guys we made this cool thing whatchu think

[spiral cedar]

For ranges 10 or 15 miles out, once ranged in, the circle of probability was probably around 100 yards.

[ivory ridge]

wows moment

[frigid karma]

Wows players

Fuck you undie

[ivory ridge]

cope

[frigid karma]

Curse you

[spiral cedar]

Part of this involved the guns in the turrets were located too close to one another, and when simultaneously fired, would tend to ‘push’ the shells AWAY from one another, and that might mean a dispersion of up to 500 Meters at long range.

[maiden citrus]

500 is still normal for 'long' range

[spiral cedar]

yuh

Most battleships in WW2 could count on a ‘hit ratio’ of about 10% at long range targets

[frigid karma]

I bet he got this from the Belfast guns thing

[spiral cedar]

Italians actually

[maiden citrus]

iirc the standards had 300 to 400 at range by ww2 time

[spiral cedar]

But about the 12.6” ships for some reason

This issue of ‘dispersion,’ that is the difference between what you aimed at, and where the shells actually landed, could be very pronounced indeed, and the Italians and Japanese were never able to rectify this issue to any appreciable degree.

Ah yes

[maiden citrus]

the japanese?

[spiral cedar]

The Japanese never used those firing delays on Yamato that the USNTMJ commented on as being needlessly complex but effective

Those are just fake news

[chilly osprey]

My brother in Christ

Barrel spacing was not an issue on the 320mm

[spiral cedar]

yuh

[chilly osprey]

Quora is a hive of illiteracy

[maiden citrus]

[manic latch]

For Iowa crew, how long does it take for AA crew to reach their mounts. (Let's say an event where air attack is happening while they were sleeping)

Other BBs are fine if you know their times as well

[spiral cedar]

This use of “sigma” hits my alarm bells

The North Caralinas could have had 15 inches of armor and 23 knots speed.

Found Maka

[tough quail]

that do be a Maka Moment

[strong plank]

I’d think for any battleship it’d be like a minute or less

[ivory ridge]

You forgot the 500mm guns

[strong plank]

I think that depends more on the crew than the ship

[spiral cedar]

new people join a server
gun dispersion mentioned
2 of the new people mention Italian shell quality control

list of Bismarck’s armor

4.7-inch armor on the deck

No

bad

[exotic scarab]

[spiral cedar]

This meant close range combat so the German Battleships had to have

Thick armor belts

https://tenor.com/view/well-yes-but-actually-no-well-yes-no-yes-yes-no-gif-13736934

[exotic scarab]

nah what they needed for close range combat was spikes

and big harpoons so they can actually start boarding

[maiden citrus]

in some timeline, extra chonky nc exists, there were a few 15'' belt nc design studies though the most famous one is one with 14'' guns in 3x3 with 5.25'' deck at 598 feet 32.5k tons (so lots to play with), so they're not wrong

you'd probably like design V, which is 660 feet, 2x4 16'', 15.5'' belt and 6.3'' deck at 27 knots 35k tons

never forget what they took from you (standard studies), I would've happily accepted 20ish knots instead of 21ish for 1.5'' more belt

https://puu.sh/JbieP.png

[frigid karma]

Remember, spamming that Bismarck flaws video isn’t historically accurate

But it’s accurate enough

And triggers IB flair, which is good

[somber knoll]

size aside, I just think 14 inchers on a thicc belt NC would be... peculiar for a post-standard designs to say the least.

[maiden citrus]

well designs like that were made before 16'' was allowed

[somber knoll]

I figure WNT's 16 incher limit was after their finalised design? nvm that's Naval Ordnance stuff shenanigans not WNT.

and that was before even the Mark 5 was planned too?

[maiden citrus]

if you mean the mark 6, it was designed but they weren't sure if it was going to be able to be put on a ship, the 14''/50 mark b was planned for that one

[somber knoll]

I mean the Colorados' Mark 5.

[maiden citrus]

oh yeah those were around at this time

[somber knoll]

le funni thing because the Americans just dusted the chonky Mark 3s in Newport or somewhere

[maiden citrus]

well actually the mark 6 was not designed before that one because it's an earlier nc design, the mark 5 was around though

[somber knoll]

btw, how much is the weight difference between the Mark 2/3s compared to the Mk 5/6s?

[maiden citrus]

nc mark 6 guns are about 30 tons lighter than old mark 2 guns

[somber knoll]

still a bit chonky.

[maiden citrus]

colorado mark 5 guns are about 10 tons lighter than the old mark 2

but the mark 2 is a very powerful gun

[somber knoll]

yeh.
I tend to forget that they had 5 caliber difference in length which kinda adds to the Mark 3's chonk
still feels 😩 when they skipped it.

[alpine onyx]

How about we just say that Bismarck's side armor added up to ~660mm?

Just add up the LoS thickness of belt, slope and torpedo bulkhead

[spiral cedar]

320 + 294 + 40 = 654, and then toss in some of the backing layers on the belt?

Could work

[alpine onyx]

Should be 45mm torpedo bulkhead

And I forgot the backing material!

Time to blindly add those 40 or 50mm wood on top

[spiral cedar]

And...16mm of Sbs III?

[alpine onyx]

[spiral cedar]

Now it's 725 mm

[alpine onyx]

With 725mm of armor it's no surprise that he withstood all that shellfire

[spiral cedar]

(the wood counts since it's 'spaced armor')

(or 'composite armor')

Wasn't there some wacko who said Bismarck had shape memory alloy as armor?

[alpine onyx]

Maybe on Quora

[spiral cedar]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/969162938478891008/unknown.png

Ya

[alpine onyx]

I haven't seen one, I'd remember something that cringworthy

Okay now I do

Thanks, I hate it

[frigid karma]

memory foam armor

wtf

[unborn wyvern]

Yeah, the one from Fuckin' Arpeggio

[tender monolith]

LOL

[noble zenith]

ah yes just magically repair all damages

[maiden citrus]

just like british bbs in wows

[shrewd pecan]

average Quora moment

[alpine onyx]

Meanwhile Bismarck: "No time to fix our stern, just blow it off entirely!"

[spiral cedar]

There's no such thing as a flower class. Ship classes are named after their lead ship not the naming convention or else all 70 American battleships would be called "State Class" Every Cruiser would be called "City Class" and every destroyer "Famous Seaman Class"

[desert agate]

i think this is referring to the flowers having a rather non-standard pattern of weaponry and other systems due to the extent of their construction

its still dumb

but ye

[eternal veldt]

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/254483-whats-the-point-of-having-light-cruisers-and-heavy-cruisers/ no.

[spiral cedar]

The Brits didn't have any battleship that could compete with the Bismarck class. That's why they tried to get the Iowa Class to engage and sink it.

As evidenced by the Royal Navy hanging back in May 1941 until February 1943 to fight the Bismarck, after all

[eternal veldt]

Guy is a complete tool.

[spiral cedar]

Hey now

Tools are at least useful

[eternal veldt]

Had a "nice" argument with him over in the WoWS discord over the Russian hybrid.

[remote monolith]

was about to say, tools are invaluable, that'll be insulting to them

[eternal veldt]

I think this is the same guy that said the 5"/45 Mark 42 had the same range as a BB gun, etc. etc.

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/255534-hypothetical-ise-battlecarrier-redesign/ There's also this absolutely genius design, though not relevant to the poster.

the IJN should have hired him.

[desert agate]

fucking hell almost everyone involved in that discussion is dumb

oh my fucking god

do you even top weight bro

[eternal veldt]

Spon, you're wrong. Warspite doesn't exist.

[desert agate]

most intelligent kancolle fan

[alpine onyx]

I'm no means an expert mathematics or engineering, but I'm quite confident, that if you did the math and engineering on the proposed design that it would prove me correct, and you wrong; and the design would, indeed be usable and cost effective.

[remote monolith]

man even the name is already annoying as shit, much less the smug filled answer

[alpine onyx]

This still deserves to be framed and hung up at my wall

[desert agate]

I'm no means an expert mathematics or engineering
should have stopped there really

[eternal veldt]

Sirene should still remember the guy whining about Iowa's tiering in WoWS.

Also, had major issue with us discussing anything history related and not just "purely" on "WoWS history".

[alpine onyx]

Why did you make me remember this?

[eternal veldt]

Most intelligent Canned Coal Fan indeed.

[alpine onyx]

Oi, don't lump me into the same group as that thing

[eternal veldt]

Oh, right. You still play?

[desert agate]

[alpine onyx]

But shi- off topic

[eternal veldt]

uh oh

[alpine onyx]

dodges ban hammer

[eternal veldt]

banned

[desert agate]

all of #history is banned for off topic

[alpine onyx]

Gonna dodge like Hermes dodged those four waves of dive bombers

[eternal veldt]

ZG-3 is not real.

[desert agate]

[spiral cedar]

But why bother building cruisers at all when Jutland proved they were death traps in the face of Battleships?

[eternal veldt]

🏃‍♂️

[desert agate]

so uh

youre not dodging?

[eternal veldt]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_destroyer_Vasilefs_Georgios Should be her, not HMS Hermes.

[alpine onyx]

Mhm

[eternal veldt]

Sirene likes this boat too much.

[desert agate]

[alpine onyx]

She's cute

And hard working

And grossly underappreciated by pop history

Tho that may be a plus

[spiral cedar]

[desert agate]

phoenix you fool

he cannot be reasoned with

he is may allah forgive me for uttering this phrase

a kancolle fan

this person is like maine they read 1 piece of dubiously factual information and treat it entirely as gospel and use it to come up with more batshit ideas

[shrewd pecan]

man I check the chat after being unable to fall asleep

and I get to see the absolute big brains of the WOWs forums

[maiden citrus]

[undone remnant]

The Germans sunk warspite in Jutland (duh)
100%

Cape Matapan didn't happen either

[eternal veldt]

Yeap. The Italians just got drunk and had a party on their first rate cruisers. They all scuttled themselves.

Please don't kill me phoenix and undie

[undone remnant]

Same with Giulio cesare

Those dumb Italians kept setting themselves on fire

[maiden citrus]

when the wine armor has you acting unwise

[undone remnant]

As for this it's just

[eternal veldt]

Ah yes, I wonder why the British decided to completely rebuild the ship afterwards.

[undone remnant]

What else is in here

Also mers el kébir being an equivalent to pearl harbor is

pffffft

[ivory ridge]

[spring briar]

Who is suggesting this notion?

Or is it just sarcasm

[manic latch]

F-16 Block-70 will have APG-83

Should be significant boost

The APG-80 is the AESA radar on UAE's Block 60 F-16s while the APG-83 is a Scalable radar that is available to both older F-16s (Block 20 to 50) and the current Block 70 F-16. The APG-83's scalable design allows it to be integrated into all F-16s going back to Block 20

[manic latch]

wait does that mean Block 60 is stronger than 70

[spring briar]

Why

[manic latch]

Brurm

Brerm

[spring briar]

Shh

[royal kestrel]

The reason APG-83 has lower expected performance than the APG-80 here is because it's meant to be retro-fittable to older F-16 blocks that have air-cooling for their radars, which limits the performance you can get out of it. APG-80 only went on the Block 60/62s and those were designed with liquid cooling systems to accommodate it

[manic latch]

What about build from 0 Block 70 models? Can't they add that feature

[royal kestrel]

Whether new production Block 70/72 have better cooling systems and can get more performance out of the same set I don't know

[manic latch]

Ah

[spring briar]

[royal kestrel]

This is where that diagram comes from and it explains the assumptions they made while calculating those ranges, by the way: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337985199_On_the_use_of_AESA_Active_Electronically_Scanned_Array_Radar_and_IRST_InfraRed_SearchTrack_System_to_Detect_and_Track_Low_Observable_Threats

Apparently APG-83 comes with some kind of self-contained liquid-cooling system built into the radar set itself, but I'm guessing it's not going to be as good as an airframe that was built with the cooling systems to support these sort of radars from the ground up

[manic latch]

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/fist-fight-fist-fight-film-ice-cube-snitches-get-stitches-gif-7391040

@royal kestrel Also sorry for tag but what's wrong with the engine of F-35?

Where it's already getting plans for improvement/upgrade

Pratt & Whitney says upgrades to the existing engine would entail fewer new factors and less risk compared to a new model engine, and a souped-up version would still have an improved core to provide added power, thrust, range and cooling

[royal kestrel]

No idea, sorry

[manic latch]

[manic latch]

Tweedie said GE’s XA100 engine is able to offer 25% more fuel efficiency than the current F135, which would increase the range of an F-35 by 30%. He also said it could provide 10-20% more thrust, which would lead to 25-40% greater acceleration and twice the thermal management.

[spring briar]

Idc lol

[eager dove]

There’s nothing wrong with the F-35’s current engine

They are just working on improved versions

[royal kestrel]

I wonder if they'll end up with a dual-engine option setup like the F-16's AFE program

[eager dove]

It’s something to keep in mind that the F135 as a design is over a decade old

Material technology can move fast

[manic latch]

But it will mean they have to change all their F35 models with the new engine right. So more F35 they produce with the old engine, more time and money will spend on it for the engine change. Rather than building it with it

I assume 2030 will be the new engine

[shrewd pecan]

the F-35s intended to serve until the 2070s

at somepoint its gonna need a engine replacement

[eager dove]

You don’t have to change them out it’s just beneficial to do so

The new engine isn’t ready yet so they can’t build with it

[shrewd pecan]

new engine from what I've seen

is gonna use new future engine technologies

along with other improvements that aren't gonna be ready for awhile anyways

[eager dove]

The new engine is largely an efficiency thing more so then performance anyway

If you want the upgrade it will be available but it’s not required

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney_XA101
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_XA100

engines are also intended for the USAFs sixth gens so

[manic latch]

[shrewd pecan]

regarding engine swapping costs considering the engines are being designed for the F-35

Would be a standard engine swap likely to switch them out for the older ones

[humble mulch]

@manic latch found the Sevastoplol dockyard photo

The naval shipyard in Sevastopol. What escaped German bombs, was destroyed by the Bolsheviks
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/515583624083406848/850521878329294868/Bessarabia-Ukraine-Crimea-321.png

Can you name what ships are shown?

A 10000-tons cruiser built on the Nikolayev shipyard

[manic latch]

Ahhh

2 Chapayev sisters

They were destroyed in Nikolayev

Together with Sovetskaya Ukraina

[manic latch]

She is either Ordzhinikidze or Sverdlov

Tho...

Molotov was also build there

Do you know the timing of the picture?

Ah nevermind

These are taken by Axis soldiers aren't they

So it gotta be Chapayev

I think that's Ukraina at the back

Left of the picture

[humble mulch]

these are from 41-42 after the invasion of Sevastopol

and yeah from german and romanian photographers

[spring briar]

Chkalov

[humble mulch]

found the site: http://www.allworldwars.com/Romanian-and-German-Troops-in-Bessarabia-Ukraine-Crimea-1941-42-Part-I.html

I had originally gotten them from a Russian copy of it whihc has died

[manic latch]

Yup

They reached to Sovetskaya Ukraina

Taken pictures of her most

[spring briar]

[humble mulch]

the photos from that site are interesting cause there really wasnt much combat until they hit the larger towns and cities

[manic latch]

Yep

At least this picture somewhat shows the scale of Soyuz class

This should be Submarine S-36

[humble mulch]

Bombs falling on Sevastopol

good aerial photo, you can see what I am assuming is the dockyards to the left of the smoke

[manic latch]

Just in case

Ukraina and 2 Chapayevs were under construction in Nikolayev

While not sure about Sevastopol construction

Likely civilian ships mostly?

[humble mulch]

Romanian navy secures the coast of the Black Sea (1 & 2)

[humble mulch]

yeah theres a photo of a few wrecked civilian ships but I have zero idea what actually was in the dockyards

[spring briar]

Stop

[manic latch]

Yeah Romanians also take fortification on snake island

[spring briar]

You are hurting me

[manic latch]

On 1 December 1942, while the Soviet cruiser Voroshilov together with the destroyer Soobrazitelny were bombarding the island with forty-six 180 mm and fifty-seven 100 mm shells, the cruiser was damaged by Romanian mines, but it managed to return to Poti for repairs under her own power. During the brief bombardment, she struck the radio station, barracks and lighthouse on the island, but failed to inflict significant losses

[humble mulch]

lol

[manic latch]

So our good ol Mechanic was there

[humble mulch]

when 2 Italian pseudo navies fight
no one sinks

[manic latch]

Fun fact island belonged to Romania till 1948

Because of this invasion

[spring briar]

Krem

[manic latch]

Ye

[spring briar]

You got Voroshilov pics?

[humble mulch]

[spring briar]

What’s wrong tea?

[spring briar]

[spring briar]

Kirov class still looks great despite their flaws

[manic latch]

[humble mulch]

island should have stayed with Romanian

[manic latch]

mine

Soviets put a radar on it the moment Romanians left

[spring briar]

Apostolov

[manic latch]

[manic latch]

Island has very interesting story actually

Despite being so small

The island was sacred to the hero Achilles and had a temple of the hero with a statue inside

Greeks named it "Fidonisi" meaning Snake Island

[hollow wind]

The D4Y Judy

A pretty good dive bomber design

Until they all got shot down on the Philippines

[spring briar]

[tough quail]

[spring briar]

Hi horse

[manic latch]

Soviet legacy

[tough quail]

hi richy

[spring briar]

Hi phoe

[manic latch]

But yes. Easiest way to find who is Lia and who is Shan is by their windows

[chilly osprey]

hullo

[manic latch]

Feniks

[spring briar]

Have been in Southern France so haven’t had much time for history

[hollow wind]

ah yes only used in air shows bcs the amount of speed you will lose is astonishing and is bad

[chilly osprey]

Hmmm, that actually makes me curious. Any good naval museums in Toulon or Marseilles?

[frigid karma]

but my top gun maverick

[hollow wind]

ik

[manic latch]

I think F-35 can't do it

While F-22 can

[hollow wind]

nope definitely not

[manic latch]

Since she has Thrust vectoring

[hollow wind]

yeah

And then there’s that one

https://tenor.com/view/pugachev-pugachevscobra-cobra-cobra-maneuver-jet-gif-17240783

[spring briar]

Toulon naval museum

Marseille I don’t know

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

[shrewd pecan]

The legacy F-18 can cobra

I think the F-35 can as well

[manic latch]

[shrewd pecan]

No reason why it shouldn’t it has better nose authority than the F-18 and F-16

[manic latch]

NASA F-18 High Alpha Research Vehicle (HARV) had Thrust vectoring

[shrewd pecan]

It’s not really dependent on thrust vectoring

[manic latch]

Is it more about the airframe?

[hollow wind]

hm

[shrewd pecan]

yeah

[hollow wind]

https://tenor.com/view/fighter-jet-cobra-man-fighter-jet-cobra-maneuver-cobra-maneuver-cobra-fighter-jet-gif-19378638

[tough quail]

im pretty sure they can, yeah

they just cant do the full flip

[shrewd pecan]

I mean just look at the Swede aircraft

[hollow wind]

That’s the not so benefits of doing that on combat

You go like helicopter speeds of slow

[tough quail]

thats uh

[frigid karma]

does that count as thrust vectoring

[tough quail]

kind of the point

[hollow wind]

well you go hella slow and one random dud that has any angle and a missile lock is gonna kill you immediately

Even after the jet before passed you after you do the manouver

[tough quail]

you wouldn't do it if there's multiple guys on your ass, obviously

[hollow wind]

that’s why they only do it on air shows

[manic latch]

It needs to do this

[tough quail]

[manic latch]

Thrust vectoring F-18 of Nasa

[humble mulch]

looks fucking horrible, just makes me thing the dude lost control and shit lmao

[hollow wind]

hm turret placements

[humble mulch]

thats what I do in project wingwan when I just give um trying to target shit

[hollow wind]

The AOA limit or

just spin

[tough quail]

violently cartwheel

[hollow wind]

yep

[humble mulch]

lmao

[hollow wind]

PSM but easier

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/mig21-mig-jet-backflip-post-stall-gif-23327084

[humble mulch]

see thats cool

thats a real cartwheel

[manic latch]

Mig-21

[tough quail]

double kulbit because having blood is for assholes

[humble mulch]

thats not "hurr durr my plane in now screaming at me and I dont feel well"

[hollow wind]

yep

[shrewd pecan]

anyway now that I'm done with my workout something I discovered last night that I want to post here from the CBO that's helpful in visualizing military spending
https://www.cbo.gov/force-structure-tool

it's a little thing that shows you how much you would either save or cost by cutting or increasing certain elements of the US military

for example here's what cutting most of the A-10 squadron and the entire LCS fleet would look like

[exotic scarab]

Not enough orange

Also how do you even do that

[manic latch]

Didn't Pentagon just got 58 billion $ bonus for its budget? Why cut things

[humble mulch]

cause A-10s fucking suck

[manic latch]

May outlive F-22

[shrewd pecan]

its just a visualization I found after a discussion with my friends

[exotic scarab]

[shrewd pecan]

since the thing about military spending either way

you need to look at what you're either cutting or boosting

[manic latch]

[exotic scarab]

Why are we boosting it

[shrewd pecan]

inflation

and you know

-current world event-

[manic latch]

Arms Race

[exotic scarab]

My dude certain events show we may not need such a bloated army

[shrewd pecan]

yeah I wouldn't take that take away

[exotic scarab]

[shrewd pecan]

since that's overlooking

many many things

[manic latch]

[tough quail]

hoo boy

[desert agate]

does cobra manoeuvre in live combat
gets wiped out by an AMRAAM from 120km away

[shrewd pecan]

but that's the most I'd talk about here

[exotic scarab]

We should give that money to nasa

[manic latch]

Even monkeys use weapons time to time

[exotic scarab]

Please

[shrewd pecan]

what is NASA gonna do with it?

[exotic scarab]

Rockets

[manic latch]

Space Rock

[shrewd pecan]

overspend on another program for 20 years then cancel it

[exotic scarab]

And stuff for the moon mission

[manic latch]

Ye useless

[exotic scarab]

[shrewd pecan]

I mean if your talking moon program

I don't really see why NASA needs that ballpark of money per year

[manic latch]

Hey don't be sad tho. Military satellites are getting more and more popular

[exotic scarab]

When did the military industrial complex really become such a major force

[shrewd pecan]

like giving NASA 2-6 billion dollars a year more makes a lot more sense than dumping them with a 100% budget increase they won't know what to do with

[exotic scarab]

Nasa doesn't have a long list of warcrimes in the cold war

[manic latch]

Cain killed Able.

If Able had a weapon Cain wouldn't dare

[shrewd pecan]

have the world banks data on US military spending to GDP over the last 60 years

[manic latch]

Cold war

[exotic scarab]

We just hired nazis

[manic latch]

As a superpower. You should get every opportunity you can

[shrewd pecan]

I'm gonna be honest

the actual involvement of Nazi scientists

outside of like Wernher von Braun

[manic latch]

outside

[shrewd pecan]

is pretty minimal on the US

I do agree captured V-2s did get the US a good jump start regarding space

[exotic scarab]

Also here's something spicy I learned

[shrewd pecan]

tho actual nazi scientists didn't really attribute much outside of Wernher von Braun in many aspects

[hollow wind]

The fall of USSR just delayed space travel by more than 2 decades

[spring briar]

The US

[manic latch]

[exotic scarab]

During the time we wanted to take Cuba there were plans to fake a terrorist attack

[hollow wind]

sad Ik

[exotic scarab]

To get public support

[shrewd pecan]

yeah CIA being the CIA

[exotic scarab]

[hollow wind]

300+ failed assassination attempts

[manic latch]

Bay of Pigs invasion

[exotic scarab]

Don't even do a overview of Cia shit in the cold war

[hollow wind]

On Castro

[shrewd pecan]

god if there's anyone to chase after with budget cuts its the intelligence community

[exotic scarab]

It really makes you hate America

[hollow wind]

well now it’s a more of a mess

[shrewd pecan]

I mean

your kinda just forgetting

what everyone else was doing at the time

[exotic scarab]

[hollow wind]

The coolest duds for me in medieval ages

[exotic scarab]

But we were taught that we did democracy in the cold war if taught at all

[manic latch]

American exceptionalism died indeed

[shrewd pecan]

here's the thing

[exotic scarab]

Didn't they do literal genocide

[shrewd pecan]

the CIA's proposal for false flag terrorist attacks were rejected for multiple reasons

[exotic scarab]

And what was a real early version of what the nazis wanted to do

[hollow wind]

well maybe if less Christians were crazy we would be more eham peaceful

[exotic scarab]

[manic latch]

Is this what created Bush did 9/11 thingy

[exotic scarab]

No

[hollow wind]

basically if less fanatics on both sides

[exotic scarab]

Most people don't know about this because

Us history education ain't that good

[shrewd pecan]

I mean the entire lead up to 9/11 was the FBI and CIA horribly fucking up

and failing to pursue multiple warning signs and intelligence lines

[manic latch]

[exotic scarab]

But oil

[shrewd pecan]

Afghanistan doesn't have economical oil deposits

[exotic scarab]

Wait so why did we stay for decades

[shrewd pecan]

sunk cost fallacy

combined with the outcome of the pull out in Iraq

[exotic scarab]

[shrewd pecan]

the US would of pulled out in the early 2010s if Iraq didn't immediately erupt into civil war after we pulled out there

[hollow wind]

well the only thing I know about Afghanistan is m o u n t a i n s

[exotic scarab]

Anyway back to the middle ages since thatsnot a controversial subject

[manic latch]

Soviets: Fail after 10 years

US: Sure we can do bette-

[shrewd pecan]

we repeated the same mistakes the Soviets made tbh

[exotic scarab]

Do you think the vikings could have actually made a sustainable settlement in vinland

[hollow wind]

they did travel north instead for funy

Now I gotta sleep

[exotic scarab]

If they didn't accidentally poison the natives because they were lactose intolerant

[manic latch]

He who learns everything yet knows nothing

[shrewd pecan]

I don't know why the fuck we thought it was a smart idea to tell the ANA to abandon the country side and important roads to defend the cities

[exotic scarab]

[manic latch]

[exotic scarab]

You see what we needed to do was

March in lines

[manic latch]

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_Papers

"In one of the interviews, which were conducted through the agency's Lessons Learned Program, an official estimated that 40% of U.S. aid to Afghanistan since 2001 ended up in the pockets of corrupt officials, warlords, criminals and insurgents."

[exotic scarab]

[manic latch]

F

[shrewd pecan]

we failed to reach out to the rural parts of afghanistan and to afghanistan traditional power structures

along with the failure to make a adequate fighting force and security services for the country

[manic latch]

What was the reason French didn't join

[shrewd pecan]

I mean they did

they sent troops to Afghanistan

[manic latch]

[manic latch]

Yeah

[shrewd pecan]

like

[manic latch]

Restaurant 🥖

[shrewd pecan]

ANA's officer corps was heavily corrupt

we failed to provide benefits for ANA soldiers

and then had the entire combat effectiveness of the ANA weighing down on the Afghan army commandos

the only confident part of the ANA with actual good officers

that then fell apart when they weren't getting western airsupport

[manic latch]

Well

I guess Afghanistan is alone now

[frigid karma]

is the us war in afghanistan too recent for this channel

[manic latch]

Doubt anyone will touch it again

[frigid karma]

i mean

[shrewd pecan]

I mean

these issues draw back

to the early 20s

I'm not really discussing the politics around the pull out

[frigid karma]

us pulled out in august 2021

[shrewd pecan]

just the pullout broke the camels back

not if the pull out was a good idea or not

[manic latch]

Oct 7, 2001 – Aug 30, 2021. Did take a long time yes

[frigid karma]

considering [redacted] is considerd current politics and not discussable, i'm not sure if afghanistan counts as "modern politics" and will get us whacked by mods

they'r pretty eager to whack anybody for off topic nowadays