This is the same argument as before
#history
desert agate
humble mulch
So yeah you're actually trolling
desert agate
most of them went to the Vichy tho
exotic scarab
not exactly a expert on the africian front
humble mulch
There is no gremamy was off guard
remote monolith
told ya, he's going in circles ever since yesterday
exotic scarab
but didnt italy do a large portion of the work
frigid karma
did berci ragequit or get banned
humble mulch
He's been going in circles since day one
remote monolith
avoiding direct answers, hopping from issues to issues, never citing definite sources
rinse and repeat
humble mulch
did berci ragequit or get banned
Banned you fucking ape
We've been over it
To many times
fervent bobcat
avoiding direct answers, hopping from issues to issues, never citing definite so...
I have not seen one of you cite a single source either
desert agate
tender monolith
sorry for some of us not being here 24/7 lol
tough quail
it's not about being around it's just qwerty has the IQ of the average brick
fervent bobcat
dont hit me with that wikipedia citation
strong plank
tbf most of that was in #al-lore
frigid karma
and now i'm banned from there
humble mulch
Well no berci has been beaten like a dead horse in every server we are in
exotic scarab
I did not expect aussie posting from that question mate
strong plank
don't hit us with that no citation
desert agate
dont hit me with that wikipedia citation
tender monolith
oho
exotic scarab
sir
frigid karma
SoCiAl CrEdIt mEmEs BaD
exotic scarab
this is a discord debate
exotic scarab
sources like wikipedia are valid enough
humble mulch
Anyways
desert agate
And it supports your point
humble mulch
Please let's just drop this entire topic
exotic scarab
yeah
fervent bobcat
You'd find I didn't reply to you
I'm not talking to you Im talking to howard and that message was poorly timed
exotic scarab
so about WHO THE NINE HOSTAGES OF NIALLARE
tough quail
your mother
fervent bobcat
that msg was poorly timed!
tough quail
regal pls
strong plank
it's got jack shit to do with timing lol
desert agate
Going to Anzac Cove today
exotic scarab
for some reason I cant find a answer with google
fervent bobcat
He said I didnt cite things but also didnt cite anything either
humble mulch
And next time
No sources that are good from either sides will recive hits
strong plank
spon was the only one who posted anything with wikipedia
exotic scarab
and it seems a very odd nickname to get niall of the nine hostages
desert agate
God this is annoying
exotic scarab
only hostage I can actually tell is saint patrick (according to some sources)
desert agate
Gallipoli is cool y'all should come
fervent bobcat
such waste of life, gallipoli
exotic scarab
nah
tough quail
shoutout to the sabaton quote from babies first italian history man
strong plank
man the whole 'lol Italy surrendered' meme has kinda stained historical discourse around it, hasn't it
fervent bobcat
shoutout to the sabaton quote from babies first italian history man
wow you def outplayed me
no way I can recover from that one
desert agate
such waste of life, gallipoli
It was
desert agate
And thats why I'm here
frigid karma
anyways uh
tough quail
man the whole 'lol Italy surrendered' meme has kinda stained historical discours...
and the ocean has water in it
fervent bobcat
Italy signed peace but Musso oppsoed it
desert agate
QWERTY
frigid karma
fine
strong plank
yeah but that's too complicated for the average history textbook lol
desert agate
ITS FUCKING OVER
exotic scarab
Sulva and Sud-El-Bar were beaches in gallopli
tough quail
what are your sources
exotic scarab
one second
desert agate
Sulva and Sud-El-Bar were beaches in gallopli
Suvla, Helles, Anzac Cove were the European side landings
Plus the diversionary French landings around Canukkale
exotic scarab
fervent bobcat
@humble mulch wow looking back I see that you misread my argument
I didnt say france caught germany off guard
exotic scarab
if you dont want a wikipedia
fervent bobcat
yes.
desert agate
Adolfs forest adventure
tender monolith
cursed name for a book imo
exotic scarab
didnt they kinda predict germany would try that
humble mulch
I'm trying to read stuff about north Africa
But I will actually warn for trying to say France was caught off guard
exotic scarab
im trying to play games where I can be a bad person
humble mulch
Like please
fervent bobcat
Their whole plan of defend the maginot got broken quickly because they somehow didnt predict that germany would attack belgium again, and proceeded to get cut off, and with their army completely disorganized and in shambles, they collapsed. Sounds like being caught off guard to me
exotic scarab
im trying to find books on the history of medevial ireland and england
fervent bobcat
If France was "on guard" they would've survived the blitzkrieg
remote monolith
Their whole plan of defend the maginot got broken quickly because they somehow d...
bruh what? They expected the thrust from Belgium
humble mulch
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA220715 if anyone wants to read along
remote monolith
the entire BEF and the French's best divisions were sent to that front
humble mulch
What
fervent bobcat
that was after Belgium was already fighting the germans
desert agate
Belgium was kinda the nucleus of the French planning
remote monolith
what they didn't expect was the attack from Ardennes, which by all accounts was a risky, unproven maneuver that could lead to disaster
humble mulch
Do I actually have to send nimi to your dms with some links about the war in France or something
exotic scarab
lmao without context that sounds hilarious
fervent bobcat
bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhh
desert agate
Just find a jaba nuke
fervent bobcat
not even the impenetrable maginot line survived
it got shattered
france was very much off their guard
exotic scarab
fervent bobcat
they were trying to recreate ww1
exotic scarab
didnt the line hold off for like a pretty good time
strong plank
lmao without context that sounds hilarious
"I HATE SCHOLARLY SOURCES I HATE SCHOLARLY SOURCES"
"we have you surrounded, come out and read about France!"
fervent bobcat
didnt realize that war had changed
humble mulch
Anyways @fervent bobcat this is a verbal warning, please drop the topic now
exotic scarab
one second I will do a quick search since you got me curious
fervent bobcat
"no you cant disagree that's disrespectful!"
desert agate
humble mulch
It's not disagreeing if you're literally wrong
fervent bobcat
exotic scarab
oh according to wikipedia with a quick search
some portions of the line held out till frances surrender
humble mulch
Lmao
exotic scarab
and almost totally stopped italy
humble mulch
"Caught off guard"
fervent bobcat
so saying that France was trying to fight a war of a bygone era while also having their plans like the maginot defense get broken WASNT being off their guard?
humble mulch
desert agate
Did berci scar this channel so badly that we all became insufferable cunts?
fervent bobcat
"Caught off guard"
fr tho bro how does one be "on their guard" and proceed to lose a war in less than a month
exotic scarab
i think I missed berci
fervent bobcat
using ww1 tactics to fight the new war of movement
exotic scarab
also can this trainwreck finally end I want to read som war and peace before bed
fervent bobcat
recipe for disaster
fervent bobcat
also can this trainwreck finally end I want to read som war and peace before bed
ugh fine since you asked so nicely ill stop
exotic scarab
recipe for disaster
germany used 1812 logistics
frigid karma
repeating the same shit literally every ytber has said since 1940 eh
desert agate
A lot of mistakes were made by interwar planners
fervent bobcat
repeating the same shit literally every ytber has said since 1940 eh
ah yes, my favorite ww2 era journalistic source, YouTube.
exotic scarab
oh
frigid karma
or what
exotic scarab
oh no bonpartes at vienna
frigid karma
the history channel
remote monolith
this is from Osprey's Maginot Line book
they entirely expected an attack from Belgium, and the Maginot's entire purpose was so that they will go there instead of directly over the border
fervent bobcat
ok but I still don't know how they could've been "on their guard" if their plans fell apart from the ardennes push
remote monolith
the Line itself withstood a siege that envelops them from behind
desert agate
ok but I still don't know how they could've been "on their guard" if their plans...
Total communications breakdown
tough quail
christ alive
remote monolith
yes you did
exotic scarab
so uhh in other news
tough quail
read a book you wanker
exotic scarab
what do you all think of murats fashion sense
personally I think he was a bit too showy
fervent bobcat
read a book you wanker
uuuuuuuugggggghhhhh man why are you ppl so damn stubborn god
Literally have a library
of books from that time period
strong plank
which you've apparently never read
fervent bobcat
delicate beacon
uuuuuuuugggggghhhhh man why are you ppl so damn stubborn god
Speak for yourself. 
exotic scarab
of books from that time period
ok
then cite a book please
if its a somewhat popular ww2 book I guarntee one of the people with money here will have it
humble mulch
Literally an Osprey book says your wrong
desert agate
if its a somewhat popular ww2 book I guarntee one of the people with money here ...
you people buy books?
strong plank
I live with god knows how many books on just about anything anyone could ever want to know about war, and god knows how little I know lol
delicate beacon
~~you people buy books?~~
Dutch sources are hard to come by 
fervent bobcat
Around the Clock was one I for sure remember the title of but it was more about the air front
desert agate
fervent bobcat
mainly how the battle of britain was won
and later the axis collapse in north africa
and the innovations following the triplane era
exotic scarab
i have a overview of ww1
and all the galliant men which is about the attack on pearl harbor that i've yet to read
delicate beacon
That book sounds like it's all over the place.
tough quail
so books on uhh
fervent bobcat
However I always preferred documentaries
tough quail
nothing you're talking about
fervent bobcat
delicate beacon
However I always preferred documentaries
tough quail
da, now that i understand the mechanical peculiarities and construction methods of circa 1950s soviet tanks
fervent bobcat
no dont worry it's not history channel
exotic scarab
I get my sources from ww2 action movies thank you very much
tough quail
i now know everything about the japanese invasion of the philippines
delicate beacon
It doesn't have to be HC, wasnt even thinking about that.
Almost all documentaries are horseshi-.. utter garbage nowadays
fervent bobcat
however I did read a book about the innovations of mechanized warfare and the fall of france was mentioned extensively
now I will admit the name slipped my mind
remote monolith
so conveniently you forgot this book that you claimed that you have in your vast library
liberating you from the need of actually citing it
fervent bobcat
oh actually it's literally just called "Battle"
and it was actually about armor warfare. forgive my minor mistake
remote monolith
also back to Rommel:
what had gone wrong in this last battle, the Afrika Korps commander, Wilhelm Ritter von Thoma, felt
that Rommel deserved much of the blame. He agreed with Ludwig Crüwell that Rommel “never
worried about anything apart from his own fixed ideas.” But Rommel had other poor qualities that
had contributed to his defeat. He was cocky and overconfident. Von Thoma described the incident
that revealed this serious character flaw:```
```BURCKHARDT interpreted when that NEW ZEALAND General [Brigadier George Clifton] was taken prisoner—I’ve forgotten
his name. Field Marshal ROMMEL said: “Tell the General that the war will be over in six weeks and I shall have occupied
CAIRO and ALEXANDRIA.” BURCKHARDT told me himself that it would have been most painful for him to have to say such
a thing to this General who was standing there so pensively and had had the misfortune to be taken prisoner in the front line, which
is no disgrace. So he simply said: “You’ll find you are mistaken, Sir.” I mean later on, if he ever comes to write of his experiences,
what will he say about our appreciation of the situation and our over-confidence? Our tanks were nothing but scrap-iron. It wasn’t
a Panzer Division, it was just miserable odds-and-ends. To ALEXANDRIA, to CAIRO!```infantryman.... He took no interest ... in all the rest, that is personnel or supplies, which are the
decisive factors for the whole theatre of war.” Rommel’s reliance on the dense “Minengarten” for
protection, especially when they could not be covered by fire, “was fundamentally incorrect.”62 It
was a damning indictment of the man who had recently been von Thoma’s commander, but it was by
no means a lone criticism of Rommel. Writing soon after the war, Generalmajor von Holtzendorff felt
that Rommel’s forward command and aggression made him an excellent Kampfgruppen [combat
team] commander but “seriously impaired his efficiency as an Army commander.” And, according to
Holtzendorff, Rommel never understood how armor should be used:```attitude and his constant rejection of material and fully justified objections on the part of the Panzer commanders repeatedly caused
heavy losses in material (especially Panzers), which then jeopardized the very idea of the mission.```Battle for Africa by Glyn Harner
Alamein and the North African campaign. Shortly before his execution at Nuremberg, Keitel reflected
on Rommel’s career. During his interrogation, Keitel had expressed “unlimited admiration of
Rommel’s military achievements and courage.” While Rommel’s efforts in North Africa had resulted
in some “unexpected victories,” this talented commander’s skills had been wasted there. Keitel
wrote, “One cannot help wondering what this daring and highly-favoured tank commander would
have achieved had he been fighting with his units in the one theatre of war where Germany’s fate was
to be determined.”68 Clearly, Keitel’s delusions continued to the end of his life. Rommel and the units
he commanded in North Africa would have made no difference at all to the outcome of Germany’s
defeat on the Eastern Front.```looks like here all Keitel is saying is that Rommel wasnt meant to be in north africa
humble mulch
exotic scarab
.....
humble mulch
remote monolith
looks like here all Keitel is saying is that Rommel wasnt meant to be in north a...
which the book commented as exactly as a delusion that he held to his very end
exotic scarab
Generalmajor von Holtzendorff felt
that Rommel’s forward command and aggression made him an excellent Kampfgruppen [combat
team] commander but “seriously impaired his efficiency as an Army commander.” And, according to
Holtzendorff, Rommel never understood how armor should be used
frigid karma
remote monolith
Generalmajor von Holtzendorff felt
that Rommel’s forward command and aggression ...
exactly what we've been saying all this time
he's decent to good on the tactical level but fails badly on a strategic one
fervent bobcat
I'm not even arguing that Rommel is good! I'm just saying he's not awful!
I made this clear at the start!
Explicitly said that
frigid karma
i now know everything about the japanese invasion of the philippines
macunther had no brain, there
fervent bobcat
that's a whole new can of worms but I agree
tough quail
excellent
fervent bobcat
macc not good
frigid karma
that's all you need to understand that invasion
fervent bobcat
all he did was clean up the mess he made
and then botch korea
get relieved
the end
tough quail
macarthur is only really intelligent when it comes to getting PoWs killed
exotic scarab
that and PR
frigid karma
and framing rapes
fervent bobcat
baltic seas what
exotic scarab
welp I know nothing about ww2 generals beyond pop culture knowledge
exotic scarab
and I have work tomorrow afternoon so shimmy hate it was entertaining
cinder escarp
welp I know nothing about ww2 generals beyond pop culture knowledge
Mac Daddy more like Mac Failure amirite
fervent bobcat
cya
desert agate
Macarthur deserved a bullet not a command
Leaving his troops at Bataan was the greatest cowardice
fervent bobcat
As said all he did was clean up the mess he made
Heroes like Wainwright and Fertig get no recognition
desert agate
And then having the nerve to demand his troops keep fighting while he was safe in Melbourne
desert agate
Heroes like Wainwright and Fertig get no recognition
Blamey
cinder escarp
And then derailing half of pacfleet to go retake the Philippines to cure his terminal butthurt even though it served no strategic purpose - it was the other half of pacfleet under Nimitz that brought Japan to utter defeat
fervent bobcat
Wainwright was tortured for years and Fertig successfully turned the remnants of Mac’s army into a brutal guerrilla force
desert agate
The Philippines resistance navy was run by an Australian POW fun fact
I hate how Macarthur gets so much credit for liberating the Philippines when they basically liberated themselves
frigid karma
looks like here all Keitel is saying is that Rommel wasnt meant to be in north a...
Keitel's delusions
missed an important part there
fervent bobcat
And after letting his men be tortured and killed by the Japanese while he sat safe at home Mac proceeded to forgive Japanese war criminals
He let Kishi off the hook
The man was the East Asian himmler
I will say MacArthur fled because if he was captured by Japan it would be a massive morale hit, but I do agree that abandoning his men was indeed a cowardly move
If I recall correctly it was the US gov that told him to flee
desert agate
It was yes
And he claimed post war that he didn't want to
Which was a blatant lie
fervent bobcat
He also could’ve redeemed himself in Korea but no he fucked that one up too
desert agate
And don't even get me started on New Guinea and especially Kokoda
fervent bobcat
But in short MacArthur’s role in Asia was equivalent to that of a 5 year old breaking all the plates in the kitchen and then sweeping them up
fervent bobcat
Swept but still broken
desert agate
"Why won't the Australians attack?"
"Why won't they hold the Kokoda gap? (I don't know what the kokoda gap is)"
"Just attack lol"
delicate beacon
Fuck McAssturd
humble mulch
Finished by article
Important things to note:
RAF held air superiority and was a major problem for the Axis even after Germany sent fighters.
There was only 1 axis port and it was overburdened to shit and the Germans totally ignored Malta and wanted Egypt
Rommel is a fucking idiot and caused major problems everywhere cause I guess he can't do math or run a ledger
Due to RAF air control shipping lanes where under threat along with the only good road the Axis had
Britain fought for a purpose and reason as to them this front was Important, so their command mad sure to get them supplies
The Germans didn't care about Africa and didn't really wanna be there on top of them preping and invading Russia they couldn't focus and handle this front
Article also does a good job explaining how the British won and the doctrines used by the two
remote monolith
can you give the article to me? Wanna have a look too
humble mulch
remote monolith
ty
humble mulch
It's from the 90s tho so keep that in mind
Also yeah
The RAF fucked up Germany so bad even Romania was scared of them
tough quail
please help the shitfire hordes are dismembering our glorious luftwaffe
frigid karma
no worries camaraden we have me163 jet
i had refueling expedited by ignoring our dumbass commander's orders and having both of those trucks refuel t stoff and c stoff at once
off to the plane, byeee
wait it's not a jet
strong plank
blame the RAF for why germany lost
those bigass RAF coats aren’t just for show
tough quail
the british will never catch up to our grand advancements in aviation
this will turn the war...
excuse me what the FUCK is a meteor
strong plank
“ay bro how do you feel about certain root vegetables ”
tough quail
i love embellished yor fanart
humble mulch
Shout out to Romania making a BF-110 night fighter squadron cause they were worried the British were coming with the Russians
desert agate
Important things to note:
RAF held air superiority and was a major problem for t...
It's worth noting that between the Greece Campaign and Operation battleaxe, the number of RAF Hurricanes in North Africa was... 2
And during operation battleaxe, the Luftwaffe had superior numbers still
There was some RAAF Kitty hawks that deployed to supplement the Hurricanes which were rapidly redeployed after years fall of Greece but they were nowhere near enough to change the tide
humble mulch
Yes
The main problem more so it Germany prepping for Russia
Still need to find a better source on the air war in NA
desert agate
I have a book but I can't remember the name and it's on my pc
Which is 12000km away from me right now
It'll be a while before I can get it unfortunately
maiden citrus
i love embellished yor fanart
this meaty or sounds like a powerful hot doge
static delta
E
desert agate
Made it to Helles
static delta
Wat?
desert agate
Cape Helles
delicate beacon
Stick
spiral cedar
Their whole plan of defend the maginot got broken quickly because they somehow d...
You have this backwards, which does not help your argument. Per Air Force Magazine,
The Maginot Line, built between 1930 and 1937, was a key aspect of the strategy, blocking an advance from the east and establishing a stable front on the French-German border.
The expectation was that, if the Germans did attack, they would come charging through Belgium, as they had done in the “Schlieffen Plan” that opened World War I in 1914.
The bedrock assumption was that France would meet the German attack in Belgium.
...
The French had not been altogether wrong about German strategy. “Indeed, in the first three drafts of the German campaign plan, drafted between October 1939 and January 1940, the primary attack was against Belgium by the right wing of the German army,” said Karl-Heinz Frieser, a German historian. Germany had assembled three army groups on the Western Front: Group B in the north opposite Holland and Belgium, Group A in the center facing the Ardennes, and Group C in a holding action against the Maginot Line in the south.
Note that the entire French plan revolves around the assumption that Germany would attack through Belgium. In fact, the core reason the French defense crumbled was because the main German thrust was not through Belgium, but the Ardennes.
Lt. Gen. Heinz Guderian, Germany’s best tank officer, convinced Gen. Erich von Manstein, chief of staff of Army Group A, that he could move his panzers efficiently through the Ardennes and Manstein convinced Hitler. The primary attack would be delivered by Group A under Gen. Gerd von Rundstedt.
“The new plan was a mirror image of the Schlieffen Plan, which had been like a revolving door through which the German armies advancing through Belgium swung southeast behind the French armies marching eastward into Lorraine,” said historian Jackson. “This time the rotation operated clockwise, with the Germans swinging northwest behind the French moving into Belgium.”
The operation, known as Sichelsnitt or “Sickle Cut,” aimed to split the French army in two and sever the support lines for the forces in Belgium.
spiral cedar
so saying that France was trying to fight a war of a bygone era while also havin...
And regarding the role of the Maginot Line, per the Principles of War podcast:
https://theprinciplesofwar.com/podcast/66-overview-of-the-battle-of-france-i/
(10 May 1940, start of German invasion, there were 104 French, 22 Belgian, 13 British, and 10 Dutch divisions—149 total divisions to defend France and the Low Countries)
The main task undertaken during the winter of 1939-40 by the BEF was the construction of the Gort Line. This was essentially a continuation of the Maginot Line along the Franco-Belgian border. The Maginot Line was a significant series of fortifications along the Franco-German border, and it is one of the projects which is denigrated as a ‘white elephant.’ It absorbed a large proportion of the French defense budget which could have been better employed developing a more mobile, armored army appropriate for 1940. It has also been accused of developing a defensive mentality within the French army. Robert Doughty in The Seeds of Disaster argues that in reality, the Maginot Line performed its designated function in 1940, and that the failures of 1940 lay elsewhere. Essentially, it was a manpower-efficient means of defending a large shared border to protect regions of vital natural resources and industrial capacity, thereby permitting the concentration of divisions for maneuver operations in northeast France and Belgium. A manpower shortage relative to Germany was a major concern for the French army. The loss of major industrial regions of Alsace-Lorraine in 1870 and the northeastern France area around Loos and Lens in 1914 to Germany had been major detriments to France’s ability to wage war after 1914. France’s ability to concentrate almost 100 divisions on the Belgium border protected northeast France and meant that the next war would be found in Belgium, not France, further protecting French industry and agriculture and avoiding the destruction of the First World War.
So the Maginot Line served its intended purpose—it enabled France, with its depleted manpower relative to Germany, to shift its best and most mobile forces to northeast France for a fight in the Low Countries, while sparing the industrial heartlands of war's destruction. The Fall of France happened for several reasons, but the Maginot Line failing was not one of them—by and large, the bulk of the fortifications held until ordered to lay down their arms at the armistice.
The Maginot Line enabled France to successfully hold off German (and Italian) attacks into the French heartland until the armistice, using just 1/3 of its divisions, allowing the other 2/3 to be concentrated largely in northern France. The fact that the French failed despite the Maginot Line succeeding in its intended purpose is a reflection of the disastrous flaws in French operational plans elsewhere, not in the fortifications.
I know that people in this channel can come off as arrogant, abrasive, dismissive, and obstinate at times—but by and large, they do know their stuff. I can’t speak for any individual other than myself, but I suspect you’d get much more out of your interactions with them by being willing to stop and consider why they came to different conclusions from you, and whether you can get some of those same sources from them to enrich your library. You’re ultimately not obligated to agree with anyone else, but we can all benefit from a learning-oriented environment rather than an entrenched one where assertions are made instead of evidence
Each of us had to go through the “huh, maybe I don’t actually know everything” phase at some point in order to start learning at a deeper-than-surface level. Unfortunately some people choose to remain willfully ignorant in the long term and end up leaving, usually from moderator intervention…my hope is that we can add more positively contributing #history club members in the future, rather than the second fate.
maiden citrus
as long as people want to learn and find things interesting, there won't be much of that
desert agate
At the first Australian war grave here
Feeling incredibly emotional standing here
delicate beacon
new member accepted
I've become wary of blue names too as lately there seem to have been a few whose dogs have been killed by Hood.
desert agate
Being here seeing this terrain
Hard to believe anyone ever thought to invade here
And reading the gravestones
Hard not to cry
delicate beacon
Known unto God.
desert agate
I even found the grave of John Simpson Kirkpatrick
If there was any man who was more well known in association with Gallipoli, it would only be Attaturk himself
I've seen the boat he came ashore on 107 years ago
On display at the Victorian war memorial
maiden citrus
Sounds like you’re having a fantastic time, great pictures too
desert agate
desert agate
The French graves are on the other side
And are in total disrepair
They haven't been maintained in decades
maiden citrus
not like this
spring briar
desert agate
Just done Anzac Cove took too many pictures and have too much to say to post anything about it now
Currently at Lone Pine
static delta
I'm back with my normal name
humble mulch
Might not be the best but they publish ww2 magazines so deal with it, written by Walter S. Zapotoczny.
Reading The Italian solider in North africa 41-43 rn and so far most of the stuff matches.
Italys introduction to the war was done as to not fall behind their allies in conquest and efforts were made to Reinforce the garrisons and standing army in Libya starting around 1939. These forces used very obsolete weapon, were I'll prepared for a conflict with a legitimate military, and were lead by a man who'd crushed the Libya rebellions in the early 1930s. The Italians also at the time had an incredibly bad doctrine with poor communication and flexibility.
In 1940 without the help of allied forces, the Italian army faced the desert forces and were woefully out matched in every way but numbers. Their equipment at the time was subpar to the allies, they had tankettes vs Matildas, and their communication was less then adequate. Their doctrine also relied on attacking the greatest concentrated mass when in battle. This doctrine was utterly crused by the allies who were mote then capable at breaking their lines and attacking the rear of the poorly trained and equipped Italians.
Due to this being one of their first early war campaigns and their general lack of industrialized they weren't as prepared as they could have been. But their command had chosen this strategy because it had worked for them before in the past, but it was not something that would work going into a more mobile and mechanized war.
In August of 1940 German help was approved and sent and starting in 1941 there was a massive change in Italian equipment. Tanks, guns, and change to more concentrated mass artillery attacks. From then on the Italians where often times underestimated by the allies and made up more then 50-60% of all Axis forces in North Africa.
Rommel had at his disposal 100,000 Italian soldiers, 7,000 Italian trucks, 1,000 Italian guns, and 151 Italian aircraft.
The Italians also began fielding their own tanks and tank destroyers which were feared rightfully so by many allied tankers.
This campaign had seen the Ariete Armored Division fight as a single entity for the first time and had demonstrated that it could be a formidable force in the right circumstances. It had stopped the British 22nd Armored Brigade in its tracks from defensive positions at Bir el Gubi. It had kept the 1st South African Brigade out of the fight for extended periods simply by its presence, and it held its own in the face of considerable harassment from various British armored formations throughout the fighting. It captured a vital position from tough New Zealand troops almost without firing a shot and helped its German allies to destroy the 2nd New Zealand Division.
While the Italians by Manny are said to not be compatible to the Germans, it is important to note that a large portion of the Italian army was formerly a colonial army and many were garrison trained which can be seen as inferior to other nations at the time.
El Alamain saw the Italians bravely fight for as long as they could against the massive allied tank assault. From there they were pushed back and Rommel lost for the same reasons and then some that the Italians had lost for in the 40s.
humble mulch
eternal veldt
desert agate
maiden citrus
hit feet reveal
desert agate
humble mulch
Pretty good book, goes in depth on Italian training and conscription. The Italians were actively training with a multitude of different training camps in order to prepare troops for a new Era of combat while suffering from supply shortages
desert agate
Australian trenches at Lone Pine
More of the former battlefield
There's lots of old tunnels here
manic latch
humble mulch
So north africa is a shitty desert
So rations and stuff were horrible and with the Axis forces not rotating out of combat many stayed on very bad rations which were cut alongside very poor water supply. So sickness and things like dysentery were super high and due to everything their field hospitals couldn't help everyone. But according to hospitals numbers and all that jazz the Italians were either better fit for acclimating to what they were going through, or weren't allowed to be hospitalized, cause there numbers are much lower then the than their German counterparts
Chad Aussie trenches
desert agate
The Turkish trenches are in that direction, visible is sniper Ridge. The Turkish trench line was destroyed by a fire in the 90s
The medevac trail
Overlooking the battlefield from behind the medevac trail
humble mulch
Truly is a beautiful area, and a good monument in a sense to those who'd lived, fought, and died there. There efforts left a mark in more ways then 1
"Italian bad"
hate how I can't copy paste with scribd for books but I understand the legal reasons why
desert agate
Of the 9 Victoria crosses awarded at Gallipoli, 7 were awarded where I stand now, the battlefields of Lone Pine
somber knoll
https://youtu.be/jCXbl9LIt7U I guess there is one thing the Frenchies and Italians have in common 
humble mulch
Made me laugh
gilded girder
Escapes POW camp
Climbs mount Kenya
Plants Italian flag
Goes back down
Refuses to elaborate
Returns to POW camp
desert agate
Leaving Gallipoli now
There's so much more I want to see there but I'm out of time now. I'll come back one day though
tender monolith
good pics!
ivory ridge
chilly osprey
Nice photos Spon
cinder escarp
Freccia is alright I guess
ivory ridge
this isnt the freccia, this is before
it's a prototype closer to the centauro that then led to the freccia
cinder escarp
Ah, from a distance I couldn't tell and I am indeed aware that the Freccia is basically a V2 of the platform
ivory ridge
they are probably saving the actual freccia for whenever they decide how much they want Spikes to ruin the game
manic latch
Chad T-34 
manic latch
https://twitter.com/KrypTanko/status/1528865693558784000
Americans can't fit inside however
manic latch
Only malnourished conscripts can, which fits 1940s USSR very well
Indeed. They are strong enough to beat well fed Germans
They couldn't even starve the Soviets in time during Siege of Leningrad
fervent bobcat
Each of us had to go through the “huh, maybe I don’t actually know everything” p...
You make a good point
Thank you
remote monolith
Each of us had to go through the “huh, maybe I don’t actually know everything” p...
@humble mulch perhaps this should be pinned in this channel? This does encapsulate the #history experience for beginners
manic latch
exotic scarab
oh heres something I just learned
you know why the biritsh went to lexington and concord to take weapons from the miltia because they stole a cannon
ivory ridge
exotic scarab
execpt thats false
a quick wikipedia search says the first ship to be named a destroyer came in the 1890s
manic latch
What's a Brig then 
ivory ridge
What's a Brig then <:hmm:886726902449045534>
the comment right below
manic latch
the comment right below
manic latch
is it Denmark Strait day
fierce sparrow
spiral cedar
Just remember this one stat
Bismarck achieved a 2% hit rate on HMS Hood, and HMS Prince of Wales achieved a 5% hit rate on Bismarck, during the Battle of the Denmark Strait
alpine onyx
With how the expected hit rate per salvo increases over time and PoW firing way more salvos at Bismarck than latter did at Hood, it's not a stat I'd look at in isolation
fervent bobcat
-1000 luck
spiral cedar
But it’s a funny one
alpine onyx
It is, tho I felt like the asterisk might be necessary or I'll hear someone blindly ripping it out of context during next weeks Drydock
spiral cedar
Good thinking
According to Marco Santarini in his book, Bismarck and Hood: The Battle of the Denmark Strait:
Bismarck fired 6 salvos of 8 rounds each at Hood from 0556-0601, and Prinz Eugen fired 6 salvos of 8 rounds each at Hood from 0556-0559. Of these, Bismarck scored (probably*) 1 hit out of 48 rounds, and Prinz Eugen scored 1 hit out of 48 rounds.
Bismarck fired 5 full and 3 partial salvos at Prince of Wales from 0602-0609, and Prinz Eugen fired 16 full and 1 partial salvos at Prince of Wales from 0600-0609. Of these, Bismarck scored (probably**) 4 hits out of 45 rounds, and Prinz Eugen scored (probably**) 3 hits out of 128 rounds.
Hood fired salvos at Prinz Eugen from 0553-0601, and Prince of Wales fired 21 salvos at Bismarck from 0553 to 0604. Of these, Hood scored 0 hits out of an unknown number of rounds, and Prince of Wales scored 3 hits out of 59 rounds.
*It is possible, though unlikely, that Bismarck scored two hits on her fifth, killing salvo.
**There is debate over the caliber of one of the seven hits; it is equally possible that Bismarck scored 3 hits and Prinz Eugen scored 4 hits on Prince of Wales.
Here’s the full thing
manic latch
According to Marco Santarini in his book, *Bismarck and Hood: The Battle of the ...
Why did Wales ran away later
Her malfunction were that bad?
spiral cedar
Yes
Note how many shells per salvo
21 salvos but only 59 shells?
2.8 shells per salvo on average
Most of that is when heading towards or away from the fight, but those are still nominally 4-6 guns intended to be firing per salvo
manic latch
Why Bismarck didn't chase her. Given superior speed and this advantage
alpine onyx
That's odd, it contradicts the avks instructions
spiral cedar
Partially tactical, partially operational
alpine onyx
I'll look into some diaries later, if I find stuff I'll dare to @
Tho can't exclude the 1AO defying the doctrine
spiral cedar
Talking split salvo firing?
alpine onyx
Yesn't
spiral cedar
Partially tactical, partially operational
The tactical reason being that Eugen picked up sounds on her hydrophones that sounded like (but were not, most likely) torpedoes, which caused the Germans to turn away to evade, leading to the gap widening. The operational reason was that risking further damage to fight ships that were not the objective was questionable
alpine onyx
Rangefinding, for which more than four rounds per salvo were deemed harmful
spiral cedar
The salvos were indeed fired in 4s
But two half-salvos in quick succession is 1 full salvo
manic latch
spiral cedar
So yes, each particular group was of 4 shells
But 2 groups in close temporal proximity was still a single full-salvo equivalent
desert agate
i got sunburnt at gallipoli does this technically make me a casualty?
spring briar
looks at the existence of black people as a successful mutation to be resistant to the sun
HMMM
delicate beacon
Most of that is when heading towards or away from the fight, but those are still...
And people were complaing about my salvo of 4 
spiral cedar
From Rechberg’s Battleship Bismarck: A Survivor's Story
Lindemann’s permission for us to open fire was immediately followed by our first heavy salvo. The Bismarck was in action, and the rumble of her gunfire could be heard as far away as Reykjavik, the capital of Iceland. I heard Schneider order the first salvo and heard his observation on the fall of the shot, “short.” He corrected the range and deflection, then ordered a 400-meter bracket. The long salvo he described as “over,” the base salvo as “straddling,” and immediately ordered, “Full salvos good rapid.” He had thus laid his battery squarely on target at the very outset of the engagement.
The gunnery officer could order a “test shoot,” to find the range, or he could order a series of full or partial salvos. Rather than waiting to spot each splash between salvos of a “test shoot,” he could use a “bracket” to find the target. A “bracketing group” consisted of three salvos separated by a uniform range, usually 400 meters, and fired so rapidly that they were all in the air at the same time. On the Bismarck it was customary to fire “bracketing groups” and, with the aid of our high-resolution optical range finders, we usually succeeded in boxing or straddling the target on the first fall of shot. The gunnery officer was aided in spotting the fall of shot by one of the gunnery-computer rooms, which signaled him by buzzer when the calculated time of projectile flight had expired.
Three salvos, technically
Presumably 2-long, 4-base, 2-short
But they’re all in the air at the same time
So collectively one full salvo
Note “first fall of shot”
A bracketing group is spaced closely temporally
So it’s imo very reasonable to consider it all one full salvo collectively
manic latch
spiral cedar
Once the range and bearing had been found, the gunnery officer in control would order, “Good rapid.” He could choose to fire full salvos of all eight guns or partial, four-gun salvos fore and aft. In either case, the “firing for effect” was as rapid as possible.
desert agate
not the channel dude
remote monolith
not the right place, although yes
desert agate
and one of the lurking mods has a Russia flag in their bio if you catch my drift
ivory ridge
he lived in russia for the last 30 years apparently
desert agate
so let's take this elsewhere
remote monolith
cough I my me I dropped this link, how clumsy I am
https://twitter.com/RmcVermeulen/status/1529093011908460544?t=L4FZjOcCVXpDBUzUb9nF0w&s=19
Twitter
oh its history related, what a coincidence
more seriously, this is hoped to lead into a reexamination of how the Netherlands colonial history is perceived domestically
desert agate
Dutch people being tolerant to others for most of their independent history
Vs
Dutch people when they see an Indonesian
remote monolith
specifically in things like acknowledging Indonesia has been independent since 1945, rather than in 1949
plus recognizing the systematic and brutal methods employed by Dutch forces during Independence War
remote monolith
no unfortunately, Dutch and Indonesian only. I'll have to manually translate it tomorrow if anyone is interested
spiral cedar
You can summarize the main points later maybe?
somber knoll
specifically in things like acknowledging Indonesia has been independent since 1...
That just means it pretty much annuls the Konferensi Meja Bundar aka the Hague conference 
spiral cedar
Since the entire thing sounds like a lot of work
remote monolith
You can summarize the main points later maybe?
will do
spiral cedar
jovial elm
not the right channel for this <:MurmSleep:951223023493603410>
Which channel?
somber knoll
Can I have the Indonesian link?
spiral cedar
Oof
somber knoll
plus recognizing the systematic and brutal methods employed by Dutch forces duri...
also Westerling moment
remote monolith
That just means it pretty much annuls the Konferensi Meja Bundar aka the Hague c...
not really no, it means that rather than recognizing the independence as being given by the Dutch, Indonesia declared its own separation from the Dutch colonial empire as per the 1945 declaration instead of as part of RIS
remote monolith
Can I have the Indonesian link?
here ya go, the Historia link
https://twitter.com/historia_id/status/1529064983094472705?t=kLio2k5KRR3WdsUdsTu98A&s=19
Twitter
remote monolith
_also Westerling moment_
yep, one of many infamous ones
somber knoll
Oh Historia
remote monolith
although some older people who lived through the period would argue that that Dutch armed forces at times brings a measure of stability in volatile regions, which holds true for at least West Java in the wake of DI/TII appearing from late 40s
somber knoll
not really no, it means that rather than recognizing the independence as being g...
kinda ironic when you realize that at the time, some of the Dutch officials were more than happy to just let it go.
somber knoll
although some older people who lived through the period would argue that that Du...
At that time some of the KNIL commandos even helped *fighting the bloody 48 Semaun and Darsono uprising, aka the first PKI
delicate beacon
kinda ironic when you realize that at the time, some of the Dutch officials were...
There was a very left-leaning government for most of the interbellum and the extremer factions really hated colonialism.
remote monolith
At that time some of the KNIL commandos even helped *fighting the bloody 48 Sema...
I don't deny that the Dutch Armed Forces committed multiple attempts to topple thw Indonesian government at the time, I simply pointing out that in certain cases they do help in preventing rogue revolutionary bands from ransacking local communities where the national government were unable to provide adequate assistance. The Revolutionary period was highly chaotic, and there were many backlash against the upper crust of society over what was thought as collaborationism with invaders. This in turn balloons to total societal collapse marked by massacres of the upper class, their family and their staff for a number of reasons
somber knoll
There was a very left-leaning government for most of the interbellum and the ext...
So I heard
remote monolith
this collapse happened to the Langkat Sultanate, local Priangan small nobles, and even to a certain extent Central Java where Surakarta was toppled
obviously none of this excuse the 2 attempts to reassert colonial control, the rampant brutality and such, but it does provide another dimension to this chaotic period
delicate beacon
I've always felt conflicted about Indonesian history post 1945. It's drilled into me that we were the bad guys doing quite a bunch of warcrimes and in the wrong. But it didn't go into much detail and focused more on world politics at the time (for somewhat obvious reasons).
But from my own studies Indonesia was quite a multicultural society with a very diverse culture. And suddenly there's an ultra nationalist one-people's type of ordeal. And I haven't found much of the bad stuff in my area of research (1900 - 1945), though this could be because I'm reading a one sided argument and the focus on KM instead of the KNIL.
I kinda just left it at "both sides were lunatics" and blocked the whole post-1945 topic since. Fearing for partiallity in what I would come across.
alpine onyx
@spiral cedar The diary isn't all that helpful regarding salvo plots so imma leave it at that, tho have some talk on hits HMS Hood was likely to have received as compensation
remote monolith
I've always felt conflicted about Indonesian history post 1945. It's drilled int...
the period was understandably, full of black marks for either side, which contributed to the lack of serious historiographical work over it from both governments
although with the current upheaval hopefully things will change
somber knoll
I don't deny that the Dutch Armed Forces committed multiple attempts to topple t...
btw, I mean helping the TKR (at that time) extinguishing the uprisings. As far as I can tell, before the legendary Bernardus Visser was called upon to form the present day Kopassus, he was fighting in East Java after his KNIL battalion didn't really have any choice when they knew they couldn't go home anymore.
The early 4 years were pretty much in dissaray, can't agree more, though the toppling of the remaining local sultanate (or anything remotely considered a semi-sovereign) with the exception of perhaps Jogjakarta was more than just political.
alpine onyx
From "THE SINKING OF H.M.S. HOOD An examination of the timing of her fatal hit Dr. Paul Cadogan May 2014" a mention that Eugen (she'd be the one who makes the most sense here, alternatively a 15cm projectile from Bismarck which I'd find rather unlikely ) probably scored a second hit on HoodA third and very likely possibility is that of the intervention of battle damage: Able Seaman Bob Tilburn, Hood survivor, who was in a position to see, reported that shortly before the final explosion, Hood received a hit at the base of her forward superstructure that killed scores of men sheltering there16. He did not report this in his Board of Inquiry testimony, but apparently told the story after the fact. Ordinary Signalman Ted Briggs on Hood’s compass platform saw a flash of flame shoot around outside the compass platform which he equated with the flash of the final explosion, when he was flung off his feet for a second time. He also reported hearing a “wild cacophony of voices” through the voice pipes and thought he heard his “oppo” signalman Ron Bell who was on the Flag Deck below, calling for help12. An aerial observer aboard a Sunderland aircraft that witnessed the battle described Hood as being on fire in two places – the boat deck aft and at the base of the bridge4.
remote monolith
btw, I mean helping the TKR (at that time) extinguishing the uprisings. As far a...
it was indeed more than that, local nobles were perceived as collaborators that benefitted from colonialism over the small people, thus they became easy pickings for roused citizens, which ballooned into massacres of even women and children of said nobles
even nobles that weren't sympathetic to the Dutch and are pro-republic weren't safe from violence
somber knoll
I've always felt conflicted about Indonesian history post 1945. It's drilled int...
iirc the ultra-nationalist ones were not even affiliated with the already established ones (even the ones who made the Youth Congress of 1928 happened) and it was a bit of a out of context problem at the time
remote monolith
I'll discuss this later because it's nearly 2 AM and I'm supposed to meet my thesis lector on the morning, bye all
somber knoll
Skripsi kah? 
remote monolith
Skripsi kah? <:AkagiLUL:531988392699887616>
tau aja gan wkwkwkw
delicate beacon
it was indeed more than that, local nobles were perceived as collaborators that ...
From reading Bussemaker this seemed to stem from an educational problem.
The Dutch invested mostly into sanitation and infrastructure but not in education or literacy, causing the lower class to maintain its position whilst the population skyrocket out of the Dutch control. Meanwhile, the literate nobility was the only one to reap any benefits.
somber knoll
tau aja gan wkwkwkw
pernah maseh pengen sih nerusin ke tesis S2 cuman ora hepeng 
delicate beacon
Are you guys plotting behind my back?
alpine onyx
From the same article, a potential second hit by Bisko from the third salvo that straddled Hood
source of the hit that started the fire on the boat deck, but may in fact have put a shell through
the battle cruiser’s spotting top (suggested by survivor testimony that “bits” or “bodies” fell
from it when the salvo subsequent to the one causing the boat deck hit arrived2,12).```
somber knoll
From reading Bussemaker this seemed to stem from an educational problem.
The Dut...
part of the reason of it was not just literacy, but also the system itself: as much the more established haves can get the Dutch education, the lower classes either trapped in a very basic literacy, nothing at-all, or the pre-colonial Turkish-India system (read: localized Islamic education system)
Nah, I'm just asking if he's working on his Bachelor's thesis (which he does btw) and me wondering if I can continue my studies to Master's if not for the shitty economy (which forces me to do menial jobs at my shop rather than doing a government work that I was supposed to do last year, which pretty much made my English degree wasted)
ivory ridge
spring briar
Toulon 
frigid karma
French CBs are tasty
spring briar
tasty as in?
ivory ridge
i want to take a chunk of their hull and bite it
spring briar
spring briar
enjoy the chromium
spring briar
it will make you very red and viscous on the inside
alpine onyx
I can go with the flow then
spring briar
Thanks kremlin very cool
tough quail
that looks so weirdly fake from above
spring briar
60s fire moment
More than enough time to do your mom
manic latch
I prefer Type 003
Shame Japan can't build their own nuclear CV
They can actually try to pull Ulyanovsk trick however
Aircraft carrying cruiser
Or battlecruiser given size of Ulyanovsk
desert agate
dont ask japan what its doing with all that fissile nuclear material it has sitting around
manic latch
which france
Yes
jovial elm
I think I have been conditioned into a stress response when hearing malenias theme
spring briar
Foul tarnished
fleet summit
Never tried french food
or seen french culture
All I know is french and Italian don't go well
spring briar
rapid junco
Well
What i've tried is not that French at all
But it was brought by a Frenchmen
A Petit Gateau
delicate beacon
Een taartje 
manic latch
All I know is french and Italian don't go well
Indeed
frigid karma
Snails are tasty
manic latch
I tried Italian food once
Sadly it had Carpaccio
I have personal hate for that thing sorry
maiden citrus
but does it have, hot dog
maiden citrus
it do then, it do
rapid junco
Firing the first SEACAT of the Brazilian Navy
spiral cedar
Lol
humble mulch
Sorry for the late pin, thought it was the magot posting and I didn’t have the time to start a “Previouse discussion/misconceptions” pin with the message links
frigid karma
I have 44% of this channel's pins
Despite making up 0.19% of the channel's members, Jabajabajebejebe has 44% of the channel's pins
spiral cedar
Sounds about right
rapid junco
oblique glen
Fellas fellas
Howitzers have a wide range of life-saving uses, including clearing debris from an avalanche, clearing tree stumps, fighting forest fires and structural fires, breaching structures during hostage crises or similar scenarios, as well as recreational and self-defense purposes
tribal mortar
Huh.
tribal mortar
Never thought of using a cannon as a piece of rescue equipment.
tribal mortar
who the hell uses howitzers in a hostage crisis
Americans.
oblique glen
kek
oblique glen
Never thought of using a cannon as a piece of rescue equipment.
Think about it
You gotta get to an isolated derailed railcar to rescue people
There's a bunch of debris blocking your path
Every second counts and you don't have time to waste moving the mess with a crane
Jusr blast it outta the way!
Yes you can put fires out with explosives
Swedes did it once
tribal mortar
Yes you can put fires out with explosives
The Soviets put out a gas fire with a nuke, so I'd be inclined to agree.
dapper parcel
You'll just ends up with more debris...
oblique glen
Smaller, easier to deal with debris
It's easier to drive a 40,000lb fire enginr over a bunch of little rocks than a massive boulder
dapper parcel
and you can do it more precisely and safely with normal breaching charges anyway
oblique glen
Those take time to set up and put men in harm's way
tribal mortar
How does getting a cannon on site faster than getting breaching charges?
tough quail
it's a very niche thing but it's tangibly useful in a pinch
oblique glen
Need an instant fireline? Artillery
Got a forest fire you can't get men to? Artillery
tribal mortar
I just thought of new ammunition.
tough quail
iirc there was a bunch of use of direct fire mortars to just smash through blocked doors in the reichstag
oblique glen
Yep
tribal mortar
Instead of whatever is used for HE-shells, put extinguishing foam.
oblique glen
Wasn't there a sherman with a howitzer used to just blow open a door on the reichstag?
Airburst fire retardant shells
dapper parcel
Instead of whatever is used for HE-shells, put extinguishing foam.
Chinese's already doing that
oblique glen
also
Police departments could ger use out of it
Such as combating gang warfare or dealing with dangerous crackhouses
Got an area entirely controlled by gangs? Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition
tribal mortar
The more than man talks, the more I agree.
oblique glen
got a boobytrapped crackhouse with no human life inb harm's way? Police 3inch howitzer
frigid karma
anyhoo
tough quail
here you start running into the issue of uh
tribal mortar
i'm surprised your name is allowed in this server
Who?
frigid karma
at that point that's not really hostage situations
tough quail
people getting real worried about improper usage
strong plank
Don’t they already use explosives to put out fires on places like oil rigs?
oblique glen
true
tough quail
like you're entirely correct, that would work
oblique glen
Don’t they already use explosives to put out fires on places like oil rigs?
Oil rigs? do not
oblique glen
Military firing ranges? Yes
oblique glen
it's just not every police force is, you know
Yeah
strong plank
damn, mythbusters lied to me
frigid karma
Don’t they already use explosives to put out fires on places like oil rigs?
You wanna put out an oil fire, Sir, you set off a bigger explosion right next to it. Sucks away the oxygen. Snuffs the flame.
couldn't resist
tough quail
succ
strong plank
no but I thought they used the shockwave or something to extinguish fires on oil rigs
tribal mortar
Americans are crazy yet get decent results.
strong plank
maybe that’s why we get so many oil spills
oblique glen
In states like Colorado and Alaska the DOT actually has howitzers for avalanche control
strong plank
we keep detonating the platform
tough quail
yeah out of all of these the like
tribal mortar
In states like Colorado and Alaska the DOT actually has howitzers for avalanche ...
That is both concerning yet highly impressive at the same time.
dapper parcel
I'll just throw any claim that "explosives" sucks away oxygen in the BS dumpster fire.
It's the defining characteristics that explosives carry their own oxidizers and does not use environmental oxygen
oblique glen
yewh
Explosives just blow the fire out
Like blowing out a candle
And incinerates the fuel
Anyways I believe the fire departmenr should have helicopters armed with Zuni rocketpods a
tribal mortar
Okay, now that's a bit far.
oblique glen
Imagine seeing an F-16 with OCFD markings kek
oblique glen
Okay, now that's a bit far.
Half joking half serious
tribal mortar
What's OCFD?
oblique glen
They could fly over a designated area to create a fireline
strong plank
Imagine fleeing a forest fire, only to see the national guard roll up in apaches
oblique glen
Orange County Fire Department
tribal mortar
Oh
tough quail
with creativity you could probably fit three of these on a fire truck
frigid karma
hyped
tough quail
just saying
oblique glen
with creativity you could probably fit three of these on a fire truck
Yeah
tribal mortar
with creativity you could probably fit three of these on a fire truck
Let's try 5.
tough quail
my man
oblique glen
Firefighter MLRS would unironically be a good idea for bush fires
You could create firelines without putting men in harm's way
tough quail
the spiciest australian army
frigid karma
i mean
tribal mortar
Just "borrow" those Chinese shells full of extinguishing foam.
frigid karma
MLRS might start more fires
oblique glen
MLRS might start more fires
thats when you use more
Howitzers would work better though since there isnt any fuel to combust
Unlike a rocket
oblique glen
regular HE
tough quail
if your local fire department doesn't have a full rocket battalion on hand you need to git gud
oblique glen
yes
strong plank
we went from using aircraft to cause massive fires to using them to stop them
oblique glen
kek
strong plank
horse if you don't already have air superiority over the fires you've severely fucked up
oblique glen
imagine being a bear running from a forest fire only to get passed by a bright red M107 with blaring sirens and flashing lights
tough quail
the birds are on fire and crashing into the fire department
oblique glen
fire engine howitzers 
tough quail
war has changed
strong plank
>>>>>>>the birds are on fire and crashing into the fire department
that's what phalanx is for
oblique glen
sets landmines for the fire
tough quail
otjhgfhf
heat activated landmines
da
genius
bushfire spreads to it and wham bam kablam
spiral cedar
How about giant water towers filled with fire retardant and mounted on wooden stilts
When the fire burns through the wood, it collapses and releases the fire retardant
tough quail
we're doing it
oblique glen
kek yeah
spiral cedar
"We're fire fighters, not fire negotiators"
oblique glen
kek
humble mulch
Gotta make sure their navy has those Fire fighter barges with flame throwers
gilded girder
Gotta make sure their navy has those Fire fighter barges with flame throwers
The existence of greek fire implies the existence of greek water
strong plank
olive oil
humble mulch
oblique glen
kek
strong plank
ooh Operations Room did a vid on Cape Esperance
strong plank
M60 in smash brothers?
hushed saffron
Ah yes. The secret to American tank superiority.
maiden citrus
monster hunter but your weapon is tank
static delta
Huh
chilly flower
monster hunter but your weapon is tank
I mean...
Have you seen the Tigrex light bowgun?
It came back in Rise too
maiden citrus
I'm more of a flammenkanone connoisseur
humble mulch
Found a cool looking livery for Romanian HE-111s
The aircraft was flown by Ion Profir. Ion Profir was, perhaps, the best Romanian bomber pilot, in WW2. He flew a He 111H-3 from the first to the last day of the war. He took part in the Axis campaigns at Basarabia, Odessa and most of all, Stalingrad. He used a new bomber plane fighting technique, turning his heavy He 111 toward the fighters that attacked him, and so making them disengage the fight in order to avoid collision. After the war he managed to escape from communist Romania, with a stolen plane to Turkey. He died in Paris, sad as he saw the world not paying him the respect he deserved.
photo of said pilots plane, and model based off of it. Note that color shading is a bitch, the brown historical wouldn't have been as reddish and the green may be darker. This is more akin to German splinter camo and differs greatly from the traditional HE-111 camo as Romanians tended to make everything look the same or be all green with some acceptions mainly with fighters.
static delta
I agree
dusty kraken
I mean...
Have you seen the Tigrex light bowgun?
Is this literally just a tiger 2 flipped on its side
remote monolith
From reading Bussemaker this seemed to stem from an educational problem.
The Dut...
continuing from this, you're very correct
contemporary documents I found from local municipalities revealed that Dutch public projects stressed building on things that involved the expansion of government instances, railways to accommodate economical needs, and sanitation projects like cleaner housing complex
while not necessarily bad, by comparison schools are highly limited for locals
the upper crust and Dutchmen can go to either the *Hogere Burger School * for the very top, or the Hollande Inlandsche School for government workers and upper-midclass natives, while the vast majority of the low classes only get very basic literacy and counting educations in what's colloquially called as "Sekolah Ongko Loro"(number two schools, referring to their low level of educational content)
this pretty much means many of Indonesia's earliest figures were disproportionately nobility or middle-upper class in nature
ivory ridge
dusty kraken
where french navy snail
static delta
wont be coming
manic latch
https://warthunder.com/en/news/7699-development-sms-bayern-a-state-at-war-en
Tfw Hood lost her chance to have the largest guns in game
Since it's now equal to Bayern
So one of largest now
spring briar
381mm > 380mm
manic latch
Wait..
Alright I am wondering
Why Germans used 380 while Italians used 381
While French also used 380
So what's wrong with Italians choosing British style?
static delta
Cuz logic
ivory ridge
So what's wrong with Italians choosing British style? <:hmm:886726902449045534>
Look how the companies that made italian guns were called in the 10s and 20s
chilly osprey
Most Italian gun calibers tended to just continue using exact measurements for imperial systems even while using metric figures
It's only new calibers that go off in their own direction
manic latch
Most Italian gun calibers tended to just continue using exact measurements for i...
Oh
chilly osprey
For the most part, Italian gun design was influenced by British and French manufacturing
chilly osprey
Shells and fuses tend to be much more a mix of British and German influence
spring briar
actually
this was a real problem for Spain
as Spain only got the hand me down shells
and thus retained faulty british shells for years after the 1920's
chilly osprey
Also, while I'm here, Richy & @alpine onyx - do either of you happen to have any measurements for the thickness of the AP caps on the German 38cm APC? Those used on the SK C/34
spring briar
sirene might have the official plans
chilly osprey
Thanks
spring briar
do you need the thicknesses for any other shells or just the german ones??
chilly osprey
I was only really looking for the comparsion for the German 380mm, though if you've already got measurements for the French 380mm beyond what John Jordan gives that would be pretty cool too.
dapper parcel
cap thickness is quite the weird metrics to compare tho 
chilly osprey
It is
spring briar
it's a weird metric since if you go by that the french cap is thicker than the USN cap
no cap
chilly osprey
But in the absence of weight figures
spring briar
hell, I've seen mentions of shells that defy my wildest imagination
like a 305mm shell being modelled exactly like that on Richelieu and being used in Condorcet to test chamber pressures
making Condorcet the most roided Pre-dreadnought ever
not like she wasn't already being a Danton and all
but you know
alpine onyx
but if Gkds is to be believed the proportions are basically the same
alpine onyx
I mean
alpine onyx
their general proportions they give in their drawing for body curvature, shell weight and cap weight match those in the drawing almost perfectly
spring briar
I don't mean infamous in that way
alpine onyx
why would I give something to the Dutch, when I could also just take some of your cuties
dapper parcel
uh wait what? shells for 20cm directly scaled up to 38cm? proportionally linear?
dapper parcel
I mean, material properties doesn't scale linearly and I'd think Germans of all nations would account for that
delicate beacon
I thought we were Germans?
alpine onyx
it's an almost static shell design, which is why you have some basic formulas that will generate near perfect values for each caliber
alpine onyx
like you can always assume that shell to weight 14.6 x [diameter in cm]^3 in g
dapper parcel
don't tell me they assume proportionally same depth of hardening or something like that
alpine onyx
that I don't know
delicate beacon
if IvS is a German company, why do the Dutch have all the blueprints in their archives? 
alpine onyx
Mailbox company
dapper parcel
laughs in Bofors
desert agate
I know I was joking
delicate beacon
But seriously.
spring briar
don't tell me they assume proportionally same depth of hardening or something li...
german AP caps were through hardened and I'm not sure if they get softer near the attachment points
delicate beacon
Germany raided the entire country for stuff
and they have nothing in their archives
where the fuck is it
spring briar
in the same place where french shell plans are
delicate beacon
Russia?
spring briar
the dark web
alpine onyx
Sacrifice your first born and you might get stuff
chilly osprey
So, correct me if I'm wrong here, but if the 20.3cm shell has a shell cap that, at the nose, is 53mm thick, then the 380mm should have a 99.2mm thick cap at that same point?'
dapper parcel
the dark web
I still often laughs at the oh so often claims that some random dude found Japanese ship plans on their gramps work table drawer or something only found recently. And instead of donating to the library they only show the plan to select few peoples.
I mean, yeah sure...
dapper parcel
Just how often you find something like this
spring briar
GAIJIN!
dapper parcel
All the drawings in "Mechanics of Japanese Warships" are basically private
delicate beacon
Because the shell was to simple to manufacter
And it's German
so they had to bring it up to standard
dapper parcel
that has to be repro right?
spring briar
it isn't
dapper parcel
or go/no-go gauge
dapper parcel
how the fuze setting is done again?
dapper parcel
spring briar
glowworm is a cutie
chilly osprey
Trying to measure it relative to the length of the rest of the shell is getting me a cap thickness in the range of 99 to 105mm. Can anyone double check for me on that?
tribal mortar
That's a difference.
delicate beacon
spring briar
subtle prawn
Three years ago, we saw how the Third Republic made way for the Vichy government of Marshal Philippe Pétain. Although German forces have been occupying the Vichy territory since Case Anton last November, the Vichy government remains in administrative control.
It allows the Vichy government to grind an ax with those who they perceive to be responsible for the defeat of 1940: the left-wing parties of the Popular Front who were in power at the time of the invasion. Using a trial, they want to put the blame for France's defeat on the Popular Front of 1936-1939. The German authorities support the trial as well, hoping that it will shift the blame for the outbreak of the war itself to France.
The defendants are former prime ministers Léon Blum, Édouard Daladier, Paul Reynaud, former commander-in-chief Maurice Gamelin, former minister of the air force Guy la Chambre, former Controller-General of Army Administration Robert Jacomet, and former Minister of the Interior Georges Mandel. However, the trial mostly centers around Blum and Daladier.
The trial begins in February 1942 before the Supreme Court of Justice, which is to 'judge whether the former ministers, or their immediate subordinates, had betrayed the duties of their offices by way of acts which contributed to the transition from a state of peace to a state of war before September 1939, and which after that date worsened the consequences of the situation thus created.'
From the get-go, the trial is an embarrassing affair for the Vichy prosecutors. A trained lawyer, Blum puts up an impressive defense that is praised by media around the world, showing that it was the governments before the Popular Front that actually cut down on military expenditures. Seeing the trial turn into a humiliation for the Vichy administration, the Germans pressure Pétain to suspend the trial, which he does in April 1942, until it formally concludes today.
Photo: Leon Blum (left) and Max Dormoy in Vichy, July 1940.
Source: Unknown.```
jovial elm
I find it funny how many people think that rule britania is the anthem of the royal navy
It is interesting how the transom stern was present all the way back on the G3 class BC
Agreed but it wasn't present on the KGV class
Also TBF it isn't only about length
Yeah ditto, was kinda hoping somebody here would know
I am also curious why the KGV didn't use a nelrod style layout
A common thing people seem to miss is that it isn't just about armor
delicate beacon
Wasn't it used to get the hull form of a longer ship without actually increasing length?
jovial elm
It also allows for far more efficient delivery of power
jovial elm
It also allows for far more efficient delivery of power
The ABC layout I mean
jovial elm
Wasn't it used to get the hull form of a longer ship without actually increasing...
It had a hydrodynamic effect that allowed the water behind it to essentially push the ship forward, allowing for greater SHP efficiency
Ah fairs
The ABC turret layout also increased engine efficiency
jovial elm
Yes
Winky face
I think I have successfully conditioned myself into a stress response when I hear malenias theme lol, it just came on and I felt dread
rapid junco
I find it funny how many people think that rule britania is the anthem of the ro...
Never saw someone saying that though
spiral cedar
I am also curious why the KGV didn't use a nelrod style layout
Weight savings didn't seem worth giving up rear firepower
Also risk of one hit knocking out multiple turret magazines too close together
jovial elm
Also risk of one hit knocking out multiple turret magazines too close together
That is true but once a single magazine is hit it is already kinda game aver
over
spiral cedar
Not necessarily
jovial elm
Don't bring up lion
spiral cedar
How about Bismarck