history

[desert agate]

Ships from the First World War
Crazy how they had a whole ass event about how this was a thing and how cool it could be with some of the best ships the game ever had and then just never touched on it again

[gaunt owl]

10th anniv will be the great shift, trust 🙏

[gaunt owl]

missed opportunity for HMS Dreadnought

[desert agate]

Year 10 of pretending the Commonwealth doesn't exist

[gaunt owl]

probably one of the most recognizable ships in the history of naval warfare, missed opportunity to NOT add her

[mental tapir]

Well iirc it wasn't well received at the time, what with the accusations of IB bias and mistranslated event lore

[gaunt owl]

her and Texas, EN will go wild with Texas

[mental tapir]

So Manjuu would be hesitant to make another event like it

Also probably didn't make that much in terms of revenue I think

[desert agate]

The EN Lore community mostly recieved it well from memory, but it's been a few years

[desert agate]

Not enough goonbait

[eternal veldt]

The plain truth is that Manjuu is scraping the bottom of the barrel for anything Germany related because all of its capital ships were implemented early in the game - a situation not unlike another shipgirl game.

[gaunt owl]

to end the convo here, if CN bros (the main wallet) are not satisfied with something, manjuu will probably hesitate on doing it again

[mental tapir]

**they received their translated version of CN's story well

[gaunt owl]

please manjuu more fletcher class 🙏

[eternal veldt]

and now we are on Plan Z Ship X because that's all the modern ships that could be done.

[desert agate]

I think at the time there was a lore server member who played on CN but again many years ago and also I don't really give a shit

[gaunt owl]

Gearing 🙏

alr wrap it

[mental tapir]

Anyways history
https://youtu.be/IBSZyoASkgU

[eternal veldt]

Don't worry, we're having Pan-American battleships soon, maybe.

and not the historical kind.

[gaunt owl]

Mikasa needs her friends 🙏

[dawn nebula]

I haven’t actually heard of that particular event (what’s it called?), as I’ve only been playing since "Secrets of Abyss". As for those ships, though (and interestingly, this applies to the Chinese ones too), once again, the inconsistency really "kills" me. Manjuu is happy to add historical modules even to prototypes or concept sketches ships, but is it really so difficult for them to add those First World War guns and so on? For example, a gun for the Seydlitz or Chinese ships? That’s not in the game. When you get a ship like the Emden, for instance, you have all the slots empty. And yet it does happen that a ship already has some sort of base configuration of certain modules built in (rather historical, from what I see), and so on.

The funniest thing is that you can’t really even complain about it on the server, because there’s a rule stating that you shouldn’t post about proposed equipment for ships on #game-feedback xDDD I mean, I get that when it comes to skins, at least half the server would go mad and start suggesting whatever they wanted en masse. But really? Modules / Gear (how you would like to named it)? Who’s their advocate on the server? Probably only a real "perfectionist" like me, who’d like to be able to configure everything historically, etc.

[desert agate]

if #game-feedback worked I wouldn't have quit lmao

https://azurlane.koumakan.jp/wiki/Rondo_at_Rainbow's_End

[dawn nebula]

Ah, that? I recognise it from seeing it, but I haven’t played it, not even in the archive. It’s true, the shop’s spectacular lack of variety really stands out, and that’s because there isn’t a single piece of unique equipment.

[subtle prawn]

https://theaviationist.com/2026/05/17/russia-starts-testing-twin-seat-variant-of-su-57-felon/

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3mm3bct2qwk22

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

Naval Aviators Safe After EA-18G Growlers Crash at Idaho Air Show — USNI News news.usni.org/2026/05/17/n...

-# Naval Aviators Safe After EA-18G Growlers Crash at Idaho Air Show - USNI News
Four Navy pilots are safe after their EA-18G Growlers crashed during the Gunfighter Skies air show at the Mountain Home Air Force Base in Idaho on Sunday. The Growlers were assigned to the “Vikings” o...

Bluesky · May 17, 2026, 9:06 PM

[dawn nebula]

I forgot to ask about the source .

[eternal veldt]

Hitler's table talk, 1941-1944: his private conversations.

[spiral cedar]

Source: literally Hitler

[eternal veldt]

One might even say he yaps a lot.

[lapis eagle]

🥀

[lapis eagle]

5th gen su30

[violet mist]

out of all

it still looks like the 2 seater nose of their previous sukhois

[gaunt owl]

Except the swan neck

A Flanker style cockpit without the swan neck feels cursed

[lapis eagle]

5th gen su30

[autumn sorrel]

I frankly thought it should have been something need to be done since the first conception, having a twin seat variant for training and other myriad role.

[desert agate]

They need a 2 seater because their simulators aren't good enough lmao

[subtle prawn]

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2026/05/french-navy-details-steps-taken-to-build-frigate-availability-to-80/

[desert agate]

There is 0 chance that can be sustainable long term

[spring briar]

Let’s see

Maybe trough a loophole

[burnt scarab]

I dont even know how the F18 crashed ?!

[dawn nebula]

That’s what I thought, but I wanted to be sure. Well, now, paradoxically, we’d have plenty to talk about. Because this book is quite... problematically convoluted. There’s a lot to be said about it, though; what’s more, I’m not sure there’s any real need to dissect Hitler’s remarks on a game server dedicated to cute anime girl ships (and yet, along with, say, Hearts of Iron IV, such servers are often the best place for it ), so let’s just say this briefly regarding the names of these ships:

https://tenor.com/view/fair-enough-shea-brennan-sam-elliott-1883-thats-reasonable-gif-24225989

Especially as it is quite amusing how quickly the fortunes of the war itself – and Hitler’s own views – can change. In the space of a single year, the world could still dream of battleships, even though they were already on the wane (). The next year, no one was under any illusions and the trend towards size had reversed. Now, only small, mass-produced vessels made any sense. Well, apart from the famous aircraft carriers, which also wreak havoc in Azur Lane and are probably my favourite class (I’ve been quite lucky with them and have quite a few UR ships). Though, I love battleships too, because they really do the job. Anyway, never mind, I’ve strayed from the original topic. And this isn’t the right channel for that.

[eternal veldt]

It really isn't that convoluted; Moustache man said it sounds good in 1942, and reverses his decision in 1943.

In other meetings, he has considered using 4x3 380mm on an H-class should the 406mm perform suboptimally; fallbacks happen if things don't go to plan.

[remote monolith]

Hitler flipflopped on a great many things yeah

particularly early on when he's still somewhat reasonable and a bit prone to get pushed by the OKW

[dawn nebula]

By "convoluted", I was mainly referring to the credibility and reliability of the source itself. To put it very simply and briefly, one could say that it is suitable, but several factors need to be taken into account. Well, as I said above, it would take a long time to go into that in detail.

By the way, isn’t it very funny that, simply by mentioning the H-class battleships somewhere by Hitler, we’re now getting extra girls to play as, many years after the war?

[eternal veldt]

I'm not sure I follow. Both names were proposed by him, and both were turned down by him. Where exactly is the problem of reliability or credibility? Are you suggesting that these quotations are incorrect?

[remote monolith]

wait a minute, Hitler's Table Talk?

let me recheck that

I remember that was among a to be cautioned source

ah, hmmm

Rather it's a translation of „Hitlers Tischgespräche“ and „Monologe im Führerhauptquartier“ (the partially falsified and therefore absolutely unreliable English "translation" by Trevor-Roper is called Hitler's Table-Talk, see M. Nilsson, "Hugh Trevor-Roper and the English Editions of Hitler's Table Talk and Testament", Journal of Contemporary History, 2016, vol. 51, issue 4; R. Carrier, "'Hitler's Table Talk': Troubling Finds", German Studies Review, 2003, vol. 26, issue 3).

The underlying German source itself is extremely problematic, as Mikael Nilsson demonstrates in "Hitler redivivus. „Hitlers Tischgespräche“ und „Monologe im Führerhauptquartier“ – eine kritische Untersuchung", Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 2019, Band 67, Heft 1.

Nilsson shows that the long and detailed notes, taken mostly in 1941-2 by Martin Bormann's assisstants Heinrich Heim and Henry Picker, were made not during Hitler's talks, but afterwards, from memory, sometimes based on key words taken down during the conversation.

By itself this wouldn't be so fatal to the value of these notes, as long as one would simply remember this is not what Hitler literally said, not a stenographic record, but Nilsson also found that whole chunks of text were added to the typed transcripts, probably months afterwards, that these notes contain alleged statements by Hitler that are contradicted by other, more credible sources, that the German editions were significantly changed with time, etc.

These notes cannot therefore be used as a credible source, and this goes for their new translation into French.

One more point that Nilsson establishes: Hitler knew that his words would be written down, therefore these notes, even had they been credibly edited, wouldn't really constitute Hitler's "private" thoughts.

well, I guess the H-class talks is probably among the possibly correct information though

[eternal veldt]

If that is the case, then both his 1942 and 1943 quote can just simply be defenestrated

Simply "H" and "J"

[remote monolith]

it's certainly more likely to be correct than the other informations in the book at least, specifically the more screedy ones like his Christianity talks

I imagine it's easier remembering Hitler once talked about wanting to name something than his rants

[eternal veldt]

I don't think either names appeared in the RM6 archives, but the 12 38cm variant did, at least.

[remote monolith]

hmm, so arguably best case scenario is that it was always just an informal naming that could possibly have been official had the project genuinely went through

[dawn nebula]

Right then, I’ve got no choice, I’ll have to write a bit more xD

Introduction
Hitler's Table Talk is a somewhat problematic work, precisely because, even before it had a chance to see the light of day, there was already a huge demand for this kind of source material. For what exactly did Adolf Hitler say to those around him during the Second World War, especially towards the end, when he became more withdrawn and rather unpleasant to be around (if he was ever actually friendly)? Well... it’s not so easy to say. That is why, when the world was introduced to this book in 1951, doubts and criticism immediately began to multiply around it.

One must remember that these are, in essence, rather chaotic notes by an employee of Hitler’s Headquarters, Henry Picker, compiled mainly on the orders of Martin Bormann – the Head of the Chancellery and the Führer’s secretary.

After the war, these "scribblings" fell into the hands of François Genoud, a Swiss financier, who in 1992 said that "if Hitler had won, the world would be a better place". So, it is clear who we are dealing with. Our “fellow financier” was already making a tidy profit from Goebbels’ diaries, so he must have been delighted to be given the opportunity to bring to the world an even wider collection of Hitler’s monologues on a vast array of topics. In any case, the trend for the so-called “memory industry” had already begun by then. All these books of the "I was Hitler’s [insert profession]" variety.

Further details
The point is that Hitler’s Table Talk consists largely of paraphrases and recollections of what Hitler might have said—though he need not have said it exactly as recorded—rather than an exact, word-for-word reproduction of his quotes.

It is highly likely that the notes were written at different times and were often written down from memory several years later; worse still, they were edited by Genoud, the editors, and distorted by the translators. It is simply difficult to assess to what extent these quotations were paraphrased or altered by the time of publication. Nevertheless, let us offer a slight defence of this book: whatever the process behind the creation of these notes may have been, it does suggest a certain authenticity, or at the very least captures the essence of what Hitler meant on certain issues. The problem lies mainly in what came later: in the potential editorial discretion and the fact that the accuracy of the notes depends on several intermediaries. It therefore becomes difficult to separate genuine statements from those that are slightly or heavily distorted, not to mention those that are completely false. We are therefore a bit like Alice, but not in Wonderland, rather in the Land of Paraphrases and Conjectures.

Conclusion
So is Hitler’s Table Talk rubbish? Well, you can’t quite put it like that. One simply needs to be sensitive to the content here, ideally by comparing it carefully with other, more unambiguous sources containing Hitler’s thoughts that interest us. An example? Well, one could simply take a passage from the book and check whether Hitler’s opinion expressed there is echoed in the statements of other Nazis. If, for example, Hitler’s criticism of Christianity is mentioned by at least a few other people (and it is), then we can assume that the book is telling the 100% truth in this case. However, if we find something for which there is no confirmation elsewhere, then we are really treading on thin ice. Because we don’t know what it actually is. The transcribers might have made a mistake, they might not have accurately noted who said what, on what date, and so on.

Bormann might have inserted his own interpolations, etc.

It is tempting to take the easy way out and avoid all this, because if we were to start doubting Hitler’s Table Talk and apply careful, scholarly scepticism to these notes, we would lose what many sought immediately after the Second World War: We are running out of a very simple source, we lose access to a substantial part of the Führer’s worldview, which would give us a "shortcut" to understanding his character and personality changes. In short: we are back to beginning, facing some rather hard graft on historical wasteland.

Ultimately, we are fortunate that a significant portion of this book can indeed be effectively verified through other sources, whilst any radical criticism of it runs into a host of overly complex issues. For instance, the fact that Hitler knew his thoughts were being recorded, so he might not have been entirely sincere in his conversations. He might have wanted to convey something different to "future generations" than what he actually meant. An excessive dose of scepticism is therefore also detrimental in this case.

Final thoughts: No, I’m not saying that the quotes you’ve provided are incorrect. My point was more that we should be careful about presenting them as 100% certain facts, based solely on that particular book. Because, as I wrote above, it is not a pure historical source in itself. It can be used, but it should always be placed in context, backed up by other sources and references confirming the reliability of the narrative here. Having said that, perhaps we could try playing around with this idea? Is there any other mention anywhere that Hitler wanted to name both H-39-class battleships after these figures? As Ulrich von Hutten and Götz von Berlichingen? The more evidence we find, the more certain we can be that these extensive quotations are indeed 100% accurate.

@eternal veldt Ah, and sorry for such a long post.

That’s just the charm of me and channels like this .

[remote monolith]

uuuh, yeah

that's what we've discussed, thank you

[dawn nebula]

You seem to have overhaul with that Wikipedia entry (I think), so you could say my comment is just an expansion to whole topic. When I was writing it, I wasn’t actually following this thread closely, as I had no way of doing so. Anyway, these are probably my final words on the subject, because, truth be told, I’ve been dragging out this thread about the H-class battleships for what must be two days now, and I just wanted to clarify some facts for the purposes of... an essay on whether Azur Lane’s 9th anniversary is a hit or a miss xD So, you could say I’ve got more than enough .

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V489QMm6Mt0

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F7vRUz9UvQ

[subtle prawn]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/france-beats-uk-in-sweden-frigate-contest/

[gaunt owl]

officially inducted

[spring briar]

ayy

[remote monolith]

Oh god it's the fat man

At least crop his shitass out

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li4trI4QarI

[subtle prawn]

https://theaviationist.com/2026/05/19/official-imagery-of-two-seat-su-57/

https://theaviationist.com/2026/05/19/italy-wil-procure-six-a330-mrtt-tankers/

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SucRSsseqdE

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/Fighterman_FFRC/status/2056885382009196637

Fighterman_FFRC (@Fighterman_FFRC)

First flight of the two-seater Su-57D prototype

**💬 1 🔁 37 ❤️ 191 👁️ 3.8K **

▶ Play video

FxTwitter · May 19, 2026, 11:51 PM

[autumn sorrel]

So it is real

[subtle prawn]

I saw some guy online calling it a photoshop/AI, he must be pissed now that UAC has decided to prove him wrong

[remote monolith]

bro please, no scam

<@&472236072743600148>

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsbBJGwzxp8

[spring briar]

Or 1400 for a Hipper

[unborn wyvern]

A whole lot less for Haida

Twas cool. Would recommend

[runic ermine]

You were in Hamilton?

[unborn wyvern]

Yes unfortunately

[runic ermine]

Why unfortunately?

[unborn wyvern]

Hamilton has alot of issues, polution, police corruption, drug abuse and so on. I'm only half joking when i tell people it's "Canada's Detroit"

But Hadia was very cool. if you're ever in the Toronto Area then i'd 100% recomend a visit. the staff were friendly and there's plenty of places to see above and below decks but i will warn you that it is a WW2 naval distroyer so please watch your head

[runic ermine]

Were you there on the 18th?

[unborn wyvern]

No

Why?

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3mmfbmisov22u

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

Air Boss Orders Flight Demo Team Safety Stand Down Following Growler Crash — USNI News
news.usni.org/2026/05/21/a...

-# Air Boss Orders Flight Demo Team Safety Stand Down Following Growler Crash - USNI News
U.S. Naval Air Forces issued a safety stand down for four tactical aviation teams following a crash between two EA-18G Growlers at an air show over the weekend. All four Naval aviators ejected from th...

Bluesky · May 21, 2026, 8:38 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3mmfdm67ols2u

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

Modular Construction Key to Battleship Effort, Navy Official Says — USNI News
news.usni.org/2026/05/21/m...

-# Modular Construction Key to Battleship Effort, Navy Official Says - USNI News
Spreading the construction of the Trump-class battleship across several different manufacturing locations is key to the Navy’s current plan to build the almost three-football-field-long warship, a ser...

Bluesky · May 21, 2026, 9:14 PM

[runic ermine]

Just curious

[unborn wyvern]

ah

[runic ermine]

Cuz something happened there on Victoria day

[unborn wyvern]

I was doing something else that weekend

the Halton County Radial Museum.

It's between Guelph and Hamilton. it's a good time if you're interested in Canadian Streetcar history (provided it's mostly Toronto lol)

[oak steeple]

AL is going to add panamerican ship

name me your panamerican ship that you have a huge feeling is going to be in game

like, if Manjuu don't add them, it felt weird as fuck

[subtle prawn]

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2026/05/australia-spends-big-on-lote-life-extension-for-collins-submarines/

[desert agate]

It was always going to happen

[supple sandal]

Is space a Navy territory or Air Force

[autumn sorrel]

Depends, from the recent development I would say it is an airforce matter. But frankly, light multirole space vehicle doesn't sound as cool as Space Frigate

[subtle prawn]

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2026/05/japan-commissions-ninth-mogami-class-frigate-natori-「なとり」/

[supple sandal]

Space battleship

[twilit geyser]

It’s both once you consider Aegis and ballistic missiles.

[low mountain]

Did you just... Say Aegis?

[dusk pumice]

bro shut the fuck up this ain't sols rng server

[pulsar viper]

and it hey, so...i realized something

every doc i find says that the IJN I-14 had a 140mm type 11 deck gun

yet every single photo of the ship i find, she has no deck gun to speak of

im wondering, what happened to it

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3mmjjrs6uh42q

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

#OTD in 2012, a shipyard worker started a fire on USS Miami (SSN-755) so he could leave work early. The Navy decided to decommission the sub after estimates for repairs reached $700 million. The Miami joined a short list of U.S. Navy vessels lost since WWII.

Bluesky · May 23, 2026, 1:15 PM

[pulsar viper]

...i highly doubt that reasoning unless it came right from the crime report

[desert agate]

He literally admitted to it

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0CnhMIvuV4

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4xvz4ueqKU

[pulsar viper]

but yeah...where da gun go

[desert agate]

All of these pictures are post-surrender so the gun was likely removed by the Allies

[twilit geyser]

https://navalmarinearchive.com/research/docs/cruisers/index.html

[autumn sorrel]

@exotic timber scam acc

[desert agate]

<@&460646206851252224>

[remote monolith]

https://en.tempo.co/read/2105456/ancient-buddhist-structure-discovered-in-central-java-indonesia#goog_rewarded

Slowly but surely the blurry picture of pre-Islam dharmic Java continues to be revealed

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3mmrxak5fps2n

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

2 Naval Aviators Safe After T-45C Goshawk Crashes in Mississippi, Some Training Flights Paused — USNI News
news.usni.org/2026/05/26/2...

-# 2 Naval Aviators Safe After T-45C Goshawk Crashes in Mississippi, Some Training Flights Paused - USNI News
Two naval aviators are safe after their U.S. Navy T-45C Goshawk crashed around 12:30 p.m. Central in Mississippi. The aviators ejected safely and are being evaluated at a local medical center, accordi...

Bluesky · May 26, 2026, 9:37 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3mmrvvop5ek2z

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

House Wants Funding for a Second Arleigh Burke Destroyer in Next Fiscal Year — USNI News
news.usni.org/2026/05/26/h...

-# House Wants Funding for a Second Arleigh Burke Destroyer in Next Fiscal Year - USNI News
House authorizers want additional funding for the Navy to buy a second guided-missile destroyer in the next fiscal year, according to new legislation. The bill, released Tuesday, authorizes $500 milli...

Bluesky · May 26, 2026, 9:13 PM

[hushed rune]

https://fxtwitter.com/BattleshipNJ/status/2059361434606133722

Battleship New Jersey (@BattleshipNJ)

It is with deep sadness that we share the passing of William "Bill" Ryan, one of our last World War II veterans who served aboard Battleship New Jersey. Bill joined the Navy at 18 years old and served aboard Battleship New Jersey, his battle station was in the gun house of Turret III. He left the Navy in 1946.
︀︀
︀︀"I had a real, real good experience in the Navy, and I don't regret any part of it."
︀︀
︀︀Bill was over 100 years old. He will be deeply missed by everyone here at Battleship New Jersey. We are honored to have known him. Fair winds and following seas, Bill.

**💬 1 🔁 33 ❤️ 218 👁️ 4.7K **

FxTwitter · May 26, 2026, 7:50 PM

[lapis eagle]

so uhm

are they gonna use uss Gerald r Ford as floating powerplant

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, it is one of the features

[lost ravine]

They did that to Lexington CV-2 back in the 1929.

[cold hull]

@lost ravine Is it true?

[lost ravine]

https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/1990/september/carrier-lit-tacoma

[cold hull]

Yes they are right

[desert agate]

It's a test to see if a ports power plant is hit then the carrier can be used as a backup

It's not the first time something like this has been done, nor the first with nuclear powered ships

The Americans and the French have both powered port facilities using nuclear powered submarines

Both operationally and in tests

After Darwin was wiped out by Cyclone Tracey in 1974, Operation Navy Help Darwin, the RANs largest ever peacetime operation, included HMAS Stalwart providing power to what was left of the city as the power grid was reestablished

She would be used to provide power to vital facilities such as the hopsital and homes until local power generation could be provided a month after the cyclone

So yes ships are often used to provide power to port facilities and other vital locations and do so quite often

[lapis eagle]

oh

so it's not anything new

[subtle prawn]

Never was

[gaunt stump]

Tacoma Washington was powered by the USS Saratoga in the thirties when they had power issues. I think it was a couple weeks.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.twz.com/sea/congress-moves-to-block-trump-class-battleship-work-until-its-key-weapons-are-mature

[gaunt stump]

Good call. There have been far too many projects that failed after billions spent due to immature tech.

[twilit geyser]

Not advocating for the battleship at all, but not listening to what Trump wants on the ship like the HELCAP and the railgun will solve that issue.

Development on the HELCAP itself/hundred kW laser ranges have been slow and underfunded is not only because of optical limitations, but operational requirements as well. They are unlike the current lasers fielded which are more like dazzlers which are reasonable to an extent to say, what HELCAP would essentially be, that being a CIWS of sorts.

[cold hull]

What are all the oldest ships in history?

[remote monolith]

I'm not sure anyone can answer that with any degree of certainty

Boats, rafts and ships has been part of humanity for a very long time

[autumn sorrel]

Well, the oldest named ship in history is "Praise of the Two Lands", from 2613 BCE Egypt

[remote monolith]

and Sneferu was hardly the oldest of mankind, given that Sumer predated him by at least a millennia

[autumn sorrel]

I do hope there is a ship named “Fuck Ea Nasir”

[grave ravine]

There are also still questions about CPS, though hopefully those will be worked out sooner rather than later

As CPS was also likely going to be an element of DDG(X) if it does go forward

[chilly osprey]

That was part of the reason why DDG(X) was working with the concept of "we can swap 32x Mk.41 for 12x CPS cells"

DDG(X) wasn't necessarily going to have it from the start, it just needed to have the SWAP-C to take it later should the Navy want to place it on the ships.

Fundamentally though the intent with DDG(X) was, with the intent of getting the design sooner than later, it would go to sea with basically everything that equips the Flight III Burke's, just rebaselined onto a new hull.

The problem with BBG(X) is that it just makes those growth features the whole purpose of the ship, with seemingly the only reasonable justifications for the massive displacement being battery capacity for the railgun and DEW's while also bringing a full load of VLS and CPS.

And then somehow this is also to be delivered sooner than DDG(X) was supposed to deliver.

Which is, simply put, fucking insane.

Oh, yes, and also it requires Dock No.12 at HII NNS to assemble, thereby bringing potential further disruptions to CVN construction.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEYrO4n6QZE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osShCVtn0VU

[spring briar]

Who asked for this

[subtle prawn]

Idk

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/belgian-firm-to-acquire-british-rifle-maker/

<@&460646206851252224>

Oh, they got him before I could ping

[whole skiff]

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVgmA-_UYH4

[junior trench]

if I'm rolling in a P-38 where it would matter for combat

[royal quail]

MG 151 for life

[junior trench]

then I've already fucked up

[smoky crane]

I hear them and panic then realise they’re on the other side of the map

They’re really fucking loud

[royal quail]

They have low velocity though

But I'm so used to aiming with them

[smoky crane]

I still haven’t learned to Immelmann

[junior trench]

I'm the bastard who climbs to alt with a P-38 then spends the whole match boom and zooming people

[royal quail]

I love doing head-ons in my Fw-A4

[smoky crane]

I perform one boom and zoom at the start

[royal quail]

4 20mm guns

4

[smoky crane]

Then just chasing everyone down

I haven’t learned to climb properly

Just praying that the enemy ace doesn’t see me

[royal quail]

Climb at 15-20 degrees

[smoky crane]

And that our mvp has dealt with them

[royal quail]

With the minimum speed of 270 or something

[smoky crane]

Ah

[royal quail]

km/h btw

[smoky crane]

I remember shenanigans with a Catalina

[royal quail]

Ah, those things

[smoky crane]

I went for a bombing run with one

And was looking down bomb sights

So I didn’t notice the enemy Catalina pull up next to me

[royal quail]

Aerial tunnel vision

[smoky crane]

So there we were flying side by side

Tail gunners shooting each other

[royal quail]

Doing a broadside in a bomber

Lovely

[smoky crane]

And I knock his pilot out

Then drop the load

[royal quail]

How about tanks?

Do you play tanks?

[smoky crane]

Yeah a little

Soviet tanks

[royal quail]

I play British tanks most of the time now

[visual minnow]

world of tenk

[royal quail]

I remember using a Crusader Mk III and hiding on a ledge

[smoky crane]

T-26 is painfully slow compared to a bt-5

[junior trench]

just play T-34 easy mode with nuclear shells and armor which bounces things it has no right to

[royal quail]

A T-34 just stared at me trying to figure out if I was dead

I fired a smoke shell and charged the bastard

it actually worked

[smoky crane]

Managed 6 kills with the 26 tho

I’m still in tier 1

[junior trench]

Pz IV E is a hilarious seal clubber

[royal quail]

I think I've once managed 6-9 kills in a Cromwell

[smoky crane]

Only 50 hours total gameplay

[royal quail]

It's fun shooting tunnel visioned tankers in a Cromwell

One of my favourite tactics is using riversides as a flanking route

People just don't check rivers

[smoky crane]

I just park wherever

[visual minnow]

for a brief time I was one of the top 100 players in the JagdPzIV and Chi-He in WoT~

[smoky crane]

And look for the nearest guy

[royal quail]

I don't usually park my tank

Except in certain situations

I usually keep moving place to place because the guy I just killed might be going out for revenge

[smoky crane]

I just hit every name in red

And hope it works

[royal quail]

Wew

A true Russian tactic

[smoky crane]

Is the is-2 good?

[royal quail]

It can bounce tiger shells sometimes

And it has a good gun

[smoky crane]

Russian bias?

[royal quail]

Yep

[smoky crane]

Is-2?

[royal quail]

Yeah

[smoky crane]

More like

[royal quail]

Bias-2

I saw that coming

[smoky crane]

Lmao

[royal quail]

"Your next line is "Bias-2", isn't it?"

[junior trench]

it has 122m shells from like, 1946-47

because

[royal quail]

Eh

[smoky crane]

“Bias-2” isn’t it?

[royal quail]

I don't see em a lot though

[smoky crane]

gasps

[royal quail]

I usually meet post-war tanks in my Tiger

[smoky crane]

Irl was the t-34 decent?

[royal quail]

In what way?

Performance, reliability, production?

[smoky crane]

Performance

[royal quail]

Not too shabby

It did the job

Then we have reliability

Uh....

More of the lack of?

But when it comes to production, they were dirt cheap

[smoky crane]

Just easily produced I see

[royal quail]

hell, they were probably cheaper than dirt

Easy to produce, and cheap too

[smoky crane]

I recall them being produced on the frontlines in one battle

[royal quail]

Well, the Germans did nearly reach Moscow

[smoky crane]

Like straight off the assembly line into the battle

[royal quail]

So that isn't surprising

Unless of course you're talking about late-war

[rose hornet]

They didn't even bother to put paint on

[royal quail]

The blood of their enemies are their paint

[smoky crane]

Like infantry just spam Russian tanks?

[rose hornet]

"Go fight for motherland even if you are ugly"

[royal quail]

RISE UP RED ARMY

Pffft, the T-34 looks ugly either way

[rose hornet]

[royal quail]

It's not gonna win any beauty contests all right

[smoky crane]

Could be worse

[royal quail]

look at the bloody turret

It might as well be a 1 man turret

[smoky crane]

There’s Australia’s sentinel tank

[royal quail]

Oi, mate

[rose hornet]

Bob Semple best tank

[royal quail]

[smoky crane]

Still gets a laugh out of me

Glory to bob semple

[royal quail]

Long live the Bob Sampletext

[visual minnow]

try any of the early British Mediums

those Vickers designs

are so barf

[royal quail]

Do you mean cruiser tanks or infantry tanks?

They didn't really call the things medium tanks, heavy tanks, etc

[smoky crane]

What was the slowest tank actually produced?

[royal quail]

Mark I?

[visual minnow]

they literally called them Vickers Medium

it's the name, not the type

[royal quail]

"Speed 3.7 mph (6.0 km/h) maximum"

[visual minnow]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Medium_Mark_II

[royal quail]

oh boy, what a fast ride

[rose hornet]

Bob Sampletext

I'm gonna steal that

[royal quail]

What the fuck is that?

What were the inter-war designers on?

[rose hornet]

Where is the turret even pointing

[royal quail]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_A1E1_Independent

Vickers shitposting time?

[rose hornet]

Back to talking about ships I think

[royal quail]

We are talking about landships

[visual minnow]

there's a reason why Vickers is only really known for their 6-ton tank, when it comes to armor

[smoky crane]

Might as well have made it a fixed fortification

[royal quail]

What did Vickers make right anyways?

[smoky crane]

It ain’t going anywhere

[royal quail]

The Vickers machine gun?

[smoky crane]

I only know their machine guns

[royal quail]

Same

I mean really, there isn't much mention of Vickers mid to late war

I just thought of this

Vicks

[smoky crane]

They kinda just disappeared

Maybe they stopped manufacturing firearms and sold cough medication instead

[royal quail]

Looks like it

[visual minnow]

oh, Vickers did make the Valentine

okay so they at least made something useful

[royal quail]

It's an infantry tank though

I just don't like infantry tanks

This one though

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/MatildaII.jpg/300px-MatildaII.jpg

I like

waltzing matilda intensifies

[smoky crane]

The valentine?

[royal quail]

They used this all the way to the PACIFIC

That's the Matilda

[smoky crane]

Funny name for a tank

Valentine that is

[royal quail]

oh

I guess it's just to show their love of the enemy

violently

[smoky crane]

I assume it’s a tank?

[visual minnow]

Matilda II was one of the best tanks considering how much mileage Britain got out of it

yeah Valentine infantry tank

[royal quail]

Why Valentine though?

🤔

[smoky crane]

Maybe it was a joke name that stuck

[royal quail]

Hang on

"There are several proposed explanations for the name Valentine. According to the most popular one, the design was presented to the War Office on St. Valentine's Day, 14 February 1940, although some sources say that the design was submitted on Valentine's Day 1938 or 10 February 1938.[1][2][3] White notes that "incidentally" Valentine was the middle name of Sir John V. Carden, the man who was responsible for many tank designs including that of the Valentine's predecessors, the A10 and A11.[4][note 1] Another version says that Valentine is an acronym for Vickers-Armstrong Ltd Elswick & (Newcastle-upon) Tyne. The "most prosaic" explanation according to David Fletcher is that it was just an in-house codeword of Vickers with no other significance.[5]"

No one really knows for sure

[smoky crane]

Does the name work?

[visual minnow]

it's probably a little of #1 and #2

[royal quail]

We may never know

[visual minnow]

since British liked to name some of their vehicles after important military guys

[royal quail]

The British name their tanks funny things

Hang on

I just remembered something gold

[visual minnow]

FLOWER-CLASS CORVETTES

[royal quail]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_4_Chi-To_medium_tank

[smoky crane]

Cheeto tank

[royal quail]

Cheetos

[smoky crane]

Extra cheesy

[royal quail]

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a tank called the Hen-Tai

[visual minnow]

doesn't fit the nomenclature

[royal quail]

it was a joke

[visual minnow]

it's a stupid joke

[royal quail]

gomen

We haven't moved our topic from tanks

[smoky crane]

So c-class British destroyers have names that start with c?

[royal quail]

Yep

Cygnet

[smoky crane]

Anything with c

[royal quail]

C...

Who else were there?

[smoky crane]

Comet

[visual minnow]

Comet and Crescent

[royal quail]

I only remember Cygnet

For obvious reasons

[smoky crane]

It’s so weird though

The only thing they have in common is the starting letter

[royal quail]

There's also an N-class destroyer

Such as the HMS Nonpareil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Tjerk_Hiddes_(G16)

Well, the Tjerk Hiddes after they gave it to the Dutch

[smoky crane]

Meanwhile everyone else has some form of naming convention

[royal quail]

Oh yeah, and Indonesia got it after that

We called it the KRI Gadjah Mada

It was one of our flagships

[smoky crane]

And the the British just pull out whatever word that works

[royal quail]

Yeah

Like, what the hell is Cygnet?

[visual minnow]

when you build as many ships as the Brits did, you kinda need simple naming schemes

[royal quail]

Ih

Oh

"A cygnet is a young swan."

[smoky crane]

How many did they build?

[visual minnow]

Flower-
class
corvettes

[royal quail]

Holy shit

[visual minnow]

267 ships named after flowers

[royal quail]

That's a whole village of corvettes

[visual minnow]

HMS Buttercup

[drowsy tiger]

n-class... i thought it looked a lot like the l class

[smoky crane]

What the hell

267 ships

Did they need that many?

[royal quail]

Why not?

[visual minnow]

that's just one class of ship

[royal quail]

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/kancolle/images/7/7f/Destroyer_I-Class_Full.png/revision/latest?cb=20180818154502

[visual minnow]

kinda like how the US had 175 Fletchers

[royal quail]

This is one of the images that popped up when I was searching I-class destroyer

[smoky crane]

What is that thing

[visual minnow]

I-class DD from Kancolle

a different I though

[smoky crane]

I wasn’t expecting that many ships to be built

Maybe 70 tops

[visual minnow]

it's from an old Japanese numbering system

I Ro Ha, etc.

[royal quail]

If Fletcher said that her parents must be rabbits...

then what of the flower-class?

🤔

[smoky crane]

Turns out I’ve got the scale off

Parent are rabbits?

Bailey?

[royal quail]

[visual minnow]

well corvettes are small support ships

[royal quail]

Bailey mates a ton then?

[smoky crane]

Idk

[royal quail]

Bailey goes into heat during rabbit mating season

Don't forget to lock your doors during that time

[smoky crane]

I live in a vault

[visual minnow]

guess how many PT boats the US used in WWII

[smoky crane]

It is very well sealed

[royal quail]

I think we're forgetting the real MVP here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship

[smoky crane]

300 over pt boats I’m guessing

[visual minnow]

over 500

[smoky crane]

Jesus

That’s a lotta boats

[visual minnow]

and oh yes, logistics the ship, she be named Liberty

[royal quail]

"The vessels were purchased both for the U.S. fleet and lend-lease deliveries of war materiel to Britain and the Soviet Union. Eighteen American shipyards built 2,710 Liberty ships between 1941 and 1945, easily the largest number of ships ever produced to a single design."

2,710

[smoky crane]

I can’t imagine the amount of resources need to build that many

[royal quail]

I heard they were pretty cheap and easy to make

They had welded hulls

WELDED

[smoky crane]

Not good?

[visual minnow]

the Libertys weren't the only cargo ship the USN used either

[royal quail]

It is good for simplicity

[smoky crane]

Fair enough

[royal quail]

What other cargo ship classes are there?

[visual minnow]

well there's the C3

[royal quail]

Ah

I thought it would be something murican like Democracy-class

[junior trench]

But they didn't? John W Brown, a surviving Liberty Ship, was riveted

[visual minnow]

partly known for being converted into the Bogue escort carriers

[royal quail]

Bogue was a cargo ship?

[visual minnow]

converted from one

so was Langley

[royal quail]

Purposed built carriers are much better

Though you do get some funny shit from converted ones

[junior trench]

Casemate 200mm guns

[royal quail]

such as the Lexington-class

203mm guns

[visual minnow]

well when you need a LOT of ships ASAP, conversion fits the bill

[royal quail]

True

[junior trench]

At least they're turreted, unlike the IJN conversions

[royal quail]

Or you're trying to dodge the Washington Naval Treaty

Fuck that treaty

[smoky crane]

Langley was a coal hauler

[visual minnow]

that too

[smoky crane]

She mentions that in her damage line I think

[royal quail]

So that's what she meant

[visual minnow]

like how Zuiho and Shoho were originally submarine tenders, but specifically designed to be converted to light carriers

[royal quail]

Also, the Amagi-class battleships

[smoky crane]

Submarine tenders sound like chicken tenders

[royal quail]

Woops

I meant BC

Not BB

[smoky crane]

It’s like a torpedo tempura but bigger

[royal quail]

Hang on

Akagi and Kaga were different classes

[visual minnow]

yeah

[royal quail]

Akagi was an Amagi-class battlecruiser

Kaga was a Tosa-class BB

Kaga should be bigger than Akagi

[visual minnow]

and she is

longer by like 20 meters

[royal quail]

longer

That would mean Kaga is taller than Akagi?

Ok

[visual minnow]

wait, no, Akagi is longer, Kaga is WIDER

[royal quail]

Hang on

You're making me imagine a fat Kaga

Godammit

Now I'm imagining a tall and skinny Akagi

I can't tell my head to stop making these images

reeeee

[visual minnow]

Kaga also weighed more

[royal quail]

Would it be safe to call Kaga fat?

[visual minnow]

chubby at least

[royal quail]

thicc

👌

[visual minnow]

at 38,000 long tons I think you're disqualified from being described as thicc

[royal quail]

What would that describe?

[visual minnow]

fat

heck, even Lexington and Saratoga weighed less despite being bigger

still fat tho

[royal quail]

I guess Kaga WAS going to be a BB

But then they had other plans

Now we have an overweight CV

[visual minnow]

the Yorktowns were only around 20,000 tons

that's how fat Akagi and Kaga were

[royal quail]

[topaz mango]

Kaga was going to be a tosa class bb

Washington naval treaty put a stop to that

Also as they said above the tosa class was wider because all the armor plating was much much thicker than on the amagi class

[subtle prawn]

How much armor did Kaga lose when she was converted to a CV anyways?

[winter quiver]

That is some weird looking Japanese Wyoming 🤔

[tribal mortar]

Reminds me of Ashitaka

[drowsy tiger]

they are very similar, tosas secondary/upper deck only covers from turret 2 back to the mast while on ashitaka it covers all the way to turret 4

tosa also only has a single smokestack, ashitaka has 2 converging into a single one

[topaz mango]

Kagas hull was so complete she either lost no armor or she only lost outer belt armor @subtle prawn

[hazy tendon]

I was reading about the concord rockets (based from indian ones) and there was something about dedicated concord rocket ships (annoyed the hell out of the french). Was there anything similar on WWII?

[junior trench]

@hazy tendon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Craft_Tank_(Rocket)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSM(R)-188-class_landing_ship_medium

[crisp sparrow]

woah, a rocket boat

[junior trench]

75 × four-rail Mark 36 automatic rocket launchers on topside rocket deck

75 x 4 rockets

[crisp sparrow]

so much flying boooms!

[frozen jewel]

Rockets in ww2 were either used for shore bombardments or AA

The former had dedicated landing ships converted into rocket ships

[hazy tendon]

I can understand the bombardment part. But for AA it would be for mid range firing, right?

How high can a rocket fly?

[frozen jewel]

Nah, we're talking about WW2 and pre-WW2 tech here

Rocket AA are close-ranged AA

[crisp sparrow]

i assume those rockets are use to snipe bombers and less agile aircrafts?

[frozen jewel]

You'd assume wrong.

Basically, larger calibre naval AA guns don't directly try to hit aircraft, but fire a pattern of shots around where an aircraft is headed to either force it to break off, or cause enough damage from shock to take down the attacker. AA rockets work on the same principle

They barrage the areas where aircraft, especially torpedo bombers are making an attack run

In order to force the aircraft to break away or suffer damage

Both the royal navy and the IJN tried out AA rocket barrages, but found them not very effective compared to standard AA guns

[junior trench]

Rocket AA caused for harm than good in Hood's case

Got lit in fire and set her amidships superstructure ablaze

That fire spread to her secondary magazines, among other problems

Like exploding

[crisp sparrow]

so, that's how hood got blown apart by bismarck massive load?

[junior trench]

Nah

It was just one thing on many that Hood got fucked before exploding

[restive remnant]

she had a weak spot in the middle and bismarck hit it perfectly

[junior trench]

Eh

Not really

[restive remnant]

it wasnt?

i had read that she had some kind of design flaw weak spot that was supposed to have already been fixed the last time she was docked

[opal pasture]

The other BCs of the class got the retrofit that fixed a problem that may be related to Hood's detonation, but Hood was too busy power projecting for the British Empire before WW2 started

[restive remnant]

aha i knew it

i think it was some unforseen way to get to her ammo storage through her superstructure if you hit the right spot and i believe it was between her smoke stacks

hence the whole "i sawed this hood in half" -biscuit memes

[smoky crane]

Where can I find this meme

[opal pasture]

The problem with this sort of speculation with Hood, is like the problem with speculation over Mutsu's spontaneous detonation, that most evidence on board was destroyed by the explosion

[smoky crane]

So mutsu just exploded all of a sudden?

[restive remnant]

yeah her turret #3 detonated

underneath that is a picture of mutsu from kancolle and a positive pregnancy test, the kancolle manga is the best

also @smoky crane the hood meme is in #461381136661217283 right now

[smoky crane]

Thanks

[ocean oriole]

@restive remnant it was her second aft turret which detonated, Hood was weak in general against basically anything that’s plunging.

[royal quail]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedgehog_(weapon)

Interesting little thing

[smoky crane]

Have you seen the Soviet fire hedgehog?

It’s 88 PPSh-41s strapped to the underside of a tu-2

[keen comet]

What the hell lol

[junior trench]

Bismarck vs Hood was too close for anything resembling plunging fire to occur with the German high velocity guns

[crisp sparrow]

oof

[tribal mortar]

OOF

[severe sage]

Bully the hood

[royal quail]

Hood is even more dead than the post World War I German Economy

[tribal mortar]

even bigger oof

[rotund patio]

How many USS ships sank during pearl harbour?

[crisp sparrow]

uhh, not that much?

[mental marten]

But the psychological effect was real

[smoky crane]

was there an equivalent to pearl harbour enacted on japan?

[tribal mortar]

Wdym

[smoky crane]

idk like the us navy kinda does a surprise attack on mainland japan

i dunno how to put it better

[opal pasture]

Doolittle raid, which forced committal of more forces in defending mainland (main effect psychological/morale though)

[tribal mortar]

Well the us did a bombing run on tokyo

[smoky crane]

so it didn't do a lot of actual damage, but showed that the bombers could reach the mainland?

[tribal mortar]

Yeh

[hexed hornet]

yep, it was more of a psychological effect at the end of the day

though it set the standards for nearly all future bombings

and not that the us navy needed to do a surprise attack on japan

battle of midway already set 4/6 carriers they sent to pearl harbour ablaze and sunk

at the cost of one in return

and ww2 was the herald of the era of the carriers

[tribal mortar]

Battle of midway came after the us a vombing run did on tokyo

[hexed hornet]

and the fall of battleships

doolittle right

[tribal mortar]

World war 2 was a war of bombing

[crisp sparrow]

WW2 open the stage for aircraft carriers and the dawn of airstrikes

[tribal mortar]

More like airacraft in general

[visual minnow]

the Japanese equivalent to PH was the bombing of Kure naval base

by this point the US had completely beaten the Japanese navy, but they decided to bomb their immobile ships anyway as revenge for Pearl Harbor

[hearty warren]

Why did US nuke Hiroshima Nagasaki?

[hexed hornet]

There are a lot of reasons

One of them was to minimise casualties
Since a land invasion would have killed far more people

As they found out on Okinawa ^

Another was ofc, more political. To prove America was superior to the Soviets

[drowsy tiger]

iirc, one the bombings was intended for another town but due to weather they missed the intended target, when they had a clear view of the ground, they thought that was the intended target

[hexed hornet]

They did change their target, though on both occasions they were planned targets

Like it was a contingency

[hearty warren]

Hmm, so it was to assert dominance in least casualty possible

[hexed hornet]

well there are more reasons

but it's been 2 years since i studied ww2 in detail

i can't rmb a lot

[junior trench]

Nagasaki, if you pay attention to the history of a lot of the IJN ships, was one of Japan's largest naval shipyards, but was still only the second target to Kokura, which was where one if the largest arsenal factories in Japan was.
Hiroshima was headquarters of the military in the Southern Home Islands.

[visual minnow]

the nukes were to scare the Soviets; by this point the Japanese were already preparing to send a surrender to the US and the US knew it

the firebombing of Tokyo did just as much damage as the nuclear bomb did

[opal pasture]

Also, the faster the Japanese surrendered, the less influence the CCCP would have on Asia. E.g. Korea, had the Japanese delayed surrender, possibly all of Korea would have been North Korea.

[visual minnow]

Japan wanted to surrender to the US because they were scared stiff of the Soviets who had just overrun their last defenses in Manchuria

[violet elk]

If you look at the other plans for Japan to get them to surrender if the 2 nukes didn't work, you realise they actually got off lightly

[ruby jungle]

If I'm not wrong, the plan was called Operation Downfall

A 2-part invasion

[subtle prawn]

I forget, was blockading Japan into surrender something the U.S. considered?

[visual minnow]

they already had them blockaded, but I imagine they decided it would take too long

the Soviet threat was already becoming a concern so wasting time blockading Japan was likely not an option

[subtle prawn]

Was there reason why they chose not to blockade them into surrendering, because if it took too long, more civvies would be dead?

[hearty warren]

Japan mistake was pissed off Murica and Soviet then

[severe sage]

well japan and germany could have gotten away with it

if they hadnt poked the Soviet and murica and just consolidate their rule in the territories they have claimed

[violet elk]

There were 2 possible plans. One was to chemically destroy ALL crops they could find in addition to a total blockade, the other was a full invasion with several more nukes dropped on other large cities. Expected allied casualties in such an invasion were 1million or more expected.

In both cases, Japanese losses? Well...they were planning on bringing Japanese Americans over to the islands to repopulate them. Take that as you will...

Hirohito was only just able to get a message out about his willingness to surrender, despite him being the Emperor there were several powerful people willing to fight to the death who tried to stop him from getting that message out to both the Allies and his own people.

[junior trench]

Ok

Wow

Some really badly informed stuff about the A bombs.

Let's go over that "surrender offer" Japan wanted to send...

[hexed hornet]

Hirohito unfortunately wasn't the most strong a leader as it comes

[junior trench]

August 9th

The second bomb has been dropped

[hexed hornet]

Dead Enders
Is that me

[junior trench]

Japanese terms of surrender were "no Allied occupation, must control its own war crimes trials, and must manage the disarmament process"

Admittedly this is an improvement over the previous set of demands...

Which included Japan retaining it's prewar territories

Which were already occupied by Allied forces.

But remember "japan was about to surrender guiz, the bombz were just to scare the commies"

[visual minnow]

you're doing the exact opposite, only taking part of what you just quoted

[subtle prawn]

Wouldn’t control of their own war crime trials mean they could just pardon everyone who did commit one?

[junior trench]

Yes

Also, the Soviets represented zero threat to the Home Islands themselves. Their ability to land any sort of force and then sustain that force to actually fight and hole territory in the Home Islands was virtually non-existant.

Unless, of course, you sincerely believe that all 36 of Project Hula's (the program to train and equip a Soviet amphibious force) ships capable of performing amphibious operations over the distances required are actually enough to do that...

[visual minnow]

the excerpts you posted confirm that they were considering surrender

[junior trench]

On August 9th.

After the second atomic bomb

[subtle prawn]

Also, didn’t the USSR have basically no experience with amphibious operations when compared to the Western Allies?

[junior trench]

Also "surrender"

With no real consequences

@subtle prawn it doesn't help that 5 of 16 landing ships were lost during the Battle of Shumshu

Leaving a grand total of 29 ocean capable landing ships

[subtle prawn]

So basically Japan’s desired terms of surrender was, “Hey guys, let’s forget about what I did to those countries earlier, yeah?”

[junior trench]

Yeeup

[visual minnow]

surrender was already being considered earlier that summer

this isn't whether or not they would accept unconditional surrender but whether the atomic bombs were the reason for it

[junior trench]

Foreign Minister Togo cabled Tokyo’s ambassador to Moscow, Sato: “It is His Majesty’s heart’s desire to see the swift termination of the war. In the Greater East Asia War, however, as long as America and England insist on unconditional surrender, our country has no alternative but to see it through in an all-out effort for the sake of survival and the honor of the homeland.” Sato replied: “I believe it no exaggeration to say that the possibility of getting the Soviet Union to join our side and go along with our reasoning is next to nothing.”

The Japanese overture was a dead letter from the start, and the Americans knew it. Through the Magic intercepts, the U.S. discerned from nearly the first moment that the initiative was going nowhere. Truman and his administration knew the Supreme War Direction Council was in a state of dysfunctional paralysis. A split between the dead-enders and the peace seekers blocked any possibility of formulating peace terms to present to the Allies. Togo pressed his case, instructing the ambassador on July 13 to inform the Kremlin that the emperor wished to dispatch Prince Konoye as a “special envoy” to Moscow “carrying with him the personal letter of His Majesty stating the Imperial wish to end the war.” However, Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov immediately replied that he was “simply not able to accommodate” the request. The Magic intercepts of Japanese diplomatic cables, which were sent directly to the White House, dismantled any argument that the Japanese were seriously discussing peace, much less on the verge of surrender in mid-July 1945.

[violet elk]

The one condition to Japan's 'unconditional' surrender from the top of my head after the bombs was to keep the Emperor and the imperial family intact.

Again from the top of my head, pretty much all the cabinet the Emperor spoke to was against surrender until they could negotiate from a position of some sort of strength, all barring the previous Prime Minister (who had stood down before the war) advocated such a stance. The previous PM was in favour of accepting the Potsdam declaration and the Emperor seemed to be as well, but was conviced by the 6 in his cabinet to respond with the 4 terms mentioned (Emperor keeps power, keeps territories, etc.)

[junior trench]

That's the only demand of Japan's which gets any press

Because it's convenient to leave out the rest when trying to push a certain point of view

[violet elk]

yeah.

[junior trench]

"Japan would surrender if certain conditions were met: (1) preservation of the emperor; (2) that Japan was not to be occupied; (3) that the Japanese armed forces be disbanded voluntarily; (4) that war criminals would be prosecuted by Japanese courts in Japan."

Quick and dirty summary of Japanese surrender demands

[violet elk]

in response to Potsdam? yeah, nice summary.

[junior trench]

Of note is that "Japan" to the Japanese included Taiwan, Korea, and Manchuria

So it'd still be most of their prewar empire

[violet elk]

yeah, they wanted to keep their 'pre-war territories'

[junior trench]

Their territory "losses" would be shit they took from other people in the war

[violet elk]

which was never going to happen

technically before the war, since it was an 'incident' not a war to the Japanese and was mostly taken before the outbreak of hostilities with the Allies.

but the point stands

[junior trench]

I'd also like to put into context that during 1945, every 2 weeks Japan was killing a Nagasaki's worth of Chinese civilians.

Of course that's averaging it out

Japan massacred in spurts of activity.

Incidentally the invasion of Japan was to involve 7-12 atomic bombs to soften up the landing zones and defenses behind them...

[violet elk]

yeah, that was before anyone understood radioactive fallout incidently. So the million + casualties came from estimates before anyone knew what marching soldiers into radioactive hotzones would do.

[junior trench]

Of course we could just blockade them instead. And watch as the famine of 1945-46 happens with zero food imports from the US which happened in OTL to stave off mass starvation.

And then we'd be having arguments about how the US was so evulz for starving the poor Imperial Japanese rather than nuking them.

[violet elk]

The blockade plan they had included plans to drop a chemical to destroy crops they found from planes like they did in Vietnam with Agent Orange.

Well, both the Invasion and the blockade plans basically left the US expecting to need to import Japanese-americans to keep the Japanese race in existance.

[junior trench]

People claiming the US was genociding Japan
The US literally making contingencies to import Japanese-Americans to Japan

[violet elk]

Considering what the IJA was doing (arming people with spears and grenades for suicide charges) it was a fairly realistic outcome actually.

[royal quail]

Let's not forget that there were locals from the territories occupied by Japan which were forced to help the Japanese army

https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heiho

Uh... I dunno if there are any articles in English

This one is an example in Indonesia

[smoky crane]

Basically conscripted prisoners?

[royal quail]

Not really

I dunno then again

I guess some were prisoners, and some were just random people

According to the article, they were only helping out in stuff like building defenses, guarding certain places etc.

But as the war got worse for Japan, they actually started sending them to battle

[smoky crane]

On paper it sounds like a dick move but I guess anything goes when you’re losing and desperate

[royal quail]

Desperation is the greatest motivator

Japan did a lot of dick moves in the interwar period and WW2

Hell, I'm pretty sure they were smacking China even before WW1

Hang on, let me check

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War

Yep

This one was for control over Korea

[violet elk]

Part of the defenders facing the Allies on D-day were conscripted polish, russians and others from captured territories basically given no choice but to fight for the nazi's

[still plume]

@royal quail Hmm, so there were (forced) collaborators in other Japanese-occupied territories.
The equivalent for the Philippines was the "Makapili."

[royal quail]

Sort of

Looks like it wasn't just Indonesia

[still plume]

That name has a cheeky double-meaning

[royal quail]

Really?

[still plume]

yeah

[royal quail]

What is it?

I'm guessing it's something dirty

[still plume]

the full name translates to "Patriotic Society of Filipinos"

but

"pili" is "choose"

and since they're "choosing" to work with the enemy

[royal quail]

Ah

[still plume]

To be "Makapili" is to be a traitor

[royal quail]

I was expecting something along the lines of a joke name

[hearty warren]

"patriotic"

[royal quail]

Like Sillius Soddus

Or Biggus Dickus

[still plume]

nah lol

[royal quail]

I wonder if anyone will get that reference

[still plume]

whatever jokes there were made fun of the Japanese themselves

[hearty warren]

i get it

[royal quail]

From what movie is it?

[hearty warren]

i knew from meme

[royal quail]

Oh

[still plume]

or of the Mickey Mouse money they printed the shit out of

[royal quail]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx_G2a2hL6U

This is what I was referring to

[hearty warren]

anyway, educate me with Allied forces warcrimes pls? i almost heard none

[royal quail]

Hmmmm

They are mostly not talked about

[still plume]

yeah

History is written by the winners.

[royal quail]

I remembered one about a submarine (I forgot if it was German or Japanese) rescuing American sailors, only to be sunk by the Americans

I think that what it was

Also, the you could consider the dropping of the atomic bombs a war crime

But it was necessary

[still plume]

Technically, strategic bombing of industrial facilities in itself targets civilians so

whistles

You don't need a nuke to kill civilians using medium bombers

[hearty warren]

the nuke was necessary
it made the current Japan funny and weird

[royal quail]

lol

[still plume]

two nukes broke Japan

[royal quail]

Jokes aside, that was more due to the fact they were isolated for quite long

[hearty warren]

a way to scream to the world "MURICA FK YEAH" too

[hexed hornet]

now let's not make such insenstive jokes

[royal quail]

And cultural reasons

[still plume]

two more nukes can fix Japan

[royal quail]

Uh

There was the Fukushima nuclear power plant

Does that count?

[hearty warren]

is it related to ww2?

[still plume]

The issue with that facility was its location

[royal quail]

This channel talks about something other than WW2 more often than you think

We sometimes talk of recent history

[hearty warren]

oh icic, i thought we re still in ww2 topic

[still plume]

I mean, it's easier to dump wastewater into the ocean

But they really should've thought about building a decent seawall to protect it

[royal quail]

[hearty warren]

again the ocean must take the shit from humans...

[royal quail]

Dumping wastewater into the ocean is a bad idea if you're a country who relies on the sea a lot

I mean really, dumping nuclear waste into the sea is a really bad idea

[hearty warren]

send it to space

[royal quail]

If we have an efficient way to send shit to space, that would be a good choice

🤔

[smoky crane]

I have a friend in Rome named biggus dickus

I don’t think he finds that funny

[royal quail]

ppfffft

[hearty warren]

that name? in Italy, 2018?

[royal quail]

He has a wife you know?

[still plume]

Nah, wastewater from nuclear power plants does not necessarily contain a dangerous level of radioactive material

[royal quail]

you know what she's called?

[smoky crane]

Incontinentia

[royal quail]

INCONTINENTIA BUTTOCKS

[hexed hornet]

let's keep this on topic ye

[royal quail]

I see you are a man of culture as well @smoky crane

[smoky crane]

Why thank you

[hearty warren]

anyway, ive learn a lot about history from that funny YTube vid

history of the whole world and oversimplified ww2

[still plume]

...

[hearty warren]

[smoky crane]

Oversimplified is a nice channel

[still plume]

No, I didn't mean to "..." at that

I'm surprised you don't know how nuclear power plants work

[hearty warren]

it gave a lot of insight

and jokes

[still plume]

oof

[royal quail]

Lol

Oversimplified is pretty funny

Another good channel which talks about history is Extra Credits

They make some good ones

[hearty warren]

and if its about pacific showdown, that Enterprise from battle 360 is nice

[smoky crane]

I hear a lot about extra credits

Is battle 360 really good?

[stiff trout]

i kinda liked the first narrator from extra credits but not the second

and yeah its good

[smoky crane]

Neat I’ll check that out

[stiff trout]

#remembertaffy3

[hearty warren]

imagining the shipfu counterpart when they explained me about the events are so sad, especially when they said Enterprise was alone as CV against the Jap

and the Hornet sunk event

[stiff trout]

they literally put a sign though saying enterprise vs. japan

the crew was savage

[hearty warren]

imagining AL Hornet, dying while Northampton trying to rescue

[stiff trout]

its gonna be in the anime bois

[hearty warren]

or Yorktown

[stiff trout]

more sad moments in anime

top 10 anime deaths right there

[hearty warren]

akame ga kill, Shipfu version

[smoky crane]

Taffey 3?

That included uss Johnston right?

[stiff trout]

yeah

that was a crazy battle though

[smoky crane]

To think the Japanese were so close to attacking American supply lines only to be driven off by a smaller force

[ocean oriole]

Yamamoto plan was good

Pearl Harbor was a good thing

USS ship design was ugly

they punished

[visual minnow]

US ship design was solid

they looked like ships meant to do hard work

though certain interwar/WWI designs were pretty ugly across all nations, but usually for design reasons

like interwar Japanese DDs looking like slippers

[smoky crane]

cursed slippers

[visual minnow]

the transitional designs like Omaha were pretty ugly too

[smoky crane]

in your opinion what was the ugliest ship design?

[still plume]

HMS General Wolfe.

18" main gun turret mounted on what is basically a light cruiser.

[visual minnow]

honestly, British monitors in general

the turret is so ridiculously disproportionate to the rest of the ship

[smoky crane]

monitors are just big guns on a tiny boat

[topaz drift]

Tenryuu imo is pretty ugly

British monitors have the derpiness going for them, which I find adorable.

[visual minnow]

Tenryu-class is pretty low on the attractive list

the Kuma-Nagara-Sendai set of CLs did the destroyer leader look better

well, Sendai mainly

[topaz drift]

More attractive yeah

[visual minnow]

there's also a sort of ugly-attractive look for some ships

like Gangut after her massive refit or the Fusos with their pagodas

Akagi and Kaga looked pretty derp when they had their early triple-flight-deck configuration

[drowsy tiger]

all of the older ijn bbs got their command towers remade into those pagoda towers but fuso and yamashiros were the tallest and most ridiculous looking ones

kongo before she got her tower

with the tower

[keen comet]

I wonder if adding such tall structures mess with their seagoing capabilities.

[drowsy tiger]

it makes them slightly more top heavy but its very minimal in most cases

[visual minnow]

made them top-heavy

but then that was an issue for a lot of Japanese warships

[drowsy tiger]

fubuki got her hull widened after trials due to her top heaviness iirc

[keen comet]

Like how america s basically go full dakka with the Cleveland class and make her unstable on rough seas.

[visual minnow]

the Hatsuharu-class had to be heavily redesigned

basically tried to cram all of Fubuki's armaments and equipment onto a ship 300 tons lighter

[drowsy tiger]

ise before the tower and rear "flight deck" was mounted

[violet elk]

Top heavy ship design? Try the Atlanta-class...

[drowsy tiger]

atlanta has a very tall superstructure so... yea...

[violet elk]

Fun fact - The British Royal Navy doing a successful air raid on the Italian fleet at anchor gave the Japanese the idea for Pearl Harbour

Battle of Taranto

[smoky crane]

the one with illustrious?

[violet elk]

Yeah

Atlanta for reference

[rotund patio]

how top heavy was the bismarck?

[drowsy tiger]

with how high the waterline is on the side of the hull, probably not top heavy at all

[rotund patio]

so how much bigger was yamato to bismarck?

[drowsy tiger]

displacement wise: about 20k-25k tons
size wise: about 16m shorter length, 3m shorter beam and 1.7m shorter draft

[hazy tendon]

So, how do one judge ship design beauty(+ness)? Every ship look interesting or beautiful to my uniformed self.

[smoky crane]

I too would like to know. It’s hard for me to tell whether a design is good or not

[drowsy tiger]

i dont know exactly what makes ships beautiful in my eyes, it could be the uniformity, sleek lines, etc...
belfast is the most beautiful warship irl imo at least

[topaz drift]

For a ship to be beautiful for me, it would be symmetricalness, the style, sleekness, and if it can broadcast strength or authority

And Tenryuu just looks ehhhhh

[royal quail]

Aye, Belfast is a real beauty

[topaz drift]

That is.

Horrifying

[royal quail]

It's just an Irish girl enjoying a drink

[topaz drift]

[royal quail]

I was messing around with shaders to create a shitpost with too much effort; I ended up making one hell of a horror on accident

It wasn't supposed to be like this

[topaz drift]

[rose hornet]

Stolen

[royal quail]

Spread that image far and wide

Let everyone have nightmares of a loli licking beer in the dark

[tribal mortar]

woah

I wasn't expecting actual history of real ships

[tribal mortar]

Channel's called #history for a reason

[junior trench]

...

I heard more bad pop history above

Under the laws of the time, Allied bombing of German and Japanese cities, including the atomic bombs, did not constitute war crimes. The only ones to actually violate the laws at the time governing the bomardment of cities with aircraft or artillery were... The Germans and the Japanese.

Also, I heard someone say "history is written by the victors"

[subtle prawn]

I thought that the German and Japanese would’ve just rewritten history if they did win the war (even if it was impossible for them to)?

[keen comet]

To be fair, the Germans bombed the civilians first in London during the battle of britain, The RAF then retaliated and bombed Berlin, and everything went shit from there and bombing civilians become not-a-warcrime.

[junior trench]

Germans bombed Frampol

The Luftwaffe likely selected Frampol for an experimental bombing since the town had an extensive market square with a grid plan, making it appear as a large bullseye, and there were no anti-aircraft units located at Frampol

[keen comet]

While the atomic bomb is more of a cruel necessity.

[junior trench]

They literally bombed an undefended town with no military value because it came in a grid pattern for measuring bomb dispersion

[keen comet]

The Allies weren't in any mood to invade Japan.

[junior trench]

In his 1968 book, Augen am Himmel (Eyes on the Sky), German writer Wolfgang Schreyer wrote: "Frampol was chosen as an experimental object, because test bombers, flying at low speed, weren't endangered by AA fire. Also, the centrally placed town hall was an ideal orientation point for the crews. We watched possibility of orientation after visible signs, and also the size of village, what guaranteed that bombs nevertheless fall down on Frampol. From one side it should make easier the note of probe, from second side it should confirm the efficiency of used bombs."

Furthermore, German fighter pilots trained strafing techniques on refugees who were trying to flee from the city.

[keen comet]

And Neo-Nazis blames Britain for Bombing Civs in Berlin first.

Smh

[junior trench]

This is like, comic book levels of villain evil, except even worse because it's not just for the evulz

It's literally "how do we train these guys?"
"Have them bomb and strafe civvies?"

"approved"

[keen comet]

Well, why not?

[royal quail]

Looks like a really bad way to train your troops if you end up losing the war

[violet elk]

All this talk about German and Japanese war crimes just shows that history is written by the victors - nothing about the Allies war crimes and some of the less than right things pulled by their commanders.

Note I'm not saying the German or Japanese war crimes aren't worse (besides Russia...but that's Stalin so...) but few ever note the Allies weren't clean either. They just won the war so no-one ever makes a big deal about it.

[junior trench]

Abloo abloo Eisenhower's gorrillion

[drowsy tiger]

no one mentions the things the commanders did during ww1...

[violet elk]

Just as an example, I know (knew now really, he died a few years back 😦 ) an Italian man who was a POW for both the Germans and Americans in WW2...and he said he'd take 5 years as a German POW over 4 months as an American POW every time. He was in the Italian army and at the start of the war his unit refused to follow German orders - they were German not Italian why should they? His unit was charged with mutiny and he was kept as a POW from 1940 onwards. When the US 'liberated' the camp in 1945 they kept them there for a few months because they had no idea what to do with them...and those few months were worse than the entire time under German care.

Because WW1 in general was a shitshow. It's easier to name the few commanders who were not guilty than name those who were.

[keen comet]

Well, There is also the fact that German and Japanese started the war. Of course everyone's going to antagonize them when the war is over.

Shouldn't have started the bloody war

[violet elk]

Yeah true. there's a bit more too it than that, but basically true.

[junior trench]

Unsourced ancedotal evidence?

Discarded

Of course there's also the problem of no Italian forces being under German command in 1940

[still plume]

Ferdinand Foch has a really nice quote from his WW1 days.

Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.

Pretty much sums up how it went

[severe sage]

tsk

the german has no CV except Graf

it wont be long until they ran out of boats to add

[keen comet]

Well, The US Have Shit ton of ships

It's only a matter of time until they add the Essex-Class Yorktown and Hornet