history

[timber linden]

Most modern Germans would probably join the commies

[runic ermine]

Have you seen German political polls?

[timber linden]

.....

I will niether confirm nor deny that info

[runic ermine]

Well let's just say they're gonna be putting the H man's DNA to good use

[timber linden]

I mean the ss used arab soldiers but I bet that is not the angle you shooting for

[runic ermine]

Im talking about this

[timber linden]

I know what you talking about

[runic ermine]

Anyways Germany is gonna channel their inner... Prussia... eventually

[timber linden]

https://tenor.com/view/based-uh-hello-based-department-based-department-american-psycho-patrick-bateman-gif-22458382

https://tenor.com/view/bismarck-ottovonbismarck-gif-9657356

Wait....funny mustache man hated the prussia

[desert agate]

Prussia literally doesn’t exist anymore

Prussian culture and militarism are gone, dead and buried

The Allies made sure of that

[runic ermine]

Ok France

[shrewd pecan]

https://tenor.com/view/nermal-garfield-garfield-meme-nermal-dead-john-gif-18241118886265094705

oh that's uncritical Prussian/Bismarck simping in #history

[runic ermine]

No I actually haven't studied Prussia stuff me and @timber linden were talking about German political trends

Infact @timber linden was the one who brought up Bismarck

Wait this Prussia stuff just made me think, @spring briar did you learn about the Franco-Prussian war in school?

[subtle prawn]

He's not talking about you

[runic ermine]

He isnt?

[subtle prawn]

He's talking about the guy you were talking with

[runic ermine]

Do we know that for sure

Wait @desert agate do you hate Prussia or something?

[timber linden]

Franco Prussian war poisoned the minds of german high command for world War i. Germans almost got away with the "we can out mobilize the enemy ".

[runic ermine]

Also me personally, I think I was more of a France and Britain kid when I was first getting into history

[runic ermine]

I thought poisoned them in the sense of "We can use rail networks to beat France quickly"

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5y6i1Pru4s

[timber linden]

Basically the same thing, germans only had two real things in thier favor in Franco. Better rail and better arty.

[runic ermine]

I just realized that I should have put this upside-down

¿ƃuᴉɥʇǝɯos ɹo ɐᴉssnɹԀ ǝʇɐɥ noʎ op @desert agate

[desert agate]

You're not funny

[desert agate]

Prussian militarism started 2 of the deadliest wars in global history, including the number 1 deadliest

Prussia was dismantled as a political and cultural entity by the Allies in the aftermath of WW2, who recognised that Prussian militarism was only going to create revanchism in Germany, which could not be allowed

[desert agate]

German high command in WW1 was already poisoned
The Prussian heritage of that force created a high command which was delusional enough to believe that land meant victory
The final German spring offensive in 1918 proves just how much the Prussian ideas of how to fight and win wars, were so completely inflexible and created nearly 2 million casualties for nothing

The Germans deluded themselves and the environment that created those delusions in 1914 and in 1918 were fostered in the Prussian War College

[timber linden]

Spring offensive was a good final gambit, stormtrooper tatics plus all the troops they freed up in the east. Just plans fell apart with a failure of follow up. Would Germany had won the war, no because the commonwealth had more meat than the germans had ammo.

I am sure there have been some chinese civil wars that outranked those wars

During the siege of chinese city 60,000 where ate.....sixth time that happened

[desert agate]

Stormtrooper tactics very quickly found themselves ineffective against Allied defences. In fact the only Allied force that used trench raiding tactics effectively was the AIF, along with the CIF to a lesser extent

Tactics however do not change the disastrous planning that went into the Spring Offensive

Hindenburg, Ludendorff and the other German commanders genuinely believed that all they had to do was take enough land and the Allies would collapse, regardless of the long term strategic necessity of defending that land or its short term importance to the troops defending it

This is why despite creating 2 million casualties, the number of strategic locations the Germans actually took in their great push was minimal to the point where the Allies simply withdrew and then used the now overextended German lines to springboard their own Hundred Days offensive later in the year

The Hundred Days Offensive was in fact a far better operation, it was strategic, it was precise, each battle was fought not for the sake of merely taking land but to take land that the Germans cared about

Unlike the Germans, the Allies learned their lessons from the disastrous offensives at the Somme and Ypres and understood their consequences while German operational planning between 1915 and 1918 was basically unchanged

[remote monolith]

It was... really not

As hit said

The Stormtroopers made breakthrough yeah but they quickly lost cohesion and headway due to exhaustment and outrunning their support elements

Plus the four operations did not have clear strategic goals other than 'either get Paris or try to kill as many as possible'

The result is, when the Allies inevitably recovered, they quickly get pushed back

[narrow rover]

I mean someone noted the relative lack of corruption in West Germany might have been a remnant of it, so hard to say

Something like ~2 million German people died while evacuating Eastern Europe during WW2 but they can't all have been Prussian...

Militarism to such a level is pretty stupid anyway
Though looking at how countries that "unified" in the late 1800s went (Germany, Italy, heck maybe Japan) maybe it was a trend of the times.

[runic ermine]

Its the CEF not the CIF

[runic ermine]

Also fresh troops from the AEF arrived. Despite their inexperience they were belligerent and numerous

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pto-rcij9o

[brittle glacier]

Hypothetically…how granular could one get if one were to Balkanize Mainland West Taiwan?

[peak mango]

Based on modern politics, or historical factors?

[brittle glacier]

Political, geographical, historical and ethnic factors.

There should be more “Of China”s than Chinese Brown Water Naval assets.

In this hypothetical scenario.

[peak mango]

Look at the old governorships from the historical period. Example. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms#/media/File:Three_Kingdoms_timelapse.gif

[brittle glacier]

Neato

[peak mango]

Gives you some idea of the natural breakdowns.

The rest would be internal politics if there were somehow a breakdown of the central authority, so ... look at the PLA/PAP/Militia/CMC structures.

[narrow rover]

Tbh China isn't like Europe so the division isn't going to stick, albeit it does fall apart spectacularly and takes literal decades to get back together. Last one we saw was 1911~1949 I guess.

[peak mango]

Also look at the language maps..

Linguistic diversity is fairly related to ethnogroup diversity (even if say, all the speakers are still Han)

Given a splintering, you're more likely to either follow your same-language-group folks or remnant command structures (or really, both)

[narrow rover]

Even some Mandarin dialects aren't mutually intelligible

It's kind of inevitable given the size of China.

[peak mango]

I mean it's like french and italian...

[narrow rover]

I guess you can like... do what the French did, what the Germans did, and REALLY PUSH for standardization?

[peak mango]

Well yeah. That's what the CCP did with going with simplified and mandarin.

Actually the ROC, too.

[narrow rover]

It's kind of what you do to put a country together

[peak mango]

I'm sticking with Yue. (or Canto)

Because (reasons).

[narrow rover]

Like Japan also did in the Meiji era and the Kagoshima dialect just... died
Even though it was a straight up different language

....actually kind of unfortunate

[peak mango]

But anyway, any sort of balkanization is going to be due to a loss of central authority, with the breakdowns lines being geography, language, and remnant command authorities.

[narrow rover]

I don't think massive border changes or breakups of countries are ever going to happen in the next few hundred years, everything's too standardized now

[peak mango]

At least not without world ending catastrophes. That said.. USSR breakup, Yugo breakup, etc, did happen within the last century.

And you can see something like Iraq or Syria doing a breakup based on ethno lines.

[narrow rover]

Tbh the USSR did break up, but the territories they lost were mostly relatively recent stuff

Russia didn't split down Siberia.

For the same reasons I just cannot for the life of me imagine like, the US being split down the middle again or Bavaria breaking away from Germany, etc.

[peak mango]

Anywhere with relatively strong ethnic subgroups and weak central governence can have some chance.

[narrow rover]

To be fair ethnic nationalism can pop up out of frigging nowhere

[peak mango]

Well a lot of those bonds are preexisting.

[narrow rover]

On the other hand successful independence movements have

1. the backing of another country
2. extreme chaos on part of the ruling country
   E.g. post-WW2 independence movements only succeeded because the countries they were seeking independence from were exhausted by WW2.

[peak mango]

Look at, say, Uganda. Buganda, in fact, is a traditional african kingdom that is already somewhat self governing. While it's currently fully integrated, it might not always be the case. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buganda

[narrow rover]

It's also entirely possible for people that speak the same language/same ethnicity to not want to live in the same country out of political reasons (North/South Korea)

[peak mango]

First example that came to mind but there are other situations like that. Ex, Kurdistan.

[narrow rover]

E.g. if it's a long established dictatorship then someone trying to achieve democracy might realize seeking to straight up separate a part of it will be easier to do, etc

[peak mango]

Oh for sure.

Look at the ROC/PRC conflict.

[narrow rover]

To be fair, Taiwan and the mainland didn't speak the same language until recently 🙂
Early RoC Taiwan had a whole bunch of riots that usually started with an RoC soldier listening to someone speaking taiwanese hokkien/Japanese and beating him up for being a "traitor".

[peak mango]

Yup

[brittle glacier]

Damn

[desert agate]

Pedantry

[runic ermine]

Wait now that I think about it, why did you guys call your expeditionary force an "imperial force"

[desert agate]

Because Australia did not have a standing proper standing (only about 3'000 professional soldiers) army prior to WW1 due to a variety of cultural and political reasons. The defence of Australia was to be left to the militias and no army was to be sent overseas

The 1st and 2nd AIFs were established as separate military organisations to the militias, and the AIF and AMF continued to exist in both wars until 1944

It wasn't a case of the existing army sending an expedition overseas, it was an entirely new army being formed

[narrow rover]

America was looking at the disaster unfold, and considered intervention (Taiwan at this stage was on paper Japanese territory occupied by the NRA, ultimate fate to be decided at the peace conference), but then the Chinese nationalists started losing the civil war and they NEEDED Taiwan.

It's a VERY unique place.

Hainan was also held, but... well... Mao's sailboat spam proved too much

[burnt scarab]

If the NRA won the 2nd Civil War, things wouldnt have come to this

[narrow rover]

Eeeh... hard to say. There's not a lot of documents on this but the few that does exist seems to suggest the KMT would have gone down a non-aligned policy

Had they won on the mainland

So, essentially a third front to the cold war.

(If they're strong enough to be influential)

They'd probably try to further the US's "anti colonial" policy, try to kick the Brits out of Hong Kong etc while trying to "retake" their "lost territories"
The issue being a lot of these "lost territories" are straight up sovereign nations or someone else's holdings...

I'm almost certain they'd have a hand in the Vietnam War if it even happens in this scenario.

[peak mango]

I mean China literally translates to center nation.

[narrow rover]

Yea
It's an issue of how annoying they get

[peak mango]

😛 Very.

7000 years of history bruh and all that stuff.

[narrow rover]

There was definitely some concern that, the US and allies were defeating Japan only for China to take its place as an annoying regional hegemon...

Perhaps a bit too much worry, but China does have the most people in the world.

And everyone else in the region minus the guys that are losing a world war were colonies with the sole exception of Thailand
Whom the US didn't even consider fully sovereign

[peak mango]

Amusing how India isn't talked about in the same breath.

[narrow rover]

I mean Churchill wanted to keep India, so...

[peak mango]

I mean as far as population is concerned. That said, In/Pk is .. fun.

[narrow rover]

The Brits and Chinese having a spat at the Burma campaign is quite funny
Literally sabotaging a war effort because WE WANT INDIA vs WESTERN IMPERIALISTS BAD

...don't you guys have the Japanese on your doorstep?

[peak mango]

Althistory where the Brits somehow managed an allied, unified india..

[narrow rover]

...WW2 has to not happen iirc

Brits were broke after the war so they just, abandoned India in a way

[peak mango]

Oh it'd would have had to start way earlier than that.. with, say, the East India Company not being a bunch of wankers.

and India following a trajectory closer to Canada

[narrow rover]

I do wonder if decolonization would have been a much lengthier affair if everyone didn't exhaust themselves or lose their colonies as a direct result of losing WW2 (Italy, Japan, Germany didn't have colonies in the traditional sense after WW1).

[runic ermine]

So you guys were like America pre-War of 1812

Small standing army but a lot of regional militias who are kinda unprofessional

[runic ermine]

Interesting

[desert agate]

Officially yes but unofficially it may be considered somewhat suspicious how quickly many of the AMFs officers transferred to the AIF, and just how much equipment happened to be lying around in AMF warehouses, far more than the AMF would ever reasonably use but seemingly plenty enough to rapidly raise 5 divisions for an overseas expeditionary force

One might suspect that somebody had intentionally set up the AMF to maintain all of the equipment and at least some of the institutional knowledge that a far larger standing army would need in the event of an actual conflict

[runic ermine]

Canada had something similar but different. There was a militia for centuries (the first ones were formed all the way back in the 1500s in New France) with compulsory militia becoming a thing in 1669. The British also did similar militia stuff too. Speaking of, after the British conquered New France the militia system remained kinda the same, compulsory service was still a thing and in case of war, conscript people en masse or just call out for volunteers. Even when compulsory service was abolished in 1904 (though officers stuck around until late 1921), there were still enough volunteers for WW1, the Russian Civil War, WW2, the Korean War, and so on, with conscription only being needed twice and the majority of soldiers being volunteers (73%-80% of the 1.1 Million Canadians in military service were volunteers). Frankly in a lot cases Canadians seek action elsewhere. 25,000 to 40,000 Canadians volunteered to fight in Vietnam, of which 160ish died, 1,500 to 2,000 Canadians volunteered to fight in the Spanish Civil War of which 750 died. And Canadians are one of the largest foreign contingents in the "current events" of which 25 have died so far. (All of the above would make for great movies and mini series)

But WW1 was the start where it was seen that the Canadian military would need to become more professional in the long term

[runic ermine]

Wait this also makes me wonder, what about wars prior like the Boer Wars?

[desert agate]

Each of the individual colonies operated their own semi-professional militaries

5 of them even operated their own Navies, Victoria’s being the most powerful

All of the colonies sent troops to fight in the 2nd Boer War where they fought under British command, however while the troops were away fighting, in 1901 Australia federated, creating the Commonwealth that we know today

The colonial troops sent to fight in South Africa therefore went to fight as soldiers of their colonies, New South Welshmen, Queenslanders, Western Australians, etc and returned as Australians

The Australian Light Horse was developed from the colonies seeking to create actual professional armed forces, as opposed to the traditional militias the colonies had operated for decades

The Light Horse was developed on broadly similar grounds with collaboration between the colonies on equipment and traditions but obviously paid for by each colony

The Light Horse would later prove themselves as some of Australia’s greatest soldiers in WW1, being actual professional soldiers rather than the citizen soldiers of the AIF, participating in the charge of the Light Horse at Beersheba, one of the last decisive cavalry charges in history

[desert agate]

A little bit of sporting history to change things up
This Friday is day 1 of The Ashes, one of, if not the oldest professional sporting rivalies in world history

The cricket rivalry between Australia and England goes back to the earliest days of an Australian identity in the early 19th century, but it came into its own when the Australian team toured England in the summer of 1882

It was one of the first times in cricketing history that England had been beaten on home turf and it was a very close run match, as England needed only 10 runs to win

But after achieving just 2 runs, Englands final batsman was bowled and so the legend of the Ashes was born, as a satirical obituary declared that the ashes of English cricket would be brought to Australia

The rivalry would continue as in the next year Englands captain declared that he would recover those ashes, and England would win that series

The Ashes has been played biannualy for over 120 years, excepting gaps for the wars and it continues in 3 days time in Perth

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3m5wjoyyyti2l

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

🎉🐭 Happy Mickey Mouse Day! Today is Mickey's 97th birthday. 🐭🎉
Did you know Disney artists created 1,200+ military insignias during WWII? Here’s one for Marine Scout Bombing Squadron 245 featuring Mickey in action! 💥👊
#MickeyMouse #NavalHistory

Bluesky · Nov 18, 2025, 8:00 PM

[desert agate]

https://www.naa.gov.au/help-your-research/fact-sheets/sinking-hmas-sydney

OTD 84 years ago HMAS Sydney II was lost with all hands

Australia’s most decorated warship went down off the Western Australian coast after a close range duel with a German raider causing the greatest loss of life in the RANs history

They have no grave but the cruel sea,
No flowers lay at their head,
A rusting hulk is their tombstone,
Afast on the ocean bed.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them'.

Lest we forget

[remote monolith]

Man the Bu Ren Jia and Tiefutu type armors are ridiculously cool

It's funny how the Son deployed the former precisely to stop Khitan and Xia cavalry charges, only for the Jurchens to deploy the Tiefutu instead and rolled the Song all the way to the south

And that doesn't get to how utterly horrible the Song's military capabilities was

In 979 Emperor T’ai-tsung, acting against the advice of several highranking military commanders, made plans to ride the tide of national prestige that had followed the Sung’s conquest of the Northern Han. He planned to recover with a single stroke the Yen (modernHo-pei) and Y¨un (modern Shansi) regions ceded to the Liao by the Later Chin (936–47) earlier in the century. The Sung forces, exhausted after their battles with the Northern Han, mounted a long siege of the walled city of Yen-ching (Yu-chou, modern Peking), but failed to take the city. The Liao brought in reserve forces at the last stage of the siege and decisively defeated the Sung armies, and T’ai-tsung himself was struck by two arrows during the ensuing light. After this T’ai-tsung did not dare to undertake any military expeditions under his personal command; instead he remained deep within his palace and continuously issued impractical commands and compelled his frontline commanders to implement them.

In 986 the Sung mounted a new three-pronged northern offensive against the Liao, but every segment of it was crushed by the Liao defence and the valiant general Yang Yeh was killed in battle. After this the Sung did not launch any more attacks against the Liao and instead implemented only passive defensive measures; troops were deployed to defend cities along the border areas, and in the plains moats were dug and rice paddies constructed in an effort to hinder any possible cavalry attack by the Liao. This passive defense strategy was continued from the reign of T’ai-tsung until the end of the dynasty.

During the military crisis at the end of the Northern Sung, Teng Su (1091–1132) observed that the Jurchen army enjoyed a number of advantages over the Sung. The Jurchen were better able to control their troops because “their written communications are brief and fast; ours are prolix and slow.” Chu Hsi also frequently criticized the delays and bottlenecks that plagued Sung administration and bemoaned the contemporary excess of “empty paperwork.” He once saw a Military Affairs Commission dossier from the T’ai-tsu era and praised the “speed and simplicity” of its documentary process. His own age, he lamented, required three levels of administration and a chief councilor’s approval to appoint a minor functionary to hold a lamp during the emperor’s visits to the ancestral temple

Like, it's something of a miracle just how BAD they were

The Song basically only ever succeeded in military expansions during the pacification of the Southern Tang states, when they go up against the mobile Xia and Liao troops they keep getting trounced regularly

And afterwards they mostly stick to static, ponderous defenses relying on defensive complex and walled cities

And let me be clear, the Song had significant numbers and technological advantages

They're stupidly rich even by Chinese dynastic standards

Their armies totalled over a million men at their peak with top of the line weapons like fire lances, zhanmadaos and repeating crossbows plus crude cannons

They're just horrifically bad at grasping the actual strategizing part

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, it is by design

[remote monolith]

I know it's by design, they're absolutely afraid of military coup since Taizu did the same

[autumn sorrel]

First Song Emperor came to power through military coup so he know very well how much of threat uncheck military leader can do

[remote monolith]

And they also wanted to avoid the Jiedushis from happening again

To their credit, it worked, the Song almost never got any military disruption internally

Just so happens it also makes them hilariously impotent at tackling external threats

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, that system allowed Tang to rapidly expand but without an overwhelmingly strong Central Imperial Army like the Tang did, Song cannot do it.

[remote monolith]

Honestly it's simply more because of the quality of the generals themselves, the central Song army at its peak was a mighty 600k formation, the other 400k is provincial armies

But when you have career bureaucrats holding the reigns down to the lowest level of command, yeaaah

[autumn sorrel]

You have to look at this from another way, Song came very close to winning in this campaign. They underestimate the loyalty of Northern Han Chinese to the Liao and therefore faced stiffer resistance and Song Force lack the cavalry for recce and pitch field battle but even Liao found it hard to break Song Infantry square once they are in formation to support each other.

[remote monolith]

And that's precisely what I'm saying, effective weapons hampered by questionable leadership

That's not even going into the internal corruptions that often caused the weapons to disappear when needed

[autumn sorrel]

I am about to say corruption isn't that bad but then I remember how bad it really were

[remote monolith]

Top 10 in the whole of Chinese history probably, and that's saying something, all thanks to the insane bureaucratic system they put in place

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah but Late Song military defeats are actually hilarious had it not involve so many death civilians

[remote monolith]

To be fair, after the horrendous beatings they got from the Jurchens, the Song shaped up

Holding off the Mongols for 40 years was no mean feat

[narrow rover]

I mean to be fair a lot of Chinese armies didn't do well when sent on expeditions. It's not just the Song, but the Ming and Qing seems to have had similar issues.

[autumn sorrel]

Mind you, the reason for this success bc Southern Tang State quite literally are what Southern Song later became. Southern Tang had a very good chance to not only defend themselves but move north as well but their Emperor too chicken shit to even think of doing so.

[autumn sorrel]

Nah, early Ming and Qing Army are very competent

Early Ming is even good enough to beat the Mongol at strategic mobility

[remote monolith]

Neither were to the level of the Song yeah

[remote monolith]

Yeah pretty much, and that's with Taizu in command, since Taizu actually was pretty good

[autumn sorrel]

Song also lack a lot of traditional Horse breeding area. The collapsed of Old Jiedushi system see the rise of Western Xia which blocked Song access to not only the Silk Road but the only horse breeding ground that isn't Northern China.

[remote monolith]

Hence their focus on incredibly heavily armored infantry like the Burenjia

Plus a plethora of ranged weapons

[autumn sorrel]

Only place left that realistically can product quality Horse is Daili and their production will never enough to maintain a cavalry corp for Song.

[remote monolith]

The Song was one of those dynasties that's actually not much of a hegemon of the region

Their overall diplomatic reach was minimal, they couldn't project beyond the Hexi Corridor or the 16 Prefectures

And throughout their existence they had to contend with actual rivals they couldn't get rid of

Oh yeah and the Viet also managed to successfully beat the Song several times

Conversely their trading fleets went EVERYWHERE

The Song loved trade and kept encouraging it for revenue

[autumn sorrel]

Which can tell you how much profitable it was. A small part of it was spend on the military was already enough to maintain such a large force well equiped, meanwhile the rest turn Song into one of the most prosper period in Chine history

[remote monolith]

Although ultimately the military budget then went so high Song economy started straining and they had to come up with shit like paper money to keep up

But still the Song was so prosperous they basically blundered into a form of Proto-Capitalism

[autumn sorrel]

It is funny bc Song also have a very good Arsenal system that churned out weapon and black powder weapon reliably but they can never translate it into battlefield success via attritional warfare.

Not only that, their Powerful River fleet wasn't able to break the blockade around Xiangyang

[remote monolith]

It's like a minmax build that goes hard on eco and production but neglects military skills deliberately because they don't like the war aspect

[mental tapir]

I suppose Song is peak Potential Military™️

[remote monolith]

But the Song also mix it with some really aggressive diplomacy that tends to end with military disasters

[remote monolith]

This is stupidly accurate

They had the potential to have absolutely tough industrial army, but with an atrophied military officer class it's not happening

[autumn sorrel]

I feel being called out

[remote monolith]

We've all been there LMAO

[autumn sorrel]

Tbf, it turn out sometimes really good when I have reserve to immediately replace a catastrophic defeat

[mental tapir]

On an unrelated note, I was wondering why the US Navy in the 50s didn't all switch to J47s after the disasters that were the Westinghouse jets, but realised those were already in use in the FJ-2 Furies

[mental tapir]

Also TIL the F/A-18 Hornet (not the later Super Hornets) was a lighter aircraft than the F-4 Phantom

[timber linden]

That is like saying a honda civic is lighter than an 18 wheeler

[desert agate]

Yes it was a light fighter shockingly enough

The light part of light fighter would generally imply that the plane is light

[narrow rover]

Tbh a lot of premodern states accomplish it

Song, the Romans, Bengal
Usually what happens is that it gets invaded by another country and everything goes to shit

[peak mango]

Well yeah, the YF-17 was a competitor to the YF-16 in the lightweight fighter competition and was basically in the same lineage as the F-5.

[remote monolith]

Definitely not Romans or Bengal in terms of the degree of how the Song encouraged the Middle class and maritime trade with other regions, or how it thoroughly industrialized its output

Song steel production at several points basically outproduced the entire world and wouldn't be matched until the 19th century

And uniquely, this Song-style economy was actually continued under the Yuan, it was ironically the very Han Ming dynasty that put an end to the interests of international commerce

[narrow rover]

The Romans and Bengalis didn't achieve Song levels of success yes, but I'm just mentioning there are several pre modern states that did reach a phase of "proto industrialization" before going to shit

The thing with Britain and why it eventually achieved industrialization, well it's a frigging island and it's quite tough to send an invasion force over water

[remote monolith]

Still definitely not the Romans, given their disinterest in anything not relating to practical items

[narrow rover]

Tbh there's a reason I don't take Song supremacy that seriously
It was emphasized in Chinese scholarship as "proof" that China could have achieved industrialization on their own without foreign influence, without exactly a lot of evidence

[peak mango]

But muh expeditions to north america...

[narrow rover]

I mean the Vikings also reached North America

[peak mango]

Kidding. Retcon scholarship for sure.

[remote monolith]

That's the thing, the Song, despite their many advances, wasn't supreme, it was a deeply flawed society sacrificing many aspects to get what they had. They had serious military rivals that never managed to kill, they basically created the world's first paper based inflation, they inflated the Jinshi system so much there's chronic lack of job openings, and their bureaucracy is so mind shittingly slow the Emperors themselves complained about it

Like it was one of the few Chinese dynasties that actually got multiple peer enemies on equal terms for one

[peak mango]

Just test better and you'll get a job m'kay.

[remote monolith]

Not even guaranteed, there's a waiting time of seven years even when you get first rank on the exams

And the Song only pay you after the fourth year

[peak mango]

Sarcasm is hard to convey in text...

[remote monolith]

Did I mention senior officials also had means to reserve job openings for their cousins and shit on important days like the Emperor's birthday?

And that the quota increases by each rank?

So yeah, welcome to the Song

[peak mango]

I mean the confucian legalist ideals and all that, meeting reality.

[narrow rover]

I'm actually kind of convinced the imperial examinations were more trouble than worth for most Chinese dynasties
Joseon Korea had the same system. Modern scholarship is kind of torn, because some people acknowledge its value to the dynasty but others think it made society devote too much resources to ONE means of striking it big

[peak mango]

We just call it the college entrance exam these days lol.

[remote monolith]

They did their purpose

It's mainly to separate the ruling civilian class from the military

And for that it worked wonderfully

Every important position in Song society was ruled not by military officers, but scholar-officials

[peak mango]

And hypothetically meritocratic promotion.

[remote monolith]

very hypothetical

Remember what I said about Song weapons having a nasty habit of not actually being in the place they're supposed to be in times of crisis?

Something something the local prefect sold them off for extra income

[peak mango]

Yup.

[remote monolith]

Tbf can't say I blame them, the core income for bureaucrats was legit not that good

Even Ministers dabbled on real estate and trade businesses on the side

[peak mango]

Court intrigue discussions are incomplete without talking about eunuchs ... Heh

[remote monolith]

Remarkably they only started being a problem in the Song towards the end of the Northern Dynasty

Before that the Imperial Chancellor and the Censorate had enough clout to just bore eunuchs to death with inane paper procedures

[versed rampart]

History question (if I can ask)
How come Shia Islam never spread outside of the Middle East and South Asia Indonesia has some 1M Shias but not a lot compared to Pakistan

[remote monolith]

Actually a side effects of the Song being that much of an obsessed maniac for procedures and legal signatures is that the Song court was remarkably stable aa far as Chinese courts go

[remote monolith]

They did

Several Muslim dynasties outside of those regions were Shia

Bahmanids, Zayids, hell even Hulagu turned Shia

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3m5yq3ovn232u

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

#OTD in 1969, the all-Navy crew of Apollo 12 reached the moon. CDR Charles "Pete" Conrad and CDR Alan L. Bean became the 3rd and 4th men to walk on the surface while CDR Richard F. Gordon remained in lunar orbit in the Command Module "Yankee Clipper". #FlyNavy

Bluesky · Nov 19, 2025, 5:00 PM

[remote monolith]

For Indonesia it's more because the first Muslim preachers in Java were Sunnis, hence the negligible Shia presence, simple as that

[versed rampart]

Fair but what makes Shias unappealing in recent history to SEA or most of SS Africa? The only recent conversion I can think that was successful was in Nigeria outside its basically negligible

[remote monolith]

Sectarian violence probably had something to do with it, most Sunni communities in premodern times were violently hateful of Shia Muslims and vice versa after all

If you're talking recently though, I don't think most religions are in general getting a lot of new converts these days anyway so kind of a moot point

Anyway back to Shia, you kind have to remember that the Shia became majority in Iran mostly because the Savafids violently suppressed Sunni elements there for about 3 centuries, and the Ottomans were doing the same thing but the opposite for places like Egypt

Shia being a smaller branch already, and you probably can already see why it has limited reach without the ability to do forced converts and suppression over long periods of time

[versed rampart]

Would you also say there is a theological reason too?

Like the imamite

[remote monolith]

Er, well considering Ali as the only legitimate of the Khulafaurasyidin for the Shia, yeah pretty much

Also different Sunni branches was already persecuting each other over different Ulama rulings so

When the fundamental difference is already that big theologically you bet your ass there's gonna be blood

The whole Mahdi business is a factor too for Twelvers

Sunni generally doesn't buy in Mahdi stuff while afaik Twelvers Shia very much made him a central pillar

But don't take my Sunni word for it, lots of Sunni basically have incorporated the concept of Mahdi on their worldview these days

[versed rampart]

Iirc the Shia idea of Mahdi is that he is alive and in hiding

[remote monolith]

As far as I'm aware yeah, and that he'll come down during the Apocalypse to slay Dajjal

Or at least that's my understanding, could be different for Shia

Of course that didn't stop a bunch of Mahdis from popping up around the world throughout history

[autumn sorrel]

I wouldn't say stable. Infighting was one of the biggest reason leading to the fall of Xiangyang and later defection of the Lu Family to the Mongol.

Ironically, Song attempts to suppress the military somehow lead to few noble family have major influence in the Army. They may still under heavy restriction of the bureaucrats but the fact that major Chinese stronghold and forts are under command of people sharing the same family name meant that if the Emperor did something stupid like trying to prosecute them then you will see mass defection bc how Chinese Law works in punish family members for simply sharing the same blood

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah but Song still have military families that served generations in the Army. The bureaucrats have absolute control in the interior but it tend to be private family Armies that fought in the frontier.

[remote monolith]

Better than the kind of shenanigans experienced in the Han or hell, even Qing courts still

[remote monolith]

But they were still very much pushed to the fringes and had fairly limited opportunities

Military position in general was not high and not given a lot of the benefits gained from climbing the civil ladder

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, Song Emperor are notorious for being incompetent buffoon at best of time and even downright treasonous coward at worst but rarely did palace coup happen

[remote monolith]

This is Shenzong slander and I do no stand for it smh

My boy tried his best, just so happens while he's a great reformer he's a dogshit military man

[autumn sorrel]

Doesn't help the fact that unlike previous dynasty, civil servant copy paste battle strategy from history book instead of you know, use a map

[autumn sorrel]

Nah, I am not criticize Shenzong, more like Gaozong

[remote monolith]

Ok him I completely agree, Gaozong was a shitass

[autumn sorrel]

I am not like other who think Yue Fei should be allowed free reign to move north bc frankly he still lack the cavalry corp to succeed in such endeavor but Gaozong killing him is a major blunder

[peak mango]

"That wasn't on the test!"

[burnt scarab]

Yue Fei mentioned !

[terse mesa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeCPwgJTYnE

[burnt scarab]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uh8UR4cPwMQ

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TccLLe2y9yA

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQiQJAmdZig

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOMs3WB2OB8

[timber linden]

https://youtube.com/shorts/gi1IUfWVYHA?si=oU92KNbXgjF3icVV

[zealous vine]

How often were AA guns good at picking off unshielded structures and men in naval battles?

I recently watched Greyhound and saw this scene of the Fletcher being harassed by a U-boat's AA gun, penning the bridge

[junior trench]

almost never because those ranges rarely happen

notable exceptions include the bar room brawls called the Naval Battles of Guadalcanal

and multiple actual escort vs submarine engagements

some of which involved ramming and repelling boarders

[zealous vine]

Ah, ty!

Reminds me of Laffey and Hiei

[sullen canyon]

Laffey I believe used their AA guns on Hiei to clear her deck of sailors since she was pretty much too close for normal guns and torpedoes if memory serves correctly

[burnt scarab]

I've seen this one before

[narrow rover]

Honestly an utter miracle Hiei's secondaries just didn't evaporate Laffey, considering they were LITERALLY at chair throwing range

[junior trench]

that would require the director for those essentially blind casemate guns to be able to aim at Laffey

[narrow rover]

I mean when you're at a range where even blind shots can probably hit each other

Mussolini grindset, simply build a mosque in Rome

Iirc Laffey is also the ship that survived a concentrated Kamikaze barrage off Okinawa. In a battle between the angriest Japanese men and the angriest DD... the destroyer won

Something like 80 kamikazes thrown at it

[frozen kestrel]

Bit of a dumb question, but the P-class (Adalbert and Heinrich), are, in essence, just bigger Deutschlands, right?

[versed rampart]

it makes sense now
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_of_Islam_(Mussolini)

[narrow rover]

Yea the Axis obsession with Islam is actually hilarious

You even had a dude in Japan called Okawa Shumei who was obsessed with the Quran

[eternal veldt]

Not the same ship - Laffey 459 immediately ate a 14" shell after her knife fight and subsequently finished off by Teruzuki and Yukikaze.

[versed rampart]

it was political despite that

[narrow rover]

Oof, wrong ship

[versed rampart]

like Nazi Germany and Japan had Muslim allies and soliders so there had to appeal somehow (Bosniaks, Indonesians, some Indians and Arabs)

[eternal veldt]

Hiei was being targetted heavily in the chaotic engagement of Guadalcanal - her massive searchlight towers were a primary target

[narrow rover]

Shumei Okawa might have been genuinely interested in the stuff
He's the guy with the... dubious honor of being one of the very few Japanese civilians tried for war crimes. He didn't do anything really so wasn't executed but he translated the Quran into Japanese during his time in jail, and said translation is still used to this day

[eternal veldt]

In an environment that is unpredictable and under stress, there really isn't much the casemates could do.

[versed rampart]

he was an exception tbf

i doubt the axis would be amazing to muslims if they won (Japan was proving they werent when they occupied SEA and china)

[narrow rover]

I mean they can't win anyway so that's kind of out of the question

[versed rampart]

just saying a hypothetical 😭

[narrow rover]

Yea
It kind of depends on which Axis country but all of them wanted a totalitarian state in the end with Germany being the most extreme, so it's hard to imagine any minority population would have uhh... been particularly well off

[versed rampart]

WW2 in the end really benefited nobody

[narrow rover]

I guess it did create a massive anti war sentiment

And people started taking human rights more seriously

Though to be honest a global war wasn't needed for any of this

The two world wars were such a bonkers event I honestly think the gods were just bored one day and decided what would happen if the world had a free for all. Twice.

I mean I'm divided. Without WW2, Korean independence would either not happen or be delayed by decades.

Like if you look at the rate of "Japanification" that was happening in Korea over just 10~20 years (Japan before like 1920 had no real plan for what to do with Korea) it's actually scary. Korea and Japan shares a script (at the time at least) and the language is actually quite compatible (at least a lot more than say, French and Berber), so policies to erode Korea's national identity, once implemented was absolutely breakneck pace

If that had continued say, into the 1960s there simply wouldn't be a Korea left.

[desert agate]

Nazi German allies
Bosniaks

Pick one buddy

[versed rampart]

You do know there were Bosniaks in the Nazi army and involved in thr Ustase?

It's a Google search away

[desert agate]

Axis involvement with Muslim nations was basically just an effort to inspire a 2nd Arab revolt in Egypt

[versed rampart]

Which is what I said

[desert agate]

Except all the times the Ustace fought and massacred Muslims

I’ve actually met a few Ustace and their descendants and their views on Muslims do not bear repeating in this channel

[versed rampart]

Still doesn't change what I said and I said there were Bosniaks involved not that most were supportive

[peak mango]

There were also Indians in the german (SS) forces for much the same (geopolitical) reasons.

Also ...

Cossacks, Latvians, Estonians, Ukranians, Finns, Norweigans ... Gee, I wonder if there was a reason. Maybe 'enemy of my (USSR) enemy' is sorta my friend (for now)...

[remote monolith]

They ramped up on the foreign recruitment the moment they saw the Allied meat grinder coming on their way

[peak mango]

Some was it was long before (well, 1941) like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Legion from indian independence movement folks.

[remote monolith]

I know, just sayin, they walked back a lot on the whole racial purity thing when the writings on the wall started appearing like they're a guest at Belshazzar's feast

[autumn sorrel]

It still funny to me the length of mental gymnastics Himmler went through just to justify Serbs and Ukrainian as Aryan adjacent

[versed rampart]

it was cope so when the nazis win they would just do a 180

[desert agate]

https://x.com/tommorris32/status/1992072574403276889?s=46

Tom Morris (@tommorris32)

A Test cricket first today.

Across ~2,800 Tests and 148 years, this is the first time the score has been 1-0 in each of the first three innings of a match.

@SEN_Cricket @1116sen

X · Nov 22, 2025, 3:28 AM

Sporting history was made today

[velvet flume]

Is Gouden Leuww's Secondary gun still non existent?

the Twin 120mm/45 Bofors?

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZtFl8PMR-A

[narrow rover]

Removing Saddam was not a bad idea but goddamn the followup sucked balls.

[little palm]

It's a Gold AA gun, either in research or opsi

[remote monolith]

https://vxtwitter.com/misterzhonghua/status/1991776693896507590?t=B59FxoLryojYOAngvVe4FA&s=19

zhonghuaxiansheng 🇨🇳✝ (@misterzhonghua)

DUDE
DUDE
TURN ON THE NEWS. ANY SCROLL. THEY FOUND THE SHIJING

QRT: MuseumsChina
🥳A thrilling breakthrough in Chinese archaeology and literature! Bamboo slips from the Marquis of Haihun tomb in Jiangxi province have revealed the first known complete version of The Book of Songs (Shi Jing), dating to the Qin (221-206 BC) and Han (206 BC-AD 220) dynasties.📜

📌NOTICE: The gallery dedicated to books and bamboo slips at the museum built in the National Archaeological Site Park for Nanchang Han Dynasty Haihun Fief Site is now closed for renovation. It will reopen next year with newly conserved pieces on display. Stay tuned!

Learn more🔎:

vxTwitter / fixvx · Nov 21, 2025, 7:52 AM

the Marquis of Haihun is finally good for at least one thing

[timber linden]

https://tenor.com/view/cooking-cook-money-money-money-money-money-money-gif-16670048503852599108

[runic ermine]

Also Arabs

Free Arabian Legion

[narrow rover]

A reminder that Hitler once suggested he send an army for britain to fight the Japanese with

Yea uhh, I guess you understand why the Axis couldn't win here

[spring briar]

y u got an emote like that

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFZiHrCR1OM

[tight notch]

[shrewd pecan]

https://tenor.com/view/nermal-garfield-garfield-meme-nermal-dead-john-gif-18241118886265094705

[runic ermine]

What?

[timber linden]

1930's german was more close to china than japan

[shrewd pecan]

I more reacting to that statement

followed up by the wehraboo emote

[narrow rover]

I mean it's the emote for Germany dying

[narrow rover]

Discord Nitro and being in about 100 servers

[eternal tapir]

I have a question regarding this. I got this for my birthday today and after reading this I wonder was Bismarck actually sunk like britsh claim or was she was scutlled, I know it was heated debate and I saw documentaries that didn't conclude on that matter so does anybody know here. My personall opinion doesn't matter since I am not knowledgable enough on this matter but I doubt that it was black and white scenario, the british may not have been entirely responsible for sinking the Bismarck.

[remote monolith]

even if she was not sunk by the British, she was already mission killed to submission by the task force sent to hunt her

@spiral cedar has been studying the specifics of the battle far better than anyone here, but the basic gist of it is that when the British caught up to her, they proceeded to completely pound her and disabled her ability to fight without too much difficulties. Whether after that the crew scuttled her or sunk her is irrelevant to the result, that is she's stuck in the waters, couldn't escape, and had been so thoroughly wrecked her value to the Kriegsmarine is dead

[eternal veldt]

Per my memory of earlier discussions on this channel, Bismarck is already suffering from progressive flooding by the time the orders to scuttle were delivered

In other words, the ship was already taking on water from the damage done by the RN, and rendered combat ineffective by the destruction of her fire control equipment and thereafter, the weaponry themselves

[spiral cedar]

The important part here is that they aren't mutually exclusive. Many ships were scuttled, such as Akagi, USS Hornet, and even USS Johnston. No one quibbles about credit for the loss of those ships. The reality is that ships don't simply explode and roll over once they are unsalvageable, as if they're video game units that have zero HP. Unless something catastrophic happens (think HMS Hood, or HMS Barham) that causes them to sink in a few minutes, big ships (cruiser and up) usually take hours to sink from progressive flooding. As the USN put it in their damage report analysis:

It is an excellent example of what may be termed a general rule for damage primarily involving flooding which has been derived from many cases of war experience, namely,

IF THE SHIP DOES NOT SINK WITHIN A VERY FEW MINUTES AFTER DAMAGE. SHE PROBABLY WILL SURVIVE FOR SEVERAL HOURS.

Loss of NORTHAMPTON by progressive flooding also parallels other war experience which has shown that,

CASES OF LOSS BY BODILY SINKAGE, PLUNGING OR CAPSIZING SEVERAL HOURS AFTER DAMAGE HAVE BEEN ENTIRELY ATTRIBUTABLE TO PROGRESSIVE FLOODING.

Kirishima, for example, was fatally wounded by USS Washington in less than 10 minutes of shooting, but she only rolled over and sank nearly 3 hours later.

Bismarck took a bit under 2 hours to sink, from the first shell fired by Rodney at 0847 to finally finishing capsizing at 1040. By 0931, we should note, Bismarck had no main battery left, her damcon teams had ceased recording flooding, she was listing to port, and some of her crew had already begun trying to abandon ship. Survivor testimony and the relatively limited implosion damage suggests at least some of her crew deliberately opened scuttles and set timed scuttling charges as they evacuated, but they were abandoning ship because British shells had destroyed her main battery and she could no longer move. She was slowly sinking, but the Germans likely sped up the process while abandoning ship (scuttling being the default action to take while abandoning ship in proximity to the enemy). In any case, her stern was awash and she was clearly sinking at 1000, and the British started torpedoing her at 1010, so whether or not she was scuttled just influences how fast she sank, not whether or not she would sink.

[eternal tapir]

Thanks for a detailed explanation and that's what's been on my mind actually. The ship was allready done for and speeding up the process was the best option to deprive the enemy of information or technology that may be captured from remaining of the ship.

[narrow rover]

Honestly the near point blank shellfire probably slowed her demise because the shells weren't really hitting the waterline at that range

[runic ermine]

Does anybody wanna talk about Commonwealth troops in the Second Boer War?

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZC8C7_u0HM

[narrow rover]

Probably should have just pulled out

[autumn sorrel]

Algeria was consider a part of Metropolitan France and they had a lot of Francophone and French descent citizens. Pulling out early was never an option

[versed rampart]

With all the flack the British get, France needs more of it they were fighting until even this decade to keep their influence in Africa

[desert agate]

French neocolonialism is beyond disgusting

Inarguably one of the greatest shames of the modern Western democracies

[versed rampart]

Biggest shame is support for Israel

[autumn sorrel]

I'd argue that unlimited intervention anytime something remotely Communism popped up but then I would also blame Communist for spreading their "revolutionary" idea anytime they feel like it.

[remote monolith]

Xiphactinus lowkey is a lot scarier than even some bigger predators bruh

the head part is fucking demonic

also apparently its also ludicrously voracious because we've found several Xiphactinus that died trying to eat something about half its size whole

[spring briar]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Sumter

Heh
TIL noone actually died at fort Sumter

Except for an uma

07

[autumn sorrel]

No doubt due to fort Commander realized how precarious his position was, being attack from land position instead from the Sea, therefore he didn't order the manning of the Fort heavier guns, which are exposed to arcing fire, instead use guns that are better position and have better covers.

[spring briar]

Still

No casualties is crazy

[narrow rover]

Eh, sunk cost fallacy

It can cause absolutely bizarre things, like throwing away your entire 50+ year colonial gains for an unwinnable war

(Cough Japan cough)

[spring briar]

[narrow rover]

Hoshi "Aiki" Tetsuo was a Japanese soldier arrested and executed for war crimes in Burma

Dude was... bizarre, apparently was so enamored with a religious figure named Ueshiba Morihei that he changed his name to reflect it "Aiki", and later spent his time guarding a PoW camp where he routinely brutalized PoWs as martial arts practice.

[white rose]

Did the Japanese ever know about/attempt to implement steam catapults on aircraft carriers during the war?

[autumn sorrel]

They do, but mostly on Army Carriers

[remote monolith]

Just discovered I've been spending half a week in a videogame with the fucking Emperor Taizu moonlighting as a vagrant for shit and gigglee

[white rose]

Army carriers?

[narrow rover]

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/敵前逃亡

Seems like WW2 Japan also simply executed soldiers that "fled the battlefield".

All reports on court martials were destroyed in 1945. But it seems like there were over 5000 executions in 1944 alone. We don't know if how many of those were actually a result of someone running away from the battlefield.

Stories about the Soviet Union but REAL

[desert agate]

You are aware that France is still in Africa right?

[desert agate]

The Japanese army had aircraft carriers

[narrow rover]

Yes
But it's not like, trying to hold onto Algeria

[white rose]

Which ones?

[junior trench]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Japanese_Army_Railways_and_Shipping_Section#Landing_craft_carriers

[narrow rover]

It wasn't the worst idea but also really stupid

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_landing_craft_carrier_Akitsu_Maru

they essentially functioned like LHDs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_craft_carrier

[narrow rover]

The rikusentai deserves a lot more mention than it does tbh

Probably did like 50% of the work at Shanghai

[sullen canyon]

When the Army wants to muscle their way into Navy territory I see

[subtle prawn]

The IJA and the IJN never had a good relationship with each other

[sullen canyon]

That would explain things for the most part

[autumn sorrel]

Lol, let me guess, you let the Emperor visit the brothels?

[remote monolith]

nah nothing of the sort

just kinda caught off-guard even though said video game was directly set during the opening days of the Song]

there's a lot of mentions about Khitan invasions, the Southern Tang, Tiefutus and so forth

[narrow rover]

Apparantly a Japanese soldier.

😢

[white rose]

So where are the catapults on these, as one claimed?

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2025/11/25/navy-cancels-constellation-class-frigate-program-considering-new-small-surface-combatants

[narrow rover]

Noooooooooooo....

[lime scarab]

Would you consider this a good thing

[subtle prawn]

No

[lime scarab]

May I ask why?

[subtle prawn]

The price of those two ships that will still be built will balloon very high because costs will be spread over only two as opposed to over however many they originally wanted to procure.

[autumn sorrel]

Ok, what the actual fuck

[narrow burrow]

This happened with zumwalt

[subtle prawn]

I'm aware of what happened with Zumwalt

[narrow burrow]

I think zumwalt is friend shaped

[lime scarab]

Are you upset about the news

[remote monolith]

Thinking about how there's a plausible scenario where the Japanese just loses 100,000+ men at Rabaul by the volcano annihilating the entire base

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3m6igyvilwg25

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

#OTD in 1961, USS Enterprise was commissioned, becoming the world's first nuclear-powered aircraft carrier. CVN-65 was the eighth U.S. naval vessel to bear the name Enterprise. The Gerald R. Ford-class carrier CVN-80 currently under construction will continue the tradition.

Bluesky · Nov 25, 2025, 11:00 PM

[runic ermine]

Does anybody wanna talk about Commonwealth troops in the Second Boer War?

There isn't a lot of good videos on YouTube about them

[mental tapir]

How long until even the rest of the Gerald R Ford is cancelled /j

[autumn sorrel]

Yes, I love FREMM and USN complete blundered it

[autumn sorrel]

Probably not but no more Electric Catapult, back to Steam now

[autumn sorrel]

Problem with Zumwalt is that by the time it was launched, they really don't know what to do with them but Constellation are what USN desperately needed right now but they keep adding and changing the design so instead of you fast building a new class of Frigate, you only have 2 overbudget and way too expensive hulls with nothing else to replace them.

And they will no doubt go back to decide which designs from those American shipyard will replace the Constellation, which mean yrs before anything else got build other than Burke.

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, Taizu was famous for being on the battlefield most of the time and a workaholic. But the thought of him fucking around as a beggar quite funny tho.

[mental tapir]

American century of humiliation beginning frfr

[autumn sorrel]

Honestly, I am not against going back to Steam but abandon Electric Cat and favor stupid shit is big no no

[peak mango]

Tbh I want hulls but idk, USN-ized FREMM wasn't ideal.

[peak mango]

IKR ... at that cost we could just have more zumwalts.

[peak mango]

Yeah pretty much.

That said, sunk cost blahblahblah. Also what do we really need for warfighting.

[peak mango]

more burkes. ... kek

[peak mango]

Goes back to a capabilities and needs question.

Meanwhile type 054 printer goes brrr.

[shrewd pecan]

another procurement disaster

ugh probably would of been better off just redoing the construction contracts to more yards

[autumn sorrel]

You saying that and Congress will turn it into funding for the current yard, which will go nowhere, again

[shrewd pecan]

like

they did this with the JTLV

if the yard ain't gonna meet its end of the contracts

go to another yard that will

now we're gonna be stuck with 2 super expensive frigates

that don't have commonality with any other hull in the fleet

[autumn sorrel]

It is LCS all over again and this time it is worse

I just don't get it, the rest of NATO done it correctly with a lot of their Frigate and Corvette design but USN just so anathema with adopting foreign design and too much overconfident in US yard ability to deliver that they are literally screw in the next decade or so.

[desert agate]

I have a solution to the USNs need for an off the shelf frigate

[peak mango]

shoulda just made more zumwalts 😛

[peak mango]

It's not the yards, it's the requirement creep the USN keeps adding.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHtx4obL8I0

[zealous vine]

How possible is it that crews could see enemy torps launching from their destroyers?

[spiral cedar]

Very possible, at least at night. There were plenty of instances of crews spotting the flashes of enemy torpedo launches at night and taking action as a result. The IJN put some emphasis on hiding the flash to reduce the likelihood of their torpedo launches revealing their position

During the day, usually you just assume that if the enemy DD noticeably changes course within torpedo range, she's probably just launched torpedoes and you should take evasive maneuvers

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/Saab/status/1993706429899837655

Saab (@Saab)

The Swedish government's offer of Saab’s A26 submarines to Poland has been selected by the Polish government to replace the current Kilo-class.
︀︀Read more here: www.saab.com/newsroom/press-releases/2025/sweden-and-saab-selected-for-polands-new-submarines
︀︀#A26 #Submarines #SuperiorAtSea

**💬 26 🔁 141 ❤️ 1.1K 👁️ 45.8K **

FxTwitter · Nov 26, 2025, 3:40 PM

[subtle prawn]

In the last competition, the T26 didn't qualify because it wasn't in-service with anyone yet

[junior trench]

It's also not built to USN standards and is frankly poorly equipped for the modern AAW threat environment

[subtle prawn]

Really? I seem to recall there being some interest in procuring it from some in the USN

[runic ermine]

Does anybody wanna talk about Commonwealth troops in the Second Boer War?

[spiral cedar]

You can just post a writeup; no need to wait for an interlocutor especially given how long you've been waiting

[junior trench]

in the sense that it would come with the obligatory redesign to fit the needed AAW suite and desired robustness, yes

[runic ermine]

So I can just talk?

Well I start it tomorrow because it's late

And yes, I will have pictures too

[autumn sorrel]

Isn't Spanish F100 also in competition as well? The class seem have more American component than other proposal so why didn't they choose it?

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah but F100 have Aegis system and already a heavy AAW ship

[junior trench]

see above

[autumn sorrel]

So what does they want more than Aegis and nearly 100 SAMs?

[junior trench]

the F100 doesn't carry nearly 100 SAMs

the wiki stat card is weird

and again

see above

and read the whole sentence

[autumn sorrel]

So not enough robustness then?

[subtle prawn]

I was under the impression the T26 was more robust compared to most other European ships

[junior trench]

haha

no

it still doesn't meet USN standards

those standards are written in blood and it's kind of baffling that other navies are willing to cut the corner on it

[autumn sorrel]

Well, those standards were clearly throw out during the early day of LCSs program.

[junior trench]

not worth it

[autumn sorrel]

So let me get this straight, USN is willing to cut corner and lower their standard to churn out LCS but when they need to build fast a fleet of frigate, they decided to modified an already exist hull even more bc "not robust enough" and then complained about delay and cost overrun?

[subtle prawn]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/fresh-halt-to-ajax-training-after-30-troops-unwell/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVkwQO3HdH4

[narrow rover]

Japan really made sure to fuck up the rest of Asia on its way back home lol
INFINITE RIFLES
FOR EVERYONE

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNVs-q_GhjE

[runic ermine]

I didn't know that there was a Canadian killed during the French Revolution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/André_Grasset

[spring briar]

Nord ACAM 5301
French early SAM

[autumn sorrel]

Pointy

[narrow rover]

Map of China, 1935
Yellow (Japanese controlled)
Green (warlords the Japanese bribed)
Gray (KMT)
Pink (CCP)

[peak mango]

Basically.

[mental tapir]

https://youtu.be/zvgpD9L7FIQ

[narrow rover]

"Soldier spirit insertion rod"

No it's not gay, it was used to beat soldiers in the IJA

[runic ermine]

Is that what it actually says?

[narrow rover]

Yes

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/navalnews.com/post/3m6pxb32los2t

Naval News (@navalnews.com)

The Royal Australian Air Force will be the first foreign operator of the advanced AIM-260A JATM air-to-air missile, according to U.S. sources 🇦🇺
By @cjohnston.bsky.social
www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2...

-# USA Approves First AIM-260A JATM Export to Australia - Naval News
The Royal Australian Air Force will be the first foreign operator of the advanced AIM-260A JATM air-to-air missile according to U.S. sources speaking to Naval News on condition of anonymity. The sale ...

Bluesky · Nov 28, 2025, 10:39 PM

[desert agate]

Well no doubt we helped test it

[peak mango]

F-20 time

[versed rampart]

What do you guys think of Cody/Alternate History Hub?

[desert agate]

He’s an internet funnyman and not much more

[remote monolith]

he's better as a movie reviewer, and significantly more hilarious

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk4lbPPPaK4

[white rose]

For some reason, this website (https://alchetron.com/Japanese-aircraft-carrier-Akitsu-Maru) depicts the Japanese Landing Craft Carrier Akitsu Maru with a steam catapult on the aft-port of the short flight deck. Which is weird, because Japanese never used steam catapults and all other depictions of Akitsu Maru do not have this.

[junior trench]

points at gunpowder catapults which were used on other Japanese ships

[narrow rover]

Poverty catapults man

[narrow rover]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_destroyer_Mölders

Probably the only warship named after a frigging pilot of all people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Mölders

Also... died in a plane crash

Bruh

[runic ermine]

Guys ill get to the Commonwealth Boer war stuff im just busy rn

Exam season is coming up

[subtle prawn]

Objection, George H. W. Bush, USS Wright

[runic ermine]

Really interesting thing to post under what I posted

[spring briar]

?

[narrow rover]

Bit of a bizarre question but does anyone have a diagram of how early aircraft toilets worked?

Seems like even very early airliners in the 1920s sometimes had those, but I doubt it was the vacuum flush toilets on modern ones.

[runic ermine]

Im joking because it looks like the missiles you posted are pointing up at what I posted

[spring briar]

Nah

Nothing but respect for dude

[narrow rover]

Apparently anybody that doesn't miss the USSR doesn't have a heart, but those that actually want it back doesn't have a brain

[peak mango]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_lavatory ... so anything from a hole in the hull to buckets to standard flushers.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1O9TJ48oQE

[autumn sorrel]

"Churchill of Asia"

I must admit, I just now found out how much US swoon over Diem

[frozen kestrel]

<@&460646206851252224> sieze them

[frozen kestrel]

why is the text irradiated?

[runic ermine]

Based

[autumn sorrel]

Since when you a War Criminal?

[narrow rover]

my dad is a war criminal - some Serbian

On the topic of war crimes

I got a new book explaining war crimes

Should be a decent bedtime read

[frozen kestrel]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-j-jonah-jameson-laugh-gif-19422232

honestly dude, i've had that as my server nickname basically since I got here

[autumn sorrel]

I never really notice

[frozen kestrel]

it's all good, i only talk here, like, once every three months

[mental tapir]

https://fixupx.com/NavalInstitute/status/1995595046175867239

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1950, ENS Denzel Crist managed to escape his burning AD-4 Skyraider after the plane smacked the deck and broke apart while landing in rough weather on USS Philippine Sea. A week later, Crist had another close call when he was shot down but rescued near Chosin Reservoir.

**💬 5 🔁 42 ❤️ 308 👁️ 14.6K **

▶ Play video

FixupX · Dec 1, 2025, 8:45 PM

[narrow rover]

IDK who was it, but there was this Luftwaffe pilot that suffered 3rd degree burns all over his body, survived, and later joined the postwar German air force

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Steinhoff

Yup, this guy

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/BoeingDefense/status/1995553481692692825

Boeing Defense (@BoeingDefense)

30 Super years in flight!
︀︀
︀︀Thirty years ago, the first F/A-18 Super Hornet took to the skies for the first time. We're thankful for the thousands of #TeamBoeing employees, partners and suppliers who keep the Super Hornet modernized and evolving, delivering unmatched capabilities to naval aviation for decades to come.

**💬 15 🔁 171 ❤️ 708 👁️ 35.8K **

FxTwitter · Dec 1, 2025, 6:00 PM

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21pKdDEOYAA

Definitely some interesting insights into the views an attitudes of a post-Vietnam Australia

[narrow cloak]

Can i question what if here?

[remote monolith]

Sure why not, as long as it's above 20 years ago

[narrow cloak]

Thanks brother

What tactical outcome if Japan win Midway
I know that Japan would lost but idk how much tactical victory would bring Japan if they won Battle of Midway

[mental tapir]

Depends on what they lose in the process and how much the Americans save

Presuming a complete victory: All of Kido Butai survives and their pilot corps doesn't take too much damage while all three Yorktowns sink: Morale (and maybe FDR's reputation) takes a hit, the remaining Wasp and Saratoga try to do hit and runs on Midway while the Essexes and Independences come online (and presumably more Clevelands are converted to Independences to cover the near term gap), possibly Ranger isn't dedicated to Operation Torch

Guadalcanal is also most likely delayed

Japan on the other hand would struggle to hold on to Midway due to how far it is and how difficult resupply would be

They would probably try to take the Aleutians and Hawaii next and fall flat on their face

https://www.combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm

[autumn sorrel]

In best case scenario for IJN where they won with minimum losses, delay on USN operations in South Pacific. US Convoy route to Australia are most likely will be under threat of being cutoff by IJN but unless IJA succeed in Papue New Guinea, threat of invasion on Australia mainland is negligible.

That's is only if USN lost more than 2 Carrier in that battle, Saratoga is almost done with her repair and depend on how many carrier survive Midway, USN still have enough force in the Pacific to deny IJN Command of the Sea

[remote monolith]

and even if they succeeded in Papua New Guinea, most of the Australian pop is on the east coast anyway

[narrow cloak]

Would there possible for Japan to launch attack Indian Ocean ?

[narrow cloak]

At least Raid on British?

What happened to Australia Navy?
Will Australia Navy destroy?

[narrow cloak]

Still it seem not good for Australia

[remote monolith]

and not good for Japan either because the logistics needed to even invade is ridiculous

it's either a very long winding route through the eastern coast or trekking an entire mini-continent away

[narrow cloak]

It would been possible for Japan to launch some raid on Australia
Maybe target some strategic locations

[autumn sorrel]

I want to be in the IJN logistic department room and hear the rant of the admiral in charge when he was informed that he now not only need to plan new supply route from Trunk to Port Moresby but somehow scramble enough oiler, merchantmen, troopship and organize escort for naval invasion of Port Douglas

[remote monolith]

which are all still mostly around the east coast and a continent away

[narrow cloak]

Likely but the West Coast will experience some heat
Maybe some isolate island like Cocos (Keeling) Islands would been colonised by Japan

[autumn sorrel]

Battle of Coral Sea show that if even one USN carrier still out there, and raid or planned invasion are under threat of being flanked

[remote monolith]

colonised not so much, it'll just get retaken or cut off anyway\

[autumn sorrel]

HAHAHAHAHA

Good luck

[narrow cloak]

Could possibly
But it doesn’t mean Japan will not take advantage of this

[autumn sorrel]

They are sparsely populate for a reason and even if they build a base there, it will be an even bigger drain on IJN limited resources

[narrow cloak]

They would however gonna find solutions
But for me it would been good for defensive

[autumn sorrel]

It will be even funnier if IJA build a base there bc IJN will outright refuse to provide escort for IJA convoy

[narrow cloak]

Hmm i wonder if IJN and IJA was in fact more corporation than ever before
How much would change

[autumn sorrel]

Possibly better code breaking and intel sharing first

Those 2 service outright refuse to tell the other of anything that might be useful to each other

[narrow cloak]

It would been tougher for US to fight

[autumn sorrel]

Even in some case witheld intel so that the other service get shafted

[autumn sorrel]

Not really

[narrow cloak]

I mean yeah US have many things

But for other allies it would tougher fight especially Britain

[remote monolith]

the other Allies had fairly minimal contributions in the Pacific anyway navally speaking

the bulk of the fighting post 41 were more or less US ships

[narrow cloak]

I mean many focus on Germany

[remote monolith]

well, yeah?

[junior trench]

Amusingly, this would actually be bad for the Japanese

Due to how much the US had penetrated their cryptology

Wider sharing would mean fewer sources are needed to get a full picture

[junior trench]

I've started the timer for the arrival of him lol

[mental tapir]

Who?

[remote monolith]

ah yes

[autumn sorrel]

The Spoon

[desert agate]

The RAN was generally deployed alongside USN task groups
It rarely sailed as a combined entity in the Pacific with its assets distributed among various task forces

[desert agate]

A raid on where? The raid on Darwin, while tactically successful, did not change much beyond pushing Allied shipping South, where it could be better protected, but that shipping was heading that way regardless, Darwin simply accelerated the process

[desert agate]

What on the West Coast is worth bombing? There's absolutely nothing North of Geraldton worth a carrier group deployment, and South of Geraldton is a swarm of Allied airpower and submarines, far too dangerous for 1 or 2 carriers and definitely too far away to take away from other areas of the front

[desert agate]

The RAN was pretty crucial in the dying days of the Dutch East Indes but beyond that retreated Southwards before moving North with the USN to Guadalcanal

[desert agate]

Hi

[remote monolith]

I know, hence I said fairly/relatively, since the lion's share is obviously the USN, but other nations had their contributions still

anyhow any Japanese fleet trying to attack the east coast of Australia would have likely get savaged

[desert agate]

The East Coast is even more dangerous than the West

There's a major airbase reliably every 2-300 kms South of Cairns, Townsville being the most dangerous by far

Pretty much the moment you're within range of the air bases on the East Coast, which is not as sparsely populated as popular culture would have you believe, you're going to be under constant attack from 2-3 airfields coordinating strikes to keep you away

American B-24s and B-17s plus RAAF Catalinas and Beaufighters are going to out range any IJN strike package well before it can launch a strike

So basically you're either bombing sweet fuck all on the West Coast or you're getting bombed to high hell on the East

I don't see any winning that fight

[narrow cloak]

Could Japan used as defensive?

[narrow rover]

Tbh the only alt history divergence point for Japan in WW2 is Savo Island
And it's only a delaying action.

[desert agate]

What do you mean?

Japan isn’t invading Australia if that’s what you think

Maybe at most a limited occupation of Darwin that would be swiftly defeated

Keeping in mind that the Australian interior is incredibly harsh, no landings outside of a major population centre are viable
Even if you had the supplies they won’t last long against the indigenous long ranged patrol units or the AMF
And the major cities are far too well defended

[narrow cloak]

I mean can Japan used whole Papua as defensive zone?

[remote monolith]

Er

It'll just get cut off

Seriously

They dried doing it with Rabaul and what happened is that the Allies completely skipped it over and went straight for the Home Isles

[desert agate]

If Japan wins in the Coral Sea and takes Moresby it’s just going to result in a guerrilla campaign that’s going to sap resources
Moresby itself is strategically useless to Japan because it’s too vulnerable to air attack to be used as a port for supplying troops which makes the prospect of an aerial campaign over Northern Australia quite tenuous

[narrow cloak]

What more viable option for Japan?

[desert agate]

Yes taking Moresby deprives Australia and Australians of some security but it does not drastically change the strategic calculus of the South Pacific

The more viable option is not bombing Pearl Harbour

There’s simply no way for Japan to take and hold the South Pacific
It’s too vulnerable to isolation
The merchant fleet is too small
Airborne logistics are not viable
Enemy interdiction is too easy

Australia is perfectly positioned as a jumping off point for campaigns in the area while also providing an insurmountable strategic road block

[narrow rover]

This is an actually interesting one

But you'd have to get Yamamoto to resign earlier or get him to slip on a banana peel and fall down the stairs before 1941

[desert agate]

You’d have to get the Meiji restoration to not result in a disgruntled former samurai class creating a military that only hated its own government more than itself actually

Would have saved a lot of headache in the 30s I imagine

[remote monolith]

And in turn you need to have it so that the Tokugawa didn't win after Sekigahara

[desert agate]

Likely would have resulted in a lot of Chinese people keeping their heads at that

[narrow rover]

Honestly just get the Russo Japanese war to go exactly as the British predicted
The Japanese gets pushed back on land but win the sea battle

[desert agate]

That’s almost exactly what happened

[narrow rover]

They won't get Korea that way. Korea was what massively boosted the army's stocks

[remote monolith]

Actually yeah if the Hideyoshi supporters won at Sekigahara wonder how long before Hideyori gets booted off

Cause he's far too young a ruler

Probably causing another round of warring states period in Japan

[desert agate]

Japan was basically incapable of continuing the war while the Russian army was very ready for a counter offensive

Political considerations prevented such battles however

[narrow rover]

It'd have been interesting if the Russians counter attacked earlier and made the war more of a convincing draw

[remote monolith]

Wagering that Mitsunari Ishida probably could have made his own regime on the other hand as commander of the western army

[narrow rover]

A lot of Japan's issues starts off with winning the Russo Japanese war.

[narrow rover]

Going THAT far back has the potential to change a bit too much than just "avoid WW2" lol.

[desert agate]

Japans issues start with Meiji being literally insane and completely spineless

[remote monolith]

Could have easily be so if you just change Nicholas from being far less mercurial and wishy washy

[narrow rover]

I'd blame Taisho more

[desert agate]

Had he been capable of taking a more proactive approach in the restoration things may have gone differently

By the time of Taisho the damage had been done

[narrow rover]

No Japanese emperor was ever all that proactive. Meiji was one of the more active ones anyway.

[remote monolith]

You mean Taisho? Cause Meiji was far from spineless and basically dictated the government from behind

Meiji was anything but powerless imo, he was a grasping autocrat

[desert agate]

His cabinet did most of the work, no?

[narrow rover]

Basically the problems with the meiji restoration is impossible to avoid. You have to get it to blow up on everyone's faces before 1941

[remote monolith]

Under his desired direction and personality

[desert agate]

He was basically the rubber stamp

Well either way he did a bad job

[remote monolith]

Depends, for himself he's done a great job

[narrow rover]

There's probably a shit tonne of potential divergence points but
Usually the Russo Japanese war is a place to start.

[remote monolith]

While records of his own personality is scarce he at least was seemingly a proud nationalist and didn't see the direction the country was going as a problem

[narrow rover]

Or you can have like
WW1 go differently

[remote monolith]

I'm mostly drawing on Herbert Bix's work which argues both Hirohito and Meiji are far from powerless or spineless

They're very willful people who willingly guided the country to a more nationalist, imperialistic bent and sees nothing wrong with conquest

Supported by how a lot of the Imperial household's members were actively in support of war and served in the armed forces, such a thing is unlikely without the consent of the Tenno

[narrow rover]

Meiji died in 1912. It's a bit of a stretch to link him to WW2

He didn't participate in politics much. I mean just look at the number of kids he had
Dude straight up didn't have time

[remote monolith]

I'm referring to Hirohito on this part

For Meiji I'm mostly referring to how he's not recorded as having any personal issues with Japan's war with China in 1891 or its conflict with Russia, nor did he try to steer the cabinet against it when he did have some capability to influence government decisions despite his ceremonial position

[narrow rover]

Meiji is said to have expressed some concern but he didn't try to do anything.

[autumn sorrel]

That implied Tokugawa will give up after Sekigahara

[narrow rover]

Hirohito jumps between trying to stay off everything and trying to intervene. Usually at the worst possible moments

[remote monolith]

True, Ieyasu was crafty enough to potentially win even after Sekigahara

[narrow rover]

The only good decision he made was ending WW2.

[remote monolith]

And gave tacit approvals to blatantly horrible acts like the Kwantung Army's provocstions

Though at least his marine wildlife research is legit

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, he have the legitimacy but the majority of his force by the end of Boshin War is still make up of majority Satsuma and Choshu domain. The Imperial Army that was needed to suppress those local Warlord was built by landless and disgruntled Samurai class that you just lamented on.

Basically Meiji have little choice in the matter unless he want to come back to being a puppet

[remote monolith]

For the toppling of the Shogunate and the making of the Republic, yeah I'd agree, not so much for the expansionist phase of Japan though

[autumn sorrel]

Sekigahara was decisive bc many of Toyotomi Loyalist lost their lives or surrendered there. Ieyasu is crafty enough to ensure that even if he lose the battle, he can safely disengage his army and fight another day.

[remote monolith]

If the bird doesn't sing, wait for it, as they say

[autumn sorrel]

True but then Meiji have little choice in the Naval matter seeing how much of them come from Choshu. By the time IJA and IJN take shape, the Emperor realize that he cannot fully control both branch without another civil war and possible coup so he more or less tacitly encourage the interservice rivalry to make sure that both service will be lock in a power struggle with no dominant winner and both will have to come to him for legitimacy.

[narrow rover]

Samurai clan politics was like, gone by the time the 1st Sino Japanese war ended

[autumn sorrel]

Doesn't matter, the next generation already inherited the rivalry and blood fued already formed.

[remote monolith]

In military yes, but not political arguably. He was highly influential through his council of advisors, and did have soft means to request something be done

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, when you indoctrinated everyone into believing you a living God, a polite request will be perceived as a command

That's why Westerner really don't understand why Hirohito was both so powerful but so powerless at the same time

[remote monolith]

I generally disagree that the post-Restoration Emperors are fully puppets, sure they're not supposed to legally rule and had limitations everywhere, but they have considerable soft powers, and they contributed to the path Japan fell into by instead implicitly approving an expansionist, aggressive path in collusion with the increasingly prominent members of the military

[autumn sorrel]

Yes, IJA and IJN do shit without even consulting him and even pull shit like staging mini civil war on Japan soil but at the end of the day, they still have to come to Hirohito for his approval.

[autumn sorrel]

You could sum it up that the Japan royal family has perfect the art of subtle influence over millennia being puppet of Shoguns.

If it was China then you would see new dynasty and Imperial Family rise but in Japan, there still only one family

[remote monolith]

Too be fair, pre-Meiji Emperors kinda do sucks dick lol

None of them particularly figured that much post-Kamakura outside of Go-Daigo

Chinese dynasties rise and fall but they're super active like Taizu, Shizong, Taizong (of Tang) and Hongwu

Also speaking of Huangdis, always loved the theory that Eastern Han emperors died really fast because there was some unknown flooding of toxins in their palace

[autumn sorrel]

Gee, I wonder that and literal river of mercury flowing inside the palace have any correlation

[remote monolith]

Nah couldn't be because of the sacred immortality elixirs of the Taoists

It obviously gives you true immortality

[narrow rover]

Tbh I guess Japan doesn't really hate its current state lol

I can come up with a dozen timelines where they don't fight the Americans but
In all those timelines Japan ends up as a declined empire like Russia or Turkey

[remote monolith]

A functioning democracy with crazy cultural exports is pretty good

[narrow rover]

The functioning democracy part would have been very hard without someone forcing their hand like the US did

Even today Japan's democracy is "democracy with Japanese characteristics"

[remote monolith]

Could be worse at least, if nothing else it's better than Democracy with Southeast Asian characteristics (thinly veiled Feudalism)

[narrow rover]

LoL that's a bit of an insult for Japan

Again like
Very few countries successfully democratized

Korea, Taiwan both got lucky in that they had enormous economic growth
Uruguay just... did it

[junior trench]

stares at the Treaty era Bakufu and contemplating what happens if they're not even at that level of stability when Perry and the Europeans come knocking

Mfw both a Chinese and Japanese century of humiliation ensues

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3m6zrv2zx3e2l

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

#OTD in 1799: The frigate USS Chesapeake is launched at the Gosport Navy Yard in Virginia. She was one of the original six frigares whose construction was authorized by the Naval Act of 1794.

Bluesky · Dec 2, 2025, 8:30 PM

[narrow rover]

I mean that's kind of what happened to Joseon Korea

Tbh East Asia in general is a pretty crappy place to go colonizing but
Korea did survive until 1910

Even retook some territories from the Qing

But by 1910 the government was riddled with Japanese agents

IDK, maybe it's just geography but it seems like all the "colonization" efforts in East Asia was concentrated on China for some reason. Maybe it was just a juicy target.

[junior trench]

It was

But also some goofy shit happened where the US got super invested in stopping actual outright colonization in the region

Which the European powers actually wanted

But in the end settled for unequal economic treaties

Because somehow US diplomats of the time convinced them a "Scramble For China" would be so egregiously expensive any gains wouldn't offset the losses of fighting both the Chinese and other European powers

[remote monolith]

in fairness Japan modernized fairly fast and the Joseon tried closing itself off (didn't work in the end)

like you said China was big, which means a lot of difficulties by the central courts to monitor hinterlands, and the Qing at the time had severely atrophied

so it was easy to nibble bits of it off

like even during the Song the central government's abilities to govern something as far as Guangzhou was severely limited

[narrow rover]

Modernization yea but Japan straight up didn't face that much colonization threat

Everyone was more interested in China and Japan was at best considered a staging area

Heck, even Korea didn't face any real colonization threat from western powers... for Korea, the Qing and Japan were the dangerous ones.

[terse mesa]

https://youtu.be/BiuhlZyMuug

[austere crest]

It’s been a while since I posted something in this server but I have some good news

My museum got an upgrade. We now have a Mohawk. A recon aircraft from the Vietnam war

My grandfather seen plenty of them while stationed in Germany

[narrow rover]

It gets really funny once you realize the Americans saved China... twice

[peak mango]

We have one as a gate guardian, heh.

[austere crest]

Same with another at my museum

[subtle prawn]

<@&460646206851252224>

[rapid junco]

A Republic ad showing four P47Ds: USAAF, VVS (USSR), RAF and FAB (🇧🇷)

[subtle prawn]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/ajax-trial-manager-blasts-crews-over-incompetence/

[peak mango]

Hey gotta make 'em operator-proof.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS0deaVuwFw

[subtle prawn]

https://www.f35.com/f35/news-and-features/Ground_Test_Success_Meteor_and_F35A_Achieve_Critical_Integration_Milestone.html

[runic ermine]

Why has there been more talk of Alsace Lorraine on Twitter as of late?
https://x.com/UnionNatioPop/status/1996518612492767300?s=19

Union Nationale Populaire (@UnionNatioPop)

L’Alsace-Moselle était française avant 1870.

L’Alsace-Moselle fut reconquise 2 fois au prix de 2,2 millions de morts.

Ne comparez pas ce territoire qui fut volé, qui n’appartient pas à Israël , et ne lui a jamais appartenu, avec le sacrifice héroïque de nos martyrs obscurs.

Le

X · Dec 4, 2025, 9:55 AM

[runic ermine]

Im crying

[autumn sorrel]

Well, they are transition to being a game studio now so all is good

[timber linden]

Not going to get mod'ed answering that one

https://youtu.be/dcRTlDOBFZs?si=TaFJ4SyvWpaiAeUp

The wife got a new video!

[desert agate]

Best to avoid such controversial topics but it would be difficult to argue that the legacy of colonialism didn't directly contribute to the wars of the early 21st century that created the crisis

[subtle prawn]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/over-one-third-of-ajax-vehicles-caused-crew-health-problems/

[runic ermine]

It happened again...
https://x.com/mrjeffu/status/1996078047997689970?s=19

Jeffrey J. Hall 🇯🇵🇺🇸 (@mrjeffu)

The film Peleliu: Guernica of Paradise will be released on Friday at movie theaters across Japan.
It is an adaptation of a historical fiction manga told from the perspective of a Japanese soldier experiencing of one World War 2's most gruesome battles.

X · Dec 3, 2025, 4:44 AM

Not even a year apart from the last incident

[narrow rover]

A reminder: it's historically accurate, meaning everyone likely just... dies.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT2BY9Psbsc

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/navalnews.com/post/3m7bcgts6bk25

Naval News (@navalnews.com)

Announced by Secretary of the Navy (SECNAV) John C. Phelan on December 5th, the United States Navy and Marine Corps has chosen Dutch shipbuilder Damen’s LST 100 landing ship for the Medium Landing Ship (LSM) program 🇺🇸 🇳🇱
www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2...

-# U.S Marine Corps Selects Design for New LSM Landing Ships - Naval News
Announced by Secretary of the Navy (SECNAV) John C. Phelan on December 5th, the United States Navy and Marine Corps has chosen Dutch shipbuilder Damen's LST 100 landing ship for the Medium Landing Shi...

Bluesky · Dec 5, 2025, 8:15 PM

[cyan oriole]

wtf is this dogshit AI slop

all history channels are just AI now, you have to read books or else you get bad information

the video content is also dogshit, the AI narrator literally says nothing, "the japanese had more ships, they bombed the allied fleet, and although the allies sank a few japanese ships, in the end they were outgunned and overwhelemed"

and then the last part is the worst, verbatim "this battle was significant because it led to the fall of Singapore and the liberation of Indonesia. It's also the dealiest naval battle in history, with over 3,000 men killed" (literally every part is wrong)
btw this is about the Battle of the Java Sea

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCyszZieWz8

[narrow rover]

https://youtu.be/0xlqssEt-Ws?si=C6emPMBSCZiY_-m_

TIL of Saionji Kinmochi

It's even more remarkable that he died right after the triparte pact was signed, and that his last words was essentially "where is this godforsaken country going!"

[subtle prawn]

https://bsky.app/profile/usni.org/post/3m7denx56t52l

U.S. Naval Institute (@usni.org)

#OTD in 1941, LT Ichiro Kitajima briefed torpedo bomber pilots aboard the aircraft carrier Kaga about the plan to attack Pearl Harbor the next morning. Planes from the Kaga would score hits on the battleships Nevada, Oklahoma, Arizona, California, West Virginia, and Maryland.

Bluesky · Dec 6, 2025, 4:00 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0B4YvwM-UQ

[narrow rover]

The last Japanese participant in the Pearl Harbor attacks (crew on board Soryu) died last year btw

I don't think any of the actual pilots survived the war

[runic ermine]

The Armchair Historian may have been the internet's anchor being

[runic ermine]

What convenient timing

Anyways before my next exam on Monday EST anybody wanna talk about the Second Boer War or the Spanish Civil War?

[peak mango]

boer... ing but franco v commies is fun stuff...

[runic ermine]

Im waiting for this book to come out

[peak mango]

Fair. But I really hate african post-colonial conflicts as a genre. Gets way too loaded with modern baggage.

[runic ermine]

I was more hoping to talk about colonial troops because there's not really any videos about it on YouTube

[peak mango]

local auxiliaries?

[runic ermine]

Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, Indians, South Africans, Rhodisans

No videos on YouTube about any of them

[peak mango]

Not all the same, depending on the conflict.

[runic ermine]

Second Boer War and their participation

[peak mango]

SA and Rhodesia are in a different category than the regiments from other parts of the empire.

[desert agate]

Literally the most famous Japanese pilot of the war Mitsuo Fuchida, who led the first wave of Japanese aircraft over Pearl Harbour, who wrote and defined the Western understanding of the IJN for decades before finally being discredited in 2005, died in 1976

[runic ermine]

Are you American?

[runic ermine]

Also what about the others?

[runic ermine]

Why was he discredited?

[desert agate]

Because he lied

Read Shattered Sword

[runic ermine]

Why is there this assumption that everyone dies?

[runic ermine]

Ah

[desert agate]

The entire book is dedicated to dismantling the myths he created

And correcting the Western historical record

[runic ermine]

Was he very samurai like in his explanation?

[desert agate]

Fuchida had been discredited in Japan for decades prior to Shattered Sword

[desert agate]

No he just lied about the things that happened and when

Particularly about Midway

[runic ermine]

Reminds me of when potential history talked about western misconceptions about Japanese weapons

[peak mango]

Politics of the time. CA/AU/NZ are one category, IN another issue (we'll talk about it post ww2) and SA and Rhodisians are locals to the conflict.

[desert agate]

He single handedly created the myth of the 'five minutes of fate' where American bombers screamed down striking the Japanese carriers right as they were preparing to launch their strike on the American carriers

[runic ermine]

Canada actually had an interesting divide

[peak mango]

Locally, sure.

[runic ermine]

English speakers were pro war, French speakers were anti war

[peak mango]

lol quebecois are their thing. ❤️ canadia and all that. And I can literally be from hongcouver ...

[desert agate]

The French are the reason why Canada never built a navy of any note until WW2

[runic ermine]

A lot French newspapers compared the Boers to the French being conquered during the Seven Years War

[runic ermine]

The French are now even more dysfunctional

[peak mango]

always has been. (apologies for the stereotype)

[runic ermine]

Secularism laws despite a Catholic majority, separatism despite rising patriotism, boomer occupied government

A mess

Like completely and utterly

[desert agate]

Wow, a modern western democracy being
Shock horror
Secular

The world should replicate French secularism laws

[runic ermine]

Its more about working against itself but that will be a long explanation

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7yvVdLG_zk

[desert agate]

Also like, I'm obviously talking about French Canadians not actual France

[peak mango]

Anyway, boer war.

[desert agate]

And I'm obviously not talking about modern politics because I'm not a fucking idiot who wants to be banned

[runic ermine]

I know im just saying, the generation in power is now completing with a younger generation who's returning to the Church

But again

Looooong

Story

Very

Long

[peak mango]

It's just post colonial tropes for the most part.

[runic ermine]

Like back to 1500s long

[runic ermine]

Basically, and this plays into the boer war debate in Canada at the time

[desert agate]

Older generations in France are predominantly more religious while younger generations are showing a strong trend away from religious affiliation

This is the case in all Western democracies as well

[peak mango]

Which is why I would rather talk about franco v commies... (and yes, intentional framing)

[runic ermine]

In Quebec the opposite is happening slowly and in France young people are slowly going to church again apparently but again, long story but this one only goes back to 1792

[desert agate]

In fact the only demographics which show trends towards religion are the ones which were involved in the European refugee crisis

[runic ermine]

Not a long story there

[desert agate]

No they are not going to church again, don't believe everything you read on the internet

[peak mango]

There's a historical neglect in the western world's youth trending away from religion, tbh.

Something something values something idk.

[runic ermine]

Again, long story for another time and how Gen Z is different in two ways

[desert agate]

Again, trends towards religion in France are directly related to the events of 2015

[peak mango]

Da.

[runic ermine]

To sum up, men in America are more religious than women now

And in Canada, most Church attendees are young people

And long story

[peak mango]

very demographically divergent.

[desert agate]

You are playing a dangerous game here

And a very ill informed one at that

[runic ermine]

Yeah let's get back on topic

[desert agate]

America, shock horror, has a different culture and attitude towards religion compared to Europe

[runic ermine]

What's that supposed to mean?

[desert agate]

Who would have thought that different countries would have different cultures

[peak mango]

CA isn't the US

[desert agate]

I'm saying the basis of your argument is wrong but explaining why would get me warned for discussing modern politics

[runic ermine]

Ok back on topic

Basically English Canadians were pro war and French Canadians were anti war

[desert agate]

https://www.awm.gov.au/articles/atwar/boer

[peak mango]

*boer war

[runic ermine]

Irish Canadians were caught in the middle but surprisingly sided with the English because because they were competing for influence in the Catholic Church

[runic ermine]

Yep. The Second one

[peak mango]

I mean it's an english colonial adventure. That split is kind of given.

[desert agate]

The Irish expatriate population generally supported liberalism in most countries

[runic ermine]

So what happened? The French Prime Minister was being tugged all over the place by the citizens and his cabinet

So he was like "Ok, 1,000 men go over and they are all volunteers"

[runic ermine]

Again this is Canada, very big mess

Even back then

And like I said above, everyone's tugging at the PM

One side is like "DO SOMETHING!" and the other side is like "DON'T DO SOMETHING!" and his cabinet is like "war. War! WAR!"

And Quebec responded like the eldest daughter's own... daughter...

By rioting

Violently

For 3 days

@desert agate so to sum up, the PM tries to please everyone but still pisses of his own people

[peak mango]

tbh .. that's a canadian thing. you can also locally examine the NZ and AU contingents.

[runic ermine]

Ok let's do that then

[spiral cedar]

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1601&context=nwc-review

https://www.combinedfleet.com/BennettRebuttal.htm

[runic ermine]

Because what I said above sums up the domestic Canadian situation

[peak mango]

Likely the same things to some extent.

[runic ermine]

I know that Australia wasn't unified

Like multiple states

[peak mango]

But still empire. To me, the more interesting things are the SA and Rhodesia bits.

[desert agate]

They were not states they were self governing colonies

[cyan oriole]

it's funny, I have a midway book that talks about Shattered Sword talking about Fuchida, it's the source-ception

[runic ermine]

Yeah

[desert agate]

The colonies became states on the 1st of January 1901

[runic ermine]

During the war

[peak mango]

Not a huge difference.

[desert agate]

I am aware that was during the war thank you for educating me on my own history

[runic ermine]

Kinda because state is usually independent

Usually

(Looking at you Independent State of Croatia)

[desert agate]

There is a pretty big difference between being a state and a self governing colony

[peak mango]

It's a spectrum. I mean who's in the commonweath?

[runic ermine]

Americans think Commonwealth members are colonies

[peak mango]

Au still has a governor genreral ...

[runic ermine]

So does Canada

[desert agate]

Federation moved the leadership of the Australian continent away from London towards Melbourne

[runic ermine]

And Confedation was to protect against American expansion and the Fenians

[desert agate]

Australia has a governor general, said governor general has no power and if they tried to take an undemocratic action in the avenue of 1976, Australia would immediately become a republic

[runic ermine]

You guys anti monarchy down there?

[peak mango]

again, spectrum with varying degrees of actual independence, from full and 'we like this club' to .. idk, diego garcia.

[prime pecan]

Let see if anyone can translate Morse code

[peak mango]

dit dit dit dah dah dit dit dit

[prime pecan]

.- .. .-. / .-. .- .. -.. / .--. . .- .-. .-.. / .... .- .-. -... --- .-. .-.-.- / - .... .. ... / .. ... / -. --- / -.. .-. .. .-.. .-.. .-.-.-

[desert agate]

1976 was an anomaly and the political institutions of Australia were unprepared to deal with it

[desert agate]

The majority of Australians support republicanism but the political impetus for a republic fell after the referendum in 1999 failed

[peak mango]

constitutional monarchies with varying amounts of deference towards the monarch, functionally.

[runic ermine]

Im sorry my country is so dysfunctional

[prime pecan]

Sweden

[desert agate]

In the words of Malcolm Turnbull, John Howard broke Australia's heart

[peak mango]

sorry. Also .. I want to talk about the spanish civil war more tbh. 😄

[runic ermine]

That had Republicans too

And religion

And controversy

[desert agate]

Regardless, Australia is functionally a republic, the governor general has no power like they do in Canada

[runic ermine]

Canada is what happens when the French and the English have a child

[desert agate]

1976 caused such a shock to the Australian political establishment that actions were taken to prevent such a crisis happening again

[peak mango]

Um... pretty sure france didn't consent

[desert agate]

If Canada had its own constitutional crisis in the avenue of 1976 and Gough Whitlam, its constitution prevents it from making the institutional reforms that Australia was able to make

[runic ermine]

No and that's why the Québécois didn't wanna send troops to South Africa

[runic ermine]

We had communist terrorists send children to blow up military instalations

They also kidnapped two diplomats and executed one

[desert agate]

Cool I don't know what that has to do with a constitutional crisis though

Historical discussion isn't just throwing around random unrelated anecdotes for no reason

[runic ermine]

Possibility of civil war, the fact that the constitution got violated famously for the first time against a domestic enemy and some other stuff

[desert agate]

Yes but that has no correlation to the 1976 constitutional crisis in Australia

My point is that if Canada were to have a similar crisis, it wouldn't be capable of making institutional reforms to prevent it

[runic ermine]

Ah. Well that's true

I have no faith in our politicans

[desert agate]

The only reason Canada is an independent nation is because of the good will of the monarchy and governor general, theoretically the Canadian constitution, unlike the Australian one is irrevocably entwined with the monarchy

[runic ermine]

Speaking of Canada and Australia @peak mango you know about the International Brigades right

[peak mango]

Ja (depending on context)

[desert agate]

Obviously in practice you can just rewrite the constitution but doing so legally is dubious

[runic ermine]

Canadian's volunteers suffered an extremely high fatality rate

And Australia... 1/6th I think

[peak mango]

to which?

[runic ermine]

Mackenzie Papineau

[runic ermine]

Fun fact, only one being is above Canada's constitution

[peak mango]

Hrmmmm ....

(wiki)

[desert agate]

Australia, as the birthplace of the modern labour movement and workers rights, of course had people go to fight in Spain

Only about 70 people did

[runic ermine]

There was an entire Finnish Canadian unit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilkka_Machine_Gun_Company

[desert agate]

1/4 were killed

[runic ermine]

Depending on the estimate, Canada had the highest fatality rate

[desert agate]

66 Australians are thought to have served in the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939), not counting those of Spanish descent that returned home to fight. All except one of the 66 fought for the republicans, as opposed to Franco's fascists, and around a quarter were killed.

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/CN500103

[runic ermine]

Also foreign units had high fatality rates for the same reason as foreign units in "current events"

[runic ermine]

So one fought for Franco?

[desert agate]

That's what that says yes

No doubt a Catholic

[runic ermine]

For Canada idk of any fought for Franco

[runic ermine]

Hey what's that supposed to mean?

[desert agate]

It means what it says

[runic ermine]

Ah

[desert agate]

Catholics predominantly supported Franco

[runic ermine]

You that explains a lot...

[desert agate]

Protestants and anglicans predominantly either didn't take a side or supported the republicans

I know someone who has a relative who fought for the Republicans, despite being an Irish Catholic, he was ostracised from his community as a result

[runic ermine]

Same with Canada apparently

[desert agate]

The great thing about religion is that it tends to go beyond national borders

Catholics supported Franco because Franco was a Catholic, he supported the Church and had death squads roaming the country shooting protestants and atheists

[runic ermine]

I mean, my mom once told me that despite the divide between Catholic and Orthodox we are all brothers and sisters in Christ

Speaking of

Russian orthodox fought for Franco

[desert agate]

That's a modern ideal