#history
junior trench
maiden citrus
oh I was gonna join you
junior trench
Indiana might be a freak of nature though
maiden citrus
saw jack and thought fisher
tough quail
Nobody remembers Indiana so it basically doesn't count
Like anything Anson did
Naval history works under TES god rules where if not enough people remember you, you cease to exist
spiral cedar
I do also find it slightly hilarious that NC at this extreme range is firing more than 60% more shells per minute per gun than Bismarck at Denmark Strait
maiden citrus
didn't even the kgvs manage better at times
tough quail
not the highest bar tbh, iirc Wales somehow averaged out slightly higher
tough quail
for some reason Bismarck was firing like a predread
spiral cedar
Lindemann's reluctance bled into the gunnery officers
tough quail
despite having the positional/weather advantage too
maiden citrus
also gosh some fun activity here made me remember I quit the game half a year ago, hope my ships are fine
tough quail
they're cannibalizing each other as we speak
maiden citrus
I don't think anything even happened game wise I care about
which kinda is like... yeah no wonder I stopped
tough quail
to be fair how were they going to follow up that sick 556 skin with the horse
maiden citrus
related is I have the huge eagle union wall poster but I don't play so I've been debating taking it down but have no idea if I should since it's still naval themed lmao
maiden citrus
they're cannibalizing each other as we speak
I miss them, but remind myself I had been zombieing the game for close to two years
I couldn't do anything more with my ships anyway
tough quail
carry them in your heart by looking at fanart that gives them even fatter titties
maiden citrus
every eu ship 125, all gold gear, main ones rainbow gear, all skills on all of them maxed
what do now
yeah, art good, the representation is nice
one day, new mexico will be added
spiral cedar
And for the sake of completeness, my usual caveats and modelling assumptions:
Any model is only as good as the data it's built on--and more subtly, the data that isn't included.
#history message
Since the USN barred ships from target shoots that were close to bow-on or stern-on (due to the risk of friendly fire against the offset target or towing ship--range errors were much larger and more likely than deflection errors when firing under optical control), we should be very skeptical of using the model for situations where the target is presenting a target angle close to 0 or 180 degrees (aka rapidly closing or opening the range). Likewise smoke coverage is not generally a factor in practice shoot data, so ships disengaging under smoke aren't going to be well-represented.
And while the targets did maneuver (offset targets moreso than sled targets), the amount was restricted to 40-80 degrees of freedom, not ships doing U-turns or donuts. So ships doing extreme evasive maneuvers (maneuvers that would likely ruin their own gunnery, so ships not trying to inflict gunfire damage of their own in return) would not be well-represented.
Other factors are likewise not included. Return fire, for instance, is often referred to in the naval literature as having a suppressive effect analogous to land warfare. Not only do the splashes of "short" shells obscure the vision of the ship trying to aim through them, the experience of being under fire also adds new psychological pressures that are not always present in practice shoots.
But we should also acknowledge the ways in which the revised SRG data set is unusually representative, by practice shoot standards. The fact that the targets were moving at combat speed, and were maneuvering, is important. Likewise, gun and spotter casualties were considered part of the practice (and were even sometimes artificially introduced or simulated to encourage learning), which is thus rolled into the average results (even if the sudden effects of a casualty is going to be smoothed out by a mathematical model). We also ought to acknowledge the (handful of) ways the practice shoots could be harder than real combat--for example, offset shooting is mentally more challenging than simply counting real "overs" and "shorts," target sleds produce inferior radar returns to actual ships, and the USN's standard practice of firing single turret salvos in exercises (but full salvos in battle) inflates the salvo-to-salvo drift in mean point of impact (MPI) for both statistical reasons (smaller salvos means more random variance) and physical reasons (turret-to-turret variance and cold-barrel effects that mostly disappear when firing full salvos instead).
Thus my usual standard is to first only apply the model results to situations where the conditions fit (usually early in the battle, when both sides have little to no battle damage and aren't throwing up smoke or attempting to flee). Then, I apply the standard 1/3rd hit rate reduction recommended by Dr. Alan D. Zimm (naval warfare analyst for the US Navy) for estimating hit rates from practice data. Bill Jurens recommends a 1/2 reduction, but in context he's applying that more towards a total-battle model rather than my usage of specific parts of the battle, where the 1/3rd reduction makes more sense in my opinion. In any case, I tend to happily slash hit rate estimates drastically under very poor conditions anyway (radical maneuvering under smoke during the disengagement phase, for example), so I think it's fair to say my approach balances out.
Which I think is a pretty fair approach. We often see remarkably good shooting early in an engagement (e.g. Komandorski, River Plate) that degrades on both sides once the need to minimize own damage (smoke, heavy maneuvers, firing for suppression) takes precedence and human error accumulates. In that sense, and in light of the other above considerations, I think my choice of a 1/3rd reduction during the ideal early phase--aka the decisive phase is reasonable.
#history message
(Note how North Carolina actually out-shoots my model results--while underperformances are often well-attested, we should likewise be aware that overperformances can and do happen, and that they are thus a relevant consideration when doing tactical planning)
subtle prawn
spiral cedar
As for what a "sufficient" hit percentage is to be worth the ammunition expenditure, that depends on yet more factors—one of which being supply of AP ammunition (an area where the Japanese battleships, carrying 20-30% of their shells as Type 3 AA and some part more as Type 0 HE, are sorely lacking)
timber linden
In about more than 40 years we would have video about the fall of the USSR
Title: communism will surely work next time
supple sandal
Title: communism will surely work next time
🎣
cyan oriole
Title: communism will surely work next time
I was thinking more in terms of comparison with the on-paper 45k tons ships
since those are her counterparts
1942 Lion is better protected on the side over a larger area on a slightly smaller displacement (although deck protection is inferior)
same for the 45k ton Alsace, who has thicker protection over a smaller area -- but that translates into protection against same-size ships at least somewhere, while Iowa has a smaller immune zone over a larger area
and then lastly, the Isalian "45k ton" design (which likely would have grown to 50k tons) was significantly better protected, albeit also over a small area
and comparison with the German and Soviet behemoths, who slather armor everywhere to minimize damage, is moot
yeah, "battlecruiser" is a weird term, and it's always going to be hokey
the real answer is that like "super-dreadnought", the term became meaningless with the advent of the fast battleship
cyan oriole
it started here
when I said Hood is not a battlecruiser, and Iowa is more of a battlecruiser than Hood
yeah, I mean we didn't even consider this thing a "battlecruiser", even though it certainly was
creating a retrospective standard of classifying "battlecruisers" is pretty pointless, but it is an interesting exercise
and also one that people will endlesly fight over on the internet
spiral cedar
1942 Lion is better protected on the side over a larger area on a slightly small...
Lion does have more belt armor coverage, yes, though I wouldn't rate the ballistic resistance as notably dissimilar—her protection is fairly similar to a uniform KGV magazine protection, which is similar to SD and Iowa. I will grant that compared to the Richelieus and Alsaces of the world, Iowa starts to look more middle-of-the-pack than at the top, but we'd also agree that the Lions and Alsaces are battleships, no?
spiral cedar
and comparison with the German and Soviet behemoths, who slather armor everywher...
And frankly all three of these are better protected than H-39 and similar nonsense
cyan oriole
H-39 is intended to fight merchant ships and cruisers, while being able to return home safely after a few battleship hits from some veteran BB guarding a convoy
spring briar
funnily enough, the Duquesnes' had initial requirements of having a 34 knot speed, specifically to be faster than the Omahas (33 knots) and Hood (32 knots)
cyan oriole
so in a BB fight vs someone its own size, obviously it looks like utter trash
spiral cedar
In general the German steam turbine battleships are designed for fleet actions, not merchant raiding
They were used for the latter because the war came earlier than expected, not because they were designed for that
H-39 is in a similar situation
cyan oriole
yes, which is why they're so funny
the armor scheme and redundancy concepts are designed for an action that might occur during raiding operations
but the propulsion plant is for a fleet action that Germany would never be able to win
hence why they were lambsted after the war
same with Hipper being bloated to be a raider, and then using steam turbines with 0 endurance and 0 reliability
too bad we didn't get any of the later Panzerschiffe, like those Handelszerstorer
spiral cedar
The Germans went with distributed armor schemes not because they would offer superior protection in a raiding scenario—they would, against some enemies—but because that's just the lessons the Kriegsmarine drew from Jutland and WWI fleet actions (notably, a high-caliber HE shell smacking open the bow of a German BC and contributing to her loss by progressive flooding—armoring the waterline ends was as much or more intended for battleship shells as for cruisers)
cyan oriole
H-39 is intended to fight merchant ships and cruisers, while being able to retur...
then the Soviets are an interesting study of tradeoffs: a ship designed to be an impregnable fortress vs BB, but also be completely immune to cruisers and whatever inclement bombings. Suddenly your design is 70k tons
spring briar
The Germans went with distributed armor schemes not because they would offer sup...
which funnily enough is the exact thing that killed Lutzow
spiral cedar
In practice Sovetsky Soyuz is probably about similarly protected on the belt to Lion/KGV magazines, albeit with a far beefier deck
But that's with hindsight rather than the design intention
cyan oriole
well, in practice the armor is Soviet homogenous armor
likely incorporating manufacturing defects in the gradients from 375 to 390 to 406 to 420
the Soviets did manage to perfect their style of BB design eventually, but only in 1950 when it didn't matter anymore
spring briar
well, in practice the armor is Soviet homogenous armor
facehardened
spiral cedar
From the people who I trust who have looked into it, the final decision before cancellation seems to have been to use non-cemented facehardened armor, much like Yamato. Which isn't inherently bad, and much better than sandwiching two thin cemented plates together
spiral cedar
Homogenous would technically have been used for the horizontal armor, but that's true of the rest of the world
cyan oriole
Vasilev?
spring briar
cemented was replaced with facehardened for thicknesses greater than 200mm
with the problem that this facehardened plate was more brittle than the originally intended cemented plate
cyan oriole
do you know where the Soviets were sourcing their cemented armor for Project 24?
was it a domestic invention? or was it like Krupp formula
spring briar
from the Izhorskii and Mariupolskii steel works
it was just soviet krupp style armor
spiral cedar
I do agree with this—though more specifically, armored decks limit the vertical extent of blast damage (which can compromise the watertightness of nearby decks) and provide structural rigidity. Leakage and progressive flooding over them does happen with some frequency during WWII, hence my emphasis on blast mitigation and structural strength rather than "flooding" in general
spring briar
and flooding trough the cable tunnels is going to be an issue regardless
everyone found this out
spiral cedar
Eyup
spring briar
damn Sovetsky Soyuz' armor weight was listed at 23306 metric tons compared to 23262 metric tons for Yamato
(consider Yamato used armor for integral hull strength as well)
spiral cedar
Above the armored 'citadel,' Iowa (and the other fast battleships) is thin high-tensile steel rather than thicker STS. In fact, this discontinuity of metals led to galvanic corrosion issues along the seam of these metals on the museum ships
Despite the USN reputation for using STS lavishly, most of their ships are still HT steel in practice
spring briar
oh god...
jaba
the soviets used 7 different armor thicknesses on soyuz' belt, some only 5mm apart from one another
but 5mm is less than the accepted plate thickness tolerance
spring briar
and ofc the 390-406-420mm stepped magazine belts
cyan oriole
can't really blame the designers, they had to design a ship with no prior experience
and then that ship had to be built by an industrial base that had only produced cruisers to that point
even with Italian and German advice, mistakes were inevitable
also I wonder if a 201k horsepower through 3 shafts were even possible
spring briar
well uh
cyan oriole
the British didn't think it was even remotely plausible for loads of that magnitude
so I doubt Soviet engineers would have managed it
spring briar
the soviets bought 4 turbines from the Swiss firm of Brown Boveri
they were going to use 3 of them for the Soyuzs building in Molotovsk
and were going to use the 4th one as a template to make domestic turbines
the Kharkosvskii tubrogenerator works were going to produce 6 turbines in 1940 and 12 in 1941-1942
but in the end none were completed
and one boiler was completed in early 1941
shafts had to be ordered in the Netherlands and Germany
there were not enough workers
etc etc
cyan oriole
sounds like typical Russian battleship construction
same story with the Izmails never making it
and I don't doubt it's a similar story even today
opal aspen
What the soviets make?
spring briar
the Izmails were never finished because 1) the war
2) post ww1 Izmail reconstruction boards were filled with army funded personnel that ofc funneled all money to the army
and cancelled any reconstruction/continuation projects for the Izmails
cyan oriole
too bad that the idea to convert them into civilian liners never went though
that would have been hilarious\
cyan oriole
Lion does have more belt armor coverage, yes, though I wouldn't rate the ballist...
Alsace is funny, because it's basically an Iowa sidegrade
if you really simplify it
especially the 2 option, you have your 3x3 406, you have your high speed, you have your internal armor scheme, you have your strong deck armor
and then there are loadout and cosmetic differences
but the theory is the same
same with the Italian "45k ton" (50k ton) ship
and even Project 23bis and NU
spring briar
spiral cedar
This is a strange statement, since with the exception of sudden mass torpedo attacks (e.g. Royal Oak, Barham, Kongō) and magazine detonations (e.g. Bretagne), most battleships lost were due to progressive flooding. Progressive flooding is, in fact, rather the dominant mode by which large ships are lost:
It is an excellent example of what may be termed a general rule for damage primarily involving flooding which has been derived from many cases of war experience, namely,
IF THE SHIP DOES NOT SINK WITHIN A VERY FEW MINUTES AFTER DAMAGE. SHE PROBABLY WILL SURVIVE FOR SEVERAL HOURS.
Loss of NORTHAMPTON by progressive flooding also parallels other war experience which has shown that,
CASES OF LOSS BY BODILY SINKAGE, PLUNGING OR CAPSIZING SEVERAL HOURS AFTER DAMAGE HAVE BEEN ENTIRELY ATTRIBUTABLE TO PROGRESSIVE FLOODING.
Bismarck, Prince of Wales, Hiei, Kirishima, Scharnhorst, Jean Bart (technically), Musashi, Yamashiro, and Yamato were all lost to progressive flooding.
Was the loss of Nevada attributable to a design flaw? Yes, at least in part—the "bull ring" communication system allowed minor flooding in one area to spread throughout much of the ship, which when combined with a misunderstood damage control order that caused both magazines to be flooded with seawater lead to her beaching. But you'd be hard-pressed to attribute the loss of the three battleships sunk by torpedoes to the same—all were lost because the inspection hatches on the torpedo defenses were left open for Sunday inspection, and were thus simply not watertight. All ships are vulnerable to this sort of damage, which is part of why harbor attacks sink ships fairly easily—it's not a difference in their design. Because these outboard spaces were not watertight, of course Oklahoma and West Virginia continued to flood (vertically, above the torpedo defenses!) until multiple torpedoes began hitting them above the armor belt and flooding above the armor deck became unstoppable. That's simply going to be something every ship is susceptible to (e.g. Prince of Wales finally lost her battle for survival after near-miss bombs caused flooding into the empty outboard spaces of her torpedo defense system, causing a final, fatal loss of stability), not something unique to the Standards or something any other battleship would be immune to. California is an even more blatant example of damage control malfeasance, since she was outright abandoned (crew abandoning ship open hatches to escape), and entirely survivable flooding simply continued unabated until far too late when the ship was reboarded and the fires were out of control.
cyan oriole
This is a strange statement, since with the exception of sudden mass torpedo att...
I meant flooding of non-vital spaces
a ship shouldn't sink from damage that's primarily outside the citadel
obviously, something like Yamato or Musashi taking a dozen torpedo hits and sinking is not something that can be avoided
Bismarck was lost to nonvital damage above the waterline that wrecked everything that made it a warship
let's not pretend the ship would ever have been operational again, even if it hadn't been torpedoed and scuttled
cyan oriole
Was the loss of Nevada attributable to a design flaw? Yes, at least in part—the ...
still, the subdivison of the Standards was grossly inedequate
something the British loved to point out when asked why their on-paper characteristics were worse than American for the same size
there just aren't better examples than Pearl, because standards rarely suffered damage in the first place
spiral cedar
still, the subdivison of the Standards was grossly inedequate
This is a bit of a head-scratcher since the New Mexicos onwards were quite famously very finely subdivided due to their turboelectric machinery
spiral cedar
For comparison, Prince of Wales:
You could much more reasonably argue about subdivision on, say, the US treaty battleships with their 4 "unit" machinery layout, but the mid to late Standards are rather the exact opposite of this
(Or similar arguments about the Dunkerque and Richelieu machinery subdivision)
spring briar
is nice : )
built could use a bulkhead between the boilers if the displacement would've been available
spiral cedar
But in any case, the subdivision of the Standards was not relevant in their sinking at Pearl Harbor. Oklahoma sank in 15 minutes because she took (at least!) 9 torpedoes. We should immediately abolish the idea that a torpedo hit that doesn't pierce the inner holding bulkhead fails to do important damage—quite clearly, it causes flooding of the outer shell, which inherently causes a list from the imbalance of water (stability is itself a vital characteristic that is lost from any torpedo hit!). This is simply how torpedoes and torpedo defense systems work, not some function of 'subdivision.' What brought her down was not a loss of buoyancy from leaking or gradual flooding, but massive loss of stability from thousands of tons of water being added suddenly to one side. So too with West Virginia—she too was hit by 9 torpedoes, which caused a list, which caused her to roll over. The reason why I am emphasizing the role of listing and loss of stability is that these are a) the real reason for the sinkings, not "nonvital damage"—every ship ever built, even today, is vulnerable to this sort of sudden injection of many thousands of tons of imbalanced seawater, and b) subdivision cannot solve this besides chopping your ship up into ever more transverse bulkheads (something that, as the diagrams show, the New Mexicos onward did in spades). The other form of vertical subdivision—longitudinal bulkheads—actively worsens transverse stability in the event of a sudden list, which is a contributor to the rapid sinking (and heavy loss of life) of a number of ships in navies that used centerline longitudinal machinery bulkheads. You can't subdivide your way out of 9 torpedoes to one side in quick succession, but you can certainly worsen it.
In terms of how to minimize off-center flooding that causes listing and loss of stability, the actual factor we ought to look at is less a design feature and more a damage control practice—loading the outer shell of the torpedo defense system with liquid, rather than void (air). This was a lesson the USN learned from Pearl Harbor, and was then propagated to the fleet (even if Saratoga had not implemented the change by the first time she was torpedoed). This avoidance of void spaces outboard, where the listing moment is maximized when flooded, had to be learned the hard way by other navies as well (e.g. Prince of Wales suffered her final, fatal stability loss because the near-miss bombs caused these outboard void spaces to flood). That's only a design-level subdivision issue if you have a one-compartment torpedo defense system—otherwise, that's quite clearly a (pre-battle) damage control doctrine issue, since it can be swapped around even by ships at the front.
B. Liquid Loading
(Plate VII)135. The efficacy of a void space inboard of the liquid layer and directly outboard of the holding (in this case number 5) bulkhead is clearly presented here. It will be noted that transverses between numbers 2 and 3 and numbers 3 and 4 bulkheads suffered comparatively little distortion and rumpling, the liquid layers acting as a unit. However, transverse bulkheads 53 and 101, between numbers 4 and 5 bulkheads, crumpled deeply. These and the heavy I beam stiffeners (which deflected considerably) on number 4 bulkhead, seem to have absorbed most of the explosive energy and acted to shield number 5 bulkhead.
136. As a result of this and other war experience the fitting of a blister has been accomplished. It is 8-1/2 feet in width, extends from the turn of the bilge to the main and upper decks and is subdivided by a vertical longitudinal bulkhead. Thus, two additional layers are created on each side of the vessel. The new outer layer will be kept filled to the waterline at all times. The next, or new inner layer, will be kept filled to the 20'-3" waterline and the next inner (between old shell and number 1 bulkhead) layer will be carried completely full. The remaining inner four layers will be voids except the layer between old bulkheads 3 and 4 from frames 57 to 93 which will be utilized for service tanks. The advantages deriving from the new layers and liquid loading are, briefly;a) Increased freeboard, thus raising both the armor belt and the damage control deck.
b) Less possibility of oil flooding internally in the event of underwater damage. This follows from carrying fuel farther outboard.
(c) A smaller initial list in event of underwater damage. By virtue of having outboard spaces initially full, at least to the water-line, these, when ruptured, will not contribute to the list. Void spaces, being farther inboard, will not create so large a heeling moment when flooded because of the smaller moment arm.
Pre-blister
<--Outboard
0 1 2 3 4 5
| v | l | l | l | v |
| v | l | l | l | v |
| v | l | l | l | v |
| v | l | l | l | v |
-----
Post-blister
<--Outboard
-2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5
| l | v | l | v | v | s | v |
| l | l | l | v | v | s | v |
| l | l | l | v | v | s | v |
| l | l | l | v | v | s | v |
-----
Key:
l - liquid
v - void
s - service tanks
And while California was, yes, lost to progressive flooding, no ship with open watertight hatches (including open hatches in the torpedo defense!) will avoid widespread flooding. She could've had triple the number of bulkheads, and the effect would've been the same, because she wasn't buttoned up (and was mistakenly abandoned).
spring briar
spiral cedar
This is also, by the way, the reason why the oft-repeated design metric of "being able to stay afloat with flooded ends" is more of a nice design benchmark than an actually useful metric of practical warship survivability. The reality is that ships almost never receive slow drip-feed flooding into only the unarmored portions--actual battle damage nearly always involves some compromise of 'vital' spaces, and flooding overwhelmingly kills not from loss of buoyancy (what the metric covers) but from loss of stability (usually transverse). Adding unlimited subdivision helps with protecting buoyancy, but can actively worsen transverse stability in the event of rapid off-center flooding (aka, the far more common sort of war damage than symmetrical gradual flooding).
When you look at ship losses to progressive flooding, it's usually not because of sheer loss of buoyancy from overly-large compartments (the case of USS Houston, which was a 13,900 ton ship that took on 7,000 tons of seawater from flooding of all four of her main machinery spaces and survived, is illustrative). It's by far more commonly caused by list that then causes flooding over the damage control deck, which then causes the list to worsen, and so forth until the ship capsizes.
Thus the most critical factor to a ship's actual survival, rather than some theoretical measure of the total volume of water she can take on, is more often how much her initial list can be minimized from damage to one side.
grave ravine
There is some really nice discussion of this in the USNTMJ paper on the sinking of the Yamatos
spiral cedar
The reason why I emphasize this discrepancy, and the myth that "more subdivision = more ship hitpoints before sinking," is that this mistaken idea has gotten thousands of people killed in rapid ship sinkings. Bill Garzke in his book about the Titanic notes this explicitly, as he noted that because of the fear of ship collisions and icebergs, ship designers of the 1900s-1910s built ships with inboard-set longitudinal bulkheads, which directly contributed to the great loss of life when Lusitania was torpedoed and underwent a sudden listing moment:
The book also notes that while Titanic did sink, she took over two and a half hours to go down, buying considerable time for survivors to escape, in contrast to Lusitania—the torpedo hit she received, while deadlier than an iceberg collision, was reckoned to have created a hole roughly similar in dimensions to what a peacetime ship collision would have. Within 4 minutes the foredeck was submerged, the ship was going down by the bow, and the list was over 20 degrees (soon after which it became impossible to launch the port side lifeboats). The ship reached 25 degrees of list after 15 minutes and foundered after around 18 minutes.
Longitudinal bulkheads cannot be gotten rid of completely--they have some benefits in fuel bunkerage, limitation of free surface, etc.--but their dangers have to be carefully weighed and minimized, and they are a trade-off in terms of ship survivability between competing factors, not a "more = better" statistic.
The book also goes over (more briefly, since far fewer professionals advocated for it) ideas to use multiple watertight decks to make ships "unsinkable." In covering the arguments made by proponents of those and of longitudinal bulkheads, the authors use the term "naïve" a lot
grave ravine
One of the major causes of the losses of the Yamatos to (admittedly relatively large numbers of) aerial torpedoes was the fact that Japan was still using outboard void spaces in their TDS
This was combined with flaws in the TDS that allowed some flooding behind the TDS by hits that ought to have been resisted
sage fern
For the sake of making sure I get the Dual 76mm Mk37 AA guns on the correct ships, are Northampton II and CLC-1 Northampton the same ship?
grave ravine
For the sake of making sure I get the Dual 76mm Mk37 AA guns on the correct ship...
Yesn't, Northampton II is the Oregon City class ship, but in the originally designed heavy cruiser form rather than the SCB-13 command cruiser
As designed the ship would not have used the mk37s ofc
sage fern
Ah. Guess it's another one for the paper ships...
grave ravine
Its worth noting too that Northampton was never actually finished as a heavy cruiser, the ship was converted into the command cruiser while still under construction
but the ship's art and equipment in game is that of an Oregon City class heavy cruiser
cyan oriole
But in any case, the subdivision of the Standards was not relevant in their sink...
I did say that Pearl is a bad example, but since the standards rarely took damage, it was just what came up
sage fern
Thanks. I've been trying to keep everything historic. Not always easy with how much kit is missing. So I've been matching caliber and barrel count, then rarity. Got mk27s on her now.
grave ravine
Unfortunately I don't think there are actually any ships currently in game that had the 3"/70 in the form they are present in in the game
cyan oriole
Thus the most critical factor to a ship's actual survival, rather than some theo...
well, if the damage isn't too severe/suddent, there are some things you can do with counterflooding
sage fern
No. Gonna hope for Montana or something.
cyan oriole
part of why German DDs were apparently so survivable
and in some cases, like Lexington, loss of buoyancy caused by flooding on both sides (to minimize list) is the cause of death
grave ravine
Oregon city didn't have the 3"/50s either, they only had bofors and oerlikons as far as AA went
and ofc 5"/38s
cyan oriole
Unfortunately I don't think there are actually any ships currently in game that ...
the 76/70 was very rare tbf
the 76/50 twin could just be swapped for a quad bofors relatively easily, while 76/70 was a bit more intensive (kinda like British DDs swapping 102 twins for 120 twins)
grave ravine
No. Gonna hope for Montana or something.
The Montanas are an early enough design that as designed they only had bofors and oerlikons, no 3"/50s or 3"/70s
grave ravine
the 76/50 twin could just be swapped for a quad bofors relatively easily, while ...
Not that easily, the 3"/50 was still like 50% heaveir than a quad bofors
cyan oriole
yes it wasn't always possible
especially on DDs, although I think a few projects were designed with those mountings
grave ravine
but yeah the 3"/70 was pretty rare, only used by Norfolk, the Mitschers, Northampton, the Tigers, and a few Canadian ships
cyan oriole
oh if we include both the British and the American 76/70 then things are a bit more interesting
don't remember what the differences were, but the mounts were definitely different
too bad the Minotaurs never happened
grave ravine
British had a heavier and more complex mount
subtle prawn
Oregon city didn't have the 3"/50s either, they only had bofors and oerlikons as...
Wiki says Rochester had her Oerlikons and Bofors guns replaced with 3"/50
junior trench
Alsace is funny, because it's basically an Iowa sidegrade
🤨
Gonna be honest
Having a chameleon opinion as this whole thing goes on isn't a good look
grave ravine
Wiki says Rochester had her Oerlikons and Bofors guns replaced with 3"/50
yeah, so a theoretical non-SCB-13'd Northampton may have gotten 3"/50s in refit, it would really depend on if the ship was still in active service in the 50s or had moved to the reserve fleet by then
cyan oriole
Having a chameleon opinion as this whole thing goes on isn't a good look
there's a lot of nuance, and it's pointless to be stubborn in an esoteric field where there is infinite knowledge
chilly flower
Oregon city didn't have the 3"/50s either, they only had bofors and oerlikons as...
Aye, though most ships still in service (including both the Oregon Cities and Baltis) by the 50s got refitted with them, e.g. Albany here
USS Albany (CA 123) at Copenhagen, Denmark, during her visit to that port, 18-23 June 1951. USS Shannon (DM 25) is among the ships moored astern.
cyan oriole
British had a heavier and more complex mount
pretty sure the opposite is true
navweaps also lists the US mount as being 50% heavier
seems like a rare case where the US mounting is more complex than the British instead of vice-versa
maiden citrus
This is a bit of a head-scratcher since the New Mexicos onwards were quite famou...
Yeah wtf did I just wake up to
maiden citrus
Aye, though most ships still in service (including both the Oregon Cities and Ba...
yeah even dds got them, so it's reasonable most ships would have gotten them had it been necessary, the same way ships designed with 1.1''/75s got 1.6''/56s, ala Montana would have almost certainly had some
spring briar
Yeah wtf did I just wake up to
Just a lil subdivision
terse mesa
remote monolith
first volumetric estimate of Icthyotitan's weight based on the holotype, plus some roguh estimations of known specimens of giant ichthyosaurs
remote monolith
yeah they're extremely massive
we know so little about them as well
these specimens are highly fragmentary, yet the fact that they existed means there was a robust food chain during the Triassic that's enough to support these giants for millions of years
especially since the best part is they're likely orca-style predators rather than pure filter feeders
also there's the possibility that none of these are mature/fully grown specimens
maiden citrus
the triassic isso underrated
remote monolith
it really is, Late Triassic has so many freaky creatures that amounts to the reptile lineage trying out different forms and see which one sticks
aside from Dinosaurs there's land crocodiles, ichthyosaurs, a bunch of tiny reptiles with unclear categories, and more
maiden citrus
yeah the triassic is often unfortunately grouped into just 'the dinosaur times' due to their rise at its late stages, when there's all kinds of cool stuff
though speaking of that, prosauropods are wack
remote monolith
yeah the triassic is often unfortunately grouped into just 'the dinosaur times' ...
and that the Triassic-Jurassic extinction was among the most catastrophic in earth's history
maiden citrus
remote monolith
though speaking of that, prosauropods are wack
bipedal sauropods are truly a mood tbh
maiden citrus
when you almost become a theropod then just go
nah
"mom look at me I'm a theropod"
-sharp teeth
-carnivorous
-bipedal
"stop that son, go to your room and get THICC"
remote monolith
and then they get thicc and loses the bipedalism anyway
maiden citrus
they may have shrunk the dunk, but they chunked the vulcanodon
from 20 feet to almost 40, the sauropods are gaining girth as we speak
remote monolith
its curious how quick they go to chonk
we have fossils of quadruped sauropod from late triassic
maiden citrus
iirc prosauropods were some of the first dinosaurs, which seems massively underrepresented in media
remote monolith
yeah Theropod and Sauropod body plans are among the first known ones since Ornithischians only showed up in late Jurassic
and even then big theropods was only form the Jurassic while big sauropods are earlier
maiden citrus
yeah coelophysis was cool and all but wtf is that chunk over there doing
even vulcanodon is early jurassic and already over 10 tons
remote monolith
yep yep, very fast size increase in geologic times
dapper grove
Does anyone know the purpose of this on the Sverdlov's turrets?
austere crest
LIZARD
eternal veldt
Does anyone know the purpose of this on the Sverdlov's turrets?
Most likely a radar dome.
For fire control and the likes.
remote monolith
hehe, found a bunch of birch inscriptions from Novgorod online from the 1300s, local conditions preserved them really well https://www.medievalists.net/2024/11/medieval-daily-life-on-birchbark/
some of the known translated inscriptions
From Boris to Nastas’ja. As soon as this letter arrives, send me a man on a stallion, because I have a lot of work here. And send a shirt; I forgot a shirt.
From Ilijca to Il’ja. Sujga is overwriting the marks on the oaks and has taken out the honey from the hives, saying “I am taking away the oaks on my own mark.” He is cutting away the cut-mark, saying “It is my oak. Your former beekeeper has fallen into robbery.” And now come here yourself; confirm your ownership of the bee-yard.
Request from Semen to the priest Ivan. May you check up on my goods so that moths will not ruin them; I request to you, my lord, in regard of my trunk. And I have sent the key with Stepan. And the mark on the trunk is an ermine.
From Kulotka a letter to Xudota. Go to Pskov and tell them.
Greetings from Radko to father. I have sent the goods to Smolensk. But they have murdered Putlia, and they want me and Vjaceska instead of Foma, saying “Pay four hundred grivnas or call Foma here, otherwise we will put you in jail.” And greetings from Vjaceska to Lazor. I have sent the packhorse, and I myself am ready.
Greeting from Smen to my daughter-in-law. In case you have not celebrated the commemoration meal: you had malt. The rye malt is in the cellar. You take a handful, and as much flour as you need, and you bake it in the proper measure. And the meat is in the pantry. And concerning the rouble that is due to Ignat, you give it.
A letter to Zirocko and from Tesko to Vdovin. Sat to Sil’ce: “Why are you damaging other people’s pigs? Nozdr’ka has made this known. And you have disgraced the entire Ljudjin End. There has been a letter from the other side of the river. It was about horses, that you have done the same with them.”
light dagger
ivory ridge
nice
subtle prawn
autumn sorrel
Most likely a radar dome.
Trying to find more info on its but Sverdlov FCR for 152mm is "Top Bow" and I don't find any mention about an auxilary system
Plus the dome is too small for an FCR in 1950
Wait, you are actually right, somewhat
Superfiring turrets often had the Shtag-B rangefinder radar on the turret.
runic ermine
pale cloud
tardy quiver
why does super yamato have weird turret design
tacit sable
why does super yamato have weird turret design
Which Super Yamato? 
cyan oriole
why does super yamato have weird turret design
as if we know anything about super yamato aside from vague recollections from memory
all documentation was destroyed
eternal veldt
Not necessarily. Shizuo Fukui has an extensive collection of documents stored away in his attic, and his books have been a cornerstone in references when it comes to the Japanese navy.
As far as current research indicates, A-150 would carry 8 51cms, 6 pairs of 20.3cm, in an unknown configuration on the "idealistic" side.
No.798, 799 would be rearmed with 51cms, and that is the most common "super yamato" most people allege to.
rapid junco
Cruiser Tamandaré (former USS St.Louis) with a Bell 47 floating next to it
subtle prawn
desert agate
As a major cyclone barrels towards Brisbane and Northern New South Wales, I think it's interesting to reflect on the last time a major cyclone hit an Australian capital city
On Christmas Day 1974, Cyclone Tracy hit the capital of the Northern Territory, Darwin
The cyclone itself was the 2nd smallest tropical storm ever recorded, it was however, one of the most intense storms in Australian recorded history
80% of Darwin's buildings were destroyed with 94% of residences deemed uninhabitable while 66 people were killed
The devastation to the city was immense, matters were worsened by the city losing all communications to the outside world, leading to the response itself being delayed
The RAN responded to the devastation by initiating Operation Navy Help Darwin, which remains to this day the RANs largest peacetime disaster relief operation with 13 ships, including the aircraft carrier HMAS Melbourne, 11 aircraft and over 3000 personnel
The Navy itself lost 2 patrol vessels, HMA Ships Arrow and Attack, with Arrow taking 2 sailors with her
The first elements of the task force wouldn't arrive until December 31 and would remain on station for a month, conducting Search and Rescue operations, surveying of Darwin Harbour (as multiple ships were wrecked) as well as personnel restoring basic function to city services such as electricity, basic healthcare and distributing food and drinking water
Darwin itself never truly recovered from the storm, 60% of the cities population left in the years after the cyclone, from a city of about 50'000 before the cyclone
It was the 2nd time in its history that Darwin had been destroyed, the first time was by the Japanese in 1942, where much of the city was damaged, and again, many of those who fled those bombings, never returned to the city
Today the cyclone is remembered with memorials around the city, and hopefully the events of the next few days don't see a repeat of that devastating storm
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
tacit sage
Is it my device acting up or did everything from today on this channel just get deleted?
mental tapir
Probably because what was posted would be considered current events?
Yeah, mbad
fierce sparrow
runic ermine
Its also in Enlisted
subtle prawn
tribal mortar
Cool
timber linden
fierce sparrow
subtle prawn
winged patrol
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
maiden stirrup
This made me laugh. https://www.instagram.com/p/DG79mTiuWbv/?igsh=MWN4YXd6ZHozNTRrdw==
Instagram
fierce sparrow
lime scarab
Question why did the USA used double turret system, then used triple turret system
There both dreadnought with different turret system why thought?
spring briar
Question why did the USA used double turret system, then used triple turret syst...
the 14" triple armed standard battleships preceded the 16" twin armed standards
not the other way around
they chose to adopt 16" guns because foreign navies at the time were also looking into larger caliber guns
lime scarab
the 14" triple armed standard battleships preceded the 16" twin armed standards
So your saying that they used triples turrets then used for double turrets in order to stand a chance with the other navies?
spring briar
in order to future proof the colorado's yes
maiden citrus
similar weight as well, etc
fewer but more powerful guns in the same area for the same weight, doable since 4x3 guns is quite a lot
fierce sparrow
https://x.com/AviationMarlene/status/1899436037325160803
https://x.com/AviationMarlene/status/1899436059856945622
X
X
spring briar
Lol
fierce sparrow
spring briar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C45s34Dkae0
oh no
spring briar
ok it was actually a pretty good vid
cyan oriole
technically, roma also saw action on both sides
if you define action as "being bombed heavily"
subtle prawn
narrow rover
if you define action as "being bombed heavily"
Fritz X go brr
spring briar
Fritz X go brr
French tech
narrow rover
Max Kramer is credited with the idea
spring briar
The germans copied the french guidance computer
narrow rover
Could be, I mean they lifted a lot of stuff out of France
subtle prawn
cold pumice
A fun plane to add to al could be the TDR 1 an assault drone used by the US or a special skill call in for a ship like Marcus Island who can be seen here with them
loud comet
what is the differences between 37 mm/70 Mle 1935 and ACAD Mle 1936?
is the model 1935 gun only, while the model 1936 the gunhouse?
eternal veldt
The gun is 1935, the mount is 1936
Just like how the 5"/38 is designated Mark 12, but the gunhouses are designated many different marks depending on single, twin, enclosed, pedestal, etc.
frozen kestrel
Yeah, and then the turrets for the Fletchers are a whole bundle of fun, because what the FUCK is the difference between a single knuckle and a double knuckle turret
subtle prawn
stoic tiger
fierce sparrow
subtle prawn
timber linden
Remember when I posted modern stuff and everyone yelled at me
burnt scarab
Guys, I'm watching Saving Private Ryan
remote monolith
burning villages in Surabaya, 1945, in the aftermath of the Battle of Surabaya between British forces and local Indonesian forces https://www.rxddit.com/r/indonesia/comments/1jci2uj/burning_villages_in_surabaya_27_november_1945/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
burnt scarab
Wait. General Terry Allen is a gangster ?! He was such a nice man Hermit. Also, he was the head of US 1st Infantry Division and was under Patton's Command too
subtle prawn
frozen kestrel
Bit of an odd thing, here. I was messing around with the models from Crosswave and decided, just for the hell of it, to open up the "Light Cruiser" model.
So what the fuck is this thing?
Doesn't look like any IJN light cruiser-class I know of, and the armament is just... cursed
You've got two of the typical twin five-inch DD mounts you'd find on most IJN destroyers
And then this godforsaken thing right here
like, what cruiser even has this kind of turret layout?
assuming it even is a light cruiser
timber linden
Didn't the hatsu have a wierd turret layout. One of the mid tier wows jap dds had something like that
grave ravine
Yeah it looks a lot like a hatsuharu
timber linden
frozen kestrel
Quads, and rather odd looking ones at that
also, the brick thing on it's kinda reminding me of that one lego piece
this one
welp, I guess the "light cruiser" is actually just a Shiratsuyu
let's see what bundle of fun the heavy cruiser is
it's an agano
and hello nagato
scarlet valley
And history on Russian aircraft carriers?
I know the didn’t have the biggest navy but maybe some paper ships that they planned on doing
subtle prawn
runic ermine
https://bsky.app/profile/navalinstitute.bsky.social/post/3lkmucfepss2g
Rip to the last of the few
thorn widget
Nautilis Live is going to do an expedition to Iron Bottom Sound this year
subtle prawn
frozen kestrel
so, I've got a bit of a weird thing here. This thing I'm watching (made in Trainz 2019, I think) has a recreation of the Halifax explosion, and I'm trying to figure what ships they used to do it. The gray one (used to represent SS Imo) kinda looks like an American or British design, but I'm having trouble finding a match.
Same thing for the white one (Representing the Mont-Blanc), which seems to be a converted passenger liner from the way it looks. Though gun mounts on the deck seem to be German in origin, so it may be a German auxiliary cruiser? Only problem with that narrative is all German auxiliary cruisers had a single funnel.
timber linden
Nautilis Live is going to do an expedition to Iron Bottom Sound this year
China needs more steel
thorn widget
nah i genuinely hope that anyone who disturbs war graves gets hit by a tomohawk missile
mental tapir
Alternatively, nuke the area so that the steel isn't low-radiation anymore 
pallid grove
#gameplay-help message @half ember The Molotov-Ribbontrop Pact
half ember
thorn widget
Alternatively, nuke the area so that the steel isn't low-radiation anymore <:Ess...
not quite how that works but sure
eternal veldt
Alternatively, nuke the area so that the steel isn't low-radiation anymore <:Ess...
It is still steel, steel sells
A major issue, in the case of Prince of Wales and Repulse, are that both wrecks sit in shallow areas accessible to salvagers
To play the devil's advocate, some form of desecration is unavoidable
runic ermine
To play the devil's advocate, some form of desecration is unavoidable
Because there's no punishment
eternal veldt
Case in point, the wreck of Nachi sits in a major waterway of Manila Bay and poses navigational risks to shipping, so it was demolished in its entirety - does that count?
Its a point of morality, but in the case of salvagers, its probably a case of livelihood. Its a shitty one and unjustifiable in the moral sense, but...it pays.
timber linden
timber linden
Its a point of morality, but in the case of salvagers, its probably a case of li...
Lets build condos on your countries war cemetery. Builders gotta build.
eternal veldt
Already happened.
More importantly, I'm not sure why you are using condos as the analogy here - my argument to why people do it is usually for livelihood. It's bad business, but there's a reason why it exists, especially in the SEA region.
timber linden
People that do illegal things for jobs should be villianized not venerated.
eternal veldt
...That is very obvious, yes.
subtle prawn
brave elbow
Damage to the lone star flight museum caused by hurricane ike.
grave ravine
Damage to the lone star flight museum caused by hurricane ike.
Lone Star Flight Museum is unfortunately not doing so hot right now, they recently had to sell off their SBD
brave elbow
Lone Star Flight Museum is unfortunately not doing so hot right now, they recent...
Wait really
burnt scarab
The Iron Bottom Kaiser, I remember hearing that in the Kancolle movie
flint mesa
kancolle got movie?
runic ermine
kancolle got movie?
Yes but it didn't release outside of Japan due to backlash against the first season
flint mesa
backlash for what?
runic ermine
backlash for what?
Just to name a few:
-Demonization of the United States
-Showing Japan winning the Battle of Midway
-Describing Operation AI (The Japanese invasion of the Aleutian Islands and the interment of their inhabitants into camps where over half of them were killed) as a diversion
-Some of the bad guys being based on American navy personnel from WW2 (Henry Elrod, Bull Halsey, and Nimitz. Apparently two of the Abyssal commanders are based off of them in S2 but I can't find an image rn. However I do know that season 2 is about the Battle of Leytte Gulf)
timber linden
Just to name a few:
-Demonization of the United States
-Showing Japan winning t...
To be fair Halsey, at times, did more damage to the USN then the japanese
subtle prawn
https://xcancel.com/BAESystemsplc/status/1902797144362205282
https://fxtwitter.com/RoyalNavy/status/1902768262502351084
runic ermine
https://xcancel.com/BAESystemsplc/status/1902797144362205282
https://fxtwitter.c...
Is Britain ruling the waves again?
timber linden
Is Britain ruling the waves again?
Doubt
flint mesa
Doubt
desert agate
People that do illegal things for jobs should be villianized not venerated.
Sincerely, why should these people care about those ships?
Why would an Indonesian care what we think about the ships that were lost in their waters
I’m not happy about the desecration of war graves but those people have no reason to care what we think, and we clearly don’t care enough to actually protect them
grave ravine
USS Santa Fe helping to fight the fires aboard Franklin
timber linden
I’m not happy about the desecration of war graves but those people have no reaso...
The protection should come from the international law the states them as a special case. Enforcement is hard without the moral ability or will to glass people. There are no consequences now a days on the international stage for bad actors, like there are no bad consequences for individuals. For what they think, I guess that is the difference between cultures and how they value things. Though the west does collect things from battlegrounds. One could probably argue a difference between study and preservation vs discretion for greed.
Yes, will to admit bad faith actors all over the place but they should carry the same punishment.
remote monolith
I mean the wreckages are already protected and Malaysian authorities are cooperating to help preserve them alongside Britain
its just that all nations involved are seemingly doing shit jobs at actually preserving it, Britain included\
timber linden
Uk like the king of Rohan listening to Wormtounge
subtle prawn
fierce sparrow
. . .
spring briar
fighter gens are stupid
frozen kestrel
They're gonna give it some bullshit name and EVERYONE is going to call it something else
fierce sparrow
You know, I was expecting Lockheed Martin going to win.
But Boeing??? That's a weird turn...
subtle prawn
Some are speculating it's because LM's got a huge backlog of orders currently while Boeing isn't having much success and they're giving it to them to keep them in the ring
manic latch
You know, I was expecting Lockheed Martin going to win.
But Boeing??? That's a w...
Boeing is suffering financially
They need something to sell
So next gen fighter is ideal
I don't trust it given problems T-7 and KC-46 is having
But oh well
grim marsh
History "fun" fact of the day :
In world war 2,
Bombing on Tokyo killed more people than atomic bombing on Nagasaki
autumn sorrel
History "fun" fact of the day :
In world war 2,
Bombing on Tokyo killed more pe...
I mean, Atomic bomb just killed people faster when compare to US fire bombing
runic ermine
I mean, Atomic bomb just killed people faster when compare to US fire bombing
And less people than an invasion
autumn sorrel
As you can see, Atomic bomb is much more efficient
grim marsh
As you can see, Atomic bomb is much more efficient
it may be too much efficient
well depends if its fission or fusion bomb
fierce sparrow
Mentioning the M109... along with repeated failures to replace it, sigh.
Billions of dollars... down the drain...
runic ermine
X
timber linden
Boeing is suffering financially
Hopefully they unf*ck themselves and make a good plane
grave ravine
Hopefully they unf*ck themselves and make a good plane
The QC issues that Boeing has been struggling with don't seem to have spread to the St Louis plant
timber linden
The QC issues that Boeing has been struggling with don't seem to have spread to ...
Good
narrow rover
I mean, Atomic bomb just killed people faster when compare to US fire bombing
If you can bomb people slowly you can bomb them quickly
desert agate
The protection should come from the international law the states them as a speci...
I am making a moral argument not a legal one
Obviously the legality is clear
But if laws truly stopped people then we wouldn’t be having this discussion
mint quiver
Japanese industry had 10% capability compared to the US
Unless the American government literally collapsed there wasn't much chances for victory
mint quiver
Is Britain ruling the waves again?
*Local swimming pool
desert agate
Ah yes 10% industry what a clearly defined and measurable metric for how to compare these two nations
I think people regularly undersell the capability of Japanese industry, yes it was limited but a not insignificant factor in that was not material and more with the massive mismanagement and poor planning that the fascist government encouraged
Had Japanese industry not been entirely mismanaged during the war I think we would have seen a considerably better output on their part, obviously not nearly enough to turn the tide of the war but when we have instances of the entire aviation industry making a double digit number of dive bombers in 1942, it’s very clearly not an issue of capacity and more one of management
supple sandal
*See a handful of escort carriers and destroyers
"Holy shit is that the pride of the USN? The fleet carriers? The fast carrier task force? Escorted by heavy cruisers? We hit the jackpot"
mint quiver
They also did not possess enough natural resources to meaningfully utilize the increased productivity
And they would still be far behind US anyways
Next on the list is Sino-Japanese war and afterwards we have IJA/IJN infighting
desert agate
Despite your use of a racial slur, you're not wrong about that assessment, however what you ignore is that for the first few years of the Pacific War, the Americans had much the same attitude, to their detriment.
It is honestly a miracle of fate that the Americans managed to squeeze out a victory at Midway, they had every factor going against them in numbers, experience, training and coordination of their forces. By rights, the USN should have been defeated at Midway, obviously that wouldn't materially change the outcome of the war but I think the point stands that the Americans and the Allies in the Pacific in general were hardly exempt from their own foolish ideas of supremacy
desert agate
They also did not possess enough natural resources to meaningfully utilize the i...
That is wrong, the resources most certainly existed, the output of Japanese industry from 1944-45 is, if anything proof that Japanese industry had the capacity to manufacture war material at dramatic rate, however by that time of course it was too little too late
Perhaps had the Japanese kicked themselves into gear earlier, and not only that, produced equipment of quality (most of the equipment from that later year of the war was far from quality), the Allies would have found a much bloodier and much slower advance through the Pacific.
I of course reiterate
Japan would produce just fifty-six carrier attack aircraft during all of 1942–a pathetically low figure. Thus, even though Japan had won a string of stunning victories and its combat losses had been extraordinarily light for the territory it had gained, Japan’s aircraft industry was not keeping up with even these modest demands. The result was a dramatic shortage of aircraft making their way to the fleet.
In fact, Nakajima had stopped production of the Type 97 altogether in anticipation of fielding the new Tenzan torpedo bomber and had to be asked to restart production to meet war needs. Aichi, the builder of the D3A Type 99 dive-bomber, was in the same position. It was focusing all of its efforts on ironing out the production issues associated with the new D4Y and was neglecting production of the older platform. Consequently, by the middle of 1942, production of carrier bombers and attack aircraft had temporarily ground to a near halt and was completely insufficient to replace ongoing combat and operational losses.
supple sandal
Despite your use of a racial slur, you're not wrong about that assessment, howev...
Really
That is a slur?
desert agate
'Jap' is an offensive racial slur yes
mint quiver
Really
That is a slur?
Bro is literally an IJN fan no.1
desert agate
lmao no
Theres a difference between saying "The Japanese could have done better in WW2" and being in any way shape or form pro-Japan
mint quiver
Theres a difference between saying "The Japanese could have done better in WW2" ...
Man you responded to my first post by a wall of text
You got rage baited
desert agate
I don't like such overarching statements like "Japan had 10% the industry of the US" because that's just HOI4 brained
I'm sorry for trying to have a discussion about WW2 in the history channel I guess
mint quiver
I'm sorry for trying to have a discussion about WW2 in the history channel I gue...
Because welp uhhhh no matter how many what ifs you throw
They still lost
wintry moat
Bro
desert agate
I never said otherwise
wintry moat
What
desert agate
I feel like you're just missing my point
wintry moat
the USN even with the victory at Midway had a long war to still fight
look at guadalcanal
desert agate
Guadalcanal was less important than New Guinea but we're not ready for that discussion
wintry moat
true, I'm still all amateur at this, but still
desert agate
My point from the start is and was that Japan could have and arguably should have performed better than it did, and a lot of the reasons for that are systematic failures of fascism but a fair amount of it also just came down to blind luck
charred perch
I don't like such overarching statements like "Japan had 10% the industry of the...
Hirohito just called from 1942 he would like to give you a 1st Class, Grand Cordon of the Order of the Rising Sun for defending the honor of Japan’s heavenly mandate to rule Asia on the internet in 2025
desert agate
Tell him he can hand it to me at Kokoda
grave ravine
~~Guadalcanal was less important than New Guinea but we're not ready for that di...
I'd argue that Guadalcanal drew out more significant naval resources, but ultimately both campaigns were important and there is no point in trying to get into a pissing match about it
charred perch
Oh yeah he like would but he’s fucking dead
desert agate
Well if he's calling from 1942 then he clearly isn't lmao
charred perch
I must say tho Musashi is a pretty cool submarine
Shit’s been diving longer than any modern day nuclear sub
grave ravine
My point from the start is and was that Japan could have and arguably should hav...
Eh, I mean there were clear inefficiencies in the way every power waged WW2
charred perch
desert agate
Americans with their ice cream barges when the British literally commissioned a floating brewery
wintry moat
Wasn't their a bit of trading between the two services
like Ice cream for different alcohols
I think I've heard that, but idk if I'm nuts
desert agate
Not really with the British, they arrived in theatre too late but the Australians routinely traded alcohol for American goods
The RAAFs Aerial minelaying operations, while basically crippling Japanese oil exports from the East Indes also conveniently kept American sailors and airmen supplied with a steady supply of Australian beer and rum
wintry moat
lol
mint quiver
My point from the start is and was that Japan could have and arguably should hav...
And my point was that unless US Navy leadership was bunch of lobotomized chimpanzees or Russian Navy there is no logical way for the Japanese to win just because US has so much technological, industrial, resource and manpower overhead
desert agate
I never said there was a way for the Japanese to win
You're intentionally missing my point my guy
wintry moat
All he was saying is that Japan could and arguably should, have done better
grave ravine
I mean while I agree that Japan ultimately could have waged its war more efficiently, I think its equally worth noting that so could the US
desert agate
I don't think Allied inneficiencies were so dramatic as to lengthen the war by several years, as Japanese inneficiencies shortened it
mint quiver
I mean while I agree that Japan ultimately could have waged its war more efficie...
But US could afford to make mistakes while every mistake Japanese made was bleeding them out profusely
grave ravine
a potentially more effective defense of the Philippines would have thrown a massive wrench in the Japanese timetable for their offensives
desert agate
Allied inneficiencies are more along the lines of maybe if MacArthur wasn't such a cunt, Okinawa wouldn't have been quite as deadly for the Allies
Actually maybe I shouldn't bring up MacArthur at all because his mere existence is an Allied inneficiency
He should have been shot for what he did in the Philippines not given a promotion
Certainly would have saved a few thousand Australians from their deaths, and god knows how many Americans
eternal veldt
Both sides had made their own assumptions and mistakes about the war, and in turn, cost them dearly in one way or another.
Up until Coral Sea, the Japanese advance throughout the Pacific has been mostly left unchecked, not helped by the total loss of all capital ships in Force Z and the rapid fall of Singapore
Combined with the ineffective submarine warfare due to faulty torpedoes on the US, there is much left to be desired in the early allied conduct in the Pacific war.
Midway, as hit stated, could have been a totally different story even if one or two variables were off, such as Dick Best not breaking off from McClusky (and leaving Akagi's lethal and experienced torpedo squadron thus intact), amidst other things - which would hinder US operations.
As for whether the US leadership is lobotomized - On the Mark 14 issue, the BuOrd certainly is until the submarine commanders started breaking doors down and said "your torpedoes are dogshit and my logs are the irrefutable proof" to them.
zealous vine
Hey
Was there ever a 9 to 13 gun guideline for Italian battleships?
I swear I've read it somewhere
Also, is there a reliable source where I can read about Japanese prelim projects
I got dragged into this rabbit hole reading about a 2x7 and a 3x6 torp arrangement Shima
mint quiver
Up until Coral Sea, the Japanese advance throughout the Pacific has been mostly ...
This plus they had almost no way of resupply and at this point if the war the American equipment was not match for Japanese stuff
Secondary there is a fog of war so the information they got was imperfect you dont know what enemy is trying to do what they are going to do
you can only assume
MacArthur was facing basically facing Japanese elite with subpar equipment and C tier divisions
mint quiver
As for whether the US leadership is lobotomized - On the Mark 14 issue, the BuOr...
Then again you have HE-VT shells,F6F,Radio intelligence etc
The allies adapted way quicker compared to their Japanese counterparts and overall the intelligence of Allies was superior by large margin to their axis contemporaries which again was a huge force multiplier for them
For all the things Allies did wrong they then did it double times right
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
remote haven
history-related, more preserving history. USNI appeal for better, more broadly open chances for newer ships to be retained as museums. good read: https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2025/january/shore-navy-museum-ship-program
remote monolith
would be great if the bar gets lowered yeah
although I understand that during times of mostly peace its a bit difficult for warships to achieve a lot of renown and prestige
opal aspen
-_-
remote haven
the fact that no Arleigh Burke would qualify itself is a big issue
at least one of those needs to be saved
mint quiver
remote haven
oh jesus no this doesn't need to contiunue
hoary kiln
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzzsNuWlyHc
Trying to find a "country that single-handedly won WWII/WWI" is pretty stupid anyways. The US were probably in capacity of winning over germany in WWII, but the soviets had been intensely fighting and putting heavy casualties to the German army since 41-42.
The proportions aren't the same either. The Soviets had to push through 2M troops, and managed to reach Berlin through them, while the US had the support of the entire Commonwealth, which did contribute quite a lot.
Saying the Soviet didn't contribute to the war as much as the US because of lost troops is also quite stupid, lost troops and material isn't correlated to how much a country participated. Although it does show the "meatgrinder" strategy on the soviet front for both parties.
Anyways, conclusion is that the whole discussion is nonsense.
remote haven
POV: Americans finding out in real time the world doesn't think they're the best
mint quiver
Trying to find a "country that single-handedly won WWII/WWI" is pretty stupid an...
I mean the core of why i even bothered is because of "USSR won the war alone"
mint quiver
I do not say that Soviets did nothing
hoary kiln
In this particular case, then I agree
mint quiver
But ignoring the Land-Lease by itself and saying that they did not need it is just plain bullshit
Same with US superduper men saving the world
But you cannot deny that the US was lifeline for the war effort in Europe
Im not going to pull up a excel spreadsheet
remote haven
this is getting dangerously close to the "you didn't say thank you' approach to foreign policy of the current administration
mint quiver
but the logistics were equally as important as the actuall fighting itself
remote haven
but yes, American was special and did their special thing and the world loves them now and forever the end
mint quiver
this is getting dangerously close to the "you didn't say thank you' approach to ...
Im not American i do not like Americans that much
im a wehraboo
remote haven
stop @'ing me, thanks
mint quiver
aigh
runic ermine
Would the USSR sending tanks to China, Mongolia and Yugoslavia count as a form of lend lease?
mint quiver
Would the USSR sending tanks to China, Mongolia and Yugoslavia count as a form o...
Technically yes
runic ermine
Technically yes
And I guess Poland and Czechoslovakia as well
Technically
And like everyone who switched sides
Aka Romania, Bulgaria and even Finland
mint quiver
Albeit at this point Poland and Czechoslovakia didn't exist whilst Mongolia was essentially a Soviet puppet and China is a can of worms i dont want to open
And Yugo got equipment from every allied major country
mint quiver
And like everyone who switched sides <:EssexWheeze:1113921620277461033>
They didn't really have choice at this point
runic ermine
Albeit at this point Poland and Czechoslovakia didn't exist whilst Mongolia was ...
Yeah that's why I said technically
runic ermine
And Yugo got equipment from every allied major country
A kitbashed a lot of it
desert agate
MacArthur was facing basically facing Japanese elite with subpar equipment and C...
There is literally no universe in which the AIF can be considered C tier
MacArthur basically went out of his way to sabotage the AIF and AMF forces under his command and they still won
The American troops under MacArthurs command at this stage were yes entirely unprepared for battle in the South Pacific but they numbered a mere few thousand compared to the AIF and AMF forces
woeful hull
Wreak of Strasbourg in Toulon after she was scuttled
eternal veldt
This is more so in 1944 when she was used as a blockship and bombed by US planes. Strasbourg as scuttled is relatively intact and partially salvaged.
eternal veldt
You do not want to see Algérie or Dunkerque then.
frozen kestrel
Who's the one that had too much to drink?
mint quiver
MacArthur basically went out of his way to sabotage the AIF and AMF forces under...
Can you at least specify exactly what MacArthur did there
They had food supplies for 2 months
They were essentially starving during the third month
And the Philippines blockaded
desert agate
Right we're discussing different parts of MacArthurs idiocy
The AIF and AMF did not serve in the Philippines as Australian troops were not deployed that far North, I was referring to the New Guinea campaign, not the Philippines
In any case MacArthur had most of his air forces destroyed on the ground before the Japanese even landed, in spite of knowing that a landing was coming and that the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbour hours ago, and completely failed to ready his troops for the campaign, he also flip flopped on his defence plan in the weeks leading up to December 7/8 which severely hampered his eventual defence of Bataan
The destruction of Clark Field should have ended MacArthur's career then and there, the fact that he recovered from that is I suppose a compliment to his excellent ability to control media narratives
MacArthur was also a coward for fleeing
desert agate
So none of that actually acknowledges my criticisms of MacArthur at Clark Field and if anything acknowledges MacArthur's egotism
An optimist by nature, with implicit faith in the Philippine people, MacArthur was able to inspire the confidence and loyalty of his associates and staff. His optimism was contagious and infected the highest officials in the War Department and the government. By the fall of 1941 there was a firm conviction in Washington and in the Philippines that, given sufficient time, the defenders could successfully resist a Japanese attack.
Almost from the date that he was recalled to active duty in the Philippines, on 26 July 1941, MacArthur began to think about replacing WPO-3 with a new plan. [4] From the first, he apparently intended to defend the Inland Seas and the entrances to Manila and Subic Bays, and by September his plans had progressed so far that he informed Maj. Gen. Jonathan M. Wainwright of his intention to reorganize the forces in the Philippines and to give that officer his choice of commands. [5]
There could be no adequate defense of Manila Bay or of Luzon, he said, if an enemy were to be allowed to land and secure control of any of the southern islands
The strength and composition of the defense forces projected here," General MacArthur asserted, "are believed to be sufficient to accomplish such a mission."
MacArthur should have known his forces were inadequate for the type of battle he wanted to fight, and he should not have been caught by surprise at Clark Field
If he truly wanted to avoid being besieged, he wouldn't have allowed his primary aviation assets to be destroyed in the opening hours of the conflict
There is 0 good reason for MacArthur to have had most of his air forces, the pivotal arm of his defence of the Philippines, on the ground 8 hours after the attack on Pearl
remote haven
Who's the one that had too much to drink?
one of the La Galissonnieres, if not La Gal herself
desert agate
Even if his troops were capable of defending those beaches, without air cover any defence would be short lived, by the time MacArthur returned to the original plan to defend Bataan (A plan that was hopelessly optimistic regardless), most of the supplies stockpiled for the original plan had been dispersed to storage dumps around the Philippines, those storage dumps which were rapidly falling into Japanese hands
remote haven
Who's the one that had too much to drink?
ah there it is, yeah USAAF photo positively IDs it as a La Gal, likely the class ship
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Battleship_Strasbourg_after_bomb_attack,_1944.jpg
desert agate
MacArthur could not have won in the Philippines, no commander could have, but without a doubt he made all the worst possible decisions and kneecapped his own defence. Compare the Philippines to Malaya and the Commonwealth troops, who inflicted greater casualties among the Japanese with a comparably sized force in a shorter timeframe
mint quiver
MacArthur should have known his forces were inadequate for the type of battle he...
To be completely honest
Most of the aircraft there wouldn't make a difference
Too old not enough
But regardless of if MacArthur was a good or bad commander
desert agate
Most of the fighters were P-40s which were more than capable of standing against the assets the IJNAS and IJAAS were deploying
mint quiver
Man at this point in the war US pilots still were trying to dogfight A6Ms
Second they had whole 40 of them
desert agate
You're not wrong but the point stands that any resistance is better than no resistance, and losing the bombers was a far, far more crucial defeat
desert agate
Second they had whole 40 of them
40 at Clark and 60 deployed elsewhere in the area
desert agate
with 11 hours notice the FEAF should have been on high alert, not eating lunch
mint quiver
desert agate
His planes were caught on the ground, parked wingtip to wingtip in a peacetime spotting formation, at the very least a prudent commander would order his planes dispersed around the airfield so that they wouldn't be destroyed in a single strafe
mint quiver
Going by that logic Pearl Harbor shouldn't happen at all
desert agate
Pearl was a surprise attack, and notably even with that being the case, the commanders involved were all dismissed in disgrace
mint quiver
Amerikunts maybe ain't the smartest but they adapt quickly
desert agate
MacArthur was inflexible and idiotic
viral maple
Light cruiser USS Detroit, among many other vessels, gearing up for the attacks on Iwo-Jima.
desert agate
Again, 11 hours after Pearl Harbour, his bombers were lined up wingtip to wingtip on the tarmac, and in spite of what Wikipedia says, a large number of his fighters were also on the ground
mint quiver
I just want unbiased read on MacArthur because I ain't trusting any reddit post or by Allah redditors
desert agate
You'll find there are very few unbiased views on the man
He's either a saint who can do no wrong or the devil himself
Personally I think it's impossible to look at the mans career and think the world wouldn't have been a better place had he not left Bataan
And the 2000 Australians he killed in Borneo for the sake of his ego would no doubt agree with me
mint quiver
It does not matter unless you are the General yourself in the same exact spot you cannot accurately judge if the decision was right or wrong because history you get is often twisted
*Americans
desert agate
I think it's appropriate to think of MacArthur in a similar light to Joe Stilwell as a man who was promoted well beyond his compentency, the difference between Stilwell and MacArthur though, is that he knew how to use the media and politicians to his advantage
He was very much a politician, and an excellent orator, which allowed him to basically write his own legacy, and he kept a close circle of confidants who helped him shore up his image
It is however rather evident that Curtin hated him, as much as he pretended that he didn't, Blamey fought with him constantly and other senior AIF officers thought he didn't have a clue what he was doing
MacArthur caused so much stress on Curtin that it no doubt contributed to his death
mint quiver
MacArthur is such a polarizing figure that the discussions about him are just throwing shit at each other
Can't find shit that i would say is definitive proof if he was terrible or not
And by god only thing I care about is hating on USSR and their shitty doctrine
desert agate
Read a book about the Pacific war I guess
I don't really recommend him as a historian but Kokoda by Peter FitzSimons is at the very least an interesting account of the first year of the war in the South Pacific and he does share some good quotes and anecdotes about the Kokoda Track and MacArthurs own involvement in that campaign
Kokoda is definitely one of his better books but FitzSimons is a nationalist and republican and makes no effort to hide that bias in his writings, but if you can look past it he does write well
His book is probably the most accessible book on the campaign, I wouldn't go into it expecting in depth detail or anything, there are certainly better authors, Australian or American, and you can take his personal anecdotes with a grain of salt (one of his biggest flaws is relying on primary sources over secondary ones to the point of contradicting accepted historiography) but Kokoda is definitely one of his better books, and one of his better researched books
At the very least unlike his book on Tobruk he doesn't go around glazing Rommel and denying German/Italian atrocities against North African Jews
The only time I'd ever cite FitzSimons is when he's directly quoting someone else, which to his credit he does a lot
mint quiver
desert agate
Felton is a qualified historian, FitzSimons is a sports commentator who married a celebrity
supple sandal
Is there a difference between a qualified historian and a guy that just read a script off Wikipedia?
desert agate
He's a journalist who basically writes his books using the same methods he would write a news story
remote monolith
qualified historian with a nasty case of plagiarism for his videos and who kinda fell into a conspiracy hole for clicks
you could say somewhat bog standard honestly
supple sandal
I like his intro music tho
desert agate
Felton has citeable books just don't watch his videos
remote monolith
his works definitely aren't the magnum opus that are Glantz or Stahel
they're more general items
mint quiver
Is there a difference between a qualified historian and a guy that just read a s...
Hard question
Had had some good videos before "wuz die glocke real"
"did herman goring eat Hitler in 1945"
supple sandal
"did herman goring eat Hitler in 1945"
I want to watch that
desert agate
Good luck finding something Herman Voering didn't eat
mint quiver
Ty tyryry
supple sandal
Inb4 moderators kills us all for vore
remote monolith
Felton has citeable books just don't watch his videos
they're fine, but imo you'd be better off with more specific historians, like Deborah Lipstadt for holocaust denialism, Robet van Pelt for Auschwitz or Stahel for newer-ish info about the Battle of Moscow
mint quiver
Wtf
desert agate
My biggest issue with FitzSimons is just that he loves to insert his own politics into his writings to the point where sometimes it gets insufferable
He'd be a much better historian if he didn't spend half a chapter of every book talking about why Australia should be a republic and all that shit
supple sandal
What's the problem then?
mint quiver
@narrow rover
supple sandal
<@411782100853981185>
I failed to see anything wrong just yet
narrow rover
I think it's appropriate to think of MacArthur in a similar light to Joe Stilwel...
Pretty much all the major US commanders that fought in Asia had some controversy
And later the occupation of Korea went extremely poorly as well as their handling of US-China relations, the occupation of Japan was only successful because Japan was exhausted and really didn't feel like rebelling
I'm actually inclined to say there was a structural issue with the US military at the time when it came to working with allies...
Oh yea, also Mark Clark
desert agate
MacArthur still managed to murder innocent black servicemen in Japan to avoid executing white soldiers for rape
So idk I think his personal controversies are a little more severe than the rest
narrow rover
D Mac was an asshole yea
supple sandal
That time when Halsey stopped blocking the Japanese and doesn't tell his allies is one small example
My dumbass thought his name is holsay for reason
remote monolith
yes
the Great Northern War
Russian Navy under Peter I more or less molly-whallopped the then-powerful Swedish Navy
desert agate
they did about as well as they could have in the Crimean War
remote monolith
also in fairness the 1st Pacific Squadron did put up hell of a fight against Japan
narrow rover
also in fairness the 1st Pacific Squadron did put up hell of a fight against Jap...
They did well for a force that was basically set up to lose tbh
remote monolith
it just so happens their best admiral ran into a mine and sunk with his ship, and the second best one quickly followed
quickly followed as in he got hit by a direct battleship shot to the face
remote monolith
They did well for a force that was basically set up to lose tbh
they did keep trying to aggressively challenge the Japanese blockade
Makarov and Vitgeft dying more or less completely shatter Russian morale
desert agate
People are unfairly harsh on Rozhestvensky I think
Yes he made a lot of errors but really he was given an impossible task and a force that wasn't up to it either
He did what he could with what he had, which wasn't a lot
remote monolith
Rozhestvensky is generally competent yeah, its really not his fault the Russian Empire used the Baltic Fleet as a dumping ground for the worst recruits and the oldest ships
desert agate
He also did his best to defend the other commanders in the battle in his court martial
I have to respect the selflessness
supple sandal
Rozhestvensky is generally competent yeah, its really not his fault the Russian ...
So that summed up most of Russia pretty well
spring briar
Was there a period of time where Rus navy was actually competent
~1800-1855
Especially Sinop
narrow rover
Rozhestvensky is generally competent yeah, its really not his fault the Russian ...
The Japanese themselves showed some pity towards the guy iirc
Japan thought they would either inch out a minor victory or fight to a standstill, I mean that was the most likely conclusion considering Japan isn't storming Moscow, Russia isn't landing on Tokyo Bay
But luck was on their side, and they pulled off a major victory
You kinda wonder what would have happened if the fight was a standstill like how it was probably supposed to go
eternal veldt
The major issue is that Tsushima is predictable to a T for the relatively worn russian fleet.
Akiyama was able to pinpoint which route the Russians would take, and it conveniently is the Tsushima strait due to the convenience and directness to Vladivostok.
Any other route exposes the fleet to further opportunities of attack, be it capital ships or torpedo boats.
eternal veldt
Rozhestvensky is generally competent yeah, its really not his fault the Russian ...
Not helpful as mentioned here before that there was much communist propaganda about him and the 2nd fleet in the aftermath, which still circulates to this day.
subtle prawn
Thanks Drach
narrow rover
The major issue is that Tsushima is predictable to a T for the relatively worn r...
For the fight against Russia to go any differently for Japan, really the land war has to go differently
Or maybe if Japan gets less concessions out of China in the war of 1895 the Russians won't be as concerned
But we don't exactly know what happened in that war
All the records were incinerated in the chaos in China that followed and apparantly for some fucking reason Japanese records didn't fare much better
timber linden
I see torpedo boats
mint quiver
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ag2x3CS9M Going back to how much outclassed the Japanese were in the Pacific
Destroyer a day is funny as hell
And its a partial reason why i find it funny when people say that US didn't win allies the war on both Pacific and in Europe
they didn't
but their Military Industrial Complex did
same with Land-lease
its not because i love US
but because you cannot argue with numbers
US industry just overshadowed the Axis powers and even if you would combine all of em into single faction
The US still wins
The amount of planes the produced for Marine Corps alone is almost equal to whole Japanese aircraft production
narrow rover
People say that because it's also true that the US suffered minimal casualties compared to everyone else that lost several percents of their population ESPECIALLY the USSR
But... to put it bluntly, you aren't going to repel the enemy by dying
flint mesa
Well before the US join the war, mission to counter AXIS power on sea is done by HMS and almost only HMS, gonna say the British still got powerful navy in Europe at early of WW2
mint quiver
Well before the US join the war, mission to counter AXIS power on sea is done by...
British were a legacy navy and the Plan Z was suposed to take 10 years to match the RN
Because Germans actually werent planning for the war as it was
You could say that WW2 was a little oopsie
on their part
runic ermine
People say that because it's also true that the US suffered minimal casualties c...
Percent to population, Poland, Greece, Yugoslavia, and the USSR
All over 10% of their pre-war populations
mint quiver
Btw USSR losses were huge in part to their shitty doctrine
runic ermine
Because Germans actually werent planning for the war as it was
Also the Italians told them not to go to war until at least 1942
grave ravine
Because Germans actually werent planning for the war as it was
The war started at a fairly opportune time for Germany, as the Western powers ramped up their rearmament they would have swiftly started out producing Nazi Germany
runic ermine
Btw USSR losses were huge in part to their shitty doctrine
Also because the T26 and BT series of tanks are ment for offensive operations
mint quiver
The war started at a fairly opportune time for Germany, as the Western powers ra...
Thats real
mint quiver
Also because the T26 and BT series of tanks are ment for offensive operations
Soviet Army was a huge mess in 1941
narrow rover
Just how Germany got so ludicrously lucky is something of a source of debate to this day
grave ravine
Plan Z would not have allowed the Kriegsmarine to match the RN, because the RN had similar plans to just build even more ships
runic ermine
Soviet Army was a huge mess in 1941
But how they turned it around is really something
mint quiver
Alogside with Stalin havin trouble with beliving that the Germany has invaded him
grave ravine
And of course on the other side of the Atlantic the USN is putting plan Z to shame
mint quiver
But how they turned it around is really something
Thanks to Land-Lease and strat bombing
If Germans got free pass on Barbarossa then the Soviets would flip
runic ermine
Plan Z would not have allowed the Kriegsmarine to match the RN, because the RN h...
Also the Regia Marnia did extremely well for what it had
mint quiver
Plan Z would not have allowed the Kriegsmarine to match the RN, because the RN h...
I mean it would be like WW1 situation
narrow rover
To be fair even without Germany there's still Japan and Italy to start something but also those two jumped on the chance given to them by the Germans steamrolling Europe
runic ermine
Thanks to Land-Lease and strat bombing
Also the fact that the Soviets learned
mint quiver
Also the fact that the Soviets learned
They really did not have much choices
runic ermine
To be fair even without Germany there's still Japan and Italy to start *somethin...
And the minor Axis whom Germany was happy to throw under the bus if needed
mint quiver
The purge got em fucked over alongside with reorg of the army
runic ermine
The purge got em fucked over alongside with reorg of the army
Also the over promotion of officers
mint quiver
And the minor Axis whom Germany was happy to throw under the bus if needed
It was more that Italians were not ready at all for the war
Their industry was even worse than Japanese one
Their equipment was by most part subpar
but they put a good fight with what they had
runic ermine
It was more that Italians were not ready at all for the war
And the minor Axis even less so. Hence why they relied on Germany and Italy to give them equipment
mint quiver
And the minor Axis even less so. Hence why they relied on Germany and Italy to g...
I mean they had some internally produced designs
but the Axis was starved of resources anyways
runic ermine
but they put a good fight with what they had
Id say that the only minor Axis countries who did poorly were Slovakia, Vichy France and Iraq
runic ermine
I mean they had some internally produced designs
Hungary especially
runic ermine
Romania had IAR
Very good plan in both war thunder and enlisted
mint quiver
Which was pretty substantial for a minor nation
Meanwhile my country got steamrolled by Soviets and Germans
we really pulled a short straw in there
runic ermine
Which was pretty substantial for a minor nation
And doing this with said planes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tidal_Wave
runic ermine
Meanwhile my country got steamrolled by Soviets and Germans
Poland?
narrow rover
And the minor Axis whom Germany was happy to throw under the bus if needed
Europe (+ empire of Japan I guess) kind of lost the plot at WW2 if you think about it
runic ermine
Europe (+ empire of Japan I guess) kind of lost the plot at WW2 if you think abo...
But seriously, the minor axis got blamed for a lot which wasn't always their fault
narrow rover
Really the war should not have happened but...
The great economy crash of the 1920s combined with some spectacularly bad decisions just helped spawn such a destructive conflict
runic ermine
Like Romania at Stalingrad
mint quiver
Really the war should not have happened but...
The great economy crash of the 19...
Weimar republic was a shitshow
narrow rover
I hate Hindenburg
...not the balloon the person
runic ermine
Or Hungary near the end of the war where Germany literally forced them to stay in the war
mint quiver
I hate Hindenburg
...not the balloon the person
It would happen anyways
narrow rover
But seriously, the minor axis got blamed for a lot which wasn't always their fau...
I just shit on Croatia for spawning the Ustasa
runic ermine
Weimar republic was a shitshow
Is the "Weimar World" a term? If not i think I've invented it
runic ermine
I just shit on Croatia for spawning the Ustasa
More comicallly evil than the SS somehow
mint quiver
If you compare USSR and Germany then Germans were like a destructive shitnado an USSR was more of a snake
narrow rover
Also the Baltic countries have a history perception that makes Turkey look like E. Carr
mint quiver
I would say that out of Germany and USSR i hate USSR way more than Germany
Because of how often i meet westerners spouting the USSR propaganda bullshit nowadays
runic ermine
Weimar republic was a shitshow
Political violence on the daily, bigger divide between right and left, radical theories, economic crisis, angry population
narrow rover
If you compare USSR and Germany then Germans were like a destructive shitnado an...
Germany was a schizophrenia patient wielding two shotguns that somehow one shot all the guards and nurses through sheer power of plot armor
Japan was a runaway train whose conductors met every day in the dining car and confirmed yes, the train is indeed out of control and has just slammed into an orphanage
Italy was... pasta
mint quiver
Germany was a schizophrenia patient wielding two shotguns that somehow one shot ...
Italy was "huh what are we doing here? Where is our equipment"
runic ermine
Germany was a schizophrenia patient wielding two shotguns that somehow one shot ...
The Japanese government was basically controlled by the military and had been since the 1930s
mint quiver
Germany was a schizophrenia patient wielding two shotguns that somehow one shot ...
Oh god
im saving your Japan comparision
XDDDDDDDDDD
runic ermine
Italy was "huh what are we doing here? Where is our equipment"
More of a "we gotta work with what we have"
compact glen
I would say that out of Germany and USSR i hate USSR way more than Germany
Yeah, they get ignored just for defeating the Nazis and the "communism good in theory not practice so that must mean the soviets weren't that bad due to that"
narrow rover
The Japanese government was basically controlled by the military and had been si...
Eh, the Japanese sort of elected the insane people into power alongside the army's bullshit
The great depression really made the people hope for some another way out of it
That another way was war... sadly
mint quiver
Eh, the Japanese sort of elected the insane people into power alongside the army...
And it does not help that the way they planned was essentially "Warplan: Tojo hopes and dreams"
they fully expected the Americans to follow their script
compact glen
And it does not help that the way they planned was essentially "Warplan: Tojo ho...
Tojo was one evil mf'er
narrow rover
...yea they sort of stumbled into war in China and hoped just hitting China hard would force them to capitulate
mint quiver
...yea they sort of stumbled into war in China and hoped just hitting China hard...
Then they did the same with US XD
worked as well as in China
And the whole IJN/IJA split
was the goofiest shit ever
narrow rover
Only issue is that the Chinese leader at the time (Chiang) was notoriously stubborn, had zero remorse in getting people to die for him and was also fiercely nationalist
spring briar
Thanks to Land-Lease and strat bombing
Barbarossa was already failing before the strategic bombing started
narrow rover
What do you mean the Japanese has killed another 5 million of our solders and we have to surrender I have another trillion right here
mint quiver
Barbarossa was already failing before the strategic bombing started
The thing with Barbarossa that the strat objective was Baku oil fields
spring briar
ik
and they failed
mint quiver
Stalin did expect Germans to go straight to Caucasus
runic ermine
Only issue is that the Chinese leader at the time (Chiang) was notoriously stubb...
Also Chinese Generals at the time had an even worse doctrine than well... literally anybody else
spring briar
gotta get moscow :)))))))
mint quiver
gotta get moscow :)))))))
I mean i did read that Hitler was very angry for that
because like i said the whole goal was caucasus
narrow rover
Also Chinese Generals at the time had an even worse doctrine than well... litera...
God
Don't get me started on the Chinese army
runic ermine
God
Don't get me started on the Chinese army
- Fitting cuz of the Easy Red 2 China dlc that's coming out soon
- If you thought that the Soviets, Italy, Germany, and Poland had problems China is on a whole other level
narrow rover
Yea
China was between a rock (itself) and a hard place (japan)
They keep getting hit hard when things are just looking up
runic ermine
Yea
China was between a rock (itself) and a hard place (japan)
They keep getting...
Also when Japan invaded, China was weak (hence why Japan did it in the first place)
mint quiver
then it went up in magnitude
Like hell Chang Kai Shrek was a clepto af during the entire ordeal XD
runic ermine
Reminder that they had gone through:
-Revolution that ended the monarchy
-Guy declares that China is an Empire and then dies
-Warlord era
-12 days of a restoration of the monarchy
-Involved in the Russian Civil War
-Got into border clashes with the Soviets
-Civil War with the commies
-And lost Manchuria to Japan
This is all in the span of like not even 20 years btw
narrow rover
There's something with these big countries
HRE, Qing China, The USSR etc
When they fall they fall goddamn HARD
runic ermine
also Opium Wars and etc all the preceeding shit
Like the dude who did this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_China_(1915–1916)
narrow rover
...I sure hope I don't have to add another global hegemon to the list
runic ermine
There's something with these big countries
HRE, Qing China, The USSR etc
When th...
We're still feeling the effects of the USSR. Also I'd add the Russian Empire to that list
mint quiver
I still fucking feel breath of USSR on my back from time to time
mint quiver
they rest in piss
Thankfully
spring briar
eh
mint quiver
Albeit its sad seeing westoids clamoring into their ideas
I see more and more people thinking that Soviet Union was some kind of paradise
on earth
Despite that Soviet economy was basicaly kinda smilar to economy of conquest
There is a saying in Poland
"We given them meat so in return they took our coal"
flint mesa
There's something with these big countries
HRE, Qing China, The USSR etc
When th...
USA in 1929 lol
flint mesa
I will say after the ww1 that fried everyone up and the great depression, chaos is all around the world
mint quiver
I will say after the ww1 that fried everyone up and the great depression, chaos ...
Its true
The WW1 exhausted all the parties involved
But the Great Depression was more because lack of regulatory oversight rather than WW1 itself
Same shit with 2008 crisis
remote monolith
Mind you the immediate years after WWI were marked with rapid economical recoveries for the most part
The US was booming, foreign capital flowed into Germany, and even in Britain and France things were looking decently enough
flint mesa
Roaring Twenties
mint quiver
In long term France got kinda depopulated and concept of war was a no go for the winners of it
flint mesa
depression: BUT
remote monolith
Well yes, France got fucked the most industrially and populations wise
mint quiver
Also the difficulties with reaarmament when Germany started acting sussy
then appeasment
remote monolith
Basically close to its entire industry was ruined when Germany seized them in 1914 since a lot of them were up in northeastern France
mint quiver
etc
flint mesa
they still got colonies lol
mint quiver
I mean you cant blame Chamberlain
remote monolith
By comparison Germany's industry was practically untouched and undamaged which helped in the postwar recovery, not to mention that with the High Seas Fleet and the Army gone state expenses went down a lot
mint quiver
By comparison Germany's industry was practically untouched and undamaged which h...
Well then again
they needed to rebuild both of those from almost nothing
remote monolith
I mean they weren't allowed to until nearly 20 years later
Hence Germany being better off economically than its neighbors
subtle prawn
desert agate
Thanks to Land-Lease and strat bombing
Who was doing the most successful strategic bombing (not the Americans)
Keep in mind the Americans spent the first 2-3 years of the CBO losing thousands of men in obsolete planes for little actual benefit to the war effort
The RAF had a 3 year head start which is why by 1942 they were gearing up for the first 1000 bomber raids, meanwhile the Americans were taking severe losses over Schweinfurt in October 1943 just to mildly damage a ball bearing factory
mint quiver
From what i remember the land-lease and strat bombing was shared between Muricans and Briish
And the scope i wanted to represent is eastern front
and the fact that without allied supplies Soviets would flip the fuck out
subtle prawn
timber linden
Also can Americans defend their country plz
We arent the ones that should be worried
mint quiver
Im not going into politics
But you are doing nothing but mistakes at the dawn of most important periods in this century
desert agate
Pictured: someone that doesn’t watch Perun
Europe already spends as much on a dollar value as the US, current funding increases will eclipse them, there will be issues but all rearmament programs have issues
Just have to ignore Greece and Turkey in all discussions on the topic since their guns are pointed at each other
timber linden
Im not going into politics
Not going into politics but makes political statement before...strange
burnt scarab
I like the story about this whole Crossing of the Rhine Sipher. Even the one about the Remegan Bridge
cyan oriole
Despite your use of a racial slur, you're not wrong about that assessment, howev...
It is honestly a miracle of fate that the Americans managed to squeeze out a victory at Midway
me when I spread misinformation on the internet
The Japanese were pretty much intentionally trying to lose at Midway. They were so confident in their victory, that they hadbelieved it had already happened
of course, luck did play a large factor, but the Americans would still have gotten the first strike no matter what, and likely would have still denied a Japanese strike in the end
cyan oriole
My point from the start is and was that Japan could have and arguably should hav...
from the start, the Japanese performed better than they had any right to, because the Americans, Brits, and their allies were doing everything in their power to make sure they lost
the Phillipines were lost because MacArthur's ego was larger than his comically large pipe, and from there everything went downhill (Prince of Wales and Repulse being thrown away to accomplish nothing helped with that)
narrow rover
Despite your use of a racial slur, you're not wrong about that assessment, howev...
I mean, the US thought they could just get rid of the IJN and Japan will fold over backwards and listen to them
Kinda like what happened in the American-Spanish war
But... Japan was not the Spanish
cyan oriole
I don't think Allied inneficiencies were so dramatic as to lengthen the war by s...
Allied inefficiencies turned a war that should have been over in 1941 in Europe and 1942 in Asia into a drawn out struggle until 1945
the blame for the former is on the French high command, and the latter is the responsibility of the Allied ego and racism to judge Japan as a third rate power inferior to them
narrow rover
the blame for the former is on the French high command, and the latter is the re...
Gonna have to admit the entire war really had no business happening in the first goddamn place
Just get rid of the great depression and the chances of it happening at all goes down significantly
I mean maybe Japan and China throws down regardless but let's be real, did people care
cyan oriole
Wreak of Strasbourg in Toulon after she was scuttled
apparently, there were plans after the war to convert her to a carrier. But all plans of a carrier were dropped due to insufficient funds -- and I doubt that Strasbourg would be been repairable, let alone worth converting
cyan oriole
Can you at least specify exactly what MacArthur did there
MacAthur threw away the entire air force of the Philippines on day 1
his complete mental breakdown on the first day of the invasion, when leadership was needed the most, basically sacrificed the entire Philippines
cyan oriole
If Germans got free pass on Barbarossa then the Soviets would flip
more like thanks to the incompetence of the German war machine
something something horses
not to mention glorious german engineering that breaks down in a field somewhere
cyan oriole
Id say that the only minor Axis countries who did poorly were Slovakia, Vichy Fr...
how to tell someone know history from hoi4 in one sentence
Iraq and Slovakia are footnotes among the Axis powers, and the French was not willing to fight for Germany, only for France
the British fucked it with Oran
narrow rover
Depending on who you ask the Chinese can also be called a minor axis country
They were supported by Germany until Japan complained
cyan oriole
Because of how often i meet westerners spouting the USSR propaganda bullshit now...
very true
at least Wehraboos get laughed and and told they get no bitches
cyan oriole
I mean, the US thought they could just get rid of the IJN and Japan will fold ov...
and vice-versa, Japan thought they could strike the US fleet and the US would come to the negotiating table like the Russians
how wrong they were
cyan oriole
Depending on who you ask the Chinese can also be called a *minor axis* country
T...
Soviets are also an Axis nation by that logic
don't ask what the USSR was doing before the "Great Patriotic War" started
narrow rover
Soviets are also an Axis nation by that logic
Yup
narrow rover
and vice-versa, Japan thought they could strike the US fleet and the US would co...
Japan actually struck very deep into Russian territory before the Tsar got scared and went for peace
cyan oriole
main reason for peace was internal unrest and revolution though
narrow rover
Which the Japanese funded to a certain extent
cyan oriole
the Tsar funded his own overthrow more than any foreign power
narrow rover
Yea
The Russian empire was a disaster
Well, which is pretty much Russia in a nutshell but eh
remote monolith
Allied inefficiencies turned a war that should have been over in 1941 in Europe ...
pretty much this, the French High Command more or less ended up giving Germany a far easier win than the German themselves thought possible
remote monolith
don't you love when the government swings right and left back and forth several times in a decade intermixed with various riots and strikes
narrow rover
Still waiting for someone to pin down a cause for the great depression so that I can blame every big issue on whoever caused that
desert agate
> It is honestly a miracle of fate that the Americans managed to squeeze out a v...
You're making the exact same point I am, you're simply phrasing it differently
Any competently run operation at Midway would have been a victory for the Japanese, and even if all had gone as it did. Fortunately for the Americans, the Japanese were not planning this operation competently
The crippling factors which were almost entirely by chance were Yorktown and Enterprise's planes arriving at almost the exact same time, unintentionally creating a combined strike, the land based aircraft from Midway (Plus Hornets torpedo bombers) creating a constant distraction from Nagumo's effort to rearm his planes, and Dick Best and Wade McClusky attacking Kaga at the same time, resulting in Best splitting off mid-dive to attack Akagi
Removing any one of those factors results in yes, the Japanese having a bloody nose, but also saves at least 1 other carrier, likely Akagi which creates a force capable of meaningfully retaliating against the American carriers which would have shifted the course of the next 6-12 months of the war until the first Essex class carriers arrive in Pearl
desert agate
from the start, the Japanese performed *better* than they had any right to, beca...
It was the British who convinced their allies to invest in Singapore and I will stand by it being a mistake to base the 8th division there
eternal veldt
I think its worth mentioning that the preceding Coral Sea did put Shoukaku out of action, and subsequently the whole 5th cardiv was not ready for the MI operation.
There were also other ships that were used as a decoy for the AL operation, which was also begrudgingly done IIRC to cater to the IJA.
It is relatively easy to just say "lol IJN didn't plan it competently" without considering that there are other factors in play, including the lack of sufficient ships (and planes) for the MI operation, as well as intersservice rivalry, which has been generally agreed as a major hindrance on IJN operations as a whole since its genesis.
Consequently, this is also what played into "Nagumo's dilemma" due to the lacklustre effects of bombing on Midway's facilities.
As for Midway itself, a point has been made before that Hiryuu could have been potentially saved, as she was trailing along Nagara while Nagumo was transferring rather than retreating, putting her within range of US plane strikes.
Doubly unluckily, and to the credit of US Damage control efforts, Hiryuu's double strike by Kobayashi's dive bombers and Tomonaga's torpedo bombers both targetted Yorktown rather than two separate carriers, greatly reducing any chance of a pyrrhic victory.
That said, whatever the case at Midway, Japan was far from guaranteed defeat at that point, and there were multiple opportunities for decisive victories during Operation Watchtower - these were not used effectively either due to risks posed to their irreplaceable ships, and....just shit out of luck, in the case of Eastern Solomons.
runic ermine
how to tell someone know history from hoi4 in one sentence
I haven't played hoi4
runic ermine
Iraq and Slovakia are footnotes among the Axis powers, and the French was not wi...
Vichy collaborated with Germany
Fairly openly despite claiming that they were neutral
fierce sparrow
woeful hull
apparently, there were plans after the war to convert her to a carrier. But all ...
Damm is that so.. But as you said it's most likely not worth it to convert her into a carrier not to mention her life span as a carrier would be short.
vocal coral
and the fact that without allied supplies Soviets would flip the fuck out
Lend Lease can only be valued for the supply of raw materials such as aluminum and copper, as well as trains and vehicles, but to say that the USSR would not have been able to contain the German onslaught is at least strange. After all, it was in the catastrophic 1941 year that there were no supplies at all ...
grave ravine
The RAF had a 3 year head start which is why by 1942 they were gearing up for th...
The American 1943 raids, while extremely bloody, were often still effective in inflicting damage on the German war machine, the cited October 1943 raid is estimated to have caused a 6 week production halt, and the Germans were forced to incur the inefficiencies and costs of distributing production in the aftermath to make it less vulnerable
remote monolith
Lend Lease can only be valued for the supply of raw materials such as aluminum a...
Lend-Lease's main effect was allowing the Soviets to continuously maul the Germans with offensives, yes
grave ravine
The raids in 1943 (and 1944/45) were never as decisive as airpower advocates had hoped, but they were an important part of the allied war on Nazi Germany
remote monolith
the motor vehicles sent through L-L were vital in allowing the Red Army in moving rapidly, without them as glantz opined its likely the Soviets would be forced to recuperate far slower and incur more losses in each offensives, though ultimately victory was leaning into the USSR no matter what
however, Stahel did say that its also likely the USSR would be forced into a forever stalemate without lend-lease
grave ravine
Its noted that part of why the October Schweinfurt raid was so costly was that the Germans redeployed significant numbers of aircraft from the Eastern Front to homeland defense in the aftermath of the August raids
remote monolith
The American 1943 raids, while extremely bloody, were often still effective in i...
adding to this, if I recall among the affected production lines was the StuG III factories at Alkett
afaik it was something of a 9/19th drop
desert agate
The American 1943 raids, while extremely bloody, were often still effective in i...
At the cost of severely depleting 8th Air Force and halting any further deep raids by 8th Air Force for 4 months
There's really not many ways to look at Schweinfurt and conclude that it was not a failure, yes it had some short term impacts on the German war economy but without the capacity for follow on strikes, or to continue applying pressure on the German war economy, it didn't meaningfully impact the German economy
grave ravine
There's really not many ways to look at Schweinfurt and conclude that it was not...
Its impossible to quantify the efficiency losses caused by the distribution of ball bearing production after Schweinfurt, but that doesn't mean they weren't real
desert agate
The Germans simply adapted, dispersed and found foreign suppliers
grave ravine
The 1943 raids were excessively bloody when striking targets beyond the range of escort fighters, but to claim they were ineffective at damaging the German war economy is untrue
desert agate
Obviously it was less efficient, but I think causing a relatively minor loss of efficiency is not necessarily worth the massive losses of manpower and material incurred
grave ravine
Furthermore we have to consider the effects of forcing the Germans to commit significant amounts of men and material to defense of the Reich
remote monolith
I actually disagree with this hit
while the cost is bloody, the Germans would have produced far more without the bombings
desert agate
I never said ineffective, but I do think that the cost was too high for the little damage inflicted
grave ravine
We can see a significant drawdown in Luftwaffe strength on the Eastern Front in late 1943 as a consequence of the Regensburg strikes and the shift in forces to homeland defense
narrow rover
It's unfortunate but a 100% efficient war is kind of like an 100% efficient engine
Aka cannot be done
remote monolith
I don't think so even