history

[runic ermine]

He even said that it took him 11 months

[steel rapids]

No way

[runic ermine]

At the end of the video

[junior trench]

???

??????

?????????

[steel rapids]

Dude don't know op cobra exist

[desert agate]

that is not the issue under contention

the issue is that the entire premise there is wrong

[junior trench]

Cobras opening bombardment was also so successful that killing a General by accident is honestly just a curious footnote

[steel rapids]

The weather was horrible

So yeah

[junior trench]

???

Non sequiturs like it's the only thing you can say

[steel rapids]

Bro the weather was bad also wtf

[junior trench]

What I'd give to make #history an actual club again

[steel rapids]

Oh fuck this

[frozen kestrel]

So, I'm currently working with the map from S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl, and I came across these weird spherical structures. Anyone have any clue what these are?

[hybrid sparrow]

And let you lot have that clique mentality again? Ew no.

[runic ermine]

Dresden bombing and operation cobra. You know what those are?

[chilly flower]

Please direct your attention to this message

[runic ermine]

Thanks

[eternal veldt]

This channel is pretty dead regardless of clique status or not. Probably much to your elation as it means less moderation.

[maiden citrus]

hm, I wonder what some of the sources of cause are

[eternal veldt]

The amount of meaningful discussion has been drained to a new low

So, whatever. Toss another Bismarck question out and there will be someone to flare that discussion up. Guaranteed to work every time.

[mental tapir]

Or another discussion about how the atomic bombings were justified and the Soviet invasion wouldn't have caused Japan to surrender early or something

[eternal veldt]

We've been through that, its mostly going in circles

[maiden citrus]

the soviets swimming to japan with menacing faces is a sight to think about

[runic ermine]

And the whole Hokkaido thing

[manic latch]

"Even with American ships lent to the Soviets during Project Hula, the Soviet Navy did not have enough transport space to carry both divisions from Sakhalin in one lift and so it planned to make two trips"

So ye either America will decide to aid by giving more ships

Or they will nuke Japan

Nuking Japan benefits them more

Thus logical choice

[runic ermine]

Agreed

Nuking Japan would also ironically save lives

[manic latch]

That's kinda hindsight

If Japan refused to surrender

Either all nukes would be used moment they are build

[maiden citrus]

not really hindsight considering estimations

[manic latch]

They knew Emperor may accept surrender if they nuke enough?

[runic ermine]

Also the order of battle was partially completed

[eternal veldt]

Or its not a simple mutual exclusive

And that the nukings are a warning of the things to come

[manic latch]

Well ye

It was a warning

That you may choose to ignore

[eternal veldt]

Japan begrudgingly yielded, and now the benefits can be seen

[manic latch]

Yeah they didn't trial Emperor for warcrimes

To not create chaos etc

[eternal veldt]

Because if they did, Downfall is guaranteed

[manic latch]

Yeah I guess

[eternal veldt]

Au contraire, this solution generates the current modern political issues we have

[maiden citrus]

should have tried to find a way

[eternal veldt]

Including the denial of Nanking and the likes

[maiden citrus]

cuz yeah japan's thoughts on the war are pretty

bad

[eternal veldt]

"The lesser evil" viewed in hindsight

[autumn sorrel]

All Mcunter fault

[runic ermine]

Yeah

[remote monolith]

while admittedly the server and the channel does focus in WWII stuff, problem is most general topics about that time period has been talked to death and most people aren't interested in more technical or esoteric stuff so, no shit activity is low low low

[eternal veldt]

I mean, there is no need for discussion when all are in near full agreement.

[runic ermine]

And more modern stuff is controversial

[remote monolith]

exactly! Most people here already agreed on the general fact of things and any new people who comes in either:

1. reach the same conclusion
2. disagree amicably and don't brought it up again
3. run around in circles until they leave out of their own volition because nobody else agrees

[eternal veldt]

It's the same across other AL servers - and I frankly don't want us to dwelve into modern topics.

[remote monolith]

thankfully premodern stuff aren't controversial, and by premodern I mean prehistoric, and by prehistoric I mean

dinosawz

https://www.sci.news/paleontology/dinosaur-endothermy-12940.html#google_vignette

[runic ermine]

True

[maiden citrus]

awe yis time for more dino news, my favorite of this channel anymore (since you tend to post them here)

[eternal veldt]

I'd comment, but virtually zero knowledge on the pre-historic front

[obtuse palm]

Unless there are a bunch of books somewhere with new information ig

[remote monolith]

yeah unless there's some massive new shake up I doubt there's gonna be any long WW2 discussion for a while

[remote monolith]

yeah this is one of the reasons why activity is low anyway cause we all specialize on different things and like, that's totally okay! But it means most people is limited to simply posting what they like, maybe talk about it a bit with someone else and that would be it

[autumn sorrel]

So, a cold war question, what was US and NATO reaction to the reveal of MiG-23, before the combat report and technical data come in?

[nimble fiber]

what is the history behind this torp

why 3+2

why not just 5 torps like other nations

why not be symmetrical
and just 3+3 to flex on those 5 torps one

[frozen kestrel]

[ivory ridge]

a quintuple wing launcher on a DD sounds hard

[spring briar]

the Mogador class destroyers had a triple and a double torpedo launcher on both wings of the ship

[nimble fiber]

I see
the in game image make me assume they just somewhat duct tape 3+2 together

nice model btw

[spring briar]

not mine

[runic ermine]

That's pretty cool

[manic latch]

Bruh they really made 138mm ur

[spring briar]

yeah

[manic latch]

Should have been the 127mms

[spring briar]

it's literally the twin version of the gold 138.6

[manic latch]

Of Colbert

[spring briar]

that's maybe for the future

[manic latch]

Soviet UR gun options hmm

There is none unless they go for 50s

Stalingrad guns, Project 66's 220mm/65 if they wish, Project 84's 180mm DP if they wish

Can mess around with Project 24's 406mm and 457mm/55

Or go with the flow and pick Neustra/Kotlin class's 130mm DP

[spring briar]

180mm from kavkaz

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

no?

[tawny lava]

I would assume one of the lauchers was twin due to space/storage reasons?

[ivory ridge]

they made the 240 gold so dont expect much lol

[manic latch]

The class before her, Le Fantasque class, had 3x3 550mm launchers, but last 3 had worse angles

While twin gives better angle

[tawny lava]

I see

Makes sense

[manic latch]

Tho it was an old design

[tawny lava]

Actually, i keep hearing that the mogador was kind of crap, why exactly is that?

[ivory ridge]

we still dont have the CRs torps ingame

[manic latch]

She has to slow down to fire accurately

So her max speed is useless in fight if she wants to fight

[tawny lava]

How much did she have to slow down?

[spring briar]

Great seaboat
Very fast
but her guns (the 138.6mm twins) often jammed because of their complexity
and the ship did not really have enough electrical power to run everything

[manic latch]

So like

Turret traverse was bad

Thus need to slow down

If elevated too much, her reloading would suffer badly

"Theoretically the guns could be loaded at any angle, but the power rammer was so weak that it could not ram shells at angles above 10°. This problem, coupled with the "poor quality of manufacture of the guns, the unsatisfactory profile of the breech, resulted in a firing cycle of only 3-4 rounds per minute during the early trials with jams and failures frequent", rather than the planned 10 rounds per minute. A further problem was that there only two loaders assigned to the gun crew; they tired quickly during prolonged firing"

That's why I'm surprised this gun is UR

It was a failure and France wanted to replace it with 130mm DP

[spring briar]

your sarcasm is palpable

[manic latch]

Chief it has reloading problems and underpowered motors for traverse and elevation

[subtle prawn]

In service Mogador and Volta proved to be excellent sea-boats, with a robust hull that coped well with even severe weather in the stormy waters of the North Atlantic. They were easily able to sustain 35 knots in sea state 4, and 40 knots with a 200-metre swell. Pitch was moderate, although like earlier contre-torpilleurs they were heavy in the bow when the forward fuel tanks were full. Despite the increase in topweight, stability in the undamaged condition was adequate, and the moderate 7-second roll made them steady gunnery platforms. Heel was very slight even under full rudder, in part due to the 43-metre bilge keels: only 7–8 degrees at 43 knots. However, their excessive turning circle made manoeuvres in formation difficult.

The ships were undoubtedly fast, and the criticisms made concerning the lack of flexibility of the machinery and, in particular, the time taken to raise steam, were not borne out by experience in combat: at Mers el-Kebir, Volta worked up to 40 knots in four and a half minutes without any problems. However, the resistance of the materials used to manufacture the propellers was insufficient to cope with the high speeds demanded of the ships, due largely to the backwardness of French metallurgy. During their acceptance trials both ships experienced severe erosion of the propellers due to cavitation, with cavities up to 15mm deep. The propellers of these and earlier contre-torpilleurs – and also the fast cruiser Emile Bertin – had to be redesigned and replaced regularly in the years preceding the Second World War.

[spring briar]

Volta eventually had her mount upgraded which helped a lot

[subtle prawn]

The problems with the main armament have been described in detail. They were all the more serious because the highly automated 138.6mm twin mountings were the primary raison d’être of these ships. Mogador and Volta, magnificent though they were, were evidence of just how far the French had strayed from the principles of robustness and reliability that were the cornerstone of the Note sur les destroyers of 1919 (see Introduction). The contre-torpilleur as a type was becoming a victim of the traditional French vice of constant incremental improvements, all of which pushed the state of the technology to its limits. In theory the new pseudo-turrets, allied to an elaborate system of director fire control with RPC, should have delivered a witheringly accurate hail of fire. In practice, the guns were subject to constant jams and the electrical power generating systems, feeding a ‘destroyer’-type 115-Volt circuit, would have been unable to cope with the demands of RPC even if a functioning system had been developed.

[spring briar]

let's assume this is the actual UR gun

; )

[manic latch]

https://azurlane.koumakan.jp/wiki/Twin_135mm_(Model_1938)

[tawny lava]

Rip

[subtle prawn]

The accommodation problems outlined above were again a result of trying to pack the capabilities of a cruiser into a large destroyer. The main reason Mogador and Volta – and their immediate predecessors of the Le Fantasque class – were unable to accommodate their designed complements was the substantial hull volume given over to reception and dining facilities for the senior officers. The admiral’s apartments alone accounted for 42m2 of deck area, and the cabins and bathrooms for the other three senior officers (Chief of Staff, CO and First Officer) for a further 52m2. This does not take into account the additional cabins required for the junior officers on the flag staff, nor the practice of providing separate galleys for senior and junior officers and for 1st class and 2nd class petty officers. Given that the standard space allocations for junior ranks were about 2m2 for a seaman and just under 3m2 for a petty officer 2nd class, it is clear that the accommodation problems of the ships could have been resolved with a more judicious – and equitable – allocation of the available space.16

The rationale for flag accommodation is unclear given the original North Atlantic scouting mission, with each of the ships being assigned as consort to one of the fast battleships, which would presumably have accommodated the admiral commanding the force and his staff. Both Mogador and Volta served as flagship of the ‘light squadrons’ in the Atlantic and the Mediterranean, but never at the same time.17

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/look-up-scared-willem-dafoe-gif-17761333

[tawny lava]

They did look excellent tbf

[spring briar]

bro is dumping the entire evaluation from Jordan's book

[subtle prawn]

I'm surprised you recognized that at first glance

[manic latch]

Richel
Info on French ships in English

[spring briar]

I'm literally reading my own copy rn

[spring briar]

I have French sources

english is just easier since

well

we all speak english here

and Jordan says it well enough

[tawny lava]

At times i find reading english souces easier than my native italian sources

[manic latch]

Historical quote ngl

Alsace be Unreachable dream

[spring briar]

The Mogadors are absolutely UR material
Regardless of any misfortunate choices Manjuu has made in the past

[subtle prawn]

So yeah, a lot of Mogador's issues came with trying to make a destroyer have cruiser capabilities

[spring briar]

there's a reason the Le Hardis were just better in service

given
what little service they did have

[tawny lava]

On the topic of frech destroyers

What could have been a better cuoice for the soldati/oriani class in the new WoWs tech tree?

Aside from just, not having another tier 6 at all

[spring briar]

Le Hardi prelim

with 2x2 130mm guns

easy T6

[tawny lava]

I'd have taken a paper design over just a captured ship

[spring briar]

same

but hey

let me get my french torpilleur tech tree proposal from wows

[tawny lava]

Imagine if the soviet t6 bb was just novorossiysk

[tawny lava]

Or the t5 arkhangelsk

[spring briar]

so yeah

Le Hardi prelim

[tawny lava]

Sounds about right

When they drop I'm skipping straight to le hardi

Not even bothering with the stolen soldati

[spring briar]

Le Hardi and Cassard for me

real steel ships

[tawny lava]

Amen

I don't even consider keeping paper ships usually

[spring briar]

@manic latch radar range finder 152mm triple?

[tawny lava]

Unless they were half built ships, soyuz, mackensen and the like

[manic latch]

If they are sexy I get it nonetheless

[tawny lava]

That too is also true

[manic latch]

Wut

Chapayev/Sverdlov's gun has a radar dome on their heads

But don't know how they work

[spring briar]

with radar

[tawny lava]

Actually, I'd say the R class could fit at tier 5

[spring briar]

uh

Tier 6

4x2 15" guns at T5 is a bit too strong imo

[tawny lava]

They could give them a slow reload, or old shells like mutsu

They'd be basically worse QEs, i feel like they could make it work

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1115213447727161404/1224867856722821160/lava.gif

[spring briar]

[ivory ridge]

they couldve fixed their "misfortunate choice in the past" last year but they decided to double down instead

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

I just wanted Alsace

They gave me 3 Prinz Eugens

I will put her in torture room dorm

[spring briar]

Krem I got half the US Navy

[steel rapids]

[spring briar]

Need this model

[autumn sorrel]

I got Richie

[autumn sorrel]

Sometime, I do wonder, why not just say fuck it and make Mogador CL instead of keeping her a heavy destroyer?

[spring briar]

because

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, I understand the logic of packing as much punch as possible into a small hull but in engineering, you will reach a point where the design cannot match the req while being a pre-determine package, you have to either compromise or expand the design.

[spring briar]

or
remove unnecessary features

and work from there

if you just remove all the staff facilities from Mogador, you already get a bunch of room to put in generators

then simplifying the turret would be my next step

[subtle prawn]

Some of the Le Fantasque-class that were in service with the Free French were actually reclassed as CLs

[spring briar]

indeed

but this was for logistical reasons

since CL's would get priority in refit over destroyers

[subtle prawn]

If the Free French did have Mogadors, I'm confident they would have done the same with them

[spring briar]

the Fantasques also had an issue with their mounts and hoists

but they just removed the complicated middle "waiting room" and this simplified the turret

and meant it would actually work reliably

[chilly osprey]

Damn, I don't think I have any of the images from my MN DD tech tree proposal

[spring briar]

not sure how this would translate to the Mogadors

[chilly osprey]

Just a word document

[spring briar]

I just kept it to the design/class name

never gonna understand the italian DD at tier 6 in the torpilleur tech tree

or the not-CMdO at tier 8

of the Italian DD tree

[chilly osprey]

Bear in mind, this was from 2017, when the game was... different.

Basically went;

Tier II: Bisson
Tier III: Aventurier
Tier IV: Projet 1920 (2,063 tons, 35.5 knots, 5x1 100/45, 2x3 550mm TT w/19D)

At tier V it split into a CT line and TdE;

Torpilleur d'escadre:

Tier V: Bourrasque
Tier VI: L'Adroit
Tier VII: Projet 1932
Tier VIII: Le Hardi

This then blended back into the CT line, so you can research Le Fantasque from Le Hardi

Contre-torpilleur:

Tier V: Jaguar
Tier VI: Guépard
Tier VII: Aigle
Tier VIII: Vaquelin
Tier IX: Le Fantasque
Tier X: Mogador

The CT line was meant to have poor torpedo performance, and stealth in favor of high speed, high HP, and better gun power, to bully enemy destroyers and weaker cruisers, while the TdE line was supposed to have higher stealth and better torpedo performance, in exchange for a lower HP pool, worse speed, and meh gun performance (at least, until you got to Le Hardi).

[spring briar]

Le Hardi should always have good gun performance

[chilly osprey]

Yeah with her and the other high tier ships I handwaved away a lot of the gun issues

[spring briar]

but tbh I mostly put my Le Hardi at T7 because of Shiki insisting

[chilly osprey]

Just because at this point WG had already done this with the Russian DDs, where all their gun mounts tended to be taken as working flawlessly

Oh, man, also back when you actually could determine AA dps and range based on the gun mounts used and how many were mounted.

[spring briar]

but thinking about it
Le Hardi could absolutely be T8

[chilly osprey]

As opposed to "fuck you, whatever we feel like"

[grave ravine]

If the quality of the weapon was what decided rarity, a lot of things would be different

[manic latch]

Not just quality

As said mount was bad too

[spring briar]

Krem

[chilly osprey]

Lmao, peak 2017 commentary

I think you can guess how this one plays.
It’s probably one of the most fun ships you’ll find in the game, quite capable of murdering the crap out of enemy destroyers, and dumping hilarious amounts of damage into enemy cruisers at close range. We’re talking well over 200k broadside AP dpm, over 170k HE dpm. 8 fires per minute, without any flags or skills. I mean, sure, your AA sucks… but it’s a destroyer. Unless you’re a Benson or Mahan in ranked, or an Akizuki, you should keep that ‘p’ key active at all times. Unless you want to be spotted? Then again, given your guns should be blazing like crazy for most of the match, who cares I guess? You’ll be spotted anyways.```

[spring briar]

you're just complaining for the sake of it

[manic latch]

I wanted UR guns too

[spring briar]

UR Kron gun?

instead of it being SSR

[manic latch]

Nah

Soyuz gun

[chilly osprey]

Soyuz should be UR, because none ever went to sea

:p

[manic latch]

She is UR tho

As I always knew

[chilly osprey]

I don't blame this game, you can't blame me for knowing nothing about it lol

[manic latch]

Don't blame AL

[chilly osprey]

[spring briar]

as the artist for Soyuz' shells

I'm not sure

[manic latch]

Shells

Not guns

I can equip her with White or Super Heavy shell

So that ain't problem

Actually an UR shell would be welcome

I'm bored of always using the two

At least British has the new 15 inch shell

[grave ravine]

Speaking of shells and equipment rarity, that the Type 1 is the same rarity as SHS is so silly

[spring briar]

that's what does the damage : )))))

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1792950219992441268

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1982, HMS Ardent was struck by several bombs dropped by Argentine aircraft during the Falklands War. The ship sank the next morning with 22 sailors killed. It was the third Royal Navy ship named Ardent to be lost to enemy action in the 20th Century.

Twitter · May 21, 2024, 4:06 PM

[ornate wind]

Why does the Colorado retrofit not sport the 5”/38 in twin mounts?

[spring briar]

because Colorado was refitted with singles

West Virginia got refitted with twins

[manic latch]

@shrewd pecan @tough quail Abrams with Kontakt-1 in all it's glory

[shrewd pecan]

saw it already

[tough quail]

we did it reddit

[spring briar]

yes

[ivory ridge]

the funny

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgA61GxzAP4

[manic latch]

I can see it

[runic ermine]

I think a comedy series on the Austro-Hungarian army should be made

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Bend

How to ruin New York

"Big Bend's upside down U-shape was conceived as an attempt to circumvent zoning regulations restricting skyscraper height in Manhattan, and also as a response to the proliferation of luxury supertall skyscrapers in the area"

[glass trail]

this is like that tower in lego city series

the one with the two rich people who tried to have the highest tower but then they collapsed and connected in the middle

[zenith flame]

Plane won’t hit it either

[glass trail]

i found it

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1793092077036937462

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

An extremely rare WWI naval codebook discovered in a charity shop has been purchased by the National Museum of the Royal Navy. The lead-lined book of confidential signals, which should have been destroyed a century ago, was found in a box of donations at an Oxfam shop in Bath.

Twitter · May 22, 2024, 1:30 AM

[runic ermine]

What a find

[wintry moat]

That is so cool

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srm4Uz4awy0

[willow jungle]

Schwerer Panzerspähwagen 7.5 cm Sonderkraftfahrzeug 234/4 Panzerabwehrkanonewagen

Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen IV

Selbstfahrlafette für 15 cm schwere Panzerhaubitze 18/1 auf Geschützwagen III/IV

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPVxqF01I4Y

[steel rapids]

Thank you for saying the correct name of German vehicles I appreciate it

[willow jungle]

I was tempted not too. Their hard to pronounce lol.

[steel rapids]

You try to

Lol

You did it

[runic ermine]

Fun fact. This flag was introduced as a flag for private use at the outbreak of ww1 and was ment to become the official flag of the Russian Empire after the war

[manic latch]

Never liked Tricolor flags

Not original

Wales flag best

[runic ermine]

How about this one?

[manic latch]

Ugly

[frozen kestrel]

I'll be honest, that's just two country's flags in a trench coat

[runic ermine]

It's peak flag desgin

So good that people thought it was the official flag

[steel rapids]

The hardest to remember flag

[runic ermine]

It's actually easy

Austria and Hungary

[steel rapids]

No its not you have to draw alot

[runic ermine]

True

[spring briar]

tricolors are great

[tawny lava]

Yup

[runic ermine]

I just ment that the idea is easy to remember

One side is austria and the other side is hungary

[steel rapids]

Hm its not for me lol

[steel rapids]

Yes but it's not like you take two country's flag combine and create a flag this one is literally add on more details

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTusL__r_nU

[hexed vale]

Russians put a giga 305mm recoilless rifle on a destroyer

[spring briar]

yeah

destroyer Engels

[hexed vale]

It's definitely an interesting concept, curious if it had any validity

[ivory ridge]

it didnt

im pretty sure the guy who made this was incarcerated and/or shot

He was sentenced and started work in Gulag. Got released for designing recoilless rifles in here. He made a lot of projects. All of them were shit. He got sentenced for the second time, this time got a firing squad.

[runic ermine]

I was about to say, a big cannon that's much longer than it's platform is wide isn't exactly very stable

Furthermore imagine how much of a pain it was to load

[hearty dune]

is ww1 or ww2 more interesting?

[tawny lava]

Depends on what you find intersting

[rapid junco]

I sometimes think WWII seems to be somewhat overrated compared to WWI

[steel rapids]

Yes because ww2 is being put as the deadliest conflict in history

[tawny lava]

Larger, longer, deadlier, more tech, evil dictators, more recent, makes sense it's more remembered

But again, both are interesting for different reasons

[steel rapids]

Yes

[upper oar]

Does anyone happen to know the the numbers of shells warspite fired during her service in WW2 and what the ratio of types of shells were?

[desert agate]

well i think its easy to say that the majority were training shells

[upper oar]

Apologies I meant in combat

[eternal veldt]

You would need to check the logs of Warspite.

For example, at Matapan:

At 2228 hours with ZARA and FIUME now on the port side of the battle fleet, FORMIDABLE hauled out of line to starboard and GREYHOUND illuminated FIUME with her searchlight and the battle fleet opened fire at 2900 yards with 15in broadsides on FIUME and ZARA. WARSPITE also fired two salvos at HAVOCK who was not showing fighting lights, fortunately these missed. In the action WARSPITE fired 40 rounds of 15in AP and 44 rounds of 6in HE.

https://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-01BB-Warspite.htm

On July 7th 1944 at Normandy, another example:

At the end of the second day she had carried out 20 shoots and fired 334 x 15in shells, 181 rounds of HE and 133 rounds of AP.

[upper oar]

Is there a website with a compilation of all her logs?

[eternal veldt]

I linked it already.

[upper oar]

Ty!

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1793458800680214574

[subtle prawn]

https://www.navy.mil/Press-Office/Press-Releases/display-pressreleases/Article/3784769/secnav-del-toro-names-two-future-guided-missile-destroyers-ddg-143-and-ddg-144/

[autumn sorrel]

That’s Stalin for you, you don’t get fired for doing a shit job, you get shot

[obtuse palm]

So you get "fired" instead of getting fired, ok

[tawny lava]

You get fired on instead of fired

[manic latch]

Gawd if I were on Stalin's position

Think I would make a cool ass navy but

Resources they would take over tanks and planes would likely make things significantly worse for ww2 tho

Now that you think of it

For France and Soviets, Navy was most useless thing to focus on given ww2 context

It didn't save the French

Neither it would for Soviets if they had American sized navy

Have cool ass Hind @tough quail

[runic ermine]

He tired to do that but somebody had to tell him that 15 battleships are impractical

[eternal veldt]

There is defence for a French navy, since they do posess a significant amount of oversea territories and colonies

The problem is that the Ardennes gap in the Maginot Line was not complete because of obsolete thinking that the fucking Germans are still using horse drawn artillery

I keep forgetting the answer if the budget allocated to one Dunkek would help finish the job and actually make the gap less exploitable

But at the end of the day, fuck G*melin

[eternal veldt]

And honestly, when ships like Doitzland start appearing with the exact idea of wrecking your commerce, fwiw, the capitals are justified

[chilly osprey]

Really, France did most of the right things in preparing for WWII, as they expected it to be fought.

Save for the Air Force's obsessions with bombers and the failure to mobilize their aviation industry until it was too late

And tbh the whole thing with the Ardennes would have been a lot less of an issue if not for the Belgians

[tawny lava]

The problem was the fact that ww2 was simply not the kind of war france prepared for

Two decades of political instability certainly didn't help either

[steel rapids]

Also they underestimate

Their enemy

[runic ermine]

Which as shown in modern times is still a bad thing to do

[steel rapids]

Yes

[runic ermine]

You know what I'm referring to right?

[steel rapids]

Lets not talk about that

[runic ermine]

Agreed

[steel rapids]

[spring briar]

Ok but back this up with facts so it doesn’t just look like a bingo answer

[steel rapids]

Lets just stop the Germans in Belgium just like ww1, also the Ardennes is too small no way German would blitz through it is what they thought

[remote monolith]

I mean, stopping them in Belgium WAS the best and most logical course of action considering the Wehrmacht high command was also considering to push through Belgium

only Manstein objected and push for an Ardennes thrust, which would have been stopped had the Allied command didn't dismiss recon pictures of a ginormous tank colum going through the woods

[steel rapids]

So that's underestimate

You have to trust intel

[remote monolith]

intel failures happen all the time, and its not exclusive to the Allies

[steel rapids]

D day the Germans were thought the allies would land somewhere else

Instead of Normandy

[remote monolith]

the Germans, under Manstein no less, completely failed to see Bagration massing under their noses until it hit him like an oversized truck, US forces failed catastrophically in Savo Island, stuff like that

instead of ascribing French defeat to outdated doctrines or the common soldiers the fault lies in the high command's failure to react accordingly to their intel

[remote monolith]

I mean in the Germans defense Calais IS the perfect place to land in, and the Allies did realize they eventually have to capture real port facilities to continue advancing into Europe, they unfortunately didn't expect the Allies to have developed artificial harbors to allow rapid initial advances inland to capture cities and port facilities

[steel rapids]

They also do fake attacks also

[remote monolith]

yes, Patton's ghost division

put it simply German preparations despite inadequacies weren't made by idiots and they did try to cover all logical possibilities, but lack of resources and the Allies being even more competent+bringing to bear unexpected factors that the Germans weren't ready for

[steel rapids]

Adolf was tricked badly by the allies lol

He wasn't even informed about the invasion by his general because he was sleeping

[tawny lava]

The wonders of dictatorial regimes

[steel rapids]

Adolf, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao

There's more

[tawny lava]

With every one a large motive of their downfall always ends up being the yes-men they surrounded themselves with

Who would rather tell him things that please him or don't enrage him, rather than the realities of the situation

Eventually becoming horrendously out of touch

[autumn sorrel]

In case of Pol Pot, Vietnam fuck up

[steel rapids]

Vietnam blitz right through Cambodia

[autumn sorrel]

We already blitz through them... in Jan of 1978, but fall back due to fail the political objective of forcing Pol Pot to the negotiation. Only after Ba Chuc and months of raid did the Politburo get their head out of their ass and authorize a full blown invasion to change regime, Vietnam could have capture Pol Pot early but after that offensive, he know that he need to get his ass out of Nhom Penh as fast as possible instead of tally around.

[steel rapids]

But we have to stay there for so long because the Pol pot's remains is still fighting

[autumn sorrel]

You might want to look up who support Khmer Rogue after 1979

[steel rapids]

Pffft

[autumn sorrel]

Without those help, Khmer Rogue would have been wipe out long time ago

And shame on UN for supporting Khmer Rogue

[steel rapids]

China then decide to double team us to help Kmer

Just bruh

[steel rapids]

Yup they don't even look at the evidence we gave them about the Pol pot's crimes

[upper oar]

And even further in the German’s defence tactically I think if they had landed exactly where they had thought it just would’ve been subject to a substantially longer naval bombardment period thinking weeks along with potentially more paratrooper drops to cause more chaos

[humble jewel]

Have Nagato and her crew

[fierce sparrow]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/368244534578118658/1086722679190593758/BurningMurmory.gif

Hind... with a COFFIN...

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/kachiusa1975/status/1793567238760636828

[autumn sorrel]

Da Nang, prob some 1975 forgotten PAVN cache, PAVN did plan for siege before ARVN command completely disintegrate and Da Nang surrendered.

[manic latch]

@shrewd pecan @tough quail Cope Cage Abrams is real!

[tawny lava]

[autumn sorrel]

Finally

[shrewd pecan]

era on lfp alongside TUSK goes insane

beyond that cope cage/cage armor for the turret makes sense

considering the threat environment still primarily being drones

🤞 that we get a new up armor package taking lessons the blues and yellows are learning (That and we send them more so they can actually absorb losses)

[visual rover]

24 May 2024 The Royal Netherlands Navy Air-Defence and Command Frigate:
“HNLMS Tromp F-803” she have visit in Hai Phong, Vietnam

[hushed rune]

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/23/asia/wwii-submarine-wreck-uss-harder-found-philippines-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

[signal wave]

Is that ducktape holding it together????

[tough quail]

finally a new war thunder premium idea

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIXUR-nXyT4

[steel rapids]

You gotta be fucking kidding me

[steel rapids]

God damn it I told you to put that in storage not in your brothers house soldier

[rapid junco]

@manic latch Parishkaya Kommune

[manic latch]

Aye

Defending Sevastopol

[tawny lava]

Post refit Ganguts are a sight to behold

[manic latch]

Fuso beta

[tawny lava]

Kinda

Agincourt feels closer to that to me because of the twin turrets, but 12 guns are 12 guns

I suppose that makes dante alighieri fuso alpha

[manic latch]

[tawny lava]

Hot

[runic ermine]

Sevastopol

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1794035617216463109

[humble jewel]

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1794200263051641148

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1941, HMS Hood exploded and sank after being hit by a salvo fired by the the Bismarck from 9 miles away. Only three sailors from Hood's crew of 1418 survived. This photo taken from the Prinz Eugen shows Hood exploding in the distance with HMS Prince of Wales nearby.

Twitter · May 25, 2024, 2:54 AM

[steel rapids]

Stop reminding me it's sad

[supple sandal]

Well look like not on eternal patrol anymore

[supple sandal]

Weird I don't see the news

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ1LLLEFUPU&ab_channel=AustralianMilitaryAviationHistory

[carmine remnant]

Silly question for yall that know this kind of stuff; does anyone know the kind of coat/suit/jacket/whatever it is that Mainz wears? I was told to ask here

[autumn sorrel]

You mean, which uniform inspired her attire?

[carmine remnant]

That too ig. Its a cool look and i just wanna know what inspired it or if it had a specific name or something

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1794425947317235842

https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce/status/1794386571661283675
https://twitter.com/RoyalAirForce/status/1794420790722503060

Royal Air Force (@RoyalAirForce) on X

Twitter · May 25, 2024, 3:14 PM

Royal Air Force (@RoyalAirForce) on X

Twitter · May 25, 2024, 5:30 PM

[runic ermine]

Rip

[tawny lava]

Such a shame

Rest in peace

[steel rapids]

Damn

[lime scarab]

New news about the constellation frigate, specifically the 5 and 6 ships https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/s/2Bci3hZ4DM

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/AirCrash_/status/1794384467080937649

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1794548942056698176

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1953, Navy anti-aircraft gunners accidentally downed a U.S. Air Force T-6G Texan when the trainer plane flew into the restricted airspace of the naval proving grounds during a test firing of 5-inch guns. The pilot managed to land the damaged Texan at a neaby airfield.

Twitter · May 26, 2024, 1:59 AM

[frozen yoke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP3DXKmQhBY Worlds newest Standard gauge steam locomotive was finished and was debut to the world yesterday/today... introducing GWR 6880, betton grange, built 2024...

unfortunately all the original GWR grange class were scrapped, it took a group of men and women 20 years to build one, luckily the GWR had standardisation so they could use parts of scrapped engines in this

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1794496815720792513

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD 1982, HMS Coventry was sunk by Argentine aircraft. A total of 6 British ships were lost during the Falklands War. Reagan had secretly arranged for USS Iwo Jima to be transferred to the Royal Navy if either of the British carriers were sunk:
https://t.co/VS64jslKOb

Twitter · May 25, 2024, 10:32 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1794774412320760000

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 2012, thousands of spectators watched as USS Iowa passed under the Golden Gate Bridge and into the Pacific on her final voyage. The venerable battleship was towed from the San Francisco Bay to the Port of Los Angeles where she became a floating museum.

Twitter · May 26, 2024, 4:55 PM

[chilly osprey]

Ah, everyone running from the poor Santi

[ivory ridge]

[spring briar]

Aww

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1794825071040852178

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD 1941, U.S. Navy pilot ENS “Tuck” Smith spotted the Bismarck and then transmitted the German battleship's coordinates. The U.S. was officially neutral at the time but Smith was secretly training RAF pilots to fly PBY Catalina seaplanes. The next day would be Bismarck's last.

Twitter · May 26, 2024, 8:16 PM

[maiden citrus]

[obtuse palm]

What did she do?

[steel rapids]

Dammit

[junior jacinth]

This shit rock

[alpine onyx]

Probably had an opened can of surströmming on board

[supple sandal]

The Abrams shed tank is real

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1795122329900528090

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1942, Doris Miller was presented with the Navy Cross by ADM Chester Nimitz for his heroic actions during the attack on Pearl Harbor. Miller was later killed during the Battle of Makin in 1943. The fourth Gerald R. Ford-class aircraft carrier will be named in his honor.

Twitter · May 27, 2024, 3:58 PM

[manic latch]

@shrewd pecan @tough quail Cope Cage Abrams Vol 2 is real!

[tawny lava]

This would have been so cursed five years ago

it still is now tbh

[shrewd pecan]

Probably nice for the commander when it rains

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1795212313076662423

[humble jewel]

Damn, that looks good

[runic ermine]

Song still slaps

[wintry moat]

Extremely

I learned it back in 9th

[fierce sparrow]

https://fxtwitter.com/ChungTzuW/status/1795207217781551576?t=fpulKKbYlwlMPHwVzF8Bmw&s=19

[shrewd pecan]

warno trauma of the T-80UD swarms

[manic latch]

Sez the F-15E user

[autumn sorrel]

Same tank?

[manic latch]

Nope

Since this is worse modification

[lime scarab]

Hopefully they come out looking like that like the concept art

[humble jewel]

It probably will.. or something similar to it

there might be some upgrades

[lime scarab]

If the USA navy takes its time developing it and working out the difficulties then it would be a great ship and hopefully not disastrous like the CLS ships were

[humble jewel]

True

I mean, they probably should since it replaces not only the frigates, but also the CLS

[lime scarab]

The USA hasn’t had a frigates since 1970s I believe but yes they are going to replace the CLS and the navy wants to sale them to foreign navies

@naive crag you want to add to this discussion of the ClS by the way since you post a gif of a petting a CLS?

[naive crag]

The hate for the Independence-class is overblown is all.

The government failed it more than the ship itself did.

[lime scarab]

May I ask how the independence class failure is over blown?

And how did the government failed at constructing the ship?

[ivory ridge]

why are you calling them CLS

[manic latch]

Wait

He was talking about LCS?

Wtf is Cls

[ivory ridge]

yeah lol

[manic latch]

[naive crag]

Waterking tries

[grave ravine]

@lime scarab @humble jewel Constellation is not a replacement for LCS

[manic latch]

Ye she is for jobs too expensive to use Burke

[grave ravine]

Constellation is meant to bulk up general purpose warship counts with something a bit cheaper than a DDG

[naive crag]

The Independences' overblown problem was having cracks appear in a couple frames (being an aluminum trimaran).
It limited their speed in sea states that US littoral waters don't see often anyway.

US gov't failed because they tried to make it a modular ship, then cut the funding on most of its packages, and cancelled one. Plus forcing it into a frigate role made all the issues more apparent

[humble jewel]

Wait.. it was LCS all along? My brain ain't working rn

[naive crag]

I won't defend the Freedom-class

[grave ravine]

The later Freedoms got the combining gear fixed while under construction, and the ones in service are getting the fix

[manic latch]

I don't like LCS because they are small

And focused on cheapness

[grave ravine]

I wouldn't exactly blame the govt for the issues with LCS, the program was fundamentally flawed in a number of ways

[humble jewel]

Ngl, ugly ahh design too

[grave ravine]

The speed requirements were antithetical to most of the envisioned roles, and caused significant engineering problems and cost growth

[naive crag]

I still feel splitting a project into two classes with being "as multirole as possible" set them both up for failure

[grave ravine]

The envisioned crew setup has all the worst elements of rumsfeld era thinking

[grave ravine]

Yeah, the whole hot swapping modules was incredibly ambitious, and it's unsurprising that it didn't work out

The ships ought to have been built with a single role in mind, but common hull and systems, because that's what has ended up happening anyways

With ships either having the surface warfare or MCM package

But also the conditions that led to their construction at all were fleeting, other than refreshing the MCM fleet (which did desperately need to happen), these are just not the ships the USN needs (though the surface warfare role is also still useful, since we now have the ships)

For all that, the ships now are very good MCM boats, and decent and still useful antiship missile slingers and small boat hunters

[humble jewel]

Ngl, easy modifications are great, but doesn't really work that well for weapons.

[humble jewel]

it... kinda is though

[grave ravine]

Wikipedia is just wrong here though

[grave ravine]

Constellation does not do what LCS does, Constellation is a high end AAW and ASW frigate

[naive crag]

Independence was supposed to have an ASW package...

[grave ravine]

The only real way that Constellation is a follow on for LCS is that they are both small surface combatants in USN parlance, so they both serve to provide junior officers command opportunities

[grave ravine]

It was supposed to be a specialist littoral ASW package for hunting Iranian mini subs, but it was quickly cut because it didn't work and was frankly a little silly

Also it was supposed to be for both classes

[humble jewel]

I see... wait... I thought LCS has ASW capabilities...

[grave ravine]

See my above messge

[humble jewel]

Damn, so basically they developed a useless ASW package 💀

[grave ravine]

Well, it got cancelled before being anywhere close to being ready to be fielded

Also it's worth noting that LCS was shaping up to be a really really crappy ASW boat even if they did get the package working, because the high speed powerplant was antithetical to any quieting

[humble jewel]

Damn.. and the fact it was supposed to be a stealthy ship

[grave ravine]

I mean it does have significant RCS reduction

Though that leads to another thing that didn't pan out, though in this case it affected a number of navies

[humble jewel]

Only radar though. Submarines would be detecting that thing easily

[grave ravine]

Simply put unlike with planes, RCS reduction at sea was just insufficient to ensure survivability of a ship (though it is still useful)

The promises of stealth ships were just vastly overblown

[grave ravine]

Yes and no, it's worth noting that it's just generally hard to detect things via sonar in the littorals

[humble jewel]

The stealth craze was overrated tbh. Only worked in planes cuz they focus mainly on radar guided stuff

[humble jewel]

I see.

[grave ravine]

A lot of AShMs are also radar guided (which is why RCS reduction is still important for ships), but it's a lot less of a game changer than it is for planes

[humble jewel]

And the fact that ships have more counters against missiles than a plane (which is mostly limited to flares) makes it kinda redundant

[grave ravine]

The fact that the LCS is pretty noisy does make it somewhat easier for submarines to detect, which would have been an issue for the ASW role (but not as much of a threat to the ship's survivability), but more importantly it also significantly impaired the effectiveness of the ship's own sonars

[humble jewel]

That's a shame tbh

[ivory ridge]

https://youtu.be/odS3Kn5oGl0?si=w3aRvt2De4TKlbnR
Perun video from a couple months ago

[grave ravine]

Ships have more ways to deal with AShMs because they need them, simply put whereas for planes RCS reduction is winning the arms race, for ships sensors are, and so survivability is fundamentally based on either staying out of the view of sensors entirely, or being able to prevent missiles from hitting you

Though RCS reduction is still important, because it significantly improves the efficacy of countermeasures, it's just not the game changer it is for planes

See also the Hanit attack

[grave ravine]

While I like Perun, frankly that video was not very good, though the Zumwalt section was where most of the issues were

[ivory ridge]

yeah

but i think the lcs part is great

[grave ravine]

I recall having some issues with the LCS section too, but I'd have to rewatch the video to recall them

[subtle prawn]

So remind me, what stuff did he say about the Zumwalt?

[manic latch]

Too much focus on the gun

[humble jewel]

Plus, wasn't one of the reasons of the Zumwalts were so expensive was the focus on RCS reduction?

[grave ravine]

Not really, ultimately the biggest reason Zumwalt is so expensive is because the buy got slashed and they didn't realize economies of scale

[ivory ridge]

this is why

[junior trench]

if you divorce program cost from product cost, a lot of things will look much cheaper

[grave ravine]

As Krem mentioned way too much talk about the gun, he postures the ship as a Burke replacement, flat out ignoring the ASW half of the mission set, and other things Id have to rewatch the video to recall

[ivory ridge]

the ship is fine, it still has more VLS than any non-asian navy destroyer

[junior trench]

and program costs aren't solely expended on a single program with how much R&D work and results is produced

[ivory ridge]

the funny

[grave ravine]

This in itself is part of the problem, because as mentioned Zumwalt was not at all envisioned as a follow on for Burke

But rather as a replacement for the Spruance class DDs

[humble jewel]

I see. I just thought it would be as expensive as a plane's RCS development

[manic latch]

Tho problem comes with Flight III

Burke class ends

Zumwalt gets cancelled

Burke class starts again

[grave ravine]

And of course the Burke flight IIIs are replacement for the Ticos

[manic latch]

Ye but

Why Burke class construction was ended again?

[grave ravine]

Because CG(X) was a goober ass program

[grave ravine]

Original buy was ended, the navy had originally been planning to get a new clean sheet AAW destroyer

The money was not there, they looked at an AAW version of Zumwalt, the money was still not there, so Burke got modernized and production restarted

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/poor-man-gif-23343928

[grave ravine]

GWOT and peace dividend were not great for the navy, or the US military in general

[runic ermine]

Oof

[humble jewel]

They were too damn ambitious

[ivory ridge]

or... any military in the world

[grave ravine]

Nah, everything on Zumwalt worked fine (absent the usual teething issues with any new ship)

Zumwalt was a great Sprucan replacement, the navy just realized they didn't actually need a Sprucan replacement

Like with Zumwalt it's important to note the chronology, the cost blowout and shit happened after the navy decided to slash the buy, because they actually wanted more AAW destroyers instead

[grave ravine]

I mean I'd say it was pretty good for China

[ivory ridge]

I would say their rise is unrelated to those tho

[humble jewel]

Damn... so they just scrapped a good looking destroyer for that 😔

[grave ravine]

I think it helped a lot that the USN basically lost a decade and a half of procurement dollars

[manic latch]

Yeah this for example was one of the talks during 1991

[manic latch]

I wonder if this design variant of CVNX is related to this type of thinking (which also includes LCS of course)

You don't need a supercarrier if there is no superpower left

[humble jewel]

What is this monstrosity

[manic latch]

Ford class gone through shitton of design options before she was picked

This was one of them

[humble jewel]

I don't get it. Why redesign the standard modern carrier design? It works perfectly already

[manic latch]

Supercarriers are expensive

[humble jewel]

True.

[manic latch]

They wanted to look at cheaper or better designs

This one has 2 islands

[humble jewel]

I think this doesn't solve it tbh

[manic latch]

This one has island in middle

[humble jewel]

Tried to copy from the Brits I see..

[humble jewel]

Ew

[manic latch]

This one has ramp, no catapults

[humble jewel]

Interesting ngl. Could work

[lime scarab]

Are these the next USA super aircraft carrier concepts

[manic latch]

Concepts that lead to Ford class

[humble jewel]

It was for the Ford

[manic latch]

This one was steroid Nimitz

[tawny lava]

You know the ace combat people were drooling over all these proposals

[humble jewel]

Ngl, these concepts look more expensive than cose saving

[manic latch]

This one is the expensive option

[humble jewel]

Actually, I could see this one work

[humble jewel]

Very expensive

[lime scarab]

By the way I know we aren’t talking about the constellation class anymore but they were also supposed to easy the need to send all the USA destroyers around the world because they might be need for important missions

[manic latch]

This one is likely the most expensive one

Twin hulls

[wintry moat]

Wack

[lime scarab]

USA really came up with wired concepts

For the next gen aircraft carriers

[humble jewel]

Tryna use the twin Mustang concept on ships now?

[grave ravine]

Yeah, the Connies are basically a cheaper augment for the Burkes, though they are somewhat better ASW boats by virtue of simply being a lot newer

[spring briar]

modern ship talk

[manic latch]

Smoll Islands

[humble jewel]

Ngl, i feel like they were smoking pot for some of these concepts

[grave ravine]

Also it's worth noting that none of the wacky experimental drawings were likely to get built, they are mostly just to explore ideas

It was always most likely that the US would just build another generation of conventional supercarriers

[humble jewel]

I could see this work ig. Looks cool

[grave ravine]

IDK just be happy the channel is actually active

[lime scarab]

So basically they are solutions so the USA destroyers can do more important missions instead of dealing with submarines, missiles etc, because the brekus are a middle lunching platform right

[humble jewel]

Twin islands are a sight to see tbh.

[manic latch]

And this is the cheapest one I think

[humble jewel]

Ok they didn't try with this one

[manic latch]

I like this model

[humble jewel]

Works as a next gen LHD/LHA

[grave ravine]

Kinda, Constellation fundamentally does the same things Burke does, just somewhat less so for AAW and surface strike, both Connie and Burke are high end all round multirole combatants, though Connie is a smaller and cheaper one so that the US can simply get more ships out there, Connies will both free up Burkes from less critical environments to go to the IndoPac and elsewhere, but they will also likely be present in those places, because they are fundamentally capable ships

[manic latch]

American Kiev be like

[humble jewel]

Speaking of LHD... I hope they turn USS Bataan as a museum ship

[manic latch]

Age of museum ships are over

[subtle prawn]

And the Constellations are three years behind schedule already

[humble jewel]

It's kind of like the destroyer-carrier hybrid I've been thinking of

[grave ravine]

We are getting an OHP as a museum ship

[manic latch]

I still love how Wisconsin river nerfed Constellation

[humble jewel]

😔

[manic latch]

Prevented her bow getting a sonar since it doesn't fit

[grave ravine]

I mean that's mostly because of Covid

[humble jewel]

It's expected because of the shit we've experienced in the past 5 years

[lime scarab]

It’s a good thing there taking there time instead of rushing because rushing those ships can lead to issues when lunched

[subtle prawn]

I thought it had something to do with the shipyard looking for workers

[lime scarab]

That too

[manic latch]

I Don't remember a modern warship that had problems because of rushing

Government pay you money to finish it by X time

[lime scarab]

Gearld r ford had some problems

[manic latch]

If you delay it, there can be punishment

[manic latch]

That's new tech problem

Navy didn't wanted her to load up +20 new tech

[grave ravine]

Initial construction was delayed a couple years because of Covid, and the workforce issues are delaying it a further year or so

[humble jewel]

The Fords ain't rushed though.

[grave ravine]

and the workforce issues are at least partially because of Covid, but there are a lot of other reasons for them too

[manic latch]

Yup

"The Navy expected to receive the Enterprise in the spring of 2028, but supply chain issues and shortages in necessary materials have caused an 18-month delay, pushing the delivery date to September 2029."

Fords are actually missing the schedule a bit

[lime scarab]

Yeah but the new technology elevators where not working right

[humble jewel]

Oh, no wonder why.

[humble jewel]

I mean, new technology = new problems

Minor tweaks and it's fixed

[lime scarab]

True

[humble jewel]

Usually

[grave ravine]

the mass delays that hit a bunch of programs lately stem largely from three root causes, Covid, the atrophying of the defense base due to GWOT and the peace dividend, and the fact that the USN is pursuing a very aggressive procurement program

the shortage of workers today is a reflection of all three of those, as well as a general underemphasis on the trades in the US

[lime scarab]

Also I keep looking if they laid down any other constellation hual expect constellation herself but nope it’s just her right now

[manic latch]

Where you gonna lay those hulls lol

Most people usually forget ships take slots on docks

[lime scarab]

Well the company working on them had three shipyards so they could lay those hual in the second too

Unless they have other ships under construction right now

[manic latch]

That company also build Freedom class

Wonder if those still occupy it

Oh wait they do

Uss Nantucket under construction

2 more Freedom on order

[lime scarab]

Ok so my previous comment unintentionally

[grave ravine]

FMM is currently working on one Freedom, the 4 MMSC, and Connie

IIRC

[lime scarab]

What are 4 MMSC

[grave ravine]

Beloit and Cleveland already launched and are currently undergoing fitting out, FMM's bottleneck is in construction rather than fitting out

[grave ravine]

Multi-Mission Surface combatant, a derivative of the Freedoms based on FMM's initial offer for FFG(X) before they proposed the FREMM, being built for the Saudis

[lime scarab]

O so they are building a saudis frigate then right now

[grave ravine]

yeah, 4 of them

[lime scarab]

Have they just started construction

[grave ravine]

yeah

as mentioned the ships FMM currently has under construction in their slips are the last Freedom, 4 MMSCs, and Connie

[tawny lava]

Why exactly did the US order ships from Fincantieri of all places? Genuinely curious

[lime scarab]

Sounds like Connie is on the last priority on their list unless I’m wrong

[grave ravine]

Connie is their design, and its a shipyard the US wants to grow, its likely they will start ordering Connies from a second yard soon, possibly Austal

[grave ravine]

its just the last to get started, the 4 MMSCs were ordered before the Connies

[tawny lava]

To supplement domestic production i assume?

[lime scarab]

So they will start building congress in a California shipyard correct

[grave ravine]

FMM is in Wisconsin

[tawny lava]

Hold on a moment

[grave ravine]

Fincantieri bought a failing US shipyard a while back, its their US subsidiary

[tawny lava]

Ohh

Makes much more sense now

[grave ravine]

Austal's main yard is on the gulf coast IIRC

Also @lime scarab actually all the Freedom class LCS have already been launched

the only ships on the slips right now are MMSC and Connie

[lime scarab]

Nice so maybe the shipyard that the CLS had occupied can go to another Connie unless the other frigates need to be start

[grave ravine]

Also Congress has already been ordered from FMM

[grave ravine]

Austal looks to be the frontrunner for opening the second Connie yard, though they are also busy with a large number of other programs

[lime scarab]

Really do you have a article about that or something

[lime scarab]

We just have to wait and see

[grave ravine]

https://www.navy.mil/Press-Office/Press-Releases/display-pressreleases/Article/2435589/secnav-names-future-guided-missile-frigate-uss-congress/

[lime scarab]

O ok

[grave ravine]

Anyways Austal is currently building a bunch of cutters for the USCG, but they have also reportedly been having much better luck hitting their hiring targets

[lime scarab]

When is congress supposed to start to be built because I can’t see the year it’s supposed to be lay down

[lime scarab]

That’s good news

[grave ravine]

whenever the first of the MMSC gets launched, which should be soon

[lime scarab]

I’m so excited to see a constellation class being built and construction pictures and finally lunched

[manic latch]

It's not impressive

Literally American Fremm

Without hull sonar cuz it doesn't fit to river

[lime scarab]

I know but I think the design looks so nice

@manic latch what’s your take on the USA navy?

[manic latch]

It's a big and rich navy, fits to the doctrine of US which desires influence and protection of its interests around the globe

Supercarriers and military naval bases in foreign countries they posses influence upon symbolizes it

Can it be better? For sure

Can it afford to be better? Yes

Will it be better? Dunno

[ivory ridge]

thats based

(even if i think it's uglier)

57mm gun on a 7k tons platform

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/clashreport/status/1795554760042446908

[tawny lava]

Hope the pilot is okay

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V4zbnLr53M

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUacFliPJpQ

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1795491816118399114

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1945, FADM Chester Nimitz addressed the crew of HMS King George V to emphasize the vital role of the Royal Navy in winning the war in the Pacific. To further express U.S. appreciation of British efforts, Nimitz gave the crew an American ice cream machine.

Twitter · May 28, 2024, 4:26 PM

[runic ermine]

Lot of bismarck posts lately

[manic latch]

She sank few days ago

[steel rapids]

[frozen kestrel]

holy fucking shit i didn't think the guns went that high

[shrewd pecan]

type of elevation you need to smack targets out to 40 KMs

[hallow atlas]

if I'm reading this doc correctly, is the area circled in red where jean bart was constructed?

https://maisondelamer.fr/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/LIVRET-TECHNOLOGIQUE-3-LES-FORMES-DE-RADOUB-.pdf

[junior jacinth]

https://youtu.be/n59SIJNaNao?si=9fvJUDITBqTnpHaa

[shrewd pecan]

Have a selection of images from my visit at the war memorial of Korea

Must say the K9 is absolutely gigantic in person

It dwarfs the M107, M110 and K1 they have sitting next to it

Shame they don’t have a K55/M109 there

Helicopters were in a kinda weird place

They were on top of the children’s area with a staircase out of the way

[desert agate]

yoo i was there in january

excellent museum met a korean bloke who told me about his time in the war and showed me through an official history of the US Army during the war given to him by some servicemen

everything was a covered in snow too which was cool

[shrewd pecan]

shame that the translations on the displays were kinda limited

[desert agate]

yeah but you can still get the gist of things

[shrewd pecan]

but very cool museum to just see things

yeah

at a minimum Seouls been good at communicating the gist of things with basic translations

[desert agate]

I went to the UN cemetery in Busan also to pay my respects

Very good collection of memorials and museums overall

[shrewd pecan]

Busans probably too far out for this trip

came here primarily to hangout with my brother who lives here for a couple of weeks

[desert agate]

Busan is probably my favourite city outside of Nagasaki

In Asia

[shrewd pecan]

also I have the benefit of crashing in my brothers apartment for two weeks so my only expenses so far was the like 2k plane ticket and food

[desert agate]

Pretty lucky damn

Shame food is a bit pricier in Korea but still cheaper than in the West lol

[shrewd pecan]

man when I saw it was like 8 bucks for two peoples worth of McDonalds

I was in awe man

🥹 22 bucks a hour wage slave rates back in the US carrying me in Korea fr

[desert agate]

Fuck maccas bro Korean food is so much better

I did have maccas once or twice but mainly out of laziness cos snow is a cunt as I learned

Worst part about Korea is that beer is more expensive than Japan frfr

[autumn sorrel]

Korean Fried Chicken

[autumn sorrel]

This I like

[shrewd pecan]

I don’t really drink so I’m fine in that regard

[shrewd pecan]

oh it is

Already had my Korean fried chicken and curry

I just wanted to see McDonalds outside of the US

kinda want to see if I can find a Korean restaurant that does a Korean take on American food since that seems like a interesting thing to try

[visual rover]

27 May 2024 the royal netherlands navy de zeven provinciën class air-defence and command frigate: “HNLMS Tromp F-803” she leave vietnam sail to sea

[shrewd pecan]

Also have the Aussie stuff I saw there as well

[autumn sorrel]

Spam hotpod

[tawny lava]

Oh look, the better sten

[shrewd pecan]

oh they have basically everything there

zb-26s

Shittons of mosins

[autumn sorrel]

Shame that VPN fumble the plan to acquire Netherland ship

[tawny lava]

Vintage firearms collecting is one of my pipedreams, especially since i discovered that utalian gun laws are nowhere near as restrictive as i thought they were

[autumn sorrel]

I know this one, something about American gunboat policy to open Korea

[shrewd pecan]

It was on the US expedition into Korea in 1866

[tawny lava]

Even just a bottom of the barrel mosin, I'd love to own one of em

[shrewd pecan]

They also had one for the French expedition

oh they had shittons of mosins

ranging from nork ones to Russian-Japanese war ones

[visual rover]

VPN dont have sigma class. This time dutch ship visit vietnam

[shrewd pecan]

Ever in Korea visit this place man

it’s completely free

And they have basically anything you’d want to see

[autumn sorrel]

Captured by Japanese and issued to Korea during ww2?

[shrewd pecan]

idk the story of that particular Mosin

I just know it was a Japanese-Russian war one

[autumn sorrel]

VPN keep saying about buying SIGMA but in the end just settle with patrol ship

[visual rover]

Russo-Japanese war time start 1904-1905 using mosin and type 30 arisaka?

[autumn sorrel]

Mosin already issued by that time, I would be more interested if they have a Berdan

[shrewd pecan]

yeah

[shrewd pecan]

Said mosin is in the third image here btw

[autumn sorrel]

Bc some Russian unit serve in the Far East during the war still have Berdan, Japanese also still use Murata as well

[shrewd pecan]

found my Minnesota connection to the museum

“North American F-51D-25-NA Mustang 44–73494. This aircraft was built at North American Aviation's Inglewood, California plant in 1944. It eventually served with the 109th Fighter Squadron of the Minnesota ANG, where it was stationed until 1952. In July of that year, it was transferred to the ROKAF as aircraft to serve in the Korean War, marked as aircraft "K-205”

[autumn sorrel]

Is that a shrouded front sight? Bc early production model don't have that. Also I can't identify the rear sight.

[shrewd pecan]

idk

I only took one photo and didn’t pay much attention to it

[desert agate]

You insult the Owen by comparing it to the sten

[desert agate]

Yeah the Aussie representation was really cool

[tawny lava]

Which is why i said that the owen was better

[desert agate]

I know

[tawny lava]

The british were just too proud to admit it

[desert agate]

But they’re not even in the same weight class

It’s like coughing baby vs hydrogen bomb

[manic latch]

https://youtu.be/dldrGyk0g1k?si=AKK5OH6aiOc5YzU1

[steel rapids]

You gotta be kidding me

[grave ravine]

You know for the first few years after WW2 the US Army's aggressor force was patterned not on the Soviets, but on the French and Spanish

[manic latch]

Gaulle also disliked Nato

[manic latch]

Think this is his quote

“NATO is an academy of empty words. It is an organization that weakens our defense capabilities, instills the idea that defense is inconceivable without it, thus numbing our sense of national independence. NATO is in fact a deception, a camouflage for the US takeover Europe”.

[ivory ridge]

delusional

[tawny lava]

Not ENTIRELY

But pretty delusional

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwhyhnybyqg

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W8W-nYZeMY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxFzH59X7GY

[steel rapids]

Oat the fuck

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2024/05/29/constellation-frigate-unplanned-weight-growth-could-limit-service-life-says-gao

[shrewd pecan]

Swedish testing of the Leclerc and M1A2

[junior trench]

*M1A?

the Swedish tests were of a GD developed upgrade package claimed to be equivalent to M1A2 but not subject to the stricter export controls

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1795841124915114317

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1940, the Vought F4U Corsair flew for the first time. In 1943, the Corsair and F6F Hellcat (AKA the "Terrible Twins") destroyed 5 enemy planes for every U.S. plane lost. This 1944 photo is of factory-fresh Corsairs and Hellcats being prepared to be shipped to the Pacific.

Twitter · May 29, 2024, 3:34 PM

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1795623758499078206

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1908, Ian Fleming was born. While serving as an officer in the Royal Navy's Naval Intelligence Division, the creator of James Bond traveled to Washington to advise Col. "Wild Bill" Donovan on the development of the U.S. intelligence agency that eventually became the CIA.

Twitter · May 29, 2024, 1:10 AM

[shrewd pecan]

idk what else to call it

considering it has the CITV

main difference was just the armor package so

Export grade M1A2

[cinder escarp]

yeah just an M1A2 FMS

[desert agate]

https://x.com/thegeneralboard/status/1796143935305155040

Navy General Board (@thegeneralboard) on X

Which do you think was the better treaty battleship?

#History #Poll #ThursdayTrivia

Twitter · May 30, 2024, 11:37 AM

@maiden citrus

immense cope in this poll

@junior trench

[manic latch]

Wtf

Literally worst ship on the list

[desert agate]

literally any answer that isnt Sodak or Riche is pure cope

[shrewd pecan]

[obtuse palm]

Riche certainly deserves to be not last at least

[eternal veldt]

Navy General Board

Good academic discussion

Pick one

and of course Richelieu is last, because France surrenders

I'm on the facebook group and its full of freeaboo wank

[manic latch]

British would surrender in a week if they were connected to land

[obtuse palm]

Tbh if Britain was connected to the land there would be an Angevin empire spanning both Britain and France

And possibly Sicily + the boot of Italy/Naples for reasons

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1796205818963955826

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD 1942, USS Yorktown deployed from Pearl Harbor for Midway after 1400 men worked around the clock for 48 hours to repair the severe damage the carrier had suffered at the Battle of the Coral Sea. The Japanese thought it had been sunk or too badly damaged to return to action.

Twitter · May 30, 2024, 3:43 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNrkNjuZXHw

[spring briar]

Yeah about as expected

[spring briar]

And if Bismarck were included she’d have the majority

[frozen kestrel]

That's the Wehrbs for ya

[runic ermine]

Or Yamato cuz weebs

[subtle prawn]

But neither of those two are treaty battleships

[spring briar]

Ye but you know that

And we know that

[runic ermine]

Yes. Me and richie were just joking around

[junior trench]

mfw people don't understand that SD was considered cramped... by USN standards

meanwhile the RN was still just berthing sailors by having them hang hammocs wherever

and the KGV magazine belt has the same effective thickness as the SD belt due to compound angles my beloved

while the machinery belt is less effective than NC's

[spring briar]

I can take solace in not having fucking 14” guns

[junior trench]

with banana shells

RN really pulling up to the treaty BB contest with RNG mechanics on their shell hardening patterns

and afaik the best shells aren't even available for the 14"

Cardonald pattern is a 15" thing

[spring briar]

The late stage decisions on the KGV design were absolutely dented

Makes sense considering where the project started

[spring briar]

yeah
and Cardonald mostly helps with penetration at low obliquity (0-30°) because of a stronger middle body and a harder nose (not sure if the caps were also better)
the banana'ing was an issue with the lower body being softer than usual
the British did this to ensure that the shell would be in a condition fit to burst (in combination with their deep and high walled base plug)
so not too sure if Cardonald shells would also experience the banana'ing (maybe the better middle body hardening supports the lower body a bit better)

(in any case this is only for 15" shells)

as you can see, due to their base plug design, you get a large ring of unsupported shell body around the base

which will just be subject to massive force when hitting thick plate at higher obliquity

which will just squish it

like I get why they did it (to protect the base plug/fuse) but there are better ways of doing this without weakening your shell

[obtuse palm]

From what I know, the 15 in Cardonald shells appear to be impacted less up to 40 degrees (don't really have testing outside this boundary though, only the 5.25 in mock ups). A 15 in Cardonald shell during trials could penetrate 12 in of armour at 40 degrees at 1900 ft/s, and scaled down tests in 1946 of 5.25 in against 4 in plate showed similar values to penetrate (1882 ft/s against British FH plate but with a slightly deeper than normal with a 37.5% depth face vs average face depth of 30%). Similar penetration values and results were obtained (for the mock tests) when tested against 4 in NC plate

[spring briar]

Can you share the 5.25” and 15” tests?

[obtuse palm]

I should have a portion of the 5.25 in tests atm

[spring briar]

But yeah it seems the improved middle body hardnening on tge Cardonald helps

[maiden citrus]

yee, I think I discussed that here at one point even

hit be kinda based for linking an outrage engagement farm poll

[obtuse palm]

Depends on which portion of the belt due to external belts following the hull, the magazine belt was actually inclined somewhere between 4 to 15 degrees (B turret vs Y turret)

[spring briar]

Sure, but that’s still only portions and the area with 15° angling is statistically vanishingly unlikely to be hit

[obtuse palm]

Yeah, about 1/2 of the armour covering the magazines is angled 10 degrees or larger, and about 1/3rd of that is angled at 15 degrees

[desert agate]

I’m always based maka 😎

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1796354180510289928

[tawny lava]

Figured i would drop some shots from my Italian air force museum visit last year

[fierce sparrow]

https://x.com/ChungTzuW/status/1796510653148184887

Chung-Tzu (@ChungTzuW) on X

Twitter · May 31, 2024, 11:54 AM

[junior jacinth]

https://youtu.be/YPBX1XUtxdE?si=HI64KiSdelEOAN74

[tawny lava]

@gloomy rune what i was saying, japan knew they were nevero going to outproduce the us, including battleship production. The idea behind the Yamatos was that, since japan would never outnumber the US battleship fleet, they might as well build the biggest and most powerful ship possible to make up for the numbers

[gloomy rune]

Ah yes that

[tawny lava]

Which wasn't an awful idea in concept

Didn't do them any good in the end tho, carriers were the way forward and battleships were a thing of the past. They just didn't fully realise that yet

[gloomy rune]

• the steel used for the armor was not good quality iirc

But I think that they were also too reckless in their operating

[tawny lava]

It was subpar compared to US steel

So inch for inch US steel was stronger

The yamatos are also older than some might realize, Yamato's construction was started the same year as north carolina

[gloomy rune]

Even ships such as Bismarck had a better armor than them despite Yamato's was supposed to be thicker

[tawny lava]

I don't know that for sure

[gloomy rune]

Whatever it's cool speaking of this stuff with someone

[gloomy rune]

Bismarck didn't sink even after 90 minutes of heavy bombing by KGV and Rodney

[tawny lava]

German steel is also not as good as most claim

[tawny lava]

Bismark was tough, but was also inefficient

[gloomy rune]

Yep

[tawny lava]

For all her tons 8 15inch guns are not world breaking

[gloomy rune]

True

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQOA6D4tKgU

[manic latch]

Yes

Yamato didn't use Cemented armor because Japan didn't bother/manage to do it in great thickness

She used Face Hardened British Vickers formula for her armor

So a non cemented, face hardened armor

Which gives Yamato quality of ww1 of British ships or so

[gloomy rune]

Basically WW1 ships with modern radars and big ass guns

Whatever, srry for speaking 'bout this stuff guys

[tawny lava]

Sorry for what, that's what we do here

[gloomy rune]

Just in case someone was annoyed/bothered by it

[tawny lava]

It's all good, that's what thr history channel is for. We talk about history, mostly ships

if anything it's good that we're breathing some life in this channel

[gloomy rune]

Alr

[frozen kestrel]

haha radar go fizzle

[tawny lava]

Most things german ww2 in a nutshell tbh

[grave ravine]

Thats not exactly abnormal for a battleship, if the magazines don't get hit and it has reasonably good subdivision and underwater protection it can be very hard to actually sink a ship with just shells

[grave ravine]

It's not the lack of cementing, it's the lack of rarer metal alloys, Japan didn't just use WW1 Vickers, it's just their metallurgists focused on removing alloying materials from the formula rather than pushing for better performance

[grave ravine]

The armor quality difference certainly would not have made up for the fact that Yamato's armor is just massively thicker

[gloomy rune]

Yes Ik Yamato's was thicker

[gloomy rune]

Those who explored the shipwreck said the hull and armor belt are practically intact. it is only a little dented by the 356mm shells of the KGV but otherwise everything is intact and there are no holes

But yes if a shell would have striked her magazine she would have blown up

[grave ravine]

There were in fact holes in the belt

[gloomy rune]

With "holes" I meant holes that allowed water to enter inside the ship

Dunno how they are called in english

[grave ravine]

bro the ship sank

wreck surveys found plenty of other damage, I posted this cuz its a great photo of a hole through the thickes portion of the belt