history

[tawny lava]

Not the commanders covering up their asses part, the historiography believing those memoirs to be true part

[runic ermine]

@tawny lava but the only the Chinese, Japanese, and to a limited extent, the Soviets used human wave tactics in ww2

[tawny lava]

I was referring to 70s historians propagating myths by blindly believing war memoirs

[tawny lava]

Although that's true

[steel rapids]

How they describe Soviet soldiers as guy fights without guns and bullets is so broken

[runic ermine]

Meanwhile the Soviets had a lot of them

[steel rapids]

Yeah but their soldiers do have proper weapons

They don't have good tactics

[runic ermine]

I know. Same thing people are saying about russia in ukraine

[tawny lava]

In that case it's only true to a very limited extent

[steel rapids]

What the fuck were they thinking, Russia is the 2nd place military powers how the fuck would they do that

[runic ermine]

Yes

[tawny lava]

The state of the Russian army isn't quite that dire

[runic ermine]

Moral boost I guess

[steel rapids]

Lol

[tawny lava]

There's propaganda on both sides, as with any war

[runic ermine]

Yes

[steel rapids]

Real

[runic ermine]

Speaking of the war in ukraine I'm planning on making a stop motion before taking apart my moc

Battle of Kharkiv

[steel rapids]

Nice

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1788717927807459734

[desert agate]

Was more to do with the fact that it was the Cold War and the only people that Western historians had access to who knew anything about the Soviet military during the war (obviously Soviet historians and archives were inaccessible) were Wehrmacht veterans and many of them were already trying to reform their image

[desert agate]

Why are you discussing this topic you should be fully aware by now that this is a taboo topic

[steel rapids]

Man i love Hornet and her sister

[runic ermine]

I know but still, people made stop motions on it so I wanted to make one before I take my Kharkiv moc apart

[junior trench]

"I know it's stupid and rule breaking but I'm gonna say it anyway"

Peak discord behavior

[runic ermine]

What rule?

[junior trench]

[runic ermine]

Also how is saying I'm planning on making a stop motion breaking a rule?

[desert agate]

Anything related to that conflict is an instant warning and potential club ban

But that’s on you

[runic ermine]

Oh my bad

I dont wanna be banned

[upper oar]

Srsly? That’s a dumb rule although I guess it isn’t technically history yet

[sullen canyon]

Yes, current events aren't really allowed to be mentioned in here.

[subtle prawn]

If they allowed discussion of that event here, chances are it probably would get toxic fairly quickly

[sullen canyon]

[wintry moat]

If Kievs comments in game are any indication

then your right

[frozen kestrel]

So apparently (according to wargaming) Bismarck had a tiny elevator on the funnel

[alpine onyx]

Not sure if the ammo hoists went up all the way to the AA platform on her funnel, so might be for that

Or just general purpose lift, wouldn't want to carry spare parts for the searchlight up the ladder

[upper oar]

Yeah true true

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnTH5chuFiI

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-gear-rising-metal-gear-rising-revengeance-senator-armstrong-revengeance-i-made-it-the-fuck-up-gif-25029602

What's wrong with Kommuna wtf

US still have Uss Constitution under service are they are joke for still having a sail frigate in Navy

[tawny lava]

When was the last time you saw it in active service i wonder

Kommuna is still being used

[runic ermine]

Understandable. I just wanted to make a stop motion before taking my moc apart

[runic ermine]

And Sevastopol's comments

[manic latch]

So?

What makes her bad?

[tawny lava]

It's as much in service as HMS Victory, in that it's in service just in the papers, nobody is sending her into combat

[tawny lava]

Relying on century old ships isn't exactly a sign of a healthy navy

[manic latch]

Why would you send a support vessel into a combat?

[tawny lava]

You don't, if you're sane

[manic latch]

???

Are you drunk

[tawny lava]

Am i?

[manic latch]

So what's wrong with Kommuna again(

[tawny lava]

You were the one who brought up the constitution as if it was still being sailed alongside the latest supercrriers, what's the argument

[manic latch]

I said she was in service like Kommuna is

Never said she is being used as escort, and Kommuna is not doing that either

[tawny lava]

Kommuna itself is not the problem, it's the fact that it's still actively being used taht peoves taht the russian navy can't even afford a replacement

My argument wasn't "kommuna bad"

[manic latch]

So they can afford Yasen Ms, new Boreis, Gorshkov class etc but can't afford a Kommuna replacement?

[tawny lava]

It was "russian navy sucks because they still use 100 year old ships"

[manic latch]

Wow

[tawny lava]

Well apparently not

Otherwise they would have invested into a more capable vessel

[manic latch]

More capable in what

[tawny lava]

Well anything really

More lifting capacity, larger, more modern,

[manic latch]

This is what Italy use for same duty, it doesn't take much to be a submarine rescue ship

Since you carry the drone thingy

deep-submergence rescue vehicles (DSRV's)

[tawny lava]

I'd wager that's not 100 years old

[manic latch]

Nah it's from late 70s

[tawny lava]

And again there's nothing really wrong with that

[manic latch]

Yes you prove my point

Ship doesn't matter if it can carry the DSRV's

[tawny lava]

If anything it's imprssive kommuna is still sailing around, especially with a navy with such unbelievably awful history with ship maintenance

But instead they go prancing about that anything they build is the greatest thing ever when it's just a facade

[manic latch]

What

I don't know what make you butthurt about them

But what's wrong with Gorshkov class for example?

[desert agate]

kommuna is a serviceable ship for what is required of it

[manic latch]

And seems still be important enough to get under missile attacks (which failed)

[desert agate]

it hasnt left port much in recent years due to reasons that cannot be discussed but it offers the Russian navy a rare capability to support its undersea warfare assets

most of the ship isnt original either, afaik she was reengined some time ago and was undertaking undersea salvage operations as recently as 2022

i would argue that a newer ship wouldnt offer any greater capability and the Russian naval industry has arguably bigger priorities

support vessels are usually the oldest ships found in various navies alongside training ships, they often last a lot longer as they tend to have less significant operational tempo and tend not to face as much of the harder service that combatants see

110 years is definitely stretching things a little but at the end of the day support vessels are always on the lowest priority for replacement

i'd note that the USN has at least one ship in active service that saw service in Vietnam

[manic latch]

Most navies have only 1 submarine rescue ships too

Max being 2

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_ship_Poseidon

She was from 60s but

She sank

[tawny lava]

Russian propaganda and Vatniks

[manic latch]

So you blame the ship for what people say

Propaganda is common for every navy and ship, but ships shouldn't be called amazing or junk from them alone

An example

Edited photos, lying titles with caps, claim that this "laser carrier" will beat Chinese navy

Is it Ford or Nimitz's fault that they are under these propaganda lies and postures?

[tawny lava]

Once again

I don't have a problem with kommuna itself

And those type of video annoy me just as much

I happen to not stand Russian propaganda even more because of the damage it's doing to european countries, and mine specifically

[desert agate]

stop arguing against nothing in this channel then?

like bro

[tawny lava]

In hindsight my argument wasn't very sound and i apologize

It was more born out of bias than any genuine reason

[manic latch]

Obvious lol

[tawny lava]

Actually not really bias, more like personal views

[manic latch]

cause to feel or show inclination or prejudice for or against someone or something.

So yes

[tawny lava]

Yes

[ivory ridge]

I don't agree with the other user 100% but that's a bad faith argument

[manic latch]

What's the bad faith about oldest being military vessel under commission

[ivory ridge]

You're comparing what is essentially a training ship to one that actively participated in the conflict by supporting the submarine currently firing missiles

[manic latch]

They were designed for different roles ye

Constitution is not capable of doing missions Kommuna does

So training ship is her role

[ivory ridge]

A training ship with no active role during a war

They are not comparable

[manic latch]

Uhhh

She is a training ship

Shouldn't be in war in first place

Constitution in Iraq lol

Morale boost I guess

[desert agate]

constitution isnt even a training ship

she's a ceremonial vessel

she doesnt even leave boston harbour

[alpine onyx]

Better not be looking atthe ceremonial guard rifles of different militaries

[desert agate]

an actual tall ship training vessel would be something like STS Young Endeavour which regularly sails on open ocean and makes foreign port visits regularly

[alpine onyx]

USCS Eagle

[tawny lava]

Or Amerigo Vespucci

[desert agate]

i forgot the American one

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Blue_Ridge_(LCC-19)

She is underrated

From 60s but still

[alpine onyx]

Formerly Horst Wessel, war price of WW2

[manic latch]

Unique vessel

[manic latch]

Expected to retire in 2039

[ivory ridge]

You're just helping my point

[manic latch]

No

Kommuna is not a training ship lol

Her duty is different

And she is capable of doing said duty

[steel rapids]

[manic latch]

Show me the fire Ghidorah

I'm super curious

[steel rapids]

I cant find it

Motherfucker took the video down

[manic latch]

So it was fake yes

[steel rapids]

No

[manic latch]

So your proof is

Single video

That's now deleted

[steel rapids]

[ivory ridge]

Who the fuck said she was

You're the one that started this by comparing 2 extremely different ships

Like are you being disingenuous on purpose

[manic latch]

By notion of 2 oldest commissioned ships in their navies

With different designs relating to different duties

[ivory ridge]

You're doing it on purpose ok

[manic latch]

I don't assign their roles

[ivory ridge]

It's a dumb comparison

[manic latch]

Hmm one is much older ye

And use wind for propulsion

So duties she can be assigned is significantly less

[ivory ridge]

One is an active participant in a war and the other is a ship that barely leave the fucking port

[tawny lava]

Your point is correct but the example wasn't very fitting

[manic latch]

I don't know what prevents her leaving the port

[ivory ridge]

Jesus man

What do you even gain from this

[manic latch]

Chance to learn something new about this 2 vessel

However the potential observers didn't made their facts be known yet

So it sometimes works

[ivory ridge]

You're not learning anything, you're being a stubborn idiot

[manic latch]

Stubborn for what

I accepted that they have different duties and designs

[ivory ridge]

In thinking your comparison even remotely made sense

[manic latch]

I do have weakness of seeing ships as more than objects

So perhaps that approach makes me fail to see their big differences ignoring the design and weaponry aspect of it

Kinda envy you now Undef

[remote monolith]

https://news.wttw.com/2024/05/06/field-museum-archaeopteryx-fossil-unveiled-backstory

god

the 13th Archaeopteryx in the world right now

and probably the most complete

beautiful

absolutely beautiful

plus they managed to get it out of Germany so its now in the Field Museum

[ivory ridge]

Nice

[remote monolith]

these are some of the best fossils you'll ever find, since it was prepared with the best technology available right now rather than from the 1800s

which uh, people from the 1800s tend to not be careful

[tawny lava]

Me definitely knowing what that is

[remote monolith]

it is a dinosaur from the Jurassic, one that shows surprising bird like characteristics when it was first found and helped prove that birds are indeed dinosaurs that survived the K-Pg Impact

it also proved feathers, wings and other bird features evolved far earlier than thought

[tawny lava]

Fascinating

[spring briar]

birb

[tawny lava]

[tawny lava]

So those renders of T-Rex and others with feather are actually accurate, for instance?

[remote monolith]

for Tyrannosaurus and big theropods its still uncertain, giant animals tend to not have a lot of feather/fur coverings after a certain size, but juvenile species probably has feathers that fall off as an adult. Then again Tyrannosaurus's lineage is fairly close to birds unlike a lot of meat-eating dinosaurs, where in their cases feathers is probably nonexistent

[tawny lava]

That's awesome

[spring briar]

I'm seeing that the paleo community is indeed returning to a more scaly/featherless T-rex
which is nice and seems more logical

looking at Lucy's model

and planet dinosaur

[tawny lava]

I always found the (no longer) idea of dinosaurs having feathers a far more visually appealing one than the big lizard archetype most are familiar with

[spring briar]

fits well on raptors

[tawny lava]

Agreed

[spring briar]

and juvenile apex's

[remote monolith]

both are pretty cool just that, well, when you look at mammals for example after a certain size they tend to go bald, outside of special circumstances like living in snowy conditions

[tawny lava]

Is there a reason for this?

[remote monolith]

elephants, rhinos and hippos for example have minimal hair

[tawny lava]

I would assume they develop thicker skins for protection?

[remote monolith]

partly that, partly if they retain thick hair/fur/feathers they can easily overheat

since they're so big

[autumn sorrel]

I like Feather T-rex, it look like a giant parrot, which tickle me

[tawny lava]

I see

[autumn sorrel]

About the heat thingy, have people come to unanimous about the Spinosaurus?

About it being bipedal or quad pedal yet?

[remote monolith]

until we have better materials I can't answer for sure

the problem with Spinosaurus is how little remains we got

some people thinks the current spinosaurus specimens we had is a chimera of different animals that we thought is one, it happened before

[autumn sorrel]

For example?

Ah, a Chimera, like Platypus?

[remote monolith]

Anomalocaris, turns out its 3 different fossils that just happened to preserve nearby instead of a single animal

[autumn sorrel]

Huh, so they hypothesis that Spinosaurus is likely a misidentification case?

[remote monolith]

yeah, because the location of the fossils came from different sites that they brought in together to assemble, so some people thought its possible we got a different, smaller Spinosaurid part together which accounts for the absolutely insane numbers we got

for example there's no fucking way a 7 ton animal has feets that can only support a max weight of 1,5 tons

either something in the calculations went horrifically wrong, they used a wrong model, or the legs came from something else

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, but the leg doesn't match any other species?

[remote monolith]

nope, only that the leg obviously comes from a Spinosaurid

[autumn sorrel]

So possibly still a Spinosaurus but not what people think it is

[remote monolith]

yep

like I said, need more fossils to sort this out

[spring briar]

ideally an almost complete fossil

with elements of the skull, legs, sail, tail and claws

[remote monolith]

and a lot of people think if the original fossils didn't get bombed in Berlin during WW2 we'd sort it out by now but.....problem is all evidence indicates the Germans didn't found a whole lot too

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, but the estimate overall weight is about 7 tons, even if some of the part maybe misidentify, the sail should belong to a very big specimen

[remote monolith]

yeah the size is obvious, its very long, but not as heavy as a Tyrannosaurus

[spring briar]

mf jurrasic park 3 has done so much damage to the paleocommunity

[autumn sorrel]

So possible that at least 2 new species from that hypothesis

[manic latch]

T Rex fans when Deinosuchus

[remote monolith]

T. rex are absolutely chonkers cause they weight twice an elephant at max and at regular they got a good 2-4 tons over

[autumn sorrel]

Unironically that franchise got me into paleo and history in general

That and Indiana Jones

[remote monolith]

Deinosuchus are actually smaller and lighter

so a Tyrannosaurus would have disemboweled one

and that's a maximum sized Deinosuchus

[tawny lava]

Fatality

[spring briar]

Liopleurodon situation there

[remote monolith]

this is what happens if you get Jack Horner ina project

[spring briar]

mf Jack Horner

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

Scavenger Trex pilled

[remote monolith]

all the homies hate Jack Horner

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Hooow

[autumn sorrel]

What family that Komodo descent from again?

[remote monolith]

because Deinosuchus ranges from 8 to 10 meters, while Tyrannosaurus maxed at 12 meters, and in weight Deinosuchus might have grown no bigger than 8 tons to the Tyrannosaurus's 15

[remote monolith]

might have been related to Mosasaurs

but the prehistory of lizards is pretty murky

[manic latch]

At least they should still have strongest bite force of history

[spring briar]

eh

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

probably

[remote monolith]

actually...

Deinosuchus tops at 18k Newton
Adult Tyrannosaurus at 35k

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

is that based on the latest estimates for both?

[manic latch]

Bruh

Goes up to 102k

[autumn sorrel]

"Modern"

[manic latch]

READ LOWER

[remote monolith]

the 35k is the newest estimation, yes

[spring briar]

nice

[manic latch]

Then i choose Deinosuchus's 102k estimation

[spring briar]

also tf is that Deinosuchus estimate
it literally ranges from 18000 to 5 times more

[remote monolith]

problem with larger number like this is that its pretty far

[autumn sorrel]

Economic of scale, like how Krem see it, 5 time bigger than something so it must be 5 times stronger

[remote monolith]

its a massive range, and its fairly old, from 2012

[spring briar]

krem hates Trex somehow

[remote monolith]

idk if anyone has touched Deinosuchus again

kinda have to wait until some Paleontologists take a look and use more advanced models for it

[autumn sorrel]

Too well researched into?

[manic latch]

Overrated Chicken

[spring briar]

anyway their bite forces are relative/comparable
I think that's fair

[manic latch]

[tawny lava]

Big croc

[remote monolith]

nah the opposite, usually not enough new materials so they stay obscure and being obscure nobody cares to take a look deeper and-well you get the idea

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, it could scale like that but do Deinosuchus really need that kind of bite force?

[spring briar]

yes

because their prey is big

and because they probably had a similar feeding style to modern crocs

[remote monolith]

crocodiles kinda need the powerful bite since their prey is strong+ they kinda, yknow, can't chew things

[spring briar]

they need to rip off entire sections

while dragging prey into the water

[autumn sorrel]

They just roll at that point

[spring briar]

which requires a strong bite

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/crocodile-croc-animal-capture-crocodile-trap-dangertv-gif-13856631

Spinny

[tawny lava]

https://tenor.com/view/xqc-spin-gif-21121522

[autumn sorrel]

Oh right, any new about Gustave?

[remote monolith]

probably dead, by now its about a century old

by that age a crocodile would have lost its entire teeth

[autumn sorrel]

Wasn't that he still have a full set like 15 yrs ago?

[remote monolith]

true but still, 15 years is a long time

well either he died or he becomes the new avatar of Sobek and ascended into godhood

[autumn sorrel]

Shame that they failed to capture him, it would be glorious and funny if he somehow still live on captivity and defy all odd

[manic latch]

Mighty human consumer

[autumn sorrel]

I prefer the latter

[remote monolith]

wont' even be surprised

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, thinking about that, Gustave is like recent one but have ever any croc before ever grow to that size and we got the remain to prove?

I am thinking about modern-ish, not paleo yet

[remote monolith]

there's Lolong, the largest crocodile ever captured from like, 2013

iirc he maxed 6+ish meter

there were some claims from the 1900s of 7 to 8 meter long crocs but how much of this is reality and how much is racist British big game hunters exaggerating stuff to spook people back in London is up to you

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, but I am thinking of Biblical kind, the kind of encouter that go into book like some kind of Avatar of Sobek or misidentify as wyrm that we can prove to be croc instead

[remote monolith]

not that I'm aware of I'm afraid

at least we do know Nile crocodiles like Gustave likes to eat people partly because Ancient Egyptians loved to dump people into a bunch of crocodiles

and we got healthy evidence of prehistoric crocodiles snacking on our hominid ancestors

[autumn sorrel]

What with human as diet make animal grow bigger? First the Croc, Nile fishes and Indian Catfish

[remote monolith]

nah iirc Gustave was just a freak of nature in size, and because of that he was too slow to attack regular croc preys, so he went for hippos and humans because neither are particularly fast

the catfish though

yeaaaaaaah

[autumn sorrel]

I remember Jeremy Wade spent like yrs trying to catch that one and the one he caught isn't even the biggest or the one that he was orginally set out to catch

[remote monolith]

yeah I remember that

freaky stuff

[junior trench]

Mfw his show ended because they ran out of stuff to catch

[autumn sorrel]

Honestly, not a bad end, the man literally run out of challenge and he doesn't stick around to do mediocre content

[maiden citrus]

noooooo

[spring briar]

Yeah

Hes lost

[manic latch]

[tawny lava]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-krabs-so-sad-small-violin-spongebob-gif-17423788

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAuhLPJAfkM

[upper oar]

Question what ship do you think is mostly likely responsible for the friendly fire at Iwo Jima maybe Washington since she was already providing fire support there?

[runic ermine]

Looks like I missed something

[tawny lava]

Nothing of worth tbh

[manic latch]

Good

You have high urge to bring up current events

[runic ermine]

Austro-hungarian post card

[tawny lava]

[manic latch]

Content milkers

[rapid junco]

Clickbaity

[steel rapids]

Bruh moment

[autumn sorrel]

Imagine Krem making YouTube content, it all gonna be Soviet shipbuilding program

[fierce sparrow]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/368244534578118658/1086722679190593758/BurningMurmory.gif

[steel rapids]

[alpine onyx]

One video for each rivet

[autumn sorrel]

Unironically, Krem did that when he compare the different in riveting style in shipbuilding once

[alpine onyx]

Static and dynamic stress on battleship rivets: an international comparison

[tawdry hazel]

Krem shipbuilding is peak

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1788926162237788370

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1945, Marine pilot Bob Klingman used the propeller of his Corsair to chop off the tail of a Japanese plane. Because his guns had frozen in the high altitude, he turned his fighter into a buzzsaw to down the enemy. With damaged blades, he still managed to fly back to base.

Twitter · May 10, 2024, 1:36 PM

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1788984176735076564

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1982 during the Falklands War, HMS Sheffield became the first Royal Navy ship lost to enemy action since WWII when she sank six days after being hit by an Exocet missile fired by an Argentine aircraft. 20 men were killed and another 26 injured in the attack.

Twitter · May 10, 2024, 5:27 PM

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1789064962729513283

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1967, USS Walker (DD-517) collided with Soviet destroyer Besslednyy when the Soviets attempted to approach USS Hornet in the Sea of Japan. Both ships suffered minor damage. The following day, the Walker collided with Krupnyy-class destroyer 025 as the Soviets again tried…

Twitter · May 10, 2024, 10:48 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdq72rP3AsE

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym41Iz68j4s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCbHpJShoXk

[shrewd pecan]

K1 prototype

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1789348377789976891

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1945, USS Bunker Hill (CV-17) was struck by two kamikaze within 30 seconds during the Battle of Okinawa. The resulting explosions and fires killed 393 sailors and wounded another 264. The heavily damaged carrier managed to return to the U.S. for repairs.

Twitter · May 11, 2024, 5:34 PM

[lapis delta]

@spring briar my main point is: Gascogne class was a much better ship and looks better aswell, despite having the same disadvantage regarding the shells and armor.
I don't mean the armor layout, I mean the steel itself.
For most situations, Italian steel was the best, for long-range engagements, the bits were the best and for close quarters, the German steel was the best, the French just have a worse type of steel, resulting from the lack of matallurgy expertise.
I just don't like the Richelieu class and think French ships in general are.... Weirdly designed and look rather... Ugly from an aesthetic point of view, but that's just personal taste

[spring briar]

the design change to Gascogne was mostly a return to a more conventional turret layout, and for the better AA arcs
the steel itself I explained already

"lack of metallurgy experience" for France got to be the worst argument I've ever heard considering what they actually achieved in the field of metallurgy

you not liking the Richelieu class is perfectly fine

but saying french ships in general looking ugly is just a blanket statement

[grave ravine]

lmao source for these wild ass claims about steel quality

[lapis delta]

This says world war 1 era Krupp steel

[grave ravine]

KC n/A was just worse than either French WW2 face hardened steel or Terni face hardened

[lapis delta]

Nvm, I read wrong

[spring briar]

quick point about the armor in other navies
Italian facehardened (for vertical armor) was indeed probably some of the best steel in WW2
but the homogeneous armor was just ok

[spring briar]

WW1 era krupp face depth

British armor had a widely varying quality but was overall very good sure

[grave ravine]

there was massive variation in the quality of Krupp KC n/A steel

[spring briar]

not gonna say british steel was the best though considering this variety in quality

and the tendency to mix steel qualities in ships

[grave ravine]

because the goobers at Krupp were still using test specs from the 1890s

[spring briar]

mostly because they were using non capped shells for armor tests

also saying that German armor was best for close quarters is?

maybe you mean the layout?

which would still be a questionable statement

considering they could've done a lot better

[grave ravine]

from Okun on British FH

[spring briar]

yeap

still fine

[lapis delta]

It's the depth of hardening.
British steel had a deeper hardened part, making it more suited toward longer ranges due to the velocity having time to bleed off, making it less likely to penetrate that hard surface.
German armor had a thin hardened layer (as the text says), which made it more suited towards close quarters due to the lessened chance of large shrapnel and better deformation, which is good for slowing down the shell, so it won't penetrate entirely or will be stopped by another layer of armor.

[spring briar]

in dromeosaurus' post it literally says that British FH had a thinner FH layer (15 vs 35%)

German armor ideology is having a belt that decaps and slows down the shell
which then hits the deck slope and then hopefully doesn't penetrate

the FH 320mm armor followed by a 100mm homogeneous deck slope is not ideal for this

[grave ravine]

I mean I don't think that was the purposeful armor ideology, but thats how it would have worked in practice

I think they just somehow thought the 320mm belt would be enough

(its not)

[spring briar]

no that's literally the ideology

this is why they thinned the belt on the H class

and thickened the slope

[grave ravine]

oh wait yeah forgot about that

actual goobers

[spring briar]

because a belt that thick will decap the shell regardless

and slow it down a lot when the shell hits at a sufficient angle

[grave ravine]

the deck being homogenous means you aren't even getting a lot of the benefit from decapping

[spring briar]

ideally they should've gone with a thinner homogeneous belt and then a FH (thin depth) deck slope

but this would make the ship vulnerable to heavy cruisers when close enough

[grave ravine]

I mean its worth noting that for all the talk about Hiei, I don't believe Hiei's main belt was ever actually penned by 8" gunfire

the main damaging 8" hits were to the steering

[spring briar]

Hiei also has a complete patchwork armor setup

So entirely possible that an 8” SHS finds its way trough a set of thinner layers

And iirc Hiei was only shot with the older 8”

(Not 8” SHS)

Which were worse at penetrating anyways

I should probably look into that

[maiden citrus]

and incorrect

[spring briar]

Beloved

For you

[maiden citrus]

delicious

[spring briar]

I love her

[junior jacinth]

🫡

[junior jacinth]

https://youtu.be/qP8wCavvPi8?si=FBX54KMMmqKKKxRs

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1789435248347894003

[manic latch]

Yup

Happened to Soviet deals

They were asking countries for purchase of armor

Germany Said they can't give their BB grade armor since they were already under shortage of it

But offered to give lower quality batches

But when Soviets looked into their quality, it was much below the standard of Soviets compared to batches they themselves refused to use

Which shows the low test specs of Krupp for armor quality

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEi3QijKrCI

[manic latch]

https://vxtwitter.com/Tank_Archives/status/1789761361536335889?t=zKsNq79mVU-yV7OAPanWCQ&s=19

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1789765809507639707

[steel rapids]

That looks like a combination of Marder 3 and the smol Soviet tank destroyer that i forgor it's name

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1789792732862386596

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

USNI Archives Photo of the Week 
 
Happy Mother's Day!
"Chaplain Albert's Mother's Day Service on the quarterdeck of the USS New Mexico (BB-40), 9 May 1926"
Credit: Our Navy, Inc - USNI Photo Archives

Need help with research? Email us at [e-mail] for assistance today!

Twitter · May 12, 2024, 11:00 PM

[runic ermine]

Next war thunder premium

[steel rapids]

One RPG and they are fucked

[steel rapids]

Oh pls i don't want to throw my Dollars in there

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt5t84Z7u_I

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1789719323826684374

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

A mother sent President Truman $10 and asked that it be used to pay for a birthday cake for her son in the Navy. Truman sent the request to the sailor's CO, who then had his cooks bake a big cake. Remember: Your mom will go to the top of the chain of command for you.
#MothersDay

Twitter · May 12, 2024, 6:08 PM

[halcyon coyote]

https://twitter.com/OliverJia1014/status/1789934853271519550?t=qFvOD6yq-x-5MTxtSZfMTw&s=19

Oliver Jia (オリバー・ジア) (@OliverJia1014) on X

Huge find for lost media and military history enthusiasts.

They’ve found new color footage of the Japanese battleship Yamato shot on March 19, 1945 by the U.S. military. No one knew its whereabouts for nearly 80 years.

It’s incredible we’re still discovering new WWII material.

Twitter · May 13, 2024, 8:24 AM

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYWwyzEt-hc

[versed tree]

vive le fran

[frozen kestrel]

I think I found a pretty rare photo of Bismarck

According to the Reddit post that I found this in, this was taken right before she left Norway

[steel rapids]

Nice finally a rare photo of bisco again

The only photo i see is the one taking from Prinz Eugen

[frozen kestrel]

Like, I have NEVER seen this photo before two days ago

[alpine onyx]

Not sure if I've seen it before

But the fitting would match that being within the first few days of Rhine Exercise

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OyBjC8LnBc

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1790225210374832471

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1862, Robert Smalls and several other slaves commandeered the transport CSS Planter and escaped Confederate controlled waters to turn the ship over to the Union Navy. His efforts helped persuade Abraham Lincoln to permit African-Americans to enlist in Union forces.

Twitter · May 14, 2024, 3:38 AM

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCpvWcAO6yI

[junior jacinth]

https://youtu.be/aA0wB3d7MgE?si=yS3zaqffmGu593or

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1790435255905562922
https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1790435258594197874

[steel rapids]

Wtf

[naive crag]

Better resolution.
It's Saratoga/Lexington's guns at battery Brodie in Hawaii

[frozen kestrel]

What year was the photo taken?

[naive crag]

Couldn't find a date for those two specifically.
Most pics of those batteries are dated summer of '42 (when they were finished) to '43. They stopped being used in '44 and were scrapped in '48.

While looking, I found that the drum in the background is actually a disguise for the radar antenna.

[fierce sparrow]

https://fxtwitter.com/sabotpetal/status/1790494303942258908

[wintry moat]

That's cool

Kinda puts into perspective how MASSIVE these things really are

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot9-H0tyzCE

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz4tS7Les38

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1790740403831927036
https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1790740406843462079

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD 1935, 52-year-old William Halsey became became the oldest person to earn naval aviator's wings. RADM Ernest King had offered him command of the carrier USS Saratoga if he took an air observer course, but he chose to complete the aviator course to better understand pilots.

Twitter · May 15, 2024, 1:45 PM

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

While in flight school, Halsey made a mistake and had to wear a medal designating him as "The Flying Jackass" which he later kept in his cabin on USS Saratoga. Whenever he wanted to bawl someone out, the medal reminded him that he was not perfect

Twitter · May 15, 2024, 1:45 PM

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1790893744834973999

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

Mahan-class destroyer USS Drayton (DD-366) was nicknamed "The Blue Beetle" after the ship was painted with the experimental Measure 1B "sapphire blue" camouflage scheme in 1941. The Drayton earned 11 battle stars during WWII.
#WarshipWednesday

Twitter · May 15, 2024, 11:55 PM

[flint mesa]

DAMN SHE T H I C C

[naive crag]

Tennessee-class my beloved.
The only US BB's that couldn't fit through the Panama Canal

[spring briar]

[maiden citrus]

like em round

[spring briar]

[visual rover]

15 May 2024 Royal Netherlands Navy Frigate “HNLMS Tromp F-803” visit Jakarta, Indonesia

[steel rapids]

Panzershrek tactics: get a panzerfaust you idiot

[pure zephyr]

Was there ever a world War 2 operation called operation serpent?

[shrewd pecan]

Closest you’re getting is 90s Somalia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gothic_Serpent

[visual rover]

https://youtu.be/UaHj5vXM0B4?si=oxfeQZTaW83Ud2Mm

[torn dome]

Tell me more about Brennus and its history.

[autumn sorrel]

Pre Dread or?

[torn dome]

Pre dreadnought first, since IIRC, it was basis for Charles Martel battleship.
IDK about the Heavy cruiser version tho

[remote monolith]

Brennus the Gaulish chieftain or Brennus the battleship?

[rough pewter]

And which Bri'ish ship equip Single barrel 113mk4 gun mount?

I only see a Twin barrel gun mount version

[spring briar]

Brennus can be considered to be the first real pre dreadnought
she had 3 centreline mounted 340mm smokeless powder guns
compared to the other condenders for first pre dreadnought (the Royal Sovereigns)
which were using black powder

[autumn sorrel]

@eternal veldt do you have Janes book about artillery?

Hmm, anyone here have knowledge about Soviet Artillery organization early cold war?

[eternal veldt]

Only fighting ships, not the artillery.

What exactly are you looking for?

[autumn sorrel]

I need info about how Soviet organize their D-74 field gun and D-20 Howitzer

[eternal veldt]

I don't think Jane's will cover that - the book is on naval systems.

[autumn sorrel]

Like, are they regulate to Corp level artillery or Divisional?

[eternal veldt]

You need a book about soviet army doctrine, not a book on artillery

[autumn sorrel]

One of the sources I am looking into mentioned “Jane’s pocket book of towed artillery”

[eternal veldt]

No luck on my end. You might have to try another source.

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, all I can find is ww2 era organization.

[manic latch]

Yup

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1791468227165389064

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1987, USS Stark (FFG-31) was hit by 2 Exocet missiles fired by an Iraqi aircraft. 37 sailors were killed and another 21 were wounded. Iraq claimed the pilot mistook the frigate for an Iranian tanker. The crew's valiant damage control efforts saved the ship from sinking.

Twitter · May 17, 2024, 1:58 PM

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1791526624908767540

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

In 1978, a junk dealer bought some Navy surplus for $36.50. When the Navy realized they had sold 3 classified anti-torpedo devices, they offered to buy them back for $200. The dealer demanded $150,000. The Navy later said the devices were "voluntarily returned."
#FunFactFriday

Twitter · May 17, 2024, 5:50 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoZexC7M4hM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1791593968162979845

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

The muzzle blast from one of USS Iowa's 16-inch guns makes a perfect powder puff as her number two turret opens up in support of United Nations Ground Forces on Korea's west coast in 1952.
#FirepowerFriday

Twitter · May 17, 2024, 10:17 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1791622955492909258

[steel rapids]

It still very controversial and the war hasn't end yet it was just a cease fire

[runic ermine]

True. People tend to forget that part

[fierce sparrow]

https://fxtwitter.com/ChungTzuW/status/1791622144884887630

[autumn sorrel]

The story behind that SPG is wild

[humble jewel]

Shame they didn't leave her there as some sort of landmark. We will never see Murm again 😔

[humble jewel]

This is why I love battleships

[shrewd pecan]

still crazy to me that the Soviets were operating all gun cruisers

into the 90s

like of the 14 ships of the Sverdlov class

only 1 received a S-75

and two received Osa's during their conversions to command ships

rest of them

were entirely 1950s vintage with no modern CIWS or missiles added

[grave ravine]

Those are both pretty awful missiles too, Volkhov-M in particular was just really bad

[manic latch]

Navalized S-75 was deemed too dangerous for planes irrc

Since the liquid fuel aspect of it

So it stayed on single sverd as test

[shrewd pecan]

makes sense

still

all gun cruisers serving into the 80s and early 90s

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0REEx7hGrw&ab_channel=RoyalAustralianNavy

HMAS Anzac has been formally decommissioned after a long and illustrious career including being the first Australian warship to fire its guns in anger since the Vietnam war in 2003

her replacement wont enter service until the 2030s

[manic latch]

Battleships: Hi

Did you know why 2 Iowas retired other than budget reason in 90s?

Navy promised congress they would find a replacement for 406mm guns

Which would become the Zumwalt's 155mm

Now that's dead, wonder what will happen

[shrewd pecan]

the

155 MMs from hell

combined with the mismanagement of zumwalt

[manic latch]

Only solution

Marines would be in love with this

[shrewd pecan]

all they had to do was just make better rounds for the 127

[grave ravine]

The 5"/62 is what the navy wanted to put on Zumwalt, but without the buy being slashed even the AGS probably wouldn't have been that problematic

[manic latch]

[grave ravine]

VGAS was so silly

[autumn sorrel]

Drome, you are bit knowledgeable on US artillery, why did US opted for powder bag charge for their gun-howitzer instead of cartridge? I find that the practice to use a small priming cartridge to firing the gun is a bit weird.

[grave ravine]

Not sure, thats not something I have looked into

[visual rover]

18 May 2024 the netherlands frigate “HNLMS Tromp F-803” leave Jakarta, Indonesia sail world travel to ‘RIMPAC 2024 (Rim of the Pacific 2024)’ training with allied naval

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju2kmRHCe-o

[humble jewel]

Nah wtf is that

[autumn sorrel]

Arsenal ship, modern day “battleship”

[humble jewel]

How far the term "battleship" has fallen 😔

[autumn sorrel]

Seeing that some Frigate is borderline Destroyer in tonnage

[humble jewel]

Destroyers going full on cruisers

Cruisers gettting smaller

What a timeline

[autumn sorrel]

They already doing Cruiser mission profile

[humble jewel]

[unborn pewter]

street vendor selling peanuts or smth during jakarta bomb attack c. 2016

if this doesnt count as history idk what it is

[junior trench]

in what era

[autumn sorrel]

Cold War era and after

[junior trench]

easier adjustment of powder charges and simplified handling

[autumn sorrel]

I know that 105mm still use Cartridge and single piece ammunition but why not like Russian and use cartridge for heavier calibre

[junior trench]

105mm is separate cased with adjustable charge

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah but Soviet can also do the same with their cartridge desgin

[junior trench]

by reaching into the case and pulling out charges

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, something like that

[junior trench]

and then you still need to manhandle and dispose of the casings

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, but isn’t also create an effect where it tight seal the gas?

[junior trench]

it is one method of doing so

it is not the only way to

[autumn sorrel]

Do they ever study into using casing?

[junior trench]

almost certainly, but whatever notional advantages were present didn't outweigh the disadvantages of both cased charges and completely changing the artillery park and ammunition stocks

[autumn sorrel]

In your opinion, does using the small cartridge to ignite the powder charges have any downside?

[junior trench]

it is an extra step in gun drill, in the same way clearing away spent casings is for cased ammunition

you're also a bit off on there ever being a transition tbh

by which I mean bagged charge for 155mm has been the standard ever since 155mm even entered US service via the French

circa 1917/1918

[autumn sorrel]

Schneider gun, I know

Weird bc Russian also received Schneider gun but they apparently go with British caliber and adopt the casing

[subtle prawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1791827625662386407

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1791869061652984241

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 2001, the French Navy's flagship FS Charles de Gaulle entered active service, becoming the first nuclear-powerer aircraft carrier outside of the U.S. Navy. This is FS Charles de Gaulle with the world's first nuclear carrier, USS Enterprise.

Twitter · May 18, 2024, 4:30 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_OgjuPVdvQ

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1792039218488717483

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

When the Army began to relieve Marines on Guadalcanal in 1942, they landed with trucks full of food. Spotting an opportunity, a Marine yelled "Air raid!" As soldiers ran for cover, hungry Marines poured out of the jungle and drove off with the trucks of food.
#SeaStorySaturday

Twitter · May 19, 2024, 3:46 AM

[steel rapids]

Hunger games be like

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1792245116725264818

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#RIP Royal Navy pilot Cdr Nigel 'Sharkey' Ward who has passed away at the age of 80. Ward commanded the Sea Harriers of 801 Naval Air Squadron during the Falklands War in 1982. He flew more than 60 missions during the conflict, scoring three air-to-air victories.

Twitter · May 19, 2024, 5:25 PM

[supple sandal]

Seeing green Abrams and green Bradley is quite unsettling to me

[fierce sparrow]

https://fxtwitter.com/JonHawkes275/status/1792501947531997473

[mental tapir]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/758215756990906398/1242087393612398632/image-25.png?ex=664c8f87&is=664b3e07&hm=fcdd07b289e38974fb9e9d6ed37f77480b37004769718e7c3996cc7711fc6d84&

Apparently the French 138.6mm guns were terrible irl, yet they're made UR in-game anyways

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_55-50_m1929.php

[eternal veldt]

Shinano, a carrier with absolutely pitiful service history, made it as UR

Rarity is arbitrary and the dependent is Manjuu

Or you know, Unzen, with a turret that didnt leave the sketching board

[mental tapir]

At least her planes are SR at best

[mental tapir]

Fair

[spring briar]

Lots of AL gears with that problem

[tawny lava]

To be fair if one frech destroyer had to be UR, it would have been mogador

That being said, that doesn't stop manjuu fram making other members of other destroyer classes into different rarities

Which honestly i don't mind

[mental tapir]

It was a gripe I saw occasionally, that the Mogadors were UR while the Capitani Romanis were SR

[tawny lava]

Indeed

But again, they can still make a couple of the other ones UR

[mental tapir]

When historically the CRs were better in about every way

[mental tapir]

That's true, YT II and Laffey II proved that

[tawny lava]

[mental tapir]

Unless it's American Exceptionalism™️ striking again

[tawny lava]

Lol

[mental tapir]

What would be the UR DD of the Regia Marina if not the CRs?

[tawny lava]

It's only really them

[mental tapir]

Oof

[tawny lava]

The next most capable were the Navigatori class, which we don't yet have i belive

And immediately post war italy operated domestic models preceding the CRs, and foreign models

[manic latch]

Has to be paper or something cold war

If CRs can't be

Mogador being UR was bit stupid ngl

Since Tashkent and CRs ain't as mentioned

Tho both is Italian origin so

Italy suffers smh

[tawny lava]

Nevermind, we have two, both purple (Navigatori)

So yeah, if any other would be UR, it'd be a paper design

[spring briar]

Only stupid thing is a world where they made the decision to not make the CR’s UR

[obtuse palm]

Yeah, unless they plan to give the CR's retrofits

[mental tapir]

Akizukis and Tribals also aren't UR, but they have smaller guns

[obtuse palm]

Which is basically just AA destroyers based on their post war service

[runic ermine]

Now that I think about it, due to popular culture we're used to seeing them in desert camo

[runic ermine]

Hadia could be a UR due to how famous her and her commading officer are

[tawny lava]

And god forbid if Jhonston comes into the game, instant UR (and they better)

[eternal veldt]

Retrofits do not necessarily change rigging

San Diego Retrofit and Laffey retains the same rigging after their retrofit

It just simply that putting CRs as SSR is bad taste, same as Impero

[runic ermine]

Impero should have a BB form

[eternal veldt]

Maybe, but there's potential as a carrier platform

as a V-1 platform nonetheless

[obtuse palm]

Likely SSR given Nubian and Jervis though

[eternal veldt]

Class is irrelevant

Soyuz is UR, because Manjuu said so

[chilly osprey]

Capitani as San Giorgio-class

[eternal veldt]

shhh Phoenix

or else Chateaurenault

[spring briar]

[tawny lava]

I'm starting to agree with you all honesty

[chilly osprey]

I mean, if Soyuz exists

The CMdO are also there for better DDs

Unless those are already in the game

[spring briar]

Nope

[tawny lava]

I totally know what that stands for

[eternal veldt]

Comandanti Medaglie d'Oro

[chilly osprey]

Might also be able to squeeze in some post-war designs depending on what the most modern ship in the game is (I have no idea).

[eternal veldt]

It's Albion, I think. Centaur class carrier.

Or the Anshans, if you count their...DDG refits.

[spring briar]

Does this translate to golden medal commanders?

[tawny lava]

Yup

[eternal veldt]

Really, though, just sit tight, we already have news of Napoli/Venezia/Brindisi arriving

[chilly osprey]

The whole class is named after RM personnel who received the Gold Medal for Military Valor (MOVM). They were a wartime design meant to incorporate lessons learned early in the war and featured heavier ASuW and AA armament than prior DDs.

[eternal veldt]

Venezia enough to give Phoenix a heart attack

[spring briar]

Wtf is this

[tawny lava]

I'd rather have real ships than paper design

[eternal veldt]

Scipione Africano is still out there

[chilly osprey]

I mean, they were laid down, just never completed.

[tawny lava]

Not the CMdO

[chilly osprey]

And their hull form went on to be the basis of post-war Italian DDs

[tawny lava]

I mean venezia, napoli and the like

[eternal veldt]

We can't even have a Cavour refit at the moment

[eternal veldt]

It's confirmed regardless, and the first rainbow for the Italians

[chilly osprey]

Ah, yes

Fuck those

God WG and its consequences

Fucking

[tawny lava]

Don't care in the slightest about those

[chilly osprey]

Morons

[spring briar]

A bit like the Le Hardis

[tawny lava]

Amen

[eternal veldt]

How bad is Napoli, if I may ask?

[chilly osprey]

Their paper designs for Italy are the stupidest fucking things on the planet

[eternal veldt]

I know the catapults are a bunch of nonsense with their placement

[spring briar]

Actually do we have a CMdO in WoWs?

[eternal veldt]

the tier 8, I think

[tawny lava]

Nope

[chilly osprey]

I don't know. I really stopped keeping track of that game

[tawny lava]

Actually kind of

[eternal veldt]

and the

fucking

37mm armoured box

[spring briar]

[chilly osprey]

I was too demoralized to keep caring after watching what happened to the Italian lines

[tawny lava]

The tier 8 isn't even named after one of the CMdO's, pretty sure it's something else

[spring briar]

Oh they gave an Italian DD as the T6 french torpilleur

You’re justified in leaving

[eternal veldt]

Yea, no, it isn't CMdO

Maelstrale Potenziato

[tawny lava]

Yup

[spring briar]

[tawny lava]

Proposed alternative to the soldati and oriani class

[eternal veldt]

and a stupid....

Italian Tashkent...

Peak imagination, WG

[tawny lava]

I hate them so much at times

Prioritizing napkin drawings over actual ships

[chilly osprey]

Wow.

So they don't even have a CMdO

I completely forgot

Shows how much I memory-holed that game

[tawny lava]

Sad

[eternal veldt]

just..breathe this shit in.

[tawny lava]

Can't blame you

[chilly osprey]

iirc their version of the Maestrale Potenziato was bastardized too

[tawny lava]

MY EYES

[chilly osprey]

For gameplay reason

[eternal veldt]

yeap, guns were different

[tawny lava]

Is it even in the game?

[chilly osprey]

iirc they also have it two triple torpedo banks

[tawny lava]

Just put in the real things wg fuck me

[chilly osprey]

When the actual design only had one

[tawny lava]

You really want to add fake ships just sell them as premiums

[eternal veldt]

That's pretty much what they are doing now

Honestly, I lost hope after seeing their Vittorio Veneto, with basically nilch changes except the bow star and a very bastardized AA loadout

And just to make sure you will see the Roma again, they did it again to the Spanish Littorio

[spring briar]

With the highest damage 15” shells iirc

[tawny lava]

Want to talk about the new spanish t9 veneto with 5' 38s and quad bofors?

[spring briar]

Absolutely not

[eternal veldt]

The spanish high tier ships in general are pretty abominable, so no thanks indeed

[chilly osprey]

The

WHAT

[tawny lava]

I'm sorry 🫡

[eternal veldt]

He's already seen Sicilia, I don't think much will scare him

[chilly osprey]

Wow

[eternal veldt]

and I think you may be mixing these two up

[chilly osprey]

Oh my god

That's even worse

[tawny lava]

Oh yeah

[spring briar]

[tawny lava]

I was only right about the bofors

No wait

[chilly osprey]

"No, Phoenix, you can't make a Littorio tier IX. It wouldn't work. You're being stupid. Coping pasta fanboy"

[eternal veldt]

Those aren't bofors, it's the German 30mm, I think

the quad bofors is on Sicilia, which is....well.

[tawny lava]

Yeah yeah, i got confused again

[eternal veldt]

Phoenix, things have changed, hard, and probably for a worse

[tawny lava]

Somehow that's less cursed than the spanish thing to me

[eternal veldt]

an Iowa is now perfectly fine at tier 10 because of a consumable known as "Combat Instructions", basically just cuts your consumables, reloads, etc. all down.

[chilly osprey]

...

[eternal veldt]

With the funny button, anything can be 1~2 tiers higher up, really.

[chilly osprey]

What the fuck

[eternal veldt]

That's not all

[spring briar]

Yep

Wisconsin no less

[tawny lava]

Wg with literally just a tier 8 lyon moment

[eternal veldt]

Some type of combat instructions reduces your dispersion and increases armour penetration

Which, as you can see, makes zero sense

[spring briar]

[ivory ridge]

The 2 we have ingame were the ones that did most during the war, having the uncomplete ones as UR is just lmao

[chilly osprey]

You're joking\

PLease

PLease

[eternal veldt]

I wish I were

[chilly osprey]

tell me that's not a thing

What the sweet

[REDACTED]

https://tenor.com/view/demolition-man-facepalm-john-spartan-oh-no-stressed-out-gif-17652565

[tawny lava]

Fair

[chilly osprey]

https://tenor.com/view/germano-mosconi-nonèpossibile-dio-cane-gif-21765301

[tawny lava]

LMAO GERMANO MOSCONI MOMENT

[eternal veldt]

and that's why I wanted to see what's wrong with Napoli, in case it comes

which....sarcasticat conveniently pinged you on Kingpin's server.

[chilly osprey]

For WoWs? You better believe it

Anywho

I low key wonder if this is another idea they pulled from my RM BB tech tree thread

[eternal veldt]

I'll nab a picture if you're interested

[chilly osprey]

Because I did advocate for a tier IX Littorio

[spring briar]

[chilly osprey]

And I'm 95% sure they stole the SAP idea from that thread, even if they gave it to the cruisers, because I was told that SAP was absolutely not on the cards by people on the inside, and then, bam, not long after...

[eternal veldt]

Oh, and one more thing - The Italian practice of going up the caliber and not exceeding 10 guns - is there a source for that?

[ivory ridge]

Victoria doesnt have the funny button, she has the uh

2 different AP shell

[chilly osprey]

Yeah, I saw, haven't had a chance to review Napoli as I forgot the details.

[ivory ridge]

Entirely different mechanic

[eternal veldt]

Got you covered

[tawny lava]

Hedious looking thing

[ivory ridge]

Have you seen the lesta italian delaware with candy cane

Hilarious

[tawny lava]

Oh god

I need to see that now

[eternal veldt]

These two as far as I can find would be the suspicious spots

Catapult seems to be inspired by Cavour/Cesare's early catapult attempt (and subsequent removal due to getting in the way of firing the secondary batteries), and the quarterdeck, well....you're a stronger advocate than me.

[tawny lava]

I

Just

No words

[eternal veldt]

That's just Lesta being Lesta, really

[tawny lava]

At least lesta shows it could be even worse

Which is not saying much in all fairness

[spring briar]

please tell me this is a photoshop

[eternal veldt]

Just...

They made a Chinese Yamato

[spring briar]

[tawny lava]

Next up: french GK

[tawny lava]

[spring briar]

those are krem 457's aren't they

[chilly osprey]

I think there was at least one book or paper that discussed it, though I forget exactly where. And unfortunately I'm not at home so I can't go trawling through my sources.

But it is something that becomes fairly self-evident once you go through all their post-WWI designs. They essentially kept main gun counts between 6 and 10 guns for pretty much everything.

[tawny lava]

It's so hideous it's not even funny

[eternal veldt]

I believe so, yes.

[eternal veldt]

No problem - could always use the source if you ever find it - and yes, the pattern is noticeable, but it's better to argue on solid grounds.

[eternal veldt]

Honestly, I wouldn't even know where to start

[spring briar]

that's hilariously bad

[tawny lava]

You could write a book about how wrong all of this is and you'd still need 2 sequels

[eternal veldt]

I mean, it's a kitbash, let's leave it at that

[tawny lava]

Kitbash is an apt description

[eternal veldt]

Ah, finally clicked together, Napoli's superstructure is a scaled down UP.41

Small wonder why it looked familiar

[obtuse palm]

What is the outboard barbette doing LMAO

[eternal veldt]

Its trying its best okay

[spring briar]

he longs for the pre dreadnought era

to be on a sponson

[obtuse palm]

Also are those quad 20 mm or 37 mm?

[eternal veldt]

57

[ivory ridge]

No but it's simply a test ship for now and not an actual premium

For what? No clue

[spring briar]

awful

[obtuse palm]

Quad 57 mm on an AA gun like that sounds like an absolute nightmare to try to make it have sufficient elevation and transverse speeds

[eternal veldt]

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_57mm-81_zif-71.php Well... the soviets had it. Not great, but it was there.

[obtuse palm]

Ah right, Soviet had such a gun

[chilly osprey]

Ok, so my immediate thoughts from this and the data in GM3D are;

This is clearly the larger (22,000-ton std) Ansaldo cruiser, given the 26,892-ton displacement and the 240,000 shp propulsion plant - though top speed here is 35.5 knots rather than 37 knots, because naturally the Italians would not be able to achieve design speed in the same way that Stalinium-hulled warships powered by the spirit of Stalin would.

The secondary armament makes no sense. The design for the Soviets was equipped with 4x2 130mm & 6x2 100mm, I can think of no reason the Italians, on a hull of this size, would move to 152mm instead of 135mm as was done with other designs of this displacement range (notably, the Duilio-class. If there is a mixed battery, we should expect 4x2 135/45 and while 90mm arrangement is hard to predict without having a the profile of the original design, probably similar to the Duilio-class with singles (10x1) or an 8x2 arrangement if using the 90mm twins.

The 37mm armored quads are just dumb, they're a design that was dead for half a decade by the time the 90mm twins were being planned, and on a design late enough to have the 90mm twins and the 20mm sextuple mounts, these armored quads should be replaced by either the 37mm quad planned for the CMdO's, or 65/64's.

[eternal veldt]

I figured as much. Was commenting earlier how 254 + 152 would just mix spotting up.

Anything odd about the catapult? I find it highly unlikely it would be placed there considering it basically blocks the 90mm to some extent. But, as you said, the original specifications did call for 2 catapults, and I can't think of anywhere else to place them.

[chilly osprey]

If it's two catapults - unless they're trying to stick a hangar under the no.3 turret like on the Littorio-class, amidships makes the most sense. It should just result in a wider spacing of the 90mm turrets - I'd just take Abruzzi's layout as an example.

[eternal veldt]

Hah. So at least not too bad compared to the other Italian Frankensteins. Can't defend the armament, other than gimmicky reasons.

[chilly osprey]

Also, GM3D lists the 254mm guns as being /60's, which is weird. The Italians were looking at 254/55's. But that's minor quibbles versus everything else.

[eternal veldt]

Ah, so that's where they took the missing 5 calibers from my 406/50 Mark 2s

They gave it to the Italians

What an outrageous exchange

[chilly osprey]

XD

[manic latch]

Nah

Their problem was vibrations and overheating irrc

And lack of radar director for each etc

I prefer US's twin 76mms

[manic latch]

Bitch

I knew Soyuz would be UR moment I saw he- I mean Hutten was UR

[tawny lava]

soyuz ur is cool

[obtuse palm]

Well, how do you think they got the guns so light, they had to air cool it, because otherwise it would weigh a fair bit, which meant among other things more complications in cooling it

[manic latch]

"The barrels are cooled by air when firing. Between firings, the barrels were cooled with sea water from a hose with special tips through the gun breech. By the way, such cooling was used in all 45 mm and 57 mm deck installations of the 50s. The electric motors operated on three-phase alternating current 220 V, 50 Hz, since they were designed for the on-board network of destroyers Project 41 and Project 56"

[eternal veldt]

Ah, one more thing. Where did you get /55? McLaughlin doesn't say much, only 254mm.

[obtuse palm]

Such a wack way of cooling down the gun. Also didn't the gun have a high downtime due to the reload cycle as well, like the cooling along put it out of action for like 1.5 min, then the reloading another 2-3 min

[chilly osprey]

I'm assuming they'd be using the 254mm guns the RM was looking at in the mid-1930s and placed on some 'pocket battleship' designs, which were /55's according to O'Hara & Cernuschi.

[obtuse palm]

Just be like everyone and directly watercool the gun

[eternal veldt]

The 17,500 ton one, I take?

or was it 18,500, I don't remember.

[chilly osprey]

17,500 tons for the Pocket BB

And then it also ended up on some cruisers they were looking at trying to export

[manic latch]

Was the case for 37mm

[mossy gorge]

Because I was bored And This is history related, here are 3 legistlative books from the Romanian People’s Republic, dated 1964.

[ivory ridge]

[spring briar]

Krem..

[manic latch]

No

Soyuz was always deserved and hinted to be UR

I always knew

And i was right

I WON

https://tenor.com/view/apocalypsenow-horror-gif-4763006

[ivory ridge]

"deserved"

[manic latch]

Years of teasing

2 times of art rework

The lore importance

All new tech NP discovered

[ivory ridge]

""""""""""""""""Lore importance""""""""""""""""

[manic latch]

Yes

Hence it was her that got access to the crystals first

And it was her cube that was too unstable for normal rigs

That needed a special one

Now Project Dawn is the new focus

And we will see what that is eventually

[ivory ridge]

the lore importance of being a cripple

lol

[sullen canyon]

Wait this is #history not #al-lore

[ivory ridge]

half of this chat is banned from there yeah

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Good times Wolfie

We are all banished from there

Sang, Me, Richel, Undef

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/trollszn123-ivar-vikings-gif-18268155

Ivar was cool I agree

Also I hope Midway class Roosevelt is also cripple

She can have a throne like wheel chair with high tech

Half of CV characters are sitting anyway

[autumn sorrel]

And getting banned from lore

[manic latch]

"You can kill the prophet, but you can't kill the God"

[autumn sorrel]

Are you going Rat route and call yourself Jesus now?

[tawny lava]

Soyuz UR stan 🤝

[manic latch]

Prophet term is older than Jesus

[autumn sorrel]

So, you the Oracle now?

[manic latch]

Yes

[torn dome]

Do we have Spähkreuzer here?

[spring briar]

Felix Schultz kinda

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2024/05/20/attack-submarines-dominate-record-high-36-8-australian-defense-budget

[runic ermine]

Class doesn't = Rarity all the time. Of the richelieu class girls:
Richelieu: SSR
Jean Bart: SSR
Clemenceau: SSR
Gascogne: PR

[crude terrace]

I would love to receive Iowa as a UR

Replace one of her AA with missiles

Make her reflect the 90's retrofit

I would actually accept getting her as a retrofittable SSR

[tawny lava]

All iowas are 100% going to be UR

[crude terrace]

I would hope

[tawny lava]

And they would better

[crude terrace]

But at the same time ship class doesn't always reflect rarity

[tawny lava]

That's also true

[crude terrace]

I love that the turrets on the Yamato class weighed more than an entire Fletcher class DD

[tawny lava]

Yeah that's mad

Didn't stop jhonston tho

[crude terrace]

I could rant about ship classification for hours

Like everything is generally well and dandy until we talk about cruisers and then crap hits the fan almost instantly.

Like for the greater part, BB, DD, SS, CV all make normal logical sense

[tawny lava]

Look at the sumner class, we got elite, SSR, and UR

[crude terrace]

ye

But cruisers are so frustrating to talk about

BM, BC, CB, CA, CL, are all technically within the classification range of "cruiser", at least by our modern definitions

[tawny lava]

It's all a mess

[crude terrace]

At least tacking V onto a classification to make it "aviation" makes enough sense

Even if BBV and SSV are both some failed abortion pipedream

[tawny lava]

Intersting the japanese actually built and emplyed both

[crude terrace]

Yep

Well

The Brits did the submarine first

[tawny lava]

To dismal success, it should be said

[subtle prawn]

Gascogne is effectively an SSR in all but name, if she wasn't released as part of the 2nd WoWS collab and they released her normally, she would almost certainly be that

[crude terrace]

and also attempted INTENTIONALLY to build a BBV at one point before the guy in charge of the Royal Navy shut it down and converted the project into the Lion class

[tawny lava]

I'll never fogive the japanese for what they did to the Ises

[crude terrace]

The IJN's largest failure in converting the Ises to BBVs was they never actually allocated airplanes to them before they got sunk, so the conversion was a moot point

[tawny lava]

And even if they had it's very unlikely they would have been of much use

[crude terrace]

Interestingly a design was proposed to both the US and Soviets

[tawny lava]

They were going to send floatplanes agains an average american formation, it was going to be a slaughter

[crude terrace]

We outright denied it (Kearsarge), and the Soviets looked it over for a couple weeks before denying it

Entertainingly, the ACTUAL USS Kearsarge served during WW1 and was the only US battleship to not be named after a US state

[ivory ridge]

thats 4 golds my dude, you literally picked the worst example possible

[tawny lava]

From what i know the soviets were under the impression that the last two iowas were going to be BBVs

At one point at least

[crude terrace]

I would absolutely LOVE if we got the M-class submarines

Anybody who knows about the 4 M-class would know why they're so funny

M2 was the first SSV

and M1, and M3 all were mounted with a battleship cannon

[tawny lava]

The silliness of those things is legendary

[crude terrace]

12-inch gun on a submarine...

[runic ermine]

They're different rarities tho

[crude terrace]

no

[ivory ridge]

no, they are all gold

[crude terrace]

PR is equal to SSR

[spring briar]

Yes thats gold

[crude terrace]

This is a far better example

Allen M Sumner - SSR
Ingraham - SSR
Laffey II - UR
Cooper - Elite
Bristol - SSR

I mean

Look at the Fletcher class

Though

I don't think of the 19 Fletchers we have, any are above Elite rarity

[chilly osprey]

I mean, it's an inherently very flexible class of ship

So there's lots of ways to sub-categorize them even beyond those

Such as my favorite "all heavy cruisers are light cruisers but not all light cruisers are heavy cruisers"

[tawny lava]

They still go as far down as common, so technically it's still still a valid example

[grave ravine]

Nicholas and Charles Ausburne have gold retrofits if you want to count those

[tawny lava]

Ehhh

In that way, so do the QEs

[grave ravine]

If you want the biggest span though I think its the Kagero class, they have commons all the way to an SSR

[runic ermine]

https://youtu.be/VdiBxXmJMMw?si=wYCuv3bowN-F2CWf

[tawny lava]

Actually no, they only go down to rare

[grave ravine]

shiranui is a common without retrofit

[tawny lava]

Huh

I missed her

[steel rapids]

Britain not have alot of bad reputation in bombing runs during 1944, meanwhile the US sometimes accidentally bomb friendly targets, civilian targets or getting their b17 shredded

[runic ermine]

Dresden being a pretty big example

[steel rapids]

Operation Cobra also

[runic ermine]

Didn't they accidentally kill a general?

I forget his name

Wait him
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesley_J._McNair

[steel rapids]

Yup he was standing outside the trench then he got wreck

[runic ermine]

Cool way of showing the evolution of a country's uniform
https://youtu.be/HBs4JNkmhlU?si=59gxSJmkm0XLl2oT

[steel rapids]

Damn custom build

[runic ermine]

I think he painted them

[steel rapids]

Hm usually people buy from brickmania or something like that

[runic ermine]

Yeah