history

[autumn sorrel]

Are we going back to light tank concept now?

[ivory ridge]

we never even left

[autumn sorrel]

Didn't JDSF have a new light tank based on their type 89 IFV?

[ivory ridge]

just sounds like a tracked type 16

[autumn sorrel]

I saw some JP twitter perk up on something with type 89 hull and type 16 turret

[autumn sorrel]

So Sprut?

[ivory ridge]

Sprut is cringe

[autumn sorrel]

Only cringe if they have to make a paper thin hull bc "muh VDV"

[ivory ridge]

started production in 2005
25 by 2011
none seeing in [redacted]

it's vaporware by now

[autumn sorrel]

Tbf, if it even come close to [REDACTED], it will be extinct in 1 week

[ivory ridge]

sprut join the battlefield
every fpv operator in a 50km range:

https://tenor.com/view/black-guy-blue-eyes-rubbing-head-gif-24402199

[autumn sorrel]

We are in the mass drone warfare age now

[ivory ridge]

anyway about light tanks

depends how you want to classify them

cuz if you include wheels they never stopped being a thing

[autumn sorrel]

I still think Sprut is a good concept, if they make it less specialized for VDV but more for direct fire support of infantry

[ivory ridge]

mayhaps

why did china make so many prototype wheeled light tanks

[autumn sorrel]

Bc Tibet and border with India, you don't really have the road nor the facility to support mass formation of heavy AFV

[ivory ridge]

(this doesnt include vehicles in WT cuz the list was made for possible additions)

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, Bumerang

I know that thing supposed to have a 57mm turret, how would the frame react to the autocannon recoil, I wonder?

Wait, I have an idea

Take a T-55 hull and mate it with 57mm turret for Bumerang

[ivory ridge]

Sadly the bumerang with the 125 has never been built even as a prototype so i had to cross it

But it looks cool so i didn't outright delete it

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, is it possible for Bumerang frame to take Sprut turret?

[ivory ridge]

That was the plan

They just haven't done it

[autumn sorrel]

It will be hilarious if WT make it up

[autumn sorrel]

Strange to think that there might be an alt universe where Russia actually manage to produce and field all of their crazy AFV

I really want to see how it turn out

Imagine, Laser tank

Wait, laser tank would be perfectly fit for anti drone

[manic latch]

Ye

[autumn sorrel]

I love that goofball

[unkempt sedge]

May not have been able to destroy a tank, but will certainly leave the gunner permanently blind.

[manic latch]

That's its purpose

Break all your electronic or optical systems

"There is information to suggest that during testing that the Sanguine’s laser once knocked out a helicopter’s optical system at a range of 6 miles (9.65 km) and disabled the aircraft entirely at 5 miles (8.04 km)."

-Tank Encyclopedia

[unkempt sedge]

Suprised it was not continued post-USSR at some level. The A-60 was at least. I mean Shtora on T-90, but thats not a laser.

[manic latch]

152mm MBT projects such as Object-195 also died with collapse, which I would call more important

[autumn sorrel]

Soviet weapon system, esoteric at conception but somehow make sense in modern warfare

[unkempt sedge]

I agree on that.

[manic latch]

Yup https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drozd

[autumn sorrel]

Shtora isn't blinding anyone but more like try to redirect SACLOS ATGM away from the tank

[manic latch]

invent APS in late 70s

APS slowly becomes popular demand in 20s

[unkempt sedge]

The idea was for them to support Soviet armored assaults and blind enemy optics while their own T-72's and T-80's picked them all off.

That being said. It would have been better puting such a system on a normal T-80 rather than a separate tank.

[manic latch]

You can't

Too large

[unkempt sedge]

You could probably do it with modern day technology. I would assume? 1K17 was 80's tech anyway.

Sorry I do not know much about lasers.

[autumn sorrel]

Shame the only T-80 prototype with Drozd was destroyed, WTF were they thinking sending it?

[unkempt sedge]

Russia doesn't care about it's T-80's anymore. They consider them throwaway and stop gap now. BVM is a stop gap

[manic latch]

It's a very old system with not that hard ability to mount it on a tank

Wouldn't call it museum worthy

[autumn sorrel]

And they are trying to restart the production line bc somehow instead of adding more reverse gear to T-90, start making entirely different tank is more preferable

[manic latch]

There is more reason than reverse

[unkempt sedge]

I was suprised that they even used T-80's at all in [REDACTED]. Even [REDACTED] as far as I know is not using theirs.

[ivory ridge]

what are you even talking about

[strong plank]

yeah uh

[autumn sorrel]

T-80

[ivory ridge]

the BVM is their second most advanced tank and better than all the t72s

[manic latch]

T-90's engine is at end of its power upgrade option

While T-80's gas turbine still has space to be upgraded to 1500hp

Which is the plan

[strong plank]

both sides have been fielding t-72s, and neither are in a position to be very picky

[unkempt sedge]

I agree on that actually. T-80 was IMO always better than T-72.

[autumn sorrel]

Didn't Russia T-80 are Diesel tho?

[manic latch]

No

[ivory ridge]

where the hell are you getting that they dont care about the t80s

like what

[manic latch]

T-84 is I think

She comes from diesel variant

[unkempt sedge]

T-80UD?

[manic latch]

Yup

[ivory ridge]

Im saying that the most modernized t72 is still worse than the most modernized t80

not counting the t90 as a t72 of course

[manic latch]

70s worst mistake was not taking the upgrade for T-80UD

"The Ob. 478M was a more sophisticated model than the Ob. 478. Improvements included the Sistema fire control system, Shatter active protection system, and a 1,500 hp diesel engine. This too was abandoned as it was considered too costly"

That 1500hp engine would be so useful

[autumn sorrel]

Honestly, I pity the Ukr mechanic and Logistical officer, they have so many weapon system from so many source and they can't even do major repair in house anymore

[unkempt sedge]

The perfect tank for Russia at the beginning of the 90's was to have put all the technology thay was used on their early T-90A's (Shtora and the like) onto a T-80 instead. Problem of course was money.

There were T-80's with Shtora however.

[ivory ridge]

the UK

[manic latch]

152mm MBTs was going to fix lot of mistakes of T-72s and 80s, collapse ruined it badly

[strong plank]

POV you’re the polish logistical officer watching the 5th new system roll into inventory this year

[ivory ridge]

poland^

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/poland-brock-lesnar-scream-polska-poland-flag-gif-24793010

[ivory ridge]

oh lmao i missed the word polish in that message

[unkempt sedge]

I agree. Almost all nations now are upgunning anyways.

[ivory ridge]

are they

[strong plank]

lol

[manic latch]

US will likely stick to 120mm for a while

[autumn sorrel]

I think they roll out T-72B3 unofficial mod 2022 but those are still minor modification, hardly a new model

[manic latch]

Unless they desire to bring 140mm back

Germany being drunk and making 130mm

[strong plank]

It depends on what they do with M1E3

[ivory ridge]

but there are BVM obr.2022 as well

[manic latch]

Leclerc...exists

[autumn sorrel]

It still better than Beute Panzer

[ivory ridge]

so the point is moot

[unkempt sedge]

They are. For Germany though the argument has been going back and forth. 130mm or no 130mm.

[strong plank]

My guess is they’ll do what they did with the original M1

[manic latch]

But original had 105mm

[strong plank]

It’ll enter service with one gun, and have the option to be upgunned later

[manic latch]

Hmm

[strong plank]

Esp if both front runner designs have an auto loader as rumored

[unkempt sedge]

Even if some countries are not going to upgun. They are AT LEAST leaving their options open for it from what I've seen and heard.

[strong plank]

I can see the army putting M1E3 into service with the XM360 120mm

And then switching to 140 if NATO decides to standardize

[manic latch]

The CATTB was effectively a modified Abrams with a larger turret housing the abovementioned XM291 gun. The vehicle weighed some 60 tons and had a crew of three men (the loader was removed in favor of the automatic loading mechanism).

Oh interesting

" would fire either standard NATO 120mm rounds or advanced two-piece 140mm kinetic rounds (XM964) or HEAT-MP rounds (XM965)."

It can fire 120mm

[autumn sorrel]

The same way how US wait for NATO to change to new rifle caliber, oh wait, US change to 6.8mm now

[unkempt sedge]

So can I. It still all seems "up in the air" though. I guess we will wait and see.

[manic latch]

Fun fact I think it didn't had gas turbine

But 1470hp diesel

[unkempt sedge]

I love it! Gun elevation though is what would concern me with a barrel that long.

[manic latch]

The gun itself was fully stabilized and could, in both configurations, depress to -10 degrees and elevate to +22 degrees.

[junior trench]

"If you ignore the ways it's worse, it's actually very similar"

is one of the statements of all time

[unkempt sedge]

That quote is spot on 👌

[autumn sorrel]

I take it back, while I want American engine, India prob insist on their own engine that had been develop since the 90s and somehow still no prototype

[manic latch]

India's insistence on domesticity is becoming suicidal

[junior trench]

ish

kinda saving their ass procurement wise for some systems considering their primary import source is having a massive skill issue

[autumn sorrel]

Is bashing DRDO fine in this channle?

[junior trench]

and choosing said primary import source kind of locked them out of many other options

for quite a while

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, but what the possibility of using American engine on SU-27 frame?

[junior trench]

would require redesigning the airframe around the new center of gravity, and thus center of thrust, and possibly center of lift

due to aforementioned weaknesses of the original engine in power density

because a US engine of equivalent power would be smaller

[autumn sorrel]

Difficult but possible?

[unkempt sedge]

The Chinese did it with the J-11. So it is doable.

Of course it was their own engine.

[autumn sorrel]

Wasn't CN use copied Russian engine?

[junior trench]

and a US engine of equivalent size and weight would require its own bag of things to figure out

[manic latch]

Uhhh

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/us-congress-clears-landmark-india-us-fighter-engine-deal-101693418713191.html

I think best engine US allowed was F-414

[junior trench]

of course you can also just slap a new engine in there and hope for the best like China did

[unkempt sedge]

China copied both US and Russian engine designs. The WS-10 is a good example.

[manic latch]

Which would be BAD for Su-27

[junior trench]

and it's generally a case of "close enough to be good enough" considering the similar state of the ChiCom engines to Russian engines at the time

[autumn sorrel]

So they just mash thing in and hope it work?

[junior trench]

WS-10 uses a French engine design as its core

there was some collab with the US on the French side

but it's decidedly a French core

[unkempt sedge]

What I'm getting at is in a way Chinese engines are hybrids of western and Russian engines.

[manic latch]

I trust China for its industry and budget, they just lack from know how and experience

[unkempt sedge]

Exactly. There engines are terrible when compared to both Western and Russian. The progress they made however, is massive when you look at how it was in the 1990's.

It shows how hard developing modern engines are.

[manic latch]

This is their best engine

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_WS-15

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, when the punishment for failure and bad product is execution or gulag, it motivate people quite a lot

[junior trench]

lol

you think you get gulag'd only for doing poorly

step on the wrong toes with a good product?

disappeared and the one you offended claims credit

make a good product but admit you could have done better if only X, Y, or Z?

[autumn sorrel]

Remind me one time that CN set their tank development back a few yrs bc they executed the entire tank designer team for being bourgeois

[junior trench]

disappeared

[strong plank]

Reminds me of Iran

revolution happens
purge much of the military for fear of loyalty to the shah
iran-iraq war happens

[junior trench]

"where did all our professionals go?"

[autumn sorrel]

Iran-Iraq war I argue that was the thing that saved the regime

[strong plank]

Yeah eventually

But it turns out that purging your officer corps is not a recipe for success

[autumn sorrel]

They imprisoned half of the airforce professional pilot with ground crew and some how still dunk on the Iraq airforce

[heady sail]

Same as the Soviets who purged the head engineers of the bureau that was working on the Kronshtadt, 2 times!

[autumn sorrel]

Has it ever been

[strong plank]

Favorite part is when Iraq went to one of the neutral countries and went “hey we heard some Iranian pilots want to defect, can you let them land if they come to you”

And Iran grounded its entire F-14 fleet

[autumn sorrel]

It was Stalin, he ain't care about legitimate reason nor logistical constrain, if he want his Big Battleship, the slaves worker have to deliver

[strong plank]

“I want a big navy”
“Sir we literally can’t produce rivets”
“Did I stutter”

[autumn sorrel]

Iraq could be more card to get Iran gut their military even more but Saddam is competent military wise as a pile of rock

Hmm, who is more incompetent, Iran high command or Iraq high command ie Saddam?

[junior trench]

authoritarian anti-intellectual ideologies having a horrible relations with their navies, home of the most technical and intellectual trades of the time

a tale as old as time

[unkempt sedge]

If you look at how the Iraqi Army performed during the Iran-Iraq war, it's no suprise that they performed so badly with the Coliation forces in 1991.

Iran was even cannibalizing it's own equipment and was even sanctioned and performed better.

[autumn sorrel]

"better", if you count sending infantry in mass attack ww1 style, over and over again, sure

[unkempt sedge]

Never said Iran was a perfect example of military competency, but the Iraqis were FAR worse.

[autumn sorrel]

Only reason the Iran was able to overwhelm Iraq defensive line is bc Iraq commanders was too scared to show initiative and Saddam nonsensical orders

[unkempt sedge]

That's the main reason Iraq did so poorly and was worse than Iran was.

[autumn sorrel]

Tbf, by the end of the war, Iraqi army did actually grow, why their officer corp still shit, the rank and file, especially the Republican Guard are at least well trained and discipline.

Funny that after Desert Storm, Saddam himself gut the Iraq military even more when completely prevent the army from being rebuild to a coherent fighting force.

[vestal willow]

What are the Fei Yuen class destroyers supposed to be? I can't find info about them anywhere.

[manic latch]

I would work on Soyuz as slave ngl

[unkempt sedge]

They were German built Torpedo Boats before ww1.

[vestal willow]

Historical or paper?

[unkempt sedge]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_Feng-class_destroyer

[vestal willow]

Pretty interesting, thanks

Is there any reason that the names of the other two ships differ from those in AL?

[unkempt sedge]

Still figuring it out tbh. Fei Yuen just was apparently renamed.

[runic ermine]

I heard that renaming a ship gives it bad luck

[unkempt sedge]

Depends on the ship. Any good examples?

[runic ermine]

Moskva

Originally named Slava

[runic ermine]

However it's probably not true and just a bit a of folk tale because other ships that had their names changed like Sevastopol have amazing stories

Like how she earned her name after defending Crimea

And HMCS Bonaventure. Laided down as HMS Powerful

[subtle prawn]

The original USS Midway being renamed to free up the name for a fleet carrier or so they say

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyLzA1dRc-Q

[runic ermine]

That's why I said that the original idea of 15 battleships was dumb

[manic latch]

There were no problems with rivet construction

[unkempt sedge]

4-3 was more realistic if they were able to work out quality and production issues.

[manic latch]

Belo's problem came from using wrong rivets

[runic ermine]

That's why they canceled all but 5

[runic ermine]

Yeah and some structural problems

[manic latch]

There were no structural problems

[runic ermine]

But what I ment here was building 15 battleships is unrealistic

[manic latch]

Ship wasn't finished for such testing

[runic ermine]

I thought they found some during construction

[manic latch]

Structural problems usually appear during sail testing I think

Since vibrations,from engines and water etc

Or gun blasts

[unkempt sedge]

Soviet shipyards were still relearning what knowledge they lost during the revolution, so those problems were to be expected honestly.

If the Great Patriotic War (as the Russians call it) never happened, they would probably have had 4 built by 1950 or at least the two planned ones.

[runic ermine]

Agreed. Maybe even longer

[junior trench]

"there is no panic"

[autumn sorrel]

Of course you would, Simp

[manic latch]

Even more ironic enough

If there was a problem at rivet construction and rivet deliveries were highly delayed

Then maybe faulty rivets of Belo would be spotted much earlier before so many was used on it

[manic latch]

Actually

Soyuz wouldn't exist if Tsar Empire existed

[unkempt sedge]

Sinop probably would.

[manic latch]

One of the 406mm plans for certainly

Maybe Big 7 would be Big 8 with Russian 16 inch BB

[junior trench]

lol

[manic latch]

But for late 1930s? Who knows how design would look like

[junior trench]

lmao

[unkempt sedge]

Russian BB evolution would be very different.

[manic latch]

Yup

Maybe keeping French influence

Instead more Italian style Soviets went

@unkempt sedge design Sinop comes from

[unkempt sedge]

They would have probably went more along British lines and I would end up thinking they would go with Italian deaigns at some point also.

That's the problem with "whataboutism" anyway. Russian BB designs could have went many directions.

Regardless if Sinop comes to AL, I will simp her regardless (Kronstadt is the only NP ship I simp atm). I've had too much fun playing her in WOWS.

But Musashi, Shinano, and eventually Yamato get first dibs.

[spring briar]

[unkempt sedge]

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1753254321574060177

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1944, USS Washington (BB-56) and USS Indiana (BB-58) collided while they were blacked out to prevent the Japanese from spotting them. Both battleships were badly damaged. Only the Washington's anchor chains prevented her main deck from totally collapsing.

Twitter · Feb 2, 2024, 3:09 AM

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1753451499722617028

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

Punxsutawney Phil did not see his shadow on this #GroundhogDay. Another shadow that could not be seen was the Sea Shadow AKA "Darth Vader's yacht." Built it 1984, the top-secret experimental stealth ship was finally revealed in 1993. It was scrapped in 2012.

Twitter · Feb 2, 2024, 4:13 PM

[heady sail]

Pretty related, Ansaldo engineers visited the captured Sovetskaya Ukraina, in Sevastopol, in 1942, and found really a lot of things non compliant or done badly.
For example the bulkheads of the Pugliese TDS was only between 35mm and 30mm, while the Italian used 40mm in their ships.

Moreover they also observed that the Soviets didn't use the mandatory continuos welding for the internal bulkheads of the TDS, because it was over their capabilities. They used a mixture of rivets and welding, which was an ineffective compromise.

They also noted that the steel quality of the ship wasn't good and also the hull had a non optimal coefficient.

Also they noted that the Powerplant was underpowered, moreover the three bladed propellers were quite bad, four or five bladed propellers were largely better, by their studies.

[unkempt sedge]

@Kremlin_Lover

Just got this in the mail to add to my collection.

[manic latch]

That prop one is quoted differently I think

[manic latch]

Since I think they judged by "on Littorio" type

Phoenix spoke about it but I forgot the details

Correct on welding Tho. Soviets lacked know how to do wide welding. So they relied heavily on riveting construction.

Only with capture of German engineers, documents, and gear that welding started to become more common, thus Sverdlovs using welding

[heady sail]

In think in later 1935-1937 studies, the Italians determined that four or five bladed propellers were better.

The note on the propellers.

"Propellers
Triple blades: not optimal as for Littorio, better four or five blades as per 1935–1937 studies."

[unkempt sedge]

I don't care what people say. Italians had VERY good shipbuilding in the 1930's. They offered an export version of the Littorios to Spain.

Not to mention they built ships for many countires. Romania, Sweden, Argentina, China, etc.

Plus they helped the Soviets build this beauty

[heady sail]

Tashkent my beloved.

Moreover they didn't help. They build it themselves, in the Livorno OTO shipyard.

[manic latch]

Ye Kiev class was designed as more "affordable' Tashkent class to be build in Ussr

That's why Tashkent in game mentions her sisters for a second, they got cancelled

[heady sail]

At the beginning they had plan to build some in the USSR.

[manic latch]

And thus this

[heady sail]

Yeah, exactly

[unkempt sedge]

Italians also designed large heavy crusiers for Spain, they were never laid down.

If you wonder where Amalfi, Napoli, and Brindisi in WOWS come from.

[manic latch]

Napoli was for Soviets lol

[willow jungle]

USS Cassin (DD-372) on the right, capsized and leaning on her sister USS Downes (DD-375) in Pearl Harbor.

[manic latch]

The cruiser killer

[heady sail]

From Ansaldo designs offered to Spain. But Spain was simply not in the economical conditions after the civil war to build them

[unkempt sedge]

My mistake. I stand corrected. Lol

[heady sail]

They also offered the Spanish the Littorio class design. Also to Argentina.

[ivory ridge]

because they arent the same ships

[unkempt sedge]

People will always rip on Italy for their war performance, but their Navy IMO was one of the best out there.

[ivory ridge]

lol

[unkempt sedge]

Wait really? You have a source? That's interesting.

[heady sail]

The new Spanish battleship Victoria, that is coming in wows is based on that.

[junior trench]

4th or 5th place of 7 contestants is certainly an interesting way to qualify "among the best"

I guess in the "list of all nations with a navy ever" way it would qualify

[unkempt sedge]

I meant Argentina.

[manic latch]

You are thinking with your.....
Heart

They had good looking ships but not in enough number or resource

RN managed to deal with both Germans and Italians

Would be easier if France

[unkempt sedge]

If compared to the RN, then yes as they were on a whole other level then the RM. They kept the Royal Navy on their toes and managed to tie down resources in the Med. They were FAR from terrible.

https://www.youtube.com/live/I5F8YyEXLAY?si=IFkzyyon_QoHOFWn

[manic latch]

"One of the best, far from terrible"

Your quotes are gold

[heady sail]

There were only some talks floated around.
The Argentines issued some designs specifications in 1937 really similar to the littorio class, in fact the admiral who issued them said he took direct inspiration from the Littorio class.
If they really pursued the construction of these battleship surely they would have contacted Ansaldo.
The Italians already built scaled down Trento class cruisers for Argentina, the "Venticinco de Mayo" and the "Almirante Brown". So it's really not far fetched to imagine that they would have collaborated in the design of a battleship.

Also the thirties Ansaldo tried offering different designs to South American countries, but in the end they ended nowhere.
For example they offered the Chilean navy the U.P. 90, a pocket battleship, also the Americans would join the venture and it would have had 5inch secondaries, to break the British influence on their navy. But this project failed when the British opposed.

[unkempt sedge]

They literally were pioneers of modern naval commandos.

They were a far bigger threat than the Kriegsmarine surface fleet in many ways.

They also helped pioneer modern motor torpedo boats. The Royal Navy took many ideas from the Italians raid on Alexandria where Valiant and Queen Elizabeth were disabled. They used these same tactics on sabatoging Tirpitz.

I stand by my previous statement. Laugh at me all you want. 😉

[heady sail]

Eh... The Italian navy was specifically designed to counter the french navy. A conflict between only France and Italy probably would have see the RM fare much better.

What doomed the Italian navy were three things:
-no radar;
-Enigma;
-no fuel.

[manic latch]

And no carrier

[unkempt sedge]

They eventually got radar, but too late. Gufo radar was used on the Littorios. They also bought FuMo sets from Germany.

Capitani Romani class Scipione Africano managed to fend off a RN MTB attack with radar in 1943.

If the Italians had it earlier, they would have given the British more problems. Cape Matapan may not have been a disaster.

[heady sail]

Lol, nobody in their right mind would think that the German navy or the German ships were better than the Italian ones.
Only the wehraboo and people who know history from memes would think that way.

In Azure lane and in WOWs the Kriegsmarine has so much prominence over the Regia Marina because they want to attract that kind of people.

[heady sail]

Yeah, also not taking Malta

[unkempt sedge]

THANK YOU!

As for shell and fuse quality. I will not deny those problems. The Italians did have them.

As for the Kriegsmarine, let's not forget how disastrous the invasion of Norway was for them.

They literally lost poor Blucher to an old Fort. (Battle of Drobak Sound)

We can say the RN took heavy losses also, but Britain could recover from those losses, Germany could not.

[heady sail]

Yeah, the Gufo Ter was the first serviceable radar they managed to develop. Too bad it was too late when it was developed. Also litteraly before the armistice they developed the Gufo Quater model which was much better, and on par with foreign radars.

[unkempt sedge]

Any other radars they develop? Gufo is the only one I know of.

I assume the rest were German.

[heady sail]

Eh, btw I also heard that the dispersion problems were pretty overblown. Statistically battleship didn't hit a lot of times.
For example the french Richelieu had worst dispersion.

[unkempt sedge]

Richlieu's had worse dispersion? I always heard the opposite.

[heady sail]

The Gufo was their radar model for ships. The Gufo Ter was the first one to be approved for mass production. Ter stands for third in Italian, meaning there was a first and a second model before, (which weren't powerful enough), it's the equivalent of Mk. III.
A fourth model of the Gufo was developed in the summer of 1943, the Quater model, aka G.III, this one had better range and also was able to automatically search for targets and also could lead naval fire. It was produced in limited quantities for the Germans after the armistice.

[unkempt sedge]

Thanks for the info 😉

[heady sail]

The french always suffered problems with their quadruples turrets, some of them had to be resolved by American engineers when it was being retrofit in the US.

I like to think that after that they refused to retrofit foreign ships again because they were so much shell shocked by the Richelieu.

[heady sail]

No problem. It's always nice finding people who appreciate the RM.

[unkempt sedge]

Too many postwar lies getting debunked recently on RM performance as new data is brought to light. Have to thank Drachinifel for helping to spread them around.😉

[heady sail]

They had other radars which were based on German models, but on ships they only used the Gufo Ter and the German Fu.Mo

[heady sail]

Yeah, let's hope that as time goes by some prejudices and lies will get erased.

Another historian who debunk these lies is James Sadkovich, I found his book about the war of the Regia Marina extremely good and objective.

[unkempt sedge]

Just realized my stupid mention that wows Napoli was intended for Spain. It was for the Soviet Navy. I admit my mistakes.

Thanks @Kremlin_Lover

[junior trench]

there's a pretty big gap between "bad myths make the Italians look worse than they were" and "Italians were one of the best navies" when they're arguably fighting for 4th with the French, behind the Big 3 Navies

[unkempt sedge]

I admit my "one of the best navies" was too generalized. I should have said "best performing."

While the Italians had their doctrine tailored to fight the French, it was not lost on them they might have to fight the Royal Navy as well and did prepare for that scenario if it were to happen.

Not to mention in prior and during WW1 the RM was focused on fighting not just France (later allied with them anyway), but Austria-Hungary (which really was not a problem as they were always in port), and to a lesser extent the Ottomans.

They managed to hold up the Royal Navy (a navy much more powerful than them) for 3 years. Their presence in the Mediterranean kept RN Fleet assets held up from heading to the Atlantic. Let's also not forget the Italian BETASOM units in France and their contribution.

They did certainly have their problems. Lack of fuel, radar, etc. All that aside they performed very well despite all the odds. I would definitely rank them in the top 5 performing navies of WW2.

[heady sail]

You have to consider that Italy had a fifth of the industry of the Germans. And also had smaller economy than France.
The RM punched above her weight.

They weren't the best navy, of course, but they had quality ships, and also they weren't the walking laughing stock pop culture portray them as.

For example I'll never get over how Kancolle portrayed Pola, that was simply disrespectful and insulting towards the sailors who lost their lives at Matapan.

[junior trench]

in your rush to cope you're still missing the point

but I can tell ya'll are pretty deadset on this

[heady sail]

But it's true the Regia Marina did well. The majority of the convoys arrived in Africa. And the war was only lost when they ran out of oil.

[junior trench]

oh god not this bullshit again

[heady sail]

Also Italian sub in the Atlantic, on average, outperformed the German ones.

[junior trench]

when margins are as thin as they were for those convoys, any losses are disastrous

[grave ravine]

And even ignoring the oil issues the tide had turned against the RM by the late 1942

[heady sail]

Of course, that's true, but it's not like Rommel was writing that entire divisions of panzers were under the sea. That is simply a lie. Rommel tried to scapegoat his shortcomings on the Italians continuosly. Of course Rommel was a genius tactician, but it didn't get logistic, like at all.

[grave ravine]

Simply as a factor of the increased amount of force available to the Allies

[junior trench]

Rommel trying to blame the Italians doesn't change the inability to run sufficient convoys to successfully prosecute a war in North Africa

[grave ravine]

The last hurrah of the RM in early-mid 1942 was mostly enabled by the Indian Ocean Raid

[heady sail]

In late 1942 they already pretty much ran out of oil.

[grave ravine]

Sure, but the balance of forces had also turned so decisively against the Italians by that point

[grave ravine]

Calling Rommel a genius tactician is also something of a stretch

[heady sail]

They runt efficient convoys, tho. Between 1942 almost every month they consistently managed to send in Africa between 80% and 90% of everything they sent.

[unkempt sedge]

Yes, and the oil situation made it worse.

Plus, Italy itself was led by incompetant leadership that made them go to war when they were not ready. Geopolitically, Italy should have stayed neutral during that war lol.

[junior trench]

see my point about margins and losses

if you can only throw together convoys with margins so small any loss is relatively disastrous, then there's a failure of strategic and operational planning going on

[grave ravine]

The story of the Axis is a story of failure of strategic planning

[heady sail]

Of course, Italy couldn't replace her losses. Moreover the decision to not take Malta really compromised the war for the Axis.

[junior trench]

not sure if I'd call it a "choice"

[grave ravine]

The Italian navy fought valiantly and effectively but that's also kinda something that can be said of any of the 5 treaty navies

[junior trench]

considering that counterfactual is on the level of "don't siege Leningrad, just take it"

[grave ravine]

Of course the Italian Navy looks really good compared to the hot mess that is the Kreigsmarine, but being better than the Kreigsmarine also shouldn't be our benchmark of what qualifies you for being one of the best

[heady sail]

Rommel is the reason Malta wasn't taken.
When Germany finally grenlit operation C3, the invasion of Malta, the Regia Marina had to divert her ship to resupply Rommel's stupid advance in the middle of the desert.
They had to supply him in a zone with virtually no ports, but nevertheless they did it egregiously well. One could say that Rommel was indirectly the cause why the war was compromised.

[heady sail]

Unless they managed to close the Mediterranean taking some losses was inevitable. If you think about the fact that the British knew about the convoy routes thanks to Enigma it's even more impressive what they did.

[grave ravine]

Had Operation C3 happened, it's still kinda too late to help

[junior trench]

again, margins and losses

[grave ravine]

Torch is coming, and that just seals the deal for the Mediterranean campaign

[unkempt sedge]

To be fair on that point. I'm no wehraboo, but Rommel was also sent to bail the Italian army out due to their failed offensives in North Africa.

Rommel should have been sent to take Malta first IMO.

But with the situation in North Africa, that was impossible.

[junior trench]

you can keep hammering about how the convoys were efficient and losses were inevitable, but those inevitable losses remained too high to sustain the war in North Africa

under the convoy system being used

[shy grail]

November to December 1941 is basically 40% loss rate which is pretty bad, and probably not inevitable

[heady sail]

Yeah, exactly. Many high ranking fascists were against the alliance with Germany. They had a more favourable outlook towards the British.

Before the Ethiopian crisis Italy, France and the UK where all pretty close.
The UK even considered Italy a potential ally in a possible war against the french in the thirties.

[shy grail]

You have to cut off malta “somehow” (which requires German help) and you have to wack the British in a decisive battle a lot earlier tbh

[grave ravine]

Italy can't just supply enough to keep fighting in North Africa, they have to win by mid 42 or they never will

[shy grail]

Yeah Torch completely screws with any chance of success

[heady sail]

Eh, not really. Of course they had to take Malta before, but Malta was really an important starting point for British attacks. It's one of the main reason why Italy lost the war.

[shy grail]

Oh right @chilly osprey

[spring briar]

Nah stop with the “how could the axis do better”
I prefer the far likelier scenario where france stays in the fight trough some lucky break in summer 1940 and completely encapsulates the italian fleet and prevents anything from going to northern africa

[grave ravine]

Even if you take Malta in July or August 1942, it doesn't give you enough time to win the land battle in North Africa before you are swamped by Torch, especially with how the forces in North Africa will be significantly more supply constrained in that period because of the shipping needed for C3

[heady sail]

Had they took Malta in the late 1941 probably things would have went differently. But the truth is Italy should have stayed neutral or even joined the Allies.

[grave ravine]

But taking Malta in 1941 isn't being talked about

[ivory ridge]

[shy grail]

Reynard doesn’t resign, Mussolini doesn’t have concert of Europe ideas, done

[spring briar]

Or if Italy stays neutral, which is more likely in such a scenario

Fren

[ivory ridge]

[spring briar]

Overthrow Musso tho

[unkempt sedge]

Exactly. Even when other fascists in Italy knew at how stupid Mussolini's objectives are is VERY telling. Italy should have stayed neutral and help in post-war rebuilding.

He made the Austrian Painter and the Georgian Priest look like tactical geniuses (they were not).

[heady sail]

The operations had to cease for lack of oil and convoys.
Do you know that thank to Mussolini's sudden decision to declare war a third of the merchant marine of Italy was blocked outside the Mediterranean?

[unkempt sedge]

Mussolini being so detached from reality is hilarious.

[junior trench]

again, not actually engaging with the point

this is just circular at this point

[heady sail]

At the start Malta was sort of undefended, the British considered it lost. Italy could have taken Malta by herself at the start of the war.

[shy grail]

Italy doesn’t have any landing craft and only 2 BBs

Even trying to take Malta by early 1941 is problematic

[heady sail]

They had no oil by mid 1942! That's why they couldn't send anything more in Africa.

[shy grail]

And also Royal navy has a total of 7 BBs and 3 carriers to oppose you

[heady sail]

Lol, not even in your wettest dreams.

[shy grail]

Italy could deal with the convoy loses so on as 1. Torch doesn’t happen 2. Tripoli doesn’t fall 3. Force K doesn’t happen, 4. Malta doesn’t get supplied post April 1942

[shy grail]

Hence

[unkempt sedge]

Don't know how valid this blog post is. Any one else know if Italy tried to develop landing craft?

https://warshipsresearch.blogspot.com/2015/12/italian-landing-craft-or-so-called.html?m=1

[heady sail]

Yeah, that would be much better

[spring briar]

?

[grave ravine]

I don't think you get it, by mid 1942 Italy has already lost, because by this point the North Africa Campaign is effectively unwinnable

If it ever was at all

Which is somewhat doubtful

[heady sail]

Malta it's really close to Italy tho. I'm sure they had a shot. But again, Italy should have stayed neutral.

[shy grail]

Yeah, stuff needed to be done earlier

[grave ravine]

Which it couldn't

[chilly osprey]

Oh boy, what was I dragged into?

[spring briar]

The axis couldn’t win discussion

[chilly osprey]

Oh god I already see a whole bunch of myths popping up

[chilly osprey]

I mean, that should be taken as a given from the start of any convo.

[heady sail]

The french navy destroying the Italian one. The Italian one was designed to specifically counter the french. Regardless the rest I agree that Italy had no business being against France and the UK.

[spring briar]

In my scenario this is of course going to be a joint MN-RN fleet

[unkempt sedge]

If Italy was more prepared. They would have had more land based aircraft with long range to attack RN carriers. SM.79 & 84 and they already had islands and the Coast of Libya for Airfields.

[shy grail]

No like decisively battle the British like twice to gain control of the Mediterranean and shifting around other things

[shy grail]

Italy doesn’t have any torpedo bombers at the start of the war

They get like 5 by September 1940

[chilly osprey]

Italy could have done a lot better with the resources it had, but this is also one of those things that ventures into "if the fascists weren't fascists, and the Nazi's weren't Nazi's..."

Because so many of the problems - beyond resource and industrial base questions - do stem from this.

[shy grail]

Yeah

[spring briar]

The RM was designed to counter the MN?
What
You know this more or less means parity right
And not outright every design being made to specifically destroy its opposite number

Some classes were built as counters

Sure

[heady sail]

That's not true. The Italians asked the Germans for Tunisian ports to the Germans, so they didn't had to do routes to go around Malta and they refused. They asked the Germans for oil and they always gave them too little. The Germans never made Italy part of the decisions. For example in 1941, when Italy finally concluded a trade agreement with the Soviets for oil the Germans invaded it. Also the Germans always considered the Mediterranean a secondary front, when it was of the utmost importance.

[chilly osprey]

Since this is kind of my field - I am all for re-evaluating myths and past explanations for events, but let's not try and re-fight the war here.

[heady sail]

Same thing, you aren't destroying the RM. Moreover Musso specifically entered the war because of the collapse in France. So if France was good it wouldn't have entered.

[grave ravine]

You can't blame the Germans for devoting their resources to their own unwinnable war rather than yours

[chilly osprey]

Because at the end of the day, the Axis started a war against superior powers - powers superior in industrial, financial, and technological capability with far more access to the world's resources. And far more willing to work together than meerly alongside each other.

Individual tactical engagements or operations could have gone other ways in some scenarios, but the fundamental strategic calculus wasn't.

[spring briar]

Thats what I added to my comment ye

[heady sail]

The fascists could have absolutely stayed neutral tho. It's not like they ideologically or economically were forced to attack the allies like Germany.

[chilly osprey]

They could have, though I'd note that Mussolini personally really wanted to

He had the problem of lacking total control and thus actually needing to convince the rest of government that it wasn't an insane course of action.

[heady sail]

Italy had only a fifth of the industrial production of Germany.

[heady sail]

Yeah, but considering the RN didn't manage to do that in three years, I kinda see your point difficult to achieve.

[chilly osprey]

A lot of the highest echelons of political power - particularly in the military and with the monarchists - were fairly anti-German (not even explicitly Nazi's, they just didn't like the Germans), but Mussolini was fantastically anglo and francophobic.

[chilly osprey]

In Richy's scenario of France staying in the fight, it's the RN and the MN

The RM was never going to be able to do much of anything against that

And the air situation is catestrophic for the Axis in such a scenario

[spring briar]

Plus we got the Toulon-Oran-bizerte triangle

[chilly osprey]

Well, Bizerte as I understand it was intended to be largely abandoned

The MN felt it was too vulnerable, and hence Mers-el-Kébir and Oran being built up

[spring briar]

True

[chilly osprey]

But the reality was that the RM would have been massively outnumbered in all categories of warship in both basins of the Med at once

It would have made convoy operations impossible, and the task of the fleet would largely be restricted to the defense of the coast

But in such a scenario the British and French could afford to accept battle under any conditions, because grave losses to themselves in a decisive engagement would still effectively cripple the RM as a fighting force, while the British and French could keep fighting.

[heady sail]

I only want to clear things, there is no point in saying the war could be won or anything, because that's not true. Simply some things could have been done differently.
One day I would like to see a discussion where Italy isn't the laughing stock.
Pola's kancolle still itches me in the wrong spot for example, I would like for similar things to never happen again.

[chilly osprey]

Yeah, that's entirely fair

[spring briar]

Same thing with me liking to think of a scenario where france gets to do anything

[heady sail]

Not really, it was all political posturing by Mussolini. Mussolini was a spineless coward, he was ready to go where the wind blew. It was a personal friend of Churchill, and until the Ethiopian crisis Italy had good relations with the UK.

[chilly osprey]

Me and the scenario where the King finds his balls and executes Mussolini in 1925

[junior trench]

you're not fighting that strawman here

[heady sail]

A similar scenario would never happen in the first place tho, because Mussolini was stupid but not suicidal.

[unkempt sedge]

All I simply stated was that Italy, despite it's problems and issues. Managed to do very well given their own incompetant leadership and what they were up against.

Same goes for the French too. I would never diss France's contribitions either.

I simply think the Italians deserve their recognition, nothing more.

[chilly osprey]

Well, more like he lacked the authority to do it by himself.

He could not send Italy to war without the King permitting it.

[heady sail]

It would have been an impossible situation. And it's exactly why Mussolini waited for the fall of France.

[junior trench]

there's something to be said about reading too much into being gallantly defeated

[chilly osprey]

And France's collapse and what seemed like a clear German victory was exactly the kind of evidence he needed to be able to get VE III to approve the last minute joining of the war.

[heady sail]

The king didn't like the Germans, but the push to enter the war in 1940 also came from the monarchical camp.

[heady sail]

Yeah, of course. I can understand you. France and Italy are the most unjustly slandered countries by British and German propaganda.

[proud hearth]

am i allowed to discuss how japan was worse than germany in ww2 here

https://tenor.com/view/frank-west-dead-rising-gmod-dance-garrys-mod-drcord-gif-25905500

[junior trench]

pls do not the genocide olympics

[shy grail]

I mean like in terms of what, Industry? Yeah that kinda obvious

[proud hearth]

no

war crimes

[shy grail]

^

[proud hearth]

sadge

[unkempt sedge]

I also ^

[wintry moat]

Shouldnt be a pissing contest

to who can be more awful

[proud hearth]

i'll just do like 1 word

Nanjing

done

anyways whats going on

[heady sail]

Yeah, and that exactly was stupid. Italy simply had nothing to gain by attacking the allies. At most it would have gained some useless colonies in Africa. Moreover I'm not really sure Mussolini gave a good thought about living in a Nazi Germany dominated Europe...

[junior trench]

https://tenor.com/view/frieren-low-tier-god-gif-4707973357776352028

[proud hearth]

https://tenor.com/view/war-planes-tanks-gravity-broken-gif-26202635

[heady sail]

I think Italy had much more interest in opposing the Germans if she wanted to gain influence in the Balkans.

[unkempt sedge]

Ideology blinds people to do stupid things.

[chilly osprey]

He didn't, but he also wasn't really banking on Germany conquering everything in such a fashion.

Mussolini even before the rise of the Nazi's supported secret re-armament efforts in Weimar Germany because he wanted a counterweight to France in Europe. He was a revisionist of the post-WWI order and his goals naturally brought him against France - remember, Italy in this period did have irredentist claims on French territory (Corsica, Nizza, Savoia, Tunisia) - and likewise Mussolini felt threatened by France, for hiding socialist dissenters and also for their support of Yugoslavia.

He wanted Germany to exist as a counterweight to France's superior military might on the continent, but clearly did not realize what he was helping to unleash in Germany.

He was also francophobic in general.

Because otherwise, yeah, in a sane and rational world Ethiopia was not worth giving up Austria and Hungary

[heady sail]

Also Mussolini probably didn't expect that the Ethiopian war would cause France and Britain to turn on Italy.

[spring briar]

Mussolini having never heard of the Franco Austrian war until the point when the war is won and France takes its Italian concessions

[chilly osprey]

More so that there was very much a view at the time that Napoleon III's territorial demands were unjust, and Mussolini and the fascist part were never not going to try and exploit that for their cause.

Likewise Tunisia was seen as 'stolen' from Italy when France occupied it, it having predominantly an Italian presence beforehand, and the fascist party also supported irredentists on Corsica in this period.

[spring briar]

Kind of a pity really

Napoleon III’s favourite mistress was Italian

Virginia Oldoini, Countess Verasis of Castiglione

[shy grail]

Well Napoleon is from Corsica (somewhat anyway)

[spring briar]

She truly was one of history’s first cosplayers

[chilly osprey]

I will hold grievance over Nizza/Nice, just because of it being clearly Italian at the time, where Garibaldi was from, and from where the paternal line in my family comes from if you trace it all the way up.

Savoy... well, eh.

lol

[shy grail]

Losing your dynasty namesake is a bit of an oof

[heady sail]

The fact that France supported Yugoslavia it's the worst thing imo, the whole Vittoria Mutilata was mostly due to the fact that they didn't keep their promises.

Many were expecting a new war Europe and they were expecting the french to cause it. As I was saying, for some time both Italy and the UK had drawn plans against France, and the UK expected Italy to be an ally in this potential war.

I think until the Ethiopian crisis Britain sort of viewed Italy as more trustworthy than France.

[shy grail]

Could have north of Chambery/Savoy as well

[chilly osprey]

Yeah but that ends up leaving you with territory on the other side of the Alps

PITA to defend or just have connected to your country in general

[heady sail]

I don't want to get into an argument about this. But it's not like Napoleon III had the best interests of Italy in mind. It wanted to kick the Austrians outside of Italy to install three puppets governments and divide Italy in three kingdoms. When central Italy voted to join Piedmont he pulled out of the war because he realised his plan was unfeasible.

[manic latch]

I'm gonna eat Lemon cheesecake

[spring briar]

Napoleon III’s brother was a hardline supporter of Italian unification
He died, so Napoleon saw it as his duty towards his brother to see this fulfilled

He was no Bismarck

He absolutely did things out of emotional investment

[shy grail]

The Mexican debacle as well

[chilly osprey]

I wouldn't really hold that on the French even mostly. They weren't hugely bothered by the region so much as the Americans, or namely Woodrow Wilon, did.

And there's plenty of argument to be had about how just it was that some of those territories go to Italy, regardless of them being promised by treaty before the war.

And with the rise of fascism in Italy, it was not unreasonable for France to make an ally of Yugoslavia in order to hold a revisionist power in check, especially when that power was the second largest military power on the continent after France itself. They just did not see it from the Italian perspective - the Italians being worried that Yugoslavia would try to come after Italy on irredentist claims of their own.

[spring briar]

So if anyone has a problem with that they would have to take that up with him ngl

^14 points

[shy grail]

I’m surprised he didn’t try to support the Confederacy as well to help with the Mexican fight

[chilly osprey]

I don't think supporting slaveholders would have been an especially popular opinion in France of the era?

[shy grail]

Probably ig

[heady sail]

Yeah, Nizza was an Italian city.
Cavour was pretty overzealous, having pulled out of the war, Napoleon III, broke the agreement. Cavour had no obligation to hand them over Nizza and Savoy.

And Tunisia was the thing that caused Italy to join the central powers in the first place.

It's funny, first the UK and France slap Italy all day, and after they wonder why she joins Germany...

[spring briar]

The whole emancipation proclamation made the ACW an actual war against slavery
And this in turn stopped any european ambitions for aiding the confederacy to keep getting cotton or for gaining territorial influence in central and south america

[heady sail]

I didn't know that. It's interesting. I know Napoleon III wasn't a bad person, but I know he also had some plans for Italy. Maybe he was less cynical than I said, but it's also true that he pulled out of the war without taking Veneto, and thus breaking the pact he made with Cavour.

[runic ermine]

Interesting

[heady sail]

It's no secret I think Wilson was the worst American president ever. For the 14 points and for all the racist things he did.

[spring briar]

Speaking about this time period is going to re-awaken my obsession with black powder rifles

[heady sail]

Yes, I agree with you. Come on, I don't wanna argue anymore. I said the other day the french and the Italians are the most similar population out there.

[unkempt sedge]

That sounds like an obsession worth reawakening 😉

https://youtu.be/baGkfJPsWjw?si=CbICL9yjHf164nqy

[chilly osprey]

At the risk of playing into our stereotypes. If we're more alike, that only means we should be more inclined to argue with each other

[spring briar]

Stop

Don’t

[heady sail]

Both the french and the British considering intervention in the American civil war. The Southern cotton was really important to them. That's why the war was quickly made over slavery.

[unkempt sedge]

[spring briar]

Was a great move after the Crimea war showed how public interest could now sway military decisions

Oh no

[manic latch]

"The manufacture of cotton cloth and thread was by far the country's largest industry in the mid-nineteenth century. It employed more than 600,000 people in England directly. Indirectly (through family units or other trades), nearly four million people, or one sixth of the English population, were dependent upon cotton for their livelihoods. When the Civil War began, the United States supplied about eighty percent of Britain’s raw cotton, and almost all of it arrived through the port of Liverpool."

[heady sail]

Yeah, we can argue and fight all day, but in the end I think the Italians and the french are like brothers.

They also both have shitty rulers.

[unkempt sedge]

Same goes for the Italians and Greeks. Italians really did not want to fight them.

[shy grail]

A bit later on yeah probably

[manic latch]

[shy grail]

But that’s like 18th century

[spring briar]

Austrian bullets from the battle of Solferino

Noooo

[runic ermine]

Neat

[manic latch]

"Respect each other!" - Soviet Perestroyka-era poster.

[runic ermine]

Una fasa una rasa

[spring briar]

“Respect each other” when I see a T-72B3 point its IR spotlight at me

[runic ermine]

I have one of those in lego

[heady sail]

Yeah, exactly. Another misconseption it's that Mussolini wanted to invade Greece out of the blue, that's not true. He invaded because it was receiving pressures by Hitler. Hitler wanted to cover his back for operation Barbarossa, and so he didn't want English troops in the continent. And so he said that it would give Italy oil on the condition that Italy invaded Greece.

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/paz-white-flag-wave-waving-flag-gif-15666633

[runic ermine]

Also it's a myth that the italian got their asses handed to them everywhere. They had notable successes in Africa, in Yugoslavia, on the Eastern Front, and in their homeland

[manic latch]

Rich after missing it

[spring briar]

Krem

[runic ermine]

Ah cuz he's french

[spring briar]

[heady sail]

In Italian is "una faccia, una razza". (One face, one race.)

[manic latch]

Don't poke the bear Rich

[runic ermine]

Yeah I just mispelt it

[spring briar]

I’m just stating a fact

[runic ermine]

I know this better than anyone

[manic latch]

The fuck is a one face

[runic ermine]

It's that they are people of the Mediterranean and shouldn't fight each other

[spring briar]

I will poke it more because you posted that

[manic latch]

[manic latch]

See how it's imprinted on minds of people

[heady sail]

Yeah, we are coming exactly from a heated argument about that. But now we have clarified everything and we realized that it's all the fault of the British/s

[manic latch]

He KNEW it was referring France

[heady sail]

That both Italy and France are slandered.

[spring briar]

You asked for it krem

[runic ermine]

Well my great grandfather didn't survive that hellhole of a war for nothing

[runic ermine]

Yeah france only did kinda bad because of outdated doctrine

And italy it was due to supply issues

[spring briar]

Multiple layers of issues for Italy

[runic ermine]

Yeah same with france

[shy grail]

Also comically plane allocation decision, and breakdown of communication, and sending 7th army to fight in the Netherlands…

[heady sail]

My great grandfather was captured in Operation compass in Africa. He was part of the mountain troops, the Alpini.

[heady sail]

Yeah, kinda agree with your staments.

[runic ermine]

Interesting. I don't know much about my great grandfather's service because he didn't like talking about the war

[heady sail]

🇮🇹❤️🇫🇷

[runic ermine]

It's why you got casualty numbers like this:

[shy grail]

Yeah, fighting with that aircraft disparity usually doesn’t end well

[heady sail]

I presume you are Greek, I know that it's superfluous, but I think it was really criminal to invade Greece. As I said Italians and Greeks are really close.

[runic ermine]

Half Greek, Half Italian, born and raised in Canada

[heady sail]

So, Italian and Greek, basically you are two times brother!

[runic ermine]

Yep

[spring briar]

Valiant effort

[runic ermine]

True

[spring briar]

The taking of the low countries and subsequent chaos truly didn’t help

[unkempt sedge]

🇮🇹 ❤️ 🇫🇷 ❤️ 🇬🇷 😉

[heady sail]

Yeah, imo why France collapsed. Probably you should have hold the ground in France. Maybe extending the fortifications until Belgium also. I don't remember, did they extend the Maginot until Belgium, didn't they? Or I'm confusing things with HoI4?

[runic ermine]

🇧🇪🇳🇱🇱🇺 yeah they did they're best

[heady sail]

That's why this time Germany invaded also Holland, because they didn't want to get bogged down in Belgium again like in the first world war.

[runic ermine]

Belgium had a line https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-W_Line

[spring briar]

France expected an attack trough the low countries concentrated at the centrum of Belgium
This actually happened and a large part of the allied troops were sent there
But this was only a feint as the main german assault came from the ardennes and cut off this part of the allies

[heady sail]

I really like military things, but it would be much better if everyone put aside their difference and come together, we are all humans after all!

[junior trench]

mfw APCRDS-FS

[heady sail]

Yeah, so I remembered correctly. Unfortunately it didn't work out.

[runic ermine]

I got a question for you

[spring briar]

Yeah
Still one of the most useless side grades imaginable

[junior trench]

penetrating mass doko?

[spring briar]

Telling that nato never even made a single one like it

[junior trench]

you legit get better results with 3rd gen APDS than that excuse for 1st gen APFSDS

[spring briar]

Soviets perceived it to be better than monobloc against pure RHA armor
But didn’t consider just making the entire dart tungsten

Like nato did

Or well atleast a very large tungsten cores for the first nato darts

[runic ermine]

They didn't make any Armour, Piercing, Composite, Rigid, Discarding, Sabot - Fin Stablizing

[spring briar]

[runic ermine]

I just wanted to say it lol

[unkempt sedge]

I concur.

[spring briar]

This also doesn’t tell the real story
Or the story the germans don’t want you to know

[spring briar]

[heady sail]

The British are the same tbh. British and German propaganda is why there are so many misconceptions about France and Italy.

[manic latch]

Bring back Normans

[spring briar]

No but aside from that

[runic ermine]

Yeah

[shy grail]

That’s just the Brits + Sicily

[runic ermine]

@spring briar @junior trench question. Did any of your relatives serve during ww2?

[unkempt sedge]

[heady sail]

Angevin Empire for life.

[spring briar]

Yeah

And WW1

[heady sail]

Another great grandfather of mine got sent to fight in Libya against the Ottomans in 1911.

[shy grail]

If they + HRE could only with a battle against 1/3 of France

[runic ermine]

Nice

[heady sail]

This same one went to Canada after and so didn't serve during WWI, but he found it too cold.

[runic ermine]

Well it is very cold here

[unkempt sedge]

One of my granduncles actually served on the USS Indianapolis. I forgot what he did though.

My Great-grandfather on the other hand could not go to combat due to an factory injury so he served as a dockworker in Britain. He loaded and unloaded ships.

[heady sail]

He then returned to Italy after WWI.

[runic ermine]

Neat

[heady sail]

Really interesting!

[unkempt sedge]

My step-grandfather served in the U.S. Army. He landed at Normandy, but it was after D-Day and the beachhead was established. He also served in the Battle of the Bulge.

Problem is he died when I was 4 years old, so I do not know much what they did.

[runic ermine]

So only @junior trench is left

[runic ermine]

My great grandfather died before I got to know him too

But when I meet him in heaven I'll ask all about his experiences

[unkempt sedge]

The same goes for most of my family. They all died before I was born. The only person who would have known was my grandmother, but she died in 2019.

I believe I also had a other granduncle who served on a submarine or was also in the Navy, but I do not know for sure.

Oh! And on my mother's side my great-grandfather was on Bougainville. Just remembered that.

[heady sail]

Same mines, one died in the eighties and the other in the nineties. Mostly my grandma told me about them.

[spring briar]

Don’t ping them repeatedly

[runic ermine]

Sorry

[unkempt sedge]

Yeah. The same for me. I feel bad at times I never got to meet them.

[heady sail]

He said that when you are in the desert sands litteraly gets everywhere. There is nothing worse than eating your food mixed with sand. He said that every time he ate something he always felt sand in the mouth.

[spring briar]

That includes me

Turn your pings off

[heady sail]

Also the Libyans were really ferocious.

[heady sail]

Then sorry, I might have also pinged you lots times too...

[runic ermine]

Sorry

[manic latch]

Wish Soyuz pinged me

[shy grail]

Soon TM

[unkempt sedge]

I owe you an apology for pinging you also. I think I did a few times.

[zealous vine]

Does anyone know how the loading system looks for the Swedish SAV (the clip-fed 120mm)

[manic latch]

You did it now

[unkempt sedge]

Sorry 😭

[zealous vine]

Nvm I found it

[spring briar]

Mf died when the casette autoloader was introduced

[zealous vine]

I mean, loading a shell transversely can be faster than longitudinally

But it does sacrifice a lot of things

[runic ermine]

https://youtu.be/5oGCdxHfiV4?si=8aCnSHbj-IAdcyJb

[glass trail]

hear me out, clip fed clip fed 120mm

[zealous vine]

technically...

with crewless turret tech,

have a sideway clip of clips of shells

and as each clip gets emptied, the next clip slides along the bigger clip to load the gun

[glass trail]

just make a mecha at that point LOL

[zealous vine]

pretty much

or just

s h e l l d r u m

[frozen kestrel]

Quick Question: Are there any existing photos showing the tail end of this particular bomb? I've only been able to find photos of the nose being painted and this one

[autumn sorrel]

@ivory ridge Not only Type 89 with type 16 turret but a type 16 with type 87 SPAAG turret

[ivory ridge]

ive seen drawings of those but not much more else

[autumn sorrel]

Would it need a jack like wheeled Pantsir tho?

[ivory ridge]

ive seen more unstable platforms with AA guns on top

[wintry moat]

That looks cool

[remote monolith]

https://www.livescience.com/planet-earth/plants/we-were-gobsmacked-350-million-year-old-tree-fossils-are-unlike-any-scientists-have-ever-seen

Usually, only the trunks of ancient trees are preserved in the fossil record. But the new discovery reveals a dense canopy of more than 250 leaves crowded around the top 30 inches (75 centimeters) of a spindly, unbranched tree trunk that stood around 8.7 feet (2.7 meters) tall. The leaves grew up to 9.8 feet (3 m) long and extended out from the trunk in "tightly compressed spirals," according to the study, published Friday (Feb. 2) in the journal Current Biology.

wtf

[frozen kestrel]

Sounds like an ancient palm tree

[remote monolith]

similar in appearance, but a completely different line that doesn't have any surviving lineage today

this thing is basically one of those failed nature experiments that didn't go anywhere

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1753599223763702151

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

After USS White Sands was decommissioned in 1974, it was bought by a company that needed to move the ship with an 81' beam through the 80' wide Ballard Locks. It was done by weighting down one side of the ship and then transiting the locks while tilted 38 degrees.
#FunFactFriday

Twitter · Feb 3, 2024, 2:00 AM

[lost ravine]

https://youtu.be/Z6FigMj1fVk?si=8__mRB9sbn8NuTdO

Need this one added.

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjdQu7RhZak

[cunning salmon]

Looks they just fit in one of those star wars blasters lol

[runic ermine]

Star wars does have a lot of historically inspired stuff

[strong plank]

watching full metal jacket - would they have still used m14s for training after the M16 was adopted?

[junior trench]

we got MREs what weren't even on the menu anymore in BCT

ammo that wasn't standard issue anymore

bodyarmor that wasn't standard issue anymore

and mags that weren't supposed to be issued anymore

so

I'd expect to see M14s hanging around BCT and other branch's equivalents for a bit

[strong plank]

guess that tracks

still, you'd think it'd be phased out quicker due to the different manual of arms

versus like, using M16s as stand-ins for M4s or M27s today

[visual rover]

History of HNLMS Karel Doorman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Karel_Doorman

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1753828515659526574

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

While searching for souvenirs on a Pacific island during WWII, a pair of Seabees stumbled upon two Japanese soldiers. Unarmed, the Seabees attacked with their fists. When the fight was over, the Seabees returned to camp with their souvenirs—two Japanese rifles.
#SeaStorySaturday

Twitter · Feb 3, 2024, 5:11 PM

[frozen kestrel]

Okay, guys, this is the AIM-120C, right?

[indigo jay]

excuse me, does anyone know what is this thing?

[desert agate]

its a barrier for when aircraft are spotted on the deck for take off

[indigo jay]

thank you

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FnVJ0ziRTE

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8VIV1pzx_w

[manic latch]

@tough quail
"Soviet researchers predicted the level of armor protection of Western tanks, so the assessment of the level of Western tanks “Leopard- 3” and “MBT- 90” [Abrams replacement] was 680-700 mm equivalent of steel rolled homogenous armor.
This required the transition to a more powerful 152 mm caliber gun."

[willow jungle]

HMS Sussex after being hit by a Kamikaze.

[junior trench]

https://imgur.com/qKUy0AE

[chilly osprey]

A lesson in sectional density lol

Weigh as much as a battleship shell, can't penetrate 1" of steel

[frozen kestrel]

115mm armor belt just kinda went 'Parry this you fucking casual'

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1754177467894399210

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1985, USS Buchanan (DDG-14) was denied entry to New Zealand due to the government's anti-nuclear stance and the U.S. Navy's policy to neither confirm nor deny the presence of nukes on its ships. The incident resulted in the U.S. suspending military ties with New Zealand.

Twitter · Feb 4, 2024, 4:17 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBibWx3DQs8

[visual rover]

History of HNLMS Rotterdam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Rotterdam

[ivory ridge]

first frontal picture

[runic ermine]

looks better than that T-55 with an AA gun on top

[frozen kestrel]

B R I C K

[strong mountain]

https://macau.uni-kiel.de/servlets/MCRFileNodeServlet/macau_derivate_00004688/kiel-up_978-3-928794-83-1_p12.pdf

WTF YOU MEAN SHES STILL DOWN THERE

brb getting a shovel

[shy grail]

Funny thing is Sussex doesn’t actually have an armour belt in that location

So it just got rejected by the 1in hull plating lmao

[frozen kestrel]

Now I'm laughing like a fucking goblin

[chilly osprey]

That's why I made the crack about sectional density

Literally just the 25mm plating there

[frozen kestrel]

Quick question: What's the whole story with USS Georgia's design? This question's been bugging me for a while, and I'd honestly like to know the story

[eager dove]

What about it?

it's basically an Iowa preliminary design with twin 457mm turrets instead of triple 406mm turrets

[desert agate]

#history message

[frozen kestrel]

Thank you

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naXTFr4XjsM

[humble jewel]

Bro didn't even penetrate... that's just embarrassing 💀

[visual rover]

History of HNLMS Groningen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Groningen
#other-games message

[lime scarab]

Quick question guys but how was a sword fish able to hit bismark even though they were so out dated?

[wintry moat]

planes fly faster than ships sail

And Bismarck’s AA wasnt great

[lime scarab]

O wow it was that simple

[wintry moat]

She dodged a few of them

but Bismarck had shitty handling at low speed

[lime scarab]

So that was a flaw of hers

[wintry moat]

Yes

At least as I know

[runic ermine]

What country preformed the worst in WW2?

[chilly osprey]

Also, bluntly, the Swordfish weren't really outdated

They entered service the same year Bismarck was laid down

[manic latch]

China

Can't blame them tho

[chilly osprey]

Certainly they weren't the most advanced torpedo bombers around come May of 1941, but but nor were they hopelessly obsolete

And when it came to dealing with Bismarck - she was a battleship on her own, which is generally not a great recipe for success from a defender's PoV

[runic ermine]

Myself I'd say Vichy France

because they barely had any successes

[manic latch]

France

Nah France did good

They uhh

[runic ermine]

not regular france vichy france

[manic latch]

I KNOW LAD

REGULAR FRANCE WAS GONE

[runic ermine]

yes this is the presidential flag but it helps differentiate

[manic latch]

France was "good" in a way they had much less casualties and destruction they might have got

[chilly osprey]

Vichy France is honestly in too weird a situation to properly categorize

[runic ermine]

however vichy france had some drip

[chilly osprey]

Because technically they weren't at war

And yet they still fought, primarily against the Allied powers (when attacked)

[manic latch]

Paris would be flattened if they resist I think

So white flag was actually good decision if you have hindsight

Which they didn't but

Luck perhaps

[chilly osprey]

They also didn't really have much of an option for coherent resistance by the time the armistice was signed.

[manic latch]

Ye

[runic ermine]

I'd class that as Co-Beligerance like Iraq

Cuz Iraq wasn't an official member of the axis but they overthrew their pro British government for a pro german one and received aid from Germany, Italy and Vichy France

[chilly osprey]

This is one of those cases where, yeah, sometimes, you are just beaten in the field, and the reality is most European countries simply lack the strategic depth to lose as much ground as France did in 1940 and still be able to effectively resist.

[runic ermine]

And they fought the British and their allies for a month

[manic latch]

Soviets: Yo we are ready to do protection or help if you guys get attacked, wanna make a deal that we agree to protect each other during an aggression from Germany?

France: Naaaaaah

[runic ermine]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War

[chilly osprey]

The USSR managed it because they had the strategic depth from domineering eastern Europe and having so much of its industrial potential deep behind its own lines (and being rebuilt further back with the help of the Americans).

Likewise Germany was primarily fighting in the territories of other countries until 1945, which allowed it to give up large amounts of territory at a time if it had to, or survie being forced out of it.

France never had that option, anymore than Yugoslavia did, or Poland.

[runic ermine]

I still think that Vichy France is a Co-Belegerant due to their actions

[manic latch]

What could have been

Soviets really pushed for an anti Germany alliance with France and British but

They just didn't really wanted to

[runic ermine]

There was even a vichy french unit on the eastern front
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_French_Volunteers_Against_Bolshevism

[heady sail]

They were too much shell shocked by the Soviet-Polish war of the twenties. They simply wanted a barrier against communism. That's why they even allowed Hitler to do so much in the first place. They were never going to do an alliance with the Soviets if it was avoidable.

[chilly osprey]

There were other problems with the negotiations too

[heady sail]

The thing is also that every plane that was to succede them was also worse.

[manic latch]

This guy also got assassinated, he was pushing for negotiations back then

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Barthou

[chilly osprey]

Ex, the language of the pact also made it seem like the Soviets were trying to create a mechanism by which they could freely swallow up the Baltics and other minor states if they felt they were insufficiently friendly with the USSR versus other powers.

There was also really no way for the British and French to force the Romanians and Poles to allow Soviet troops to move through their territory.

[fierce sparrow]

@manic latch can you confirm of that supposed recent SU-47 cockpit photos?

[manic latch]

"Recent Su-47"

[heady sail]

Vichy France was officially neutral. In fact the USA even recognized them as the real France. Not free France, which was seen only as a British puppet.

[chilly osprey]

This combined with the fact that the Soviets were feeling out the Germans for a deal at the exact same time played a major role in killing the potential pact as a whole.

[fierce sparrow]

it surface online by the end of January.

[heady sail]

Yeah, exactly. For example the Urss offered protection to Czechoslovakia. But both the polish nor the Czech accepted. They understood it was simply to make them puppets.

[manic latch]

Ah its unknown

It certainly from a prototype however

But no proof of what plane

[fierce sparrow]

I also notice of that AN-2 from the background.

Didn't the SU-47 moved somewhere recently? like few years ago?

[heady sail]

Also I would had that if the Soviets managed to win the war with the polish in the twenties, the Allies would have straight up allied with Germany against Bolshevism.

[manic latch]

Lenin believed Germany becoming communist was the most vital factor for world communism to happen

And it was just after ww1 so Germany was at its weakest state

[heady sail]

UK and France were terrorised by the USSR. Also in Italy the scare of Bolshevism was one of the main thing that allowed the fascists to take power so easily.

[manic latch]

Hitler likely happened because of communism fear too

His job as searching parties to see their alliances

That's how he found his party I think

[runic ermine]

Yeah but they fought alongside the axis numerous times

[heady sail]

Yeah probably. Marx theorised communism for industrialised countries after all.

Also Lenin said that Mussolini was also essential for communism to succeed, and the fact that he became fascist was a major blow. To which Mussolini replied that was true, lol.

[heady sail]

No. They were neutral. They didn't fight. They also got invaded in Operation Anton by the axis.

They sent some volunteers abroad, but that was it.

[chilly osprey]

Vichy France primarily fought when their territories were invaded by the Allied powers/Free French

Vichy did not go on offensives themselves

[runic ermine]

Operation Torch, Syria and Lebanon, Paris, Anti partisan operations

[chilly osprey]

Defensive actions were the most they were allowed

[manic latch]

Vichy is most "good" Axis state in a way

[runic ermine]

No that's probably Bulgaria

[chilly osprey]

In fact, ironically enough the Axis actually allowed them to maintain arms sufficient for defense specifically because of Allied attacks on Vichy territory.

[runic ermine]

The armistice army

[heady sail]

Not really lol. They were really overzealous in shipping the Jews to Germany. So much that even the Nazis told them to chill out.

[chilly osprey]

Ex, the MN would not have been nearly as operational as it was from August 1940 onwards if not for Mers-el-Kébir

[manic latch]

Being in Axis does result to that kinda

[heady sail]

Yeah, exactly, I also would say Bulgaria or Finland, lol.

[manic latch]

Actually what happened to Jews in Italy? I don't know

[runic ermine]

I remember a documentary saying that they were one of few states to not only give their jews to Germany but encourage their countrymen to do so

[chilly osprey]

Jews in Italy were largely protected until the armistice

[heady sail]

Some got deported by the Germans after the armistice.

[manic latch]

Ah

[chilly osprey]

But the RSI did allow the Germans a free hand in deporting them

[runic ermine]

And other joined the partisans

[chilly osprey]

Or helped them

Ironically

Prior to the armistice

Italian controlled zones of France were the safest place in France for jews

Now

[runic ermine]

On a side note, the RSI did a good job with what they had

Fighting

[chilly osprey]

That's not to say that Italy wasn't involved in activities that we would consider genocidal

But the really gross Italian warcrimes are primarily in the Balkans and Ethiopia (the latter mostly before WWII).

[runic ermine]

My great grandfather probably didn't wanna talk about that. Or the war and civil war in general

[heady sail]

Yeah, Jews actually moved to Italian controlled zones of France.

[chilly osprey]

Italian warcrimes are just seldom discussed in general, in the post-war era.

[runic ermine]

However Japan and Croatia were at times, so genocidal that even the fucking SS said "holy fuck bro"

[heady sail]

They mostly did anti-partisan police actions.

[runic ermine]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Garfagnana#:~:text=The Battle of Garfagnana (Italian,of%20the%20Gothic%20Line%20during

Very impressive

[heady sail]

They also distinguished themselves in Anzio

[runic ermine]

True

[heady sail]

But also they were not serving Italy. They were serving a German puppet. We have to remember that. Even if they were at times eroic.

Btw I have to go to bed. It's really late in Italy. Good afternoon to you.

[runic ermine]

Garfagnana (also known as the Christmas offensive) was an offensive conducted by an Italo-German force (the majority of the troops were italian) numbering at about 9,100 facing over twice as many allied troops. They took the US 5th army completely by surprise and captured all of their objectives and retook northern Tuscany. The only reason they did push further was because of allied air superiority. They held those territories until March-April 1945.

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRUzUQo2jGg
So... what do you think? Is this the real deal?

[manic latch]

No clue

Cockpit is off to access

[fierce sparrow]

thats true unless someone manage to access it.

[manic latch]

This is how one of Su-27M prototype looked like

[fierce sparrow]

I was mistaken with the SU-37 but the display and the instruments is another problem.

[pliant bay]

History is written by the Victor's

And of course the real history is going to be suppressed.

[maiden citrus]

that's why we know absolutely nothing about the nazi regime

[remote monolith]

Ah yes history is written by the victors and thats why historiography for WWII in the west for nealry 70 years was colored by accounts from Nazi generals painting themselves to look better and demonizig the Soviets

Realy victors writing moment right there

[desert agate]

history is not written by the victors, history is written by historians who use sources to create as clear an image as possible based on the sources available to them

[remote monolith]

If you want an even older example then consider that accounts of the Peloponnesian War came from Athens, who lost the war

And more notably, the account of Herodotus was basically bootlicking Sparta

[shy grail]

And if all your sources try to cover their ass and blame the one person/people you can’t really get a source from, well…

[strong plank]

Pray tell, what “real history” is being repressed

[pliant bay]

Is it really that big of a problem to question everything?

[remote monolith]

questioning and putting prior knowledge under continuous scrutiny is the pillar of modern historiographical work yes. What's not doing that is making gross simplification such as "history is won by the victors" when not only such things is blatantly disproven by multiple cases across the entire breath of human civilization, it trivializes the humongous works many modern historians had done to make the most objective view possible of our past

as I've said, the accounts of the Peloponnesian came from the losers, the Athenians, who lost their spot as a major polis in favor of Sparta, who became the hegemon of Greece

in another time, much of our knowledge of Genghis Khan and the Mongols came from non-Mongol sources, aka from the people they conquered and defeated

in another another time, the Sea Peoples who ravaged the Middle-East and toppled the Hitites are only known from records retrieved from Egypt, Hattusa and other cities they burned to the ground

its a disservice for the countless people throughout our history that records the deeds of people long gone to say that they're always 'winners' who buried the 'real' history away. Bias is always a thing in primary sources, that much is true since the science of historiography only became more mature during the 20th century, but its no excuse to generalize them as like what you did

[grave ravine]

Herodotus when writing his histories of the Greco-Persian War is quite interesting, he is thought to be writing to a primarily Athenian to try and hold the alliance together and avert the Peloponnesian War, and in doing so focus the alliance against what is in his mind (being from Anatolia) the true enemy, Persia

So he purposefully tries to boost the Spartans

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Zongchang

One of worst persons in history

[remote monolith]

aye, that and Sparta's value does holds appeal to the common Greeks at the time so its in his interests to paint a positive light for them

[manic latch]

But does have interesting story

[grave ravine]

Well, less common greeks and more the aristocrats who are writing the histories

[remote monolith]

true, well point is, yeah herodotus isn't exactly the most reliable source

Thucydides by comparison is a better choice for a more objective view of the Peloponnesian War, indicated by his more 'dry' tone of writing since he was an active war participant

[remote monolith]

also on this its more accurate that history up until at least the 19th is almost exclusively the domain of the aristocracy. History of the small people, the common mover, would only be present in the 20th century

[eternal veldt]

Ngl, this also bears resemblence to what is now "social science" - the latter focusing on the modern society rather than that of the past, of course.

In that sense, I feel history is also ever-changing - What may be seen as indisputable fact today may very well be challenged and overruled by new hypotheses and subsequent discoveries.

[eternal veldt]

As for this, no.not this simple.

https://youtu.be/PTO3JagV8gE

https://youtu.be/yMeYsrDSdt0 also relevant on the subject is the often asked "well, why didn't Bismarck sortie with more ships?"

Worth noting that by the time of the Channel Dash, the Swordfish isn't performing so great anymore - six of them sortied against the Scharnhorst and her escorts, and all six were shot down.

[shy grail]

Mostly because of insufficient fighter escort because most of the Spitfires that were supposed to escort them got lost

The British knew that a daylight strike without other assets to engage distract the fighters and AA like their own accompanying Spitfires and bombers would likely be suicide for the Swordfish

[heady sail]

If you think about it Italy was really easy to defend thanks to the mountainous terrain. In fact they managed to liberate northern Italy only in the last days of the war when Germany already collapsed and started to pull out.
Churchill called Italy the soft underbelly, and that simply wasn't true, allied troops got bogged down pretty fast.

[runic ermine]

I remember hearing that an American general (I forget who) said: " How could anybody call this the soft underbelly of Europe"

[manic latch]

This reminded me

German propaganda leaflet mocking the progress of allied forces in southern Italy, 1944.

Likely focused on US soldiers. Trying to demoralize them by saying they could only reach Berlin in 50s at this rate so their chance of death will be high by then

And this is for Rome version

[heady sail]

Honestly this one is not even that far off from reality, lol.

That's why they kinda dropped the ball on Italy and decided to focus on liberating France and attacking Germany from there.

[strong plank]

That sentence is usually followed by “something something the Nazis weren’t actually that bad and did the holocaust actually happen?”

[manic latch]

Question everything mfs when you question the question everything idea

[ivory ridge]

it starts with questioning something and ends with "but was it really 6 millions tho"

and im gonna leave it at that

or well, not where it ends, that's also just the beginning of an even worse slippery slope

[visual rover]

History of HNLMS Friesland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Friesland

[junior trench]

huh

By late afternoon on December 27, all objectives having been attained, the offensive ended and by the following day the Axis troops were pulling back towards their start lines with the withdrawal being completed by 30 December.[8] The 8th Indian Divisions performed a bloodless advance simply following on the Axis retreat and no fighting took place. The Germans and Italians had withdrawn from conquered territory and on 8 January the Indian troops were withdrawn into reserve.[16] The Alpini of the Monte Rosa Division maintained their new advanced line, 2 kilometers south of the positions they had on December 25, until March 1945.

you're talking about a battle with a maximum advance of 25km followed by a withdrawal of 23km

and I feel like you're kind of throwing the context of a single engagement in the wider considerations of a front that looks like this out the window

total Axis advance at Garfagnana amounted to 2km along the relevant front... and they held these until March 1945 while surrounded by the collapse of the entire front, especially on the other side of the peninsula

green arrow added for context

[runic ermine]

It was something

Considering the attacking force was not the best equipped and outnumbered

And the fact that this was a late war axis offensive

[fierce sparrow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKKtztSwf5Y

[visual rover]

History of HNLMS Evertsen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Evertsen

[manic latch]

Never liked its design

Body is good but

They sloped the face way too much

Now looks much worse without the nose Naturally

[heady sail]

Tbh, there are some theories out there that date the Sphinx to like 12000 years ago. When it was facing the constellation of the Leo.
According to this theory it represented a Lion at the beginning, and later it was repaired by Khafre and the face resculpted in his likeness.

Of course there are many problems to this theory, nevertheless I I think it's interesting

[remote monolith]

its a fringe theory and never truly accepted by most archeologist

[heady sail]

Yeah, I know. But I think it's interesting.

[remote monolith]

for one it was rooted in the desire of Graham Hancock to prove that there was this super advanced civilization in the past from which every civilization on earth came from

the author of the theory wasn't even an actual egyptologist/archeologist

he was a journalist with some funny ideas about how civilizations work

https://www.sci.news/paleontology/ceoptera-evansae-12659.html

oooh new pterosaur

mid Jurassic

Named Ceoptera evansae, the newly-discovered species lived in what is now Scotland between 168 and 166 million years ago (Middle Jurassic).

It is the first pterosaur to be named from Scotland and the most complete pterosaur to be found in the UK since Mary Anning discovered Dimorphodon macronyx in the early 1800s.

The flying reptile’s remains consist of a three-dimensionally preserved partial skeleton, including parts of the shoulders, wings, legs and backbone.

Many of the bones remain completely embedded in rock and can only be studied using CT-scanning.

“Ceoptera evansae is part of the pterosaur clade Darwinoptera,” the paleontologists said.

“Its discovery shows that the clade was considerably more diverse than previously thought, and persisted for more than 25 million years, from the late Early Jurassic to the latest Jurassic.”

The discovery also shows that all principal Jurassic pterosaur clades evolved well before the end of the Early Jurassic, earlier than previously realised.

“Ceoptera evansae helps to narrow down the timing of several major events in the evolution of flying reptiles,” Professor Barrett said.

“Its appearance in the Middle Jurassic of the UK was a complete surprise, as most of its close relatives are from China.”

“It shows that the advanced group of flying reptiles to which it belongs appeared earlier than we thought and quickly gained an almost worldwide distribution.”

the rock where the fossil is embedded

full paper for anyone wanting a closer look https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.02.14.480264v1.full

[heady sail]

Ah, I didn't knew that about Hancock. Yeah, there are many problems about that theory. Like not existing any advanced civilization so far back in the region.

Yeah, I know that the author wasn't an Egyptologist.
For example Zahi Hawass always called him out as fraud.

[remote monolith]

placement of the genus within a (rather tangled) ancestral tree

[heady sail]

The only bit of the theory I liked was the fact that the pyramids seemingly lined up like the stars of the Orion belt. Also the bit about the precession of the equinoxes was pretty intriguing.
But as you said really there are no proof and it's probably only coincidences.
The rest of the theory about an advanced civilization it's all mumbojumbo nonsense.

Another thing I always wondered about is what there is under the Sahara desert?
There are probably some civilizations we know nothing of under the sand.
The whole northern part of Africa was green until 5000-4000 B.C.

Also, there are other theories about the Sfinx, not only the one of Hancock.
There is a climatologist that questions the erosions of the Sfinx.
But Zahi Hawass said that the rock of the Sfinx it's really of poor quality, that's why it's so easy to erode

[visual rover]

https://youtu.be/C-xbChvLwyU?si=u-EYCI5KshQ8xDFw

[manic latch]

The blog of the London Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS) published an interesting material by Tim Lawrenson, Douglas Barrie "Dassault's whirlwind of Rafale orders may be too much of a good thing" ("The flow of orders for Rafale may be too good for Dassault ") that the French company Dassault Aviation is overloaded with an oversupply of orders for the Rafale fighter, which has become a hit in the global aerospace defense market, and it is unclear whether it will be able to provide the corresponding aircraft production volumes /

Dassault's order volume for the Rafale has reached new heights. While overbooking is a good problem, it is still a problem.

Dassault regularly emphasizes its ability to begin delivering Rafale combat aircraft to potential customers just three years after signing a contract. However, the recent flurry of Rafale sales could make that 36-month commitment less feasible and even jeopardize some future deals.

IISS estimates that Dassault's Rafale production backlog has grown to 228 aircraft. This number reflects Indonesia's confirmation in January 2024 that it would take the last 18 aircraft of the 42 Rafale pre-orders announced two years ago, as well as France's order for 42 aircraft in December 2023

[manic latch]

@tough quail

[tough quail]

london

typhoon cuckolds mad

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm8fYo77zpI

[eternal veldt]

@tough quail they ruined the challenger look

At least, certainly feels more boxy than CR2.

[tough quail]

oh god what on earth is that

[eternal veldt]

I think it was unveiled 2 weeks ago

[spring briar]

lower plate still looks like a bum

[eternal veldt]

Some angles seem better than others

But yea, no more turret slant on the sides it seems

I can't see the alleged APS either - probably not installed or whatever

[tough quail]

the sides were always flat but the whole turret kind of swayed back better (and the TES kits made the sides look better)

this is just

wonky

[strong plank]

Is that chally 3

[subtle prawn]

Yes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGH94HoSJ2s

[ivory ridge]

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1755334016633323768

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute) on X

#OTD in 1984, astronaut Bruce McCandless stepped out of the space shuttle Challenger and used the Manned Maneuvering Unit to make the first untethered space walk, A third generation U.S. Navy officer, both his father and grandfather were Medal of Honor recipients.

Twitter · Feb 7, 2024, 8:53 PM

[eternal veldt]

Now that Ive woken up, I think its....this that is putting me off in terms of the slant - (see my badly painted blue contour shape)

Like, fuck me, the Challenger 3 TD looked good

Now it looks like an Ariete raw dogged a CR2 one night and ended up with this

[tough quail]

you're entirely correct

the TD looked fantastic

this hurts my soul

[strong plank]

So challenger 3 is meant to be a rebuild, rather than new production vehicles

Are they not concerned about weight?

[desert agate]

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/naval/13569-surface-fleet-review-carries-hunter-class-changes-in-february-release-say-industry-insiders

Following the review, the program will instead deliver 16 Hunter Class frigates including eight in the new “up-gunned” variant and eight in standard anti-submarine variant, according to the experts speaking with Defence Connect under the condition of anonymity.
RAN bros we are so fucking back

[eternal veldt]

Was a slight increase IIRC

Truth be told, I dont understand why the CR2 is so heavy - Allegedly it goes into the armour, but I dont think the improvement is significant compared to its peers?

TES/OES made it even fatter

[tough quail]

huge with gigantic addon kits, mainly

but most of the stuff they're replacing is being replaced with stuff thats thereabouts the same weight or lighter iirc

[eternal veldt]

It jumps from what

62 to 74 tons with TES?

though I guess M1 SEPv3 is already nearly the same

[visual rover]

HNLMS De Zeven Provinciën (F-802)
“lead ship of the De Zeven Provinciën class Air-Defence and Command Frigate”
Modern Frigate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_De_Zeven_Provinciën_(F802)

[eternal veldt]

Oh and from what others observed , CR3 UFP got beefier

LPF is still

[grave ravine]

CR2 was relatively heavy for its amount of armor due to inefficiencies inherent in the design lineage and the construction of the turret

[eternal veldt]

What kind of ineffeciencies?

[manic latch]

"The current generation of Challenger MBTs, Challenger 2, uses a heavy armour package, raising the weight to 75 tonnes. The new armour will significantly lower the weight to around 66 tonnes."

[runic ermine]

Despite being short lived, the French 4th Armoured division's insgina looks amazing

[unborn pewter]

KRI Slamet Riyadi (ex- HNLMS Van Speijk) sinking after being used as a target ship :D

small pic

[visual rover]

Mmm future old ships must decommissioned and was target for test weapons shooting

[unborn pewter]

i saw a video about the indonesian navy decommissioning 5 ships

and one of the comments told that they should be preserved instead

🤷

[visual rover]

Maybe they try gave one ship to be museum

[unborn pewter]

idk

but like the cost to maintain teh ship tho

referencing to this comment

basically said that those decommissioned ships should be turned into floating museums in other regions

[visual rover]

You know yes or no? One destroyer escort from world war 2 still in service in 2024

[unborn pewter]

woahh

ok cool

name?

idk about taht

not into naval history

[visual rover]

HTMS Pinklao (DE-413) (ex- USS Hemminger DE-746)
the last Cannon class destroyer escort in the world still in service in 2024

[unborn pewter]

cool

[visual rover]

HTMS Pinklao (ex- USS Hemminger) present the ship was is a Training ship/Salute ship

[unborn pewter]

so its not used for combat?

[visual rover]

Idk

HTMS Pinklao is last world war 2 destroyer escort in the world in service 2024

The pinklao was salute ship when shooting with main guns is beautiful photos/videos

[cold drum]

One of the two still operational Lancasters

Very nice looking plane

[visual rover]

The submarines from world war 2 still in service 2024 (just 2 ships in the world) but 2 ships is was training submarine
ROCS Hai Shih (SS-791) [ex- USS Cutlass SS-478]
and
ROCS Hai Pao (SS-792) [ex- USS Tusk SS-426]

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6LGGFxdjEI

[grave ravine]

The Challenger hull is a derivative of the Chieftain hull with composites stuck on it, so coverage is pretty poor for the weight of composites used

Meanwhile the Challenger 2 turret is for whatever reason a giant cast monstrosity that weighs a ton even without the composites, and it's relative height means to achieve frontal coverage it needs more armor compared to other turrets

And coverage still isn't brilliant because the mantlet is quite large, and it's difficult to armor mantlets adequately

I suspect the turret design may have had to do with industry limitations, but I'm not really sure