history

[grave ravine]

The conclusion he comes down to is that the battle basically hinges on whether two or one USN air groups actually hit the Japanese fleet

[wise vessel]

i dont damn

[grave ravine]

Shattered sword is a great book

[eternal veldt]

Hiryu's counterattack would have been interesting

[wise vessel]

hiryu had the greatest chance of coming out alive out of the japanese carriers, right?

[eternal veldt]

Because both Kobayashi and Tomonaga decided to go after Yorktown

Put Yorktown out of the picture....yea.

[grave ravine]

Not really, it was just luck of the draw that she was the one not targetted

[eternal veldt]

Hiryu was under cloud cover

[wise vessel]

so what, any of them just had the chance of being missed by accident?

[grave ravine]

Between Yorktown and Enterprise there were 3 DB squadrons

That means the strike will kill 3 carriers

[eternal veldt]

Akagi was very nearly spared

[wise vessel]

how was akagi nearly spared?

[eternal veldt]

McClusky's division fell on Kaga

[grave ravine]

By doctrine he was supposed to hit Akagi

[eternal veldt]

His squadron should have targetted Akagi

[grave ravine]

And Best's squadron hit Kaga

[wise vessel]

god these just give me so many ideas for alternate history

[eternal veldt]

Dick Best and two of his wingmen just veered off , yea

And only he himself scored the hit

[wise vessel]

so akagi kind of couldve js stood there and prayed?

[strong plank]

McClusky was a fighter pilot, not a dive bomber pilot

so he wasn’t as familiar with the doctrine

[grave ravine]

Yeah he had just transferred over

[wise vessel]

looking up the name dick best feels wrong ngl

[eternal veldt]

If Dick Best didnt just do his thing and followed McClusky, yes

And in that case, the USN would be in a bigger headache

[strong plank]

The first squadrons is meant to take the furthest opponent, the next one next furthest, etc

[grave ravine]

Otoh if McClusky had just gone after Akagi

[eternal veldt]

Because Akagi has an elite torpedo squadron

[grave ravine]

It would not have mattered

[strong plank]

I may have that mixed up actually I’m not sure

but he went for the wrong target

[wise vessel]

say best didnt veer off and hit akagi, what wouldve happened then?

[grave ravine]

Yorktown probably sinks to the Japanese counterstrike

[wise vessel]

then akagi just retreats?

[eternal veldt]

You have two carriers left

[grave ravine]

Nah Akagi probably does alongside Hiryuu to Enterprise

[eternal veldt]

Hiryu with her elite divr bombers

[grave ravine]

And Hornet

[eternal veldt]

Akagi with her torpedo squadron

Pick Yorktown off, no confusion for the next squadron

Next attack would hammer TF16

[grave ravine]

Second counterstrike would have taken longer

With Akagi still alive

[wise vessel]

huh, lots of ways this couldve gone

[eternal veldt]

Its why Midway is discussed a lot

[grave ravine]

Because they aren't rushing, and coordination issues

[eternal veldt]

Many unseemingly little events pile up to the massive drama

And truth be told, the 10AM situation could have been avoided as well if Arashi was just a little more persistent in killing Nautilus

Or, Chikuma No.1 spotting TF16 on the return leg and eliminating Nagumo's dilemma completely

[wise vessel]

so, out of all the carriers, akagi and hiryu had the best chance to survive, not out of skill but essentially random chance and blunder on the american side?

[grave ravine]

Of course if Tone no 5 had not turned home early

Or launched late

The IJN may not have found the carriers until the DBs were overhead

[eternal veldt]

Essentially, yes

The ships were the best targets to hit

As Hiryu was under cloud cover, you select the other ones

Its the same story at Coral Sea

Shokaku was unmasked, Zuikaku was under a rain squall

[wise vessel]

even if hiryu and/or akagi survived, what would it have changed? maybe another big carrier vs carrier fight?

[eternal veldt]

Planes focus on Shokaku rather than Zuikaku

Id personally think the war would be prolonged

In many different ways

Ultimately though, once the US starts shitting out ships en masse, Japan will be finished

[grave ravine]

I'd note I find it rather unlikely that either Hiryu or Akagi would ultimately survive Midway

[eternal veldt]

And thank fuck they fixed the mark 14, so the US subs are basically waterboarding Japan's war economy

[grave ravine]

The question is more that they likely could have inflicted significantly more damage on the USN carriers though

[wise vessel]

more damage like what? another sunken carrier?

[strong plank]

Another interesting Midway hypothetical is

[grave ravine]

Potentially, along with Yorktown likely sinking outright

[strong plank]

what if Yorktown hadn’t been repaired as fast as she was

[grave ravine]

#history message

Parshall has an interesting article about it

[wise vessel]

well wasnt she still pretty banged up when she was sent to midway? i got the impression she was given the bare minimum to be able to operate safely

[eternal veldt]

She's got bomb damage

Flight deck was still being patched up as the ship rolled out of Pearl

[grave ravine]

Restricted to 25kts IIRC

[eternal veldt]

Then she got busted up agakn from Kobayashi's DB

[grave ravine]

And with a composite air group

[eternal veldt]

Fortunately, fuel lines were drowned with CO2 by the smart DC crew

So no massive fires

[wise vessel]

yorktown was already halfway to sinking it sounds

[grave ravine]

Not really

[eternal veldt]

Patch hole up, then Tomonaga thinks its a CV

[grave ravine]

DBs don't sink big ships

[wise vessel]

what was it, she was repaired in 78 hours or something?

[eternal veldt]

Depends on when you hit it with the DB

Akagi gets one hit and eats shit, same with Franklin

Just dont be caught with your pants down

[grave ravine]

Even the catastrophic fire damage can be repaired if you really want

And you have good dc

See Franklin

[strong plank]

48

After Nimitz gave them 3 days

[wise vessel]

jesus

id love to run wargame hypotheticals of alternate battle of midway scenarios

[eternal veldt]

At Franklin's time the US personnel were more trained on DC

Compared to the specialized personnel of IJN

Not sure how many dead or incapacitated after the hit on Akagi, but I think "good DC" can be a bit of a high bar

Lexington feels like a case of Taihou: the prequel in that sense

One that the US could recover from, unlike the Japanese

[haughty osprey]

Also note that Yorktown's repairs were obviously hasty and not comprehensive. There were civilian volunteers onboard the ship helping conduct maintenance all the way up until she was torpedoed.

However, some sources do contradict this statement.

Others state that while Yorktown went to sea with a contingent of civilian workers, they were evacuated from the ship while it was en route to Midway under the expectation that they should not be placed in harm's way.

[dreamy vector]

The pain, those damn chinese has no respect for the people who gave their lives for a better future.

[desert agate]

RAN won't happen and it won't be it's own faction

Even though it by rights should be

[jagged monolith]

https://www.korea.net/NewsFocus/Culture/view?articleId=202562
Glory to the general.

[worn briar]

Imagine if we get this for the upcoming PR

[wise vessel]

what would the stats and skills even be like on that thing

[manic latch]

0 evasion, highest hp, but takes % damage every second because ice is melting, bomber equipment with high alpha but slow reload

60 second reload to use its planes so only good for boss

[wise vessel]

sounds like a great ship

[solid mango]

Random Sovrapposto posting

[wise vessel]

did it work well tho?

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/ronkainen7k15/status/1696157019730849825

Ronkainen (@ronkainen7k15)

Designed by General Dynamics Land Systems, the M10 Booker Combat Vehicle melds recently developed and battle-proven designs to dominate ground threats on the multi-domain battlefield. It has been designed from the start for capability upgrades, based on future operational needs.

Likes

130

▶ Play video

Twitter · Aug 28, 2023, 1:45 PM

[thorn trail]

Hello where can I find the list of ships and their location in Taranto when the Taranto raid happened

[chilly osprey]

I don't know if there's an exhaustive list but I do have a map with the location of ships in Mar Grande

Ah wait, I do have a list after all

Mar Grande, Tarantola Cove:

• 9th Division: Littorio (I Squadron flagship) and Vittorio Veneto;
• 5th Division: Cesare and Cavour;
• 6th Division: Duilio and Andrea Doria (in training status);
• VIII Destroyer Flotilla (Folgore, Fulmine, Baleno, Lampo).

Mar Grande, south of the commercial port:

• 1st Division: Zara, Gorizia, Fiume;
• IX Destroyer Flotilla (Alfieri, Gioberti, Carducci, Oriani).

Mar Piccolo, at the buoys:

• 3rd Division: Trieste and Bolzano;
• XIII Destroyer Flotilla (Granatiere, Fuciliere, Bersagliere, Alpino).

Mar Piccolo, torpedo boat quay and Porta Ponente quay:

• Pola (II Squadron flagship) and Trento;
• 8th Division: Duca degli Abruzzi and Garibaldi;
• Aircraft tender Giuseppe Miraglia (I Squadron auxiliary ship), salvage tug Teseo and minelayer Vieste;
• VII Destroyer Flotilla (Freccia, Strale, Dardo, Saetta);
• X Destroyer Flotilla: (Maestrale, Libeccio, Grecale, Scirocco);
• XI Destroyer Flotilla (Camicia Nera, Geniere);
• XII Destroyer Flotilla (Carabiniere, Corazziere, Ascari, Lanciere);
• XVI Destroyer Flotilla (Da Recco, Usodimare, Pessagno);
• XIV Torpedo Boat Squadron (Partenope, Polluce, Pleiade, Pallade).

Mar Piccolo, submarine quay and other berths:

• 4th Submarine Group (Ambra, Anfitrite, Malachite, Pietro Micca, Naiade, Nereide, Ondina, Sirena, Zoea, Atropo, Uarscieck);
• Other submarines: Dagabur, Serpente, *Smeraldo *(10th Group), Giovanni da Procida (3rd Group), Giro Menotti (8th Group).

Mar Piccolo, other berths:

• I Squadron auxiliary vessels: water tankers Isonzo, Po, tugs Lipari, Atlante;
• II Squadron auxiliary vessels: tugs Ercole, Potoferraio and water tanker Volturno;
• Minesweepers R.D. 6, R.D. 13, R.D. 24, R.D. 30;
• Other auxiliary vessels: tugs Arsachena, Astico, Boeo, Capraia, Gagliardo, Miseno, Noli, Asinara, Palmaria, Passero, Porto Empedocle, Robusto, No. 25, No. 36, No. 52, No. 81, No. 96, San Pietro, San Vito, Sperone, Tenace, Ventimiglia, Volosca, Vigoroso, Porto Pisano, Santo Stefano, Porto Fossone; water tankers Frigido, Gariglaino, Stige, Arsa, Basento, Oristano, Tagliamento; hospital ship Marechiaro; transports Matteucci, Tripoli; dredger Generale Chiodo.

[thorn trail]

I'm curious. Why were DDs and other boats put mostly in the Mar Piccolo (that's the almost lake to the north right?)

[chilly osprey]

Safer and more secure anchorage where much of the naval infrastructure and dedicated moorings were.

The battleships and some of the heavy cruisers were in Mar Grande because they were supposed to be ready to sortie for a mission early that morning.

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2023/08/28/marines-identify-3-killed-in-mv-22-crash-off-australian-coast

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/navalnewscom/status/1696052101409861783

Naval News (@navalnewscom)

Japan's MoD announced the selection of two contractors for the design and production of a new FFM variant to be delivered to the JMSDF 🇯🇵 Story by @japanesepatrio6
https://t.co/I6Qji48mqq

Likes

254

Twitter · Aug 28, 2023, 6:48 AM

[strong plank]

https://www.businessinsider.com/air-force-budget-58-billion-build-ai-powered-valkyrie-aircraft-2023-8

[tough quail]

hoo boy

[strong plank]

3000 black Valkyries of Frank Kendall

[zealous vine]

How could the HSTV-L been improved for its purpose, using technology at the time and closely succeeding ones?

[grave ravine]

so the thing about the HSTV-L is that it was never supposed to enter production or anything

it was a testbed for a variety of new technologies and operational concepts the army had been messing around with at the time

[zealous vine]

Pardon, I misunderstood it

In that case, did it achieve anything significant? Were any findings implemented into future designs?

[grave ravine]

there were some useful findings, but ultimately many of the technologies and operational concepts would not be that useful

they found only marginal gains in survivability from the increased agility of the HIMAG and HSTV-L prototypes

and the large caliber autocannons would ultimately not be pursued

still some technologies would find further use, the supine seating arrangement on HSTV-L was considered to be quite nice

the auto track in the fire control was considered quite useful, and similar systems would find their way onto Bradley

while a fascinating prototype, in the end much of what was tested in the HSTV-L and related programs would end up being developmental dead ends

[tough quail]

well, kinda

not quite as huge autocannons but 57mm+ ones on ifvs are getting tinkered with a lot more

[grave ravine]

oh yeah

[tough quail]

it just lulled after the hstv-l

[grave ravine]

but those are kind of different in design concept from the Ares 75

HSTV-L was envisioned as using large caliber autocannons in the AT role

different from the general trend towards larger weapons on IFVs

[tough quail]

valid

[eternal veldt]

Oh, woops, sorry for barging in

[grave ravine]

@zealous vine at the end of the day, while many of the concepts investigated in HSTV-L didnt pan out, the testing from the program would inform the requirements and design of the short lived joint Army-USMC MPGS program, and when their needs could not be reconciled the Army component would evolve into the AGS program. This would eventually produce the M8 Buford, which would be cancelled in the 90s due to the post cold war budget cuts

[grave ravine]

yikes, what happened there

[eternal veldt]

Kingston, bombed in Malta

Total constructive loss

[somber knoll]

Girl listened to too much Dejavu and went sideways

[warm finch]

T-34 with the turret of a T-62

You're welcome.

[solid mango]

you are immediately the first in my list of people I despise in this server

Thank you for this

[autumn sorrel]

Cute

[wise vessel]

lemme guess, somewhere in eastern europe?

[warm finch]

From what I managed to gather, Bulgaria

Meant to be put in the ground as a bunker.

Funny, somewhat impractical, tactically pretty intriguing.

[wise vessel]

that makes sense, ive heard of that happening a lot with old tanks

iirc the germans even did it during ww2, i may be wrong though

[warm finch]

The more known incident was at Kursk where T-34s were dug into the ground so they were hard to hit for Tigers and the like.

Worked pretty well actually lol

[wise vessel]

i got a theoretical, naval ofc: if graf zeppelin was completed, what would she have done anyways? my guess is she either goes with tirpitz as a fleet in being, or gets destroyed in operation rheinubung after accompying bismarck and prinz

[autumn sorrel]

Nothing, her airwings was appropriate by the fat fuck Goering so even if she was finished, she can do nothing other than sit in dock

[wise vessel]

well thats just disappointing

damn

[grave ravine]

I'd note that even if they had for whatever reason kept around her air group, the ship still would have been useless

Because by 1942 no Nazi surface ship was ever going to sail out into the open ocean out of range of land based aviation

[alpine onyx]

Graf Zeppelin was bound from the start to Goering's whims

[grave ravine]

There was simply no point in maintaining a carrier on the Baltic

[alpine onyx]

And he had little interest in actually investing into her

Hence the rather disappointing efforts to get proper navalized planes, that could be stored properly

Resulting in her otherwise sizable hangar offering only enough space for 40-odd planes

Same story with Weser, really

[grave ravine]

Which is fair because the Kreigsmarine was never in a position to really benefit much from having a carrier

[alpine onyx]

Decently sized hangar by the dimensions

[wise vessel]

well she couldve been completed by late 1940, but yeah if shes completed in 1942 shes fucked

[grave ravine]

Even late 1940 the ship is still of dubious utility

[wise vessel]

im fully aware, and im just trying to figure out what they'd do with it anyways

would they even send zeppelin on any operations/missions?

[subtle prawn]

Use her as bait

[grave ravine]

If it's available in time for Norway it would probably sail then

Good chance of it dying horribly

[wise vessel]

imo it wouldve had to have been rushed for her to be completed by norway

if her progress continued at the same pace it did before she was cancelled, she mightve been complete by ~july 1940

[alpine onyx]

Wouldn't work out, they'd need to first establish cv operstions

Training and all

[wise vessel]

raeder estimated they'd need six months for sea trials and flight training iirc

so then she'd be "ready for service" by january-feb 41

[alpine onyx]

Could at best join the ugly sisters for a voyage into the Atlantic

And enjoy some storms

[wise vessel]

or do operation rheinubung and get annihilated

[warm finch]

Maybe bomb targets during barbarossa?

[wise vessel]

there was a small baltic fleet made based around tirpitz (i may be wrong) when operation barbarossa began

[warm finch]

Like, sail her around scandinavia over to Murmansk and attack the Soviet northern fleet to disrupt shipping.

[warm finch]

Or that lol

Makes much more sense now that I think about it

[wise vessel]

they didnt really do anything though, except mine the ports for when the soviet fleet evacuated tallinn and moved to leningrad

[alpine onyx]

They had a semi large fleet around Tirpitz to intercept a potential breakout of the Soviet fleet

[wise vessel]

large for the kriegsmarine tho

if she did sortie for rheinubung tho, i could see a british cv being dispatched to try and find them, along w hood and pow

if they had any available at least

[alpine onyx]

They sent their one remaining Bisko, one of the two Panzerschiffe, all of the operational light cruisers and a handful of destroyers and torpedoboats. About as much as they could spare at that point

[grave ravine]

Gonna die in France then

Ugly sisters can survive being bombed

[alpine onyx]

Zeppelin during Channel Dash

kek

[grave ravine]

Graf Zeppelin not so much

[wise vessel]

ark royal and victorious couldve been sent to hunt down zeppelin during rheinubung (ark royal much more likely, since victorious was only recently commissioned)

they were both present in the hunt for bismarck after hood was sunk

ark royal was also hunting the sisters during their lil operation before

[warm finch]

You know this whole conversation just makes me confused as to why the Germans bothered with a surface fleet

[chilly osprey]

[wise vessel]

only bc of hitler and raeder

[chilly osprey]

Because most of the surface fleet was built before the Germans were planning to go to war with Britain

[wise vessel]

hitler just wanted big battleships and had some hate boner for the royal navy and wanted to see it at the bottom of the ocean

and raeder wanted heavy cruisers to convoy raid

[chilly osprey]

The reaction to 'we need to fight Britain' was Plan Z, which only comes in 1939 (and is wildly inadequate anyways, but that's besides the point'

[wise vessel]

even if plan z was completed, the british 100% wouldve built some counter warships

[chilly osprey]

As of the mid-1930s when things like the Bismarck and Admiral Hipper-class were ordered, they were in the context of opposing France.

[wise vessel]

plan z relied on the british js sitting there not noticing

[warm finch]

Dreadnought race lookin' ass

[chilly osprey]

Because, again, Britain was not really seen as a likely opponent until circa 1938 or later

[wise vessel]

pretty much, except the british had a much larger advantage at the beginning, with the germans not having built any major warships in the last ~15-20 years and much less ships

the germans wouldve been better off spamming subs, iirc for the cost of the bismarcks they couldve made 200 subs

[chilly osprey]

In the context of building a fleet to fight France, Germany's procurement decisions absolutely made sense.

[wise vessel]

mightve been the biskos + the sisters tho

[wise vessel]

yeah they did, they even had a seperate plan pre-plan z for operations against a franco-polish alliance

iirc in that plan, zeppy wouldve been used for defensive operations in the baltic to blockade the poles

[chilly osprey]

Sirene would be more familiar with the full context of how they would use it, but iirc it was also intended for Atlantic service

[wise vessel]

plans for german aircraft carriers were originally much smaller too

originally something like a 16,000 ton class in 35/36

yeah ik, they mightve also used zeppelin to bomb poland too

[chilly osprey]

Even without much of a fleet you still need a contingency to deal with their forces, particularly since the bulk of your fleet is going to be occupied by the larger power.

The Italians had the same dilemma with a two-front war against France and Yugoslavia.

[alpine onyx]

Most of the Kriegsmarine was built to oppose France, Poland and the USSR

[wise vessel]

then if i recall correctly, the plan was to organize carriers into battle groups with a battleship or 2 + a battlecruiser and raid the french convoys

[chilly osprey]

There was no question that the Yugoslav flotilla could easily be destroyed - but it really depended on what could be spared in the context of fighting the French navy.

[wise vessel]

the french werent the main problem with yugoslavia, it was the british

[alpine onyx]

And for all the memes made, it still held it's ground against whatever the RN had available against it for about four years

[chilly osprey]

The French were the primary foreign sponsor of Yugoslavia for most of the 1920s and 1930s.

[wise vessel]

oh, i see

[alpine onyx]

So it wasn't exactly a failure, it was more of an expected outcome that no uboat spam could've prevented

[wise vessel]

the italians also were able to capture a good bit of the yugoslav fleet anyways

[alpine onyx]

If anything, I hold that a uboat spam would've been overall worse

[wise vessel]

whys that?

[alpine onyx]

The uboats never got to the point where Britain was even close to being blockaded

Even during their prime

The numbers of uboat aces looked nice in newspaper, but the propagated strangling of the UK never happened

[wise vessel]

yeah, that makes sense

at least some of the surface fleet tied up british ships in the atlantic

[alpine onyx]

The surface fleet did manage to keep the seaway to Norway up for significant lengths of the war, and they still maintained some sea control in the Baltic even by the end of the war

[wise vessel]

would zeppelin even be a good convoy raider?

[alpine onyx]

Not really

The surface fleet also did not sink any sort of significant tonnage to get this blockade going

But they at least had the second role of contesting the waters around Germany, in the Baltic and up Norway

[wise vessel]

would zeppelin just be kept in the baltic/norway then? or would she have js been forced along with other warships?

[alpine onyx]

Probably be sent with other surface ships for air cover and recon

But I don't see her making a major change

[desert agate]

because the undersea force didnt do any better

[wise vessel]

if shes sent during operation rheinubung, ark royal mightve been sent after her
do u think she wouldve been sunk there?

[alpine onyx]

God knows, so many variables and luck involved

[wise vessel]

fair point

i can see her damaged during rheinubung, only sinking maybe while escorting a damaged bismarck after the battle of denmark straight

[chilly osprey]

I think the main issue is, like Sirene mentioned earlier, that you're just not likely to get Graf Zeppelin worked up and operational any time soon

It takes time to work up an airgroup, and even more than that, to figure out how to structure carrier air operations in the first place, which they had no prior experience with.

It's a difficult talk that takes navies years - which is not time the KM had in WWII.

[alpine onyx]

Also a task that takes personnel, which is also something the KM lacked

[chilly osprey]

You have the same issue with the Italian efforts to crash-covert liners to carriers during the war.

[alpine onyx]

Which especially showed in their smaller surface vessels

Or even the uboats, which were more and more filled with men that had never seen the sea before

[chilly osprey]

If either the KM or RM wanted carriers that would actually be operational in time for WWII they'd have to have completed their first aircraft carriers several years before the war (it's not impossible for later carriers to be completed and put into operation during the war, but the first carrier(s) would absolutely have to come sooner.

[alpine onyx]

Also just because I remembered only now, in terms of personnel losses the uboat arm way outweighted the surface fleet

[wise vessel]

well the air wing was formed in september 1939, and was continuously training until zeppelin was first cancelled
plus in 1942 (iirc) raeder estimated six months would be needed for sea trials and proper flight training

even if thats not enough, zeppelin could still be completed and go thru those six months in january, and if shes sortied in may with rheinubung, thats another few months for training

its 100% not enough for any other navy, but the kriegsmarine might just say fuck it and send zeppelin with anyways

[alpine onyx]

The torpedoboats were the ones with the highest loss ratios after the uboats, and only had like... a tenth of the overall losses

[wise vessel]

this time schedule assumes the 15cm guns she had were diverted anyways during her construction, since if they werent, it'd take another ten months for her to be completed

if her air arm trains continously from july 1940 (thats when i estimate zeppy could be completed at earliest, lacking 15cm guns) up until rheinbung, that gives them 7 months i think, plus with their previous training from september 1939 its a total 17 months of training i think
i agree that its not enough for consistent, competent usage, but it may be enough for the kriegsmarine since they dont have much to compare to yk?

[chilly osprey]

I have to say, six months is hilariously optimistic.

That's plenty of time to work up a surface warship and get it operational, and I suspect that would be the frame of reference, but it takes years of experimentation, trials, and testing to get flight procedures for carrier operations down. Even with Japanese input, you're inviting disaster in if you try and go on wartime operations within the first year of completing your first carrier. Especially somewhere like the North Atlantic.

[wise vessel]

i see, i just said six months since thats what raeder mentioned in 1942, and i dont have any real other points of comparison for what she wouldve been ready by

[autumn sorrel]

Even with IJN, who have experienced operating carrier, rushing carrier air group have disastrous consequences

i.e Mariana Turkey shoot

[spring briar]

uh oh

do you hear that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EYX8l-OJqE

[autumn sorrel]

What, Richie?

[spring briar]

IT'S THE AUSTRIANS

PHOEEEE

[autumn sorrel]

I’d be more worry had it been the Prussian

[wise vessel]

well yeah, im not arguing that zeppelin wouldve been effective, im arguing that she couldve been thrown into service by jan-feb 1941, and the kriegsmarine mightve taken the risk of putting a green carrier right into operations not long after her commissioning

[spring briar]

the radetzky march is better than any Prussian march

only Prussia Gloria comes even close

[chilly osprey]

Why must you do this to me

[wise vessel]

any operation with zeppelin wouldve ended in disaster if she was actually put in service at this time, be it due to incompetence or the british sending her to the bottom of the sea

[spring briar]

you don't like radetsky march phoe?

[chilly osprey]

Gets hammer

Looks at "Break Glass in Case of Emergency" with emergency Luigi Rizzo

[autumn sorrel]

Well, they’re certainly desperate enough to throw new ship and green crew into the fight early on

[spring briar]

offers you "break glass in case of emergency" with emergency French empire fren

[wise vessel]

yes, so im just trying to figure out what actually wouldve happened if she was sortied, say during operation rheinubung
my guess is that when the british hear the nazis new carrier is out, they dispatch ark royal with hood and pow, along with whatever else otl, to put them down

[autumn sorrel]

None come close to the master piece that is “Soviet march”

[wise vessel]

very true

[chilly osprey]

No accolades for the tyrant with the blood of free men and women on his hands

(semi-joking)

But Radetzky himself can kiss my [REDACTED]

[autumn sorrel]

Certainly they would, problem is that whether KM is stupid enough to Graf as a pseudo convoy raider or sortie her as a carrier task force

Frankly, KM have neither the resources nor the experience to do either

[wise vessel]

well their pre-plan z plan was a task force with battleships, battlecruisers, and an aircraft carrier working together to raid convoys

so thats probably what they wouldve done

with it ending in either zeppelin and bismarck sinking, or zeppelin sinking and bismarck limping into port and either repaired and staying in port until the end of the war, or getting bombed, but thats js my first thoughts

[autumn sorrel]

RN response to that prob gonna save Glorious and Courageous

With a threat of enemy carrier, none of them would be use as impromptu ASW carrier

[wise vessel]

well glorious and courageous were both sunk before zeppy was completed

my best guess, for the earliest completion date (without 15cm guns, since they'd need an extra 10 months for fire control) would be around july 1940

specifically july 12, 1940

which means, if six months are needed for sea trials/training, she'd be fully ready around jan 11 1941

she wouldve been able to then join operation berlin, and if she survives that without major damage, rheinubung

[spring briar]

you can say the same about Eugen of Savoi

[wise vessel]

the most notable change during berlin would possibly be the interception of convoy xh 106, which was not attacked due to the escorting battleship Ramillies, and was called off bc they werent supposed to attack ships of equal strength

[alpine onyx]

If the Kriegsmarine was allowed to progress as planned and promised until like... early 1939

Graf Zeppelin would've made sense

[spring briar]

[alpine onyx]

Since until then they were constantly reassured that the Kriegsmarine would see no war action until 1945

But whoops, be ready to invade Poland within a few months

[spring briar]

Music, funny and good guns, Lissa and memes

[alpine onyx]

Shoudda have Stresemann and Briand change the early 1930s more

For a based 30s and 40s period

[spring briar]

Austria-Hungary not using their Lorenz rifles at a range where the Prussian Dreyse needlefire guns could not hack them to bits (despite the Lorenz being capable of a far longer range than the Dreyses) will never not be funny

"hey should be do a bayonet charge into these Prussian columns which use fast firing breech loading rifles?"

• "no we should probably use the great range of our Lorenz rifles to stay out of thei~ gets shots"
  "awwwe, welp bayonet charge it is!"

rock paper scissors basically

[wise vessel]

is this part of some idea you have, or is it just for fun?

ohh i see

[grave ravine]

Gearing class ship before and after FRAM, a similar program in the US

Fletchers also underwent FRAM, here is USS Nicholas post FRAM

[manic latch]

https://youtu.be/HZImvOzRJLA?si=zn_6IMfQWTTl03zw

Sacred war better

[wise vessel]

oh no
tno

[spring briar]

Not a real march

[manic latch]

Soviet Union if Kuznetsov is leader: Hapi happi happi

Soviet Union if Gorshkov is leader:

Soviet Union if Ustinov is leader:

[manic latch]

@tough quail I'm sorry horse

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/a-10-warthog-moody-tail-replacement/

[tough quail]

this seems like such a weird thing to make an article about

we swapped an a-10 stabilizer with another grounded a-10s stabilizer

okay

[manic latch]

Don't underestimate these articles. Its what makes something more popular over than another in future

Do you want me to give an example?

Let's see

[manic latch]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/royal-navy-once-created-a-franken-ship-from-two-destroyers

Here for example

This wasn't special to Zubian

[tough quail]

tbf it's not unique but it's not an incredibly mundane change either

[manic latch]

Yup

Storozhevoy was similar as said

With more noticeable change

[tough quail]

also molotovs weird ass

[manic latch]

Having Ognevoi's turret and body

[manic latch]

Yeah

Chapayev class ass

[tough quail]

do like, french or Russian or etc blogs do these kind of incredibly mundane writeups too

like

[manic latch]

Now same stuff actually applies to Texas. You know how everyone knows and mentions of her flooding willingly to get more range

[manic latch]

Borodino class Slava did this before than she did against German capital ships. But lack of articles that speak of this make people only know about Texas one

[tough quail]

leopard 2a7 fuel tank found half empty before deployment
successfully refilled before exercise

we did it Germany

[manic latch]

Truu

Well my torment mostly comes from my waifu being Soyuz

Or else it would be much much easier to defend other navies online and to research

But is ok

At least this way history channel is stronger

USN: Regal, Maka, LT, etc

Germany: Sirene, Silver

Italy: Undef..., Phoenix

French: Rich Horse

Japan: hmmm

Soviet: Krem

[tough quail]

unde the martyr

[maiden citrus]

[manic latch]

He is with Marco now

Kindred spirits

[subtle prawn]

I guess to a limited extent you could put Silver in the Japan category as well

[manic latch]

@tough quail Fren

T-72 with French 155mm

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/luke_metro/status/1695936574662570397

Luke Metro (@luke_metro)

I was not ready for the Lockheed Martin Korean streetwear drop

Likes

2324

Retweets

165

Twitter · Aug 27, 2023, 11:09 PM

[tough quail]

you dont need to put the marketing spiel on the fucking shirt lockheed

[tough quail]

peculiar machine

[manic latch]

I think South Koreans joked about it as "takes 500,000$ to purchase, wears off after single wash"

[tough quail]

like f-35s look cool, i'd buy an f-35 shirt

dont put fucking logistics speak on there you losers

my god

[shrewd pecan]

I think they do

if only they sold it in the US

[manic latch]

I have a C-17 shirt

[tough quail]

woe

dassault ratio be upon ye

[shrewd pecan]

it all fits in my closet

[tough quail]

nope

nevermind

i take it back

https://www.lockheedmartingear.com/proddetail.asp?prod=LM330028-F35

you win this round you fuckers

[shrewd pecan]

I am

so tempted to buy that

[tough quail]

same buddy ngl

[shrewd pecan]

only 50 bucks

[tough quail]

the rest of their f-35 stuff is little glass awards and repeats of one design (not a bad one) so not super inspiring

but this

just this alone

is legendary

also i think ive found like

the whitest object known to man

this is a fucking fever dream

[maiden citrus]

was excited until it wasn't actually drinkable

[wise vessel]

(its pure jet fuel)

[tough quail]

alright this is cheesy as fuck, i like it

[tough quail]

you could drink it

you just

might not survive

[wise vessel]

cant believe its called an "external battery pack" bro

[maiden citrus]

I mean that is what it is, I thought it was an actual juice box set with the decorations but it's an external phone charger battery pack

[tough quail]

this would probably work better on a different color but i dig it

[wise vessel]

wait it is?

damn now im sad

[maiden citrus]

yeah, note the milliamp measurement

[wise vessel]

im gonna drink the forbidden juice box

[maiden citrus]

same

[tough quail]

https://www.lockheedmartingear.com/proddetail.asp?prod=LM280006-F35

[maiden citrus]

then down 400 hot dogs to absorb the battery acid

[tough quail]

GET YOUR BABIES IN THE AIRFORCE EARLY

this ones adorable actually

unusually soft looking f-35

[maiden citrus]

friend shaped

[tough quail]

he's just a silly little guy

[wise vessel]

i love military industrial complex merch

[maiden citrus]

if you have something cool, make merch, people like it

[tough quail]

i still want one of these

[wise vessel]

i remember finding chibi versions of ww2 warships for sale, and they were described as deformed by the company

[maiden citrus]

I have a p47 and sr71

[tough quail]

i had a bunch of babby ferrari models but then they melted with my house so now i gotta start over

[thorn trail]

wait that's a golf ball? lmfao thought that was condom packaging

[wise vessel]

ppl who buy f35 merch dont need condoms i think

[tough quail]

MY WIENER HAS A LOW RCS

[strong plank]

the

the supermaneuverable schlong

[wise vessel]

what ships are these?

[tough quail]

this is a much

much scarier kind of thrust vectoring

[eternal veldt]

Duke of York,followed by a bunch of smaller unidentifiable ships that looks like DDs

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2023/08/29/hii-awarded-155m-contract-for-uss-zumwalt-hypersonic-missile-upgrade

[wise vessel]

is there a date for the picture?

[eternal veldt]

August 29th, Tokyo Bay

Too many DDs present at the ceremony, so not going to ID them

[wise vessel]

lmfao makes sense

dope pic tho

[humble mulch]

jfc this is real LMAO

[tough quail]

yeap

[manic latch]

the N757A 'Catfish', a conversion of Boeing's 757 airliner used to test the F-22's avionics. communications, navigation, warning, EWAR, and radar systems were installed, with leading edge equipment housed in a new canard assembly.

[stone thistle]

funky plen

[humble mulch]

kinda looks like a cool hat

[tough quail]

la creatura

[zealous vine]

The HSTV's minimal, slanted turret and "disjointed" barrel design looks really cool, do you all think it could be used in a future AFV design?

[manic latch]

Actually nvm

Swastika is forbidden by rules right

Or is it fine if it's historical pic

[zealous vine]

I think so

Better be safe though

[manic latch]

Yee

[zealous vine]

With the advent of unmanned turrets nowadays, I feel like this type of turret could be ideal. Some modifications likely added in, like sectioning out the ammo with a blowout.

(somehow)

[tough quail]

there just wouldn't be ammo in the turret most likely

[zealous vine]

Fair

[shrewd pecan]

in terms of the HSTV-L there's a few other designs that did a similar thing with the gun

STRV-2000

and the CCVL

in terms of turret configuration HSTV-Ls pretty unique by having the commander be the only one in the turret

while the driver & gunner were both in the hull

[supple sandal]

https://youtu.be/x0792GD8fZU?si=6Ehy9MtFJJXB7kux

Gaijin on their way to buff the fuck out of this shit

[shrewd pecan]

I am generally surprised

its even in the fucking Minnesota Air National Guard markings

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, technically the design of Ka 52 is near very peak, problem is it eletronic suite

[tough quail]

it has a very round nose

good for pat

[tough quail]

i love the little dog

very friend shaped

[autumn sorrel]

Pitbull is friend

Pitbull owner is not friend

[manic latch]

Russian Bias

[shrewd pecan]

it's a bulldog

[thorn trail]

What was the reason why they chose 33kts for the Iowa?

[supple sandal]

Not in air combat

[shrewd pecan]

its jut a excuse to rebuff the pantsir tbh

[thorn trail]

They wanted a bb faster than the 27kts of the SoDak and NorCal right? Hence the "fast" battleship design of 30+ kts that went towards the Iowa and the "slow" one became the Montana at the same speed as the SoDak's right? Why specifically 33

[manic latch]

Iowa do be CV escort

[tough quail]

i have no idea why there's a huge AMRAAM discourse going on with the new F-16, they were never going to drop those in the game out of nowhere in august

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjjFCoiQWoM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_8macWls9o

[rapid junco]

[strong plank]

Iirc the main reason was to be able to engage faster IJN raiding fleets

[supple sandal]

How the fuck are they gonna do it again

[manic latch]

Us air force be like

2 F-14s, 3 F-16s, 1 A-6M, two A-10s

F-18 legacy next I guess

Or earliest F-15 with no Amraam

[strong plank]

no F-111?

[autumn sorrel]

[manic latch]

F-111 with Su-24 would be based update

[autumn sorrel]

MiG 25 will be more based

[grave ravine]

Yet another cursed Blackburn plane

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1696967364489699812

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD 1945, a boarding party from USS South Dakota took possession of the battleship Nagato and replaced the Japanese flag with a U.S. ensign. President GHW Bush and New Orlean Saints owner Tom Benson (who served on the South Dakota) posed with the ship's crew at a 2004 reunion.

Twitter · Aug 30, 2023, 7:25 PM

[chilly osprey]

33 knots is the realistic maximum speed you're going to get out of a battleship of that displacement - the power curve for anything beyond that was Franky frightening and tbh the Iowa's were more 32-32.5 knot ships.

The 'why' came from the need to counter the modernized Japanese battlecruisers of the Kongo-class (capable of 30 knots) while still being well armed and armored enough to fight any other battleship (hence having similar armor and firepower to the South Dakota-class, albeit slightly improved.

The Kongo-class was a concern for the USN because they only things they had fast enough to catch them was their 8" cruisers, which would be woefully outmatched in a fight. And the last thing the USN wanted was enemy battlecruisers running loose near their carriers.

[wise vessel]

do you guys think converted alaska-class large cruisers wouldve been better than the independence-class?

the alaska and baltimore classes were considered for conversion instead of the cleveland iirc

[autumn sorrel]

Prob, but you also have to take the production rate into consider

Independence exist bc FDR insist on getting more airwing out while waiting for Essexes

[wise vessel]

the alaska carriers mightve been something like "mini" essexes, since they had a lot of similar machinery n stuff

[autumn sorrel]

Cleve-class hull is available in number while Alaska is still on drawing broad and Baltimore was still consider more valuable as front line combatant

[wise vessel]

it was a case of them needing as many airwings out as fast as possible, so the cleveland class was chosen bc they were much smaller n easier to make

[autumn sorrel]

Alaska isn't a small ship, they are quite large frankly

[wise vessel]

yeah, thats why i said "mini" lol, my guess is theyd be able to carry something similar to essex's compliment minus a dozen or smth

[autumn sorrel]

If you have to convert Alaska into carrier, you might as well make more Wasp instead

[grave ravine]

case in point being Friday the 13th, when the US burned an entire cruiser-destroyer battle group just to stop Hiei and Kirishima

[shrewd pecan]

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/sensors-electronic-warfare/us-air-force-revives-b-52-jammer-proposal-china-threat

[cunning salmon]

Still gotta extend the life span of that thing

[pallid grove]

Just like the M2, we got to get the BUFF to a minimum 100 year service life

Ma deuce will never die though

[haughty osprey]

The M2 simply is good enough that incremental changes and spare parts will keep it in service for decades

[pallid grove]

My dad got to shoot one off the back of the Nimitz recently as part of a tiger cruise, the video looks like he's having the time of his life.

[eternal veldt]

Conversions in general are not optimal carriers. Depending on how far into the construction you are in (e.g. are the barbettes installed already?), it would take a lot of time to remove existing components and put new ones in instead. The design itself would also not be as satisfactory as a purpose-built carrier, which may mean less planes/efficiency in carrier ops.

In the case of Alaska, I feel a ship of those dimensions would require a lot of work, with very little to gain compared to rolling out a brand new Essex class.

[wise vessel]

there is a design that i can post of it, alaska was seriously considered instead of the cleveland hulls due to their similarities in machinery to the essex class
plus at the time of the carrier panic that resulted in the designs, only one of the class was even laid down

[eternal veldt]

That is also before accounting the deficiencies of the Alaska's hull - it got bad to the point that the ship required an additional stem extension and further work up trials.

[wise vessel]

im not gonna say at all that the alaska hull was a better choice than the cleveland hull, im just wondering how effective it would be in comparison

[eternal veldt]

There are considerations and designs, yes - but like I said, it is not efficient - in both cost and time

For a product that is ultimately probably right in the middle of nowhere - not big enough for a fleet carrier, too huge for the duties of a light/escort carrier.

[wise vessel]

one other interesting design i found is something similar to wasp made in july 1940, no clue how good it wouldve been or anything

it wasnt a conversion tho

[eternal veldt]

What do you mean?

[wise vessel]

this

its in the spring style books

the website i found it from describes it as something similar to wasp, weighing 15,000 tons tho

[eternal veldt]

Those smaller designs were not favoured at the end by the USN IIRC - The Yorktowns already had to make compromises on protection and the likes

The Essex was what the US wanted and could do in the post-treaty era

[wise vessel]

the only time i think they couldve been made (not likely ofc) were during the carrier panic that made the independence class n stuff

[eternal veldt]

Carrier panic is precisely why the Clevelands are chosen

The existing hulls are there with sufficient progress for a conversion

Without massive costs in time and money

The sooner a carrier slips off her yards, the better

[wise vessel]

could there have been any other options, be it real plans or not? im just curious in all the possibilites of that stuff

[eternal veldt]

Its also why you see the US building a massive ton of escort carriers - the "weekly carriers" of the Casablanca are well known enough

But there are also conversions from oil tankers and cargo ships like Sangamons and Bogues

[wise vessel]

i did find an oiler cve design that wasnt used in the spring style books, at least i dont think it was

[eternal veldt]

Truth be told, I think the stuff in those books could be built, that is definitely feasible

Is it worth it to build it/complete it in time to greatly contribute to the war effort? Maybe not.

[wise vessel]

yeah true, i just dont know how many of the options wouldve been worth it

[eternal veldt]

You aloo see this kind of stuff with heavy cruisers

The "improved Baltimore" CA-B was extra thick - 190mm slab of armour, I think

Doesnt get past the planning stage

[wise vessel]

would the baltimore class conversion been seriously considered then? or was the cleveland class chosen pretty fast?

[eternal veldt]

The baltimores were converted

See: Saipan class

[wise vessel]

i mean during the carrier panic

they had a seperate design plan for that time

the first cleveland hulls that turned into independence were laid down in may-august, while the first balti hulls were in may-june

[eternal veldt]

Baltimores required a longer building time, I believe

Clevelands started rolling into service ~mid 1942

[wise vessel]

cleveland was commissioned after 715 days, baltimore was commissioned after 690 days

(from when they were laid down)

ngl thats really odd

[subtle prawn]

I was under the impression the Saipan-class' hulls were based on the Baltimores but not exactly converted from them

[eternal veldt]

Yes, after rereading, based on, my bad.

I'll take a deeper look at Independence in a minute.

[wise vessel]

this might just be a bad comparison though, i could do averages but im ngl thats a bit extreme just for a discord conversation

[eternal veldt]

Light cruisers were not the only hulls considered
for carrier conversion during the President's carrier
panic. A BuShips reference sheet shows a preliminary study of Alaska-class conversions (six hulls
under construction or on order) of 3 January 1942 and
even a preliminary study (June 1942) of an Iowa-class
conversion, although a 12 June note stated that the
conversion would not take place. At about the same
time the conversion of a Baltimore-class heavy cruiser hull was also considered.

Per Friedman's. However, the Alaska conversion was written off due to expected delays and inferior underwater protection.

As for the Baltimore question, it wasn't exactly mentioned, but my hunch is that it would, too, be delayed

[wise vessel]

that makes sense, i see

[wise vessel]

i got curious about this math, so now im doing it lol

[eternal veldt]

Here's what Admiral King said on the type.

this ship will be a most useful unit, and [her plans] are
sufficiently promising to warrant immediate steps
towards the conversion of two additional ships of this
class.

Examination of the prospective dates of completion of the 10,000 ton cruisers ... indicates that it
would be practicable to select two for conversion now
which could be completed at approximately the same
time as the Amsterdam. It is further considered that
there arc sufficient cruisers of this type under construction to warrant conversion of two more ships to
aircraft carriers. If the decision is made now the very
desirable result will be the completion of three small
aircraft carriers a t about the end of the year 1942,
instead of one as now planned.

Amsterdam would be Independence.

Not that the Independences were perfect either -hence the development of the Saipan and Commencement Bay classes.

[wise vessel]

they were very close to completing independence by the end of 42

the class was originally planned to just be 3?

[eternal veldt]

More were ordered in the following days

Some not even laid down yet

[wise vessel]

so, the average cleveland class took 712.96 days from laying down - commission, while the average baltimore class took 759.14

so it might take about 6% longer (21.9 days) (just a guess, no clue if itll be realistic) to commission them, but they may have a few more aircraft in their airgroup

[eternal veldt]

That's not how you calculate them - keep in mind the carrier conversions are not just gutting the ships and replacing the parts - meaning it may not take the same time

[wise vessel]

im aware, but idk how else to calculate it honestly

[eternal veldt]

for example, the CVLs needed blistering

a better way to look at them is how long the independence took to built

[wise vessel]

the independence specifically, or the class in general?

well i did the math for the whole class, and its about 75% of the time it took to build a cleveland (531.56 days)

so theoretically then, based on these calculations, it may take ~566 days for a balti convert

[eternal veldt]

you could do it on average

[wise vessel]

both of my calculations resulted in the same number

how do i calculate a theoretical airgroup then? i just used the flight deck as a % comparison between the baltimore convert plan in 1942 and the saipan class, but ik thats not a good way to do it

[eternal veldt]

I'd suggest you to check on Friedman's carrier book.

[wise vessel]

i don't have it sadly

[solid mango]

Help why blu

[wise vessel]

huh

[solid mango]

Blue stern light

[wise vessel]

it couldve been an identification color? like certain ships will have certain colors based on what they are, but i have no clue, im using wikipedia lol

[solid mango]

[wise vessel]

i got no clue what it would be otherwise, but i dont know much ngl

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1696934751150436543

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1955, an Australian pilot cranked the propeller of an Auster Autocar J-5G training aircraft but was unable to get in the plane before it rolled down the runway and took off. The pilotless plane flew around Sydney for 3 hours before two RAN Sea Fury pilots shot it down.

Likes

151

Twitter · Aug 30, 2023, 5:15 PM

[manic latch]

https://www.militarytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2023/08/30/cheers-marines-theres-a-craft-crayon-beer/

[desert agate]

Took about a dozen aircraft to finally shoot it down

https://youtu.be/2Rj7B47F9Xs?si=hyh8QKmr2gT7m0X7

[manic latch]

@tough quail 30 August 1949. First flight of the Kamov Ka-10. Soviet single-seat observation helicopter, developed from the Ka-8. Powered by a 55hp Ivchenko AI-4G (AI-4V) engine. Flown by test pilot M D Gurov over the Izmailovo airfield.

Landing of a Ka-10 helicopter from the 220th separate squadron of maritame aviation of the Black Sea Fleet on the deck of one of the ships of the Black Sea Fleet, 1952.

[tough quail]

its just a magic flying raft

[manic latch]

Fren shaped Ka-25

[jagged monolith]

https://world.kbs.co.kr/service/contents_view.htm?lang=e&menu_cate=history&id=&board_seq=60753&page=21&board_code=

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b7aazWniEc

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/KosukeGoto2013/status/1697137576090722612
https://twitter.com/KosukeGoto2013/status/1697137796912460040

高橋浩祐（たかはし こうすけ）Takahashi Kosuke🐺 (@KosukeGoto2013)

記事中にも追加挿入しましたが、こちらがイージス・システム搭載艦についての防衛省の最新資料となります。
#ASEV

Likes

155

Twitter · Aug 31, 2023, 6:41 AM

高橋浩祐（たかはし こうすけ）Takahashi Kosuke🐺 (@KosukeGoto2013)

イージス・システム搭載艦最新資料
#ASEV

Twitter · Aug 31, 2023, 6:42 AM

[manic latch]

late 70s LTV project for a light naval fighter. it was to use vertical attitude takeoff and landing to operate from smaller vessels such as the proposed Sea Control Ship. the canard-equipped SF-121 design underwent wind tunnel testing but the project went no further.

[wise vessel]

average cold war project

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/ryankakiuchan/status/1697190620581031936

Ryan Chan 陳家翹 (@ryankakiuchan)

Thread on Japan's Aegis system equipped vessel (ASEV).

-190 meters long
-25 meters wide
-12,000 tons standard displacement
-240 crewmembers
-128 VLS cells (SM-6/SM-3 Block IIA/Tomahawk)
-Type 12 anti-ship missile
https://t.co/OKFUuyCzAC
https://t.co/7RMPHx4Zlj

Twitter · Aug 31, 2023, 10:12 AM

[wise vessel]

what the hell is that

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1697368965050196450

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1998, the Russian Navy Su-33 Flanker-D carrier-based fighter was officially introduced. A variant of the Su-27, the Su-33 failed to generate foreign sales due to the plane's large size and limited payload options. The smaller, versatile MiG-29K has become more favored.

▶ Play video

Twitter · Aug 31, 2023, 10:01 PM

[wise vessel]

are they still a thing, or are they bankrupt?

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f5Y9GHWycI

[digital mantle]

I have a question that MUST BE ANSWERED by anyone that’s been in/are still active in their country’s respective Navy as well as WWII historians:

If we go by how fleets are setup in Azur Lane—Battleships, aircraft carriers, and Specific special ships in the back as the main fleet; Destroyers and varying types of Cruisers in the front as the Vanguard—what order would IRL Naval forces and their country’s respective fleets put their cruisers and destroyers in their fleets?
I like to knit pick at details like this for the sake of keeping things as historically/realistically accurate as possible.

For me, depending on if my fleet will consist of 1 Destroyer, 1 Light Cruiser, 1 Heavy Cruiser—the Vanguard leader to the “Caboose” from left to right—I would have my setups like this:

•[CL/AE], [DD/DDG], [CA/CB]

•[CL/AE], [CA/CB], [CL/AE]

•[CA/CB], [CL/AE], [CA/CB]

•[DD/DDG], [CL/AE/CA/CB], [DD/DDG]

Disregard whether or not these Vanguard fleet orders efficient or practical. I just want to keep it organized a certain way that does a justice to actually organizing a fleet as if the fleet was being formed IRL.

[eternal veldt]

That depends on the nature of the operation and the so called "order of battle". What are your requirements for your fleet's operation?

For example, a carrier task force in the later pacific war would consist of one or more carriers, escorted by multiple capital ships and a large amount of smaller escorting ships (which I suppose you can call Vanguard).

[alpine onyx]

Best to look at historical formations

Consider what each formation was expecting to face

[eternal veldt]

Coversely, an operation in the relatively early theatres - say Guadalcanal - often are simply a bunch of ships thrown together on an "operational basis" - an example being both First and Second Naval Battles of Guadalcanal - in which ships from different squadrons are thrown together into a motley crew simply because there is enough fuel, even though the ships have no experience of operating together.

So the question of "what ships to put in a fleet" depends on the map you are going to deploy in, or what event you are basing on - in which case, agreed with Sirene that you should consult the order of battle page on navweaps.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/index_oob.php

[digital mantle]

Thanks, y’all!

[cunning salmon]

Never knew that a company that makes motorcycle actually built a carrier

[thorn trail]

i forgot what's the uh benefit of having the island so forward vs being closer to the middle or the back

[shrewd pecan]

Asias pretty filled with big companies that fill multiple sectors

Mitsubishi for example is responsible for producing both tanks and ships for the JSDF

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongō-class_destroyer

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_10

While Hyundai over in South Korea is one of the counties major ship builders https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejong_the_Great-class_destroyer

South Korea is pretty filled with these examples since you have Samsung and Kia both working on the K9 thunder https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/K9_Thunder

And once again Hyundai and Samsung both pop up for the K2 black panther https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/K2_Black_Panther

[thorn trail]

Hitachi made the "magic wand" and many military support vehicles for Japan

[grave ravine]

islands farther forward make it easier for the bridge crew to have a good view of the front of the ship, making for better sailing in confined or crowded waters. This is one of a few reasons why the QE has a separate navigation bridge and flight ops bridge

[digital mantle]

I suppose I meant in a general way of going about it where heavy cruisers, Light cruisers, and destroyers are all involved in the one fleet out on an actual sortie rather than anything specific, but all opinions and facts would be appreciated whether through someone’s personal thoughts or the actual strategies talked about in meetings.

I guess another way of asking would be: What ship types are given permission to direct the fleet with leadership/authority to dictate what ship should be allowed to be “in front”?

I haven’t looked at that link you sent in one of your replies to my question, but I will take a look at it before today ends.

I aware of such things as “Chain of Command” but not the in-depth specifics to know whether a commander/admiral is aboard any of the ships or they communicate and direct from afar…

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_kK108wJJQ

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1697671976947503252

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1945, FADM Nimitz visited ADM Fraser aboard HMS Duke of York on the eve of the Japanese surrender ceremony. Nimitz noted the visit was “partly on official business, partly because I like him, and mostly to get a Scotch and soda before dinner because our ships are dry.”

Twitter · Sep 1, 2023, 6:05 PM

[digital mantle]

Is the USS Nimitz named after the guy?

[shrewd pecan]

yes

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ2xOWzkFFI

[cunning salmon]

Just about to watch this lol

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2023/09/01/japan-releases-53b-defense-budget-focused-on-shipbuilding-fighters

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/RyszardJonski/status/1697527894350680425

Junsupreme (@RyszardJonski)

A beautiful concept drawing of the 🇵🇱Rosomak's successor.
If the turret is on the same scale, the vehicle is huge.
It will be developed together with 🇰🇷 Hyundai Rotem Company based on the K808.
It looks really great.
The vehicle will be had a new code designation #Serwal…

Likes

171

Twitter · Sep 1, 2023, 8:32 AM

https://twitter.com/SergePaiu/status/1697544080236966012

Serge Paiu (@SergePaiu)

Likes

1618

Retweets

156

Twitter · Sep 1, 2023, 9:37 AM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/RyszardJonski/status/1697504218838364465

Junsupreme (@RyszardJonski)

On September 1, 1939, Germany invaded Poland. The first city bombed by the Luftwaffe was tiny Wieluń. There was no army stationed in the town and there was no anti-aircraft defense. Only civilians died during the bombing.
PZL P11c was the basic fighter of the Polish Air Force…

Likes

273

Twitter · Sep 1, 2023, 6:58 AM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NAMELESS_JSDF/status/1697369332697719078

I_NAMELESS_I (@NAMELESS_JSDF)

JGSDF's New Shopping List ! 🛒

Common Tactical Wheeled Vehicles
(New Wheeled Infantry Fighting Vehicle)
24 vehicles: 24.6 billion yen

Common Tactical Wheeled Vehicles
(New Wheeled 120mm Mortar Carrier)
8 vehicles: 8.2 billion yen

Type 10 Main Battle Tanks
10 vehicles:…

Twitter · Aug 31, 2023, 10:02 PM

[manic latch]

Only a Polish would call this thing beauty

Solely becuase it's Polish vehicle

Tires are cool tho

[gilded girder]

Anyone has Tu-160 footage? (Preferably in vid form)

[tough quail]

get your camera out fam

i've arranged a flight of blackjacks to airstrike your house

[gilded girder]

Too bad I'm like +300km away from home

[tough quail]

well

im sorry about your house

[gilded girder]

Oh well. I'll just post the one I have

[tough quail]

incredibly based

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1697803435360374979

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1945, a sailor ordered to walk towards the quarterdeck of USS Missouri was stunned when he was greeted by a band, a Marine guard, a gun salute and ADM Halsey. He did not know that he was a stand-in for Gen. MacArthur in the rehearsal for the next day's surrender ceremony.

Twitter · Sep 2, 2023, 2:47 AM

[eternal veldt]

Again, this depends on what ship is available, and what ship has the largest facilities to accomodate the admiral and his staff

Admiral Callaghan took San Francisco as his command ship at Guadalcanal, which seems reasonable at first, but in hindsight was criticised as the ship was not equipped with the SG radar that was present on the other ships, say, Helena.

[remote monolith]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/drought-reveals-113-million-year-old-dinosaur-tracks-in-texas-180982829/?utm_source=smithsoniandaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=editorial&spMailingID=48729685&spUserID=ODcyNjc0Njc3OTc4S0&spJobID=2540133880&spReportId=MjU0MDEzMzg4MAS2

[jagged monolith]

Thanks, towarzyszu!

[fierce sparrow]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/368244534578118658/1086722679190593758/BurningMurmory.gif

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/RyszardJonski/status/1697999481533235492

Junsupreme (@RyszardJonski)

Patria has selected Japan Steel Works Ltd as the manufacturer of the Japanese AMV XP armoured personnel carriers APC 8x8 to replace Type 96.
Patria chose neither Mitsubishi nor Komatsu.
These companies had previously developed their own 8X8 APC vehicles as a successor to the Type…

Twitter · Sep 2, 2023, 3:46 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://timesofsandiego.com/military/2023/09/01/navy-decommissions-another-cruiser-in-san-diego-as-more-capable-destroyers-arrive/

[tough quail]

i love they

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/OnDisasters/status/1697909814859362685

Air Safety #OTD by Francisco Cunha (@OnDisasters)

#OTD in 1998: Swissair Flight 111, an MD-11, crashes off Nova Scotia (Canada). All 229 aboard die. Crew reported onboard fire before impact, which was traced by investigators to the cabin entertainment system. The conflagration disabled vital instruments, causing loss of control.

Likes

161

Twitter · Sep 2, 2023, 9:50 AM

[unborn wyvern]

meanwhile in the USA
"Hey do you know where i can get, hear me out, a Rotary cannon, a Diesel locomotive and a dishwasher?"

General Electric: "BOY DO I HAVE A SUPRISE FOR YOU :D"

[cunning salmon]

"0213 Nagato docked in Yokohama (August 1930, Yokohama) After being designated as a training ship on December 10, 1928, she was summoned by the Emperor when he visited the Imperial Palace and incorporated into the large training unit until 1931. Except for that time, he stayed in Yokosuka most of the time.The photograph is a rare sight of him visiting Yokohama by chance."

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1698098518949237189

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

Witnesses to the surrender on USS Missouri #OTD in 1945 received a souvenir card. Some officials in the U.S. requested the extra copies, but CAPT Stuart Murray insisted they were only for those present. The unused cards were burned, and the printing plates were thrown overboard.

Twitter · Sep 2, 2023, 10:20 PM

[cunning salmon]

How did a tank ended up in the ocean lol

[grave ravine]

They sank it on purpose to make an artificial reef

[shrewd pecan]

Jordan has a field of sunken vehicles

that were turned into artificial reefs

[grave ravine]

Yep

[manic latch]

@tough quail 16 August 1945

[tough quail]

it was me

i defeated japan

and my handy assistant gunner for my ppsh

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1698108059380301935

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

MacArthur wanted his flag to fly on USS Missouri during the Japanese surrender ceremony #OTD in 1945, but tradition held that the flag of the senior naval official onboard was to be flown. Nimitz compromised. It was the only time that two five-star flags flew on the same mast.

Likes

227

Twitter · Sep 2, 2023, 10:58 PM

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1698142586525941938

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD 1944, the crew of USS Finback (SS-230) rescued a young lanky pilot who had bailed out of his flaming Grumman TBM Avenger after the plane was hit by flak while attacking Japanese installations. LTJG George H. W. Bush would go on to be the 41st president of the United States.

▶ Play video

Twitter · Sep 3, 2023, 1:15 AM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1698156229845975178
https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1698164030135750918
https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1698179956222673076

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

As the ceremonies for the formal surrender of Japan concluded #OTD in 1945, MacArthur told Halsey "Start 'em now" which was the order for the final display of airpower. Hundreds of carrier-based planes and B-29 bombers filled the sky over Tokyo Bay to punctuate the day's events.

Likes

334

Retweets

101

Twitter · Sep 3, 2023, 2:09 AM

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

Eager to witness history, the crew of USS Missouri perched wherever they could to watch the Japanese surrender ceremony #OTD in 1945. However, many Missouri sailors missed the proceedings because they were manning antiaircraft batteries in case there was a final kamikaze attack.

Likes

335

Twitter · Sep 3, 2023, 2:40 AM

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

The table used during the Japanese surrender #OTD in 1945 was borrowed from the crew's mess on USS Missouri. The table was returned after the ceremony and was about to be used for lunch when someone realized its historic significance. It is now on display at the USNA museum.

Likes

273

Twitter · Sep 3, 2023, 3:43 AM

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZHq0L50TL0

[cunning salmon]

Imagine eating on the same table that was used for the Japanese surrender lol

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1698338722389925930

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1945, FADM Nimitz decided to visit wounded Japanese servicemen in a hospital as an act of goodwill following the formal surrender of Japan. However, the patients were terrified to learn that the U.S. Navy's "head man" was coming because they thought he was an executioner.

Likes

430

Twitter · Sep 3, 2023, 2:14 PM

[tough quail]

nimitz as usual being a swell lad

[strong plank]

Jimmy Carter in Poland energy

[manic latch]

@tough quail Concrete slabs removed from the Kronstadt embankments were laid on the deck of the Marat as additional protection against the fire of German large-caliber batteries

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1698444172728954996

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

The Battleship Memorial Park in Mobile has revealed that the late Jimmy Buffett donated two of the planes on display in the Medal of Honor Aircraft Pavilion. Buffett, an avid aviator and owner of several planes, anonymously donated a Grumman Goose and Boeing Stearman in 2022.

Twitter · Sep 3, 2023, 9:13 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1698517590832820344

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1940, FDR informed Congress that the destroyers-for-bases agreement between the US and UK had been signed. The deal transferred 50 Caldwell, Wickes, and Clemson-class US Navy destroyers to the Royal Navy in exchange for land rights on British possessions.

Twitter · Sep 4, 2023, 2:05 AM

[tribal mortar]

I do wonder... some ships in AL have cross fleet barrages, and some are real ships and not WoWs made ship...

but I do wonder, what makes this ship eliglible for Cross Fleet Barrage capability?

[subtle prawn]

Whatever kit they feel like giving

[somber knoll]

if you know your naval history, fun trivia, or just writing of the characters, then it's ez

[tribal mortar]

Hmmm... oh okay...

[somber knoll]

like for example

[jagged monolith]

https://aas.org/posts/news/2023/08/month-astronomical-history-august-2023
A bit late, aren't I?
Oh well, content remains cool.

[versed tree]

Crews of the USS Washington nicknamed her sister North Carolina “Showboat” and “USO North Carolina” for spending plenty of time in home ports, and referred to the South Dakotas as “Shitty Dicks” after a few of South Dakota’s crew inadvertently claimed credit for saving Henderson Field with the press back at home. They also didn’t like Indiana for accidentally ramming and shearing off Washington’s bow in February 1944.

And also the crews of the USS Enterprise, South Dakota and North Carolina dislike her crews because of their behaviors being "assholes"

[deep apex]

https://maritime-executive.com/editorials/divers-discover-two-lost-wwi-destroyers-off-orkney

And all aboard the small cargo steamer SS Express died when she was accidentally rammed and sunk by destroyer HMS Granville.```

[fierce sparrow]

The 5.45mm PU-21 light machine gun, which was designed and built in 1978, was the last in the family of dual fed 5.45mm PU machine guns, tested under the “Poplin” R&D program. It was more or less similar to the PU-2 in its overall layout, but featured simplified belt feed, and a new bipod mount with the hinge located above the barrel for improved stability. Gun performed more or less satisfactory during the early tests. However, by late 1978 Soviet Military lost its interest in the program, apparently being satisfied with the new magazine-fed RPK-74 machine gun, which by that time was already entering service in significant numbers. As such, no further development of dual-fed (belt and magazine) light machine guns was undertaken in USSR, despite the international success of the 5.56mm FN Minimi light machine gun, which appeared at the roughly same time. It also must be noted that the first production light machine gun to feature easily switchable dual belt / magazine feed was the LK Vz.52 light machine gun, designed in Czechoslovakia and adopted in 1952.

[thorn trail]

What was the reason Scheer charged back again to the british lines during Jutland?

[cunning salmon]

"It was as yet too early to assume 'night cruising order.' The enemy could have compelled us to fight before dark, he could have prevented our exercising our initiative, and finally he could have cut off our return to the German Bight. There was only one way of avoiding this: to inflict a second blow on the enemy with another advance carried through regardless of cost...It also offered the possibility of a last attempt being made to bring help to the hard-pressed Wiesbaden, or at least of rescuing her ship's company."

might be wrong about it

[autumn sorrel]

Look like an upside down AK-74 mated with PKM

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh6dpfbQqHE

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1698703941075157497

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

In 1942, American workers decided the best way to celebrate #LaborDay was to demonstrate the true industrial might of the United States. In that one day, 150 naval ships were launched or had their keels laid. The ships included destroyers, submarine chasers and mine sweepers.

Likes

180

Twitter · Sep 4, 2023, 2:25 PM

[tough quail]

"man democracy sure is awesome huh"
"no we mean we're just not paying you"
"FUCK"

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NichoConcu/status/1697918632678817985

A-129 Mangusta (@NichoConcu)

MC-27J Praetorian
The Italian gunship.

Likes

449

Twitter · Sep 2, 2023, 10:25 AM

[shrewd pecan]

https://vxtwitter.com/vcdgf555/status/1698746866840588329?s=46&t=SN56KiicdV4OePQu5xNjhw

[desert agate]

saw the 225 a few years ago

was pretty amazing

[manic latch]

Soviets did build quite large vehicles

[tough quail]

him big

quite large

[manic latch]

Yeah like

Largest Helicopter, Largest submarine, Largest airplane

[tough quail]

also the pinstripe under the enormous nose is aesthetic

[manic latch]

Soviet tradition yeah

[tough quail]

not as swoopy tho

[manic latch]

Better one

[tough quail]

maximum air succ

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2023/09/04/navy-veteran-turns-100-reflects-on-world-war-ii-service

[thorny patio]

So I have just read how Littorio was renamed Italia in 1943.

Then had to look up why and that is how I found out the name Littorio is derived from the word Lictor, the ancient bodyguards to roman magistrates... Common seen bearing the FASCES

now I understand why the Italians changed the name XD

[junior trench]

It's also why depending on the context insistence upon that name can be a bit

Inducing

[thorny patio]

Well it's just... Why did the Italians name it something like that in the first place?

Not even the N@%!$ did that... Oddly enough...

[junior trench]

What

[thorny patio]

the Nazis never named a ship after themselves.

[somber knoll]

huh

tho in-game it's quite fitting

as her primary role is to attend Veneto and co-running the Italians

[thorny patio]

It is fitting, just quite eye opening if you didn't know the context

[somber knoll]

Virgin Norman vs Chad ancient Roman:

[thorny patio]

Also the fascist ideology as a whole was based around the strength-in-unity-to-state... The fasces was a bundle of sticks wrapped around a axehead with the intention of strengthening the center handle...

Mussolini co-opted the fasces as a symbol to represent his party's main societal theory

[junior trench]

The dude who wrote the Nazi Party anthem had a ship named after him

A sailing ship

Which still exists

Incidentally

Just under a different name

[thorny patio]

Okay fair, but there wasn't a ship named Swastika was there? XD

A person is a person

I always chuckles at how technically, if your a fascist (i.e your symbol is a bundle of sticks) you could make a stretch and call yourself a... A word in which I can not in good conscience say here aloud

[remote monolith]

I mean, the Swastika is arguably less eye-brow raising depending on the location considering it's an ancient, harmless symbol the Nazis coopted and more or less ruined for everyone on the western hemisphere, while the guy who wrote the Party anthem is...less so

[desert agate]

Italian fascism significantly differed to German fascism in aesthetic, policy and execution

the Kriegsmarine also placed a much greater institutional cultural priority on the former kaisermarine and the aesthetics of the empire, hence its capital ships being all named after other ships or individuals significant to the era

[thorny patio]

Very true, Hitlers Nazi party was mostly fueled through hate and anti-Semitism

While Mussolini's fascist party was... For what it's worth... Truer to form

[desert agate]

bismarck and tirpitz were both major figures in the old empire, and scharnhorst and gneisenau were both ships involved in the kaisermarines only major victory of WW1

the Deutschlands, beyond the lead ship were also both named for commanders of the kaisermarine

[remote monolith]

Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were also more or less mythical figures in Germany by that point, being part of the effort to topple Napoleon and thus being the perfect names to stoke nationalistic fervor

[spring briar]

A person is a person
But it’s people that commit heinous crimes

Is it not

[thorny patio]

Actually, If I remember what I read, Il duce's Italian government wasn't really on board with the Nazis superior race theory... Given they... Yah know..m weren't considered part of said superior race

[desert agate]

im not implying that the kreigsmarine were somehow less fascist, simply that unlike the heer or luftwaffe, they looked a lot more towards the old empire for its inspiration

probably because the German experience in WW1 for the army and air forces were both... lacking in glory

[remote monolith]

which was unsurprising because a big part of the high command owed their careers to the old empire, or even further still, the old Prussian nobility system

[desert agate]

the overall institutional culture of the German Navy from WW1 to the interwar years to the beginning of WW2 didn't really shift all that much

[autumn sorrel]

One way to put that is that KM never really on board with Nazism bc they have their own tradition and heritage while Luftwaffle is very much party ideology driven

[thorny patio]

Mostly because the Nazis focus was on restructuring the army and rebuilding the air force. The navy probably didn't need reshuffling because their command core was still intact, if not without ships at least

[desert agate]

the kriegsmarine was very much on board with nazism

[autumn sorrel]

Hmm, maybe I mistaken them with Regia Marina

[thorny patio]

Eh, it's debatable

Dönitz was more into the cause than not

[somber knoll]

Basically

[desert agate]

a single commander does not make a fleet

[somber knoll]

As much as I like Raeder, his lackeys were... not so much.

even then the GrandeAdmirral was bugged by his own issues

[desert agate]

an organisation cannot send thousands of young men into tiny metal tubes to die with almost no chance of escape without any significant mutinies of note without some heavy authoritarian brainwashing

[remote monolith]

the Kriegsmarine wasn't exactly Nazified per se the way the Luftwaffe was, but it doesn't change that they were fully ok with Nazi policies or policymakers and never really made a fuss about it throughout the war years, and they still have indirect roles in the Holocaust by virtue of things like being the recipient of looted items from the victims

[somber knoll]

wasn't much of a sweet talker as Goering and to a lesser extent, Doenitz were

[spring briar]

Donitz proposed using the entire Kriegsmarine to evacuate the soldiers in the Courland pocket

Let that sink in

[desert agate]

https://tenor.com/view/let-that-sink-in-let-that-sink-in-meme-let-that-sink-gif-26164212

what does it want

[junior trench]

If you want to look for part of the Nazi German government which never really got totally onboard, you're, amusingly, best off looking at the intelligence agencies.

[autumn sorrel]

Your blood

[remote monolith]

Canaris and his funny antics I tell ya

[thorny patio]

Honestly, at the end of the day, they all went along with it. If there were enough people who truly didn't like the Nazis, enough dislike that they felt someone should stop them, then the military would have kept staging coup after coup... But that never happened because the people who were against the Nazis were either too low-rank to make a huge difference without jeopardizing their own safety, or so high up that to do so and risk failing would mean loosing EVERYTHING.

[junior trench]

The absolute meme that is the Abwehr's semi-organized "you're a spy now, you're free to cross the border" program for Jewish refugees and other dissidents

[thorny patio]

They were all at fault

[remote monolith]

although even within the Abwehr Canaris's group was a small minority

[thorny patio]

Ah yes, the abwher... Like the kid on your basketball team who's so bad he's probably just wanting to be on the other team

Don't forget how every spy working within England was made into a DOUBLE AGENT

[spring briar]

Let’s change topic

[thorny patio]

Also, not that I like the man, tho would raeder or dontiz even be slightly applicable names for modern ships? XD

[spring briar]

Nazis are boring

[thorny patio]

Nein

[autumn sorrel]

Agree, MAS 36 where

[thorny patio]

Dah, okay

[autumn sorrel]

I like MAS 36

[spring briar]

Yus

[junior trench]

Finger trap bayonet time

[spring briar]

Hehe

[desert agate]

when rifle bayonet
is compatible with 2 rifles at once

[autumn sorrel]

Design soldier proof gun challenge, impossible

[desert agate]

😳

[remote monolith]

https://www.popsci.com/science/rhabdodontid-dinosaur-europe/

[spring briar]

Making something human proof is
Particularly difficult

[remote monolith]

bah, dry spell for exciting Paleontological discoveries lately

so this is the best that I have for now

[thorny patio]

Can we talk about the Gustav?

Or the maus?

I love ze maaaaus

[autumn sorrel]

I swear, there must be at least an attempt from soldier to play with live grenade, just for the thrill of it

[autumn sorrel]

The Rat is overrated

[remote monolith]

also, the Rhinoceros family over the years

[thorny patio]

Nein, the ratte is something different than the maus

[autumn sorrel]

“Horse” Rhino when

[autumn sorrel]

The Mice then

[remote monolith]

depends if equines become extinct and the Rhinocerotidae family somehow managed to fill their niche

[thorny patio]

The ratte was absolutely gargantuan in size, legit was considered a landkruezer

[remote monolith]

they're both Perissodactyls, so not that far off form each other

[autumn sorrel]

Imagine, Rhino cavalry

[thorny patio]

I mean... There was elephant cavalry

[remote monolith]

cool af, but with their temper it's difficult to do

[remote monolith]

and those were only possible on the smaller kinds, with the African Bush Elephant being all but impossible to tame

[desert agate]

we gotta bring back war elephants

[autumn sorrel]

You remember that scene from “300”? It would be cool as fuck had there was a rider

[desert agate]

throw some ATGMs on the fuckers

[thorny patio]

You know what was insane?

The US was once offered the sale of actual war elephants

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, it certainly can’t be worse than Elefant

[thorny patio]

I have no fuckin clue as to why... But it happened... Sometime around the civil war

The United States could have had WAR ELEPHANTS

[autumn sorrel]

Likely to act as Mule

[desert agate]

war elephants charging the confederates

would be based

[autumn sorrel]

Elephant is really good as a pack animal

[thorny patio]

God imagine just being a southerner who's never even seen one of those fuckers

[autumn sorrel]

It would be bloody, 12pdr gun with shell shot, canister shot gonna make short work of it

[remote monolith]

not war elephants per se, but a some white elephants from Siam, which was a symbol of great gift then for mainland Southeast Asian powers

[thorny patio]

Nah what we could have used is war EMUS

[autumn sorrel]

[thorny patio]

imagine Ulysses s grant riding in on a decked out Emu

[autumn sorrel]

Release the Emu, they will genocide everything

[desert agate]

have you ever actually seen an emu

[remote monolith]

white elephants were quite rare so to have them was a sign for prestige (and to sometime covertly punish the recipient because you can't refuse the gift if you're not equal to the king, you can't use them for labor because they're prestige animals and not allowed to be worked off, and you can't give them away to someone else)

[desert agate]

their legs cants support anything which is why theyre so small

[autumn sorrel]

Isn’t it an oversized chicken

[spring briar]

Both the Gustav and Maus are big piles of shit that wonderfully demonstrate that the only true strength of “german engineering” is making something so comically large and impractical, yet at its core incredibly primitive and uninteresting

[remote monolith]

miniature maniraptorans

[desert agate]

theyre only dangerous if you drive into them

[autumn sorrel]

So, a chicken

[remote monolith]

well, not really, they're somewhere on the medium size for avian dinosaurs admittedly

[thorny patio]

Okay so not ridable, but release them onto the enemy to disorient

[desert agate]

the only bird that could serve a combat force is a cassowary

[remote monolith]

basically

[autumn sorrel]

Question is, does it taste like it?

[desert agate]

these birds are incredibly dangerous

[remote monolith]

false, chickens and pigeons are more effective

have you seen their shit man? eugh

[autumn sorrel]

What? They have claws?

[desert agate]

never actually tried emu tbh

[spring briar]

Guns exist

[remote monolith]

aye

big ones

[autumn sorrel]

Ever think of try one

[thorny patio]

Okay... Better animal then, and the southerners would have plenty of them!

GATORS

[desert agate]

they have claws and a horn, basically built like a tank, cause fatalities regularly up in FNQ

[remote monolith]

all ratites have huge claws

[desert agate]

ive had kangaroo and crocodile

[remote monolith]

hence why an ostrich can disembowel a lion if it gets lucky

[autumn sorrel]

Damn, are they legal to hunt?

[desert agate]

its legal to eat emu too

[desert agate]

no, endangered species

[remote monolith]

no, cassowaries are endangered animals

[thorny patio]

Everyone! We must all get feather hats!

[desert agate]

they only kill them if individuals target humans and hang around population centres, and even then they try to relocate them

[autumn sorrel]

Damn

[remote monolith]

now, ostritches are far bigger than a cassowary, but same principle

[spring briar]

Don’t get kicked

Basically has a warhammer as a foot

[thorny patio]

Warhammer you say...

[autumn sorrel]

Hunting them sound fun

[thorny patio]

BROTHA

[autumn sorrel]

No, don’t start it here. I gonna spam autogun if you do

[remote monolith]

ostritch meat is actually legal yknow

[desert agate]

the populations were devastated by cyclones a few years ago

[remote monolith]

so is their gargantuan eggs

[spring briar]

Would a knight win against a dromeasaurus

[autumn sorrel]

I had one a few yr back

[remote monolith]

which dromaeosaur first

[spring briar]

Thinking of a human sized one

Hmmm

A juvenile deinonychus

[remote monolith]

a knight can easily snap a Velociraptor's neck in, hell you don't even need the armor, the average American can snap the little shit in half

[autumn sorrel]

Can knight use polearm?

[spring briar]

Velociraptor is too small

Wouldn’t be fair at all

[thorny patio]

NOT MY BOI BLUE

Blu never did anything wrong

XD

[autumn sorrel]

Blu is a chicken

Blu taste good

[remote monolith]

juvenile deinonychus is...probably likely for a knight

[autumn sorrel]

Honestly, even if somehow Dino return, I don’t see them somehow take over our place on the food chain

[thorny patio]

Question... A T-Rex... Could one ride it?

[spring briar]

I’d still see a knight win against an adult
If armed with the right weapon

[autumn sorrel]

Lobotomized it first

[thorny patio]

I mean... How easy with modern tech would it be to control a T-Rex population?

[remote monolith]

mmm, right, it's basically cassowary wrangling but a lot more dangerous

[remote monolith]

laughably easy

[spring briar]

Yes but you have armor

Armor vs basically organic claws

[junior trench]

even if you changed it to paleolithic, the answer would be "absurdly easy"

[spring briar]

Which can’t hope to even dent it

[thorny patio]

Seriously?

[remote monolith]

people should remember that we've been forcing megafaunas to extinction left and right for several thousand years now

[junior trench]

something something you can track the extinction of megafauna independently of ice age fuckery simply based upon when people arrived

[remote monolith]

with nothing better but a pointy stick

[spring briar]

Humans have evolved beyond “apex predator”

[autumn sorrel]

Me bringing .50cal to cull the T-Rex population

[remote monolith]

the advent of guns make it possible for the average joe to kill dozens upon dozens of animals by themselves in a day

[autumn sorrel]

Literally there are dude who hunt hog with .50

[junior trench]

tl;dr megafauna dies out with no regard for the freezing and warming cycles we know of, but all those die outs correlate with the arrival of humans

[thorny patio]

Okay so by that logic they'd be manageable, maybe even tamable within a few generations

[spring briar]

Watch how we win
With our ability to sweat, use of tools and our opposable thumbs, our great intellect and our bipedalism

[remote monolith]

tameable? Yeah no

[junior trench]

they're going extinct

[remote monolith]

why do you think elephants, rhinos, hippos and other megafaunas are still untamed after millennia

[thorny patio]

I say within a few generations,

[junior trench]

and it won't take very long

[thorny patio]

Fair

[autumn sorrel]

Elephant is fucking docile and it still fucking hard to tame them

How the fuck you gonna tame a T-rex

[remote monolith]

docile? Haha no, they're vengeful fucks

[junior trench]

humans have a very simple response to apex predators which don't learn their place

[desert agate]

Australian and New Zealand megafauna all went extinct within a few thousand years of humans arriving

[thorny patio]

PIRGE

[junior trench]

https://tenor.com/view/kill-steve-harvey-family-feud-yes-kill-gif-22934983

[spring briar]

Outcompete everything in their own niche so hard they go extinct

[autumn sorrel]

I mean, unless you being a dick first and being sloppy by not wiping out the whole herd

[remote monolith]

soft reminder that male African elephants tend to rape and kill rhinoceros for fun when they're at their most aggressive

[junior trench]

the wolf species which got domesticated won the fucking lottery

[desert agate]

they even killed the mega wombat

[junior trench]

domestic cats on the other hand... are kind of special

[remote monolith]

no, even without prior aggressions elephants sometimes just go on a rampage when they want to

[thorny patio]

WHAT TF IS THAT NOSE 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[desert agate]

cats basically domesticated themselves

[junior trench]

elephant testosterone rage

[autumn sorrel]

You mean they stumble on a village and rampage?

[junior trench]

the domestic cat, to be fair, didn't come from an apex predator, but their self-domestication and arguably co-domestication of humans is of interest

[remote monolith]

not just village, but other animals that happens to be nearby can be unfortunate victims to a roided bull

[junior trench]

meanwhile dogs just

[autumn sorrel]

I remember a while back, the army was call in on the Central Highland due to Elephant rampaging

[junior trench]

hit the fucking jackpot

[thorny patio]

Then u have some big ass mammals like bears who seem to not know they are high up on the food chain

[junior trench]

er

[spring briar]

Pre contact dogs

[autumn sorrel]

Cat just being lazy fuck

[junior trench]

there's a reason cave bears are fucking gone

[thorny patio]

I dunno they always seem more curious than violent

[spring briar]

Get outcompeted

[junior trench]

the bears which didn't learn to not compete with humans died

[autumn sorrel]

Seriously, how the fuck we get so subservient to cat

[junior trench]

cats protect grain

[remote monolith]

either way the easiest dinosaurs to tame are the smaller ones, which was why we now have all these cute pet birds