stone oak
We got differnt setups for fires
#history
tough quail
missouri is just a very stinky ship
strong plank
Wisconsin’s got a plaque detailing how her sailor drilled NBC procedures in preparation for the gulf war
silver crest
josef bily is pretty based ngl
he refused to wear a blindfold during his execution and his last words were “Long live the Czechoslovak Republic! Dogs, fire!"
cinder escarp
Wisconsin’s got a plaque detailing how her sailor drilled NBC procedures in prep...
NBC is a valid concern there, but lorf at the idea of a chemical warhead silkworm
tribal mortar
How large is a tank main gun compared to the guns used on ships (aa gun, dd main gun, cl main gun, etc.)?
eternal veldt
Of what period?
tribal mortar
WW2
eternal veldt
Taking the US as example then, the ubiquitous M4 Shermans are mostly armed with 75mm M3s or 76mm M1s, or in some cases, the 105mm Howitzer
On a small ship, let's say a destroyer escort (DE) like Cannon-class, their primary armament is also a 76mm/50 caliber gun
But said DEs could also carry up to 127mm as their primary armament, as with the John C Butlers/Rudderows
And going up from there, you have light cruisers - anything from 127-152mm are the US' favoured choices of primary armament, with the 127 as secondary armament.
Then, up another notch, you have the heavy cruisers - 203mm primary, 127 secondary. For even heavier/larger cruisers like Alaska, they go up to 305mm.
and finally, the exciting battleships - US operated ships ranging from 305mm up to 406mm - as seen on the last US battleships, the Iowa class. These ships also carried 127mm as their secondary armament, albeit with different calibers on different ships.
tribal mortar
Oh. Tyty.
eternal veldt
Each nation differs, but the largest ship mounted naval rifle goes to the Japanese with 460mm on the Yamato class.
As for AA, the US opted to use the 12.7/20mm as the light AA, 28/40mm as medium, and 127mm as heavy AA battery. The 127mm was further augmented by the introduction of VT fuzes later in the war.
supple sandal
The first mini-skirts in Vilnius, Lithuania, 1965
Super assault fast dreadnought carrier
We can go way worse
eternal veldt
solid mango
Well that solves my problem of it looking like its ready to harvest my soul
subtle prawn
warm finch
wtf happened to that US flag
frozen kestrel
Well that solves my problem of it looking like its ready to harvest my soul
I am not sorry
frozen kestrel
Quick question: If a photo was taken at a Kriegsmarine naval base around 1943-1944, would the color of the photo be black and white or full folor?
eternal veldt
Colour photos are already available back then, albeit in short supply
This picture of Idaho in 1942, for example, is true coloured and not added later
So its a matter of "is it available at the moment"
maiden citrus
deep apex
Also the fact that color film was more prone to damage overall, including fires.
This is why so many pieces of film have been destroyed and are referred to as lost media.
Because the original and only copy was lost in something like an archive fire
eternal veldt
Some reel footages show information contrary to what we know, at least when it comes to paints and camouflage as well.
Whether that is a damaged reel, or the ship appeared in such manner, is up to debate.
deep apex
Could be also just shitty res
eternal veldt
Unlikely, when nearly everyone else in the formation has the same standard.
The only deviation other than the pictured destroyer is Richelieu.
deep apex
No I mean like the film
Like it's not good quality
solid mango
I am not sorry
You need to be because the mount in this image is a Mark 32, not a Mark 28 used by the Iowa class 
U r now the get keel
frozen kestrel
Very similar from a visual standpoint, but I understand
Though it is rather fitting considering New Jersey always does that :3 face
thorn trail
Unlikely, when nearly everyone else in the formation has the same standard.
idk why but my first thought at the mass of people at the bottom looks like some kind of sea creature like a coral or smth
true sonnet
tbh me too lol
somber knoll
gloomy current
yes that is indeed a bote
shrewd pecan
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
runic ermine
tough quail
im terrible at names but i love he
shrewd pecan
god its so dorky
manic latch
I think it's literally a cute joke design, no name too
gloomy current
Does anyone have a better quality version of this image? couldnt find anything with reverse search
autumn sorrel
Does anyone have a better quality version of this image? couldnt find anything w...
Design X? Ask Krem, he post a better quality one before Kursk event
gloomy current
@manic latch i am in dire need of Project X documentation, got anything higher quality so i can properly zoom in?
manic latch
<@688903088819404825> i am in dire need of Project X documentation, got anything...
gloomy current
My Kursk simping shall now reach new heights
gloomy current
was the flea especially designed for her, or was it a previous design?
gloomy current
also i presume this drawing cuts off the waterline?
manic latch
also i presume this drawing cuts off the waterline?
Yup
manic latch
was the flea especially designed for her, or was it a previous design?
The Blokha design was more of a submersible torpedo boat designed by the engineers at TsKBS-1. This design appears to be rather simple in nature and was to be mounted on swing-out davits on Soviet warships. Two blokhi would be carried by the Project “X” Large Cruiser project then under development. This was a very large vessel, carrying up to nine floatplanes, making it a hybrid seaplane carrier-cruiser
autumn sorrel
Her mini subs she use during her skill
Aren't those semi submersible?
manic latch
Aren't those semi submersible?
In 1939, another midget submarine design was submitted as the M-400 by the same designer as the Blokha, and also known as the Flea. This was a more advanced submersible torpedo boat intended to operate as either a semi-submerged torpedo boat or a full-fledged midget submarine. Information of both “Blokha” projects is currently lacking
gloomy current
im trying to make Kursk in ftd, and its rather difficult with the lack of 3d reference material
but the higher quality images are a big help
manic latch
@tough quail Project 1231
I call it "Khrushchev's dream"
originated with the Soviet premier, Nikita Khrushchev, who during a visit to a naval base in Balaklava saw submarines and missile boats next to each other. He conceived of an entire fleet able to submerge and thus ensure secrecy in the event of nuclear war. Khrushchev originally ordered the creation of a vessel that could fly, swim and dive. The designers convinced Khrushchev that the construction of a practical aircraft with the surface and sub-surface characteristics he required was impossible. Project 1231 built on the results of work on Project 662, a previous submersible ship: in particular, experience of Project 662 led to the use of hydrofoils for greater surfaced speed.
Work on Project 1231 was ceased after Khrushchev was deposed in 1964. No prototype was built and the design was closed. According to E. A. Aframeev, Project 1231 had no chance of practical implementation, despite the herculean efforts of designers.
tough quail
whacky corn man
manic latch
All forms
gloomy current
Your brain on corn syrup
autumn sorrel
So, what was NATO and Soviet solution to counter wake homing torp?
I remember a US sailor said that his ship was trained to go full speed when a wake homing torp is spotted, try to outrun the torp until run out of juice.
manic latch
So, what was NATO and Soviet solution to counter wake homing torp?
About 1967, the U.S. Navy deliberately aborted a wake-following weapon because no countermeasure could be developed.
The Soviets apparently adopted wake-following sometime in the 1960s. It first attracted Western attention when it was associated with their huge 65-centimeter (26.5-inch) thermal torpedo. Recent Russian sales literature makes it clear that all their antiship torpedoes use wake-following, and the Soviets never
understood why the United States did not adopt the same technique. Presumably the Soviets were willing to produce a weapon that they could not counter because they considered it more important to counter Western surface ships than to protect their own.
autumn sorrel
Wake homing is scary, once it lock on, you’re dead
I know CAT was developed post Cold War but not about what they intend to do when it was in Cold War
spiral cedar
https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/browse?type=author&authority=907b8620-2109-49aa-93b6-6e3f3a72b2c2
The Australian National University's open access library program has lots of lectures and ebooks available for free reading. Here's the stuff for Rafe de Crespigny, who writes extensively about the Later Han to Three Kingdoms period, if anyone is interested
Also, one wake-homing countermeasure that I'm curious about is the idea of turning a full circle to trick the torpedo into running along the circular wake
autumn sorrel
remote monolith
thinking about that one Allosaurus fossil who got its groin area pierced by a Stegosaurus thagomizer
here it is, direct hit to the balls
poor thing
Analysis of an Allosaurus fossil from southern Wyoming shows that the giant meat-eater died from a painful wound that appears to be unique in the fossil record: a deep stab to the crotch, delivered by the spiky tail of a stegosaur.
The injury is “emphatic and unambiguous” evidence of a fatal encounter between Allosaurus and the stocky herbivorous Stegosaurus, said paleontologist Robert Bakker, who made the find with his colleagues while studying the 150-million-year-old allosaur on display in a Wyoming museum.
Close inspection revealed that the meat-eater had suffered a “terrible wound” directly to the pubis, the distinctive boot-shaped bones that form the lower-front portion of the pelvis.
The deep, cone-shaped wound completely penetrated the solid pubic bone — a sign, Bakker said, of a powerful blow.
maiden citrus
remote monolith
artist rendition of the incident
solid mango
Ouch
strong plank
US Marines wearing the somewhat rare “T-pattern” MOUT camouflage during Operation Urban Warrior, 1999
quasi ridge
Urban warrior? 1999? Where is that
shrewd pecan
US Marines wearing the somewhat rare “T-pattern” MOUT camouflage during Operatio...
where's the guy with the skateboard?
most important image from that exercise
shrewd pecan
Urban warrior? 1999? Where is that
quasi ridge
So basically training for a stalingrad i see
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
remote monolith
In Paul's 2022 paper, "The Tyrant Lizard King, Queen and Emperor: Multiple Lines of Physiological and Strategic Evidence Support Subtle Evolution and Probable Specification Within the North American Genus In Tyrannosaurus“ 。he listed the measurement results of the femoral circumference of all specimens of Tyrannosaurus rex that had preserved their femurs. The table shows that Cope's femur circumference has reached an astonishing 630mm, far exceeding Sue and Scotty's 580mm and 590mm, which also dwarfs Giga's 520mm femur circumference (which is already the largest among theropods except for Tyrannosaurus Rex) and makes it the only theropod with a femur circumference exceeding 600mm.
Unless there is a serious measurement error, Cope is highly likely to be a much larger Tyrannosaurus Rex than Sue and Scotty. If the measurement is accurate or the error is small, Cope is also likely to completely end the discussion on who is the largest theropod. Because if the same weight measurement method is used, giga needs to grow to over 14m, or even close to 15m, in order to reach Cope's weight. And this is almost impossible. For Spinosaurus, the same situation is similar. To achieve such a weight, according to current estimates, it would be almost impossible to perform amplification
TLDR, we've been sitting on a humongous Tyrannosaurus specimen that's been overlooked for decades
maiden citrus
much larger than sue is wew
remote monolith
it's a phat one, but largely overlooked since its pretty incomplete
strong plank
“Ground-launched hellfires aren’t real, they can’t hurt you”
manic latch
“Ground-launched hellfires aren’t real, they can’t hurt you”
Hah
subtle prawn
tough quail
“Ground-launched hellfires aren’t real, they can’t hurt you”
weak
you are like little baby
watch this
rapid junco
Today is the launch day of my favorite british ship
Hood completes her 105th years of launch day 
Picture from the HMS Hood Association
tough quail
fantastic
manic latch
@tough quail MiG-21PFM "Fishbed-G" was a modified low-speed, fixed-gear Soviet STOL (jet-lift) testbed and a predecessor of the "Faithless" STOL fighter
remote monolith
same, at the bare minimum I hope it pays attention to details
autumn sorrel
Wake up guys, new Drach video about NC development
autumn sorrel
It is bit low production, granted it was one of his first content
autumn sorrel
Look like the fight happened in the comment section
And yeah, a fight is a bit of an understatement
supple sandal
And yeah, a fight is a bit of an understatement
War?
autumn sorrel
War?
Predominantly Vietnamese comments, chinese education tend to skip those time while Vietnamese get first hand experience from relatives who are veterans.
It became cringe after a while
autumn sorrel
T44 (Basically a Americanized FG42)
M60
supple sandal
Predominantly Vietnamese comments, chinese education tend to skip those time whi...
Well I checked Wikipedia and what the Chinese called that war is uhhhh, very cringe
autumn sorrel
Well I checked Wikipedia and what the Chinese called that war is uhhhh, very cri...
"Self-defense" my ass 
supple sandal
Don't even need to be Vietnamese to know that Vietnam would never attack China right after 30 years of continuous wars
Like who the fuck would dare to do that
Definitely not Vietnam obviously
subtle prawn
autumn sorrel
https://twitter.com/ronkainen7k15/status/1694302006306034037
Everyone seem to love CV90 now
tough quail
they always did
solid mango
90 has always been one of my beloved 
subtle prawn
shrewd pecan
tough quail
neat!
wintry moat
<:pepestare:1031449852078456884>
What’s that?
manic latch
What’s that?
Uss Gerald Ford class nuclear aircraft carrier
It has new EMAL system with lot of new technologies over Nimitz
wintry moat
cool
manic latch
This smaller bridge helps her to store more planes on deck
manic latch
Yup
Sigh
You know
This is interesting thing of danger of YouTube videos
Now lost believes this is bridge of Gerald ford class because I said so with giving some info about Gerald's features
When you do half truths it becomes so easy to Fool people after all
wintry moat
Oh
well shit
I’m not well versed
in modern carriers
not my thing to learn about
maiden citrus
autumn sorrel
I mean, it should be easy to spot the different between a Soviet style bridge and an US one, you would think.
spiral cedar
If given reference images, sure, but most people don't have those in their memory
strong plank
The easy tell is that the islands on American carriers aren’t that rounded off
They’re more blocky
solid mango
Been on my mind since yesterday but can anyone tell what bote dis be? 
alpine onyx
Hull number checks out
alpine onyx
What 0bbox sent looks more like a New Mexico/Tennessee
eternal veldt
Definitely neither. Neither ships have their yardarms that high up.
Its either a Portland/Northampton, based on that clipper bow and the absence of an amidship anchor hawse.
solid mango
strong plank
Also the superstructure
humble mulch
A new 1,000 page book on Romania's involvement in the war came out
Looks like I really do need to learn Romanian
subtle prawn
haughty osprey
The F-4E is based
manic latch
subtle prawn
manic latch
Barrel
rapid junco
My classmates drawning guns be like:
tough quail
I love fallout
eternal veldt
USS Leyte (CV-32) crewmembers swimming over the carrier's side, using her deck edge elevator as a diving platform in Augusta, Sicily, 27 May 1950.
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
lethal palm
Apart from USS Enterprise CV-6 was USS New Jersey’s the only other naval ship in US navy history to earn more battle stars than any other US warship
grave ravine
Do you mean most battle stars of all time or in WW2?
Though NJ isn't near the top for either of those categories
lethal palm
ww2 I think cause i was searching and it said enterprise had 20 nj 19
grave ravine
NJ got 19 over the course of her entire 50 odd year long career
In WW2 NJ got 9 IIRC
After Enterprise's 20, O'Bannon, San Francisco, and Minneapolis are all tied at 17
If we are looking at total careers, the top should be USS Nicholas, got 30 battle stars, 16 of which were in WW2
lethal palm
Is the reason why it constantly says nj when i search because it’s talking abt surviving us warships
lethal palm
I also recently heard laffey survived 52 kamikazes and was used for nuclear testing and survived it and was temporarily put back into commission for a few years if the story is true
grave ravine
So I would first note that this is a different Laffey from the one in game
But Laffey DD-724 did barely survive a massive kamikaze attack, that did involve somewhere around 50 Japanese aircraft
As for the nuclear testing part, she was at Bikini collecting scientific data rather than as a target ship, though they still had to decontaminate the ship afterwards
Laffey would later fight in the Korean War, was decommissioned in 1975, and is currently a museum ship in South Carolina with Yorktown CV-10
lethal palm
Why do so many people say that Yamamoto said stuff about there being a gun in every blade of grass on american soil and stuff about the sleeping giant when apparently from what I’ve heard he never said it or something if those people rebutting it are telling the truth
Which warship do you think was the most impressive of every warship during world war 2
grave ravine
People say lots of things, a lot of quotes are apocryphal
grave ravine
Which warship do you think was the most impressive of every warship during world...
That's a very subjective question that can be answered in a lot of different ways
subtle prawn
DD-724 Laffey does exist ingame, but she's currently in NPC jail
lethal palm
That's a very subjective question that can be answered in a lot of different way...
Some people seem to think it might be ijn yamato or kms bismarck
subtle prawn
While both might have gone down in a blaze of glory, I wouldn't call their careers impressive
subtle prawn
Actually, being sunk by carrier borne aircraft the way she did isn't that glorious…
alpine onyx
I'll say ZG-3, but that is partially biased
Tho giving love to underappreciated ships is always good
lethal palm
Did Yamamoto actually study in America because i hear people say he knew what America’s response to pearl harbor would be and the American mentality because he studied in America and even objected to attacking Pearl Harbor and knew after the attack they’d only have a few months of victory and then have defeat after defeat once the American war machine was up and running
grave ravine
Yamamoto did study in the US, as for the rest of it that's a lot more complicated and frankly not a subject I can do justice to
lethal palm
I also realized recently how archerfish played a decently important role with how she sunk the shinano even if it wasn’t fully completed but it could’ve been potentially dangerous if it was completely and how lucky the crew got with their torpedoes
grave ravine
Eh, by the time Archerfish sank Shinano things were very much a foregone conclusion
And Shinano wasnt a very good carrier, nor did Japan actually have the pilots to give her a reasonable air group
lethal palm
I feel like to me the main reason it feels semi-impressive is how lucky they got cause apparently shinanos sister need like 19 torpedoes and a couple bombs to sink while shinano only needed 4 that just happened to hit vital and important areas
grave ravine
So there are a few things to remember here
Firstly, Submarine torps are a lot larger and more powerful than aerial torps
Secondly, all 4 torpedoes hit on one side, while the air attacks were hitting both sides
Hitting one side caused Shinano to list and capsize
thorn trail
also Shinano was pretty much still incomplete as well
thorn trail
yeah damage control in IJN ships wasn't that great to begin with and then we have Shinano with a very inexperienced crew
alpine onyx
Also to remember that overkill is a thing, and that the probable torpedo hit number on Yamato is actually around 10-12 torpedoes
grave ravine
And again, 10-12 aerial torps
alpine onyx
Which is still a lot, but there were instances of more torpedo hits on a ship, even with ship launched ones
Scharnhorst was what... 11-14?
lethal palm
In your opinion do you think japan surrendered because of the nukes or the Soviets and were the nukes justified in that situation because i feel like it isn’t because the soviets because apparently their navy and air force wouldn’t have been as capable as the us to bring in tons of troops to invade mainland japan and in that situation it would’ve been millions die or only a couple hundred thousand die so even if it isn’t completely justified it’s better than millions more soldiers and civilians dying right and a lot of people seem to say there was internal conflict on whether to surrender and also regarding the conditional surrender and the coup as well
grave ravine
Hornet took like 16 torpedoes, though probably only around 8-10 actually detonated
grave ravine
In your opinion do you think japan surrendered because of the nukes or the Sovie...
This is again a very complicated issue, though there is a pinned essay that I think does a good job
lethal palm
I feel like the main reason people argue about the nukes is because we don’t know what went on back then so the Americans might not have even known that japan was coming to a consensus on unconditional surrender
remote monolith
This is again a very complicated issue, though there is a pinned essay that I th...
its been a very long while since this was needed again
glad it can still helps folks
strong plank
I feel like, had we not dropped the bombs
people would be asking to this day why we didn't
it's what I'd call an unsatisfying issue
also yeah Yamamoto studied at harvard
though something tells me they don't list him among their famous alumni
desert agate
Shattered Sword gives a pretty solid breakdown of Yamamotos personality doesn't mention his study in the US as particularly influential in his decisionmaking
He was just opportunistic to a fault
A fault that destroyed his country and killed millions
strong plank
he apparently got a C+ in English
spiral cedar
Did Yamamoto actually study in America because i hear people say he knew what Am...
Yamamoto was against war with the US, but he wasn't against attacking Pearl Harbor if war was chosen. In fact, he was the one who helped ram the idea through in the first place—he pulled his usual stunt of threatening to resign if his plan wasn't approved.
Archerfish's story is historically interesting as Shinano was the largest warship ever sunk by submarine, but as others have mentioned, the IJNAF was a dead duck by the time Shinano was sunk. Recall that even Zuikaku was sacrificed as bait during the Battle of Leyte Gulf—the IJNAF's pilot quality was shattered in the 1942 Guadalcanal campaign and never recovered, and after the 1944 Battle of the Philippine Sea it never recovered quantitatively either. Add on the fact that Shinano had a smaller airgroup than most other Japanese carriers (she was intended as more of a Unicorn-style support carrier) and it's clear that by the time she sank she was being built for a navy that no longer could benefit for her as anything aside from air strike bait.
And yeah, as others have mentioned, overkill is very easy with naval warfare. Ships, especially big ships, don't just blow up and sink immediately like in a video game (most of the time). They can take hours to succumb to fatal wounds; Kirishima for example was fatally damaged in less than 10 minutes of shelling but didn't sink for almost another 3 hours. So the total amount of ordnance used to sink a ship is a poor metric for its survivability; the Japanese light cruiser Yahagi for example (around 6700 tons standard) took six aerial torpedoes and several bombs before sinking—firepower that would sink most battleships, let alone a light cruiser a fifth of their displacement.
spiral cedar
In your opinion do you think japan surrendered because of the nukes or the Sovie...
You could write entire books (and indeed, people have) on each of the separate questions of a) how important were each of the nuclear bombings to the final Japanese surrender, b) was using the nuclear bombs on Japanese cities the "best" option the US had for ending the Pacific War given what they had and knew at the time, c) what was the state of the Japanese government before and after the events of August 6-9, d) how many people actually died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, e) was it morally justified within the context of the world in August 1945. New documents continue to be discovered and new books written on individual topics within the debate. Nowadays the pro-bomb side seems to have the advantage in historical circles (as the post-Cold War archives worldwide have opened up and their contents have been sifted through), but go back half a century and you'll see a different academic consensus. I have my own particular stance, and I believe it's a stance that is well-justified by the evidence and defensible using both primary and secondary sources—but what's more important to me is that people know the facts and sort out the misinformation and come to their own, reasoned conclusion based off a full understanding of what the realities were in the summer of 1945. It's time-consuming, but over the years I think it's given me a lot of perspective in many other aspects of history, so I feel the effort was worthwhile.
Because the topic has so many layers and so much depth to it, it is very easy for people with an agenda to collect a lot of technically true statements (and, if needed, false ones—there has been more than one case of an author on the topic outright falsifying most of his citations) to make all sorts of slanted or outright nonsensical arguments about the topic. YouTube, as usual, is even worse, which is unfortunate given how many people think they're getting factual information from online "edutainment" these days—but I digress. It is important to read a variety of sources, and to understand the content moreso than just parroting what the writer's conclusion was—for example, the US Strategic Bombing Survey (done just after war's end) has conclusions about Japan's food situation that are entirely contradicted by the content of its own report, in part because the authors were writing when the USAAF was trying to justify being its own military branch by emphasizing the role of strategic bombing. You will need to create (and revise) a mental model of how wars end and look past the specific arguments of the sources you're reading to see how the puzzle pieces from all the (reliable) sources fit together
Alternatively, I can just tell you my opinions and you can take them as your own. Maybe less fulfilling, but we all have finite lifespans and it is certainly faster for you.
So just let me know if you'd rather I give you sources, or my own past summaries and arguments.
tribal mortar
Kirishima's mighty last stand against Washington
solid mango
Lazers go br
fierce sparrow
manic latch
@maiden citrus https://warthunder.com/en/news/8419-development-uss-texas-bb-35-the-first-and-the-last-en
desert agate
subtle prawn
spiral cedar
Kirishima's mighty last stand against Washington
Why is Hiei there too
desert agate
She's being supportive
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
supple sandal
Any explanation for the lack of depression on Soviet tanks outside of they like it that way?
shrewd pecan
just boils down to their turret designs
since most Soviet designs preferred smaller turrets with good protection
tough quail
I love the incredibly cute love detail ka-27
maiden citrus
<@125445797448908800> https://warthunder.com/en/news/8419-development-uss-texas-...
Very poggers indeed
rapid junco
A website made an article and quoted an excerpt of participation that one of my favorite History YouTuber made on a podcast
Which was about the route that was used to ferry the B29s
The only problem though
They called the B29 a Fighter
And "B59"
Instead 
manic latch
I love the incredibly cute love detail ka-27
27 fren
finite gulch
@spiral cedar are all your sources on hiroshima and nagasaki the same or have you come across more?
manic latch
I always love Ka-27
Will be replaced with Ka-65
65's design changed alot over the years
This was early one
autumn sorrel
This was early one
Why does it look French? 
desert agate
subtle prawn
spiral cedar
<@358840970931994624> are all your sources on hiroshima and nagasaki the same or...
There are more
finite gulch
There are more
Can you dm me the reccs?
somber knoll
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLs_dEzyyOU
Le funni 5.56 MG-42
They should have also made the 5.56 FG-42
subtle prawn
gloomy current
How are ship lengths measured? her stated length is 214m but the drawing makes her 228m
alpine onyx
Can measure keel length, waterline length, overall length, and some others
Here you probably read waterline length, and then measured overall length
also to note that sometimes overall length changes, especially when bows get modified
spring briar
Then I think the drawing is wrong since they indeed are ~215 metres long
spiral cedar
Can you dm me the reccs?
Sent
spiral cedar
Sure
grave ravine
thanks
spiral cedar
Though there's no reason I can't send them here actually
grave ravine
I mean works for me lol
spiral cedar
I'll give a list of authors and their areas of specialty, and then I'll send some specific book or article titles (and a few PDFs I have downloaded).
In terms of general completeness on the specific topic of ending the Pacific War, I'd suggest Richard B. Frank. He leans towards the military situation and the US perspective, but overall he's good at both thoroughness and completeness.
For the internal situation in Japan's government surrounding Hirohito, I'd suggest Herbert P. Bix as an excellent modern expert on the topic. His specialty is in the Japanese political side, rather than the nuclear physics or military side.
For Operation Downfall and the potential of a Soviet invasion of Japan, D.M. Giangreco is the foremost scholar on the topic. He specializes on the military side primarily, though political considerations play an important secondary role.
For Japan's general political and domestic situation, I'd suggest Jeremy A. Yellen. Yellen's a bit more specific but has a lot of insight into how Japan's domestic politics influenced the thinking of the government ministers.
For the actual physics of the nuclear bombs, and in particular Truman's role, Alex Wellerstein is an excellent choice. He also runs a website, nuclearsecrecy, and created the famous "Nukemap" tool. His focus is the scientific side and on Truman's role in the nuclear bombings specifically.
For insight into the role the USSR had in ending the war, Tsuyoshi Hasegawa's research has much valuable insight. Hasegawa focuses on the political side and Japan's perspective.
On the relative importance of various factors that weighed on Japanese decision makers, I recommend Sadao Asada. Asada's focus is on the political aspects and Japan's leadership.
For Japan's internal political situation, especially near the top, Robert J. C. Butow still remains a classic. However, his work is older, and as a consequence he lacked some important archival information when writing, in particular on the topic of Hirohito's role. He focuses on the political side and Japan's situation.
As for specific works, here are some.
"Ending the Asia-Pacific War: New Dimensions" by Richard B. Frank (Article)
"Ending the Pacific War: The New History" by Richard B. Frank (Book chapter)
Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire by Richard B. Frank (Book)
"Japan's Delayed Surrender: A Reinterpretation" by Herbert P. Bix (Article)
Hell to Pay: Operation Downfall and the Invasion of Japan, expanded edition by D.M. Giangreco (Book)
"The Specter of Revolution: Reconsidering Japan's Decision to Surrender" by Jeremy A. Yellen (Article)
"How many people died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki?" by Alex Wellerstein (Web article)
"Did the Japanese offer to surrender before Hiroshima?" by Alex Wellerstein (Web article)
"A 'purely military' target? Truman's changing language about Hiroshima" by Alex Wellerstein (Web article)
"To demonstrate, or not to demonstrate?" by Alex Wellerstein (Web article)
Racing the Enemy: Stalin, Truman and Surrender of Japan by Tsuyoshi Hasegawa (Book)
"The Shock of the Atomic Bomb and Japan's decision to Surrender: A Reconsideration" by Sadao Asada (Article)
Japan's Decision to Surrender by Robert J. C. Butow (Book)
"The Historiography of Hiroshima: The Rise and Fall of Revisionism" by Michael Kort
"The Starvation Myth: The U.S. Blockade of Japan in World War II" by Christopher Clay
grave ravine
I have downfall by Frank, read it a while ago
spiral cedar
While I have restrained from editorializing about my opinions on the above authors and sources, I do feel obligated to suggest staying away from Alperovitz and his crowd. The "atomic diplomacy" faction has been fairly thoroughly discredited for outright inventing sources and references for decades and they should not be taken seriously.
grave ravine
ok thanks
manic latch
With an increase in engine thrust by 150% the F-4X would have featured dash speeds of Mach 3.2, cruise at Mach 2.4, and flight up to 78,000ft (23,775m) altitude.
jagged monolith
spring briar
solid mango
warm finch
Why does this look THAT wrong??
subtle prawn
manic latch
Good ol 1920s
spring briar
chilly osprey
Tbf, it was more about developing contingencies in case they ever ended up in a war with the British
The British looked into the same problem in the 1920s from the other end, though generally less seriously than the Americans.
strong plank
Up until the end of WW2 Britain was the U.S.’ theoretical opponent when planning for war in a European theater
chilly osprey
Up until the end of WW2 Britain was the U.S.’ theoretical opponent when planning...
Well, not just the British
War Plan Black was for a war against Germany, Gold for France, and Grey for Italy
desert agate
the Canadian plan was whackier
they planned to invade the East coast, burn everything they came across and retreat to slow the Americans down till the Brits could come save them
ornate wind
Is that an amphibious landing through the Great Lakes and Niagara Falls? What the fuck
chilly osprey
Not sure if those are general arrows or actually indicative of specific operaitons
But basically the idea was to sieze all the major cities and major ports to prevent the British from being able to reinforce Canada or use any Candian ports as bases for the RN.
The British were not confident that anything could be done to save Canada, and the Canadian position was that in the vent of conflict between the US and Britain they'd just declare neutrality and not get involved.
Unfortunately for them, the American plan basically called for them to consider Canada a liability no matter what they did and invade them at the outset of a conflict, even if they declared themselves neutral.
manic latch
Is that an amphibious landing through the Great Lakes and Niagara Falls? What th...
Here
finite gulch
I mean, yeah
manic latch
"Disable Niagara power grid"
finite gulch
Treat on borders
tough quail
https://news.usni.org/2023/08/27/mv-22-osprey-carrying-20-marines-crashes-in-aus...
are aussie helicopters just fucking cursed
i dont mean anything against them but it feels like every three months there's an australian helicopter disaster of some sort
including a lot of those horrendous bushfires iirc
manic latch
i dont mean anything against them but it feels like every three months there's a...
Speaking of Ausi. Someone find an article explaining why Aukus is bad in most unexpected way possible for Human mind
I don't know if I have the strenght to share it here
manic latch
Yeah I better just DM
grave ravine
Yeah I better just DM
is it the one blahaj posted in drach's discord?
subtle prawn
Almost certainly from the description alone
grave ravine
that was quite the article lol
manic latch
Project 1331M small anti-submarine ship "Aleksin" at night 
upbeat cedar
Beautiful
haughty osprey
Would look prettier on the ocean floor.
manic latch
Would look prettier on the ocean floor.
Why?
I swear you people are weird
Do I have to always share an American ship for someone to not wish it to sink randomly
wise vessel
its probably just because of modern politics
plus the russians not having a good history with ships
haughty osprey
Do I have to always share an American ship for someone to not wish it to sink ra...
No, the Parchims are pretty ships. The Indonesian ones have a nice charm to them, especially given the interesting aesthetics of East Germany left over on ones like Sultan Nuku.
But uh, that particular Parchim up there...
I think there's a pretty nifty saying from last year for it... Can't quite put my finger on it... I think they put it on a stamp? Something about a Snake?
wise vessel
oh, right
wise vessel
But uh, that particular Parchim up there...
I think there's a pretty nifty sayi...
i thought it was the ships Vasily Bykov and Moskva that did the whole snake thing?
manic latch
But uh, that particular Parchim up there...
I think there's a pretty nifty sayi...
?????
She is Baltic...
wise vessel
its mistaken identity then i think
manic latch
Yeah like most extreme thing she did was ASW training
haughty osprey
i thought it was the ships Vasily Bykov and Moskva that did the whole snake thin...
Correct, but not my point. You know what the quote said.
And yes, I know it's in a different fleet. I still make fun of the Kuznetsov for being a gargantuan smoghouse.
manic latch
Correct, but not my point. You know what the quote said.
And yes, I know it's i...
???
So you hate this ship because it's Russian?
haughty osprey
INS Trikand, that's a pretty ship. The Talwars have a loveliness to them with the way the bow design goes.
wise vessel
So you hate this ship because it's Russian?
seems just like that, or they don't like how it looks in russian service?
manic latch
seems just like that, or they don't like how it looks in russian service?
I think he is under influence of 2022 trends. Very doubt he would say this to Aleksin in 2021
Because it literally just floats around in Baltic
wise vessel
yeah i get what you mean, its kinda related to politics though so im gonna drop it 
haughty osprey
actually, ive been thinking about soviet ships recently
The Kirovs in their original configuration are handsome bastards
The Kiev-class looks like dogshit
wise vessel
The Kirovs in their original configuration are handsome bastards
true yeah, but ive been thinking about the bunch of aircraft carrier designs they had, but never actually built
iirc they had 36 seperate designs for just one hull
haughty osprey
What like Project 1153?
manic latch
actually, ive been thinking about soviet ships recently
Any project you want I can find it
wise vessel
stuff like the komsomolets and project 72, i think thats how you spell it
manic latch
stuff like the komsomolets and project 72, i think thats how you spell it
72 is original hull
Inspired from Illustrious class
wise vessel
i found this one "article" ig that mentioned a bunch of designs
haughty osprey
The Nanuchkas are ugly as sin and there is no point in time I would think otherwise
haughty osprey
i found this one "article" ig that mentioned a bunch of designs
I'd take any "Secret Soviet Projects" article with a grain of salt
wise vessel
I'd take any "Secret Soviet Projects" article with a grain of salt
thats fair, but it has some projects ive already heard of
and its posted on a very odd place
a website for a wargaming company
either way, it has a few interesting ideas
haughty osprey
I think he is under influence of 2022 trends. Very doubt he would say this to Al...
I doubt that too!
But it's 2023 and there is a big, big crater where a cafe in Odesa I used to get coffee at once stood. So yeah, forgive me if I'm a little "irrational" and "picky" when I see a ship operated by the same country responsible for that incident.
wise vessel
oh i get it, yeah id say your reaction is fair
haughty osprey
a website for a wargaming company
Wargaming company as in one that makes like, TTRPGs or the one that makes the WOT/WOWS series?
haughty osprey
Because the former type probably did some research, the other is uh... slowly omnomnoming their historical credibility away.
manic latch
But you said from wargaming
wise vessel
they make those hex and counter wargames
haughty osprey
Tachi said "a wargaming company" so I wanted clarification there
wise vessel
But you said from wargaming
sorry, physical wargames, like boardgames
haughty osprey
Ah, Avalanche Press
manic latch
Ohh
wise vessel
but yeah, ill list some of the ideas they say the soviets had
haughty osprey
Avalanche Press is interesting in just how much they've kept up being in a niche market. Their site design's ancient too, as when I went to see if Blue Danube might have been worth getting
The wargaming club at the university (who would've thought there would be one lol) was looking for something and, oh well, guess we'll have to keep looking.
At least we can still pass our save files for RTW3 around.
My god this one fella built so many destroyers I couldn't keep count
wise vessel
converting the unfinished battlecruiser izmail, or the damaged battleship frunze i assume in the early-mid 20s
supposedly the third five year plan had plans for two aircraft carriers, aka project 71
an essex-like project 72 in 1943
an aircraft carrier on the unfinished hull of kronstadt
and a weird mention of finishing graf zeppelin, but it was "never seriously considered"
maiden citrus
rtw3 mentioned, fun game
wise vessel
converting the unfinished battlecruiser izmail, or the damaged battleship frunze...
no sources or anything ofc
manic latch
converting the unfinished battlecruiser izmail, or the damaged battleship frunze...
Bro that's so easy
Izmail and Frunze conversion proposal
wise vessel
Bro that's so easy
ive heard of a few of them on stuff like wikipedia, but not the others
the izmail/frunze one is very interesting though
wise vessel
oh i didnt know that lol
manic latch
Kronshtadt conversion proposal was post war on what to do with the hull called Project 69AV
wise vessel
do you have anything on the planned conversions, or no?
wise vessel
Kronshtadt conversion proposal was post war on what to do with the hull called P...
yup, the weird article said the same
haughty osprey
rtw3 mentioned, fun game
Just don't play Austria in 1895
wise vessel
Just don't play Austria in 1895
i thought about getting it, because i love alternate history and ships ofc, but idk if id actually like it
whats the gameplay like?
haughty osprey
"Britain's fighting Russia. Germany's fighting Italy. I'm fighting my government and for my fucking life."
haughty osprey
i thought about getting it, because i love alternate history and ships ofc, but ...
I'll take this DMs if you don't mind
wise vessel
I'll take this DMs if you don't mind
sure yeah
wise vessel
oh shoot, thanks man
anything about the aircraft complement?
i might be able to find stuff like that by myself tbf
manic latch
anything about the aircraft complement?
Design study date: 1928
Displacement: 36,000 standard tons
Length: 228 meters
Beam: 29.9 meters
Draught: 9.4 meters
Propulsion: 4 sets of Franco-Russian turbines with 25 Yarrow boilers
Power of propulsion: 66,000 HP
Speed: 26.5 knots
knots/endurance: ?
Complement: ?
Armament: 2x 76 mm (2x1), up to 10 other Flak guns and 4 Torpedo Tubes
Number of Aircraft: 75
Catapults: -
Hanger: 4
Aircraft Elevators: 2
Armor: belt 238-100 mm, deck 38 mm
manic latch
There is also flush deck design
wise vessel
where do you get this stuff?
manic latch
It's my life
wise vessel
anything on any possible aircraft? i know there was the SHON prototype, but i dont know of anything else
manic latch
anything on any possible aircraft? i know there was the SHON prototype, but i do...
You usually make the planes after the work begins
Work of these never began as carrier so
wise vessel
oh yeah, fair
manic latch
No carrier plane
wise vessel
i like writing small alternate history stories, so stuff like this is a goldmine for me
thank you again
they planned to convert poltava?
manic latch
Wrong pic oops
wise vessel
lol
manic latch
Here
wise vessel
oh right, poltava/frunze
the renaming always confuses me
im guessing you have stuff on the complement too, right?
manic latch
im guessing you have stuff on the complement too, right?
Design study date: 1926
Displacement: 28,800 standard tons
Length: 181 meters
Beam: 26.8 meters
Draught: 8.3 meters
Propulsion: 4 sets of Parson turbines with 25 Yarrow boilers
Power of propulsion: 42,000 HP
Speed: 23 knots
knots/endurance: 1800 nautical miles at 30 knots
Complement: ?
Armament: 2x 76 (2x1), up to 10 Flak guns and 4 Torpedo Tubes
Number of Aircraft: 50
Catapults: -
Hanger: 4
Aircraft Elevators: 2
Armor: belt 250 mm, deck 100 mm
25 less than Izmail
manic latch
And 3.5 knot slower
wise vessel
frunze is a good bit smaller tbf
which one do you think the soviets were leaning towards, if any?
manic latch
Starting with these would be great. It would be like Bearn of France
manic latch
which one do you think the soviets were leaning towards, if any?
Izmail easily. It's faster and larger
Carriers need both
wise vessel
oh that makes sense
i was thinking frunze, since it mightve been cheaper
especially since from what i know (correct me if im wrong), the navy was essentially under army control, and they didnt like their budget size
manic latch
Yup
They sold 3 Izmail for scrap to Germany
Scrapped Izmail their own
Conversion of the training ship Komsomolec (ex-OKEAN)
She would be Langley of Soviets
wise vessel
yeah, ive heard of that one
manic latch
Tier 4 in wows
wise vessel
i wrote a little story about them, but turns out i got a good bit of stuff wrong so ive been thinking about rewriting it
wise vessel
Tier 4 in wows
isnt it also incredibly different in wows lol
manic latch
A bit
manic latch
i wrote a little story about them, but turns out i got a good bit of stuff wrong...
Project 71A. Chapayev hull
Serov in Wows
wise vessel
that one looks
a lot more like a modern carrier than the others
71A was mid/post war right?
manic latch
1936
Propulsion: 2 sets of geared turbines with 6 boilers
Power of propulsion: 130,000 HP
Speed: 34 knots
knots/endurance: ?
Complement: ?
Armament: 8x 130 mm (4x2) initial design replaced in final design by 8x 100 mm (8x1), 16x 37 mm (4x4), ?x 12.2 mm
Number of Aircraft: 30-45
wise vessel
oh wow
now im just imagining an alternate history where the soviets went into aircraft carriers instead of keeping their battleships afloat
manic latch
thank you for all the information btw
Ah find where I get these briefly
There is much more as you see
wise vessel
<@660310603830919189> https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/219445-ussr-carrie...
do you know the most about russian designs? or do you know more?
and thank you for the link
i found a few notes about a possible conversion plan of the ise class to a full aircraft carrier in ~august 1942, but ive found nothing on any actual designs
manic latch
do you know the most about russian designs? or do you know more?
I usually try to know most blueprint of warship designs
wise vessel
I usually try to know most blueprint of warship designs
i found a website with some preliminary american ship designs, split into 1911-1925 and 1939-1944
you might already know it though lol
manic latch
i found a website with some preliminary american ship designs, split into 1911-1...
You will never find the 1925-1938
wise vessel
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_Styles_books_(U.S._Navy)
yup lol
wise vessel
You will never find the 1925-1938
and whys that? it really annoys me ngl
oh nevermind, just read the wikipedia page
thats sad
manic latch
"It is curious, of course, that the Book 1 collection was titled
"1913-1918" on its binder when in fact the mass of loose drawings
included extended as late as 1925. I can't explain that. When we
received Book 1 it was an unorganized stack of loose drawings in no
order. I rearranged them into a single sequence in chronological
order. It had some drawings as early as 1911 and some as late as
1925. So it seems possible that someone at BuShips, probably back in
the 1940s, moved some Book 2 plans into the Book 1 stack. Or maybe
the added 1918-1925 material came from another file, and was not taken
from Book 2 at all. We will never know."
wise vessel
if only it wasnt seemingly lost
i got a theoretical question for you @manic latch, if the soviets did get a carrier pre-ww2, where do you think it wouldve been deployed?
maiden citrus
it might sadly explain why there isn't really much known on what would come after the sodak 1920s, despite them being around half completed
manic latch
i got a theoretical question for you <@688903088819404825>, if the soviets did g...
Flip a coin between Black Sea and Baltic
manic latch
it might sadly explain why there isn't really much known on what would come afte...
Pre 1918 files are also gone
wise vessel
it might sadly explain why there isn't really much known on what would come afte...
it would also explain the odd gap between carrier design plans ive noticed between ~1923-1930, ive noticed multiple designs are mentioned on the wikipedia page of the uss ranger that have semi-evident roots in the post-treaty 1923-1925 designs but ive never seen the actual designs mentioned
ie a 13,800 ton plan being mentioned (presumably) turning into ranger, and there being a 13,000 ton plan in 1925
manic latch
it would also explain the odd gap between carrier design plans ive noticed betwe...
several other such design file collections that have disappeared
there (e.g., 6487 with all the pre-war aircraft carrier design books),
in addition to those stated to have been destroyed.
wise vessel
several other such design file collections that have disappeared
there (e.g., 64...
that just sucks, nothing else to say about that really
manic latch
Of course, there were preliminary design books before 1915 as well
(when the PI 133 Entry 449 collection begins). All those disappeared,
with the sole exception of one BB38 volume (one of a series) that
accidentally got misfiled with weight books (much less important)
that did survive
wise vessel
i wonder how they have disappeared/been destroyed anyways
manic latch
BB38 info survived by luck
I mean
Think someone deletes youtube 40 years later
When it's replaced by something else and now obsolete
wise vessel
sounds right, or some intern swiping what they think are non important books into their trashcan
manic latch
All the videos there will be scattered
Important or not
That's why museums are valuable
Their job is to keep these safe
Or archives supposedly
wise vessel
mhm, i want to see at least one of the museum ships in the us, preferably uss wisconsin
manic latch
Not jersey huh
wise vessel
im from wisconsin so i have some bias 
if there was a uss wisconsin in azur lane, theyd be my pfp
maiden citrus
hope it's fun, I've seen a few
wise vessel
it'd be a pretty long roadtrip for me to see any of them
manic latch
Get a plane
wise vessel
brilliant
manic latch
Fun fact
Ticket will be cheaper
Than firing 127mm
New Jersey museums wants 500$ if you want to fire from her 127mm
Likely some kind of safe explosive inside barrel
wise vessel
worth it imo if im gonna go see new jersey, im 100% gonna pay to fire one of her guns
wise vessel
i see
manic latch
You can get her deck pieces as well
Smallest 10$ largest 250$
What I wouldn't give to buy Soyuz's deck pieces
somber knoll
mhm, i want to see at least one of the museum ships in the us, preferably uss wi...
Wisky is in Norfolk, I think?
maiden citrus
I have an nc deck plate
wise vessel
Wisky is in Norfolk, I think?
jesus its a 15h drive for me 
somber knoll
wise vessel
if i go see the ship, im buying all the memoribilia i can
strong plank
Arizona sells flags as well
somber knoll
jesus its a 15h drive for me <:JavSigh:666111453786275849>
at least you don't have to fly so yeah
maiden citrus
same, I bought a lot of posters etc at nc including the tech book
wise vessel
at least you don't have to fly so yeah
it'd probably be cheaper to fly tbf
strong plank
Also yeah please see Wisky
maiden citrus
I've used it here for a few things as a citation lol
strong plank
she’s under appreciated
wise vessel
Also yeah please see Wisky
im from wisconsin so i have a huge bias towards her lol
if she was in AL she'd be my pfp 100%
maiden citrus
since it shows neat things like the internal engine layout and shows exactly what they did to fix the vibration
strong plank
Iowa’s famous for being the name ship, Missouri’s famous for the surrender, and New Jersey’s gotten pretty well-known for her recent publicity
manic latch
im from wisconsin so i have a huge bias towards her lol
Ever tried Monk's?
wise vessel
Ever tried Monk's?
what's that?
strong plank
Wisconsin’s not talked about as much as her sisters
I do hope we get her in AL eventually
wise vessel
wisconsin fired at the north koreans 
strong plank
though at the rate we’re going it’s somewhat doubtful
manic latch
Wisconsin’s not talked about as much as her sisters
Only known from temper temper meme
wise vessel
exactly
strong plank
you know what would be baller
wise vessel
hm?
strong plank
if her art had a little drone fren
like the sumners
since their little cat robots are a nod to the DASH drones they carried later on
maiden citrus
oh right one of the funnier things I bought was a juice bottle made from mc grapes
wise vessel
jeez, how much did you buy?
deep apex
Wisconsin also fired at the Iraqis in 91
strong plank
yup
wise vessel
since their little cat robots are a nod to the DASH drones they carried later on
at this rate wisconsin might be in game by 2046
maiden citrus
jeez, how much did you buy?
probably like $200
strong plank
Was the first recorded instance of a drone accepting an enemy surrender
manic latch
Krem when there is a Soyuz Merchandise:
wise vessel
i wonder if there will even be another iowa class ship in the game within the next 5 years lol
maiden citrus
probably not
manic latch
Best I can do is Tirpitz II
maiden citrus
nah most cursed one is amagi II
manic latch
Murm chan
maiden citrus
mini murm
wise vessel
nah most cursed one is amagi II
what's the weirdest ship they could realistically add?
as in, one that had a chance of existing irl, or was briefly considered
wise vessel
imo the planned full conversion ise class wouldve been pretty weird
maiden citrus
game has ships that didn't even receive names all the way to ddgs
wise vessel
montana class when 
maiden citrus
it's hilarious that we have reached a point where montana wouldn't even be pr and would be amongst the most normal things to add
wise vessel
nah, she'd be the first uur
subtle prawn
Honestly, I'd like a post-war ship that was completed before the missile age
wise vessel
~~Honestly, I'd like a post-war ship that was completed before the missile age~~
like what?
subtle prawn
as in, one that had a chance of existing irl, or was briefly considered
Cancelled Essexes
manic latch
what's the weirdest ship they could realistically add?
Bismarck II was the point they went no history but lore. Since blueprints have history as well
But Bismarck never had such refit
maiden citrus
bismarck 2 being in game is such a blur to me due to the absurdity that I forget about it near daily
wise vessel
~~Cancelled Essexes~~
honestly they should add all the essexes 
, even add post war versions as retrofits
wise vessel
Bismarck II was the point they went no history but lore. Since blueprints have h...
they could do scharnhorst retrofits
subtle prawn
like what?
Mitscher-class, Forrest Sherman, USS Norfolk, Neustrashimy, Skoryy-class, Project 56, T47, T53, Des Moines, Worcester, Daring, etc.
wise vessel
they've already dipped their toes a bit into post-ww2 ships/retrofits, i wouldnt be surprised if they have events based around it
maiden citrus
like iirc one daring class could straight up be added to the game
wise vessel
im glad i was taking a break when bisko 2 dropped 
manic latch
Shima being UR DD is hard to judge. It's either because of firepower or because being Experimental
maiden citrus
des moines and worcester were building during the war
strong plank
what's the weirdest ship they could realistically add?
I think the United States class could be funny
subtle prawn
Oh and Stalingrad
manic latch
Daring could be UR because of her strengths
maiden citrus
one of the darings were laid down december 1945 yeah
you could probably scribble it in
wise vessel
Shima being UR DD is hard to judge. It's either because of firepower or because ...
honestly i only know shima bc shes super op
strong plank
Assuming they actually add them and not just rerelease more rainbow Essexes
manic latch
Oh and Stalingrad
Stalin laid down post war. We don't have such ships yet
maiden citrus
shima is due to experimental yeah
manic latch
Lex II
maiden citrus
firepower is not impressive
manic latch
strong plank
me reading how Shima sank
subtle prawn
Stalin laid down post war. We don't have such ships yet
They did ask me what I would like to see, so I gave them my answer to that
wise vessel
js add a nuclear submarine lol
strong plank
wise vessel
how long until they add the amagi aircraft carrier
wise vessel
Glass cannon
tbf that can describe every destroyer
not many of them were known for their durability
maiden citrus
shima died to machine gun fire
manic latch
Shima dies to machine guns
wise vessel
oh thats just sad oh my god
paper hull with wooden superstructure 
are there any other weird ship sinkings? i know surcouf disappeared off the planet of the earth and hasnt been found
the soviets have a great history of their submarines randomly exploding/imploding or running into each other
maiden citrus
like tech spec wise she's... ok
but she's ur due to being last in the dd line basically
strong plank
Impressive, now let’s see Paul Allen’s submersible
autumn sorrel
Wow, 300 comments, did I miss something?
wise vessel
Impressive, now let’s see Paul Allen’s submersible
"she was a mangled wreck" 😭
maiden citrus
just some talking
wise vessel
Wow, 300 comments, did I miss something?
not really, we just were talking about soviet aircraft carriers, turned into talking about the iowa class, now we're dunking on shima
autumn sorrel
No controversy I presume?
maiden citrus
nah
wise vessel
not really, no
autumn sorrel
not really, we just were talking about soviet aircraft carriers, turned into tal...
Ah, did you ask about Izmail conversion plan?
wise vessel
Ah, did you ask about Izmail conversion plan?
yup, now i got a bunch of information on some soviet aircraft carrier plans that never happened
they were on the wows forum so i copied them into a google doc for safekeeping
autumn sorrel
Better print it out into paper, I nearly lost my google doc bc acc was hacked
wise vessel
i have a few gmail accounts i use
i can just copy and paste the doc if i really need to
subtle prawn
are there any other weird ship sinkings? i know surcouf disappeared off the plan...
Yukon was due to be scuttled by explosives, but sank in poor weather with the explosives intact before the scuttling could happen
strong plank
Hm today I shall store these priceless Royal navy schematics in my attic (clueless)
somber knoll
js add a nuclear submarine lol
U-2540 UR copium
wise vessel
Yukon was due to be scuttled by explosives, but sank in poor weather with the ex...
lol ofc
wise vessel
U-2540 UR copium
ive never heard of that im js being dumb 
autumn sorrel
the soviets have a great history of their submarines randomly exploding/implodin...
Tbf, that either happen at the end of Union where budget is low and training was bad or when they test new tech and try to push boundaries
wise vessel
Tbf, that either happen at the end of Union where budget is low and training was...
yeah fair, i just find it funny in a morbid sense
subtle prawn
lol ofc
She had already been decommissioned by that time, but was purchased by a group to be used as an artificial reef
somber knoll
ive never heard of that im js being dumb <:njderp:878399237669388309>
one of the later Type XXI U-Boats, and perhaps the only intact U-Boat that became a museum ship
named Wilhelm Bauer
wise vessel
She had already been decommissioned by that time, but was purchased by a group t...
oh that just sucks in every sense
wise vessel
one of the later Type XXI U-Boats, and perhaps the only intact U-Boat that becam...
werent a few uboats (i dont remember if they were ww1 or ww2 era) sunk then refloated a decade later and put back into service?
autumn sorrel
Well, there is a Liberty ship wreck outside of Brit coast rn that are a hazard
somber knoll
werent a few uboats (i dont remember if they were ww1 or ww2 era) sunk then refl...
she was one of those yeah
U-2540 I mean
wise vessel
she was one of those yeah
oh thats interesting, i know there were 1 or 2 british destroyers that were cut in half due to damage in combat, and the halves were just welded together
somber knoll
and the Type XXI became pretty much a blueprint for postwar submarine developments
wise vessel
ww1 era i believe though
autumn sorrel
oh thats interesting, i know there were 1 or 2 british destroyers that were cut ...
One of the tribal class
Can’t remember the name but yeah, a frankenstein ship
wise vessel
One of the tribal class
yeah, im so used to being the one that knows the most when it comes to ships in a discussion 
autumn sorrel
Lol
wise vessel
ive been in and out of this server a few times and ive always watched this channel, but never actually talked in it
somber knoll
One of the tribal class
Speaking of Tribals
I want my maple-syrup drinking, Hockey stick-swinging Canuck Haida.
wise vessel
commonwealth navies as seperate factions when
wise vessel
manjuu u cowards
autumn sorrel
commonwealth navies as seperate factions when <:SeattleGrin:846527853713555456>
Prob never
wise vessel
Prob never
yeah i know, they've already made a precedent with leander i think? idk i forgot the name
i have bad memory related to any azur lane ship that isnt meta
autumn sorrel
Aussie want their own navy but the Admiralty doesn’t like Colonies to have their own independent command
wise vessel
i mean, weren't the aussies closest to having an independent navy during ww2 anyways?
autumn sorrel
Canadian, well, Quebecois often vote against anything that remotely benefit Canada as a whole
wise vessel
sounds right
i don't know much about commonwealth navies tbh, besides that they existed
autumn sorrel
SA also have their own Navy, a quite sizable one during ww2
subtle prawn
And speaking of the topic of weird ships to be added earlier, De Grasse since her specifications as designed and as completed were significantly different
From regular CL to CLAA
wise vessel
how long until they add something completely oddball like a brazilian battleship
manic latch
oh thats interesting, i know there were 1 or 2 british destroyers that were cut ...
@autumn sorrel Soviets also had a Frankenstein Destroyer. But lack of research makes it very unpopular or unknown should I say 
wise vessel
<@634401798253445132> Soviets also had a Frankenstein Destroyer. But lack of res...
really? what was the name of it?
autumn sorrel
i mean, weren't the aussies closest to having an independent navy during ww2 any...
They want to have a much larger navy with capital ship unit to deter the Japanese but:
- Washington naval treaty prevent Brit from transferring capital ship to the Commonwealth and then take it back if war happen.
- It need money and the admiralty won’t approve the expenditure if Aussie have independent command
- The Great Depression hit hard
manic latch
really? what was the name of it?
Storozhevoy, she gets head/bow section of unfinished Ognevoi class after a damage
wise vessel
Storozhevoy, she gets head/bow section of unfinished Ognevoi class after a damag...
very interesting
wise vessel
They want to have a much larger navy with capital ship unit to deter the Japanes...
right, that makes sense
the washington naval treaty kinda messed everything up
autumn sorrel
It actually did what it was intended for
subtle prawn
It did save everyone from an expensive arms race though
autumn sorrel
Stop the naval arm race for a while
wise vessel
and most navies followed the limits
wise vessel
i find it really funny that on some prelim design papers for us aircraft carriers, theres a real tonnage and then a treaty tonnage
autumn sorrel
Only when later that you see blatantly lie
wise vessel
maybe im misunderstanding it, it seems like theyre just planning to lie on the tonnage before the ship design even gets approved
wise vessel
Only when later that you see blatantly lie
i mean, the us navy lied a bit about the lexington class carriers back in the mid 1920s, didnt they?
maiden citrus
it's because it doesn't count a lot of item weights in the treaty
so there's a 'what this weighs under the treaty' and 'what this would actually weigh'
feed water for example
wise vessel
oh yeah, i forgot about that
yeah that makes a lot more sense lol
god im supposed to be fixing my sleep schedule not up at 12:30 talking about ships
subtle prawn
And then there's the IJN who would have attempted to build as many Ryujos as possible since any aircraft carriers below 10,000 tons wouldn't have counted towards their aircraft carrier tonnage had they not patched the loophole
autumn sorrel
They would be shite tho
wise vessel
how did the ryujo class perform anyways? im assuming they essentially blew up the second they got touched by a bomb, since they were that light
autumn sorrel
Which bite them in the ass at the end of the fay
subtle prawn
They would be shite tho
Never said they wouldn't
wise vessel
They would be shite tho
i mean, wasnt the japanese plan to essentially hit the americans and just hope they didnt fight back?
autumn sorrel
i mean, wasnt the japanese plan to essentially hit the americans and just hope t...
They US would foil like Imperial Russian
wise vessel
id hope theyd be used more like escort carriers than full fleet carriers though, for the sake of the poor crew
autumn sorrel
Prob is, you are hitting them at their own land not a far away colony like Port Arthur
And they aren’t fighting the ruling class, the Tzar, they pissed off American people
Any backing down or even mentioning of peace talk early on to any politician is career suicide
wise vessel
plus they didn't hit the actual main fighting power of the american fleet in the region, they thought they were going to but they didnt
autumn sorrel
They did
Most of US line of battle was knock out
US carrier group barely maintain control
wise vessel
only two of them actually stayed down though, but most were out for a long time
it was just two, right? or one?
yeah two lol
wise vessel
US carrier group barely maintain control
the carriers were actually based at pearl harbor though, werent they? i know they were thought to be
autumn sorrel
Oklahoma was lost
wise vessel
(as in their base was there, i know they werent there at the time of the attack)
autumn sorrel
Arizona is a total lost
wise vessel
right, yeah
autumn sorrel
the carriers were actually based at pearl harbor though, werent they? i know the...
They are, but the carriers was out to ferry aircraft to Wake or training
subtle prawn
One of them was saved because of bad weather
wise vessel
They are, but the carriers was out to ferry aircraft to Wake or training
i wonder what would've happened if they were stationed at pearl harbor during the attack
autumn sorrel
i wonder what would've happened if they were stationed at pearl harbor during th...
Prob sink
A stationary ship is a dead ship
wise vessel
then wasp and ranger would be the ones holding down the pacific for a while, if they wouldnt be blown up during coral sea and/or midway
autumn sorrel
Wasp, maybe. Ranger is questionable
wise vessel
wasn't ranger too slow?
subtle prawn
Ranger's too slow
wise vessel
right, but if all yorktown ships are gone (or if enterprise is gonna enterprise, 2 sunk and 1 out of the fight for a while), wouldn't they risk bringing ranger along anyways?
autumn sorrel
If they are desperate enough
autumn sorrel
Maybe not but wasp doesn’t have the strike capability to dmg Kido butai
wise vessel
that could be an interesting timeline though, with what, 3/5 of america's effective carrier striking force out right at the start of war?
subtle prawn
The war gets extended by a few more years
wise vessel
but then again, yorktown was in the atlantic when ww2 began
autumn sorrel
Essex class was starting being build when Pearl happen
maiden citrus
Oklahoma was lost
oklahoma was raised but not considered worth fixing, the only bb really down for good was arizona
it's also funny they talk about ranger's speed as she's like
3 knots slower at worst and still has a capable airwing
wise vessel
ranger was just a slightly worse yorktown class lol
maiden citrus
ranger carrying as many planes as kaga and is faster: idk she's too weak for the pacific
wise vessel
its why she was placed in the atlantic, so people just say it as fact im guessing
but in any situation where there were more carrier casualties in the coral sea/midway, ranger would 100% get called to the pacific
maiden citrus
perhaps, she was the slowest of them so least common denominator, but to say she's bad or can't fight in the pacific is uh
wise vessel
pretty incorrect lmfao
she had a strange history though pre-war
she was originally built as a flattop
her flight deck supports also couldnt handle modern air group in late 1943 supposedly
so that mightve been a major reason she was mainly used to ferry aircraft around
maiden citrus
yeah that's when heavier aircraft etc started being used
wise vessel
now im thinking about a pacific war without the enterprise, bc of the conversation before
wise vessel
its too late for me to go full writing n stuff
autumn sorrel
One of the reason why Ryuujo is suck
wise vessel
they were going to reinforce her but were like
i thought they did in mid/late 44
autumn sorrel
She can’t handle next gen IJN aircraft
maiden citrus
I mean fully in a refit for more modern aircraft
wise vessel
the ryujos were js a horrible idea lol
maiden citrus
iirc most ijn carriers had that issue except for certain ones like taihou
subtle prawn
It seemed like a good idea to exploit the loophole to them
wise vessel
the concept probably couldve worked if they cared a bit more about survivability, in exchange for a smaller air group imo
maiden citrus
probably
wise vessel
iirc most ijn carriers had that issue except for certain ones like taihou
wasnt taihou an oddball for japanese carrier design though
autumn sorrel
She is more of a evolution in carrier design
wise vessel
i mean, they were also building a class of what was essentially budget hiryus at the same time
i kinda wish those warships did something instead of get bombed
maiden citrus
taihou was overall a sound design philosophy, just had 'pudding is in the details' flaws
autumn sorrel
Japan don’t have the pilots to replace their losses
So even if those Carrier are operational, they can’t effectively use them
wise vessel
right, was there any way they couldve had the pilots?
besides just poofing more of them out of thin air?
like slacking the requirements or something?
autumn sorrel
Alter their training program and lower the standards
subtle prawn
Too late by the time they did actually loosen the standards
autumn sorrel
But that is more of a culture thing
wise vessel
makes sense, the unyru class ships that were built had their air group sent to fight in iwo jima anyways
somber knoll
the concept probably couldve worked if they cared a bit more about survivability...
that was pretty much what the Lustys were built with in mind
wise vessel
that was pretty much what the Lustys were built with in mind
i mean, the lustys also had over 10,000 more tons to play with in comparison
subtle prawn
There was apparently hazing and you could not be accepted for even the most minor imperfections as if you wanted to be an IJN pilot
wise vessel
jesus, so it was a military role and a frat house 
autumn sorrel
There was apparently hazing and you could not be accepted for even the most mino...
Japan military culture and discipline is borderline abusive and sadistic
wise vessel
so what, they p much had a self sabotaging culture?
i knew it was bad but not this bad
subtle prawn
Japan military culture and discipline is borderline abusive and sadistic
No wonder their forces committed as many war crimes as they did besides the factor of racism
autumn sorrel
They copy Brit discipline but forget the carrot part
wise vessel
i see why they were kept disarmed for what, a decade post war?
i bet the american command was horrified of a militarist resurgence
autumn sorrel
JSDF do away with that culture, they are a professional volunteer force now
subtle prawn
The JSDF is more modelled after the American military now
autumn sorrel
i bet the american command was horrified of a militarist resurgence
No? They are concerned with commie
wise vessel
was there any real way the japanese couldve won anyways? i doubt theyd be able to bring the americans to the negotiating table after what they did with pearl harbor
autumn sorrel
Lol, no
wise vessel
No? They are concerned with commie
oh yeah, right communism
maiden citrus
they didn't have a chance
wise vessel
they tried at least lmfao
maiden citrus
1944/45 america cancelled an entire uk worth of ships when they saw how hard they were winning
eternal veldt
are there any other weird ship sinkings? i know surcouf disappeared off the plan...
As usual, Mikasa worth mentioning.
Her crew took the risk to distill alcohol in her magazines to have a booze party.
No booze, but boom instead.
wise vessel
not long after the end of the russo-japanese war, right?
eternal veldt
Glatton's also another curious one, as in that the insulating cork between bulkheads was not properly installed and was instead filled with newspaper
Boilers get hot next to magazine, ship goes boom
eternal veldt
Mutsu's cause is indeterminant, mostly attributed to angry crewman
wise vessel
not like she would've done much except explode if she was kept afloat anyways
subtle prawn
She could have done something, be target practice for the USN
wise vessel
maybe take down an escort carrier
eternal veldt
One more ship does help
wise vessel
i mean yeah, mutsu would've helped a lot
wise vessel
there were plans to fully convert the ise battleships not long after midway
wise vessel
to convert fuso to a carrier?
eternal veldt
Yes
wise vessel
i wonder if theres any blueprints left of it, probably not
eternal veldt
The full conversion plans were met with resistance from the admirals that advocate BBs
And Hyuuga's turret no.5 conveniently exploded in 1942
So, refit Ises instead
wise vessel
The full conversion plans were met with resistance from the admirals that advoca...
ive only heard of the plans with ise, where they wouldve been able to carry up to 54 aircraft
do u have any more info on the fuso plans or no?
autumn sorrel
That would require a complete rebuild and a lot time and workforce
At that point, just finish the Unryuu instead
wise vessel
do you think the japanese wouldve been better off finishing the unryuu's instead of shinano? they had to cancel a few to convert her
eternal veldt
autumn sorrel
They would’ve been fucked either way
grave ravine
do you think the japanese wouldve been better off finishing the unryuu's instead...
Probably, but it really wouldn't have mattered by that stage of the war
wise vessel
do you have a book with this or something?
eternal veldt
As it stands, Shinano is 50% complete when Pearl Harbour happened
Try Shizuo Fukui's work.
wise vessel
Probably, but it really wouldn't have mattered by that stage of the war
just more ships to scrap lol
eternal veldt
As it stands, Shinano is 50% complete when Pearl Harbour happened
Scrapping takes time, so not ideal
grave ravine
Honestly they probably would have been better off finishing Shinano as a battleship
wise vessel
Try Shizuo Fukui's work.
thanks for letting me know
eternal veldt
Doubtful, Shinano herself even as a Bb is a sub-class of the Yamatos
wise vessel
also i accidentally found this while looking for photos of various aircraft carriers
grave ravine
But like at the end of the day none of it actually matters, because by the time any of these ships are getting built it's already way too late
autumn sorrel
just more ships to scrap lol
Imagine, Chiang Kai Shek have his way and Japan carrier enter chinese navy
eternal veldt
Most things had to be altered anyway
wise vessel
Imagine, Chiang Kai Shek have his way and Japan carrier enter chinese navy
it wouldve either gotten bombed, scuttled, or taken over by the communists lol
eternal veldt
And Japan's air situation after Midway is truly neck deep in shit
wise vessel
akagi couldve gotten out of midway before the battle even started iirc
eternal veldt
The crew and planes are still there, the ships are not
grave ravine
And in a few months the crews wouldn't be there either
grave ravine
And Eastern Solomons, and New Guinea too
eternal veldt
akagi couldve gotten out of midway before the battle even started iirc
Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo, she'll be there
grave ravine
The whole South Pacific was just bad for the IJNAF
eternal veldt
And up until 10AM, the fleet was doing fine
wise vessel
Akagi was the flagship of Nagumo, she'll be there
a bomber almost rammed right into her command tower iirc
eternal veldt
Until the zeros were too fixated on the TBs, and both YT and EN's airgroup arriving dramatically at the same time
Narrow miss from a Marauder, correct
But Enterprise had multiple similar close calls in her life regardless, so I don't see it as a argument of "in trouble"
eternal veldt
Well....more so enemy blunders
wise vessel
itd just be an interesting idea of at least one japanese carrier surviving midway
eternal veldt
Enterprise narrowly avoided sinking at Eastern Solomons
She was crippled and unable to steer after the first attack
The second TB squadron got lost due to botched radio communications and nobody bothering to tell the flight leader updated positions
grave ravine
Though honestly I have some doubts about how much the Zero's would have accomplished against the DBs even if they weren't distracted by the VT-8
eternal veldt
Otherwise, Enterprise would likely be under
subtle prawn
a bomber almost rammed right into her command tower iirc
IGN called it "historical revisionism" when they depicted that in the Midway movie in 2019
wise vessel
IGN called it "historical revisionism" when they depicted that in the Midway mov...
its ign though lol
autumn sorrel
IGN is dumb
eternal veldt
I feel Midway is a cumulation of a bunch of misfortunes and blunders
autumn sorrel
The movie still a mess
eternal veldt
The 10AM situation otherwise could have been averted
grave ravine
It's worth noting though that the USN had its own share of bad luck
eternal veldt
The biggest problem on hand is Coral Sea being a massive fuck up
And depleting Nagumo of the 5th Cardiv entirely
grave ravine
Nimitz had been hoping the subs and Midway aircraft would actually do something
grave ravine
And Hornets air group went to lalaland
eternal veldt
The launch sequence of TF16 was also botched, though I guess it is in hindsight a blessing
grave ravine
And depleting Nagumo of the 5th Cardiv entirely
Nimitz was going to fight Midway even if Zuikaku was there for Japan and Yorktown wasn't for the USN
eternal veldt
It was, but the scales would not be in favour of the USN
wise vessel
what would happen then, if zuikaku was present and yorktown not? a japanese victory?
grave ravine
Lacking Yorktown would have been problematic, especially if Hornets air group again fucks up
subtle prawn
And depleting Nagumo of the 5th Cardiv entirely
Their way of doing things regarding carrier divisions will not allow that
grave ravine
Parshall had a paper on it
wise vessel
do u have a link to the paper?
wise vessel
Their way of doing things regarding carrier divisions will not allow that
they wanted to keep the air groups to the individual carrier, didnt they? or is that not related
eternal veldt
Their way of doing things regarding carrier divisions will not allow that
I meant that 5th Cardiv would not rejoin the Kido Butai until after Midway
grave ravine
do u have a link to the paper?
eternal veldt
Because Shokaku has a hole in the middle of the flight deck, and Zuikaku needs new planes
wise vessel
https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/nwc-review/vol75/iss2/8/
that is a GREAT title oh my lord
subtle prawn
I thought you were referring to the airgroup thing for some reason
eternal veldt
Well that is another valid problem
wise vessel
oh shoot shattered sword, i might have that book downloaded somewhere
eternal veldt
Rigidity of the personnel to their ships