#history
rapid junco
warm finch
If you want to get into it, there's a reddit post on his T-34 video which is pretty much a probe into misinterpretations and myths about it. The guy often mixes Lazerpig with his fans, which is pretty much the only problem. He says that Lazerpig is somewhat correct about most of the things. I.e. that a thing that was correct at one point wasn't correct by the end of the war, thus overgeneralization.
The thing with the T-14 video is that the two main attempts to debunk him were either misguided or straight up just did subpar research. Him not stating his sources, while hypocritical. Does not immediately make everything he says bogus. He basically suggested he would compare notes with RedEffect and Cone if they'd just compare notes with him. And seeing how you worded your response, you don't really care do you?
manic latch
If you want to get into it, there's a reddit post on his T-34 video which is pre...
How can you "debunk" a source that basically is "trust me its true"
Let me do this way
Hey mig-15, I think your heart is very similar to that of your grand cousin
Sure there is a blood relation, sure they look similar, but how can I prove its really that similar unless I cut it out and analyze both of them?
warm finch
How can you "debunk" a source that basically is "trust me its true"
... you usually debunk a point
manic latch
Lazer: it's the copy of German engine because both is X piston style and there is a news article saying that it is
warm finch
And Iam kinda scared of you after the heart analogy
manic latch
Because engines are the heart of tanks
warm finch
Lazer: it's the copy of German engine because both is X piston style and there i...
Terrible example considering he did say he may very well be wrong about it and he will correct himself if he finds satisfactory evidence to the contrary.
manic latch
Terrible example considering he did say he may very well be wrong about it and h...
Ohh did he removed the video?
warm finch
...wha
manic latch
Then it means nothing
But you can see someone who just watched LP by claiming Armata use German engine on internet now since everyone knows it came from LP's mouth
warm finch
Cone removed his video (or atleast I can't find it) does that mean he is entirely wrong? Maybe. Maybe not
manic latch
Just like how they suddenly learned about armor problems of T-34 because they watched LP
warm finch
You just proved my earlier point about the whole argument being like a sewer. We simply won't know until someone either asks about it on the WT forums or someone finds out more information through other means.
manic latch
LP's fanbase is what I call "parrot" fanbase, they will repeat what he says and will be satisfied on the subject he talks about with single video
warm finch
To be frank that is pretty much any internet historians fanbase. You can even see it with the OGs like Potential History.
I mean, unless you actually read the books and do the research yourself, what else are you gonna do if you want to correct people?
shrewd pecan
I can never escape the Pig
warm finch
His videos being as popular as they are, can any of us?
manic latch
To be frank that is pretty much any internet historians fanbase. You can even se...
Drach community is bearable unless it comes to Italian
They repeat the low Italian shell quality of Drach alot
warm finch
See what I mean?
The very nature of these videos encourages parroting what the particular creator says.
If he's spewing bullshit, his followers will also spew bullshit because they don't know better.
eternal veldt
The solution is doing your own research
deep apex
I'll be honest I literally never look at the comments of Drachinifel's videos
autumn sorrel
<:GarfTrollge:902951789924585513> I can never escape the Pig
Pig is cringe, post Rooikat
manic latch
eternal veldt
maiden citrus
somber knoll
t o w e r
supple sandal
I remember people making video about a guy fly a small plane into red square and people keep talking about how the USSR didn't shoot it down or stop the plane by some means
Like "9/11 moment" "common USSR L",
whats no one mentioned is the guy was arrested and fighter pilots has been ordered to not engage
And Soviet is damn if they ever shot the plane down
subtle prawn
hearty dome
Question:
Did the US sent aircraft carrier to Europe during WW2?
warm finch
I believe the USS Ranger bombed some targets in Norway.
chilly osprey
She also took part in Operation Torch (her SBDs are what took Jean Bart out of the fight for good) and I believe also took part in some 'flying off' missions to reinforce Malta.
limber dune
Finished reading Neptune’s Inferno
hows the read
i cant stand to finish it because the file format i have it in isnt a pdf
grave ravine
Question:
Did the US sent aircraft carrier to Europe during WW2?
Wasp was with the British home fleet until June 1942, she did a number of club runs to Malta. Other than Torch Ranger was mostly used to ferry aircraft to Africa, though she would serve with the British home fleet from August to December 1943 (which was when she struck Norway)
subtle prawn
grave ravine
After Midway and the advent of significant numbers of escort carriers British Carrier resources were a lot less strained
near raptor
Just finished reading Japanese Destroyer Captain by Tameichi Hara. It’s a fantastic first person account of an officers perspective in the Pacific War
He gives a first person account of the sinking of Yamato if anyone is interested in that
autumn sorrel
Seyd my love
supple sandal
What US fighters did Vietnam sent to Soviet after 1975?
autumn sorrel
What US fighters did Vietnam sent to Soviet after 1975?
F-5
Got plenty of those from south Vietnam airbase, many were simply in hangar
manic latch
Yup
That's why Topgun actually makes sense still
It won against Mig-21 during the testings
The data from the F-5 tests apparently contributed to the development of the MiG-23.
autumn sorrel
Funnily enough, MiG-23 is when pit against F-5 was out maneuver in many turn.
manic latch
China’s Tiangong space station vs the ISS
desert agate
ISS is notably quite old and getting towards its retirement date
warm finch
That's why Topgun actually makes sense still
Oh boy this is my kind of discussion, the program uses F-5s because they´re good at simulating what the US faced in the last war. That´s why now that the Chinese are encroaching all around the Americans are increasing the amount of F-16s and Hornets in aggressor squadrons
desert agate
There's so many bodge jobs, quick fixes and duct tape solutions on that thing that yeah, it looks like a mess especially since we were still learning how to be most efficient with space in 0 gravity at the time it was built
Tbh the only reason why the Chinese station probably won't look similar in 30 odd years is that the government wants it to look good for photos
thorn trail
There's also the fact that most of the modules in the ISS was kind of constrained in weight and volume being sent up by the Space Shuttle
desert agate
Which I mean is fair enough but that'll probably impede overall operations
thorn trail
Honestly if we had launched the modules on rockets with roughly similar carrying weight as the Space shuttle, we could have made them roomier
subtle prawn
@desert agate Since you know Australian military better than me, what F-111 troubles did the RAAF run into after they purchased it? The TSR-2 video I posted earlier mentioned the RAF decided not to buy them after hearing about them
strong plank
Oh boy this is my kind of discussion, the program uses F-5s because they´re good...
Not even that
they use F-35s to simulate aircraft like the J-20
which is 
manic latch
Because it has stealth geometry like F-35
You can use F-22 as well but they are already on limited number
warm finch
which is <:kekw:843267366111674398>
Not necessarily, the thing with simulated air combat is that you can make up quite a ton of shit to make any aircraft work as anything
warm finch
Underestimating an opponent is exactly how you lose a war.
strong plank
that and they’re not the best match
J-20 and SU-57 skimp on low observability and focus on maneuverability
while the F-35’s no maneuverability slouch itself, it’s got much better stealth
warm finch
Not so much the J-20, most things I´ve been seeing say it´s anywhere between the Eurofighter and the nighthawk
strong plank
Although if you believe internal PLAAF documents the F-35’s more maneuverable than even the J-20
So in both respects you’re practicing against a training opponent that’s more capable than the one you’re training for
which don’t get me wrong, is ideal and how it should go
but you see folks on the US side worrying about the J-20, and then you compare that to this
and it’s very funny
warm finch
Oh I agree just that it´s a good thing lol
strong plank
It’s a good problem to have
spring briar
well we pay taxes for a reason
always good to invest in things that make people cry online
warm finch
wait a minute, are you saying that if I want to contribute to world peace, I should stop paying taxes? How the ass did I not make this connection myself?!?
spring briar
wouldn't you say regal
strong plank
I’d double my federal income tax if they sent me the killcam for the JDAM it helped fund
spring briar
wintry moat
I’d double my federal income tax if they sent me the killcam for the JDAM it hel...
Lmao
supple sandal
China’s Tiangong space station vs the ISS
There is a fuck ton of old computer on the ISS
supple sandal
J-20 and SU-57 skimp on low observability and focus on maneuverability
Wait what, usually I simp for Soviet and Russia equipment but even I thought the Su-57 play the bomber role
tough quail
..why did you think it was a bomber
warm finch
Because of the R-77Ms yet to come into the Su-57s use.
Well, that´s what I presume, or did they rectify that already?
It´s been a while since I looked up the Su-57
tough quail
there's also just the fact bombers don't tend to be this small or single seat
strong plank
The real pak da was the fighter we made along the way
plus aren’t Russian aircraft not really ideal for sead/dead
warm finch
The Russians have kinda said "fuck off" to the whole concept of offensive air operations and decided that maintaining air parity would do.
As supported by the suspicious lack of AWACS and other EW aircraft
spring briar
how to lose a war:
"maintaining air parity will do"
warm finch
Though I guess Iam overgeneralizing quite a bit, since the Russians still somewhat maintain the concept of frontal aviation
spring briar
what's that
warm finch
I haven´t gotten much of a grasp on modern doctrines but the way I understand it is that in an army where frontal aviation is a thing, it´s basically what we in the west would call a tactical air force. In that they support regular troops. Now you might argue "doesn´t that go against the whole maintain air parity thing?" and yes. Do you see the problem once they run into any air force with equal or even competitive amounts of aircraft?
spring briar
c...combined arms warfare?
warm finch
That´s the thing, Iam not very knowledgeable on this topic, so maybe? Probably. I think it´s that with a twist or two. Iam sure if you don´t hear a ramble here and there like me and actually look it up you´ll find it
tough quail
sea sheridan jumpscare
spring briar
wow
wintry moat
Huh
spring briar
hydrofoils are very common for fast transport over calm waters
tough quail
no, this is peak naval warfare
manic latch
As supported by the suspicious lack of AWACS and other EW aircraft
Soviets were starting to look at Awacs and EW concept
But they collapsed during planning/ building stage
Or else production of A-50 would continue
supple sandal
..why did you think it was a bomber
It was few years ago when take a look at that thing and it is big af
manic latch
It was few years ago when take a look at that thing and it is big af
Kinda
supple sandal
Or else production of A-50 would continue
This thing look like it can be an ace combat mini boss
manic latch
Well they usually use Sukhoi as enemy bosses
tough quail
I mean there literally was one in ac7 if you count the ace
manic latch
Like my problem comes from, not many accepts Russian jets are being technology superior to American ones which is generally true. But they still exist as combat capable planes
tough quail
but berkuts and an su-37 was the for realsies bosses
Kremlin I think you said that backwards
supple sandal
Summon 5000 mig-21 to kick 200 F-22
tough quail
one fuck trillion black fishbeds of allah
manic latch
Like Su-57 does have things superior to F-35, like the speed, range, payload. She is bigger and having two engine allows it. Could be better maneuverability wise as well
While we know F-35 has superior electronics, avionics, BVR systems, and jamming
And stealth
tough quail
oh boy
manic latch
F-35 is smaller, has better RAM coating, and better geometry
While Su-57 gives less attention to stealth for other features
Yes could or could not be good move
supple sandal
I need US to tactically aquire an Su-57 to show us how maneuverable that thing is
manic latch
I need Russia to tactically Aquire F-35 to show us her detection rate on latest radars
warm finch
Like Su-57 does have things superior to F-35, like the speed, range, payload. Sh...
Thing is, everyone admits that. They just always add a "Which makes the F-35 better for BVR combat and the Su-57 better for WVR combat"
manic latch
Thing is, everyone admits that. They just always add a "Which makes the F-35 bet...
Nah it's more on scale of
"If you like Su-57, you have to call F-35 trash, overpriced, flawed, inferior"
"If you like F-35, you have to call Su-57 trash, horrible stealth, low production number, bad radar" etc
It's a side block
warm finch
Thing with the Felon is that all the evidence to the contrary to it being subpar as a stealth aircraft comes from sources that aren´t exactly known for their reliability.
grave ravine
Su-57 is a heavy fighter akin to F-22 and J-20, F-35 is a light fighter
similar to the difference between Mig-29 and Su-27, or F-15 and F-16
manic latch
Su-57 is unique because she is heavy multirole
F-35 is light multirole
F-22 and J-20 are air superiority heavy
grave ravine
F-22 and J-20 are multirole
grave ravine
they are as much as Su-57 is
warm finch
F-22 and J-20 are multirole
That honestly depends on your definition.
manic latch
No, F-22 was literally designed as air superiority from base
That's why F-22 can't use much ground gear as F-35 or even 15 can use irrc
grave ravine
F-22 carries a heavier bombload than Su-57 does
has access to a wider array of strike options
grave ravine
and F-22 has been used extensively in strike roles
warm finch
No, F-22 was literally designed as air superiority from base
So was the Su-27, after some adjustments its newest versions are usually branded as a multirole
grave ravine
F-22 can carry the two primary strike tools of the USAF internally, JDAM and SDB
manic latch
and F-22 has been used extensively in strike roles
Because that's literally best way she can be useful now, not many enemies she fights actually has planes
grave ravine
and its got external pylons rated for a variety of other ones
warm finch
Because that's literally best way she can be useful now, not many enemies she fi...
You literally just agreed with him
manic latch
Chinese Baloon
grave ravine
F-35 has greater strike options than any other 5th gen
but claiming Su-57 is multirole but F-22 isn't is just wrong
manic latch
F-35 has greater strike options than any other 5th gen
Yes she was designed as multirole fighter
grave ravine
F-22 has access to a greater array of strike options than Su-57 does
and has a history of using them in combat
manic latch
CHIEF
Ok
Difference between
First F-15
Vs
Strike Eagle
Who is better for ground strike
grave ravine
F-22 was desgined with the capability to use JDAM
and with external pylons for other strike options
manic latch
F-22 was desgined with the capability to use JDAM
Chief...
She can only use this two
grave ravine
external pylons
manic latch
Chief, she isn't a multirole, that's why air to ground is this low by weapon choise
grave ravine
F-22 can carry a variety of weapons on external pylons
like every other 5th gen fighter
warm finch
I got the wiki definition for you,
"A multirole combat aircraft (MRCA) is a combat aircraft intended to perform different roles in combat. These roles can include air to air combat, air support, aerial bombing, reconnaissance, electronic warfare, and suppression of air defenses."
The F-22 qualifies.
manic latch
F-22 can carry a variety of weapons on external pylons
She cannot carry these like F-35 can. Because F-35 is a multirole
F-22 can't use most of these
She is focused on air superiority by electronics
grave ravine
She cannot carry these like F-35 can. Because F-35 is a multirole
do you see how many are still under integration?
F-35 is getting new weapons integrated
while F-22 isnt
grave ravine
cuz F-22 is going to be out of service in a decade
grave ravine
yeah
grave ravine
it could
grave ravine
the USAF doesn't want to pay for integrating new weapons systems though
because the plane is going out of service soon
warm finch
Okay Krem, let´s see here, is the F/A-18 Legacy Hornet suddenly not a multirole because the Super Hornet can carry different payloads to it?
manic latch
Uhh no because Hornet was always had multirole by design
So she was never air superiority focus as mission
wintry moat
What’s the argument?
manic latch
What’s the argument?
F-22 is multirole not air superiority
grave ravine
Krem is claiming Su-57 is more multirole than F-22
manic latch
Which is wrong
grave ravine
or J-20
manic latch
J-20 is also air superiority
wintry moat
idk, not familiar with either besides basic Modern Airplane, Advanced, and US uses em
I was just curious
grave ravine
J-20 also carries a variety of ordinance on underwing pylons
manic latch
J-20 also carries a variety of ordinance on underwing pylons
.....
This is even worse than F-22 one if you relaise
grave ravine
you know wikipedia doesn't have everything on it
manic latch
They are air superiority
wintry moat
What’s an Anti Rad Missile?
manic latch
Anti radar
grave ravine
What’s an Anti Rad Missile?
homes in on radar emmissions, used for SEAD
wintry moat
Oh
warm finch
The Americans are the undeclared kings of adapting aircraft to different roles during their service lifes.
manic latch
you know wikipedia doesn't have everything on it
Ok show me J-20 actually carrying a ground ordinance
Other than anti radar
You cant
It's air superiority fighter
It's weapons are focused for air
Thus the air superiority
warm finch
For the record, the J-20 is being utilised by one of the few air forces in the world that does not like boasting about how all the new air-to-ground weapons fit into their stealth fighters IWB.
chilly osprey
Uh...
Yeah, no, Kremlin is right here. F-22 and J-20 are both designed as air superiority fighters, though both can also do ground attack.
But it's a limited capability lacking in stand-off weapons.
wintry moat
it’s not meant to ground pound but it can
chilly osprey
Su-57 is very much intended a multirole strike fighter that can do air to air but also standoff air to ground.
You get far more options with it than F-22 or J-20.
F-35 and J-35 are, realistically, the counterparts to Su-57.
manic latch
Thanks Phoenix, was expecting Tato to help out first 
warm finch
Intention is almost never the eventual execution. Just because it´s designed as something, doesn´t mean it´s gonna be used as something. Take the British Typhoon, switched from a fighter to an attacker.
manic latch
Intention is almost never the eventual execution. Just because it´s designed as ...
Typhoon is a fighter-bomber
Wait which Typhoon
warm finch
The WW2 one.
manic latch
Fighter bomber yes
Ww2 multirole
If you have air superiority fighter. And you want it to do good ground striking
You create a land strike variant, it will sacrifice its AA capabilities but will be good at ground strikes
If your plane is always designed as a multirole? It will never need such variants
F-35 will not get a ground strike variant
Because it's already multirole design
Making her ground strike would only give it more ammo, similar to F-16XL
warm finch
Amount of weapons does not apply to whether an aircraft is a multirole or not. What matters is if it is capable of performing the tasks at hand. The F-22 can serve as an attacker as well as an air superiority fighter. It being better at being an air superiority fighter is largely irrelevant
haughty osprey
The F-22 is capable of dropping A2G munitions and has the means to do so as part of a mission set. It is certainly a "multirole" aircraft in any sense of the world.
The F-15C is capable of doing so but does not generally carry A2G munitions as it is predominantly an air superiority fighter.
The F-15E actively uses A2G munitions as part of its mission set as a strike aircraft, while also having A2A munitions loaded onboard for various reasons. It is absolutely a multirole.
manic latch
The F-22 is capable of dropping A2G munitions and has the means to do so as part...
Then there is no "air superiority fighter" class
Because everything becomes multirole when you slap a bomb on it?
chilly osprey
It depends on how literal you want to be about it.
All fighter aircraft are multirole to some degree now
But there's a big difference between those that are designed to carry significant payloads of stand-off weapons versus just bombs, even if they are still PGMs.
haughty osprey
Because everything becomes multirole when you slap a bomb on it?
The argument hedges on how pedantic one wants to be regarding definitions. Just like how warships are classified, planes too can be the subject of immense fuckery and politics.
The F-15 platform was specifically envisioned as an air-superiority fighter, especially with the motto of "Not a pound for air-to-ground". The F-15A and F-15C are clearly air superiority fighters as they are not in any sense meant to deploy A2G as their typical mission set. They could, but seldom do.
The F-22 began with a similar process early on but firmly ended up having the ability to include A2G as part of its payload. It is a multirole-capable aircraft that typically serves in an air-superiority role.
The F-15E is a different version of the F-15 platform that was absolutely and totally modified to have A2G as an integral part of its mission-set, if not its predominant mission. It can still perform an A2A mission if necessary, albeit with reduced agility due to increased weight and a second seat. It is undoubtedly a proper multirole.
warm finch
I think you can put all this on a spectrum. As in there´s fighter on one end and attacker on the other
haughty osprey
I think you can put all this on a spectrum. As in there´s fighter on one end and...
For extra shits and giggles add another axis for whether it's a "strategic" or "tactical" aircraft
warm finch
I think you just gave me a brain aneurysm.
haughty osprey
"What the fuck is a strategic air superiority fighter?"
"Arsenal Bird."
warm finch
...wait a fucking minute
manic latch
@tough quail
Tu-504
Based on "85"(which forms from Tu-80 who was improved Tu-4), developed strategic heavy bomber. As hydro-airplane, it was planned to be refueled from submarine, in order to reach USA coast and get back.
Year: 1950-1953
Engine: ASh-2K (TVD-1)
Span: 56 m
Lenght: 44 m
Height: 12 m
Max speed: 580 km/h
Cruise -
Range: 10000 km
MTOW: 104000 kg
Armament: 3x2x23 mm
Bombs: 1x 6000 kg
Crew: 12
manic latch
woke as hell
Tu-85 is max woke. It's the last evolution of Tu-4.
Carry 2 9000kg bombs
Cutie
It was the ultimate development of the B-29 family, being over 50% heavier than its progenitor and had nearly double the range. Only two prototypes were built before the program was cancelled in favor of the turboprop powered Tupolev Tu-95 bomber which could cover the same range at a far higher speed.
tough quail
horrifying creature
warm finch
<@84008086733324288>
Tu-504
Based on "85"(which forms from Tu-80 who was impro...
Iam not sure if I should get the designer a therapist or applaud him. And now that I think about it, probably both.
subtle prawn
subtle prawn
manic latch
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/how-ngad-will-sense-communicate-and-jam-could-be-revolutionary
I don't like the word game changer but potential is indeed very good
strong plank
"What the fuck is a strategic air superiority fighter?"
"Arsenal Bird."
I forget the exact document or press release
But I remember an article on NGAD going “technically a B-21 with directed energy weapons would count as ‘next generation air dominance’”
delicate jacinth
I like planes ✈️ 🛫🛩️🛬
autumn sorrel
I like shooting down plane
subtle prawn
delicate jacinth
Oopsie
desert agate
<@286885038208057344> Since you know Australian military better than me, what F-...
The prototype of the TSR-2 was further advanced in mid-1963 than that of the TFX. The American Defense Department predicted that, as soon as Congressional approval would be obtained, an order for 1,700 planes would be placed, while the British contemplated a maximum production of 195 planes. The evaluation team concluded that, once production commenced on the TFX, the Americans with greater production capacity would overtake the British, and that the F-lll would be operational as soon as or earlier than the TSR-2. It was also estimated that the higher production goal would produce a per-plane cost more favourable than any thing the British would be able to offer.
But in October, 1963 the U.S. Government had not even let a firm production contract. The plane was still in such an early stage of development, and there were so many revolutionary aviation concepts in its design, that estimating the ultimate unit cost of the aircraft was almost impossible. Several estimates were available, varying from one based on the low contract bid by General Dynamics Corporation to a higher estimate by the Hancock mission and the even higher figure picked up by the press from United States Defense Department officials.
Although Australia originally planned to buy the American F-111A design, RAAF liaison officers requested country-specific changes such as a long-distance radio, Aeronautical Research Laboratories in Melbourne participated in an intake redesign and provided metal fatigue expertise, and an Australian test pilot evaluated the Australian version’s longer wings and performance in tropical conditions. The differences from the F-111A caused it to be designated the F-111C in 1966.
Training began in 1967, with RAAF personnel seeing terrain-following radar and other sophisticated equipment for the first time. However, development delays and structural problems delayed acceptance of aircraft by the RAAF until 1973. These issues were mainly to do with the wing attach points, and the redesign of the F-111 engine intakes. Completion of contractual requirements to the satisfaction of Australia also took time, damaging the morale of the hundreds of trained RAAF personnel who had little to do. The program costs, during 1963–1967, grew at an alarming rate; estimates by the USAF at the start of the program was placed at US$124.5 million, but by April 1967 had risen to $237.75 million. While the initial price of US$5.21 million per aircraft was capped at US$5.95 million, R&D, labor, and other costs were not. The rising price, three unexplained losses of USAF F-111As in Vietnam during their first month of deployment, and the British and U.S. Navy’s orders’ cancellations caused further controversy in Australia during 1968
the biggest design flaw which caused major delays was the engine intake metal fatigue issue, which forced the Americans to redesign, and rebuild a number of Australian F-111Cs
sorry for the late response btw, i went to sleep
subtle prawn
Understandable
subtle prawn
manic latch
Lockheed: you can get an F-35 for only 100 mil
Customer: Nice
Lockheed: But you gonna pay +42k per hour to fly it
Customer: oh..
strong plank
that's maint/sustainment costs
warm finch
Lockheed: you can get an F-35 for only 100 mil
Customer: Nice
Lockheed: But yo...
Use expensive technology have expensive prices.
warm finch
It´s a play on "play stupid games win stupid prizes"
Feel free to shame me for that pun.
warm finch
I... actually don´t hate that quite as much as I should
strong plank
But yeah the flight time cost is just sustainment and maintenance costs
I forget the exact number but the B-52 has a pretty dummy high rate
warm finch
Hell from what I can read the average A variant is gonna cost about as much as an Eagle II. In that it´s roughly 80 mil
subtle prawn
grave ravine
So about CPFH, I would note a lot comes down to how it is calculated
The 40k figure for example includes labor costs, but a lot of the time when aircraft are being marketed abroad they exclude labor costs
Because they are highly variable from country to country
pallid grove
Interesting. Watching a video on the battle of Guadalcanal, and they claim that the USS Washington essentially won the campaign by herself. Thoughts?
tough quail
complete nonsense
grave ravine
as a little counterfactual, if the US were to lose the night action of the 14th-15th, that would mean that 4 transports at best would make it instead of 0
out of the original 11 dispatched
remember Enterprise is also still in the area
pallid grove
It was the night she sunk the Kirishima that they are claiming was the final straw, eventually leading the Japanese to give hup
grave ravine
and even were all 11 to make it with all the supplies and troops, you are still looking at a smaller resupply effort than what the US got ashore a couple nights before
grave ravine
It was the night she sunk the Kirishima that they are claiming was the final str...
It and the attacks by Henderson the next morning were the final straw
but the campaign was effectively decided by the victory(ish) of the night of the 12th-13th
if not earlier
Japan simply took way too long to start ramping up the forces they were committing to Guadalcanal, and failed to take advantage of the period after Savo where the USN was all but absent from the area
pallid grove
I've been really impressed with this podcast: Unauthorized History of the Pacific War, if anyone wants to check it out. Obviously her winning the campaign by herself is a gross oversimplification of what happened
grave ravine
yeah thats a good series
Drachinifel also has a good series on the night actions of the campaign
and he recently had Hone and Parshall on to talk about the tactics of the night actions
pallid grove
I've watched more than a few of his stories, but for some reason I don't find him as interesting as a lot of people do. He certainly knows his stuff, but I find him hard to listen to for long periods
grave ravine
These two videos are a good watch, he has a couple other historians who studied this on to discuss it
Its more about the tactics than the strategic picture though
pallid grove
Nice, thanks
grave ravine
Jon Parshall has a number of other good talks that you can find online as well
As does Richard Frank, though he is not in this video
spring briar
manic latch
@tough quail It's a Soviet tradition to make new ship sea trials in rough seas at high speed. Here is Kirov
wintry moat
That’s a heck of a bow slope
manic latch
That’s a heck of a bow slope
It's taller than hull of Yamato yes
warm finch
Presumably? It´s a feature on most Soviet and Russian ships to have the bow have a noticable elevation
Here´s the late Moskva and the Admiral Gorshkov. (It´s not as easy to notice on the Gorshkov hence the drawing)
Hell you could argue the cope slope on the Kuznetsovs is a conscious sidegrade for icebreaking.
manic latch
Ice breaking?
Anti wave
warm finch
Hell you could argue the cope slope on the Kuznetsovs is a conscious sidegrade f...
Tho then again the ships are so massive it´s kinda redundant.
manic latch
Hell you could argue the cope slope on the Kuznetsovs is a conscious sidegrade f...
Here Gorshkov
It's normal level high
warm finch
Here Gorshkov
It´s a weird angle. On some aerial photos like this one you can kinda see the slope. Or I presume it to be a slope?
Might just be my 3AM vision though...
warm finch
I figure a smaller slope does make some sort of sense, smaller ship, less surface area being held up by the ice? Idk I almost failed middle school physics
manic latch
When Marshal Ustinov visited US. Her bow gave high ground to American bow
Cool pic ngl
Sadly dont know what US ship she was looking at
manic latch
That’s a heck of a bow slope
It's a thing that goes in since ww2 designs. Especially Soyuz
Compare it to Kirov
wintry moat
Was Soyuz ever finished?
manic latch
Was Soyuz ever finished?
Ww2 happened
wintry moat
so no
wintry moat
Ah
eternal veldt
but the campaign was effectively decided by the victory(ish) of the night of the...
@grave ravine I think it should be kept in mind that it was the double loss of Hiei and Kirishima, combined with the heavy attrition suffered from previous sorties, convinced the IJN to pull out
Both Savo Island and First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal were decent opportunities to strike a heavier blow, but were not exploited for obvious reasons.
Oh dear, not sure why it pinged. Sorry.
Also interesting is that the duo of Kongou and Haruna were not brought into the slot, but held back to escort Jun'you instead.
strong plank
You also can’t discount the cactus Air Force
who made it virtually impossible for the Japanese forces on Guadalcanal to resupply via transport barge, thus necessitating the use of destroyers (which in turn limited the amount of supplies the Japanese could bring to their forces)
subtle prawn
eternal veldt
who made it virtually impossible for the Japanese forces on Guadalcanal to resup...
Which is why I mentioned "heavy attrition from previous sorties"
Beaching your DD then getting it pounded anyway is no bueno
manic latch
Think I'm drunk so I can be more self honest now
I am jealous of US technology and innovation for their military
Pre ww2 market or especially ww1 market was really good since governments didn't really had that much control on what war machine companies can sell whom to
So it would he a super interesting concept for me to see a Kirov with Aegis radar and MK.41 VLS system
While keeping some domesticity through ciws and guns
And hull of course
eternal veldt
Battleship USS California (BB-44) under construction at the Mare Island Naval Shipyard, Vallejo, California, 1921.
grave ravine
<@428761337859145731> I think it should be kept in mind that it was the double l...
So I disagree with this sentiment
The loss of Hiei and Kirishima was bad obviously
But at the end of the day the IJN considered these valuable but still expendable units, like the many cruisers and destroyers they had lost in this campaign
The problem was simply for all that sacrifice, the supplies did not get through
That's the reason they cut their losses and pulled out
eternal veldt
Why not both?
grave ravine
They were incapable of even keeping significant forces on the island fed, let alone armed
grave ravine
Why not both?
I mean I would argue that the supply situation was the driving cause
And that attrition they were suffering was secondary to their decision to pull out
I would contend that the IJN would have been willing to suffer the level of attrition if they were actually going to win the land battle on Guadalcanal
eternal veldt
It was both though, attrition and failing to supply the land forces
grave ravine
Otherwise they would not have repeatedly risked these units
And that's why I argue the campaign was lost in the first night of the big battle
Because it was the failure to bombard the airfield that night that got the transports chewed up
eternal veldt
Valid points.
grave ravine
Frankly the IJN ought to have cut their losses after the 13th, rather than committing to two more nights of bombardment and continuing to try and run the transports in
Because the bombardment on the 14th with cruisers was worthless, and they knew that
And the bombardment on the 15th, even had it succeeded would have only got a couple transports to successfully complete a 1 way mission
Which was not going to alleviate the supply crisis
eternal veldt
losing a CA on the 14th, I believe? The Kinugasa?
grave ravine
Yeah, not sure which one
But it was escorting the transports when the convoy got hit by Henderson and Enterprise
Also sidenote, Jun'yo was utterly useless in this battle
eternal veldt
The only effective bombardment I can think of were the Kongou/Haruna one post-Cape Esperance
grave ravine
But the Japanese decision to continue after they had clearly lost the battle has clear parallels elsewhere
grave ravine
The only effective bombardment I can think of were the Kongou/Haruna one post-Ca...
Yeah, they had intended to repeat that on the 13th, but as we all know an American Cruiser-Destroyer force repulsed it
In an incredibly bloody night action
IMO this was the decisive moment of the campaign
Though it can be argued that even had it all gone to plan the IJA may still have not been able to dislodge the marines at Henderson
eternal veldt
It didn't stop the Japanese from trying again, especially after relieving Abe of command
grave ravine
Yeah
I personally believe though that they ought not to
And that really they ought to have seen that
Though the IJN had a real issue with sunk cost
eternal veldt
I think it's a matter of saving face as well
grave ravine
Yeah
eternal veldt
the IJA committed their forces to the theatre, therefore so should the navy
grave ravine
I was recently reading an article by Parshall discussing how culturally it was expected that you always had to try your best to salvage a situation, even if you failed
eternal veldt
It's a matter of honour, yes
grave ravine
We can see similar parallels in the way Nagumo risked Hiryuu at the end of Midway
And with the way they prosecuted the war more broadly
eternal veldt
Agreed. You also see parallels with Ten-Go, known to have a high failure, if not suicidal rates
committed nonetheless, after Hirohito questioned the navy's value
thorny patio
So regarding Napoleon....
He's a controversial figure no doubts about it, tho his reforms to the French state, especially the military, made france an absolute juggernaut.
I think his positive achievements give him enough credit that his name could be used for a ship.
And considering Frances historical disdain for other nations dictating what it can and can't do...
Like, De Gaulle out right left the NATO command structure because he wanted his military to be headed by those in FRANCE.
Saying "oh, but NATO wouldn't really approve" is begging the question "would NATO really pick an argument over the name of a ship?"
glass trail
okay, but remember when he invaded russia and russia didnt even fight back but he still lost
grave ravine
Russia very much did fight back
thorny patio
okay, but remember when he invaded russia and russia didnt even fight back but h...
Not saying he was infallible, he still tried to conquer Europe in the name of republicanism
But he championed a lot of reforms that, even after his downfall, made sure that France was seen as a continental power to be respected.
glass trail
Russia very much did fight back
i would argue that weather did most of the work
half the war was the russians burning everything and retreating
glass trail
yes
and i would argue that they lost the battle because logistics was so poor
not because the russians were a better fighting force
grave ravine
They didn't lose the battle
But they suffered heavy enough losses
To render it a pyrrhic victory at best
And they only barely managed to even do that
glass trail
grave ravine
Due to the ineptitude of the Russians on the battlefield
glass trail
Due to the ineptitude of the Russians on the battlefield
yes
thorny patio
and i would argue that they lost the battle because logistics was so poor
The logistics of the campaign were always going to go against Napoleon simply because he was outstretching his forces by the time he reached Moscow
Napoleons biggest ace was his aptitude for SPEED
glass trail
and that worked against him
grave ravine
Russian leaders actually fought a very effective delaying campaign
Before picking their ground well to fight
Remember at the outset of the campaign French forces outnumbered Russian ones 3 to 1
thorny patio
The issue for the Russians however wasn't non-existent.
As they continued to fall back, they gave up more and more land, all while torching it... The longer they denied Napoleon his fight, the more innocent bystanders they crossed and ruined...
The Russians were essentially commiting to a self inflicted "chevauche" and there was always the risk of being out flanked or inviting rebellion
grave ravine
Yeah
thorny patio
I hope I spelled that right
grave ravine
In the end Russian leadership actually handled the war quite well
thorny patio
In the end Russian leadership actually handled the war quite well
They handled the Russian campaign well... Before then... They were meh at best
grave ravine
They measured pretty well how far they could retreat before making a stand
grave ravine
They handled the Russian campaign well... Before then... They were meh at best
Oh yeah
Their performance elsewhere in the Napoleonic wars was mixed at best
This campaign is basically the one shining bright spot on their record
thorny patio
Everyone tends to overlook the Russians defense as nothing more than "Napoleon was doomed to fail"
He wasn't, he could have won if the tsar took the bait.
grave ravine
Yeah
In fact despite the effective defense put up by Russia
It still got very close to being a French victory
Had Borodino been a more decisive victory for the French
That would be that
thorny patio
Napoleon knew all he had to do was defeat the tsar...
What doomed him was partly his own ego, and his enemies stalwart resolve... With a WHOLE LOT OF LUCK
grave ravine
Which in the end kind of switches it from Napoleon failing on a strategic level to a tactical one
He didn't win one of the few battles he really needed to
thorny patio
Tbf, his Russian campaign wasn't the big issue... It was Trafalgar
Trafalgar fucked him
Nelson fucked him
Because honestly, the Russians could be mediated with...
The British? No, never in a million years
grave ravine
Yeah, and the British had a lot of money
They could pay the Austrians to keep throwing armies away
And everyone else
thorny patio
Which was why Napoleon instituted the continental system in the first place.
When you think about it, every action Napoleon took was to some effect an act of severing Britains dominance over continental Europe
Which by the end of the wars, the British agreed with anyways XD
So in a way, Napoleon got what he wanted
Even in monarchical kingdoms like Prussia, his actions resulted in the liberalization of it's institutions.
And the only power that resisted these reforms, Russia, collapsed after another century of absolutism
So yes, I think the man is okay to have ships named after him
autumn sorrel
French next CV “Napoleon” or “Bonaparte”
eternal veldt
Yea, no
eternal veldt
Napoleon basically snubbed on the navy, Trafalgar remains one of the bigger French naval defeats under his leadership, and so is Nile
the only ship you ever got named Napoleon is the screw frigate, and that is only under Napoleon III's rule
not those of the French Republics
It's about as awkward as naming a ship "Villeneuve" or a british ship "Byng"
autumn sorrel
Or german ship as “Dönitz” 
autumn sorrel
Wait, fr?
eternal veldt
tough quail
..in the 60s even
wintry moat
AND ITS LUTJENS Class
thorny patio
Damn German revisionism is going hard
wintry moat
what
tough quail
holy fuck
wintry moat
what thine fuck
autumn sorrel
..in the *60s* even
Tbf, Rommel is the least controversial one
eternal veldt
Germans don't follow the French system, so yea, leave them alone
tough quail
god no wonder the bundeswehr is full of fucking neo nazis if NATO let them get away with this shit
eternal veldt
Just don't go ahead and name a French ship "Napoleon"
autumn sorrel
god no wonder the bundeswehr is full of fucking neo nazis if NATO let them get a...
Who do you think make up the majority of their army after ww2
thorny patio
To be fair a lot of West German military in back in the day was were carryovers from the westmont so that's just a given
F*** autocorrect
tough quail
im aware
they also should not have been allowed to idolize them lmao
especially barely two decades later lmfao
thorny patio
Issue was they had to have an army of some sort after world war II because you know that Big Red menace on the
And the German military was already very experienced in combating the Red menace
wintry moat
I’m just surprised that everyone went along with that naming scheme
autumn sorrel
I’m just surprised that everyone went along with that naming scheme
Like I said, Rommel is the least controversial one
thorny patio
A lot of time when into reworking Admiral Donuts image as he wasn't necessarily the closest to the Nazi ideology so people are starting to realize that yes he was in fact they not see
wintry moat
What are more Controversial ones then?
thorny patio
F*** autocorrect I am currently doing something so I have to be hands-free
eternal veldt
Manstein comes to mind
tough quail
i know why nazi apologism and whitewashing happened
that does not make it a good thing
autumn sorrel
What are more Controversial ones then?
Manstein, Raeder, Donitz,….
thorny patio
Is it still acceptable if they name the ship trains Oregon Prince Eugene
thorny patio
Oh oh oh, modern ship name it koenigsberg
tough quail
yes
thorny patio
That'll get a ride out of the Russians
tough quail
...would it?
i think they would just laugh at them given they... actually have koenigsberg
thorny patio
Considering koenigsberg is currently called f****** I can't remember the name but it's Russian
wintry moat
Modern Graf Spee
autumn sorrel
then call it Paulus
They nearly have ship call Karl Marx
tough quail
naming your ship after annexed territory sounds a lot more like cope than ownzoning the reds
thorny patio
You could probably actually get away with a lot of world war 1 names considering they weren't entirely connected to Nazi ideology there's more of a chance than them being named after a Nazi person
tough quail
anyway yes eugen or konigsberg or like
thorny patio
Like I can see another Bismarck or another Wilhelm II, but I don't see them naming a ship after Raider
tough quail
nearly any ww2 ship name would be more acceptable
because they're mostly named after cities and earlier officials and not..
the upper brass of the third fucking reich
wintry moat
so, besides destroying a small British Squadron, what else did Spee Accomplish before his death?
eternal veldt
Make Derfflinger real again
grave ravine
Manstein, Raeder, Donitz,….
I don't think they named any ships after them
thorny patio
Well what about carpets that seems like a any name after an admiral seems okay
tough quail
can you try to actually type shit thats legible
eternal veldt
so, besides destroying a small British Squadron, what else did Spee Accomplish b...
Spee did a number on merchant ships
thorny patio
T i r p t i z
autumn sorrel
I don't think they named any ships after them
They are more… involved than Rommel hence more taboo
tough quail
mtl is more readable than this
eternal veldt
and that is why massive amount of ships were sent out ot get rid of her
tough quail
yeah tirpitz would be fine
thorny patio
Trying to trying to pronounce this wallet autocorrects is killing me
tough quail
they could shit out scharn/gneis/bisko/tirpitz immediately after ww2 and it would be a lot less weird than
lutjens and rommel
grave ravine
They are more… involved than Rommel hence more taboo
Yeah, though even Rommel was involved, he ought not to have had a ship named after him
thorny patio
The first chancellor of the vima Republic that guy seems I've read about him he doesn't seem like the worst person
autumn sorrel
lutjens and rommel
Lutzen is a town
grave ravine
they could shit out scharn/gneis/bisko/tirpitz immediately after ww2 and it woul...
They made a Scharnhorst
eternal veldt
That Lutjens is named after Guther Lutjens
grave ravine
As well as Hipper, Graf Spee, Scheer
thorny patio
Okay I can't do this anymore I I need to put my phone down I will talk in about 30-20 minutes?
grave ravine
Now they are only naming ships after places though
eternal veldt
it's less controversial than humans at least
autumn sorrel
Yeah, though even Rommel was involved, he ought not to have had a ship named aft...
Out of all the ww2 German, Rommel get the best treatment, suicide on order of Hitler make him more sympathetic in the Allied eyes and bc of his extended campaign in the North Africa and his supervision of the Atlantic Wall, Rommel family can claim he have no knowledge or not participate in Nazi shit.
eternal veldt
Japan's smart with the names
places, phenomena, never humans, lest they bear the shame of sinking
grave ravine
Out of all the ww2 German, Rommel get the best treatment, suicide on order of Hi...
Sure, except it's all lies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rommel_myth
tough quail
"can claim" being the operative words
grave ravine
Yeah
eternal veldt
Eh, "Morning Tide" is badass enough
autumn sorrel
Sure, except it's all lies https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rommel_myth
I never said it was true
grave ravine
Fair enough
tough quail
imagine naming your shit after dudes when you can name shit DAYBREAK and GREAT PHOENIX
autumn sorrel
Fair enough
Personally, I do believe Rommel is a good soldier and leader to a certain extent and even a honorable man but not to the point of believing all of the revisionist history about him.
wintry moat
Pull a Halo
eternal veldt
Daybreak...Akatsuki?
tough quail
Daybreak...Akatsuki?
shinonome
wintry moat
Fucking send it
tough quail
akatsuki is dawn, so close
alpine onyx
Name em after moons
wintry moat
Whole fleet named Luna?
eternal veldt
I mean, Saturn I, Saturn II sounds hella confusing, and if we go after their actual names, that's just going to be greek/roman mythology
eternal veldt
But, names after the seas of the moon sounds interesting
wintry moat
never though of that
eternal veldt
Mare Tranquillatiris, Mare Frigoris, that'd be interesting
eternal veldt
akatsuki is dawn, so close
always forgot that Shinonome is not "East Clouds" 
wintry moat
I take it that’s a Soviet ship?
manic latch
Gremyashchy is clearly Italian name
tough quail
they translated thunderer to russian by accident
wintry moat
wait am I stupid and your pulling my leg
manic latch
they translated thunderer to russian by accident
Gremyashchy still exists today 
wintry moat
Gremyashchy still exists today <:Sadge:713860022786064486>
Better than a lot of ships can say
tough quail
man i didn't know gremy got nuked
wintry moat
Mmm tetnis
manic latch
man i didn't know gremy got nuked
Shows lack of research on Soviet Navy tbh
Everyone knows about US nuking ships
0 knowledge about Soviets also doing it
manic latch
man i didn't know gremy got nuked
She was with Stremitelny too
wintry moat
Least your ship isn’t a laughing stock cuz she got one tapped
subtle prawn
alpine onyx
People probably don't know about that because there were no high profile ships getting nuked, like Saratoga, Nagato, Nevada, Prinz Eugen
tough quail
taiho is in my top two favorite carriers
so i also live in that agony
everything sucks and i hate it
eternal veldt
I mean, not like the Soviets were open about what ships they nuked until the archives opened ~1990s
so good luck getting anglo literature written on such specifics
alpine onyx
Realistically, how many destroyers can one name that were sunk during Crossroads?
eternal veldt
Same kind of stuff with "Chinese nuking"
alpine onyx
Battleships, cruisers and carriers? Ez. But destroyers? Gotta pass
wintry moat
All the Clemson?
eternal veldt
like WG claiming the prototypes of WZ-132 and 121 getting trashed at nuclear testing
believe it or not, Laffey DD-724 was nuked
wintry moat
I imagine a large contingent of pre-war DDs saw the light
tough quail
believe it or not, Laffey DD-724 was nuked
wat
manic latch
my lifes only purpose is to accrue more suffering
Her wreck covered in snow every winter
subtle prawn
One of the Sims-class got nuked, but I don't remember which one it was
manic latch
Her wreck covered in snow every winter
Gremyashchy deserved better
eternal veldt
Anderson
tough quail
Her wreck covered in snow every winter
my baby 
autumn sorrel
And the ol girl still pull through
tough quail
i was about to fucking say
eternal veldt
yea, I misremembered - She was at crossroads, just not nuked
thorny patio
Also, would it be kosher for a Japanese ship to be named after Hirohito?
Or any of the emperor's for that matter
tough quail
prooobably wanna avoid that one
everyone else who cares, though it would almost certainly be Showa instead and similar for the rest
and doesnt fit with naming convention thus far
thorny patio
Hirohito is somewhat an interesting case as his image got substantially rehabilitated after the war
wintry moat
So do any of you know if any of the Mackensens were finished?
strong plank
Yeah like uh
subtle prawn
None
strong plank
The Japanese didn’t really name their ships after people
thorn trail
their naming conventions have been geographical aspects
so naming it after people would be weird
eternal veldt
I don't think you really want to name a ship after Hirohito
naming a ship Kaga was already making a neighbouring nation rather upset for good reason
thorny patio
What was kaga s namesake?
subtle prawn
Province of Japan
thorny patio
Doesn't seem that bad
eternal veldt
You better not know where Kaga was during 1937 then
subtle prawn
China
alpine onyx
Bombing Chinese civilians
thorny patio
Oooooh
Wait okay are we talking about the ship from ww2 and why a modern ship named after THAT SHIP is bad or why the name "Kaga" in general is bad?
grave ravine
It's problematic for multiple reasons
thorny patio
You know whatd be cheeky of the UK to do?
Name a modern ship "nemesis" and sail it around Hong Kong.
Please tell me someone gets that
eternal veldt
We're unlikely to give a shit about that
The Brits already commissioned a new HMS Tamar
thorny patio
You know what I never understood...
Why was their a us ship named SAIPAN
subtle prawn
Named for the Battle of Saipan
thorny patio
Oh okay fair
subtle prawn
Yeah, but Saipan was a CVL, not a CVE
thorny patio
And Bataan?
subtle prawn
Battle of Bataan
thorny patio
Damn didn't these ships participate in ww2? How quickly were these things being chugged out?
grave ravine
Yeah, but Saipan was a CVL, not a CVE
CVLs were also mostly named for battles
grave ravine
Damn didn't these ships participate in ww2? How quickly were these things being ...
Very
eternal veldt
Escort carriers were more...whatever bay they could dig up
at least for Casablanca
Kitkun Bay, Shamrock Bay, Gambier Bay, etc.
strong plank
Damn didn't these ships participate in ww2? How quickly were these things being ...
Independence was commissioned in 1943
You’re a year into the war by then
eternal veldt
Ah, and then there's rivers for the Sangamons as well
thorny patio
Independence was commissioned in 1943
Tho wasn't she originally supposed to be a cruiser?
strong plank
Yes
grave ravine
Of the 9 Indeps, 6 are named after battles
subtle prawn
Cleveland-class
strong plank
The independences were built on Cleveland hulls
independence was originally to be named Amsterdam
Sorry Sang
thorny patio
Their fast building makes sense
grave ravine
The ones not named after battles were Independence, Langley, and Cabot
thorny patio
Langely got grandfathered in as she wasn't originally a carrier
And didn't remain a carrier either
strong plank
Langley was named for an aviation pioneer
thorny patio
Jupiter was renamed Langely
strong plank
Then US carriers were named for the revolutionary war
desert agate
USS Bataan being escorted by RAN destroyer HMAS Bataan off Korea
strong plank
thorny patio
Awwwww Bataan looks so cute!
strong plank
desert agate
the Australian ship being named in honour of the American battle of Bataan, to return the favour of the Americans naming one of their cruisers USS Canberra
thorny patio
Even as a real ship she just exudes smol
eternal veldt
Smh, they should have made another USS Alliance
strong plank
Enterprise, Hornet, Wasp
eternal veldt
I'm sure it wouldn't commit friendly fire /s
strong plank
They’re named for some of the navy’s first ships
desert agate
i kind of hope that one of the hunters is named HMAS Bataan again after the Americans named one of the LCS' Canberra
thorny patio
Was their ever a "concord"?
junior trench
so not nuked
she was closer to the detonation than some of the target ships due to the air dropped test being off target
grave ravine
Ranger, Enterprise, Wasp, Hornet etc were famous ships
strong plank
USS concord was an Omaha-class cruiser
thorny patio
Feels like the city of Lexington gets all the noteriety
eternal veldt
she was closer to the detonation than some of the target ships due to the air dr...
I recall that she had to be sandblasted, that's why I mentioned about the "nuked" part
grave ravine
As were Boxer, Bonhomme Richard, Intrepid, and Kearsarge from the Essex class
strong plank
Essex was named after the famous ship from the Barbary wars and 1812
grave ravine
Feels like the city of Lexington gets all the noteriety
Something something shot heard around the world
thorny patio
I just thought of something... Mostly as a joke.
Name a British ship "Normandy"
It works two ways:
Named after the Normandy landings OR
named after the norman conquerors
Britain: hey France, remember that time when we were kids and I OWNED YOU
eternal veldt
There is a USS Normandy
grave ravine
Funniest thing is they actually gave Belleau Wood to France later on
eternal veldt
As for Normans...I don't think there is an HMS Hastings
thorny patio
Where's my HMS Cromwell
eternal veldt
Rejected by King George V
subtle prawn
There's a tank named after him
thorny patio
Oh! Another one... Mortimer
remote monolith
deep apex
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Belleau_Wood_(CVL-24)
Belleau Wood...
Those who know
spring briar
Britain: hey France, remember that time when we were kids and I OWNED YOU
The Normans were literally half french wdym
It’s the other way around
autumn sorrel
It’s the other way around
French name ship “Normadie”: “Hey Brit, remember William the Conqueror?” 
spring briar
Exactly
autumn sorrel
Man, it must be nice to have proper name
Vietnamese Navy name ship by number
Only exception are the Kilos and Gepards
solid mango
I cant with these goobers 
manic latch
@tough quail Turbojet car KHADI-9 from the Kharkov automobile and highway Institute, 1978
manic latch
<@84008086733324288> Turbojet car KHADI-9 from the Kharkov automobile and highwa...
When Soyuz says Parliament is not at the building
fierce sparrow
shrewd pecan
You ever just?
dusty kraken
the samsung space chopper
subtle prawn
spring briar
thorn trail
what ship is this?
grave ravine
TBF the not Albany conversions look a bit less goofy
tribal mortar
Fellow Slavaboo??
manic latch
thorny patio
how effective were germanys actual DDs? i know their subs were oogabooga scary, but what about their destroyers?
manic latch
Soyuzaboo to be more exact
subtle prawn
how effective were germanys actual DDs? i know their subs were oogabooga scary, ...
Their “torpedo boats” made better DDs than their actual DDs
thorny patio
and then im reminded of the disaster at Narvik
if im remembering correctly, they lost alot of dds there, right?
subtle prawn
A good amount at least
thorny patio
enough that the KMS decided to stop naming the new ones afterwards XD
just gave them numbers
subtle prawn
They stopped naming them after Z22 which commissioned just after the start of the war
And the only entered service starting in late 1940
thorny patio
fun fact: the Angry Moustache Man from Austria was against naming ships "Deutschland" out of a fear that if they sank, it would hurt morale
simply put: dont name ur ships after THE LITERAL NAME OF YOUR COUNTRY XD
at least not your warships
be like japan... name ur ships after your nations geography... seriously, that concept just sounds so beautiful...
imagine a USS Niagra or Yosemite
wait, what was the namesake for the US Helena again?
ah, named after a city in montana
WOAH, so the US navy names their Ammunition ships (AE) after VOLCANOES. okay thats cool XD
grave ravine
wait, what was the namesake for the US Helena again?
Capital of Montana
grave ravine
if im remembering correctly, they lost alot of dds there, right?
10 IIRC
German DDs were not great for their size, and it was compounded by the KMS being generally not great
There is an article on Navweaps pinned in this channel about German shipbuilding post ww1
subtle prawn
thorny patio
okay, so ill probably read that article while i sit around watching cameras at work
warm finch
how effective were germanys actual DDs? i know their subs were oogabooga scary, ...
From my limited understanding they weren´t really suited for blue water operations.
remote monolith
how effective were germanys actual DDs? i know their subs were oogabooga scary, ...
The vast majority were plagued with mechanical problema and couldn't operate in the Atlantic, with a sizable chunk ending up as scraps before any major overhaul can be given to them
tribal mortar
Alright WeeGee degens
manic latch
Alright WeeGee degens
Yup Kursk is finally here
subtle prawn
manic latch
tribal mortar
Cowabunga
manic latch
Iowa-class battleship USS New Jersey (BB-62) seen through the periscope of Los Angeles Flight I-class nuclear-powered attack submarine USS La Jolla (SSN-701).
tough quail
HOLY FUCK ITS A KIROV SHOOT IT
warm finch
HOLY FUCK ITS A KIROV SHOOT IT
Fletcher trying to figure out where the Japanese are at Coral sea off of incorrect sea plane reports:
manic latch
Me finding Tato
spring briar
Why Tato
tough quail
wao
spring briar
I still prefer Rafale
warm finch
Almost like you´re French eh?
tough quail
it's cool and based
grave ravine
Yeah I'd agree that Rafale is probably the best looking 4th gen
shrewd pecan
Me finding Tato
one step ahead of you
warm finch
It´s basically a L-39 with the wings of an F-18 and intakes of a Rafale. So yeah, I get it.
warm finch
The Gulf War is a textbook definition of "Fuck around and find out" and I can´t get over it.
supple sandal
People really believe what the pig have to says in his video about the T-34 huh
subtle prawn
Wait until you find out what he said about the T-14 Armata…
supple sandal
The damn thing isn't built to last, that is intentional
People were talking about Tiger and how much resources it take
By comparison you could have 15 T-34-85 for one Tiger
But then this guy showed up and said "but muh reliability issues, go watch laserpig video"
My dude, the Soviets built more tanks in 2 years than the Germans ever have counting from before the war
Reliability is not a problem when you can just fix the damn thing in 15 minutes or get another tank
warm finch
People really believe what the pig have to says in his video about the T-34 huh
There´s a very well researched reddit post that corrects the whole video. The guy seems to not be the kind to argue with the average Sovietaboo and thus brands any mention of it from LazerPig as a strawman but that´s really the only sort of problem with it.
I think it comes up if you search "Is lazerpig wrong about the T-34 reddit"
manic latch
There´s a very well researched reddit post that corrects the whole video. The gu...
Meanwhile Pig
What's your source?
Pig: I was drunk
warm finch
I admittedly have a hard time playing devils advocate when it comes to his sources, but I have equal doubt for Red Effects and Cone on that matter.
warm finch
He dumb, it is what it is
Dismissing it as that takes away from the perceived problem of him allegedly brainwashing the masses.
finite gulch
If it wasnt the pig it would be another bad histuber
warm finch
He also took it down
He himself says it isn´t a good look but that he didn´t do it.
warm finch
Then again neither can he
finite gulch
But the cheiftain says it wasnt anything on his end nor youtubes end
And i believe the chieftain over lazerpig
warm finch
Who couldve taken it down apart from pig, nick or youtube
I think Nicholas has moderators, but the thing is we don´t know why any of them would do it
finite gulch
Mods can delete comments not confined to live streaming?
Also hed still have a notification
warm finch
I don´t really know since Iam not a succesful youtube channel.
finite gulch
frozen kestrel
Fun Fact (That some of you guys probably already know): The Illustrious-class had Corsairs and Avengers at one point during the war
subtle prawn
eternal veldt
A rare photograph showing two of the three Yorktown class carriers USS Yorktown (CV-5) and USS Enterprise (CV-6) at the Norfolk Navy Yard in Portsmouth, VA on November 30, 1938. View looking North East.
Both carriers left for the West Coast the following April after participating in Fleet Problem XX in February.
Pier Number 5 is under construction.
thorn trail
Anyone can show me a US design for a BB that went with the Nelson arrangement of guns all forward?
subtle prawn
https://www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/North-Carolina-Preliminary-Scheme-A-1934-35-727354078
https://www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/North-Carolina-Preliminary-Scheme-D-1934-35-733904763
https://www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/North-Carolina-Preliminary-Scheme-H-1934-35-734363743
Speaking of NC preliminaries, I'm for some reason fascinated by the design where all of main armament is on the aft
manic latch
Fun Fact (That some of you guys probably already know): The Illustrious-class ha...
Fun fact. That most people here likely dont know
Molotov cruiser once tested Spitfire from her catapult
frozen kestrel
Nice
thorn trail
https://www.deviantart.com/tzoli/art/North-Carolina-Preliminary-Scheme-A-1934-35...
why does the last one look wide af
also they are all 16in right?
thorn trail
are there any other details for them?
like armor thickness and displacement
oh wait it is in the link
nvm
manic latch
why does the last one look *wide* af
Machinery, armor, tds change sizes
thorn trail
How about IJN Nelson-like designs?
do only one I know is the Izumo from WoWs
but is there any other?
manic latch
How about IJN Nelson-like designs?
Easily more than 20
Kongo replacement prelims, other types of BB designs, Yamato layout options
deep apex
I honestly prefer the look of US aircraft more.
The Rafale always just looked so goofy to me
The Typhoon just looked wack when I first saw it.
The Sukhoi aircraft look so weird when viewed from above.
Even some American aircraft I don't like. The rear of the F14 for example. The engines don't look like they match the body of the aircraft. The engines just look too small.
Honestly the F15 is my all time favorite jet fighter. The view from above is just perfect. The rear looks amazing and the engines with their size match the rest of the aircraft. No weird fang or whatever at the sides. I always find them absolutely h i d e o u s.
And the wings! They match the aircraft so well.
deep apex
Honestly I've found most delta wing aircraft completely a t r o t i o u s
manic latch
The rear is flat then suddenly 2 circles for engines
deep apex
The rear is flat then suddenly 2 circles for engines
AND THEY'RE SO SMALL LIKE WTF
manic latch
Why is there so much space between the engines AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH
Missile storage
cinder escarp
Why is there so much space between the engines AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH
It's a legacy of F-111B
The answer is unironically bombs
manic latch
Meanwhile Mig-31 literally kissing
cinder escarp
Despite being a purebred fighter, there were still bomb carriage requirements - this lead to the famous engine tunnel on the F-14.
humble mulch
Just simple and easy to grasp
deep apex
I have an emote for my reaction to this
cinder escarp
If not for the bomb requirements, F-14 probably would have looked like a fatter, swing-wing F-15
cinder escarp
tough quail
If not for the bomb requirements, F-14 probably would have looked like a fatter,...
so we won out
manic latch
Tu-22M also has bomb racks. Looks fucking cursed
Not on the swinging parts of course. That was only on like Typhoon
cinder escarp
Nothing will ever be as cursed as the Su-17/20/22
What if we took your stovepipe delta jet, and kludged on swing wings?
Also, there's more fences on the wing than in cold war germany
manic latch
As God intended
Tfw Soviets actually designed Naval Me-262, (Tu-509)
