history

[lunar sand]

So Midway America lost Yorktown, in exchange Japan lost Akagi, Kaga, Hiryuu, and Souryuu

Then in Santa Cruz the US also lost Hornet to the Crane Sisters?

Which means US had what... Essex, Bunker Hill, and Enty for fleet carriers until 43?

[thorn trail]

[eternal veldt]

all for 4 x 2 14" guns

[lunar sand]

Is that why the Hornet being sunk kinda slowed things down for a bit

[eternal veldt]

After Santa Cruz, Enterprise was the only operational carrier until ~August 1943

[maiden citrus]

even very heavily armored things like g3 have very small immune zone vs lexington guns, but lexington in return is vulnerable to essentially anything above cruiser caliber (which was not uncommon for many parts of bc protection, buuuut for lexington it was not 'many parts' it was 'basically all parts')

[eternal veldt]

Saratoga is busy being Sara Maru and is sitting at a drydock repairing, after she got mauled by I-26 back in 1942

[thorn trail]

wait can I have a comparison of this to the uh Iowa's

[eternal veldt]

All other Pacific Carriers at this point were under the sea

Which is why the US requested HMS Victorious to be loaned to the US for some time

[thorn trail]

https://tenor.com/view/akairo-azur-lane-cry-lying-down-gif-17695989

[lunar sand]

So was Hornet being lost a fault of anyone particularly or was it just something that kinda happened?

Like you can't point to any particular avoidable factor and say "this is what condemned the ship"

[thorn trail]

Wait Silver what is that long ship pic that you sent supposed to be?

[eternal veldt]

She was under concentrated attack, and with the Japanese surface force approaching quick, she was abandoned

[eternal veldt]

http://www.rp-one.net/usn_1912_bc/usn_1912_bc.html

[lunar sand]

Shokaku and Zuikaku survived until 44? Jesus...

[eternal veldt]

As for Santa Cruz, I believe the main thing was that

"More AA was needed"

[thorn trail]

WAIT

[lunar sand]

You telling me the 2 carriers couldn't supply enough air cover

[thorn trail]

1250 FT?!?

JFVC

[lunar sand]

[eternal veldt]

Against a determined attacker and still early CAP, yes

[thorn trail]

and only for 8 14in guns at 67k tons displacement

jfc that's long

[eternal veldt]

Eastern Solomons was a good example, the radar detected incoming planes, but wrongly guessed their altitude, and with 40+ planes sharing one radio channel

so CAP failed to shoot any of the attackers down before they reached Enterprise and disabled her

[maiden citrus]

as for how the lexingtons would fair against the amagis, both have essentially newspaper armor (amagi has essentially equal deck over mags, and slightly more armor here and there, but not by much, e.g. sub 10 inch belt, basically same belt slope angle for both too) vs the other one, similar dimensions and similar weight, so whoever landed a decent hit first probably wins, the ships can absolutely stand up to each other because neither can survive each other at... virtually any range

the main differences between the two are lexington's guns are significantly stronger and is 3 knots faster but amagi has one extra twin turret

[thorn trail]

armor seems okay tho?

[maiden citrus]

that's pretty good yeh

[eternal veldt]

rather lacking in the firepower department, though.

[maiden citrus]

for 1912 it's not that bad, but for a ship that size it's supremely under armed and under armored even if the armor for the period is good and the armament is alright

if you can build two ships for the weight of one and each of those two ships can beat it in a fight, you might want to tone it down

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy7TyxnbqjQ

https://twitter.com/NAMELESS_JSDF/status/1669343779780952073

I_NAMELESS_I (@NAMELESS_JSDF)

The Chaffee She Told You Not To Worry About ...

The text reads: ''Equipped with ATM launchers on the side of the turret of the M24 light tank''.

There are two types of experimental vehicles for the combat vehicle-mounted version. One is the M24 light tank provided by the US…

Likes

186

Twitter · Jun 15, 2023, 1:59 PM

[lunar sand]

this one kinda interests me, how good were the Bismarck Class BBs really

they're a ship that is recognized heavily by reputation, but is said reputation warranted or was it really just a lucky circumstance that earned it.

[eternal veldt]

Again, a complicated topic

It's easy to either say she's good or just floating scrap iron

searching "Bismarck" in this channel should yield you many results, some very comprehensive

[thorn trail]

search with from Jaba would probably be better to narrow it down

[spiral cedar]

#history message
Dug it up

Granted this is 2 years old and slightly out of date

So it’s not necessarily reflective of everything I believe now

But should be a decent basis to start from

[twilit anchor]

I don't understand how people think the Bismarck is the best BB ever?

[thorn trail]

propaganda

and plus Bisko's story

people see "1 BB against the entire Royal Navy" as a romantic idea

[twilit anchor]

She got crit by a bi plane

[twilit anchor]

Wasn't it only a handful of CL and BBs?

[thorn trail]

It's the idea that the Royal Navy wanted her hunted down

So like a David vs Goliath moment

[storm echo]

something about the swordfishes having a rather low operational altitude and slow speed that complicated the jobs of the AA gunners aboard busmarck who were trained for much faster and higher aircraft

[twilit anchor]

Apparently the Bismarcks crew was trying to knock them out of the sky via hitting the water and splashing it up

[thorn trail]

I wonder

can you attach anti-ship torpedoes on fighter jets

like more modern day fighters

[twilit anchor]

Like a ww2 torp?

[thorn trail]

yeah

or rather uh

a modern day reimagining of the torp bomber instead of using AShMs

[twilit anchor]

Maybe

I think the torp would get destroyed when hitting the water

[dapper parcel]

Torps are no longer optimized for ASuW anymore

[hot nymph]

Torp subs can carry ICBM's, right?

[thorn trail]

torp subs?

[hot nymph]

torpedo subs

[thorn trail]

there are generally 2 distinctions for subs nowadays, Ballistic Missile Subs and Attack Submarines

[dapper parcel]

There are ASROC, Ikara, Vikhr, etc
MPA also just drop torpedoes from altitude

[hot nymph]

ah i gotchs

[thorn trail]

If you are asking if SLBM subs carry torps, yeah they do carry some

[hot nymph]

im not well versed in history out of early cold war era

[twilit anchor]

Thought Vikhr as an ATGM

[thorn trail]

but that's not its primary role

[hot nymph]

anything before that i am golden in

[dapper parcel]

Vikhr/Vyuga/Vodopad/Veter series of ASROC

[twilit anchor]

Ah

[alpine onyx]

There's Bismarck talk going on again?

gets bingo chart

[hot nymph]

I wonder why the US Navy decided to name all their new Subs after states instead of Aircraft carriers. Im guessing bc those are just reserved for presidents?

[eternal veldt]

It was more than just the crew, technical problems, and weather, all contribute to the failure to stop the swordfish from making their runs.

[twilit anchor]

Didn't the Bismarck blow its own range finder off as well

[eternal veldt]

It would have been very embarrassing too had the magnetic exploders worked, as the swordfish initially made their run on HMS Sheffield, mistaking her as the battleship.

[thorn trail]

Carrier naming is more people and politics nowadays

[eternal veldt]

Bismarck damaged her own radar due to firing on extreme angles, yes, but this is not a problem inherent to Bismarck only.

Radar is finnicky technology, and do badly against shock. Massachusetts and New Jersey also disabled their radar in this manner.

[twilit anchor]

Fair still embarrassing

[alpine onyx]

Not that difficult when the dangerous thing about such a plane is not the age of the plane (and with 1934 being the first flight of a Swordfish, it wasn't as old as you might think) but the torpedo. Just like Prince of Wales was effectively sunk by a plane that was a mere year newer than the Swordfish.

[hot nymph]

Doesn't shock me tbh. Whoever gives the most money i suppose

[twilit anchor]

Bismarck was also hit in a weak spot

[eternal veldt]

Ship's butts are vulnerable.

Not something you can protect against

[hot nymph]

wasn't Hood sunk in a similar way by Bismarck as how Bismarck sank?

[eternal veldt]

No.

[alpine onyx]

There's a good argument to make that Prince of Wales was sunk by a single torpedo

[twilit anchor]

Hood got ammo racked

Super lucky shot by Bismarck tbh

[alpine onyx]

And all the other torpedoes were only speeding up the inevitable

[eternal veldt]

The significance of Ark Royal's torpedo hit is disabling Bismarck long enough for Tovey's battleships to catch up to the ship

[twilit anchor]

She was sunk by Japan right

[eternal veldt]

And although Bismarck retailiated, Rodney shot off her director early onwards

[thorn trail]

just curious but could aircraft have carried long lances?

like would it be possible to integrate long lances into torpedo bombers?

[alpine onyx]

Something, something, naval battles involve luck like there's no tonorrow

[hot nymph]

So Hood go shot unlucky as Bismarck got bombarded? I knew Bismarck was a fortress, butjesus

[twilit anchor]

I don't think so they were super heavy and massive

[solid mango]

[twilit anchor]

Type 90s was the areal torp if I remember correctly

[alpine onyx]

If I had a cookie for every freak shot that happened I'd go fat

[twilit anchor]

Which still was super deadly

[twilit anchor]

Type 95 maybe

[eternal veldt]

The destructive ability of the long lance is not just its warhead alone

[twilit anchor]

It was basically a 93 but smaller being made for subs

[twilit anchor]

Speed range and the lack of foam

[spiral cedar]

Rangefinders are the long bar-like optics seen here (the middle box is the director, the long horizontal bar is the rangefinder, and the mattress thing is the radar). Bismarck knocked out her own forward radar, yes, but the rangefinder was perfectly fine, and her gunnery was perfectly adequate without that forward radar. It’s important to be specific here because knocking one’s own radar offline was very common early war (Massachusetts did it at Casablanca for example), but knocking out your own rangefinder would be quite remarkable.

[eternal veldt]

But rather, its oxygen fuel system which emitted less air bubbles compared to carbon dioxide or general compressed air propulsion

[thorn trail]

okay thought so. Torp bombers under heavy fire carrying long lances would have been a disaster right?

[eternal veldt]

Therefore, the torpedo trail of a long lance is harder to see, and combined with Japanese night battle doctrine, became something very scary to the Allied forces

[hot nymph]

Tbh, I will say this, I am not well versed in Naval history. Army history, yes sadly

[twilit anchor]

Yeah but later models had pure o2 systems

[spiral cedar]

Torpedo bombers can’t carry “long lances” because they’re way too heavy

[twilit anchor]

Other used air to start

[alpine onyx]

If we believe Ryan then New Jersey also achieved that radar suicide

[eternal veldt]

As Tassaforonga would show, a competent admiral at the helm can do some heavy blows to the Allied ships

[alpine onyx]

Also if my memory is correct Texas also knocked out some of her radars during bombardment missions

[spiral cedar]

A Type 93 is about 6000 lbs and an aerial torpedo is about 2000 lbs, for comparison

[twilit anchor]

Size too

630mm

I don't think even the B29 could hold it in its bay

[hot nymph]

its incredible how far they can launch being that weight. so much firepower

[thorn trail]

6000lbs? that's uh

around 3-ish tons?

[twilit anchor]

Type 93 and 95 don't get enough love over looked by the Mk44

[hot nymph]

3 tonns exactly

at least in US customary

[hot nymph]

how far can it launch?

[eternal veldt]

Short is, shock bad for electronics

[twilit anchor]

50miles at low speed 24 at high if I remember correctly?

It was stupid far

[hot nymph]

that's insane

[spiral cedar]

Type 93

[hot nymph]

cant image the firepower it had had under it

[twilit anchor]

But to be fair japanese DD weren't meant to be seen just launch torps into enemy fleets

[hot nymph]

or let alone the cost of one of those

[thorn trail]

was that the farthest torp made in ww2?

[twilit anchor]

I think the mrk 44 had a longer ranger

[spiral cedar]

I will note that Hara, Japan’s only surviving DD captain and a torpedo expert, considered torpedo launches from more than about 3-5km to be a waste

[twilit anchor]

That's what 4ish miles?

[spiral cedar]

1.6 km = 1 mi

[alpine onyx]

Which does match the hit rates of Japanese torpedoes

Java Sea was the Japanese firing over 100 torpedoes for what, three hits?

[hot nymph]

Idk if any of you heard about this, but wasn't there a guy in Florida who found an abandoned nuclear torpedo and powered his house with it? Pretty sure he got arrested because of it too, lol

[twilit anchor]

To be fair ww2 torps sucked

[eternal veldt]

92 for 1, IIRC

[twilit anchor]

A large wave can knock them out

[eternal veldt]

Poor Kortanaer blown apart from a hit

[hot nymph]

true, they couldn't do much, but at least they did a shitton of damage when they were on target

[spiral cedar]

During the action the IJN ships executed 38 separate launches of a probable 164 Type 93 torpedoes, scoring 3 hits which sank the RNN CL De Ruyter, CL Java and DD Kortenaer. This is a probable hit rate of 1.8%, dismal for such a massive expenditure.

[twilit anchor]

Mogami on her way to have one of the highest torp kills but on her own ships

[eternal veldt]

And then there's Mogami

[alpine onyx]

So a dozen destroyers emptying all they have for one hit

[eternal veldt]

Forgot how many hits on Shinshu Maru

[alpine onyx]

Must've been worth it

[thorn trail]

wait

where did Mogami hit friendlies?

[eternal veldt]

Java Sea

Sunda Strait specifically if I recall

[dapper parcel]

Sunda Strait

[twilit anchor]

It's like 3rd or 2nd best torp Salvo ever but also one of the worst naval friendly fire too

[eternal veldt]

"friendly"

Get fucked IJA

[twilit anchor]

Lol true

Mogami probably did it on purpose

[spiral cedar]

6 torpedoes, 5 kills

[eternal veldt]

2 rams, 2 kills

[spiral cedar]

I believe it was initially blamed on Houston, then on Fubuki

[twilit anchor]

Leave poor fubuki alone IJA

[eternal veldt]

Only the Mark 14

And once that is fixed, the Japanese merchant fleet dies

[twilit anchor]

16 launched 0 det

[eternal veldt]

2,000,000 tons of shipping alone in 1944

[twilit anchor]

Kinda sad I wish we still had Japanese ships alive

[thorn trail]

Only York and Hammy were killed by the same torpedo right?

[eternal veldt]

No, if by same salvo

I-19's the most incredible one

6 torpedoes, 3 hits on wasp, which sunk

The remaining torpedoes continued, finding another task force

[twilit anchor]

Type 95 were really good too

[eternal veldt]

North Carolina ate one, was relatively fine

[spiral cedar]

Three torpedoes, not one torpedo. Two to York and one to Hamm

[eternal veldt]

O'Brien ate another one, survived for a few weeks

Then suddenly died from the hull stress

[thorn trail]

AH

[eternal veldt]

Think the one that hit O'Brien very narrowly missed Helena by her stern

No bulli her

[twilit anchor]

Didn't Helena get super lucky multiple times

[dapper parcel]

That launch at 0127

[eternal veldt]

Kinda? Helena was a victim already at Pearl

[twilit anchor]

Oh yeah

[eternal veldt]

Then was also at Cape Esperance and Guadalcanal

[wintry moat]

When did Helena sink?

[eternal veldt]

1943, Kula Gulf

[wintry moat]

I know she had a bad magazine hit

[eternal veldt]

She ran out of flashless powder, so was targetted

The deadly part is that two of the hits were right next to each other

[thorn trail]

was there a ww2 navy that rarely used flashless powder?

[eternal veldt]

Which meant her structure just instantly failed

[twilit anchor]

Probably japan

[wintry moat]

Didn’t her magazine explode?

[thorn trail]

was there any disadvantages of using flashless powder vs non-flashless ones?

[wintry moat]

Flash as in the guns themselves don’t spark and emit fire when fired or as in less likely to explode?

[spiral cedar]

No, that was Juneau

[wintry moat]

Oh

the Atlanta class right?

[eternal veldt]

Yes

Helena observed her 5" turrets thrown skyhigh

And therefore presumed no survivors

[twilit anchor]

Ayanami on her way to get a direct hit by a BB and not sink and needing to be scuttled

[eternal veldt]

(there were survivors)

[twilit anchor]

Like legit?

[dapper parcel]

Flashless as in not emmiting bright muzzle report upon firing

Earlier flashless powders are usually not exactly smokeless, and vice versa

[wintry moat]

The observer on Helena saw his counterpart get flung off the ship

[spiral cedar]

The Juneau was, as I recall, off our starboard quarter. I just happened to be standing outside, getting some air. I was looking at her and saw her blow up. I didn’t see the torpedo track, but she just went up like you see pictures of an atomic bomb explosion. I started to step into the hatch that led into the control station because I knew crap would be coming our way, and I was blown right against the bulkhead by the shock wave, the concussion. I didn’t get hit by anything. Nothing hit the ship either, but a 5-inch mount from the Juneau sailed over and hit the water on the far side of us.

From Helena’s crew

[twilit anchor]

What hit her that hard to cause that

[wintry moat]

the Death of Juneau gave a lot of people aboard Helena Insta Shell Shock

[wintry moat]

Torp irrc

slipped Under San Fran

[twilit anchor]

Ah makes sense then

[wintry moat]

So wasn’t spotted

[spiral cedar]

A torpedo hit in an area likely compromised by a previous torpedo hit, likely allowing blast from the torpedo explosion to reach into the magazines directly

[wintry moat]

And she firecrackered

didn’t Helena’s sinking go unnoticed for a time

[twilit anchor]

Didn't San Fran get a above water line hit by a torp

[thorn trail]

Juneau irl: dies to torpedo hits
Juneau in AL pvp: Pls die to torpedoes for us

[wintry moat]

like no one actually saw her slip beneath the waves

[spiral cedar]

0253 No more targets Available
0254 Speed now 28 knots. Course 290
0255 HELENA is Dropping Back
0308 Heavy Underwater explosion Felt
0313 Two of our Tin "Cans" are being sent into the harbor to look for ships.

Can’t locate the HELENA

0319 Surface contact on screen off port Bow at 5000 Yards.

0323 Bow of a ship has been s ighted, sticking straight up out of the water. It May be the HELENA.
0324 Standby to illuminate with searchlights, to look for the HELENA.
0326 HONOLULU is illuminating with searchlights now.
0327 Fifteen miles from N. Georgia Island.
0330 Searchlights have picked up object in water and report states "Sorry to report object sighted is CL-50 HELENA
0331 Standby for 28 knots
0332 RADFORD is investigating what is believed to be the wreck of the HELENA.
0333 It is HELENA, she is believed to have been sunk by torpedoes
0334 No survivors picked up yet HELENA is thought to have sunk at 0308, when last large underwater explosion was felt.```

[wintry moat]

She fought to the end

one helluva ship

[spiral cedar]

Can’t locate the HELENA

[twilit anchor]

Thats sad ngl

[wintry moat]

Indeed

the panic they must’ve felt

the just existential dread

knowing she might be gone

fucking hell

[twilit anchor]

Ayanami had a similar fate

She got separated due to poor radios

By time her fleet realized it was too late

It's why she doesn't like be alone in the game

[eternal veldt]

it could be much worse

Invincible

[wintry moat]

old Invincible

[eternal veldt]

Entire Grand Fleet was cheering at what they thought was a sunk German ship

[wintry moat]

brought down the newest ship by herself

[wintry moat]

Ah

Damn

[eternal veldt]

then the bow and stern stuck out with the letters invincible written on it

[wintry moat]

fuck

man

[twilit anchor]

Oooof

[eternal veldt]

not a good feeling

[wintry moat]

Why the hell can’t we get the WW1 ships

give me my Iron Duke

[twilit anchor]

Mikasa

[wintry moat]

I want the WW1 Aimbot

[twilit anchor]

Fuso

[wintry moat]

I mean more of them ya know

[alpine onyx]

Where be Schlesien

[wintry moat]

ships like Derfflinger

or Vonn der Tann

[twilit anchor]

TenGo was a sad mission tbh

[wintry moat]

The Horde of aircraft

[twilit anchor]

She was sent to be sunk

[eternal veldt]

We're pretty much scraping the bottom of the barrel for Germans already, so

[wintry moat]

it’s painfully ironic that Yorktown would be the one to finish Yammy off

[eternal veldt]

Derfflinger and the likes are a a matter of time

[alpine onyx]

Schle-si-en

[eternal veldt]

We already have best girl Seydlitz

[wintry moat]

I really love The Derfflinger

[eternal veldt]

ship that will not die

[wintry moat]

Kinda wish Britain kept her as a war museum

took so many hits and made it home

[eternal veldt]

Won't happen, the crew scuttled her at Scapa Flow

[alpine onyx]

Germans didn't like that idea and sank her instead

[wintry moat]

Shame

[twilit anchor]

Scrapping of the enterprise makes me so mad

[wintry moat]

but I can understand it

[eternal veldt]

and if she survived, she'd likely be turned into a floating target anyway

[wintry moat]

ik

[eternal veldt]

see: Ostfriesland, Baden

[wintry moat]

whatever happened to Bayern

[alpine onyx]

Crews of the ships are at times not as favorable towards the ship becoming a museum ship as we are today

[eternal veldt]

scuttled, naturally

[wintry moat]

Example, Enty

[alpine onyx]

There were parts of Enterprise's crew that hated the idea of her becoming a museum

[twilit anchor]

Nagato was the US ship after the war

She didn't have a crew

[eternal veldt]

Even now, Museum ships come with controversy

[wintry moat]

I can understand the reasoning

[eternal veldt]

Colbert was parked at a terrible spot, so people chanted for her to be disposed of

[alpine onyx]

And disposed of she was, sadly

[eternal veldt]

Barry's another one

[wintry moat]

Seeing people mistreat your ship, especially when your war buddy may have died there

[eternal veldt]

oops, gotta build a bridge

[wintry moat]

Still a damned shame

[alpine onyx]

Also a lot of museum ships simply rust away

[twilit anchor]

I feel like If USA got to keep any IJN ship as a museum ship I'd get vandalized alot

[eternal veldt]

I think the last GUPPY sub is now on the way to being sunk

because no more funds

[alpine onyx]

Even with funds

When I visited HMS Victory was barely a hull

[eternal veldt]

Right, she's gone

[wintry moat]

At the very least allow them to be artificial reefs

[eternal veldt]

USS Clamagore

[twilit anchor]

I hope i get to see Mikasa before the deem it a waste

[wintry moat]

same

Although

[alpine onyx]

Mikasa has decent chances to last

Being in concrete

[wintry moat]

Mikasa is a pride symbol for Japan as well

[twilit anchor]

So was the yamato and you Saw what they did to her

[wintry moat]

Being flagship to beat a European power

[eternal veldt]

Mikasa being encased in concrete helps, though one can't help but wonder if the situation that happens to Victory will happen to her

i.e. the ship collapsing under her own weight

[wintry moat]

Mikasa wasn’t fighting the Allies either

[twilit anchor]

Yamato didn't need to die

[eternal veldt]

There's a reason why Mikasa is left in an absolute shit condition

[wintry moat]

or making last ditch runs for the emperor

[eternal veldt]

turned into an aquarium and dance hall at one point

The Soviets wanted her gone

Nimitz struggled to kept her there

It wasn't until later that she finally got encased in concrete and got the museum ship treatment

[twilit anchor]

I mean Japan barely has the funds to keep their current navy

[wintry moat]

Damn

[twilit anchor]

I doubt they'll be able to keep a 1800s BB safe

[alpine onyx]

I think a full enclosure in concrete is better than just resting on the keel with some planless supports as it was done with Victory

[wintry moat]

after all the shit Mikasa’s survived

[alpine onyx]

Just a loss of bouyancy forces, but at least a very even distribution of weight

[wintry moat]

Why does our little ball of dirt have to be covered in 90’ percent of liquid hate

[eternal veldt]

Mikasa was also basically a leaky faucet before then

the Kanto Earthquake broke her and she started leaking

[wintry moat]

so, Texas

pre restoration

[twilit anchor]

Poor girl

[eternal veldt]

Significantly shittier condition

[alpine onyx]

Texas is lucky

[eternal veldt]

Still couldn't find the digital version of this photo

[alpine onyx]

She got the publicity to get the financial aid needed

[eternal veldt]

But yea, don't ask about Mikasa's past

[alpine onyx]

Meanwhile there are rows of museum ships that get nothing, and that no one gives a rat's butt about

[eternal veldt]

Especially not the time she blew herself up because some of the crew had an illegal booze party in her magazines

[wintry moat]

didn’t she also have Two magazines explode

[wintry moat]

What?

That’s horrifying and also mildly funny

Party so hard you accidently blow up your ship

[eternal veldt]

It was reported that some members of the crew had decided to hold a party in the powder magazine. In order to remove the poisonous part of some methyl alcohol (used for flares) they had stolen, they set light to it in the corridor to the powder magazine and there was a spillage that led to the explosion. The story was told to a medical orderly by a heavily injured member of the crew immediately before he died. The medical orderly initially regarded this confession as confidential and did not immediately report it to his superior. The account was therefore not considered by the investigation committee but emerged later.

[wintry moat]

Bruh

how was Mikasa not broken by that

that is a sentence of all time right there

Fuck

[twilit anchor]

Ships survived ammo racks before

[wintry moat]

Fair

but still

You get stuff like Gnies

Or Hood

[twilit anchor]

Just you hear the ships that uh didn't very well

[eternal veldt]

Orleck was so bad to the point that she was reported scrapped in 2020

Fortunately survived

[twilit anchor]

Mutsu and Arizona being well know

[wintry moat]

Poor Mutsu

[eternal veldt]

Sullivans is now the worrying one

[wintry moat]

she was the 20s equivalent of crowd funded

just to explode

in harbor

[eternal veldt]

listed what, twice now?

[wintry moat]

it’s why Japan was able to keep Mutsu

[spiral cedar]

So like most crowdfunded projects, then

[wintry moat]

Lol

[eternal veldt]

You want humiliation

[alpine onyx]

Gneisenau's state post detonation was not as catastrophic, she generated a blowout panel over her bow and forward deck so it didn't crack her in half

[eternal veldt]

try the turkish

fund your BBs to be built by Britain

[wintry moat]

what they do?

[eternal veldt]

only for them to be "possessed"

[wintry moat]

oof

[eternal veldt]

without refunding

[wintry moat]

yoink

[eternal veldt]

and that's how you got HMS Agincourt and HMS Erin

[wintry moat]

What ya gonna do FIGHT ME?

[eternal veldt]

much to turkish outrage

[wintry moat]

I got your Battleship nerd

[thorn trail]

7 turrets

[eternal veldt]

then Germans played the right card and gave Turkey Goeben

[wintry moat]

which then survived until the seventies

love the fact she was apart of NATO

[alpine onyx]

Poor Yavuz

[eternal veldt]

Turkey originally wanted to donate Yavuz to West Germany for preservation, but no money

[thorn trail]

I still don't get why they had to have 7 turrets

[eternal veldt]

angry

[wintry moat]

More fun

took the American approach

it’s like a Wyoming

Also

I stumbled across some images of Hood’s interior

They are pretty damned blurry

Most likely an issue with the site itself

[twilit anchor]

Why is Yukikaze considered lucky?

[spiral cedar]

Agincourt is just in general a rabbit hole of terrible design decisions

[wintry moat]

I think cuz she was either a sole survivor a bunch of times or she was the only ship not to be damaged

[eternal veldt]

Keep in mind the ship was originally intended for Brazil, where there is an arms race going on

With Chile and Argentina getting their own dreadnoughts, the answer is to get a ship with supreme firepower above all

[thorn trail]

yeah but why 7

what was the reasoning for that many turrets

[wintry moat]

cuz more guns more chance of hitting

[eternal veldt]

triple turrets are not a thing back then

[twilit anchor]

More guns equal better

[spiral cedar]

Most of her barbettes below the main armor deck are outright unarmored, meaning even fragments can reach the magazines unimpeded

[eternal veldt]

not necessarily

[thorn trail]

wait

hold on

[eternal veldt]

when you have too many guns, it messes with observing the fall of shot and directing gunfire

[alpine onyx]

There's a limit to how many guns you can effectively use

[thorn trail]

the barbettes weren't armored for a huge part of it?

what the fuck

[spiral cedar]

It’s such a fucked design

[eternal veldt]

the hull is also extremely stressed

[wintry moat]

It’s got 14 12 inch guns

I’m not super surprised

[twilit anchor]

Fubuki class still best looking DD

[eternal veldt]

Hence why, say for Italy, when you go up to beyond 12 barrels and the like

the better solution is to upcaliber the gun instead

cough Venezia cough

[wintry moat]

I love the drach video about the last ride of HHF

[spiral cedar]

Even above the main armor deck, the barbettes were only 2-3” thick up to the weather deck

[thorn trail]

the more I look into how Brazil designed their BBs, the more I think they were crazy

[wintry moat]

Agincourt “only” has 3 turrets remaining functional

[spiral cedar]

Agincourt went to Jutland still carrying some 1890s shells aboard

[wintry moat]

What

Well

It’s not the worst thing going on at Jutland

all things considered

[twilit anchor]

That's sad

[thorn trail]

looking at Agincourt's armor scheme

the armor scheme is super cursed

armor as thin as BCs but can't go as fast

[spiral cedar]

Also yuuge and poorly arranged compartments

Lemme copy paste a 1918 Wyoming vs Agincourt analysis I wrote up a while back

In 1918…well, Tony DiGiulian believes Agincourt never received the new “Greenboy” shells, since she seems to have been low priority for new equipment and had been issued some shells from the 1890s(!). Most of her outfit will probably be pre-Jutland design shells, then, which is rather an unfavorable state of affairs given the soft caps and non-delay fuzes—though she should mostly have 4crh shells at least, not the old 2crh, as many of those were expended at Jutland. If, for whatever reason, we decide to change history and give Agincourt Greenboy shells, that does give her a significant upgrade, though the original 1918 12” Greenboy had rather uninspiring performance. If we assume mostly 4crh pre-Greenboy shells, which seems most probable, then most shells should be reliable at 10-15 deg but unreliable at 15-20. These shells also struggled significantly at penetrating heavy armor.

For Wyoming, there seems to have been an effort to replace the old pre-1916 shells with the Midvale-only 12” AP Mark 15 Mod 6 (the only 12” AP manufactured for the USN after early 1916 until the Alaska class large cruisers), which did not have the issues with 10 deg obliquity that the Bethlehem shells had (the 14” would not get up to this new standard fleetwide for all manufacturers until the early 1920s, but the 8” and 12” AP got there earlier). These shells could reliably penetrate thick armor at up to 15 deg obliquity fit-to-burst, though they still had soft caps and thus weren’t reliable at 15-20 deg. However they were fairly good at penetrating thick armor with minimal shell damage against most armor plates of the period (the sole contemporary exceptions being Austro-Hungarian armor and Midvale Non-Cemented armor). The fact that the shells have an extra 175 fps of muzzle velocity over Agincourt also helps. They still have non-delay fuzes, giving no advantage over the British pre-Jutland shells in that regard. Explosive D does carry a bit less “oompf” than Lyddite, so the shells will probably inflict slightly less damage than the British shells, though arguably it’s most important to penetrate in the first place.

In terms of armor, Wyoming is generally more heavily armored, with 11” over most of the main belt and 9”-11” over the upper belt. Agincourt by comparison has a 9” main belt and 6” upper belt. Likewise the protection for the armament favors Wyoming—while turret faces are 12” in both cases, the Wyoming faces are inclined a more appropriate ~45 deg backward compared to (as best as I can estimate from historical photos) ~15 deg backward for Agincourt, which means that for a typical 10-15 deg angle of fall for the period the turret faces are not particularly well protected. Barbette armor will only rarely be directly hit belowdeck (since the shells on both sides will be non-delay, so mainly at risk of duds), though the superfiring barbettes are more exposed. In that regard Wyoming’s 11” exposed barbettes and 10”-4.5” barbettes behind the casemate, upper, and main belts beat out Agincourt’s 9” exposed barbettes and 2-3” barbettes below the forecastle deck (rather alarming, in my opinion), with most barbettes being entirely unarmored below the main deck(!), leaving them potentially vulnerable to fragments from main belt penetrations.

Agincourt was late to the party regarding Royal Navy fire control, but by 1918 she has most of the needed equipment (including a Dreyer table and director). Wyoming has the Ford Mark I rangekeeper since 1916, and received another in early 1918 (backup or improved model?). Thus the two ships should be roughly on par with fire control (in theory the Ford Mark I should be superior to the Dreyer, but at this stage the Dreyer’s associated systems in the overall fire control process were more developed, and the QC issues with some of the early Fords were not yet resolved, so I believe these limiting factors nullify any theoretical advantages in the fire control system). Wyoming has FTP in train, though whether she has it in elevation (implementation starting 1917) I’m not certain of. Agincourt I assume has FTP for both, though whether this was installed on the least-favored deadnought in the Grand Fleet I have no information on.

By 1918 most of the upgraded flash protection and handling practices in the Royal Navy should be implemented, and most older cordite should be swapped out—clearly the fact that magazine explosions still occurred means there were some lapses, but I can only assume Agincourt was probably not a bomb by 1918. Wyoming benefits from the typical USN devotion to ordnance safety and thus has inherently safer powder and shells. Thus I will assume that neither side is likely to explode by flash-fires from turret or barbette penetrations, though Agincourt is still slightly more at risk of this. Direct magazine pens are unlikely for both ships due to the lack of delay fuzes. Thus neither ship is likely to outright destroy its rival with a few hits, relying on the cumulative effect of many shells gradually destroying the enemy’s watertight integrity and firepower. While Agincourt has a turret over Wyoming, Agincourt’s turrets are more likely to be lost when a turret or barbette hit occurs, and she is less likely to penetrate heavy armor. Agincourt also has unusually poor subdivision due to her Brazilian Navy origins, which makes progressive flooding even more serious. Overall I suspect Wyoming will have an advantage over Agincourt, primarily due to superiority in the armor-shell balance.

[thorn trail]

what's crh mean again

in RN shell terminology

[spiral cedar]

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-094.php

[thorn trail]

ah caliber radius head

got it

[eternal veldt]

Funnily enough, the Gin Palace is kinda popular around modellers

[maiden citrus]

[eternal veldt]

just because being a "turret farm"

[twilit anchor]

Idk any of these ships

[thorn trail]

was there more turrets in a ship planned?

[eternal veldt]

Agincourt takes the cake for most on a battleship

otherwise, Colbert is the other one I can think of in terms of how many primary armament turrets on board

[thorn trail]

the ironclad?

what about dreadnoughts?

[eternal veldt]

the cruiser of post WW2

[spiral cedar]

Wyoming

[eternal veldt]

None I can think of for dreadnoughts, but a couple on top of my head that outbarrel Agincourt

[thorn trail]

oh right Wyoming had 6 barrels

[twilit anchor]

Cute girl

[thorn trail]

Just remembered because I was stuck on her for a while in WoWs

[eternal veldt]

including the ridiculous original Tillman IV

4 x sextuple turrets, why the fuck not

[thorn trail]

iirc they were 16in guns right?

[eternal veldt]

yes

[thorn trail]

how the fuck are you gonna fit 6 guns in a turret

[eternal veldt]

Then they got sensible and upgraded it to a much more reasonable 5 x triple 457 instead

[thorn trail]

unless the ship was like wider than Yamato

wait

@eternal veldt how would they have fit 6 16in in a turret if the BB was not that much larger beam-wise than Iowa

[eternal veldt]

You don't

Or group them so tightly that it doesnt work without delaying coils

[maiden citrus]

vertically is my thought

[twilit anchor]

4 mount had a shit tons of problems 6 would just not work

[eternal veldt]

you called?

[maiden citrus]

yis

[thorn trail]

what the fuck

is this

[maiden citrus]

like that but triples

that's how I imagine it

[eternal veldt]

done

[maiden citrus]

[eternal veldt]

just turret design shenanigans

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/RyszardJonski/status/1669933170974703617

Junsupreme (@RyszardJonski)

New visualization of the Hyundai Rotem K3 tank.
130 mm gun, unmanned turret, KAPS top attack active protection system and RCWS, composite tracks. Capsule for a crew of three.
Source:https://t.co/62NHlc0GVQ

Likes

474

Twitter · Jun 17, 2023, 5:01 AM

[strong plank]

?

[spring briar]

[spring briar]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/493861626525515777/1116802469985534062/image0.gif

[zealous vine]

👍

[shell flame]

Happy (late) anniversary to the pig war

[zealous vine]

Wait what is this 💀

Smolensk gun??

[chilly osprey]

They're from a series of studies done by Ansaldo on quadruple turrets arrangements, at some point in the 1930s up to 1940.

[cinder escarp]

I've been to the battlefronts of the pig war, brutal conflict that was...

[solid mango]

I love these absolute memes

[lunar sand]

Why is the Charles De Gaulle the only non-US carrier to utilize CATOBAR

You'd think these countries would wanna standardize a bit more

For emergencies

[ivory ridge]

Because expensive

[shrewd pecan]

China's newest carrier has CATOBAR

beyond that its a mixture of costs and development time

its far easier to develop and build a STOBAR carrier than a CATOBAR

[dapper parcel]

You also don't just develop a catobar-capable aircraft for funsies

[rapid junco]

@delicate beacon

The ship in the picture is Imperial Marinheiro
And for some reason, it is bearing the dutch flag

[shrewd pecan]

France's carrier has a clear role in doctrine and national defense strategy

most nations don't require a full blown super carrier

[eternal veldt]

May 28, 1970, La Spezia. Former French destroyer flotilla leader Châteaurenault (Italian light cruiser Attilio Regolo until 1947) awaits for her dismantling to commence.

[ivory ridge]

Also much much easier to build a stovl carrier if you're friend with the US

[alpine onyx]

I smell... a 105mm L/65 C/33

[ivory ridge]

[chilly osprey]

six, in fact

[ivory ridge]

six too many

[spring briar]

[tribal mortar]

Holy shit Korean KF51

[strong plank]

the gang is all here

[runic prairie]

Has anyone here performed a Freedom of Information Act request?

Just asking.

[solid mango]

Yipee Little Rock 78th birthday

[eternal veldt]

shiny

[long swallow]

It’s unlocked

[ivory ridge]

https://twitter.com/exoticaviation/status/1670039289919356928?t=uT6aH9SpThf-fxJG_uxmWg&s=19

Echoes in the Sky (@exoticaviation)

scanned slide: “Buckingham Palace Flypast, June 1980”
(https://t.co/kwp2SQFsZC)

Likes

3621

Retweets

380

Twitter · Jun 17, 2023, 12:02 PM

Where is the Vulcan simp

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBQVR4epfBQ

[chilly osprey]

https://twitter.com/cencio4/status/1670398465287901184?t=SunzzlaokaNo3Iaa1k0FYA&s=19

David Cenciotti (@cencio4)

What a crazy formation!!!!! How many fighter generations in one shot!

Likes

194

Twitter · Jun 18, 2023, 11:50 AM

[spring briar]

bottom is coolest

[zealous vine]

Has there ever been a destroyer-sized warship designed with triple turrets?

(Destroyer-sized being max around Spahkreuzer or CRomani)

[dapper parcel]

Does monitor counts?

[zealous vine]

Guh 💀

[autumn sorrel]

Depend on caliber, 5'/38 dual mount is pretty large and heavy, anything more heavy like a tripple might cause top stability issues

[zealous vine]

I guess

[zealous vine]

Well, not American designs specifically

[dapper parcel]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_M27

[autumn sorrel]

There is a tripple mount for DD size gun but it was on a BC

[dapper parcel]

That one above is the exact same thing from Renown

[autumn sorrel]

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_4-45_mk9.php

[zealous vine]

?

[autumn sorrel]

Renown gun

[zealous vine]

Ah, perfect

[dapper parcel]

You know what? TIL it was 3-gun turret instead of triple gun turret

[autumn sorrel]

Yeah, it was pretty bad mount

I remember Drach give a fit over it, he really hate that mount

[zealous vine]

A little stupid but weirdly cool

[spring briar]

I like it

[autumn sorrel]

Need to find a quad mount for DD

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5aw2JymR1g

[ivory ridge]

If we include the CRs then there is a CR preliminary with triple turrets

Also a version with 3x3

[chilly osprey]

They also installed triple 135mm turrets on the Duilio-class battleships when they rebuilt them at teh end of the 1930s.

[manic latch]

Finally found WiFi, i have connected back to humanity

Also yeah

There is no DDs with triple guns

Its like universal Law not to do

[solid mango]

should I break the law?

[desert agate]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUVxnivq2q0&ab_channel=AustralianMilitaryAviationHistory

[shrewd pecan]

does this youtube channel just constantly cut between a American narrator and a Australian one?

[maiden citrus]

I would duo a video on the sabre with hit

[autumn sorrel]

Depend on what law you intend to break

[manic latch]

@maiden citrus https://theaviationgeekclub.com/in-the-early-1960s-soviet-union-sold-titanium-to-the-us-believing-they-needed-it-for-pizza-ovens-but-instead-they-used-it-to-build-the-iconic-sr-71-blackbird-mach-3-spy-plane/

Y yu lie

[ivory ridge]

[spring briar]

Git fukd

[zealous vine]

[strong plank]

A mild amount of tomfoolery

[maiden citrus]

The blackbirds are the pizza delivery girls

[dapper parcel]

What kind of oven need titanium lol

[manic latch]

https://www.marineinsight.com/shipping-news/china-plans-to-build-star-wars-type-super-warship-equivalent-to-an-entire-carrier-fleet/

https://tenor.com/view/my-true-reaction-cat-funny-gif-26404518

[eternal veldt]

When you order a pizza to bumfuck nowhere and require superdonic delivery

[glass trail]

i mean...

[hot nymph]

Doesn't shock me, though it is not their navy that I am concerned about in the slightest. they have a green water navy, which at best, gives them 400 miles of length off the coast of the mainland. Well, at least for where I live that is

[manic latch]

Quasar

You do have the weirdest takes

[somber knoll]

A weapon to surpass Metal Gear

[hot nymph]

wdym?

[runic prairie]

I have a name suggestion.

“Target Practice.”

[manic latch]

Bold claim when you have the current largest warship

[subtle prawn]

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0619/1389889-uruguay-bronze-eagle/

[spring briar]

[runic prairie]

True but that warship is specialized to do exactly one thing, handle aircraft.

It has some improved point-defense capabilities but these are secondary given that other ships in the CVBG are its primary defense.

Single “do everything” ships are bad because they waste resources on a ship that can maybe do a couple roles at a time. More ships= more flexibility in most circumstances.

There are cases where size does come with advantages. Managing aircraft is benefited (to a point, iirc anything more than like 120-140 aircraft and you start seeing problems). Larger cruisers can use bigger sensors and have deeper VLS magazines.

But each if these have tradeoffs and the law of diminishing returns is a thing.

[eternal veldt]

[alpine onyx]

I see , I offer cute Deutschland

[maiden citrus]

a good

[eternal veldt]

Hold on, shitzig had baltic stripes as well at one point IIRC?

Probably still can"t save her

[alpine onyx]

Shitzig is like a foundation made of sand

Doesn't matter what you build on it, the result is crap

[eternal veldt]

Dont diss sandcastles like that

[alpine onyx]

now baltic on Köln

that's a sight

this does not spark joy

somewhat better

[thorn trail]

Shitzig is Leipzig right?

Why Shitzig

[eternal veldt]

ask our dear Sirene here and he shall lay it all clear

[alpine onyx]

Because design wise she was a (significant) downgrade from the Königsberg class, with worse armor and worse propulsion for no measurable benefit, ruining the amazing groundwork the K-class laid out.

[runic prairie]

Sand, with the right reinforcement and layering can be a useful structural material. It is one of the base materials for many structures

To insinuate that Shitzig is at all like sand is to insult sand.

Sand can become many things in its journey. From the stained glass windows of a cathedral to the lowly aggregate for concrete. It has higher purpose above its lowly station.

Shitzig has no such redeeming qualities. She didn’t even serve as a prepackaged coffin for Nazis.

[eternal veldt]

I mean, sand is used to make glass

[alpine onyx]

Service history wise she was more hindrance than anything, they didn't even bother repairing her fully and then she lunged herself in front of Eugen trying to end her misery (and also failing at that, while causing damage to what was at that time one of the most important surface naval units)

[subtle prawn]

So I haven't touched my German CL book yet, but what exactly were the designers trying to accomplish with her?

[alpine onyx]

they tried to fix the issues with the K-class

most notable that the K-class needed to stop for a few minutes to change from diesel to steam propulsion, and vice versa, by having a third shaft on Shitzig with dedicated Diesel motors. As a result her cruising range was significantly reduced, and she still had to stop for coupling processes when entering or ending cruising (which resulted in the infamous collision)

not sure if they were hoping to improve her survivability by introducing that meager turtleback, but with how hard they fucked up the belt and bulkheads it's safe to say that whatever they wanted to improve armor wise, it failed

This is Leipzig's belt

Meanwhile Königsberg, not 100% to scale, but the idea comes across

[spring briar]

[maiden citrus]

pain

[alpine onyx]

Are you not entertained?!

[maiden citrus]

no armor abomination

entertained in the same way one watches a horror movie

[alpine onyx]

Then stick around for K-class

Very smooth

Unless the refit happens

Then it gets wild

But until then, very straight forward

[eternal veldt]

very wild indeed /s

[alpine onyx]

Narnia closet

[autumn sorrel]

Why hate Leipzig?

[eternal veldt]

@maiden citrus West Virginia 1944's booklet of general plans are now finally available in full

[maiden citrus]

[eternal veldt]

sorry, still no side profile for some reason.

[maiden citrus]

very nice

[dapper parcel]

I'm surprised they didn't try to clutch the reduction gear input shaft

Y'now, just like what RENK usually do

[eternal veldt]

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/new-longest-hit-by-battleship-uss-massachusetts-ne-t44680-s30.html an interesting read on the 28,000 yard hit claim by Massy on Milan, albeit with shit-flinging included

Quite a number of people are not convinced due to "vanishingly small" chances because Massy's FCs and some guns were out of action

[alpine onyx]

Because of expectations. One would hope that a successor would either be just as good or better as the predecessor. Leipzig is not. If Leipzig was the first modern ship the Reichs/Kriegsmarine would build, a lot of slack could be cut. But she's not, and as a "Königsberg, but better" she sucks

[alpine onyx]

Oops, meant to reply to

Love how the first counterargument to the Massa his boils down to "it's unlikely to have happened, so it didn't"

[eternal veldt]

🤔

[spring briar]

Mochi at Casablanca?

[eternal veldt]

get the book riche

I need the hole

(please don't take it out of context)

[spring briar]

Was le malin at casablanca tho

I think he means Milan

[alpine onyx]

Jeez what a shit flinging contest

If I had a cookie for everytime an unlikely event happened during a naval engagement

I'd weight 150kg

[eternal veldt]

both

Le Malin was at the harbor, Massy's shell landed in the quay, exploded, and smacked Milan a bit, who was at sea

Milan herself ate a 16" directly, and so did Fougueux, the latter then getting beaten even harder by Tuscaloosa and Wichita

This should help

[maiden citrus]

[chilly nimbus]

anyone know what the gun on the left is

[ivory ridge]

Anti drone gun

Not sure which model exactly

[strong plank]

I thought that was a G11 for a brief second

lord could you imagine

[dapper parcel]

Only covering ISM band? seriously?

Also 433MHz with that physical dimension

[spring briar]

Don’t

[maiden citrus]

mass

[strong plank]

open the image and the first words I see are ‘au meme moment’

[spring briar]

Non

[maiden citrus]

mass and jb kiss

[spring briar]

You hurt me dds

[runic prairie]

Hurting DDs?

Based if I do say so.

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfu02fsnHNg

[eternal veldt]

Remind me again that Gibbs had an entire series of hybrids? or just Pr 1058 Design B and the downscaled C?

A and D to my knowledge are conventional, with A being 8 x 18"

[spring briar]

Don’t see anything about Le Mochi here

[eternal veldt]

Don't have the book

[spring briar]

Is ok

Anyways what’s all this about?

[alpine onyx]

There are signs hinting towards Massachusetts holding the longest hit on a moving warship record

some people refuse to believe that Warspite is merely shared second place, and fight tooth and nail against that

[spring briar]

I don’t know why it matters that much

The Massa -> Milan hit is hard to prove definitively in any case

[eternal veldt]

I mean, the argument concerns whether Massy is the No.1 in the longest hit department

Bound to stir up some discussion, just like the White Plains vs Yamato thing

still remember seeing it on the War Thunder forum and watching it devolve into shit-flinging and arguing what and what isn't a "hit"

[spring briar]

Idc I just want my DD’s back

The longest hit in my headcanon is the hit on milan anyways

I know I’m not making a lot of sense rn but I just don’t see the importance

[eternal veldt]

I'm happy to leave it up as "debated/contended"

[spring briar]

Headcanon

[manic latch]

Then mine is Tashkent

[ivory ridge]

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1670870745289728001

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1940, Congress passed the Vinson-Walsh "Two-Ocean Navy" Act which increased the size of the U.S. Navy by 70%. It was the largest naval procurement bill in U.S. history, adding 18 carriers, 7 battleships, 33 cruisers, 115 destroyers, 43 subs and 15k aircraft to the fleet.

Twitter · Jun 19, 2023, 7:06 PM

https://news.usni.org/2023/06/19/u-s-canadian-coast-guards-searching-for-5-aboard-missing-submersible-on-titanic-dive

[manic latch]

Mark 38 25 mm  anti boat training

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NAMELESS_JSDF/status/1670604623839723523

I_NAMELESS_I (@NAMELESS_JSDF)

ある意味で興味深い外観を持つ、まだODグリーンの塗装しか施されていないばかりの新型90TKです。

The Type 90 straight from the box wearing OD green color has an interesting looks !…

Likes

726

Retweets

107

Twitter · Jun 19, 2023, 1:29 AM

[rapid junco]

A Sea King has been placed on static display on São Pedro da Aldeia (state of RJ) this friday

[zealous vine]

What BCs and BBs other than Tirpitz and Scharnhorst have deck torps?

(pocket BBs uncounted, paper designs included)

[subtle prawn]

O-class

AKA Siegfried in WoWS or Brunhilde in AL

[eternal veldt]

O-class's torpedoes are internally fitted ala Trento/pre-refit Myoukous, I think.

Nagato and Mutsu had something similar as well albeit removed in their final refits.

The Amagi class as designed also had 8 tubes

[runic prairie]

https://books.google.com/books/about/Magnificent_Mavericks.html?id=yoDfAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&gboemv=1&ov2=1#v=onepage&q&f=false

A good book on China Lake and the early post-war missile programs there.

[zealous vine]

👍

[dapper parcel]

Nagato-class got four single tube above water launcher just below the aft funnel, but I won't exactly call it deck launcher

[brittle vale]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-65943819.amp

[eternal veldt]

Neither does the O-class fit in this case, to be honest

But the Germans are tired of Shitzig, so might as well cannibalize her for parts

Hence the deck swivel launchers

[cinder escarp]

I don't have them, but they made at least a half dozen proposals to various navies. USN was smart to laugh them off.

[eternal veldt]

Im only aware that the RN had a couple wacky designs. Any of these proposals I can read on?

Design B and C, Im aware of. Others, not do much.

[cinder escarp]

I've seen discussion of them at various points, but don't have them myself either.

[runic prairie]

That’s a shame.

[deep apex]

Wdym? This is only one of just 2 pieces of her still in existence with the other being her rangefinder

[spring briar]

Whitewashing history is bad

No matter what side of said history you’re on

[junior trench]

1 rangefinder too many

[alpine onyx]

It belongs in a museum

[strong plank]

Just give it to the British as a trophy

Since it’s often credited as their kill

They can put it in a museum explaining its historical significance

it’s not like the British museum is particularly picky about where its artifacts come from

[autumn sorrel]

Maybe, something are better left at the bottom of the ocean

[autumn sorrel]

Wait, why stuff from Graf Spee is being salvaged? Isn't she a war grave?

[alpine onyx]

Not really a grave, all crew abandoned her before she was scuttled

[autumn sorrel]

Oh, so she is open for salvage?

[desert agate]

She's property of the Uruguayan govrrnment

Because she's located in their waters and not a war grave

[autumn sorrel]

Why do I have a bad feeling? Something about how what left of Graf Spee in the future will just be an indent on the sand where she were.

[eager dove]

Yes that’s what all shipwrecks will be eventually

[eternal veldt]

Some of the wrecks are already immediately removed due to being navigational hazards and a general pain in the ass in shipping channels

For example, Nachi was blown to smithereens in Manila Harbor

[celest fractal]

What caused the fire of SS Normandie?

[unborn wyvern]

welders torch ignited flammable materials causing a fire

[eternal veldt]

Then incompetence burnt the ship down

The ship designer was on site and telling the firemen where to go

"nah bro we can handle this ok"

(they can't)

[unborn wyvern]

to be fair, the technology for a interior attack didn't exist at the time and the incident commander probably didn't want to risk his men trying to flood the ship to stabilize it

[eternal veldt]

Or just a gross underestimation of the severity of the fires and what ingress of water does to a ship

[unborn wyvern]

counter argument, the SCBA we all know and love, hasn't been invented yet, the FDNY isn't well versed in onboard ship damage control, the insides of ships are confusing enough already, nevermind this one is full of smoke and fire.

When USS Bonhomme Richard caught fire an Interior attack and counterflooding damage control was done and although the ship was a loss it wasn't sunk because the San Diego FD and USN FD had SCBA, they were well versed in onboard ship damage control and the technology was avalible for an interior attack

[astral acorn]

All ships sinks

[unborn wyvern]

FDNY Firefighters from 1940 those coats are rubber, designed to keep water from soaking Firefighter Fred's underpants, the helmet is leather and could save you from a bump on the head but it's mostly for letting the water roll down you back like a duck. there's no protection from the heat, there's no breathing apparatus, there's just you and your massive firefighter balls

[thorn trail]

wasn't it also due to the admiral in charge?

who didn't listen to the ship designer

[eternal veldt]

Andrews, yes

[unborn wyvern]

compared to Sand Diego/US Navy Firefighters on Bonhomme Richard. aside from the blueberry in front, no skin is exposed, the suits and helmets are made of kevlar, they do have SCBAs and fireproof gloves in addition to their massive firefighter balls

[unborn wyvern]

yeah the commanding officer himself probably wasn't well versed in onboard firefighting too and probably didn't want to risk people going down and counter-flooding even though that was the right thing to do or he thought the fire could be contained through a exterior attack alone.

[hazy ether]

double trouble

[hazy ether]

basically most BBs and BCs up to the Washington Naval Treaty were outfitted with torps

[ivory ridge]

underwater torps

not deck mounted

[hazy ether]

ah yeah, my bad

[strong plank]

I believe she was initially salvaged bc her wreck was blocking access to port

or something like that

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1671200738050027537

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD 1900, Boxers beseiged the diplomatic quarter in Peking. These are reps from the coalition sent in response: Britain, US, Australia, India, Germany, France, Austria-Hungary, Italy and Japan. The Brit insisted on being tallest in line, so he is standing closest to the camera.

Twitter · Jun 20, 2023, 4:58 PM

[thorny patio]

So the USS monitor... Everytime i look at it, i get the feeling it wasn't at all meant for open water... It sits very low in the water... To me it seems to be more for river combat...

[tribal mortar]

Historical wise...

Name me a CL and CA that has a potential if being in AL, being a cross fleet barrage dealer

[runic prairie]

A CL or CA with long range capability?

[tribal mortar]

CL/CA/CB

[runic prairie]

Alaska class

[tribal mortar]

Just anything from the cruisers that able to do cross fleet barrage in AL, historically

so one day, we will see full fleet consists of the cross fleeters

[runic prairie]

That’s because it wasn’t. It’s a littoral vessel.

[tribal mortar]

We have so many cross fleet backliners but we lack the front ones that it is just Kron and Shima all over

[thorny patio]

Honestly, i feel more CVs than just the URs need a cross-fleet barrage... If we're dead set on accuracy, because strategically, CVs weren't meant to be positioned at a close enough distance that the enemy backline could immediately shoot at them

[runic prairie]

Where could I find this rangefinder?

For research purposes of course.

[manic latch]

Kitakami, Stalingrad, Project 66, Worcester, Des Moines etc

Could add Italian 203mm projects

[alpine onyx]

What is cross barrage about?

Just a powerful long range salvo?

Entire Deutschland class would be suitable for that

[tribal mortar]

Hmmm... Oh okay... I will take the info

[nocturne thicket]

@sullen yew

You can tell me I'm wrong, lol

[spring briar]

https://tenor.com/view/bullet-explode-gif-7743467

Naval armor in 1905

[rapid junco]

Found a pic of Yat Sen

[maiden citrus]

[eternal veldt]

Ah yes, one of the worst RN mutinies due to absolutely idiotic rules set by the captain.

Geez, I wonder what would happen if I set a rule to punish the slowest rigger by getting him flogged

men falls on deck and turned into a blood splatter

[shrewd pecan]

pavehawk

[eternal veldt]

Emergency steering compartment on USS Pennsylvania BB-38 in 1936.

In case of a loss of rudder control from the bridge or conning tower, crewmen would man these ships wheels to manually turn the rudder.

A similar compartment can be seen today on USS Texas.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1671323678066331650

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1970, USS Tautog (SSN-639) collided with Soviet sub K-108. Chunks of K-108's screw became embedded in Tautog's sail. The U.S. was convinced that K-108 had been sunk in the accident, but later learned that the sub managed to return to port. The incident was kept secret.

Twitter · Jun 21, 2023, 1:06 AM

[strong plank]

Awfully optimistic but yeah

[stiff mauve]

I guess any of the Panzerschiff/ Large Cruisers really

[manic latch]

@tough quail here cool copy paste about Borodino's origin

Essentially the CNII-45 suggested, that instead of one very big very costly superbattleship like Project 23(Soyuz)/24(Krem/Slava/Ushakov) from wows), several smaller ships could be build, carrying the same size armament but with less guns per hull. Basically, they suggested to "divide" one superbattleship between 2-3 smaller units, operating together. While individually, each ship was inferior to full-sized battleship, as a squadron, they surpassed full-sized battleship, especially in durability (damage to one ship would not affect others).

Twenty-one designs of such "small battleships" were prepared. They were armed with different combinations of 406-457-mm turrets (like one triple 406-mm turret per ship, or two twin 406-mm superfiring turrets, or one twin and one triple 406-mm turrets, or one dual 457-mm turret, ect.). It was hoped that progress in fire control systems - especially in data exchange between ships - would allow several small battleships to fire at one target as efficiently, as one big battleship could do. Since 1-2 big gun turret weren't enough for self-defense, it was also assumed that small battleships would carry intermediate armament in terms of 180-mm or 220-mm guns. Armor was limited, air defense mainly in terms of short-range autocannons (it was assumed that such ships would be protected from air attacks by cruisers and destroyers with DP cannons).

[manic latch]

@humble mulch this can be cool Voltron concept

When 3-4 CNII-45 sisters are together they turn into a super battleship

[tough quail]

well that's creative

[manic latch]

Sadly, the project fell through, because the small battleship simply could not be made "small enough". Even the most limited designs still assumed the 30.000-ton ship, costly and lenghty to construct. The gain was not good enough. Navy didn't like them also, arguing that they are limited and overcomplicated. So, after Stalin death, the whole project was quietly abandoned.

But yeah I do like this "datalink" idea from 50s

[deep apex]

A pile of life jackets caught fire from sparks produced by an area where welding was going on. Normandie hadn't yet been stripped of all her decor and it rapidly became an inferno. Her firefighting equipment was worthless and so much water was sprayed on the ship from other ships that she became uncontrollably unstable and capsized. All while in port.

[tough quail]

oh, no

Normandie had a pretty good system for firefighting

It was just disconnected during the conversions and the pumps were turned off

Because fucking geniuses

[deep apex]

That's why I said it was worthless

because it wasn't working

[tough quail]

just need to emphasize that its not a ship design fault

but instead glorious third naval district incompetence

[hazy ether]

Nagato before got nuked in 1946

[eternal veldt]

No, this is prior to nuking, when US insepctors were on board at Tokyo Bay.

Nagato did not survive the second nuke. She developed a minor list, but was expected to survive

Then she slipped under the waves overnight with nobody to witness it

By 1946, Nagato is practically dysfunctional

Also, something a bit more lighthearted, not sure how trustworthy

[hazy ether]

ah thanks

[autumn sorrel]

Are they expected to make a post treaty BB that weight less than 30k ton, carrying 16-18inch gun, have the machinery to achieve desirable speed and have enough armor to survive a hit from a Standard? I know Soviet are prone to a bit delusional but that take it to a whole new level.

[hazy ether]

30k ton
18" guns

Might as well as design a battlecruiser instead like the Incomparable class BC

[ornate wind]

The hull form would be fucked though. You’d need a good amount of beam to mount and fire 18” guns effectively, which means you’ll need a long ship to make good pace. This goes beyond delusional and right into bad idea territory

[hazy ether]

That sounds like Incomparable Class BC. A battlecruiser hull mounting 508mm guns.

Made by yours truly, the madman Admiral Jack Fisher

[spring briar]

It was never designed with 508’s

[maiden citrus]

hms irresponsible

[spring briar]

Fischer never designed it with 508mm guns
What he did was send a letter to the Elswick ordnance company (EOC) asking what the largest and heaviest barrel was that they could make

EOC answered him that the heaviest that they could do was 200 tons

This would be a 508mm/40 caliber gun with only about 27 km range at max

This was not sufficient, so Fisher made his HMS Incomparable designs with 16” and 18” guns

Which would have a longer barrel relative to the caliber

[hazy ether]

Aren't the 18" ended up on the Furious instead?

[spring briar]

Those preceded the 18” fisher wanted

[hazy ether]

Ah okay so i take it that Fisher wants the biggest gun for his dream BC but reality hits and he had to settle to 18" instead of 20"

[dapper parcel]

He never specifically ask for 20" in the first place

[hazy ether]

I get it, the 20" is the biggest available when he ask for recommendation i take it

[zealous vine]

97m is this big

A Gearing's already 115m

Man, warships are quite big

[hazy ether]

What ship is this?

[stiff mauve]

Wait so they wanted built Russian Richie on less displacement???????

“By November 1915 Fisher is President of the Board of Inventions and Research and he makes enquiries of A.G. Hadcock as to what was the largest possible gun that Elswick could manufacture with existing plant. The answer was a 20 inch, 40 calibre, 200 ton gun, firing a shell weighing 4,500lbs (with a 400lb bursting charge) and with a muzzle velocity of 2250-2300 feet per second. Range at 30 degree elevation and a muzzle velocity of 2300fps was estimated at 17.5 miles (30,800 yards). Elswick at once began design work on the gun as well as single and twin turrets in which to mount it (d’Eyncourt’s papers confirm that this design work was completed). The 1915 designs of both ‘Citadel’ and ‘Incomparable’ were updated to take the new weapon and the precise details of these 1916 designs are still whistling in the wind. This, however, was the final design of ‘Incomparable’. Although Fisher was serious about building her, to do so, he needed to get back into power. As that event failed to materialise, ‘Incomparable’ passed into legend; and quite a mangled, misunderstood legend it turned into.”

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/alltheworldsbattlecruisers/incomparable-project-t8624.html

Seems to argue that they at least intended for the final design to mount 20” but not sure as to the veracity of the statement

[eternal veldt]

When you have zero infastructure limitations, anything is possible

if you want a gun caliber contest on the "thinking" level, the US wins, hands down

[hazy ether]

What book is that screenshot from?

[eternal veldt]

@maiden citrus I bring gifts

[eternal veldt]

Norman Friedman's US Battleships: An Illustrated Design History

[hazy ether]

Thanks! I'll try to find it online now.

[maiden citrus]

mmmm the goodies

[strong plank]

The Tillmans?

[eternal veldt]

see what Dark posted.

This is bigger than Tillman.

[strong plank]

I thought the maximum battleships were the tillmans

Ah I see the date

[hazy ether]

Looks like the US equivalent of H-class designs

[eternal veldt]

When size is needed, the US will throw hands with you

dummy thick ships

Don't worry, just put 56 boilers into this ship

it's fine

[spring briar]

Bruh the French wrote about a 84cm gun tho

[hazy ether]

I just wondering what would Iowa-class look like if the cold war program of conversion into a guided missile Battleship came into fruition

[eternal veldt]

Care to share?

[ivory ridge]

Morosini in Japan

Next to Kumano, which tbh is a pretty similar design

127mm gun, ffbnw VLS

[spring briar]

No

(It was a study on the effects of shell weight)

(I have to find it again)

[zealous vine]

It's a Japanese training ship, Nippon Maru

It's now a museum

[chilly nimbus]

did you end up visiting yokosuka

[hazy ether]

Looks so cool

[chilly nimbus]

or just stayed in yokohama

[hazy ether]

Please say you also visits Mikasa in the meantime

[chilly nimbus]

I went to sakami in december and left a note
also visited the naval base and got some nice shots

[spring briar]

In any case keep in mind we only ever dipped our toes into 18” guns in terms of real life battleships
20” would be impractical beyond measure

[zealous vine]

My parents tried to fit everything under a week, so sadly I might only be able to visit the ship science museum in Shinagawa and Nippon Maru

Yamato museum is so far away

[chilly nimbus]

yeah that's fair
any chance to visit yushukan?

[zealous vine]

First hotel stay is in Akihabara

[chilly nimbus]

yushukan is way better than the yamato museum

when I went to kure I got to see kaga getting her square bow fitted though

[zealous vine]

Woah

How much of warship history is there in Yushukan?

Oh shit just checked out how close Yushukan is to Akihabara, I should've told my parents sooner when we were near there

[chilly nimbus]

I'd say like 60% of the exhibit is naval stuff

[zealous vine]

Worth it 👍

[chilly nimbus]

there's english text too if you don't know japanese

[zealous vine]

Yah, a lot of things are translated here

Surprisingly

[chilly nimbus]

not in kure

[zealous vine]

Oh damn

I regret not planning a little, but as a first timer, I guess it's alright

(and besides that, it's already quite great)

[desert agate]

https://twitter.com/TheBaseLeg/status/1671470628707377153?t=QZyBkfAXlU84g8-CRwfkmA&s=19

Mike Yeo 杨启铭 is also at post.news/thebaseleg (@TheBaseLeg)

VMFA-314 F-35Cs make unscheduled diversion to Papua New Guinea. Should be the ones using the PINE callsign noted at Honolulu on a Coronet West deployment a few days back

Twitter · Jun 21, 2023, 10:50 AM

[autumn sorrel]

https://youtu.be/ByAu_1x3Sz8

[frozen kestrel]

Quick question (because the internet never gives me the answer I'm looking for): What Japanese carriers launched the aircraft for the Attack on Pearl Harbor?

[thorn trail]

6 carriers
Akagi Kaga
Shoukaku Zuikaki
Hiryuu Soryuu

[frozen kestrel]

Ah, so all six fleet carriers

[dapper parcel]

No way that info isn't in internet

[thorn trail]

it's in the internet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_battle_of_the_Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

Wikipedia even has a page on it

[frozen kestrel]

There has to be a more reliable source

[dapper parcel]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_battle_of_the_Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#References For the more reliabe sources

[thorn trail]

I mean you can check the references in the bottom

[eternal veldt]

http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Pacific/OOB_WWII_Pearl_Harbor.php

Navweaps is generally reliable on orders of battle

[thorn trail]

I wonder why the carrier divs go from 1st, 2nd then 5th

Like why was 3rd and 4th used for seaplane tenders

[eternal veldt]

by year of commission, likely

[thorn trail]

Ah

[humble mulch]

Yeah later ones are the funny conversions

[dapper parcel]

1st is Akagi/Kaga
2nd is Souryuu/Hiryuu
3rd is Houshou/Zuihou
4th is Ryuujou/Taiyou
5th is Shoukaku/Zuikaku

There's more division formed by CAVs, but it's fluid (I think)

[humble mulch]

Think they went up to 7, but 7th only had 1 ship

Then midway happened

[thorn trail]

CAVs is what again?

[dapper parcel]

Seaplane carrying heavy cruiser

[dapper parcel]

After Midway it was
1st Shoukaku/Suikaku
2nd Junyou/Ryuujou
3rd Chitose/Chiyoda
4th Hyuuga/Ise

[thorn trail]

Why wasn't Hiyou there

[dapper parcel]

Hiyou was in 4th for a while before Midway, and 2nd after Midway

[shrewd pecan]

https://vxtwitter.com/i/status/1671538464704143361

https://vxtwitter.com/i/status/1662116380320182274

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK82Tw3lwgo

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/RCAF_ARC/status/1671520269544849408

Royal Canadian Air Force (@RCAF_ARC)

The two missing air crew members from the RCAF CH-147F Chinook that crashed in the Ottawa River on Tuesday June 20, were found last evening. Tragically, neither member survived. The names of the deceased individuals are not being released at the request of their families.

Likes

245

Twitter · Jun 21, 2023, 2:07 PM

[manic latch]

Just

Think Hms Furious with 2 457mm

But larger body

It doesn't sound impossible

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmA3jPOLT-s

[stiff mauve]

18” mightve been the most practical but we all know the US probably wouldve gone for autoloading 24” just to laugh at everyone with their absurdity /s

[manic latch]

No

Or else Montana would go with 457mm too

[bronze sinew]

does anyone ahve any footage on the capitani romani class other than this clip on youtube?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xhku_8UcUw

[maiden citrus]

@ivory ridge may

[bronze sinew]

[alpine onyx]

@chilly osprey or the flamin bird

[zealous vine]

Is it me or is turret B really high up?

[strong plank]

its the angle

[zealous vine]

Traced the hidden parts of turret B

That barbette is exposed 2 decks or 3

[autumn sorrel]

Are we capable of restarting the manufacturing of battleship grade armor plate and 16inch gun in a couple of yrs, even decades or is it lostech?

[remote monolith]

you can't just sneak in Battletech terms like that you inner spheroid

[autumn sorrel]

Oops, got busted am I

[remote monolith]

more seriously, I guess it's not lostech per se since I'm sure we still have all the blueprints, we just need a lot more political willingness and years of construction to actually restart making battleships

[zealous vine]

I mean, there's probably enough blueprints and even instructions floating around in the internet's entirety that if you had permission, manpower and money, you'd probably even make a replica

[rapid junco]

No one:
Clickbaity defence channels in my country:

Certified bruh moment

[misty umbra]

Brazilian Army stronk

[autumn sorrel]

You haven't seen Vietnamese "military channel" yet

[rapid junco]

[rapid junco]

In that case it would be the Air Force
Since the army aviation don't have fixed wing aircraft
And when it tried
The FAB made so much fuss they didn't do it

The news btw
Is that the FAB and EMBRAER has started the studies for a MLU for the A-29s

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2023/06/22/coast-guard-titan-submersible-suffered-catastrophic-loss-debris-found-near-titanic-wreck

[cinder escarp]

All evidence is the central tube shattered. Don't use carbon fiber for submarine hulls.

[wintry moat]

Lol

[manic latch]

Battleship idea should just die