history

[shrewd pecan]

but dear god at least the vehicle itself is functional for what it is

[autumn sorrel]

But Indian start mass produce T-90, no? I can't imagine they can mess it up when they have all of the spec and help from Russia

[shrewd pecan]

its a licensed vehicle

additionally Russia still has the means to mass produce vehicles

main issue is importing the things that actually make said vehicles functional

electronics, ball bearings, so on and so on

[tough quail]

we meme about reverse engineering but it's very hard to actually make a comparable vehicle that isn't just a flat copy when you have essentially zero tank design experience

[autumn sorrel]

Which Iraqi T-72 are we talking about? The export version? The lion of Babylon ver? Or the copy of a copy of a copy?

[shrewd pecan]

to be fair that was hyperbole

but uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

leopard 2 style storage without blowout panels

[manic latch]

Isn't 600 at 2km bad

[shrewd pecan]

its not the worse

for a dart that size

[tough quail]

if you want ammo stowage

welcome to hell

[thorn trail]

hold on. the F-35 having worse subsonic acceleration than the Su-57? lol. As far as engines go the F135 is the best in subsonic acceleration lol

No way the Su-57 can out-accelerate the F-35 at subsonic speeds with the F135s massive TWR

[manic latch]

Weight...

Higher is better right?

For f 35 it's Thrust/weight: 0.87 at gross weight (1.07 at loaded weight with 50% internal fuel)

For su 57 it's Thrust/weight: 1.16 at normal takeoff weight (0.99 at loaded weight with full fuel)

Hmm

[thorn trail]

TWR for the entire plane yeah but the F135 has the advantage of being tuned to high subsonic speed

The F35 has a higher subsonic acceleration than the F-22 despite the F-22 on paper having higher TWR

[manic latch]

[thorn trail]

Trying to remember where I read that the F-35 has amazing subsonic acceleration

[manic latch]

r/ncd

[thorn trail]

Nope found it.

[manic latch]

I have no idea what language is this

Oh Norway

My blind ass

[thorn trail]

Yeah

[manic latch]

However

This is vs F16

What's F-22's data

[thorn trail]

All I can find is at the higher end of the flight envelope

From public data

Officially the F-22 requirements for acceleration was 54s iirc

[manic latch]

Camo

[strong plank]

Oh wait I actually know this

but can I remember it

I had an unclassified brief on the Raptor a week ago

[tough quail]

wonder if we'll start getting new details in the next few years

since the raptor fleet is starting to get on its way out

[strong plank]

They’re still keeping some details close to their chest

I wasn’t allowed to take a picture of the F-22 we got to see bc it had its gun flap open

[manic latch]

Lucky guy

[ivory ridge]

https://twitter.com/AbdNav2K2/status/1652443402175401984

Abd Nav (@AbdNav2K2)

I might as well show the Tonka some love today. Italian zappers going at it in the low-level with their ECRs during Iniochos. 📸 Panagiotis Katsichtis.

Likes

161

Twitter · Apr 29, 2023, 10:43 PM

[tough quail]

rad

[frigid karma]

"rig for dive"

[frigid karma]

This is an oddly prescient comment, Tato

From 2019

are you perhaps aware of certain classified things?

[ivory ridge]

Click comment
see pfp of the other guy in the conversation

[frigid karma]

https://tenor.com/view/neco-neco-arc-melty-blood-neco-arc-swag-neco-arc-swagging-gif-26428286

[shrewd pecan]

did I just

predict something incredibly stupid

[frigid karma]

i believe you did

[shrewd pecan]

back when I was a far more dumber person

[frigid karma]

you traded your brain for prescience

[shrewd pecan]

ah

that profile pic

tho carrier capable B-21

is honestly not the worse idea

[frigid karma]

doubtful

B-2 is already twice as heavy as a C-130, I doubt B-21 can make such a launch

[shrewd pecan]

B-21 is much smaller

than the B-2

[frigid karma]

Even so, could it shed half the weight?

[shrewd pecan]

Is there even proper weight metrics out there for the 21

[frigid karma]

I'm just skeptical it can cut its weight from the B-2 enough for a carrier launch, or if it even indeed needs to

with its extreme range

[shrewd pecan]

I’m just saying in general

A deep strike platform that’s carrier capable

Wouldn’t be a bad idea

[frigid karma]

the capability is certainly desirable; i just doubt it's feasible

But hey, i'm willing to cope for a CVN-82 Hornet with Super Hornets and Raiders

[shrewd pecan]

B-21 itself would need massive modifications in the first place to be able to achieve that

Tho I’m generally curious why you mentioned that like four year old cringe comment

Is CVN-82 gonna be named after hornet or something?

[frigid karma]

No, I just found it interesting how you predicted B-21 would be named something in relation to hornet

[shrewd pecan]

I mean they literally had the last survivor of the Doolittle raid there

[frigid karma]

fair

[shrewd pecan]

It’s not hard for a Yakuban ape brain like mine to put one and one to together

god the fact this entire concept lead to Malcom X getting shot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakub_(Nation_of_Islam)

“The doctrine of Yakub was one of the reasons for splits in the Nation of Islam. Malcolm X in his Autobiography notes that, in his travels in the Middle East, many Muslims reacted with shock upon hearing about the doctrine of Yakub, which, while present in NOI theology, does not appear in mainstream Islam.[22] He rejected the story in his later statements, asserting that anyone of any race who intentionally deprives others of basic human rights is a "devil".[23] Warith Deen Mohammed, who took over the Nation of Islam after his father Elijah's death rejected it almost immediately, and tried to re-invent the Nation as a mainstream Sunni Islam movement.”

“Louis Farrakhan reinstated the original Nation of Islam, and has reasserted his belief in the literal truth of the story of Yakub. In a 1996 interview, Henry Louis Gates, Chairman of Harvard University's Afro-American Studies Department, asked him whether the story was a metaphor or literal. Farrakhan claimed that aspects of the story had been proven accurate by modern genetic science and insisted that "Personally, I believe that Yakub is not a mythical figure—he is a very real scientist. Not a big-head silly thing, as they would like to say".[24]”

[strong plank]

is it common for units to use different camo patterns in exercises?

I'm watching a vid of a recent US-SK exercise and seeing a whole mishmash of US army camo patterns

https://youtu.be/3NUTWPo4_Ws

like throw in one dude wearing 80s DBDUs and you'll have the whole set there

[manic latch]

B-21 CV doesn't look optimistic

Especially how sea salt with effect her ram coating. Which F35B even had early problems despite being designed in such role

Folding wings, more resistant ram, ability to use catapult and arresting gear

Just use your vassal ally states to positions those B-21s around

[frigid karma]

this isn't the 60s

American allies tend to have their own agendas

[manic latch]

Name a US ally that would deny to have US aircraft inside their US airbase

I would say none

[strong plank]

What having soft power gets you

[frigid karma]

Also picking weapons like aircraft is a really interesting argument

is poland a vassal state of SK? Japan, a vassal state of sweden?

[strong plank]

Isn’t this channel meant to generally steer clear of recent politics

or at least try to

[frigid karma]

surface level discussion is fine

just don't let it dominate the channel for a long period of time

[tough quail]

this ones pretty direct

[manic latch]

I dont think Poland has South Korean military base in their country no

Neither Japan has Sweden military base inside theirs

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1652814213121818625

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1944, Supreme Allied Commander of the Southeast Asia Command Admiral Louis Mountbatten addressed the crew of USS Saratoga at Ceylon. The Saratoga had earlier participated in Operation Cockpit in which ships from six navies attacked the Japanese-held island of Sabang.

Twitter · Apr 30, 2023, 11:16 PM

[shrewd pecan]

I don't really think

describing nations that choose to align themselves with one nation or bloc as vassals is accurate

especially considering how much multiple nations even within that bloc differ on various policy points

easy to go examples are French & German opposition to the invasion of Iraq

Hungarian opposition to multiple EU & US policy moves

or general disagreement between the EU and US on various trade policies/agreements

[runic prairie]

Kremlin, why does Poland explicitly want U.S. bases and personnel in their territory?

Why do the Baltic states feel much the same?

Why has Finland joined NATO?

I have a guess but I somehow don’t think it’s because of some shadowy U.S. conspiracy to control their governments.

[manic latch]

Sure there are opposition ideas in the group

But master is still US itself

They can't stop it, they won't try to stop it, they won't sanction it since they rely on it

Best thing they can do is saying "man this ain't cool"

But that's all really

Trade policies are always a shitshow in Europe especially when British pulled a Brexit anyway

But it didn't left Nato of course. Since its a Military group not trade

Tho as mentioned before. France always disliked how US is the big leader of Nato and tried to have more influence but. Well nothing changed since decades

Qwerty's link shows that France is aware how large US's influence on Europe is getting

I'm surprised they actually realised it after all these years

[manic latch]

Poland wants political power of course

More weapons/ more US bases etc can give Poland it's aim to overtake Germany's importance on Nato operations in Europe

Do mind these US base spamming isn't only against a specific country. Greece's new US bases was likely more focused on it's neighbor as a warning

However the irony is that neighbor still likely has around 50 B61 nuclear bombs of US

[shrewd pecan]

that has been a French policy stance

since the 60s

[manic latch]

Makes sense but

Seems they aren't successful

[shrewd pecan]

successful at what?

[manic latch]

Reducing US influence on Europe

[shrewd pecan]

EU has shown its ability repeatedly to take leadership on key issues from the US

EU countries in the most recent crisis have been vital in getting certain forms of aid to ukraine alongside leading the pack on sanctions

EU additionally has led its own interventions abroad with EU nations taking leadership in West Africa and Libya

on top of that within EU military procurement is growing more and more with Europe producing more and more world class platforms

[manic latch]

you sure there aren't more US vehicles coming to European armies?

[shrewd pecan]

there's been

as many new leopard orders

as Abrams orders

again its not the US and its vassal states its the US and its allies

there are common disagreements between allies

its not really like EU sanctions on the US aren't a thing either

[manic latch]

[shrewd pecan]

look at European export bans on drugs used in lethal injections here in the states

[grave ravine]

I mean the US facilitated European actions in Africa

[manic latch]

[grave ravine]

They didn't have the strategic airlift capability to do it on their own

[shrewd pecan]

its still European countries leading those efforts

even if its with US support

[manic latch]

Oh yeah I remember Libya

Needed US to do the main job

[shrewd pecan]

again we make fun of the Europeans for having to depend on the US for Libya

but at the same time Libya only happened because the EU lead the pack

NATO is a heavily interlocked alliance, nations are gonna specialize in the things they can offer best to the alliance, US can work at the needed scale to provide the necessary logistics backbone for the rest of the alliance

[manic latch]

True

Perhaps it's main advantage was relying in US for military defense and research/development while Europe spend more money on other branches of society

[shrewd pecan]

I mean you also have to look at who's gonna be providing the bulk of the military forces

if something kicks off in Europe

[manic latch]

Which did bite them back later as this Libya/ammo shortages/under maintenance equipment etc

[shrewd pecan]

any European fight is gonna be primarily European Forces until the US can mobilize

[manic latch]

Soviet Invasion of Europe ye

[shrewd pecan]

even in a modern sense

[manic latch]

West was going to try to hang on till US arrived

[shrewd pecan]

its Europe that provides the bulk of forces to the multinational bridges in Eastern Europe

[deep apex]

The ocean

[grave ravine]

But the multinational brigades would not be providing most of the combat potential in an Eastern European hot war, it would be the armies of said Eastern European countries themselves

[shrewd pecan]

yes

[manic latch]

• Europe would likely be a nuclear waste when US forces did arrive

[ivory ridge]

hurr durr spicy rock

[manic latch]

Tato was Cod Cold war nukes were a real thing or project

[spiral cedar]

https://ussslcca25.com/spedzero.htm

[shrewd pecan]

what the fuck is this formating

HTML is having a stroke

[manic latch]

🦅

[manic latch]

Always loved the Transformers Abrams

[ivory ridge]

[manic latch]

Tourner dans le vide, vide
Tourner dans le vide, vide
Tourner dans le vide, il me fait tourner

[manic latch]

Yo Tato won't this work

Manless turret on top of the turret with smaller cannons and ATGMs

While gunner operates main gun, commander can look around and use that manless turret

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/1100612222071353364/final.gif

[shrewd pecan]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/515583624083406848/1090727811251175545/well_fuck.gif

[runic prairie]

They lack the PAL codes. Those things are useless without U.S. permission.

[frigid karma]

Putting that gif to good use

[ivory ridge]

truly

[strong plank]

sort of but not really

the US' doctrine (and NATOs a few years later) was basically that help from the US most likely wouldn't arrive in time

hence why the US had so much shit stationed in western Europe

[grave ravine]

I mean for the first half of the cold war our strat was basically nuke Germany when the Soviets roll over our forces

It wasnt until like the 80s that the US actually thought they could stop the Soviets conventionally

[shrewd pecan]

I mean NATO's advantage in multiple aspects doesn't really materialize until the late 70s and early 80s

[runic prairie]

I mean REFORGER was meant to move something like a full division per day.

And that’s ignoring ferry flights for aircraft.

[strong plank]

yeah to work around those constraints

by only having to move the personnel to prepositioned stocks of equipment

[grave ravine]

Bell Labs and the microprocessor boom are in a very real way responsible for allowing NATO to match, and then surpass the USSR

[shrewd pecan]

the absolute technology advantage with everything from almost every NATO tank being equipped with thermal sights to Litening pods on the F-16 and early F-15Es

no one also really talks about the advantage the US had in attack helicopters with the AH-64D entering service a full decade before the Ka-50

[frigid karma]

ballistically launched F-35s

[runic prairie]

It’s a shame Assault Breaker got cancelled except for BLU-108.

[grave ravine]

And JSTARS

[runic prairie]

Isn’t S-500 supposed to be like THAAD in that its primary purpose is BMD?

[frigid karma]

yes

[runic prairie]

Christ that slipped my mind but yes.

[frigid karma]

perfect for killing ballistically launched F-35s from montana

[strong plank]

the unsung hero of the Cold War has to be Andy Marshall

it was his Office of Net Assessment that let the US lead the way in the Revolution in Military Affairs

[shrewd pecan]

the true loss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brilliant_Anti-Tank

[runic prairie]

BAT was the successor to the T-16 and T-22 missile programs and their warheads.

[autumn sorrel]

What is the capability of RN in carrier night operations early on in ww2?

[manic latch]

https://twitter.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1652777331226972160

AirPower 2.0 (MIL_STD) (@AirPowerNEW1)

USAF has chosen the @KOGDefence @RaytheonDefense Joint Strike Missile as a near-term solution for #F35 long range precision strike capability against maritime & land targets. F-35A can carry a pair of #JSM in its IWB. The service has requested funds to buy 48 JSM's in FY-2024.

Twitter · Apr 30, 2023, 8:49 PM

[desert agate]

2nd best missile in its class

Internal carrying is a massive plus tho

[cerulean ice]

If Poland when not in conflict might leverage some political power just by the virtue of having more American soldiers chilling about, then they will likely try to do so, but this very much is not the primary reason for wanting US bases or installations in the country.
And "Overtaking Germany's importance on NATO operations in Europe" is more of a consequence than a cause - because the only reason why is that even relevant is specifically because there is a country next to Poland that doesn't play be the rules that may result in causing a NATO operation. If that threat didn't exist, then whoever has the most importance is barely relevant for Poland because there is no risk of NATO operations happening in Europe in the first place.

Moving aside the current conflict that provides quite a bunch of validation and direct reasons for wanting NATO presence in the country. So speaking about the years prior I would say that the primary motivations behind wanting Americans on the land are historical - Polish national consciousness is fairly jaded because of what happened during WW2. Just having allies isn't a guarantee of those allies actually helping out properly when the shit does go down, they might just pull out WW2 France again. Thus having Americans in Poland is a way to ensure direct allied action - because there won't be idle sitting when their own nationals are on the line.

[manic latch]

Good explanation

Tho you should sadly delete it now since likely everyone from that discussion got a warning from politics

[cerulean ice]

if you got a warn for it then good

lmao

get rekt

[manic latch]

We all did likely

[cerulean ice]

as you can see I am mostly talking about previous years and historical basis for it

so

[manic latch]

True I guess

Atak-2's weapon load revealed

[cerulean ice]

maybe you wouldn't get warned so much if you didn't treat this channel as a #militarynews

I don't know about you, but I think that constantly bringing up the most modern military equipment or upgrades quite increases the likelihood of straying into related modern politics and conflicts

[autumn sorrel]

Domestic ATGM?

[manic latch]

Ah modern weaponry is fine

We just need to stay in the line of not touching modern politics with it

Yes they are heavily related but

We usually manage

Mostly

Since well this last discussion began from B-21

[manic latch]

Likely UMTAS

The UMTAS missile has fire and forget and fire and update infrared guidance with a tandem anti-tank warfare warhead. The laser guided version is marketed as the L-UMTAS.  İsmail Demir, the Head of Defence Industry of Turkiye stated that it can engage targets at 16 kilometers.

[manic latch]

You should join Drach or Wows server

They usually know the answer of these question

Got some good Teaboos there

[cerulean ice]

The short answer is probably that it was about as good as everyone else's - which means that it was bad

[delicate beacon]

Drach's people barely know anything about the RN

[manic latch]

[autumn sorrel]

[manic latch]

Turkey named their fighter

KAAN

From Khan?

Likely

[thorn trail]

So theoretically how deep can you detonate a 1MT nuke right below a supercarrier before the damage dealt to the ship is negligible

[chilly osprey]

Limited, but it existed, which meant it was leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else in that regard.

They couldn't exactly launch a strike whenever they wanted, but they could do things like dusk attacks if there was enough light.

Ex, see the raid on Taranto, or the evening strike that crippled Pola off Cape Matapan.

[ivory ridge]

Those pylons are sus af

Where the fuck did those at the extremities come from

They are nothing like the renders

[shrewd pecan]

You say that but I got warned yesterday for posting a video regarding a topic over a century old

[delicate beacon]

That's ALO moderation for you.

[shrewd pecan]

to think me posting a video on the history of Christian Science got me warned (its a American Christian Sect) yet mentioning the nation of Islam and its doctrine of yakub and how it lead to Malcom X getting assassinated didn't

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/UmarBzv/status/1652942178631528449

World Of History (@UmarBzv)

A multiple barrel firearm. The Pepperbox Pistol, 1800’s.

Likes

3541

Retweets

462

Twitter · May 1, 2023, 7:45 AM

[manic latch]

@autumn sorrel Phoneix already answered but got another answer from Drach server

It's quite hard to make a statement to answer that. The capability for the Fleet Air Arm to operate at night existed, and was something that had been deliberately developed during the 1930s. In 1939 the Naval Staff declared that "night operations of all types are perfectly feasible other than that of exceptional darkness or very low visibility. These factors operate primarily against air search and shadowing." Night launching and recovery techniques had been developed with an eye on reducing the number of lights required. Night time air attacks on warships in harbour had formed part of contingency planning for war with Italy during the Abyssinian crisis, and was practiced against Alexandria.

A key constraint was sea conditions - favourable seas were very important. In 1939 it was noted that "with the present deck lighting, however, night deck landing under bad weather conditions, especially when a pilot is tired after flying for some hours, is still to difficult for the average pilot without risk of damage to the aircraft."

A formation of aircraft could find a ship at night and keep it under surveillance, or even illuminated by flares, for extended periods. The techique was extravagant in aircraft use, but it was considered useful for locating an enemy fleet that did not have an aircraft carrier (e.g. Italy). Flares were also used to illuminate targets for surface gunnery and torpedo attacks.

However, night fighting was a very perishable skill that required high levels of training. Expansion in the late 1930s and contingencies such as the Spanish Civil War resulted in less ambitious night fighting exercises across the fleet than in previous years.

For the early war then, RN carriers could operate at night when required. Constrained by limited numbers of aircraft (and ships), yes, and without the sophistication of later years or the benefit of radar. But night operations were frequent nonetheless.

[grave ravine]

Kaan is a common Turkish name, meaning ruler, which is thought to have derived from the title Khan

[remote monolith]

meanwhile related to your username, there's Khaan

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/ronkainen7k15/status/1652688697014484992

Ronkainen (@ronkainen7k15)

Modern 105mm light/medium tanks

🇵🇭Sabrah: 30 metric tons

🇦🇷TAM 2C-A2: 31 metric tons

🇮🇩Harimau: 32 metric tons

🇺🇸MPF: 38 metric tons

Likes

631

Twitter · Apr 30, 2023, 2:57 PM

[strong plank]

wonder if the Bastogne on the gun is a hint at the name

or maybe they'll just stick with Griffin

[manic latch]

I'm sorry Phoenix

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/651823796453638144/1036911307661787156/uncaption.gif

[tough quail]

what in the name of fuck

[spring briar]

Very sensible design

[spiral cedar]

I wish you a very pleasant 2000 lb AP bomb

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1653172369115041794

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1951, eight Douglas AD Skyraiders from USS Princeton made a torpedo attack on the sluice gates of Hwachon Dam which was then controlled by North Korean and Chinese forces, scoring six hits. It was the last time that aerial torpedoes were used against a surface target.

Twitter · May 1, 2023, 10:59 PM

[solid mango]

[runic prairie]

Do not the Manjuu

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1653197170898616320

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1927, USS Colorado BB-45 ran aground on Diamond Reef near Governors Island, New York. After thousands of tons of ammunition and oil were removed from the Colorado, the combined efforts of four minesweepers and fourteen tugs finally freed the battleship 35 hours later.

Twitter · May 2, 2023, 12:38 AM

[solemn breach]

So I don’t think helicopters, tanks, and forms of ground warfare from the past like, 10-20 years is what people would consider history. Ontop of the fact that a modern tank or newly released attack helicopter has absolutely nothing to do with history, it also seems to very easily lead into political topics and discussions about things that have happened within the past year. As a reminder, the channels name is #history. The Cold War, Vietnam, world wars, Renaissance stuff etc. Not things/events from recent years

So from here on, this channel isn’t for new age tanks, APC’s, helicopters, or any topic that has absolutely nothing to do with neither boats, nor actual history. Ship related discussions are fine, as discussion of a new age carrier can easily involve older carriers.

Coming in here to see a wall of modern era tanks and helicopters with discussions about NATO and nothing at all related to history is not what this channel is for.

[strong plank]

M1 CATTB (hula skirt variant)

I assume it’s an anti-mine measure?

or some sort of track protection?

[autumn sorrel]

I think track protection, anti mine measures are normally mounted in front of the tank

[tough quail]

hello flap friend

[strong plank]

That’s true, I’m not sure why my brain jumped to mines

[tough quail]

may i join you on this fine evening

[strong plank]

That one’s showing some ankle isn’t it

[tribal mortar]

I have a question, so I have screenshots on a game called DomiNations and they more focused on the army aspect of humanity's military, they have history describing them where would they be put

That's one of them

[autumn sorrel]

I am not really verse in Byzantine navy so much but do their ship have this kind of ramp?

[autumn sorrel]

Ah, domination, haven’t play that in ages

[tough quail]

saucy slavs

[strong plank]

My gut wants to say no but I don’t really know anything about ships from that era

[tribal mortar]

They're adding the Drone age

[strong plank]

methinks the waterproofing would be a little bit of a pain there

[autumn sorrel]

I recognize the artist, let’s just say, his illustrations is very liberal on historical accuracy

[strong plank]

Yeah I was about to say it seems like it’s trying to invoke the ww2 transport look

[autumn sorrel]

I mostly discarded something like this as fantasy but I do recall reading about Byzantium navy capable of transporting army and quickly disembark them so I am not sure about this

Maybe it is a very loose depiction of some paragraphs but bc it is Byzantium so I leave out a chance that they actually design and build something like this.

[solemn breach]

I forgot to pin that, I noticed.

[shrewd pecan]

so by 10-20 years are you throwing in everything from the GWOT and other major historical events in the last 20 years out of the picture

[solemn breach]

I don’t think anyone wants to come here to read about military ground equipment from the past 10-20 years. No one’s here to read about a tank used in Afghanistan. In fact most of them would be here for ship history and we’re just giving you the allowance of other forms of history

[shrewd pecan]

that is like

60% of the people who use this channel who want to discuss things like procurement and more recent events within the last 10-20 years

[solemn breach]

Well this channel is for history. Not tanks and attack helicopters from the past decade.

[shrewd pecan]

a decade is a large amount of time

I can get the no no's on discussions with the war in Ukraine or issues over the Taiwan strait

but it seems rather extreme to fully cut off a entire decades worth of historical events and notable military developments from the realm of discussion

would be a easy compromise to just move any talk about more recent procurement to a thread

[remote monolith]

that's definitely a problematic design, for one wouldn't seawater leak through the opening

plus I don't think the way ships were constructed during that time allows an opening like that to be cut directly in the hull

[grave ravine]

I mean heck you can flat out see that in the illustration, planks just end where it opens up

[solemn breach]

I’ll take that trade, on the condition it remains about history and hardware from the past and not about hardware that recently came out. This will be a thread entirely about military hardware that doesn’t fit in with the main point of this topic, being historical topics such as like Korea/Vietnam and earlier.

Stuff like desert storm and Iraq etc, not stuff about like the recent 5 years. This is mostly to stop any possible political topic because it’s been noted that recent military hardware just can’t help itself by making people want to discuss the war they’re involved in

[grave ravine]

@shrewd pecan There are other discord servers more amenable to talking about modern kit if you want to join them, I'd recommend Drach's server

[remote monolith]

yeah which is, odd? Cause it looks like a huge compromise to structural integrity

[shrewd pecan]

I'm in a few

I just don't want to see the discussions we have here limited by a hard time limit

[eternal veldt]

Don't worry, just go back to bashing Bismarck

I'm sure that is conducive

[remote monolith]

cause from what I can tell shipbuilding before the 14th century looked like this

the left side

[grave ravine]

Yeah it appears the picture is some extreme artistic license about what were probably just barges with horses on them

[remote monolith]

so yeah, prolly artistic license

[solemn breach]

The primary discussion point for this channel has always been boat history of any definition first, followed by war history that contains “retro” stuff (hard to describe, it’s late. Anything that’s like Vietnam or earlier is what history should classify as) and it’s been a lot of very modern non-boat related military gear which tends to all too often go to political leaning discussion. So I’ll make you guys a thread for newer hardware

[eternal veldt]

Or maybe yet, let's discuss how Texas flooded herself

Very interesting topics

[shrewd pecan]

thread for newer hardware/procurement

[grave ravine]

AFAIK Clinker and Carvel were both Northern European building styles, and the Mediterranean built ships using mortise and tenon mainly

[solemn breach]

Newer era military hardware

It says in the thread but I’ll say it here too. I won’t hesitate to lock the thread if the political bits can’t be contained. This thread is for discussion of newer hardware and the engagements they’ve been involved in. It is not for discussion of the climate of the war they’re in. And try to keep it newer, not the newest. Please don’t disappoint.
For pin purposes, thread is above.

[grave ravine]

Though it looks like the Byzantines started to use Carvel built galleys in like the 700s or 800s

[remote monolith]

but even mortis and tenon are interlocked joints right? I still don't see the image working even with that system

[grave ravine]

Oh yeah it doesn't work no matter how you assume they built it, you aren't building a ship with a bow ramp unless its like a modern steel barge

[autumn sorrel]

So just barges with horse on it

[grave ravine]

Yeah IRL thats what they were

[desert agate]

how utterly ridiculous
if this channel is for naval history then name it naval history
this discussion has occurred before and every time it was determined that this silly desire by the moderation team to enforce some frankly entirely subjective restriction on this channel does nothing but harm the channel
there are not enough members, or consistent enough discussion in this channel to justify this sort of decision, the channel description itself was modified some time ago to reflect that this channel is not purely naval history and regularly discusses more modern equipment, provided that discussion doesnt stray into discussion of the political context that equipment exists in

[grave ravine]

AFAIK they had accommodations for horses, but at the end of the day they are barges with horses on them

[desert agate]

the thread is in my opinion entirely redundant and will die

[remote monolith]

yea, they just uses cranes to lift up the horses into the barge

also I imagine horse barges gonna be super fucking smelly at least

[solemn breach]

If it does it does. But so will topics involving not-history in this channel. At the end of the day no matter how you wanna put it, a newly released helicopter isn’t history at all

[remote monolith]

cause yknow

horseshit

[autumn sorrel]

I am more familiar with cowshit but I can imagine

[desert agate]

okay, but what about a 40 year old tank?

the M1 Abrams entered service in the early 80s

one of the most modern and relevant systems on the modern battlefield

is that history?

[solemn breach]

That’s history.

[eternal veldt]

Excrement is already smelly

[solemn breach]

It’s from a historical moment in time

[eternal veldt]

Now imagine getting humans splattered inside

Must be fun.

[desert agate]

i appreciate that you're not outright banning discussion of modern equipment, but i think there is a better way of approaching this issue, i'll leave it at that and i doubt my words will have any further weight in this discussion

[solemn breach]

I’m open to whatever idea you may have. I literally just compromised on a thread lol

[remote monolith]

also related to last night

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaan

Khaan

which was named after the Mongol Khans

[autumn sorrel]

Temur

[desert agate]

IMO, given that there's only about a half dozen active users in this channel, give or take a few, a thread compartmentalises an already slow-ish channel that once every few days has an explosion of activity, which I feel will see the thread either forgotten about in a few weeks as everyone returns to the status quo until someone remembers it exists and starts handing out warnings or it'll just slow things down
reframing the channel itself from purely historical discussion meanwhile allows for discussion of more recent equipment while also maintaining the historical core of the channel
most of the active members have been here for years and while recent events have put some strain on matters and heavily increased discussion of modern equipment, I don't think that's the fault of the long time users
A new person joining the channel asking a question about modern equipment (the first message in the channel in a few hours) only to be immediately directed to a thread to have their question answered by the exact same person feels somewhat redundant and all things considered wouldn't be particularly uncommon

[shrewd pecan]

generally I also have some concerns about what exactly is gonna end up being considered "history" and "political"

considering my most recent warn that I still can't discern what exactly was considered political beyond whoever issued the warning not reading into any context

[desert agate]

i think we can all agree that that'll remain a subjective line but so long as we can avoid going into opinion and stick as close to fact as reasonably possible, and also not discuss the European event there's no issue

[remote monolith]

reject Europe entirely

[runic prairie]

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/bunn_tech_of_ballastic_missle_reentry_vehicles.pdf

Some Ballistic Missile Reentry vehicle stuff.

[eternal veldt]

What are you, Mongolian?

Wanted to say Ottoman, but that is Europe

[desert agate]

turks are typing

[remote monolith]

worse, Southeast Asian

[desert agate]

oh god oh fuck oh shit

[solemn breach]

I mean I can see the lack of interaction possibly causing a strain on people actually being able to talk, but I personally feel like people won’t want to come to a history channel that’s talking primarily about equipment that was released in the past few years. While I do understand the concerns of the thread scenario, let’s give it a shot for a bit. If it indeed turns out the way you feel it may, then we’ll back peddle and I’ll just hang out here more often and stare at all of you menacingly until you get the point. Sound good?

Consider it a trial

[desert agate]

I'd also note that political issues are somewhat rare in the channel, and the most problem users have already been removed from the channel, pretty much everyone else here knows the status quo and sticks to it

[grave ravine]

I mean most of Turkey is in Asia

[solemn breach]

Well, sure then. Let’s try it out the other way first. I’m not ignorant to the slower state of this channel, and very valid concerns (and I have a tree being cut down that’s leaning towards my house in 5 hours so I could use the good karma)

[tribal mortar]

What’s going on here?

Oh look a mod

[solemn breach]

I’ll be hanging out here a lot more. You guys can ask Al lore, I don’t really care about the cliques, but the channel following it’s topic. So please don’t let me down here.

[desert agate]

always happy to have more people involved in discussion

[solemn breach]

I doubt I’d be involved, I personally don’t care for most history if it’s not Japanese or ancient Roman/Greek, and especially not if it involves primarily war

[tribal mortar]

Tell me about that fancy Admiralty Fire Control table.

[grave ravine]

Ford Mk1 is better lol

[tribal mortar]

The what?

[grave ravine]

The Superior system

[runic prairie]

@spring briar

IDK if you’re also looking at reentry vehicles (they’re kinda like shells I guess) but here’s some interesting concepts I’ve seen.

[grave ravine]

The Ford Mk1 was the American mechanical computer used in their FCS systems in WW2, and it is a true technological marvel

[tribal mortar]

Looks complicated as hell

[thorn trail]

Hold on. How small of a caliber of gun/cannon can you go to penetrate 6in of BB armor

[desert agate]

anyway here's the 39th battalion Australian Militia Forces in September 1942, after 5 months of constant fighting up and down the Kokoda track, being constantly undersupplied, underequipped and undermanned

[grave ravine]

I mean it is more complicated than the AFCT, but not a ton more complicated

[tribal mortar]

They still look in good shape after 5 months of fighting

[desert agate]

some of these men walked so much that when they took their boots off after 5 months, the soles of their feet came off with them

[tribal mortar]

Ah so it’s an easy to use Magic Tablet compared to the Apple. Got it

[grave ravine]

But the Mk1 paired with the Mk37/38 gun directors gave American warships an unprecedented hit rate and ability to fire while maneuvering

[tribal mortar]

[desert agate]

and some men even had holes straight through their feet

[runic prairie]

Also relevant flight path for Pershing II (and likely DF-21 since it was heavily inspired by the Pershing II) missile.

[grave ravine]

They are effectively automated systems, you basically just input the target's bearing and speed, as well as things like atmospheric conditions, trained the director on the target, and it automatically trained the guns

[desert agate]

almost all of them are suffering from dysentery, exhaustion, untreated wounds and various post-traumatic stress conditions

[tribal mortar]

[desert agate]

dysentery was such a constant issue that some men didn't bother digging latrines and just cut holes in their pants

[tribal mortar]

That’s brutal

[dapper parcel]

welcome to the jungle

[desert agate]

arguably some of the most brutal fighting of the war

[remote monolith]

still weeping from the lack of mesozoic fossils from SEA. Then again considering the area was almost completely submerged until after the Cretaceous, alas its to be expected

[shrewd pecan]

have your nightly defense marketing materials

[desert agate]

and they weren't even professional soldiers

[remote monolith]

even Australia get its share of dinosaurs

[dapper parcel]

At least they didn't get malaria
Or more likely those who did didn't survive in the first place

[runic prairie]

What kind of shell are you using, how long is your gun, is it rifled or smoothbore, what kind of powder load are we talking?

Because with a modern gun you could probably do this with 30-50mm with APFSDS, depending on design of course.

[desert agate]

they were militiamen who were either too young, too old, or had a medical condition that prevented them from joining the actual army

[remote monolith]

because Australia and Antarctica were part of Gondwana

so they get cool stuff

[tribal mortar]

So the rejects?

[thorn trail]

Must be a naval gun so tank cannon is a no

[desert agate]

thats how they were considered, yes

[grave ravine]

Ew Gripen

[thorn trail]

Just wondering how small you can go to penetrate 6in head on

[remote monolith]

plus surprise surprise jungles sucks ass to preserve fossils because wet environment

[desert agate]

2AIF had some strict requirements on height, foot shape and general health

[grave ravine]

F-20 is a cool plane but one that was kinda doomed to failure

[shrewd pecan]

was surprised to see it

[desert agate]

the AMF were not considered very good soldiers, in fact the 39th was, before the campaign, rated as the worst unit in the entire army

but they held their own in combat extremely well

[shrewd pecan]

honestly surprised how long the F-20 went on considering it was in direct competition with the Falcon

[desert agate]

especially given the context of the campaign they fought

[grave ravine]

It depends in large part on what kind of post penetration effect you want, like there were plenty of guns in the 76mm range in WW2 that could easily punch through 6in of armor, but would do nothing to a battleship sized target

And modern day things like 40mm cannons can punch through 6in of armor using darts

[tribal mortar]

I thought this was history

[remote monolith]

Australia gets robust animals like these

while SEA got indeterminate vertebrates

who doesn't get valid names even after decades

[spiral cedar]

https://eugeneleeslover.com/ENGINEERING/OP1064/OP1064_Addendum_1.pdf
The manual for the Ford Mk 1 can be found here

[grave ravine]

I mean thats kinda the thing, F-20 was not designed to be in competition with F-16, since originally the Carter administration blocked export of F-16, but as soon as they allowed export of higher end systems everyone went for the F-16

[maiden citrus]

I detect a saltosaur and was alerted

[tribal mortar]

It says restricted

I can’t read too SEKRIT dokumintz

[shrewd pecan]

I mean it managed to last into 86

[remote monolith]

the mama yearns for her Saltasaurid child

[spiral cedar]

Shouldn't be restricted. Perhaps your internet is restricted?

[maiden citrus]

large, chonky and armored? perfection

[grave ravine]

Really only because they were still blocking sale of F-16 to Taiwan

[tribal mortar]

No, the PDF says “RESTRICTED” at the first page

[spiral cedar]

Ohh

[shrewd pecan]

fair

[spiral cedar]

[dapper parcel]

You probably still need to limit the choice somehow
Projectiles working in "momentum regime" (like most naval guns were) need about the same diameter as its projected penetration value, while projectiles working in "energy regime" can be much smaller and only need to be comparable in length

[runic prairie]

What time range? Because there are 35mm and 40mm guns mounted on modern ships which could theoretically do it (provided the right ammo) dependent on range and angle.

[thorn trail]

at max 1945

[grave ravine]

I mean this could probably do it, but again while they can pen 6in of armor with APCR, they aren't doing crap to a warship of any size

BTW those are T-34 turrets on a boat

[cinder escarp]

I was going to also ask for size of hole, yes.

If you want to simply poke a hole, there are some nutty high MV AT guns that will do it just fine.

[runic prairie]

Also HEAT shells did exist, though were in their infancy. A 2 pounder AT gun (about 40mm) with a squeeze bore or APDS might get close though.

[grave ravine]

It was restricted in 1951, but AFAIK the last ships to use the Ford Mk1 in service were the Iowas, and by then nothing was secret or special about it

And even the Iowas are long out of service

[tribal mortar]

https://youtu.be/mngwJh_hS2k

[cinder escarp]

If you made proper APCBC-HE shells for it, the IJN 10cm AA gun would easily do the 6" requirement.

[remote monolith]

also coming from the southern continents are these freaks lovingly called Abelisaurid

[cinder escarp]

And 100mm is about as small as you can get while doing any notable damage to a cruiser.

[remote monolith]

for whatever reason these blokes displaced every other theropod south of the equator and survived up until the mass extinction

they are also super ugly when compared to other types

[dapper parcel]

You know what, the 8cm was actually better at that

[grave ravine]

Yeah, the 4in range is probably the smallest gun that can actually do something to a cruiser sized target beyond messing up the upperworks

[thorn trail]

It still says restricted because afaik nobody bothered to remove that. Think it's declassified already because I also see it's in here as well
https://maritime.org/doc/computermk1/index.php

[cinder escarp]

2pdr, no. 6pdr - with APDS, yes. But you'll do nothing to the ship unless you have a god roll for where you hit.

[thorn trail]

Also says Restricted on the bottom right

[runic prairie]

You’re probably right.

[cinder escarp]

It's long past the date of auto-declassification for it, the markings are pointless.

The smallest gun I can think of that could do it without subcaliber rounds would be the 17pdr... but unfortunately being Bri'ishit only comes with sold APCBC with no charge at all. And the 3" hole you make isn't going to do much.

[grave ravine]

I mean thats true of all the AT guns that we are talking about

Like if you want to actually do damage, you use a bigger shell

[cinder escarp]

Eh, a 10cm / 105mm gun is enough to damage cruisers. They were common secondaries for a reason.

[spiral cedar]

10cm guns have a very poor track record against cruisers of the WWII era

[grave ravine]

Yeah the 4in range seems to be the smallest guns that could reasonably do damage to warships

And even so, you want larger weapons cuz they can do more damage

[runic prairie]

Post-penetration effects are far more important than simple penetration.

For example: anti-ship shaped charges (found on P-15 and AS-4/6) are designed to create more of a slug rather than jet so as to create large amounts of fragments inside.

They could have penetrations on the order of a several meters but that’s just silly so they redesign the warheads for post-pen effects.

[grave ravine]

Also here is the manual for the Mk37 GFCS that hooks up to the Ford Mk1 if anyone is interested https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/Ordnance/FCS-Mark37/index.html

[solemn breach]

@shrewd pecan sorry I thought closing that thread would mean it wouldn’t be openable and despite my role having manage thread permissions for some reason I didn’t have them here so couldn’t delete it until now

[grave ravine]

Yeah, its also why you see very high filler to mass ratios in warship shells compared to tank shells

[cinder escarp]

Unless you are say... in a bit of a pickle and use your naval gun unmodified with naval ammo against tanks.

[cinder escarp]

tfw the ideal AT round is clearly 130mm SAP

[dapper parcel]

There's also expectation that tank shell will encounter proportionally more hardened steel than ship shell, hence the more robust construction

[runic prairie]

Here’s an example of a Houthis C-802 attack on a UAE operated vessel.

I’ll see if I can find an image of a P-15 warhead specifically.

[cinder escarp]

I know the P-15. It's a giant HEDP charge behind the fuel tanks.

Not as hilarious as the Sakura-Dan, though.

[shrewd pecan]

I wonder

ok we can still create our own threads

[solemn breach]

Yeah, I think tea gave you guys that permission when the channel opened

[shrewd pecan]

anyway now to make my archive of promotional materials

[eternal veldt]

Oh, right. Speaking of promotion, someone told me to make an R-class identification chart a wee bit earlier.

[shrewd pecan]

Retro Promotional Materials

[eternal veldt]

Too bad I don't have the energy to do it.

[grave ravine]

It turns out the thing San Shiki was actually pretty useful for was bombarding unhardened targets

Like they utterly wrecked the planes at Henderson Field in The Bombardment

[cinder escarp]

I was talking more about the Ki-167 Sakura-Dan.

As far as I know, the largest HEAT warhead ever made.

[runic prairie]

Bruh

[dapper parcel]

There has to be upper limit on how large EFP could be conceivably made
No way the jet won't separate during formation

[autumn sorrel]

That's some big ass kamikaze

[thorn trail]

Hold on

That entire plane is a HEAT charge?!?!

What

That entire plane is basically a HEAT round

[runic prairie]

Depends on material and precision of firing mechanism.

Thickness of liner, thickness of explosive too.

[dapper parcel]

You know it's going to be fun when the Japanese label something "special"

[cinder escarp]

The charge is 1500mm in diameter with a weight of 3 tonnes.

[dapper parcel]

yeah, no way it's using bridgewire fuze...

[cinder escarp]

6 of those were built, 3 deployed late in Okinawa.

[runic prairie]

I don’t see a reason you couldn’t conceivably scale it up to say a stadium sized EFP.

Granted something like that is blasting Star Destroyers in orbit and your wiring looks more like “The Gadget” rather than an RPG round but there’s no real reason to not be able to do it.

[dapper parcel]

with larger size you need explosive train, there's limit on explosion you can control with a single fuze

[thorn trail]

Turn a ww2 destroyer into a massive HEAT round and charged at the enemy ala Glowworm

wonder how effective would that be (assuming the enemy BB doesn't destroy the destroyer before it hits)

[dapper parcel]

at that scale the explosive's brisance will take a lot more effect

[thorn trail]

brisance?

[runic prairie]

Use something like a nuclear setup.

[dapper parcel]

detonation velocity

[thorn trail]

Oh

[eternal veldt]

just use an ohka

[dapper parcel]

yeah, that require bridgewire detonator
and multiple homogenous but consistently slightly different explosives, which japanese weren't known to excel at

[runic prairie]

I was just saying a massive EFP can be theoretically done.

Whether late war Japan could do it is a question with the answer usually being “no”.

Regardless of what is being asked.

[dapper parcel]

Tbf I still not convinced EFP can be scaled in both way indefinitely

[cinder escarp]

Finally dug up the design

[runic prairie]

For the -167?

[cinder escarp]

The bomb, yes.

It's a self-forging shaped charge.

[dapper parcel]

Conventional wisdom feels like the jet should tend to separate past certain size, but then again fluid dynamics are weird

[runic prairie]

It’s probably possible but the question is never if it is possible rather, is it practical? And the answer to that is a pretty definitive “no”.

[runic prairie]

“Baka”

[cinder escarp]

The late plans for jet powered Okhas were certainly interesting.

[runic prairie]

Wish.com AS-1 Komet.

[cinder escarp]

More capable guidance system though!

[runic prairie]

It has that advantage, I’ll give it that.

[eternal veldt]

@desert agate

[thorn trail]

What ship?

[eternal veldt]

why, the one and only thing spon simps for

[autumn sorrel]

Nagato?

[eternal veldt]

Look at Spon's name that I pinged and try again.

[solid mango]

Nagato do be havin them 356s

[eternal veldt]

Now, be nice

Just that this image does throw people off

We're wired to high pagoda = fuso afterall

[manic latch]

Spon wouldn't fall that low

[alpine onyx]

Nagato isn't a low bar, she be nice even if the refits made her... weird

[eternal veldt]

Nugget's a hell of a looker even if she looks weird

Now, if you're bored, go on and have a round of "what's the difference"

but wait, it gets worse!

[desert agate]

i love

[manic latch]

Not the ship

But the shipgirl

[chilly osprey]

My one area of ship spotting expertise is the Zara-class

Give me a shot of a Zara and provided it's a high enough quality image to make out the details I can always tell you which it is.

Anything else, I'm crap at

[eternal veldt]

alright, go for it, phoenix

[manic latch]

🍿

[desert agate]

you gotta use the thread now mate

or you'll get bonked

[subtle prawn]

The old thread was deleted

Unless you want me to re-establish it…

[manic latch]

I love how

The moment a red mod visits this place they ban something that's done for years

[eternal veldt]

Weird flex, but okay

[supple sandal]

He who think the pen is not mighty will be relieved by a pen

[chilly osprey]

Looks like Gorizia?

[delicate beacon]

That's implying that he would think.

[eternal veldt]

Yeap. As expected of you. 😄

[chilly osprey]

😄

[solid mango]

Bow

Uhh light?

[eternal veldt]

not just that. 😛

[solid mango]

I sais da bow

[eternal veldt]

Even more than just that oo.

[solid mango]

Im pretty sure I drew a Nagato and Mutsu before, I forgor where it is in my storag

[solid mango]

Storag of Cleves, unsorted between ship and shipgirls

[eternal veldt]

it gets somewhat easier after their massive reconstructions

[solid mango]

IC noted on da mast shape

Ehh gud enuf for a quick glance look

Oh hey some difference on the hull's...

Uhh

Sides

[ivory ridge]

Oh come on not this channel too

Fucking hell

[delicate beacon]

What's wrong unde?

[tough quail]

you play with fire sang

[manic latch]

Ayay

Kotlin class's missile refit

[tough quail]

how much bow you want sir

yes

[manic latch]

Mooore

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1653415866585710592

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1982, HMS Conqueror became the first nuclear-powered submarine to sink an enemy vessel when it torpedoed the ARA General Belgrano during the Falklands War. The General Belgrano was formerly the USS Phoenix (CL-46) which had survived the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Twitter · May 2, 2023, 3:07 PM

[ivory ridge]

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/oscar198o/status/1652779458183479299

ArmaduraXXI💯🇪🇦 (@oscar198o)

M-60A3 Marksman

Twitter · Apr 30, 2023, 8:58 PM

[lavish fable]

Rip Phoenix

[spring briar]

I live

[ivory ridge]

for now

[spring briar]

ouchie

• Oslyabya getting hit in its lightly armoured waterline -

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/AlexLuck9/status/1653111582107525121
https://twitter.com/D__Mitch/status/1653330696553787392

Alex Luck (@AlexLuck9)

The revised design notably changes the position of the Mk 41 VLS, giving more distance to the RAM. I would like to think that implies a growth reserve, though it would seem pretty tight and perhaps improbable given safety requirements

Likes

167

Twitter · May 1, 2023, 6:58 PM

Naval Analyses (@D__Mitch)

Regarding the ASW capabilities of #F126, there will be only two containerised VDS equipment for all four ships (4 vessels will share 2 VDS) which will be accommodated at the flex deck of the stern. The ships also are FFBNW a HMS.

Twitter · May 2, 2023, 9:28 AM

[wintry moat]

This apart of the Battle of Tsushima?

[manic latch]

Yes

Bradley Blazer

AA proposal

[spring briar]

yep

[wintry moat]

Cool

Ruski battleships sent to the Mile down club

Was it all of the Boridino’s that sunk?

[spring briar]

no

not all Borodino's sank

[manic latch]

No

[spring briar]

Orel (Eagle) survived

[manic latch]

One is captured one is finished later

[wintry moat]

Ok

[spring briar]

Slava was finished later

[wintry moat]

Thanks for answers

I've got another slightly stupid question

Has any ship with like 6 inch guns plus been hit so hard its turrets were just punched off

[spring briar]

HMS Monmouth's 6" turret blew off its mounting when hit by 210mm shells from Scharnhorst and/or Gneisenau at Coronel

[manic latch]

There were reports Zara class had turrets blown off during a battle

Phoenix may know it better

[wintry moat]

was Monmouth a Proper warship of Auxillary cruiser?

[manic latch]

Armored cruiser

[wintry moat]

I know craddoc didn't have the greatest force during Von Spee’s fight

[manic latch]

She was one of the ships that took her whole crew down

[wintry moat]

Oh

Just Fwoosh and gone?

[manic latch]

Since bad seas also prevent rescue search

[wintry moat]

Ah

Damn

[spring briar]

@chilly osprey

didn't the Dandolo also have its guns swapped for newer and smaller ones?

[chilly osprey]

Yeah, Dandolo swapped them for four 254/40 (and 7x 152/40), in a refit that started in 1895 and ended in 1898.

[spring briar]

thought so

[chilly osprey]

What's the chart measuring? Service lives of ironclads with the >400mm guns?

[spring briar]

yes

[chilly osprey]

Lot of missing ships then...

[spring briar]

but it's wrong since it's ignoring the Italian gun swaps

and that

where Benbow

[chilly osprey]

Italia, Lepanto, Ruggiero di Lauria, Francesco Morosini, Andrea Doria...

[spring briar]

furieux

[spring briar]

yeah those too

hol up

wtf is this

[chilly osprey]

Ehhh?

[spring briar]

good lord

TIL France had an artificial island built off the côte d'azur to test torpedoes

@delicate beacon next french UR

[delicate beacon]

[spring briar]

@delicate beacon

[delicate beacon]

smol fren

[spring briar]

Smol glasharde fren

[manic latch]

I want to make best Frankenstein destroyer ever with using technology of 40-45

So my current list is

3x2 5inch/38
1x5 610mm torpedo launcher
4x4 40mm Bofors
5x2 20mm Oerlikon

Power should be 70-80k hp

Maybe I should increase torps to 10

French engines?

[spring briar]

Oxygen torps are not safe

[delicate beacon]

4x4 40mm Bofors?

[manic latch]

Gearing has 2 x4 so

This girl is kinda larger

Could be Project 56 Kotlin class style layout. Since she has 4x4 45mm

[ivory ridge]

remove the oerlikons and the torps and you made the rebuilt capitani romani

[grave ravine]

Yeah I would go with 10 standard 21in torpedoes over the oxytorps

[manic latch]

Sometimes it's good to have all or nothing on firepower

[manic latch]

What about

6 28 in torps

Standard

[runic prairie]

3”/50 automatics, worked on in 44-45, were determined to be several times more effective than 40mm.

[manic latch]

Don't trust their reliability in those years tbh

Didn't they enter service in like

1948?

Yeah first prototype was ready for test fires in 1 September 1945

Delivered in quantity by 1948

If war didn't ended maybe it would be 1946

[delicate beacon]

[manic latch]

Dutch Tashkent

[grave ravine]

I don't think anyone did 28in torpedoes in WW2

[manic latch]

Japanese triple 720mm only stayed as design true

[grave ravine]

https://news.usni.org/2023/05/02/aircraft-carrier-uss-gerald-r-ford-departs-norfolk-for-worldwide-deployment

[chilly osprey]

Why do you want such large torpedoes?

Frankly I'd just pick the French 550mm torpedoes, replace their washeads with Torpex, and call it a day

[subtle prawn]

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/jatm-start-production-collaborative-combat-aircraft/

[strong plank]

That’s some Ace Combat cover art right there

[autumn sorrel]

No FCS or radar?

[manic latch]

Ah

[manic latch]

Kuz

[shrewd pecan]

ok I flooded my thread with enough promotional materials

I am gonna throw this one here since it's a entire brochure on the harpoon

[remote monolith]

seriously

tf is the Spinosaurus's deal

[subtle prawn]

https://www.flightglobal.com/lockheeds-30-aircraft-tr-x-plan-priced-at-38-billion/120015.article

[spring briar]

Why

[autumn sorrel]

Bc we don't have a time machine to see what tf it look like so everyone keep screaming about their idea of how it look and live

[remote monolith]

even compared to other dinosaurs its insanely baffling

there's a paper every year that counters the previous year's conclusion

further confounded by the massive dearth of fossils pertaining to the species while the T. rex has over a hundred discovered specimens

[maiden citrus]

Spinosaurus is a figment of imagination

It doesn’t actually exist they are trying to trick us

[autumn sorrel]

Imagine it turn into a massive hoax by alien

Remind me of "All tomorrow", human find dino fossil that defy logic

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betsy_Ross

Supposed creator of US flag

Mrs. Ross convinced George Washington to change the shape of the stars in a sketch of a flag he showed her from six-pointed to five-pointed by demonstrating that it was easier and speedier to cut the latter.  However, there is no archival evidence or other recorded verbal tradition to substantiate this story of the first U.S. flag.

[remote monolith]

there is actually a view that most of the recently discovered sailed Spinosaurids after Spinosaurus are just different Spinosaurus species

that we couldn't identify because their fossils are so fucking bad in shape

this thing for example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalaia

we only know this much from the head

[autumn sorrel]

That's a lot of speculation

[remote monolith]

metric shitton

[spring briar]

Inb4 spinosauridae will be deleted

[manic latch]

Soyuzosaur

[delicate beacon]

🕷️ osaurus

[manic latch]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_of_Dinosaurs

The story follows the lives of dinosaurs as they fall in love and have children, their eggs hatched by the hot sun as their parents look on. As the weather begins to cool, the shells begin to thicken, refusing to let the dinosaur babies leave, eventually resulting in their extinction

The film is generally interpreted as a subversive commentary on the dangers of the authoritarian state

[spring briar]

Russia moment

[manic latch]

Soviet cartoons carry their own history ye

Like ww2 Warner

[spring briar]

[delicate beacon]

What weight symbol is that

it reminds me of Delftsche Ponden

[spring briar]

Dunno

[grave ravine]

The fact that one of the most complete fossils got blown up probably doesn't help either

[remote monolith]

mm, plenty of fossils were destroyed in the funny fight 2 electric boogaloo

the same destruction that robbed us of Spinosaurus robbed us also of a lot of others, like Carcharodontosaurus

admittedly not even the bombed specimen was complete

it was by all accounts a rather spotty specimen, but still better than what we have now

[quick shard]

this reminds me of peking

[spring briar]

How so

[autumn sorrel]

A bit of relaxing, anyone want to try this? This is a tradition in PAVN https://twitter.com/annquann/status/1653706015412744192?s=46&t=VmBPf9V3wtTffwschA-ygw

Lee Ann Quann (@AnnQuann)

"So I heard you guys could use more toys"

"Relax, bro. We will get to those eventually. Now, let's chilllll..."

Twitter · May 3, 2023, 10:20 AM

[remote monolith]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWlmzl2jCNs

giraffe bird vs chonk hank

[delicate beacon]

David Attenborough

[remote monolith]

bless the man

at his 90s but still taking on huge projects like these

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/CanadianForces/status/1653766734057283595

Canadian Armed Forces (@CanadianForces)

Previously buried as an unknown soldier from the First World War, the remains of Corporal Frederick Percival “Percy” Bousfield have been identified through the Canadian Armed Forces Casualty Identification Program. 1/6

Likes

272

Twitter · May 3, 2023, 2:21 PM

[desert agate]

https://twitter.com/DefenceAust/status/1653599520117096449?s=20

Defence Australia (@DefenceAust)

Welcome home #HMASPerth! ⚓ Family and friends waved from the wharf last week, to welcome loved ones after three months away protecting Australia’s maritime interests. ❤️

📖 https://t.co/ddxscp0Vjj #YourADF #AusNavy

Twitter · May 3, 2023, 3:17 AM

[ocean yacht]

Did the Akagi commit any warcrimes?

Well, besides Pearl Harbor

[spring briar]

@spiral cedar

[spiral cedar]

This seems like a bad idea

[spring briar]

Find the early USN APC

[spiral cedar]

Middle

[spring briar]

Well done

[grave ravine]

Pearl Harbor is not technically a warcrime, though attacking a major naval anchorage with little warning wont win you friends

Warships generally don't get as many opportunities to commit warcrimes, and I don't know of any specific ones the crew of Akagi committed

The IJN was known to abuse and execute American sailors and airmen they fished out of the water, but typically it would be the escorts doing that, not the carriers

[delicate beacon]

Warships generally don't get as many opportunities to commit warcrimes

[ocean yacht]

I mean, you can like specifically target civilian areas during a bombing raid

[grave ravine]

Fair, and its likely Akagi did do that in China in 1939, but not a lot actually survives in English about those deployments

[grave ravine]

I mean when you compare it to land units of the IJA and IJN who had a fondness for beheading people...

[spiral cedar]

TONE sinks British freighter SS BEHAR. She takes aboard 108 captives, but four die.
15 March 1944:
Arrives at at Batavia. Disembarks 32 POWs.
18 March 1944:
Departs Batavia. Aboard AOBA en route to Singapore, ComCruDiv 16, Rear Admiral Sakonjo Naomasa (former CO of SETTSU) orders the remaining 72 captives beheaded. [4]```
—Tone TROM

[delicate beacon]

You can always commandeer a hospital ship, machine gun stragglers at sea, continue firing on a capsized ship to reduce survivors or strafe any in the water.

[subtle prawn]

#history message

[grave ravine]

Yeah I mentioned the IJN had a tendency to abuse and execute prisoners, I was not attempting to whitewash their actions

I was just referencing the fact that you won't see the universal and constant series of murder and abuse that you do with the land units of the Imperial Military due to the fact that the ships had fewer opportunities to do so

Like pick a random IJN warship and it may not have ever been in a place to take on board captives, and thus doesn't execute any. This doesn't mean the IJN is any less institutionally bankrupt, their record when they do pick up prisoners is absolutely atrocious, but you wont find explicit incidents for every ship they way you would for every land unit.

[spiral cedar]

right

[spring briar]

Jaba

When the IJN had quite comparable shells to everyone else

But then decided

Nope

cuts AP cap in two

[junior trench]

it's literally a letter of the law war crime

a military attack without a declaration of war is like, page 1 of the big book of war crimes

[tough quail]

it's not a war crime if it wasn't a war yet

[grave ravine]

Japan did declare war, its just it appears they delivered it after Ward opened fire on the midget submarines

and the subs fired back

[junior trench]

that wasn't a declaration of war

it was a declaration of the end of diplomatic efforts

The crime of surprise attack, as codified, defined and prohibited by the Third Hague Convention of 1907, was charged as an armed attack commencing hostilities without a preceding five-point declaration of war as demanded by that treaty.

Japan didn't publish a declaration of war until almost 8 hours after the attack began

and even that wasn't properly delivered to the US

[junior trench]

correction, not even that

it only signaled an end to a particular round of talks

[grave ravine]

Ok fair, I thought the 14pt declaration was the declaration of war

[junior trench]

https://web.archive.org/web/20210516225555/https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/12/09/national/history/historian-seeks-to-clear-embassy-of-pearl-harbor-sneak-attack-infamy/

[spiral cedar]

The message delivered by Ambassador Nomura was not a declaration of war. It first reviewed the issues and the status of the negotiations from the Japanese viewpoint, provided an amazing apologia for several Japanese positions, and accused the Americans of not negotiating in good faith.

This message was not a declaration of war. It chided the Americans for the developments during the negotiations between the two nations and stated their view that an agreement was impossible “though further negotiations,” which returned relations to the status quo ante conditions prior to the beginning of negotiations. There was no intimation that the next step was war—there was no mention of resorting to war in the note. The note terminated negotiations, but did not break diplomatic relations or announce the recall their ambassador.

The idea forwarded by historians that the message “signified Japan’s intention to resort to war to achieve its aims” cannot be supported anywhere in the text. Certainly the American President did not think so: in his address to Congress on 8 December 1941(the famous “Day of Infamy” speech), Roosevelt referred to the 14-point message, saying that “While this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or armed attack.” Certainly Japan’s ambassador to the United States did not interpret the note as signifying war. After delivering the note Nomura was informed of Pearl Harbor. The news of the attack “both surprised and stunned him.”

War was officially declared by Japan when the Privy Council met and issued an Imperial Declaration of War against England and the United States, at 1045 Tokyo time (1515 Pearl Harbor time), seven hours after the beginning of the attack.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1653894810594340864

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1945, USS Aaron Ward (DM-34) was pummeled by six kamikaze strikes near Okinawa. The crew battled against raging fires and exploding ammunition to keep the ship afloat. A kamikaze propeller can be seen lodged in her superstructure, just forward of the 5"/38 guns.

Twitter · May 3, 2023, 10:50 PM

[eternal veldt]

Kaga was the main one that did the bombing raids in China, IIRC.

However, you most certainly have this

[wintry moat]

Damn, old girl is in ruins but still afloat

impressive

[eternal veldt]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Darwin

In which case, the entire Kido Butai should be held accountable for attacking hospital ships

I think @desert agate can tell you more on this.

[eternal veldt]

Inazuma, Ikazuchi, and Ushio I think are the relatively good eggs when it comes to rescuing and treating PoW.

Most certainly better than a certain UR DD and her companions machine gunning hors de combat in the water. That said, think a couple allied subs also did this.

[strong plank]

warships don’t generally get as many opportunities to commit war crimes

sure as hell didn’t slow the IJN down though

-falsified surrender
-machine-gunning POWs in the water
-chaining captured pilots to anchors and throwing them overboard
-forcing POWs to march off the sub into the propellers
-beheading POWs

off the top of my head

wait what the fuck

mark felton
historian

Is Wikipedia citing itself these days

[grave ravine]

Again, I wasn't trying to imply that the IJN wasn't morally bankrupt as an organization, or trying to dismiss the many injustices they committed, I was trying to explain why you might not find a list of warcrimes for every last random IJN warship

[eternal veldt]

Mark Felton's book on IJN war crimes is actually quite comprehensive.

His case on SS Behar actually shows Tone's XO trying to at least fight against the order to some extent (and refusing to participate), whereas the CO just tried the "just following orders, don't really care" and the squadron commander on board Aoba being the biggest human cunt there is

Tone's crew in general were being quitr hostile to the captives, and the XO basically told them to stop...before the whole mess.

[humble mulch]

Would like to also point out the depictions of Americans the Japanese were fed and period we are taking about

The dehumanisation towards your enemies makes it rather easy for people to not apply their own sense of morals to others, which yeah most nations tend to do but Japan is one of the ones who did it in a much more profound way

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1653935563114725377

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

During WWII, a 650 foot replica of a Japanese Takao-class heavy cruiser was built out of lumber and tar paper in California to serve as a USAAF bombing target. The mirage effect and a wake of sand made the "Muroc Maru" appear to be sailing through the desert.
#WarshipWednesday

Twitter · May 4, 2023, 1:32 AM

[supple sandal]

THE FUCKING BRITISH AGAIN

[austere anchor]

https://tenor.com/view/f4phantom-jet-aircraft-skies-flying-gif-16187070

love this plane

the phantom

[desert agate]

i have been summoned

[desert agate]

yeah his books aren't that bad

[desert agate]

https://twitter.com/AusAirForce/status/1653942523482750979?s=20

Royal Australian Air Force (@AusAirForce)

All wings report in, it’s #StarWarsDay – and we’re delivering air and space power for the joint force in a galaxy far, far away. . . .

#MayTheFourthBeWithYou #AusAirForce

Twitter · May 4, 2023, 2:00 AM

[eternal veldt]

The 1942 Darwin Raid targetted hospital ships, right?

[deep apex]

I think so. Don't quote me on that though

[runic prairie]

It set the gold standard for multirole fighters.

[desert agate]

there was a hospital ship present, HMAHS Manunda, she was hit in spite of being properly marked and 12 hospital staff/crew were killed with another 19 seriously wounded

[junior trench]

speaking of hospital ships, there's those times the US conducted procedural boarding inspection of Japanese hospital ships (allowed under international law) and found them being used a troop and ammunition ships

so the IJN was fucking with hospital ships in both directions

a reverse spitroast one could say

[manic latch]

Hikawa Maru 

On this day 1982 Hms Sheffield was hit by Argentine Exocet becoming the first Royal Navy ship lost in action since 1945

[autumn sorrel]

So when I bomb and do torp run on Jap hospital ship in War of the Sea, I technically not committing war crime?

[eternal veldt]

No. Before you commence fire, it should be checked that any other option is not available.

Diversion or capture is not feasible
No other method to exercise control is available
The violations are grave enough to allow the ship to be classified as a military objective
The damage and casualties will not be disproportionate to the military advantage.
In all other circumstances, attacking a hospital ship is a war crime.```

Battlestations Pacific also funnily had you command an IJN submarine and sink a US Hospital ship. (Optional, but needs to be done to get a 100% completion rate).

[autumn sorrel]

[eternal veldt]

Not like the Japanese actually cared whether it has a massive fucking red cross on it or not

cough Centaur

[autumn sorrel]

They might interpret it as a marker of where to shoot at

[eternal veldt]

Its a war crime, as simple as that

[autumn sorrel]

Shame they die before they get trial but considering Mcunter run the trial....

Wait, Mcunter did pass death penalty on IJN admirals so there are a chance justice is serve

[eternal veldt]

Lets not go there, since it ties closely to modern politics

And yea, some served sentences, like Tone's CO I mentioned this morning

[autumn sorrel]

So without any way to check whether hospital ship is violating the rule or not, aircraft cannot attack them?

[eternal veldt]

A lot of the other cunts either just perished fighting and took the """"honourable""""" way out

They can do inspections, which as a hospital ship, they must comply

Even take patients as PoW

The crew is immune though

Partly why the Laconia incident is so fucked, even though its a submarine and not a hospital ship

sub with red cross on it, survivors on board and literally radioing we are survivors

US commander: don't care, bomb the fuck out of it

[autumn sorrel]

American, need no more comment

[eternal veldt]

Just not happy how the whole affair is carried out

[autumn sorrel]

Even when you want to do good thing, there always will be trigger happy assholes

[manic latch]

"You have 20 seconds to comply"

The B-24 pilots mistakenly reported they had sunk U-156, and were awarded medals for bravery

[strong plank]

Care to elaborate on that

[manic latch]

I think it's a America= explosions and guns joke

[autumn sorrel]

Be American
Bomb ship that radioing they are carry survivors with visible lifeboat towing behind them

[autumn sorrel]

Maybe be more on how hothead and trigger happy US military used to be

[strong plank]

fwiw it seems that the British didn’t pass it on the Americans that a rescue was even underway

and then the base commander fucked up and assumed that it was a ruse

having not been told to expect a German rescue operation

[manic latch]

Richardson later claimed he believed that the rules of war at the time did not permit a combat ship to fly Red Cross flags. He feared that the German submarine would attack the two Allied freighters diverted by the British to the site. He assumed that the German submarine was rescuing only the Italian POWs.

[desert agate]

And yet the man who sank the Centaur died of old age

[delicate beacon]

McCunther's trials were rigged.
How else did ||he manage to still be in command in Korea wth||

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaQaaD0WoD4

[manic latch]

Italy: Puts 102mm
USA: Puts 75mm
British: Puts 57mm

Germany: Puts 75mm
Man they were desperate

[delicate beacon]

||
|| 🇳🇱
||_____

[humble mulch]

Hungry hungry Sherman

[manic latch]

French L-990 light monitor patrolling the Rhin, built in 1954 and used by the Rhin Naval Force until its disbandment in 1966, basically a M4A2 Sherman tank with its suspension, wheels and tracks removed and mounted on a barge

[manic latch]

Female Red army soldier controls
traffic in front of the Brandenburg Gate, Berlin, 1945

[autumn sorrel]

Anyone who overspeed will get shot

[strong plank]

it's sitting so politely, give it some food

[chilly flower]

My brother in christ the former three are in an anti-shipping context
This is Anti-tank use

[manic latch]

Like the American Grizzly with her 75mm yes

" ground attack aircraft to replace the Douglas A-20 Havoc, with the ability to hit "hardened" targets like tanks and bunkers and to attack coastal shipping"

[chilly flower]

And is it not still a desperate measure to be mounting cannons that large exclusively for anti-tank use, especially with the Eastern Front as context

Grizzly meanwhile stayed experimental

[manic latch]

Well year was 1944

[chilly flower]

And?

[manic latch]

No worth starting it's mass production

And B-29 had priority for her engines

[chilly flower]

My guy it wouldn't have been ready in time even for Op Downfall
And even then it wouldn't be put into use for it's gun, just other ground attack capabilities

Again, how does it make the Luftwaffe mounting 75s for AT not desperate

At least watch the fucking video first

[manic latch]

Just saying title feels like it was only Germans who slapped anti tank gun on their planes

[chilly flower]

He literally mentions a few of the other large-caliber mountings in the first few minutes

[manic latch]

Seems I judged a book by its cover then yes

[chilly flower]

And that doesn't really seem like the intention anyways
Again, context

[subtle prawn]

https://news.usni.org/2023/05/04/navy-research-vessel-r-v-petrel-righted-and-refloated

[ivory ridge]

[strong plank]

She lives

[runic prairie]

https://command.matrixgames.com/?page_id=3262

Very interesting article, I highly recommend a read.

[thorny patio]

I always found it ironic that German military planing just prior and then throughout the years before Barbarossa was geared towards stealing as much resources as possible from other European nations... Yet by the end they started banking on resource intensive "Wunderwaffe" that they wanted to MASS PRODUCE

Tho in fairness, Wunderwaffe might have been more the fantasy of the most diehard party members... I distinctly remember most discussions about Wunderwaffe being moustache man's dream

[spring briar]

@alpine onyx would it be possible to remove Graf Zeppelin’s casemate guns, use the roughly circular space left over to install a barbette structure with low profile turrets on top fitted with the 2 14.9 cm guns?

[desert agate]

https://twitter.com/Australian_Navy/status/1654387959150379010?t=H2o6n_0NPHLJVi4s3yvizQ&s=19

Royal Australian Navy (@Australian_Navy)

The heroic actions of the crew fighting a fire in HMAS Westralia 25 years ago were remembered at a memorial service today.

Twitter · May 5, 2023, 7:30 AM

[alpine onyx]

... what? As in, casemates get removed, and instead in those gaps you install a 15cm single mount each?

[spring briar]

No

Twin turrets

On circular barbettes

[eternal veldt]

But why?

[spring briar]

To enable to use the secbat for AA

[supple sandal]

American: Tiananmen Square 1989

Chinese: Bonus Army March Washington 1932

American: What

[alpine onyx]

They did investigate the option of removing the casemates, extending the platforms a bit and then slap more 105mm twin mounts there. But this was rejected as GZ was too far along in construction, and the effort required to execute that change would've delayed the projected completion too much. So they kept the guns, and added a sixth 105mm twin.

With the 150mm guns receiving time fuzed shells, they did plan on using the casemate guns with barrage fire against torpedo bombers

[spring briar]

[alpine onyx]

And six 105mm twins on the centerline were quite a chonky heavy AA battery

[spring briar]

Sirene

[autumn sorrel]

Should have come back with the later march where the First Lady solve it peacefully and with less Mcunter assholeness involvement

[eternal veldt]

Might want to avoid discussing that little incident lest it becomes "political".

[autumn sorrel]

But Mcunter….

[eternal veldt]

Not that one.

[autumn sorrel]

Seriously though, how did Mcunter keep getting promotion? I understand the Army is immune from any decision made by the administration but how did McArthur not sack after he lost Philippine?

[manic latch]

It was a weird loss ye

The defending forces outnumbered the Japanese by a ratio of 3:2 but were a mixed force of non-combat-experienced regular, national guard, constabulary and newly created Commonwealth units. The Japanese used first-line troops at the outset of the campaign, and by concentrating their forces, they swiftly overran most of Luzon during the first month

[autumn sorrel]

I remember that campaign, so many Imperial Guard unit

[uneven meadow]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hlBkym_Ky6E

Look at how the Norwegians massacred my precious cinnamon roll.

[autumn sorrel]

Shouldn’t have underestimated your opponent, you might not know what nasty trick he got up in his sleeve

[wintry moat]

Wasn't it Nighttime and foggy

[autumn sorrel]

It was but German intel disregard the fortress and doesn’t even know about the torp battery

[wintry moat]

Ah

So 100% underestimated the Norwegians

[eternal veldt]

Blücher carried SS troops on board, so...as cute as the AL version is and as painful as it is to say it

good riddance

[wintry moat]

Fair

[thorn trail]

the entire air force in the Philippines was lost in the 1st hours of the invasion

Like the only major air base at the time was Clark and McArthur had all the planes grouped up to prevent sabotage

[wintry moat]

did the Nazis USD her sinking as a Reason for the occupying Norway, or at least a part of it

[thorn trail]

I mean they were already invading Norway

why would they use it as more excuses

[wintry moat]

Ok

I was wondering if it was used as justification

what was the Fallout of Her sinking I guess is what I'm after

[thorn trail]

I mean would you wonder WHY Blucher was in a Norwegian Fjord in the first place

[wintry moat]

Do you know why?