history

[manic latch]

Then likely

Should be 20km

[shrewd pecan]

3 KM max range on the standard TOS

[manic latch]

Oh yeah Tos-1

10km for 1A

[shrewd pecan]

comparably the TOS-1A doesn’t have to be exactly at the frontline since it has over triple the range as the standard

[manic latch]

There is also the new Tos-2. While likely 10km like 1A. It should be much more mobile

And easier reload etc

[shrewd pecan]

Honestly what they probably should of gone for from the start assuming boosting the range to 10+ KMs is doable

[manic latch]

Starting point should have been 10km ye

Not 5-3

[shrewd pecan]

I don’t really think smacking it on a tank hull is all that worth it when the tanks not gonna survive the rocket rack going off anyways

[manic latch]

Yup

Armor is useless

Say what's US equal of Tos?

Don't say Himars since that's Tornado equal

[shrewd pecan]

The calliope probably considering the US hasn’t really done anything equivalent

[manic latch]

"In the early 1970s, the Soviet Union had a clear advantage over U.S. and NATO forces in terms of rocket artillery. Soviet tactics of bombardment by large numbers of truck-mounted multiple rocket launchers (MRLs), such as the BM-21, would saturate a target area with thousands of rockets, ensuring some would hit specific targets while delivering a psychological impact. By contrast, U.S. artillerists favored cannon artillery for its relative accuracy and ammunition conservation over "area fire" rockets, and as a result were left with only a small amount of World War II vintage rocket artillery"

Thus M270 born

[manic latch]

This mindset began to change following the 1973 Yom Kippur War, which saw high loss rates, especially from rear-area weapons like surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), as well as the effective Israeli tactic of hitting such sites with MRLs. This combined with the realization that such an experience would happen on a larger scale in the event of war in Europe.

Slat armor on M270

This thing expecting RPG hits shouldn't be pleasant

[shrewd pecan]

flatbed m113

[manic latch]

Where is its ass

[chilly osprey]

Yikes

Ok, so, if we're going to talk about the logic of building the Deutschland-class, discussing them purely in the context of WWII and what airpower was like in 1940 and beyond is absolutely the wrong way to approach it, because that is not the context they were designed and procured in.

I'm not D-land stan, but these were ships procured in the 1920s by the Weimar Republic when the most potent navy the Reichsmarine had to worry about countering was France's Marine Nationale.

Now, by the limits of the Versailles Treaty, Germany could only replace the pre-dreadnought battleships it was allowed to maintain after WWI with 10,000-ton ships, that had guns no larger than 11" (283mm).

This was intended to force the Germans to build Coastal Defense Ships that would be no threat to shipping and be easily destroyed by any dreadnought battleships.

The Reichsmarine was well aware of this and decided not to play the game the French intended, as that would have been rather dumb. By creating what was effectively very long range but heavily armed cruisers, they created ships that could effectively harass French maritime traffic and be incredibly hard to counter - they were more powerful than any French cruisers (and France did not have a large enough cruiser fleet to cover the Atlantic by themselves and still do major operations elsewhere), and the French only had slow dreadnoughts and superdreadnoughts from before WWI. Germany could legally build six such ships, and France could only effectively counter them by digging into the capital ships tonnage allowed under the WNT - 175,000 tons.

[chilly osprey]

And this is what France did, but, the inevitable pressure that any ship built with capital ships tonnage be at least strong enough to also fight the dreadnought battleships the Italians had inevitably drove up the size and cost, and limited the number they could actually procure.

In this respect, the Deutschland-class were perhaps the best investment the Germans could make on a '10,000'-ton hull given the circumstances they were procured in.

Obviously the concept of fighting the British entirely changes this context, but that is not something the Weimar Republic and thus Reichsmarine were really considering at the time - because it would be idiotic. This was an issue approached only by Kriegsmarine under the Third Reich, and even that came after the Scharnhorst and early stages of the Bismarck design. The result them studying 'what do we need to fight Britain' is Plan Z.

[shut wren]

M113 look like a Su-152 but F L A T

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsG-hdLikCY

[manic latch]

Slaps B-17 engine
half of the tank is engine

[quick shard]

man i wanna mandown a uboat

[quick shard]

i blame hitler

and donerkonig

[zealous vine]

Random thought, have there ever been planes mounting this amount of recoilless rifles (or have the equivalent shell volume per "salvo")?

[quick shard]

this is a no airplane zone

[zealous vine]

Understandable

[eternal veldt]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sondergerät_SG104_"Münchhausen" There was this.

See here.

Crap, sorry for the ping, Pretz. Forgot to turn it off.

[alpine onyx]

If only Stresemann was successful

[zealous vine]

Thanks, I actually just found out and read about this recently. In fact, it's what made me think if recoilless rifles were used on a scale like tiny tim rockets

on planes

[desert agate]

Turbo stupidity in the channel while I was at work lmao

Glad common sense prevailed

[tough quail]

alright my man jesus not only are the Deutschlands actually fairly good cruisers but this one's even too aggressive for me

...also kinda funny because iirc pretty few people died aboard the Deutschlands

[desert agate]

I'm all for counterjerking against the wehrbs but there's a point where it leaves the plane of reality and becomes a myth of its own

[tough quail]

two whacked in port and spee just dropped off her crew and scuttled

[eternal veldt]

The Deutschlands weren't without flaws, I'll be honest, especially Scheer's ridiculous protection scheme

and IIRC Breyer mentioned some slight "wetness" before Deutschland and Scheer received their Atlantic bows, but other than that, can't really think of much to complain

Maybe the weight of the tower as well, which was also subsequently replaced on Scheer

[alpine onyx]

A bit ironic that Deutschland would end up being the first ship to take substancial hits

[eternal veldt]

You mean during the Spanish Civil War?

[alpine onyx]

yep

the two bomb hits killing 30something men

[zealous vine]

Is it practical to put more than 2 recoilless rifles of ≥76mm on a plane?

say, for targeting emplacements and armoured ground vehicles

(or maybe even naval targets)

[shut wren]

You could use a smaller gun and be more effective

for emplacements and armored stuff

[zealous vine]

Understandable

[shrewd pecan]

I’d argue it wouldn’t really be particularly worth it

Over a rocket considering you’d get a single shot anyways

Muzzle velocity may also be a issue tho I’m not quite sure on the specifics for that one

[desert agate]

depending on how you do it you could reload it

depends on era i suppose

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sondergerät_SG104_"Münchhausen"

Only two examples I can find of aircraft mounted recoilless rifles are the German one here and a British WW1 program

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis_gun

In terms of the German program the gun caused damage to the airframe carrying it and was deemed inferior to air launched rockets

[zealous vine]

Interesting

Damn, I was hoping to find inspiration for a fictional plane..

[desert agate]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.108

not recoilless but big gun and could be reloaded

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/you-are-one-ugly-gif-19235602

[shut wren]

[shut wren]

Mfs removed the gun and put more ERA

[shrewd pecan]

gun was probably either damaged or the turret was before the conversion

[shut wren]

But why can’t they use composite armor

[shrewd pecan]

I wonder why they can't field retrofit composite armor

[shut wren]

So like does ERA have glue or smth on the back so y’all can do it in the field

[frigid karma]

https://patents.google.com/patent/KR101263746B1/en

you're intended to mount it on with screws

but seeing as an era is simply a small bomb to deflect heat jets

you can probably glue it on to anything

even if it is a bmp with armor too thin to stop the era blast

[shut wren]

So like

The groves are there to snap in place or for you to put screws in

[shut wren]

[manic latch]

"It's gonna get way worse"

[tough quail]

its, uh, dramatically more difficult to design an entirely new composite array to bolt onto the front of a turret as opposed to just sticking ERA bricks on

[manic latch]

insert note emote

[shut wren]

[shut wren]

Just strap random metals on it

[tough quail]

https://tenor.com/view/partying-cat-party-cat-cute-cat-kitten-gif-22225605

how about i strap you to it

[manic latch]

Perfect

[tough quail]

a human torso probably counts as NERA

[manic latch]

Can work as psychological warfare

[shut wren]

Tf is NERA

[manic latch]

Mss

[shut wren]

[manic latch]

If ERA is

Explosive reactive armor

[shut wren]

I can’t say what came to my mind first

[manic latch]

What do you think N is for

[tough quail]

non explosive reactive armor, aka most modern composite armors

[shut wren]

I CANT SAY IT

[tough quail]

shit like expanding rubber instead of a bomb

[shut wren]

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

[shut wren]

Anyways uhh

What else

[strong plank]

a comically large airbag

[shut wren]

Filled with

Uhh

Rubber

[frigid karma]

ever heard of applique

also a human body would probably be spaced armor

[shut wren]

No

[shut wren]

Put a pig or cow

That sure would stop it if

Ig

[spring briar]

@manic latch

[manic latch]

Beautiful

[spring briar]

Br-482b has black air force energy

[manic latch]

Object 279's gun ye

[shut wren]

The moon rover?

[manic latch]

Yes

[spring briar]

IS-7

[shut wren]

That’s one big boi

Oh

[spring briar]

[shut wren]

Still one big boi

[manic latch]

Ah IS-7 also use it

[shut wren]

[manic latch]

Both 130mm after all

[spring briar]

Demon energy 130mm

🇫🇷🤝

[shut wren]

IS-7 was so heavy that it’s own gun couldn’t pen it

Iirc

[spring briar]

No surprise

[manic latch]

That's not being about heavy

Her armor was designed to tank her own 130mm

Or German 128mm

[spring briar]

[shut wren]

It had too much of that shit

HEATFS ftw

APFSDS ftw

Anyways

[manic latch]

You are my fever dream

[spring briar]

POV: Soviet Sherman at Sevastopol

[shut wren]

“Crew knocked out”

[spring briar]

Nah the crew is just yellow

[shut wren]

Soviet bias at its finest

[spring briar]

Remember in aldnoah zero, when the martians orbitally landed their ships by basically crashing them into earth to nuke the entire landing site, creating a scorched earth patch to launch their assault from?

[humble mulch]

this is based as fuck

[spring briar]

Yes

Especially with the ost

Mkaliez

Man that shit was so good

[manic latch]

Remember when I was happy

[spring briar]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/372267338663198720/1091061460643364986/1034723981825159228-1.gif

Yes

Now

[runic prairie]

@spring briar @desert agate @delicate beacon @eternal veldt @alpine onyx
@manic latch

I apologize for last night, I let my personal feelings on the matter get in the way of objective judgment.

I was wrong in stating the Germans didn’t have any good designs. I see now that they had several fairly competently designed ships.

[spring briar]

Now you are happy

Is ok fam

[manic latch]

One condition to forgive you

Say Soyuz is cute

[spring briar]

Don’t do it!

[manic latch]

[spring briar]

Rivets

[runic prairie]

She looks alright

Not my thing personally but I can see the appeal.

[spiral cedar]

The British intel agencies claimed credit, but their disinformation and propaganda efforts were mostly immaterial to the decision to scuttle. The fact of the matter is that the damage Spee received in the battle doomed her as soon as she put to port in Montevideo.

Exeter had scored a hit that detonated in an auxiliary machinery space, destroying Spee's fresh water distillation capability. This, combined with another hit in her bow that left an enormous hole, ended her hopes of escape back to Germany. With this damage Spee would be unable to shake off the British cruisers outside Montevideo if she attempted to flee, and even if she could the loss of speed and fresh water would make reaching Altmark (and Germany) impossible. The presence of a British carrier and battlecruiser was immaterial when Britain already had the cruiser divisions to spare to ensure she would not return home.

[manic latch]

Good good

[spring briar]

@humble mulch

New Orleans

Nooooooo

[humble mulch]

Slaine should have won

[spring briar]

But seriously

[runic prairie]

I already said I was wrong.

[spring briar]

Mars humans >>>>>>>>>

Literally

None of that weak ass Elon Musk energy

[runic prairie]

The lack of a nuclear response was disheartening.

[humble mulch]

now real question is could you actually do that and then deploy forces with irl tech (not using Martian magic)

[spring briar]

No, the ship would not survive the crash

[runic prairie]

The squishy humans would be strawberry jelly even if the ship could survive.

[shut wren]

No

[spring briar]

You need some sort of inertial dampening or some ridiculous single crystal metal ship

Idk

Still based af scene

[runic prairie]

They should’ve nuked Mars in response.

[spring briar]

Guys we must orbitally land in Berlin

https://tenor.com/view/the-end-destroy-meteorite-gif-24614959

[runic prairie]

“I always get the shakes before a drop. I’ve had the injections, of course, and hypnotic preparation, and it stands to reason that I can’t really be afraid. The ship’s psychiatrist has checked my brain waves and asked me silly questions while I was asleep and he tells me that it isn’t fear, it isn’t anything important — it’s just like the trembling of an eager race horse in the starting gate.”

[spring briar]

Anyone here seen space battleship yamato 2199?

When Gamillas just drops a huge bullet from orbit
Most disrespectful regime

[wintry moat]

Starship troopers is a decent read

I liked it

[alpine onyx]

If Spee's diary is to be believed, even the combat damage wasn't really the issue. It was the combination of her awfully worn down machinery (which was pushed over the limit during the engagement, marking her safe top speed at 18kn), and the entire world (literally) knowing where she was. The moment she set off for Germany she would be shadowed, and even a rusty R-class with half the boilers disabled would be able to intercept her from the British Isles.

There was simply no way for her to get back, regardless of what fleet would be sitting in front of Montevideo. Langsdorff made the only correct call there

[spiral cedar]

Aside from not ensuring the radar was blown to smithereens

[alpine onyx]

Nobody's perfect

[runic prairie]

It’s good so long as you understand that such a system as Heinlein describes would very quickly devolve into a stratified society.

[spring briar]

And he blew his brains out

[runic prairie]

He just wanted to be a good Nazi.

[alpine onyx]

Either he blows his own lights out, or he'll get court martialed back home

[spring briar]

Either way

[alpine onyx]

because bla bla cowardice in the face of the enemy

[spring briar]

He was self cleaning

And or magical

[wintry moat]

That and didn't he believe the Carrier was on it's way already?

that Ark Royale was in the area?

[alpine onyx]

Some crew members did report sighting a battlecruiser (probably misidentified the normal cruisers nearby)

[delicate beacon]

[runic prairie]

@spring briar

http://www.one35th.com/model/k5/k5_ammunition.htm

Here’s some interesting ammunition for a German railway gun.

[spring briar]

Oh

Yeah I know of it

Have a whole folder of it already

[runic prairie]

Ah nevermind

[shut wren]

how much does a MOAB cost to build?

[spring briar]

You’ll be lucky to find a shell I don’t have in my folders somewhere

[shut wren]

Makes new shell

[runic prairie]

“Homework” folder

[shut wren]

"Finds shell"

Luck 100

[runic prairie]

I’ll just have to cut apart an M829A4 and measure its dimensions and specifications.

Including performance

[runic prairie]

Naturally

[shut wren]

Stedt the kind of person to have a 3MT thermonuclear warhead in his closet

[spring briar]

Call me richie

[shut wren]

Richie the Kind of person to have a 3MT thermonuclear warhead in his closet*

[spring briar]

[runic prairie]

Taylor limit is 6kt/kg

This means that at maximum possible efficiency such a weapon would be 500kg

An 80 Gallon hot Water tank weighs about 400kg with water.

In conclusion the closet must be designed for installation of an 80 Gallon hot water tank to be able to store a 3 Megaton nuclear device, assuming maximum yield efficiency. In reality you’re looking at a minimum of ~2000kg for a weapon or multiple weapons of that yeild.

The question for Stedt is what are the building codes like where they live.

[spring briar]

Nah my closet has antimatter

Also, just richie is fine

[shut wren]

Homie's closet has a pocket dimension

[runic prairie]

Mirror Sea looking MF

On a somewhat related note, my Grandfather actually knew Edward Teller and they worked together for a while with my Grandfather and Grandmother going over to have dinner with them on at least one occasion.

Edward Teller and his wife that is.

[shut wren]

who the hell was Edward teller

nevermind

[runic prairie]

Father of the hydrogen bomb

[shut wren]

speaking on Hydrogen bombs and stuff

does anyone know how many years of service in the PLA does it take for the oppotunity to join the Nuclear command force or is that classified

[runic prairie]

Looking to do a funny?

[shut wren]

uhhh

[runic prairie]

If it’s anything like the U.S. time in service doesn’t matter so much as screening.

The Personal Reliability Program is really hard for people to pass and they will kick you out of handling nukes at the first sign of anything even remotely compromising.

[shut wren]

iirc it takes 6 years for someone to be eligible to hold the funny nuclear football next to the president?

for US

[runic prairie]

Wouldn’t surprise me. They don’t mess around (as it should be).

[shut wren]

heh Red button goes brr brr

Im just curious

[runic prairie]

China’s nuclear program is pretty secretive in general. They weren’t bound by treaties like START and SALT so they have no reason to disclose certain details.

[spring briar]

Ulam Teller device ( I use it to brush my teeth)

[shut wren]

which is why im so curious

[runic prairie]

Fair enough

[spring briar]

[runic prairie]

https://youtu.be/qvi-0bzutt8

[shut wren]

Totally not looking to join the PLA

[spring briar]

Do it

Then we can 1v1 in Bangladesh

[shut wren]

uhh

give me like a few years

[shut wren]

Why bangladesh tho

[spring briar]

[shut wren]

[spiral cedar]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/977917335627243570/1097056004765659267/image0.jpg

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/yamato-vs-queen-elizabeth-warspite.243056/

Oh no

[shut wren]

[spiral cedar]

Do not take notes

[shut wren]

[tough quail]

I love how these clowns seem to think Yamatos TDS is so bad a single underwater hit will cripple her and the damcon teams are pumping the entire ship full of avgas

i sure do love mass exaggeration

[shut wren]

so like

apart from Anti ship missiles and cruise missiles

what would it take to sink a Ford class carrier assuming all of its escorts and stuff are sunk/out of service and its onship defense systems destroyed

[humble mulch]

Id look into that one cv the US test sank

[shut wren]

So

we drop a shit ton of boom inside the carrier

[tough quail]

anything that explodes could sink it

they're not armored or anything

it's just really huge so it'll take a while to go under

[spiral cedar]

They are a little bit armored, but mostly to reduce the extent of damage rather than to reject ordnance outright

[tough quail]

aye

[shut wren]

So we bomb it until it sinks

got chu

[tough quail]

well you'd be better off torpedoing it or shelling the waterline

[shut wren]

So in that case

[tough quail]

Bombs will probably just turn it into a burning hulk

[shut wren]

is it possible to capture the entire thing and bring it back

[humble mulch]

You're better off just trying to cripple it, as outright sinking will take a fucking while

[tough quail]

if you keep the crew from scuttling her sure

[shut wren]

There cant be the Crew trying to scuttle her if they're all dead

[humble mulch]

And boarding a ship is probably not going to be worth the cost

[shut wren]

Yeet some [Banned weapons] in it

boom

cleared carrier

[spiral cedar]

Subdivision exists

[shut wren]

all you have to do is to clean out the gas

[humble mulch]

Like it's made to not flood

[spiral cedar]

And that's sort of asking for retaliatory strikes

[humble mulch]

Gas isn't gonna do shit

[shut wren]

[spiral cedar]

Modern large warships have NBC protection systems meant to be able to keep this sort of stuff contained

[humble mulch]

Again that's a lot more work and future issues for, a damaged cv

[spiral cedar]

You're better off using a normal boom

[shut wren]

ok ok we plant a shitton of C4

so

assuming all friendly forces are away

can we damage the nuclear reactor enough that it goes into critical meltdown

[maiden citrus]

'we accidentally turned on the anti damage control pumps! who put them right next to each other??'

[maiden citrus]

no

us naval reactors are designed on a way where they don't meltdown

[shut wren]

Nothing is meltdown proof if you shoot it enough

I hope

[spiral cedar]

That's not what a meltdown is

You blow it up and you guarantee it can't melt down

[maiden citrus]

most intelligent chinese spy op

[shut wren]

so we use torpedos and sink that shit

[spiral cedar]

Pretty much. Which means getting past the SSNs guarding the carrier force

[shut wren]

"Assuming all of its escorts and stuff are sunk/out of service"

Big what ifs here

[spiral cedar]

Obviously if you can mangle the flight deck and distract the rest of the force with damage control ops and looking for further air threats, your subs have better odds of slipping in

The SSN will still be there but the surface escorts will at least be a bit more distracted

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1647697497156976641

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1945, USS Laffey came under attack by 2 dozen kamikaze. The ship shot down several aircraft but was struck by at least 6 planes and 4 bombs. Remarkably, the Laffey survived. In 2018, it was reported that Mel Gibson would direct a film about the Laffey titled DESTROYER.

Likes

158

Twitter · Apr 16, 2023, 8:24 PM

[runic prairie]

Their decks are actually pretty strong (iirc like 4 inches thick) to accommodate aircraft.

Plus the sponsons act like spaced armor.

[maiden citrus]

I'll give her direction a salute

[shut wren]

TIL how to supposely Sink a US carrier fleet*** [On paper]***

[runic prairie]

Lots of shielding around the reactor first for radiation but it has the side-effect of making them about the strongest part of the ship.

[shut wren]

[runic prairie]

There’s a reason the Soviets planned to use nukes to destroy Carriers.

[maiden citrus]

which is

[runic prairie]

They’re damned hard to kill

[maiden citrus]

let's just say we did some tests on that before them

[tough quail]

well the reason there was to wipe out the entire fleet

not because carriers are sturdy

if a backfire slams a gaping hole into the flight deck of a CVN it's useless

[shut wren]

Yea but like we cant really use big boom booms cuz uhh the US can strike back

[tough quail]

in case of nuclear war you just gib the entire battlegroup

[tough quail]

a modern Soviet nuclear torpedo is uhh

a bit different

[runic prairie]

In case of escalating war the Battlegroup disperses so that no one nuclear detonation can get it.

Something like 30-50 nautical miles across.

Puts them at higher risk for subs but makes nuclear strikes less effective.

[shut wren]

[spiral cedar]

Well they kinda are, but also with a nuke you would be able to take out the carrier even if the missile went for the wrong ship in the formation

Falklands flashbacks

[shut wren]

[tough quail]

yeah valid

[shut wren]

How hard is capturing modern ships while they are not at port

[tough quail]

though my point is more it's not their main carrier whacker or anything, nukes are as per all doctrine the fuck everything weapon

for carriers specifically you're slinging granits

[spiral cedar]

I'll be honest, if you wanna know how a Ford is built, the PRC has enough spies in the US to figure that out. Capturing isn't anything more than a trophy

[shut wren]

We prob already do know but like,a already built carrier is easier than building one from scratch

just patch it up

[spiral cedar]

In the modern day, Granits would be a poor choice. Pretty much every major power now has missiles with better seekers that aren't spoofed as easily

though in context I see you're talking Cold War

So fair enough

[shut wren]

are you sure these mfs arent talking about some 900's boat named yamato

[tough quail]

oh yeah i mean during the cold war

not right now

[spiral cedar]

Anyway if you wanna read how the Soviets planned to fight US carrier groups this is a good paper
https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1247&context=nwc-review

[tough quail]

(because i cant remember the name of the replacement)

also i just think granits are cool

[runic prairie]

“Moreover, in plans, three to five planes in each regimental strike had to carry missiles with nuclear warheads. It was calculated that up to twelve hits by missiles with regular warheads would be needed to sink a carrier; by contrast, a single nuclear-armed missile hit could produce the same result. In any case, almost all soviet anticarrier submarine assets had nuclear-armed anticarrier missiles and torpedoes on board for routine patrols.35”

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1247&context=nwc-review

Use of nuclear weapons against carriers was very much part of doctrine.

[tough quail]

if things escalated straight to nuclear war yes, but in by far the most likely scenario they'd start slinging conventional warhead granits instead

nobody wants to pull the end of the world trigger, so nobody likely will

[runic prairie]

That’s a complicated scenario.

The Global War Game series indicated that escalation to nuclear weapon use was very much likely.

The problem was around escalation control.

If U.S. carriers threatened the SSBN bastions, the Soviets would go nuclear.

When a side thinks they’re losing it becomes more tempting to push the button.

[tough quail]

we've also seen false alarms and very close calls in actual real life scenarios and the common factor is

well

we're alive

[runic prairie]

We also aren’t in a shooting war.

In GWG escalation control became the fixation of the exercise. It’s hard to predict depending on what the sides view as a “win” condition.

https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1020&context=usnwc-newport-papers

Here’s the link to a writeup on GWG.

[maiden citrus]

both sides lose, Yamato rams and boards

[runic prairie]

P-800 Oniks/SS-N-26 STROBILE

On the flip side defense might’ve looked like:

“With two hours warning for example, a CV could dispatch a surface CG missile trap 60nm down the threat axis, station the CAP Outer Air Battle Grid, put a CG decoy group stationary, and run another 60nm down range and off axis in a silent mode. Then the regiment locates a likely target at the expected point, runs into a missile trap, fighter grid, and a target that can defend itself without ever threatening the CV.”

You all get to enjoy my amazing artistic skills

[maiden citrus]

[runic prairie]

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-031.php

[runic prairie]

Sorry, *autistic skills.

[shut wren]

[runic prairie]

Are you taking notes?

[shut wren]

Yes

[quick shard]

noted

[maiden citrus]

[runic prairie]

Was worried there for a second.

[shut wren]

[runic prairie]

[shut wren]

[frigid karma]

man this discussion is quite interesting

if this is the extent of chinese research on how to sink us carriers we might as well as start taking them from sail-by salutes

[shut wren]

I dont work for the MSS

[maiden citrus]

gotta do what you can

[shut wren]

We're trying out here

[runic prairie]

IIRC the DF-21 was inspired by the Pershing II missile, at least it’s use of a MARV and terminal radar seeker.

Presumably its flight profile is pretty similar as they both face similar constraints in operations.

[frigid karma]

A single fritz x would do horrific things to the yamato as well, another blew the Roma clean in two. Actually proves that warspites luck is silly good.

sure buddy

[frigid karma]

yamato armor = roma armor

[maiden citrus]

random aggression ain't gonna start itself

[maiden citrus]

wasn't even warspite being lucky as she got screwed by it

roma was unlucky

[maiden citrus]

the thread is funny as almost no one in it posts things that make sense sans like

one dude

[runic prairie]

Obviously the deciding factor is the 3000 Corgi Marines of QE.

[maiden citrus]

Yamato rams and boards

the new 'goku clears'

[runic prairie]

Japanese are lured into the trap and the Corgis rip them to shreds.

[shut wren]

Cook em

[runic prairie]

Yamato is taken as a prize

[frigid karma]

Question:

[spiral cedar]

~~Don’t forget one of the “Warspite lucky” people there is Drach ~~

[frigid karma]

Chemical weapons in naval warfare

[runic prairie]

Useless

[shut wren]

^

dont most ships have subdivisions

[frigid karma]

amendment

biochemical weapons in naval warfare

[runic prairie]

Useless

[shut wren]

if you get enough people infected

shit spreads

[runic prairie]

It has to be quick acting

[frigid karma]

Anthrax in a missile

[runic prairie]

Anthrax is very easy to counter.

[shut wren]

bruh

the entire ship sinks

*If direct hit

[runic prairie]

It’s also very easy to make which is why so much effort has been put into protecting against it.

[shut wren]

Put some of that mustard shit into a tandem

[runic prairie]

No I am not going to tell you how to make anthrax.

[shrewd pecan]

man

anthrax vaccines are mandatory for the US military

[maiden citrus]

people do like to parrot the pray and spray hit so there is some luck

[runic prairie]

Also antibiotics are good against it.

[shrewd pecan]

beyond that good luck pinning down multiple vessels moving at 30+ knots with chemical weapons

especially when most have CBRN protection

[shut wren]

[runic prairie]

The Iraqis mixed nerve agents and Mustard to horrifying effect.

Mustard opens wounds while the nerve agent kills now that it’s easier to get into the body.

[shut wren]

Very important

[runic prairie]

Especially when using long persistence agents.

As mustard lesions take a while to form.

[shut wren]

[spiral cedar]

He’s taken his glasses off

[shut wren]

[spiral cedar]

[maiden citrus]

not things he needs to know

[shut wren]

[spiral cedar]

Fair

[runic prairie]

I mean this stuff isn’t hard to figure out.

[shut wren]

Never knew that lol

[runic prairie]

Chemical weapons aren’t really good at dealing with well-equipped soldiers.

Sure if you want to slaughter civilians it’s a good tool but basic MOPP, decon procedure, and various drugs can make it more of a nuisance.

[shut wren]

[shrewd pecan]

I'd also throw in the fact that chemical weapons make a opening for a cycle of escalation

that you do not want to partake in

[shut wren]

[frigid karma]

True

Since they are wmds

[runic prairie]

Yes.

Also a healthy reminder that if your opponent doesn’t have many chemical weapons but has nukes, you’re going to see some of your formations go up in fire.

[frigid karma]

it's an interesting area of military application to analyze, though

[shut wren]

[runic prairie]

Yes, like early nuclear weapon use strategy.

[shut wren]

Question:

Would the QLU-11 be a effective anti infantry weapon

[runic prairie]

Nukes and other WMDs are the embodiment of “War is Politics by other means.” Their use, doctrine, delivery method, and threshold are inherently political.

[runic prairie]

It’s certainly an interesting take on a squad support weapon.

[shut wren]

Cuz like its has a scope n shit

could be?

[runic prairie]

I mean stuff like the PUNISHER did alright despite being damn expensive.

Similar role for the two.

[shut wren]

[runic prairie]

It just depends on employment.

That matters more than the nitty gritty of weapons.

[shut wren]

So

Is the B-52 even worth copying

[runic prairie]

You guys already have the H-6

Same role

[shut wren]

Yea but I dont think it can carry the same load

[runic prairie]

No, it can’t but putting your eggs in one basket against an CV CAP isn’t a great idea.

[shut wren]

Gotchi

Could HMGs be effectively used on offensive in urban combat

[runic prairie]

Yes?

On vehicles absolutely

[shut wren]

So like not on infantry

[runic prairie]

I mean unless you want another claim at the PLA VA.

“We have determined your injury is not service related.”

[shut wren]

Whats the VA?

its a medical office?

[runic prairie]

Yeah

[shut wren]

ah ok

[runic prairie]

They’re heavy and will mess up your back.

If you’re carrying them around.

[shut wren]

How Viable are encirclements in Urban cities?

[runic prairie]

Depends.

Cold War thinking was to just bypass.

I couldn’t tell you because it depends on political aims and the geography of the situation.

[shut wren]

rip

[runic prairie]

Not to mention capabilities

cough cough Bakhmut

[shut wren]

lets say

PLAGF/PLAMC vs ROCGF

[runic prairie]

Or to be more specific, the lack thereof.

Let’s just say I wouldn’t want to be crossing the strait in a boat.

[spiral cedar]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1060684141944913980/1097313484053676152/20230415_164255.jpg

[shut wren]

ok when I join Make sure to choose GF instead of marine corp

[maiden citrus]

the doitchlund guns of drunkek

[runic prairie]

Probably a good decision for life-expectancy.

Constrained waters + lots of ASMs = not a fun time.

[shut wren]

Say,what if the ASMs were destroyed/knocked out by the PLARF before shit blows?

[runic prairie]

How much are willing to bet they get all or a good chunk of them?

[shut wren]

My life if im going MC

[maiden citrus]

what if the germans had sunk the royal navy before bismarck had to return home

[shut wren]

Bismarck prob survived until a later date

[runic prairie]

Coalition couldn’t manage that in Desert Storm and the Iraqis had far worse systems and less prep time.

Not to mention uncontested air-dominance.

Scud hunts in flat desert are hard enough.

[spiral cedar]

The fact of the matter is that any tech advances that make it easier to sink a carrier make it increasingly terrible to be riding on a barely armed boat into said warzone

[runic prairie]

Not necessarily

Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles are good against carriers because they bypass the CAP.

But they aren’t the most useful against smaller craft.

[shut wren]

Hmmm

[spiral cedar]

The transports only avoid dying to cheap ASMs so long as the big surface escorts aren’t also dead

[shut wren]

I mean

the Big Surface shits are more advanced ig

better counters?? maybe

[spiral cedar]

Absolutely

So if even those aren’t enough

[eternal veldt]

I'd also like to apologize for my rather aggressive attitude yesterday. However, I am glad we can see eye to eye on this matter. Certainly not great to be in a genocidal regime's service, but I am personally a walking example of not enjoying particular ships because of their history.

[shut wren]

We feel you

[shut wren]

the ASMs or?

[ivory ridge]

what even happened

[shut wren]

No idea

[tough quail]

[maiden citrus]

Yamato rams and boards

[tough quail]

i think yamato ramming a QE would not

leave much to board

it'd turn into a fun naval themed platformer

[runic prairie]

I think it’s been well established the Corgis give QE the decisive advantage in that engagement.

[frigid karma]

Man

we really need coral sea from bf1942 back

[tough quail]

QE is just filled with tiny attack dogs

lore established

[frigid karma]

basically, in that map it was basically irl coral sea, but you could parachute out of a plane and land on the enemy CV

[shut wren]

[frigid karma]

so 1/3rd of your team was in the air dogfighting/bombing the nemey, 1/3rd of your team in the aa guns, and 1/3rd of your team on the enemy CV placing mines and tnt

[shut wren]

The objective is to sink Enemy CV?

[frigid karma]

yes

[runic prairie]

Just give them Zuni rockets and they’ll do it for you.

[maiden citrus]

parachute out of plane towards carrier
14 chicago pianos open fire
the screen freezes with the shell swarm feet from me, and I look towards the camera
'yes that's me, you're probably wondering how I got here'

[runic prairie]

Well it all started in the winter of ‘41

[frigid karma]

Well it all started when my superior officer read der totale krieg

and thought taking over china would be based and redpilled

[maiden citrus]

it all started... when we got sad, you see the ijn is very sad, the saddest, sorrowful

[runic prairie]

It’s sad because the IJA is still alive.

Speaking of quad mounted ~20-30mm guns, does anyone know if there was ever plans to integrate the Thunderbolt mount with radar fire-control like a sort of proto-phalanx?

[maiden citrus]

IJA attempting to argue they should be the ones to land on the carrier as it is to the same effect as a beach assault landing
IJN attempting to argue the carrier is a moving man-made object at sea and should not count as land

and I have no information on that tbh

[frigid karma]

the IJA commandeers the boat and is immediately sunk by the IJN

[shut wren]

[maiden citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/sarcastic-sarcasm-terminator-thumbs-up-gif-13726704

both the IJN and IJA as they go down, knowing each is killing the other

'we at tojokistan are proud to simply kill as many of those salt slugs as we can'

[frigid karma]

Fortnite: Operation Downfall edition

IJA vs IJN vs USA vs USSR

[runic prairie]

Honestly, that’s what you call workplace toxicity.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1647770092292194304

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

In addition to torpedoes and the deck gun, the Balao-class submarine USS Blenny (SS-324) used a shotgun to sink Japanese vessels during WWII. Armed with a 12 gauge, the sub's boarding party sank several enemy junks by blasting holes in the bottom of the boats.
#SubSunday

Twitter · Apr 17, 2023, 1:12 AM

[zealous vine]

Kept on looking around for a candidate and found this. If you don't mind, can ya give me the name?

[ivory ridge]

they might be just confusing it with the P.108 armed with the naval 102

this is a... weird wikipedia function

why would i want that

[zealous vine]

Interesting

[ivory ridge]

anyway

[zealous vine]

Ah, aight

[ivory ridge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/684721152739770371/843819655717584966/image0.jpg

not italian but apparently those are recoilles rifles

yeah
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_I-12

[chilly flower]

I haven't heard of a 106mm airborne recoilless project for the Italians, though there is the aforementioned P.108A (Artigliere) experimental variant carrying a 102mm naval gun, not exactly recoilless though
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/piaggio-p-108a.27721/

[ivory ridge]

Pretz

[zealous vine]

[grave ravine]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigorovich_I-Z

[shrewd pecan]

ah

[grave ravine]

Only other one I know of

[shy haven]

Well a recoiless rifle round have a pretty bad velocity, it seems weird to put those kind of weapon on a plane made to attack waterborn target

[grave ravine]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/2w888o/the_f51d_a_p51_with_2_106mm_cannons/
Actually I lied there is also this

[shrewd pecan]

interesting

[grave ravine]

Funnily enough that P-51 actually survives, but it's back in standard P-51D configuration and painted in WW2 colors

[shy haven]

Im not an expert but, wouldn’t rocket be a better option than only 2 shot of recoiless rifle?

[shrewd pecan]

that was the conclusion we came to

[zealous vine]

Yes, but I was merely looking for a real life plane to base a fictional one off of

[chilly flower]

Other aircraft carrying large cannons (50mm+) for attacking surface targets, albeit below 100mm, would be the B-25H/PBJ-1H Mitchell (operational, bearing a 75mm M4 cannon, sometimes it differed though), XA-38 Grizzly (Prototype, T15E1 lightweight 75mm, also used in the early cannon-Mitchells in testing), Hs-129 B-3 (operational but very limited, had a BK 7,5 cm based on the Pak 40 in a belly-mounted gunpod fairing), Ju 88 P models (P-1 with the same BK cannon as the 129 B-3 with limited service, P-4 with a 50mm with 32 built, P-5 planned with an 88mm but never built), Mosquito Mk. XVIII (operational but 17 built, 6 pounder/57mm Molins gun, used successfully in two major attacks against German ships), and I believe there are some I missed or remained as projects that I simply aren't aware of- this also isn't including anti-air use of large cannons, which there are quite a few variants of existing aircraft as well as prototypes.

Of note is that none of these use recoilless guns, the only cases that I can think of recoilless guns being mounted on aircraft would be specific WW1 aircraft, early Soviet ground-attack (before they concluded that rockets were just a better choice), the ambitious German project brought up again earlier ( #history message ) for anti-shipping, where a recoilless rifle was selected for the sake of the aircraft which still didn't succeed due to airframe damage inflicted after firing, and the F-51D M40 also mentioned tested in the 1970s

https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2023/01/21/the-last-mustangs-in-the-us-army/
A good but long article that does specifically go a bit more in-depth on that particular project, though the entire thing is largely about Cold-War Mustang use by the US, you might have to scroll a bit if you don't want to read most of it

[frigid karma]

Honestly surprised no flying boats carried large caliber guns

[chilly flower]

Why would there be a need?

[frigid karma]

Funny for future wt players

But even like

Let’s say a 37 to take out small enemy ships like pt boats

AFAIK none exist

[chilly flower]

I mean, you could use a 37mm for that
But even just basic MGs or the rare 20mms (Glorious H8K) would be sufficient if you aren't just bombing the thing

And unless the 37mm is turret-mounted, it may not be all that practical to get the nose of a large, unwieldly aircraft directly on a small target like a torpedo boat

Additionally, you'd likely be giving up practical defensive guns in the nose if it is taking the place of a turret on it's own mount

Which tend to be far more valuable to a patrol bomber seeing active action where there's any air presence, while still having anti-surface utility

Ah, this may be of interest @zealous vine
OV-10 Bronco project mounting another recoilless 106mm, albeit with ammunition- iirc it is also part of the topic in that section of the Mustang article I shared

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/north-american-rockwell-ov-10-bronco.10958/
Photos from this thread

[dapper parcel]

At that point putting a rack of Zuni would be a much simpler option

of which I'm pretty sure Catalina did have at one point

[chilly flower]

Eh? Zuni on the PBY? I haven't heard of any traditional rockets being carried by them (only the special Retro-bomb/Retrorocket, which used rockets for course correction but not actual propulsion as they were another ASW weapon), or most other US Patrol Bombers except for the PB4Y-1/2
That would also be extremely out of place for era, as the Zuni is exclusively postwar (1957+) even if it is similar to it's descendants (HVAR and 5 Inch FFAR, notably Forward-Firing rather than Folding Fin to avoid confusion with the Zuni's designation), and the Catalina had already been fully phased out of USN service in all but reserves, replaced by the late PBM Mariner models, PB4Y-2, and other postwar Maritime Patrol types such as the P2V Neptune or P5M Marlin

If it's another nation's military strapping Zunis onto surplus PBYs, do please elaborate

As for the Bronco, yeah, as far as I'm aware it wasn't seriously done

[desert agate]

[frigid karma]

Apparently the B-25s in the doolittle raid were launched in time with the pitching of the ship to ensure maximum possible chance of surviving the launch

[runic prairie]

[autumn sorrel]

They can time the pitch?

[frigid karma]

ye

ships are pretty big and thus pretty predictable

hey it takes x seconds for hornet to pitch up, it takes y seconds for the b-25 to travel down the deck, do the math

[autumn sorrel]

Did USN have any prototype 2 engine aircraft for their carrier?

[frigid karma]

this one's in game

[dapper parcel]

I might actually mistake it with PBJ. All I remember was that there were MPA/ASW equipped with rockets in the pacific campaign

[dapper parcel]

F5F, F5U, TB2F, TSF
Freaking P-38 mod 822

[quick shard]

hey its mitch

he kinda chell

wait no dat ain't mitch

[runic prairie]

carrier based P-38

Christ I dream of being as based as the person who proposed that.

[grave ravine]

The AJ Savage lol

Though that's actually 3 engined

[fierce sparrow]

https://twitter.com/eamonhamilton/status/1647778181645230080
https://twitter.com/MilHiVisualized/status/1647855382868500481
https://twitter.com/PSlack83/status/1647859445383217152
https://twitter.com/MilHiVisualized/status/1647863874215981059

Eamon Hamilton (@eamonhamilton)

I don’t see the plane that nearly won the war, maybe it’s behind that Me-262

Twitter · Apr 17, 2023, 1:45 AM

Military History Visualized (@MilHiVisualized)

@eamonhamilton Wasn't that the standard line of the history channel for basically every German or Japanese weapon system of WW2?

Twitter · Apr 17, 2023, 6:51 AM

Peter Slack 🌻 (@PSlack83)

@MilHiVisualized @eamonhamilton Pretty much. Although I'm equally tired of documentaries that start "the war winning weapon...etc etc etc "

Twitter · Apr 17, 2023, 7:08 AM

Military History Visualized (@MilHiVisualized)

@PSlack83 @eamonhamilton Yeah, same crap, different color.

Twitter · Apr 17, 2023, 7:25 AM

"war winning"... whatever that is

[maiden citrus]

it came to me in a dream

[manic latch]

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/new-t-7-trainer-wont-start-production-2-more-years/

[zealous vine]

woah, interesting

looks like quite the read, thanks

[dusty kraken]

When is someone going to be brave enough to make "Hitler's missing testicle that could've won the war" smh

[manic latch]

Even if you had 30k Me-262 to stop every bomber

Why people act like US wouldn't develop planes to counter it

As if only Germany is capable of jet planes

US was cooking something very large for 1946 projects

[manic latch]

Few hours left

[shut wren]

[spring briar]

I hope it fails

[shut wren]

Frenchie sabatoge

[ivory ridge]

[spring briar]

[ivory ridge]

[delicate beacon]

I should dig for Moniteur de la Flotte

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Pressure problem. Pressure valve is frozen

This is your fault

No launch today

[delicate beacon]

AANWEZIG:
Jrg. 1 (1854), nr. 1 t/m Jrg. 3 (1856), nr. 72.

[spring briar]

I’m proud

Spacex should focus on its falcon rockets

Not spaceshit

[ivory ridge]

Nationalize every elon musk company

It would be funny

Yes, including twitter

[manic latch]

Communist Undef

[delicate beacon]

"De La Gloire au Richelieu"

[manic latch]

@spring briar @tough quail

https://youtu.be/KoILzjpCU64

Finally 490

[ivory ridge]

No i just hate elon musk

[shut wren]

[spring briar]

[tough quail]

pen test, 490 vs elon

[dapper parcel]

You have to test the FTS too, y'now 😉

[manic latch]

[shut wren]

[runic prairie]

Imagine being a Sub skipper, going to the afterlife, only to find out that the MH-60 that dropped a torp on you was the Among Us MH-60.

This is psyops at its finest.

[deep apex]

When the sub submerges

HE VENTED HE VENTED

[runic prairie]

“We have transients bearing 112. Sierra 4 is acting kinda sus NGL.”

[lavish fable]

God I love the navy

[ivory ridge]

[shut wren]

[strong plank]

the triple mg ports

[runic prairie]

Dakka is important.

[desert agate]

did I miss any or is this good?

[shut wren]

Quick question uhh

Can I fit US ERA into a PLA tank ERA groves

[frigid karma]

How would you get your hands on one

And no

You can’t

[shut wren]

[shut wren]

Join PLA

And steal some US ERA

[manic latch]

You steal US ERA from PLA

I see

[shut wren]

Bruh no

Steal US ERa

And then join PLA

Maybe they do have US ERA there

[frigid karma]

I don’t think pla accepts corpses riddled with 5.56

Which is what you will become if you try stealing US era

[shut wren]

Ok ok

[desert agate]

I dunno man depends on their recruitment requirements

[shut wren]

Speaking of recruitment request

[desert agate]

I hear they're struggling for volunteers

[shut wren]

Requirements

They updated the war time conscription laws

[shut wren]

[frigid karma]

With china’s demographics?

Good luck

[desert agate]

thats kinda a huge part of the problem

most young people in China don't want to join the military because they're overeducated, and a good chunk of those who do, don't meet health standards

problem is only going to get worse going forward

[shut wren]

Ok start making people poor again

[desert agate]

obviously they can conscript in war time but conscript forces are lower quality and take time to train

[desert agate]

lol goodbye PRC then

[shut wren]

And making people have kids

[desert agate]

bit late for that one

[shut wren]

Make old PRC

Hopefully it works

[desert agate]

even if the CCP started literally forcing people to fuck as much as possible, the Chinese demographic collapse will still happen and will still be atrocious

add a bunch of kids who can't do anything productive and boom you've just made it worse and killed a bunch of children

they should have ended the one child policy at least a decade ago

preferably as early as the late 90s

[frigid karma]

They’re trying, bless them

[shut wren]

They should have never started it

[frigid karma]

Except people can’t fucking afford kids so if you make state mandated GFs everyone’s still going to end up broke

[desert agate]

they should have actually

[frigid karma]

No they shouldn’t

[desert agate]

it was a good idea for the time

[frigid karma]

Everyone in China considered it a fucking

Stupid

Idea

[desert agate]

doesnt matter what they think

Chinas an authoritarian state, the government doesnt need to give a fuck

[frigid karma]

China was more than capable of sustaining their population growth without a one child policy

Two was what they should’ve gone with

[desert agate]

fact is the Chinese population was set to grow considerably faster than the projected economic growth could have kept up with

[frigid karma]

Setting it at one perma fucked the demographics

[desert agate]

that population growth needed to be artificially reduced

[manic latch]

India never had such policy irrc. This likely saved them from such problem. I think they have highest fertility rate

[desert agate]

but it shouldn't have lasted more than a few years

[frigid karma]

The inertia that comes with brain dead policies like one child cannot be understated

[desert agate]

India has a very quickly declining fertility rate, all of the worlds highest fertility rates come from Africa and those too have dropped considerably

[frigid karma]

Also it just lead to a bunch of dead Chinese girls

Oh and if you were rich you just bought your way around it

[shut wren]

[frigid karma]

Welcome to authoritarian states

[desert agate]

and India has also utterly failed to have its economic growth catch up with its population growth thus significant parts of the population are in poverty

something which theyve only just started to fix in the last decade

[frigid karma]

India has its own problems rn

[shut wren]

I’m still hoping the demo crisis can be fixed

But uhhh

[frigid karma]

Anyways China should’ve never gone with 1 child policy, 2 would’ve been the right call

[desert agate]

as global manufacturing moves away from China, India is setting itself up to take over a good chunk of that manufacturing

therefore its economy has begun to climb very quickly in the last few years

[thorn trail]

only like 4-5 countries in Asia have fertility rates above average replacement rates

[frigid karma]

Don’t forget Africa

[manic latch]

I trust their young population which usually has most importance for future decades. Since Europe/Asia is getting damn old

[desert agate]

global fertility rates are in crisis

[frigid karma]

And that’s good

[thorn trail]

can we have your fertility rates. ours is growing rapidly

[frigid karma]

Where do you live

[desert agate]

Africa is trying but many economies are in dire straits and literally cant afford or are simply too unstable to bring on overseas manufacturing

[shut wren]

Give me that shit

[thorn trail]

🇵🇭

[desert agate]

it's not if you plan on living to retirement

[shut wren]

Pack your bags mfs we going to the the phillies

[frigid karma]

inshallah may your fertility rates reach 0 forever

[thorn trail]

pls do

[manic latch]

France is increasing retirement age because of this whole demo problem or they pay too much to retired?

[spring briar]

Yes

Retirement age in Belgium is 67

[manic latch]

Damn

[frigid karma]

Anyways, based on the Chinese families I know who grew up during the one child policy, they probably couldn’t have afforded more than 1 or 2 kids anyways

[desert agate]

I seriously doubt that we'll reach a post-scarcity global economy by the time gen Z hits retirement age, by extension declining global birth rates will be disastrous for the elderly and young alike as even in the richest countries, there wont be enough immigration to maintain services

[shut wren]

Somehow my family had 4 kids during this policy

[frigid karma]

Though it’s too hard to really speculate to that point

[desert agate]

effectively we will be like Japan but worldwide rather than localised, and failing to attract immigrants not because we dont want immigrants but because there aren't any immigrants

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

We are doomed

2050 will look horrible

[desert agate]

don't look forward to getting old, unless we hit post-scarcity in the next 50 years it'll be very shit

[shut wren]

[thorn trail]

I mean there are probably gonna be immigrants just not willingly. Climate refugees will probably force a lot of immigration from the tropics

[manic latch]

This

[desert agate]

again, that wont solve the fundamental issues of a seriously declining global birth rate

[frigid karma]

I’ll just dab up on soma

Wheee

[shut wren]

[chilly osprey]

You can't really deal with the falling fertility rate unless you make raising children cheaper.

But even beyond that, for parents there is also a time cost, and, to be blunt, a lot of people in developed countries don't have much interest in having kids not just because of financial reasons... but because they just don't want to have kids, and would rather focus on their careers, or just not settle down.

Which was usually not something you could afford to do in developing countries because your kids often were your insurance as to who was going to take care of you post retirement.

[spring briar]

Must… make…. Successor…

[ivory ridge]

https://vxtwitter.com/NichoConcu/status/1647936995820273664?t=O77bscQoSFv0aDSP2U6kbw&s=19

[ivory ridge]

when the tanker is sus

[frigid karma]

jerma tanker

[ivory ridge]

https://tenor.com/view/jerma-jerma-sus-jerma985-sus-jerma-jeremy-gif-25376340

[thorn trail]

You know how the USS Illinois in WoWs is an Iowa hull with 203mm guns? Were there any real proposition to make something like that

[delicate beacon]

Yes

Kentucky Scheme G and H

And another I think

[thorn trail]

anyone got any BPs? And was it only the US navy that did it or did anyone else plan to make something like that as well

[delicate beacon]

Basically Kentucky was mostly finished, but the war was over so... AA BB it is

[manic latch]

Fucking hate US BPs sometimes

Barely visible

[thorn trail]

I thought I got flashbanged with how faint the details are

[manic latch]

Yeah

[thorn trail]

only the US right?

none of the other navies had propositions like this?

[manic latch]

Making your BB into a Heavy cruiser?

Likely US only ye

[delicate beacon]

Only navy with an unfinisher BB after WW2 that didn't need it

Closest is UK with Vanguard

But they did the sane thing and used older compatible main battery and just had the rest be modernised.

As Lion?

Pretty sure she'd use the 16" Mk. III prior

[night heart]

Hey guys

[delicate beacon]

Lemmen check the blueprints in a minute

[night heart]

I heared some actuall documents were leaked in a minecraft server

Damn

Any one of you got some Intel what actually happened

[manic latch]

Google it

Shows everything

[night heart]

A lot has been removed

I cant find the documents, even on greenland

[manic latch]

Why do you want the documents

[thorn trail]

Why

[night heart]

To read

I thought they are just up there

[manic latch]

It's easy mod warn I would say

So no

[delicate beacon]

Just because they were leaked doesn't mean they've been declassified

[strong plank]

the information on those documents can and likely will cost people their lives

[thorn trail]

it probably already cost the lives of people

also why would we share classified documents here

[manic latch]

[night heart]

[delicate beacon]

Hm yeah Vanguard was designed for twin 15" as per 1941.
But back to the relevant point. What was her state around 1945

[manic latch]

Sweat saves blood, blood saves lives, but brains saves both.

-guy who lost

[night heart]

So sweat saves lives?

[manic latch]

It's more healthy yes

People sweat less since labor is getting more idle focus

[spring briar]

@spiral cedar

[spiral cedar]

Sounds like a good place to work

[spring briar]

only took ya

30 years

[spiral cedar]

https://tenor.com/view/its-been84years-titanic-rose-dawson-gif-5372593

[spring briar]

1860-1944

works out

[spiral cedar]

Indeed

[spring briar]

British AP shells awaiting examination ca.1912

[delicate beacon]

Examine!

This one... Cute
This one... Cute
This one... Cute

[spiral cedar]

This one…delay action! Rejected!

[delicate beacon]

*puts certified cutie sticker on them*

[spring briar]

This one... voids in the metal! Accepted!

Just look at the cap placement Jaba...

[night heart]

So they are useless ? I assume?

[spring briar]

[frigid karma]

it'll grow

give it some foreplay

[night heart]

[frigid karma]

[spring briar]

not useless, just
yeah nvm

[manic latch]

World if Richel was an armor simp not shell simp:

[spring briar]

yikes

imagine

[frigid karma]

[manic latch]

STOP THINKING

[frigid karma]

What if we covered radar instruments or other mission-killable instruments on the superstructure with armor that could be removed

[spring briar]

cursed world

[frigid karma]

see, the main problem with armoring ships these days is the ships get mission killed anyways

[spring briar]

[runic prairie]

Yes, it was the precursor to later guided missile designs given that its primary armament was to be the Zeus Guided anti-aircraft round.

[frigid karma]

but what if you could (temporarily) armor the mission-killable parts

[manic latch]

?

[runic prairie]

That’s just for sea-spray and the like.

[ivory ridge]

that's not armor

[runic prairie]

Not armored

[runic prairie]

It has to be Radar transparent

[manic latch]

So I wan to nerf radar?

[frigid karma]

like

removable

armor

[runic prairie]

Under attack you want your radars working

[spring briar]

btw krem
if armor is so good
then why

[manic latch]

Inferior armor

[frigid karma]

yeah, you just "button up" when the missile is close enough that interception is basically not possible

[spiral cedar]

Like a projectile that destroys the missile before it impacts

[manic latch]

Make better

[frigid karma]

No I want armored warships

I represent big armor

[manic latch]

Isn't that like 3-5 second reaction time at CIWS range

[runic prairie]

You’ve got bigger problems if that’s the case.

[frigid karma]

No no you see

ship want armor

ship with armor still get hit in radar by missile

armor radar when missile is close

now can armor ship

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-gear-rising-gif-18014317

[frigid karma]

https://tenor.com/view/ok-all-nice-gif-22927671

it's perfect

[runic prairie]

“Phalanx uses closed loop spotting and target prioritizing. The search radar identifies the target at 10 nautical miles and the software begins tracking. At the same time, the software compares the target track against its threat logic. The threat logic determines the pirority assigned to the target. Phalanx does not recognize an IFF (Identification Frend or Foe) signal from an on-board transponder on friendly aircraft. Instead, the target threat software makes the decision to engage or not and the priority of engagement.

Target assignment and priority are done at 5 miles and engagement begins at or about 2 miles. Once the software determines that the threat is in range, the gun opens fire. The tracking (fire control) radar monitors the outbound projectile stream. Closed loop spotting is used; that is, the outbound projectile stream is compared to the inbound target track and the gun drives are adjusted to move the projectile stream onto the target. Usually, the third projectile out the barrel is on target.

Phalanx considers the target "killed" when it disappears from the radar (blows up or crashes into the sea - a "hard kill") or if there is an abrupt change in target speed and direction that accompanies a breakup of the target's airframe (a "soft kill"). Once a hard or soft kill on the target is made, Phalanx will engage the next threat. Up to six threats can be processed at a time.”

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-103.php

[manic latch]

What about

Ability to hide the radar into superstructure

[runic prairie]

Phalanx CIWS

The reaction times are too low to know if something is going to hit.

[strong plank]

so you want mission-critical systems to have a delay before they can be used in combat?