history

[neon oyster]

Su47 looks way better 🗿

[manic latch]

Yeah

Sea Eagle died sadly

[frigid karma]

can the f15 do this

[shrewd pecan]

I mean

if you take the proposed naval one with variable swept wings

yeah

[neon oyster]

F15 doesn’t have Tom cruise

[shrewd pecan]

also the prototype later got 3D thrust vectoring

[manic latch]

Yosh

Shit wrong reply

[shrewd pecan]

the average F-4 pilot

[neon oyster]

F14 still cooler

[neon oyster]

Based

[shrewd pecan]

HOLD UP

WHAT DID I JUST FIND

[manic latch]

F-16

But Su-47 gf

[shrewd pecan]

why do I just have this ability to find the most obscure shit with basic google searches

[neon oyster]

Google is smart

[frigid karma]

you are learning how to become a programmer

[shrewd pecan]

that is true

👁️ 80% of programing is google

[neon oyster]

About 100 years of Royal Air Force aviation

[manic latch]

I also love how Soviets had their own F-16XL proposal

[shrewd pecan]

I would like it

if it wasn't for the air intakes

[manic latch]

[neon oyster]

And I thought the real su34 was ugly

[shrewd pecan]

its like

[spring briar]

@manic latch

[shrewd pecan]

you combined a F-16XL with a plane from Gundam

[manic latch]

Me everyday

[shrewd pecan]

there is only two Soviet planes I accept

[neon oyster]

Mig

[neon oyster]

Fencer is probably the worst Soviet plane for me

[shrewd pecan]

sorry its a F-111 but Soviet

I have to approve

[neon oyster]

Only flanker and mig29 are acceptable

[shrewd pecan]

literally gods greatest tank destroyer

[neon oyster]

Too bad it got retired

[neon oyster]

Mmm amram

[shrewd pecan]

in a ideal world the F-111 would of outlived the A-10

the LCS would of be canned for Spruance modernizations

[neon oyster]

Blame reformers

[shrewd pecan]

and the S-3 viking would of remained a ASW plane

[manic latch]

1980s

[neon oyster]

should just keep making Perry Olivers instead of lcs

[shrewd pecan]

we should of just made a new frigate

[manic latch]

Frigate

[neon oyster]

Allow me to introduce myself

[shrewd pecan]

a new frigate 30 years ago

[manic latch]

Decades late

[neon oyster]

Better late then never

That’s just usn procurement for the last 30 years

Try to make something new only to fail miserably and go back to what u already had

[manic latch]

Reminds me Tortoise vs Rabbit story ngl

Ye gave massive stop time for China

[neon oyster]

China is somewhat a joke still

[manic latch]

Never underestimate

[neon oyster]

Wake me up when their fleet leaves the South China Sea

[manic latch]

So out of all 1990 projects of Navy

I guess Ford was only good choice?

And Columbia

[neon oyster]

Ford was also kinda funni

But not disastrous

[manic latch]

Yeah...+20 new technology in single go

[neon oyster]

Now it’s very fine

[manic latch]

I won't agree until I see it launching F-35B

[neon oyster]

Funni how they just back peddled on jfk

[manic latch]

Her catapults can't handle F-35 and she is still using F-18 fleet so I don't know if its fixed or not

[neon oyster]

Really? 🗿

[cinder escarp]

I still cant believe we murdered the fremm just so it could be built in wisconsin.

[neon oyster]

Let me see

[manic latch]

Yup

She only has f18 and Awacs

[cinder escarp]

reminder of how we butchered it

[shrewd pecan]

anyways lemme make my personal list of procurement sins for the modern US Military

• early Spruance retirements
• M109 not being replaced until the 2020s
• no new frigate until the 2020s
• not motorizing artillery for Stryker brigades until the 2020s
• Taking 60+ years to actually make a light cav scout vehicle
• failure the modernize the F-22 until recently
• M113 not being replaced until the 2020s
• Bradley not being replaced until the late 2020s
• Not developing M1 thumper into a M1A3
• dropping SADARM
• taking 30 years to adopt a light tank
• Relegating stryker brigades to one division type and reducing overall Stryker brigades
• handling of CG(X) and Zumwalt
• not procuring ATACMS block II
• abandoning EFOGM
• repeatedly reducing capability on the Constellation class (removing the bow sonar)
• mishandling of the LCS program
• Navy 1990s aviation funding & spending (every program but super hornet failed)

[neon oyster]

Well jfk can at least

[manic latch]

Nimitz class can handle F35B ye

Ford can't since electro catapults

[shrewd pecan]

none of the Nimitz's or Fords can handle F-35Bs

[manic latch]

Wait

[frigid karma]

handling of CG(X) and Zumwalt should easily be a whole ass book

[neon oyster]

Why did they stop f22 production

[shrewd pecan]

stopping F-22 production made sense

[neon oyster]

Zummy is a joke

[manic latch]

Wait how Nimitz class is launching tjem

[shrewd pecan]

I was talking about F-22 modernization

[shrewd pecan]

because they use F-35Cs

[cinder escarp]

The constellations had to be built at marinette

[shrewd pecan]

also the carriers have to undergo modifications to utilize the F-35C

Ford hasn't undergone said modifications yet

[cinder escarp]

And marinette is on a very shallow river

[shrewd pecan]

JFK will

[cinder escarp]

That is why the sonar dome got cut off

[shrewd pecan]

it boggles my mind how the hell Wisconsin managed to get a shipyard with actual military contracts

[manic latch]

Ah shit I confuse the vtol one with catapult one

Ford can't handle F35C*

[neon oyster]

They already signed a contract to modify ford it seems

[cinder escarp]

Also, the hangup on ford for F-35s has to do with catapult calibration and blast deflector timings. It's not a major change needed.

[manic latch]

No new catapults?

[neon oyster]

Why didn’t they have it in the first place?

[shrewd pecan]

its the first carrier with EMALs so early adopters tax pretty much

[cinder escarp]

It was pushed back because the Ford F-150 is so very far behind schedule there was a bit of a rush to get it on deployment even if only with superbugs

[manic latch]

Damn

[frigid karma]

the truck?

[manic latch]

Raptor gang

https://tenor.com/view/ford-f150raptor-drift-drifting-truck-trucks-gif-23658760

[shrewd pecan]

the modern American pickup truck is a disaster and a disgrace to past pickup trucks

[manic latch]

I would still sleep with Raptor

[shrewd pecan]

they made pickup trucks from being practical reasonably sized vehicles

to oversized SUVs with less storage space in the rear than their past smaller versions

[neon oyster]

It’s American of course it big

[shrewd pecan]

WHAT WENT WRONG?!

[manic latch]

Japan

[neon oyster]

Not obese enough

[shrewd pecan]

the American pick up truck makers are the main ones inflating the size

there pushing pick up trucks now that the oversized SUV market has hit its height

[manic latch]

Ford Country Squire was the best family car in existence

[shrewd pecan]

personally biggest I'd go for a city car is a Honda CRV

kinda wish station wagons were still a thing in the states

[strong plank]

Ya know

Surplus humvees are road legal in several states

[shrewd pecan]

Volvo's ones look nice

yeah but humvees get horrible gas mileage

[strong plank]

Yes but if you and 2-3 friends each get one

[shrewd pecan]

GOOD 8 MILES PER GALLOON

[strong plank]

You can roll up to another friend’s house and make them shit themselves

[shrewd pecan]

also there huge

[manic latch]

https://tenor.com/view/abell46s-reface-mad-max-fury-road-guitar-gif-18617022

[shrewd pecan]

tho I do have to say

if I were to go with a humvee I'd probably go full death upon roll over mode

[manic latch]

Traffic menace

Safer than Cybertruck

[strong plank]

Man

Any time I see someone driving a jeep like that

No doors and all

I just imagine them driving to get groceries and taking a hard turn

[manic latch]

I don't like boxes since it makes crashes more uhh knife like

[shrewd pecan]

DEATH BEFORE DISMOUNT!

DEATH UPON ROLL OVER!

tho personally I vibe with the soft top humvees

since if I'm buying a humvee

it is not a sensible purchase in the first place

then again the LMTVs always a option

[manic latch]

Bruh how are these civilian

[shrewd pecan]

that picture isn't civilian

[frigid karma]

the machine gun

[shrewd pecan]

tho nothings stopping you from doing a surplus LMTV like that here in the US

[manic latch]

Good thing cars didn't existed during founding fathers

Legalize civilian MBTs

[shrewd pecan]

from what I've heard and seen surplus LMTVs apparently go for decently affordable prices

mainly since ones with basic fixable issues keep being thrown up at incredibly cheap prices on auction since the agency that handles surplus equipment auctions is lazy

[manic latch]

Kamaz style ye

Cute

[manic latch]

...
Can you buy Oshkosh?

[shrewd pecan]

surplus HEMTTs and LMTVs are on the market

chances are within the next 10 years the army's gonna be dumping the current HEMTT fleet since there currently holding a competition to replace it

[neon oyster]

lel

[shrewd pecan]

🤨 tho I'm largely guessing the HEMTT replacement is gonna just be another HEMTT

[manic latch]

I really love this girl

[desert agate]

Indonesia just accepted Australias donation of 15 Bushmasters after about 18 months of deliberations

[manic latch]

[shrewd pecan]

the HEMTT replacement program is literally between

a newer HEMTT

a MAN truck

and a bunch of other competitors that don't matter

[manic latch]

Hemmt still being used since 1982

Top G

[manic latch]

Ugly

[shrewd pecan]

its newer models being used at this point

https://dsm.forecastinternational.com/wordpress/2023/01/31/army-awards-common-tactical-truck-ctt-prototype-contracts-to-four-competitors/

ok I sleep

[unreal elbow]

Got myself this beauty

[manic latch]

Bronze Pestalozzi Medal for Faithful Services

Bronze Medal For Faithful Service in the National People's Army Reserve

Bronze Artur Becker Medal

Nice nice

[unreal elbow]

For sure

I got it for quite cheap tho

Around 100 dollars

[desert agate]

https://twitter.com/ron_eisele/status/1643330798504820737?s=20

Ron Eisele (@ron_eisele)

De Havilland Sea Hornet, heading for a mishap.

Likes

235

Twitter · Apr 4, 2023, 7:12 PM

https://twitter.com/extremecompute/status/1643333931050192903?s=20

Frank Leonhardt (@extremecompute)

@ron_eisele This was Lt Andy Hamilton "landing" VR885/452 on HMS Implacable on the 7th Feb 1950.
Apparently it bounced over most of it, hit a Bofors Gun on the island and collided with another Hornet (VR853/458) parked on deck. Only minor injuries to Lt Hamilton, and he was flying next day.

Twitter · Apr 4, 2023, 7:25 PM

[silver crest]

man

woodrow wilson was racist

like really racist

like klansman-level racist

[shut wren]

[quick shard]

hat

[spring briar]

[manic latch]

Random IB fan moment

[spring briar]

It’s not even real

Just a shitty repro

[shut wren]

It looks cap

[delicate beacon]

Is that an RAF logo with a swastika

[plucky wyvern]

there was once a naval battle between Vichy France and Thailand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ko_Chang

HTMS Thonburi vs Lamotte-Piquet

[deep apex]

No it would've had a crown on it

[sullen canyon]

So does this mean this dude served Germany and England at the same time then?

If not, then they ruined a good cap

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5H2m6a3Ypw

[quick shard]

chocolate guys?

[orchid notch]

Maybe

[slow raft]

British officer's caps didn't have a roundel in the cockade as far as I can tell, the crown was the most popular motif.
The German/Wehrmacht cockade was not far removed from the one they used in WWI, really.

[slow raft]

I have a Kriegsmarine Kapitanleutnant's cap with the white cover made by Erel Sonderklasse, the original manufacturer, but it's a repro. This looks like the same kind of quality, though I had to remove the wire by hand and crush the stiffener on the peak to get the correct effect.

I'm sure you're aware that the market is currently flooded with shitty repros

and has been and will be in perpetuity

the good news is that if you're reenacting germans for events, you don't really have to worry about paying top dollar for nazi stuff, you can find decent repros of anything you need at very fair prices.
The bad news is that if you're a big fan of real nazi stuff your best bet is to go look at it in a museum.

(hell, some museums have repros aged to look proper for certain items)

[slow raft]

I've never been on the P-51 bandwagon, P-47 all the way baby

[quick shard]

Jesus thats alot for just a single hat

[autumn sorrel]

I am bored, anyone have some obscure and wacky ship design or plan?

[heavy bay]

North Carolina preliminary scheme F is always fun

[autumn sorrel]

Seem wacky enough

[spring briar]

Reenacting germans for events

[tough quail]

true

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91Aqd9GXpA4

[slow raft]

I don't exactly enjoy the idea of folks playing as nazis but here in the US it's not uncommon for reenactments

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KMLo1rREfs

[spring briar]

[cerulean ice]

East German military uniform
this beauty
Bro
Somehow this feels worse than seeing someone post a 3rd Reich uniform

[slow raft]

I'm shocked this isn't more common knowledge. Almost every year a D-day reenactment takes place in Pennsylvania where guys dress up as paratroopers and guys dress up as fallschirmjagers and Heer and they all shoot blanks at each other for 2 days.

[cerulean ice]

Well yea, just like in video games, someone has to play the other side

regardless of their moral status in the wider scope

I'v been dressed as a Swedish XVII century soldier once, not for reconstruction though, bug historical context

[slow raft]

Bingo. I was a paratrooper in the 101st one year and had a ball

Shooting Germans from Kentucky and New Jersey :V

[cerulean ice]

that said
"The bad news is that if you're a big fan of real nazi stuff"
If someone is "a big fan" I got way worse news for them than uniform availability

[slow raft]

Lmao, I like to think I got pretty good at dancing around that

[frigid karma]

Hi fox

[cerulean ice]

competitions in mental gymnastics in some of those people are fairly high-level ones, if you catch my drift

[frigid karma]

Civil war reenactors are more common in the us I think

And considerably more stupid, thank lost cause for that

https://youtu.be/wjs68UszPh4

[spring briar]

Just be unionist

[slow raft]

I know a lot of guys that have loads of time and money and do Revolutionary war, Civil, WWI and II

[spring briar]

Real G’s reenact crimea war

[frigid karma]

It’s a shame because a lot of confederate campaigns were really successful it’s just the average confederate supporter is

[slow raft]

You can respect the ability of the Confederate military while also knowing they were on the wrong side and lost and that them losing was a good thing

[spring briar]

Yes

[cerulean ice]

Which one

[spring briar]

Sadly the majority of reenactors do it to fulfil their own althistory fanfic

[spring briar]

The old one

[slow raft]

Unfortunately some folks have family trees that are shaped like a wreath and think they should have won

[frigid karma]

Just call them Mississippians

[cerulean ice]

I mean which of the old ones (although I think only one of those was called "the" Crimean War, jokes aside?)

[spring briar]

The 1850’s one

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzzsNuWlyHc

[frigid karma]

Speaking of nazis

[cerulean ice]

cha cha real smooth

[frigid karma]

Image is sort of self explanatory

I’d fuck with that gun tho

[spring briar]

Don’t let horse and krem see this

[slow raft]

The T-34 was a fine tank as long as you didn't have to go far or see out of it

[shrewd pecan]

Confederate military ability has been something

always comically overstated

especially when it comes to figures like Lee who arguably lost the Confederacy the war due to a variety of mistakes, failures to take advantage of certain situations alongside a failure to realize the type of war he was fighting

[deep apex]

The first thing I saw there was the stormtroopers

So that's what I thought it was about

[shrewd pecan]

the failure of the droid army

https://youtu.be/O1MQflqi2VM

[strong plank]

lost-causers can cry all they want

they can't un-burn down Georgia

[frigid karma]

Rebel tears

[shut wren]

[delicate forge]

Cursed F-104

[thorn trail]

hold on Mach 2.5 with that design

How

Just how

I cannot see that as being stable for high supersonic speed

Ah wait

I can see how

and it's not brute forced

there's actually some pretty interesting engineering just from the ones you sent

for example the reason why one side is longer

is for the area rule

yeah there's also some interesting ways to follow the area rule here

but still

do not want to be the one in this plane

you said they had the flaps designed so the engines blow on it at slow speed. Funny use of the Coanda effect

afaik the only plane I know rn that uses the Coanda effect like this is the C-17

jet flaps

oh god

[wintry moat]

But I don’t actually know what armor scheme hood had

[thorn trail]

Oh jet flaps

60s jet design was

interesting

[wintry moat]

was she apart of the Distributed or Turtleback or did she actually have All or Nothing?

[thorn trail]

pretty sure Hood was mostly All or Nothing

[lapis delta]

She had close to no armor except her belt iirc. Turtle back was never accepted by the Brits because the tea maker wouldn't fit like that

[wintry moat]

also, claiming it was incompetence for the loss of Hood is a bit weird

They lost Radar contact with Bismarck after Suffolk got a little too close

[thorn trail]

@spiral cedar they're talking about Hood armor. Can you expound more

[spring briar]

No

[wintry moat]

she had a 12 inch angled belt armor

So basically the same thickness as QE

[spring briar]

And a 7” upper belt

With a thin bulkhead that some erroneously call a turtleback

[wintry moat]

altho QE was slabsided

Wasn't hoods planned retrofit to help update her deck armor?

[lapis delta]

Still part of the belt

So where was I wrong?

[thorn trail]

No

[spring briar]

No

[lapis delta]

I never said which belt and both can be called belt

[spiral cedar]

http://www.navweaps.com/index_nathan/HOOD 1919 Armor Tests.pdf

[spring briar]

Don’t dig yourself deeper with shit excuses

[wintry moat]

There a decent distinction between the Belt and the Belt Extended

[spiral cedar]

What's the question about? I'd like some context

[thorn trail]

How Hood died to Bismarck

[spiral cedar]

Ah

Two theories are most likely

[thorn trail]

iirc that was the original debate in #al-general before Silent told them to move here

[lapis delta]

I only said hood had almost no armor apart from the belt

[spring briar]

Which isn’t true

[spiral cedar]

Well that's wrong yeah

[spring briar]

Because there’s also the 5” side plating above the 7”
Then the thinner belt extensions

[cerulean ice]

what does tea maker has to do with it anyways

[spiral cedar]

a) shot that passed above main belt (through upper belt) and then struck the sloped deck near the machinery to enter near her 4" magazines
b) shot that struck the lower edge of her belt after a very short underwater travel and entered inside the hull close to the magazines

[cerulean ice]

this isn't a tank, a ship is a big bigger than a large car

[lapis delta]

Running gag from tanker community, the Brits always had a water heater somewhere and had some... Creative solutions to make them fit

[cerulean ice]

see this

[spiral cedar]

Here's her armor layout

Just from the side view, not including deck armor

[thorn trail]

Jaba what does your name reference. Which ships armor is it referring to

[spiral cedar]

She was well armored by WWI standards, but like many non-"All or Nothing" designs she had weak points where unusual trajectories could bypass most of the armor

[spring briar]

Bisko

[spiral cedar]

[thorn trail]

hold on Bisko had 80mm deck armor

?

[spiral cedar]

The most likely causes of her loss are both cases where a shell bypasses most of her armor protection due to the non-comprehensive nature of the armor philosophy used at the time

[spiral cedar]

Over machinery, 50mm upper deck and 80mm main armor deck

[lapis delta]

That's why a retrofit Was proposed

[spiral cedar]

Over mags, 50mm upper and 95mm main

[spring briar]

The retrofit would have done little to actually improve the side armor protection

[lapis delta]

Let's just say: battle cruisers died out for a reason

[spring briar]

No their concept simply was incorporated into fast battleships

[spiral cedar]

The KGV class was originally classified as battlecruisers by the RN when first built

Since 28 knots was enough to call them battlecruisers by the definitions they used at the time

[spring briar]

[lapis delta]

Which is unfair to such a....... Let's say complexly armored ship

[spring briar]

[spiral cedar]

Only if you define a battlecruiser to have poor armor protection

I would say, you do not have to

[lapis delta]

Isn't that kind of what battle cruisers were meant to be?
Heavy naval guns with the concept of valuing speed over protection?

[spiral cedar]

Also I wouldn't call KGV a particularly complex armor scheme

[spiral cedar]

Have you seen German WWI battlecruisers

[lapis delta]

Germans always have their own weird naming schemes when it comes to designations.

[cerulean ice]

from what I seen Battlecruisers were sort of a product of their time, when one had to pick between certain traits due to limitations (including production cost)
which for Prussians was "guns for speed" and for British "armour for speed" in simplified terms

but then technology and doctrine development and stuff basically superseded it all with "fast battleship"

[lapis delta]

Well it isn't if you don't count the fresh water tanks

[spiral cedar]

Battlecruisers are meant to be fast capital ships, but you don't always give up armor to do it. If you're British you might, but the Germans just made them bigger, with roughly similar guns and armor as their battleships. The extra displacement just went to speed

Hood followed the same philosophy, about the same armor and guns but much more displacement to get the speed

(kinda)

It's just that WWI armor schemes won't do well against WWII shells in general

Not that Hood was a BC

[lapis delta]

And her retrofit was supposed to up her armour in exchange for some speed, although the power plant was supposed to be changed too, right?

[spiral cedar]

Warspite could have been in her place and she'd have blown up about as easily

[spring briar]

The only obvious differences between hood and german battlecruisers are the lack of a fully armoured waterline and lack of a turtleback
Which is compensated by the angled belt

[spiral cedar]

This was done for the battleships as well

[cerulean ice]

nah, because Warspoot wouldn't have been hit by such a lucky shell because she is based

[spiral cedar]

See the Standards adding an extra 2 inches of deck armor in their refits and losing like half a knot

[lapis delta]

Lucky ship hitting the longest range ship to ship shell in WW2 iirc

[thorn trail]

hold on how possible is it to refit a BB to be way faster

[lapis delta]

On a moving target*

[spiral cedar]

The longest range confirmed direct hit, yes, tied with Scharnhorst's shot on Glorious

[spring briar]

Difficult to do without lengthening the ship

[thorn trail]

oh right physics

[spring briar]

Even with improved machinery

[spiral cedar]

Yamato notably scored a damaging near miss on White Plains at over 30k

[spring briar]

Length to beam ratio is critical

[lapis delta]

Only CV to ever be sunk by BBs (what even ARE the Scharnhorsts???)

[spring briar]

Battleships built by germany

[spiral cedar]

And depending on who you ask, Massachusetts may have a claim to a direct hit at 28k. But that's more debatable

[cerulean ice]

Warships, that for sure

[thorn trail]

Ok wait what again was the misconception regarding their armor

[spring briar]

And thus they incorporated german ideas

[spiral cedar]

Brits originally called them BCs (due to speed) but after the war considered them BBs

[thorn trail]

like what was wrong with the commonly quoted belt armor iirc

[spiral cedar]

People often state they had 350mm belts instead of the actual 320mm

[thorn trail]

why 350mm

[spiral cedar]

Because a book by Breyer said 350mm

[spring briar]

Typo by groner

[lapis delta]

Thank you, I thought they were BBs until AL came along and screwed with my conception

[spiral cedar]

Groner, right

[spring briar]

Oh breyer

Oh groner

[spiral cedar]

Wait

[spring briar]

I dont remeber

[spiral cedar]

[spring briar]

One of the two

[cerulean ice]

they are Battlecruisers

[thorn trail]

was wondering because 350mm would make them have thicker armor than the Bisko's

[spiral cedar]

Ask Silver, he knows

[thorn trail]

@eternal veldt

[spiral cedar]

The Scharns do actually have better average deck protection than Bismarck

[thorn trail]

why was that

[spring briar]

But man

[spiral cedar]

The edges of their decks go up to 105mm

Even if the middle portion is the same thickness

So on average they have more deck protection

The Bismarcks went for steeper deck slopes and a thicker upper belt, which reflects a higher priority of stopping hits from the sides and a lower priority of stopping bombs

[spring briar]

11” guns
With an even smaller burster than an average 11” to compensate for the longer windshield.

[spiral cedar]

H-39, of course, reversed this trend

[lapis delta]

Bisko is kind of the embodiment of German engineering:
Complicated, some things were forgotten, some things are just best of their class and others just plain stupid

[thorn trail]

what was actually the fastest firing main gun relative to its size

[spring briar]

What is the best of their class?

Cruising Range?

[cerulean ice]

Bismarck is the best of Bismarck-class Battleship

obviously

[lapis delta]

Power plant iirc

IF it worked

[cinder escarp]

Bismarck isn't even the best bisko

[spring briar]

[spiral cedar]

Probably Nagato's gun? 41cm but with a minimum loading cycle of like 26s because they managed to get it down to single stroke ram. Practical rate of fire was lower ofc

[cinder escarp]

Tirpitz had several improvements

[lapis delta]

Yeah, owing to her being built later and living longer

[thorn trail]

actually was wondering why most nations use cm in guns but some use inches

[spring briar]

Man has never heard about Sural boilers or general electric turbines

How can a man live

[spiral cedar]

Switch to metric varied by country

[lapis delta]

Are you American?

[cinder escarp]

The Kreigsmarine never really built classes for their cruisers and above. Basically every ship was slightly different.

[cerulean ice]

because most of the world uses metric lmao

[thorn trail]

No. SEA

[spiral cedar]

Japan used imperial up to the 20s and then switched to metric

[lapis delta]

Some countries use metric, other imperial.
US and Brits used imperial (Russians too for some reason) and the rest used metric
In ww2

[spiral cedar]

The US uses US customary units, not imperial

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_imperial_and_US_customary_measurement_systems

[cerulean ice]

better question is what the heck of a width measurement is a pounder

[cinder escarp]

The US units are indeed different from Imperial, because our units are basically frozen in time from the late 1700s.

While the brits continued to change slightly

[lapis delta]

Isn't length the exact same though?

[cinder escarp]

Yeah back in the day cannon were usually designed based on weight of shell/shot

[spiral cedar]

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-097.php

Pounder conversions

[thorn trail]

hold on why was pounder a measure for guns

[spiral cedar]

Cannon days

[spring briar]

Diameter of a lead ball

[lapis delta]

Because Brits

Who else called their guns xx pounder???

[thorn trail]

when did the British stop using pounders

[cinder escarp]

A lot of the oddball French calibers came when they when they went to caliber measurements instead of weight... and instead of designing new guns kept the old shell sizes.

[spring briar]

Eg. A 2 pounder means that the diameter of the barrel has the same diameter as a 2 pound lead ball

Quite a comprehensive unit for cannons using round shot

[thorn trail]

another question. which AP shell was theoretically the best among all the ww2 BBs

[lapis delta]

That's debatable

[spring briar]

14.96” Mle.1943

[lapis delta]

Iirc, the best were considered to be the American heavy ap she'll, the type 91 of the Japanese and I can't remember the amalgamation of short forms the Germans used for theirs

[cinder escarp]

The 138.6mm bore you see on a lot of french guns was taken straight from the old 18 pounder cannons.

[ivory ridge]

https://twitter.com/SaltyFrenchBoi/status/1643669065817366543

Salty_French_Boi (@SaltyFrenchBoi)

Wehraboos actually believe in this shit

Likes

914

Twitter · Apr 5, 2023, 5:36 PM

[spring briar]

Type 91

No

Not even the newer type 1

German shells were good but the base plug was a fuck

[spiral cedar]

Wait, I wrote up a whole thing on shells

[cinder escarp]

Type 91 greatest shell in world (for the one in a million underwater hit)

[lapis delta]

I didn't say which ones of them were the objectively best, they were just what I remembered to be called the best

[spiral cedar]

Let me copy paste

Shells are a complicated topic, so it's important to separate out some parameters for the discussion.

First of all, like most things in naval engineering, nearly everything comes with a trade-off. So some design decisions will have advantages in some aspects but disadvantages in others. Different navies will prioritize different aspects, causing asymmetric outcomes that make direct comparison of a single parameter misleading as to actual utility in battle.

Second, there are many types of shells, with varying designations in every navy. I will keep things simple by laying out a few general types, and then picking out two primary classes of shells to compare and contrast.

Third, shells are intimately tied up in the guns they are fired from, which are inherently dependent on the turrets and mountings they operate in, which are of course directed by the fire control systems of the ship they are installed in, etc. I will do my best to isolate the shells from the other systems in play, but be sure to keep in mind that the shells in isolation will not give a complete picture of the actual effectiveness of a ship's firepower.

We will start off by dividing shells into categories. While there are a wide variety—starshells, incendiary AA shells, practice shells, common shells, ASW shells, etc. I will focus on two main types: AP type shells (armor piercing) and HE type shells (high explosive). SAP type shells, while widespread, were inconsistently defined and utilized and thus are poor choices for comparison, unlike AP and HE type shells which practically every nation used widely and consistently.

We can also look at some factors separate from shell type, such as the type of explosive filler used (which usually, though not always, remained consistent from one shell to the next within a navy).

Britain, Germany, France, and Italy used TNT, which we will take as our baseline explosive. Unlike older explosive fillers (especially picric acid, aka Lyddite), TNT could be sufficiently stabilized and cushioned to avoid instantaneous detonation upon impact, making it suitable for delay action. However, it still needed to be cushioned and desensitized, which took up extra volume in the shell—beeswax, felt, plaster, and cardboard being commonly used. In general, the German (and probably Italian) method gave about 80-85% TNT-equivalent cavity efficiency, and the British (and probably French) method gave about 90% TNT-equivalent cavity efficiency.

The US used Explosive D, or Dunnite, as its shell filler. Explosive D was insensitive enough that it needed no cushioning or desensitizing agent at all, at the cost of being only 90% as powerful as TNT. Thus the US method gave about 90% TNT-equivalent cavity efficiency. It was also probably the safest shell filler used in the period, in terms of avoiding accidental or sympathetic detonation.

Japan used TNA, or Trinitroanisole, as its shell filler. While about 5% more powerful than TNT, it was significantly more sensitive and needed much more cushioning to attain successful delay action—thus despite being a more powerful explosive, the actual TNT-equivalent cavity efficiency was only 63-70%. Its toxicity made it rather dangerous to handle or inhale.

By midwar the US and UK were seeking more powerful explosive fillers for their AA shells to improve aircraft kill rates. The UK used a beeswax and RDX mixture in its 40mm AA ammunition, and the US used a different wax desensitizer for its RDX filler in its AA ammunition (up to 5"). RDX is about 90% more powerful than TNT, so with the desensitizing agents it's about 170% TNT equivalent—a significant improvement in lethal radius against aircraft.

Let's look at HE shells now. Base-fuzed HE is typically delay-fuzed and used against both unarmored and very lightly armored targets. Nose-fuzed HE is generally used against unarmored targets and usually given an instantaneous fuze (for surface targets) or a time-delay fuze (for aerial targets). Proximity fuzes, a midwar invention, are special nose fuzes for HE for AA purposes.

Broadly speaking, more explosive filler is better for HE shells when shooting at surface targets—they do their damage predominantly through blast effect, so the greatest amount of filler means the most convertible chemical energy being delivered to the target volume. Fragmentation is a crucial factor for downing aerial targets, but it's a much more complicated factor than you can easily obtain from "paper" stats so we will be ignoring fragmentation for HE shells for now.

[spring briar]

And then there’s the 380mm Mle.1936, which gets everything

[spiral cedar]

Let's turn now to burster sizes for various navies. Unfortunately, data for some shells is just unavailable, so I will have to speak in rough trends. In general, US HE type shells (High Capacity, or HC, in USN designation) had a consistently high % of explosive filler, usually a bit over 8% Explosive D by weight. Only slightly behind, on average, are German and British HE, usually in the 6.5-9% range. French HE seems to follow a similar pattern, but there is less concrete data on their HE shell burster weights so it's harder to be sure. Italian HE seems to trend lower, but there are considerable holes and variations in the data that again make it harder to be sure. Finally Japanese HE definitively trends the lowest, usually settling in the 4.5-6% range (more similar to SAP in most navies!). In general I don't think the differences in burster weight between US, UK, German, and (maybe) most French HE make much practical difference. Italian HE may be at a slight disadvantage, but it's mostly Japanese HE that has serious burster deficiencies.

The next factor is fuzing. In general, base fuzes cut into burster weight (the comparisons above were all for nose fuzed HE only), for the trade-off of being able to explode inside the target instead of in contact with the exterior of the target (no big hole letting in air or water, but less blast energy vents into open air outside the ship). Nose fuzes are generally very reliable, both impact and time-delay, so I won't bother to distinguish between those of various navies. The US and UK use of proximity fuzes gave them considerable advantages in AA work, though time-delay fuzes remained a necessary supplement. US HC shells also featured a unique safety feature, the ADF (Auxiliary Detonating Fuze), which acted as a backup safety precaution, significantly reducing the chance of handling errors causing a mishandled or dropped shell to explode (with an unintended side benefit of slightly increasing the size of holes caused by instantaneous-fuzed HC shells).

Now let's pivot to AP type shells. These are inherently more complicated than most HE shells of the era, and had more variation as a result, so I will attempt to cover important areas of difference while avoiding excessive detail.

The main comparison categories here will be penetration (at various obliquities), fuzing, damage, and aerodynamics. Because factors such as danger space, time of flight, striking velocity, angle of fall, etc. are more determined by the gun than the shell, I will deliberately be leaving them out (one shell could be fired out of several different guns with differing muzzle velocities).

Broadly speaking, the 1944+ US AP shells have the greatest penetration. Early war US AP shells generally performed fine (their AP caps were slightly softer than the international average, giving slightly worse low-obliquity performance against facehardened armor but slightly better performance against homogeneous armor), but the late war modifications featured improved toughness and (for cruiser calibers) greatly increased cap hardness. Their main advantage throughout the war was a higher required manufacturing standard for impact obliquity (achieved through full-sheath hardening)—1-caliber thickness at 35-40 deg from perpendicular, as opposed to the usual 1-cal 30 deg standard internationally. Japan lagged behind in this regard, as it did not update its obliquity requirements since the 1920s British standards it had inherited—0.67 cal at just 20 deg.

There were also some other national peculiarities. British AP-type shells (APC in British designation) were designed with unusually soft middle and lower bodies to avoid cracking and shatter that might damage the fuzes. This worked well for moderate-thickness plates and at lower obliquities, but at high obliquities or against very thick plates, the shells had a tendency to "bend" and thus fail to penetrate—forming rather unique-looking crescent-shapes that, oddly enough, sometimes were still "fit to burst." British shell manufacturer Cardonald, late in the war, started producing some APC with sheath hardening rather than the "layer cake" hardening of the other manufacturers, but because British shell regulations did not distinguish between manufacturers when delivered to the fleet, there was no real way to know at sea where any particular shell came from.

French shells (and shells from one British manufacturer, Firth) had a slight disadvantage against horizontal homogeneous armor (e.g. decks, turret roofs) due to their more rounded AP cap design making it harder to initially "dig" into homogeneous armor plate at high obliquity.

[spring briar]

[spiral cedar]

Next, fuzing. German shells generally come out at the bottom here, as Krupp had a tendency to consistently ignore reports of dud shells. Dud rates were very high, across multiple battles and years of war, suggesting deficient fuze design (aka not the result of using slave labor later in the war). British fuze reliability, by contrast, comes out on top, using a special "Hadfield relief plug" to give the maximal protection to the fuze for reliable post-penetration detonation. The US for its first year of war had issues with duds because of corrosive fumes from Explosive D degrading the fuzes in hot weather over time, but this was resolved by 1943 by dipping the fuzes in plastic. The French used a dual action fuze that would theoretically allow for different fuze delays against different impact types, though the actual reliability of the fuze in practice is unclear (the USN designed and rejected a similar fuze design in the interwar period over reliability issues). In terms of fuze delay, the British probably had the shortest with 0.025s, whereas most other navies had delays in the 0.03-0.04s range (Germany 0.035s, US 0.033s for example). Japan, due to its diving shell design (described later), used 0.08s on its 15.5cm APC and 0.4s (!) on 20cm and larger APC. All these are average delays—shells will detonate earlier or later based off a bell curve. Britain's shorter than average delay would thus, on average, give a somewhat reduced chance to reach vitals at lower decks than other navies, while Japan's excessive delays would significantly increase the rate of overpenetrations.

Then comes the question of damage. This is, again, a complex topic, so we will explain our model first. AP shells have thick shell walls that are turned into a substantial mass of fragments upon detonation of the explosive filler. Thus, the contribution from fragments is very important in how AP shells deal damage. For a given total shell weight, a greater % of explosive filler will increase blast damage, but will require a larger cavity, meaning less mass of fragments and thus somewhat reduced total fragmentation, albeit somewhat faster fragments on average as well. However, for a heavier shell of a given diameter (i.e. a longer shell), there is more mass of middle body material that will be turned into fragments, thus increasing fragment quantity. Looking at the literature, a good "simple" model of AP shell damage gives damage increasing by the square root of filler mass and the ⅔ power of total mass (though, again, a full model would require far more parameters and would vary by hit location—we just want a good approximation for now).

Broadly speaking, British AP tends to hit slightly above its weight tier, as they tend to use about 2.5% filler compared to 1.5-2% in most other navies. Their shell weights vary but tend to be average to heavy (Nelson 16" being unusually light). German shells tend to fall into the 2-2.5% range, only slightly behind, but are lighter shells than average, reducing fragment effect. French shells are broadly similar to British shells in burster and weight, but care should be taken because some French ships (and some British as well) didn't carry AP type shells at all, only SAP type shells, which tend to carry 4-6% filler at the cost of armor penetration ability. Italian shells varied considerably, from slightly above average for 8" shells (2.9%) to substantially below average for 15" shells (1.1%), and many of their bursters are simply unknown. Their shells tended to be average weight. US AP shells tended to use less filler (1.4-1.5%), but many ships used "superheavy" shells that were roughly 30% heavier (and thus longer), compensating for somewhat less blast damage with more fragment damage. Japanese AP type shells varied across the typical range, from 1.5-2.5% filler, and were generally of average weight.

In terms of 'aerodynamics' (really exterior ballistics), two navies stand out the most—France and Japan, which both used boat-tails on their shells, coupled with longer windscreens on France's shells and Japan's Type 1 shells introduced during the war, to increase range. The cost of this, in theory, is somewhat wider dispersion, but it does not seem to have been a limiting factor for either navy—other factors, especially as turrets and gun details, dominated dispersion. While the USSR also used this shell form, I'm not including the USSR in this analysis.

Then we have special details of performance. First, dye bags, which help with distinguishing the origin of splashes from one friendly ship to another. The Italians and (as far as I'm aware) Germans did not use dye bags. The US had been using dye bags for decades by the time WWII started, but changed their system early in the war by adding holes in the windscreens so that water would flow in easier, making for better dye distribution. Japan used dye bags as well in their wartime Type 1 shells, with a specially loosened windscreen (for diving purposes, see below). The French had a unique system containing a small explosive charge in the windscreen, so that when the shell hit the water or a ship, there would be a small flash that would both ensure dispersion of dye as well as provide a visual "hit" indicator in night actions (shells that explode inside the ship often don't cause external visible effects from a distance), the so-called "K" dye bag system. The British acquired the system early in the war, and by midwar their shells used the same system, adding a few pounds to the weights of their shells.

The most outstanding remaining feature is diving capability. In the interwar period the threat of shells going underwater and reaching a ship's vitals by passing under the belt was recognized as a serious threat—few ships had deep enough belts to protect against them, and damage could be considerable. Many navies flirted with intentionally making shells dive, but only two dedicated to the concept—Japan and France.

Japan focused on diving capability ever since the late 20s (in contrast to the lack of interest in improving armor penetration!), and devised an effective system. As flat-nosed projectiles exhibit good stability in underwater trajectories, the Japanese split their AP caps into a pointed upper section and a flat-nosed lower section, then lightly screwed the windscreen onto the upper section. Upon hitting any surface (ideally water), the windscreen and "cap head" would be knocked off, leaving the flat front of the lower AP cap to provide a stable underwater trajectory. This degraded penetration capability slightly, but the Japanese considered the trade worthwhile. This flat-nosed design also had the curious effect of making it somewhat superior against moderate thickness lower deck armor. It should be noted that Japanese cruiser-caliber "AP" lacked a true AP cap, only having the flat-based "cap head" and thus performed very poorly against facehardened cruiser armor (as seen on many London Naval Agreement era cruisers of the US and UK). Finally, the extremely long fuze time enabled the maximal distance underwater to be traveled prior to detonation, again at the cost of increasing the risk of overpenetration.

The French also pursued diving shells, but achieved the desired flat nose through their "K" dye bags system. The forward half of the windscreen was flat-based, so the fore charge's explosion (distributing dye) would also destroy the windscreen up to the flat base, leaving a lower half with a flat nose. Thus the AP cap itself was left intact, causing no loss in armor penetration capability. The French dual-action fuze system, mentioned above, was meant to permit a longer delay upon hitting water and a shorter delay upon hitting armor, but again the reliability of the fuze is unknown.

As a final note, while only these two navies deliberately focused shell design on diving ability, other navies' shells dove in battle as well, albeit typically to lesser depths. HMS Prince of Wales and Bismarck both received below-belt hits from each other, and USS Washington scored several hits below the belt (and even on the rudders!) of Kirishima. Such hits were probably less reliable due to varying delay action, but they did happen.

Overall, you can now probably come to your own conclusions regarding WWII naval shells now. I haven't covered all the details by a long shot, but you can get an idea of the priorities and weaknesses every nation had to deal with in making their shells.

[spring briar]

(If you want a similar analysis from 1859-1918, I’m your man)

[thorn trail]

Why underwater

[frigid karma]

Ww2 background lore:

Ww2 gameplay: ✈️

Unfortunately I did not have a warplane emoji

Or a submarine

[spring briar]

[spiral cedar]

Water entering ships sinks them, but air usually does not. Also, by WWII usually magazines are underwater

[spiral cedar]

[frigid karma]

Has the usn done any major target practice to analyze effects of modern weaponry since America?

I like this new emoji

[cinder escarp]

They do sinkex's from time to time, but AFAIK they aren't particularly detailed studies

They just shoot up hulks

[spring briar]

194mm “obus P”
Filled with 16kg of HE (only 2.5 kg less than the burster of the 16” SHS)
Made for use in French coastal batteries to fire at the waterline of capital ships

[thorn trail]

No wait I forgot to reply to what LT or Fox said about "Japan best if underwater hit"

[spring briar]

Oh fuck I forgot to look for the annapolis armor tests

[thorn trail]

Yeah this one. Why underwater

[frigid karma]

so bat missiles in ww2 typically suffered from land radar clutter which made them ineffective against ships close to shore

[thorn trail]

What was special with the Type 91 shell

[frigid karma]

but then why were they used to bomb bridges?

one would think they are a fair bit closer to land than ships

[spiral cedar]

Not so much the Japanese shells are better if it's already an underwater hit, more that the Japanese shells are designed to go underwater without tumbling and thus are more likely to get somewhere deep

[spiral cedar]

This section is on the Type 91/1 shells

[spring briar]

Long fuse delay (400 milliseconds) so it would (aided by detachable cap with flat surface underneath) travel underwater and create a mining effect

[spiral cedar]

400 milliseconds

Not 4

4 is long if you are 1916 Britain tho

[spring briar]

0.4 seconds, deal?

[thorn trail]

Wait how do shells diving underwater work

My brain cannot comprehend rn

[frigid karma]

In a The Final Countdown cliche, the 2nd pacific squadron magically appears in the middle of both battle lines in jutland

describe what happens next

[spiral cedar]

Imagine you dropped something teardrop-shaped into a swimming pool

You'd probably notice if you drop it pointy-side down it will invert and tumble underwater

Until the broader, flatter side is facing forward

A shell with a pointed nose underwater will tend to tumble so that the flatter base is at the front

[thorn trail]

So like is it where the shell hits close but not on the ship and continue going down towards the underwater part of the hull

[spiral cedar]

But if you design the shell to have a flat nose underwater, it will be more stable and avoid tumbling

Yes

The problem, of course, is that a shell with a flat nose is kinda terrible in the air

[thorn trail]

Oh. My brain rn is thinking that shells enter steeply into the water

[spring briar]

How does one explain supercavitation in an easy way

[spiral cedar]

cough Pom Pom ammunition cough]

So you have to find a way to have a long, pointed nose in the air and a flat nose underwater

[frigid karma]

shell shakes a lot to move things out of its way

[lapis delta]

You mean the vacuum bubbles underwater??

[thorn trail]

Oh I understand what that is at least

[spiral cedar]

Pro tip: No one actually understands supercavitation

[thorn trail]

My brain is just so tired rn that I can't imagine how it works

[frigid karma]

no one understands anything

[lapis delta]

Make a YouTube channel and explain it, I'm your first subscriber

[frigid karma]

heisenberg uncertainty principle

Jaba has an onlyfans, if you're interested

[spring briar]

Well just imagine the shell with a flat tip is inside of a supercavitation bubble, which lowers its drag in the water and allows it to travel further underwater in a stable trajectory

[lapis delta]

Ohhhhhhh

[spring briar]

A sharp tipped shell will not create a supercavitation bubble from its tip, but only when it starts tumbling

[wintry moat]

So the shell can hit the water and not tumble keeping it straight to hit the armor?

[thorn trail]

Ok wait I get it now. My brain just decided "if a shell misses it hits at a 90 degree angle in the water"

[cerulean ice]

kek

[chilly flower]

Its secondary role is hitting coastal targets with high radar contrast, like ships in harbor, facilities like warehouses, fuel tanks, or coastal bridges (reportedly being "modified" to better suite that secondary purpose in some cases according to some sources, but the nature of what those modification might be is not known to me)
I imagine anti-bridge use being for specific scenarios where it may be across a valley or body of water, rather than something like smaller, more inland bridges where clutter from trees and terrain would be at its strongest

[spring briar]

That’s the French underwater shell principle
The Japanese principle was to cause only a mining affect

Japan made the error of cutting the flat surface into their AP cap

Which reduced its effectiveness when hitting armor

[thorn trail]

This is what happens when most of your military weapons knowledge is crammed on airplanes rather than boats

[lapis delta]

Funny how they used German engines for some of their aircraft

[frigid karma]

you still play bf1?

[chilly flower]

Sometimes but haven't lately due to space

Need to get a 4 TB drive tbh

[thorn trail]

More of a guy into like Gen 2 and above jets

[lapis delta]

What's your favourite?

[spring briar]

Here’s a french 340mm APC shell with the winscreen removed, you can see the tip of the AP cap in the middle of the circular flat surface. The flat surface allows for the shell to supercavitate and travel underwater. The difference with the Japanese method is that in the French method, they simply added a flat “spacer” on top of the AP cap, and not cutting the surface into the AP cap, which allowed the shell to keep its original effectiveness against armor

[thorn trail]

I find the F-104 fun. Literal lawn dart.

[lapis delta]

Yeah, crashes nose-first into the ground.

[thorn trail]

I'm more interested in the unique aerodynamics of planes more than their weaponry and such

[frigid karma]

reading about the lusties is always tough

[thorn trail]

Most interesting for me is probably the F-107 and F-108

[spring briar]

I showed you my shell, please respond

[frigid karma]

Every source seems to either jerk off the armored deck or call it useless

[wintry moat]

I am looking at getting the German Battlecruisers of WWW1
Design, Constructuin and Operation

[frigid karma]

I'm near the latter side, but jfc is it hard to tell

[wintry moat]

Well it saved Lusty

[lapis delta]

I think the engines and Hull Design of the SR71 are really interesting.
Hybrid engines and leaking all the time when not supersonic

[wintry moat]

as the bomb hit from FliegerCorp X nearly went all the way through her

but she had steel curtains that spread shrapnel and molten flakes through the second part of the hangar

Fliegercorp would almost obsessively practice against a target of Illustrious

and she was pretty hard beaten

[spring briar]

When a battleship has 76 mm of deck armor:
When a carrier has 76 mm of deck armor:

[wintry moat]

With reports claiming once she got back into harbor that the stern of Lusty as glowing a sombre red

[spring briar]

We live in a society

[wintry moat]

which is nuts

Considering the thickness of the plates

[lapis delta]

Taiho with average 90mm

[wintry moat]

Ah Taiho, the Japanese pressure bomb

[lapis delta]

Aerosol*

[wintry moat]

Which Ironclad?

[spring briar]

Reine Blanche

[wintry moat]

Ah

[lapis delta]

You can't say she wasn't true to her name tho

[thorn trail]

Hold on did some BBs have triple hulls

[wintry moat]

you know it's kinda nuts how fast technology progress in the late 19th and 20th century

Considering Admiral Fischer served aboard Warrior

in his early Career

[lapis delta]

War is one hell of a drug for governments.
Weapons designers and scientists rejoice at the funding that provides

[wintry moat]

True

[frigid karma]

Not war alone

[lapis delta]

See Werner von Braun

[spring briar]

Here’s a model of one of her sisterships

[thorn trail]

Most current progress is in software nowadays

[frigid karma]

China has been warring itself for ten morbillion years

[wintry moat]

But even between the wars

[frigid karma]

Didn’t help them so much when the British showed up and thrashed them

[lapis delta]

Don't you trash tsmc's advances is microtechnology!

[frigid karma]

Technological advancement as a result of civilian industries is usually what wins wars

War merely makes capitalizing and investing in those industries easier

For the most part

[lapis delta]

Looking at you Porsche

[thorn trail]

Software is where we'll get a lot of improvements

[frigid karma]

Exceptions apply as it always does

[spring briar]

I think this man only knows german things

[thorn trail]

Because holy shit it took almost a decade for the single core paradigm to finally fucking change

[lapis delta]

Programming has literally never been less efficient

[frigid karma]

I wonder if drone footage from [ ] could be used to develop an AI that recognizes targets from bird’s eye view

[thorn trail]

Javascript and Python was a mistake

[frigid karma]

There’s likely a million hours of footage on YouTube of it already, just have the soldiers do a daily captcha test to train the algorithm

[thorn trail]

And yes I despise Python

[lapis delta]

OOP was a mistake

[spring briar]

Visible spectrum missiles will make stealth obsolete

[wintry moat]

But without Java Minecraft wouldn't exist

[frigid karma]

Chads do scratch

[frigid karma]

JavaScript ain’t Java

[wintry moat]

Dude

Oh

[thorn trail]

Javascript is not Java

[wintry moat]

well that shows how much I know

[thorn trail]

JS is the bane of all web dev

[frigid karma]

They’re two very

Different things

[wintry moat]

Ah

[thorn trail]

Java has its own problems

[lapis delta]

Interpreter languages have their uses, but damn, why can't they just compile after finishing programming?

[thorn trail]

It's garbage collector for one

[frigid karma]

Just git gud and learn c++

The superior language

[thorn trail]

Learn Ada and work in the MIC

Pretty sure the MIC uses either Ada or C++

Nothing in between

[lapis delta]

#technology message

[thorn trail]

Imagine if they used VisualBasic

[frigid karma]

I’m Chinese and my father used to be a communist diplomat

So uh

[wintry moat]

Wel

[frigid karma]

Good luck with me getting into the mic

[wintry moat]

There’s an interesting origin story

[spring briar]

[thorn trail]

I'd want to work as a programmer for the MIC but it's gonna be a heck of a long while

[wintry moat]

anything past the Predreadnought era Battleships look weird AF with single guns

[lapis delta]

So.... Who knows of the disaster that was the queen Victoria?
A disaster in multiple ways?

[wintry moat]

yep

Learned about it a few weeks ago

[lapis delta]

Furious before being converted

[wintry moat]

Was she a monitor or a testbed or?

What

[lapis delta]

Wait a minute

[wintry moat]

Huh?

[lapis delta]

May I introduce: BC HMS Furious

[wintry moat]

She was a BC?

like actually?

[lapis delta]

Yes, and she cracked her Hull during rough weather

[thorn trail]

I know this channel usually focuses on military history but I just wanna say that ancient geology is interesting as fuck

[lapis delta]

Hms Furious and Glorious were a disaster before being converted

Okay, AFTER being converted to FLAT DECK CVs

[spring briar]

No, she was designated as a large light cruiser

[cerulean ice]

that said, this single gun mount is a freaking 457mm

[spring briar]

Under Fisher’s baltic plan

[wintry moat]

Ah

I always thought Furious was a Monitor turned carrier

[lapis delta]

That could never be safely fired bc it could damage her hull

[cerulean ice]

skill issue

[wintry moat]

While Courageous and Glorious we're the “light battlecruisers”

Tfw when just sailing twists your hull

[spring briar]

They were also large light cruisers but lmao

2x2 15” guns

With 75mm belt armor

[lapis delta]

Large light cruisers were just a plainly bad idea

[wintry moat]

I heard from Drach that they had SERIOUS structural issues

like bending and warping of their frames

from just sailing in the ocean

[delicate beacon]

Depends on what you define as large and what you define as light cruiser.

[wintry moat]

Leave it to the British to make weird ass Designations

[lapis delta]

Hms Furious, glorious and curageous

[lapis delta]

And the Germans

[wintry moat]

looking at you KGV as a BC

[spring briar]

Large destroyer

[wintry moat]

Courbet?

[delicate beacon]

I like me some "large" WNT max displacement CLs

[delicate beacon]

That's not JS Kaga.

[spring briar]

1. it’s “Courbet”

[wintry moat]

My phone hates that word

[spring briar]

2. no, it’s Danton

[wintry moat]

Oh

What class?

[spring briar]

Danton class

[wintry moat]

Oh

lol

[lapis delta]

Talking about bad ship ideas: Akagi and Kaga before retrofit, but I still love them

[delicate beacon]

Aw yiss

I love the 20cm CVs

[wintry moat]

What was the plan?

just Battlecarriers?

[lapis delta]

3 decks: hangar, takeoff and landing

[wintry moat]

oh

huh

[delicate beacon]

They lost those 2 decks over time.

[wintry moat]

I would imagine

[delicate beacon]

With at one point it being used to house 20cms

[lapis delta]

Though launching simultaneously from 3 decks Was a good idea in itself, but.... Yeah... Not practical

[delicate beacon]

Planes used to have much slower stall speeds and shorter takeoff

[wintry moat]

But technology progressed

and stuff got faster

[delicate beacon]

Also the WNT allowed for experimental CVs to have 20cms

[lapis delta]

Akagi post-retrofit

[delicate beacon]

So like the Lexis they got 20cns

[wintry moat]

even if they aren't great carriers Kaga and Akagi are gorgeous

[lapis delta]

I think they were great carriers, just after their last retrofit

[delicate beacon]

Depends on perspective

[lapis delta]

And I can't just deny my love for floof

[wintry moat]

how do they stack up against the Saratogas?

as they are the closest American carriers to them

[delicate beacon]

They were very flawed. But thats what you get from a conversion so it's built with a structural issues.

[spring briar]

@delicate beacon

[lapis delta]

Considering they were a BC and BB by Hull design

[wintry moat]

French weirdness

[spring briar]

No

[wintry moat]

Oh, well shit

[delicate beacon]

tfw no single gun turrets on centerline

[lapis delta]

The French built a ship with secondaries, that had a longer range than its main guns.
French weirdness

[spring briar]

That came later

[wintry moat]

Courbet did that

If I remember right

[spring briar]

Yeah that’s often stated but I have yet to see the disadvantage in that

[wintry moat]

French ships are NOT my forte

well

[spring briar]

Yes it’s Courbet

[delicate beacon]

Range hardly matters if you cant hit at it.

[wintry moat]

what were the other nations building at the time?

what's floating around?

[lapis delta]

The ships of other navies it was supposed to face couldn't be properly penned with the secondaries and had longer ranged main guns

[spring briar]

Kaisers, Wyomings, Minas Geraes, Colossus

Stuff like that

[wintry moat]

so do you know WHY her secondary guns have better range?

[spring briar]

Because the shells had long windscreens

They were a new model of shell

[wintry moat]

was it her main guns weren't as good or did she just have a more modern secondary battery

[lapis delta]

Planning for a different kind of battles, that were outdated

[spring briar]

Also the main gun range was less because the max elevation was lower on them

[wintry moat]

Oh

intresting

So if they had made wider cuts wouldn't they have better range?

On the turrets themselves

[delicate beacon]

It's not just cuts

[wintry moat]

like the Queen Elizabeths

[lapis delta]

One of the reasons why I want USS Texas to have a skill called "Just tilt the ship!" if she's added to AL

[wintry moat]

Agreed

[spring briar]

The elevation was later modified to reach to roughly 23 km

[delicate beacon]

You need a bigger barbette for the recoil

[wintry moat]

oh

did they ever get a rebuild

as they are fairly early dreadnought

so they would’ve had time to be

[delicate beacon]

And if you're making a bigger cut you're going to need more elevating armour.

[spring briar]

The gun elevation issue wasn’t only a french thing, the USN suffered the same issues. They also simply increased the max elevation

[wintry moat]

I love this kinda stuff

[spring briar]

I don’t
I’ve had to give this explanation so many times already

[delicate beacon]

Just write a book

[lapis delta]

AA skill "Are you on fire? - Uh, no?"

[wintry moat]

all the Dakka

[spring briar]

[wintry moat]

it's kinda funny knowing tex would start life with a Single 76mm AA gun

[delicate beacon]

If I had made a bingo/tally list I would shout right now.

[wintry moat]

granted air threats were nowhere near what they would become

[lapis delta]

Amateur naval history bingo, I like the idea

[delicate beacon]

Why did you name it after a British ship.

[spring briar]

Sang
Look at the 370mm guns with Holtzer chrome nickel steel shells

[delicate beacon]

Nikkel chroom staal

[spring briar]

Amiral Duperré

[wintry moat]

Ive got a question if y'all don't mind asking

[delicate beacon]

So far Texas is winning

[wintry moat]

the term “all big guns” for dreadnought

Does it refer to her having multiple heavy 12inch guns

[delicate beacon]

It's a fire control thing.

[wintry moat]

Or Only those?

as it they were all controlled from the fire control station

[delicate beacon]

You have a main battery of all homogeneous large guns so they can range for eachother with centralised fire control. You can rapidly switch firing modes between straddle and salvo too.

God damnit Richie I saw that

[wintry moat]

Oh okay

[spring briar]

It’s true!!!

[delicate beacon]

Before you used the medium/secondary battery to range. But since those guns are of different ballistics and are previously locally controlled it's much more complex.

[wintry moat]

Okay

[spring briar]

stares at Kawachi

[delicate beacon]

Semi-dreadnoughts

[wintry moat]

So basically her main battery is a uniform set of Heavy guns that can all be controlled together

[delicate beacon]

P much

[wintry moat]

Ok thanks

I assumed it meant that she had the 8 sets of 12inch guns, compared to most predreads with 2-4 sets of heavy guns

[delicate beacon]

I forget which were all the hallmarks of a "Dreadnought"

[wintry moat]

Not 8, I'm am stupid

the 8 guns

[spring briar]

Sang!!

[delicate beacon]

But iirc it was uniform main battery, turbine engines and something else.

Though the Dutch were trying to make Dreadnought without turbines so I'm not really sure what constitutes a dreadnought

Help my wifi is doing a shit

[spring briar]

Pre-Gloire ironclad floating battery

[delicate beacon]

[spring briar]

Iowa’s ancestor

[wintry moat]

Well didn't the Early German Dreadnoughts not have Turbines?

[delicate beacon]

tfw failed to send glowoe

[shut wren]

So what if

[spring briar]

Turbines are not a requirement

[delicate beacon]

I blame Drach

[shut wren]

A plane crashes n shit on to the ground,and is still intact

[spring briar]

South cal didnt have em

[shut wren]

could the airframe still be made airworthy

[spring briar]

And she’s definitely a dread

[delicate beacon]

Didn't the US got their first working Zero from a crash?

Depending on the damage you can repair it. But at some point you might just salvage it for what you can and buy a new one.

Aight so Richie. I had questions.

[shut wren]

No idea

[delicate beacon]

So I know a mantel means jacket right now. But I'm still not entirely sure what mantelring construction means.
Also what's draad constructie. I remember it meaning it has a higher barrel life but you must rebuild the gun instead of the barrel

[spring briar]

Wire wound gun

[naive crag]

The Akutan Zero

[spring briar]

Mantelring is a built up gun from different cylindrical segments

Draad constructie is the liner being wound by a wire which gets forged into the sleeve

[shut wren]

What determines when it’s time for a new F-16 block

[delicate beacon]

What's mantelring called in English

[chilly flower]

The Akutan Zero in question, that said I forget the exact details but it still needed some reconstruction and repairs despite being mostly intact from it's landing in the mud and water (being a sudden and violent flip that snapped the neck of the pilot), and as a result the performance figures were somewhat altered as a consequence (compared to later testing with captured A6M2s) but it still painted a solid idea of the aircraft

[spring briar]

Concentric metal cylinders

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built-up_gun

[delicate beacon]

I just found the page too

[spring briar]

Portugal’s only capital ship
Ironclad Vasco da Gama

She’s so cute

[stone sorrel]

did it travel to India?

[wintry moat]

So when did ships transition out of being called “iron clad”

is it just when steel became readily available and reliable

[stone sorrel]

predreadnought era

like slightly after franco prussian war

1880s

[spring briar]

No, 1888

[chilly flower]

Typically if the damage is severe enough (which for aircraft tends to be a pretty low threshold for what counts as severe, due to fragility) it'll just wind up as a writeoff and either left in place (often burned or destroyed by the pilot/crew if in enemy territory), dragged elsewhere (especially on airfields where it can be cannibalized for extra parts), or stripped of valuable/sensitive equipment and tossed overboard in the case of Carrier aircraft sometimes
However, if restoring and keeping the aircraft in question has value (like with an enemy type that one doesn't consider obsolete, or simply wishes to study for the betterment of one's own fighting or technology), great lengths are sometimes given to restore an example if sufficiently intact

[delicate beacon]

Wait so it's refered to a hoop gun

[spring briar]

And arguably the pre dreadnought era only really began in 1895-1896

[stone sorrel]

[spring briar]

Mantelringen

It really depends from navy to navy

But around 1890 is when the transition occurs

When ironclads started to look like pre dreadnoughts and a lot of pre dreadnought characteristics were being implemented

[wintry moat]

interesting

[stone sorrel]

the more I look at old guns the more I think they can double as a smokestack for a factory

[delicate beacon]

But what's this that I read about guns that couldnt be rebored.

[spring briar]

You can only rebore a gun to the limit of the liner

[delicate beacon]

Thats one way to use Krupp guns. Shouldve told the Norwegians before they turned them into cutlery.

[spring briar]

Shells

[stone sorrel]

could have been useful for them oil rigs

[delicate beacon]

Sadly the oil wasnt discovered yet.

[stone sorrel]

[spring briar]

And the fun fact is, France and Germany in particular had good guns on their ironclads, which made it viable to keep them throughout the pre dreadnought age and even into the dreadnought age

[delicate beacon]

But the article I was reading said they couldn't be rebored at all if they were made of a draadconstructie. Or I may be misremembering things it was long ago.

[spring briar]

Ironclads are particularly useful in bombarding colonial ports

Anyways goodnight

[wintry moat]

Night good sir

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1643748751281115138

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

Commissioned in 1915, the monitor HMS Marshal Ney was armed with two 15-inch guns that were intended for the superdreadnought battleship HMS Ramillies. Marshal Ney performed poorly during sea trials, so the 15-inch turret was replaced with a single 9.2-inch gun. #WarshipWednesday

Twitter · Apr 5, 2023, 10:53 PM

[wintry moat]

Weird

Also

Hang on

I've got something similar

Something someone sent in drach’s server

10 16inch guns

a weapon to surpass Agincourt

[delicate beacon]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_British_ordnance_terms#Wire-wound
Useful

Night Richie

[chilly flower]

N.A.S. Norfolk, Virginia. Martin PBM Mariners on the seaplane apron, circa 1944-45. Most of these planes appear to be PBM-3D and PBM-3S Models.

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1643647808950370308

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

Today is #NationalNebraskaDay. Named in honor of the Corn Husker state, the pre-dreadnought battleship USS Nebraska (BB-14) had one of the most unusual camouflage schemes ever applied to a U.S. Navy ship. The colors were red, black and white.
#WarshipWednesday

Likes

198

Twitter · Apr 5, 2023, 4:12 PM

[shrewd pecan]

The competition that gave us the Stryker was a interesting one

The competing proposals included a development of the M113 paired with the M8 AGS, making it the 2nd time the M8 was rejected by the army

A variant of the Singaporean Bionix

And lastly the Austrian Pandur

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interim_Armored_Vehicle

In terms of the first experimental Stryker brigade it ended up being equipped with Canadian LAV IIIs, TPZ Fuchs, B1 Centauros and M113s to fill in for the not yet delivered Stryker

[shut wren]

who tf playing tetris with military vehicles

[shrewd pecan]

I think there being prepared for disposal

[shut wren]

Just chuck em out of a C-130 into a desiginated field

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/ArmorCollection/status/1643746325576704000

U.S. Army Armor & Cavalry Collection (@ArmorCollection)

On 5 April 2003, A Company, 1-64 Armor led the first "Thunder Run" assault through Baghdad. Staff Sergeant Booker's tank, "Another Episode", and the other M1A1s of 1st Platoon took the brunt of enemy fire.
4/9

Twitter · Apr 5, 2023, 10:43 PM

[quick shard]

E2 tank engine?

[strong plank]

I love Army tank names

Always creative

[shrewd pecan]

ASVAD waiver

[sullen canyon]

I see Aim Assist there

[subtle prawn]

Aim assist OP, plz nerf

[shut wren]

"Big Ripit"

tf they rippin

annnnd i cant say whats next

[shrewd pecan]

energy drinks

[strong plank]

I’ve heard of one named “And the Horse you Rode in on”

Isn’t it a rule that tank names have to start with the letter of your unit

[shrewd pecan]

no idea

I've seen names like Ronnie's raygun, witches hut, bandido's from my friend's tank

[strong plank]

Wasn’t Chieftain’s named like

“Barely Legal”

[shrewd pecan]

yeah

wonder how bad Minnesota's national guard's tank brigade is

[eternal veldt]

Scharnhorsts were often quoted to have 350mm belt armour thanks to the book Battleships and Battlecruisers 1905-1970 by Siegfried Breyer. Blueprints by the Bundesarchiv invenio show otherwise, at 320mm belt, identical to that of Bismarck.

Most official publications tend to just quote Breyer's figure since it was the staple work back then, and more importantly, archive information simply being inaccessible.

The recent Anatomy of the Ship - Scharnhorst publication by Dramanski has the fixed belt armour at 320mm, but fucked deck armour quoted at 110mm near magazine areas. This is not true, and it should be a uniform 105mm all round.

[subtle prawn]

Which figure does the book by Koop use?

[eternal veldt]

Also 350, because it used Breyer as a source.

Its a domino effect started by him.

And since we're on the German BBs, I should also note that both Scharnhorsts and Bismarcks, despite flaws, were often bashed to the ground as literal scrap iron by many, or hailed as the second coming of dreadnought. Very few inbetweens.

[shut wren]

what da ospray doin?

[eternal veldt]

case in point, fresh from somewhere yesterday. Some are valid, some are just straight up nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking. I'm also going to give @alpine onyx a heart attack as soon as you wake up.

[eternal veldt]

This shitstain is partly thanks to Yuro, a WoWS youtuber, who comes up with shit "jokes" and everyone buys it.

"I have no idea what that space beneath the shelter deck is used for, so therefore I will make a funni joke and make fun of Hood, and watch impressionable peope take it as the truth"

[subtle prawn]

https://www.legacy.com/news/celebrity-deaths/billy-waugh-1929-2023-u-s-army-special-forces-veteran/

[shut wren]

[silver crest]

i hate it when werhbs say that treaty of versailles was too harsh

then attribute it to general foch's quote of the 20 year armistace

what they fail to realize is that foch thought the treaty was to lenient and advocated for an even harsher treaty

also very interesting

i just learned that foch's coffin is carried by ww1 soldier statues

[tough quail]

based

[deep apex]

It was harsh, but Foch advocating for an even harsher one was just asking for trouble again

[silver crest]

literally balkanizing germany so they couldn't retaliate

[eternal veldt]

Either full on leniency, or full on harshness

not the compromise that Versailles presented

[silver crest]

versailles was a pretty weak treaty

didn't the germans only pay 1/8th of the reparations

[deep apex]

Yeah that just sounds like you're wanting a second war

[silver crest]

how can a disunited germany wage war?

[deep apex]

Hatred usually finds a way

[silver crest]

treaty of trianon and saint germain-en-laye were much harsher

literally carved up austria-hungary

and hungarians lost like 65% of their land

treaty of brest livosk gave the germans the industrial land of the russian empire

while they were having a civil war

idk man

treaty of versailles seems like your typical treaty compared to the others

because the french were being assholes, they were forced to leave the ruhr

[alpine onyx]

Why do I have to see that in the early morning?

[silver crest]

and gave back germany their industrial lands

[alpine onyx]

And what even is that one on about repeating themselves three times over

[eternal veldt]

Giving you the energy without coffee

Uncited sources too, because "too lazy" and "when I feel like it"

[deep apex]

Wasn't a lot of German territory (not all obviously though) actual German territory?

Genuine question here

[alpine onyx]

It was revealed to me in a dream

[eternal veldt]

Either way, would love to see you comment on that

When you have the time, of course

[alpine onyx]

Would have to sort that list first because of how redundant the points are

[silver crest]

most of the land that the german empire occupies were once small german-speaking states abd principalities

[alpine onyx]

Bad radar, worse radar than contemporaries and no fire control radar

[silver crest]

so in a way

yep