history

[frigid karma]

does the new panther have any improvements to its survivability, or is it mostly the gun

[shrewd pecan]

where it didn't have armor?

[shrewd pecan]

from what I can tell

[junior trench]

Also

[shrewd pecan]

its a leopard 2A7 but with bigger gun and less ammo

that shaves off weight by getting rid of a crewmember

[junior trench]

People not understanding that certain parts of testing will be weighted more heavily than others

So even if you win "more" they can be valued less

Because it's all ancillary shit

[shrewd pecan]

who was it that I had a entire argument about how next gen tanks in their current forms basically offer no advantage over current gen unless you're upgrading from extremely old tanks

since I really hope you enjoy only having 20 rounds

[frigid karma]

Dunno why you would really want to develop a new tank for a 130 when the tanks you can reasonably expect to be facing in the future probably won't require anything larger than existing 120s

[dusty kraken]

Because yes

[shrewd pecan]

I'm gonna be honest here its not going to be worthwhile to buy a entirely new tank just to shave off 7 tons from your tank or about 8 short tons

[strong plank]

130 might offer better effective range?

[frigid karma]

i mean, true

[shrewd pecan]

yeah but that's a entirely new gun and new ammo supply

[frigid karma]

but the 120 is already a very very fine gun

[shrewd pecan]

for little gain

[frigid karma]

and you get more rounds

[shrewd pecan]

if you really wanted to squeeze out range you can just

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM1111_Mid-Range_Munition

[frigid karma]

a new tank these days should focus more on affordability and ease of life

add a karaoke bar for the crew to maintain morale

[shrewd pecan]

wishful thinking for any next gen tank

[junior trench]

You can get approximately the same effect by stripping out all the metallic wiring and replacing it with fiberoptics

Which is what Abrams did and still managed to save ~3 tonnes even after using the savings to expand the armor

[shrewd pecan]

In regards to western tanks I also don't really see T-14 or Abrams X working out well

[strong plank]

although I'd imagine you do get to a point where an older design can't be upgraded any further, or at least, where it's much less practical to keep piling onto an older tank

[shrewd pecan]

yeah but we aren't at that point

[strong plank]

tho i do agree with this

[shrewd pecan]

I don't really see crewless turrets working well with western doctrine

[strong plank]

I'm intrigued to see how different concept tanks propose to handle top-attack munitions

[shrewd pecan]

probably APS and automatic smoke systems

[junior trench]

Also just understanding that tanks don't exist in a vacuum

stares at a certain nation attaching fixed AGLs to their tanks now due to almost exactly that happening

[desert agate]

My child you have not seen the goodness of tojokistan

[dapper parcel]

You know what's silly about KF51?
It still use MB 873...

[shrewd pecan]

epic

[maiden citrus]

there's nothing alt about tojokistan

[desert agate]

Biggest weakness of Leo 2 is the hull ammunition stowage which has led to a considerable number of losses

Vehicles aren't bad by any means but they have their weaknesses just like any other

[dapper parcel]

Surely the 20rds for 130mm is bustle only stowage right?

Unless "20 ready rounds" means there are non-ready rounds somewhere

[desert agate]

You'd hope so but no

[dapper parcel]

For the KF51 I mean
I know exactly where every single Leo2 rounds are

[shrewd pecan]

from what I've seen

there's no hull ammo storage

I'm also hoping to god it can double its ammo storage without the loitering munitions

[dapper parcel]

I hope they already move the APU and hydraulic powerpack to the hull

[strong plank]

from what I've heard, yes

or at least I know the loitering munitions launcher is just a potential configuration

[manic latch]

Leclerc is the strongest MBT because it has least losses among all other MBTS

[tough quail]

correct

[shrewd pecan]

eh never realized the XM5 got re designated to XM7

[cinder escarp]

Far more embarrassing: this was caused by a HESH hit.

[shrewd pecan]

remembered the wrong incident

yeah that one was a blue on blue

[cinder escarp]

(Friendly 120mm 🅱️ESH from another CR2 hit it, it had hatches open. HESH fragments set off the ammo stores which are soviet style)

On CR1/CR2 you sit on top of the ammo

[shrewd pecan]

from what I'm reading it caused a fire that later caused the ammo to cook off

tho whatever the cause was it brought the same end result

[cinder escarp]

The brits demanded all explosives be stored below the turret ring... which results in a big ole ammo dump directly under the turret for maximum turret-launch effect.

[shrewd pecan]

no blowout panels and charge bags

what a wonderful combo

[manic latch]

Did America had a MBT design as "what if we didn't care about budget"?

There is MBT-70 but smh more extreme?

[junior trench]

not really

[shrewd pecan]

there's probably paper designs somewhere out there of potential designs

[junior trench]

even the big boi late Cold War prototypes weren't unlimited budget

just "only makes sense in the context of Cold War budgets"

[cinder escarp]

It's hard to get more extreme than MBT-70 in costs, really

[shrewd pecan]

there's a few prototypes out there I suppose that attempted to show off what was the most doable with technology at the time

shame we never got CATTB as M1A3

[manic latch]

Chunky

[cinder escarp]

Outside of MBT-70, the only other 'wonder project' is the T95 family, cut short by missilemania

[shrewd pecan]

smoothbore 90 MM

combined with early composite armor that was either proposed or put on a single prototype (I can't remember which one it was)

[cinder escarp]

I mean, by the final iterations it was back to the absurdly powerful 120mm rifle from the M103

The composite turrets and hulls were being made when the thing was canned

At the time it was canned, the T95E6 was the planned development focus followed by the E9 (E6 with the 12V71T engine) and ultimately E12 (E6 with the AVCR-1100 engine, 2 meter optical rangefinder, and the digital FCS)

[shrewd pecan]

really be that time where I'm tryna find some article mentioning the M1 CATTB written by some IDF general of all things

[manic latch]

Really feels like movie prop

[cinder escarp]

It should be noted that the turret setup (digital FCS, 2 meter rangefinder, general design) did make it to the M60A1

[shrewd pecan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Tal

[cinder escarp]

The 120mm was supposed to as well

[shrewd pecan]

probably not what the final version would of looked like since it doesn't really feature storage racks or anything

but it featured quite a few notable things including a interesting autoloader

a compact gas turbine

roof armor meant to counter crap like the TOW-2B

I've seen it mentioned it had a radar for its FCS system but I don't have anything to confirm that

[manic latch]

Tank radars are gone because expensive or useless?

[dapper parcel]

Radar for rangefinding, it have slight inconvenience of announcing to the world where you are

[shrewd pecan]

K2 has it

[manic latch]

But enemy needs to have RDF for that

[shrewd pecan]

its not really like radar warning receivers are all that common on the ground and its not the only vehicle that processes it

[manic latch]

Oh

[shrewd pecan]

the Russians have a similar thing with whatever their MTLB ATGM launcher is

lets the tank detect targets beyond visual range and through some forms of clutter that would block optical detection methods

[manic latch]

Also counters smoke

[shrewd pecan]

also I'm pretty sure if they become common enough you could just throw in chaff dispensers alongside the smoke grenades

[dapper parcel]

Well, viable ground radar for search (instead of rangefinding only) was quite recent development

[shrewd pecan]

its been a thing since the 80s

in the reconaissance world at least

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RASIT

[manic latch]

[dapper parcel]

Welp, I thought effective declutter filter was quite recent

[shrewd pecan]

I mean aircraft have had effective air to ground radar modes for quite a while

ground search radars are also rather common

[dapper parcel]

Tho I wonder why the X-band choice, it basically a LOS

[shrewd pecan]

https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/land/an-pps-5.htm

god damn its older than I thought

shits form Vietnam

personally I'm a fan of just smacking radar/FLIR masts on every vehicle intended to do recon

if it ain't meant to fight for information it might as well ascend for information

[cinder escarp]

do not question the elevated one

[dapper parcel]

No way that can discriminate target

[shrewd pecan]

the website I got that from

looks even worse than FAS

"AN/PPS-4 Ground Surveillance Radar
The AN/PPS-4 is a small self contained unit. It sits on a tripod, in total about four feet high, and could be carried by a single person. The dish and controls were all part of a single unit which we would set up on its tripod right on the ground. We plugged the earphone into it and panned the unit back and forth manually. Output was through the earphones and dials on the unit showing distance to the target."

tho the PPS-5 is also vietnam era

"AN/PPS-5 Ground Surveillance Radar
REFERENCE: TM 11-5840-298-12

The AN/PPS-5B Ground Surveillance Radar Set is a lightweight, man-portable, battery-powered, ground-to-ground surveillance radar set for use by units such as infantry and tank battalions. The radar is used to detect, locate, identify and track moving personnel at ranges of 6km and vehicles at ranges of 10km, day or night under virtually all weather conditions.

The radar has a maximum display range of 10,000 meters and targets can be displayed both aurally and visually. Built for durability, the AN/PPS-5B Radar is rugged enough to withstand rough field handling. When packed in its watertight container, it can be parachute dropped and undergo repeated submersion. Increased operational flexibility is afforded when the unit is mounted in a jeep or APC."

[dapper parcel]

At best I think it had movement threshold detection, discrimination would require quite powerful signal processing

[shrewd pecan]

https://www.ichiban1.org/html/cs_radar.htm

[dapper parcel]

Well, easiest way to test is to see if the radar works when moving

[shrewd pecan]

I'm not really much of a radar nerd I just know these things exist (primarily from wargame sadly)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perimeter_surveillance_radar#Challenges_to_PSR

knowing how crazy some of the aircraft based ones get even during the 80s

makes me wonder how crazy the modern surveillance radars can get

[dapper parcel]

Yeah, detecting something moving is easy when you're stationary
The problem is when the radar itself is moving, and worse still when you don't have time to scan the area more than once within the movement detection threshold

[shrewd pecan]

radars likely fine tuned to filter out contacts that aren't either vehicles or people to where I don't think modern systems will have much of a issue especially those intended for fire control

tho I believe things like the RASIST were intended to be used in static positions

similar story for the manportable systems

[dapper parcel]

Target discrimination to that extent makes the tuning basically image recognition problem

[shrewd pecan]

I mean considering they were able to do it with 80s grade radars on aircraft

I imagine its doable with modern surveillance radars

[dapper parcel]

I know for sure that modern portable radar definitely can do that

[shrewd pecan]

considering this thing is somehow able to detect both people and vehicles at nearly 100 miles away with 90s technology is a mere miracle

[dapper parcel]

Electronic scan makes the scanning part quite trivial

[shrewd pecan]

👁️ tho now I want to see a tank with a AESA over a pulse doppler

mmmmmmm cancer waves going in every direction https://youtu.be/5l8LdM9_3PU

there is a reason why I think anyone who suggests AESA equipped aircraft for war thunder is off their goop

[manic latch]

Likely one of the sexiest transport

10 year since first flight

[junior trench]

IR opaque smoke usually involves involves metal flakes, both combusting and otherwise, which will probably fuck with mmw radar

[manic latch]

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a42589676/air-forces-secret-hypersonic-bomber-project-mayhem-updates/

[spring briar]

That looks like something made in Kerbal for a tutorial video

[junior trench]

looks like embiggened X-51

[dapper parcel]

Why bother with bomber when you can just make it a bomb?

[shut wren]

Yo wtf is tojokistan

[manic latch]

@shrewd pecan

Turkey Jesus christ

This is for the new M60 modification

[ivory ridge]

105mm gun

[manic latch]

105mm with autoloader

Ok I see lot of good things

Slat and ERA armor
Much better optics and one for commander as well
Smoke launchers

[ivory ridge]

[desert agate]

You oh so sweet summer child

[shut wren]

Yo wtf is this shit

[desert agate]

Search channel tojokistan

Sort by oldest

All will be revealed

[shut wren]

I only seen jokistan

gib link

[desert agate]

#history message

[manic latch]

Red Army soldiers inspect tanks Pz.Kpfw. V "Panther", destroyed on the Kursk Bulge

[shut wren]

You can shoot down tanks?

[shut wren]

To the channel

[desert agate]

What

[shut wren]

Bruh

[manic latch]

[frigid karma]

?

[desert agate]

https://twitter.com/CBI_PTO_History/status/1618639630211112962?t=T5RTULgdXiqKFtf13Mk0_g&s=19

Justin Pyke (@CBI_PTO_History)

Downloads another journal article and files it away without reading it.
Me: Sighs "Whew, that's enough learning for today."

Twitter · Jan 26, 2023, 3:58 PM

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/RoyalCanNavy/status/1618611192200843264

Royal Canadian Navy (@RoyalCanNavy)

A special shoutout to the @Australian_Navy as they mark #AustraliaDay. We always look forward to working alongside you! 🇦🇺🇨🇦

Pictured here: #HMCSCalgary getting fueled by #HMASSirius during #OpProjection '21.
📷Cpl Lynette Ai Dang

Twitter · Jan 26, 2023, 2:05 PM

[shut wren]

The bigger boat looks rusty

[lime belfry]

stop upgrading the M60

retire it already

dont let it suffer like the T-54

[manic latch]

Turkey still use M48 lol

Tho I'm not sure of their obsession of keeping the M60s

[lime belfry]

it a good tank

[shrewd pecan]

only countries really pursuing the upgraded M60s is Turkey and Jordan

[kindred reef]

most modern ships get like that after long enough at sea

[tough quail]

poverty

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1618704515708112896

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

Happy #AustraliaDay to our friends Down Under. #DYK that USS Canberra (CA-70/CAG-2) was named in honor of HMAS Canberra? It also was the only U.S. Navy ship to bear the name of a foreign capital. Continuing the tradition, USS Canberra (LCS-30) will be commissioned later this year

Twitter · Jan 26, 2023, 8:16 PM

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1618705488149106689

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

In 1960, USS Canberra did a bit of time traveling when the cruiser destroyed a drone by firing a missile from the future. This feat was accomplished when Canberra fired a missile on Monday that crossed the International Date Line to hit the drone on Sunday. #AustraliaDay

Twitter · Jan 26, 2023, 8:20 PM

[rapid junco]

Fire Fighting Exercise aboard Barroso

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/NavalInstitute/status/1618616777533194241

U.S. Naval Institute (@NavalInstitute)

#OTD in 1925, Paul Newman was born. He wanted to be a naval aviator but was rejected because of his colorblindness. He served as an aviation radioman in the Pacific theater during WWII and was aboard USS Hollandia when the news of Japan's surrender was announcd on August 14, 1945

Likes

283

Twitter · Jan 26, 2023, 2:28 PM

[junior trench]

yesn't

it's a T-72M1 turret with new internals and a shitload of ERA that's had a NATO 105 shoved into it which fits onto both the T-72 and M60 hulls

because Turkey is... special

whether it's actually meant for both is also up for debate

because...

well

they use the same fucking graphic in both versions

they just angle and arrange it so can can't eyeball the dimensional differences in the hulls as readily

[tough quail]

turkish future science

[kindred reef]

turkey modifying a cold war tank instead of making a new one be like

[junior trench]

allegedly you can get the T-72 version with the 125 left intact

but

Turkey

"we want T-72BUM"
"we have T-72BUM at home"

[shrewd pecan]

eh

doesn't that mean the Leopard 1 hull could technically accept a M60 turret

[subtle prawn]

https://twitter.com/ArmorCollection/status/1618379172191285252 @tough quail

U.S. Army Armor & Cavalry Collection (@ArmorCollection)

The Armor & Cavalry Collection is excited to unveil our most recent arrival to the Tankodrome: the BAE Systems Mobile Protected Firepower (MPF) testbed vehicle.
1/6

Likes

503

▶ Play video

Twitter · Jan 25, 2023, 10:43 PM

[tough quail]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/468719321087082516/1058915090553913364/image0_2-1.gif

[subtle prawn]

Unfortunate that BAE’s option wasn’t selected, not because I think it’s better, I just think it looks better and right compared to GDLS’s option

https://twitter.com/SofiGaming/status/1617985098309308416

Sofilein || Average Tank Enjoyer (@SofiGaming)

Henlo

Likes

1373

Retweets

117

Twitter · Jan 24, 2023, 8:38 PM

You going to find an excuse to go there any time soon?

[tough quail]

tempting

my blessed child must be appreciated

[maiden citrus]

nice eyes

[tough quail]

he sees all

[cinder escarp]

tfw Burlak at home

[tough quail]

yeah thats what i was thinking

[tough quail]

weird friend

[manic latch]

Based

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7JY0YELDVU

[desert agate]

This was Sirius' last deployment and she was quite an old ship, less effort had been put into her overall maintenance just prior to her decommissioning

[shut wren]

I see

[desert agate]

Her replacement is much shinier

[shut wren]

Damn I wish we got a Type 055 DDG in al

An shun Retro is just a 055 DDG

[ivory ridge]

damn i wish we got ||deez nuts|| in AL

[thorny patio]

So... I just learned that Avrora had 2 sisters... And the lead ship of her class, Pallada, was sunk, raised by the ijn, and recommissioned as IJN Tsugaru...

I'd love to see THAT ship

[maiden citrus]

[molten patio]

Mixed child

[zealous vine]

Did the British intend to put autoloaders in their 16" Mk IV turrets

I'm trying to find a source for it but it seems I've failed

[frigid karma]

autoloading lions?

[tough quail]

not really autoloading persay but iirc there were a few late war proposals for whacky assisted loading 16" guns with the turret count dropped to two

[subtle prawn]

Oh

[frigid karma]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ9ln6SYbxI&ab_channel=WardCarroll

absolute mandatory watch

[maiden citrus]

perfect

[frigid karma]

a PT boat sails up to the side of the ship

"could i get a chicken sandwich and a sundae"

they put the money in a sock and pitch it up

the crew throws the food from the kitchen down

[frigid karma]

so someone claimed that was a pic of sandy from the anime in Daring's sleeping quarters, and i can kind of see it?

does anyone have the unblurred pic

[dapper parcel]

[manic latch]

Amogus

[lime belfry]

Who Daring ?

Oh u mean the ship ?

[manic latch]

PLA Anti-Ship-Missiles

[tough quail]

angry tube

[chilly osprey]

Anti-ship and Anti-submarine, actually

Yu-8 and Yu-11 are both ASM's

Gotta say, though, I know almost nothing about the Yu-11

[tough quail]

the only thing i know about any of these is the yj-12 looks cool as fuck

[chilly osprey]

As far as the rest go;

YJ-83 is basically knock-off Exocet, similar to MM40 Block 3 (better in some respects), and is the go-too for the PLAN's smaller combatants like frigates, corvettes, missile boats, etc.

YJ-91A is a knockoff of the Kh-31P used by some aircraft.

YJ-18 is basically Chinese Kalibr, and is the primarily AShM used by their modern DDs (052D/055). Subsonic sea-skimmer with a supersonic dash in the terminal phase.

YJ-62 is a long-range subsonic seaskimmer used on land batteries for coastal defense, though iirc they also put it on some older destroyers.

YJ-9 is a small AShM used by helicopters against very small targets.

YJ-12 is a primarily air-launched long-range supersonic AShM, which is why it is huge as fuck (granted, not as stupidly large as something like a Kh-22). A few older DDGs have been refit with it.

[frigid karma]

Huh, I didn’t even know the yj-9 existed

[tough quail]

gracias for the missile lore

[frigid karma]

Since it’s helicopter mounted, shouldn’t it be exclusively to deal with tiny boats in a brown water context?

[chilly osprey]

Pretty much, yeah

Fast attack craft and corvettes would be your target range

It's only got a range of about 15 km or so, and the warhead is probably in the 20-30 kg range

[shut wren]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/514333567195807754/1067992322211582013/gluessex_0000.gif

[subtle prawn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWJTS9SMagI

[maiden citrus]

much like ships, I recommend lots of ramming with a ram bow

[ivory ridge]

i shouldnt have checked the profile of that user

[frigid karma]

What user

[ivory ridge]

whoever said that took it from here
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/10mcdqe/comment/j62qafb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

[frigid karma]

[cinder escarp]

you forgor the YJ-21

[eternal veldt]

https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/10mhuvv/the_t34_is_not_as_bad_as_you_think_it_is_part_15/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Sorry for mobile link, but another look at another probably Lazerpig's questionable video

Probably another to go with his Piorun video

[remote monolith]

o7 the uberscheisserfuhrer

[eternal veldt]

Lots of strawmans and exaggerations apparently too, which is... Yikes

[remote monolith]

its a pretty unfortunate thing honestly

thanks to...certain modern events there's a lot of discourses about the Soviets that became difficult topics

[eternal veldt]

Well... Yea, especially "the human wave" stuff.

[remote monolith]

human waves, armament reliability, officer competence, among other things

I hope the backslide into enemy at the gates level of discourse won't be irreversible

[eternal veldt]

Needs the current events to die down first

But so far the well is fairly poisoned

[maiden citrus]

[eternal veldt]

Getting a lot of chomkers in my feed lately

Holy shit, maka's speed

[maiden citrus]

I sensed goodness

it's also 4 am at work and everything is very quiet

but yeah you've been posting a lot of good stuff

[eternal veldt]

I also have a lot of IJN pics

But I flooded the other server already, don't wanna do it here

[spiral cedar]

Send the best 3

[eternal veldt]

Damn, jaba asking me to pick favourites

Okay, let's do the lewd ones

bonus

and I suppose one more Hyuga wouldn't hurt, always liked their pre-rebuild looks.

Just don't ask about the funnel caps.

[spiral cedar]

Can I get a one-sentence caption for each?

Just to know the context

[manic latch]

Actually true

[frigid karma]

they really dropped off after 100k

the fate of subreddits

[desert agate]

other server?

[eternal veldt]

WoWS

[eternal veldt]

First one: Tosa, 16-17 December, 1921, prior to launch
Second: Yamashiro, 1925-1927
Third: The entire Takao class setting a smokescreen, filmed from Atago
Fourth: Hyuga, 27th January, 1917, prior to launch
Fifth: Hyuga, 21st January 1919, Sasebo Naval Arsenal, as completed

[desert agate]

Oh right lmao

[frigid karma]

In an alternate universe, the iowa turret explosion leads to hybrid iowa

Discuss

[manic latch]

https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/boeing-new-bwb-stealthy-tanker

[frail haven]

So aparently from what I have heard the Italian Navy in WW2 was better then the Kreigsmarine.

Can someone show me how much better they are if its true and if it isn't true can someone show me how the other person is lying to me?

[manic latch]

@ivory ridge @chilly osprey

[lime belfry]

I mean almost every major faction in WW2 had a better Navy than the Kriegmarine, minus Soviet

I would dare to say Canada and Australia had a more impactful navy than Kriegmarine would ever be in any alternative reality or "if" you can think of

[lime belfry]

the combined industry might of the Allies pumped out supply ships to Britain faster than the U boat force can sink

and if a Navy measurement of being powerful is purely based on that one time they managed to sink a modernized WW1 battlecruiser with 1 shot

and bullying poorly armed supply convoys for 3 years before some dudes invented ASW technology

then it's a pretty low bar

[manic latch]

[shut wren]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/514333567195807754/1067992322211582013/gluessex_0000.gif

[lime belfry]

wonder if WW3 happened, what gonna be the META of naval battle

people nowaday with their missiles and what not

[shut wren]

Lets hope we never find out

[desert agate]

LRASM

Without any doubt or exaggeration the best anti-shipping missile on the planet

And nothing really even comes close

And In terms of surface launched ordinance LRASM-SL is in development and the NSM is very much on the way

[lime belfry]

well human ought to find that out someday

call me a doomer but when earth has no war is when human ceases to exist

[shut wren]

If yall gon find out do it in a regional conflict

[lime belfry]

aircrafts are just too OP

it gonna be the META forever unless people came up with a weapon that just disable aircraft electronic or something

like EMP, but minus the nuke

[shut wren]

use a SAM or something

[desert agate]

SAMs are all well and good until the missile coming at you was launched by a stealth aircraft from outside your detection range, is stealthy itself and sea skims

[lime belfry]

SAM or any large ground to air missiles have been proven to be useless or very vulnerable to Drones in the recent wars

a lot of the footage showed the crew, the missiles or just about anything related to it getting domed by a suicide drone

[shut wren]

I dunno

Yeet some shit at the planes or something

[desert agate]

Yeah that's not exactly helpful in a naval context

[lime belfry]

maybe in 50 years

[shut wren]

Yeet some shit at the Enemy ships

[lime belfry]

aircraft carrier gonna be renamed to drone carriers

which honestly sounds way cooler

CVD

Instead of u know, CV and CVL

[shut wren]

or CVN

nuclear carriers

[lime belfry]

because again, the only downside of drones right now is it operational range

[desert agate]

And latency

[lime belfry]

no doubt some genius out there is designing full size drones that carry tons of arnament

and thinking of putting them all in a carrier

[shut wren]

we invented drones that carry drones

Well not invented

but made

[desert agate]

The Turks are already making a drone carrier

[lime belfry]

u mean u borrowed

[desert agate]

Because they lost F-35

[lime belfry]

because training a pilot is too expensive

but a gamer ? literally free

and even if somehow the enemy blew up the command center

[shut wren]

Gotta enlist em

[lime belfry]

losing some incel gamers is barely a loss

so drone is just a cheaper alternative

it just has 2 weakness that is range and signal right now

[desert agate]

They really arent

[lime belfry]

but again, maybe some dudes have already come up with the solution as we speak

[desert agate]

And command centres are vital nexus' of radio communication and command facilities on military bases

You cannot communicate with a Global Hawk that's almost on the other side of the planet without some intense comms facilities

[shut wren]

You need em global bases

[desert agate]

Losing one is a critical loss of a vital and expensive investment that cannot be easily replaced

[shut wren]

It takes us like 5 years to build some random house

[frail haven]

I see

[lime belfry]

but ngl, those budget European cities in China are kinda epic

if people actually live in them

[shut wren]

yep

[lime belfry]

but the architecture is very nice

[shut wren]

I meant us as in the US

[ivory ridge]

actual cope carrier tbh

[lime belfry]

almost feel like the real place u know

[shut wren]

I know

[lime belfry]

oh I thought u mean your home country

[shut wren]

They build shit fast in china

[lime belfry]

Not every country has the luxury to use a carrier

let alone build one

or spend the budget to keep one

[shut wren]

We had a rough start

as in china

[lime belfry]

the thing is China first and second carriers

are based on a Soviet carrier

and the Soviet carrier is nothing but a glorified smoke screen dispenser in the Russian navy rn

[shut wren]

chinas first carrier is a soviet carrier

[lime belfry]

so I think the fact China managed to improve that somehow

is a feat of engineering

[shut wren]

We flattened the incline

[lime belfry]

because like damn not even WW2 carrier has that smoke ability

[shut wren]

the jump ski

and we straped some electromag launchers

[lime belfry]

but u know, a carrier is still a carrier

in a world where 99% of the countries only have glorified patrol boats

having carrier is huge

[shut wren]

I would say like 90%

some countries buy the big shit

[lime belfry]

we can definitely skip like the entire SEA nations

and Africa

ok maybe 95%

[shut wren]

thailand has some 071 landing docks from china

and pakistan has a few 052ds

IIRC

[lime belfry]

u mean the Type 052 ?

but I thought they only made 2

[shut wren]

there are types of 052s

[lime belfry]

damn

[shut wren]

normal and 052D

and a export for pakistan

[lime belfry]

the Type 56 syndrome !!!

[shut wren]

let me check real quick

[lime belfry]

if a Chinese soldier exists, he has something named or based after a Type 56

[shut wren]

052c and D variants lmao

They have a 052DL for the big choppa

[lime belfry]

seaplane getting replaced by chopper, what a waste

I still think seaplane is probably the coolest aesthetic looking aircraft ever

[shut wren]

We replaced the Z-9 with the Z-20 for like 5 of them

[ivory ridge]

Indonesia has the 10th biggest navy in the world

[shut wren]

Tonnage?

[ivory ridge]

yes

[lime belfry]

obviously

but if they are anywhere the 10th most powerful navy in the world the South China Sea would be looking kinda hot rn

I mean it is already hot by nature

[shut wren]

He said tonnage

[lime belfry]

yes that what I just said

[manic latch]

Phoenix's list

[lime belfry]

I really love the Japanese Navy flag tbh

surprised they were allowed to not change that

[manic latch]

IJN flag ye

[shut wren]

was'nt USN 4 million tons?

since when did they drop 3 million tons of stuff

[manic latch]

Look at the colors

[shut wren]

China gotta pump their numbers up

[lime belfry]

gonna be a long way

USN just outexperience and out produce any navy

the US is so rich they have 2 biggest air force in the world

USAF and USN

[shut wren]

But we building em ships fast

[manic latch]

US does having production issues currently

[shut wren]

fr

Hard to build 10 carriers at once

[manic latch]

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2022/05/18/navy-says-it-will-lose-millions-by-not-committing-to-10-destroyers-in-upcoming-contract/

[manic latch]

Pfft they aren't doing 10 at once

[shut wren]

6 or something

[manic latch]

2 Geralds are under construction right now

[shut wren]

I forgot

they want to replace nimizs class with ford

[manic latch]

Yes

[chilly osprey]

I'm just going to note

SAMs do very well against drones

very well

It's just that if you set your air defense incompetently, you get slapped hard by air attacks

And not many nations are actually good at SEAD operations and dealing with prepared air defenses

[manic latch]

South Korea drone accident

[shut wren]

but SAMs are too expensive to use on cheap sucide drones

[chilly osprey]

Recent conflicts have made this very clear

[lime belfry]

Maybe it time to bring back gigachad AAA

[chilly osprey]

A) This is what SHORAD with cheap missiles and guns are for
B) That is not how the math works. The cost of the SAM doesn't matter, it's that you're not paying the cost of loosing whatever the drone is trying to hit.

[lime belfry]

Instead of virgin SAM

[chilly osprey]

Trading a $2 million SAM to take out a $500,000 subsonic AShM is worth it to protect a $2bn destroyer

[manic latch]

Abrams X did had autocannon on top. Next Abrams will likely have that. Or should

[chilly osprey]

But, just to look at a recent conflict that isn't going to be named

MALE type drones were only useful in the strike role for the first three days

And then could only be used for ISR afterwards

[tough quail]

pretty much everyone that matters for tank development has been fiddling around with slapping autocannons on MBTs lately

[chilly osprey]

Because the invading army, idk who that could be, actually got their air defense reasonably organized after the first three days

And the invaded country - who knows who that could be - just kept releasing footage from the first few days for months afterwards, creating the perception in the public eye that the drones were still being used for strikes months after the war started.

Setting aside that example

[tough quail]

wait is that a thing

[manic latch]

Is this called internet victory or media victory

Since it's a new concept. Everyone has cameras or wifi now

[ivory ridge]

i mean yes and no

[tough quail]

i've been keeping my exposure to that show to a minimum so i've just heard the full bore drone strike wank the whole time

[ivory ridge]

there is clearly footage from later events

[chilly osprey]

TB-2's were used against for strike during a later offensive, when a limited SEAD capability appeared for the invaded country

[manic latch]

Tho Phoneix is right about Bayraktars suddenly going ghost mode after 1 week despite all the attention their camera footages ere getting

Bruh the timing

[chilly osprey]

But other than that it was really just the first three days

Anywho, Libya is actually another good example

The GNA's TB-2's were dropping like flies against LNA air defense until the Turks took over the air operations, because they were far more competent about managing the EW spectrum

After some harsh experiences in Syria

And then entirely turned the tide against the LNA, and started farming Buk kills like no tomorrow

[manic latch]

Tho one argument I see about TB-2s are they are superior because of their cheap price over reaper etc

[chilly osprey]

War isn't rock paper scissors, it's about who's combat system as a whole is more effective

[tough quail]

including said people operating that system as part of it

please do not do an [invading army]

or you will make me sad and kill the cells in my brain

[chilly osprey]

I mean, if you're comparing it to an MQ-9, it's just apples to oranges

TB-2 is a MALE, MQ-9 is a HALE - far larger and with a vastly greater payload.
MQ-1 Predator is more in the TB-2's class.

[manic latch]

I'm wondering more about tanks lately

It goes like X tank bad Y tank good
But when Y tank explodes they will go "because it wasn't supported" which shouldn't also applied to X tank then?

[shut wren]

[chilly osprey]

I mean, yeah, this applies to MBTs across the board

Use them properly or get punished

[shut wren]

Some mbts have different systems n stuff

[tough quail]

a lot of tank arguments comes down to rivet counting and tribalism, with actual like useful comparisons being rare unless you're talking with pals

[chilly osprey]

Certainly some MBTs are much better than others

[tough quail]

not really as bad as jets but its a thing

[chilly osprey]

But the various conflicts in the Middle East have made it crystal clear that actually using them properly - which includes with infantry support - is key to using them effectively.

[tough quail]

from my experience only the cool and good navies can get compared to each other properly without usually turning into a smear campaign every five seconds

[manic latch]

Which lately creates "tank is dead" arguments since how much "help" they need now to survive compared to much older times

[chilly osprey]

Old Soviet tanks, M1 Abrams, or Leopard 2's get BTFO'd just as badly if some idiots decide to drive them around a city with no infantry support of their own

[chilly osprey]

It was the exact same dynamic in WWII

This has ALWAYS been true of using armor

[shut wren]

Why cant we just strap more shit on the top armor

[manic latch]

ERA?

[chilly osprey]

Anti-tank weaponry, artillery or infantry, existed back in WWI too even

[shut wren]

I meant top armor

the top

[tough quail]

this is why zhukov/the us in general had a very useful doctrine for taking cities in ww2

[shut wren]

the roof of the tank

[chilly osprey]

Because that shit's heavy

[tough quail]

just shell the fucking place from dusk til dawn so there's nothing left to shoot at the tanks inside anyway

[shut wren]

Soviet ww2 doctrine 101

[manic latch]

"Artillery is God of War" -Stalin

[tough quail]

cant dunk a HEAT warhead into a tanks roof from a balcony is balconies no longer exist

[chilly osprey]

But, yeah, there's a reason why an armored or mechanized brigade is a terrifying force on the battlefield, but an unsupported tank can get KO'd by grandpappy with an NLAW

[shut wren]

so basically we yeet shit at the enemy fortifcation untill there are no fortications left

[manic latch]

How they stop the NLAW however. Fire at the position of holder? Or scare him away?

[tough quail]

flanking with goofy IFVs and APCs is also really something you do not want to happen to your tanks, even if they're not carrying missiles at all

[chilly osprey]

Have fun getting close enough to be effective when infantry is properly screening for the tank

[manic latch]

Ah it's the range of the weapon

[tough quail]

that video of a t-72 getting dunked by a BTR from the side is basically a warning to the entire world

because, uh, that's the tank in service with the best side armor out of the bunch by a wide margin

(excluding other soviet stuff i cant be bothered to check which is slightly thicker than the others)

[manic latch]

War thunder was true after all

[tough quail]

yeah thats just an actual thing

everything from an abrams to a t-90m to a k2 will get reamed by autocannons from the side

[manic latch]

3000 of these to any army

[shut wren]

Mg the ammo box

[chilly osprey]

The real reason the Soviets never tried seven days to the Rhine

[tough quail]

[current conflict] degrades into [invading] kornet jeeps jousting with [invaded] bushmaster and bofors jeeps

now this is armored warfare

[tough quail]

WE DO BATTLE

[shut wren]

I got this thingy

[chilly osprey]

Anywho, to get back to this.

'It depends!'

At the start of WWII the Kriegsmarine was about half the size of the Regia Marina, which itself was the 4th or 5th largest navy in the world. The two navies had very different missions, and played very different roles in the war. The KM was able to focus mostly on raiding Allied convoy traffic to Europe or to the USSR, with relatively little traffic to defend. On the other hand, the RM's primary mission was to defend Italy's Mediterranean sea lanes, with which is supplied outlying islands (Sardinia, Sicily) as well as forces in the Balkans, Aegean Islands, and most famously, North Africa. As a secondary mission, they were also trying to attack Allied shipping lanes.

In general, the RM's surface fleet was more capable than that the KM, being both larger and also supplied with somewhat more reliable designs - ex, you could not have had most German destroyers accumulate the kind of mileage/operational rates of Italian destroyers during the war. They had enough trouble with the relatively limited activity they had in Northern Europe (the exception would be ZG3, which was a Greek destroyer they captured and used in the Mediterranean). They were able to keep the sea lanes to North Africa open until late 1942, when the Axis position in North Africa began to collapse due to vastly superior Allied resources and the weight of what was now far superior Allied airpower. They were, however, able to keep the core of their fleet intact up until the final invasion of Italy, and thus after the armistice were able to bring a substantial force over to the Allied side. This included their competence in special forces operations, which in the underwater realm were considerably in advance of the British.

That said, the Germans did have some technological edges, mainly in radar and sonar technologies, and their submarine fleet was certainly much more capable, especially given how large it grew during the war (but also very much down to better submarine design and doctrine).

That said, while the Germans were waging a large submarine campaign in the Atlantic, they could not really create a viable surface threat to the Allies by themselves - they were only a threat so long as the British were primarily tied down by the largest surface threat in Europe, which remained the RM up until September 1943.

[shut wren]

To be fair The allies could have gone the other way to the USSR

[eternal veldt]

ZG3 - Sirene's summoning call

[chilly osprey]

And by late 1943 the KM's surface fleet was mostly depleted and after Scharnhorst went down in '43 that was kind of its last gasp as an offensive force

[chilly osprey]

The mostly did, actually

The vast majority of lend-lease shipments went across the Pacific to Vladivostok

And were then shipped west

[shut wren]

and to be fair to the USSR,they got yeeted by the wehrmacht in 41 and lost a bunch of their good ports,and most ship building steel went to building tanks

[chilly osprey]

I mean, they really weren't part of the discussion above

But frankly even without the German invasion, they needed another 10 years to get the point of having a capable navy

Their battleship program was implemented far too soon

[tough quail]

they got on the cruiser ball pretty fast with the chappy's tbf

which imo is more important

the bb program is a dickmeasuring contest

[shut wren]

BBs got useless once them carriers appeared

[chilly osprey]

[tough quail]

much more complicated topic than that

[chilly osprey]

Battleships were still quite relevant even with WWII carrier aviation

Especially in the European theater

[chilly osprey]

Certainly at the time it was

[tough quail]

people conflate battleship usefulness with the IJN ceasing to exist in 1944

[shut wren]

Im more a tank mf

not a big fan of boats

[tough quail]

which has far more to do with japan fighting an entire continent

[chilly osprey]

But they really needed to be able to complete the cruiser program before the industry was ready to move on to the battleships

[tough quail]

aye

[chilly osprey]

Very much so. The lopsided nature of the Pacific in 1944 is down to the sheer mass of striking power and technical superiority the USN had, against a Japan who no longer had the ability to match the US in the air in the quality of its pilots, or create effective ship-based air defense with the tools at their disposal.

[tough quail]

[frail haven]

hmmmmm

[chilly osprey]

Because when you reverse who is attacking who - you have the IJN and IJA having such a hard time attacking US fleet air defenses that they have to resort to attack methods like the kamikaze just to do damage with aircraft they're likely to loose anyways

[eternal veldt]

I think Ten-Go, Leyte in the Pacific Centre does leave a remarkable impression

and not helped by...unfortunately, Bismarck

[tough quail]

it also feeds back in nicely to my ultimate ww2 peeve

[eternal veldt]

something something Ark Royal something something swordfish

[tough quail]

japan were idiots for still investing too much into battleships!!!!!

[chilly osprey]

Carriers didn't so much kill the battleship as the lack of battleships for NATO to have to worry about after the defeat of the Axis killed any reason for NATO to maintain significant battleship fleets.

[eternal veldt]

Which, I cannot deny, did cripple/damage almost every European Navy's BBs at some point bar the soviets

[tough quail]

highest percentage of total construction dedicated to carriers of any navy on the planet

please

tell me more about how you understand the pacific war

[eternal veldt]

It's more that

[shut wren]

I dont understand it

[chilly osprey]

And once the Soviet navy was able to save itself from Stalin's idiocy, they transitioned to a navy reliant on cruise missiles and submarines to defend themselves, not battleships. And over-the-horizon warfare that resulted from that killed any reason to have battleships.

[eternal veldt]

Japan invests so much on capital ships

rather than escort vessels

[tough quail]

no, no

everyone who says that means more carriers

it drives me up the fucking wall

[eternal veldt]

🤦‍♂️

Please no bulli Kaibokans

[tough quail]

ends war with 3 extra fleet carriers with nothing to put in them

and 3 more almost done

NO

BUILD MORE CARRIERS

MOOOOOOOOOOOREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[eternal veldt]

Horse, they shelved the 3 that were almost done

[chilly osprey]

I mean, perfect example is that they really didn't have the spare pilots even in 1941

[eternal veldt]

They shelved them.because.no.pilots.

Jun'you's sitting with her fat arse in Kure because she has no aviators left.

[chilly osprey]

If you replace Yamato and Musashi with two more Shokaku's, you can't fill them with pilots and aircraft, unless you start scrapping other carriers early

[tough quail]

but yes build more kaibokans

they're cute and very good

[eternal veldt]

She's literally fucking camouflaged up

[shut wren]

I wonder why

[eternal veldt]

with nets and everything

gud jobu desu

[chilly osprey]

Very selective pilot training programs that limited the number of navy pilots actually being commissioned, as well as their volume of aircraft production.

[eternal veldt]

But then again, opting out of capital ship construction isn't exactly an option either, I think

[chilly osprey]

And frankly it would have been stupid not to build new battleships starting in 1937 when the British and Americans are starting to go balls to the walls on that too

[eternal veldt]

especially since the US industry started spinning up to speed

Just don't start the war ™️

to be honest, I think Deutschland showing up is where the domino started

France panicked, Dunkerque was made

[tough quail]

people kind of forget the yamatos are effectively a budget option compared to what the west is doing

[eternal veldt]

we know the rest from that point

[tough quail]

five big battleships is cheaper, faster to build and less dockyard intensive than 8+ treaty BBs

[chilly osprey]

I mean, it also just came down to infrastructure limits

[eternal veldt]

Well, higher quality, at least

[tough quail]

yeah

[chilly osprey]

They could only build four capital ships at a time

[eternal veldt]

Yamato needed whole new infrastructure to service them

[tough quail]

if you think about it in full context it makes plenty of sense

[eternal veldt]

hence why Shinaner's launch was such a disaster

nobody used that drydock before, they're built specifically for the Yamatos

[chilly osprey]

It was a perfectly rational plan, even if I personally don't like the design of the Yamato's

[eternal veldt]

Or you can sniff the copium and do the 8-8 fleet again

and watch your entire nation die from economic collapse

don't even need the US to do it for you this time 😎

[chilly osprey]

Yesn't, to a degree. The MN definitely sold the government on 'because Deutschland', but the navy was fully intending on building itself a new capital ship in the early 1930s regardless.

[manic latch]

So I %100 remember this from Drach

But is it true through the end Italy was having hard time to operate Littorios at same time because of oil?

[eternal veldt]

They lost France, afterall, so they can use that tonnage up.

fuck me, I cannot do names tonight

[chilly osprey]

In late 1942, yes. They had to choose between the battleships or keeping the convoys running, so the convoys easily won that argument.

[manic latch]

[chilly osprey]

They were effectively inactive from December 1942 to March 1943

At which point the effective end of convoy traffic to North Africa meant the fleet actually finally had enough fuel for its needs, and the battleships resumed training activities

Duilio and Andrea Doria were actually laid up for even longer from June 1942 to June 1943 - and Giulio Cesare had been reduced to a training ship back in February 1942, so she had to flee from Pola during the armistice.

[alpine onyx]

To add to that (all correct), it also coincided with the overall cracking of codes which contributed to the downfall of the KM as a surface force. Until mid to late 1943 they managed to maintain a very decent balance of successes vs losses against the RN, which still had much better numbers to throw against them (so it was in the end a losing battle, but an expected one when you trade 1:1 against a larger opponent). With cracking of the codes (which allowed pin point interception of German fleets), the RN getting their hands free to focus on the Baltic and Northern Seas and the Germans running out of ships this somewhat even contest turned ugly rapidly.

Would kinda TL;DR the KM with "made what little they could do in their situation, and the outcome was never at doubt"

[manic latch]

Actually hold up

With the hindsight of this

Wouldn't be better for Italy to have few larger BBs than more Littorios?

If fuel would become this problematic

[chilly osprey]

That sort of depends on if they're more fuel hungry or not. And having fewer big BBs may mean you lack enough battleships to be effective.

Really the core issue is that there's only so much you, as a navy, can do to prepare for a war where you're cut off from your fuel supplies - especially when the major source you were expected to supplement your reserves (your fields in Romania) are being vacuumed up by your ally.

[manic latch]

[chilly osprey]

Something, something, this is why your government is supposed to avoid going to war with nations that can cut off all your access to fuel oil, if you have to fight a long war

Because, to be fair

Their pre-war fuel reserves did last them more than a year (June 1940 to September 1941, or about 16 months)

[delicate beacon]

Why to internet wehrbs have more info than German archives

[chilly osprey]

They just could not import enough fuel after that point to sustain operations at the same pace as earlier in the war, particularly with the constant drain of convoy traffic - the navy's stocks were drained by both the escort ships assigned, but also the merchant ships. And any allied traffic.

General situation of fuel imports and consumptions over the course of the war, by year;

And then a specific breakdown of consumption by trimester/quarter;

If anything, what Italy desperately needed was to be able to build American turbine systems with double reduction gearing XD

Because that would have made their ships much more fuel efficient at cruising speeds

[delicate beacon]

Why do I have two german 88 SK C/35s, one with a 615mm round and one with 390mms.

[delicate beacon]

table

[deep apex]

New Mexico-class my beloved

[delicate beacon]

I'm confused. We have another spoon.

[spiral cedar]

Which is the big spoon

🥄

[desert agate]

no we have spon and spoon

[frigid karma]

What does spon stand for anyways

[deep apex]

The Regia Marina for all its misfortune fought bravely & was a threat to the Allies from its sheer size alone. Even at the time of the surrender, the main Italian fleet heading to Malta consisted of all 3 Littorios, 6 CLs & 8 modern DDs.

The Littorio's, for all their shortcomings, were in the end far more technologically advanced than the Queen Elizabeth-class BBs of the British Navy, which were renovated World War 1 BBs. Their top speed of 30 knots was worrisome as it would allow them to control engagements at range with the QEs and would leave them unreachable by nearly all capital ships minus CVs and the newest French BBs. Their engines were also quite reliable unlike those on German BBs.

The Italian CLs were also quite formidable: the later Montecuccoli and Duca D'Aosta subclasses of the Condottieri series had more than enough firepower to outgun even Tribal-class DDs beyond the range of the latter's guns, and had good speed to evade enemy CAs. Their designs, though sub-par compared to many Allied CLs, would remain superior over German CLs throughout the war.

Their CAs were also quite impressive. Though they didn't comply with the treaty, the Zaras were some of the finest of their type in the world at their commissioning and even in Italy's entry into the war. The Trentos, though lacking the armor the Zaras possessed, had speed that the Zaras sacrificed for armor and were faster than some British CLs. Once more, the designs of the Zaras were far better as they used less displacement than the Admiral Hippers' but still had 8 x 8 inch guns, similar speed, and thicker belt armor. Their engines most importantly were yet again superior as they did not suffer from poor design and did not breakdown with the frequency of the German ones.

Their sub fleet was larger than the Mediterranean and French fleet combined and could be a massive headache for Allied shipping lanes if left unchecked.

[delicate beacon]

Did you just compare the Littorios to the Queen Liz?

[frigid karma]

i mean, yea?

it is in a mediterranean context

when you talk about desert storm, you have to compare the abrams to the t-72s and not more modern tanks

[delicate beacon]

Yes but you don't use it for arguments on why they're advanced.

[frigid karma]

far more technologically advanced than

key word on than

it's a comparison

[delicate beacon]

Why compare them to the QE and not other treaty battleships

[frigid karma]

because the QEs are the ones they're facing?

[deep apex]

The QEs would've been their most likely adversary

The Nelsons, though capable of out-ranging the Littorios, could not compete with their speed

[frigid karma]

Also spoon wasn’t trying to make an argument on how advanced the littorios specifically are, but how effective the Italian navy was in its war impact compared to kms

[deep apex]

This

[frigid karma]

A comparison with the biscuits might be more fitting but since the discussion is about how impactful the Italians would’ve been

[desert agate]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/754162364718514226/773633395166937108/Don_Speedle.png

don speedle

spon deedle

[frigid karma]

Comparing them to their first adversaries would be appropriate

This clarifies nothing

Who the fuck is Don speedle

[desert agate]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/528197562998718474/782510613318467594/Spon_Deedle2.png

spon deedle

[frigid karma]

Hit are you hungover

[desert agate]

i am not

i am answering your question

[little venture]

Because there is merit in comparing a battleship to its most likely adversary

[delicate beacon]

I wouldn't compare ships to ships for impactfulness though.

[frigid karma]

You are raising more

[desert agate]

that is not my problem

[frigid karma]

You are the problem

[deep apex]

I'm talking about the Regia Marina not just the Littorios

[desert agate]

perhaps i am

perhaps indeed

[frigid karma]

Sang

If you’re talking about how impactful a navy can be, you need to discuss how effectively it can beat up its neighbors

And the Littorios could comfortably beat up the QEs

[delicate beacon]

Yes; effectiveness of a navy is more than just ships though.
Training, industry, ability to work as a cohesive unit

[frigid karma]

assuming warspite doesn’t eat 5 overpens from a Roma and then detonate her in return

Earn your trusty flags

[deep apex]

This is all on paper. I figured you'd figure this out

[desert agate]

the Italians successfully contested naval supremacy in the mediterranean for 3 years before a combination of overwhelming force, logistical failure and overall strategic paralysis neutralised their overall capability

they managed to effectively protect all convoys heading to the North African Theatre for the majority of the active combat in that area, until it was no longer economically viable for them to do so

[deep apex]

The Regia Marina maintained hold of the sea lanes to Africa all the way to 1942 when Allied resources finally started turning the tide.

The RN could call on 69 destroyers at the outbreak of war. They saw heavy combat from the Mediterranean to the sea off the horn of Africa, and therefore suffered heavy losses. They did, however, prove the Italians would not simply roll over without a fight, and that though Italian East Africa had fallen, Italy would remain a threat and that the road to Rome would be a long and bloody campaign.

[frigid karma]

@maiden citrus

we must avenge her

[frail haven]

Dam... the more you know

[lavish fable]

would be cool to see

[spring briar]

[deep apex]

Considering the Tribals were about the closest thing to the DDs they were supposed to face in the french Navy with the fuck off number of guns they had, I thought it would be the best comparison

[spring briar]

Still, CL’s vs DD’s is always questionable

Even when said DD’s are contre torpilleurs

[frigid karma]

Spoon, you could've brought up the CRs

[spring briar]

[deep apex]

Oh shit you're right

[strong plank]

well I mean

'better than the kriegsmarine' isn't exactly the highest of bars

[spring briar]

Regal!

[strong plank]

hello

[frigid karma]

when you're talking to a wider audience though who equates germany = omg so good, it's an important bar to clear

[delicate beacon]

Regal is new here

hi

[deep apex]

The later Duca D'Aostas and Abruzzis, with the Montecuccolis to a degree, were more capable in engaging enemy CLs than the German CLs

[spring briar]

Btw you know how germany was developing a 14” recoilless rifle yeah?
You know what the muzzle velocity was?

[frigid karma]

the speed at which the plane it's mounted to plummets to the ground?

[spring briar]

That’s

[frigid karma]

quite fast all things considered

[spring briar]

Speeding on the high way levels of speed

[frigid karma]

very fast indeed

I agree

[spring briar]

Without bankai

Wait mb

[frigid karma]

[spring briar]

I meant to say 150 mps

Still slow af but ye

[frigid karma]

wooo you want to convert to imperial woo

[spring briar]

3.6 times faster than 150 km/h

Still fodder tier speed

[frigid karma]

how well would the martini henry have been suited for trench conditions in ww1

as in, how vulnerable is it to mud, moisture, etc.

[spiral cedar]

The Littorios had a max gun range of a bit over 46k yards, as opposed to the Nelsons with around 38k yards.

Is it a practical difference? Not really. But the Nelsons did not "out-range" the Littorios.

[spring briar]

It’s a black powder single shot lever action

So alright as long as you keep it clean ish

It was used in colonies in all sorts of bad conditions so

[deep apex]

[spiral cedar]

The Littorios had slightly longer range than the Yamatos

Practical difference, no

[deep apex]

Oh shit I'm just remembering

You're right

[spring briar]

[delicate beacon]

[rapid junco]

Today i stumbled across a post about the Almirante Latorre in 1942
And then on the fact the US "Tried" to buy her just after Pearl Harbour
And then Professor Júlio César asked why that happened
Besides kind of praising the Chileans while kind of diminishing us

Honestly
I don't think any of the 5 South American Dreadnoughts were in condition to be sent abroad to fight
But this made re search Latorre's career
And then find out she was mothballed between 1933-1939
Only to be recommissioned to serve on Neutrality Patrols during WW2
Maybe that helped, i guess

[frigid karma]

houston ii

[spiral cedar]

Constructive target, visualized

[solid mango]

Torpe🅱️o go brrr

[spiral cedar]

I didn’t know such a low-res version of that image even existed

[solid mango]

Tis but a scratch yee

[spiral cedar]

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/dam/nhhc/research/library/online-reading-room/ships/wardamagereportno53/cl8123.jpg

[solid mango]

Thank yuo ver much

[spiral cedar]

Houston, which before the first torpedo hit displaced 13,900 tons, displaced 20,900 tons after the first torpedo hit, indicating she took on 7000 tons of seawater as a result of all four of her main machinery spaces flooding. Damage control dewatering efforts managed to reduce this to 19,200 tons before she took her second torpedo hit 2 days later, which increased displacement to 20,300 tons but did not threaten her survival.

For comparison, the German battlecruiser Seydlitz, which famously was battered severely at the Battle of Jutland and only just managed to limp into port, took on about 5300 tons of seawater—on a ship about double Houston’s displacement.

Despite the damage, the emergency diesel generators continued to provide for the needs of the damage control parties aboard, and even kept the ice cream machine running:

41. For the 500 officers and men remaining on board, it was necessary to provide drinking water, messing arrangements and toilet facilities. Morale aboard was exceedingly high and the Captain was able to send a report to the Task Group Commander that breakfast had consisted of "apple pie and ice cream," no meal having been served since noon of the previous day. Drinking water was available in the three battle dressing station gravity tanks which were full when the ship was hit. These tanks were replenished periodically with fresh water ballast from A-507-V, A-508-V and A-901-V to A-908-V inclusive. This fresh water was by ordinary standards brackish and distasteful, but through careful rationing for cooking and drinking purposes it was adequate for the two-week passage to Ulithi; no additional fresh water was taken on board. Flushing water was provided by a bucket brigade, as insufficient power was available to operate the flushing pump en route to Ulithi. Bathing took place on the main deck with the assistance of a gasoline handy-billy and a fog spray nozzle. Casualty power from the casualty power generators was rigged to the ice machine and galley and later a crew's mess was set up on the main deck aft. An officer's mess was organized on the communication deck amidships. It was evident, however, that 500 men could not be properly cared for over an extended period with the facilities then available on board.

[solid mango]

Tow the bote

[eternal veldt]

got two fishy ones today, allegedly Akagi on fire after Dick Best did his run, no confirmed sources

and apparently a Takao/Atago postcard.

[spiral cedar]

I feel like that explosion is photoshopped from a different explosion

[eternal veldt]

That's what I thought. Looks like something closer to Essex's explosion shopped on.

It's not an exact match either.

bleh, have a chonker instead.

[spiral cedar]

Same, just mirrored

I knew I recognized that explosion from somewhere

[eternal veldt]

yea, seascape is a match as well.

so poor photoshop. Figured it's odd that Akagi was photoed there and then, and only popping up just now.

[spiral cedar]

I know people sometimes make those images for AARs of wargames

And it just gets copy pasted elsewhere

[maiden citrus]

chonker spotted

[eternal veldt]

just needs some good snipping like this one

[ivory ridge]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/430896709812486154/1046163136702599198/live_soppy_reaction.gif

[ivory ridge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/684724172282265628/847474416338206741/iu.png

[spiral cedar]

Who dat

https://youtu.be/0YtaUsg-E44

[ivory ridge]

the protagonist of Atelier Sophie

[spiral cedar]

https://youtu.be/AJOTjiDAi_g

[manic latch]

Didn't Nelson also

Had less range than the British 381mm

Because of the elevation angle limitations

[maiden citrus]

I mean I read that while half asleep in bed, waking up and somehow got the nelsons could not compete with qe speed and even in that state I was sussed out

reread it later and my brain computed it properly

[lime belfry]

French gunboat design in Indochina

[chilly osprey]

Also, since I didn't see the latter part of the discussion yesterday - I would note that while QE's did basically make up the strength of the British Mediterranean Fleet out in Alexandria, due to infrastructure limits (the post could not accommodate any of the larger British battleships, though there were some studies into whether the Nelson's could be based there or not) - whenever the British thought they were going to have to fight a Littorio in operations in the Western Mediterranean, they would usually bring both Nelson's along if available, or KGVs. Ex, the heavy covering force for Operational Halberd in 1941 was Nelson, Rodney, and PoW. DoY was part of the force assigned to cover against Axis battleship intervention during the Torch landings, for example, and KGV and Howe were used during Husky.

Hood was also frequently assigned to Force H prior to her loss in at the Denmark Strait

[eternal veldt]

Renown herself was also nearly engaged with the Littorios at Spartivento

and to be honest, the Cavour and Duilio classes should also be accounted for in the assessment of the Regia Marina, even though they likely would not stand up well against QEs.

[chilly osprey]

Certainly

I mean, Cavour and Cesare were the Italian battleship strength for the whole summer of 1940

[lime belfry]

British out here cucking themselves by following the treaty too strictly

[chilly osprey]

Littorio, Vittorio Veneto, and Duilio were still working up and Andrea Doria was still fitting out

[lime belfry]

One thing i dont understand is that why 3/4 QE class in AL are elite

But Seydlizt is SSR

[alpine onyx]

Seydlitz is bae

[lime belfry]

QE were very modern for WW1 and even by WW2 they still packed a punch with upgrades

[alpine onyx]

Eh, the rating seems to be influenced by their service as well, and the impact they had

[eternal veldt]

because history means nothing to rarity in this game

as proven multiple times

[alpine onyx]

Arizona is higher up than Pennsylvania, despite both being of the exact same design and latter even getting a substancial modernization that Arizona could not receive due to her premature loss

[eternal veldt]

Ships with mediocre service or impact are given high tier ratings

Nevada
Common

[alpine onyx]

Mikasa is gold

[eternal veldt]

And don't forget the garbage armour values

[alpine onyx]

[eternal veldt]

Wichita
Light Armour

Trento and Trieste
Light Armour

[alpine onyx]

Ägir: heavy armor
Scharnhorst: light armor

mmmmm yes

[eternal veldt]

mmm yes

definitely light armour compared to the Duquesnes

Also, a BB that has 760 tons laid down, or worse, 40 tons

Damn, definitely UR material

Behold, the marvel of shipbuilding!

[lime belfry]

People hate QE class Conspiracy

[eternal veldt]

The QE class suffered from Day 1 of launch

[alpine onyx]

Behold, another UR ship

[eternal veldt]

QE and Valiant are both in their WW1 configuration

Meanwhile, Warspite is in her WW2 configuration, because consistency is for losers

[ivory ridge]

medium not light

[eternal veldt]

As for the treatment of the Regia Marina in AL, I'm sure Unde will be more than happy to throw a few gamer words about it

[alpine onyx]

oh apologies, been a long while since I had this game open

[ivory ridge]

[eternal veldt]

as expected of a canned coal fan

Damn, it's been a long time

Last time I touched the game was to cheese my way to get Atlanta

[alpine onyx]

hmm.... does this look like a gold-rated CL?

[eternal veldt]

No no no Sirene

It's that one, and the later one combined into one

Buy one, get two free

[alpine onyx]

.... wat?

[eternal veldt]

Yes

[lime belfry]

People get piss by Vanguard being UR but at least she laser accurate

[eternal veldt]

The AL version depicts both the Dresden class AND The Königsberg together as a singular entity, albeit as twins in the artwork

I wish I was fucking joking

[alpine onyx]

oh that

I know

that's Pamiat tho

[eternal veldt]

Oh. Bad with triple funnels, I suppose. My bad.

[lime belfry]

Emden being SSR is a waste because she is nowhere near top 15 best CL anyway

[alpine onyx]

should have Karlsruhe up there

[lime belfry]

At this point rarity rate are just color

[alpine onyx]

but oh well

my bias is not determining these ranks

[eternal veldt]

But yea, lots of coping

Especially over the Chinese

[lime belfry]

Leander being common is almost as good as 70% of all Elite CL

[eternal veldt]

Vanguard should be laser accurate, given her advanced firing systems and the benefit of post-war completion

[lime belfry]

She has thighest hit stats in the game on the time of her release

[eternal veldt]

Her main issue is literally being an emergency Lion derivative and using Courageous and Glorious' guns

[lime belfry]

Not counting warspite retro

[eternal veldt]

Still not too much of a fan of her Queen Anne's compared to the QE/Warspites, but eh, wind funnel tests proved its for the best

[lime belfry]

QE class needs more retro

AL, do something

stop giving retro to ship that doesnt get a retro

or an aug

anything

at this point they are just too lazy to fund a retro art

so aug is fine

[alpine onyx]

you will get a [insert ship name] II

and you will be happy

[lime belfry]

Houston II

[ivory ridge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1002399391488946186.gif?size=96&quality=lossless

[lime belfry]

blonde pls

[desert agate]

Kongo retrofits

Please

Please...

[eternal veldt]

Granted, the Kongous become torpedo CBs

[lime belfry]

hmm Lexington II turning her into an adult

sounds like a win

[desert agate]

So long as there's an art improvement

[desert agate]

I just want more skins for my girls

[eternal veldt]

You will take this with you to the grave

[desert agate]

I will send it to other servers

[eternal veldt]

No don't

it's fake

[lime belfry]

honestly the only thing sounds remotely accurate is the gear

what good irl is good in game

with a few minor exception

[alpine onyx]

aha

ahahaha

you serious?

[desert agate]

I will spread misinformation on the internet

[lime belfry]

for some reasons Helldiver is best in slots for years

[eternal veldt]

Littorio's 381mm being absolutely dogshit because Operation Gavdos having a small woopsie

Italian SAP shells

[alpine onyx]

Unless one blindly believes a certain YT historian, there is no world in which the 37mm C30 is even within reach of the 37mm M42

[lime belfry]

more to do with the fact enemy medium armor in game has weird modification

and SAP ammo in the game also has weird dmg mod

[eternal veldt]

Also, the Type 91/1 shells are just memes

[alpine onyx]

USN 14in triple turret is... blue? Whatever that means

[eternal veldt]

"Muh diving shell with ridiculous shell delay"

[alpine onyx]

German surface torpedo launchers get homing torps

because... ehm for what reason again?

[desert agate]

Remember kids level up the Gold IJN 14in gun it's a great weapon

[lime belfry]

cus it magnetic duhhh

[desert agate]

But only when you get it to +13

[lime belfry]

and they have to buff Iron Blood

because otherwise people cry about it

[desert agate]

Don't bother putting it on your ships until it gets +13

[alpine onyx]

magnetic?

[eternal veldt]

Also, I'll say it again

[lime belfry]

like why is the Stuka homing ?

[eternal veldt]

3/4 of the UR gear in game are likely total dogshit

[desert agate]

Then watch the dps come in

[alpine onyx]

The homing torps were only used by uboats

[lime belfry]

guided by Hans Rudel himself

[eternal veldt]

so much so they're canned entirely

[lime belfry]

see ? because half the UR gears dont exist u can make stats up

[eternal veldt]

Quad 152: Canned because muzzle blast interference
Triple 234: Mount problem
Tenrai: Not even a naval version made, just canned early onwards
18" guns: Just simply irrelevant after the 16"/50 Mark 7 came into existence + WG tomfuckery

[lime belfry]

it also because WOWS influence AL when it comes to PR design somehow

but then since no stats exist except speculation

it can be anything u want

[eternal veldt]

Doesn't matter, it doesn't make the statement IRL gear good = gear good in AL any more true

[lime belfry]

ahhh yes

too focus on Bofor

[eternal veldt]

The shielded 25mm are also just a meme

[lime belfry]

forgot other stuff

[eternal veldt]

But hey, gold gear, one of the best AA

[alpine onyx]

[lime belfry]

shielded 25mm ?

[eternal veldt]

"Yamato's guns are going to kill our AA gunners, what do"

[alpine onyx]

before shielded 25mm gets gold, the shielded German 20mm quad deserves gold

[lime belfry]

lol it is nowhere near one of the best AA in the game

[eternal veldt]

"Just put a blast shield around them, idk"

[lime belfry]

not even top 5

not even top 7 best in slot

[alpine onyx]

because that gun was at least worth it to have around

[eternal veldt]

If you want to argue meta, that's the other channel, as it stands, it's gold and I've seen people recommend it

[lime belfry]

people recommend it ????

waaaaaa

[eternal veldt]

oh, also can't forget the british 120mm gun on L and M

hoists that don't rotate with the mount

[lime belfry]

Six bofor, UR AA, roomba AA, STAAG, or 134mm AA FP

that the best 5

[eternal veldt]

incredible piece of British engineering, instant gold gear

[lime belfry]

and if u want 2 more